2026-08-20 - Environmental Advisory Board Meeting Part I

00:56Yeah.

00:59>> You want me to

16:48Good evening. Uh I am calling to order

16:50the Environmental Advisory Board uh for

16:53August 20th, 2026. It is uh 6:00 p.m. Um

16:59can um pledge of allegiance.

17:03Yeah. Can we stand for the pledge of

17:04allegiance, please?

17:18>> Oh my gosh. [laughter]

17:21>> Um, okay.

17:23To the flag of the United States of

17:26America and to the republic for it

17:29stands one nation under Godisible

17:34and justice for all.

17:38>> Thank you everyone. Uh sorry about that.

17:41Um I uh would like to say good evening

17:43to everyone. Um everyone here uh

17:47presidents of Apex makes me very happy

17:49to see your faces here. Um, returning

17:52board members, uh, new board members.

17:55Um, we have, uh, Courtney. Welcome,

17:57Courtney. Um, we have Kim, right? And

18:01Romesh. Um, Kim, you are returning board

18:05member. So,

18:06>> from years ago.

18:07>> From years ago. All right. Um, Apex

18:10staff and, uh, council member, welcome.

18:14Um so um [clears throat] first uh

18:18approval of minutes uh for May 21st,

18:212026.

18:24Do I have a motion to approve the

18:26minutes?

18:27>> I'll make a motion.

18:29>> Do I have a second?

18:31>> Second.

18:31>> Second.

18:32>> I have a item to um

18:35in the meeting minutes from the data

18:39center number five meeting. It was not

18:41captured on page eight around lines nine

18:45and 10. I had asked if any

18:48municipalities had taken the revenue

18:50from the data centers and set up

18:53something like Alaska has for their oil

18:55and gas revenues to share them back with

18:57the community and Bruce had mentioned

18:59that he wasn't aware of any. I would

19:01just like that captured in those

19:02minutes.

19:06>> A motion for that.

19:11Do I have a second?

19:12>> Yeah, I can second on that.

19:14>> All right. Awesome. Thank you. All

19:16right. Um, do I have a motion to approve

19:18the minutes for June 18th, 2026?

19:22>> Doing these all as one motion or

19:25>> um not sure.

19:28>> Oh, okay. Do I have a motion to approve

19:31all the minutes for the um the two last

19:35um EAB meetings and the data center

19:38subcommittee and the tree canopy

19:40subcommittee?

19:42>> I move they be adopted with the

19:45adjustments that were made by

19:49>> second.

19:50>> Second. All right.

19:53[clears throat] Um

19:55>> got a vote.

19:56>> We got a vote.

19:57>> Yeah.

19:57>> Okay. All in favor.

19:58>> All in favor? I

20:01>> I All right. Thank you. Sorry. Uh first

20:03time doing this. Thank you, Suzanne. Um

20:06All right. Uh I would like to move on to

20:08the public comment period.

20:12All right. Um

20:17All right. U first on the list is

20:21Melinda Salter.

20:27>> [clears throat]

20:30>> And Melinda, you're speaking for a

20:32group. Is that correct?

20:33>> A group of four that will not be

20:34speaking.

20:35>> Okay. Thank you.

20:36>> So, I just want to remind you that you

20:37have nine minutes.

20:38>> Thank you.

20:40>> Thank you, Chair Vay. Okay. And members

20:44of the board, would everyone from the

20:46Groves please stand?

20:52Thank you.

20:53My name is Melinda Salter. I live at 129

20:56Old Grove Lane. And I'm speaking tonight

20:58as a representative who's able to attend

21:01on behalf of the Groves and several

21:03adjoining neighborhoods that are

21:04impacted by the property at 1328 Center

21:08Street. I'm not speaking only to my own

21:11concerns tonight. I'm carrying the

21:13concerns of neighbors who could not be

21:15here on this short notice, each of whom

21:17would ordinarily have stood up

21:18individually to speak to a piece of this

21:21case.

21:22I want to begin by thanking the board

21:25for this opportunity. Case 26Z CZ13 does

21:30not require a hearing before you. The

21:33parcel comes in at 4.42 acres, just

21:37under the 10 acre threshold that would

21:39trigger the EAB re. I'm here anyway

21:43because the question this project

21:44questions this project raises are

21:46exactly the questions this board exists

21:49to ask.

21:51First,

21:52why am I the one standing here? My

21:55property backs directly onto this site.

21:58My patio looks onto this parcel and so

22:00does my bedroom window. Under the plan

22:03already approved for this land in 2024,

22:06that meant a 30foot buffer and a

22:09two-story building on the other side of

22:11it. Under what's proposed now, that

22:14becomes a 15t buffer and a 54 foot

22:18fourstory building. That is what I will

22:20see every time I step onto my patio or

22:23look out the window. Second, the

22:26exemption itself.

22:28This land came before this board in

22:30January of 2024. The developer accepted

22:3312 environmental conditions as a result.

22:36Protections for the stream buffer,

22:38native plantings, tree diversity, dark

22:41skylighting.

22:43That same land now proposed for a taller

22:45denser project is exempt from this

22:47board's review entirely because of this

22:49acreage line. The result, two voluntary

22:53conditions, a storm water standard and

22:56two pet waste stations. That is the

23:00entire environmental commitment for a

23:02project four times denser what stood

23:04there before. Third, water in the creek.

23:09This site sits within a watershed

23:11protection overlay. Our understanding is

23:14the Middle Creek wershed, though the

23:16application's own documents don't even

23:18agree with each other on this point. And

23:20I'd ask the board to board to help

23:21clarify. What is not in dispute is the

23:25scale of new imperous surface, roughly

23:28130 apartment units, plus parking and

23:31driveways, replacing what is largely

23:33open ground today. The 2024 review

23:37secured a real condition that

23:39postdevelopment runoff not exceeded

23:42pre-development runoff measured against

23:45the one-year, 10year, and 25-year storms

23:48and a rule against clearing the buff the

23:51stream buffer. Neither is guaranteed at

23:53this time. Fourth, trees buffer and

23:57wildlife. A mature stand of trees and a

24:00vegetated buffer currently separates

24:02this site site from the town houses

24:04behind it. The 12 conditions this board

24:07negotiated in 2024, native plantings

24:10chosen for pollinator and bird food

24:12sources, a minimum of three hardwood

24:15species, dark sky compliant lighting to

24:18protect nocturnal wildlife apply only if

24:21the smaller fallback plan gets built,

24:24not the apartment plan actually being

24:26proposed.

24:27The habitat protections this bo board

24:30fought for are optional under the

24:32primary request in front of the town.

24:35Fifth, traffic as an environmental

24:38question, not just a congestion one.

24:41Density on this site nearly quadruples

24:44for roughly seven units per acre per

24:47acre to nearly 27. That means more

24:50vehicle emissions, more oil and

24:53particulate runoff on a corridor

24:55corridor whose planned widening remains

24:58unfunded by the state until at least

25:002035.

25:02Landing buffers landing on buffers that

25:04are at the same time being cut in half.

25:08Sixth,

25:10construction itself.

25:12Before any tune tun tenant moves in,

25:15this community will absorb months or

25:18years of heavy equipment working ground

25:20that sits above a creek and directly

25:22above our homes. Dust in the air and

25:24without careful erosion and sediment

25:26control, slit and runoff reaching Middle

25:29Creek and our yards with every storm

25:31during the build. Sediment control this

25:33close to water is precisely the kind of

25:35condition this board would ordinarily

25:38attach. This project was not required to

25:41ask.

25:42>> [clears throat]

25:42>> So my request tonight is three-fold and

25:44it does not require this board to exceed

25:46its authority. First, consider going on

25:49record noting that this parcel received

25:51full environmental review and 12

25:54accepted conditions in 2024

25:56and recommend those same protections be

25:58expected again regardless of the

26:00exemption. Second,

26:03consider recommending council revisit

26:05the 10 acre threshold itself.

26:09And third, if there's any mechanism for

26:10this board to send its own environmental

26:13concerns to town council ahead of the

26:15planning board and council hearings

26:17later this year, I ask that you use it.

26:20This community is not opposed to

26:21housing. We're asking that whatever gets

26:24built on this land be held to the same

26:26environmental standard the last plan for

26:28this exact site was held to, not a

26:31lesser one, simply because fewer of

26:33fewer of us could be in this room

26:35tonight to say so ourselves. Thank you

26:37for your time and for the work that the

26:39board does. I'm glad to answer any

26:41questions. Thank you.

26:44>> Thank you, Miss Alter.

26:47>> Richard Hayden.

26:52>> Mr. Hayden, if you can state your name

26:54and address, please. And you have one.

26:56You have three minutes. I'm sorry.

26:58>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of

27:01the committee. My name is Richard

27:02Hayden. Excuse me. My wife and I own and

27:05live at 51 Old Grave Grove Lane here in

27:08Apex,

27:10and we have done so since 2009 when our

27:12house was built.

27:14Having sought the perfect place to spend

27:16our retirement years, we were pleased to

27:18find Apex, and it has become our peak of

27:21good living. Not a joke. It's everything

27:24that our son-in-law, Lauren Gold,

27:26executive vice president of the Raleigh

27:28Convention and Visitors Bureau, told us

27:30it would be.

27:32Thank you for the opportunity to share

27:34some thoughts with you concerning the

27:35resoning request by TWWC Development and

27:38Morning Star Law Group.

27:41The developer proposes construction of a

27:42planned unit development project

27:44consisting of 132 unit fourstory walk up

27:47highdensity affordable housing apartment

27:50complex on land unsuited for this use.

27:57uh if they are going to be permitted to

27:59undertake the project, I believe it'll

28:01negatively impact the environment of our

28:03town of Apex.

28:06The minute goes by very, very quickly.

28:10They're presenting a project that by

28:12virtue of what is happening, it does not

28:15maintain and acknowledge the natural

28:18terrain to a reasonable extent and

28:20practical. They do not maintain and

28:22encourage native plant and wildlife

28:24species. They do not prov improve

28:26bicycle and pedestrian

28:29uh environment. They do not consider the

28:31visual aesthetics as they pertain to the

28:34natural environment. They do not

28:35preserve and/or improve shade and tree

28:38canopy. They do not improve the current

28:41environmental protections and they do

28:43not reduce waste. They do not reduce the

28:45town's carbon footprint. and the project

28:48negatively impacts Apex maintaining both

28:52its Tree City USA and B City USA

28:55designations.

28:57I also believe the applicant's plan

28:59project would be a blight on the

29:00environment to what visitors to our

29:02community would encounter as they enter

29:03Apex from the east. Crossing US Highway

29:061, visitors headed toward our wonderful

29:08revitalized downtown first encounter the

29:11beautiful entry of our Waterford Green

29:13community. Next, they pass by the lovely

29:16Seagroves community and our town of Apex

29:18Seagroves Family Park. Then they

29:21encounter the delight de delightful

29:23Groves Town Homes community that is

29:25spread across both sides of Center

29:27Street. I hate to think of them seeing

29:29instead a group of fourstory walk up

29:31apartment buildings on the left side.

29:34Apartment buildings that will add

29:36nothing positive to the environment.

29:39Thank you. Any questions?

29:43Okay. Thank you.

29:46[clears throat]

29:49Bob Hle,

30:00>> Pat Hle,

30:05>> Laura Grimes,

30:11[clears throat]

30:12>> uh, Robert Owen, 822 Myrtle Grove Lane.

30:17Uh my opinion is a little different. Uh

30:21we were told numerous times reminded

30:24that we have people who work for the

30:26city who cannot afford to live here and

30:29that has been a problem for a long time

30:32and it's worth addressing.

30:35Uh policemen, firemen, health care

30:38workers, teachers

30:40who must live out from the city to work

30:43here. And it would be worthwhile for

30:46that to be uh there's nothing

30:48contractual about that. It was more

30:51promisary in the domain I would call uh

30:55truth in lending.

30:57And I hope that proves to be the truth.

31:01Uh I don't think we would have any

31:03recourse if it's not. But that's what we

31:05were told. I live on the north side of

31:08Center Street. There are times in the

31:10morning and afternoon

31:12when I cannot get in line to go downtown

31:16unless there's some kind person who will

31:18let me in. Uh people on the south side,

31:21if they are indeed city workers, are

31:24going to have extreme difficulty

31:27failing, being brave and aggressive to

31:30be able to get in line to go downtown.

31:34And I don't know of a solution for that.

31:37Thank you.

31:39Thank you.

31:46Don Grimes.

31:48Yeah.

31:53Grimes. If you state your name and your

31:55address, please.

31:56>> Okay. My name is Laura Grimes.

31:59I live at 210 South Salem Street.

32:03Um, and I do own a My husband and I own

32:06a property in the Gloves and we're very

32:08proud of having owned it. We think that

32:12subdivision is just beautiful

32:15and uh we we feel very fortunate that we

32:19were able to buy buy a property there

32:22when we did. Um, but I'm I'm here to

32:25speak uh to you as environmentalists

32:29about this resoning that's coming up.

32:32Uh, as Melinda has pointed out,

32:36um, this has come up, this area has come

32:40up for reasonzoning several times and

32:43been,

32:44uh, the reasoning was declined. Um, and

32:48I don't think that this effort at

32:50resoning is serious either because they

32:53have a backup plan behind this plan. you

32:56know, they've got this one for 132 units

32:59and they've got another one behind it

33:01for 30 units. Why two? You know, if

33:04you're serious. Um, but uh I'm really

33:10wanting to speak to you about a

33:12confluence of activities that are going

33:16on in the area near the resoning.

33:21Um the first one is that the property

33:26adjacent to uh immediately adjacent to

33:30uh the 1328 Center Street

33:34um has been sold

33:38and uh will probably be coming to you

33:41for

33:43uh consideration

33:45uh of redevelopment. That is the Calvary

33:48Chapel property. It doesn't look like a

33:51church. It looks like a commercial

33:54building, but um it has

33:58uh 9.4 acres

34:01and uh most of those acres are

34:06uh a heavily wooded parking area.

34:10And that the trees on that are gorgeous.

34:14really tall, really beautiful trees and

34:18uh something that if it were

34:19incorporated into a subdivision, a

34:22housing subdivision, it's laid out. It's

34:24already got lots of space in the middle,

34:25but the trees could be reserved,

34:28preserved, and uh well used, I think.

34:32And um like I said, it's been sold u and

34:36so I don't know what the developer's

34:38plans are, but if and when they come to

34:41you, it would make a very nice addition

34:43to the area. Um

34:46and uh so when you add the the 9.4 four

34:50acres there and the 4 point whatever

34:53acres that are in the current property

34:56to be reszoned. You basically got a 15

34:59acre area that's fairly flat. I mean,

35:03it's basically right up there to be uh

35:07reszoned. And um so that and if I can

35:13add one other point um this area is

35:16being

35:18um

35:19quote investigated and worked on studied

35:23by the department of transportation

35:26starting at um Shifflin Road and going

35:30down to Reliance Avenue.

35:33And this that particular area is being

35:37studied to redo to widen the road and to

35:42redo the intersection of Highway 1 and

35:4710 road. And so the impact of traffic

35:50from this immediate area, this little

35:54plot of land right here in purple, um is

35:59that land and and the other land next to

36:01it are going to have a big impact on

36:04what they will be studying and what they

36:06decide to do.

36:08So, what I'd like to ask you to do is

36:11bring your attention to this collection

36:15of issues right at the very point that

36:19we're going to have a change in in uh

36:24things that are done by the Department

36:26of Transportation.

36:28So, thank you for giving me these few

36:31moments of your time. Thank

36:32>> you, M. Grimes.

36:35Don Grimes.

36:43>> Mr. Grimes, I think you state your name.

36:45[clears throat]

36:47>> I'm Don Grimes. I live at 210 with Laura

36:50and we've been there for 36 years. Um,

36:54and we're fortunate enough for one of

36:56these units, one of these very

36:59attractive units center on Center Street

37:02to come available. And uh we had been

37:04hoping one would for a long time. One

37:06finally did and we jumped on it. And uh

37:10we think that uh it's the nicest

37:12uh town home subdivision in Apex, both

37:16sides of the street. And uh we don't

37:18want to see something that is going to

37:20come in intrude

37:23vigorously and objectionably to the

37:26calmness, the serenity, the quiet of

37:31these communities.

37:33And uh here is the map or the sketch

37:38that was submitted by the petitioner.

37:41And uh it's within this section right

37:45here. All you see here and all that is

37:48on here essentially 95% of it are is

37:52fourtory

37:54apartment buildings four of them and the

37:56rest of it is essentially a parking lot.

37:59Now if that's not the definition of a

38:01heat island I don't know what is and

38:05this as my wife has indicated is a very

38:08very densely wooded area. you're going

38:11to have to go in there and there's no

38:12way that you could have this this

38:14particular development to take place

38:17unless you went in there and clearcut

38:19everything in it. That's the only way it

38:21could happen. So we beg of you to be

38:25sensitive to that fact and the fact that

38:29everything around it is very consistent

38:34uh very architecturally attractive and

38:38this would be a uh just really a an

38:41eyesore among other things. So anyway,

38:45thank you so much for your time. Resor,

38:49[clears throat]

38:58>> Dennis Smith,

39:00>> I'm not speaking.

39:02>> And Griffith,

39:07Anita Albert,

39:12Dean Koopa.

39:16Hey Dean, if you could state your name

39:18and your address, please.

39:20>> Good evening.

39:22U Dean Krupa, 2001 Sima Court. Um good

39:26evening uh EAB.

39:29I I I've been staying away from the

39:32local government for quite some time. Um

39:36uh I'm sure like a lot of us, we're

39:38frustrated with government at the

39:39national, state, and local levels. Um, I

39:43just feel like it's a frustrating

39:45process. There's a lot of bureaucracy.

39:48Um, but I have made some really neat

39:51connections over the last couple years

39:54and I have hope again. Um, especially

39:57with this group. I've worked with some

39:59of you. Um, Nora, oh Ann, I remember

40:02you. Um, but, uh, Daniel, we we met. We

40:07had a couple chance encounters. uh most

40:09recently at the the gardener pollinator

40:12event at the Apex Nature Park and there

40:16was a couple other chance encounters at

40:17the soccer field. So, we're meant to

40:20work together, I feel like. Um but I've

40:23been working with Trees for the

40:24Triangle. Um and I just joined their

40:27board of directors. Um and some of you

40:30have worked with them and as you know

40:32they're they're helping host the

40:33triangle symposium. Um amazing

40:37organization. Uh Dave Climpmp, who's the

40:39uh director, started it out of the back

40:42of his truck, uh you know, he was

40:44basically just out of college and um

40:47wanted to plant some trees. Um and it

40:50was just him and he's helped start a a

40:52tree archive in in Kerry. Um he inspired

40:56me to start my own archive which I've

40:58worked dur and I try to start one here

41:00in Apex but unfortunately that fell

41:02through and we ended up finding one in u

41:05the Fukquay ETJ.

41:08Um and if not all of you know what an

41:11archive is. It's basically just a museum

41:13of trees. Um and we get a discounted

41:16rate from nurseries and we plant as many

41:19trees as we can there. We've had

41:23a few hundred volunteers come through in

41:24the eight months or so since it's been

41:26in in force. Um but we're also now

41:30working with other communities. Um so we

41:33reached out to um Smith Farm through

41:35help of Nora. We got some contacts

41:37there. Um we have a connection with um

41:40Salem Village and we're going to be

41:42planting some trees there. And it just

41:45reminds me that if you just get great

41:48people together that are caring and

41:49passionate,

41:52you could do really magical things.

41:55And I know you guys do that all the time

41:57here, but I know we feel we all feel

41:59like we could do more. And so I really

42:02want to partner with this group in my um

42:06connection with Trees for the Triangle.

42:08We're already working together, but

42:09there's so much more to be done. So, I

42:12look forward to more conversations with

42:14all of you. Um, I think I'm going to

42:16come back here and do a formal

42:18presentation about what we're all doing

42:20at Trees for the Triangle. And, um, I'm

42:22excited. I'm I'm frustrated, but I'm

42:24also excited. So, thank you very much.

42:27Have a good night.

42:27>> Thank you. Appreciate that.

42:32>> Terry

42:41I'm sorry, if you could state your name

42:43and address, please.

42:44>> I'm Terry Eley. I live at 225 Old Grove

42:47Lane, and I bought my house last

42:50December. I picked it because the air

42:53quality was fantastic, the trees were

42:56beautiful, and there was wildlife, and

42:59it was this unique little corner of

43:01Apex. and they knew that Apex really

43:04valued the quality of life of its

43:06residents above development unlike some

43:09of the other towns in North Carolina. So

43:12please, I am here to ask you to protect

43:16the property, protect the way of life,

43:19and maintain the standard of living in

43:21our community. Thank you.

43:24>> Thank you, Mr.

43:30Bob Owen. I believe You already went,

43:32Mr. Owen. Um, Stephen Edward Many.

43:41Mr. Man, if you could state your name

43:42and your address for Steve Edwards. I

43:44live at 101 Hay Bar and Court. I'm the

43:47president of the Seagrove Farm Town Home

43:49Association and on the board of the

43:51Seagrove Farm Master Homeowners

43:54Association.

43:55And I thank you for time to speak on

43:57this.

43:59Uh my concerns have to do with density

44:02and canopy. As president of the HOA, I

44:04get the letters from your town. We don't

44:06have enough trees in our front yards.

44:08And so I actually one of the few

44:10residents probably read most of the 600

44:13pages in the planning document that

44:14specifies canopy. And I know it was

44:17really it was important enough to put

44:18that much paper into the document.

44:21And uh what really startled me when I

44:24showed up at the first hearing was the

44:26map that the gentleman just presented to

44:28you. It's all parking lot and building.

44:31I think there's maybe eight or 10 trees

44:32in the whole thing. And so as an

44:34environmental group,

44:36that probably should get some bells

44:39going on in your head.

44:42I just did a quick survey of the

44:44apartment communities near the proposed

44:47project. C Cambridge Village, the

44:50Broadstone, the two Broadstone

44:51communities, the two Meridian

44:53communities, the reserve at Mills Chase,

44:55the Reed Creek Crossing, they according

44:58to Wake County tax records represent

45:011420 units situated on 98 acres and

45:04their density averages out to 14 units

45:07per acre.

45:09The project before us is 32

45:14Well, what is it? 232 by it's 34 units

45:18per acre. It's just a a gigantic jump in

45:22density squeezing a oversized project

45:25into an undersized lot. And so I also

45:27share all the concerns that have already

45:29been presented.

45:31The uh some of you might know me because

45:34for the last 30 years I've been able to

45:36referee

45:38basketball and volleyball at the youth

45:40and adult league levels in Apex. And so

45:42I've been called all sorts of names by

45:45Apex residents depending on quality of

45:48my call. But one of the rules they train

45:50us as referees is what you permit you

45:53promote.

45:55And there's nothing worse than being the

45:58referee that comes in the gym after two

46:00folks just

46:02didn't call anything the previous week.

46:05And now we're just enforcing the rules.

46:07And everybody's going, "Well, the last

46:08official didn't do it."

46:11I know you aren't required to look at

46:12this project,

46:14but if it comes out of the gate as

46:16planned and now the Calvary Calvary

46:19Chapel parcels on the table in play,

46:25there's nothing the town can do to say

46:27you can't do the same thing here. You

46:29can't make the same you can make the

46:30same mistakes because we let this group

46:33do it. And so setting that precedent,

46:36what you permit you'll promote. So, I

46:39think it is worth your time to take a

46:40closer look.

46:43Thank you very much.

46:44>> Thank you, Mr.

46:48>> [applause]

46:51>> Laura Hughes,

46:56>> Christa Torbeck,

47:02>> Mary Edwards,

47:07>> Barbara Raymond.

47:10>> I think that concludes the list. Um,

47:14wanted to say thank you to all the Apex

47:16residents for making your way over here

47:18and speaking to the board. Um, want to

47:22just let you know that um, I know some

47:24of you asked the board if they had

47:26questions about uh, your your statement.

47:29Um, it is my understanding that the

47:30board cannot uh, speak back to you,

47:33>> right? Um, I just want to let you know

47:36that that's not um a lack of caring or

47:39uh for a lack of caring or um you know,

47:42you know that we're not going to do

47:44anything about the your your concerns.

47:47Okay. But uh I do thank you for making

47:49your way over here. I appreciate that.

47:54[applause]

47:55>> Are we allowed to ask staff questions

47:57about what they've presented?

48:00>> That's a good question.

48:05Okay. So, my question is, um, because I

48:09wasn't here in 2024 when the original,

48:12uh, development came through, um, what

48:16was the size of that development

48:18compared to the 4.42 acres that they

48:21have, I guess, subdivided out in order

48:23to pursue it.

48:24>> I I can speak to that. Um, it's the same

48:27properties that was included in the last

48:29resoning, which was approved. The

48:31proposal that that's being discussed

48:33today was the application was just

48:35submitted this month. Um and so it's

48:38under review um right now going through

48:41its very first review by by staff.

48:44>> Okay. So I guess I'm unclear why it came

48:46in front of the board originally and why

48:48it's not now.

48:49>> That when it came through the resoning

48:52was actually submitted a very long time

48:54before it actually got approved. Um it

48:56was submitted originally in 2022 and at

48:58that time the exemp size exemption for

49:02resonings was 1 acre or less. I can't

49:05remember the exact year when the

49:07ordinance was amended but it was that

49:09was that threshold was changed to 10

49:11acres.

49:13>> You're welcome.

49:17>> Any additional questions?

49:21>> I'd like to move on to council member

49:23comments.

49:25Great. Uh, good evening everybody. Uh,

49:28welcome back from from summer. I hope

49:30you had a wonderful time. Um, I don't

49:33think we've seen each other since, uh,

49:35since June, right? And that was a

49:37meeting that was pretty short because we

49:38couldn't make quorum. So, it's been a

49:39really long time since we sat down here

49:40and had a meeting. So, it's good to see

49:42you all again. And, um, so my notes here

49:45from the last couple meetings, obviously

49:47town council and the rest of the town,

49:49uh, not a ton happened in in July. Um

49:52before we left though, uh obviously I

49:54wanted to mention we did make some

49:56appointments to the board. Um to our new

49:58members, uh welcome here. And that was a

50:00a little bit of a discussion because um

50:02the mayor wanted to defer all the

50:04appointments. I was like, wait a second,

50:05we're down a ton of people on EAB. So at

50:07least let's make the EAB appointments

50:09and uh we all agreed to do that. So we

50:11still have some pending ones to come. So

50:13uh for the new members, uh welcome. Uh I

50:15went through the meetings and uh I you

50:18know one of the things that I do here is

50:19is tell you what happened with the

50:21resonings. Uh I only found two that were

50:23kind of note since we last met. I think

50:26unless I'm I'm forgetting any I know

50:27that we had the budget in early June.

50:29And so there's just the last meeting in

50:30June, the council's first meeting in

50:33August and uh we had a Vidia resoning. I

50:37I don't know if you guys saw this one

50:39because it was

50:41uh it was mostly due to conditions

50:43related to the college that's coming. So

50:46they requested um Bidia had a a specific

50:50vision for how it would be laid out and

50:51that didn't quite work for Wake Tech who

50:53had you know was building a different

50:55type of product and they had so we

50:57modified some conditions on there that

50:58passed unanimously and I think back in

51:00June we had an amendment uh for Horton's

51:04PUD which is a pretty big deal over in

51:06the the eastern part of town which again

51:09I'm not sure what came to you guys or

51:10not but it involved I think

51:11transportation amendments that we

51:13approved. Uh so that's kind of all

51:15that's happened at the council level. Uh

51:18the other thing that I want to talk

51:19about is uh we did approve and I

51:22remember telling you guys about this a

51:24UDO amendment to have resonings come

51:28back to the board for a recommendation.

51:31A little bit of back and forth there. It

51:33took a couple months that ultimately was

51:34approved by council in May. Um and we

51:37had some discussion about it. I wanted

51:39to let you know that um after talking to

51:42my colleagues and listening to public

51:43comment, I've agreed to voluntarily kind

51:46of recuse myself from those discussions

51:48because there was a thought that it's

51:51coming back to council and it was weird

51:52to have me influence what you guys might

51:55say and I'm fine with that because I I

51:57do want to hear what your opinions are.

51:58I don't necessarily want to be involved

52:00in what you're recommending for it. Uh

52:03so uh that'll kind of be the policy

52:04going forward is I won't be involved in

52:06any uh resoning cases. Days like today I

52:09might just leave if all that's left is

52:10resonings on the on the agenda. Um other

52:13days there may be other business

52:14afterwards. I'll just kind of be quiet

52:16for those meetings. Uh and that was

52:17something that I I think is is a good

52:19policy um you know to to let you guys do

52:23your work on those reszonings as we

52:25discussed. So uh that's all I had notes

52:28for. So, I'm happy uh happy to be back

52:30and uh welcome again and I'm happy to

52:32answer any of your questions if you have

52:33any about any of that stuff or or

52:36anything else or

52:38Star Wars trivia or whatever.

52:41>> Uh Terry, I have a question. When can we

52:43expect the youth uh member?

52:45>> The youth member?

52:46>> Yeah,

52:47>> hopefully at the next meeting.

52:48>> Yeah.

52:49>> Yeah. Yeah, the youth member. Um, so

52:53yeah, we we have a bunch of appointments

52:54on next Tuesday, so [clears throat]

52:56we'll hopefully we'll we'll fill out the

52:58rest of our appointments at that point.

53:02>> Daniel, can I have one question on this

53:04one? Um

53:11um the one we talked about the center

53:13street development the density of the

53:16apartments

53:18went from seven units per acre to 27. Is

53:22that correct?

53:25>> Sure.

53:26>> The the reasonzoning that is proposed is

53:28is about that acreage. I don't have the

53:30application in front of me. Um

53:34but again that reasonzoning will not be

53:36coming before this board because it's

53:38less than 10 acres.

53:40So staff has heard all the concerns from

53:42the community. I've taken some notes and

53:45um we will pass along those concerns to

53:47the to the applicant.

53:49>> Thank you.

53:51>> Thank you very much. Um like to move on

53:54to staff announcements.

53:57Laura

54:04I don't think I have a mic at my desk,

54:06so I'll come down here. Don't want to

54:08breathe all over Bruce and Amanda

54:10sharing theirs. So, lots of

54:12announcements because it's been a while

54:14since we've last met. Um, so first

54:16things first, you'll notice in front of

54:18you now we have laptops. So, hopefully

54:20that will help as we have resoning cases

54:23um and presenters. We don't have to try

54:25to strain to look at these screens

54:27anymore. Um everything that the

54:30applicants provided to us should be

54:32loaded on the computers. Um tonight I

54:35know there's two PDFs, so you'll have to

54:37open Adobe for that. And then the second

54:39case is a PowerPoint. So all of those

54:42should already be open. You'll just have

54:43to navigate and find those. But let me

54:45know if you have any issues. I can help

54:47you pull them up. Um as far as

54:50environmental programs wise, it's been a

54:52busy summer. So, just to recap some past

54:55events, um our invasive removal events

54:57were still going strong with Swanik, our

55:00nonprofit group. Um we had five removal

55:03work days in July, so that was huge. We

55:06removed about 95 pounds of invasive

55:08plant material. Um that was between Apex

55:11Community Park and Kelly Road Park. Um

55:14the Wisteria really added to that. It's

55:16very heavy, but those were great events.

55:18Um well attended. And then another very

55:21well- attended event was our afternoon

55:23in the garden/moth night event. Um that

55:27was rescheduled. It was supposed to

55:28happen in June, but we moved it to July

55:3124th, which was when our moth night

55:33event was originally scheduled. So we

55:35ended up combining them both. And we had

55:37about probably over 170 people show up.

55:41Um that was the last count that we had,

55:43but it was a huge turnout. We ended up

55:45rescheduling it because of weather. And

55:47actually the weather was worse than the

55:50original date we picked, but that didn't

55:52matter. So um we had a bunch of people

55:54that came out. Our chair and vice chair

55:56attended and helped tabled. So thank you

55:58guys for that. Um and special thanks to

56:00Daniel because he brought his bat

56:02recording device. So as we were looking

56:04for moss at night, we could ID the bats

56:07that we saw swooping over our heads. So

56:09that was super neat. Um and then Romesh

56:12also attended. So it was glad to meet

56:14you there. Um it was a great event. So,

56:16we were super happy with the turnout um

56:18and excited to do more events like that.

56:22So, now I'm going to talk to you about

56:24some more upcoming events. Actually,

56:26tomorrow we have an event out at the

56:29nature park. It's at the Pollinator

56:31Garden. So, the Seymour Athletic side of

56:33the park, not the amphitheater side. Um

56:36it's the Great Southeast Pollinator

56:38Census. So the whole of the southeast um

56:42now North Carolina to Mississippi is

56:44participating in this program. It's a

56:47community science project. It takes 15

56:50minutes. Um really all you do is you

56:52pick a plant and you're tally marking

56:55each pollinator that you see land on the

56:57plant. Um so it's super simple, super

57:00easy. It's a drop in event tomorrow. So

57:02it's going to be from 11 to 3. You can

57:04come and stay 15 minutes and do one

57:07count. you can stay an hour and do a

57:08couple counts. Um, it's really up to

57:10you, but that'll be a neat event. Um,

57:13and there's a volunteer sign up link on

57:15our volunteer portal on the page. You

57:18don't have to sign up, but it just helps

57:20us know how many people to expect. Um,

57:22but feel free residents to just show up.

57:25And then next week on the 26th,

57:28we have a Creek Critter Discovery event

57:31that we're doing with Haw River

57:32Assembly. And actually Sandre who was on

57:35the board um she left to take this

57:38position and it's great because now we

57:40get to work with her in another

57:41capacity. So she's actually leading the

57:43event. Um again that's going to be at

57:45the nature park. That's Wednesday the

57:4726th. It's from 6:00 to 7:00 that

57:49evening. Um and that's going to be

57:52really like a hands-on exploration of

57:55little creek critters, macro

57:56invertebrates um that live in the water

57:58around the nature park. So we're going

58:01to see what we can find. and we've got

58:02little nets um for people to scoop out

58:04our critters. Um but that'll just be a

58:07cool evening outside to kind of see what

58:09little guys we've got in our streams.

58:12And then

58:13>> which stream is that we're looking

58:16>> which it's at the nature park that

58:18>> Yes. And that is the amphitheater side.

58:21So it's two different two sides of the

58:23park that will be at the amphitheater to

58:26meet. Um and again there is a

58:28registration like a volunteer link you

58:30can use uh to sign up on the volunteer

58:33portal

58:34>> 6 to 7.

58:36>> Yeah.

58:37>> My daughter has asked for her birthday

58:38to be the creek. So

58:40>> Oh be a stepping stone to that.

58:42>> That would be great. Yeah.

58:45Um and all of these are free by the way.

58:47No no no payment needed. So that's

58:49Wednesday. And then Thursday next week

58:52we've got three events in a row.

58:53Thursday is our first event in the

58:55Triangle Environmental Symposium. So, um

58:58we heard Dean mention that earlier in a

59:00public comment. That's our collaboration

59:03with Trees for the Triangle. Um they've

59:05hosted it in the past in Kerry and so

59:08now it's hosted here in Apex this year.

59:10It's going to be at the Halley Center

59:12downtown. Um doors open at 6:30.

59:15programs start at 7 and for the next

59:18four Thursdays in a row, starting next

59:20Thursday, the 27th of August, September

59:233rd, September 10th, and September 17th,

59:26we're going to be doing basically just

59:28an environmental lecture series. So,

59:30we'll have guest speakers come in. Um,

59:32I'll give you the lineup now. So, next

59:35week, the 27th, it's our rooted

59:37injustice, growing healthy communities

59:39panel. So, it's a panel discussion. Um

59:42we're asked um these local esteemed

59:45speakers in the environmental field to

59:48come and be on our panel. Um they're

59:50based in the triangle and they're going

59:52to be talking about the work that they

59:54do and how that intersects with

59:55environmental justice. And for that

59:58event, um the mayor will be there to do

1:00:00some opening remarks and it's going to

1:00:02be moderated actually by Mr. Mafy here

1:00:05and then one of Trees for the Triangle's

1:00:07board members. So that'll be a nice

1:00:10event to kick off the the next couple

1:00:12weeks. September 3rd, so the following

1:00:15week, that's our from Wasteland to

1:00:17Wonder event. Um, and that's featuring

1:00:19Basil Kimu, who is an author of From

1:00:22Wasteland to Wonder, but also the

1:00:24co-founder of Leaf and Limb and Project

1:00:26Pandu or Pando, which is uh based here

1:00:29in the Triangle. September 10th, the

1:00:32following is Forest Around the World.

1:00:34So, we've got three guest speakers um in

1:00:37the, you know, urban forestry field

1:00:39coming to talk about that. And then

1:00:41September 17th is Gardening for the

1:00:44Planet. It's a documentary. So, we're

1:00:46going to be doing the documentary

1:00:47screening that night. Um and then the

1:00:49director will be there, Joanne

1:00:50Hersfield, to do a Q&A at the end. So,

1:00:54all of these are ticketed, but they're

1:00:56only $5 each, and the proceeds are going

1:00:58to Trees for the Triangle. There's links

1:01:01on our website on the town page. Um, if

1:01:04you just Google uh Triangle

1:01:06Environmental Symposium Apex, it should

1:01:09pop up. It should be the first thing on

1:01:11a a Google search. Um, and the links for

1:01:14all the tickets are there online.

1:01:16>> Does that last one conflict with It does

1:01:19>> it. Yes, it is. It is an EAB night

1:01:21unfortunately.

1:01:22>> Yep.

1:01:23>> Okay.

1:01:24>> And that was something we can get to

1:01:26later. Um, but there will be we'll be

1:01:30tableabling at this event as well. So, I

1:01:32know that we talked about it a long time

1:01:33ago, but if the EAB wants to be present

1:01:36at at least the first three meetings, um

1:01:38there's a table there that we can talk

1:01:40about later, but we could table if

1:01:43you're interested.

1:01:45And then finally, I said there was three

1:01:46events. So, that's Wednesday, Thursday,

1:01:49Friday, next week is another invasive

1:01:51removal workday and that'll be at Kelly

1:01:53Road Park and that's from 5 to 6:30. Um

1:01:57because now the Swanic, the nonprofit

1:01:59students are back in school. So, got to

1:02:01do it after school now. But a big week

1:02:04next week. Lots of events happening. So,

1:02:07>> what's the date on the last one?

1:02:08>> Uh the 28th. Yep.

1:02:14And that's all I had. But

1:02:17lots lots of good stuff in the works.

1:02:20>> Are you guys doing anything to treat the

1:02:21knotweed?

1:02:23>> We haven't started on that yet. Mainly

1:02:25we've been um targeting stilt grass and

1:02:28then the wisteria at Kelly Road is just

1:02:31out of this world. So we've really been

1:02:33focusing on that, but no, we should.

1:02:37>> Nora, aside from tableabling, possibly

1:02:39tableabling for EAB members, um how else

1:02:42can we support the environmental

1:02:44symposium?

1:02:45>> Um honestly, just buy tickets and attend

1:02:47too. If you don't want to table with us

1:02:49earlier, show up and enjoy. Um, I

1:02:53attended last year in Kerry all four or

1:02:55four nights in a row or weeks and it was

1:02:58awesome. Um, it was great. We have one

1:03:00speaker that is coming back that I saw

1:03:03last year. So, I'm super excited for

1:03:04her. Um, but I mean, yeah, just attend,

1:03:08tell your friends, share the word. That

1:03:10would be great.

1:03:12>> This is something that happens regally

1:03:14like every year or

1:03:15>> Well, previously it I think it had only

1:03:18been in Kerry. So, I attended and I just

1:03:22talked to Dave, the executive director

1:03:24afterwards of Treats for the Triangle

1:03:26and said like, "This would be great to

1:03:28host an Apex if you guys ever wanted to

1:03:30move." So, I didn't realize I don't know

1:03:32if I like stole it from Carrie. Sorry,

1:03:34Carrie. But, um, I think now the

1:03:36president will be sent or said that it

1:03:39will kind of move around between

1:03:41municipalities, but we're happy to have

1:03:43it this year.

1:03:43>> Raising awareness for residents and

1:03:47>> Yep. raising awareness. Um, it's also

1:03:50partly just a fundraiser for Trees for

1:03:52the Triangle, but especially with our

1:03:54first event with a lot of our local

1:03:56speakers raising awareness of

1:03:58environmental issues here in the

1:03:59triangle.

1:04:03>> Yeah.

1:04:03>> Uh, Nora, I have question for you. Um

1:04:06since you are a resident um

1:04:09person who signs up signs the town of

1:04:11Apex for community re environmental

1:04:15related stuff um I you know I've been

1:04:17thinking about other things um and I

1:04:20think I mentioned them in the past but

1:04:21um you know stuff to make Apex a little

1:04:24bit more wildlife friendly um our

1:04:26community more wildlife friendly and um

1:04:28you know a beacon of environmental

1:04:30stewardship of of sorts. Um there are

1:04:33other community projects that I've been

1:04:35looking into like Bird City USA,

1:04:38>> um which helps migratory birds, um you

1:04:40know, there's a couple things that we

1:04:42would ask residents like turn off lights

1:04:44during certain times of the year. Uh

1:04:47certain times of the day, uh snapshot

1:04:50snapshot USA, which keeps track uh it

1:04:53tracks like mammal activity. um

1:04:57uh Monarch City, USA, but I think the

1:05:00town of Apex has something similar to

1:05:02that, right?

1:05:02>> Yeah, we we have the mayor's monarch

1:05:04pledge, right?

1:05:05>> Yep. Um, and then, um, I've been looking

1:05:09into, uh, making Apex

1:05:17Apex parks, maybe buildings, uh, areas

1:05:21near our our buildings, uh, become

1:05:24wildlife certified, like um

1:05:27>> um,

1:05:28>> community wildlife habitat like

1:05:30certified through the National Wildlife

1:05:32Federation. um you know just you you

1:05:34have to hit some check boxes as far as

1:05:36like water and food for animals and

1:05:39>> shelter shelter. Yeah, you know about

1:05:41that.

1:05:41>> Um and then um

1:05:44>> you know uh in line with Bird City USA,

1:05:46you know there's stuff like dark sky

1:05:48communities um as well as Lights Out NC

1:05:52North Carolina which is done through the

1:05:54Ottabon Society. Um and I have to tell

1:05:57you um looking into that uh some of our

1:05:59neighbors are involved in that. um

1:06:02Raleigh, Greensboro, Durham, Chapel

1:06:05Hill, Kerry. Um a little bit further

1:06:08away, Win Winston Salem, Charlotte, and

1:06:10Asheville. Um [clears throat] so I would

1:06:12I would love for Apex to be a little bit

1:06:14more um involved in those things.

1:06:17Well, and it's funny that you mentioned

1:06:19that because I think actually something

1:06:20that is um one of my goals for the next

1:06:24year, even townwide beyond just

1:06:26environmental, but um I think I'm being

1:06:28asked to help track all the town

1:06:30designations. Um so, not only to figure

1:06:33out, you know, what are we already

1:06:35designated as, but then to look into new

1:06:36ones. So, yeah, this is great. I'll

1:06:39definitely be looking into all those.

1:06:40>> Yeah. And I know we've done plantings

1:06:42here but in town hall. So I mean yeah we

1:06:45can plant natives. I'm sure you have.

1:06:48>> Let me add to that um because you know I

1:06:51think one of the things that will be a

1:06:52part of our work session is looking at

1:06:54zoning conditions

1:06:55>> um in our packet of recommendations and

1:06:59I think to the extent that we can build

1:07:02into some of those conditions things

1:07:04that will support those designations it

1:07:06will make everybody's life a lot easier

1:07:08if we're going to pursue these. So, I

1:07:10think that's something that we might

1:07:12consider is what types of things support

1:07:14the designations that we already have or

1:07:16designations that we want.

1:07:19>> For sure. Yeah.

1:07:20>> And I'd say another thing to keep in

1:07:21mind is a lot of these designations um I

1:07:24mean there's work associated with them,

1:07:27right? A lot of that might fall to this

1:07:29board to either do it or or drive it.

1:07:31And we kind of have this concept, you

1:07:34know, this past year of subcommittees

1:07:35doing stuff was sort of the idea. Um so

1:07:38with that model I mean you can keep that

1:07:39going. I would also point out like the

1:07:42size of your board in terms of work to

1:07:44be done. Um like we can change that you

1:07:47can ask to change that. If you find

1:07:48ourselves in a place where we need more

1:07:50people you know um we can make the board

1:07:52bigger to add more members of the

1:07:55subcommittee that could work on stuff.

1:07:57Um that's really uh you know up to you

1:08:00guys to sort of drive that suggest that

1:08:02you can suggest sort of changes. And I

1:08:04bring that up because also another

1:08:05thought that we had is um you can

1:08:07imagine a model where this board meets

1:08:09less frequently or like maybe just for

1:08:11the zoning cases that we have now and

1:08:13but the subcommittees meet more

1:08:15frequently to deal with whether you're

1:08:17the B subcommittee or or the you know

1:08:19wildlife whatever it happens to be uh to

1:08:21drive compliance with that thing. So

1:08:22there's a lot of different ways you can

1:08:24work and I just um want to throw out

1:08:26there that there's you guys have a lot

1:08:27of discretion. You're really empowered

1:08:29to sort of drive this sort of stuff and

1:08:31either

1:08:34To the extent you can configure yourself

1:08:35to do it, you can do it. To the extent

1:08:37you want to be configured differently,

1:08:38you can just ask, you know, and and work

1:08:40with staff to suggest stuff. If

1:08:42something needs money, then you would,

1:08:44you know, I don't know, pass a

1:08:46resolution or something and town council

1:08:47would consider it for part of the

1:08:49budget. There's lots of stuff you could

1:08:50do uh to to drive this stuff. And and I

1:08:52I definitely like the idea of you guys

1:08:55being active and and going for this

1:08:58these kind of things. So,

1:09:00>> and I wonder if we can bundle some of

1:09:01that stuff. um create a subcommittee

1:09:04where we have we're working on some of

1:09:07these designations um kind of like all

1:09:10in one.

1:09:11>> Yeah, I think where there's overlap that

1:09:13makes sense, you know. Um and that's

1:09:15kind of the reason that we dissolved the

1:09:17tree committee and the B committee and

1:09:19put it all here because there was some

1:09:21overlap in areas and you know we thought

1:09:24that this board could be sort of the

1:09:26place where it's all done. Um so whether

1:09:31we'll back to the tree committee um

1:09:34issue is one example. I know that being

1:09:36a tree city requires you to have some

1:09:38board responsible for compliance and and

1:09:41sorts of ordinances and you have to

1:09:43designate someone to do it. Uh so we

1:09:45would designate the subcommittee to do

1:09:46it but it could easily be you guys like

1:09:48you guys can can figure out where where

1:09:50it makes sense and it depends maybe in

1:09:52your membership too and who has interest

1:09:53where and you know how much stuff you're

1:09:56doing. Any

1:10:02other questions or comments?

1:10:05Um, I'd like to move on to resoning

1:10:08cases.

1:10:10Apologize.

1:10:13>> Be very quick. No problem. Just want to

1:10:14give you guys an update.

1:10:29So, uh, just give you guys a quick

1:10:30update on something, uh, Mayor Promafy

1:10:32already spoke about. We did pass a new

1:10:34ordinance that would give you guys the

1:10:36abilities to review resoning projects

1:10:38and vote on whether or not you believe

1:10:40that they are meeting the the

1:10:41recommendations for the legislative

1:10:43considerations. Number five, whether

1:10:45design minimizes environmental impact.

1:10:47So, that has been included. And going

1:10:50forward, what we will have a new process

1:10:52for you. Um, I'm just going to show you

1:10:54what the schedule looks like so you have

1:10:55the same understanding of what the

1:10:58applicants are going to be told from now

1:10:59on moving forward.

1:11:06Yeah, it'll load eventually, but

1:11:07essentially what'll happen is they'll

1:11:09come before you like they do now.

1:11:10They'll give a presentation, have their

1:11:12filled out listed of suggested zoning

1:11:13conditions that they're willing to offer

1:11:14as part of their resoning. Um during

1:11:16that time you would now be providing a

1:11:19recommendation to the planning board and

1:11:21town council as that moves forward.

1:11:23During the first meeting they can ask

1:11:25they can ask for a delay in order to

1:11:27consider the considerations that maybe

1:11:28the board presents to them at that time.

1:11:30And then if that's the case they take

1:11:32the delay they will have a second

1:11:33meeting before you to finally state what

1:11:36conditions they're willing to offer to

1:11:38the board. And then there'll be a vote

1:11:39on the recommendation at that time.

1:11:41they'll have to come before you for that

1:11:43vote um before they can be scheduled for

1:11:45any public hearings with the planning

1:11:46board or the town council moving

1:11:48forward. Now, if they come before you

1:11:50the first time and you guys agree on all

1:11:52the conditions, they don't have to have

1:11:54a second neighborhood meet a second a

1:11:56second meeting in front of you. We'll be

1:11:57able to move forward from there. So,

1:11:59that's the process we'll be moving

1:12:00towards with that. Just want to let you

1:12:03know. And then we have

1:12:16So, under our applications now in our

1:12:17fees and under our schedules for the

1:12:20reasonzonings, we have a big table. I

1:12:21don't know if any of you have ever have

1:12:22seen this or been curious kind of what

1:12:24this looks like as a timeline that the

1:12:25applicants see. Um, so now we have a new

1:12:28section, new column that shows when

1:12:31their second neighborhood meeting was

1:12:32most likely to occur for them after

1:12:34their first one. So, we have that listed

1:12:35now. And we also have notes that kind of

1:12:37speak to what they'll be required to

1:12:39show that they're, you know, that

1:12:40they're they're meeting that condition

1:12:41of number five and minimizing

1:12:43environmental impact as part of their

1:12:44their conditioning zoning as well. And

1:12:46with that, we will be providing a new

1:12:48report.

1:12:52Uh that did not get loaded on here. I

1:12:54apologize. We'll get that to you as a

1:12:56copy emailed to you. It was supposed to

1:12:57be on this computer, but essentially

1:12:59it'll be report that we we already have

1:13:01a template of that we use for the

1:13:02planning board for the recommendation to

1:13:04town council will have the list. It'll

1:13:05list your vote decisions and things like

1:13:07that on there. There will also be a new

1:13:09form for dissenting members for each

1:13:10vote. And in that, each member who

1:13:12decides to vote against a recommendation

1:13:15for that will have to fill out that

1:13:16application and state the reasonings why

1:13:18they voted against it. Um, right now

1:13:20we're working on having it be a PDF that

1:13:22you can type into. If it works out

1:13:24easier though, we may just do a paper

1:13:26copy if that's more comfortable for

1:13:28y'all to write on and then we can scan

1:13:29that and use that. The only issue is

1:13:32should there be a vote and you do have a

1:13:33dissenting member at that time, we'll

1:13:35have to what we need to do is we'll have

1:13:37to keep it on your laptop, come with a

1:13:38USB drive, download the USB drive and

1:13:41take it off because these laptops are

1:13:43also used by other members and so we

1:13:44have to make sure that we're keeping

1:13:45track of that. So, we'll go over that

1:13:47again as we get through that process and

1:13:48come up to it, but just let you guys

1:13:50know that the process has changed a

1:13:52little bit, but essentially people are

1:13:53still going to come before you with

1:13:54their proposed conditions and there just

1:13:56may be a second meeting if we're not

1:13:57able to come to a conclusion of the

1:13:59first one. So,

1:14:03>> oh, it's on there. It's not on mine

1:14:06>> Yeah. So, you might have It should be a

1:14:08PDF, I believe. It should be on there.

1:14:09There's two forms. Perfect. Yeah, it

1:14:10just wasn't on my

1:14:13>> and I will let y'all move on.

1:14:18Thank you, Bruce. All right. Uh, moving

1:14:20on to the resoning uh case reviews.

1:14:24We have um first one reszoning case

1:14:27number 26

1:14:30CZ09

1:14:32Prince PDU PU

1:14:36>> I need to recuse myself from this

1:14:38project. I don't know when the time for

1:14:40me to do that is but I have a conflict

1:14:42of interest.

1:14:45>> This would be the time now to do that.

1:14:47So you would there need to be a motion

1:14:48and a board to recuse her. Motion and a

1:14:51second to recuse her. Do I have a motion

1:14:53to recuse?

1:14:55>> I move.

1:14:56>> Second.

1:14:57>> Second.

1:14:58>> All in favor?

1:15:09>> And then I loaded your other conditions

1:15:12form too. So it should be

1:15:14>> okay. Great.

1:15:16Um, good evening members of the

1:15:18environmental advisory board. My name is

1:15:20Brendy Vega. I am um with Withers

1:15:24Revanel representing the Prince Farms uh

1:15:28plan unit development um application.

1:15:32And

1:15:34um I think you have the application

1:15:36package in your agendas. Um so I'll I'll

1:15:42just tell you a little bit about it. Um

1:15:44this is an owner resoning effort. So,

1:15:47this is the Prince family requesting

1:15:49this um zoning

1:15:53change and um they are

1:15:57they are um they there's no developer or

1:16:01home builder selected.

1:16:03So, we don't have a home builder or

1:16:05developer here um with us. We do have

1:16:09the representing member from the Prince

1:16:12family here who can answer any

1:16:14questions. Um

1:16:17so

1:16:19with that um this is currently an active

1:16:22farm um located surrounded um completely

1:16:27by Salem Village. It will be u an infill

1:16:31site. Uh the family did not sell to the

1:16:35developer of Salem Village um at the

1:16:38time that they were developing. Um so

1:16:40they have watched the Salem village go

1:16:44up around them and um the family um

1:16:51you know is is uh come together to

1:16:54prepare this resoning so they can

1:16:56maximize their value when it's time to

1:16:59sell.

1:17:01So this is currently in the town of Apex

1:17:04EJ.

1:17:06Um, we are working with town staff to

1:17:08propose additional infrastructure to a

1:17:11town parcel

1:17:13um to the east and uh for a commitment

1:17:18to affordable housing. Um, so uh right

1:17:23now you're looking at this site north

1:17:25south and I'm going to flip it uh

1:17:28because it doesn't fit on the plans.

1:17:30North south. So

1:17:33um north is on the left side now and

1:17:38south is on the right. Um so our

1:17:42proposal is

1:17:45um

1:17:47again keeping it pretty vague because

1:17:51the family doesn't know who they will be

1:17:55selling to. Um but have proposed

1:17:59conditions um that the single family

1:18:04homes along

1:18:06um the western side of the property uh

1:18:11which is [clears throat] bottom on this

1:18:12page

1:18:14will be um approximately the same size

1:18:18as those that back up to them.

1:18:22and um that

1:18:26uh the

1:18:28[clears throat] sorry that the RCA um is

1:18:31going to be over here on the east side.

1:18:35Um we have increased the buffers by 5T

1:18:40on the perimeter

1:18:42and uh we have met with the neighbors.

1:18:46They are obviously sad to see the farm

1:18:49go. has become part of the neighborhood.

1:18:52Um,

1:18:54but we are working with them also on

1:18:56some of their requests.

1:18:59So, um,

1:19:02I'll see the ponds on the site um, have

1:19:07the family has applied for pond draining

1:19:09permits and the north pond has [cough]

1:19:13already been drained. I'm not sure about

1:19:16the status of the south pond.

1:19:19They've both been drained

1:19:23and

1:19:27um so these stream delineations may

1:19:30change um since they both have been

1:19:33drained.

1:19:35>> I'm sorry. What do they what are the

1:19:37streams called now? Are they

1:19:39>> perennial or intermittent as you have

1:19:41them marked?

1:19:48So you're expecting them to go down to

1:19:50intermittent [clears throat]

1:19:59>> I don't think

1:20:01>> the classification impacts the buffer

1:20:02distance.

1:20:05>> Yeah.

1:20:05>> Right now it's buffered around.

1:20:09>> Oh, so you just you're talking about the

1:20:11pond buffer. I'm talking about the

1:20:12stream channels then.

1:20:15>> Okay.

1:20:20>> Yeah. Are you're talking about in this

1:20:22area? Yeah, those

1:20:25>> that looks like um 100 foot buffer

1:20:3050 foot.

1:20:33>> Let me see.

1:20:37It's a 50 foot stream buffer. So, so

1:20:40it's an intermittent

1:20:41>> intermittent.

1:20:49Okay. And

1:20:52so we did do a rendering for the

1:20:56neighborhood meeting. We do not know

1:20:58what this is going to look like.

1:21:00Obviously, the a developer may buy it

1:21:04and have a different vision. Um but um

1:21:08what we do know is that we have

1:21:11committed to um single family um along

1:21:18along the western edge [clears throat]

1:21:22and um if you look back at the PD plan

1:21:28um this is single family in this area

1:21:33and then this area can either town home

1:21:36or single family. Um and that's to keep

1:21:41the

1:21:42town homes away from the existing

1:21:44residents. So um we did have a request

1:21:49by one of the

1:21:52uh neighbors um I think he's the HOA

1:21:55president um to plant a row of I don't

1:21:59know if he said a row necessarily but

1:22:02giant green arborite. And so I don't

1:22:06think those are native species. Um,

1:22:10and they really want the screening. So

1:22:14we haven't committed to that yet.

1:22:17[clears throat]

1:22:18But it I'll go back to the aerial. You

1:22:21can't really see it here, but there is a

1:22:23road that um comes in at their entrance

1:22:28and it's a driveway comes down. So

1:22:33there's not much buffer there. Now this

1:22:37might be one of the sites that actually

1:22:39plants more trees than removes trees. Um

1:22:43so

1:22:46so um

1:22:48be happy to answer any questions and um

1:22:52go through the conditions if you'd like.

1:22:57>> Got a question on on access to the

1:22:59property.

1:23:00>> Yes. Um

1:23:02>> there seems to be uh a lot of different

1:23:05options you could you could have. Uh

1:23:08>> one would be the James Street Extension.

1:23:11>> I assume that is probably preferred.

1:23:14>> That is our preference, but it's owned

1:23:16by the Salem Village HOA. And so, um,

1:23:20they seem to be somewhat on board with

1:23:24the sale of that, but we don't know if

1:23:26they need 80% of their residents to sign

1:23:29off, which might be near impossible. Uh,

1:23:33we have not looked into how that would

1:23:35work. So, uh, we can't expect that

1:23:38council will um provide condemnation.

1:23:43So, um,

1:23:47we hope that as we get further along in

1:23:49this process, we can make that very

1:23:52important connection

1:23:55and [clears throat] keep the traffic out

1:23:57of the neighborhood.

1:23:58um since there will be a signal here.

1:24:01But again, that that piece where the

1:24:05Salem Village connector is is owned by

1:24:07the Salem Village HOA

1:24:11>> and the other side uh I guess that's a

1:24:14potential

1:24:15extension.

1:24:17>> Yes. So that would um on the plan now

1:24:20extend all around kind of parallel to

1:24:24540.

1:24:27So right now our connections are shown

1:24:34um on Padstone

1:24:36um and to the stub streets. Although we

1:24:41know that through um our permit we may

1:24:44only get one crossing for and we're

1:24:48hoping it's James Street. So, our

1:24:51transportation impact study has is

1:24:53studying both connections. Um, just in

1:24:57case we cannot get James Street, uh, we

1:25:01don't think that the town will let us

1:25:05not have a connection on that side. Um,

1:25:10so

1:25:11again, really hopeful. Uh, and I know

1:25:15the town would like to use this for

1:25:17affordable housing and we have a sub

1:25:20street to that and we'd like to help

1:25:23them connect back to James Street. But

1:25:27again, that's that's not something we

1:25:29have control over

1:25:32>> because as it stands now, I mean, if it

1:25:34if the plan goes off as sort of

1:25:37presented there, that is a really nice

1:25:40area of continuous habitat that sort of

1:25:42links up, I think, to some RCA of

1:25:45>> Salem Village right there. So, not

1:25:48fragmenting the habitat with a road

1:25:50through the middle of it would be really

1:25:52nice.

1:25:56Well, what we don't know if council is

1:25:59willing to condemn and we, you know,

1:26:01can't speak for them and we can't speak

1:26:04for um any future councils that may be

1:26:08here. So, um, that's always

1:26:13an uncertainty.

1:26:24What level of storm water are you

1:26:26designing for? What's your storm?

1:26:30>> I'm gonna let Ed, my coworker, answer

1:26:33that. He's the engineer.

1:26:42So, at this point, we are designing to

1:26:44meet whatever is in the UDO, the

1:26:46requirements of the UDO. We're not able

1:26:48to exceed it at this point because we

1:26:50don't have an end user to determine, as

1:26:53Brendy mentioned, how the site will lay

1:26:55out. So, we're we're meeting what the

1:26:57code requires at this point.

1:26:59>> Is that a 10 or 25?

1:27:00>> I believe it's uh I believe it's a 10 if

1:27:04I'm remembering right. So,

1:27:07And do you know um sort of the two

1:27:10downstream roads, Padstone Drive and

1:27:12Flint Valley Lane, do you know if those

1:27:14either of those have a history of

1:27:15overwash or flooding issues?

1:27:17>> I am not aware of any. Um the residents

1:27:20when we had our neighborhood meeting did

1:27:22not mention any issues with that. They

1:27:24were more concerned to make sure that

1:27:26our own storm water was not going to end

1:27:27up in their ponds.

1:27:29>> Fair. Yeah.

1:27:30>> Which is a fair question. and we can't

1:27:32because we can't send our water into

1:27:34somebody else's storm water control

1:27:36measures. So that was their biggest

1:27:38concern when we met with them. So

1:27:40>> Okay.

1:27:42>> How many acres of on this one?

1:27:45>> How many acres is this site?

1:27:47>> It's approximately 50. It's close to 50

1:27:49acres.

1:27:53>> You know, I I think right at this time

1:27:55would be the time to commit to at least

1:27:57the 25ear storm. you're not very long on

1:28:01the design. A 25-year storm pond is

1:28:05probably only 20% larger than a 10-year

1:28:07storm. And I think that should be a

1:28:09requirement that you go ahead and make

1:28:12that commitment at least.

1:28:16We I look downstream on a lot of these

1:28:18things with these 10-year storm ponds

1:28:21and we're having trouble.

1:28:23And now is the time or previous to this

1:28:26is the time that you at least commit to

1:28:2825 year storm at least.

1:28:34I guess I'm feeling like this

1:28:38respectfully is a little premature

1:28:40without really knowing

1:28:43what are we actually

1:28:45assessing or evaluating with no actual

1:28:49plans and no end user and no developer

1:28:52and [snorts] this not actually being the

1:28:55plan that we're providing input on.

1:28:57Well, this one that that we're sharing

1:29:00here is the reasonzoning request.

1:29:05I It's unusual to come forward without a

1:29:08developer or a home builder, but it is

1:29:10the property owner's right to come

1:29:12forward with uh their own resoning.

1:29:17>> And it's the property owner's obligation

1:29:19to commit to items that this board needs

1:29:21to would like to see.

1:29:24Now is the time

1:29:26while the paper is clean.

1:29:35Um, did I read in the application that

1:29:37there's a plan to put a greenway

1:29:40somewhere in the RCA? No, I think there

1:29:44was some confusion

1:29:46by the neighbor, one neighbor who came

1:29:48to the meeting said he's fed up with the

1:29:52town, doesn't trust the town, that, you

1:29:56know, he doesn't trust that

1:29:59having RCA is going to stay RCA because

1:30:02they have RCA and the town wants to put

1:30:04a greenway in it. Uh, so I think I think

1:30:07he was referring to this area here. Oh,

1:30:10okay.

1:30:10>> Which does have, I believe, a greenway

1:30:13on the master plan.

1:30:16>> Where where is that place? Uh

1:30:19>> um along uh between Padstone and I'm not

1:30:23sure what that is, but

1:30:26>> I think he was referring to this area.

1:30:31Um, I see that you offered 25%

1:30:36of preserving existing tree canopy.

1:30:43If that I know, yeah, I know you can't

1:30:46commit to more because that road whether

1:30:48or not that center road crossing goes

1:30:50through. I mean, if if it doesn't go

1:30:52through, you could pretty much preserve

1:30:54all the trees that are on the property

1:30:56because there's not that many there,

1:30:59right? And so um you know 25% of a small

1:31:05swath could could mean a lot of them. So

1:31:09um yeah it's hard it's hard not knowing

1:31:14um where our connection will be and also

1:31:17um

1:31:19you know there's not a lot of trees on

1:31:20the property. So we probably are going

1:31:23to be planting a lot of trees out here

1:31:26>> and and just um where there are trees. I

1:31:29know some of it's on well the top part

1:31:31of the picture now um along there but

1:31:34there is and I see that there is a

1:31:36buffer designated you you would not

1:31:38actually be dis disturbing existing

1:31:40trees despite the buffer being there

1:31:43correct

1:31:44>> correct okay and there was a stretch I

1:31:46noticed that did not have trees it looks

1:31:49like pasture you would be putting in

1:31:50additional trees there correct

1:31:52>> in the pasture area here we don't have a

1:31:55planting plan right now but I think we

1:31:57can commit to one. Yes.

1:32:00I mean, it's not going to be used for

1:32:02anything else, so we can plant it. Okay.

1:32:10>> Speaking of, uh, planting, um, you know,

1:32:13I'm looking at this. 25% of the

1:32:15landscape shall be native species.

1:32:19Um,

1:32:24oh, for Eastern North Carolina, for I'm

1:32:26sorry, for

1:32:28>> for North Carolina,

1:32:30>> but um, we can do 75%

1:32:36at number 13. 75% and we I talked to our

1:32:41landscape architect and he said that he

1:32:43can probably get that close to 100

1:32:45except for those giant green arborites.

1:32:48So,

1:32:50We're we could get close to that 100.

1:32:54>> The last recommendation we had was 75%.

1:32:59>> And I I would recommend to 75%.

1:33:03>> I think that's I mean what's in front of

1:33:05me seems extremely low, but

1:33:09>> and 50% of those would be native to

1:33:12eastern United States or native of North

1:33:14Carolina.

1:33:17Would

1:33:20it be possible to select species that

1:33:24are more native to like the Pedmont

1:33:26area?

1:33:27>> Um

1:33:30on a developmentalist side.

1:33:34Well, I I did um see that

1:33:39you have a definition of native species

1:33:43and does that native species include

1:33:48plants that are considered non-invasive

1:33:52also? I guess that would be a question.

1:33:54>> There's a prohibition on on invasive

1:33:56species.

1:33:57>> Yeah. So, um,

1:34:00so

1:34:01yeah, I think

1:34:04except for the green arbor bitey that

1:34:08the neighbors are requesting,

1:34:10we could get to to 100%.

1:34:13>> And there are some other um there's some

1:34:16native holls that might be suitable

1:34:20in space of the arborite. Um,

1:34:23I know my neighborhood had a problem.

1:34:25When you plant a monoculture of

1:34:27arborvite, you get insect pests that you

1:34:30then have to manage and they just don't

1:34:31tend to do well.

1:34:34I hear you on that. I hear you. Um,

1:34:38so, um, could we increase that

1:34:43and then

1:34:46maybe give them some spaced out giant

1:34:50green herb rabbity? [laughter]

1:34:53I don't know. They they have their heart

1:34:55set on a 25 foot high

1:34:59screen opaque screen at two years of

1:35:02planting. And I don't think a giant

1:35:04green arborite is going to get there.

1:35:07Um,

1:35:08>> and then would the HOA of your

1:35:11development be responsible for

1:35:12maintaining the arbory? Okay.

1:35:16>> So, I'm I'm hearing that that's not a

1:35:18good idea. And maybe we should stick to

1:35:21the

1:35:23>> native plant. I I would landscape

1:35:26architect could probably recommend.

1:35:29>> Do you want to come as a withers

1:35:31employee?

1:35:32>> [laughter]

1:35:33>> She's my coworker.

1:35:34>> As a landscape architect, I can say that

1:35:36um native native species, there are

1:35:39plenty of native species that we can do

1:35:40that can provide a nice evergreen

1:35:42screen. And yeah, the ua is the species

1:35:46of um arborite. It's not native and it's

1:35:50not it's not great for our heavy storms

1:35:55that we get. They can sometimes shrill

1:35:57up, turn brown, and die. And so I think

1:36:00native and adapted native species would

1:36:03be better. And so my recommendation as a

1:36:06landscape architect not involved with

1:36:08this development would be to um to

1:36:12pursue a more diverse and native

1:36:15planting planted buffer

1:36:19if I can say that.

1:36:22>> Yeah, you can have you can participate

1:36:23in the conversation when you're when

1:36:25you're recused. You just can't vote.

1:36:27>> Okay.

1:36:28Okay. So in that case if it's native and

1:36:32adaptive species then we can do 100%.

1:36:38>> Adaptive adapted native species would

1:36:41just be like a cultivar a specific trade

1:36:44grown cultivar. So like a lot of oaks

1:36:47have a native oak but then they've

1:36:49trademarked a specific species which is

1:36:51known for like drought tolerance or it's

1:36:54known for you know disease resistance

1:36:57and stuff like that and I think we can

1:37:00we can definitely come up with that.

1:37:04So um if that's okay with you Rick we'll

1:37:08change it to 100% native and adaptive

1:37:11species.

1:37:14And with that, I do think there needs to

1:37:16be a certain percentage of strictly

1:37:18native species in there as as part of

1:37:21it.

1:37:22>> So it the um number 14

1:37:26>> number 14. So you're saying

1:37:27>> a minimum of 50 50% of the species shall

1:37:31be native to the eastern United States

1:37:33or native of North Carolina. So, would

1:37:36you be okay with maybe doing 75% native

1:37:41to east eastern United States and then

1:37:45the whole package native plus adaptive?

1:37:49That would get you there.

1:37:51>> Well, I'd have to consult with my

1:37:53landscape.

1:37:54>> That's going to be more difficult when

1:37:56it like for the buffers and things like

1:37:58that. I think you can do native tree

1:37:59species, but when it comes to ornamental

1:38:01plantings, like if there are I don't

1:38:04even know what's required on this. If

1:38:06there are foundation landscape

1:38:08requirements or parking lot landscape

1:38:11requirements, that's where you run into

1:38:12challenges with natives because they

1:38:14often get larger than you want them to

1:38:15be and they often aren't built for um

1:38:20parking lot islands, for example. And so

1:38:23I think you I think it's acceptable to

1:38:26commit to like buffers and places where

1:38:28you have lots of room for plants to grow

1:38:30to be native, but I wouldn't want to

1:38:33hold the entire development to

1:38:37100% native plants or

1:38:40>> internal to the development.

1:38:45>> Let let me ask you this being your

1:38:47landscaper. Uh, dog woods, which are a

1:38:49small tree. Is is that what you're

1:38:52referring to? That gets too big?

1:38:54>> No.

1:38:54>> Or are they too slow? They're slower

1:38:56growing.

1:38:57>> And red is there. Not a lot of evergreen

1:39:00shrubs, which are often required for

1:39:02screening requirements for parking lot

1:39:04islands. Um,

1:39:07I'm referring mostly to shrub matter.

1:39:10Uh, trees, I think, are easier to deal

1:39:12with with native than, you know, adapted

1:39:16natives.

1:39:19That answer your question?

1:39:21>> Did Did you say somebody wanted a 25

1:39:23foot high

1:39:25>> buffer within two years?

1:39:27>> I missed that.

1:39:27>> Within two years.

1:39:28>> Yeah, it's not it's not possible.

1:39:31>> I mean,

1:39:31>> yeah, I I told them we didn't I didn't

1:39:33think it was possible, but I wasn't an

1:39:35I'm not a tree arborist or a landscape.

1:39:38>> I mean, maybe if you plant a Leland

1:39:39Cyprus, but those have their own

1:39:41challenges and they're certainly not

1:39:43native.

1:39:45I I always look at these buffers, you

1:39:47know, and especially when you're coming

1:39:49in really early and you don't even have

1:39:51a developer or a or a builder and you

1:39:54know where the buffer is going to go.

1:39:57>> Now is the time to plant that buffer

1:39:59because I see a lot of these cartoons

1:40:01where you have beautiful green all

1:40:03around it and then after the thing gets

1:40:05built and you go driving down and hear

1:40:07these little telephone pole trees all

1:40:08over the place where all that green was

1:40:10supposed to be. So, in my opinion, the

1:40:12earlier these things get planted, if you

1:40:14know where they're going to be, that's

1:40:16what you should do.

1:40:17>> Well, it's not easy to plant buffers

1:40:21prior to large earth moving practices

1:40:26because

1:40:26>> and I agree with you on that.

1:40:27>> Yeah, the root disturbance and all you

1:40:30they're going to get established,

1:40:30they're going to start spreading their

1:40:32roots and then you're there disrupting

1:40:34them. You don't even know what grade

1:40:35everything's going to be at when it's

1:40:37all said and done. So that's the

1:40:39challenge with doing it ahead of

1:40:40construction.

1:40:41>> I I understand what you're saying, but

1:40:43sometimes right alongside of properties

1:40:44where people are looking for 25 foot I

1:40:47mean there's a balance. There is a

1:40:49balance and and you just need to strike

1:40:51it.

1:40:52>> Well, these these people haven't even

1:40:54sold their property yet and so the the

1:40:56funds and resources to do that probably

1:40:58don't exist. Um, so I I think what this

1:41:02development is trying to do honestly is

1:41:05lay a framework so that they can sell

1:41:07their property and ride off into

1:41:08retirement and

1:41:11not knowing who the end user is going to

1:41:13want to buy this, you know, because it's

1:41:15got environmental constraints. It's got

1:41:18roads that need to be built, you know, I

1:41:20mean, these are all things that make it

1:41:22difficult for developers to buy things.

1:41:25Not putting on any kind of developers

1:41:26hat. just explaining the nature of the

1:41:28biz here a little bit. Um, so I mean to

1:41:33me like what they're proposing seems

1:41:35reasonable and it seems like they're

1:41:36willing to work with um you guys on the

1:41:39the native and adapted species.

1:41:45So the proposal then is for condition 13

1:41:47to be 75% of the native lands. I think I

1:41:52must have moved something around here. I

1:41:54I think we can do 100% okay native and

1:41:57adaptive.

1:41:59>> Okay. But condition 13 reads a

1:42:02percentage that shall be native.

1:42:05>> Right. So we would change that to native

1:42:07and adaptive.

1:42:09>> Um I would just

1:42:11>> let's just leave it at 75.

1:42:13>> That's a breakdown. Um

1:42:14>> Oh, okay.

1:42:15>> 75% will be purely native.

1:42:17>> Okay. Um,

1:42:23and then 25% native and adaptive.

1:42:28>> Okay.

1:42:28>> Well, I guess just adaptive or or native

1:42:31or Yeah. So, and or adaptive. Yeah.

1:42:34>> Just just for some clarification, too,

1:42:36we the town only allows native or

1:42:38adaptive species to be planted. So,

1:42:41>> if if you do 75%, you're only going to

1:42:43be able to do adaptive elsewhere.

1:42:45>> Okay. Yeah. So you're really just

1:42:46writing down the percentage of native

1:42:48you're willing to commit to.

1:42:49>> Okay. Well, that that makes sense then.

1:42:52>> Yeah. And then 14 reads a minimum of 50%

1:42:55that are native to eastern United States

1:42:59or North Carolina. Okay.

1:43:02Um

1:43:04the Could you talk a little bit more? I

1:43:07feel like I've moved some boxes around

1:43:09on on the list here accidentally about

1:43:12um number 15 about pull these up right

1:43:15here.

1:43:16>> Yeah, please. That would be great.

1:43:18>> Right here.

1:43:20>> All right.

1:43:26>> So, number I think it's Well, I'm not

1:43:29sure where it went. Um

1:43:31>> 16 and 17. That's where it went from.

1:43:34Okay.

1:43:35um talking about after issuance of the

1:43:40final co um will you not have a set of

1:43:44covenants already in place?

1:43:46>> Yeah,

1:43:49some of the builders that we talked to

1:43:51said they don't mind having that

1:43:53condition, but they don't appreciate

1:43:58it during their sales.

1:44:01>> Understood. So, so if

1:44:04by the last CO

1:44:07by the last house is sold or permitted

1:44:11>> um then you know HOA

1:44:15>> but that will not be monumented in the

1:44:16covenants to be saddled the once the

1:44:19builder

1:44:20>> if it's a zoning condition then yes I

1:44:23believe so

1:44:23>> I guess I'm saying like like curious why

1:44:26why they uh why they don't want it in in

1:44:30there when

1:44:31when they're selling the the houses and

1:44:33the plots. I don't quite

1:44:36>> get the hesitation.

1:44:37>> Pretty.

1:44:38>> But but wouldn't wouldn't the builder

1:44:41though be in control of any

1:44:43architectural modifications? So, they

1:44:46could just be like, "No, you're not

1:44:47changing your yard because

1:44:49>> I I don't

1:44:50>> I just wanted to interject just on the

1:44:52wording of the condition. It cannot be

1:44:54tied to building permit. We can only tie

1:44:56it to plat. So we can't have zoning

1:44:58conditions for a residential single

1:45:00family residential that are tied to um

1:45:02building permit or CF.

1:45:04>> So final plat

1:45:05>> it has to be we can only that's the

1:45:07latest it can be as plat.

1:45:09>> Okay.

1:45:11So final final plat change that too

1:45:16>> and at that point you wouldn't have the

1:45:18grass planted anyway.

1:45:30So I guess the point of those I guess

1:45:32from the board's perspective is you know

1:45:34once the builder leaves

1:45:38the homeowners if they would like to

1:45:40change their grass to be more

1:45:41environmentally friendly would like the

1:45:43option to do so.

1:45:44>> Yes.

1:45:44>> Because we often or at least in my

1:45:47neighborhood you you cannot change your

1:45:49grass and that is enforced.

1:45:52I I I understand.

1:45:55I've been ticketed for stuff growing in

1:45:58my yard.

1:46:05>> And I guess the same thing would apply

1:46:07to number 17 as well.

1:46:08>> Yeah. Final plat

1:46:22and we are committing to warm season

1:46:25grasses. So, you know, it'll be a while

1:46:29before those new warm season grasses

1:46:31start getting other things mixed in with

1:46:34them.

1:46:41And so, Bill, did you you formally added

1:46:45um let's see the storm

1:46:47>> request

1:46:47>> the storm water pond one?

1:46:49>> I am formally adding that as

1:46:51>> Okay.

1:46:52>> Um what's your storm? So, that's number

1:46:54eight.

1:46:56>> 8B.

1:46:57>> 8B is the 25-year storm.

1:47:00>> 8B.

1:47:01>> 8B. Okay.

1:47:03>> A question about the storm. Just out of

1:47:06curiosity,

1:47:07um, storm is based upon intensity of

1:47:10development, right? So, if they are

1:47:13increasing the intensity of the

1:47:15development as it comes to plan review,

1:47:17it will then be automatically required

1:47:19to do the 25 year storm or No,

1:47:21>> no, the the UDO [clears throat] I mean,

1:47:23I'm not in the water resources

1:47:24department, but I checked our um water

1:47:26resources map, and this is not in in an

1:47:28area where the UDO requires the 25-year

1:47:31storm to be treated, only the 10. So we

1:47:34would need a zoning condition

1:47:37to address.

1:47:38>> Yes. The the property owner has agreed

1:47:40to 25 years.

1:47:43>> So it's 8B.

1:47:49Y'all are keeping track of this, right?

1:47:52[laughter] Okay.

1:47:57Because I'm taking notes.

1:48:02One thing um

1:48:05this this is not in the uh

1:48:10section um for residential or or for

1:48:14both. Um it should be it was a mistake

1:48:18on our part when we set this up

1:48:20originally uh is to uh install conduits

1:48:24for solar energy systems. Uh

1:48:28>> I'm sorry.

1:48:30>> A condition to uh put in solar conduits

1:48:34for solar energy system.

1:48:36>> Oh, in the units. Uh

1:48:37>> yeah, we can do that. I think that's

1:48:41good. Yeah.

1:48:41>> Okay. It's in

1:48:43>> number 39.

1:48:45>> It's number 39. Yes.

1:48:47>> Yes.

1:48:47>> Okay. So, number 39. Yes.

1:48:51For and then we'll just say residential,

1:48:54>> right? And to apply to the residential.

1:48:56Yes,

1:49:00>> I had a question. Uh, number 22 is

1:49:04checked, but there's no

1:49:06actual numerical value in the line.

1:49:08>> Yeah, it's five. I'm sorry.

1:49:10>> Oh, okay. Can we get that?

1:49:16>> Yep. Five.

1:49:28my my um just so you all know it's

1:49:32really hard to fill out this form.

1:49:33[laughter]

1:49:34So

1:49:35>> may I ask are they agreeing to what John

1:49:37asked with the conduit?

1:49:39>> Yes. Yes.

1:49:40>> Okay.

1:49:43And then 23. Um if we can say

1:49:48or as that condition um um that would be

1:49:53up to the

1:49:56future developer.

1:49:58Have them pick one or the other.

1:50:02Think that's fair.

1:50:17and 30. I guess we didn't really

1:50:21understand um

1:50:25to wire the garages at the exterior.

1:50:29Um so we wrote in in in the garage in

1:50:32the garage or at the exterior.

1:50:35Um,

1:50:39>> sorry. Did you jump down to number 30?

1:50:41Is that

1:50:42>> Yeah.

1:50:42>> Yeah.

1:50:42>> I'm sorry. Yes.

1:50:54>> There was some talk about the 220s in

1:50:56the garage that we couldn't

1:50:59follow through with that. And I don't

1:51:01understand that fully still to this day

1:51:03because we check all the 110s

1:51:06everywhere.

1:51:08And I I still think that it can be an

1:51:12option in the garage or outside of the

1:51:13garage either way. Just so long as

1:51:16they've got 220 there. And frankly,

1:51:20almost all developers go with that now

1:51:22because they can advertise the building

1:51:25as EV ready. I mean, it's it's the

1:51:28cheapest thing they can do to have that

1:51:30uh ability.

1:51:32>> Yeah, it's more of an amenity now than

1:51:34it is a requirement.

1:51:36>> Yeah,

1:51:36>> I think

1:51:41I guess we're jumping around. I'd like

1:51:42to jump back to number 28 if we may.

1:51:44>> Yes.

1:51:45>> And uh I recognize that you don't have

1:51:49you don't know how many homes I was

1:51:51looking at. Uh I guess if you had 155

1:51:53units, you'd be 15 units with solar.

1:51:57uh 3.5 kilowatts is a very small uh

1:52:01solar PV system and to make it easy and

1:52:05frankly LAR has committed to this and I

1:52:08believe the last two developments that

1:52:113.5 kilowatts of solar shall be

1:52:14installed on at least 10% of the

1:52:16buildings. You can pick which buildings

1:52:18you want and everything else but 10% of

1:52:20the buildings is what LAR agreed to and

1:52:24I think that's the right thing to do.

1:52:26>> [clears throat]

1:52:32>> And that's my suggestion.

1:52:42>> What is the density of the LAR

1:52:43development?

1:52:45>> I'm sorry.

1:52:45>> Like how many what's the density of the

1:52:47LAR development that they committed to

1:52:49that?

1:52:49>> I think they were medium density. Are

1:52:51you aware of that?

1:52:52>> Which one? Lar they committed to the 10%

1:52:57>> remember the name of it

1:53:00>> I'm quite certain it was a medium

1:53:02density a lot of this is medium density

1:53:04and semi- high density and certainly

1:53:06it's more difficult sometimes to get the

1:53:08developers to go on a higher density

1:53:10because the roof might be owned uh with

1:53:15all the whole group but with this

1:53:17development where they're showing a

1:53:18number of town homes or regular uh homes

1:53:23It should be quite easy for them to uh

1:53:27meet that requirement. I

1:53:28>> I think it ought to be limited to the

1:53:30single family homes uh not the town

1:53:32homes.

1:53:33>> Pardon me.

1:53:34>> I think it should be limited to just the

1:53:36the single family homes.

1:53:38>> Okay. I I will say to the single single

1:53:42family homes if that uh is satisfactory.

1:53:48>> We had not discussed that. So I'll have

1:53:51to discuss it with our client the

1:53:54property owner.

1:53:54>> Okay. Okay. So it's 10% to single family

1:53:58homes.

1:54:15U one of our questions was um

1:54:19we did get a suggestion about planting

1:54:23getting permission to plant in the CSX

1:54:25rail corridor. Um but and speaking to

1:54:29the Prince family and others who have

1:54:31lived near rail corridors, they spray

1:54:33them and nothing would probably survive.

1:54:38So, um we will be working

1:54:43um to

1:54:45probably supplement that buffer along

1:54:47that corridor. And uh in case you didn't

1:54:52see the the

1:54:55um driveway to South Salem Street will

1:54:58be closed off with this development. Um

1:55:03they did have this family farm had a

1:55:06farm stand and um CSX told them they

1:55:10could no longer have that farm stand

1:55:13um because it was dangerous to drive

1:55:16over the railroad tracks. So um you know

1:55:20that took part of their livelihood away

1:55:23having that farm stand. So

1:55:32That will be closed off.

1:55:46Um, so you have not had a

1:55:51like an official um JD done on the

1:55:55streams there or anything yet?

1:55:59>> Um, not an official. No. Um, we have

1:56:03gone out and we have gone out and done a

1:56:05delineation and that's what you see on

1:56:07there.

1:56:07>> Okay. So, um I'm seeing a lot of

1:56:09wetlands on there. Um

1:56:12>> are those is it like stream and then the

1:56:15stream fizzles out and becomes a wetland

1:56:17and then it picks up as stream again or

1:56:19is it a continuous channel?

1:56:22>> It is not continuous.

1:56:24>> Okay.

1:56:26Um

1:56:28but yes, there are wetlands on the site

1:56:30>> and so um are they considered isolated

1:56:34wetlands?

1:56:35>> That's a question.

1:56:39Are these isolated wetlands?

1:56:49>> They are isolated wetlands. Okay. Okay.

1:56:52So then I would like to propose a

1:56:5430-foot buffer shall be provided along

1:56:56existing delineated wetlands.

1:56:59That's number seven.

1:57:01>> That's fine.

1:57:03We talked about that.

1:57:06Okay.

1:57:11>> So, 30 foot buffer along the

1:57:17delineated wetlands.

1:57:18>> Yeah. I mean obviously if they fall end

1:57:20up falling into a larger stream buffer

1:57:22that sort of like kind of supersedes it

1:57:24but um if in fact

1:57:28the wetlands get thrown out

1:57:31um any juris you know they're not

1:57:33jurisdictional then

1:57:37yeah and the again unless a road needs

1:57:43to impact one of those

1:57:49which we have no control over that.

1:57:52Amanda's going to make us connect to

1:57:54that Yately Lane if we can't connect to

1:57:57James Street.

1:58:00[laughter]

1:58:17I mean, obviously we all want to connect

1:58:19to James Street. That's the best.

1:58:22Everybody wants to be at a traffic

1:58:24light.

1:58:32Okay. At this time, we can't commit to

1:58:34the 10% solar.

1:58:46through all the different ones that we

1:58:47recommended.

1:58:57>> So we are voting on

1:59:00uh the board recommendations now.

1:59:03>> Yeah. Is that the process, Bruce? Now we

1:59:05we vote on these recommendations and

1:59:07then if they don't

1:59:09>> so the applicant so the way we have it

1:59:11written up is the applicant can request

1:59:13a delay to have a second meeting in

1:59:14front of you to discuss and work on the

1:59:16conditions you'd like to see as part of

1:59:18this proposal or if the applicant

1:59:20decides they don't want to you can make

1:59:21your recommendation now. Um but if there

1:59:24sounds like there's things that they

1:59:25need to discuss it would be in their

1:59:27best interest to request a delay come

1:59:29see you again in the future.

1:59:33Is that what you would like?

1:59:35>> Uh, do you recommend that we discuss the

1:59:38solar?

1:59:41>> It depends on what your time frame is

1:59:43for for moving along, I guess.

1:59:46>> Um, we are in our first review cycle. We

1:59:48should be getting comments back next

1:59:50week.

1:59:54I mean, y'all are very nice. We don't

1:59:58really want to come back and see

1:59:59[laughter] you, but

2:00:02But we will if we need to.

2:00:04>> I think the decision before the board is

2:00:07would that one condition make a

2:00:08difference in your recommendation on

2:00:10whether you think the project um the the

2:00:13zoning conditions offered mitigate the

2:00:15environmental impact which is the

2:00:16wording of that legislative condition.

2:00:19So

2:00:20I mean you you could say we would like a

2:00:23vote today or you could say we want to

2:00:25wait and talk about it more. But you

2:00:27know,

2:00:28>> I think as I understand it, the only

2:00:30thing that that you're not able to

2:00:31commit to is the 10% solar on the single

2:00:34family homes.

2:00:36>> Correct.

2:00:37>> And and you can commit to every other

2:00:39recommendation we we've made so far.

2:00:42>> Yes. The with the wording that we've um

2:00:45agreed upon. Yes.

2:00:53So

2:01:07>> Okay, we're going to request a vote at

2:01:09this time. Thank you.

2:01:10>> Sorry, what did you say?

2:01:11>> We're going to request a vote at this

2:01:12time.

2:01:19Um, so if I can have a little assistance

2:01:24here, um, how would I go about this? Um,

2:01:27have we voting for

2:01:30everything bundled up minus the solar or

2:01:34u we just itemizing and going one one by

2:01:37one?

2:01:38>> So, I hate to put be in the position of

2:01:42putting words in the board's mouth.

2:01:43Yeah, I think you have a couple of op

2:01:44well, you have three options. And if

2:01:47you'll look at um well you don't have it

2:01:49in front of you. Our the report that

2:01:51will be sent to the town council when

2:01:52the planning board gives three these

2:01:54three options. You can recommend

2:01:56approval based on the conditions that

2:01:58the applicant has agreed to which is

2:02:00basically everything you've discussed

2:02:02minus the solar. And that would be

2:02:04saying that the recommendation is that

2:02:06the resoning um recommending approval of

2:02:10the reszoning based on the project's

2:02:11ability to comply with that legis the

2:02:13environmental impact legislative

2:02:15consideration. Your second option is to

2:02:18approve with conditions that you

2:02:20recommend approval but only if the

2:02:22applicant agrees to um the additional

2:02:25condition not yet offered which is the

2:02:27solar or you could recommend denial

2:02:30saying that it's not consistent with the

2:02:32legislative consideration.

2:02:38Does that make sense?

2:02:40>> Me I think number two is the right way

2:02:41to go probably. Uh and council can take

2:02:44a look at it. They've done that before

2:02:46and when these things come up, they have

2:02:48held strong for what we did. So, I I

2:02:52could live with number two.

2:02:55>> Any other comments about this before

2:02:58vote?

2:02:59>> Um, I would like the minutes to reflect

2:03:01that

2:03:03I I feel like we're being asked to vote

2:03:05upon a hypothetical

2:03:10plan

2:03:13given our options. I'm I'm fine to make

2:03:16a vote, but I don't feel

2:03:19like I have the full picture of

2:03:22>> I'm going to second that

2:03:23>> what the impact is here.

2:03:24>> Yeah.

2:03:25>> Yeah. I think without a plan, I think uh

2:03:28we can I can echo the statement.

2:03:32>> Mr. Chair, if I may.

2:03:33>> Yes.

2:03:34>> To some degree all resonings are

2:03:36hypothetical. We do not get the um we do

2:03:41not get to see the final plan, the

2:03:43subdivision plan, the site plan at the

2:03:46time of reszoning. So, we don't know

2:03:48other than the map that's being shown

2:03:51now with the points of access where the

2:03:53different types of uses would be.

2:03:54There's a commitment for an open space

2:03:56in the middle. I can see in a bright

2:03:57green color buffer generally where RCA

2:04:00is going to be. this is the level of

2:04:02review that we would get for um a

2:04:05reasonzoning even if we knew who the

2:04:07builder was.

2:04:09So, I just wanted to offer that little

2:04:11bit of clarification. I think

2:04:13historically we've seen a little more

2:04:16detail. Maybe it's been at a different

2:04:18point in the process, but

2:04:25>> we've seen we've seen projects uh

2:04:27proposals uh and and

2:04:30all different stages of of of it. Uh

2:04:33we've seen

2:04:36stuff where it's just plot of land and

2:04:38they want to reszone, they don't even

2:04:40know what they're going to do with it uh

2:04:41at all. Uh on this one, uh

2:04:46it's clear they want to put put some

2:04:49houses and and town homes on it. Uh

2:04:52so I

2:04:54in my mind it's it's it's neither better

2:04:57nor worse than than

2:04:59pretty much all the other ones we've had

2:05:01to had to make a decision on.

2:05:05Is there something um Ann that you would

2:05:09normally see in a plan that maybe we can

2:05:11help clarify for you?

2:05:15>> Not necessarily. I just um

2:05:21feel overall that the

2:05:24development

2:05:27of residences, especially things like

2:05:29town homes, that we're just to a point

2:05:31where there are almost no

2:05:35requirements that can be met that that

2:05:37don't offset the impact. Um,

2:05:42but I that's not really what I'm being

2:05:44asked to vote on here. That's so

2:05:52um I got to be honest with you, a lot of

2:05:53this stuff is beyond my expertise, my

2:05:56personal expertise or professional

2:05:58expertise. Um, I I I would love to hear

2:06:01from the board members. Um, I know

2:06:04Billy, you stated how you feel. Um,

2:06:08because it's

2:06:10seems like we have three options here as

2:06:13far as how to how to vote. Um, anybody

2:06:17else want to chime in?

2:06:22I agree with the approval with condition

2:06:24and just let it go up to the planning

2:06:26board and they can

2:06:29look at the whole project and

2:06:33>> now if they don't meet all the

2:06:34conditions then it'll come back here is

2:06:36my understanding. Is that correct?

2:06:39>> That's decide to do something.

2:06:41>> That's not correct. Once you make a vote

2:06:43that's the that's the recommendation

2:06:45that gets forwarded to the planning

2:06:47board and the town council.

2:06:49They can ask for us to withhold the vote

2:06:52at this point and then come back a

2:06:53second time. I think

2:06:56the way I understand.

2:06:59>> Could you repeat that? I'm sorry.

2:07:02>> We if we

2:07:04hold our vote tonight, they can come

2:07:06back a second time and and represent and

2:07:10either say we can't do it at all or or

2:07:13we can't. Uh

2:07:16kind of that time we would take

2:07:20>> at that time we would take a vote. Yeah.

2:07:26>> Well, if it isn't going to come back if

2:07:29they don't agree, then I kind of have

2:07:30trouble agreeing to let it go.

2:07:33>> Yeah.

2:07:34>> Because I mean, we're just hands off at

2:07:37that point.

2:07:38I thought it would come back if they

2:07:40didn't agree. Well, so they've asked for

2:07:42>> if they before they went to council, if

2:07:44they didn't agree, I thought it would

2:07:45come back. And maybe I misunderstood

2:07:47what you said.

2:07:52>> So if they don't agree tonight, we can

2:07:54just say come back another night.

2:07:57Is that our option?

2:08:01>> Could I ask a question regarding the

2:08:03solar? Um, I mean they're doing EV

2:08:06charging in all the homes, you know,

2:08:08allowing for access to that. Like I

2:08:11guess I'm wondering like what is the

2:08:13true benefit of of the solar? I mean

2:08:16it's going to they're going to have a

2:08:18lot of trees on this property. So

2:08:19there's going to be shading from heat

2:08:21island. Like I'm trying like what is

2:08:23your what is your reason for holding so

2:08:25fast to the solar? My curiosity.

2:08:27>> Well, I I look at any building if you

2:08:30add the solar you get it closer to a

2:08:32truly green building. And when I look at

2:08:36when I look at my understanding is it's

2:08:38a pretty flat old farm place. It's

2:08:40there's not a ton of trees on this darn

2:08:42thing. And if I look at 10% of the

2:08:45houses of having solar, you can put

2:08:47solar on the south facing roof and it's

2:08:51most efficient. If you have to go east

2:08:52or west, you lose 15% of the efficiency,

2:08:55but it's still a good thing. And three

2:08:58and a three and a half kilowatts today

2:09:02is um

2:09:06is less than 10 panels. It's not a big

2:09:09thing, but it gets them started. And

2:09:12there's a there's a development I forget

2:09:13what the number of it is on Hot Road

2:09:16Holt Road a while back. We the council

2:09:19pushed them to put a certain number of

2:09:22of uh houses have solar and they far

2:09:26exceeded that early on in the

2:09:28development. One and the other part of

2:09:30it is it's if people see solar on

2:09:34houses, they're willing to put solar on

2:09:37their house. That's that

2:09:39>> well in that case um there is a lot of

2:09:42houses along Alley Lane that already

2:09:45have solar.

2:09:46>> Yeah. And this is that's a good

2:09:48opportunity for this development to do

2:09:50the same thing.

2:09:51>> I believe those residents should have

2:09:53that choice. Um my my only reason for

2:09:58asking is like where there's lots of

2:10:00density, those costs can be spread

2:10:03across across multiple homes. This is

2:10:06not an enormous development

2:10:09and we don't yet fully know exactly what

2:10:13the density is going to be. But when we

2:10:16start adding these conditions, those

2:10:18costs get added to the homeowners and

2:10:20there's already a lot of like not

2:10:22developable land on this parcel. And so

2:10:25that would be my concern is that

2:10:28inadvertently you could be rising the

2:10:30cost of housing. Even though I'm like a

2:10:32proponent of like wetlands and streams

2:10:34and native plants and all of it,

2:10:38it's just that's the reality of what we

2:10:41impose. And so I I guess not that I'm

2:10:44voting on this, but my thought would be

2:10:46to be a little cautious about

2:10:50imposing things when development size is

2:10:55not enormous or not very large.

2:11:00>> But in this case, we're talking about a

2:11:02percentage of houses. Higher density

2:11:04means a lot more houses. So I I think by

2:11:07going with the 10%

2:11:10you've mitigated the problem of low

2:11:11density. And the other part of it is

2:11:14that solar does pay itself off over the

2:11:16long haul. Um it's not quite as good now

2:11:19because of dear Donald Trump and his

2:11:21screwed up uh um tax program. It pays

2:11:25itself off to the homeowner but not to

2:11:28the developer which is then

2:11:30>> it would be built into the cost of the

2:11:32individual 10% of those homes and it

2:11:35wouldn't be spread across the other

2:11:36homes in the in the property.

2:11:39>> Yeah. It goes into the one home and we

2:11:42we had a number of developers not just

2:11:44the one out on Holt Road that did commit

2:11:46to this sort of thing. Again, sir, this

2:11:48is there is no developer here. So, we

2:11:51can't we're not asking we're you're

2:11:53asking the farmer owner that's going to

2:11:56get a developer.

2:11:57>> Yes.

2:11:57>> And and I know a number of the

2:12:01developments where we required solar and

2:12:04they flipped them to other developers.

2:12:06That's almost the same thing. I mean,

2:12:08that it was a developer that was going

2:12:10to flip the property, committed to the

2:12:1310% and then flip the property.

2:12:16And then if an

2:12:17>> it's not a it I mean it's $7,000 per

2:12:20home

2:12:21>> for a system

2:12:22>> $7,000 per home. That's not the quote I

2:12:25>> That's not the quote I got.

2:12:27>> A three for 3.5 kilowatts.

2:12:30Um you can

2:12:33I got I got an offer a while back at one

2:12:36a$180 a watt. So for 3.5 kilowatts,

2:12:40you're looking at seven at $7,000

2:12:44or even if it was $10,000.

2:12:48But that's what they're going for now. I

2:12:49mean,

2:12:52the the Chinese are making the the the

2:12:54panels so darn cheap, they get them for

2:12:57less than 50 cents a watt for the panel.

2:13:00That's the big cost. And then the

2:13:02inverter is the other big cost.

2:13:05So, I got a quote for $25,000 on my

2:13:08>> For what?

2:13:09>> For solar.

2:13:10>> For what size?

2:13:11>> I was I don't know, Bill. That's not

2:13:15[laughter] That's not

2:13:16>> It It makes all the difference in the

2:13:17world because it really comes down to

2:13:19how much are you paying per watt

2:13:21>> and and certainly the smaller ones are

2:13:23going to be higher, more expensive. I

2:13:25got a qu quote for a 9 kilowatt system

2:13:30probably three months ago or less at

2:13:33a$180 a watt. A$180 a watt

2:13:38>> with 9 kilow everything.

2:13:40>> That's less than $18,000 for 9 kilow.

2:13:43>> So what is our what is our move here if

2:13:47they're not agreeing to solar? Does

2:13:49somebody want to make a motion?

2:13:53This can't go on forever.

2:13:54>> No. I mean, I I think I think we need to

2:13:56go ahead and have a vote uh on

2:13:58something.

2:13:59>> I'm sorry. Can I ask one other question

2:14:01not related to solar? The fourth bullet

2:14:05on

2:14:08one, two, three, four, sorry. Fifth

2:14:09bullet. Working with town staff to

2:14:11propose addition to infrastructure to

2:14:12town owned parcel with a commitment for

2:14:15is there

2:14:17I'm sorry, it's on the

2:14:19>> Yeah, on the Yeah. Yeah.

2:14:22Um

2:14:24is

2:14:26is that implying some percentage of

2:14:29the proposed

2:14:32development as shown here will be deemed

2:14:35affordable or

2:14:37>> so uh right now um what we put in our

2:14:40first submitt was that 5% of the homes

2:14:43would be affordable

2:14:46um either 80% AMI for rent for 120% AMI

2:14:53for sale and that um the future

2:14:58developer would extend infrastructure,

2:15:01roads and utilities so through the town

2:15:05owned parcel so they could do additional

2:15:07affordable and um that helps the town

2:15:11not having to put that out to bid. Um

2:15:16so

2:15:18um we're working through those that we

2:15:20just submitted and we've had one meeting

2:15:22on it. So it's still a work in progress.

2:15:26But yes. So then I guess my my question

2:15:28related to that is then does that

2:15:31potentially impact the affordability if

2:15:34we are going to require solar that that

2:15:36we are furthering distancing someone

2:15:38from being able to live here because

2:15:41we've now made them less

2:15:43>> in that particular home. Yes.

2:15:45>> Yeah. Okay.

2:15:50I think if you take out a 30-year

2:15:53mortgage and you're

2:15:56putting us on a solar panel, I think

2:15:59their life is 25 30 years.

2:16:02>> They're guaranteed for 25 years and they

2:16:04typically last 40 years of

2:16:06>> um

2:16:07>> that's not accurate. Um they say that

2:16:10but your typical degragation you reach

2:16:12about 80% at the 20 year life and have

2:16:15to replace them. Your inverter and other

2:16:17electrical components usually have a 10

2:16:2015 year life.

2:16:22>> So when you take

2:16:23>> the the inverter has a 15 year life but

2:16:26the panels they guarantee them for 25

2:16:29years with I think like a 10% degra deg

2:16:32degradation.

2:16:34>> So if somebody's going to stay in their

2:16:35home through retirement you're asking a

2:16:38retiree

2:16:40to make that investment of replacing the

2:16:43roof and

2:16:43>> what are you saying? I'm sorry. So, at

2:16:45the end of their retirement, they're

2:16:48going to be putting in a new roof and

2:16:50new solar

2:16:53if it's a 30-year mortgage.

2:16:56>> That's my question. I don't think we

2:16:57need to.

2:16:58>> Yeah.

2:17:01>> Um,

2:17:06can I have a motion for one of the three

2:17:09options that was offered to us?

2:17:13I move to approve with conditions with

2:17:16solar condition.

2:17:18>> Second.

2:17:22>> All in favor?

2:17:25>> A vote is that unanimous.

2:17:28>> Oh.

2:17:29>> Um, all in favor?

2:17:33>> Okay. It was unanimous. Okay. Okay.

2:17:38>> Okay. Thank you.

2:17:39>> Thank you.

2:17:42Um,

2:17:43I have a question for staff. Um, if

2:17:48restroom break, um, do does Enjari take

2:17:52over? Do I call to recess?

2:17:59[laughter]

2:17:59>> Yeah, the chair, you can just call for a

2:18:01recess without objection.

2:18:03>> Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. Uh,

2:18:06motion for a recess. You say say without

2:18:08without objection we'll go into recess

2:18:10for five minutes or something like that.

2:18:11>> I'm sorry.

2:18:12>> The chair could say without objection.

2:18:14>> Oh, all right. Without object if they

2:18:16want, but

2:18:17>> we we will take a fivem minute recess at

2:18:19this time.

2:18:20>> All right. Do I think about

2:18:24>> Sorry, guys.

2:18:26>> They want to

2:18:30ask a question. client whether they want

2:18:32to offer the condition or not.

2:18:36>> Typically stand

2:18:39out back if they got the answer

2:18:44to go back and get answers.

2:18:50>> But the idea is

2:18:51>> what if we felt like there's nothing no

2:18:53condition.

2:18:53>> I got answers for you. They're telling

2:18:55you no. Then you vote

2:18:56>> no

2:18:59vote against the motion right out

2:19:05which

2:19:08>> well I mean

2:19:10they voted just

2:19:13sent it there and said okay what%

2:19:17>> okay so maybe don't I didn't feel

2:19:24that's a But there could be others.

2:19:26>> Yeah.

2:19:26>> Yeah.

2:19:27>> And or

2:19:29>> it's almost also the cumulative effect

2:19:31that like

2:19:33>> every

2:19:36[laughter]

2:19:38>> whatever it's only then like

2:19:41>> so if this was like an entirely forested

2:19:45>> oh

2:19:45>> lot then I mean yeah so like even this

2:19:49project with a different landscape

2:19:51couldn't fit that situation. You could

2:19:53just So the vote is that someone makes a

2:19:55motion to vote and and I would say no.

2:19:57>> Yeah.

2:19:57>> Okay.

2:20:03>> You're generating more more.

2:20:06>> You could recommend denial.

2:20:07>> Yeah. You can get more people.

2:20:11>> That's an option.

2:20:13>> But then do we lose I guess this is

2:20:15where but then do we

2:20:16>> but then it still could go on in the

2:20:18process

2:20:20potentially

2:20:22>> potentially. I mean like are we better

2:20:24off at this

2:20:29>> than

2:20:30kind of saying no

2:20:33>> now town council now planning board go

2:20:36ahead and do what you want.

2:20:36>> Yeah. See, I'm not sure what the

2:20:38mechanism is

2:20:41>> for the ne the planning board and onward

2:20:44to see like oh we on it.

2:24:17look at it and say

2:24:18>> I'm going to call the meeting back

2:24:21>> session 8:07 p.m.

2:24:24>> Uh we will continue with the resoning

2:24:26case. Uh we're moving on to reszoning

2:24:29case number 26 Z I'm sorry CZ Z10

2:24:33uh Vetti expansion. Uh, Miss Chap,

2:24:40>> see if I can find my PowerPoint real

2:24:42quick.

2:24:45[snorts]

2:24:49Good evening, chair, members of the

2:24:50board. I'm attorney Leticia Shapiro with

2:24:52Morning Star Law Group here on behalf of

2:24:54the applicant RXR realy. I'm going to

2:24:57preface this as this is something unique

2:25:00that usually doesn't come before you and

2:25:02I see some familiar faces and then I see

2:25:04some wonderful new faces. So, I hope

2:25:06that I do a great job of explaining and

2:25:09I'm able to answer any of your

2:25:10questions. So, this case um let me start

2:25:14the PowerPoint. That would be helpful.

2:25:17This case involves the parcels that are

2:25:19highlighted in yellow that are located

2:25:21in between US 155 and just north of 540.

2:25:26The purpose of the reszoning is to

2:25:28reszone these properties to the

2:25:31sustainable development conditional use

2:25:33district in order to bring them into the

2:25:35Vidia SD plan. So here you can see that

2:25:39the properties are surrounded by the

2:25:40parcels in dark purple which are have

2:25:43been reszoned SDCZ and are currently

2:25:46part of the VIDIA

2:25:48SD plan. So as you are as you may be

2:25:51aware uh the sustainable development

2:25:54conditional use district is uh

2:25:56distinguished from other zoning

2:25:57districts because it's unique purpose it

2:26:00has a unique purpose and intent. So on

2:26:02your screen is an excerpt of the UDO

2:26:05that provides the SD standards, one of

2:26:07which expressly states at subsection B

2:26:10that this zoning district is expected to

2:26:13preserve and enhance critical

2:26:14environmental and natural resources

2:26:16including water resources and ecosystem

2:26:19services in the stream network flowing

2:26:22through the district and also states in

2:26:24subsection D that innovative techniques

2:26:27and practices are aimed at maximizing

2:26:30efficiency and use of energy and

2:26:32materials.

2:26:33The Vidia SD plan has guiding principles

2:26:37that includes um a specific aim at

2:26:39eliminating the concept of waste, insist

2:26:42on renewable future, integrate,

2:26:45put my glasses on, integrate nature

2:26:48throughout the community, and provide a

2:26:50district where humanity and nature

2:26:52coexist in a healthy, supportive,

2:26:54diverse, and sustainable condition.

2:26:59The SD plan defines sustainable and

2:27:02sustainability as you see here on your

2:27:04screen. But the major distinction

2:27:06between the SD the Vidia SD plan and the

2:27:11requirements of other zoning districts

2:27:13is what's called the environmental

2:27:15enhancement plan or the EP.

2:27:18The SD plan requires a separate set of

2:27:21sustainability standards addressing

2:27:23natural resources and the secondary and

2:27:26cumulative impacts associated with

2:27:28developing Vidia as a whole.

2:27:31The EP expressly says the project is

2:27:34intended to use best practices involving

2:27:37land use diversity, building design,

2:27:40waste avoidance, energy optimization,

2:27:44water conservation and protection,

2:27:46transportation and open space over the

2:27:49lifespan of this multi-phase

2:27:51development. So taken together, that SD

2:27:54plan and the EP are intended to provide

2:27:58environmental protection that equals or

2:28:01exceeds the traditional metrics of the

2:28:03Apex UDO, state law, and federal law.

2:28:07So, while I recognize that we do not

2:28:09have specific commitments to present to

2:28:11the board this evening, the purpose of

2:28:13the Vidia SD plan and the EP is what

2:28:17guides develop development calling for

2:28:20the integration of environmental

2:28:22stewardship with economic and social

2:28:24needs. Recognizing that in order to get

2:28:27there, these objectives objectives will

2:28:30evolve as development continues.

2:28:33As Vidia expands and development and

2:28:37develops, it extends the same

2:28:39sustainability framework, standards, and

2:28:41guiding principles to additional land.

2:28:44The EP makes it clear that environmental

2:28:47protection is a projectwide obligation.

2:28:50It commits to measurable energy and

2:28:52building performance standards, parks

2:28:55and recreation commitments, open space

2:28:57that is designed as an interconnected

2:28:59community system, multimodal

2:29:02transportation, and storm water

2:29:04infrastructure that is expected to

2:29:06provide environmental and community

2:29:08benefits such as creating wildlife

2:29:10habitat and educational opportunities.

2:29:13Vidia is expected to provide a high

2:29:16quality of life through the creation of

2:29:18healthy living landscape within a

2:29:20mixeduse community. It goes above and

2:29:23beyond by regulating the development as

2:29:25an integrated community rather than a

2:29:28collection of individual parcels. It

2:29:31imposes projectwide obligations for

2:29:34among other things environmental

2:29:36performance, energy efficiency,

2:29:38interconnected open space and greenways

2:29:40and transit infrastructure.

2:29:43So, with that, I'm happy to do my best

2:29:45to answer any questions, but I will tell

2:29:47you that the developer and staff have

2:29:51worked extremely hard on this EP plan,

2:29:55on the SD plan um to make sure that it

2:29:59either meets or exceeds the UDO and it

2:30:02continues to evolve as projects come in

2:30:05for development plan. I can give you

2:30:07just kind of a and I'm happy to share

2:30:10this with you. however I can get it to

2:30:12you. But this was the uh recent in uh

2:30:17December I believe 2025 where we redid

2:30:21or we amended both the SD plan and the

2:30:23EP as it related to the hospital. But

2:30:26this is collectively that SD plan, the

2:30:30EP, and then what Vidia calls a pattern

2:30:34book where you can really kind of see

2:30:36how this is coming together. So again,

2:30:40I'm happy to share that, but as you can

2:30:41see, it is a robust set of documents

2:30:44that include and and carefully is

2:30:47designed to be sustainable.

2:30:50Um, so again, I can try to answer any

2:30:52specific questions that you might have,

2:30:54but it's a lot of information and I'm

2:30:56happy to share that with you. So for

2:30:58your own edification of when we come

2:31:00back before you so you have this

2:31:02information and you can understand what

2:31:04Vidia is and what those you know

2:31:06programs are as it relates to the

2:31:08environment.

2:31:11>> I have questions.

2:31:12>> Sure.

2:31:12>> Um so I was discussing with staff a

2:31:17little bit that um part of my concern is

2:31:20that we're we're adding acreage over

2:31:23time to the development. We've already

2:31:24added over a 100 acres and

2:31:28we haven't changed the RCA or the open

2:31:30space requirements, but staff has

2:31:33explained to me that there's greater

2:31:36open space dedication than was even

2:31:40originally called for as a minimum

2:31:42requirement due to environmental

2:31:44features, but you haven't laid any of

2:31:46that out before us.

2:31:48>> And so, do you have any information?

2:31:50>> I think what she might need to see is

2:31:51the heat map. I don't know if she could

2:31:53see like does the heat map show all the

2:31:56>> the heat map doesn't show that but there

2:31:58is a a buffer exhibit appendix B of the

2:32:02environmental enhancement plan that was

2:32:03what I was talking about with you

2:32:05earlier it identified all the

2:32:06repairarium buffers because they did

2:32:08buffer averaging where there's zone

2:32:09three um and at at that time before

2:32:13additional land was added there was

2:32:15already um repairarium buffers of 183.09

2:32:1909 acres, which well exceeds the 100

2:32:21acres of RCA required by the by the SD

2:32:24plan. And since that time, the

2:32:26additional parcels that have been

2:32:28brought in, some of them also have

2:32:30repairarian buffers that bisect the

2:32:32properties. And so by name, you know, by

2:32:35default, anything that's going to be a

2:32:37perimeter buffer or a repairarian

2:32:39buffer, protective repairing buffer

2:32:40through the site um is going to be RCA

2:32:43as well. Um so

2:32:45>> there's no additional RCA though on top

2:32:47of that. So the only protected areas are

2:32:50just going to be riparian buffer.

2:32:52>> That's that's what's required and that

2:32:54meets their minimum requirement. And

2:32:55that would be the case of pretty much of

2:32:58development like if a development

2:33:00anywhere else were able to meet its

2:33:02minimum RCA requirement with all

2:33:03repairarian buffer or perimeter buffers.

2:33:06That's usually the first two that are

2:33:08used to meet those requirements. So

2:33:10>> what's what's the total acreage of

2:33:11Veridia?

2:33:12>> It's approximately,00

2:33:14acres. I don't have the precise number.

2:33:17And so if it didn't have this SD plan

2:33:19and you had,00 acres in this location,

2:33:23what would the normal percentage of RCA

2:33:26be?

2:33:27>> Well, it's bisected by 540, which makes

2:33:29the math more complicated because our

2:33:31standard is different um north of 540

2:33:34than it is south. So the bulk of the

2:33:36land

2:33:37>> just take like

2:33:38>> it' be 20% so just over 200 um acres.

2:33:42Um, and I do not know, like I said

2:33:44before, there are some additional

2:33:46repairarian buffers and protected areas

2:33:47through parcels that have been added

2:33:49that I don't have um that number handy

2:33:53right here in front of me. So,

2:33:55originally the agreement was like 9 and

2:33:57a half% of the original acreage and that

2:33:59was to create a urban walkable

2:34:01neighborhood and staff pointed out that

2:34:03it was 0%

2:34:05um it's in downtown Apex for example.

2:34:07And so what you've told me that there's

2:34:10over 183 acres to me that that's meeting

2:34:13that 9 and a half%. So I'm I'm satisfied

2:34:16with with that.

2:34:18>> Thank you.

2:34:28>> I agree.

2:34:30>> Other questions

2:34:32>> what you're saying.

2:34:34I I look at the SD plan on this and it's

2:34:37It's like 30,000 feet and you don't get

2:34:39down into the into the thicket of the

2:34:41thing of what really is going to be

2:34:43done. You know, we're going to make

2:34:45sustainable buildings.

2:34:47>> What's sustainable building?

2:34:49>> And I think that

2:34:50>> get down to the is it is it going to be

2:34:53um Energy Star rated or what is there

2:34:56really going to be?

2:34:57>> They've got criteria I've always

2:34:58criteria specified for the uh what I'm

2:35:01sorry. They have criteria specified for

2:35:03both the residential and the

2:35:05non-residential buildings.

2:35:07>> Yeah. And they have waste diversion. I

2:35:08mean, it's actually fairly

2:35:11spelled out in terms of their their EP

2:35:14and what they're doing to meet it. I

2:35:16mean

2:35:19I mean, but it is an SD zoning. So, I

2:35:22mean like like there's not

2:35:25a whole lot that we can really do except

2:35:27for these particular parcels.

2:35:30Um, if we want to put conditions on

2:35:32these parcels, as I understand it,

2:35:34according to staff,

2:35:37>> I'm not sure we can.

2:35:39>> Maybe we can.

2:35:40>> The SD plan, I believe it is it

2:35:42supersedes the UDO basically.

2:35:49>> Put together by a very clever. So I

2:35:52think the way I look at it is when you

2:35:54look at

2:35:56>> what we have as far as the SD plan, the

2:35:57EP and the specific pattern book that

2:36:01the SD plan you you're going from like

2:36:04the general to the specific. So the SD

2:36:06plan is is that general overview and

2:36:10then the EP sort of narrows it down even

2:36:13more and then the pattern but kind of

2:36:15shows you even more specifics. So if you

2:36:18haven't been able to look at all three

2:36:19of the documents collectively like that

2:36:22is that gives you a better idea of how

2:36:25it's developing like what the

2:36:27generalization was what the specifics

2:36:29are being held to at development plan

2:36:32and what the specific pattern of the of

2:36:37the of the Vidia SC plan is hope what

2:36:40they're hoping to look for it to look

2:36:42like. Um and again I'm happy to share uh

2:36:4625 CZ18 which was how it was amended in

2:36:49December of 25 how those documents were

2:36:52amended in December of 25 with everyone.

2:36:55Um and then after after this definitely

2:36:59reach out with any questions that you

2:37:01might have

2:37:03and I'm sure Amanda would Amanda's

2:37:05actually like the brilliant brain behind

2:37:07it all. [laughter]

2:37:09>> Oh and Bruce is coming along. He's done.

2:37:11He's doing a lot in Bidia. Now,

2:37:14>> as these get developed, you'll have to

2:37:16delineate wetlands and show buffers and

2:37:18all of that and dedicate

2:37:21>> Yeah.

2:37:22>> areas.

2:37:25It is interesting though because it's

2:37:27basically the entire upper portion of

2:37:28the one stream is the entire watershed

2:37:31of it and it's currently all forested.

2:37:34Um and you know even the word well the

2:37:37word sustainability it sustainable

2:37:40sustainability is being thrown around

2:37:41but that does not equate to conservation

2:37:43at all

2:37:46but what was agreed to they are meeting

2:37:50and so

2:37:52I mean I will say there's there's other

2:37:55things too um in terms of like green

2:37:58stormwater infrastructure I believe that

2:38:00are called out in the plan and Um

2:38:05there are aspects of the environmental

2:38:06plan which we just got like today I

2:38:09think or yesterday but uh

2:38:13there are a number of things in there

2:38:15which are good things

2:38:17but

2:38:19I feel like um they're meeting the

2:38:21intent of their document whether or not

2:38:23we agree with it or not is is not really

2:38:25up to us. I don't think

2:38:32I mean there's nothing really that we

2:38:34can do in this situation.

2:38:35>> It's unfortunate.

2:38:36>> I just always look at sustainable

2:38:38though.

2:38:40>> Put a big glass thing over the whole

2:38:42thing and let it function within itself.

2:38:45And that certainly isn't what this is by

2:38:48any means.

2:38:50And if if you were looking at an 1100

2:38:52acre project just sort of as it appears

2:38:55now on the ground, I mean some of the we

2:38:59probably wouldn't recommend or even

2:39:01accept some of the things that are

2:39:05in place.

2:39:08But you're right, there's nothing we can

2:39:10do.

2:39:20Are we

2:39:29are we making a motion?

2:39:31>> I'll make a motion to approve the

2:39:33resoning as

2:39:36provided by the applicant.

2:39:40Second.

2:39:43>> Second.

2:39:45All in favor?

2:39:51[clears throat]

2:39:52>> It is what it is.

2:39:53>> Are you going to ask for opposed?

2:39:55>> I'm sorry.

2:39:56>> I

2:39:56>> Any opposed?

2:39:57>> Oh, any opposed?

2:40:07>> What? Um,

2:40:13>> what passes? pass

2:40:16with one of those.

2:40:27Um, does that complete

2:40:31the resulting cases?

2:40:34>> Thank you.

2:40:35>> Thank you.

2:40:35>> Thank you, Mr. Per.

2:40:38All right. Um, moving on to It's been a

2:40:42long day. Uh, announcements and

2:40:44petitions by board members.

2:40:50All right.

2:40:51Do I have a motion to adjourn this?

2:40:57>> So move.

2:40:59>> I'm sorry.

2:40:59>> You asking for a journ.

2:41:02Can we make a plan about Yeah.

2:41:04>> Can Can I have a motion to move

2:41:08>> the um the old business

2:41:12um to

2:41:15next month's meeting uh on September

2:41:1717th?

2:41:21>> What's the old business?

2:41:25>> Suggested zoning conditions discussion.

2:41:32I'll make a motion to move it to next

2:41:34month meeting.

2:41:36>> Second.

2:41:36>> Second. All right. All in favor?

2:41:39>> I

2:41:41>> All right. Vote passes.

2:41:45All right. At this time,

2:41:49>> we got to

2:41:50>> Oh, I'm sorry. [laughter]

2:41:52I'm sorry about that. All right. Do I

2:41:54have a motion to adjourn tonight's

2:41:56meeting?

2:41:58>> Moved.

2:41:59>> All right. Second.

2:42:00>> All in favor?

2:42:01>> I All right. Anything adjourns?

2:42:07>> Just sleep. I just sleep, I guess.