2026-10-27 - Town Council Meeting

03:41That's why I don't want

04:59We don't need that.

20:17We already had the drones. Yeah. APD has

20:19had a drone program for uh for a couple

20:21years and it's little.

20:34[clears throat] Well, there are today.

20:35And I guess I do it on paper or

20:37something.

26:00All right. Good evening everyone.

26:02Welcome to the Apex Town Council

26:04meeting. I will call the meeting to

26:05order for Tuesday, October 27th, 2026.

26:08And we'll get started with the pledge of

26:10allegiance. If you are able, please

26:12stand and join us.

26:17I pledge allegiance to the flag of the

26:20United States of America and to the

26:22republic for which it stands. One nation

26:25under God, indivisible, with liberty and

26:27justice for all.

26:32>> All right. Thank you everyone. We'll

26:33move now to our invocation tonight. What

26:35I would like to do is just

26:38speak about we have an election. Did

26:40y'all know that? Yeah, we have an

26:42election going on. And uh with so much

26:44going on with that, seemingly

26:47people are divided because people have

26:50different candidates they like to

26:51support and we all have that human

26:54nature to just be passionate behind the

26:57people that we think deserve to be in a

26:59seat. What I want to say as a leader of

27:01this community,

27:03we're all united. This is one community

27:08and sometimes we forget about that.

27:11It's good to just take the time and

27:14reflect on the things that matter,

27:17the blessings we have. And I want you to

27:20take about 30 seconds to reflect on the

27:24good things in life, the things that you

27:27appreciate.

27:29So, we're going to take a moment of

27:30peace as a part of our invocation

27:32tonight. So, take that time on your own.

27:34Thank you.

28:04Thank you so much.

28:07And I'll tell you two things that I'm

28:09thankful for. Family, this community,

28:13and the people that live in this

28:14community. So, thank you for joining us.

28:16I want to recognize Officer Perez for

28:18being here tonight providing security.

28:19Thank you so much.

28:21And we'll move now

28:24to the adoption of

28:26sorry we'll move now to announcements

28:28and petitions by the governor body. So

28:31we'll start with mayor prom.

28:33>> Uh thank you mayor. I have a couple

28:34things I wanted to bring to the

28:36attention of the board and the public

28:37tonight. The first um coming before us

28:40pretty soon I'm going to be bringing a

28:42resolution for an IT task force. It's

28:44something I talked about last year. And

28:46the idea uh for this is Apex currently

28:51spends I had the number here uh I think

28:53it's $4 million u a year on software

28:56licenses and it's growing like 20 to 30%

28:58a year and I think there's an

29:00opportunity uh where

29:02technology has gotten to the point where

29:04we can maybe bring some of this uh

29:06software in house. We can look for ways

29:09to to replace existing processes and and

29:12make things more efficient. And the idea

29:13behind the task force is some

29:14volunteers, some IT professionals in

29:16town might get together and uh and help

29:18make government more efficient. So

29:20that's a general idea be it'll be styled

29:22as a task force. It's not going to be a

29:24policym body. It would just be a force

29:27multiplier for our team and I imagine

29:29you guys are going to copy that soon and

29:30uh it'll be a descent agenda or or

29:32regular agenda some you prefer in the

29:35near future. Uh the second thing I want

29:37to bring to your attention is um

29:40at Arbor Day uh I had a conversation

29:42with Lauren and Kimberly from uh close

29:44to nature wildlife rehab center and they

29:47approached me and asked about a

29:49potential partnership with the town for

29:51a wildlife rehabilitation center

29:52somewhere located in town and uh I told

29:55her that sounded great and I'll bring it

29:57to the board uh which I'm now doing and

30:00um if there's no objection with you guys

30:02I'd like to refer this to our

30:03environmental committee and ask Lauren

30:05uh to come in and give a presentation of

30:07what she has in mind and uh staff can

30:09watch it and we can see if there's any

30:11opportunity to partner around uh around

30:13Apex.

30:16And the third thing uh to the mayor's

30:18point just to plug early voting is still

30:19going on. Um Apex is again I didn't

30:23didn't check today but the last time I

30:24checked we were the highest early voting

30:27site usage in the state again as we

30:28typically are. And uh I just want to

30:31thank so much the staff uh both the town

30:34staff who you was you know had to

30:36rearrange a little bit of of your uh

30:39workflows to deal with all the voters

30:40and I want to thank the board of

30:42election staff to help it go so smoothly

30:44and uh the residents who maybe have have

30:46dealt with a little inconvenience of

30:48having some programming this place for

30:50this but in Apex you know we feel very

30:52strongly it's important um and it's

30:55worth the time to make voting accessible

30:57and easy at the center of down and early

31:00voting wraps up this Saturday the 31st

31:03at uh wrote down 3 p.m. So if you

31:06haven't early voted yet, go to the

31:08community center until Saturday at 3 and

31:10then beyond that your last chance will

31:12be next Tuesday on election day.

31:14>> That's all. Thank you, Mayor.

31:15>> All right. Thank you so much, uh Council

31:16Member Gray.

31:18>> Thank you, Mayor, and good evening to

31:20everyone. Want to say thank you all for

31:23being here today. Um just a couple of

31:25things I want to follow up on. Uh last

31:27Thursday we had a uh nice conversation

31:30about ALPR. I want to say thank you to

31:32everybody who was here. I always

31:34appreciate the comments. In fact, I got

31:36a lot of great notes, a lot of great

31:38information. Um uh

31:42poor Randy has already heard a lot of

31:44this [laughter]

31:46as I'm sure the rest of the staff has,

31:48but it's great. It's good to be able to

31:50get that dialogue, be able to have that

31:51information. Um definitely going to do

31:53it again um as we start to continue to

31:55refine this um you know we get a chance

31:58to talk about a lot of the things that

32:00are not only around ALPR but a lot of

32:02the public safety issues. So really

32:04appreciate the opportunity uh to have

32:06these town halls and really appreciate

32:08those who came in to participate. Um it

32:10it means uh I think we're going to have

32:13a better product as we're going through

32:14this entire process. Last thing I do

32:17want to make sure that we cover and uh I

32:19know this has already been mentioned

32:20once before, but I'll just say um we are

32:24in the middle of an election. So, uh you

32:26know, we've got we are fortunate enough

32:28to have an early voting site right in

32:30our town. Uh take full advantage of it,

32:32get out there, participate in democracy.

32:34Um it's it always means a great deal to

32:37be able to see a lot of people out there

32:38exercising their rights. Um particularly

32:41um you know as an old air force guy who

32:44helped you know a couple of nations kick

32:46off their electoral processes like

32:48Afghanistan and Iraq um it's really

32:51heartening to see us participating in

32:53this sort of process. So get out there

32:55and vote. Um I'll make an update later

32:58on our I like to call it the uh town's

33:02most boring committee governance um at

33:04the appropriate time.

33:07>> Thank you.

33:07>> All right. Thank you. All right. Council

33:09member Zerman.

33:10>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Uh I actually

33:12think that the committee is the most

33:13exciting [laughter]

33:16that's where the, you know, the rubber

33:18meets the road. Um

33:20but yeah, so uh I I also wanted to share

33:23that we had our inaugural uh committee

33:25meeting uh for the governance committee.

33:28Uh we do a readout uh on that a little

33:30bit later in the agenda. Um it's been

33:33said three times, I'll say it again. Uh

33:37we are in the middle of an election

33:38cycle. Uh the ballot is mighter than the

33:42bullet as some men wiser than me had at

33:45some point proclaimed. So please do not

33:48take these uh these privileges lightly

33:50and come out and vote. That's it for me.

33:54>> Thank you, Council Member Moo.

33:57>> Hi everyone. Good evening. Um I have two

34:01things to share. First, we um hosted the

34:07peak resilience,

34:09a community conversation to prevent on

34:13pre on suicide prevention and it went

34:16great. We had a really great turnout. We

34:21shared so much information

34:23about how to prevent suicide and also um

34:28provide the connections for the res uh

34:32for the residents to talk to our

34:35providers.

34:37I know some people um are asking

34:40questions and they need help. So if um I

34:45remember one gentleman at the meeting,

34:47he asked some question. I told him um he

34:51could reach out to me later. So if any

34:54of you would like to know more

34:56information, please um send me a email

35:00or you know talk to Alan. Yes. Or talk

35:04to Alan. Um we are you know providing

35:08resources and if you need help we are

35:11here to help. Another thing is

35:15voting right everyone we are still have

35:18we uh the early voting still going on

35:20and we have election day on November

35:233rd. Um I you know um gathered a big

35:27group of you know um people from our

35:30community went I think uh on Sunday yeah

35:35in the afternoon we went out and to

35:38vote. It's a you know it's a big s you

35:40know long line really really long line.

35:43So, please everyone just you um go vote.

35:46Don't waste the time, right? Let your

35:49voice heard. That's all. Thank you.

35:51>> All right. Thank you so much, Council

35:53Member Maurice.

35:55>> Thank you, Mayor. Uh

35:57we'll start with the election. I'm just

35:59kidding. You heard. Um, I do want to say

36:02that uh

36:04I was honored to um be uh uh in the

36:10audience the uh recently when Habitat

36:13for Humanity Greater Raleigh um

36:15dedicated four affordable housing homes

36:19in Friendship Station. Um I was there

36:22with uh with Mr. Welch. Um, so thank you

36:25for the invitation and it was a ceremony

36:27honoring the commitment and hard work

36:29these families put into building their

36:30futures and the beginning of a brand new

36:32chapter in their lives. It was uh also

36:35marked the completion of Habitat Greater

36:37Raleigh's first three-story town home.

36:40Um, and these are four homes that um uh

36:45were uh where four families will be

36:49purchasing with the 80% AMI um or below.

36:53and there are four additional homes that

36:55will be uh uh dedicated in that

36:58community as well. Um so that was really

37:01uh cool to see kind of the the close,

37:04you know, the other end of uh the

37:06affordable housing initiatives that we

37:08have uh here in Apex. Uh the next two

37:11things are event related and I'll be

37:13quick. The first is that witches night

37:16out is this Friday, October 30th, 5 to

37:19900 pm. Uh, and just as a quick aside, I

37:22want to point out that this is an

37:24example of uh, yes, I know there was a

37:27couple weeks ago when I had the wrong

37:28date. Um, but this is the correct date.

37:31I promise. I double checked with my

37:32wife.

37:33>> Wasn't the date?

37:34>> Yeah. Well, yeah, she wasn't

37:35[clears throat] mad at me. Everything

37:36was fine. Um, but I want to say that

37:39this is one of those examples of um, the

37:41phrase you can just do things. Um there

37:44were some there are some wonderful folks

37:46uh who were downtown Apex uh uh owners

37:49and um other uh folks who got together

37:52years ago and said, "Hey, let's have

37:53this event." And it just grew and became

37:56one of our marquee uh events on Salem

37:59Street. And so make sure not to miss

38:01that this Friday from 5:00 to 9:00 p.m.

38:04And then I also wanted to uh and I'll

38:06probably give this update again just so

38:08we can get as many folks there as

38:09possible to have a great time. Um on the

38:12third Thursday of November, on Friday,

38:13November 20th, we will have the um Jazz

38:16and Jive Fest. You'll probably see one

38:18of the screens show up here in a minute.

38:20Um and that is also 5 to 9:00 p.m. and

38:22that is at the depot uh on Salem Street.

38:25Thank you, Mayor.

38:26>> Thank you so much. All right, I got

38:28three quick things. I'll start out with

38:31the most important on my list. Um I got

38:33to brag about it, y'all. It's a big deal

38:36to me. People keep saying you act like

38:37you won a medal Olympics. In my mind, I

38:39did. I ran a half marathon this weekend.

38:43>> Good for you. [cheering]

38:45[applause]

38:47>> I mean, my god. I just did that for

38:49council member Moo because she was

38:50saying the last council meeting that we

38:53didn't dance, you dance.

38:55>> Sorry, I threw you under the bus.

38:58[laughter]

39:00>> So, I'm going to ask you a question. Why

39:01weren't you at the uh half marathon

39:04>> next year? Next year. Okay. [laughter]

39:07No, the reason I bring it up, I do want

39:09to thank the staff. Um, Lisa is in the

39:11room. Lisa, thank you so much. Uh, our

39:13police department, you guys really

39:15showed off and it was a flawless event.

39:17Uh, well attended. It was a great day.

39:19So, I just want to give you a round of

39:20applause for your great work. Thank you.

39:22[applause]

39:27>> All right. My next two things uh I want

39:29to bring up to um Mr. Clerk or Mr.

39:33Manager.

39:35Just want to get an update and maybe

39:36establish a timeline about the sound in

39:38the third floor conference room. I think

39:41we budgeted money for it. Um I would

39:43like to expedite that because I continue

39:46to get, you know, um concerns from

39:49residents. They can't hear us. Um and

39:51even the mics in here, it would be nice

39:52to have a gooseeneck like right there

39:54that people can hear us better. So can

39:55we get an update on that?

39:56>> Yes. Um, I sent an email. Our director

39:59is conf

40:11I did get an email. Um, I was trying to

40:14pull it up. There have been several

40:15steps in the works. Uh, I know the the

40:17goal from the last I saw was to get the

40:19equipment ordered within the next couple

40:21of months and so then it would be

40:23installed beginning of the year.

40:26That's the tenative time frame right

40:27now.

40:28>> There's also a small update on that with

40:30the governance committee because it's

40:31going to be a it's it's an an item of

40:34budgetary u whether or not we budgetary

40:37increase that we're we're looking at.

40:39So, but I'll touch base on that when we

40:41do the update.

40:42>> All right. Thank you so much for that.

40:44Appreciate the update. Um Western Wake

40:46Regional Water Reclamation Facility. Um

40:48I would like to get an update on that as

40:50well. I think we spoke about the odor

40:52that we keep continue to get from Jordan

40:55Manners New Hill residence and I think

40:57it's been going for maybe three years.

40:59I'm not sure if we established where

41:01it's coming from. I'm not sure if it's

41:03coming from that facility or somewhere

41:04around it. So, can we get some type of

41:06update on that as well?

41:07>> Yes, sir. Um I did speak with the

41:09manager for Kerry yesterday. Uh and they

41:13have spent some significant they've made

41:14a significant investment to try and

41:16remediate the issue there. So, um, they

41:19weren't sure where that was coming from

41:21either. So, they're still looking into

41:22it. And if it is from their facility,

41:24they'll continue to be good partners and

41:26work with us to remediate it, but that's

41:27not clear where it's coming from yet.

41:29>> Okay. Thank you so much. All right.

41:31Those are the only three things I have

41:32tonight. So, we'll move on to the

41:34adoption of the meeting agenda. Are

41:36there any changes, Mr.

41:42Any

41:52[clears throat]

41:53other changes from council members?

41:56>> Hearing none. Is there a motion?

41:58>> Move to adopt the uh agenda with um

42:01deferring the public hearings till

42:03December 17th. I have

42:05>> the motion. Second.

42:06>> Second. Ziggman.

42:08>> All right. All in favor say I. I. Motion

42:11carries. Consent agenda.

42:14>> Yes.

42:21>> Okay.

42:23>> With that, is there a motion?

42:25>> Motion to approve the second.

42:28>> Second. Council member move. All in

42:29favor say I.

42:30>> I. Oppose. Motion carries.

42:34All right. We move now to committee

42:35reports.

42:38>> Okay. So, um, as I said, the report and

42:41update on the most boring committee that

42:44we have here, it's not nearly as sexy as

42:47environmental leadership certainly

42:48doesn't have the pizzazz of public

42:50safety, but I will tell you in my eyes

42:52and I know in uh, Council Member

42:55Zaggerman's eyes, this is literally the

42:57best one that we have because the

42:59purpose of the governance um, fiscal

43:02scholarship and internal support

43:04committee is to help create the uh the

43:09mechanism that will help identify what

43:13issues as a council we need to address

43:15with regard to our fiscal policy, our

43:17budget policies, a lot of our internal

43:20governance policies, procedures, um when

43:23it comes to things such as, you know,

43:25what do we get to buy, how do we buy it,

43:27stuff like that. So, it truly is um one

43:31of the more active and kind of touches

43:34everything sort of committees. U I'm

43:36incredibly happy to have uh uh council

43:39member Zerman on this. I mean his

43:41background with regard to uh banking and

43:44fiscal matters and his um his IT and IT

43:48experience absolutely invaluable to be

43:50able to have a guy like him. So I say

43:52thank you for taking on the challenge of

43:54doing this. Um I've been on a hybrid of

43:57this for at least the last four to five

43:59years uh with our fiscal committee and

44:02our uh finance committee that we've had

44:04as a standing comm uh that we've had as

44:06a standing but also as an ad hoc

44:08committee. Um the purpose of our first

44:11meeting though was to help kind of

44:12establish a little bit of the things

44:14that are out there. Um that meeting was

44:16long and I'm not going to recount

44:19everything that's within that report.

44:21Um, but I do want to note that it is

44:23attached as a report on our uh on our

44:26agenda. So, if you go to apexnc.org,

44:30go to agendas and meetings, go to

44:33today's meeting, you'll be able to click

44:34on the attachments because there's some

44:36really relevant things and important

44:38things for folks to be able to take a

44:39look at. But for the purposes of helping

44:41my colleagues understand which things

44:43were done, um you know, we started off

44:46by identifying and talking a little bit

44:49about the big issues that are before us

44:50fiscally. Um a big lift that we have as

44:54a as a committee is to help refine and

44:56identify issues u when it comes to our

44:59budget and our budgetary priorities. As

45:02with any committee, our job is not to

45:04make policy. Our job is to help

45:06streamline things and bring things

45:07before the council so that the council

45:09can ultimately decide on policy. But the

45:11fact that we had this meeting is the

45:13indication that we are already up and

45:15running on getting the budget ready for

45:18the 2728

45:21u calendar year. Um and my hats off to

45:24uh town staff for getting ahead on this

45:27thing because this isn't an easy beast

45:30to wrangle. The job that we look at is

45:33we want to make sure that we continue to

45:35provide the most cost-effective services

45:37as a town without incurring any

45:40additional costs that are unnecessary.

45:42That's the thing that we're trying to

45:44do. So, in doing that, um, one of the

45:47areas that we got a um, an update on was

45:50from our financial um, finance

45:52department. Um, and they talked about

45:54what's going to be within our operating

45:56framework. I would recommend that

45:59anybody who has a real interest in

46:01understanding the various pots of money

46:03that we have, whether it's the operating

46:05fund, the general fund, whether it's um

46:09it's it's our water and sewer funds

46:11because um they operate separately. Um

46:16this is a great uh a great resource to

46:18take a look at in this attachment in

46:20order to kind of get an understanding of

46:22what different types of funds that we

46:24have out there. Um,

46:27our committee is going to be continue to

46:29provide oversight um on the ongoing 2026

46:33financial uh statement audit. And it

46:35appears as though and I my hats off to

46:38town staff on this one. Um, looks as

46:40though we are on a glide path to be able

46:42to get that audit done

46:46early,

46:49which is a a hats off to you guys for

46:51putting in the hard work on that. So,

46:53uh, we would anticipate, uh, you know,

46:55based upon our meeting schedule, we'll

46:56probably be able to get something before

46:58us as a board, um, if not the first week

47:01of January, the our first meeting in

47:03December. Um, in terms of being able to

47:06talk about our financial audit, which is

47:08something that we're required to do

47:09every year. Um,

47:11one of the other areas that we got a

47:13chance to talk about was, uh, speaking

47:15of audits, we did a review and our our

47:18finance team has put together, uh, a

47:21report, um, that talks about the state

47:23auditors, uh, report on other

47:25municipalities in the loca in the area.

47:28Um, some lessons learned, some things

47:30that we have uh, looked at that we're

47:32going to be taking a look at as our

47:34policies are going to be revised. Um, I

47:37highly recommend that you take a look at

47:38that 10-point plan that was put out by

47:40our uh finance team, which has the the

47:42lessons learned, but understand that

47:44that means that we've got some proposals

47:46that are going to be coming out of the

47:49uh out of this committee that's going to

47:50be geared towards addressing some of

47:52those um issues that he's identified

47:54within the um the audit of other

47:56municipalities. And um we'll be able to

48:00come up with some pretty good lessons

48:01learned on that end.

48:04The last big piece is we have a budget

48:07coming up. So, one of the things that we

48:09want to make sure everyone understands

48:10is that they get a chance to participate

48:11in a budget. There is a web page that

48:13gives you the opportunity to provide

48:15input. Um, on our uh on our budget

48:18process, you know, we are starting to

48:20get ready.

48:22No, we're not starting to get ready.

48:23We're already starting the process,

48:25unfortunately. But this gives anybody

48:28who's a member of the public an

48:29opportunity to participate. So, if you

48:30go to apexnc.org, RG there. Go to the

48:33budget tab. You can also help help us as

48:36we start to streamline and identify some

48:38of our budgetary priorities for the next

48:40fiscal year. Um, finally, um, we uh we

48:46have uh we got we got an update on a

48:49number of the state law changes that

48:50took place uh that are going to impact

48:52how we have to uh make some adjustments

48:55in our pro in our policies. So, over the

48:58next couple of months, you're going to

48:59see some policies and some um

49:02recommended ordinance changes that are

49:03going to come from us because they're

49:05being driven by uh state law uh changes.

49:09If anybody wants to participate in our

49:12committee meetings, um we will be doing

49:15a few of them in a virtual format just

49:18to provide a little bit more um

49:20opportunity for people to want to sit

49:22and watch and part and participate in

49:24that. Um, a big part of that is going to

49:27be, you know, as we start talking about

49:29the budget more, we want people to be

49:31involved and we want people to, uh, to

49:33engage. Uh, with that said, we know that

49:35if we're doing a lot of these virtual

49:37meetings, uh, one of the things that as

49:39a council, we have traditionally done is

49:42when it comes to our budget as a

49:44council, we traditionally tried not to

49:46spend money on ourselves as a council.

49:49Um, and unfortunately our IT

49:51infrastructure or a lot of the

49:53infrastructure like microphones and

49:55cameras and stuff like that usually

49:56comes out of that budget. So, it's

49:58something that we're going to be taking

49:59a look at. How do we um modernize and

50:02improve these things so that we can have

50:05a little bit more engagement. So to your

50:07point, mayor, that's one of the things

50:08that we're um looking at putting as a

50:11point of emphasis so that we can make

50:13our job a little bit easier and give

50:15people who are out there not coming in

50:17every time for our meetings, but the

50:18opportunity for them to be able to see.

50:20So we we hope we're going to be able to

50:22get that up and running um before the

50:24end of the year. And that will make our

50:27meetings a lot more I will say from from

50:31a from finance committee um from a

50:33governance committee standpoint a lot

50:35more exciting. So,

50:38>> uh, Council Member Zuckerman, anything

50:40that you want to add to that?

50:42>> I think they cannot get much more

50:44exciting than they already are.

50:45[laughter]

50:46Uh, but I'm looking forward to you

50:48raising the bar, uh, Mr. Gray. Um, so

50:51yeah, I think you covered all the all

50:53the highlights. You know, maybe put a

50:54finer point on a couple of couple of the

50:56items that you mentioned. Um, you know,

50:59financially the town is in a very strong

51:01position. uh you know as we're working

51:04through the uh the year end audit ahead

51:06of schedule and certainly way ahead of

51:08where we were uh in 2025 um you know the

51:12numbers start to come into focus and you

51:14know things are looking really really

51:15strong for for the town of Apex uh the

51:18budget cycle has has kicked off uh the

51:21first opportunity for us as council to

51:23interact will be on December 15th during

51:25the workshop where we're going to be

51:27doing our annual capital planning uh or

51:30capital improvement plan um work. So,

51:33I'm looking forward to that. Um you

51:37mentioned the the policies that we're

51:38working on. There's a work session this

51:40coming Thursday uh that where we're

51:42going to be reviewing some of these

51:44policies in a little bit little bit more

51:46detail. Uh this is something that I've

51:48been asking for for some time. Uh we

51:50have a a lot of policies that govern the

51:52behavior of town employees. there's not

51:54a whole lot of policy around the

51:56behaviors and and you know what we as

51:58elected officials uh you know the kind

52:00of the guidelines that we need to

52:02operate within uh both financially and

52:04and otherwise. So you know we're you

52:06know as we're growing as a town um I

52:09think it's time for us to mature our our

52:11policies and and you know the the things

52:14that that's regulate our conduct uh as

52:17your elected officials. So I'm looking

52:19forward to to that conversation on

52:21Thursday. Um and then as you mentioned

52:23the uh you know some of the state uh

52:26legislation that that will impact Apex

52:28you know there uh you know there may be

52:31some headwinds to the town in in that

52:33especially the the SNAP program um fraud

52:37recovery soap program is the you know

52:39aka food stamps right this is not a pro

52:42program that is administered by the town

52:44of Apex um but the way you know there's

52:47always a little bit of fraud in in the

52:49system and the state of North Carolina

52:51is uh evaluating whether or not they

52:54basically want to push that uh that

52:56recovery down to individual

52:58municipalities. So even though there's

53:00nothing we can do to help improve the

53:03situation, um we might need we might see

53:06a share of our sales tax revenues being

53:09withheld to address these um you know

53:12these uh these you know fraudulent

53:15claims that might have an impact of up

53:17to you know about a million dollars for

53:19the town of Apex. So let that sink in

53:21for a minute. That's about a half a cent

53:22and your property taxes, right? That we

53:25now need to go figure out how to how to

53:28cover that, you know, even though we

53:29have absolutely no operational influence

53:32over that over that item. So um those

53:35were kind of the the highlights. Uh

53:37thank you council member Gray for uh the

53:40introduction and the

53:44our uh next meeting that we have for the

53:47committee I believe is um December 3rd.

53:51December 3rd is going to be our next

53:53meeting. So uh if anybody has an

53:55interest or desire I don't see why you

53:58wouldn't awesome committee.

54:01Uh feel free to join us at that time.

54:04Um, Andy, anything else that you think

54:06we need to cover?

54:07>> I would just add on the budget, the

54:09survey is open until December 1st. And

54:11if you came in through the front u doors

54:14on the building, there was a sticker on

54:15the ground that has a QR code. So, you

54:17probably stepped over it. If you didn't

54:19see it, you can scan that QR code to get

54:21to the budget survey. Or, as Council

54:23Member Gray mentioned, you can get it on

54:25the website. I actually just searched in

54:27Google. You can put Apex budget survey

54:28in Google and it takes you to the page

54:31where you can click the survey as well.

54:34Thank you. And that concludes the

54:36report.

54:36>> Okay. Thank you, Councilman.

54:38All right. Town manager report.

54:41>> Good evening, mayor and council. I have

54:43a few items uh for you tonight. I'm

54:45going to start with a utility uh billing

54:47update. So, looking at the first month

54:50of disconnections that we did, this is

54:53cycle one and two together. Uh, of our

54:5532,000 customers, we had a combined 329

54:58customers that we had to disconnect

55:01power on. Uh, a number of those were

55:05majority of those were reconnected. When

55:08you fast forward to the second month,

55:10which we've only done one of our cycles

55:12so far. Uh, but if you recall, we had

55:14about 150 on each cycle, we are down,

55:17cycle one went through with 32 customers

55:20that were disconnected this round. uh 21

55:22of those were reconnected by the end of

55:24the day. So you had a net of about 11

55:26customers that went disconnected beyond.

55:30So that's so far with one cycle. So

55:32those numbers are coming down and that

55:33takes into account anybody that may not

55:35have followed through with their payment

55:37plan. If it wasn't adjusted, then those

55:40would have been disconnected as well. So

55:41we only had not to minimize to those 11,

55:44but a net of 11 that were disconnected.

55:47[clears throat and cough] Our payment

55:48plan numbers give you a high level. We

55:50have just over a,070 plans in place with

55:55a total value of just over $3 million in

55:58payment plans. Uh our build build back

56:02to customers each month, so the monthly

56:06kind of amateurization of those payment

56:07plans, if you will, is about $245,000.

56:10Uh so hopefully we'll start to see those

56:12numbers come in and that total drop by

56:16roughly 250,000

56:18a month between the two cycles. So

56:21relatively good news on a a heavy topic

56:24there but trending well for the moment

56:27on the meter exchanges. If you recall

56:29we're under our electric meter change

56:31out program with a fall completion. We

56:34have about 280 meters left. So that

56:36program is quickly coming to an end.

56:38We'll have some closeout to do after

56:40those are all in place. Uh some

56:42different testing and and closeout

56:43items, but 280 left to be exchanged for

56:46electric meters. The Salem Street Skate

56:49project, if you haven't been downtown,

56:51you should. Uh it's looking exciting.

56:54There's still some barricades in place

56:55obviously and construction happening,

56:57but you can really start to see the

56:59downtown uh work coming together and

57:01what it's going to look like. We've

57:03received a lot of the fixtures, the

57:05furniture. Uh good news, the poles ship

57:08on the 23rd of October. So those are our

57:11light poles that will be coming down. So

57:13that's fantastic that those will be

57:16coming in. Uh phase two uh the last soil

57:21cell should be going in uh early next

57:24week. So the soil cells will be done for

57:26the the second phase. The trench drain

57:28on phase two is about 80% complete. And

57:32they actually I think they started maybe

57:34today with some of the pavers for the

57:36second lane, but the street pavers

57:38should be worked on over the next week

57:41or so. So, you'll start to see a lot of

57:43progress there. Uh, and then the

57:46Saunders gathering space, the retaining

57:48wall foundations were poured and wall

57:50constructions in progress. So, a lot of

57:52great things happening on that project.

57:54We've heard some good feedback from the

57:56businesses on how the contractor adapted

57:58to the second phase and has been able to

58:01open up the sidewalk. If you're down

58:03there for our event, A couple Fridays

58:05ago, the sidewalk was wider because they

58:08were able to move the barricades and

58:09take advantage of it. I think it was all

58:10the way up through the pub on one side.

58:12So, some good adaptations there. Over

58:15the next two to four weeks, you're going

58:16to see light pole installation, street

58:19tree installation. You'll continue to

58:21see the amenities, which are the high t

58:24high tables, trash cans that we put in,

58:27benches, and so that should continue and

58:30some crosswalk work. So, a lot of

58:31exciting things over the next couple

58:33weeks there on that project. The Peakway

58:35update, [clears throat]

58:37I don't have a new projected completion

58:39date. Uh work is definitely continuing.

58:41The water main work on South Salem was

58:43complete. Uh the storm drainage

58:45installations complete. Asphalt paving

58:47along South Salem is in progress. Uh the

58:50brick facade around the north side

58:52bridge abutment is in progress. Uh, and

58:54there's a lot of work going on at the

58:56intersection of the Peakway and Salem

58:58for the on andoff ramp that's in

58:59progress. So, there's a lot of work

59:01going there. It's a lot of finishing

59:03work that they're working through. Uh,

59:05so hopefully that project will be

59:07concluded in the coming couple months is

59:09our hope that we continue to just plug

59:11away the contractors on that work. Uh,

59:14this was mentioned by council member

59:15Ree. The fall into downtown series

59:18continues. Our next date is November

59:2020th and that's Jazz and Jive. It's also

59:23at the same um same time as at the

59:26Halley there's in the on the steps

59:28series there is a jazz performance and

59:31so you could go get your jazz at the

59:34event and then at 7:30 so that event's 5

59:36to 8 head over to the starting at 7:30

59:40uh and we have it's Kate McGarry and

59:44Keith Gant who are Grammy nominated

59:46artists that are coming to our here and

59:48tickets are somewhere in the

59:49neighborhood I think of $35 for that

59:51performance there are still tickets

59:53available We expect those to go pretty

59:54quick in the next couple weeks. Uh but

59:56that's an awesome opportunity to bring

59:58some there's some great talent that's

1:00:00coming to Apex. So you can get your jazz

1:00:02fill that evening in the downtown area

1:00:04and then head over to the for the

1:00:06performance there. And the last thing I

1:00:08don't think that I mentioned it at the

1:00:09last meeting. We did have a Peak Academy

1:00:11graduation uh that was on September 30th

1:00:15and this class it was two cohorts and we

1:00:17saw over 60 residents graduate from the

1:00:19Peak Academy class. So, a great event

1:00:22and we look to have multiple cohorts

1:00:24going forward. But we've got several

1:00:26hundred now graduates of the Peak

1:00:28Academy program and so kudos to Kendall

1:00:31and Sandy for their work on that and

1:00:33also to all the staff that put on the

1:00:36for the meetings and kind of showcased

1:00:38our departments as they went through

1:00:39that. So, a lot of exciting things and

1:00:41look for more on that is all that I

1:00:44have.

1:00:45>> Thanks B.

1:00:47>> All right. Town clerk report.

1:00:48>> I just had one question. Oh, yeah. for

1:00:50town manager Vosber. Thank you. I was

1:00:52going to ask Thank you. It's all great

1:00:53update on the streetscape. Um is there

1:00:55an update on the lighting that goes

1:00:59above this this street?

1:01:01>> I believe that's also tied to the pole

1:01:03delivery. Uh so we're hoping that those

1:01:05have been shipped and if we can start to

1:01:07get them installed.

1:01:08>> No rush, but it is eventually going to

1:01:09come.

1:01:10>> Yes, sir. Awesome.

1:01:11>> The hope is I mean everyone's and we've

1:01:13had the committee and they're like, "We

1:01:14hope it's there by the parade." We hope

1:01:15so, too. But right now, there's no

1:01:17guarantee. But that's what our hope is.

1:01:19>> Thanks, sir. Yes, sir.

1:01:23>> Okay. Good evening, Mayor Council. Thank

1:01:25you. Uh, just a few updates. Town

1:01:27[clears throat] staff continues to work

1:01:28on our implementation of the Jets Voya

1:01:31system, which is our new public record

1:01:33platform management software. Um, we are

1:01:36looking at a go live of December 1st

1:01:38right now. Um, we pushed that back a

1:01:40little bit just to to make sure that

1:01:42we've got some development components

1:01:44accounted for within our software. Um,

1:01:46just a reminder for those that may be

1:01:47watching, we have doubled the amount of

1:01:49requests that we got last year. So, the

1:01:51volume continues to increase

1:01:52significantly.

1:01:54Um, as council member uh Zigerman

1:01:56mentioned, we do have a work session

1:01:58this Thursday on the third floor

1:01:59regarding some council policies. Um, so

1:02:02please send me any updates that you have

1:02:04to to those. Um, the public safety

1:02:07committee on November 5th at 3M will

1:02:09primarily focus on ebike. So, I know

1:02:11that that's been we've gotten a couple

1:02:13questions about what the topic will be

1:02:15on that meeting. So, just wanting to set

1:02:17some expectations and remind folks that

1:02:18that is the primary topic. Um, advisory

1:02:22boards, you all will be getting a packet

1:02:23for two uh boards this uh by the end of

1:02:27this week. Uh, board of adjustment has

1:02:29two positions that will need action

1:02:30before the end of the year as well as

1:02:32seven positions on the environmental

1:02:34advisory board. Um, and based on the new

1:02:36ordinance, the mayor has 30 days to make

1:02:38a recommendation. Um, and so this is

1:02:40scheduled to come back to you all in the

1:02:41December meeting, but before those terms

1:02:44expire. So, um, there's a significant

1:02:46amount of terms, um, with it being seven

1:02:48on the environmental advisory board. So,

1:02:50just wanted to make sure that everybody

1:02:51was aware of that. We also have, um, the

1:02:56software that we currently use for our

1:02:57meeting agendas um, is becoming obsolete

1:03:01and so we've already secured a vendor

1:03:03for that. That's Granica's uh, one

1:03:05meeting. And so we're looking to go live

1:03:07the first of the year on that. Um we've

1:03:10got another meeting this coming Monday.

1:03:11So we'll provide another update, but um

1:03:13the way that you receive agendas this

1:03:15time next year will will no longer

1:03:17exist. And so we're working towards how

1:03:20that we can improve that process, but

1:03:21also make sure that we meet uh your

1:03:23needs as well as residents needs to

1:03:25access the information. Um and then as

1:03:28mentioned um we are deferring an item to

1:03:31the council's rules committees related

1:03:34to uh virtual participation for council

1:03:37committees and council uh members that

1:03:39participate in council committees. So um

1:03:42that will come back to the the

1:03:43governance committee on their December

1:03:453rd meeting um and then a recommendation

1:03:47to you all for the December 17th. So

1:03:50just a couple of updates. Thank you.

1:03:52>> Okay. Thank you for that report. All

1:03:54right. We're going to move now to

1:03:55proclamation special presentations. We

1:03:57have two proclamations tonight. So,

1:03:59we'll grab those proclamations and meet

1:04:01out front for our reading.

1:04:24All

1:04:28right. The first proclamation will be

1:04:29American Indian Heritage Month 2026. And

1:04:32leading the proclamation will be council

1:04:33member Moot.

1:04:38>> American Indian Heritage Month 2026

1:04:42proclamation.

1:04:44Whereas the town acknowledges that the

1:04:48home we now know as Apex was originally

1:04:54home to traps of American Indians who

1:04:57were forcefully removed hundreds of

1:05:00years ago through horrible acts of

1:05:04oppression. And

1:05:09>> whereas the town of Apex is tremendously

1:05:11fortunate to be home to a vibrant

1:05:14community of American Indians who have

1:05:16contributed to the town in so many ways

1:05:19and are incredibly gracious in sharing

1:05:21their culture with us. hand.

1:05:27>> Whereas North Carolina is home to nine

1:05:29state recognized tribes including the

1:05:32Kataba Nation, Kohjari, the Eastern Band

1:05:35of Cherokee, Halawa Saponyi, Lumbi,

1:05:39Maharin, Okanichi Band of the Saponyi

1:05:42Nation, Sapani and the Wakama Si uh

1:05:46Suan. And

1:05:51>> whereas North Carolina is also home to

1:05:53four urban Indian organizations that

1:05:55hold memberships with the North Carolina

1:05:58Commission of Indian Affairs, including

1:06:00the Cumberland County Associ Association

1:06:03for Indian People, Guilford Native

1:06:05American Association, Metrolina Native

1:06:08American Association, and the Triangle

1:06:10Native American Society. each of which

1:06:13plays a vital role in preserving and

1:06:15celebrating American Indian heritage,

1:06:18strengthening cultural identity,

1:06:20advocating for their communities, and

1:06:22promoting greater awareness and

1:06:24appreciation of American Indian

1:06:26contributions throughout our state.

1:06:28hands.

1:06:32>> Whereas the town of Apex is committed to

1:06:35celebrating and honoring American Indian

1:06:38heritage and is excited to host a Native

1:06:41American tasting experience on Thursday,

1:06:45November 19th, which will provide an

1:06:47opportunity for the community to explore

1:06:49and celebrate indigenous foods, culinary

1:06:53traditions, and cultural heritage.

1:06:59Now therefore, I, Jacqu K. Gilbert,

1:07:01mayor of Apex, North Carolina, do hereby

1:07:03proclaim the month of November 2026,

1:07:07American Indian Heritage Month in the

1:07:09town of Apex, and encourage residents to

1:07:12learn more about the history and

1:07:14traditions of the land we reside on and

1:07:16the people who first called it home,

1:07:18signed on this 27th day of October,

1:07:202026. And I would like to call up the

1:07:24following people to receive the

1:07:26proclamation. Karen Lee, Rosanna Stewart

1:07:29Lindorfer, Steven Lindorfer, Walter

1:07:32Stewart, Chris Stewart, Orlando

1:07:35Lindorfer, Sky Lindorfer, and Herbert

1:07:38Bailey. And JD Freeman is here.

1:07:41[applause]

1:08:57>> [clears throat]

1:08:57>> Hello, my name is Rosanna Stewart

1:08:59Lindorfer and my people have been here

1:09:03since the very beginning.

1:09:06I want to my reason for standing here

1:09:08today is to honor my ancestors who never

1:09:11got a chance in their lifetime to be

1:09:15recognized or known. And because I carry

1:09:18their DNA, I stand before you today to

1:09:22thank you. You have no idea what it

1:09:24means to be celebrated as a people and a

1:09:28nation. and my Native American name is

1:09:31Howling Wolf. Thank you so much.

1:09:35>> Thank you. [applause]

1:09:44>> You want to take more pictures?

1:09:47[laughter]

1:09:53>> Another round of applause. [applause]

1:10:13All right, I get to I get to do

1:10:15something new tonight. I get to uh

1:10:17introduce a proclamation. I haven't had

1:10:20that opportunity yet, so bear with me as

1:10:22I fumble through. Um,

1:10:29every politician has their why as to,

1:10:32you know, what's makes them put

1:10:34themselves out there,

1:10:37be part of of, you know, the leadership

1:10:39of a community or, you know, even higher

1:10:41offices. And the why or one of the wise

1:10:45for me is that I believe I have

1:10:48something I can contribute to make

1:10:50tomorrow's world maybe a little bit

1:10:52better than yesterday's world was. And

1:10:56part of that I I I believe that that we

1:11:00as parents, as leaders, we have a

1:11:03responsibility to nurture and cultivate

1:11:06the next generation. And so what really

1:11:10gets me excited and inspires me is when

1:11:13I see young people getting engaged or

1:11:15young people doing truly remarkable

1:11:18things that were simply not an option

1:11:22when I was growing up, right? And I

1:11:24believe that, you know, as we

1:11:28hand over, you know, from one generation

1:11:29to the next, right? I I you know love to

1:11:31see um you know the next generation

1:11:34having more of those opportunities more

1:11:36ability to be successful than uh than we

1:11:39were. Um, and so it's it's with great

1:11:42privilege tonight that I have an example

1:11:44that I want to share with you about

1:11:46three of the Apex High School seniors,

1:11:48Jeremiah, Joseph, Ashton Tran, and

1:11:50Sanjay Ambati, who I believe uh have,

1:11:54you know, done something tremendous and

1:11:57that I want to recognize with you guys

1:11:59here tonight. Um I want to share this

1:12:01example not just uh you know to

1:12:03highlight the what I believe is is

1:12:05tremendous success of these young

1:12:07gentlemen uh but also as an example of

1:12:10what I believe we can achieve when the

1:12:12system actually works and works together

1:12:14and works for for all of us where you

1:12:17know we have uh parents who nurture a

1:12:20curiosity in in their children when we

1:12:22have uh teachers like Mr. Young, their

1:12:26their teacher was here tonight who um

1:12:28you know cultivate that uh that

1:12:31curiosity and give their you know give

1:12:33their students a chance to truly explore

1:12:35that when we have government agencies be

1:12:38that through our school system or

1:12:40research institutions creating

1:12:42opportunities to do something truly

1:12:45remarkable or truly new you know

1:12:47innovate and and create something new

1:12:49for this world. And so, um, I'm not

1:12:52going to do their work any justice, um,

1:12:54by by trying to describe it to you, but

1:12:56these three gentlemen have developed a

1:12:59prototype, uh, cube satellite, uh, that

1:13:02improves on some of the designs of

1:13:04existing satellites out there. Uh, they

1:13:06worked through a, um, an organization

1:13:08called Ecotech Lab. Uh, and oh, by the

1:13:11way, this was not their first project

1:13:12that they did with with Ecotech. it was

1:13:14there second after they designed a uh

1:13:16you know a CPU in their first uh you

1:13:19know first go around. Um, you know,

1:13:22these are examples that of of things

1:13:24that, you know, truly were not available

1:13:26to me when I was a high school student,

1:13:28right? And and so to see these these

1:13:30young gentlemen really take that

1:13:32opportunity and and take it to the next

1:13:34level is is truly truly inspiring to me.

1:13:36And for that reason and by putting Apex

1:13:38on the map uh the way that that they are

1:13:40doing it and and hopefully you know

1:13:42leading to a a research lab or or you

1:13:45know uh something to that effect you

1:13:47know coming closer to home for you know

1:13:49for us to continue to nurture these

1:13:51kinds of cur curiosities in in our

1:13:53students and and children. Um you know

1:13:55for that I want to thank these these

1:13:57gentlemen. And so with that in mind I

1:13:59want to introduce a a proclamation to to

1:14:01honor these these three gentlemen. And I

1:14:04hope that that my colleagues here will

1:14:06will join me in in reading that. So I'll

1:14:09start start off by reading the

1:14:11proclamation recognizing the Apex High

1:14:13School 8 or 12 student research team.

1:14:16Whereas Apex High School juniors

1:14:18Jeremiah Joseph, Ashton Tran, and Sanjay

1:14:20Ambati working through Ecotech Lab have

1:14:23demonstrated exceptional initiative,

1:14:25creativity, and dedication in the fields

1:14:28of science, technology, engineering, and

1:14:30mathematics throughout the development

1:14:32of Aether 12, a 12U cube set prototype

1:14:36designed for operation in low Earth

1:14:38orbit and

1:14:43peaks up. Whereas the Ether 12 project

1:14:46was developed to address challenges

1:14:48faced by small spacecraft including

1:14:51radiation exposure, thermal cycling,

1:14:54limited power availability, and in

1:14:57component degradation while

1:14:59incorporating innovative features

1:15:00intended to improve spacecraft

1:15:02durability, adaptability, and

1:15:05operational lifespan. And

1:15:11>> whereas Jeremiah Joseph serving as team

1:15:14lead, Ashton Tran serving as lead

1:15:17technical engineer, and Sanjay Abbate

1:15:21overseeing operational systems

1:15:23development and testing have each

1:15:25contributed specialized knowledge and

1:15:27collaborative leadership to the design,

1:15:30engineering, and advancement of the

1:15:33Aether 12 project. And

1:15:40>> whereas the students have distinguished

1:15:43themselves through continued independent

1:15:47research and hands-on innovation,

1:15:51building upon previous work involving

1:15:55thermal cooling systems for high

1:15:58performance semiconductor technology and

1:16:02expanding their experience through

1:16:05engagement with engineers, research

1:16:08institutions, competitions, and

1:16:11opportunities within the aerospace

1:16:14industry. And

1:16:18>> whereas the accomplishments of Jeremiah

1:16:20Ashton and Sanjay reflect the value of

1:16:22curiosity, perseverance, collaboration,

1:16:25and academic excellence while bringing

1:16:28distinction to Apex High School and

1:16:30serving as an inspiration to other young

1:16:32people throughout the Apex community who

1:16:34aspire to pursue careers in the STEM

1:16:37fields.

1:16:41Now therefore, I Jacqu K. Gilbert, mayor

1:16:44of Apex, North Carolina. On behalf of

1:16:46the Apex Town Council, do hereby

1:16:48recognize and congratulate Jeremiah

1:16:51Joseph Ashantron and Sanjay Umbati,

1:16:56the Aether 12 student research team for

1:16:59their outstanding achievement,

1:17:00innovation, and commitment to advancing

1:17:03STEM research and extend the town's best

1:17:05wishes as they continue to develop the

1:17:08Aether2 project and pursue future

1:17:10opportunities in science, engineering,

1:17:12and aerospace innovation. Young men,

1:17:15please come up and receive your

1:17:17proclamation that you will deserve.

1:17:18[applause]

1:17:41You got to come up here.

1:18:20Jeremiah and Ashton.

1:18:24you guys say a little.

1:18:27>> Hi. So, we have been working on this

1:18:29project uh pretty hard for about the

1:18:31last six months and I just want to say

1:18:33thank you uh for the recognization and

1:18:37for just uh such a great committee to

1:18:39offer these kind of opportunities at

1:18:40Apex High to really offer these kind of

1:18:43classes to introduce us into STEM and

1:18:46let us get into these kind of projects

1:18:48so we can hone our abilities and really

1:18:50get in the real world. Thank you.

1:18:54>> [applause]

1:18:59>> I'm Ash Tran. As the lead engineer, I

1:19:01ran into many engineering problems with

1:19:04the materials and the internal

1:19:06components. But one of the things that

1:19:08Apex High and I think Apex as a

1:19:11community provided me is the proper

1:19:13schooling. We have great teachers. We

1:19:15have great staff, especially in the

1:19:17education department that provides these

1:19:19opportunities to young people like us.

1:19:21and I want to say thank you to that.

1:19:24[applause]

1:19:30>> Hi, I'm Sanji Ambati. Uh I'm a senior at

1:19:32Apex High and I'd like to thank you all

1:19:35for listening to our um presentation on

1:19:37Ether 12 and I'm thankful thankful for

1:19:40this opportunity uh presenting in front

1:19:42of um a town council and I'm thank

1:19:45thankful for the opportunity to do this

1:19:48STEM uh project um which is I think one

1:19:51of the highest prestige um any student

1:19:53in STEM would want to do a project with

1:19:55NASA project that a lot of people want

1:19:58to do in aerospace. So, I'm thankful for

1:20:01thankful for this opportunity and Yep.

1:20:05[applause]

1:20:09>> All right, guys. Um, my name is Mr.

1:20:11Keith Young. I'm the founder of Ecote

1:20:13Tech Lab. I started Ecote Tech 22 years

1:20:16ago. AB Labs in Detroit, Orlando,

1:20:20Baltimore, Philadelphia, and Houston. I

1:20:23let students in the lab in the third

1:20:25grade to do research so that when they

1:20:28get to where these guys are, right? Um

1:20:31I'd like to thank you for the

1:20:32opportunity to allow me to work with

1:20:35them and really give them access to a

1:20:38network of scientists. So that includes

1:20:42the United Nations, that includes NASA,

1:20:44that includes startup companies. And

1:20:47because of that, um, I'd like to

1:20:51actually build an innovation lab in Apex

1:20:54because these guys are the reason why

1:20:57I'm here, right? I met uh Jeremiah

1:21:00through his dad and his dad saw some of

1:21:03the work that we were doing around the

1:21:05country. He said, "Hey, how can we get

1:21:07um my son involved?" I said, "Well, he

1:21:09can get involved, but he says, "Well, he

1:21:11lives in Apex, North Carolina." So I

1:21:13said, "Let's build a bridge from my

1:21:16Detroit lab to Apex and let's create

1:21:20opportunities for those guys." And so

1:21:22Jeremiah found Ashton and he found

1:21:25Sanjay and they've been actually three

1:21:28of the best scientists that I've ever

1:21:30seen over the 20 years that I've been

1:21:32running EcoTech. So thank you very much

1:21:34for the opportunity.

1:21:37[applause]

1:21:43We going to get it done. We're going to

1:21:44be aware that

1:22:06All

1:22:14right, thank you everyone.

1:22:17>> We move on to presentation three, the

1:22:19town asphalt pavement condition and

1:22:21management work plan update.

1:22:25>> Yeah, good evening, mayor and council.

1:22:27My name is Amir Nzarati, transportation

1:22:29engineering manager with the town. I'm

1:22:30here with Steve Lander with Pavement

1:22:32Navigators. Uh thank you for having us

1:22:34here today. Uh we're here to talk

1:22:36tonight about maintaining one of our

1:22:38biggest assets, our asphalt pavement. Uh

1:22:41so over the past six months, we have

1:22:42been working on updating our pavement

1:22:44condition survey, which is something we

1:22:46do every three years. As part of the

1:22:48survey, every town street is evaluated

1:22:50and rated based on a variety of asphalt

1:22:53distresses.

1:22:54Uh we'll we'll review what we found and

1:22:56how these results will inform our

1:22:58pavement preservation program going

1:22:59forward. uh this data really is the

1:23:02foundation of what we use to prioritize

1:23:05our asphalt uh reservicing and

1:23:08preservation uh program. Uh so with

1:23:11that, I'll turn over to Steve through

1:23:13the presentation.

1:23:13>> Thank you.

1:23:14>> Thank you,

1:23:16>> Mayor Council. What an uplifting uh

1:23:19experience so far and I'm hoping that I

1:23:21follow suit and have an uplifting

1:23:24presentation to talk about a subject

1:23:26that is not boring and that's the

1:23:28pavement of Apex. So uh just a quick

1:23:32background on myself of a 33y year

1:23:34career last 23 has been in pavement

1:23:36management. Um I've managed 160 plus

1:23:41pavement condition surveys. Um, and I

1:23:44managed uh four since 2011, four of the

1:23:48last pavement condition surveys for the

1:23:50town. And I take pride in that I might

1:23:52have had an influence on the condition

1:23:54of the network that it is now possibly.

1:23:57So, uh, last year I started my company

1:24:00on on Friday. It was a one-year

1:24:02anniversary. So, I'm real real proud of

1:24:04that. And, uh, so everything pavement

1:24:06management, uh, that's what we do. And,

1:24:08uh, somehow I ended up doing that, uh,

1:24:10for a career. And it's pretty cool. So

1:24:13um the payment management blueprint is

1:24:15something that we fully subscribe to and

1:24:17this is a program and and these are

1:24:19components of what we believe to be a

1:24:22successful payment management program

1:24:23and and it starts with a plan right any

1:24:26good adventure starts with a plan and uh

1:24:28one thing that's great about the town of

1:24:30Apex is that you guys have a plan when I

1:24:33give these council presentations a lot

1:24:35of times they there's no plan in place

1:24:37and that's okay right that you got to

1:24:38start somewhere but but you guys have a

1:24:40plan and and the plan is where where you

1:24:43lay the the groundwork for all the other

1:24:46pieces of this uh this pavement

1:24:49management blueprint. It comes in when

1:24:51once you know where you want to be and

1:24:53and what you want to be when you grow up

1:24:55right with your pavement network. We

1:24:56need to know the condition of the

1:24:58network, right? So take getting that

1:25:00data like air was mentioning using

1:25:02[snorts] life cycle modeling to be able

1:25:04to take that data from the field and

1:25:07then leverage it so we know where the

1:25:09what the condition of the network's

1:25:10going to be over time

1:25:13using the proper treatments and you guys

1:25:15again you know top of the class uh you

1:25:18guys are using all the right treatments

1:25:19at the right time u so it's I don't it's

1:25:22don't have to get too much into that

1:25:25putting together concise uh bid

1:25:27documents so things get built the way

1:25:29they're supposed to. Having construction

1:25:31inspection full-time uh because uh we

1:25:34got to make sure that things are built

1:25:35the way we want it to be built. And

1:25:37importantly is construction history. How

1:25:41well did the treatments perform over

1:25:43time? If they didn't last as long as we

1:25:46think they should last, why? And should

1:25:48we switch treatments? Do we need to do

1:25:50something different? It's really

1:25:52important. And then utilities. and I

1:25:54make a statement that no one ever

1:25:55contests is that nobody likes a a cut on

1:25:59a brand new asphalt, right? It just

1:26:02drives everybody absolutely crazy.

1:26:04Getting the utilities out of the way is

1:26:05really important. So, anyway, this is uh

1:26:07just a snapshot of uh it's a program

1:26:10that needs to be massaged over time. Um

1:26:13and and and that's what we're doing

1:26:15here.

1:26:17All right, going to get into planning

1:26:19just a little bit here. Um, the town

1:26:22already has visions and goals for his

1:26:23pavement. I understand that a pavement

1:26:26condition index of 80 is the goal,

1:26:28right? And that's that's a great goal to

1:26:30have and I think that's that's that's

1:26:32really good. So having that goal, that's

1:26:34your level of service, right? And

1:26:36acceptable and and you know how much

1:26:38funding you're going to need to do that,

1:26:40the types of treatments and the

1:26:42outcomes, right? Where people think of

1:26:44the roadway network is uh, you know,

1:26:46it's desirable. So to put this into

1:26:49context uh we have pictures of roads for

1:26:52uh the different condition states. So

1:26:55starting with the very good so what you

1:26:57know what is a PCI or pavement condition

1:26:59index score of a 91 to 100. Well the

1:27:02picture on the right there is a brand

1:27:05new street. It's got no distresses. It's

1:27:07newly paved. That's a very good street.

1:27:10And as we start moving down the

1:27:11conditioned states you'll see that the

1:27:13roads start getting a little more wear

1:27:14on them. So the good streets. So the

1:27:18surface is just a little worn out. You

1:27:20might have some distresses. Not

1:27:22terrible, right? It when we start to get

1:27:24to fair, you start the the surface is a

1:27:26little rougher. There's a little more

1:27:28distresses. There's patching. Um so

1:27:30that's fair. When we get to poor, then

1:27:33you start seeing potholes. You start

1:27:35seeing different types of cracking and a

1:27:38lot of it on on the pavement. and then

1:27:40very poor where the the entire roadway

1:27:43is uh is shot so to speak. Uh just so

1:27:47you know that this road is not a town

1:27:49road. This is just for an example

1:27:52[laughter] there there are Yeah. Yeah.

1:27:54You're like look at you're looking at it

1:27:55you're like oh my gosh. Right. So uh

1:27:57yeah. So this this is it's an example

1:28:00okay of uh of of what a very poor street

1:28:03looks like. All right. So that that

1:28:05those are the condition states with the

1:28:07pictures. All right. Moving along to the

1:28:09pavement condition survey.

1:28:12So the FHWA, the Federal Highway

1:28:15Administration recommends that you

1:28:17perform a pavement condition survey

1:28:19every two to three years and the town

1:28:20does it every three years, which is

1:28:22acceptable and and it's an unbiased

1:28:25perspective. So when I I personally

1:28:27rated every road in in the town's

1:28:30network and I so I I'm like I'm refing a

1:28:33game that my kids not in, right? So

1:28:35that's what I'm when I'm refing, you

1:28:37know, and rating the roads. That's what

1:28:38I'm looking at. And um, you know,

1:28:40applying life cycle modeling with the

1:28:42predictive modeling to leverage that

1:28:44data. At the end, it comes out with

1:28:46optimized work plans. I'm going to talk

1:28:48about the software we use this in mind,

1:28:50which uses true project selection

1:28:53optimization, which is it it far exceeds

1:28:57just a a benefit cost uh analysis. And

1:29:00then we generated a report as well. So

1:29:03it's important that we do it every three

1:29:04years. Number one, it's that when you

1:29:08spend all that money, we want to know

1:29:09what the condition of the network is

1:29:11after three years. Is it going up? Is it

1:29:13going down? What do we need to make

1:29:14adjustments for? And when you're using

1:29:16preservation treatments at the end of

1:29:18the third year, the data is not as as

1:29:22strong for making decisions. And so it's

1:29:25important to make a you know to update

1:29:27your data.

1:29:29So, uh, the town maintains, uh, 268,

1:29:33uh, miles of road. That's centerline

1:29:35miles. And, uh, we completed the

1:29:37pavement condition survey in June of

1:29:39this year. And we, you can see here, we

1:29:42collected seven types of distresses.

1:29:45And, uh, we collect severity and extent

1:29:48for each of these distresses. So,

1:29:50severity is how bad, low, medium, and

1:29:52high. And extent is how much there is of

1:29:55a particular distress. I could go into

1:29:58detail on these things, but I'm not

1:30:00going to. [laughter]

1:30:02So, here are the findings. So, uh the

1:30:04pavement condition index currently is

1:30:06now at an 86.

1:30:09And and I and I think there's there's a

1:30:11there's a few factors and uh

1:30:12contributing to that. That's uh keeping

1:30:15up with the the resurfacing program, re

1:30:17rejuvenators, the microsurfacing, and

1:30:20also too is accepting uh a large amount

1:30:23of new roads into the roadway network.

1:30:26roughly at about 10 miles, 10 center

1:30:28line miles per year. That's a pretty big

1:30:30expansion, right? So, when I was

1:30:32surveying it back in 2011, there might

1:30:35have been 120 miles. So, now we're at,

1:30:37you know, 268. So, the network's in good

1:30:41condition. And this backlog number is if

1:30:44you had enough money to fix everything

1:30:46at one time, which nobody does, but this

1:30:48is a healthy backlog. Uh I you know in

1:30:52in case so the the the chart that's off

1:30:54to the right you see other

1:30:56municipalities Apex is the highest rated

1:30:59network that I've ever seen. So you know

1:31:02kudos to the town uh for that. Um so but

1:31:06Newton which is on the bottom of the

1:31:08list they have 78 miles of road and

1:31:11their backlog is double that of of town

1:31:14of Apex.

1:31:16This is just a snapshot of the overall

1:31:19network. green being very good, the dark

1:31:22green, light green's good, and those

1:31:25comprise 82% of the network, right?

1:31:29That's that's impressive.

1:31:33So, what's at stake? So, when we look at

1:31:36the overall assets, the town has about

1:31:383.8 million square yards of pavement. If

1:31:41we were to replace everything at one

1:31:44time, it's $60 a square yard. it works

1:31:47out to $226 million and that doesn't

1:31:50include the curb and gutter which is you

1:31:52know it's another large uh fee but so

1:31:56anyway that's what's at stake it is one

1:31:58of the largest assets so it behooves us

1:32:01to to maintain it which which was which

1:32:04is happening um so life cycle modeling

1:32:07uh like I said we use the inframine

1:32:09software um which air has access to and

1:32:13uh we'll be able to run scenarios uh

1:32:15when needed

1:32:17Uh the the first scenario that we ran

1:32:19was with the current funding from the

1:32:21capital improvement plan and uh we

1:32:24developed a three-year plan. It's and

1:32:26it's preliminary and it's based on

1:32:28grouping of subdivisions

1:32:30and uh we matched the strategic goal of

1:32:34three parts preservation, one part

1:32:36rehabilitation. So that's how we

1:32:38developed the plan that you see in the

1:32:40the map on the slide.

1:32:44So the scenario is for 10 years of uh

1:32:47the current funding and if you look on

1:32:50the left you can see the PCR PCI score

1:32:53zero being the worst 100 being the best

1:32:56and over that 10-year period that the

1:32:58town streets remain in good condition

1:33:02and that's uh and that's that's good

1:33:04that's the good news is that uh we're

1:33:05maintaining the network with the current

1:33:08funding.

1:33:10All righty. Talking about the

1:33:12maintenance toolbox.

1:33:14So this is a curve uh a standard

1:33:17deterioration curve. If we did not apply

1:33:20any treatments to the road, this is what

1:33:22the curve would look like and it would

1:33:24deteriorate. So this is a standard

1:33:25deterioration curve. It's this is a

1:33:28demonstration of where things can be

1:33:30applied, the different types of

1:33:31treatments. This is how we performed our

1:33:34analysis. I won't go get into much

1:33:36detail here, but just to show you how we

1:33:39uh came about uh selecting these

1:33:41treatments and where on this curve

1:33:45and these are the uh the treatments that

1:33:47are currently being used. The top left

1:33:49is your rejuvenators. And uh it goes

1:33:52down pink on brand new pavement. And

1:33:54sometimes folks will complain that how

1:33:56come we have this street over here and

1:33:58you're putting this stuff on there and

1:33:59it and it goes into the pavement and it

1:34:01looks like nobody did anything. But I

1:34:03can tell you that it works. You know,

1:34:05Mir knows it works too. And uh so that's

1:34:08that's and that's the cheapest of the uh

1:34:10the treatments that you see on the

1:34:11slide. As you move over to the right,

1:34:13microsurfacing, the streets are have a

1:34:15little more distress to them. Uh so you

1:34:17might do some crack sealing, some

1:34:18patching, and then you put this thin

1:34:20lift down. Uh both rejuvenators and

1:34:22micro, you can do two lifts or two

1:34:24treatments. And um moving down to the

1:34:27low left, that's your rehabilitation,

1:34:29milling, and overlay. And then

1:34:31reconstruction, which you have none of.

1:34:34This is if the pavement is totally uh

1:34:36done. You go and you grind it up. Um

1:34:38this is full depth reclamation. Grind up

1:34:41the asphalt, the pavement, the stone,

1:34:43and you uh put cement and water in and

1:34:46it sets up like a new pavement. But uh

1:34:48you guys are operating in a place where

1:34:49you're not going to have to do that

1:34:51hopefully.

1:34:53So the the name of the game after your

1:34:55re rehabilitation is to do two

1:34:57rejuvenators, do two microsurfacing

1:35:01and um you know you might you could take

1:35:03a pavement that might last 15 to 17

1:35:05years and get 25 to 30 years. So really

1:35:10really important and you might get more.

1:35:14So to wrap it up, you know, it's uh it's

1:35:16really great uh to to know that the town

1:35:19is taking care of one of the largest

1:35:20assets it it owns and has has visions

1:35:23and goals and uh has a strategic

1:35:25approach, right? That you guys are

1:35:27conducting these pavement condition

1:35:29surveys using life cycle modeling to

1:35:32leverage that data so you can make

1:35:33informed decisions. you know, continuing

1:35:36to fund the network is uh is going to be

1:35:38important. And as I mentioned earlier,

1:35:41the uh the expansion of uh Apex,

1:35:43everybody wants to live in Apex, right?

1:35:45So, they come and they move here. You

1:35:47you end up with more assets. And so at

1:35:49some point you'll have to reconsider uh

1:35:51to spend more money on the new roads

1:35:53that come in and then you know continue

1:35:55on with those maintenance activities

1:35:57that we mentioned the rejuvenators

1:35:59microsurfacing rehabilitation and the uh

1:36:02the end goal here is to maintain the

1:36:05network at the highest level of service

1:36:07for the least cost and and you all are

1:36:09doing that uh with the program that um

1:36:11that's being offered to town. So I will

1:36:15open it up for questions.

1:36:17>> Thank you Steve. Great report questions.

1:36:19>> Yeah, I have a question. Um, could you

1:36:22speak if you go back to the slide where

1:36:23you mentioned the types of um pavement

1:36:25treatments we have? You got the your

1:36:26rejuvenation, your micro service.

1:36:28>> Yeah. Your rehabs.

1:36:29>> Um, my experience has been when most

1:36:31people in the community hear about a

1:36:34street project, they assume they're

1:36:35getting a rehab.

1:36:37>> Um, but most of the community doesn't.

1:36:39They typically they're getting

1:36:40microsurfacing. And um, can I say this?

1:36:45the the feedback sometimes isn't great

1:36:46about the microsurfacing product. Can

1:36:48you speak a little bit to about exactly

1:36:50what it is, why it's still good, and how

1:36:53it's different from the rehab that

1:36:55people may be expecting because people

1:36:57call me and they're like, "Hey, they did

1:36:58a terrible job here. What's going on?

1:37:00Come to my neighborhood and look at it."

1:37:01Well, that's what microsering is. But I

1:37:03don't know if you have you heard that

1:37:04before or am I just

1:37:05>> No. Yeah, absolutely. I've I have heard

1:37:08that. And you know, some micro jobs look

1:37:10better than other micro jobs, right? And

1:37:13um so the the one thing about when you

1:37:16pave a road, it looks the best on day

1:37:18one. Everybody wants a newly paved

1:37:20street, but we can't afford to pave

1:37:22every street every time or you know. So

1:37:25microsurfacing could look the worst on

1:37:27day one, but over time it it wears in

1:37:30when it gets to traffic on it. So what

1:37:32microsurfacing is, it's a thin lift.

1:37:35It's to protect the surface. It's an

1:37:37emulsified asphalt with a little bit of

1:37:39stone. it goes down brown and then when

1:37:42it sets up it turns black and you can

1:37:44put traffic on it within an hour. And I

1:37:46think the answer to the folks that say,

1:37:48"Hey, how come I didn't get my street

1:37:50paved?" You just It's about the

1:37:52education process that you have to tell

1:37:54them that here's why we're doing this at

1:37:57some point. Will will we mill and

1:37:58overlay their road? Probably. So, but

1:38:01hopefully we're pushing it out far

1:38:03enough, right? And so, but and that's

1:38:05what the microsurfacing does. It's it's

1:38:08a lot cheaper, you know? It's a for the

1:38:10report we it's $7.50 a square yard where

1:38:14versus for a rehab it's uh $30 a square

1:38:18yard.

1:38:19>> But I hear you say that a microsurface

1:38:21road kind of settles over time as it

1:38:23gets driven on because the initial

1:38:24people say it's like grainy and stony

1:38:27and not laid down. Okay.

1:38:29>> Yeah. Yeah. So when you know when when

1:38:31they do a really good job sometimes you

1:38:33can't tell but sometimes it just it it

1:38:36can depend. But but over time though

1:38:39when the tires get on it and they they

1:38:41run over it that it will wear in and

1:38:43folks won't notice as notice as much.

1:38:46The people who live on the street will

1:38:47always notice it because they were

1:38:49complaining about it. So, but it's it's

1:38:51one of whenever you do preservation,

1:38:53you're always going to have people

1:38:54complaining about the treatment.

1:38:59>> Yeah, sure.

1:39:00>> So, when I uh first started, I went to

1:39:02some of the the microsurfacing streets

1:39:03that we did last year and um you know,

1:39:06they they do look different. they look

1:39:08better than, you know, maybe some of the

1:39:09ones we just did this year as far as the

1:39:11debris. Um, and like Steve was saying,

1:39:13getting drive driven on and kind of

1:39:15getting some of those imperfections

1:39:17maybe kneaded out, especially like when

1:39:18it gets to the next summer and it gets

1:39:20hotter and more cars are driving on it.

1:39:23Um, it becomes a little more malible.

1:39:25Uh, same same thing happens with new

1:39:26pavement, too. Um, but I will say that

1:39:29we are um we we put out um we mail

1:39:34flyers to every resident that lives in

1:39:36the community. Uh we're always looking

1:39:38for feedback on ways that we can

1:39:39outreach better, but we do um put flyers

1:39:41out and we have our contractor put out

1:39:43notices as well with folks.

1:39:45>> Thank you. No,

1:39:46>> I think I think the message that'll

1:39:47improve with time is an important way to

1:39:49get out there.

1:39:50>> Yeah. I'm just curious. So when you

1:39:53drive on some roads like especially

1:39:55highway, right? your curve feels like

1:39:59just small bumps with each you know um

1:40:02almost like all the time like so is that

1:40:05microsurfacing I mean no is that

1:40:08microsurfacing

1:40:09>> uh

1:40:10>> I mean is that the road was

1:40:12microsurfaced

1:40:13>> yeah so so microsurfacing is not going

1:40:16to improve like if it had a ride quality

1:40:18issue prior to the microsurfacing the

1:40:20microsurfacing doesn't improve the ride

1:40:22quality so if it had a good ride quality

1:40:25to begin with it'll it'll continue that

1:40:27way. But when when it's rough before

1:40:29it's just not going to fix that. So

1:40:31yeah, it it does it doesn't and at least

1:40:33my experience is is that you don't

1:40:35you're not feel it's not like you're

1:40:37kind of bouncing along on the road.

1:40:39>> Yeah. Like when you know uh part of your

1:40:42lens you there uh for example two lens

1:40:45right one lens is kind of normal another

1:40:48lens like very you know lots of so

1:40:51that's when you drive on the road like

1:40:54constantly like that. So I'm just

1:40:56wondering what you know what did people

1:41:00you know uh do to that road it I thought

1:41:03you know I saw the picture I wondering

1:41:05if it's microsurface.

1:41:08Oh. Uh, yeah. It's hard to say exactly

1:41:10what the sub just uh they were built

1:41:13maybe one half at a time versus the

1:41:15other half. Um, it's hard to say exactly

1:41:18what um would cause something like that,

1:41:20but just the way different soils

1:41:21underneath the bases

1:41:23>> um are reacting over time. [laughter]

1:41:27>> But especially highways, it's also the

1:41:29type of traffic, right? We're having

1:41:30traffic t in the right lane, right? And

1:41:32so that lane deteriorates a little bit

1:41:34faster than the the left lanes.

1:41:38Okay, thank you.

1:41:40[clears throat]

1:41:41>> All right, any other questions or

1:41:42comments?

1:41:42>> One quick one. Uh, thank you for the

1:41:44presentation. Um, and could you tell us

1:41:47again which municipality has the best

1:41:49roads that you've seen in your career?

1:41:52>> The town.

1:41:53>> Is that town of Apex? I just want uh

1:41:55maybe we could put that on the flyer

1:41:56when we're [laughter]

1:41:58um I want to just ask you a quick

1:42:00general question zooming out and not the

1:42:03next year, the next two years, but

1:42:05long-term just in terms of being

1:42:07proactive. Um concerns about extreme

1:42:10heat. Um it's not going away. It's only

1:42:13going to get worse and that directly

1:42:15impacts infrastructure. any are we doing

1:42:18everything like you folks are experts

1:42:20and you're forecasting and so you know

1:42:22what or does that is there something

1:42:24that we should be anticipating or being

1:42:26proactive about at this juncture

1:42:28>> you want to talk about the titanium

1:42:30>> yeah um so so this year as part of our

1:42:32rejuvenator program we're doing a pilot

1:42:34for um it's a titanium dioxide product

1:42:37that basically goes within the

1:42:40rejuvenator we do every other year so

1:42:42it's additive to what we do currently so

1:42:44we get the pavement um preservation. We

1:42:47get the preservation, but also the TiO2

1:42:50is kind of like a um uh it's kind of

1:42:53like sunscreen. So, it it the theory is

1:42:55that it reflects some of the heat the

1:42:57heat island. So, at night, you know, the

1:42:58heat island effect is not as as severe

1:43:00as it maybe would have been. Um so,

1:43:03we're p we have a pilot for that coming

1:43:05up and you know, we can we'll do some

1:43:08measurements and studies on it.

1:43:09>> Excellent.

1:43:10>> Thank you. Figured you folks are on top

1:43:11of it.

1:43:12>> And also, it eats the tailpipe

1:43:14emissions.

1:43:18It really does. It does.

1:43:19>> What's the catch? [clears throat]

1:43:20>> Yeah.

1:43:21>> Expensive.

1:43:22>> It's It's I think it is it double the

1:43:24cost.

1:43:24>> Yeah, it costs about double.

1:43:25>> Oh, there it is. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter]

1:43:28>> So, that's what we're starting as the

1:43:29pilot. Yeah.

1:43:30>> An ounce of prevention is worth a pound

1:43:32of cures like my grandpa used to say.

1:43:34>> Yeah. All right. Good deal. Thank you.

1:43:36>> Thank you. Anybody else?

1:43:40>> Thanks, Steve. Hey, thank you.

1:43:41Appreciate your work, man.

1:43:47All right, we move now to public forum.

1:43:49Mr. Clerk, if you could read the process

1:43:52statement, please.

1:43:52>> Sure. Uh, the current public

1:43:54participation policy states individual

1:43:57comments are limited to three minutes.

1:43:59The public forum and comment period

1:44:01shall not exceed 36 minutes or 12

1:44:03individual speakers, whichever comes

1:44:05first. If the signup list exceeds 12

1:44:08individual speakers or 36 minutes per

1:44:10the adopted policy, the town clerk will

1:44:13prioritize the list of speakers by those

1:44:15who have not spoken in the last 30 days.

1:44:18After those individuals have spoken, the

1:44:20list will continue in the order and

1:44:22individuals signed up until the 12

1:44:24individual speakers or 36 minutes is

1:44:27reached. Individuals who still wish to

1:44:29speak will still be given an opportunity

1:44:32to do so at the conclusion of the

1:44:34business portion of the meeting

1:44:35immediately before close session.

1:44:38Speakers are asked to give their name

1:44:40and address for the record. They will

1:44:41see a series of lights on the timer in

1:44:44front of them. At the 45se second mark,

1:44:46the light will change colors to yellow.

1:44:49And when your time is up, you will hear

1:44:50a buzzer and the red light will flash.

1:44:55>> All right. Thank you so much. We have

1:44:57six speakers on the public forum. We'll

1:44:59start with Rosemary Sowski Dolls.

1:45:09>> Good evening. Rosemary Simitski Daws

1:45:125128 Beck Drive Fugway Arena. These are

1:45:15key takeaways from six data center

1:45:17topics presented by staff or experts

1:45:19during the moratorum. Energy. While data

1:45:22centers account for only 30% of new

1:45:24projects, they represent about 80% of

1:45:26projected new electric demand. Economic

1:45:29impact. Net fiscal benefit is moderate.

1:45:32Environmental impacts. Engineers

1:45:35emphasize many complex factors need to

1:45:37be considered for specific environmental

1:45:39impacts on resources and health. Noise.

1:45:43Data centers generate subtle

1:45:45lowfrequency infrasound that's been used

1:45:48for crowd control causing physical and

1:45:51psychological distress, negative health

1:45:53effects, and his mitigation challenged.

1:45:57Town council must go experience data

1:45:59center alley in Northern Virginia.

1:46:01Perhaps Randy Vosper can be your tour

1:46:04guide since he was Stafford County

1:46:05administrator. A year after landing in

1:46:08Apex, he set the table for Nutelli's 300

1:46:11megawatt digital campus.

1:46:13The Nutellis are from Maryland. Was

1:46:15Randy acquainted with the Nutellis up

1:46:17there and involved with Stafford

1:46:19County's massive data center complex

1:46:22approved five months after his

1:46:24departure? People there are irate.

1:46:28It should be a road trip to Northern

1:46:30Virginia so council gets to see the

1:46:32devastating effects of severe drought on

1:46:35bodies of water supplying our needs.

1:46:38water with insane overdevelopment

1:46:41especially all Vidia projects including

1:46:43a water park. This demonstrates

1:46:46dangerous irresponsible stewardship of

1:46:48our water resources while assuring us

1:46:51everything is awesome. So why is a

1:46:53search charge on domestic drinking water

1:46:55and use of reclaimed water being

1:46:57considered

1:46:59under land use for data center

1:47:01decommissioning? It cites restoration of

1:47:04land. The farm in New Hill could never

1:47:06be restored for agriculture because of

1:47:08toxic soil and air pollution. Why not

1:47:11use community investment funds to

1:47:14purchase and preserve farmlands and

1:47:15wildlife habitats? What community

1:47:18investment could be better than that? A

1:47:21moratorium is supposed to be a

1:47:22suspension of an ongoing or planned

1:47:24activity giving the town time to prepare

1:47:27for the next developer. But Apex has

1:47:29already been working on amending the UDO

1:47:32allowing data centers. A simple fix is

1:47:35to put data centers on the use table,

1:47:37leaving all the zoning cells blank.

1:47:40Done. No data centers permitted. But

1:47:43that's not happening. If you make a pros

1:47:46and cons list for hypers scale data

1:47:48centers, the cons list is long and I

1:47:51can't find one pro. The question I have

1:47:54is qui bono. Who really benefits?

1:47:58Certainly not the residents. I believe

1:48:01this question deserves serious

1:48:02investigation.

1:48:04Thank you.

1:48:08>> Jordan Smith followed by Chad Z.

1:48:17[cough and clears throat]

1:48:22>> I'll be honest, this is my first time

1:48:24ever coming here, so I don't even know

1:48:25if I'm doing it right.

1:48:26>> You're good. Go ahead. Um,

1:48:29good evening council. My name is Jordan.

1:48:32I am 14 years old and I'm resident here

1:48:34in Apex. Today I just wanted to bring up

1:48:37some environmental issues of Apex. I

1:48:41care deeply about the environment and my

1:48:43life is pretty much dedicated

1:48:46to it. Nobody tells me I just do it. It

1:48:49is heartbreaking and it takes a toll on

1:48:51me. Whether it's projects like near

1:48:55Middle Creek or Verdia or some other

1:48:58places, it destroys vital wildlife and

1:49:02homes for bugs and life itself.

1:49:04I feel like Birdia is creating

1:49:08an insanely sad displacement of the

1:49:10animals. I stepped outside of my home

1:49:13and I see countless

1:49:16things I've never seen before. I see

1:49:19bugs I've never seen before. I hear

1:49:21birds I've never heard before and I live

1:49:23in the suburbs and I never see life like

1:49:27this.

1:49:29I think we don't need to make artificial

1:49:31pieces places for animals and bugs like

1:49:34planting

1:49:36new things to make a habitat for them. I

1:49:38just think we need to leave what we have

1:49:41and keep it. Every single tree creates a

1:49:45vital habitat even.

1:49:49But yeah,

1:49:51I spend every waking weekend moment of

1:49:53my life taking care and helping the

1:49:55earth and heal its wounds.

1:50:12I wish I could do more. I feel really

1:50:15helpless in my situation

1:50:18because there's really not much I can

1:50:19do. I don't live I don't have my own

1:50:21land. I'm speaking for a lot of people.

1:50:24I feel like

1:50:26and I wanted to add that many people

1:50:30think just like me,

1:50:33but they think there's nothing they can

1:50:35do or some people don't care enough. I

1:50:39really just wish that it was a bigger

1:50:41priority about the environment because

1:50:44after all it does keep us alive

1:50:47and you're never getting back what you

1:50:49destroy.

1:50:52To wrap this up, I just

1:51:00I don't even know what I wrote, but I

1:51:02just want to wrap it up.

1:51:03>> Good job. Thanks for getting it. Good

1:51:05job, man.

1:51:06>> [applause]

1:51:08>> We'll give you a call with Jordan. We

1:51:09got your number right here. Thank you so

1:51:10much for speaking, Chad.

1:51:16>> Uh Chad Zour, one5 Copper Ridge Court.

1:51:19Um Apex is awesome. It's It's absolutely

1:51:22wonderful. The roads are You can see

1:51:24they're good. They left, but I was going

1:51:26to tell them that it's wonderful to

1:51:27drive around. Uh I am responsible for

1:51:30many people moving here because I won't

1:51:32shut up about it, including friends from

1:51:34preschool. uh who now I share a backyard

1:51:37with and they have to put up with my kid

1:51:38playing soccer. Um I do not like the new

1:51:43cameras that have been put up. I that's

1:51:45why I'm here. I'm here to talk about

1:51:47Flock. Uh there's a couple people I need

1:51:50to address. Um Councilman Zigerman and

1:51:53Council New um I do not trust large

1:51:58corporations. I do not trust for-profit

1:52:01companies to take the the proper

1:52:04guidance into account when they are

1:52:07building guide rails for themselves.

1:52:09Every single ALPR company is for profit.

1:52:12Uh I'm not specifically talking about

1:52:14Flock. We we know what the CEO says. Uh

1:52:16we are talking about companies who are

1:52:19driven to push contracts. Uh I'm

1:52:21semi-retired from sales myself. I have

1:52:24been in the insurance industry forever

1:52:26and watched people next to me lie

1:52:28through their teeth time and time again.

1:52:30Uh these are people who want to go

1:52:33around you when it comes to getting

1:52:36things in place. These were put up

1:52:38obviously without a a vote across the

1:52:41board. This was not sent through uh the

1:52:44elections we're so proud to to talk

1:52:46about in the beginning. All of a sudden

1:52:47we saw cameras which are filming us. Uh

1:52:50I'm not a paranoid person. I'm not

1:52:51particularly worried about them. I was

1:52:53saying earlier, I'm on record as one of

1:52:55the witnesses to one of the worst crimes

1:52:57we had in Apex this year. Uh Apex is

1:53:00still the best town I can think of. I am

1:53:03proud when I drive from Kerry to Apex.

1:53:06It makes me happy to be here. Uh

1:53:08Councilman, you you made a statement

1:53:10earlier talking about the SNAP program.

1:53:12Uh I could tell you do not like having

1:53:16to put a million dollars of our money

1:53:18into fraud that probably isn't there.

1:53:20Uh, it's talking heads who want to see

1:53:22people who are suffering already face

1:53:25the consequences for a small amount of

1:53:27fraud. The the phrase you used was no

1:53:29operational influence. That is what

1:53:31ALPRs are. The the people who control

1:53:34them are not the people in this room.

1:53:36The people who control them and have

1:53:38access to them are not the people who

1:53:40live in Apex. They are not the officers

1:53:43who we can talk to, who we trust in our

1:53:45community. They are people who can come

1:53:48and look at information that they will

1:53:50use in any way they want with absolutely

1:53:53no parameters that we can set to control

1:53:56them. The only way to do it is to not

1:53:58have the cameras to begin with. It is

1:54:00impossible to control these government

1:54:02agencies. It is impossible to control

1:54:04individuals who are stalking their

1:54:06ex-wives or stalking some girl who

1:54:08turned them down at the bar. We see it

1:54:10every single day with people misusing

1:54:13these programs. Please get them out of

1:54:15Apex.

1:54:18>> Speaker [applause]

1:54:20Kazalino followed by Linda

1:54:36Don Kazalino 3632 Bosco Road. Good

1:54:39evening. who is watching whom.

1:54:43In 2023, Apex approved a three-year

1:54:47Microsoft contract.

1:54:50Um, on October 13, 2026, council

1:54:54approved another three-year Microsoft

1:54:56contract, and that was through consent

1:54:59agenda. Here's why I'm asking the

1:55:02question.

1:55:03Terry Mafy's 2020 and 2021 ethics

1:55:08filings identify Microsoft

1:55:11as his employer and disclose Microsoft

1:55:15stock salary and dividend income. His

1:55:19annual filings from 2020 through 2026

1:55:23also list his role on the Capitol Area

1:55:27MO metropolitan

1:55:30um planning organization transportation

1:55:32advisory committee.

1:55:35That raises a fair public question. How

1:55:38are potential conflicts

1:55:41identified and managed when council

1:55:44makes major decisions involving

1:55:47technology,

1:55:49transportation, and development?

1:55:52Mr. Mafy also chairs the responsible

1:55:56development committee and serves as

1:55:59council liaison to the environmental

1:56:01advisory committee. And tonight we heard

1:56:04the IT task force. These roles touch

1:56:08land use, infrastructure, and

1:56:10environmental policy.

1:56:13Look at peak plan 2055. Look at Veridia.

1:56:17These decisions will shape apex for

1:56:20generations. The public deserves clear

1:56:23facts before decisions are made,

1:56:27not explanations after the fact. Now,

1:56:30the data center moratorum. We are six

1:56:34months into a one-year pause.

1:56:37The town has a study process.

1:56:40Fine.

1:56:42But where's the clear public progress

1:56:45report? What has been learned?

1:56:49What protections are being considered?

1:56:53I request a meaningful public update at

1:56:58every town council meeting until the

1:57:01study concludes. When progress is not

1:57:04made public, it raises questions about

1:57:07what the public is being told.

1:57:10Publish the Microsoft and IT contracts

1:57:14costs. Report the data cent's progress.

1:57:19Make the safeguards before major land

1:57:21use decisions clear. Apex and its

1:57:25neighboring communities need to coexist

1:57:28with growth, not become part of a

1:57:30taxpayer funded experiment serving

1:57:34private development interests. Thank

1:57:36you,

1:57:41Linda Gera.

1:57:53Good evening, Linda Cafero. Data center

1:57:56promises and tactics. More jobs after

1:57:59construction and completion. There are

1:58:01few jobs required to operate the

1:58:04facility. Tax revenue promise. These

1:58:07trillion dollar companies have

1:58:09departments dedicated to forming

1:58:11strategies to minimize financial

1:58:14investments like renting instead of

1:58:16buying servers so there is no property

1:58:18tax. Formation of LLC's to minimize the

1:58:22considerable risk of data centers in

1:58:24case of bankruptcy. What services must

1:58:27the town provide the operate to in the

1:58:30operation of the data center? Fire,

1:58:33police, utilities. There has been no

1:58:35true costbenefit analysis.

1:58:39Air pollution. Speaking to coalitions in

1:58:42Virginia, there are already many costly

1:58:45problems. A 300 to 350 megawatt project

1:58:49would need about 125 train car sized

1:58:54diesel generators permanently stationed

1:58:57at the site.

1:58:59Uh no nitrogen oxide forever. PAS

1:59:04chemicals uh particullet become

1:59:07airborne. Plumes travel miles causing

1:59:10spikes in respiratory problems, cancers,

1:59:12and other serious lifehortening health

1:59:15conditions. In one event, a malfunction

1:59:18caused heavy soot to be released into

1:59:20the air. That's in Virginia. Fourth of

1:59:22July groups in Virginia must monitor air

1:59:25and test for chemicals as well as

1:59:26biocides that treat cooling water.

1:59:31Water. You may hear data centers use

1:59:33less than 1% of the entire state's

1:59:36water. A midsize DC would very well suck

1:59:40up 25% of the town's or aquifers

1:59:43capacity. If a devil upper uses

1:59:48traditional evaporative cooling, which

1:59:51uses less electricity, water draining on

1:59:54the community will be staggering. Water

1:59:56demand for a 300 to 400 megawatt is

1:59:59estimated to be one and a half to two

2:00:02million gallons per day. Currently, 97%

2:00:06of the US data centers draw from

2:00:08municipal and our drought conditions are

2:00:10getting worse. Water demand may far

2:00:13surpass present- day estimates. Our

2:00:16families are threatened by this

2:00:17technology and we shouldn't be forced to

2:00:20pay for it. Thank you.

2:00:22>> Thank you, speaker. Terresa Ganley,

2:00:24finally final speaker.

2:00:39Good evening. Terry Ganley. I live in

2:00:42Jordan Manners in New Hill.

2:00:45A data center next to a nuclear power

2:00:48plant. Let's think about that for a

2:00:50moment.

2:00:52At a time when data centers are becoming

2:00:54targets in modern warfare, our town

2:00:57council is considering allowing a

2:00:59hyperscale data center adjacent to a

2:01:02nuclear facility.

2:01:04How can that possibly be considered

2:01:06responsible planning?

2:01:08Recent attacks on data centers across

2:01:11five countries have exposed a new

2:01:13reality.

2:01:15These facilities no longer simply house

2:01:18technology.

2:01:19They have become strategic targets.

2:01:23Even major technology companies are

2:01:25reconsidering where and how to build

2:01:28these facilities.

2:01:30So why isn't our town council doing the

2:01:32same?

2:01:34You have the authority to prevent this

2:01:36risk before it becomes our reality.

2:01:40You don't need another study and you

2:01:43certainly don't need another

2:01:44subcommittee and you certainly don't

2:01:46need to spend more taxpayer dollars

2:01:48debating a project that we have told you

2:01:50over and over and over again that we

2:01:52oppose. You simply need to say no. Do

2:01:56not amend the UDO to permit data

2:01:58centers. Do not resone residential land

2:02:01for industrial use. and do not place the

2:02:04interests of outside developers and

2:02:06technology billionaires above the safety

2:02:08and well-being of the people who elected

2:02:10you.

2:02:12You know that we are your constituents.

2:02:15You've heard it over and over again.

2:02:16They are not. The residents of New Hill

2:02:19have spoken repeatedly, clearly,

2:02:23unequivocally.

2:02:24We don't want a hyperscale data center

2:02:26in our neighborhood.

2:02:28And here's what makes this decision so

2:02:30really simple. Protecting New Hill

2:02:33requires no new legislation,

2:02:36no additional spending, and no further

2:02:38delays.

2:02:40It requires only the courage to leave

2:02:43the existing protections in place. You

2:02:46cannot claim to prioritize public safety

2:02:49while knowingly introducing an avoidable

2:02:52risk. The question is no longer whether

2:02:55you understand our concerns.

2:02:57The question is whether you're willing

2:02:59to act on them. Protect New Hill. We

2:03:02live there. Reject the data center. And

2:03:06I thank you for listening.

2:03:09[applause]

2:03:10>> All right. That closes out public forum.

2:03:13Thanks to all who came out to speak

2:03:15tonight.

2:03:17We move now to

2:03:20public hearings. Do we need to get a

2:03:23motion on the other one?

2:03:24>> Yes.

2:03:25>> Okay. All right. Motion to continue

2:03:27public hearing one and two till December

2:03:3117th.

2:03:31>> All right,

2:03:33that motion gray second may approach

2:03:36him. All right, any discussion? All in

2:03:38favor say I.

2:03:39>> I motion carries.

2:03:43All right, we move to public hearing

2:03:44three reszoning case. Jesse comments.

2:04:08>> Good evening, town council. This is

2:04:10reasonzoning case 26 CZ2 Jesse um common

2:04:14p amendment.

2:04:16The project site is located in the south

2:04:19area of town

2:04:21and it is um located east of highway 55

2:04:26south of uh pristine water drive and

2:04:29north of Boblet Road. The site is 64.37

2:04:34acres

2:04:38and this plan unit development um was

2:04:40approved back in 2006. So it's uh 06

2:04:45CZ26.

2:04:47And looking at the area for the adjacent

2:04:49um zoning, Light Industrial to the

2:04:52north, which is the Dixie Pipeline

2:04:56Company, and then to the east

2:05:00is uh Light Industrial, which is vacant

2:05:03land. To the south is a plan unit

2:05:06development. That's Trinity Hood. It's

2:05:07vacant currently. And then to the west

2:05:11is plan commercial conditional zoning

2:05:14and uh as well as light industrial. And

2:05:17there's the uh Apex

2:05:20public safety station number four. And

2:05:23then um gas and fuel cell on this side

2:05:26for the contractor's uh yard with

2:05:28storage which is the use. And then of

2:05:30course the dark purple is um Veridia

2:05:37and the proposed um zoning is plan unit

2:05:40development conditional zoning with an

2:05:42amendment.

2:05:44the land use designation. Um, west the

2:05:48western side there's a creek as you can

2:05:50see there's this uh broken line is

2:05:52commercial services on the west side and

2:05:54then industrial employment and office

2:05:57employment on the uh east side of the

2:06:00creek.

2:06:02The applicant uh conducted the first

2:06:04neighborhood meeting on February 11th,

2:06:072026 and then their second neighborhood

2:06:09meeting was July 13, 2026. and the

2:06:12neighborhood um packet is um the

2:06:15neighborhood meeting reports are

2:06:17included in your packet.

2:06:20So looking at the existing conditions,

2:06:22mature trees and this creek that's

2:06:25running through the middle of the

2:06:27project, you can see the apex public

2:06:30safety station over here. There's that

2:06:32section that's in the northwestern

2:06:34corner. And then um to the to the east

2:06:39is another creek. And you can tell

2:06:41that's the flood plane within that area.

2:06:48And this slide is showing the existing

2:06:51conditions with the transportation plan.

2:06:54Uh Jesse Drive is required to be

2:06:57constructed as a four-lane thoroughfare

2:06:59and that has um a 10-ft side path on

2:07:03each side.

2:07:06East William Street or NC55 is required

2:07:09to be improved to a sixlane super street

2:07:10and that's 10 with a 10- foot um side

2:07:13path on either side and the super street

2:07:16also includes um the reduced conflict

2:07:19intersection.

2:07:21A major collector street with bike lanes

2:07:24is to the south of Jesse the future

2:07:28Jesse Drive and then a minor collector

2:07:31on the other side. And then looking over

2:07:34on Jesse Drive will uh extend back. You

2:07:37can see this portion of Veridia. And

2:07:40then on the back side of these um

2:07:43parcels along Highway 55 is a future

2:07:47major collector with the roundabout.

2:07:53Now some uh project site background for

2:07:56this area. This was reszoned again in

2:07:592006, approved in 2007.

2:08:03Uh Jesse Commons PE was approved full

2:08:06movement intersection. And then June

2:08:092008, the town of Apex uh public safety

2:08:12station number four, just that portion

2:08:15in this uh Jesse Pud was constructed.

2:08:19And then in February 2019, Highway 55

2:08:22changed to six lane super street with a

2:08:24grade separated interchange right at the

2:08:27um 55 and Jesse Drive intersection.

2:08:32And then August 2023, the future grade

2:08:34separated interchange at 55 and Jesse

2:08:37Drive was removed at the request from

2:08:39development interests on the east side

2:08:41of Highway 55 and added a future uh

2:08:45reduced conflict intersection RCI at

2:08:48that um intersection.

2:08:51They added the future major collector

2:08:53street and uh reline future Jesse drive

2:08:57extension for consistency as stated in

2:08:59the Jesse drive feasibility study uh

2:09:02report.

2:09:05So the Jesse Commons PUD has a land use

2:09:08plan and they've separated into

2:09:10commercial and office areas um

2:09:12identified C1, C2, 01 and O2. They also

2:09:16the putt includes um corresponding

2:09:19design controls.

2:09:23So the proposed Jesse Commons PUD

2:09:25amendments is to increase the square

2:09:28footage um of the office to a total of

2:09:3360,000 square feet. So going from

2:09:37180,000 to 240,000

2:09:40square feet in the 01 uh area. So let me

2:09:43back up on the plan. area 01 is right

2:09:46here. Now, during the planning board um

2:09:50meeting, that square footage was

2:09:53distributed between 01 and O2, but after

2:09:56the plan planning board meeting, um the

2:09:58applicant revised it to have all of the

2:10:01um 60,000 square foot addition in 01.

2:10:08And also you can see um maximum building

2:10:12height would be kept at 48 ft in each

2:10:16section.

2:10:20So the

2:10:22um increase of the building square

2:10:24footage triggered the traffic impact

2:10:26analysis focusing on um NC55 and Jesse

2:10:30Drive intersection. So they looked at

2:10:31two different scenarios. Scenario one is

2:10:34a full movement access um at the

2:10:37intersection

2:10:39and this would provide um dual westbound

2:10:43left turn lanes and install the traffic

2:10:47signal for that full movement

2:10:49intersection configuration. And then

2:10:51scenario number two is the reduced

2:10:53conflict intersection the super street.

2:10:57And this is um

2:11:00as far as all the lanes that would have

2:11:02to be installed. Install a traffic

2:11:03signal to accommodate the RCA rci

2:11:06configuration and then the NC55 at

2:11:09U-turn north of Jesse Drive extension.

2:11:12And that would include a constructed

2:11:15U-turn fold on 55 north of Jesse Drive

2:11:19extension and also um a northbound

2:11:23Uturn lanes on 55 each with 200 ft of

2:11:26storage. and install the traffic signal.

2:11:30So the proposed Jesse Commons PUB

2:11:33amendments also include um the scenario

2:11:37one and the conditions following are set

2:11:41up for what the applicant is proposing

2:11:47and this is shown as um NC55 and then

2:11:52Jesse drive.

2:11:57So the Jesse Drive extension, they would

2:12:00be uh constructing that within their

2:12:02property according to the transportation

2:12:05plan. And then NC55, widen the NC55

2:12:09dedicate public rideway for the extent

2:12:11of the project frontage for the eastern

2:12:14half of that um 94 foot backtoback

2:12:17sixlane thoroughfare.

2:12:19And that would include that 10 foot side

2:12:21path on the east side.

2:12:26So, there are several uh access points

2:12:30and they're proposing uh an access off

2:12:33of 55. This is site um access A

2:12:38B and then intersection C. I do want to

2:12:42note that um that site driveway should

2:12:45be showing a left turn lane and shared

2:12:48through right turn lane. So the

2:12:51condition that the applicant is

2:12:53proposing is is not matching this um

2:12:57figure which has a restriction of

2:13:00movement at side access C. that they are

2:13:03proposing a full um intersection

2:13:08and then side driveway access D and then

2:13:12one more um access off of 55 which is a

2:13:16right turn a right out at site access F.

2:13:26And this shows um again site access D E

2:13:31and then that right in right up at site

2:13:34access F.

2:13:36They also are including a transit

2:13:39easement. So we'll construct concrete

2:13:41flatwork [clears throat] for the town

2:13:42standards for that bus stop.

2:13:49And now uh the next few slides are the

2:13:53Apex Transportation Infrastructure

2:13:55Development recommendations. And I'm

2:13:57going to have Jessica Mccclur from um T

2:14:01will go over those recommendations.

2:14:10>> Mayor Council, good evening. Um going to

2:14:13go over a couple slides here with you

2:14:15with staff recommendations and kind of

2:14:17point out some key differences

2:14:20um between our recommendations and the

2:14:22proposed

2:14:24um the proposed conditions.

2:14:27So overall we'll start with the biggest

2:14:30um intersection if you will. Jesse Drive

2:14:32at NC55 staff is recommending the

2:14:35reduced conflict intersection. That's

2:14:37scenario two in the TIA. There's a

2:14:41couple different reasons um that we're

2:14:46recommending this. Uh it's consistent

2:14:48with the transportation plan, the Apex

2:14:50transportation plan, as well as the

2:14:52Jesse Drive feasibility study that was

2:14:54performed a couple years ago. And it'll

2:14:57also prepare NC55

2:14:59to match the s or match the

2:15:02transportation plan of the six lane

2:15:04super street.

2:15:08Just a little bit of description here

2:15:09for what are we talking about with the

2:15:11Super Street or an RCI. I will use them

2:15:13interchangeably. I am sorry. Um it one

2:15:16you might be familiar with is out at

2:15:18Sweetwater at 64 in Richardson Road at

2:15:21Jensen. It's essentially takes the minor

2:15:24approaches, pushes everybody to the

2:15:27right, in which case you can carry on.

2:15:29If you're going that direction, you can

2:15:31perform a Uturn at the next um the next

2:15:36available medium break and you can

2:15:38access the through movement by turning

2:15:41right or continuing along west. Um

2:15:45another place that these are all along

2:15:46is the NC55 bypass in Holly Springs.

2:15:49They have a good number of those. Um so

2:15:52when we say RCI or Super Street, this is

2:15:55what we are envisioning on 55 at Jesse

2:15:58Drive.

2:16:01Another place where this is getting

2:16:02started to uh be under construction is

2:16:06DOT project HL07

2:16:08down north is slide right here. And so

2:16:12this is down at technology drive where

2:16:14East William Street splits off to go

2:16:18down to Holly Springs. DOT will be

2:16:20converting that intersection now to an

2:16:23RCI with U-turn locations. And as you

2:16:26move up towards the site towards Apex,

2:16:30um Vidia is also installing

2:16:34um some reduced conflict intersections

2:16:36along the corridor.

2:16:39A lot of text. I won't read it all, I

2:16:41promise you. Um, our recommendation,

2:16:43staff's recommendation for NC55 at Jesse

2:16:46Drive is, like I said, the rci. This

2:16:49would consist of dual right turn lanes.

2:16:52When Jesse Drive comes into NC55,

2:16:56the exclusive northbound right turn lane

2:16:58at the intersection. Um, that's an

2:17:00agreement with the applicant. The

2:17:03additional third northbound through lane

2:17:05would be the front edge widening

2:17:07requirement and that would go from their

2:17:08southern property line and drop as a

2:17:11right turn into the site driveway A. Um

2:17:15staff is recommending a third southbound

2:17:18through lane. Um in our recommendation

2:17:21originally it would be 1,200 ft north of

2:17:24site access a where Vidia's widening has

2:17:27terminated and to the approved VIA

2:17:30widening to the south of the site. So,

2:17:32it would be closing that gap and

2:17:33providing additional capacity for

2:17:36southbound. Um, this would also include

2:17:39dual southbound left turn lanes from

2:17:42NC55 onto Jesse Drive and the northern

2:17:46U-turn location, which would be 600

2:17:50uhish feet to the north. That would

2:17:52provide dual U-turn lanes and

2:17:54signalization to complete the traffic

2:17:57movements there.

2:18:00If

2:18:02off-site rideway cannot be acquired

2:18:04according to the terms of condition two,

2:18:06which I will show you on the next slide

2:18:08shortly, then staff is recommending the

2:18:12following construction, which is

2:18:15terminating one of the lanes as a right

2:18:17turn lane and having dual left turn

2:18:19lanes coming off of Jesse Drive,

2:18:22constructing the full movement

2:18:23intersection. The additional third

2:18:26northbound lane remains the same. The

2:18:28northbound right turn lane is the same.

2:18:31Staff is still requesting a southbound

2:18:33third through lane from site access A to

2:18:37the approved fronted widening for Vidia

2:18:39to the south. Again, subject to the

2:18:41condition I'll show you in just one

2:18:43moment. And dual southbound left turn

2:18:46lanes and installation of a traffic

2:18:49signal.

2:18:55The condition that we're referring to is

2:18:57if off-site ride-of-way cannot be

2:19:00obtained through good faith efforts and

2:19:02private negotiations and the town is

2:19:05unable or unwilling to help with the

2:19:07acquisition of property,

2:19:09then we are asking for a fee in lie for

2:19:13the part of the improvements of the

2:19:14Super Street that cannot be completed at

2:19:17this time, which includes permitting

2:19:20fees in construction and acquisition.

2:19:23um subject to an engineer's estimate.

2:19:30I'll move along to the driveways just

2:19:33briefly. As Jude mentioned, site access

2:19:35C is that one in the middle. Staff is

2:19:38recommending that the northbound

2:19:40approach be restricted to right turns

2:19:43out, no throughs and no lefts. Um, due

2:19:48to the spacing of that intersection,

2:19:50it's about 700, I believe, maybe 700 and

2:19:53change from NC55.

2:19:57And since we are proposing that Jesse

2:19:59Drive would become a DOT roadway in the

2:20:02future, we need to meet DOT's spacing

2:20:04standards. And DOT has already advised

2:20:07that that distance would be too short

2:20:10for a full movement intersection. So

2:20:12allowing throughs and left turns from

2:20:14both the north and the south.

2:20:16Um

2:20:18staff recommend

2:20:20that the southbound lefts and thuss be

2:20:23accommodated subject to DOT availability

2:20:26since it will ultimately be their

2:20:27roadway. Um so ongoing discussions if

2:20:30DOT is comfortable with that. Um that's

2:20:33something we're willing to to look into.

2:20:35But again, the northbound would be right

2:20:38in potentially or right in, left in

2:20:41potentially through and then just the

2:20:43northbound right out.

2:20:47Side access E is the last one all the

2:20:49way at the end. Um and we are asking for

2:20:52the developer to provide a left turn

2:20:54lane with a minimum of 100 ft um of

2:20:57storage to accommodate future traffic

2:20:59when the connection is made so that it

2:21:01doesn't need to be the median doesn't

2:21:03need to be reconstructed and that

2:21:05U-turns be accommodated with a bus 40

2:21:08design vehicle or um as required by NC

2:21:12do.

2:21:16I'll pop back here for just a second to

2:21:18this figure. That might be hard to see.

2:21:22Um, the request for the U-turn

2:21:24accommodation at site drive E would be

2:21:26to serve northbound through and left

2:21:30movements. That would be restricted at

2:21:32site drive C. So that would allow um

2:21:36that movement there. Additionally, site

2:21:38driveway F, which the applicant has has

2:21:41agreed to, also provides for what would

2:21:44be that northbound left movement, now

2:21:46becomes a right out onto 55.

2:21:54Just a couple of concerns that we have

2:21:56uh with the overall um

2:22:00conditions that are proposed. again, um,

2:22:02inconsistency with the transportation

2:22:04plan regarding 55 access.

2:22:07Uh, the difficulty and the increased

2:22:09costs that'll come with converting the

2:22:11rci or constructing the rci in the

2:22:14future, especially when they have a

2:22:17fully built out development. That's

2:22:18adding more trips on top of it. Um, the

2:22:22safety concern,

2:22:24we know rcis reduce conflict points and

2:22:28the severity of crashes that happened.

2:22:31Um so that's the concern there. And the

2:22:36applicant has provided some information

2:22:37to us regarding outreach to property

2:22:39owners in the area um regarding

2:22:45uh interest or um sorry interest in

2:22:49obtaining the right of way or property

2:22:51from them. Um, we're not

2:22:55satisfied that this constitutes

2:22:57negotiations or evidence of

2:23:00negotiations, but it does show that they

2:23:02have reached out and have had those

2:23:04conversations.

2:23:08I'll turn it back to

2:23:11you.

2:23:13[laughter]

2:23:13Somebody

2:23:15I'll just turn it back to June to finish

2:23:16up and then we can question.

2:23:18>> Thank you. I needed a traffic engineer

2:23:20to explain all that.

2:23:23So, this resoning was exempt from

2:23:25meeting with um the Apex Environmental

2:23:28Advisory Board. Um and the planning

2:23:31board held this public hearing on

2:23:33October 12th and recommended by a vote

2:23:36of 9 to zero to approve with the

2:23:39following conditions. Approval of road

2:23:41improvements indicated in scenario one.

2:23:44And the applicant um condition number

2:23:47two, the applicant worked with staff on

2:23:49the condition shown with an asterisk in

2:23:52the staff report prior to town council

2:23:55hearing. And that's what the applicant

2:23:57did. We worked on several um language.

2:24:01It was basically language on a lot of

2:24:04the um site access points and we cleared

2:24:07that up. So what we're looking at where

2:24:10we agree to disagree about is highway 55

2:24:13and Jesse Drive extension intersection

2:24:16side access C and side access E. And

2:24:20then the third um condition that the

2:24:23planning board put on um this was the

2:24:26applicant share with staff communication

2:24:28from property owners affected by the

2:24:30offsite road improvements which they did

2:24:33give us um their communications that

2:24:35they had. So, planning staff recommends

2:24:38approval of reszoning uh 26 CZ2 Jesse

2:24:42Commons PUD amendment if the recommended

2:24:45conditions by transportation and

2:24:47infrastructure development staff are

2:24:49added by the applicant. So, those are on

2:24:53pages 14 and 15 for your um for the

2:24:56recommendations.

2:24:58While the proposed amendment to the

2:25:00current planned unit development

2:25:02conditional zoning district is

2:25:04consistent with the commercial services

2:25:06and office employment industrial

2:25:08employment land use classification, it

2:25:11is not consistent with the apex

2:25:12transportation plan. If the staff

2:25:15recommended transportation conditions

2:25:17are added by the applicant, the proposed

2:25:19put amendments will also be consistent

2:25:22with the transportation plan and the

2:25:24proposed reasonzoning is reasonable and

2:25:26in the public interest only. the revised

2:25:29conditions as proposed by um

2:25:32transportation and infrastructure

2:25:34development staff are added. If those

2:25:36revisions are made, the resoning will

2:25:38allow for an increase in the scale of

2:25:40development that is more in line with

2:25:42new development in the area while

2:25:44ensuring compliance with the existing

2:25:46conditions of the previously approved

2:25:49PUD and updating required road

2:25:51improvements. The proposed resoning with

2:25:54staff recommended transportation

2:25:56conditions will ensure that NC55 is

2:25:59built to the town of um Apex and NC do

2:26:03uh super street requirements.

2:26:06And with that um the applicant then the

2:26:09presentation if you have any questions

2:26:11for staff.

2:26:13>> Any questions for staff? [clears throat]

2:26:45Uh thank you June and Mr. Clerk. Uh Mr.

2:26:48Mayor, members of council, Jason Baron

2:26:50with Morning Star Law Group. Here on

2:26:51behalf of the applicant, Strategic Real

2:26:53Estate Partners. Uh joining me tonight

2:26:55from Strategic Real Estate Partners are

2:26:57Paxton Holler, Eric Gibson, and Ryan

2:26:59Allen. Um they have been spearheading

2:27:01this um fairly multifaceted mixeduse

2:27:04development, all mixeduse,

2:27:05non-residential um which is not

2:27:07typically what I'm standing up here and

2:27:09advocating for. Um additionally joining

2:27:12me tonight is Jeff Roach with Peak

2:27:13Engineering has been providing land

2:27:14planning and engineering. And last but

2:27:16certainly not least, Kevin Dean with

2:27:19Kimley Horn is here to answer any

2:27:21questions you may have relative to the

2:27:22traffic impact analysis that's been

2:27:24performed as part of this project and

2:27:27that we've had a lot of conversations

2:27:28not only with the town's transportation

2:27:30staff, but certainly DOT as well. From a

2:27:33big picture standpoint, the reason why

2:27:35we are here and the reason why Strategic

2:27:36Real Estate Partners is is in this room

2:27:39tonight is because they're excited. They

2:27:41areite excited about making a $70

2:27:43million development investment in the

2:27:46town of Apex. A $70 million development

2:27:49investment that's exclusively

2:27:50non-residential development. It's

2:27:53commercial services up along Highway 55

2:27:55as the land use plan calls for. It's

2:27:58light industrial office and employment

2:28:00on the back portion of the site as the

2:28:02land use plan calls for. They're very

2:28:04excited about making the $70 million

2:28:07commitment to be corporate citizens in

2:28:09the town of Apex.

2:28:11What goes along with that $70 million

2:28:13isn't just the incredible tax base that

2:28:15comes from those uses. It's also road

2:28:18improvements. It's $5.5 million worth of

2:28:22road improvements that won't cost Apex

2:28:26Apex taxpayers

2:28:28a single dollar. That $5.5 million is in

2:28:32the form of $3 million worth of

2:28:34improvements to the Highway 55 corridor,

2:28:36which we'll talk about momentarily, as

2:28:38well as $2.5 million in investing in the

2:28:42extension of Jesse Drive through this

2:28:44site and getting it ever closer to being

2:28:47able to connect between Highway 55 and

2:28:501010 Road. From a big picture

2:28:52standpoint, that is why we are here.

2:28:55Now, as you heard from staff, and we'll

2:28:56talk about momentarily, really the

2:28:58fundamental issue associated with this

2:29:00case is, are we going to force an RCI in

2:29:04a location that cannot allow for it, and

2:29:07I will talk about what that means, or

2:29:09will we allow that $70 million

2:29:11investment to happen? Will we allow

2:29:13those five half million dollars of

2:29:15taxpayerfree

2:29:17transportation improvements to be able

2:29:18to proceed while a signalized

2:29:21intersection is put in the place of the

2:29:23rci a signalized intersection that is

2:29:26designed in a way and the conditions

2:29:28reflect this. It's designed in a way so

2:29:30that when do andor the town come through

2:29:33and make the networkwide improvements

2:29:36along 55 and convert the the road to an

2:29:40rci. there will be no additional right

2:29:42ofway necessary. It is being designed in

2:29:44such a way and the conditions are

2:29:46committing to this uh to make sure that

2:29:48when that project moves forward, nothing

2:29:50about the full movement intersection

2:29:52will prevent that from being able to

2:29:54happen.

2:29:55So again, I think the zoning side of

2:29:57this case is actually pretty easy as you

2:29:59heard from staff. I don't think anybody

2:30:01is going to debate that reszoning a site

2:30:03that's currently zoned PUD CZ and this

2:30:07is the existing zoning to a revision of

2:30:10that PUD CZ to really change two things

2:30:13changing the OY 01 commitment from

2:30:18180,000 ft to 240,000 ft and then making

2:30:21a universal 48 foot tall building height

2:30:25for all four pods. that 48 foot building

2:30:28uh height is something that would be

2:30:30consistent with the UDO as of today. So

2:30:33in essence, from a building height

2:30:34standpoint, all my client is seeking to

2:30:36do is to make it consistent with current

2:30:38UDO provisions. And really, they're just

2:30:40looking to add 60,000 square feet of

2:30:43light industrial office and employment

2:30:46generating uses to the site from a

2:30:48layout standpoint. And I don't know how

2:30:50well you can see this. This is the

2:30:51current layout that kind of forms the

2:30:53basis of the development project that

2:30:55Strategic Real Estate Partners is

2:30:57working on. Um up along Highway 55,

2:31:00those those commercial services area,

2:31:02the contemplation is for grocery

2:31:04anchored retail up along 55

2:31:07um without you retail out parcels

2:31:09associated with that. You have this very

2:31:12significant environmental feature

2:31:14running through the middle of the site.

2:31:16And then you've got some office and flex

2:31:19space here in the rear kind of what's O2

2:31:23according to the land use plan. And then

2:31:2401 is that larger light industrial

2:31:27facility that's contemplated as part of

2:31:29this project. Um as you can see through

2:31:32this project the extension of Jesse

2:31:34Drive is a is a significant component of

2:31:37the plan. It not only extends Jesse

2:31:39Drive at its full width to the boundary

2:31:42of the site and that's essentially to

2:31:43here. Um, it also crosses that

2:31:46significant environmental feature. And

2:31:48as I mentioned, the cost of the the

2:31:49Jesse Drive improvements on this site

2:31:51alone are anticipated to be around $2.5

2:31:54million.

2:31:56And that's that critical infrastructure

2:31:57that's being added. As we are all aware,

2:31:59and I've worked on a number of cases in

2:32:01this area, the connection of Jesse Drive

2:32:03from 55 to 1010 Road continues to be a

2:32:06priority for everybody involved in this

2:32:08process. As a result of this

2:32:10development, as well as the Jesse Drive

2:32:12industrial development that is currently

2:32:15in process, the remaining gap in Jesse

2:32:18Drive will will essentially be this gap

2:32:21here. Uh, which we're estimating around

2:32:241,200 linear feet will be all that is

2:32:27left in order to connect Jesse Drive all

2:32:29the way from Highway 55 to 1010 Road.

2:32:34Uh, the original zoning, as June

2:32:36mentioned during her presentation,

2:32:37contemplated site access. Granted, this

2:32:39was 2006. A lot of things have changed

2:32:41since 2006, but site access at that time

2:32:44was contemplating a full movement access

2:32:46on Jesse Drive and then these access

2:32:48points that are identified on this

2:32:50slide.

2:32:51And so from a from a 2026 recommended

2:32:54improvements from the town from the

2:32:56town's recommended improvements, that's

2:32:57scenario one. Really, it's that rci that

2:33:00creates a challenge in being able to

2:33:02move forward with this development to be

2:33:04able to move forward with this

2:33:05significant investment in the town and

2:33:07all of the road improvements that go

2:33:08along with it. And it's not for a lack

2:33:10of my client's willingness to put in the

2:33:13rci. Putting in the rci at the at the

2:33:16front of the development is not the

2:33:18issue. The issue is actually finding a

2:33:21place for the turnaround to occur. As

2:33:23we're all aware, when you put in an RCI,

2:33:25you essentially have to have two turn

2:33:26movements that go along with it that,

2:33:28you know, one is going to be north, one

2:33:30is going to be south. The rci

2:33:31essentially takes a a four four movement

2:33:34intersection and divides it in two. And

2:33:37um and so it's the northern portion of

2:33:40that turnaround movement that creates

2:33:42the challenge in being able to execute

2:33:45the rci in this particular instance. And

2:33:48that is because the off-site U-turn

2:33:50movement that is required is going to

2:33:53impact businesses that are currently

2:33:55operating on Highway 55. And um we have

2:33:57a slide here that has been prepared by

2:33:59Kimley Horn which does a pretty good job

2:34:01of demonstrating how that works. And

2:34:03this is for a single lane um turnaround

2:34:07ultimately once all of

2:34:10the this project is completed along this

2:34:12corridor. The anticipation is that will

2:34:14be a dual turnaround. So the impacts to

2:34:17adjacent property owners will be even

2:34:19more significant. I think what this

2:34:21slide shows you is not only what does

2:34:22the configuration of the turnaround look

2:34:24like, but also how does this

2:34:26configuration of the turnaround impact

2:34:29businesses that are currently operating

2:34:31on Highway 55 and businesses that don't

2:34:34really have any other access out onto 55

2:34:37except for the driveways that you can

2:34:39see in this design. And so you've got a

2:34:41driveway here that's going to be going

2:34:43away as part of this process. you've got

2:34:45a driveway here that's going away as

2:34:46part of this process. This could be a

2:34:49challenge as well. And so, um, once my

2:34:52client, Strategic Real Estate Partners,

2:34:54realized that there was going to be an

2:34:56off-site improvement because this

2:34:57requires the the acquisition of

2:34:59rightway. Um, you know, that requires

2:35:01talking to the people who own that right

2:35:02ofway because we don't have the

2:35:04authority to condemn, only the town and

2:35:06the state do, uh, to talk about would

2:35:08they be interested in working out a deal

2:35:10and and the answer was no, very

2:35:12politely, but no. um the business owner,

2:35:15this particular business owner in this

2:35:16location, um apparently business is

2:35:18doing very well. Good for them. Um and

2:35:21and they just didn't have an interest in

2:35:22participating as part of this project.

2:35:25And I again I can understand why because

2:35:27the impacts to their site would be

2:35:29fairly catastrophic from a from an

2:35:32operational standpoint. If you lose your

2:35:34driveways, you really don't have much

2:35:35ability to operate a business in this

2:35:38location. And again, there aren't any

2:35:40there's no way for them to get out onto

2:35:4255 with the exception of those existing

2:35:45driveways. And so again, I I want to

2:35:47reiterate and reinforce this isn't a

2:35:50situation where my client is is is is

2:35:52trying to get away with something. This

2:35:54is not a situation where my client is

2:35:56trying to look for the cheaper, better

2:35:58deal. The fact of the matter is is they

2:36:00are spending lots of money on road

2:36:02improvements along 55 to the tune of

2:36:04like $3 million. They are spending lots

2:36:06of money towards road improvements

2:36:08associated with the Jesse Drive

2:36:10extension. Uh they are willing to do

2:36:12that because this is a significant

2:36:14investment and they recognize that the

2:36:16impacts from the development require

2:36:18those type of improvements. They just

2:36:20don't have the financial capability of

2:36:22going and buying somebody's business out

2:36:25and relocating that business. That is

2:36:26just an economic reality of the

2:36:29situation that we face. And so the

2:36:31request that we are making of this

2:36:33council is essentially to allow this

2:36:35development project to move forward to

2:36:37allow the full movement intersection to

2:36:38be installed in this location. Um to

2:36:42allow for and I won't bore you with

2:36:45these two slides unless we need to go

2:36:46back to them, but ultimately to allow

2:36:48the full movement intersection to allow

2:36:50this project to be able to move forward

2:36:52if and when the state chooses to improve

2:36:56Highway 55. As I mentioned earlier, none

2:36:59of none of what is being done at Jesse

2:37:02Drive at 55 is going to prevent that

2:37:04project from being able to move forward.

2:37:06Um, so with that, Kevin Dean is here to

2:37:09answer any technical questions you might

2:37:11have related to the traffic study. This

2:37:14has kind of turned on its head. I do

2:37:15want to point out with respect to

2:37:17driveway C and and driveway E, those are

2:37:20site access C and site access E. You

2:37:23probably can't see that very well, but

2:37:24those are the only two other

2:37:26intersections that we have an a

2:37:28disagreement with the transportation

2:37:30staff. For driveway C, it's essentially

2:37:33connecting the two retail pods. And our

2:37:36desire is for allow to allow people to

2:37:38be able to move back and forth between

2:37:40those retail pods. As we are aware, we

2:37:42don't know what the time frame will be

2:37:45for the future connection of Jesse

2:37:47Drive. So, for all intents and purposes,

2:37:49when my client goes through and

2:37:51constructs Jesse Drive, it will be a

2:37:53dead end. And when it stops being a dead

2:37:55end, we don't know. During that time, my

2:37:58client certainly sees a much more

2:38:00economically viable commercial project

2:38:03by being able to allow folks who are

2:38:05driving on driveway C to move between

2:38:08both portions of the commercial pod

2:38:10without having to take a right and then

2:38:12make and then make a Uturn at driveway

2:38:14E. there's just not we don't believe

2:38:16there is sufficient uh traffic until

2:38:20Jesse Drive gets connected. We don't

2:38:21believe there's sufficient traffic to

2:38:23warrant limiting those two movements. Um

2:38:26and so with that, you know, we would

2:38:28respectfully request you all's uh

2:38:30support for the case. We think there is

2:38:32a lot going on about this development

2:38:34that is going to make Apex um going to

2:38:37make Apex better, certainly from a

2:38:38taxbased standpoint. Lots of traffic

2:38:40improvements associated with that. Um,

2:38:42and so with that, happy to answer any

2:38:44questions. And like I said, if you've

2:38:45got technical questions associated with

2:38:47traffic, I'm going to quickly rely on

2:38:49Mr. Dean.

2:38:50>> All right. Thank you so much, Mr.

2:38:52Barrett. Any questions for council?

2:38:55>> I do have a question. Um, so you ended

2:38:58with the uh the two driveway access C

2:39:02and E.

2:39:02>> Yes.

2:39:03>> Um, so what's your final stance on that?

2:39:06So there was a town requested condition.

2:39:08You requested something different.

2:39:10amended their request.

2:39:13>> Are you is your client accepting the

2:39:15amended request as stated?

2:39:16>> No. And and the reason why again, so

2:39:19driveway C, which you I'll go back to

2:39:21here. Driveway C is this driveway here,

2:39:24>> and it connects the two retail pods. Our

2:39:26desire is to have a a full kind of

2:39:30northbound and southbound movement

2:39:32connecting those two pods across Jesse

2:39:34Drive. So that and I'll go back to this

2:39:37slide. So that folks who are in this

2:39:39retail pod here will be able to drive

2:39:41across this driveway and connect to this

2:39:44the commercial portion of the site on

2:39:46the north side of Jesse Drive. We

2:39:49recognize that when Jesse Drive gets

2:39:51constructed, when that final leg is

2:39:53added to the process, that that movement

2:39:55could theoretically change. But it's

2:39:58really important for my client from an

2:39:59economic viability standpoint to be able

2:40:02to establish behaviors, shopping

2:40:04behaviors, visiting behaviors related to

2:40:06the retail that they're planning here.

2:40:08Um, they think it's going to make for a

2:40:10better project to be able to allow that

2:40:11movement. So, Councilman Zerman, the

2:40:13idea and where we differ with the staff

2:40:15is the staff doesn't want to allow the

2:40:17the through movement in this location.

2:40:20It's only a right out and a left out.

2:40:22>> I don't see that in the language as the

2:40:26new town request requested condition.

2:40:28You have it in your slides. So, maybe

2:40:30you can point me at where that where it

2:40:32states that that there's no north south

2:40:34traffic.

2:40:35>> I'll let the town I think that's a

2:40:37question for the town.

2:40:49We can all race and take turns.

2:40:51>> I'll just gather around push it.

2:40:54>> So that's the validation I needed. Um

2:40:57don't get a lot of that as a traffic

2:40:59engineer. Kevin Dean Kinleyhorn 1070

2:41:01South Main Street um in Holly Springs.

2:41:03So, when we're looking at access C, um

2:41:07you'll see on the right column where the

2:41:10new town requested condition, um it's a

2:41:12site access C has a directional

2:41:14crossover restricting the northbound

2:41:15approach to right turn only. Southbound,

2:41:19left turns and through movements would

2:41:20be accommodated subject to NCBOT

2:41:22approval. Our difference is we would

2:41:23like a through movement or full movement

2:41:25access from both the north and south

2:41:27sides. Staff's request is that it's just

2:41:31from the north side. So our difference

2:41:33is we like full movement left and

2:41:36through movements from both sides as

2:41:37opposed to just the one. So you'll see

2:41:39>> but that's and maybe correct me if I'm

2:41:41wrong here like I read it as being on

2:41:44Jesse Drive you have a northbound access

2:41:47into that site

2:41:50but it doesn't preclude from if you

2:41:53coming from the west side on Jesse Drive

2:41:57like does it does it prohibit the left

2:41:59hand turn? Is that what this this says?

2:42:01because it's not clear to me in the

2:42:03wording here.

2:42:04>> Can I pop back to the Sure. to the

2:42:06figure?

2:42:06>> Please do.

2:42:07>> Oh,

2:42:12>> maybe. Thank you. Um, okay. So, I don't

2:42:16know if you can see that or if I can

2:42:17zoom in. Um, for sight driveway

2:42:21C, staff is

2:42:25recommending

2:42:28lefts in off of Jesse Drive to either

2:42:30side.

2:42:31So, if you're on Jesse Drive, you can

2:42:33turn to the north or to the south and

2:42:35access those parcels.

2:42:37>> Um, if you are coming northbound, north

2:42:40is page right here. Um, from the

2:42:44southern retail part, if you're coming

2:42:45northbound, staff's recommendation is

2:42:48for a right turn only exit. No straits

2:42:52and no rights.

2:42:56Sorry. Sorry. Left. Yep. Mhm.

2:43:00>> And then do the Uturn that you spoke

2:43:03about at driving.

2:43:04>> So the you can turn can be done here.

2:43:06They can come out here and come in. You

2:43:08can access out here and come in

2:43:12um down here. So there's a couple a

2:43:14couple different ways. I will note

2:43:16explicitly that the left the southbound

2:43:21left and through movement

2:43:24is subject to DO's approval.

2:43:28so that they accept the road in the

2:43:31future. Um that's a conversation if DOT

2:43:36is

2:43:38find acceptable. Um staff don't

2:43:41necessarily have

2:43:43um anything against that.

2:43:49>> So coming from the east on Jesse Drive.

2:43:53>> Yes.

2:43:57So you pass the industrial pods.

2:44:01So you get into the retail section. So

2:44:04driveway E would allow you to turn right

2:44:07into the northern pods. It will allow

2:44:11you to turn left into the southern pod.

2:44:13>> Driveway C. Yeah.

2:44:14>> Driveway C.

2:44:18Driveway B would just be a right or

2:44:22straight. So now no left and turn to the

2:44:24south.

2:44:28Okay. So, the really the only dispute

2:44:30here then is is basically that's

2:44:32straight through on driveway a C

2:44:36from north to south. That's the only

2:44:38that's the only

2:44:39>> through and the left

2:44:42>> coming out of South

2:44:43>> and the left. Okay. So,

2:44:44>> it's for traffic exiting those retail

2:44:46pubs either to get back to NZ55 or to go

2:44:50across back and forth. Right. you see

2:44:52all the time. The benefit of having some

2:44:53of these connected developments is that

2:44:55people don't have to get back home to 55

2:44:57to then get to the northern side. The

2:45:00goal with the applicant's condition at

2:45:02least in the near term would be if

2:45:04someone wanted to go from the south side

2:45:05to the north side at driveway C, they

2:45:08could just drive across

2:45:10Jesse Drive and not have to make a

2:45:12U-turn further down or go out on 55 to

2:45:15turn back on Jesse Drive to turn. So it

2:45:18is for traffic that's already in those

2:45:20retail [clears throat] pods that would

2:45:21like to get across to the other retail

2:45:23pod.

2:45:24>> Is that the only missing movement here?

2:45:25What about left from the southern side

2:45:28of Jesse Drive to go back to 55

2:45:31>> that? So this exhibit at site driveway C

2:45:34reflects the town's town staff.

2:45:37>> Okay.

2:45:37>> Configuration. The applicant is also

2:45:39requesting the left turn out of southern

2:45:41>> basically a full movement.

2:45:42>> Yes, sir. That's exactly right. So our

2:45:44difference is full movement verse just

2:45:46right turn out of sight droplets.

2:45:49>> Okay.

2:45:50>> The northern northern side is full

2:45:51movement. You go left, right or

2:45:53straight. Correct.

2:45:55>> The the diagram on page 36 of the staff

2:45:58report where you've got the light green

2:46:01writing with the X's. That's that that

2:46:05is the recommendation from staff with

2:46:08the light green.

2:46:10Um I mean not to I'm sorry if this

2:46:13question is naive but you seem to

2:46:14concede that once Jess drive is

2:46:15connected that the movement restrictions

2:46:17will be necessary. Have you suggested or

2:46:19talked about a condition where it

2:46:21initially is full movement but once

2:46:23patch is made one year five year 10

2:46:25years down the road at that point it

2:46:27would be converted to the reduced

2:46:30movement.

2:46:31>> So a a few points on that if I may and

2:46:34Jason gets to play traffic engineer.

2:46:36I'll play land use attorney for a

2:46:37minute. Um, we we concede that any

2:46:41driveway on an NC DOT maintained roadway

2:46:44is subject to DOT approval at all times.

2:46:47So, it would be my opinion that since we

2:46:49don't know the timing of the Jesse Drive

2:46:51extension and when or if any of those

2:46:53movement limitations would be necessary,

2:46:55we wouldn't codify that in a condition.

2:46:57I'd also note that while the median

2:47:00brake spacing that is shown here is

2:47:02doesn't necessarily meet typical NC DOT

2:47:04guidance um this is consistent with the

2:47:08um intersection configuration in the

2:47:10original PUD. It is also worth noting

2:47:13that Vidia is being designed with median

2:47:16brake spacing that does not meet typical

2:47:18NC do spacing guidelines. So there's

2:47:21precedent being set a stones throw away

2:47:24from this site for full movement

2:47:27intersections that also don't meet

2:47:30standard NC do 1200 ft uh intersection

2:47:34spacing. So I think there's an

2:47:35acknowledgement that there's benefits to

2:47:37some of this connectivity and based on

2:47:39corridor design that there can be

2:47:42concessions made when appropriate design

2:47:44can be done. So I think that's why we've

2:47:45not added a condition is that these

2:47:47discussions are ongoing. the timing is

2:47:49unknown and we think that the full

2:47:52movement could still be appropriate even

2:47:54long term.

2:47:55>> Yeah, I think that's right. I mean and I

2:47:56think fundamentally, you know, our

2:47:57request is not to put anything in zoning

2:47:59conditions that hamstrings our ability

2:48:01to work out these things with DOT

2:48:03because I mean certainly along Highway

2:48:0455 at Jesse Drive, DOT is going to get

2:48:07to make all of the calls. When it's time

2:48:09to hand Jesse Drive over to DOT, you

2:48:12know, they're going to make all the

2:48:13calls with respect to what the DOT road

2:48:15looks like.

2:48:16My question is I mean um was the reason

2:48:21for the town to recommend you know make

2:48:24all those turning on to you know back to

2:48:27NC 55 not put you know Jesse Jesse drive

2:48:32directly through you know from north to

2:48:35south. What's the reason?

2:48:38>> Yeah sure. So that was the original

2:48:39discussion with DOT and that they would

2:48:41not allow anything but a leftover here.

2:48:46um in trying to prepare the roadway so

2:48:48that there's no surprises, people

2:48:51suddenly losing their access or turning

2:48:53movements in five ten years. That's, you

2:48:56know, when the lease is signed. Um we

2:48:59don't want to put ourselves in a

2:49:00situation in which DOT could possibly

2:49:04say that doesn't meet our standards for

2:49:06one reason or another, even with

2:49:08changes, we're not taking the roadway

2:49:11because now we've kind of worked oursel

2:49:13into a corner. So we're just trying to

2:49:15get ahead of that longer plan.

2:49:18[clears throat]

2:49:19>> Another question is um regarding that

2:49:21rci, right? So uh the applicant said

2:49:26it's just um impossible because there

2:49:29are two

2:49:31business along the way and the owners

2:49:35are not willing to you know sell it.

2:49:38Okay. So uh I I you know I read through

2:49:42the language it said um our town staff

2:49:46recommend we charge a fee in LE. Right.

2:49:50Okay. Correct.

2:49:50>> So does the applicant agree with this

2:49:54condition?

2:49:57We don't agree with paying a fee in L

2:49:59for that movement again just because the

2:50:01traffic improvements that we're already

2:50:02paying for are so substantial because we

2:50:05are in the situation where we can't

2:50:07execute the rci because we can't control

2:50:09that right of way. So we're putting in a

2:50:11signalized intersection that you know

2:50:13it's just very expensive. So, at this

2:50:15point, we're not comfortable, you know,

2:50:17making the further commitment to not

2:50:18only put in the the full movement

2:50:20intersection and put in all the Jesse

2:50:22Drive improvements and all of the

2:50:23Highway 55 improvements and then to

2:50:24double down and to pay for that for for

2:50:26a turnaround. We just don't think

2:50:28>> [clears throat]

2:50:28>> um is financially feasible at this

2:50:30point.

2:50:30>> Can you walk me through that logic,

2:50:32please? Because with the RCA, you're

2:50:35still building a signalized intersection

2:50:38at Jesse Drive. You're building a

2:50:40signalized uh turnaround

2:50:44And you're saying that

2:50:46if f and loo somehow is cost prohibitive

2:50:49because you know in my math like you're

2:50:51not building that second signal. You're

2:50:54not building out

2:50:5655 any further. So what's the difference

2:50:59between your statement of saying your

2:51:02client is willing to build this word

2:51:04feasible right and the fee and lit that

2:51:09we were asking for and your client is

2:51:11declining.

2:51:12>> Yeah. Well, I mean, and I want to make

2:51:14sure I'm understand which fee and loo

2:51:15we're talking about. I mean, the fee and

2:51:16loo that is ne necessitated by the

2:51:18improvements that can't be performed

2:51:19right now would be the fee and loo for

2:51:21this turnaround move,

2:51:22>> right? And your your earlier statement

2:51:24was that your client is happy to build

2:51:26this thing where it's feasible.

2:51:27>> If it was economically feasible, yes,

2:51:29sir.

2:51:29>> No, no. Feasible like if you were to be

2:51:31able to obtain the rightway, your client

2:51:34was willing to build this road as as

2:51:37outlined.

2:51:37>> Yes. Yes. If if if rightway were there,

2:51:39they would build that road. Yes, sir.

2:51:40>> Exactly. So

2:51:42why not? So how's the fee in L?

2:51:45>> Well, because the

2:51:46>> economically not feasible now would be

2:51:49feasible.

2:51:50>> So now I'm going to get to play traffic

2:51:51engineer. Um Kevin, uh the cost

2:51:54associated with the full movement

2:51:56intersection is far greater than the rci

2:51:59intersection would be. I mean, you

2:52:00you've got multiple signals that are

2:52:02part of that process. Um it's just it's

2:52:05a much more significant investment at

2:52:07the front door than doing the rci.

2:52:10>> So what's the plan for this

2:52:12intersection? I mean you're still

2:52:15building signal led

2:52:17>> yes

2:52:17>> intersection but without the two turning

2:52:20lens are this is this the case you are

2:52:23talking

2:52:24>> yes m so at the main intersection of

2:52:26NC55 at Jesse drive what we are

2:52:28proposing um is to provide two left turn

2:52:31lanes for people traveling south on NC55

2:52:34from 55 onto Jesse drive um that lanage

2:52:37is consistent with the future plans for

2:52:39Jesse Drive extension which also in the

2:52:42rci configuration

2:52:44calls for two left turn lanes. Um, our

2:52:47Jesse Drive will also be providing a

2:52:49third northbound lane along NC55 on our

2:52:52frontage, which is consistent with a

2:52:54comprehensive plan. Um, where we differ

2:52:56is that on Jesse Drive exiting back on

2:52:59to 55, we're proposing two left turn

2:53:03lanes and a right turn lane. So, the

2:53:04full movement because you could turn

2:53:06left or right turning off of Jesse

2:53:08Drive. um instead of just being able to

2:53:11turn right and then having to go north

2:53:12and make a U-turn. Um [clears throat]

2:53:14when we talk about the ability to

2:53:15convert this intersection to an RCI or

2:53:18super street in the future, um the

2:53:20benefit of having the second what we

2:53:22call inside left turn lane, the one that

2:53:23you can see that has 350 ft of storage

2:53:26referenced is that uh that lanage can be

2:53:29converted back into a median. So in the

2:53:32examples that staff showed where you see

2:53:34if you come out of Sweetwater and you're

2:53:35channelized off onto 64, the extra

2:53:38median width that gets constructed when

2:53:40we build Jesse Drive extension

2:53:43relatively easy converts back into the

2:53:45median that you would need to get the

2:53:46super street in the future. So we we are

2:53:48not conceding that um that full movement

2:53:52um was staff's plan for this

2:53:54intersection. We do think to Jason's

2:53:56point earlier that the significant

2:53:58amount of investment and the ability to

2:54:00get a significant portion of Jesse Drive

2:54:02constructed is proportional, if not more

2:54:05so, to our development's impacts at this

2:54:07location.

2:54:08>> I'm still not following the map there.

2:54:09So, I think what you just told me is

2:54:11that the two left turn lanes on Jesse

2:54:13Drive

2:54:15are costing you the same or more as

2:54:19doing the full rci, right? And that's

2:54:21why a poo cannot be considered.

2:54:25Right? Because if that's the only

2:54:26difference in the intersection, as you

2:54:28just explained, it then, you know, two

2:54:30two left turn lanes instead of, you

2:54:33know,

2:54:34>> just just a right turn lane or several

2:54:36right turn lanes doesn't sound like a

2:54:39major investment that would prohibit us

2:54:41asking for PM. Like I'm I'm just not

2:54:44following the math here. Like what how

2:54:46is this this full section or full

2:54:48movement intersection so much more

2:54:50expensive that a PML is off the table?

2:54:53They don't want paper boats.

2:54:54>> Well, I I get it, but yeah, you're

2:54:56talking about two to two turn lanes.

2:54:58Isn't that, you know, a decent lesson?

2:55:02>> So, the the the widening that it would

2:55:04take to widen for dual U-turn lanes

2:55:06north of this intersection and the right

2:55:08ofway impacts associated with that is is

2:55:11the part that's prohibitive, right? We

2:55:13are you sure

2:55:14>> sir? Are you sure like the rightway

2:55:16acquisition you you believe it'll be a

2:55:18full taking of the of one of the two

2:55:19properties

2:55:21>> or is that just worst case like

2:55:24>> so and why don't you talk a little bit

2:55:26about the discussions with DOT how how

2:55:28this particular location was landed on

2:55:30and the study that went into figuring

2:55:32out exactly what that looks like.

2:55:33>> Yes. So NC DOT typically wants uh U-turn

2:55:36spacing to be about 800 feet. So, uh,

2:55:39this location is right in that 8 to 900

2:55:41foot range. We, we were the ones that

2:55:44identified the solution because of all

2:55:46the places that fall into that range.

2:55:48This had the fewest impacts on the

2:55:50number of driveways. You can imagine if

2:55:51we shifted this further to the south,

2:55:54which is towards the left side of the

2:55:56screen. Um, both of the driveways to

2:55:59that business would be eliminated. It's

2:56:01worth remembering that NC DOT does not

2:56:03permit access off of their U-turn bulbs.

2:56:05Um, they go so far as when UNCC was

2:56:08building their hospital in Holly

2:56:09Springs, NC DOT would not let the

2:56:12hospital get an ambulance access off of

2:56:14the U-turn bulb. So, DOT is relatively

2:56:16militant in terms of what access they

2:56:18allow in the vicinity of U-turn bulbs.

2:56:20So, shifting that U-turn bulb to the

2:56:23south eliminates both driveways to the

2:56:26the business that we see here. this.

2:56:30It's also worth noting that the impacts

2:56:31that we're showing are only

2:56:33representative of a single U-turn lane.

2:56:36So, kicking that widening further out to

2:56:39accommodate a second U-turn lane would

2:56:41be more impactful. This exhibit also

2:56:43doesn't show future widening for the

2:56:45third southbound lane that staff is

2:56:47asking for, which increases that

2:56:49footprint even more along that side of

2:56:5155. You're saying all that together

2:56:53means a taking of one of those three

2:56:56depending on where the bulb goes

2:56:58exactly.

2:56:59>> That would be our expectation.

2:57:00>> Okay.

2:57:02>> Rush, you give that.

2:57:07[laughter]

2:57:13>> So I was just trying to follow the line

2:57:14of questioning. There's a question about

2:57:16being able to construct or being able to

2:57:17pay a fee in L [clears throat]

2:57:19for in lie of the construction site. So

2:57:21I guess two things. One, are we

2:57:23expecting the themeloo to include the

2:57:25cost of rightaway acquisition?

2:57:28>> Okay.

2:57:28>> Typically, yes, but it would be rightway

2:57:31acquisition. It wouldn't be a taking of

2:57:34the entire property. It would just be

2:57:36fair market value of the rightway

2:57:38itself. So I mean, they would look at

2:57:40the value of the business and it it

2:57:42would be based on that on that value.

2:57:45Yeah.

2:57:46>> So that's what I'm getting at. Like is

2:57:47this a is this does this look like a

2:57:50full taking of a business to you or or

2:57:51is staff the way staff use this is it's

2:57:53a standard right away of however many

2:57:55feet that we need for the turnaround

2:57:57which isn't necessarily prohibitive. I

2:58:00could understand why taking a business

2:58:01would be millions of dollars you know

2:58:04but this could be hundreds of thousands

2:58:07you know. Yeah,

2:58:09>> it could be that these these built these

2:58:11businesses the access could be

2:58:12reconfigured where it's in our opinion

2:58:14wouldn't be a a full taking, but again

2:58:17you're dealing with owners where you're

2:58:18trying to acquire and they may consider

2:58:20it a full taking. I mean that's part of

2:58:22the negotiation process. So whenever

2:58:23we're looking at a fee and loo we have

2:58:25to consider what that fee and loo is

2:58:26based on. Um there's different ways that

2:58:29can be done. I mean, you could look at a

2:58:30fee and loo purely based on the

2:58:32infrastructure and not request fee and

2:58:34loo for the rightway acquisition,

2:58:36assuming that in the future you would

2:58:37have the money for construction, but it

2:58:39would be done when these properties

2:58:41redevelop. We've actually got a property

2:58:43we just had a preapp with along this

2:58:45U-turn area um this past week that we're

2:58:49asking for additional rightway for the

2:58:51future U-turn bulb. So I mean these area

2:58:53these areas are anticipated to redevelop

2:58:55in the future. And as as June um Cal

2:58:58pointed out early in the presentation as

2:58:59well there is a collector street along

2:59:01the back side of these properties. So

2:59:02ultimately the vision is not to have all

2:59:04these multiple driveways along this

2:59:07corridor which is an old school way of

2:59:08thinking on a major highway like this.

2:59:11it's to have access more out the back

2:59:13and preserve access along the corridor

2:59:17um to maximize capacity because our

2:59:19concern here is you know both efficiency

2:59:21and safety trying to move a lot of

2:59:23traffic down NC55

2:59:25um and all the investment that's being

2:59:27made by DOT and Vidia and other projects

2:59:29along this corridor.

2:59:31>> Yeah. And this if this is not

2:59:32constructed here and we either gather a

2:59:34theloo or we agree on a full move

2:59:37intersection to Jesse it would likely be

2:59:39NC DOT as part of the project to

2:59:41construct the rci eventually. Is that

2:59:43right or would we have to do it?

2:59:46>> So yeah it it's a large it's a large

2:59:48project. So right now example down at

2:59:50technology drive which was also

2:59:52presented that's a DOT project and I

2:59:54believe that project's on the order of

2:59:55$50 million being invested down there in

2:59:58all the access management the rci that's

3:00:00being constructed. So, it's a lot of

3:00:01money. Um, maybe it's I maybe it's maybe

3:00:04I'm thinking about the interchange. It

3:00:05may be less than that. It may be 30

3:00:06million, 20 million, 30 million, but

3:00:08it's it's still a lot of money, more

3:00:09than the town would be able to invest as

3:00:11part of a CIP project even if we had

3:00:14some additional federal assistance. So,

3:00:16some of it could be done peace mill over

3:00:17time, but it's it's just it's difficult

3:00:19with smaller properties coming in. I

3:00:21mean, we can get right away, but getting

3:00:24individual smaller redevelopments to to

3:00:26build like build an RCI, for example,

3:00:28it's difficult to piece that together.

3:00:30You can do fees and lose over time and

3:00:34the issue with that is of course as time

3:00:35goes by those fees and lose can be

3:00:37eroded to the point where you have

3:00:38inflation and they don't necessarily

3:00:40cover the full cost of construction in

3:00:41the future too. We can also ask for

3:00:44right away dedication at that point,

3:00:46right? And so, so um so if the rightway

3:00:51acquisition is the sticking point here,

3:00:54>> if we were to remove that from the fee

3:00:56and loo, right, are we now having a

3:00:59different conversation or is it still

3:01:00hard now? because I'm still not

3:01:02following the math. Uh, you know, I

3:01:04cannot do I cannot pay a fee and Lou,

3:01:06but I can pay for the bills of this

3:01:10where it's, you know, we're, you know,

3:01:11which we have to write.

3:01:13>> I Okay. I think

3:01:16>> or if I can step back a little bit, like

3:01:18if if we talk about rightway acquisition

3:01:20not involving taking a full property and

3:01:22we assume the rightway acquisition would

3:01:23be a normal rightway acquisition for the

3:01:27um area involved in the ball, right? It

3:01:31seems like there's a big jump there

3:01:32depending on how that negotiation goes.

3:01:34That would introduce

3:01:37some risk or maybe even be unknowable

3:01:39prior to the certainly the zoning

3:01:42approval but even site plan or whatever.

3:01:45>> Correct.

3:01:46>> Yeah.

3:01:47>> Is the applicant paying any portion of

3:01:50this rci or is purely paid by NCO?

3:01:56So, um, to be clear, the state doesn't

3:01:59have a project in this part of the

3:02:00corridor right now. Um, they are looking

3:02:02at future prioritization for funding

3:02:04along this corridor, but that's many

3:02:06years out. That's not certain as to when

3:02:08that's going to happen. Um, so we are

3:02:10relying on private development right now

3:02:12outside of the technology drive area

3:02:14[clears throat] to improve as they come

3:02:15along. And again, I I will point out, I

3:02:18mean, I know they're not showing the

3:02:19full impact with the dual U-turn bulb

3:02:21and the additional southbound lane. Um,

3:02:23but I mean there is access in this area.

3:02:26It's not like we're completely cutting

3:02:27off access. So I mean again in our

3:02:30opinion it's not not what we would

3:02:32consider a full take, at least not what

3:02:34we've seen so far. But that's still a

3:02:35negotiation process to figure out how

3:02:37you reconfigure access. And um the the

3:02:41the estimate the compensation would have

3:02:43to account for how the site has to be

3:02:45reconfigured to make that work.

3:02:48>> I have a question about the bulb. Um, as

3:02:51I look at it here and I'm trying to look

3:02:55at it on Google Maps,

3:02:58speaking of naive questions, is there

3:03:00for So, first off, it looks like it's t

3:03:03taking one driveway away of two

3:03:07driveways for the same business. Is that

3:03:09correct?

3:03:11>> Um, that's correct. Yes.

3:03:15>> Yeah. And there's a

3:03:16>> so prohibitive that they can't stay in

3:03:18business.

3:03:20Um, again, and my opinion, my opinion,

3:03:22no, based on the layout, I mean, I think

3:03:24they still have access. It's just not

3:03:26the same access they had before. But

3:03:29again,

3:03:30>> the division for this corridor is not to

3:03:32keep the same all these multiple

3:03:33driveways with full movement access in

3:03:35the long term. It is to start

3:03:37restricting access, having a better plan

3:03:39for access management just because of

3:03:41the volume that's anticipated for this

3:03:42quarter long term and what's out there

3:03:44today.

3:03:45>> Thank you.

3:03:47And if I could just add to that

3:03:48conversation again, as as you heard from

3:03:51Mr. Dean as well as Russell, this is

3:03:53just showing the single turnaround. If

3:03:56this is converted to a duel, as you

3:03:57imagine, as you can imagine, that pushes

3:03:59everything west, that does put that

3:04:01second access drive in jeopardy. And

3:04:04practically speaking, given where we are

3:04:05in the process, whether it's a full

3:04:07taking or a partial taking, a property

3:04:10owner who's unwilling to sell right of

3:04:11way, it's the same thing in terms of our

3:04:14ability to negotiate the right of way

3:04:15necessary to put in the in the

3:04:17improvement.

3:04:18>> Okay. Appreciate. So um

3:04:21>> if it takes NC do I know you don't know

3:04:25how many years you know for to do a

3:04:28project like this are you I mean the

3:04:30applicant is going to start the

3:04:34construction of this rci

3:04:37or waiting for NC DOT to do it. It would

3:04:40be as part of an NC DOT project, I would

3:04:42suspect, I think is what we heard from

3:04:43Russell as well as u that would be a

3:04:46fairly expensive networkwide

3:04:49improvement to 55 that would convert a

3:04:51number of these places to ris.

3:04:54>> One other question, Jason, like I think

3:04:55I saw this in email to one of my

3:04:57colleagues that was that was shared. You

3:04:58mentioned you did a traffic analysis of

3:05:00the full movement versus the rci and you

3:05:02thought that they operated roughly the

3:05:03same or or better with a full movement.

3:05:07And you see that doesn't make sense to

3:05:09me, right? Because the the full movement

3:05:10should have a longer light cycle and

3:05:12back up one more. So why is it that a

3:05:14full movement operates better than an

3:05:16RCI here

3:05:17>> on on you know going up to to one.

3:05:21>> So what we looked at uh for that

3:05:23comparison was cumulative delay between

3:05:25the two intersections. So certainly if

3:05:27you just took NC55 at Jesse Drive as a

3:05:31standalone, that was all you evaluated a

3:05:33full movement intersection versus

3:05:35functionally a half intersection in the

3:05:38super street configuration, that one

3:05:40node would operate better when you

3:05:42account for having to get that traffic

3:05:44U-turn for traffic that wants to go

3:05:46south.

3:05:48>> The south

3:05:49>> I mean, how do you divide the traffic

3:05:51when people are commuting in the

3:05:52morning? They're all going north to US1.

3:05:54But when we're so but when we're looking

3:05:56at intersection delays and it's the PM

3:05:58peak hour where the the full movement

3:06:00operates more efficiently than the super

3:06:03street. If you imagine at this so when

3:06:06when we're looking at this U-turn bulb

3:06:07here on the screen, there'd be a traffic

3:06:09signal at that location which would

3:06:12incur delay for southbound traffic and

3:06:14the U-turn traffic for folks exiting out

3:06:16of Jesse Drive. So when like so we have

3:06:20delay at the one intersection in the

3:06:22full movement but then since the super

3:06:24street is split into two we're we still

3:06:26need to look at those two points to see

3:06:28the total delay. So that's where you end

3:06:31up with cumulative delay in the PM peak

3:06:34hour that is longer in the super street

3:06:36when we're looking at one or two lanes.

3:06:39>> Um

3:06:41maybe like I I I guess the issue I have

3:06:43is you'd have to divide up the traffic

3:06:44to see what amount of it would be making

3:06:46the U-turn, right? And we've done that

3:06:47in the analysis.

3:06:48>> How much would you estimate would move

3:06:50it is?

3:06:51>> So the the traffic making the U-turn is

3:06:54site traffic coming out of the project.

3:06:56Um so that would be

3:07:03>> it's just site traffic coming out of the

3:07:05not the not the background traffic.

3:07:08So for for the U-turn bulb, when we're

3:07:10looking at these results, that delay is

3:07:12just based on site traffic and not

3:07:14traffic that also gets added in the

3:07:16future with the extension of Jesse

3:07:18Drive. So we're talking about a couple

3:07:19hundred U-turns in the peak hours at

3:07:22that intersection.

3:07:23>> Okay. I guess I'm talking just the

3:07:27highle case of where most of your

3:07:29traffic isn't going to be coming from

3:07:30the site. be coming from Holly Springs

3:07:32commuting up through your through the

3:07:35intersection to the US1 uh on-ramp. Yes,

3:07:39sir.

3:07:39>> And that traffic would navigate through

3:07:41a half light cycle if it's a super

3:07:44street y or a full light cycle if it's

3:07:46full movement

3:07:48>> and then it wouldn't hit the turning one

3:07:50at all.

3:07:51>> Sure. And then coming home in the

3:07:52afternoon, they would hit the southern

3:07:53one. What we're saying is by adding the

3:07:56Jess by adding Jesse Drive extension you

3:07:59create two point two signalized points

3:08:01on the corridor. So if we're going to

3:08:02compare delays that's how we looked at a

3:08:05comparison of them. I don't disagree

3:08:07that you're looking it might be

3:08:08different folks are hitting it at

3:08:10different times of the day when we're

3:08:11looking at how the intersection and

3:08:13delays are impacted. Cumulative delay

3:08:16was more of an apples to apples

3:08:17comparison.

3:08:17>> Well I I'm sorry. not a traffic engineer

3:08:19but I'm just thinking about the

3:08:20commuters and and how they would be

3:08:22impacted by a full movement versus a

3:08:23super street intersection and the

3:08:25concern is this is of course

3:08:27>> uh major traffic issue already

3:08:32[clears throat]

3:08:33>> can you give a uh clear picture if we

3:08:37are not going to do the rci so what that

3:08:41insection would uh would look like

3:08:45>> yes ma'am um so let me the

3:08:49other direction. I need Jessica and June

3:08:51back up here to make sure I'm using

3:08:52[snorts] the slides correctly. So, this

3:08:54is what the intersection would look like

3:08:56uh in the future. Um maybe if you all do

3:08:58a screen lock and then flip your laptops

3:09:00to the side, you can get it to where

3:09:02North is up. But the uh but it would be

3:09:05um like most traditional intersections

3:09:07in town if you're coming out of Beaver

3:09:08Creek Commons um if you were to think of

3:09:10the Beaver Creek Common side uh there at

3:09:1355. So, it's just a traditional full

3:09:15movement intersection with multiple

3:09:16lanes on the major street and then turn

3:09:19lanes coming off the side and one signal

3:09:21controlling uh the intersection.

3:09:24It's similar to what Lufkin Road would

3:09:26look like to the north. Um like there

3:09:28just just that configuration. It would

3:09:30be more lanes than Lufkin Road provides.

3:09:35>> I Okay. to the town staff.

3:09:39Do you think if we go with this

3:09:44option?

3:09:46Um

3:09:48will the future traffic at this

3:09:51intersection

3:09:52be much worse

3:09:55if compared to we do a rci.

3:10:05So, the benefit with doing the rci here

3:10:08is that it's a corridor long improvement

3:10:10and it provides you the opportunity to

3:10:12progress through traffic differently in

3:10:16each direction in peak hour and it's

3:10:18also a trade-off of safety. Um, the rci

3:10:23is much safer. There's less severe

3:10:26crashes like left turn angles, running a

3:10:28red light, hitting that. Um, that's also

3:10:31one of the considerations. So, it's

3:10:33there's that saying you can have it

3:10:35fast, cheap, or correct. There's there's

3:10:38some tradeoffs here with it. Um, you

3:10:40know, the site traffic may have a little

3:10:43bit more delay coming out with the RCI,

3:10:46which like you said, the the roadway is

3:10:49already at capacity. It's it's already

3:10:51an issue. So, in setting up for the

3:10:54future, um, it would really be the

3:10:58recommendation.

3:10:59>> That's regular choice. And we have two

3:11:01other rcis coming at technology and uh

3:11:04and whatever the other road is. And then

3:11:06obviously

3:11:07>> actually I near that sweet water rci

3:11:11intersection. Yeah that's I mean it much

3:11:15better choice.

3:11:18Yeah,

3:11:19>> I think ultimately like if we have a

3:11:21plan to to to work on the highway,

3:11:24like every single time we get a project

3:11:27on one of these highways, we try to

3:11:28alter it to a different way and it's

3:11:30never going to get where we want to go

3:11:32unless we follow the plan. So, I really

3:11:33feel like we should do an RCI here,

3:11:35although I I am concerned about the cost

3:11:37impact and maybe willing to to give some

3:11:40certainty there around property

3:11:43acquisition.

3:11:45So, and just to kind of clarify the ask

3:11:48from staff, is is staff asking for the

3:11:50dual turn lane? Uh, so basically dual

3:11:54lane rci because what's on the picture

3:11:57here is a single lane, right? And that's

3:12:00basically what the applicant is saying

3:12:02that they're willing to construct. Is

3:12:04staff asking for more than this? Like in

3:12:07terms of the recommendation,

3:12:10>> correct? Staff is asking for a dual

3:12:11U-turn lane with a single U-turn lane.

3:12:13the QA backs out into through traffic.

3:12:16So, it can't process the traffic enough.

3:12:19Um, and it just again creates another

3:12:21safety concern on that corridor.

3:12:24>> And so, you know, going back to

3:12:27me's earlier question then, right, does

3:12:31when does that become a concern? Because

3:12:33if right now traffic is limited to site

3:12:36traffic, right, that comes out of the

3:12:39proposed site once it goes south, you

3:12:42know, that's north to go south first.

3:12:46That's fairly limited in terms of the

3:12:49number of vehicles right now. So, if

3:12:52this were to be built according to

3:12:53what's shown here, can this be expanded

3:12:57at a future point in time to be the dual

3:13:00lane that staff is asking for? So, the

3:13:04analysis that was done was just the site

3:13:06traffic doing the U-turn because there's

3:13:10um Jesse Drive isn't connected, so

3:13:11there's nobody else coming through for

3:13:12background. So, it's just serving the

3:13:15site traffic and with that volume and

3:13:17you're pushing against 3,000 vehicles an

3:13:20hour trying to go southbound,

3:13:22>> it's the time split, you get queuing.

3:13:25So, it would be a day one issue with a

3:13:27single turn

3:13:28>> signalized, right? So, there's there's

3:13:29going to be a traffic signal at at the

3:13:30turn. It it was a signalized dual U-turn

3:13:33signalized single U-turn cues out of the

3:13:35storage.

3:13:36>> Okay. And this is not signalized.

3:13:38>> It

3:13:39>> it would be I think this is just to show

3:13:41the

3:13:43>> their impacts.

3:13:44>> Okay. Sorry. So scenario two are you're

3:13:47saying involves a double turn lane like

3:13:50in Holly Springs the Okay. And just just

3:13:53showing an example single one here.

3:13:55>> Right. So it would require more

3:13:57rightaway than we're seeing here. It

3:13:58would go it would go in more.

3:14:01much safer and better.

3:14:06>> And just two points on that. One, the

3:14:08purpose of this diagram was to

3:14:09demonstrate we tried to get creative in

3:14:11a way to avoid impacts to adjacent

3:14:12businesses and keep it within the

3:14:13rideway. We just didn't have the ability

3:14:15to do it. Second, uh, Mayor Prom Mafy,

3:14:17you made a comment about um providing

3:14:19some either certainty or predictability

3:14:22associated with that cause. I think

3:14:23that's all fundamentally my client's

3:14:25biggest concern is, you know, kind of

3:14:26the the the blank check associated with

3:14:29what does this improvement look like? We

3:14:32don't know what the cost of if you take

3:14:34out the right-of-way acquisition, what

3:14:36that cost would be. I think that's

3:14:38something we would be um interested in

3:14:40taking

3:14:40>> right away acquisition. Take away the

3:14:43scenario of rightway acquisition that

3:14:44multiple taking like we're talking about

3:14:47right away in your typical sense where

3:14:48you're just getting the rightway for the

3:14:52uh for the bulb and not having to buy a

3:14:54whole business.

3:14:54>> I think I suggested taking out right

3:14:56away acquisition.

3:14:57>> Yeah, that's [clears throat]

3:14:59>> yeah.

3:15:00>> Um and I think that's something we don't

3:15:03have that information in front of us

3:15:04tonight unfortunately. I think that's

3:15:06something we could take a look at um and

3:15:08come back if that's the will of the

3:15:10council.

3:15:12We just don't know what that we just

3:15:13don't know what that number is.

3:15:16>> So, does it make sense to continue at a

3:15:19later meeting then?

3:15:20>> Maybe

3:15:22give you give the applicant some time to

3:15:23consider.

3:15:29>> Before we do that, I'd like to hear

3:15:32thoughts. kind of dominate the

3:15:33conversation that's going to have

3:15:35[clears throat]

3:15:43>> if we don't I mean are we going to open

3:15:44and close because I typically have a

3:15:46couple questions after if there if

3:15:48there's public if there's no public then

3:15:50>> all right we'll open up public hearing

3:15:52for comment no one's time to speak

3:15:53public hearing is closed

3:15:55discussion

3:15:56>> so the part that I mean to me the the

3:15:59the part I'm still struggling with here

3:16:01is and and I I've heard it a few times

3:16:04is we are ultimately kind of making some

3:16:10of these decisions based off of the

3:16:12assumption that we're going to have DOP

3:16:15actually do these projects.

3:16:18That to me is the part that I keep

3:16:20struggling with

3:16:22because I because you know it's like the

3:16:24reasoning portion I think is the e part

3:16:27for us. I don't see that as being the

3:16:28the the real issue here. And as I break

3:16:31down the transportation conflicts, it's

3:16:34driveway C. Whether or not that's a

3:16:36straight across, not offended by that.

3:16:39Um, the

3:16:43U-turn

3:16:45on the north side on 55.

3:16:49And I certainly don't want to get into

3:16:51the conversation about the property

3:16:54acquisition because I I I I truly cannot

3:16:56imagine any

3:16:59business there not saying no this is a

3:17:01total condemnation. I mean that's I mean

3:17:03that's a position you got to take you

3:17:05know so I I I don't know

3:17:12you know I think that's a that's a big

3:17:14check out there. Um

3:17:17the amount is you know I I mean not that

3:17:20I don't have a hesitation of putting

3:17:22that on an applicant to say well you

3:17:24guys want it you get it. But the part

3:17:26that I'm I I'm struggling with here is

3:17:28we are still operating under an

3:17:31operating assumption like these do

3:17:33movements are going to take place in the

3:17:35next five 10

3:17:3915 years. Um that's that's the point I'm

3:17:43struggling with and

3:17:47I think the dual

3:17:50U-turn makes sense. That definitely

3:17:53makes sense to me. And maybe a little

3:17:55bit more time to figure out, you know,

3:17:57what that cost is will uh will be a

3:18:00persuasive factor for us. But I mean,

3:18:02the piece that I'm

3:18:05honestly struggling with here is

3:18:10we're asking for an awful lot of

3:18:12assumptions for something that

3:18:16I mean 5 10 15 20 years. I mean, DOT is

3:18:22I mean, not to

3:18:24not to speak ill of them, they're doing

3:18:26the best they can. Their budget changes

3:18:28every year. There's a bunch of things

3:18:29that take place and any time there's an

3:18:31emergency someplace else, they've got to

3:18:33do repairs like Highway 12. Yeah. So, I

3:18:36feel like I I I I

3:18:39I'm asking myself the question of, you

3:18:41know, um

3:18:44you know, I I truly understand and

3:18:47appreciate my colleagues because I you

3:18:49know, I I these are points that I was

3:18:51wrestling with too. And the piece that I

3:18:53ultimately try to get to is the old

3:18:55idiom of is a burden in the hand better

3:18:58than worth better than two in the bush.

3:19:035.5 million

3:19:05and actual transportation infrastructure

3:19:09cost that's going to be borne by

3:19:10somebody else.

3:19:13Not going to lie, sounds attractive.

3:19:16That's kind of where I'm thinking on

3:19:18this whole thing right now. And that's

3:19:19my struggle point still comes down to

3:19:21the to the DOT um side of this which is

3:19:27you know

3:19:31I know we have to kind of plan around

3:19:32what DOT is going to do

3:19:36but part of me is saying let's be

3:19:37realistic about what DOT is going to do.

3:19:43>> How do I respond to that? I I think

3:19:46you're right. You know million or so

3:19:50worth of infrastructure improvements is

3:19:51incredibly attractive especially that's

3:19:55piece of Jesse drive you know that that

3:19:57fills in you know part of the way as

3:20:00we've been looking for

3:20:03but are we creating a much larger

3:20:04problem for ourselves in the future

3:20:07right which you know completely offset

3:20:09and then some the gain that we're

3:20:12getting in the shorter term

3:20:15>> no I think I think you're you're

3:20:17absolutely that is That is the struggle

3:20:19piece for me. Um, to me the real failure

3:20:21point comes on that dual

3:20:24uh dual U-turn lane. That to me is kind

3:20:26of like the the big failure point one

3:20:29that comes about the other failure

3:20:31points that are along there, you know,

3:20:35particularly as we're looking at the

3:20:38questions of

3:20:41DOT even

3:20:43taking Jesse Drive. Um, you know, there

3:20:47are a lot of permutations along the way

3:20:49that as I start thinking about the

3:20:51decision point down the road, I I'm

3:20:53struggling with that part, which is, you

3:20:56know, we're trying to do the best we can

3:20:57to address as many future problems as

3:21:00possible,

3:21:01but to me, that's where that tension

3:21:03lies, which is, okay, have we

3:21:07over assumed down the road?

3:21:17I really um

3:21:28Councilman Gray's point about DOT and

3:21:31this is not as you said they're working

3:21:33incredibly hard um and they've also been

3:21:37handed

3:21:38uh a compromised budget

3:21:41and I look at 64 before

3:21:45and I look at when and I see people now

3:21:48saying why didn't they why didn't they

3:21:49plan for this? It's been planned and

3:21:52we're just now going to start kicking

3:21:54off conversation about projects that we

3:21:56knew we needed 15 years ago, maybe

3:21:58longer.

3:22:00Um

3:22:02I'm wondering if the applicant needs

3:22:04more time to reconsider.

3:22:06Um,

3:22:09is that are there things that you folks

3:22:11need to go back to the drawing board, I

3:22:13guess, is the question that I would

3:22:14have.

3:22:16>> Can I ask one more question from staff

3:22:19and this might be relevant, so I hope

3:22:21it's relevant. The the major collector

3:22:24on the uh the western sites of these

3:22:27properties that we're talking about,

3:22:30is that going to be part of the Fidia

3:22:32buildout or are we waiting for those

3:22:34properties to sell?

3:22:37and then put in that major collector on

3:22:39the back end because I think

3:22:41realistically

3:22:42this whole project is only feasible if

3:22:45these properties have another access you

3:22:48know other than than 55 right we're

3:22:51going to run into this whether we

3:22:52develop Jesse drive or we ask the you

3:22:54know the applicant to develop Jesse

3:22:56drive all you know as soon as this

3:22:57connects we're going to have a major

3:23:00problem at that intersection you build

3:23:02it like fully signaled right now right

3:23:05that's becomes a choke point on an

3:23:07already, you know, very stretched or

3:23:10stressed corridor. And so if if we do

3:23:13need to have a dual lane turnaround

3:23:16bubble and everything and we're going to

3:23:18effectively be cutting at least two

3:23:20businesses off from 55,

3:23:23then the only I think viable solution

3:23:26for us here is having that road on on

3:23:28the back end of the properties on the

3:23:30western side to give these these

3:23:33property owners another out basically.

3:23:36>> Yes. So it it connects into Veridia or

3:23:38would connect into Veridia, but a couple

3:23:40different ways collector streets get

3:23:41built. Typically they're built by um the

3:23:44property owners as redevelopment occurs.

3:23:47Um the town doesn't typically build like

3:23:49collector streets um as unless it's

3:23:52something that we affect in terms of

3:23:54restricting access um to a business just

3:23:57like DOT. If DOT has a large project,

3:23:59just like the technology drive

3:24:00intersection project right now, they're

3:24:02building a collector connection in one

3:24:05of the neighborhoods um to resolve one

3:24:07of the access issues. So, it's not

3:24:08currently.

3:24:09>> Let me ask a question maybe a little bit

3:24:10differently. Do we have line of sight

3:24:12into developing this road? Do we do we

3:24:14have a timeline around that? um they

3:24:17would not connect through these parcels

3:24:19and they and they do not control of

3:24:22course the property on these parcels or

3:24:23that extension of Jesse Drive to

3:24:26actually connect to 55 at this time.

3:24:28>> I think he's asking about west of 55

3:24:32>> the the collector behind

3:24:34>> the collector behind these properties on

3:24:36the west side

3:24:37>> the collector behind the bull properties

3:24:39that one. Yeah,

3:24:39>> this one here.

3:24:40>> Yeah. So this is the one. So back here,

3:24:42yes, this is in Veridia, but where it

3:24:45cuts through this these properties is

3:24:47not. So the so the question is who would

3:24:49actually build this road through these

3:24:51properties? And Vidia wouldn't be doing

3:24:53that unless they actually purchase these

3:24:56properties and develop these properties.

3:24:57Um, the only other person that would do

3:24:59it would be, you know, if someone else

3:25:00was either these properties would would

3:25:02build it or reserve rightaway as part of

3:25:04development or if access was cut off by

3:25:07a large project on NC55,

3:25:09then access could be connected. This

3:25:11road could be constructed as part of

3:25:13that project to provide a connection.

3:25:20>> Any other questions?

3:25:27What would you like?

3:25:28>> Yeah, just again in response to

3:25:30Councilman Reese's question associated

3:25:32with things that we may need to study.

3:25:33Uh yeah, I mean I think ultimately if

3:25:35it's it's the council's desire for us to

3:25:37study what a fee inl looks like for that

3:25:40turnaround, that's something we need to

3:25:42put some pen to paper on and make sure

3:25:44that um when we come back and and talk

3:25:47to you about it, we know exactly what

3:25:48that means in terms of cost, project

3:25:51viability, and impacts. So, we'd be

3:25:54happy to take a look at that if that's

3:25:55the will of the council.

3:25:58>> Yeah,

3:26:00I think that would it sounds like that's

3:26:02a

3:26:04a vibe that I'm feeling up here. So,

3:26:06>> how uh how long do you think you need

3:26:08for that office?

3:26:14>> 30 days. So, come back in.

3:26:17>> What about C and D?

3:26:20>> C and E media.

3:26:21>> Yeah. Yeah.

3:26:22>> Other other conflict points like my my

3:26:25initial impression maybe naive earlier

3:26:27was you build it as full access now and

3:26:29when it connects you have to convert it

3:26:32or DOT makes you convert it

3:26:34>> or something like that. And did I hear

3:26:36you say you think DOT will make you

3:26:38convert it if it's necessary? Like what

3:26:41what was that? Because I'll tell you our

3:26:43intention is to connect Jess or my

3:26:44intention is to connect Jesse Drive.

3:26:46Yep. The day I can do it.

3:26:47>> Yep.

3:26:47>> And

3:26:48>> and turn it over to DOT. turn it over to

3:26:50DOT the next day. So, I I do I think

3:26:52that connection is vital and and part of

3:26:54the reason I'm pushing on the RCI is

3:26:56because like guys, we have a plan to try

3:26:59to improve the traffic in an area that

3:27:01we're going to get beat up on for having

3:27:04horrible traffic today and horrible

3:27:05traffic after the hospital comes and

3:27:06after the school comes. we got a plan

3:27:08and it's all these rcis and then we keep

3:27:11chipping away at it and and this is one

3:27:13example but also there was like a bridge

3:27:14before we took away and there's other

3:27:15and there's always stuff like it's going

3:27:17to impact the businesses and either we

3:27:19push forward it or we don't and these

3:27:20are the kind of the decisions where the

3:27:22whole plan falls apart or and we just

3:27:24admit there really is no plan it's going

3:27:26to be just you know 20 lights down the

3:27:28road you know um but traffic backs up

3:27:31right here you know and I think uh I

3:27:35understand the traffic study and I I I

3:27:37know you guys are smarter than stuff

3:27:39than I am. But I just I don't get how uh

3:27:42a full movement intersection here can do

3:27:43anything besides make traffic worse.

3:27:45Whereas in rci during rush hour when

3:27:48everyone's going north, it should be

3:27:50better. When everyone's going south, it

3:27:51should be better. And and yes, if

3:27:53traffic is like split between it, it's

3:27:54effectively one intersection, one

3:27:56traffic signal. But the splitting is the

3:27:58point and and the traffic patterns are

3:28:01um you know, they're not homogeneous

3:28:04across the day. Um, so I I guess I'm

3:28:07arguing for we should stick to the plan

3:28:10and uh I think we can work on the I at

3:28:15least would be willing to work on the

3:28:16the Lou. I understand you don't want to

3:28:19have to buy a bunch of businesses and

3:28:20that's not going to work. You know, our

3:28:22staff has told us they don't think maybe

3:28:23they can. Maybe we'll get lucky, you

3:28:25know, and we can we can try to do it and

3:28:27see if it's without it. Um, but if

3:28:29they're going to redevelop anyway, we

3:28:31can end up getting this through. um you

3:28:33know I'm not sure who's doing it but uh

3:28:37other stuff could happen and

3:28:40the approach where you have a fee and

3:28:42loo that's reasonable

3:28:44and proportional and then if the

3:28:47rightway doesn't work out you end up

3:28:48building your full movement anyway

3:28:50doesn't feel too different than what we

3:28:52what you're asking for you know if it's

3:28:53just about money um but I don't really

3:28:57want to give up on the rci and giving up

3:28:59on getting the right away for the rci

3:29:00quite yet Um, oh yeah. As far as the CE

3:29:04goes, like, uh, again, remind me, are

3:29:07you saying DOT would make you connect

3:29:09it?

3:29:10>> Yeah.

3:29:11>> To turn it over like when we give them

3:29:13Jesse Drive,

3:29:13>> I'll defer to traffic

3:29:14>> or they will they look go to us and say,

3:29:16"We're not taking this because this has

3:29:17a full movement and then it's our

3:29:18problem."

3:29:18>> Yeah. I mean, it's going to be a public

3:29:19street, so it's going to be out of our

3:29:21hands in terms of how access gets

3:29:22restricted, you know. Yeah. Okay. Well,

3:29:25I mean, all we're trying to do is to

3:29:27establish patterns of behavior

3:29:29associated with re the retail um for

3:29:32this period of time when we don't know

3:29:33when Jesse drive is going to be

3:29:35connected. It's it's good for retailers

3:29:37as they're setting up shop.

3:29:38>> What if you paid another fee and loo to

3:29:39convert it and then and that was held

3:29:42and we had a certain time frame to

3:29:43connect Jesse Drive and if it's not

3:29:45connected within X number of years, you

3:29:48get the fee loo back. If it is

3:29:49connected, we take the FEM, we use it to

3:29:51convert it over to to a reduced

3:29:53movement. I think that's something we

3:29:54can look at.

3:29:54>> All right. Still have it out there.

3:29:57>> I just want to say I I think I don't

3:29:59want to speak for my colleagues, but I

3:30:01think we're um I I think at the very

3:30:05least I will say I'm trying to get to

3:30:07Yes. Um and it's also things that are

3:30:10out of both your side of the table's

3:30:12control, our side of table's control,

3:30:14and just the reality of how slow these

3:30:17DOT projects move.

3:30:18>> Y Thank you. I I kind of want to second

3:30:21that like, you know, I I I like the

3:30:23development. I I like what we're

3:30:25proposing here. Um it's the connectivity

3:30:28and and the potential for again like

3:30:31creating an even bigger traffic problem

3:30:33that we already have along this 55

3:30:35corridor that we need to figure out how

3:30:37we're going to do. [clears throat] Um

3:30:38you know, the the CE

3:30:41movements don't really hurt my head that

3:30:43much, right? And I think that if we're

3:30:44just taking lanes away, I think

3:30:46conversion is is actually fairly

3:30:49straightforward. I don't think it's

3:30:50going to be terribly expensive.

3:30:52Uh so I think, you know, the request

3:30:54that's made premises that just made is

3:30:56is reasonable. That's this is really

3:30:58that's 55 intersection. That's we need

3:31:01to shine a another light on. I think I

3:31:05think the concern with the conversion

3:31:06I'm remembering now staff saying like

3:31:08look it's not necessarily the money or

3:31:09the time is the fact that it'll be

3:31:11occupied with businesses who will come

3:31:14here and scream bloody murder that we're

3:31:16taking away return that they need for

3:31:18the business because they've had it and

3:31:20they're used to it. Taking away

3:31:21something someone has is a lot harder

3:31:23than setting up initially as having uh

3:31:26not having that movement.

3:31:28>> Yeah, I actually um you know

3:31:32think this project is

3:31:34It's great because we need more

3:31:37commercial properties like industrial

3:31:40properties to ease the tax burden on our

3:31:43residents. This is a good project. My

3:31:46concern um is you know similar to my

3:31:49colleagues when we uh make new

3:31:53development like especially you know

3:31:56commercial there will be you know lots

3:31:59of traffic.

3:32:01We have to make longer plans, right?

3:32:04planning long term to ease the traffic

3:32:07concerns in the future. Because

3:32:11whenever we try to, you know, uh make

3:32:15make it easier here and there

3:32:19just

3:32:22um just to make things going forward

3:32:26that we create bigger problems in 10

3:32:29years, 10 years, 15 years. So it's kind

3:32:33of not being responsible to our

3:32:36residents

3:32:38and that's why I believe this

3:32:41intersection

3:32:43should should be built with rci. So

3:32:48let's work together try to solve this

3:32:50problem.

3:32:53>> All right. December 17.

3:32:54>> I'll make a motion to continue to

3:32:56December 17th.

3:32:57>> Second

3:32:59say all in favor say I.

3:33:02Thank you all.

3:33:10Mr. Bible,

3:33:12>> estimated time. What do you think?

3:33:15>> All right.

3:33:15>> Okay, cool. I was going to take a break,

3:33:17but I think we're good. All right.

3:33:20>> He said he said five minutes.

3:33:21>> Oh, yeah. Let's do it. [laughter]

3:33:24>> What is it? Incredible.

3:33:28[laughter]

3:33:30>> All right.

3:33:31>> Yeah.

3:33:32>> Uh before you today, we have resoning

3:33:34case 26 CZ10. Very expansion number

3:33:36five. You've already seen four of these

3:33:38expansions come your way. Very looking

3:33:40to add about eight parcels to their

3:33:41property approximate size of 23 acres.

3:33:44And we'll go through that for you real

3:33:46quick. Again, you're very familiar where

3:33:48Verid is to the southwest nearby 41 and

3:33:5155.

3:33:53You can see here on the map and also

3:33:54included in your packet, these eight

3:33:56properties are located on different

3:33:57areas of the adjacent to the Verdia site

3:34:00itself. Again, it's about 23 acres. Um,

3:34:02these are hoping to be brought in as

3:34:04part of the development. As part of them

3:34:05being brought in, Verdia is not seeking

3:34:07to ex to increase any of their densities

3:34:09for residential, commercial, anything

3:34:11like that. So, everything will stay the

3:34:12same that way. They just like to bring

3:34:13these in under the overall SD plan. So,

3:34:17the UDO does allow this. Again, this has

3:34:19happened four times before this. As long

3:34:21as they meet the criteria in section

3:34:232.316

3:34:24of the sustainable development

3:34:25conditional zoning district, these

3:34:27properties can be brought in if they

3:34:28meet the criteria which is having the uh

3:34:30controlling party's signature being

3:34:33within 2,000 ft and other items.

3:34:37Should this be approved, they will be uh

3:34:40they'd have to adhere to the recent

3:34:41approval of the 25 CZ18 VI amendment.

3:34:44They'd also have to apply and be uh in

3:34:46compliance with the environmental

3:34:47enhancement plan and the VIDIA pattern

3:34:49book as well.

3:34:52Um here's just a general resoning of

3:34:53what these parcels look like. They have

3:34:55varied [clears throat] in zoning from um

3:34:57rural residential residential

3:34:58agricultural and um light industrial

3:35:01this time.

3:35:03Should they be reszone, they'd be part

3:35:04of the SD plan moving forward.

3:35:08Uh the land use map already shows this

3:35:10area as being marked as the regional

3:35:12mixeduse section. If it were to be

3:35:14changed, it would be approved to that.

3:35:16Um, if you have any questions, I'm happy

3:35:17to answer them. And also the applicant

3:35:19is here to speak. It has a small

3:35:20presentation if you'd like to see that

3:35:22as well.

3:35:22>> Any questions?

3:35:25>> What are the restrictions?

3:35:27>> So, rodeo feels pretty viral like it can

3:35:29just sort of gobble up these properties

3:35:31and get sucked in and our UDO allows it

3:35:33to expand. Is there a limit to that? I'm

3:35:34trying to look it up exactly how it

3:35:35works.

3:35:36>> Yeah. So, the section can be all Apex

3:35:38eventually. [laughter] Uh so the

3:35:40restriction is that the signature from

3:35:41the central line partner within 2,000 ft

3:35:43of the district and let's see

3:35:47what's the third one those are the two

3:35:49there they have written down or the

3:35:51primary that is within the district so I

3:35:53guess there could be a concern that as

3:35:55this expands the 2t expand as well um

3:35:58>> yeah abs absolutely yes um these parcels

3:36:01would have would struggle to be

3:36:03developed as part of their current

3:36:05zoning districts if they were to remain

3:36:06as well so I understand your concern

3:36:08completely I don't know how much this

3:36:09affects these these parcels are also

3:36:11right on the periphery.

3:36:12>> Gonna pop across US uh one and and start

3:36:16grabbing property there and go up tingen

3:36:17and

3:36:18>> maybe they'll take Jesse drive property.

3:36:19I don't [laughter]

3:36:20>> Yeah, I'm not sure.

3:36:22>> They have big plans for Apex, but yeah,

3:36:24I'm not sure on that. The applicant is

3:36:26here to speak if you'd like to ask those

3:36:27questions of them.

3:36:28>> Yeah. Okay, I'll ask her.

3:36:30>> Yeah. [laughter]

3:36:34>> Sorry, Tish.

3:36:37There you go.

3:36:40Good evening, mayor, members of council.

3:36:42Leticia Shapiro, Morning Star Law Group

3:36:43here on behalf of the applicant, RXR

3:36:45Realy. Um, Bruce has done a great job

3:36:48giving you the details of the case. And

3:36:49so, the proposed resoning it, what it

3:36:52represents is another uh step in RXR's

3:36:55vision of uh incorporating additional

3:36:58properties that are located between US1

3:37:01and Highway 55 and north of 540 into the

3:37:04uh Vidia sustainable development plan.

3:37:07And yes, they would be if approved uh

3:37:09they uh would be uh part of the SD plan

3:37:13and uh subject to the established

3:37:16standards and commitments including that

3:37:18environmental enhancement plan that is a

3:37:20reflection of the continued

3:37:21collaboration between the town and RXR

3:37:25uh to implement a very thoughtful

3:37:26comprehensive vision for this very

3:37:28important part of the community. RXR

3:37:30remains committed to being an engaged

3:37:32and responsible community partner and is

3:37:35invested in the long-term success of

3:37:37Apex. So with that, I will open up to

3:37:39any questions that you might have for

3:37:41me.

3:37:41>> Yeah, I will say no.

3:37:43>> No, we can't. No, I mean, we have a law

3:37:45that says they're allowed to expand

3:37:46within 2,000 ft. So, I mean, we could,

3:37:48but then they would sue us and say,

3:37:49"Hey, you have a law that says you're

3:37:50allowed to add stuff in." Right.

3:37:53>> True. But I do think that

3:37:57the the conditions that we have put in

3:37:59here are actually how do I best say this

3:38:02favorable for us. These are generally

3:38:05good conditions. If we could impose

3:38:07these in many other places, we would be

3:38:09able to do a lot more in terms of

3:38:11moderating. [clears throat]

3:38:12>> I mean, they were pretty good for 2011.

3:38:14I mean, so I'm just saying

3:38:15hypothetically you could buy a parcel

3:38:17north of 64 along Tingen that's within

3:38:19just over 2,000 feet and you could buy

3:38:21it and we'd be obligated to zone that in

3:38:23the SD plan, right?

3:38:24>> Hypothetically speaking, if

3:38:26[clears throat] that was the long-term

3:38:26vision and then hold on. So another

3:38:292,000 ft north, you're getting close to

3:38:32like a village apex south. You could buy

3:38:34like, you know, a little corner right

3:38:36away, couple feet and zone that in

3:38:40>> hypothetically the way. And then once

3:38:42you get a parcel in the center of town,

3:38:43then you can just go anywhere. Then

3:38:45you're just like, Verdia could be any

3:38:46parcel you can buy within 2,000 ft of

3:38:49the uh of the parcel regardless of the

3:38:51size that you acquire or whoever.

3:38:53>> Yeah. And I understand that and I do I I

3:38:56understand where you're coming from, but

3:38:57I do um believe that the collaboration

3:39:00between RXR and the town and the vision

3:39:04of of um that RXR has for the SD plan

3:39:08really does center itself between those

3:39:12>> in that dimension of Highway 155 and

3:39:16north of 540.

3:39:18and um and again picking up these

3:39:20parcels that um would otherwise be hard

3:39:24to develop in their current reszoning

3:39:27and um you know not expanding the

3:39:32densities the densities are staying the

3:39:34same. So um but I do see your point

3:39:37100%.

3:39:38>> Okay.

3:39:43>> Thank you so much.

3:39:44>> Thank you.

3:39:44>> All right. Open up public hearing

3:39:46comment. No one signed states. Close. Is

3:39:48there a motion?

3:39:49>> A motion to approve.

3:39:50>> All right.

3:39:51>> Second.

3:39:51>> All in favor say I.

3:39:53>> I. Carry. All right. Is there a motion

3:39:56going to close session?

3:39:57>> Motion to go into close session. Second.

3:39:58>> All right. Sec. All in favor say I.

3:40:00>> I.

3:40:03Close session. Do we expect

3:40:04[clears throat] any business to come out

3:40:06of the closed session?

4:23:03Good.

4:23:06Second.

4:23:14>> Thank you.

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