2026-08-11 - Town Council Meeting

17:12this live stream via YouTube. And we'll

17:15move now into the commencement

17:17invocation and pledge of allegiance. But

17:20first, I want to read a diversity

17:22statement. The town of Apex values and

17:24celebrates diversity and inclusion. We

17:26see diversity as a strength that binds

17:28our community together. Inviting members

17:30from different faith communities to

17:32deliver the invocation at the beginning

17:33of our council meeting supports this

17:35unity. Recognizing that that not

17:37everyone practices the same traditions,

17:39we welcome you to have a private moment

17:41of silence or reflection. Tonight, what

17:43I would like to do is offer a word of

17:45prayer and reflection. So, if you would

17:47please join me. Father God, I thank you

17:49for this time. I thank you for allowing

17:52us the opportunity to assemble as one

17:54community. May the spirit of love,

17:56unity, and collaboration lead us

17:59recognizing that we may not agree on

18:02everything, but at the end of the day,

18:03we're still one community, and you have

18:05blessed this community for many years.

18:08And may we continue to be guided by the

18:11principles again of love, unity, and

18:13purpose. We give you honor and glory for

18:16it. It's in Jesus name I pray. Amen.

18:19>> All right. If you would join us, if

18:20you're able, please stand for the pledge

18:22of allegiance.

18:29I pledge allegiance to the flag of the

18:31United States of America and to the

18:34republic for which it nation stands. One

18:36nation under God, indivisible, with

18:39liberty and justice for all.

18:45>> All right. Thank you so much. Um, for

18:48reflection, I just want to

18:49[clears throat] say this. I know we're

18:50all here for different things and we

18:51appreciate you coming out, but I just

18:53want to make one clear statement. It's

18:55going to be all right. [laughter]

18:57It it'll be fine. That's what we do in

18:59Apex. Everything will come together. But

19:01I want to recognize some former town

19:04council members as we look at Apex today

19:06in 2026.

19:09How do we get here? The success of

19:11leadership. We have some strong leaders

19:13that came before all of us that's seated

19:15up here this evening. I want to

19:17recognize the following people. Michael

19:18Jones, Doug Mackis, Christine Hilt, Carl

19:21Hilton, Donald Grimes, and Wes Moyer for

19:24decades of experience for leading this

19:26town. So, if you would please stand and

19:27be recognized. [applause]

19:38Also would like to thank um as always uh

19:41our Apex Police Department for being

19:43here. Officer Sher, thank you for

19:44providing security tonight. So, we'll

19:46move now into the announcements and

19:49petitions by the governing body. We'll

19:51start with Mayor Pro Tim.

19:52>> No comments, mayor.

19:53>> All right. No comments. All right. Move

19:54now to council member Gray.

19:56>> I just want to make uh one brief uh

19:58comment. I think it's important for uh

20:01just a moment of reflection. Um I know

20:03that we didn't have uh meetings uh we

20:05did not have regular meetings in July,

20:09but there were plenty of other meetings

20:10and things that we were doing during the

20:12course of July. So calling it a vacation

20:14I think is a huge misnomer. But I do

20:16think it's important to note that uh you

20:19know today we kind of kick off the

20:20second half of the year. Um I know we're

20:22all invigorated and ready and excited

20:24and eager to continue the business of

20:26Apex and we're excited about a lot of

20:28the things that's been happening and

20:29we're more excited about the things that

20:31are going to be happening going forward.

20:33So that's all I have.

20:34>> Thank you so much. Councilman Council

20:36Member Ziggman.

20:37>> Uh just want to say welcome to

20:38everybody. Uh yes, we had a little uh

20:41break from meetings over the uh over the

20:42July month, but uh good to see everybody

20:45back in these chambers in force. So,

20:47welcome everybody. Um good to see my

20:49colleagues on the on the day here, too.

20:51Um it wasn't the same without you. So,

20:54other than that, no comments.

20:56>> Thank you, Councilman. All right,

20:57Council Member Moot. Um, I just want to

21:01say um I wish everyone is having a good

21:05summer and I want to express my

21:08gratitude to our public safety members,

21:12our police officers, our firefighters

21:15and everyone uh and first responders,

21:19everyone who is out there every day risk

21:23their lives to protect our community,

21:26protect our residents, no matter matter

21:29how bad the weather is for that I'm

21:32deeply grateful. Thank you. That's my

21:36[applause]

21:39>> All right. Thank you, Council Member

21:40Moo. Council member Ree.

21:42>> Yeah. Thank you, Mayor. I want to say uh

21:44I want to dedicate my time to honoring

21:47Lynn Council who many may remember um in

21:51the 1950s was um uh endured an attempted

21:55hanging um and uh want to uh recognize

22:00that former police chief John Lety uh

22:03installed a bench honoring Mr. Council

22:06who passed away um a few days ago at the

22:09age of 93 years old. Um, and just want

22:11to say that uh may his memory be a

22:13blessing to all and especially his

22:15family. And the second thing I wanted to

22:17say was it's so great to see a packed

22:19house and so many people engaged in

22:21local government. Um, and whether uh you

22:24like things that are going on or not,

22:26just thank you for being here and thank

22:28you for contributing.

22:29>> Thank you, mayor.

22:30>> Thank you for that for recognizing Mr.

22:31Council. For sure. All right. I don't

22:33have anything to offer tonight. We'll

22:34move to adoption of the meeting agenda.

22:36Are there any recommended changes before

22:38approving the agenda

22:39>> under consent? We'll have some changes.

22:41>> Okay. Very well. [clears throat]

22:42>> Move to adopt.

22:44>> Move to motion. Second

22:46>> discussion. All in favor indicate by

22:48saying I.

22:49>> Oppos? No. All right. Motion carries.

22:51Move now to consent agenda. Mr. Clerk,

22:53recommended changes.

22:54>> Yes, we have two recommended changes. Uh

22:57consent item number four is the

22:59[clears throat] agreement multi-year

23:00Axon for air drone sense program and

23:02interview interview room camera system

23:05through June 30th 2030 deferring it to

23:08the public safety council committee and

23:10then clarifying the motion for consent

23:12item number 23 and I it should read as

23:15follows. Motion to approve revisions to

23:18article 7, holidays and leaves of

23:21absence section 18, family and medical

23:23leave of the town of Apex personnel

23:25policy. and B motion to delete article

23:29five conditions of employment section 10

23:32employment of relatives of the town's

23:34personnel policy and replace with a new

23:37article 5 conditions of employment

23:39section 10 nepotism and employment of

23:42relatives and authorize town staff to

23:45format and renumber as consistent with

23:47the existing personnel policy.

23:51>> All righty. Thank you so much. All

23:53right, with those recommended changes,

23:54is there a motion? Motion to approve.

23:57>> Motion Zman second.

23:58>> May prom.

24:00>> All right. Discussion. Hearing none. All

24:02in favor say I. I.

24:03>> Oppos. No. Motion carries.

24:05>> All right. We'll move now to

24:09town manager report. Mr. Bossburg.

24:12>> Good evening, mayor and council. It's uh

24:14great to be back. Had to, like you said,

24:17it wasn't a break. We got quite a bit

24:18done over the month of July, but

24:20hopefully everybody's ready to go. I did

24:22want to take a second to introduce Mera

24:25Nelson. She's a rising junior at

24:27Virginia Tech. She's an Apex resident.

24:29Uh she did an internship this summer at

24:31the General Assembly and then uh did

24:33some shadowing in local government. And

24:35so we invited her to a meeting. I told

24:37her she picked pretty doozy of a meeting

24:39to attend. And I told her don't feel

24:41obligated to stay for the entire

24:43meeting. Now

24:43>> she got a whole meeting.

24:45>> She may but she may dip out. So but

24:48thank you for being here. [applause]

24:54All right, I have a few updates. Uh, I'm

24:56going to save some of the capital items.

24:58You have a work session on the

25:0118th, I think there's one, and you have

25:02one this week as well. Uh, this week

25:04though, is the one where parks and recck

25:05will be giving some updates on a lot of

25:07their capital projects. So, I will save

25:09those for that meeting, but have a few

25:11other updates. On our meter update, we

25:14have replaced 26,500

25:17of our electric meters. uh that

25:19represents about 80% completion. So that

25:21project continues to uh get towards

25:24completion. Originally it was projected

25:26for fall, so we're still on track for a

25:28fall completion. Uh then getting into uh

25:33utility billing collections and

25:34payments. So some data here I'm going to

25:37throw at you. Uh we've got payment plans

25:40that are starting to uh be enacted. So

25:42the numbers I'm going to give you right

25:44now we have passed due and this does not

25:46include what's under payment plan. So,

25:47I'll give you that number separate. We

25:49are looking at $4.3 million in past due

25:53balances

25:54and that's an estimate or a rough uh

25:57number. It's 4.309. Uh then there's 1.2

26:01million that is that are under payment

26:03plans. So, when you put that together,

26:05you're looking at roughly 5.2 uh 5.5

26:07million. Uh so 4.3 is outstanding that

26:10is not under a payment plan. 1.2 is

26:13represented under a payment plan. If you

26:16recall when we started, we were over $6

26:17million. So that number is continuing to

26:20come down. It's roughly a little over

26:22half a million down from that peak. So

26:24we anticipate more payment plans will be

26:27put in place and that number will

26:28continue to come down. Uh we are

26:30currently looking at around 1,091

26:35customers that would hit a modified um

26:40threshold of $1,000 for cutoff. Uh

26:43there's been some play in that number

26:44because of the the nature of the

26:46prolonged nature of some of the um

26:48payment that haven't been made. Uh

26:51that's a temporary threshold of $1,000

26:53as opposed to $500 which was our

26:55traditional limit. Um so right now, 191

26:58customers are at $1,000 or above and

27:02then would be subject to potential

27:03disconnect. Uh based on our payment

27:06plans, I mentioned the number, we have

27:08506

27:10payment plans approved. Uh the value

27:12again is around $1.2 million in those

27:16payment plans and uh we have seen a few

27:20come in and set up payment plans. So

27:21this is an unfortunate occurrence where

27:23we have 39 plans that we had to void

27:26already. Uh some of those were they

27:27moved away disconnected. Uh but some of

27:29them were they enacted a payment plan

27:31and then didn't follow through with

27:33making payments on that payment plan. Uh

27:35so we have seen 39 plans that we had to

27:38suspend because of not making proper

27:40payments.

27:41We did on our last cycle uh bills which

27:45represent cycle one because we resumed

27:48standard billing procedures, we did

27:49institute late fees on those bills. Um

27:52so you'll start to see those uh roll out

27:55and um we anticipate as we work through

27:59to educate on what cuto offs look like.

28:02We're putting late notices together.

28:05We're putting push on payment plans and

28:07then of course last resort would be

28:09looking at cuto offs. Uh we believe

28:10we're somewhere and Sean jump in if I'm

28:12wrong on this number. We're probably

28:14four to six weeks before we'd be looking

28:16at our first cut offs. Uh and there are

28:18other policies that are at play that

28:21will come to you on the 18th at a work

28:23session. We have a lot of our utility

28:24billing policies uh which I've talked to

28:28you individually, some of you

28:29individually about some policy tweaks

28:31related to um extreme weather

28:33conditions. So all of that we will bring

28:35on the work session for the 18th to look

28:37at policies. Um there is some language I

28:40noticed. Um also Duke is nearing this.

28:42We've had a pretty hot summer and this

28:44week is projected to be pretty warm as

28:46well. Uh so recognizing that as we

28:49experience heat and people's air

28:50conditioning is running, being mindful

28:53that bills are probably going to climb

28:54with that. Uh so just putting it out

28:56there. Duke's doing an educational

28:58campaign on the extreme weather and how

29:00it's causing higher bills. Uh so just

29:02want to put out awareness that we do

29:04anticipate some higher bills because it

29:06has been an a hot summer. I don't know

29:08if unusual is the word anymore, but it's

29:10been a hot summer and people have been

29:11using air conditioning as we all have.

29:13So, that's it from a utility billing

29:17perspective. More changes in the policy,

29:19like I said, will come to the work

29:20session on the 18th. Any questions on

29:23that before I move to other items?

29:27Okay. All right. Couple updates. I'm

29:29going to go through these relatively

29:30quick. The Apex uh senior center will be

29:32closed from August 18th to September

29:357th. that is for our floor um renovation

29:39there and we had toyed with the idea of

29:42having it partially opened but because

29:43of the process and um different odors

29:46with the floor process we just got it

29:48it's best to shut it down get the work

29:49done and move forward. Our seniors have

29:51been very gracious on this uh because

29:54all activities will be suspended in the

29:56facility during that time. Uh so I did

29:58interact with a few seniors at my last

30:00um ask me anything event and they were

30:02excited about the investment we're

30:04making into the facility. So, so far the

30:06feedback's been been great. Everyone's a

30:08little disappointed you don't have those

30:09activities, but uh they're

30:10understanding. So, that's awesome.

30:12Couple of capital updates. The Salem

30:14Streetscaping project during the month

30:16of July, we switched over to phase two,

30:18which is the other side of the roadway.

30:20Uh we're rocking and rolling on that.

30:22You should start to see uh some activity

30:24where, of course, anytime we open up the

30:26road, there could be surprises. Uh so,

30:28we've had some utility items that were

30:30in the roadway that we opened up that

30:32were not where they were supposed to be.

30:34I'll say. So, we're working through uh

30:36that utility issue and how we kind of

30:38work around, but very soon we hope to

30:40see the soil boxes going in the light

30:42pole foundations. So, you'll start to

30:45see that work continue on the other side

30:47of the roadway. We

30:50are shift next to the Peakway Southwest

30:53Connector project. This is the one that

30:56bridges over South Salem Street and the

30:58CSX rail line. Uh this project continues

31:01to trend well and we are anticipating a

31:04fall opening of this project. Uh which

31:07depending on what timeline you're

31:08looking at, this is as much as a year

31:10ahead of schedule. Minimum eight months

31:12but up to a year depending on what

31:14deadline you were looking at. So that

31:15project is trending well. Knock on wood.

31:18Of course all of these are subject to if

31:20we get any extreme weather then that

31:22could delay us a little bit. But right

31:23now we're looking at a fall opening of

31:25the Peakway connector.

31:27Tonstl house talked briefly on this.

31:30There are a couple components. So

31:32there's the site work that's happening

31:33at that location and then there's also

31:35the renovation of the house itself. The

31:37work on the house is supposed to be done

31:40uh somewhere in the neighborhood of

31:42October. So a couple months looking at

31:44the house piece. Uh and then the site

31:46work should wrap in January. Uh so that

31:49puts a final completion of the total

31:52site work and housework to be probably

31:54beginning of February at this point. So,

31:56that project is moving along as well.

31:59We've got the [clears throat and cough]

32:01affordable housing project on South U

32:03Street. If you'll recall, that's the

32:04acreage that we own um off street that's

32:07planned for some kind of affordable

32:09housing project. It is currently in the

32:11stage of seeking community input. So, we

32:14have two community input sessions coming

32:16up in the next week. Uh the first one is

32:19on August 15th which is a Saturday that

32:21will be at the senior center and the

32:24second is on August 19th at the Halley

32:26Cultural Arts Center. So two input

32:28sessions on that. More information

32:30available on our website for those. I

32:32did there's been a lot of talk about

32:34pecards. So uh for transparency from

32:36town of Apex I wanted to mention um our

32:39numbers. You've seen some reports on

32:41Car's numbers and some of the other

32:43jurisdictions. uh we have 124

32:46individuals with town pecards that

32:48represents about 16% of our workforce.

32:50[snorts]

32:50Uh so the average around the state is is

32:53around 16%. So we're on average uh some

32:56of our neighbors have reported that

32:57number that's much higher than that but

32:59we are at 16%.

33:01The spend because that has also been

33:03discussed uh the town's PECARD spend

33:06totals for fiscal year 2026 it was $2.7

33:09million. Uh, I think there was another

33:11number thrown out in another

33:12jurisdiction that was significantly

33:14higher than that. Um, but we we believe

33:162.7 million is reasonable and wanted to

33:20just mention it real quick. Uh, that

33:22there's a rebate program that's

33:23associated with our PC cards. Uh, so if

33:26we had the option of I'm putting

33:28$100,000 on a purchase order or $100,000

33:31on a PC card, I get nothing in return in

33:33terms of monetary on the purchase order,

33:35but on the PC card, we get a 5% or

33:38there's a percentage rebate. It may

33:39vary, but it's just like if you have

33:41your bank card and you get cash back on

33:43that. So, there is an incentive with

33:44moving things onto a PC card to get that

33:47cash back return. Uh, so for what that's

33:50worth, but we're we want to be

33:51transparent with our numbers and get

33:52those out there. All right, a few events

33:55and then I've got maybe a couple items

33:57and then I'll move move on. We've got

34:00our passports in the park program that's

34:03going through August 17th. That's the

34:05program where you can visit eight

34:06featured parks. You solve a riddle or a

34:09puzzle at each of those parks. Once you

34:10solve it, you come back to the John and

34:12um and Brown Center and they give you a

34:14stamp and your passport and then there

34:15are prizes if you complete your um

34:18passport and you turn that in then you

34:19can get prizes. We also have a local

34:23spot passport program which is

34:25supportive of our downtown um the local

34:27spot which is our social district and

34:29that passport is available at any of the

34:32locations that participate in the uh

34:34local spot sip stop. Uh you can also get

34:37it at the depot on Salem and it's kind

34:40of works the same way. You go around to

34:41the businesses that have um that

34:43participate in the social district and

34:45you can get uh signatures on that

34:47passport and then take it back to the

34:49depot and enter it for a prize drawing

34:51in the end. Uh that's you don't even

34:53have to purchase at those businesses

34:55although we would appreciate purchasing

34:57and supporting those local businesses. U

34:59but you can just visit them and they can

35:01sign off on that passport program. I

35:04won't go through. There are a ton of

35:05events. I encourage you to check our

35:07website. We've got rhythm and reels

35:08concert coming up. There's uh on the

35:10steps concert. There's all kinds of

35:12activities, concerts, movies coming up.

35:14Please check our parks and wreck website

35:16to get all the dates and get the

35:18participation. Uh we've got a great uh

35:20Southeast Pollinator Census which is

35:22happening Friday, August 21st. We've got

35:24Neon Nights Silent Disco Friday, October

35:2728th from 6:00 to 8 at the Howie

35:29Cultural Arts Center. So, a lot of good

35:32activities that are going on as we

35:34celebrate kind of the the end of summer

35:36and approach back to school. Uh capital

35:39projects, I went through most of those.

35:40You'll get an update on the Pleasant

35:42Park baseball fields when Parks and W

35:44covers that. Uh we'll talk a little bit

35:46about our public safety renovations uh

35:49in a moment in the presentation. We've

35:51got a renovation planned in this

35:53building on the first floor. Uh when you

35:55come in the building on the lefthand

35:57side, it's where finance used to be

35:58located. That will be the new location

36:00of HR, but that renovation will begin on

36:03August 17th. That renovation will start.

36:07We've got our Town of Apex wayfinding

36:09signage program that will launch. Uh

36:12it's in the fabrication stage now. Uh

36:14and that should work over there two

36:16phases to that. So, we'll do some of

36:18that wayfinding this year and a little

36:19bit in 2027.

36:22Uh and then the stage that you'll recall

36:25was partially funded uh through our

36:27capital plan and then partially funded

36:29by a grant from the county that uh

36:32architect has been selected for the

36:34stage here on town hall property and so

36:36that project will be kicking off

36:37shortly. So a lot of projects happening

36:40and you'll hear even more at the uh work

36:42session. With that that's the update and

36:45I have two items. Uh if you're ready I

36:47can keep going and proceed to those

36:49>> please. Yep. Okay. And and before you do

36:50that, I just want to make it known. Um I

36:52see we got some floor seating. You're

36:54welcome to stay in here, but we do have

36:56overflow seating on the third floor.

36:58There's staff out there that can direct

36:59you accordingly. So um if you want to be

37:01more comfortable, we [clears throat] do

37:03have seating on the third floor.

37:04>> Okay.

37:05>> Okay. Go ahead.

37:06>> All right. I'm going to hit the first

37:08item um after updates which relates to

37:10fire station number one and the proposed

37:12market analysis and feasibility study. I

37:14am going to invite Tim Herman, our fire

37:16chief, who is here in the maze. Yes. and

37:19also uh Joanna Helms, our economic

37:21development director. You want to come

37:23up now or you can wait till it's up to

37:25you. Do you want Tim to do his piece

37:26first? Okay, Chief, you'll do your

37:28presentation first and then Joanna will

37:29come up and uh then we'll have questions

37:32from council.

37:33>> All right, manager Vossberg. Good

37:36evening, Mayor Gilbert and council, town

37:38staff, and certainly all the citizens

37:40here tonight uh to talk about this

37:42important topic of fire [clears throat]

37:44station one. Uh so tonight's meeting

37:47included a budget amendment request

37:50within the consent agenda section

37:53related to a market and feasibility

37:55study for fire station 1. In full

37:57transparency based on the recent

37:59attention to fire station 1's property

38:02downtown, we suggested to remove it from

38:05the consent agenda and to uh give an

38:08update uh to give you an option to ask

38:11questions and talk about it and go over

38:14timelines. So, uh, myself and Joanna

38:17Helms, our economic development

38:18director, uh, will tag team this

38:21presentation and hopefully provide some

38:23insight and some information to where

38:25we're at. So, that item has now been

38:27moved to the regular meeting agenda,

38:29which is later in the meeting.

38:31[clears throat]

38:33So, I'm going to go through a couple

38:34slides here. Uh, so the agenda for our

38:37presentation of this, we're going to

38:39update you on plans and timelines

38:41related to station one. I'm going to go

38:43over a brief overview of some emergency

38:46operations related to stations one and

38:48three and then Joanna Helms will come up

38:50and talk about the market and

38:52feasibility study.

38:57[clears throat] So this screenshot right

38:58here on this slide is a web page created

39:01recently on our website. Um and this web

39:04page was created uh to provide

39:07information and timelines. And you can

39:09get to that website by going to

39:10apexnc.org.

39:12org/downfirestation.

39:15This page provides a timeline that

39:17starts back in September 2019 through

39:21tonight's meeting as it relates to

39:23decisions made that have brought us to

39:25this point. It includes links to council

39:28presentations, studies, information, and

39:32plans that have shaped these decisions.

39:35As part of the adopted downtown master

39:38plan in 2019, the decision was made to

39:41re reimagine the fire station one site

39:44as a new civic or mixeduse development.

39:48Fast forward from 2019 to February 2024,

39:52I presented a plan to council that

39:54recommended not rebuilding a fire

39:57station as part of the new building, but

39:59to maintain the fire department presence

40:02in a meaningful way that would number

40:04one honor the history, the legacy of the

40:07Apex Fire Department, past, present, and

40:10future. and number two, to ensure our

40:13presence and community interaction in

40:16our downtown space was not lost but

40:18enhanced.

40:20July 1, 2025, the adopted budget

40:23included funds to design fire station

40:263's renovation and addition to support

40:30moving emergency operations from station

40:32one to station 3 on Hunter Street.

40:35July 1, 2026. The adopted budget

40:38provided construction funding for the

40:40fire station 3 renovation and addition

40:43and the design process is wrapping up in

40:46the next 60 days.

40:53Before we dive any deeper, I think it's

40:55important for everyone to understand a

40:57few things that played a role in the

40:59decisions made.

41:01Why was the decision made to forego the

41:04station on Salem Street as an operating

41:06fire station? This information was was

41:09shared in great detail during multiple

41:12council work sessions

41:13[cough and clears throat]

41:14and data from both internal and

41:16third-party studies were used to make

41:19these this important pivot. It comes

41:21down to several factors and I want to

41:24share a few of them with you tonight.

41:26This next slide is a map of our fire

41:28district. And anytime I have an

41:30opportunity to talk about our fire

41:32department to the public, I I love

41:34looking at a slide like this because it

41:36tells a big story about a lot of

41:38different things. It shows our entire

41:40fire district, 60 square miles. We

41:43protect both the city limits of Apex and

41:45also a large area of unincorporated

41:47areas within the county. And when I'm

41:50teaching or talking to community members

41:52and we look at this map, most recently

41:54at the Peak Academy, we're able to talk

41:57about things of how do we locate where

42:00the next fire station will go, what goes

42:02into that decision. And I love talking

42:04about that because it's a dozen data

42:06points that we look at before we plant

42:08roots and build a fire station. Uh just

42:11for an example, when looking at this

42:13map, you can see the points on there are

42:15fire stations, but we're we're currently

42:17planning our next new fire station on

42:19the west side. So looking at this map,

42:21we can talk about different things of

42:22looking at a gap and looking talking

42:25about response times and and why we need

42:27to put a fire station there. But nine

42:29times out of 10, while I'm talking about

42:31this, somebody will ask the question,

42:32well, why is stations one and three so

42:35close together? And I like to talk about

42:38the history and why that occurred. And I

42:40want to speak about that tonight. I

42:42think a lot of you, the council,

42:43understand that because we've had

42:44multiple meetings about that. And I'm

42:46sure several folks, I know for a fact

42:48behind me know the answer as well. But I

42:50just want to make sure everyone hears,

42:52you know, how that decision was made to

42:55put two fire stations 7/10en of a mile

42:57apart. So in the early 2000s, the town

43:00of Apex contracted with the volunteer

43:02fire department to provide fire

43:04protection. But a conversation was had

43:06for some reason and I don't know why but

43:08the town was going to start their own

43:10fire department. So they picked out this

43:12land and they started to build the

43:14station on Hunter Street. So it was

43:16going to be two separate fire

43:18departments. The town of Apex and the

43:20Apex Volunteer Fire Department. Before

43:23the station opened, I think they made a

43:26great decision and that was to become

43:27one and merge together and not be two

43:30separate entities. And that occurred. So

43:32in 2002 they merged. They became one

43:36fire department, the town of Apex, and

43:38they took on all the volunteer

43:39firefighters, all the assets. However,

43:42they were left with two facilities 7/10

43:44of a mile apart. And we've been

43:47operating that way ever since 2002. So

43:50that gives a little bit of history and

43:52background. This is not an ideal fire

43:55station distribution model. And I want

43:59to talk about that. I've got a slide

44:00here in a moment that gets in the weeds

44:02a little bit about why this decision was

44:05made. But this next slide talks about a

44:08couple things. It's not optimal to have

44:09a fire station that close together. Now,

44:12you've got to understand one thing. The

44:14these two stations operate as one fire

44:17station under two roofs, two separate

44:20buildings. It's a two company station.

44:22There's a fire engine downtown, and a

44:24fire engine is what carries water and

44:26puts out fire. At station 3, there is

44:28not a fire engine. There is a rescue

44:31technical rescue apparatus that is used

44:33to respond to all different types of

44:35calls, but it doesn't suppress fire. So,

44:38when we look back at that district,

44:40that's one fire district protected by

44:42that one engine. So, it's really one

44:45station under two roofs.

44:49The picture to the right is an aerial

44:51picture of of fire station one.

44:54um it is not an ideal location. So we're

44:57stuck here to make a decision. Are we

44:58going to maintain two separate fire

45:01stations in the same district at this

45:03current model and that is a very tough

45:06place to operate in today's time. Apex

45:08is growing, our fire department is

45:10growing and if we have to make a

45:12decision of where renovations need to

45:14occur and where we would rather operate

45:18from, it would be the Hunter Street

45:19location. However, it's very important

45:22that we maintain that presence down

45:24there. And I spent multiple meetings in

45:26front of you, multiple work sessions

45:28talking about the importance of that

45:30presence that we do not leave downtown.

45:33But what does that look like in today's

45:35time? And we went over that.

45:39So, I want to address some current

45:42and some current needs and some growing

45:44needs for AFD. We have surpassed the

45:48life of of station one and we have

45:50outgrown fire station 3 and Hunter

45:53Street has the space to address those

45:55needs. It sits on five acres. I do want

45:58to make one correction to bullet point

45:59number three there. It talks about that

46:02plan facility will house emergency

46:03operations and also administration. I

46:06want to be very transparent and clear.

46:07This new station three does not include

46:10administration. That's a separate

46:12building. So, I didn't want to mislead

46:13anybody with that. But that station will

46:15house emergency operations and

46:17logistics. Creating a central hub to

46:20support our daily operations is what we

46:23need today.

46:25We have certainly outgrown both stations

46:27as it relates to resource space,

46:30personnel space, and open space. Both

46:32fire station 1 and three are in major

46:34need of renovations and upgrades to

46:37ensure our current staff have the space

46:39that they need to do their jobs and more

46:42importantly upgrades that are in modern

46:44fire stations to help address physical

46:47and mental health. Initiatives to

46:50prevent cancer and improve sleep habits

46:53while on duty 24 hours a day or more.

46:55This would be things we see in our newer

46:57fire stations like station six that we

46:59just recently opened. only storing fire

47:02apparatus and equipment in the bay with

47:05clean lobbies in between the bay and the

47:07living quarters. Dedicated decon areas

47:10with separate showers, laundry

47:12facilities for firefighting gear and

47:14uniforms. Dedicated storage for PPE and

47:17separate ventilation. Ample and separate

47:20bedrooms with improved station alerting

47:22methods to enhance healthier sleep

47:24habits and overall improved living

47:27quarters.

47:31This is a rendering that most of you

47:33have seen. It's I think it's been on our

47:34social media accounts uh of Hunter

47:37Street, what that renovation and

47:39addition looks like. Again, we're are 60

47:42days from wrapping up that design. Uh

47:45and then we're we're in the middle of

47:46the design for the office building

47:48behind this station with a goal to do

47:50both of these projects at the same time.

47:54We have an opportunity to make a good

47:57choice related to fire station locations

48:00and for us as a town to maintain or

48:02rebuild again 7/10en of a mile from

48:06another fire station is not a good plan

48:08or best practice. Merging the stations

48:11not only makes operational sense, but it

48:14also is more financially responsible.

48:21>> [clears throat]

48:24>> Let's talk briefly about emergency

48:27operations. I've already talked about

48:28this model of one station under two

48:31roofs. I've talked about the resources

48:33at each station, the engine versus the

48:35rescue. Um, so there's been some talk

48:38about response times. Uh, in full

48:40transparency, anytime you move any

48:42resource, there's going to be a shift in

48:44some response times. We're fortunate

48:46though that this district that we cover,

48:48we're meeting our response time goals

48:50and benchmarks. But again, you got to

48:52remember this is a fire engine versus a

48:54rescue truck. So that fire engine at

48:56station one at times goes right by

48:58station three heading to a fire where

49:00they're not going to it depending on

49:01what it is. So we can go both ways.

49:04Response times are going to improve once

49:06we move it to certain areas, but I can

49:08assure you the overall district is well

49:11covered with our response time goals.

49:13And we talk a lot about stations one and

49:16three. One and three. But this shift of

49:18the engine to station three actually

49:20improves our overall distribution. It

49:22improves the utilization of station 4.

49:25Station 4 and station one are currently

49:282.4 miles apart. This move makes them 3

49:31miles apart, which is more ideal. Uh so

49:33we we're better utilizing station 4. It

49:36also enhances station five a little bit.

49:38So looking back at the overall map and

49:40this shift of the fire engine to Hunter

49:42Street actually improves our overall

49:45distribution model.

49:49Um I want to talk about ISO and

49:51accreditation model real quick. And the

49:53reason I want to talk about that are

49:55those three bullet points right there.

49:57[clears throat] These are two

49:58associations that we are associated with

50:02and get information from that we have to

50:04be graded by ISO. And the last time I

50:06stood at this podium, it was a

50:08presentation to you uh of renewing our

50:11ISO 1, reducing our ISO grade in the

50:14county from two to a one. And all this

50:17is related to datainformed decisions,

50:20best practices, and a third-party

50:22review. Um

50:26like I said, we're a class one fire

50:27department and achieving such a rating

50:30is not by chance. It comes with proper

50:32planning, data informed decisions, and

50:35proper alignment with our emergency

50:36response model. The plan to merge

50:39stations one and three was vetted with

50:41the North Carolina Office of State Fire

50:42Marshals during our last inspection to

50:45ensure zero impact to our grade.

50:48Additionally, we have been going through

50:49the fire service accreditation model for

50:52the past three years, preparing to

50:55become an accredited fire department. I

50:58don't want to jinx anything and I'll

50:59knock on wood, but next Thursday, uh,

51:01members of my team and I will stand

51:03before the Fire Service International

51:06Board of Commissioners. There's 13 of

51:08them, uh, next Thursday at 8:30 in the

51:10morning. And that's where they will vote

51:12on us next week to become an accredited

51:14fire department. And I have no doubt we

51:15will achieve that. So, why do I bring

51:18this up? Uh, why am I talking about

51:20this? This model is rooted deep in risk

51:23assessments, response models, and the in

51:26the making of best decisions for our

51:28community. Following this best practice

51:31model assures you that we're making the

51:33best decisions for our community.

51:36Lastly, you see a bullet point there for

51:38station location studies. We have an

51:40amazing staff, uh, two of them are

51:42sitting over here, that can run station

51:44models and GIS models and look at where

51:47look at data and and analyze data. uh

51:50and we do that in house. However, we

51:52want to be checked as well. So, we just

51:54recently contracted for a station

51:56location study, a third-party study. I

51:59presented that to you in May of 2025.

52:02And the first recommendation was to move

52:04the engine from station one to station

52:06three on Hunter Street.

52:10Final thoughts and next steps. We we

52:13must continually adapt to our

52:15everchanging

52:17needs and environment. We've got to meet

52:19the service demands and ensure that our

52:22facilities remain modern, efficient, and

52:24equipped to support the needs of our

52:26staff and the community we serve. Second

52:29bullet, we are committed strongly of

52:31honoring the history and preserving our

52:34legacy. And I I spoke on that multiple

52:37times and Joanne is fixing to come up

52:39here and go over a couple slides, but it

52:41is very important to me as your fire

52:43chief. It is very important that we

52:46maintain presence downtown. And I firmly

52:48believe we can do that even better than

52:50we do it today. But the emergency

52:53operations, the plans that have already

52:55been put in place, the budgets that have

52:57been passed, it is it is absolutely what

53:00we need to do to come out of downtown as

53:02emergency response model. But let's work

53:05together uh with this group behind me.

53:07And again, Joanna's going to talk about

53:09this firm and I'm going to turn it over

53:10to her to her in just a moment. But one

53:13thing that that we had nine, I believe,

53:15folks uh put in for this uh this firm to

53:18do this feasibility and market study.

53:20And what drew us to the firm that we've

53:23selected is their emphasis on community

53:26input. They did their homework and they

53:29know Apex. They know the Apex Volunteer

53:32Fire Department. They mentioned the fire

53:33bells. They mentioned the spaghetti

53:35dinners that they used to have to raise

53:37money for the explorers. And that's

53:38actually one of their ideas is to hold a

53:40spaghetti dinner, invite this crowd in,

53:43and let's talk about this. Full

53:45transparency, we are open to

53:47suggestions. We want to make this the

53:49very best it could be downtown,

53:51[clears throat] and we can do that with

53:52the help uh of this group that's here to

53:55support that today. So, with that, I'm

53:57going to call Joanna up to go over her

53:59slides that's related to this

54:00feasibility and market study.

54:03>> Thank you, Chief. Yes, sir. Presentation

54:10Good evening, mayor and town council

54:11members. Um, as chief said, I'm going to

54:14present to you just a high level

54:15overview of the downtown site

54:17redevelopment, market analysis, and

54:19feasibility study for fire station

54:21number one.

54:24First, so we can understand um and all

54:26be on the same page for the scope of

54:28work. The scope of work states it will

54:30elevate the design vision for this

54:32downtown site, to educate the community

54:36about its economic impacts, to celebrate

54:39the fire department's long and

54:41meaningful history, and to create

54:43engaging opportunities for residents to

54:46participate in shaping the future of the

54:48site.

54:50So, how are we going to do that?

54:53One part of the study will be a very

54:56robust public engagement plan. Um

55:02this is

55:06um so it will have multiple ways we're

55:09going to do that. It will have I'm just

55:10going to go back to my notes. Sorry.

55:15There will be meetings and workshops.

55:18There will be interactive events. There

55:20will be strategy sessions. all for the

55:22purpose of bringing in the public,

55:23bringing in the community, bringing in

55:25the residents to let their voices be

55:26heard. They'll do that in a variety of

55:28places. There'll be um different times

55:30of the day, different days of the week.

55:32Um all in an effort again to make sure

55:34that we have as many folks that can and

55:37want to participate let their voices be

55:38heard. After all that public engagement

55:41um is going on, there will be a review

55:43and an evaluation of all that

55:45information, all that research gathered

55:47from the public.

55:51Then there'll be some next steps.

55:54Some of the next steps include the

55:56market analysis piece and the

55:57feasibility piece. We need to make sure

55:59that we understand what the market can

56:01support today and also for the future.

56:03And we need to see how that can be

56:05feasible. Part of it will also include

56:07um an analysis of a proposed P3, a

56:11public private partnership for this site

56:13and for this redevelopment. So that's

56:15going to be looked into very heavily as

56:17well. Uh so after all the public

56:20engagement happens after all the

56:22research is done there will be some

56:24preliminary recommendations that that

56:25come out of that research in that

56:27process and that'll be about a 9 to 10

56:29month process. There'll be a draft

56:31action plan that is proposed and then

56:34there'll be a public presentation that

56:36will be a presentation to you and a

56:37public forum where you can engage and

56:39ask questions and see um what that

56:42public presentation uh looks like after

56:44all the research um and all the public

56:46input. And then based upon that

56:48conversation back and forth with you, um

56:51there'll be our final report. That final

56:52report will be be yours. That will be

56:54property of the town of Apex, but it'll

56:56be also available to the public. And um

56:59then you can do with that what you wish

57:01uh for the future.

57:04And finally, in summary, I did just want

57:07to remind you about our vision for

57:08vibrancy brochure. This is a brochure

57:11that was um done as a um synopsis of the

57:15much larger, much more lengthier

57:17downtown master plan and parking study

57:20and it just uh captured some key goals

57:22and some key ideas from the public

57:24input. Um so just want to remind you

57:27that um one of the top 10 projects in

57:29the vision for vibrancy was to

57:31reinvision the fire station as a civic

57:33and mixeduse development. Chief alluded

57:35to that a minute ago. And then also

57:37there was a key goal and that was to

57:38honor the history of downtown with a

57:40re-imagined fire station on Salem

57:42Street.

57:44That is my report. I'm happy to answer

57:46any questions.

57:46>> All right. Thank you so much. Any

57:48questions for Miss H?

57:50>> Uh just one. I think I heard you say

57:52that the public engagement part of the

57:54study is 9 to 10 months long.

57:56>> The whole study is 9 to 10 months and

57:58there will be public engagement

57:59throughout.

58:00>> Okay.

58:01>> Thank you. [clears throat]

58:02And I just wanted to confirm um that the

58:06public will be able to offer comment in

58:09person at workshops. There'll be a bunch

58:12of those. Some might be week weekday

58:15evenings, some might be on weekends. Uh

58:17and also written opportunity. So like if

58:19if you're working hard and don't have a

58:21chance to make it to some of those

58:22events, you would still have an

58:23opportunity. Is that correct?

58:24>> That's correct. The goal the the goal is

58:26to have multiple types of interaction um

58:29workshops, interactive things, um

58:32meeting focus groups. Um the goal is to

58:34have them in multiple locations across

58:36uh the community to have them at

58:38multiple different times of day and

58:40night so that people again can fit that

58:42into their schedule and then have an

58:44online version as well.

58:45>> Thank you.

58:46>> I had one question. So I think this came

58:48up in one of the meetings that we had um

58:49downtown. We have approximately 30 plus

58:53volunteers that are still around. Will

58:56there be an opportunity for them? I I

58:57call them living legends. How would they

58:59be factored into the public input?

59:02>> We would absolutely hope that every

59:03single one of the 30 comes to one of

59:05these public sessions, if not all of

59:06them.

59:08>> Thank you. Would

59:11it be accurate to say based on all this

59:12information um to summarize that

59:17we're moving the engine and the staff

59:20supporting the engine from fire station

59:22one to fire station 3. It's in progress.

59:25That decision was made two years ago at

59:26this point. It's been funded. It's being

59:29designed. And as far as fire station one

59:31is concerned, we are just starting the

59:34process right now and deciding what to

59:36do with the site and no final decisions

59:38have been made. Correct. We are starting

59:39with a clean slate

59:43>> and this feasibility study is going to

59:45give us the options that'll work for the

59:47site based on will it look at the

59:49condition of the building and how it can

59:52be transformed in other ways or not

59:54based on whatever.

59:55>> Yes sir.

59:56>> Okay.

59:57>> I want I would like to um say that thank

1:00:01you and the chief you know um for your

1:00:04work and the presentation.

1:00:06My uh question is I remember uh you said

1:00:11that we had one public input, right? Uh

1:00:15we had done before like uh since 2019

1:00:20>> during the um downtown master plan and

1:00:23parking study process

1:00:25>> um that was about a 18month to two-year

1:00:27process. It was adopted in 2019

1:00:30December. So the 18 months prior to that

1:00:33was a whole slew of public input

1:00:36opportunities. Okay.

1:00:37>> And so that's where some of this

1:00:39information that you're seeing in here

1:00:40and on here um all that came out of

1:00:42public input.

1:00:44>> Okay. I see. So we had the public input

1:00:46and we're going to do another public uh

1:00:50input.

1:00:51>> Right. Because this public input is very

1:00:52broad. The these are the top 10 project

1:00:55and the key goal. Those are very broad.

1:00:58the market analysis and feasibility

1:00:59study will be much more in depth and

1:01:01allow the public now because there may

1:01:03be be folks today that were not engaged

1:01:05in 2017, 2018, 2019. So this gives them

1:01:08a chance today to give their input and

1:01:10let their voices be heard.

1:01:12>> Thank you. I like the idea. Thank you.

1:01:14Yes.

1:01:16>> Any other questions? I think there may

1:01:18be more after we hear from,

1:01:21>> you know, the community. So, thank you.

1:01:24>> All right.

1:01:25>> All right. So, we're going to move to

1:01:27the next item, which actually keeps us

1:01:29downtown. So, [clears throat] as you

1:01:32recall, I gave an update on the Salem

1:01:34Streetscaping project, and uh as we've

1:01:37been underway with that project since

1:01:39January of this year, and the original

1:01:42completion date was somewhere in the

1:01:45realm of October. That has now been

1:01:47pushed to October,

1:01:48>> end of October, sorry. Uh yeah, almost

1:01:50November, but end of October. That date

1:01:53has been pushed into December. And so as

1:01:56we um took and feedback from many of the

1:02:00businesses downtown and you all have had

1:02:02several interactions with them as well.

1:02:04Um I know in particular Council Member

1:02:05Ree, we've talked quite a bit about

1:02:07this. Um we we've heard from the

1:02:09businesses uh how much they're

1:02:11struggling in downtown. Um and so we

1:02:15wanted to think through what are

1:02:17opportunities and we've had interaction

1:02:19meetings with the group as well. Uh and

1:02:21there have been several asks and some of

1:02:23those we've tried to implement. some of

1:02:24those under our uh state law we cannot

1:02:27implement. Uh so we wanted to think of a

1:02:29way that we can spur some activity

1:02:31downtown during the the remaining

1:02:33construction period and as we approach

1:02:35the quote unquote season uh for retail

1:02:38and and kind of the high point of

1:02:39business. Uh so what I'm asking of

1:02:42council today is uh a commitment to the

1:02:46concept of giving some seed money so to

1:02:50speak totaling $25,000

1:02:52uh that we can look at events over the

1:02:55next five months starting in September.

1:02:56So September, October, November,

1:02:59December, and January. We're going

1:03:01through January because that is the

1:03:03technical turnover and completion that

1:03:05we're anticipating. It might be

1:03:07substantially in December, but there's

1:03:08an official turnover completed in

1:03:10January. Uh so trying to think through

1:03:12what like a grand opening event, a

1:03:14ribbon cutting that could be December,

1:03:16it could be January. Uh but we wanted to

1:03:18to make sure we're covered. Um so these

1:03:20wouldn't be uh like typical downtown

1:03:22festival events. These would be events

1:03:24that we're going to work in coordination

1:03:26with the business community in downtown

1:03:29uh to maybe focus on some off nights. Um

1:03:31it could be music in the depot parking

1:03:33lot. It could be street performers. it

1:03:35could be uh that it's limitless. I've

1:03:38got a a whole packet of ideas so far

1:03:40from staff and that's before we've heard

1:03:42total engagement from some of the

1:03:44business owners. Uh I've also worked to

1:03:48coordinate with because we want to act

1:03:50quick on this. Um, I worked to

1:03:53coordinate a small committee of downtown

1:03:55business uh, owners and it's four of

1:03:59them and from my understanding of

1:04:02downtown they operate and um, kind of

1:04:05represent multiple businesses down there

1:04:07through some of the partnerships and

1:04:08projects that they've done. They've also

1:04:10been very active as they've approached

1:04:12us on different uh, aspects of the

1:04:14downtown project. So, I'd like to get

1:04:16them together. I've got I was hopeful

1:04:18that tonight would go well. So, I've got

1:04:19a meeting scheduled with them. I think

1:04:21it's Monday. So, we've already got it on

1:04:22the books and anticipation that council

1:04:24would support the concept. If not, we'll

1:04:26meet and talk about other things, but

1:04:28we've got that group together that's set

1:04:30to be actionoriented about what event

1:04:32can we get or what string of events can

1:04:34we get started in September in our

1:04:35downtown. Um, and some examples because

1:04:38we've already got some things planned

1:04:39like the Witches on Salem is in October.

1:04:41Uh, so the concept would be maybe you

1:04:43show um a Halloween themed movie on one

1:04:46of the buildings in conjunction with

1:04:48that. Maybe you do a pumpkin patch in

1:04:49conjunction with that. get a vendor that

1:04:51does that. Uh these dollars would act as

1:04:53the seed dollars for us to uh either

1:04:55contract with vendors or kick off those

1:04:57events. Uh so we don't know exactly what

1:04:59the events are going to look like. We

1:05:00don't know the days and times because we

1:05:02want to engage with the development or

1:05:04the business community to work through

1:05:05that. Um all four of the business owners

1:05:07were excited about this opportunity.

1:05:09They're willing to participate uh and

1:05:11they will take that back to the other

1:05:13businesses as well. But we're excited

1:05:15about the ideas. We'll work with

1:05:16economic development staff. will work

1:05:18with our entertainment division uh staff

1:05:20within parks and wreck. Uh so we've

1:05:22we've got a lot of synergy that's

1:05:23building and we've got to do it kind of

1:05:25quick. So um made a fast pitch on it,

1:05:28but the overall the ask at this point is

1:05:30commitment to $25,000 for the next five

1:05:33months roughly. That's 5,000 a month. It

1:05:35might not work out exactly that way. We

1:05:37might find that we need to spend seven

1:05:39in September and then only three in um

1:05:42October or vice versa. So, we'll work

1:05:44through those details, but uh so I'm

1:05:46asking you to to trust me a little bit.

1:05:47Let me run with these dollars and see

1:05:49what we can do to spur activity downtown

1:05:52to bring people in and support our

1:05:54businesses downtown in a nutshell.

1:05:58>> Okay. Any questions for Mr. Posber on

1:06:01that item?

1:06:02>> And you would consider this just

1:06:03economic development spending?

1:06:06>> Um yes, but I'd also considered

1:06:08entertainment spending too and and

1:06:10activities in our community. It's a

1:06:11combination

1:06:12>> parks, cultural resources,

1:06:13>> right? And that's why we're involved in

1:06:15economic development also and parks and

1:06:17wreck. Um it's similar to dollars we

1:06:19would spend on festivals like bringing

1:06:20activity and and life to downtown. Um it

1:06:24doesn't go to the benefit of individual

1:06:26businesses which have been some of the

1:06:27asks, but that's where we struggle as a

1:06:29local government on what we can do. So

1:06:31the next best thing in my mind is we can

1:06:33bring people down there that will then

1:06:35support the businesses and give money to

1:06:37the businesses if they come out to the

1:06:38events. And at this time, this isn't a

1:06:41request for a budget amendment. This is

1:06:43going to be spread, I guess, through

1:06:45economic development, parks and wreck,

1:06:46and a couple of the other departments,

1:06:48>> right? We have the luxury of being

1:06:49pretty early in our budget. And so, we

1:06:51have pockets of money that would be

1:06:53reserved for activities like this. So,

1:06:55we would spend there, but then the

1:06:57thinking is nine months down the road

1:06:58when I've spent the money for an event

1:07:00that was planned, um, I would need to

1:07:02come to you and say, "Hey, remember when

1:07:04we spent that money downtown? I need to

1:07:05replenish that for the event that's

1:07:06coming up in whatever month it is. So

1:07:09the budget amendment will come but not

1:07:11anytime soon.

1:07:13>> It's not um I mean u it's not asking for

1:07:17more money. It's our pocket money.

1:07:20>> Uh so ultimately it is going to be I'm

1:07:23I'm asking we'll be asking for the money

1:07:24probably from our reserves. Um but it it

1:07:27depends. Maybe if an not that I want

1:07:30this to happen but if an event nine

1:07:31months from now got cancelceled that

1:07:32cost 25,000 we won't maybe have to come

1:07:35to you and ask for that. Uh but if

1:07:37everything plays out as we think we will

1:07:38spend, then I will have to come and ask

1:07:41for that money to be moved over um into

1:07:43the accounts to shore them up for for

1:07:44this type of activity.

1:07:46>> Thank you.

1:07:49>> What type of music can we get past blueg

1:07:51grass?

1:07:52>> We are [laughter] we're open to a lot.

1:07:55So whatever will bring the people out.

1:07:57>> Is there a motion? Motion to approve 25

1:08:01no more than $25,000

1:08:04over five months for our downtown

1:08:06project.

1:08:07>> All right, we have a motion. Councilman

1:08:08Ree.

1:08:09>> Second.

1:08:09>> Second.

1:08:11>> Great. All right, discussion.

1:08:14>> I just wanted to say um thank you to

1:08:18manager Vossberg. Uh thank you to the

1:08:20downtown business community. I did just

1:08:22want to add on to the one of the

1:08:25sentences just for clarity. We talked

1:08:27about um businesses struggling.

1:08:30Many of those businesses were downtown

1:08:32were part of the downtown plan that you

1:08:34just saw some of the slides um and

1:08:36absolutely support this plan and knew

1:08:39that this would be a period kind of like

1:08:41getting braces where you know it's kind

1:08:44of uncomfortable for a little while.

1:08:45Both my daughters have braces right now

1:08:47so I'm going through the you know what

1:08:49we can't eat. Um but it's a finite

1:08:51period of time. there will be a wrap-up

1:08:53date and then we're gonna have a

1:08:55beautiful uh set of pearly whites

1:08:58downtown. So, I just wanted to say thank

1:09:00you for uh your support.

1:09:02>> I'm excited, you know, looking forward

1:09:05for all of those activities.

1:09:07>> Please come downtown during August

1:09:09before we get this thing kicked off.

1:09:13>> See? All right. Is there any other

1:09:16discussion? Good.

1:09:18>> All right. All in favor indicate by

1:09:20saying I.

1:09:21>> Any oppose? No motion carries

1:09:23unanimously. All right, moving on.

1:09:25>> Thank you very much.

1:09:29>> Town clerk's report.

1:09:31>> Yes, uh mayor and council, good evening.

1:09:33We have uh three appointment items. One

1:09:35is for the board of adjustment um to

1:09:38clarify some of the term memberships and

1:09:40then the other two are chair and vice

1:09:42chair confirmations. But I'll start with

1:09:44the first one for the board of

1:09:46adjustment. Uh, this is four different

1:09:48motions, but a motion for Heidi Sicko to

1:09:51move from the alternate member to the

1:09:53regular member, keeping her term

1:09:54unchanged. Moving Casey Angel from

1:09:56alternate two to alternate one on the

1:09:58board of adjustment. Term remains

1:10:00unchanged. Moving Aaron Barnes to

1:10:03alternate three from alternate three to

1:10:05alternate two on the board of

1:10:06adjustment. His term remains unchanged.

1:10:09And motion to confirm William Jiard as

1:10:12alternate three on the Town of Apex

1:10:14board of adjustment. And again, his term

1:10:15remains unchanged.

1:10:18>> We need four different motions,

1:10:19>> but we could do one for all those.

1:10:21>> All right. Um, mayor, I'll make a motion

1:10:23to move Heidi Marcyo from alternate one

1:10:26to regular member to move Casey Angel

1:10:29from alternate two to alternate one, to

1:10:31move Aaron Barnes from alternate three

1:10:33to alternate two, and to confirm William

1:10:34Ghart as alternate three on the town of

1:10:37Apex Board of Adjustment. All terms

1:10:39remaining unchanged.

1:10:40>> All right, we have a motion from second.

1:10:43>> Second. I think I heard he wants to give

1:10:45it to Ziggger. Okay. All right.

1:10:47[laughter]

1:10:47Any discussion? All in favor indicate by

1:10:49saying I.

1:10:50>> I.

1:10:51>> No.

1:10:51>> Motion carries.

1:10:53>> The second one is a motion to confirm

1:10:55Uish Pi as the vice chair of the board

1:10:57of adjustment through December 31st,

1:10:592026. Uh the board of adjustment met

1:11:01back in June and unanimously recommended

1:11:04his appointment.

1:11:06>> I'll make a motion to confirm Ume Pi as

1:11:08vice chair of the Apex town of Apex

1:11:10board of adjustments.

1:11:11>> Second.

1:11:11>> Motion Z. Second. Member per Tim. Any

1:11:14discussion? All in favor say I.

1:11:15>> I.

1:11:16>> Post.

1:11:17>> Motion carries.

1:11:18>> Uh similarly the culture and arts um has

1:11:21their chair and vice chair positions

1:11:22that are on a fiscal year schedule. Um

1:11:25they have met and recommended um Tom

1:11:28Cwell as the chair and um

1:11:33the vice chair as Bethany Bryant.

1:11:37I'd like to make a motion to appoint Tom

1:11:40Cwell as the chair and Bethany Bryant as

1:11:43the vice chair of CAB.

1:11:45>> Second.

1:11:45>> We have a motion from Ree, second from

1:11:48was it Mayor Pro Tim? All right.

1:11:50>> Any discussion? All in favor say I.

1:11:52>> I.

1:11:53>> Opposed? No. Motion carries unanimously.

1:11:56Moving now to public forum. And Mr.

1:11:58Clerk, if you would read the new process

1:11:59for the public participation policy we

1:12:03have in place, please.

1:12:05>> Sure. So, uh, beginning June 9th, 2026,

1:12:09the town clerk's office piloted a new

1:12:11electronic registration process. The

1:12:14current public participation policy

1:12:16states, "Individual comments are limited

1:12:18to three minutes. The public form and

1:12:21public comment period shall not exceed

1:12:2336 minutes or 12 individual speakers,

1:12:26whichever comes first. If the signup

1:12:28list exceeds 12 individual speakers or

1:12:3036 minutes per the adopted policy, the

1:12:33town clerk will prioritize the list of

1:12:35speakers to those who have not spoken in

1:12:37the last 30 days. After those

1:12:40individuals have spoken, the list will

1:12:41continue in order by the individual that

1:12:44signed up until the 12th individual

1:12:46speakers or 36 minutes is reached.

1:12:48Individuals who still wish to speak will

1:12:50still be given the opportunity to do so

1:12:52at the conclusion of the business

1:12:54portion of the meeting immediately

1:12:56before close session.

1:12:57>> Okay. Thank you so much. And how many

1:12:59does it show right now that we have?

1:13:00>> We have 18.

1:13:01>> 18. Okay. All right.

1:13:05Thank you so much for that.

1:13:12>> All right. We'll go ahead and get

1:13:12started.

1:13:14Uh the first speaker tonight is Rory

1:13:16Moore. if you would please come up.

1:13:20And he has a group. You have four or

1:13:22more. If you would just raise your hand

1:13:24if you would. Mr. Moore,

1:13:26>> just raise your hand.

1:13:28>> Okay, we got So that's nine nine

1:13:30minutes.

1:13:32>> Come on.

1:13:55Christ.

1:14:05[clears throat]

1:14:12Good.

1:14:13>> Mr. Mayor, town commissioners. Um,

1:14:16unfortunately, Brian Yates could not

1:14:18make it tonight. So, he did ask me if I

1:14:20read an email that he sent. Um, so I'm

1:14:22going to do that on his behalf. Uh,

1:14:25first off, I'd like to provide a brief

1:14:26summary on the history and the process

1:14:28that led to the town of Apex acquiring

1:14:29the fire station. The Apex Volunteer

1:14:31Fire Department was established in 1939

1:14:34with approximately 16 members whose

1:14:36names are displayed on a plaque out

1:14:37front. For many years, the department

1:14:39operated through a combination of county

1:14:41tax revenue, donations, fundraising, and

1:14:43contract funding from the town of Apex.

1:14:46In the late 1990s, the town of Apex

1:14:48began experiencing significant growth

1:14:50with many new subdivisions and

1:14:51businesses being developed. As a town

1:14:53continued to annex property, the

1:14:55funding, which we received from the

1:14:56county began to decline over the years.

1:14:58Unfortunately, the town's contribution

1:15:00did not increase at a level sufficient

1:15:02to offset the funding lost through

1:15:03annexation. The volunteer fire

1:15:05department repeatedly requested

1:15:07additional funding. that we could

1:15:08continue providing the same level of

1:15:09fire protection and service that the

1:15:12citizens of Apex and the surrounding

1:15:14areas had come to expect. The town,

1:15:16however, expressed concerns that the

1:15:17amount of funding being provided was

1:15:18already more than it was comfortable

1:15:20with and indicate that it was wanted

1:15:22greater control over the fire protection

1:15:24service. In 1998, we reached an

1:15:26agreement to turn over the town staff to

1:15:28the town [clears throat] of Apex. We

1:15:29believe this would be a positive

1:15:31arrangement for both the town and our

1:15:32employees. By 2000, as the town

1:15:34continued to annex property, we again

1:15:37found ourselves seeking additional

1:15:38funding. At that time, the town proposed

1:15:41a merger of the fire protection service.

1:15:43The town had also purchased a fire truck

1:15:44and had made some plans to construct its

1:15:46own fire station on Hunter Street.

1:15:49[clears throat] We worked on a merger

1:15:50agreement for approximately a year and

1:15:51ultimately reached an agreement in late

1:15:532001. Brian was a department president

1:15:56at the time and was responsible for

1:15:57explaining the proposal to our 39

1:15:59members and convincing them that this

1:16:00was the best option for allowing us to

1:16:02continue serving our community. For

1:16:04Brian, this was particularly difficult

1:16:05because his father was in his 30th year

1:16:07of service and his uncle was in his 37th

1:16:09year. His grandfather had also been a

1:16:11charter member of the department. There

1:16:13was a tremendous amount of family and

1:16:15community history tied to the

1:16:16department. The decision to merge was

1:16:18not an easy one. It meant giving up

1:16:20control of the department that many

1:16:21people had spent more than 60 years

1:16:23building and supporting. Throughout the

1:16:25process, one question consistently

1:16:26guided our discussion and decision. What

1:16:28is best for the citizens of our

1:16:30district? We essentially had two

1:16:32options. We could merge with the town or

1:16:34we could allow the town to take

1:16:35responsibility for its own fire

1:16:37protection while the volunteer fire

1:16:38department continue contracting with the

1:16:40county for as long as the county was

1:16:41willing to renew our contract.

1:16:43Ultimately, we signed the merger

1:16:45agreement and transferred all the

1:16:46department's assets to the town in

1:16:47exchange for the opportunity to continue

1:16:49serving the community for a term of 20

1:16:51years. One of the main points of

1:16:53discussion and concern throughout the

1:16:54negotiation was that this fire station

1:16:57was this fire station. We wanted it to

1:16:59remain a fire station because of its

1:17:01deep history and significance to

1:17:02downtown Apex. We wanted a provision

1:17:04that would ensure it remained a fire

1:17:06station forever. Although we understood

1:17:08that such a permanent provision would be

1:17:09difficult, if not impossible, to put in

1:17:11a contract at the time. However,

1:17:13everyone involved, including the

1:17:14commissioners, agreed that they could

1:17:16not envision a day when this would not

1:17:18no longer operate as a fire station. I

1:17:20personally would have never agreed to

1:17:22the merger that I believe that this

1:17:24station would eventually have closed and

1:17:25be demolished.

1:17:27We do we do not know all the reasons

1:17:29behind the current consideration for

1:17:30closing and demolishing the station. We

1:17:32respect the fire chief's professional

1:17:33judgment and understand that he must

1:17:35make decisions based on the town's

1:17:37current and future operational needs. We

1:17:39would never presume to challenge him

1:17:41regarding those needs. Our request is

1:17:43simply that the town give serious

1:17:44consideration to finding a way to

1:17:45continue utilizing the station as it

1:17:47exists today, allowing it to remain a

1:17:49place where excellent fire protection

1:17:51can continue to be provided to the

1:17:52citizens of Apex and has been for more

1:17:55than 85 years. The station rep

1:17:57represents more than a building. Is an

1:17:59important part of Apex history and holds

1:18:00tremendous meaning for the many men and

1:18:02women who have served the community

1:18:03throughout the volunteer fire department

1:18:05over the decades. It represents the

1:18:07dedication, sacrifice, and commitment of

1:18:08generations of citizens who gave their

1:18:10time to protect their neighbors. I often

1:18:12hear the town council speak about doing

1:18:14everything possible to preserve the

1:18:15historic downtown character and threat

1:18:18of Apex for future generations. I

1:18:20believe this station presents an

1:18:22excellent opportunity to put that

1:18:23commitment into action. We respectfully

1:18:25ask that the town consider the

1:18:26historical significance of this

1:18:28building, the commitment that was made

1:18:29when the merger took place, and the many

1:18:31generations of citizens who have served

1:18:33from this location before making a final

1:18:35decision about its future. Thank you for

1:18:37your time, consideration, and service to

1:18:39the town of Apex.

1:18:40>> Thank you. Next speaker. [applause]

1:18:47I I would also ask the council that each

1:18:50speaker be allowed three minutes to talk

1:18:54about this very important issue. I stand

1:18:58before you today as Christine Hilt, 204

1:19:01Hinton Street. as a member of the town

1:19:04board who sat across the table from

1:19:07Brian Yates and the Apex Volunteer Fire

1:19:10Department during the merger

1:19:12negotiations over 25 years ago. As the

1:19:16liaison from the town and its governing

1:19:18board, it was my unenviable

1:19:21responsibility to lead the negotiations.

1:19:25The first thing I did as a responsible

1:19:28steward of this town was to just listen.

1:19:34Through heated emotional exchanges, I

1:19:37learned how much blood, sweat, and tears

1:19:39the volunteers gave in protecting our

1:19:41community. I also learned of the bonds

1:19:44that were forged amongst the families

1:19:46that loved our community so much that

1:19:48they risked their lives to protect it.

1:19:52It was immediately obvious to me how

1:19:54important Apex Volunteer Fire Station

1:19:57number one was to our firefighters and

1:20:02how important it should be to all of us

1:20:04today. Fire Station number one stands

1:20:08today as a living legacy to our storied

1:20:11and cherished small town past.

1:20:16The only downtown building that

1:20:17functions in the same capacity that it

1:20:19did from the first day it opened. The

1:20:22small town fire station in the middle of

1:20:24our downtown that still stops traffic

1:20:27and onlookers as sirens go off for the

1:20:30call. The kids that look on in awe as

1:20:33the apparatus roll by. And the rolled up

1:20:36bay door that invites children and the

1:20:38young at heart to walk around and

1:20:39sometimes in the fire trucks just like

1:20:42it did 70 years ago.

1:20:46Irreplaceable.

1:20:50As we grow so w rapidly, I think it's

1:20:52easy to forget that as stewards of this

1:20:54town, it's as important for you to

1:20:56protect the past as it is to shepherd

1:20:59its future. If you see this building as

1:21:02just old bricks and mortar that's

1:21:04getting in the way of progress, then

1:21:05you're failing to see the small town

1:21:07cultural experience

1:21:10we who live in downtown and visit the

1:21:12downtown get to experience every single

1:21:15day.

1:21:16That fire station encapsulates why many

1:21:19of us moved here. It is Apex.

1:21:25You know, I'm very glad I took the time

1:21:27to just listen 25 years ago. And I'm

1:21:31asking you to do the same thing tonight.

1:21:34And in the coming months and years,

1:21:37they're living legacies. They should be

1:21:40heard. And I'm sure you've gotten

1:21:42practical feedback on why this building

1:21:44should be demolished and replaced with

1:21:46something and shiny and new. We did,

1:21:49too. This is the group that approved

1:21:52fire station three.

1:21:54and got it built. You're listening to

1:21:57the same thing we heard 25 years ago.

1:22:00But

1:22:02in me doing the listening that I did in

1:22:05the community, we realize that fire

1:22:07station number one is a proud legacy for

1:22:10which there is no replacement.

1:22:14You all have a huge responsibility as

1:22:16stewards of our beautiful town to take

1:22:19loving care of it.

1:22:22That's why I believe in my heart that

1:22:24you'll do the right thing in protecting

1:22:26Apex volunteer fire station number one

1:22:31and planning for its future. Thank you.

1:22:35[applause]

1:22:40I

1:22:40>> I do want to this is a very important

1:22:43topic. I mean it's obvious many people

1:22:46are here to for this topic. So

1:22:49colleagues of the request made for three

1:22:52minutes for each. Is anybody in disgrace

1:22:55to that? I think what we should do is we

1:22:58should move make a motion to um I guess

1:23:01adjust the the um the meeting list to

1:23:05add them each individually rather than

1:23:07having them speak as a group. I think

1:23:09you want to make that

1:23:10>> I think I think and and and then to do

1:23:12that that would still bring us still

1:23:14within our 36 minutes but that would

1:23:16ultimately still allow them to come back

1:23:19in. So that's the motion I would make is

1:23:21to amend the current list to allow the

1:23:24addition of the additional

1:23:27speakers on that list

1:23:29>> at this time. at this time, right? So

1:23:32that would still allow the roll over for

1:23:34after 36 minutes or anybody else that

1:23:36would be there. Okay.

1:23:37>> Just to make just to keep it

1:23:38procedurally consistent because I think

1:23:40it seems like the intent was they maybe

1:23:44a group.

1:23:45>> That's correct.

1:23:47>> But they were speaking individually. So

1:23:50um that's kind of what

1:23:51>> because it was on the same topic,

1:23:52>> right? It seemed like that was the

1:23:53intent. So we can that that would be my

1:23:56motion.

1:23:58>> Okay.

1:24:00Okay. Second.

1:24:01>> Second. Ziggman. Any discussion?

1:24:04All in favor say I. I.

1:24:06>> Motion carries.

1:24:08>> Three minutes.

1:24:11>> Good evening. Uh my name is Roy Moore.

1:24:13I've been served as a firefighter here

1:24:16in the town of Apex for 22 years.

1:24:18Majority of my time was a volunteer,

1:24:20paid for about six. Mr. Yates and the

1:24:23member of the 2002 town council have

1:24:26shared with you history behind me. Uh

1:24:29there's people behind me that are

1:24:30wearing Save Apex Station One stickers.

1:24:34I am the person who is behind this. It's

1:24:36it's mine. Representation

1:24:39uh to the many people who support

1:24:41keeping this active fire station. The

1:24:43petition has received more than 1300

1:24:46signatures in 3 weeks. It's pretty

1:24:48significant.

1:24:49I've given you a copy of the February

1:24:5216th town council retreat day two where

1:24:55the chief talked about fire station one

1:24:57downtown and it states in that plan for

1:25:00a single engine fire station with a

1:25:03museum. How has that changed in such a

1:25:06short amount of time? When the town and

1:25:09the volunteer fire department merged 25

1:25:11years ago, the volunteer transferred all

1:25:13of the stations, all the apparatus

1:25:16equipment to the town at no cost.

1:25:19Today, station one alone is valued at

1:25:21probably around $4 million.

1:25:24Maybe split the remodel cost between

1:25:26station three half and fund station one.

1:25:29Yet, public record indicates that no

1:25:32capital building uh no capital funding

1:25:35has been invested in this building since

1:25:372002

1:25:40in which 6 to8 million is spent on brand

1:25:44new fire stations. Station one is around

1:25:469,000 square feet. The average cost to

1:25:48build a new station is about $500 a

1:25:50square foot. So that would put station

1:25:53one at $4.5 million. In 2019, when the

1:25:57discussion about station 1's future

1:25:59began, volunteers were not included in

1:26:02those discussions. Gre greater

1:26:03transport, transparency, and

1:26:06collaboration are much needed.

1:26:09There is no b relation tool than that

1:26:12active fire station downtown. Seeing the

1:26:14firefighters with the bay doors open,

1:26:16interacting with families, children, and

1:26:18visitors is a part of what makes Apex so

1:26:21special. Once an active station is gone,

1:26:23that tradition cannot be replaced. Once

1:26:26station 3 is under construction for the

1:26:28next 16 to 24 months, station one is

1:26:31expected to house both the engine and

1:26:33the rescue truck. That's eight

1:26:34firefighters serving out of that

1:26:36locations. Concerns have been raised

1:26:38about operating large apparatus

1:26:40downtown, but these firefighters have

1:26:42extensive emergency vehicle training and

1:26:44have safely served our community from

1:26:46that station since 1954.

1:26:50Just final thought, station one, it it

1:26:54you know replaced with a museum or fire

1:26:56prevention classroom. While those ideas

1:26:59have values, they don't replace our

1:27:00commun what our community wants and

1:27:02needs. An active fire station. A museum

1:27:05honors the past and an operating station

1:27:08protects the future. Thank you for your

1:27:10time.

1:27:10>> Thank you for speaking. [applause]

1:27:18[applause]

1:27:20>> Next speaker, Timothy Mclane. Timothy

1:27:24Mclane.

1:27:31>> Good evening, Mayor Gilbert and town

1:27:33council members. My name is Tim Mlan.

1:27:35I've been an Apex resident for 20 years

1:27:38as of this year. And I want to add my

1:27:41voice to the chorus that's pushing back

1:27:43against ALPR's flock and police drones.

1:27:47[applause]

1:27:52Thank you. I just want to say there's a

1:27:55reason that people all over this country

1:27:57are fighting back against these cameras

1:27:59right now. We've all seen it on the news

1:28:01in Michigan, West Virginia, New York,

1:28:04residents have out of desperation

1:28:07cut down these cameras. Uh in

1:28:10California, a driver a driver just

1:28:12rammed his truck into three of them in a

1:28:14row. And in Florida, there's a retired

1:28:17man who has spent his days sitting in a

1:28:19lawn chair holding up a piece of

1:28:20cardboard just to block the camera's

1:28:22lens.

1:28:24These people are frustrated. They're

1:28:26worried about being tracked. And sadly,

1:28:29these people felt the need to take

1:28:31matters into their own hands. Nobody

1:28:33wants that. I don't want that. I know

1:28:36you don't want that. And it's not only

1:28:38individuals. City governments are

1:28:40cancelling their flock contracts in

1:28:42Colorado, Oregon, Wisconsin, Tennessee,

1:28:44Washington State. Some of the biggest

1:28:47cities in the country, Los Angeles,

1:28:48Austin, Seattle, Flagstaff, have walked

1:28:51away. And even closer to home, Hillsboro

1:28:55and Pittsboro have just done the same.

1:28:58Why? It's because the misuse keeps

1:29:02happening. There are not enough controls

1:29:05in place. In Arizona, a police officer

1:29:09used Flock to track his own wife.

1:29:12Uh in Morsville, closer to home, an

1:29:15officer was just arrested for using

1:29:17Flock to follow an ex-spouse. And in

1:29:19Georgia, six police employees were fired

1:29:23for searching the system to look up

1:29:25family members and acquaintances who had

1:29:28nothing to do with any investig in any

1:29:30investigation. Six people fired in one

1:29:34department. And I want to be clear,

1:29:36every example that I just gave to you

1:29:38happened in the past seven days, not the

1:29:41past year, the past week. Look, here's

1:29:44where I land. I trust our apex police. I

1:29:49trust and respect our chief. I trust

1:29:52them with my life and my family's life.

1:29:54We all do. They were trained and they're

1:29:57doing this job. They've been doing this

1:29:58job long before any of this unchecked

1:30:01and unwanted technology existed. And I

1:30:05know that they are capable enough to

1:30:06keep us safe without a camera on every

1:30:09corner or more drones in our skies. We

1:30:13are Apex, the peak of good living. We

1:30:17are not Apex, the peak of surveillance.

1:30:20I This is what I want to say. No more

1:30:22cameras, no flock, no axon, and

1:30:26absolutely no drones. Thank you.

1:30:29[applause]

1:30:37Stephen Burke,

1:30:43I just want to appreciate the energy for

1:30:45sure, but uh as we continue down the

1:30:48list, you're cutting the time down for

1:30:49the speaker. So, if you could hold your

1:30:51applause to after they speak, I'm fine

1:30:53with that, but we got to keep this going

1:30:55or it's going to be labor meeting. So,

1:30:57um Stephen Burke

1:31:11Hi, Steve Burke, GNCA. Uh,

1:31:15I am local to the area. I can share an

1:31:18address if I need to privately, but I

1:31:20had prepared some remarks for this. I'm

1:31:21going to deviate from them though

1:31:22because um the signup form I noticed is

1:31:25digital now. I think previously it was

1:31:27written. How long's it been digital?

1:31:30We just did it like a

1:31:32>> June. So it's it's insecure. Um so all

1:31:36of the data that people are putting in

1:31:38there is visible on a double click. Some

1:31:40of that is public information. A lot of

1:31:42it is not. So there's not necessarily an

1:31:45email address that's tied to a physical

1:31:48address, a name, and a phone number, but

1:31:51they are there.

1:31:53Uh the AI option was also enabled in the

1:31:58browser. or someone here noticed it and

1:31:59turned it off. Um, these are problems

1:32:03that sends data back to Microsoft or

1:32:05Google or whoever the browser is. This

1:32:09is a data security issue.

1:32:11[clears throat]

1:32:13Apex also at the beginning of this I

1:32:15noticed you were talking about overdue

1:32:17balances for utilities.

1:32:20Apex was previously breached in 2024, I

1:32:24believe it was, right? 22,000 people, I

1:32:27think.

1:32:28That data included, I'm going to list it

1:32:31off. This is from Apex's website. Social

1:32:35security numbers, driver's licenses,

1:32:37government issued ID, passport numbers,

1:32:39financial account information, credit or

1:32:41debit card numbers, email addresses,

1:32:43usernames, passwords, dates of birth,

1:32:45dates of service, health insurance

1:32:47information, medical conditions and/or

1:32:50treatment information, medical record

1:32:53number, patient account number andor

1:32:56telephone number.

1:32:58This is on the Apex website. This was

1:33:01from a breach of I believe you can

1:33:02correct me if I'm wrong. I believe it

1:33:04was the utilities website. It may have

1:33:05been more.

1:33:07So,

1:33:08you know, I guess where I'm going with

1:33:09this is now we're talking about Flock

1:33:12cameras where Flock, as I understand it

1:33:15from the Dlock website for Apex, you

1:33:18have currently over 15 million plate

1:33:21scans in Apex.

1:33:24If Apex can't keep the data safe for the

1:33:2918 people speaking here today

1:33:32or for the 22,000 people on the

1:33:35utilities website, I don't think Apex is

1:33:39prepared to handle the security

1:33:41nightmare that is collecting 15 million

1:33:43plates to date. It's completely insane.

1:33:47And this is not just an apex problem. It

1:33:51can be foreign actors of other states.

1:33:53It can be domestic actors who are just

1:33:55bad actors. All of these people are

1:33:59vectors to tie that data to all the

1:34:02other data breaches out there. And I

1:34:03checked everyone on this council is in

1:34:05major data breaches online. It's

1:34:07purchasable, easy, like all of you. Uh

1:34:10and that's what everyone's at risk of

1:34:12with Flock as well. Thank you for

1:34:13speaking. Thank you, [applause]

1:34:21>> George Hogan. George Hogan.

1:34:29>> George Hogan, Apex resident, DFlock Apex

1:34:32founder, and one of your neighbors. So,

1:34:35what happened this summer? We didn't get

1:34:36to meet for a couple months. Uh, as a

1:34:39previous resident said, across the

1:34:41country, city after city pulled the plug

1:34:43on this surveillance system. Not just

1:34:46Flock, ALPR, all of it, the whole thing.

1:34:49Council tore up contracts. Towns voted

1:34:52the cameras down. Thousands of your

1:34:54neighbors listen to all these people. It

1:34:57might have been me in the beginning, but

1:34:59they are here and they are not happy.

1:35:01Our members have done the press.

1:35:03Councilman Ree has done the press. The

1:35:05mayor has done the press. And it looked

1:35:08like progress.

1:35:09But while your committee, your public

1:35:11service, public safety committee sat

1:35:14waiting, the whole country is moving.

1:35:16Apex is not. There's bipartisan

1:35:19legislation in Congress right now to

1:35:21stop this nonsense. Bipartisan in a

1:35:24country that agrees on nothing. The left

1:35:27and the right looked at the machine that

1:35:29tracks every single driver in America

1:35:31and said the same word. No, we're done

1:35:34with it. The people pushing this

1:35:36surveillance, plenty of police

1:35:38departments, and even some on this

1:35:39council, they might call us radical.

1:35:42Wanting to drive to work, drive to

1:35:44church, take the kids to school without

1:35:46the government mapping where I'm going,

1:35:48that's not radical. That's the most

1:35:50American thing you can do. Photographing

1:35:53every car in this town, that's radical.

1:35:55Logging it to a private system owned by

1:35:59known right-wing billionaires is

1:36:01radical.

1:36:03This is radical in this room tonight if

1:36:07you do not make a decision on taking it

1:36:10down. I am not the radical one here.

1:36:12This council is the radical one. So go

1:36:15back to 2023 when you approve these

1:36:17cameras. Apex was at the lowest crime

1:36:20rate in history. In history

1:36:24supplied by the FBI. The lowest ever. No

1:36:27wave, no emergency, no monster at the

1:36:30door. You bought mass surveillance with

1:36:33our money just because. And for the

1:36:36record, there is absolutely no

1:36:37independent evidence that flock or ALPR

1:36:40reduces crime. The studies that claim

1:36:42that trace right back to the vendor.

1:36:45Violent crime has been luckily falling

1:36:47all over the country and in the towns

1:36:48that have these cameras and don't. It is

1:36:51the exact same number. There is no

1:36:53impact on this. And there's research

1:36:56that's blanketing the community and

1:36:58surveillance erodess trust in the

1:37:00police. If you want to back the blue,

1:37:02you want to be proud of the cops, this

1:37:04is not how you do it. Not at all. Now, I

1:37:07want everyone in the room that watch

1:37:09what might happen.

1:37:11Someone up here is going to offer to

1:37:13switch flock with action because that's

1:37:16the easy choice. That is not an

1:37:18acceptable choice. Council, you are not

1:37:20the police department. I am not the

1:37:22police department. The chief works for

1:37:23this town and it's your job to govern

1:37:26it. That is the whole reason we sit here

1:37:28and you sit up there. The radical person

1:37:31in this room is not the neighbor asking

1:37:33to be left alone. It's the government

1:37:35that chose to track us all. We're

1:37:37remembering. You guys bet wrong. We

1:37:39noticed. And we're not going anywhere.

1:37:42[applause]

1:37:50John Wagstaff. John Wagstaff.

1:38:04>> Good evening. Um, so I'm a resident of

1:38:07Apex couple years now. I'm also a

1:38:0910-year veteran law enforcement officer

1:38:11in a neighboring jurisdiction. And I

1:38:13offer a little bit of a opposing

1:38:15perspective. what you heard uh keeping

1:38:17it on the consent agenda um item.

1:38:20They're kind of co-opting critics of

1:38:23LPR's

1:38:24against the the Axon contract. Um and I

1:38:28really want to validate calls for

1:38:30transparency and accountability. Um

1:38:32however, I really think the sentiments

1:38:34nationwide are being overblown and I

1:38:36would caution Apex um seriously to think

1:38:38about that. We cannot afford to be

1:38:41misguided on topics where lives and

1:38:43property are at stake. If a flock hit

1:38:45tonight puts the lead on a stolen car

1:38:47coming into Apex that prevented a home

1:38:49invasion of a child being killed, that's

1:38:51a game changer. So, I chose to move to

1:38:54Apex because as I respected the

1:38:56direction of town governance, I

1:38:57particularly appreciated the

1:38:58intentionality of capacity building and

1:39:00public safety as the areas continue to

1:39:02experience overwhelming growth. I've

1:39:05lived in the triangle for decades.

1:39:07Criminal activity from non-residents is

1:39:09overwhelming in suburbs like Apex and a

1:39:12phenomenon that will continue to

1:39:13challenge the resources of our town for

1:39:15decades to come. Durham, for example,

1:39:18has fewer officers than they had in uh

1:39:202004 when the population was 100,000

1:39:23less. Raleigh, similar numbers. We are

1:39:26fortunate to have extremely competent

1:39:28and thoughtful leadership in our police

1:39:29department. Chief Johansson has built a

1:39:31culture that's attracting some of the

1:39:32brightest officers in the triangle to

1:39:34the department. I'm confident in them to

1:39:36make informed yet measured decisions

1:39:39about what's best for public safety. I

1:39:41urge you all to remain steadfast in that

1:39:44support of them. Again, Chief Johansson

1:39:46and his staff are the experts in law

1:39:48enforcement.

1:39:50Recognizing that you are doing so does

1:39:52not mean that you don't have to hold

1:39:53them accountable for transparency and

1:39:55accountability in this process. What

1:39:57everyone in here against LPR's and Axon

1:40:00suite of technologies is advocating for.

1:40:03I agree with that. It's right for the

1:40:05citizens to demand transparency and

1:40:07accountability from their government.

1:40:09What's not right is making public safety

1:40:11decisions based on suppositions instead

1:40:13of empirical evidence and expert

1:40:15leadership. I get that some of it's

1:40:17scarce, but I've emailed you some

1:40:19resources on latest literature showing

1:40:21that this might not be futile.

1:40:25Uh in a gist, a lot of the call for

1:40:27transparency and safeguards discounts

1:40:29what is already being tracked. Every day

1:40:31when we walk around, we're being tracked

1:40:32by corporations for private interests.

1:40:34If you walk around with your cell phone,

1:40:36even older cell phones with Bluetooth

1:40:38beacons, we there's advertising and

1:40:41marketing firms that have those beacons

1:40:42in airports and and malls that have been

1:40:44tracking you for years. So, we're

1:40:46allowing these corporations to track us

1:40:48for their own profits. Why are we not

1:40:50putting

1:40:52surveillance, if you want to call it

1:40:54that, in public places to capture

1:40:56information to maximize law enforcement

1:40:58capacity to do their job? I implore you

1:41:00to think very serious about it and think

1:41:02about the repercussions that could be a

1:41:04life or property damage without it.

1:41:07Thank you.

1:41:08>> Thank you for speaking.

1:41:10[applause]

1:41:13>> Um Derek O'Neal.

1:41:21>> Hi. Uh my name is Derrick O'Neal. I live

1:41:23at 3329 Bwell Ridge Drive. I've lived

1:41:26here since 2019. Um, I was going to have

1:41:30a different set of remarks, but I think

1:41:31instead what I'm going to do is tell you

1:41:32a story. When I first started working

1:41:35for my company about six months in, I

1:41:38was uh technical support. I got an

1:41:40email. Uh, local registar was having

1:41:43trouble with the business intelligence

1:41:45software that we sold her. Uh, wasn't

1:41:47giving her the number she wanted and she

1:41:49wanted some help with the data. That

1:41:51email contained a CSV with 265,000

1:41:54social security numbers on it. in one

1:41:57email. That's what a data breach looks

1:42:00like. It's not some hacker in their

1:42:03grandmother's basement hacking away at a

1:42:06keyboard trying to penetrate Flock's

1:42:08defense systems. What it is is a

1:42:10misguided public official accidentally

1:42:13giving access to someone that shouldn't

1:42:15have had access to it.

1:42:17it's accidentally leaving on a feature

1:42:20on your web browser when you're taking

1:42:22public remark applications that not only

1:42:25saves it to that laptop but sends it to

1:42:28Google for analysis. If that same email

1:42:31would have landed in my inbox this year,

1:42:34that email would have been read by

1:42:36Microsoft. It would have gone into

1:42:37co-pilot's training. I could have asked

1:42:39my co-pilot what the social security

1:42:42number was of John Smith, who's an

1:42:43undergraduate.

1:42:46That's what a data breach looks looks

1:42:47like. Our flock system for Apex Police

1:42:50Department has been has granted access

1:42:54to 1191

1:42:56different agencies across the country.

1:42:59Now, we were told that no federal

1:43:01agencies would be involved and as our

1:43:03chief described, a snafu happened where

1:43:06they accidentally gave access to two

1:43:08federal agencies.

1:43:10Snafu situation normal. All effed up.

1:43:16I don't want that to be the normal

1:43:18situation. Also, to the point of we have

1:43:22corporate overlords tracking our every

1:43:23moment, that's not like a goal.

1:43:27Um, Google Graphian OS if you want to

1:43:30not have stuff tracked in your phone.

1:43:31But anyway,

1:43:331191

1:43:35agencies across the country, one of them

1:43:37is the Florida Wildlife and Fish Police

1:43:40Department. What do they need? Did we

1:43:43catch too small a bass and keep it? What

1:43:46are we doing? I I'm beside myself. If If

1:43:50you think that out of those, 911

1:43:53agencies, not a single one of them is

1:43:57laundering requests from the federal

1:43:59government and then just quietly

1:44:01emailing a CSV with the results. I have

1:44:04a bridge to sell you.

1:44:07That's not how this stuff works. That's

1:44:09not our our FBI, ICE. They are not

1:44:12behaving themselves. Washington

1:44:14University already uncovered this exact

1:44:17thing happening. Federal agencies are

1:44:19getting access to local municipalities

1:44:22data through side channels. It's

1:44:24happening today and for the past year.

1:44:26>> Thank you for speaking. Thank you.

1:44:27>> WELCOME. [applause]

1:44:38>> KAREN, YES, you're up. Thank you. Thank

1:44:40you for speaking tonight.

1:44:49>> Karen Delvinthal, 507 Homestead Park

1:44:51Drive, Apex, North Carolina 27502.

1:44:54And everybody in the world has got my

1:44:56information, so I ain't worried about

1:44:58it. And thank you to the police chief

1:45:00for keeping me safe. I'm not against

1:45:02anything about the fire department or

1:45:05the volunteers. I appreciate you all.

1:45:09What I don't appreciate is you ain't

1:45:12going to want more money to do another

1:45:15study about a study that we already did.

1:45:22Okay? Because we did it in 2019,

1:45:262017,

1:45:29a long time ago.

1:45:32It's been done.

1:45:36We've had all kinds of hearings. The

1:45:39budget has been set,

1:45:42right? It's been set.

1:45:47I ain't got no more money.

1:45:49I'm sorry. I'm broke.

1:45:52If I have something come up,

1:45:55refrigerator goes out, need something

1:45:58done,

1:46:00I got to cut something out of my budget

1:46:03cuz it's already set for the year.

1:46:07I ain't got no more money. So don't come

1:46:10to me for no more money. Including that

1:46:13$2500

1:46:15>> 25,000

1:46:16>> 25,000. Okay, I stand corrected.

1:46:20$25,000

1:46:22that you're going to want to come to me

1:46:24later on

1:46:26early next year for more party stuff.

1:46:31Ain't got it. Don't come to me. You got

1:46:34your budget. live within it.

1:46:38I have nothing

1:46:40more to give. If you want a suggestion

1:46:43on where you can start cutting to make

1:46:46up for another study or $25,000

1:46:52for another party,

1:46:54I suggest you look at the stage and get

1:46:57rid of that first because you ain't

1:46:59going to be able to get it out of me.

1:47:02I'm done. I'm out of here.

1:47:04>> Thank you.

1:47:06[applause] Speaker

1:47:08is Maverick Ashbornne. Maverick Ashborn.

1:47:16>> Oh. Uh, good afternoon.

1:47:20I I I've come here today to talk about

1:47:22flock cameras and the ways it can be

1:47:24misused by a myriad of people. With lock

1:47:27cameras being widespread as they are, I

1:47:30would like to highlight a few cases of

1:47:32the way the system can be abused to

1:47:34surveil innocent people.

1:47:37Uh the flock cameras.

1:47:41The flock camera system has multiple

1:47:43known vulnerabilities which were

1:47:44published in the national vulnerability

1:47:46database which is funded by the

1:47:49department of homeland security.

1:47:52As widely publicized by Ben Jordan,

1:47:55these vulnerabilities allow for bad

1:47:57actors to easily access the data created

1:48:00by the cameras, allowing me, you, and

1:48:03anyone who is in this room to be tracked

1:48:05by anyone who wishes to do us harm.

1:48:08These cameras can also be exploited by

1:48:11police officer. For example, as

1:48:13mentioned before, in the town of

1:48:14Morrisville, which is about 6 milesi

1:48:16north here, uh where was that? As

1:48:20reported by ABC, the officer allegedly

1:48:22used the Flock camera network to track

1:48:24her boyfriend's ex-wife 31 times,

1:48:28and that is unacceptable. My final

1:48:30example, according to the research done

1:48:34by Jason Hunar,

1:48:37by using flock event logs which he

1:48:39obtained by using open records request

1:48:43in Dunway, Georgia, he found possible

1:48:45evidence of flock employees using their

1:48:48camera systems to violate the privacy of

1:48:51the residents of that town.

1:48:53This means by using flock cameras in our

1:48:56air in your area in our area you will be

1:48:59allowing the possibility of the

1:49:01employees of a private company to

1:49:03violate the privacy of every single one

1:49:05of your voters and their families

1:49:08including the most vulnerable members of

1:49:09our community the children. The role of

1:49:12the town council is to create create

1:49:15laws that protect its citiz create

1:49:17ordinances that protect its citizens

1:49:20includ including their privacy. I hope

1:49:23this I hope the example I provided today

1:49:25will be enough to convince you to ask

1:49:27for the removal of the cameras and to

1:49:29fulfill your duty and represent the

1:49:31town's best interest.

1:49:33>> Thank you. I I passed the sheet with the

1:49:36QR codes

1:49:37>> that that has like information on

1:49:39sources and how I came to conclusions.

1:49:42So

1:49:42>> if someone disputes me or if you don't

1:49:44believe me, you can kind of understand

1:49:46how I came to conclusions I did.

1:49:49>> Thank you for speaking tonight.

1:49:50Appreciate it. [applause]

1:49:58>> Okay, we uh I was just informed by the

1:50:00clerk we're six minutes left.

1:50:04Okay, six minutes of two speakers. So

1:50:06the next speaker is Rosemary Senoski

1:50:08Dolls.

1:50:17>> Good evening. This is about

1:50:19environmental the environmental advisory

1:50:21board data center subcommittee meetings.

1:50:24[clears throat]

1:50:25I had planned to attend last Wednesday's

1:50:27subcommittee meeting but couldn't make

1:50:29it. So, I figured, well, I'll just go on

1:50:31YouTube and find the live streamed

1:50:34recording. Imagine my surprise when none

1:50:36of those are on YouTube. Could not find

1:50:40it. Why not?

1:50:43I found parks and wreck meetings,

1:50:45culture and arts meetings, and

1:50:47multi-modal transportation meetings, but

1:50:50no recordings about one of the most

1:50:52important and pressing issues facing our

1:50:55communities.

1:50:57These meetings covered data center water

1:50:59and energy use. Again, I ask, why are

1:51:04they not livereamed?

1:51:06It demonstrates a lack of transparency.

1:51:10This is what we feared when you all

1:51:13voted against Mayor Gilbert's proposal

1:51:16to have residents more involved in

1:51:18research during the one-year moratorum.

1:51:22These are the constituents who had

1:51:24already spent a lot of energy and time

1:51:27researching data centers.

1:51:30We were told, "Don't worry, Apex and the

1:51:34EAB could handle it. We see how you're

1:51:37handling it by controlling information.

1:51:41This is unacceptable.

1:51:43Minutes of meetings are not enough.

1:51:46Resident call-in and subcommittee

1:51:49meetings should be combined so that the

1:51:51public can ask experts questions.

1:51:55Moving forward, we expect to see

1:51:57livereamed data center recordings on

1:52:00YouTube as well as links to the homepage

1:52:03on, excuse me, links to minutes,

1:52:06transcripts, and meeting announcements

1:52:08on the homepage of Apex website and also

1:52:11announcements at town council meetings

1:52:13that would be more transparent, which

1:52:16you claim to be. Thank you.

1:52:19>> Thanks for speaking. [applause]

1:52:24And final speaker

1:52:26for now will be Don Cosalino.

1:52:31Don Calino.

1:52:38>> Don Caselino, you have my address and

1:52:40all and my data. Uh, good evening

1:52:43tonight. So, I think we've heard a lot

1:52:45of themes. Uh, we've heard transparency

1:52:48themes, leadership themes, themes that

1:52:51are lacking. Um, you know, just

1:52:54mentioning the consent item, consent

1:52:57agenda item, 27 items. I know we had

1:52:59some changes on it. These are supposed

1:53:01to be routine items. Holly Springs last

1:53:04town council meeting passed $20 million

1:53:07in 20 seconds. You passed whatever you

1:53:09did in less than 10. Okay, that's not

1:53:12governing. That's just dictatorship.

1:53:15Like, I don't know what that is. So,

1:53:18I'll speak to what Randy brought up

1:53:20because I I could go into a lot of

1:53:22directions here, but I think the pecards

1:53:24is a very important principle. So,

1:53:27Carrie had a you know, the auditor

1:53:30report. I'm sure you kind of saw that,

1:53:32right? 2600page

1:53:34report. It's very interesting. So, I'll

1:53:36be interested to see what comes out for

1:53:39Apex actually. Um because we will see

1:53:42that truth brought into the light. It is

1:53:44right now in the shadows. So you

1:53:47mentioned Randy that you h we had 16%

1:53:51Apex had 16%.

1:53:54Right. So what's interesting is those

1:53:57aren't individuals. So what the pecards

1:54:00the people that hold the account they're

1:54:02not a single person. There's there

1:54:04accounts like building inspections,

1:54:07electric, fire, APD, as well as the

1:54:12planning department, cultural arts,

1:54:14things like that. So when you count one

1:54:16card, it's a card for many. So it's

1:54:19actually that metric is very deceptive.

1:54:22I would really love to know the metrics

1:54:24on actual spend because that's really

1:54:26what we want to know, not not be uh

1:54:29distracted with knowing, oh, we're in

1:54:31the range. Well, the real fact of the

1:54:33matter is I do have some data tonight

1:54:36and I thought it would be great to just

1:54:39share a couple of things. I mean,

1:54:40there's thousands of records, but I

1:54:42could just share a couple of things

1:54:44because um on the same day, February

1:54:4618th, 2025,

1:54:48this is um Ry's um so Sandy Burke is

1:54:51your assistant, but this is your card.

1:54:54Um, eggs up up grill $1,58704.

1:55:01It must have been lunch. Chick-fil-A the

1:55:03same day 1,648 and.31.

1:55:07Um,

1:55:09we have a lot of people like Chick-fil-A

1:55:12out of everybody for three years. Fiscal

1:55:14year 23, 24, and 25. $18,000162.34.

1:55:22Uh, Yang's Cleaners.

1:55:24Um, Mr. Coleman,

1:55:27three years of of Yang's Cleaners, $4755

1:55:31cents for 2324

1:55:3310725

1:55:35and then for 2562205

1:55:38Yangs Cleaners Randy 36465.

1:55:42I'll share more next time. Thank you

1:55:44very much. All right, that [applause]

1:55:49so we have eight eight speakers left

1:55:52signed up and we will move those to the

1:55:55um to the end of the regular meeting

1:55:57agenda. So moving now to public

1:55:59hearings.

1:56:00We have annexation number 8312412

1:56:04Olive Chapel Road. [clears throat]

1:56:06>> Applicant has requested continuence to

1:56:08Thursday, September 10th.

1:56:11Right. Applicant has a request to

1:56:14continue.

1:56:14>> All right. Move to continue to Thursday,

1:56:16September 10th.

1:56:17>> All right. We have a motion. Second,

1:56:19Zigman. Any discussion?

1:56:20>> No.

1:56:21>> All in favor say I.

1:56:22>> I.

1:56:23>> Opposed? Motion carries. All right.

1:56:26Okay.

1:56:27>> All right. We'll take a How much time

1:56:29y'all need?

1:56:31>> 10 minutes.

1:56:31>> 10 minutes. All right. We'll be in

1:56:33recess for 10 minutes

1:56:36a chance to get out of here. Yes.

2:08:48I think she went to the bathroom.

2:08:49>> You're live. Okay.

2:08:52>> All right. We're back in session. Thank

2:08:53you so much for the break, the needed

2:08:55break. We'll move now to public hearing

2:08:57two and three together. So, Miss Cal,

2:09:00>> uh, good evening, mayor and council

2:09:02members. U, this is annexation number

2:09:05828. It's 2913 Evans Road. It's

2:09:08associated with reszone case 26 CZ4.

2:09:13So this is located in the south uh

2:09:15western part of the town

2:09:182913 Evans Roads 0.46 acres.

2:09:23The current zoning is rural residential

2:09:27and it's within the ETJ. The applicant

2:09:30is requesting town services.

2:09:33Now we go on to the reszone case.

2:09:37Uh the existing in conditions include a

2:09:40single family and two accessory

2:09:42structures. Um the structures are not

2:09:44historic.

2:09:46The uh current zoning as I stated is

2:09:48rural residential.

2:09:50The um surrounding

2:09:53uh zoning and uses are south and east is

2:09:56medium density conditional zoning

2:09:59and that is the um single family

2:10:02subdivision manners at Bellacasa and to

2:10:04the north and west is rural residential

2:10:06and the use of single family um home and

2:10:10then bacon across the street.

2:10:13The uh proposed zoning district is

2:10:16medium density conditional zoning

2:10:19and the 2045 land use map is medium

2:10:22density um and it is consistent with the

2:10:26proposed zoning. The applicant conducted

2:10:29two neighborhood meetings March 23rd and

2:10:31June 22nd and that's included in your

2:10:34packet. A Wake County public school

2:10:36system letter stated insufficient

2:10:38capacity for future students for middle

2:10:40and high school students. Transportation

2:10:42to schools outside of the area should be

2:10:45anticipated. And then school assignments

2:10:48within the next five years may address

2:10:49concerns at the middle um school grade

2:10:52level. Due to the size of the subject

2:10:55partial, they are exempt from EAB and

2:10:57housing staff did not recommend an

2:10:59affordable housing condition. So the

2:11:02proposed conditions include um for use

2:11:04as single family and accessory apartment

2:11:07and there are four architectural

2:11:09conditions as stated on page two of your

2:11:12staff report.

2:11:14The um proposed

2:11:16uh zoning is exempt from frontage

2:11:18improvements per UDO section 7.5.1B.

2:11:24Required improvements and exemptions um

2:11:26they fall under two for a subdivision

2:11:30plan that does not propose a subdivision

2:11:32into more than four lots and then number

2:11:35three um less than 150 per day.

2:11:39Therefore, um the transportation

2:11:41infrastructure development staff

2:11:43recommends a condition for extension of

2:11:46the curb and sidewalk to avoid potential

2:11:48future impacts if and when a public

2:11:51project for sidewalk connect

2:11:53construction is initiated along Evans

2:11:55Road. So the recommended um condition is

2:11:59the developer shall extend curb and 5-

2:12:02foot concrete sidewalk from the existing

2:12:04terminus south of the property to the

2:12:07north terminus of the property frontage

2:12:09alongs road based on the 27 foot

2:12:11backto-back minor collector street

2:12:13section on the 60oot dedicated ride

2:12:16ofway. The applicant was informed of

2:12:19staff's recommendation and has uh not

2:12:21yet agreed to that condition.

2:12:25So the 2045 land use map classifies the

2:12:28subject properties as medium density

2:12:30residential. The um proposed resoning to

2:12:34medium density residential conditional

2:12:36zoning is consistent with the land use

2:12:39classification.

2:12:40The proposed resoning is reasonable and

2:12:43in the public interest because the

2:12:45proposed resoning provides stricter

2:12:47architectural conditions that the UDO

2:12:50requires and allows the property to be

2:12:52developed in a manner that is consistent

2:12:54with the resident character of the area.

2:12:58uh planning board held their um public

2:13:00hearing on July 13th, 2026 for resoning

2:13:05and unanimously voted to recommend

2:13:07approval of this resoning 26 CZ4 as

2:13:11presented with the uh staff recommended

2:13:13condition. In planning staff does

2:13:16recommend approval of the resoning 26

2:13:18CZ4 with the addition of the staff

2:13:21recommended condition. And if you had

2:13:24any questions for staff and then the

2:13:27is also here.

2:13:29>> Okay. Thank you, Miss Calls, for the

2:13:30presentation. Any questions for

2:13:32>> I I do have a question. Um, per the

2:13:35packets, uh, the applicant would like to

2:13:37build two houses on the on this lot. Uh,

2:13:40so that means that there's a shared

2:13:42driveway. Do we have any concerns on on

2:13:44that?

2:13:49>> Did you have any concerns from T?

2:13:52There's an existing, so they have

2:13:55>> it. It is classified as a minor

2:13:56collector street. Um, so per UDO, they

2:13:58would be allowed to have separate

2:13:59driveways. If they wish, they could have

2:14:01a shared driveway or they could have two

2:14:02separate driveways for the two separate

2:14:04homes.

2:14:05>> Okay.

2:14:08>> All right. Any other questions for

2:14:09staff?

2:14:10>> Um, I do have a question about the uh

2:14:12sewer connectivity as well. So, my

2:14:14understanding is that the applicant

2:14:15would like to tie into the Bellacasa or

2:14:18the the line that runs kind of on the

2:14:19Bellacasa side uh on the right of the

2:14:22picture here. uh but the Bellacasa HOA

2:14:25has not approved crossing their

2:14:28property. So what would happen if that

2:14:31condition or if that suhookup is not

2:14:34feasible for this property?

2:14:36>> Evans Road is the um NC DOT and so the

2:14:40applicant I think he can catch us up on

2:14:43the status of going through NC do and

2:14:46then connecting up with um sewer on

2:14:49Amalfi Place.

2:14:52>> Good evening. Thank you for your time

2:14:53this evening. Uh so like I you've read

2:14:56and heard before um I've tried to reach

2:14:59out to the HOA first just asking for the

2:15:01easement. No strings attached just

2:15:03asking for a 10-ft easement with a drawn

2:15:05plan or a sketch of the plan. Uh was

2:15:08rejected. Uh then again I asked for

2:15:10another month and a half. Uh made an

2:15:12appointment or went to their offices,

2:15:14the management offices and asked to

2:15:15speak with the board. again was rejected

2:15:18uh unanimously even after offering money

2:15:21or some kind of uh you know just money

2:15:24essentially to pay for the easement and

2:15:26you know return it to the way it was uh

2:15:29was before. So now the plan is to pull

2:15:31off the end of a malfi the sewer at the

2:15:33very end and pump it around the corner

2:15:35essentially to the front with a grinder

2:15:37pump. I'm still in the process of

2:15:39working with my engineer to get that

2:15:40settled and finalized and all that. Um

2:15:43but still still up in the air on that

2:15:46end. So

2:15:48>> thank you.

2:15:50>> All right.

2:15:52>> Does the applicant have any other

2:15:54information you want to present? You're

2:15:55good.

2:15:57>> Just that the recommend you know you saw

2:15:59the UDO and the recommendation uh for

2:16:01the extension of the sewer goes against

2:16:04the UDO. That's all. Uh they presented

2:16:06it very well and I appreciate that from

2:16:08the the planning board uh for presenting

2:16:10in that way. So

2:16:11>> thank you Mr. Hall. Appreciate you.

2:16:15>> All right. Any questions?

2:16:19All right, moving on. We'll open up for

2:16:22public hearing comment. No one signed up

2:16:23to speak for both annexation or

2:16:26reszoning. So, it is public hearing for

2:16:29comment is closed and it's back to

2:16:32council for also motion.

2:16:35>> I just want to ask a question kind of

2:16:36the elephant in the room. Could you talk

2:16:38about the sidewalk and the disagreement

2:16:40with staff about um

2:16:43why uh you're decided not to offer the

2:16:45condition because it'll that'll create a

2:16:47gap on Evans Road now, right?

2:16:51>> It would it would not create that gap.

2:16:53As you can see, this sidewalk ends at

2:16:54Bellasa, which that development was in

2:16:57charge of

2:16:58>> in charge of uh taking care of since

2:17:01they had way more than four lots and a

2:17:03lot more people to fund that

2:17:04development. Um there's no sidewalk to

2:17:07the right of that lot going down Evans

2:17:10towards back the um there's no sidewalk

2:17:13on our side of the street for I don't

2:17:16think until the other Bellacosta meets

2:17:17up with it. So there would no be no gap

2:17:19but

2:17:22>> but if that were to develop then there

2:17:23would be a gap because in your property

2:17:24wouldn't have

2:17:25>> there would be but I you guys do have

2:17:26the rightway in the front of our

2:17:28property to do the sidewalk yourselves

2:17:30whenever you choose to and I don't think

2:17:33it's in it's definitely not in the NC do

2:17:36three-year plan and it wasn't anywhere

2:17:38on the next three to five years of Apex

2:17:40as well which is why I'm exempt from the

2:17:42in love fee as Other

2:17:50questions?

2:17:55>> Thank you.

2:18:02>> Discussion.

2:18:03>> That's where we are now.

2:18:04>> Okay. Yeah. Um so um I do um I do worry

2:18:10about this the sidewalk gap uh

2:18:12understanding that there's no sidewalk

2:18:14extending you know further north at this

2:18:16point in time uh were that were those

2:18:18properties to develop you know we would

2:18:20have similar conditions on those

2:18:21properties as well to fill in the the

2:18:23sidewalk gaps. [snorts] This is uh this

2:18:26is what has gotten us into trouble

2:18:28historically where we have these little

2:18:29gaps around town in uh in sidewalk

2:18:32coverage right and that the town

2:18:35retroactively that needs to go uh clean

2:18:37up and and fill in those those sidewalk

2:18:40gaps. So, I am making a motion to

2:18:43approve the uh the annexation and

2:18:47resoning request with the added

2:18:49recommendation by staff to include the

2:18:525oot sidewalk for the length of the

2:18:54property.

2:18:55>> I can't do that.

2:18:56>> Just to be clear, unless the applicant

2:18:59consents to it, it can't be

2:19:00>> Oh, okay. Sorry.

2:19:02>> Did not pick up on that. Thank you.

2:19:05>> Okay. Any any other comments,

2:19:08discussion?

2:19:08>> Can I ask uh transportation like is it

2:19:10true that we have the right away for

2:19:12sidewalk construction including any

2:19:14construction easings that might be

2:19:15necessary?

2:19:20>> I believe you, but you know, trust and

2:19:22verify. [laughter]

2:19:24>> It's a tricky question. Um yeah, we

2:19:26haven't looked into it as a public

2:19:27project in detail as far as how that

2:19:28goes. Typically what we run into is

2:19:31whether we have the rightway or not.

2:19:33it's going to be disruptive to whatever

2:19:35homes are built on that property. So,

2:19:37there would be additional grading. Um

2:19:39probably some need for easements outside

2:19:40of that. If there's drainage, that could

2:19:42impact the property as well. Um so, we

2:19:44prefer um when applicants come in for

2:19:46subdivision and resoning um that we do

2:19:48everything we can to fill gaps. Um so,

2:19:51we're not having to deal with those in

2:19:53the future as a public project um and be

2:19:55disruptive to those future residents

2:19:56that'll be living in those homes. So,

2:19:59hope that answers.

2:20:02Yeah, I guess we don't really know till

2:20:03you unless you have a design, right? But

2:20:04there could be a slope easement and

2:20:06certainly some distance of construction

2:20:08easement where we have to step on the

2:20:10property.

2:20:10>> Uh, correct. Yeah. And there'll be

2:20:12driveways there where we'll have

2:20:13construction going across driveways and

2:20:15there may be issues with those driveway

2:20:17grades at that time we have to deal

2:20:18with. That's right.

2:20:26>> Other discussion.

2:20:29I mean, I I get the I understand and can

2:20:31appreciate the tension on the sidewalk

2:20:33issue because it's we're essentially

2:20:35looking at a gap that will have to be

2:20:38filled at one point in time. And the

2:20:39concern is that,

2:20:42you know, one of two options. We either

2:20:44figure out a way of strong arming an

2:20:46applicant into making this happen or we

2:20:50basically make sure that we've got the

2:20:52things in place right away easements

2:20:55everything else necessary to build or

2:20:57you know close that gap ourselves.

2:20:59That's kind of where we're at on this. I

2:21:01wish we didn't have to be in this

2:21:02position. Um but recognizing as some of

2:21:06these developments as as they have

2:21:08essentially formed themselves, they've

2:21:10created this problem. But I I I reflect

2:21:13back on our larger goal, which is we

2:21:15want to have connectivity, we want to

2:21:17have walkability, and um you know, as

2:21:19long as we've got the ability to have

2:21:21the, you know, the the rideway, we have

2:21:23the ability to to get the additional

2:21:25easements, we have the ability to put

2:21:27the necessary infrastructure in place to

2:21:30make that gap closed. I'm comfortable

2:21:33with that. So I I I'll vote in support

2:21:35of this.

2:21:36>> Do we though? That's the question is

2:21:38like we don't know who might own the

2:21:39property if we want to go build the

2:21:41sidewalk in 15 years. And then we might

2:21:43go to them and say, "Okay, well we need

2:21:44to slope your front yard by 15 ft. We

2:21:47need you to dig up your driveway." And I

2:21:49might say, "No." Oh, no. We'd always

2:21:51have to do I mean, if that if it get to

2:21:53that point, I mean, the rightway

2:21:55probably isn't going to be sufficient

2:21:56enough for us just to close it. We're

2:21:58going to we're probably going to need

2:22:00some additional land. I mean, that's

2:22:04just the nature of how this all works.

2:22:05So, you know, it does it mean that in

2:22:09the future we're going to be, you know,

2:22:10essentially negotiating again with the

2:22:12land owner on these things? I Yeah, I

2:22:15foresee that happening. Um, you know, if

2:22:18the question is, do we essentially say

2:22:21no to this to strongarm the owner to

2:22:24providing the closure of this sort of

2:22:27thing? I'm not sure if I'm there on that

2:22:30on this on on on property of this size.

2:22:32I think we made a policy to to make

2:22:34these exemptions for a reason.

2:22:37>> I uh respectfully disagree like this is

2:22:40exactly how we end up with these donut

2:22:41holes in town, right? And so I think we

2:22:44need to be consistent when we talk about

2:22:47connectivity and and sidewalk

2:22:48construction. Uh you know, this is

2:22:50something that I believe is important

2:22:53for the future connectivity of the town.

2:22:56And uh with that in mind, right, unless

2:22:59the applicant is willing to voluntarily

2:23:02um commit to the additional um

2:23:05recommendation, I will not be voting

2:23:08this report.

2:23:09>> I don't think we're disagreeing. I think

2:23:11what we're saying is you're saying we

2:23:13need to close these gaps. I'm saying we

2:23:14need to close these gaps. I'm saying

2:23:16that if we want to do that to these

2:23:18inevitable sort of conditions, we should

2:23:21just change the policy and not exempt

2:23:22these sort of properties from here on

2:23:24out.

2:23:25>> [snorts]

2:23:25>> Are they exempt from the sidewalk

2:23:27requirement? Like what what is this

2:23:28exemption for? I know there's a small

2:23:30lot,

2:23:31>> but this is still a pud, right?

2:23:33>> They are. If this is not a pud, they are

2:23:34exempt because they are less than four

2:23:37lots. It will ultimately be an exempt

2:23:39subdivision um to create the two lots.

2:23:42And the reason why those standards were

2:23:44set in the UDO, the few exemptions that

2:23:47you had on this slide um was and

2:23:50somewhat based on rough proportionality

2:23:52standards. the cost of the improvement

2:23:54related to um the the benefit of the uh

2:23:59of the development approval. Um staff

2:24:02was still recommending this one to keep

2:24:04in mind it's a cost savings to the town.

2:24:06Get get the sidewalk and curve aside

2:24:09now, but also to avoid the disruption to

2:24:12future residents when this would occur.

2:24:14And um during the planning board

2:24:16meeting, the applicant said he's likely

2:24:18to build one house at a time. he would

2:24:21only have to install the curb and

2:24:22sidewalk one lot at a time. Wouldn't

2:24:24have to do it on both up front. Um so

2:24:28and other things we've discussed with

2:24:29the applicant is at least getting the

2:24:32construction easement in case if he's

2:24:34not willing to do the curb and sidewalk,

2:24:36at least getting a condition to dedicate

2:24:39um an easement so that the town is able

2:24:42to get in there and that issue is

2:24:43resolved and we don't have to think

2:24:45about that in the future. Yeah, we do. I

2:24:47mean, we do look at these case by case

2:24:49and we have to consider the context and

2:24:50what we're presented with. I mean, with

2:24:52this, I mean, you've got adjacent curb

2:24:54and sidewalk already. Um, you're looking

2:24:56at about 100 feet of frontage. So, it's

2:24:5850 feet of frontage per home. Um, it's

2:25:00not what we would consider an extremely

2:25:03long distance to cover for a single

2:25:05family house in terms of typical curb

2:25:07and gutter and sidewalk installation

2:25:09that's included in many subdivisions

2:25:11throughout Apex. Um, I think the the UDO

2:25:13has certain exceptions written to cover

2:25:16a a broad range of issues we might run

2:25:18into. U, but when staff are faced with

2:25:21conditions for reasonzoning, um, whether

2:25:22it's a conditional reasoning like this

2:25:24or a PUD, we consider the case that's

2:25:27presented before us and look at what we

2:25:28think is reasonable and in the public

2:25:30interest. And in our opinion, it's

2:25:32reasonable in the public interest to ask

2:25:33for at least sidewalk extension, but in

2:25:35this case, curb and gutter as well.

2:25:37We're not asking for a four-lane road

2:25:38widening. Um, you know, it's not it's

2:25:40not a thousand feet of road frontage for

2:25:42two units, you know, which would be

2:25:44obviously a disproportional in our

2:25:46opinion. This is relatively limited

2:25:48amount of frontage for this for this

2:25:50case.

2:25:51>> And you got to have a concrete truck out

2:25:52there anyway to do your sidewalk or your

2:25:54uh your your driveway, right?

2:25:56>> Correct.

2:25:57>> It's already there, man.

2:25:58>> You know how much it costs how much it

2:26:00would cost me?

2:26:06I don't want to uh estimate for the

2:26:10applicant, but I think when we've looked

2:26:11at these before, um you know, maybe

2:26:14around $15,000

2:26:17per unit in this case, so maybe um

2:26:2215 to 20. So you're looking probably 30

2:26:24to 40,000 um depending on what's

2:26:28involved. Um,

2:26:32>> yeah.

2:26:32>> So, the number is actually 70. So, I

2:26:34used consulted my engineer 67 330

2:26:38something. We used the Excel spreadsheet

2:26:40that you guys have for the Enlua fee and

2:26:42plugged in the numbers for it. It would

2:26:44cost me to do the same thing for water

2:26:45and sewer, curb and gutter, sidewalk,

2:26:48all the way down my 100 foot stretch as

2:26:50far as they're asking. So, 60 almost

2:26:53$68,000. So,

2:26:55>> from your spreadsheet,

2:26:56>> from your spreadsheet, the one that

2:26:59everyone has access to. I don't know if

2:27:00it's on your website, but my engineer

2:27:02was able to find it and plug those

2:27:04numbers and

2:27:05>> get that over to me.

2:27:08>> Maybe it's a

2:27:09>> maybe it's a utility utility

2:27:11spreadsheet, but

2:27:12>> yeah, I and sorry, I was just saying

2:27:14like you're going to have a concrete

2:27:16team out there for your for your

2:27:17driveway and like they'd be the same

2:27:19guys to do it. So it'd be like the the

2:27:20actual cost would be the delta between

2:27:22the two bids like like when it was take

2:27:24to do the the driveway it'd be whatever

2:27:26and then how much you had this curb and

2:27:27gutter and then there'd be a difference

2:27:28there. That would be the additional.

2:27:30>> Yeah, that makes sense. But you you guys

2:27:31would also have your concrete guys out

2:27:33there to pour whatever because I I know

2:27:35the lady next to me is pretty old and

2:27:37they probably won't be reszoning for a

2:27:39while anyway. So trying to get them to

2:27:41do their concrete next to me to connect

2:27:43and that kind of thing. So

2:27:44>> we wouldn't we would wait for her to

2:27:46sell and then they would have the same

2:27:48conversation with us.

2:27:50>> Who does a lot?

2:27:54>> A lot of money though. But what's where

2:27:56are we headed here?

2:27:57>> I have a question and I don't know where

2:27:59this starts with the applicant for

2:28:01consideration or legal with uh

2:28:03feasibility or applicability. But is uh

2:28:07some sort of match 50% situation is

2:28:11there any I don't know where that

2:28:12question starts. Do I start with legal?

2:28:16Is that a possible I guess it's it'd be

2:28:18a question that I'd be asking the

2:28:20applicant to consider. When you say m

2:28:22imag mag imagine

2:28:23>> like a 5050 of this 7 $68,000

2:28:27um bill that's split in half.

2:28:32>> If we were to agree to paying half of

2:28:35that at the time it's being constructed.

2:28:37Yeah. I don't think you could do that at

2:28:39this time. Um as as essentially as a

2:28:40condition. I sounds like what you're

2:28:42asking is is maybe like a payment of a

2:28:45fee in L type of contribution that the

2:28:47town would use whenever it's

2:28:48constructed. I'm not sure if that's

2:28:50>> I guess. Thank you. Would you consider

2:28:53if we were to figure out some way for

2:28:55there to be a 5050 match on that? I

2:28:57understand the exorbitant cost is

2:28:58$68,000 if that were 34.

2:29:04>> I'm hesitant because the exemptions do

2:29:06read as they do for a reason and they're

2:29:08pretty cut and dry. I don't think it's

2:29:10up to opinion of the council on what

2:29:12gets an exemption, what's not. That's

2:29:13why you list out ABC D, what gets an

2:29:16exemption, what doesn't. I don't think

2:29:17it's a, you know, broad. If you're

2:29:20looking, if you're talking 80 90% of

2:29:22that number, we could I could make a

2:29:24deal for that, but 50% I don't, if I'm

2:29:27exempt, I'm exempt. I don't think

2:29:28there's like a blurry line for the

2:29:30exemptions in my opinion.

2:29:36>> I'm still a little clear on the

2:29:37exemption thing. the exemptions don't

2:29:39don't they apply to like the regular

2:29:41zoning districts or are you saying they

2:29:42apply to a conditional zoning if there's

2:29:46an exemption here?

2:29:48So you're saying it's exempt but we're

2:29:50asking for

2:29:51>> it's it's a broad UDO exemption. So in

2:29:53other words if if this was just coming

2:29:55in as was already zoned coming in as a

2:29:58subdivision with no zoning condition

2:29:59then they would be exempt under our UDO.

2:30:02That's correct. Yeah. But again it's a

2:30:03broad exemption to cover a large amount

2:30:06large array of cases. So when reszoning

2:30:08comes in, we consider the context of

2:30:09what's being reszoned.

2:30:11>> I think it's clear we it's exempt.

2:30:14>> I'm not sure it's too broad because four

2:30:16lots

2:30:17very specific details and I know at the

2:30:20very bottom there's another one for a

2:30:21certain amount of percentage if it's

2:30:23over four lots that kind of thing. So

2:30:26>> um Mr. Mayor, I'd like to request a

2:30:28close session to consult with.

2:30:30>> All right.

2:30:32>> Got a motion. I got close s second. Am I

2:30:35happy? All in favor say I.

2:30:37>> I

2:30:39close session.

2:42:48All right,

2:42:49we're live. Mr. [laughter] Mr. Coleman,

2:42:51we're live.

2:43:00>> Yep.

2:43:03All right, we're back in session.

2:43:06We're back in discussion of this item.

2:43:08And is there any more comments before we

2:43:11move to any possible motion?

2:43:13>> I'll just make the comment that I, you

2:43:15know, I understand and I mean I I fully

2:43:18believe in our desire to make sure that

2:43:20we are closing these sidewalk gaps. I

2:43:22think the problem that we have here is

2:43:24our policy creates this sort of scenario

2:43:27where we have property like this that

2:43:29will fall into an exemption that doesn't

2:43:32require the the the necessary pieces for

2:43:36us to be able to require them to build

2:43:38the sidewalk. To me, that's a

2:43:40legislative issue that we should take a

2:43:42look at down the road, but I don't think

2:43:44that it necessarily fits this scenario

2:43:47right here. So, I'm still voting in

2:43:50support of this and I'll move to um move

2:43:53for approval.

2:43:54>> All right.

2:43:55>> Is that your motion?

2:43:56>> That is my motion.

2:43:57>> Okay.

2:43:57>> For for annexation and for uh the

2:44:00conditional reasoning.

2:44:01>> Okay. So, we have a motion for both

2:44:03items.

2:44:04>> I'll second.

2:44:05>> Second. Move.

2:44:07>> All right. Any further discussion?

2:44:08>> Yeah. Um, I think the fair thing to do

2:44:11here would be um if we feel like this is

2:44:14too small of a project to to ask for the

2:44:17the exemption. Um,

2:44:20in recognition of all of our shared

2:44:22belief in connectivity, if the applicant

2:44:24were to offer us the easement, uh, I was

2:44:27discussing with staff, 30 foot from the

2:44:29center of the roadway plus 10 foot, uh,

2:44:31uh, temporary construction easement

2:44:32would be enough for the town or someone

2:44:34at some point in the future to construct

2:44:36it. And that would save all the issues

2:44:38that I've worried about with um, uh, you

2:44:41know, having to deal with a potential

2:44:44future homeowner who who may not be in

2:44:46support of the project. we just get the

2:44:48ducks lined up and whenever the project

2:44:50comes along, we get added on to it. So,

2:44:52I'm not in support of the motion um

2:44:54unless a uh uh a condition of that

2:44:57nature were to be added to allow the

2:44:59town to uh to to facilitate construction

2:45:02for the town.

2:45:04>> So, they want to amend the motion.

2:45:08>> I mean, that seems like a fair ask. I

2:45:10mean, let's get an idea from the

2:45:11applicant as to whether or not that's

2:45:12something that would [clears throat]

2:45:13probably get them beyond at least get

2:45:16them to three.

2:45:17Yeah, I think we would just need to if

2:45:20you're okay. We're what they're saying

2:45:21is for the dedication of the ride ofway

2:45:25and for a construction easement.

2:45:29>> What What would that look like in terms

2:45:31of my building where I could build that

2:45:33kind of thing when it comes down to

2:45:35Yeah. Setbacks?

2:45:37Am I still 25 ft off the road? And MD

2:45:41is should I be asking Russell that or

2:45:43who who should

2:45:44>> it would be 30 foot from the center of

2:45:45the road would be the standard right

2:45:46away which might already be there and

2:45:49the 10 foot temporary construction is

2:45:50beyond that for us to or whoever to move

2:45:53equipment around it. So you wouldn't

2:45:55>> I could put anything I want there but

2:45:58knowing that you guys could tear it up

2:45:59the day after if you guys were put in

2:46:01the sidewalk.

2:46:02>> In theory my I mean again I'm not a

2:46:04lawyer but like you could put whatever

2:46:05you want there but we could tear it up.

2:46:06So like if it's a bush it's fine and but

2:46:09if it's like a house that might be bad

2:46:12but if it's just like landscaping

2:46:13>> Yeah. Yeah.

2:46:14>> That's the cheap part of like

2:46:16>> has to be a certain distance off my

2:46:17property line.

2:46:18>> It already does right off my property

2:46:20line.

2:46:20>> Yeah. I'm saying yeah and and 10 foot t

2:46:23temporary construction should be

2:46:29>> we don't have the e we can't build the

2:46:30sidewalk at all.

2:46:32>> The the construction easement would not

2:46:34affect the building setback. Building

2:46:35setbacks for measure from the property

2:46:36line.

2:46:37>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

2:46:45>> So it' be 10 ft from my property line

2:46:48easement.

2:46:49>> 10 ft from the end of the rightway for

2:46:51the sidewalk.

2:46:52>> And the purpose of the of the temp

2:46:54construction easement so we could

2:46:55trespass on your property when we build

2:46:56the sidewalk. If the sidewalk easement

2:46:58ends,

2:46:58>> right?

2:46:59>> You can't end the sidewalk there. We got

2:47:00to go on the other side and put stuff in

2:47:02it. So, it's acknowledged that we

2:47:04trample whatever,

2:47:04>> but you don't necessarily need that.

2:47:07You're just guessing. Is that correct?

2:47:09>> Uh,

2:47:09>> so like you could build the sidewalk as

2:47:11is now, but you might need another 10 ft

2:47:14for grading. Is that how I kind of

2:47:16understood it earlier?

2:47:17>> That's possible. And but we're not

2:47:18asking for a grading or a drain

2:47:20easement, which is something else.

2:47:22>> Um, I was advised that the property is

2:47:24pretty flat. Probably won't need any

2:47:25major grading.

2:47:31>> Yeah. temporary construction would allow

2:47:33for grading. Um so and that's that's

2:47:36correct. There's a ditch there. So we

2:47:37would have to change the grade in order

2:47:39to add curb um and install the sidewalk.

2:47:41So we think that 10 ft uh beyond the 30

2:47:44foot line beyond the rightway would be

2:47:46enough to construct the sidewalk.

2:47:47>> It shouldn't impact the setback. The

2:47:48setback is much larger than 10 feet and

2:47:53>> setback's 25 ft from the property line.

2:47:56>> We won't go with no easement just as is.

2:48:02kind of confused by what you're saying.

2:48:04>> We we just won't we won't agree to the

2:48:06fee. We'll just keep it as is where you

2:48:08guys have your right away to do it how

2:48:10you want to.

2:48:11>> I think

2:48:15the motion. Okay. So, there's no

2:48:18condition right there.

2:48:19>> Okay. Okay.

2:48:20>> All right. So, we do have a motion and a

2:48:23second. We're still in discussion. Uh if

2:48:26there's no further discussion, we can

2:48:27take a vote. Any

2:48:30discussion?

2:48:32>> All right, we have a motion to second.

2:48:33All in favor say I.

2:48:35>> I.

2:48:38Okay.

2:48:44>> All right. And what happens if this is

2:48:48denied?

2:48:49May I ask staff what can the applicant

2:48:52do?

2:48:54>> Just start over.

2:48:56>> And what does that look like?

2:48:57>> Coming back. start the process all over

2:48:59again.

2:49:00>> Correct. It would be a whole new

2:49:02resoning if he wanted to do that.

2:49:04>> So, a 10 foot would satisfy

2:49:08one more vote. Is that what I'm hearing?

2:49:14>> Yes,

2:49:15>> I think it would make a difference.

2:49:17>> Okay.

2:49:20>> Do I do it right now?

2:49:22>> Withdraw your motion.

2:49:22>> We can. So, I'll have to withdraw my

2:49:25motion and then I'll have to amend it to

2:49:27include the condition.

2:49:29>> Can we can we withdraw a motion when

2:49:31there's already did a vote on it?

2:49:34>> Can we just postpone?

2:49:35>> There were two eyes. Sorry.

2:49:36>> Postpone the vote until after the next

2:49:39um

2:49:41the next reasoning so we can get that

2:49:43language straight.

2:49:45>> Okay.

2:49:45>> With the applicant.

2:49:47>> Okay. So, so I guess technically we're

2:49:50just postponing until

2:49:52>> after,

2:49:53>> right?

2:49:53>> Right. After the next reasoning.

2:49:56>> Okay.

2:50:04>> I think we've got a a motion and a

2:50:06second and a vote on the table. So, the

2:50:07question is

2:50:09what what are y'all doing? I mean, are

2:50:11y'all taking another motion to delay?

2:50:14Well, I

2:50:15>> you did a motion and a second and then

2:50:17you called for a vote,

2:50:18>> right?

2:50:19>> So,

2:50:20>> amend the motion.

2:50:23>> You table it, but

2:50:25>> typically when you table something,

2:50:26you're not in the middle of a vote like

2:50:28it's before you start voting,

2:50:30>> but you can motion a table still.

2:50:32>> You've got a [clears throat] vote and a

2:50:33motion. You could continue on the motion

2:50:35and at the same meeting you could

2:50:37reconsider your vote.

2:50:40>> So, right now,

2:50:41>> okay. So, so we'll complete the votes.

2:50:43complete the vote and then reconsider

2:50:45when he offers a condition.

2:50:46>> Right.

2:50:46>> You could.

2:50:48>> Okay.

2:50:49>> Yeah. Because it's it feels like we've

2:50:50called for something.

2:50:51>> Okay.

2:50:54>> Oh, we can.

2:50:56>> So, we got a motion and a second

2:50:58>> and you were calling for the vote.

2:51:00>> I heard two eyes.

2:51:01>> Right.

2:51:03>> We haven't called for the naysay yet.

2:51:05>> Right.

2:51:05>> And then later,

2:51:06>> so we need to call for the nays and then

2:51:08we'll reconsider it

2:51:09>> and we'll be a motion for

2:51:12reconsideration.

2:51:13Okay.

2:51:18>> Call for

2:51:18>> Are you calling for the nays?

2:51:19>> Call for the nays.

2:51:20>> Call for the nays. And then we'll do a

2:51:22motion for reconsideration.

2:51:23>> All right.

2:51:24>> Any oppose? No.

2:51:25>> No. No.

2:51:27>> So that's two, three.

2:51:30>> And now make a motion for

2:51:32reconsideration.

2:51:33>> We should probably wait

2:51:34>> after. Well, I mean, yeah, after. I'm

2:51:36not doing it now.

2:51:37>> You can't do it because you voted,

2:51:38>> right? Yeah. Yeah. One of the Yeah, one

2:51:40of the three has to do it.

2:51:44Okay.

2:51:47>> Okay.

2:51:49Sorry. I just want to make sure

2:51:50procedurally we were

2:51:52>> Yeah.

2:51:55>> Are we going to the next?

2:51:57>> Yep.

2:51:59>> All right.

2:52:02>> All right. We're going to public hearing

2:52:03four. Reson case 26 CZ03

2:52:06SD.

2:52:08>> Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Town Council.

2:52:09Bruce Fen, Planer 3 with the town of

2:52:11Apex. Today before you, we have a

2:52:13amendment to the Vidia SD conditional

2:52:14zoning plan in order to bring in the

2:52:16Wake Tech campus. We'll go over this

2:52:18project here.

2:52:21As you're familiar, uh, Vidia campus

2:52:23VIDA is located near 55 Old US1 and 540

2:52:28in the southern southwestern area,

2:52:29southeastern area. This is the parcel in

2:52:32question that's seeking the resoning

2:52:33right now. This is the future site for

2:52:35the Wake Tech campus. Should this be

2:52:36approved?

2:52:38It's about 34 acres of real property

2:52:40located here along Highway 55 and

2:52:41Technology Drive uh adjacent to the Dell

2:52:44Technologies building.

2:52:47The current zoning, this is currently

2:52:48zoned under the SD conditional zoning

2:52:50district. Uh the applicant is seeking to

2:52:52exemptions and some amendments to the SD

2:52:54plan to allow them to build the campus

2:52:56style uh aspect of element that is

2:52:58custom with college campuses. When the

2:53:01original SD plan was approved in 2011,

2:53:04uh the idea was that this area would be

2:53:06developed in a grid style pattern which

2:53:07is non-conducive to a campus style

2:53:09development

2:53:12proposed. It would still be the uh

2:53:14sustainable development conditional

2:53:16zoning as shown here. The land future

2:53:18land use map. This is consistent. Uh

2:53:20this area still calls for the regional

2:53:22mixed use or the medium density

2:53:24residential, high density residential,

2:53:25office employment, commercial services

2:53:27and industrial employment.

2:53:30the summary of the proposed amendments

2:53:31that are included in your packet today.

2:53:33So number one, uh the thorough affairs

2:53:34and sidewalks. It would allow private

2:53:36thorough affairs sidewalks to serve the

2:53:37Wake Tech campus while maintaining

2:53:39public access easements along private

2:53:40sidewalks and adjacent to public

2:53:42streets. Again, the B development

2:53:44brigade requirements. It exempts the

2:53:45campus from those requirements to

2:53:47accommodate future redevelopment into

2:53:48the A grid urban style pattern, allowing

2:53:50it to have more flexibility as they

2:53:51build out the campus. Number three, the

2:53:54community design standards. It exempts

2:53:55the campus from block perimeter

2:53:57limitations and certain public street

2:53:58frontage requirements. Applicable lot

2:54:00frontage standards will default to the

2:54:01UDO. Number four, the building

2:54:03standards. It exempts or will modify

2:54:05standards related to the lot dimensions,

2:54:07building disposition, setbacks, frontage

2:54:09buildout, and multiple principal

2:54:10buildings and principal interest

2:54:11orientation.

2:54:14Number five, the building configuration

2:54:15and frontage standards. It exempts

2:54:18requirements for private frontage types,

2:54:19corner lots, stepbacks, express lines,

2:54:21and parking layer placement that would

2:54:23be appropriate in the former uh grid

2:54:25style pattern. Number six, for the

2:54:27glazing requirements and maintains

2:54:29glazing requirements on public facing

2:54:30facades while allowing glazing on

2:54:32non-visible facades interior to the site

2:54:34to be averaged but still meet the

2:54:36overall uh percentage requirements.

2:54:38Number seven, street screens. It removes

2:54:40the requirement for street screens where

2:54:42no building fronts the street. Number

2:54:44eight, parking and driveway access

2:54:46allows driveway widths to comply with

2:54:48town standards or TRC approval.

2:54:52Number nine, there are tables in the SD

2:54:54plan. This exempts the campus from

2:54:55several tables related to again the

2:54:57design standards and it modifies table

2:54:5914 to provide flexibility for the block

2:55:01layout setbacks and building disposition

2:55:03that would be more conducive to the

2:55:04campus style setup. And number 10, it

2:55:07will add vocational school as a

2:55:08permitted use for the campus. As of

2:55:10right now, this this use is not a

2:55:12permitted use. So they would need to dis

2:55:13part of the resoning in order to build

2:55:15the campus there. And number 11, general

2:55:17campus standard requires that all lots

2:55:19within the campus to front on a public

2:55:20street. So this they'll have private

2:55:22streets internally, but they'll have

2:55:23public streets. They'll be fronting on

2:55:24the main drive there.

2:55:27So again, this is the area. They did

2:55:29hold their two neighborhood meetings

2:55:30this year, one in February, one in June.

2:55:32It went before your uh planning board on

2:55:34July 13th where they voted unanimous

2:55:36unanimously to recommend the approval of

2:55:37the resoning as proposed. uh planning

2:55:40staff is in favor of this recommendation

2:55:41as well.

2:55:43Um the statement reasonist for this is

2:55:45the 2045 land use map subjects property

2:55:47as the regional mixeduse as we stated

2:55:49before and that the proposed amendments

2:55:52to sustainable development conditional

2:55:53zoning are consistent with that land use

2:55:55classification. The proposed resoning is

2:55:57reasonable in the public interest

2:55:58because it recognizes the changes needed

2:56:00due to the constructions and the

2:56:01conditions that have changed since 2011

2:56:03and will provide the flexibility in

2:56:05design standards needed to construct the

2:56:07proposed Western Wake campus for the

2:56:09technical community college. Uh the

2:56:11applicant has a presentation for you as

2:56:13well. Staff is available to answer any

2:56:14questions you may have.

2:56:16>> Any questions for

2:56:21you?

2:56:24Mr. Carpenter, how are you?

2:56:29>> Thanks, Bruce.

2:56:31>> Good evening, mayor, members of council.

2:56:32Matthew Carpenter with Parker Poe, 301

2:56:35Fateville Street in Raleigh here this

2:56:37evening on behalf of Wake Tech. Got

2:56:40several folks with me this evening. Um,

2:56:43Scott Baltimore with HKS, our architect.

2:56:45We've got Kathy Matro with Wake Tech,

2:56:48Matt Smith with Wake Tech. Um, James Een

2:56:52with McAdams, our civil engineer,

2:56:54Bronwin Reus with McAdams, Sarah Vanvery

2:56:57with McAdams, and Jordan Balderson with

2:56:59McAdams. So, we've got a big group of

2:57:01people here um to answer any technical

2:57:03questions you have about the amendments,

2:57:06and we're excited to present the

2:57:07amendments to you, which will allow a

2:57:10permanent Wake Tech campus to be located

2:57:12in Apex um in Veridia. and it it really

2:57:16capitalizes on the momentum that that

2:57:18you've already seen in Veridia with the

2:57:20announcement of the children's hospital.

2:57:21Um, and so I think as you'll see, it

2:57:23comes at a perfect time to to try to

2:57:25continue that momentum in town. Um, and

2:57:28I do want to thank the professional

2:57:30staff with the town. Um, as you can see

2:57:33in your packet, I think there's 300

2:57:35pages of Veridia documents in there.

2:57:38This zoning district is unlike any other

2:57:40in Apex. Um, and it's really taken a ton

2:57:42of time and investment from the town

2:57:45working with our planning team at

2:57:46McAdams to go through these documents

2:57:48and understand what works with with this

2:57:51campus type environment and what

2:57:52doesn't. Um, and I think they are a big

2:57:55reason why, you know, you're seeing some

2:57:56of these big projects come to Apex. Um,

2:57:59because they add predictability and and

2:58:01a willingness to to help get things

2:58:02done. So, we appreciate their efforts.

2:58:05Um, and at this point, I'd like to hand

2:58:06it off to Kathy to to speak a little bit

2:58:09about um the vision for the campus and

2:58:11and and why Wake Tech chose Apex.

2:58:17>> Good evening, Mayor Gilbert and town

2:58:19council members. Thank you for taking

2:58:21the time to consider this zoning

2:58:23request. I'm Kathy Monttero, director of

2:58:26facilities design and construction at

2:58:27Wake Tech. Last September, President

2:58:30Walls and Vice President Scott had the

2:58:33pleasure of sharing with you the master

2:58:35plan to build the weight tech new

2:58:37Conland Western Way campus right here in

2:58:40Apex in the Vidia development. We've

2:58:43been very active over the past year

2:58:46engaging internal and external

2:58:48stakeholders to convert our mission and

2:58:50vision into programs and plans. We're

2:58:54wrapping up the design development phase

2:58:56of the project with our HKS architect

2:58:59team and Scansa who's also here tonight.

2:59:02We're on track to begin the construction

2:59:04next summer of 2027

2:59:06with an anticipated opening in spring of

2:59:092030.

2:59:11This project is fully funded by Wake

2:59:13County and fully approved by the board

2:59:15of trustees. Our first building will be

2:59:18a four-story

2:59:20125,000q foot classroom and laboratory

2:59:23facility called Fuji Film Hall.

2:59:27It will feature 20 classrooms and labs

2:59:29for university transfer associate degree

2:59:32programs, a full complement of student

2:59:36resources, conference and meeting

2:59:38spaces, an entrepreneurship of small

2:59:41business center and 12 biotech industry

2:59:44simulation labs. It's going to be an

2:59:47amazing facility. Amazing. We're very

2:59:50excited to bring this new campus to Apex

2:59:54with numerous biotech companies already

2:59:56operating in Southern Western Wake and

3:00:00more on the horizon along with the new

3:00:02North Carolina Children's Hospital. Wake

3:00:05Tech's position here in Apex has become

3:00:09even more strategic, not only for the

3:00:11town and the county, but also for the

3:00:14whole region.

3:00:15A lot of eyes are on this important

3:00:17project. Wayk's new western way campus

3:00:20will bring educational and economic

3:00:23opportunity to the citizens of Wake

3:00:25County, our apex, and provide much

3:00:29needed workforce training to the

3:00:31companies who have chosen Wake County as

3:00:33their home. This zoning amendment is a

3:00:36critical next step for our property

3:00:38development. This will pave the way for

3:00:41Wake Tech to bring this beautiful,

3:00:43thriving, and innovative college campus

3:00:46to Apex, North Carolina. I want to thank

3:00:49you, mayor, and the town council

3:00:51members, and also to your fantastic town

3:00:55staff for welcoming Wake Tech to Apex.

3:00:57We appreciate your leadership,

3:00:59partnership, and shared vision with Wake

3:01:02Tech. I'll now turn it over to Matthew

3:01:04so he can share the details of the

3:01:06zoning request. Thank you again.

3:01:08>> Thank you.

3:01:12Um, as Bruce mentioned, really the the

3:01:15purpose behind uh or the the reason we

3:01:18need the amendments is because the

3:01:19original Vidia zoning was set up um to

3:01:23mandate a more urban downtown street

3:01:26grid type development. Um, and there are

3:01:28other sections of Veridia that are are

3:01:30developing with that typology. Um but

3:01:33and and so in that way these amendments

3:01:35are very similar to what you approved

3:01:37for the children's hospital last

3:01:38December. There are there is one

3:01:41important difference. Um those

3:01:43amendments if you remember included a

3:01:46group of amendments that applied only to

3:01:48the children's hospital property and

3:01:50then also a group that applied to the

3:01:52entire Vidia SD plan. Um these

3:01:55amendments that we're we're talking

3:01:56about tonight will only apply to the

3:01:58Wake Tech campus. So, so we're not

3:02:00opening up the entire Vidia zoning. Um,

3:02:03we're tailoring some of these standards

3:02:05to to allow a more campus style

3:02:07environment. And as Bruce mentioned, um,

3:02:11we're also making as a permitted use

3:02:13vocational school, which was not part of

3:02:15the original uh, permitted use table in

3:02:18in the Vidia SD plan.

3:02:21And then on on the right of your screen

3:02:23here, you can see the the master plan,

3:02:25the sort of aerial 2D master plan that

3:02:28we've been working on with staff. And I

3:02:30believe this was presented to you

3:02:31previously by Wake Tech. Um, and so it

3:02:34gives you an idea of of why we need

3:02:36these amendments. It's a campus style

3:02:38environment um with large buildings to

3:02:41facilitate uh lab space, learning um you

3:02:45know, community gathering spaces for for

3:02:47students. And so it's much different

3:02:48than than what you saw was envisioned in

3:02:51some of the very early Vidia documents

3:02:53in 2011. Um and so some of the changes

3:02:56that that we're requesting, I won't go

3:02:58through all of them. They're all as I

3:03:00mentioned in your agenda. We're allowing

3:03:01for private roads and sidewalks. Um an

3:03:04exemption from the urban street grid

3:03:06requirement, block perimeter

3:03:08requirement, which is another mechanism

3:03:10to require grided streets. um and also

3:03:13an exemption from the urban building

3:03:16frontage requirements.

3:03:19Um and so just to continue some some of

3:03:22those amendments, we've included a

3:03:23rendering on the right side of your

3:03:24screen to give you an idea of what it

3:03:26might look like. Um we're also asking to

3:03:29to limit the glazing requirement to

3:03:32facades that are visible from the public

3:03:34right away. So, um, the glazing

3:03:37requirement, you typically see those

3:03:38applied to like downtown storefronts

3:03:41where you want, you know, a high level

3:03:43of transparency at the street to be able

3:03:45to see in. Um, that doesn't work the

3:03:47same way when it's applied to these much

3:03:49larger buildings. And so, we we still

3:03:51want there to be um a level of

3:03:53transparency in the design. Not every

3:03:56side of the building um is practically

3:03:59needs to to meet that requirement. And

3:04:01so, we've asked for relief there. Um,

3:04:03there are also a host of tables that

3:04:05that require urban g grid, street grid

3:04:08and building placement standards uh that

3:04:10sort of reiterate the the written

3:04:12standards and we're asking for an

3:04:13exemption from those. Um, but I do want

3:04:16to be clear that that you know these

3:04:18changes do not mean uh that the campus

3:04:21won't include highquality design. So um

3:04:24this is a view from the main road that

3:04:27comes into Veridia off Highway 55. Uh,

3:04:30and so you can see the the building

3:04:31design that HKS has been working on um

3:04:34for several months, if not longer. From

3:04:36from this view, you can see the the

3:04:38storm water pond that that's trying to

3:04:40be used as an amenity there um to to

3:04:42create sort of a more natural view as

3:04:44you drive down the main street. Um, and

3:04:46then I've got a couple of other views,

3:04:48too. This is a view from Technology

3:04:51Drive. So, it's on the other side. Um,

3:04:54if you see can see on the left side of

3:04:56your screen, that's the pond I just

3:04:57showed in the other view. Um, so you can

3:04:59see here, you know, it gives you an idea

3:05:01of how students might gather on campus,

3:05:04um, and why the the layout of the

3:05:07buildings, sidewalks, and and gathering

3:05:09spaces is so important.

3:05:13And then I wanted to include this

3:05:14rendering just to show um, you know,

3:05:16everything that's taking place in Vidia.

3:05:19I I think you know what you can see here

3:05:21is you know even though the original

3:05:23vision of Vidia has changed some um I

3:05:26think what the town is going to get you

3:05:28know 5 10 years from now [clears throat]

3:05:30um is is a large regional mixeduse

3:05:33development uh that that meets a lot of

3:05:35the economic development goals of the

3:05:37town. Um you'll have you know some of

3:05:40these industrial life science and uh

3:05:43campus users. you'll have the children's

3:05:45hospital and then you'll have a

3:05:46community college here to train

3:05:48employees to work um in those facilities

3:05:51and stay in Apex. Uh and so we with that

3:05:55um the planning board unanimously

3:05:56recommended approval, staff recommends

3:05:59approval, and we respectfully request

3:06:00your approval. Thank you.

3:06:03>> All right. Thank you,

3:06:04>> Mr. Carpenter. Before you sit down, um,

3:06:06can you talk to me a little bit more

3:06:08about the, uh, the glazing relief that

3:06:10you're looking for because I'm got a

3:06:12kind of a hard time reconciling that

3:06:13with the renderings that you're showing

3:06:15which like seemingly easily met some

3:06:18meet some of these conditions. Sure. I'd

3:06:19like asking for relief there,

3:06:21>> Scott or Bronnin to to speak on that.

3:06:24>> Um, I believe and and they can correct

3:06:27me if I'm wrong, but I believe the

3:06:28glazing requirements as written would

3:06:30apply to all sides of the building. And

3:06:32so it's an issue for you know them

3:06:35applying on every side not just the

3:06:37front facade.

3:06:39>> Hey Bronin Reus. Um so the way the

3:06:43standard has been modified those glazing

3:06:45requirements apply to every public right

3:06:49ofway facing facade and then every other

3:06:52facade. The same requirement applies but

3:06:55it's applied as an average. And so that

3:06:58just gives a little more flexibility to

3:07:00give and take on different facades that

3:07:02aren't facing the public right ofway.

3:07:05Does that make sense?

3:07:07I still have a hard time kind of

3:07:08reconciling that with the buildings as

3:07:10as rendered here, right? Because there

3:07:12seem to be glass all around. So I'm just

3:07:14wondering where, you know, where this

3:07:16condition helps you.

3:07:18>> Yes. So, the specific facade, and Scott

3:07:22maybe knows, but um there's one

3:07:24[clears throat] specific facade that has

3:07:26um loading. So, it's like a

3:07:29serviceoriented

3:07:31facade that's going to require the

3:07:34loading of large vehicles. And so,

3:07:35that's limiting the um ability for that

3:07:38transparency on that specific facade. I

3:07:41don't remember exactly which one it is.

3:07:43>> Hello, Scott Baltimore. Nice to meet you

3:07:45all. Um the facade is kind of the left

3:07:48side of that building that you're seeing

3:07:49in the foreground. And so in order for

3:07:51the building to function properly, there

3:07:53will be be loading and servicing

3:07:54happening on the lowest level. And so

3:07:56there is some grade change there and

3:07:58screening that will be provided. So that

3:08:00that's not visible. But as loading and

3:08:02service areas go, there's not the same

3:08:04level of transparency that you would

3:08:06have in other office spaces or classroom

3:08:07spaces. So that's the only uh caveat

3:08:10just to the layout of the building as it

3:08:12is currently.

3:08:12>> Okay. Thank you.

3:08:13>> Mhm. Any [clears throat]

3:08:15other questions?

3:08:19All right, hearing none, we'll open up a

3:08:21public hearing for comment. Um, the

3:08:23first speaker,

3:08:26always speaker, Elizabeth St.

3:08:41Elizabeth Raet, 3113 Friendship Road,

3:08:44Mayor and Town Council. Good evening.

3:08:47Tonight, I ask you to carefully look at

3:08:49what Wake Tech is actually requesting,

3:08:51not simply who the applicant is or

3:08:53whether we support having Wake Tech in

3:08:55Apex. Wake Tech selected the 34 acres

3:08:59within Vidia sustainable development

3:09:01plan which came with ex with an existing

3:09:05zoning framework and development

3:09:07standards. Wake Tech had the opportunity

3:09:10and the responsibility to perform its

3:09:12due diligence and determine whether its

3:09:14proposed campus could reasonably comply

3:09:17with those requirements. But what in

3:09:19what is in front of you tonight is very

3:09:21different. The resoning document says

3:09:24the property will retain the existing

3:09:26conditions of Vidia resoning except for

3:09:29a lengthy list of modifications. Wake

3:09:31Tech is requesting exemptions from

3:09:34governing block design and future

3:09:36conversion of Bgrid areas to A grid

3:09:39development. It seeks exemptions from

3:09:42building disposition, lot dimensions,

3:09:45building frontage, principal entrance,

3:09:47private frontages, building confir

3:09:50configuration, parking related

3:09:52standards, and other requirements. The

3:09:55requests continue. The campus will be

3:09:57completely exempt from table 1, 7, 8, 9,

3:10:01and 13 with additional modifications

3:10:04from other tables. Most significantly,

3:10:07the request says that this property will

3:10:09be exempt from form-based code standards

3:10:12for the village center in table 15D. The

3:10:16question should not be how do we change

3:10:18the zoning to fit weight tan wake tech

3:10:21plan. The question should be before

3:10:24approving these changes, what did the

3:10:26original zoning objectives intend to

3:10:29protect with these requirements?

3:10:32With so many requests, at what point do

3:10:34you have development that can no longer

3:10:36meet even the spirit of the original

3:10:40sustainable development district? By

3:10:42approving these requests, are you

3:10:44setting a precedent, triggering a domino

3:10:46effect for every other parcel in the

3:10:48district?

3:10:51At what point do you no longer have what

3:10:53the development was intended to be? I'm

3:10:56cutting my comment slightly short to

3:10:58bring up one other thing. Here we have

3:11:00an applicant who is exempt, but yet

3:11:03you're asking for him to give a 10-foot

3:11:06extra right away. Here's an applicant

3:11:09who is not exempt and asking for a long

3:11:13list of exemptions. We do not have

3:11:15equity in our approval process. We do

3:11:20not have equity at all. And that's the

3:11:23reason why I'm standing here. I know

3:11:25you're going to approve it. I saw the

3:11:27other approvals done. You got the big

3:11:29money, the shiny toy, but where is there

3:11:31equity? That is a question of your

3:11:33ethics and how you uphold how you do

3:11:36your duties. I would like for you to

3:11:38reflect on that. Thank you.

3:11:40>> Thank you for speaking. All right.

3:11:43Public hearing for comment is closed.

3:11:45>> Motion to approve.

3:11:47>> Second.

3:11:49>> I have a motion and a second. Any

3:11:51discussion?

3:11:53Yeah, I will I'll [clears throat] note

3:11:55that I think when we saw this original

3:11:58proposal and I think the reason why the

3:12:01Vidia

3:12:03the entire Vidia component has a has a

3:12:07specialized zoning

3:12:09um district is because we recognize that

3:12:11as we're putting a number of the things

3:12:14within this each one of them each one of

3:12:16them is going to have a separate kind of

3:12:18need a separate sort of response. Um

3:12:21when Wake Tech initially came into this

3:12:25entire project, I think all of us kind

3:12:27of envisioned that this was going to

3:12:29look like a campus. We and this is one

3:12:32of those things where we kind of

3:12:33understood from the beginning that as

3:12:36Vidia's planning and as the other

3:12:38planning t takes place, there were going

3:12:40to be adjustments along the way. I don't

3:12:42see this as being an inconsistency with

3:12:44what the original planning and the

3:12:46original goal and the original vision

3:12:48was because when we looked at the

3:12:49original vi vision, what we looked at

3:12:51was a campus. We didn't necessarily look

3:12:55at it as fitting into the town/ urban

3:12:58grid plan that the rest of Veridia was

3:13:00going to align to. So, this is one of

3:13:03those anticipated sort of adjustments

3:13:06along the way um that we knew was going

3:13:09to be taking place. I don't have a big

3:13:12concern about we're looking at a

3:13:14slippery slope with regard to

3:13:16adjustments every single time for every

3:13:18single applicant because I think what

3:13:20we're looking at here is we had an

3:13:22understanding and the whole reason why

3:13:23this district was created is we

3:13:25understood that as various components

3:13:28started to come in there were going to

3:13:29necessarily need to be adjustments along

3:13:32the way. These adjustments are built

3:13:34towards making this campus look like a

3:13:37campus which is something that we

3:13:39ultimately I think from the very

3:13:41beginning understood this was was the

3:13:43intent. So I see what we're seeing now

3:13:45is much more aligned with our overall

3:13:47intent of what we were looking for. you

3:13:51know, we're, you know, regardless of

3:13:52whether you're Wake Tech or you are, you

3:13:54know, UNCC,

3:13:56when we start thinking about a campus,

3:13:58there's a certain view that we need. Um,

3:14:01and that's to cater to the students,

3:14:03that's to cater to the missions, and

3:14:05this this letter, this this, you know,

3:14:08application seems to be consistent with

3:14:10that. So, I I I'm more than happy to

3:14:12support this.

3:14:15>> All right. Any other discussion?

3:14:17Yeah, I just want to note that um

3:14:21it seems to me as I've followed this

3:14:23process over several years that this

3:14:26this layer is essentially a finer grit

3:14:29of sandpaper as you're refining and and

3:14:32closing in on a project. And when we

3:14:35talk about precedent setting, I am

3:14:38entirely comfortable setting precedent

3:14:40for community college campuses and other

3:14:43college campuses to come to Apex. and

3:14:45that is a precedent um I'm comfortable

3:14:47with. So I just wanted to speak in

3:14:49support of the project and uh the campus

3:14:52and I appreciate all of the folks

3:14:54especially staff working so hard on it.

3:14:57>> Other discussion

3:15:02>> hearing none.

3:15:04All in favor say I.

3:15:06>> I motion carries unanimously.

3:15:10>> All right. Move now to R1 budget a

3:15:12minute number two.

3:15:15Thank you.

3:15:16>> You want to go back to the

3:15:17>> Yes. item. Okay.

3:15:18>> All right. That's right.

3:15:23>> Okay. Um we have the the new condition

3:15:27that we're um proposing. Developer shall

3:15:31dedicate public rideway along the Evans

3:15:33Road property frontage 30 feet from

3:15:36rideway center line and dedicate a 10-

3:15:38foot um temporary construction easement

3:15:40for future construction of curb and

3:15:42gutter and 5-ft sidewalk based on the

3:15:45minor collector street typical section.

3:15:49>> All right. And this is good to let us

3:15:52construct you believe high probability

3:15:54we construct any additional easement

3:15:55someday.

3:15:57>> All right. Great. I'll uh I'll move then

3:16:00to reconsider our earlier vote on

3:16:02annexation 8 to8 and reszoning case 26

3:16:07CZ

3:16:0904 um I was on the winning side of that

3:16:13f um asking for reconsideration

3:16:16>> point of order do I doesn't the losing

3:16:19side have to make the motion [laughter]

3:16:21>> winning the winning side okay

3:16:23>> all right so motion second all right any

3:16:27discussion on

3:16:28All in favor say I.

3:16:29>> I.

3:16:29>> Oppos.

3:16:30>> All right. Motion carries.

3:16:33>> I make a motion to approve the resoning.

3:16:37>> There's a number uh number 26 CZ 04

3:16:40annexation and reszoning of 2913 Evans

3:16:43Road with the added condition.

3:16:45>> We have a motion.

3:16:46>> Second.

3:16:47>> Second.

3:16:48>> Any discussion? All in favor say I. I.

3:16:52Oppos. Motion carries.

3:16:57All right. All right.

3:17:05>> I think Jessica's on vacation, so I will

3:17:07be taking this one. [laughter] You have

3:17:09before you budget amendment uh that we

3:17:11spoke about earlier. Uh Joanna in her

3:17:14presentation alluded to I think actually

3:17:16our chief alluded to it as well. Uh we

3:17:18had a a bid process uh selected from the

3:17:22vendors and now this is the the budget

3:17:23request. The contract is still in the

3:17:25works. Legal is working with the vendor

3:17:27on that. This is the budget amendment

3:17:29for $170,000

3:17:32for the downtown site redevelopment

3:17:34market analysis and feasibility study.

3:17:40If you have any questions, I would ask

3:17:42uh Joanna to maybe come up and help us

3:17:44with those, but we may not have any yet.

3:17:47>> I have one just for clarification for

3:17:49the record. I just want to um and thank

3:17:53you Miss Helms um for your hard work on

3:17:56this project and and I was just going to

3:17:58ask can you talk for a moment about um

3:18:02first off really just a quick recap on

3:18:04what we expect to [clears throat] um be

3:18:06delivered to us and then also um is this

3:18:10within

3:18:12uh the general um reasonable estimate

3:18:15for rates um from architeists in 2026?

3:18:19six. It's It's my understanding. I mean,

3:18:21we had a very different rate when we

3:18:23hired Stantech in 2017, 2018, 19. Um, so

3:18:27I just want to get clarity on that.

3:18:28Thank you.

3:18:29>> Right. So, [clears throat] I'll answer

3:18:30your first question first. Um and so the

3:18:32the entire scope of the project I

3:18:34thought was really well defined in that

3:18:36opening statement which I know you have

3:18:38a copy of but um it will just be a

3:18:40process whereby um there'll be a a very

3:18:43robust public engagement process with

3:18:46lots of variety of types of engagement

3:18:48times dates etc. Um and a lot of very

3:18:51unique things that the consultant is

3:18:53proposing to get folks engaged. Um so

3:18:56that'll be one part of the process. The

3:18:58other part of the process will be

3:18:59actually the market analysis to study

3:19:02the market to see what kinds of

3:19:05um functions in a site at at that

3:19:08location at this date and time would be

3:19:10successful. So that would be a part of

3:19:12it and then the feasibility of how that

3:19:13would come about. Um another component

3:19:16of the study would be to look at a

3:19:19public private partnership. So, this

3:19:20would be something that, you know, we

3:19:22hope that somebody from the public uh or

3:19:24from the private sector could partner

3:19:26with the town and really make this a

3:19:28very unique and and um prosperous um

3:19:31venture for for all. Um so, that's the

3:19:33the kind of the totality of the the

3:19:36study. Again, a 9 to 10 month process

3:19:39whereby there'll be um touch points

3:19:41along the way where the public can

3:19:43continue to stay involved, including all

3:19:45the way up to the very end with the

3:19:46final um recommendations and

3:19:48presentation. Um so that's that. Um the

3:19:52study that was done and approved

3:19:54previously um in the 27th through 2019

3:19:57time frame and this one are completely

3:19:59two opposite things. So that there could

3:20:01be two more different animals if you

3:20:03will. Um that was a whole process to

3:20:05look at the whole downtown master plan,

3:20:07parking study, etc. and and had multiple

3:20:10phases and we're in phase two now as you

3:20:12know with the streetscape. Um this is a

3:20:14very dedicated study simply for that

3:20:17specific site on the again the market

3:20:21analysis and the feasibility of um so so

3:20:24couldn't be more different. Um we have

3:20:26not done the study before. Um and the

3:20:28the cost of price point is in range with

3:20:30what um we would expect it to be. Um the

3:20:33bids came in very very close. All all

3:20:34nine of them came in very very close.

3:20:36>> I had one followup and I'm done and

3:20:38thank you for that. Um I was going to

3:20:40ask during the um downtown master plan

3:20:44and parking study process there were

3:20:46focus groups. Will do you anticipate

3:20:48there would be focus groups?

3:20:50>> I I I think that was one of the terms I

3:20:52saw in the in the scope. Um they they

3:20:54did mention things like um interactive

3:20:56events where people can you know

3:20:58hands-on get in you know I'm not sure

3:21:01exactly what that means but but

3:21:02interactive events um opportunities to

3:21:05have like workshops um other sessions.

3:21:08So I would imagine a focus group um

3:21:10could very well be a possibility.

3:21:12>> Thank you for that.

3:21:16>> Yeah, just curious. Okay. Um this

3:21:19visibility study um you know including

3:21:23we do uh evaluation about the building,

3:21:26the condition of the building, right?

3:21:29>> I do not believe so. I believe that's

3:21:31already been done once.

3:21:33>> Correct. But that's already been done.

3:21:34We already have that on record. So it's

3:21:36not you know um included

3:21:39>> not in any depth. Okay. It's or that's

3:21:41already been done by a firm another a

3:21:43different study that looked

3:21:44architecturally and engineerally at the

3:21:46building. That's not even a word

3:21:48engineerally but I said it

3:21:50>> it works for me

3:21:51>> architecturally engineerally. Um but

3:21:53that's that's already been done. This

3:21:54will look at that in in the broader

3:21:57scope but not as a you know the

3:21:59soundness if you will of the building

3:22:01and those type of things.

3:22:02>> Okay. Thank you. Other

3:22:08questions for Miss Helms?

3:22:12>> Okay, thank you.

3:22:19>> All right, here we are. I just want to

3:22:21say thank you to everyone involved in

3:22:23this. Chief Herman, thank you so much

3:22:24for um the great presentation and Miss

3:22:28Helms as well. And I also want to thank

3:22:30Mr. more uh for his engagement with this

3:22:33and

3:22:37I definitely can relate to the history

3:22:38of course. Um this is my hometown. Uh I

3:22:41I do remember some of the great

3:22:43experiences at that building, did

3:22:45training in there as police. I'm I'm so

3:22:48glad that we're spending the time to

3:22:49really explore what's best for all of

3:22:51Apex. So thank you all for your

3:22:53collaboration on this and I know we got

3:22:55to move forward at the same time. So

3:23:00here here we are. So is there a motion?

3:23:02>> Motion to approve.

3:23:03>> All right. Second.

3:23:04>> Second.

3:23:06>> Any further discussion?

3:23:07>> Yeah, I do want to mention that and and

3:23:09I think it's um important to recognize

3:23:11that this is just another step in a

3:23:14longer pathway. We've still got a 9month

3:23:16plus runway on this um before we get to

3:23:20the point where we're doing the

3:23:21decision- making. um you know to speak

3:23:24to a a matter that was brought up by

3:23:26Karen. I know when I first saw this

3:23:28amount of money I was like woo it's a

3:23:30lot of money for uh for an additional

3:23:33study and I you know I asked the

3:23:34question in house can we do this in

3:23:36house um got got the answer that it's

3:23:39not going to be best to do this in house

3:23:41I started asking questions about scope

3:23:43what is going to be used because I mean

3:23:45this is a significant amount of money um

3:23:47but uh and as many of us have had we've

3:23:50had meetings with

3:23:52you know several several several

3:23:54meetings about this entire our issue and

3:23:57the things that always came up in the

3:23:58course of those meetings is you know I

3:24:01remember two themes that popped out.

3:24:04theme one was that when the

3:24:10if at the time of the merger they had

3:24:12known that there was going to be no

3:24:15operational fire station, they wouldn't

3:24:17have agreed to the merger. The second

3:24:20thing that I hear is that there was a

3:24:22great deal of pain that was felt when

3:24:25the word volunteer was removed from fire

3:24:28station one. Both of those things speak

3:24:31as to the emotional impact that this

3:24:34decision is having. This is

3:24:38as many things we have to deal with are

3:24:40dealing with things that involve what's

3:24:42the best operational what's the best uh

3:24:45way of making sure that we're

3:24:47effectively running this entire town.

3:24:51But there's a real emotional component

3:24:54when it comes to this sort of thing. And

3:24:56it's that level of emotional component

3:24:58which really drives I know me and all my

3:25:01colleagues that we've talked about

3:25:02drives us to the idea of whatever we're

3:25:04going to do we got to get it right.

3:25:06There's going to be a presence. We've

3:25:08got to figure out how that presence is

3:25:09going to be felt. We want to make sure

3:25:11that we're doing it right. And the best

3:25:13way of making sure that we're doing it

3:25:14right is making sure that we have as

3:25:16much public input, as much information

3:25:18as we can and looking at all the steps

3:25:22that we've got to get through. That's

3:25:24what is behind this dollar figure.

3:25:26That's the amendment. This is not simply

3:25:29a, hey, we're going to spend a lot of

3:25:32money for a study that could have been

3:25:33done cheaper or by something else. This

3:25:36is a study to get it done right. And I

3:25:40want to say thank you to the staff,

3:25:43to my colleagues,

3:25:45to those who are in the fire protection

3:25:48business because this is your attempt to

3:25:52make sure you get it done right.

3:25:54Thank you, Chief Herman, for recognizing

3:25:57and quite frankly confronting a lot of

3:25:59the pain that was created when the

3:26:03merger occurred. And those wounds

3:26:06continue to last. But I appreciate and

3:26:09applaud you for being there to make sure

3:26:11that we can at least address it. Not all

3:26:15pain gets healed. Not all pain gets

3:26:17forgotten, but we can at least make sure

3:26:19the pain doesn't become an infection.

3:26:23So, I think what you're seeing with this

3:26:24amount of money is a recognition that

3:26:27this is not going to be an easy process.

3:26:29Certainly ain't going to be cheap. Um,

3:26:32but we want to make sure we're doing it

3:26:34and we're going to get it done right.

3:26:35And as one of my old bosses used to say,

3:26:38you can do it cheap or you can get it

3:26:39done right. And uh this shows that we're

3:26:42going to get it done right. So

3:26:43appreciate all the work Joanna that you

3:26:45did on making sure we're going to get

3:26:47this done right.

3:26:49>> Thanks, Councilman. All right, we have a

3:26:52motion to second. All in favor say I.

3:26:55>> Oppos? Motion carries unanimously. All

3:26:57right, thank you everyone.

3:27:01All right, we're back to public forum.

3:27:03All right, trying to keep up here.

3:27:06All right, I'm gonna call names here.

3:27:07Joshua Bryant, you still here?

3:27:11Joshua Bryant, Michelle Steinback,

3:27:17>> Mason Logan.

3:27:19>> All right.

3:27:23>> And uh I don't know if the form went

3:27:25through because it was acting a little

3:27:27funny, but I am here with a group. Did

3:27:29it not?

3:27:31>> Um no.

3:27:32>> Okay.

3:27:32>> We can.

3:27:34>> Okay. One just had to step out for a

3:27:36second. She was right next to me. I have

3:27:37the

3:27:38>> Okay, you're good.

3:27:38>> Just want to make sure.

3:27:40>> Ready when you are.

3:27:41>> I'm ready. Uh, my name is Mason Logan.

3:27:44Uh, I've lived in this area my entire

3:27:47life. I grew up in Fugquway. I've lived

3:27:50in Holly Springs, Apex, pretty much all

3:27:52the way up Highway 55.

3:27:54Um, I've lived here all my life and it's

3:27:57pretty nice. I might die here. So,

3:28:00like a lot of people who've lived here

3:28:02for a very long time, I also remember

3:28:04what these communities were like just

3:28:07after 2008.

3:28:09I remember

3:28:11community centers that were just about

3:28:14closed, parks falling apart,

3:28:18programs being cut left and right. I

3:28:20remember a time when these cities barely

3:28:21had money to keep things running.

3:28:25And now I'm watching a lot of these

3:28:27cities invest in these ALPR cameras and

3:28:30the companies associated with them.

3:28:33These companies build themselves as

3:28:35public safety investments. But that is

3:28:37not what they are. They are not selling

3:28:40safety. They are not selling security.

3:28:42They are selling you the new tech model.

3:28:45And for those unfamiliar, the new tech

3:28:47model is one of infinite rent seeking.

3:28:50is one that seeks for you to pay for

3:28:53something indefinitely and they will

3:28:55raise the price whenever they see fit.

3:28:58When I see these cameras get put into

3:29:00cities, I don't see anything about

3:29:03public safety. I see an indefinite

3:29:06financial drain because they will raise

3:29:09the price over and over again.

3:29:13The last 10 years have been marked by

3:29:16significant recoveries since the 2008

3:29:18crisis wiped out most public services

3:29:21for the towns where we live.

3:29:24I think most of the people on this board

3:29:26probably remember that time.

3:29:30These companies will integrate

3:29:32themselves into your workflows with your

3:29:35police departments. They will weasle

3:29:37themselves into every corner of every

3:29:39operation that they take part in. They

3:29:42will make themselves feel invaluable and

3:29:45indispensable despite the fact that

3:29:47there is no solid evidence that these

3:29:50salesmen have not written themselves to

3:29:53demonstrate that there is any benefit to

3:29:55public pol to public safety.

3:29:58They will make themselves as central as

3:30:01possible or at least feel as central as

3:30:04possible so that when the time comes

3:30:07that they feel their income basis has

3:30:10not been met that their markers for

3:30:13success and their infinite desire for

3:30:16more money is not being fulfilled. They

3:30:19will raise prices and this is not a

3:30:21theoretical. This is what they're

3:30:23already doing to other towns.

3:30:26It's what they'll do here. We've spent

3:30:29years building these community services

3:30:32back up, bringing up parks that went

3:30:34into disrepair so badly that some of

3:30:36them just had to have parts knocked down

3:30:38because the maintenance didn't get done

3:30:39for so long. We finally got that stuff

3:30:41back. They're going to come in here and

3:30:44they're going to hold you at threat of

3:30:46telling your constituents that you don't

3:30:49care about public safety if you want to

3:30:51take the cameras down because now they

3:30:53want to charge you three times what

3:30:55originally you were willing to pay.

3:30:58They're going to hold you at that

3:31:00threat. They do. That's what they're

3:31:02doing to other communities. There is no

3:31:06tangible, no solid evidence to show that

3:31:09these are benefiting our communities.

3:31:11But they will come in. They will

3:31:14ingratiate themselves into police

3:31:16departments and make themselves make

3:31:18everyone who uses them feel as if

3:31:20they're helpful when they're not. And

3:31:24then when the time comes, they will

3:31:26charge you hand over foot anything they

3:31:30want at threat that they will replace

3:31:33you with someone willing to rubber stamp

3:31:35anything they ask for. And that's not

3:31:38conspiracy talk. They're already doing

3:31:41it.

3:31:43These are not security companies. These

3:31:46are not people interested in our

3:31:48well-being. They are parasites.

3:31:51And if we do not get rid of them while

3:31:54we still can, while we still have a

3:31:56government interested in its own

3:31:58citizens, they will install people whose

3:32:01only interest is to help them make more

3:32:03money. And I'm sure

3:32:06you all seem very trustworthy. There are

3:32:09some people who will feel that these

3:32:11companies will benefit them, that

3:32:13they'll do their bidding, and they'll

3:32:15they'll get by, they'll get their cut.

3:32:17But that's not how they work either. So,

3:32:19if there's anyone who thinks that maybe

3:32:21they can benefit, you won't. They'll

3:32:24come to you with all sorts of offers and

3:32:26back rooms and tell you anything you

3:32:28want to hear to keep it going, but as

3:32:30soon as they feel like someone is more

3:32:32of a liability, they'll replace them

3:32:33with a hand selected candidate. They are

3:32:36not just a threat to privacy, and they

3:32:38are. They're not just a threat to civil

3:32:41liberties, and they definitely are.

3:32:44They're a threat to the integrity of

3:32:45this government itself.

3:32:47They're a threat to our ability to fund

3:32:50our parks. They'll keep raising their

3:32:52prices until they get every scent they

3:32:55feel they can. And they will push anyone

3:32:57they view as a threat out of the way.

3:33:00And this isn't unique to Flock. It's

3:33:02every company that makes these. Every

3:33:05single one of these companies will latch

3:33:07onto our community and they will pull

3:33:10and they will pull and they will pull

3:33:12and they will remove anyone who tries to

3:33:14stop them. and then there will be

3:33:17nothing left.

3:33:19If you remember what things were like

3:33:21after the 2008 crisis when our cities

3:33:25had to practically rebuild because the

3:33:27tax base fell so low we couldn't afford

3:33:30maintenance on basic things.

3:33:33That's where we'll end up again. And

3:33:35they'll start slow. They'll start easy.

3:33:38They'll make you so many promises.

3:33:40They'll give you free AOPR readers.

3:33:43They'll offer you discounts on your

3:33:45subscriptions,

3:33:47but they'll disappear and the prices

3:33:50will go up. And when they're finished,

3:33:52when they decide there's nothing of

3:33:54value left to extract from our

3:33:56community, they'll leave.

3:33:59They'll leave their equipment. They'll

3:34:01leave a broken council and a bankrupt

3:34:03government because that's what they're

3:34:05doing. We can't just remove flock and

3:34:09say the problem's solved because they

3:34:12every other company that competes with

3:34:14them operates on the same business model

3:34:17of rent seeking and extraction.

3:34:20Fundamentally, we can't trust them. We

3:34:23can't trust their technologies.

3:34:26They're already hurting people. And I

3:34:29frequently hear this refrain that if you

3:34:31have nothing to hide, you have nothing

3:34:32to fear. Except for the several hundred

3:34:35people this year who have been charged

3:34:37from outofstate municipalities because

3:34:41the license plate readers read their

3:34:43plates wrong.

3:34:44People have been arrested because the

3:34:47license plate reader said their vehicle

3:34:49was stolen when it doesn't even match

3:34:51the make and the model. Those lawsuits

3:34:53are expensive. Like they're really

3:34:55expensive.

3:34:58They're going to start charging you more

3:34:59money. They're going to put you at legal

3:35:02liability for people who have been

3:35:03charged for things they did not do. They

3:35:06are going to take everything they

3:35:08possibly can. And if we do not remove

3:35:11them while we still have the opportunity

3:35:13to do so, we may never get the chance

3:35:15until there's nothing left for them to

3:35:17take. I yield the rest of my time.

3:35:20>> Thanks for speaking. [applause]

3:35:24Lorraine Mihan.

3:35:26Lorraine Mihan. Andrew Gluck.

3:35:30Heather Garrett.

3:35:41>> Hi. Uh my name is Heather Garrett. Uh

3:35:43I'm a student of social work. Um I'm

3:35:46also here to talk about ALPRs, but I'm

3:35:48going to be approaching it from a

3:35:49slightly different perspective. uh uh we

3:35:52live in the age of surveillance

3:35:54capitalism uh driven by the

3:35:55profit-making incentive. Companies like

3:35:58Meta, Google, uh OpenAI, Anthropic are

3:36:02capturing as much data on people's

3:36:04behavioral patterns as possible and

3:36:06feeding it into the extremely complex

3:36:07mathematical algorithms AI. Um these AI

3:36:12extract, amplify, and push forward the

3:36:15most frequently recorded patterns of our

3:36:17documented datified past. uh a cognitive

3:36:21scientist specializing in AI

3:36:22accountability, Dr. Abbea Bhane

3:36:25describes these AI powered predictive

3:36:27tools as being built to conserve the

3:36:29patterns of the past and extend them

3:36:31into our futures. Available policing

3:36:34data like those accumulated in part by

3:36:36ALPRs are used to train AI powered

3:36:39predictive policing tools which then

3:36:42creates a feedback loop further

3:36:44perpetuating our society's existing

3:36:46biases forward.

3:36:48For example, say due to systemic bias, a

3:36:51minority neighborhood was being

3:36:53overpoliced and thus over represented in

3:36:55crime statistics. [snorts] Predictive

3:36:57policing offered by Flock, Axon,

3:37:00Vigilant Solutions, etc., and powered in

3:37:03part by data from ALPRs will suggest to

3:37:05law enforcement to continue this

3:37:07overpolicing and thus over representing

3:37:09this neighborhood and crime statistics.

3:37:12These data then train the next version

3:37:13of the predictive model in a vicious

3:37:15cycle. This pattern of AI amplifying

3:37:18bias persists regardless of domain and

3:37:21the problem is so endemic to machine

3:37:22learning that it has generated an entire

3:37:25sub field AI in machine learning

3:37:27fairness research and development. If

3:37:29you are using a machine learning model

3:37:32trained on data sets that classify or

3:37:35represent people or their lives in any

3:37:38way, you almost certainly have unfair

3:37:41bias in your model. Put another way,

3:37:44when the machine learning models do what

3:37:46they are intended to do and find

3:37:48patterns and regurgitate them back as

3:37:50new judgments and predictions, they

3:37:53cannot help but reflect and amplify our

3:37:55flaws like a mirror. We are at a pivotal

3:37:59point in history. At the very moment

3:38:01when accelerating climate change,

3:38:03biodiversity collapse, and global

3:38:05political instability are commanding us

3:38:07to invent newer and wiser ways of living

3:38:09together, AI powered by ALPRs

3:38:14hold us frozen in place with

3:38:16permutations of a reflected past that

3:38:19only the magic of a marketing team can

3:38:21disguise as the future. I yield my time.

3:38:24Thank you.

3:38:24>> Thanks for speaking.

3:38:26[applause]

3:38:29have first name con last

3:38:32name initial K.

3:38:34>> Yeah.

3:38:41>> You provided your full name.

3:38:44>> S K A Y.

3:38:46>> Okay.

3:38:46>> Um I live in Wake Forest. Thank you for

3:38:49having me. Um, well, we've heard a lot

3:38:52of people talk about um surveillance

3:38:54infrastructure that's being put in

3:38:56around North Carolina, and I wanted to

3:38:59give my judgment on why I think I and

3:39:02many other people are concerned about

3:39:04this. Uh, I think it kind kind of comes

3:39:06down to a saying that's said a lot by

3:39:08people, and I think one gentleman up

3:39:10here just said it. Um,

3:39:13if you've got nothing to hide, then

3:39:15you've got nothing to fear.

3:39:20But I think if you think about that

3:39:22saying for a little bit, you realize

3:39:24that there's something a little wrong

3:39:25with it. Kind of a gut reaction you

3:39:27might have to it if you think about it.

3:39:30Something dangerously wrong. It's wrong

3:39:33in the same way that when you meet

3:39:35someone for the first time and you're

3:39:37talking to them,

3:39:39you're selective about the information

3:39:40that you are willing to tell them.

3:39:44you have a wall in front of you until

3:39:45you're able to determine if this person

3:39:47is trustworthy or not.

3:39:50And that's because we do that because

3:39:53we understand maybe not in words but

3:39:56instinctively that the information that

3:39:59we hold about our lives is incredibly

3:40:03powerful.

3:40:08And we understand that if that

3:40:10information were to fall into the wrong

3:40:12hands, malicious hands, someone who

3:40:14wanted to cause us harm or some maybe

3:40:16someone that wants something out of you,

3:40:19that that information could be used for

3:40:21destructive and maybe even deadly ends.

3:40:25It's that that phrase is wrong because

3:40:28the vast majority of the time when

3:40:29people conceal or hide information,

3:40:32they're doing it because they want to

3:40:34not because they want to achieve malice

3:40:37ends. It's because they want to protect

3:40:40themselves and the people that they love

3:40:42from malice

3:40:46and well malice and also the people that

3:40:51approach these sort of technologies like

3:40:53surveillance infrastructure

3:40:55and the vast cornucopia of information

3:40:58on people's personal lives that they

3:41:00consolidate into one big giant beacon of

3:41:04power.

3:41:05And I think I think those sort of

3:41:07dangerous people that you'd probably not

3:41:10want to have access to that information

3:41:12are attracted to those sorts of

3:41:14institutions.

3:41:16Um and it's it's for that those reasons

3:41:19and others that um I feel that these

3:41:23technologies cannot be trusted in any

3:41:26human hands and computer whatever. Um

3:41:30thank you very much.

3:41:31>> Thanks for speaking.

3:41:35Final speaker, Ben Cornweight.

3:41:46>> Good evening, mayor and uh members of

3:41:48the council. Um getting back to the

3:41:50station one firehouse um situation. Just

3:41:53wanted to um vocalize my support for

3:41:55providing the Apex firefighters with

3:41:58safe and modern and operationally

3:42:00effective facilities. uh not asking the

3:42:03town to preserve an unsafe or inadequate

3:42:05building at any cost. Clearly, I'm

3:42:07asking that the council not make an

3:42:09irreversible decision before

3:42:11alternatives and public safety

3:42:12consequences have been transparently

3:42:14evaluated. Obviously, a vote has already

3:42:16occurred. So, this um is a little bit

3:42:19way laid at this point. But importantly,

3:42:21I think um as the agenda for tonight um

3:42:25address concerns and updated funding for

3:42:27the feasibility study, I do think that

3:42:30one thing that's shortsighted is that

3:42:32the town's request for qualification

3:42:34states the redeveloped property will not

3:42:36contain the active fire station uh and

3:42:39the existing building um intended to be

3:42:41demolished. um that appears to both

3:42:44pre-select two of the most important

3:42:46conclusions before the next round of

3:42:48feasibility uh occurs before station one

3:42:52is decommissioned. Please require an

3:42:54independent analysis of the 90

3:42:57percentile response times, simultaneous

3:42:59incidents, downtown traffic and events,

3:43:02station 3 unit availability, future

3:43:04downtown growth, firefighter safety,

3:43:06public protection classification, and

3:43:08complete life cycle costs. I think

3:43:10that's important. Finally, please commit

3:43:13that there will be no demolition or

3:43:14disposition of the existing property

3:43:16until the feasibility study and adequate

3:43:18stakeholder input has been fully

3:43:21completed. Uh this does not have to be a

3:43:24choice between firefighter safety and

3:43:25apex history. A rigorous and genuinely

3:43:28open analysis should determine how the

3:43:30town can protect both. Thank you very

3:43:34much.

3:43:35>> Thanks for speaking.

3:43:37Right, Elizabeth Stit. All right, final

3:43:39speaker, right?

3:43:41>> All right, cool.

3:43:43>> Yeah, the computer wasn't very nice.

3:43:45>> Okay, no problem.

3:43:46>> I tried typing and I clicked wrong. Um,

3:43:50Elizabeth raised it. 3113 Friendship

3:43:52Road, Mary Town Council. Good evening.

3:43:55I'm happy to say I'm your last person

3:43:57and I will probably yield back a little

3:43:58bit of my time. Um, I wanted to add some

3:44:01additional comments that I couldn't add

3:44:03during the Vidia um, resoning. So, you

3:44:07know, Vidia was supposed to be more of a

3:44:09metropolitan urban type feel, you know,

3:44:13with sustainability.

3:44:16The notion that Wake Tech can't

3:44:18accommodate that doesn't jive. There are

3:44:22urban colleges all throughout the United

3:44:26States. And the benefit of an urban

3:44:29college, it allows those students to

3:44:31have all of these activities offampus by

3:44:35walking in very close distance. And as

3:44:39much as I've heard this council talk

3:44:40about, hey, you know, we need to look at

3:44:42more high density. We need more

3:44:44walkability. We need more multimodal

3:44:48activities.

3:44:50That was the perfect opportunity.

3:44:53Having Wake Tech go towards more of a

3:44:56grid

3:44:57offered that we gave up that you know we

3:45:02want students to be able to walk. Wake

3:45:04Tech, we're not going to have a lot of

3:45:05housing because it's a community

3:45:07college. Maybe they can get an apartment

3:45:10somewhere else within the community, but

3:45:12it's a large enough community that they

3:45:14may not be able to just walk or ride

3:45:16their bike. They're going to get in a

3:45:17car and drive. And the whole purpose of

3:45:19Veridia was to do that modern urban

3:45:23feel.

3:45:24There are a ton of urban colleges. I

3:45:28know that because my kids were the age

3:45:30went to college. Maybe your kids aren't

3:45:31old enough. They haven't looked at

3:45:32colleges. There are some phenomenal

3:45:35urban colleges. And for those kids who

3:45:38want to have that urban feel, we could

3:45:40have offered that. We could have had

3:45:42something right here without them having

3:45:45to go maybe to Charlotte or New York

3:45:49City or Atlanta. We could have had that

3:45:52here.

3:45:53It's just a missed opportunity. Now we

3:45:56have a vast campus

3:45:58that you're going to just have more

3:45:59traffic, more cars, and you know, I

3:46:04think decisions are being made on the

3:46:07big shiny. Oh, they say they don't want

3:46:10it. you know, they need this and we want

3:46:12to help them facilitate that, but we

3:46:14need to stop and ask some legitimate

3:46:17questions. Could they really not do a

3:46:19design? They're smart. The designers are

3:46:22smart. There's really no reason they

3:46:24couldn't have designed it. Thank you and

3:46:27enjoy close session.

3:46:29>> Thanks for speaking tonight.

3:46:32>> All right. Um, we have looks like five

3:46:36close session items.

3:46:38>> All right. Make a motion to go to close.

3:46:40>> Motion Ziggman.

3:46:42>> Second. Mappy. All in favor say I. I.

3:46:45Motion carries.

3:46:47Do we anticipate any more decisions

3:46:48coming out of [laughter]

3:46:52No.

5:08:23Yes. All right. Is there a motion to

5:08:25>> adjourn?

5:08:27Second

5:08:29[laughter]

5:08:31>> we're

5:08:33[snorts]