2026-10-29 - Town Council Work Session

00:01And then it was like

00:04[laughter]

00:08a good night.

00:28Hey, what's going on?

00:29>> Good.

00:31Let me interrupt.

14:43Everyone's

14:45order

14:57to the flag of the United States and to

15:00Republic

15:15for being here. We've got

15:21over

15:25a quick introduction. Um, we've been

15:28hitting a couple of working our

15:32community readiness plan and plan.

15:38Um, we had a work session early on.

15:51and back today to talk about

15:54those particular drivers that we're

15:57focusing on.

16:00Thank you so much. Great to be with you

16:02all this evening.

16:04We are engaged together in something new

16:08testing a new kind of plan help

16:11communities better prepare for the

16:13future. Uh and this is something we've

16:16developed at the USC School of

16:17Government. Um and it's uh this concept

16:21a community readiness plan is a future

16:24focused actionoriented strategic plan

16:27designed to help you build your

16:29readiness and resilience to manage

16:31change. Uh this is part of a larger

16:34program uh by the school and this

16:38evening we're going to ask you uh to

16:40review the implementation portfolio that

16:44we are bringing forward for your

16:46consideration to help implement uh this

16:50the plan document itself and advance the

16:53readiness of the town to address some

16:56key issues that y'all have identified.

17:00Uh we are part of a a larger program,

17:03the growing practical solutions

17:05initiative at the school designed to

17:08help uh local governments catalyze

17:10innovation to better prepare for a

17:12changing world. And so uh we wrote a

17:15report a couple years ago, my colleague

17:17and I, David Rouse, this managing

17:20disruption in a rapidly changing world

17:22report. It's been of decision makers

17:25throughout the state through the

17:27school's programs. It's available as a

17:29free download as well.

17:32We have also been coordinating this

17:35project as Shannon mentioned closely

17:37with the peak plan 2055 and trying to

17:41find opportunities to for efficiencies

17:44and economies of scale by dovetailing

17:46some of the activities. So we've done

17:48some of our public outreach for the

17:51community readiness plan at workshops

17:53and public forums that have been part of

17:55the so that has been I think a valuable

17:59uh integration of the two efforts and

18:02there are really two main activities

18:05that we've been engaged in preparing the

18:08community. The first is to prioritize

18:12different drivers of change. Uh these

18:14are macroscale issues that are affecting

18:17local communities like a changing

18:19climate like artificial intelligence and

18:21other issues. uh we described 16 of them

18:24that we identified with our faculty

18:27colleagues at the school of government

18:28in our report and we went through those

18:32with uh different stakeholder groups in

18:34the community and then with you in a

18:36work session last December to hone in on

18:39several of those that we'll talk more

18:42about in just a minute. So that was part

18:44one and since that time since visiting

18:47with you in December of last year uh we

18:50have been working with different subject

18:52matter experts and and staff from the

18:54town uh to develop a portfolio of

18:58projects to understand where the town is

19:01right now in its work on each of these

19:03priority issues and how to take that

19:05work to the next level to build the

19:08town's readiness to manage.

19:11So in that issue prioritization, we

19:14prepared an issue scan about a 30-page

19:16document that had data on each of the 16

19:19drivers of change. Um we shared that

19:22with you and other audiences

19:24uh as part of our conversations. We also

19:27held three scanning sessions, one of one

19:30of them with you in this room uh to scan

19:33through those 16 issues, find out which

19:35ones you yall thought were most

19:37important. We did that with other

19:39audiences as well. We also had a station

19:42uh at the public forum uh number one

19:45that was part of the peak plan and so

19:47had a chance for the broader community

19:49to give us input as well. We've packaged

19:53all that information up. uh we had a

19:55little score sheet uh and visited with

19:58you in December uh and talk through the

20:02the input that we had received from

20:04folks in the community and from these

20:06different audiences and uh talk through

20:09the staff recommendation of focusing on

20:12core issues artificial intelligence,

20:15climate, housing and water. uh and after

20:18uh I think a very good conversation, you

20:21blessed those and so those four issues

20:25have been uh the the focus of our work

20:28since then. Working to identify specific

20:31actionable

20:34can pursue to increase its readiness and

20:37resilience to address each of these

20:39drivers of change. So more specifically,

20:43what have we been doing since December?

20:45We first we had focus groups with

20:47subject matter experts. Uh we involved

20:50faculty from the school of government

20:52who have expertise on these different

20:54issues. We involved uh knowledgeable

20:57colleagues from other communities uh

21:00both at the local level and the state

21:02level and uh we involved your your staff

21:05who have been the point people for the

21:07town in working on these issues and had

21:10a focus group for each of the four

21:12topics. Uh and then David Rouse, my

21:15colleague, and I together developed a

21:18list of what we thought were promising

21:20implementation projects. We had a chance

21:22to vet those with our project team, uh

21:26with uh the deputy managers, uh with the

21:29department heads from the applicable

21:31departments. uh and really talk through

21:34and uh uh sort through uh the different

21:38potential project ideas to develop an

21:41actionable portfolio for y'all to

21:43pursue.

21:46When we go through those uh when we went

21:48through those different projects, we use

21:50a technique that we've developed of

21:51scanning, assessing, and prioritizing

21:53them. So you'll notice in your handout

21:56for uh this evening that the issues or

22:00the projects for each topic are sorted

22:02into shorter term projects and longer

22:05term projects. Shorter term projects are

22:07ones that we think uh are good

22:10candidates for initiation within two

22:12years after the adoption of the

22:15community readiness plan. longer term

22:17projects are ones that we would uh think

22:20the town might consider in the three to

22:2310 years after adoption of the plan. So

22:25that gives you a little bit of focus uh

22:28since there are 32 projects overall in

22:31the portfolio

22:33and helps would help the staff you know

22:35once you

22:37adopt the plan know where to put their

22:39resources first uh in making progress

22:42on. So uh you have uh this uh uh table

22:48uh that has the different projects. You

22:51will notice there are uh sections for

22:54the four issues and then there's also a

22:56fifth fifth section something we call

22:59organizational action. And you know,

23:02whenever you have a portfolio of

23:04different projects in your town, you

23:06advance a number of them at any one

23:08time, it's really helpful to have um

23:11some uh staff capacity to manage the

23:14portfolio as a whole, help the different

23:17project managers on the individual

23:19projects, work with upper management to

23:22bring forward updates and reports uh uh

23:25to you as the elected body and to the

23:28community. So uh in that fifth category

23:30we identify some different things that

23:32we think are helpful for advancing this

23:35initiative.

23:38All right. So uh the the main activity

23:41uh this evening is to go through this

23:45list and I'm going to do it sort of in

23:47batch. So uh we can go topic by topic

23:51and um you know so like for artificial

23:54intelligence uh your IT department has

23:57done a lot of work. So again, we started

23:59by trying to understand where that work

24:02sits right now and then how you can take

24:04it to the next level in having like a

24:07strategic plan for cities and artificial

24:11intelligence for how to sort through all

24:14the different shiny uh objects, the

24:16different vendor services that are

24:18available in terms of use software for

24:21AI and smart cities and hone in on the

24:23ones that are most useful to you. Um,

24:27y'all have a already have a good uh

24:30training uh program and so we talked

24:33about what the next level of training

24:36might be to help your staff understand

24:38appropriate and effective use of AI. Um,

24:43we also have some a concept of an

24:45innovation fund to help catalyze uh

24:48creative ideas. uh uh the staff has also

24:52been working to integrate data uh to

24:55provide more efficient service and also

24:57prepare for future cyber incidents. We

25:00know few years ago y'all had a

25:02ransomware attack like so many

25:04communities

25:06in recent years and so continuing to

25:08build your readiness to handle those

25:10kinds of incidents is another item in uh

25:14this particular topic. So, we've got

25:17short-term projects and longer term

25:19projects. And so, what I'd like to do

25:21now is just open it up and invite you to

25:24ask any questions or make any

25:26observations or comments, give us any

25:29guidance.

25:31First with the shorter term projects and

25:33then with the longer projects for AI and

25:36then we'll do the same thing for

25:39how does that sound as a way to move

25:41forward?

25:43>> Sure. Okay. Um, but I'll immediately

25:46break the rules. Um,

25:47>> okay. I think that 1.06

25:51cyber incident action plan needs to be a

25:54short-term

25:55um as AI models and the risk that that

26:00exposes to any organization

26:02included. I think that takes priority

26:06over

26:10this long longterm project in it's a

26:13project that's going to take a long time

26:15to get through or shortterm like as a

26:19prioritization because look at them as

26:22to me the idea of the

26:25having a cyber incident action plan is

26:27something that's not a one and done. It

26:30seems to me more like that's a you know

26:33we we're dealing with it today tomorrow

26:37next week but next year

26:40it seemed a little bit maybe that's that

26:43that

26:45question for

26:49>> yeah the way you've differentiated those

26:51is when would the town initiate

26:55this this project in some like in the

26:59case of uh your IT department, they've

27:01been doing work on many of these issues.

27:04Uh there's been work done, I know, uh on

27:07preparing for cyber incidents and the

27:09like. Um so, uh shorter term is

27:14something where the would initiate the

27:16next step in this work if it's something

27:18that's already underway

27:20within two years after adoption for

27:23shorter term projects or three to 10

27:25years. Uh so that that's really when the

27:28that work the next installment might

27:31start. Now the reality of some of this

27:34stuff is is probably in process and

27:38underway

27:40in some cases. So that's not a hard

27:43thing.

27:45But so I'm I'm hearing the importance

27:47though of preparation for cyber

27:50incidents. We know how disruptive that

27:52can be if your local government network

27:55is shut down, locked down by ransomware.

28:00>> So then let me expand. Um some of the

28:04shorter term stuff is is nice to have.

28:06How can we work more efficiently, you

28:08know, make user AI, uh increase the

28:12level of service opportunities, which is

28:14all good to argue today. Um but before

28:19we do that I think we need to make sure

28:20that safe are taken care of. So yes, we

28:24have cyber uh program, cyber defense

28:27program. We are highly deed, but I also

28:31want to recognize that AI has

28:32significantly changed the landscape in

28:36cyber threat. And so, you know,

28:39vulnerabilities that, you know, two

28:41months ago were low level

28:44vulnerabilities, not exciting to

28:46anybody, you know, now present serious

28:48vulnerabilities to to organizations

28:50because AI has to where it's how to

28:52exploit and is 3D,

28:54right? And so, you know, we I think

28:57before we start looking at the nice

28:59house, we got to make sure that our

29:01[clears throat]

29:02protected so that a we can continue

29:05operations, b safeguard the data that we

29:08have from our employees and our

29:12do not get ourselves into another

29:13situation where we find ourselves

29:16exposed.

29:17And so to me, that is kind of something

29:20that we need to take care of right now.

29:23Um, you know, we're dealing with the

29:24third zero day vulnerability in many

29:26weeks, you know, back in the home

29:28office, right? Basically, throughout

29:30everything you're doing, patching first,

29:33right, before we do penny and you know,

29:35you need to

29:37adopt some of the same uh, you know,

29:40that level of urgency.

29:44>> Yeah, if I could add to that, um, I

29:47agree with everything. I think if I

29:49could point out one thing maybe wrong, I

29:51think you are grossly for us to scare

29:54problem is um today uh what used to be

29:59the capability of like nation states

30:02like five years ago or a China uh to

30:06develop over the course of a couple

30:07years to attack a utility system or

30:09whatever is now in the hands of a

30:1215-year-old kid sitting in Eastern

30:14Europe and they can do it

30:16overnight. on the ability to to find

30:19exploits and as Ara was saying like

30:22exploit them to be actionable you know

30:26what you could take NSA type

30:28organization now again

30:31and um what we're seeing is

30:34[clears throat] I think the software

30:36industry for a little while felt like we

30:38could preemptively code our way out of

30:40this like we could find all the

30:42vulnerabilities and all the servers and

30:44all the stuff for the bad guys it was a

30:45race

30:47because we would get the advanced models

30:49first you know they would come to you

30:51know all the various corporations they

30:53work their software they fix all this

30:55stuff um and then eventually we'll get

30:58it and everything

31:00I think in the past month or so

31:03most organizations and most people in

31:06the industry kind of realize that's not

31:09that what happens is the next level of

31:12models even more esoteric minute small

31:15flaws

31:17exploit them to to take over exist for

31:19that. They're finding these little flaws

31:21that are 25y old software. They'll end

31:24up running the entire internet forever

31:27and it's just silly. And um there's no

31:30reason to think every single day won't

31:32be like this just forever. So the

31:35solution, not really a solution, but I

31:37think it's less about a plan to react

31:39and more about how you want to posture

31:41the organization to um to just sort of

31:44exist in this reality. And Randy, I've

31:46talked to you about this before like we

31:48need to move to a place where our

31:50utility system is just not on the there

31:53is no wire connecting

31:56the uh electric upgrade center. The

31:58center to work there, but there not be a

32:01wire there. And that means that if you

32:04need to do something maybe you can't do

32:05it remotely the office plug in there

32:07[clears throat] but the only real way

32:09the hard

32:11need to physically not be connected and

32:14it sounds extreme now but that's the way

32:17I think that the world's going to

32:18operate in a couple years as it is today

32:20isn't really exist

32:24when you walk out on the street and

32:25instantly get loved and then that's the

32:28internet metaphor you know but all the

32:32utilities and the stuff all of our

32:33networks you just can't have internet

32:35access on that left be on the corporate

32:38internet but it just physically needs to

32:40be separated in the world it's going to

32:42be vulnerable that's way so when I think

32:44of 106 I think of we need to start

32:46moving towards that model starting with

32:48the most critical stuff uh utilities and

32:53everything and then moving eventually to

32:55a place where our town internet is not

32:59connected next period

33:01Um, and maybe there's a couple like and

33:05there's certain software has to operate

33:08differently. Think of like how utility

33:11billing works. We upload stuff back and

33:13forth like that will channel where it

33:15can't be used as a tech channel. We can

33:18potentially migrate stuff our internet

33:21to an external site that our customers

33:23can reach and do stuff and then later we

33:25give back to stuff like that. like the

33:27whole model

33:29undoing a lot of the integration we've

33:31done and uh it sounds like a lot of work

33:34and it is but I promise it'll it's going

33:36to happen because I think the gen

33:42>> those are really helpful insights uh

33:45this is a great example of an issue that

33:46is unfolding before our eyes invite

33:52I don't know you have you want to add to

33:56>> yeah So there are almost at least two

33:58parts

34:02part of what I'm description

34:06certainly to what you two are speaking

34:08as more of the technical IT side of

34:11things. Yes, that's one part. The other

34:13part is clear protocols

34:17operational action. We've had

34:19significant work on that

34:26tech science. So it's almosting two

34:28fronts because when I first read this

34:30I'm like oh we've got we're working on

34:31this but it's more on the but not the

34:35tech side of it which I think is

34:38important

34:41steps

34:43RFP

34:45but what you just

34:48can't speak to that

34:54part

34:56from

34:57organization standpoint.

35:11So we're actually working on

35:15so part of that is identifying what is

35:17essentializing

35:19coming up with alternate ways to

35:21actually execute that process. So having

35:24only one way relying on the system or a

35:28process coming up with alternate

35:30processes. Um so whether that be

35:33extracting that data running that data

35:35through system. Um so this directly goes

35:38back into the issues that we had for

35:40cyber incident on one system had one

35:43process that we didn't have backup

35:46backup system. So coup outines some of

35:49those issues. Uh again this is just the

35:52second year that we're building

35:55but going back to your point is

35:58redundancy what is most critical to the

36:01talent services

36:04react to that. So that's that's reaction

36:07right that's incident response is very

36:10very important

36:12right but there's also the the part

36:16ofation right how do we

36:19getting

36:21so there's there's a cyber events like

36:24systeming you know whatever

36:29and we need to have this place in place

36:34all of

36:36on the trans

36:40needs to be about

36:43um but that that the tech service that

36:46that is out there

36:51um to me

36:56um

36:57what used to take very long time very

37:00detailed knowledge is now monetized and

37:03anybody has access

37:05And that makes this this whole, you

37:07know, new AI space so

37:12can we take just a second.

37:16>> Conra, could you come up front where we

37:18can hear you

37:27proactive? I guess what I hear is more

37:30addressing. That's

37:32what I'm hearing. We can do that. We can

37:34be more aggressive. But

37:38we have to be ready to change this

37:41process.

37:43So

37:48allow

37:50you want to move very aggressively

37:53off things,

38:00>> right? And then so and here's where the

38:02two starts overlap

38:05and all. So yeah, we need

38:11ourselves

38:13in the case of

38:21yesterday.

38:30It's a different behavior, right?

38:32There's no point

38:34taxing

38:37all day long.

38:39That's going to put a strain on the

38:41organization.

38:44But again like the threat is such

38:51again just to reiterate because I lost

38:53like our water treatment plant should

38:56not have an OR should not have there

39:00physically should not be a wire

39:01connecting that facility to the internet

39:03and to the degree that we have software

39:04today that depends on the operation or

39:07to the degree that that plant or any

39:10facility like that depends on the right

39:13for whatever reason we should evaluate

39:15that as we're alternatives and not just

39:17have a button to take it offline saying

39:19keep it offline it just isn't and then

39:23I think you'll find in the next couple

39:25years this will be at some point there

39:27will be an incident one of these

39:28stations or whatever

39:31and US government will whatever and

39:34we'll be told [laughter]

39:37and then obvious

39:41It'll seem obvious in retrospect today.

39:44You should probably I would say pretty

39:47much every system like I'm not sure

39:49unless it has unless it's a system that

39:52being online to operate is the nature of

39:54that system. It shouldn't be connected

39:56to the internet

39:58on our back some Europe will just hit

40:01the button and then some super genius

40:04level AI will just climb all

40:07the today is because they haven't it's

40:10more and more people are discovering the

40:12so I mean critical safety systems

40:16obviously I I can't think of a system

40:19except for maybe we have a registration

40:21system that has to be online parks and

40:24stuff we have a utility billing system

40:27obviously going to be online they

40:28shouldn't be inside our network there

40:30should be a clear protocol how to get

40:33information back it's probably slower

40:35and less efficient I think it's where

40:37we're going and either we're going to be

40:39forced to go there or we can go there

40:41preemptively. Um the the best cyber

40:44incident action plan is not to have our

40:47stuff in cyber space.

40:51>> So just want to acknowledge that we hear

40:55the importance and the urgency of this

40:57will reflect it in the plan. Uh I do we

41:01we do need to talk together uh with

41:04Randy and the IT director and the IT

41:07team at all

41:08>> to figure out exactly what that looks

41:10like. We we got the best.

41:14Um let's see add one quick thing to that

41:17which is understand

41:20try to figure out a way to take the

41:21first bite. I'm just wondering if

41:23there's a prioritization what is the

41:25absolute worst most

41:28water utilities or whatever and have

41:31some sort of system to work through so

41:33that it's not tech

41:37starting in addressing anything.

41:41Great observation for the purposes of

41:43the plan. It's going to be a much more

41:45general statement. So we don't need to

41:47give you an ad out to reflect this

41:50concept as a priority in the plan.

41:52That'll be more the details of

41:55developing and executing the work. So

41:58but uh we hear your observations about

42:01the course.

42:06>> Yes sir. I was looking at

42:09short-term project 103 and then longterm

42:13project 105 cost estimates.

42:22>> Yeah. And I I'm interested

42:25that

42:27you know particularly when it comes to

42:28training

42:30getting the staff trained on these

42:32issues. That seems like that's

42:35that's going to be cost

42:37you shouldn't put the cost but I was

42:39trying to figure out why.

42:42>> Yeah. The way we've handled cost is um

42:45are there additional resources beyond

42:47staff. So staff time you know you've got

42:51your existing staff capacity for many of

42:53the projects. It's it's a question

42:55simply of adding that project to like a

42:59continuous work plan for the applicable

43:01department and then that work can move

43:03forward. But some items need federal

43:07allocation of funds say through your

43:09annual budget either for costs that need

43:13to be incurred by the firm or if you're

43:15going to the marketplace to get

43:17expertise or capacity with you know

43:19through a consultant or whatever. Uh so

43:22that's the difference there. You're

43:24right. In reality, there's always a cost

43:28and staff for the ideas instead of

43:29something else. Um, but just the way

43:32we've structured it that

43:39other did you other questions or

43:41comments on the short and long-term

43:44projects that we've got for AI?

43:47All right. Uh, let's move on. So, uh,

43:49our next topic is climate. Uh so we've

43:52got two slides. The first one is the

43:54shorter term projects. Again, you are

43:56part of the county hazard mitigation

43:58plan. There's an apex section there. We

44:02uh your staff have been developing ideas

44:04for green storm water infrastructure

44:06that uh we have some good examples of

44:08how to take that work to another level.

44:10Uh you've done a lot of work with

44:12sustainability focused on the town

44:14operations. So that uh uh work uh

44:17there's an opportunity to sort of more

44:19systematically try and get

44:20sustainability features as part through

44:22the development process as part of new

44:24developments. We've done a lot of work

44:26thinking about how to protect and expand

44:28the tree canopy in the town. We know the

44:31incredible value that trees can provide

44:33in all manner of ways including cooling

44:36managing storm water. Uh and of course

44:40uh we're seeing more and more uh heat

44:42waves uh and so uh your staff have been

44:46participating in some state efforts on

44:48heat action planning and have some good

44:50insights uh to contribute as part of

44:53that work. Uh so any questions,

44:56comments, uh guidance on these shorter

45:00term climate projecting

45:11needs which

45:14help us

45:19would be actually

45:21harve

45:22help.

45:26>> Uh so um once the idea here would be uh

45:31you uh would build on the sustainability

45:35standards that have been used I think

45:38largely just with the meridian project

45:40to date um and learn from that

45:43experience to have standards that you

45:46might apply through conditional zoning

45:48for different projects. I don't um and

45:51so once you have like checklist

45:55internally then it's the work is more on

45:58the applicants to include those features

46:01in their budgets. So that's why we have

46:03it at the medium level. Um for that

46:07>> okay as I was thinking that

46:10seems like one of those staffing needs

46:12that as more as even though we're

46:16limited in the number of developments

46:18that happen as we start to dig into

46:23what sustainability programs did. We

46:25tend to find that more sustainability

46:29programs kind of we think of more of

46:31them as we kind of move along. So it

46:34seems like this is like an upward

46:36grading,

46:37you know, staffing problem for me.

46:52have a finite curve as to how much

46:54development we have

46:58more about I think developing internal

47:01checklist that then gets applied you're

47:03absolutely right there'll be learning

47:05way that checklist will get defined but

47:08that is simply applied through the

47:11development review process negotiation

47:14process.

47:17Uh let's see other questions or comments

47:19on the shorter term climate question.

47:23Great. Let's move on to the longer term

47:26ones. Uh y'all uh of course being an

47:29electric city uh have a a particular

47:33role with providing power to the

47:35community. Um, you also have a chance to

47:39do a townwide green infrastructure plan.

47:41This is thinking about how to protect

47:43the essential green spaces that help to

47:46clean the air, filter the water, manage

47:50flooding waters and the like. And there

47:53uh you also have a chance to do a

47:54communitywide climate action group uh

47:57building on the good work that you've

47:59done on sustainability for town

48:01operations and then also potentially uh

48:05identifying opportunities for folks in

48:08the broader community to also do two

48:10things. reduce their carbon footprint

48:13and also better prepare for a changing

48:16you know the impacts of a changing world

48:19as we experience more extreme weather.

48:23So those are our longer term climate

48:25projects. Any questions, comments,

48:28observations, guidance

48:32just you know again general questions.

48:34How much

48:36actionable details behind each of these

48:39these initiatives? Is is that get CBD

48:43because we're just kind of getting the

48:45priority straight here and then we'll go

48:48work out some of the details if these

48:50are kind of lofty statements right

48:54that

48:56you know execution of some of these

48:58things.

48:59>> So true. So true. Yeah. Even though the

49:02some of these seem like about these

49:04statements they are although actionable

49:06projects that would produce a

49:08deliverable uh for the team. So like um

49:12you know so for each of them they'll

49:14need you know they'll need to be a

49:16project manager folks will need to use

49:19project management techniques like

49:20developing a scope schedule and budget.

49:23Um so all of that work will come uh once

49:26you give the green light on do these

49:29things first and do those things later.

49:32Um and so then the found the staff will

49:35you know have that guidance and can set

49:37about resourcing the individual projects

49:40and organizing them so that the work

49:42gets carried out efficiently and

49:44effective

49:45council's point

49:49I don't know how to I imagine there's a

49:52scenario where this comes back with more

49:54specificity that may at the very least

49:58be raw prioritization of things and So,

50:02I'm just wondering is there another

50:04review? Does that is the train already

50:06too far down the track by that point

50:08because I see some of these things um I

50:11mean

50:13my

50:20said earlier when you talk about

50:23the AI resilience essentially is

50:26tackling things that we need before

50:28things that we want. And so I see some

50:30of the things like tie-ins between

50:32short-term uh projects like the um

50:35implement green storm water

50:36infrastructure initiatives uh plenty of

50:40tins with that with the prepare the

50:42townwide green infrastructure plan.

50:45Yeah, those are

50:46>> good,

50:47>> right? And so I guess that's

50:50I agree entirely what you saying

50:54this, but I'm also agreed that at some

50:56point you say

50:58a revisiting might

51:02different.

51:04So, let's talk about uh the budget

51:06timeline and then what happens once you

51:08have it. So, um, with your input this

51:12evening, we're going to finalize the

51:14public review version of this document

51:17and then as is the practice of the town.

51:20Uh, the plan is to have a public uh

51:22comment period and then uh take those

51:25comments, make some uh revisions based

51:28on them uh and bring then bring forward

51:31a final uh version for y'all to renew.

51:35One of the things you'll notice uh in

51:37the organizational action section that

51:40we talked about is like an annual update

51:43on progress with the so that's so that

51:46first of all that process gives you one

51:48opportunity make adjustments that's

51:51going to happen just over the next few

51:53months moving forward once you have the

51:56adopted plan uh we're recommending an

51:59annual checkin you to let you all know

52:02what has been accomplished in the in the

52:04over the past year on the different

52:06projects and then what's on path in the

52:08year ahead. You'll have a chance to make

52:11course corrections, adjustments, you

52:13know, give any guidance and direction

52:15that you'd like um through the work. The

52:18other thing I will say is,

52:21you know, a lot of these issues like uh

52:23y'all are describing with AI are almost

52:26changing before our very eyes. And so,

52:29uh a regular uh update is really helpful

52:33that way. just to make sure to to check

52:36and see if you are focused on the

52:38drivers that you think are the most

52:40important ones for the town. You can

52:43also in future years update the plan.

52:46Some of the d you know some of the

52:48drivers may uh fade in terms of their

52:51significance, others may assert

52:53themselves more prominently. And so you

52:55may want to adjust which issues uh even

52:59you're the focus of the plan. And so

53:02you'll have a chance to do that in the

53:04years ahead. So we've tried to

53:06anticipate and create a structure for

53:08you to have regular checks indoors.

53:15>> Is that the follow again just really

53:18quickly is I see like for instance that

53:20I just

53:22directly

53:25things that impact uh

53:31planned use and uh development and so I

53:35guess I'm just wondering you just say

53:39that that train station

53:44>> uh yeah there are some interconnections

53:47with this work with plan 20 55 that this

53:52work takes is looking more broadly at

53:55the whole spectrum of emerging issues

53:57and uh what what might affect the

54:01that is more focused on transportation

54:05and so there may be something like this

54:07may reinforce some of that work uh and

54:12again we've done the two documents

54:15together are sort of at in parallel so

54:18they uh you know we're cognizant of the

54:20places where they intersect and um and

54:23that you know so sometimes you get some

54:26emphasis when you've got an issue that

54:28shows up in several of your

54:31Yeah, that's just reminding us of how

54:33important.

54:37>> All right, any other comments on uh

54:39long-term climate?

54:42Let's move on to housing. Uh this is an

54:44issue uh we know you've been doing a lot

54:46of work on. You have a wonderful 2025

54:49housing plan update. Uh we've tried to

54:52focus on some of the places that are a

54:55little bit more developmental. you know

54:58there as as communities throughout the

55:00country are responding to the housing

55:02crisis we're seeing a lot of

55:04experimentation both in tools and also

55:07in different construction techniques um

55:10so you know uh already the town has been

55:13doing a lot of work with education uh

55:16that uh housing education that's really

55:18important um we think with the advent of

55:22new institutions like the children's

55:24hospital you have a chance to further

55:27further develop the partnerships that uh

55:30that you might have to help provide

55:33employee housing or contribute to

55:35employee housing or or the participation

55:38of those institutions and uh providing a

55:41uh helping to uh support affordable

55:43housing in the community. So we think

55:45that's a real opportunity. uh you know

55:47there's a regional effort through the

55:49Tango Community Foundation sort of a

55:51collab uh funders collaboration that's

55:54been looking at housing issues

55:57you have of course the local government

55:59toolbox that you've already been tapping

56:01with your housing trust fund and some of

56:02the other techniques that you've been

56:04using there's still additional

56:06techniques that could be evaluated to

56:09try and help fill that gap between the

56:11cost of building housing and what people

56:13can actually afford to pay for it. Um uh

56:17and then you know you've also spent a

56:20lot of time looking at you know the

56:22development process

56:24already have measures for trying to uh

56:28support the production of housing

56:30through that process in an appropriate

56:32way. Um so that's that's your shorter

56:35term portfolio for housing. Any comments

56:38or questions on those items and then we

56:41can look at some longer term

56:46I do have um council me has um some

56:52concerns about the zoning incentive

56:54policy that um staff is um starting to

56:59review in preparation um to take to uh

57:02responsible um development committees.

57:05So, I just want to say that because

57:06while we were working on the community

57:08readiness plan and having those

57:10conversations, we were also having uh

57:13conversations about some of the concerns

57:15they have, but that's all geared around

57:19um the foundation for implementing the

57:22housing that we have in here.

57:25>> So, um again, because your staff has

57:28been participating in this process as

57:30well as that, we're able to make those

57:32connections.

57:34Let's see. Are there any questions or

57:37comments or shoot for [clears throat]

57:39us?

57:43Hearing none. Uh for the longer term

57:45projects, again, you know, there's we're

57:47seeing a lot of innovation uh in the

57:49housing field. We're seeing repurposing

57:52of buildings. We're seeing 3D printing.

57:54We're seeing uh new kinds of constru

57:56rapid construction, for example. So, we

57:59think that's a useful thing to keep

58:02track of. and uh uh sort of stay up to

58:05date on those changing technologies and

58:08try and support appropriate use of them

58:10in the town through the uh development

58:13uh standards that we have in the

58:15community. Um we have a housing voucher

58:18program through the county where there's

58:20opportunity to work with landlords and

58:22get fuller utilization of that uh of

58:26that program so that folks who are

58:28eligible have have some options uh for

58:31housing uh using that resource. And then

58:34there's sort of some continuing

58:36conversations at the state level. Uh we

58:39saw some uh state legislation this year

58:42uh prohibiting local governments from

58:44establishing minimum parking

58:46requirements. Uh here we're more

58:49thinking about um reducing barriers to

58:53allowing the construction of different

58:55housing types like tiny houses for

58:57example.

58:59again uh you still would have to make

59:03u

59:05uh decisions locally in terms of the

59:07exact development standards that you

59:09allow but a more permissive state

59:12framework and give you some more options

59:15housing. So that those are the longer

59:17term uh projects that we have for

59:19housing. Any questions, comments?

59:29hate hearing none. Uh our last topic is

59:31waters and this is something you have

59:34done a lot of work on. You have a really

59:37you know a long history with this and

59:39it's also the kind of work that you

59:41really need long um it takes a long time

59:44to bring new capacity online. Uh and so

59:47you're in a fast growing community. So

59:50even though it looks like everything's

59:51fine today, uh just being aware of uh

59:55what your needs are down the road is

59:57going to be really important. Now y'all

59:58have done have been part of a really

1:00:01good effort in Wake County to develop a

1:00:04one water plan sort of how to take an

1:00:07integrated approach uh using water

1:00:09resources and managing

1:00:12uh those resources. Uh so there uh some

1:00:15uh so there's an opportunity to help

1:00:17support the implementation of the county

1:00:19plan that y'all uh have participated in.

1:00:23Um there's also a a chance to continue

1:00:26to engage elected officials in the

1:00:28region and you have different forums

1:00:31that uh where this has been happening uh

1:00:34like the Jordan one water committee and

1:00:37some work in the upper news basin for

1:00:39example as well. Um, but that's an

1:00:42important activity to help make sure

1:00:45that current and future leaders know

1:00:47both the opportunities and the

1:00:49challenges of managing that essential

1:00:51asset as the region grows. Um, you also

1:00:55have some opportunities in your water

1:00:57system to achieve even greater

1:01:00efficiencies and system utilization of

1:01:03processed water and the like. And so uh

1:01:06that was something our team of of

1:01:08experts uh identified. Um and then uh on

1:01:12the longer term scale of things,

1:01:15continuing to have good conversations

1:01:18both between upstream and downstream uh

1:01:21communities is going to be really

1:01:23important to sort of maintaining a

1:01:26shared vision and talking through the

1:01:28use of of our water resources in the

1:01:31years ahead. So uh that was something

1:01:33else our team identified as well and I

1:01:36will say special thanks to the deputy

1:01:38town managers for their participation uh

1:01:42in support of the manager's office um

1:01:44through this process been really

1:01:49along with the department.

1:01:53So any uh questions, comments or

1:01:56direction on

1:01:57>> watermud

1:02:17the um you know the thought here is

1:02:18you've got staff who are participating

1:02:21in these

1:02:24ations

1:02:25and and also elected officials probably.

1:02:29Um and so the thought is it's more like

1:02:32continuing that work and bringing you

1:02:35know having them having continuing the

1:02:37internal conversations to think about

1:02:40the town's needs and how that's

1:02:42interfaced with the region as opposed to

1:02:44like a spec something specific that

1:02:47required an allocation at this point in

1:02:50time. You're right though, Council

1:02:51Member Gray. There may be initiatives

1:02:54that do require money in the future as a

1:02:56result of those conversations, but we

1:02:59thought it was premature to try and

1:03:02>> if I could add one water member for a

1:03:06fair, but yeah, so the model that they

1:03:09have is all the members the views are

1:03:11relatively positive. It's not a kick.

1:03:15That's challenge if you want to hire

1:03:17staff members to work on stuff. Um so

1:03:20there's a larger question which you can

1:03:22imagine where it goes to is how like

1:03:25that gets funded to the level where they

1:03:27can actually hire people

1:03:32support which you know is fine agenda

1:03:38scale

1:03:51doesn't amount to much

1:03:55um but I think it's an important effort

1:03:57and it's something that could drive

1:03:59projects and talk about you know I give

1:04:01credit for project you do a watershed um

1:04:05and it's uh it's kind of open question

1:04:07that technology and I just one other

1:04:09thought that I I want to mention we're

1:04:11on subject to JLo is um apex being a

1:04:14consumer sort of like has a special

1:04:16interest and responsibility

1:04:21and benefit from this program that a lot

1:04:24of other women see if they are just

1:04:29go down

1:04:32affects us

1:04:35people like us on leading edge of this

1:04:38program or it's not we have to get

1:04:42that committees down the stream from us.

1:04:44We'll have to say and so we have

1:04:47responsibility there as well if we're

1:04:49going to be taking water out of the

1:04:51water shining

1:04:55reason

1:04:57back in

1:05:02its

1:05:04>> and hence really the importance of

1:05:07continued communication collaboration to

1:05:10work through the dynamics of those

1:05:12issues.

1:05:16staff is right there when you

1:05:19all right. Uh let's move on to

1:05:21organizational actions. This is that

1:05:23fifth category. Uh we think it'd be

1:05:26really helpful to have some dedicated

1:05:27staff capacity to think about how to

1:05:30manage the portfolio projects as a

1:05:32whole. Support the individual project

1:05:34managers as individ as issues come

1:05:37forward. Help folks get the necessary

1:05:39resources. Um a a second item is

1:05:45tracking these trends, these drivers of

1:05:47change. I personally think this is an

1:05:50issue where there could be real value in

1:05:52doing that on a regional a county or

1:05:54regional scale where uh you could

1:05:57achieve greater efficiency since many of

1:05:59the issues um have applicability to a

1:06:03number of communities. Obviously there

1:06:05are smaller community versus larger

1:06:07community differences and the like. But

1:06:10so trend tracking I think is is

1:06:12something that's really important. We've

1:06:14got that in there. Uh providing an

1:06:16annual update as we were talking about

1:06:18management to the elected body of the

1:06:21community on the progress of

1:06:23implementing the plan is another item.

1:06:26Um we've seen the very effective use of

1:06:30tabletop exercises. Uh we often see that

1:06:33typically in hazard preparation, hazard

1:06:36mitigation, and emergency response. Uh

1:06:39there may be opportunities to uh do some

1:06:41of those tabletop exercises with

1:06:43different types of scenarios as well.

1:06:45But that's that uh that's a way to take

1:06:48a deeper dive into trying to understand

1:06:51the dynamics of what we might face in

1:06:53the future. Um, also creating a standing

1:06:56innovation fund to help fund creative

1:06:59projects again uh can really help

1:07:03good ideas uh find the resources they

1:07:06need to be explored more deeply. Uh and

1:07:09then public information is always going

1:07:11to be important uh especially in

1:07:13communicating what the town's doing to

1:07:15prepare for the future and and uh being

1:07:19prepared for how to handle uh different

1:07:22shocks and incidents. uh that uh we

1:07:25might experience from extreme weather.

1:07:28So that's what we've got in your

1:07:30portfolio for organizational actions. Uh

1:07:33any questions, comments, or direction?

1:07:39>> A couple things. Title two feels a

1:07:42little bit redundant to me with existing

1:07:45organizations. We just talked about the

1:07:46one water initiatives, right? And so why

1:07:49not use like central pines and one

1:07:51waters and you know other

1:07:54communities that that we participate in

1:07:56um as as kind of you know this being on

1:07:59the lookout you know I think that's

1:08:01great trends because this that's

1:08:04something that just affects right has

1:08:07much broader implication for everybody

1:08:10um so I want to kind of guard us against

1:08:13setting up something

1:08:15like a shadow organization to something

1:08:17that that's probably

1:08:20say that differently let's leverage the

1:08:22organations that we already participate

1:08:24in to make sure that we have the same

1:08:30future trends without inventing another

1:08:33standing.

1:08:34>> Yeah. No, absolutely. I think there's a

1:08:37great opportunity to do that

1:08:41>> and I guess

1:08:42>> but it doesn't exist right now.

1:08:46I know you had a question

1:08:49to that a little bit more general

1:08:51question.

1:08:54>> My my question I guess

1:08:57is whose portfolio is this going to be

1:09:01under because it seems like

1:09:04there's a budget side but it seems a

1:09:06touch everyone.

1:09:09So trying to get a sense is there I

1:09:11thought

1:09:15okay

1:09:19And that kind of ties into the question

1:09:21I had, right? So this sets a series of

1:09:24priorities and kind of direction for

1:09:27town

1:09:29to kind of fit in in this work. You

1:09:32know, we start looking at individual

1:09:34projects.

1:09:37But at the same time, we have other ways

1:09:39of communicating our priorities as well.

1:09:42We have game 10 apex that we spoke about

1:09:45a couple weeks ago, right? And so, how

1:09:47do we make sure that we're not 15

1:09:50different directions because we have

1:09:52different prioritization initiatives

1:09:54going on, right? How do we kind of bring

1:09:56that together into, you know, one

1:09:59management and governance structure that

1:10:01provides guidance to staff?

1:10:05uh and we're not you know either

1:10:08contradicating ourselves or saying too

1:10:10many priorities and and not getting

1:10:12anything done. I can describe for you

1:10:15sort of how I think of it. Like it's

1:10:16sort of you've got a constellation of

1:10:18plans that are uh each one is

1:10:22contributing projects that are for up

1:10:25for consideration in the work plan for

1:10:28different departments and may also

1:10:30contribute potential candidate projects

1:10:33for consideration uh for funding in the

1:10:35manager's recommended annual budget. Uh

1:10:38so like you've got a comprehensive plan

1:10:41that's got to lend you some

1:10:44transportation focus. You've got the

1:10:46capital improvements plan that's part of

1:10:48the budget for capital projects. Um

1:10:51you've got the manager strategic plan,

1:10:54the G game plan Apex that you are up. So

1:10:57this would be another plan that uh looks

1:11:00at these issues in a slightly different

1:11:02way. uh that also each of those plans is

1:11:05contributing projects that are getting

1:11:08incorporated in the departmental budgets

1:11:11and uh departmental work plans and are

1:11:15contributing potential projects for

1:11:17consideration.

1:11:19So this is another plan that contributes

1:11:22to that. Um you know you have the chance

1:11:24to factor in the insights and

1:11:28information from this kind of plan when

1:11:30you're updating say the uh strategic

1:11:33plan as well, but I I think of it as

1:11:37this sort of constellation of plans,

1:11:39each contributing insight that helps you

1:11:42then uh pursue the projects that uh the

1:11:46community needs that helps you serve the

1:11:48community well. Uh but exactly how you

1:11:51do that is, you know, is something that

1:11:54may may take a little bit of work to uh

1:11:57you know, develop the working framework.

1:11:59But I I will say I've been really

1:12:01impressed just with the planning work

1:12:03that your community has done compared

1:12:05with many others that I've worked with

1:12:07in North Carolina. Y'all have put a lot

1:12:10of thought over the years and your

1:12:12framework and now you're also piloting a

1:12:17whole new way of thinking uh and to help

1:12:21you prepare for the future. So uh I

1:12:24commend the leadership that you've

1:12:26provided

1:12:30question I should have asked

1:12:32when I see like for instance you know

1:12:352.01.02

1:12:37Are those in priority

1:12:42like you said

1:12:45on field? I just wanted to make sure.

1:12:47>> Yeah, there's no shorter and longer term

1:12:51categories. There's no

1:12:54real distinction

1:12:57stuff that you know this should be a

1:13:00candidate for initiation sooner.

1:13:05All right. Uh any other questions or

1:13:07comments on the organizational action?

1:13:11All right. Uh so, uh uh that's all I

1:13:14had. Uh I appreciate uh the good

1:13:17comments and discussion engagement that

1:13:19y'all provided. Um moving forward, uh we

1:13:23do have one more opportunity uh to get

1:13:26public input on this portfolio of

1:13:29implementation projects. Uh we're about

1:13:32to have public forum number three on

1:13:34November 12th as part of the peak plan

1:13:36process. So I'll be there probably with

1:13:39Taylor uh uh at at a station uh to uh

1:13:45share the uh and and get input on these

1:13:49uh particular implementation projects.

1:13:51We will then fold all of that

1:13:53information into a the actual community

1:13:56readiness plan document. It will

1:13:58document the process we've been through.

1:14:00Share your drivers of change priorities

1:14:02and share your uh table similar to this

1:14:06with your different actionable projects.

1:14:11Um and then we'll release that as a

1:14:16public

1:14:21uh then take the public comments make

1:14:23some revisions and bring forward final

1:14:26version for y'all to review and adopt.

1:14:28Uh and when you do that, you will be the

1:14:31first community in North Carolina to

1:14:33adopt a community readiness plan using

1:14:35this approach to help you better

1:14:37prepare. So we appreciate the great

1:14:40collaboration

1:14:42that will actually

1:14:46>> if I could just say one thing, thank you

1:14:48Ben really helpful. Um I'm just

1:14:51[clears throat] preview mentioned the

1:14:53forum November 12th. Um you're going to

1:14:56get an invitation through Alan when I

1:14:58attend it for a preview hour. Um the

1:15:02public forum is from 4 to 7 invite

1:15:07council planning board and our plan of

1:15:10course at 3 to 5 um just so that you

1:15:13have time to talk with the consult

1:15:16um and look at the recommendations and

1:15:19kind of prepare you want to stay for the

1:15:22public. So just just a preview of that

1:15:25invitation that'll be thank you very

1:15:28much.

1:15:39I also encourage colleagues

1:15:43to the circuit talking about this

1:15:46giving visibility. There are a lot of's

1:15:55there's a lot here.

1:16:08Sure.

1:16:31[laughter]

1:16:52>> [clears throat]

1:16:53>> Okay. All righty. Thank you so much.

1:16:56We'll roll right in. So the purpose of

1:16:58the day today is to provide an update on

1:17:00the three policies that you've

1:17:02previously given direction on um being

1:17:05updated. So the public participation

1:17:07policy um the social media and

1:17:09communications guidelines and then the

1:17:11travel and expense policy. And so the

1:17:14the framing of today is really to talk

1:17:17through scenarios, make sure that we've

1:17:18captured everything that you intended to

1:17:21be included. um but then wanted to make

1:17:23sure that we're all on the same page

1:17:25with a clear understanding of the

1:17:28interpretation of said policy. So again,

1:17:32uh we had some discussion back in April.

1:17:35Um it was around just creating

1:17:37consistency, transparency, and

1:17:39accountability. Uh we'll talk through

1:17:41some scenarios. Um and then identify any

1:17:44areas of consensus and opportunities for

1:17:46refinement.

1:17:47So we'll start with the public

1:17:48participation policy amendments. Just a

1:17:51reminder, this is a high level of what

1:17:53you all had previously reported out on.

1:17:56So, uh, we asked you whether you wanted

1:17:58public participants, um, that signed up

1:18:00to speak to be in person. Um, and all of

1:18:02you said yes. Um, all of you said that

1:18:04we would continue to have a public forum

1:18:06period at each regular council meeting.

1:18:08So, if that's twice a month, it would be

1:18:11twice a month, but at each regular

1:18:13council meeting. Um and then you all

1:18:15were in agreement with keeping the 12

1:18:17speakers or 36 minutes time frame and

1:18:20then when we get to that uh time limit

1:18:24uh we've started a prioritization but at

1:18:26the time of this survey we had not

1:18:28started that and so it there was some

1:18:31split responses on whether you all

1:18:32wanted to actually vote to extend the

1:18:34public forum period um or leave it up to

1:18:38the presiding officer's discretion. So

1:18:43I'll move forward the um main point of

1:18:47the policy. So this is the one of the

1:18:49three that was already adopted by the

1:18:51council in 2018. Um so there is an

1:18:54existing one. So the the uh request here

1:18:58or the ask is to amend uh the policy. Um

1:19:01the amendment would include uh the

1:19:03speaker prioritization language which

1:19:06you all have started doing uh back in

1:19:08June. also uh provide for the additional

1:19:11comment period which is not spoken to in

1:19:14the current policy um clarify uh group

1:19:18presenters. We also have in the current

1:19:21policy it speaks to presenters will

1:19:23coordinate with it or the clerk to have

1:19:25their flash drive loaded up on the

1:19:26computer. We don't do that for

1:19:28technology reasons and security reasons

1:19:30and so just wanted to clean up to match

1:19:33our practices currently. Um and then

1:19:35also clarify because a lot of our

1:19:37advisory boards are starting to have

1:19:38public comment periods and public

1:19:40hearings. Um it's unclear whether these

1:19:42apply to them as well. And so the intent

1:19:45is to make sure that the policy applies

1:19:47to council and uh the advisory boards.

1:19:51So in soliciting feedback um this is

1:19:54what I have received. Um so should

1:19:57speakers be encouraged to provide their

1:19:58name and address for the record? Some of

1:20:00you may recall that um one individual

1:20:03did not want to provide their name and

1:20:04address. So um the current policy states

1:20:07they must um so wanted to just point

1:20:11that out. Also the current restriction

1:20:14on applausing and hand clapping. Um some

1:20:17have said to remove that because that's

1:20:20a expression of of speech. Um some have

1:20:23said to keep it. So we just need some

1:20:25direction on that. And then uh must

1:20:28speakers verbally speak during public

1:20:30forum. Um you have seen one individual

1:20:33that has come up to speak and has used

1:20:36that time to be in silence. Um and so

1:20:39just wanted to get some direction on

1:20:40these three components if we can.

1:20:45>> First one must second one keep it. Third

1:20:50one.

1:20:53Yes, they have.

1:20:55>> I

1:21:00can on the first one. I need to verify

1:21:03because

1:21:10we need to make sure that's that's still

1:21:12constitutional that we can require

1:21:14before they speak. So I'll I'll verify

1:21:16that.

1:21:18So my rational for kind of highlighting

1:21:20this one was during the reg registration

1:21:23we ask people to submit their name and

1:21:26address. So do they need to as well? We

1:21:30only have to that

1:21:33I will say um

1:21:36I think it's important for people to

1:21:38know that they're hearing from their

1:21:39neighbors versus hearing from people

1:21:41from Jason.

1:21:42Both of those voices are val

1:21:54and it can sound like it's something

1:21:56that is relevant to our community.

1:22:01>> Okay.

1:22:03>> And the the thing is is that we we

1:22:05continue to put so when the individual

1:22:07said they didn't want to state their

1:22:08name and address for the record, we

1:22:09still include it in the minutes. Um, and

1:22:11it's still as a reference still a public

1:22:14record. So whether they state it or not

1:22:16is a different thing.

1:22:18>> The only compromise I can see there as

1:22:21something that would have my support is

1:22:24perhaps and again

1:22:26we have all sorts of broken records in

1:22:28North Carolina. Anybody can find

1:22:29anybody. Uh that said I can understand

1:22:32someone doesn't want to but I do think

1:22:35it's very it's very important to say

1:22:37whether or not that

1:22:45with that.

1:22:48[clears throat]

1:22:49>> One adjustment that we'll have to make,

1:22:51it's something we don't really have

1:22:53stated, but if we have minors,

1:22:57just basically just

1:23:02[clears throat]

1:23:06we're getting more.

1:23:08>> Yes.

1:23:15I'm not sure.

1:23:19But if they choose

1:23:22>> if they if the maners choose to tell

1:23:26their name and address

1:23:28>> I think what we should probably do is

1:23:31they don't address that they should say

1:23:33their name

1:23:37>> and so currently we don't ask on the the

1:23:39registration if they're over 18. So,

1:23:41should that be a question that we ask?

1:23:45>> Are you over 18? Because we don't

1:23:47>> think we may need to start asking

1:23:48because I mean I I don't I'm not exactly

1:23:51comfortable with like

1:23:5414,

1:23:55you know, 14 here's my address.

1:24:01>> So, it's it's just just a small point of

1:24:03clarification, but I think it's

1:24:05something that we want, you know, if if

1:24:07there were if there were a question as

1:24:10to whether or not

1:24:13always

1:24:19>> sometimes it's a good thing you know

1:24:22it's something that my nerd thinks is

1:24:26proud of right they would like to say hi

1:24:29I'm an apex high student my name is

1:24:31what1 what1 what1 what1 what1 what1

1:24:31what1 what1 what1 what1 what

1:24:33>> right yeah I mean you know we'll let

1:24:36them and their parent

1:24:40I I would I think we would be in a

1:24:44better position that you know if someone

1:24:46says

1:24:49that

1:24:51don't provide

1:24:53>> maybe just to

1:24:56they say

1:25:00I said that's between them

1:25:08I think there's a

1:25:10I think

1:25:12the bigger issue I think there's a

1:25:14tradition

1:25:19I think the question revolves around us

1:25:21like if we say please address

1:25:31the polic says must

1:25:34or must. So that's the question or you

1:25:38maybe ask them again and then the other

1:25:40options you can speak but we just take

1:25:42account in the future

1:25:46their comments accordingly if they may

1:25:48somewhat

1:25:51so so would it be and what I'm hearing

1:25:54is we need to check with legal on

1:25:55whether we can even say must we may not

1:25:57even can say that anymore or may never

1:26:00could but so speakers are encouraged to

1:26:03provide their name and address do we

1:26:04want that even be the format or should

1:26:06we say speakers are encouraged to

1:26:08provide their naming the county in which

1:26:10they reside.

1:26:11county.

1:26:22>> Congress, they want to know whether you

1:26:24live in their district,

1:26:25>> right?

1:26:25>> And it's not that your voice is

1:26:28uh deluded or or prioritized. But there

1:26:32is a weight to the fact somebody who has

1:26:34skin in the game in that

1:26:38>> respons

1:26:43probably not correct.

1:26:51>> We don't I mean they they plug it in on

1:26:53the computer and then we go by that

1:26:54address before when they would handw

1:26:56write it. We don't verify that.

1:26:59There's there's not a verification, if

1:27:01you will. I mean, it's on an honor

1:27:03system. We trust that what they wrote

1:27:05would do. Now, the as we tell them, you

1:27:09know, when they sign up to speak, if

1:27:10there is a member of the elected body or

1:27:12staff that wants to follow up with you,

1:27:14it's helpful if you provide correct

1:27:15information.

1:27:24>> I mean, I don't think we have the

1:27:29language, no more responsibility to

1:27:31verify,

1:27:32>> right?

1:27:33>> You know, no one is nobody's providing

1:27:35any testimony. So, you know,

1:27:40I think knowing where they're from

1:27:42helps, at least in my processing

1:27:45figure out, what's the level? Somebody

1:27:49from Texas is not going to get nearly as

1:27:52much of my concern as somebody from

1:28:04>> Yeah, that's right.

1:28:10>> [laughter]

1:28:11[clears throat]

1:28:12>> So,

1:28:14so we're good with encourage to provide

1:28:16their name and then check in with the

1:28:18legal and then um the city in which you

1:28:21reside unless you're a minor and then

1:28:22it's the county, right? And then um from

1:28:26should there be a restriction on the

1:28:28applause and hand clapping because the

1:28:31current says that you shall refrain from

1:28:34They're

1:28:39not

1:28:44supposed

1:28:56to

1:28:59you if you have the restrictions on the

1:29:01front end and it's Of course, it really

1:29:03bugs everybody. Then it doesn't look as

1:29:05though we're making favoritism or

1:29:07providing favor for any comments that

1:29:09come before us. There are some comments

1:29:11that come before us where you know there

1:29:13may be applause and maybe extended if we

1:29:15say no we're done with that applause and

1:29:18we are necessarily showing favor of this

1:29:20one of the comments and to be clear it's

1:29:23public

1:29:25not for us.

1:29:27We're not necessarily the audience.

1:29:32I think the problem not being a lawyer

1:29:34is um restrictions on applause

1:29:39like

1:29:40there's that which fine there's also

1:29:43gearing there's also booming there's

1:29:45also other ways of expressing yourself

1:29:47which really

1:29:49meetings

1:29:51and again as a non lawyer my assumption

1:29:54is it was constantly problematic to say

1:29:56yes you can no you can't move correct

1:29:59yes you can hands. But no, you can't,

1:30:02you know, start shouting down people

1:30:05like either it's a meeting that's uh

1:30:09professional and there's the forum and

1:30:11people are free to express themselves

1:30:15or the other end. I know a lot of times

1:30:17in the middle, but I think that's what

1:30:19the problem is different types of speech

1:30:21expressions can't restrict yourself

1:30:24either. It's

1:30:26to your point and it's great and I can

1:30:30this is a philosophy

1:30:33that you

1:30:35that said I think if you're looking to

1:30:38express that support or sign up and

1:30:42say what you need to say I think part of

1:30:45it to me um

1:30:49the the undermining of tomorrow I think

1:30:52it brings the seriousness of our

1:30:55meetings can't clap in a congressional

1:30:58hearing

1:30:59That's it's

1:31:01unprofessional.

1:31:03This is how business should be handled.

1:31:06It's in a way where uh folks come and

1:31:09express their

1:31:12pleasure or otherwise.

1:31:16It is I mean can't one type of

1:31:19expression and not the other. Um but

1:31:22yeah, I think the purpose of it was to

1:31:24not disrupt the meeting. So that's what

1:31:26it is. Whether it's laughing, whatever

1:31:27it may be. You couldn't say no, you

1:31:29can't. You can't clap. It's a question

1:31:31of whether or not you're interrupting.

1:31:37>> Well, it's also I mean, if you add it

1:31:39up,

1:31:40then you're spending extra time.

1:31:43>> So, I think it

1:31:50>> I don't I'm not going to ask.

1:31:53I'm just going to say that that it is an

1:31:56additional If you want to clap, sign up.

1:32:00>> Okay.

1:32:03>> Yeah.

1:32:05>> Clapping is a form of

1:32:10the same.

1:32:12>> And so speaking of that, are y'all

1:32:16>> So speaking of that, are you okay with

1:32:18them signing up to say nothing?

1:32:22I think you have

1:32:30>> not really an issue.

1:32:34>> It's not an issue that we have had here,

1:32:36but there have been some communities

1:32:38where the speaker has got up to speak

1:32:40and said they wanted to use their time

1:32:41for silence and the presiding officer

1:32:44has said, "No, you have to speak." And

1:32:47that's the issue that we're trying to

1:32:48avoid here. Because it sounds like

1:32:50everybody's maybe not okay with it, but

1:32:52they understand that if they get up

1:32:53there and they use their three minutes

1:32:54to sit in silence,

1:32:56>> three minutes silence, too long.

1:32:58>> Is it

1:33:01is it possible? Um is it reasonable say

1:33:05if you want to come up and and use your

1:33:08time silence that it's

1:33:12a minute or is that?

1:33:13>> No. No. You treat everybody

1:33:15>> thing. I was going to say and you treat

1:33:16people different.

1:33:18your expression.

1:33:24[laughter]

1:33:25>> Okay.

1:33:28>> All right. Perfect.

1:33:31I think we're good on that one. Um, so

1:33:34press release and social media again,

1:33:35preferred practices. Um, and so just

1:33:40recapping on the the survey results. So,

1:33:44six of you. So, all of you said um yes

1:33:47that you prefer a disclaimer on

1:33:49official.

1:33:52>> Yes.

1:33:53>> Okay. Okay. Um allow comments on

1:33:56official accounts. So, that was split,

1:33:59but um three of you said always. Um

1:34:04should the policy include professional

1:34:05conduct standards? Yes. Again, five of

1:34:09you answered. Um, may elected official

1:34:12issue press release statements. And so

1:34:14that was a split uh between yes or yes

1:34:18with advanced notice and yes with a

1:34:19disclaimer. Um, so we'll talk through

1:34:22some of that. Uh, must officials notify

1:34:25the council email group when assigning

1:34:26to media request. Um,

1:34:30always high impact and then some said

1:34:32no. So it's split again. Um, officials

1:34:34speak only for themselves.

1:34:37Six of you said yes. Can elected

1:34:39officials independently issue emergency

1:34:41statements? Um, two of you said yes with

1:34:44a disclaimer and two of you said no. Um,

1:34:46and then one of course was related to

1:34:48the topic. And should the town archive

1:34:51archival capacity?

1:34:55Should the town archive official

1:34:57capacity social media post? So, in other

1:34:59words, you would sign up for the archive

1:35:01social, however the town currently uh

1:35:04manages their social media archiving.

1:35:06Um, and five of you said yes. you wanted

1:35:09that to be done. Um what method again

1:35:12through the archive social um when you

1:35:16have private messages uh involving t

1:35:19town business and again town business on

1:35:22other platforms um a majority of you

1:35:25said yes you'll provide them but only

1:35:27upon request and so you would be

1:35:29responsible for retaining them. Um are

1:35:32you allowed to engage with town staff

1:35:34and social media? Majority of you said

1:35:35no. uh handling constituent request.

1:35:40Three of you said that you would prefer

1:35:41to redirect them through official

1:35:43channels. Um two of you said a

1:35:46combination of and then one said

1:35:47discretionary.

1:35:49Um and so the big overarching thing

1:35:52behind this is preserving the official

1:35:55rights while protecting the integrity of

1:35:56the town.

1:35:58um

1:36:00some of the council feedback that had

1:36:01been received. Um should there be a

1:36:05consequence if a member deletes town

1:36:07related communication before the record

1:36:08retention period expires?

1:36:11Should the disclaimer cover official

1:36:13capacity versus town operated? So levels

1:36:17of accounts, we'll talk about that in a

1:36:19minute. Um, should the central process

1:36:21be defined in a specific policy or

1:36:23incorporated in the council's rules of

1:36:24procedure, which makes it cover more

1:36:27than just that one policy?

1:36:30Who should be responsible for reviewing

1:36:31policy violations?

1:36:33Is due process accounted for? Should

1:36:36campaign seasons be defined? And should

1:36:38the policy encourage members to not use

1:36:41private messaging platforms?

1:36:47So I open it up for discussion because

1:36:49we need some direction on this.

1:36:50>> So if I I think that by you know the

1:36:55thing that's always been in my mind is

1:36:59there needs to be a clear separation

1:37:02between things that are done under your

1:37:08things that are done under you as a

1:37:10private individual. And the parts that

1:37:13have always been the difficult it

1:37:15becomes very easy to make that blur. And

1:37:17part of that is because what we don't

1:37:19have is if you look at the White House

1:37:21social media, the White House social

1:37:24media account, the president's social

1:37:26media account never changes.

1:37:31Now, you may say, "Wait, I see Trump."

1:37:34That's a separate account.

1:37:37And and and I think what's important to

1:37:40remember is that there's a separate

1:37:41account that is the president separate

1:37:44account at the White House. And when you

1:37:46look at that White House account, if you

1:37:48go back two years, you'll see that it's,

1:37:50you know, bunch of Biden stuff that was

1:37:52there. And then January 1st switches.

1:37:56Um, and that's because the government

1:37:59has it purchased and has basically

1:38:01created that account. Doesn't stop the

1:38:04president from being able to post under

1:38:07his own private account.

1:38:10We know that.

1:38:12But there is a distinction and the

1:38:14things that are ultimately managed by

1:38:16the white house

1:38:19carry a different

1:38:21level of perception as well as different

1:38:24level of maintenance scrutiny

1:38:27requirements and things of that nature.

1:38:29Now, you know, there's presidential

1:38:30records act.

1:38:36If you didn't have a presidential

1:38:37records act, anything that's on that

1:38:39White House page is definitely going to

1:38:40be archived. Anything that's coming out

1:38:42of that true social post isn't

1:38:44necessarily subject to that archival uh

1:38:49requirement outside of the presidential

1:38:51record. So, to me, that's where we start

1:38:53to see the distinction.

1:38:55You can have an account that's an

1:38:58official account that's managed by the

1:39:01government. You can have your own

1:39:04account. You can even have your own

1:39:06account that's a campaign account that's

1:39:07a separate one that's not unusual but

1:39:10understanding that having that dividing

1:39:12line so people have an understanding

1:39:14that you know if I'm saying something

1:39:16under my

1:39:18you know my campaign account on my

1:39:20personality

1:39:22I'm not speaking on behalf of the six

1:39:25folks

1:39:28>> so I think just to make sure that I'm

1:39:29understanding and following what you're

1:39:31saying so in the example that you gave

1:39:33the white house account would be like

1:39:36the town's account which is managed by

1:39:38the town

1:39:39>> and then and you're saying have two

1:39:42individual accounts. One that's a social

1:39:45media like Ed Gray council member that's

1:39:47managed by the town and an Ed Gray one

1:39:50that's just personal

1:39:52>> or campaign.

1:39:52>> Yeah like like gray. So there's like

1:39:55councilman Ed Gray. It's I put stuff on

1:39:59it. I post it, but it's not it's it's

1:40:01right. It's actually owned managed by

1:40:04the town. It's got the town uh you know,

1:40:06it's got the town logos. It's got all

1:40:08that sort of stuff. And anything I post

1:40:09on that ultimately has to be

1:40:12essentially, you know, essentially

1:40:14vetted by the position of if I don't

1:40:17want to say in that, I can always use

1:40:18that person. [clears throat] But and and

1:40:22then when I leave that content of that

1:40:24that that council member and gray page

1:40:26then reverts over to whoever sits in.

1:40:31>> Okay.

1:40:31>> You still archive everything that I

1:40:33said. Everything is still there.

1:40:35Everything is still still there because

1:40:37I I mean the the distinction that I want

1:40:41us to be able to ultimately address is

1:40:44there's going to be a time when I'm

1:40:46saying things as counsel.

1:40:49There's going to be times when I say

1:40:51things that's just Ed Gray

1:40:54and the things that I say as Ed Gray

1:40:56shouldn't be confused the same things as

1:40:58Councilman Ed because I'm assuming that

1:41:00anything I say as Councilman Ed Gray is

1:41:02something that I basically signed Arno

1:41:05Terry Jo you know all of us have signed

1:41:09under what I've said because it seems a

1:41:13little unfair for me to make statements

1:41:15I'm saying this as a representative of

1:41:17the council

1:41:19without actually getting the comment and

1:41:22the

1:41:23you know the folks on the count and I

1:41:25think it's incumbent upon me to make

1:41:26sure I'm not saying anything that I'm

1:41:29writing a check for everybody else who's

1:41:30bought here in cash

1:41:32[clears throat]

1:41:34opinion or

1:41:36I want to go back to information

1:41:40with legal what's the legal team on this

1:41:44>> in terms of what could be done if

1:41:45somebody's in violation of it

1:41:47>> who provides

1:41:48Yeah.

1:41:48>> Yeah. So, there's a few things and one

1:41:50thing to that I'll also jump to. If you

1:41:52want to have any of that sort of

1:41:53information, I would suggest putting it

1:41:54in your ethics policy in terms of what

1:41:56is a violation of what happens and how

1:41:57that all goes. Um, but yes, so as

1:42:00elected official, if you still have

1:42:01first amendment right to speak, so you

1:42:03don't lose that just because you're uh

1:42:06an elected official. There is a due

1:42:08process concern um certainly before any

1:42:10sort of action is taken against council

1:42:12member. Um, and those actions for the

1:42:14most part would be taken by the council.

1:42:16It's not going to be you and myself or

1:42:17Randy or the town because it's it's your

1:42:19guys policy about what you expect of

1:42:21each other. Um yeah, there's many

1:42:24limitations. I agree with what you're

1:42:25saying and it could be viewed just as if

1:42:27on your personal page you said I as

1:42:29council member Grace like this. Well,

1:42:31now you are speaking as a council member

1:42:32even though it's on your personal page.

1:42:33I think what you're trying to say is you

1:42:35would not put those on that page and on

1:42:37your town page is where you would put

1:42:39them. So yeah, there's in terms of what

1:42:41we can say in a policy or what you say

1:42:44in a policy, we can't say this is going

1:42:46to be limited. Um, I think what this is

1:42:48aiming at is trying to distinguish

1:42:50whether you're speaking for the town

1:42:52versus you're speaking for yourself.

1:42:53It's your personal opinion about a town

1:42:55matter versus this is the council's

1:42:57opinion or this is my opinion as a

1:42:58council member that I intend to act on

1:43:01or take on. Because really there's

1:43:03there's three level

1:43:07two

1:43:09personal

1:43:10>> but really those official they don't

1:43:11exist.

1:43:13We only have personal.

1:43:14>> Exactly.

1:43:16>> But inside the personal account bucket

1:43:18there is uh Terry Maf,

1:43:23you know, under the color of my

1:43:25capacity, but it's still a personal

1:43:27there is Terry Maf

1:43:32and there is

1:43:34Facebook page where you ask my friend to

1:43:36look at there's different levels there

1:43:38and different expectations beliefs what

1:43:41to say. I think that's why the policy

1:43:43really focused on just don't have

1:43:48say the other problem I pointed out

1:43:50policy to Allen is I didn't go

1:43:54one and then sometimes this is you know

1:43:57operating

1:43:59council but during election season

1:44:01changes

1:44:03you know itself go back and forth try to

1:44:06keep each one

1:44:09and um you know I think it's reasonable

1:44:12that you just do one account changes. So

1:44:14I think it's a little too

1:44:17I don't think it's accurate to say you

1:44:19can label because that change based on

1:44:22how much use

1:44:24based on time just

1:44:28but I think that label is what gives us

1:44:32the distinction as to

1:44:36not necessarily what you're saying for

1:44:39your impact. It's what you're saying for

1:44:40the impact

1:44:43here. We'll use an example of this. Not

1:44:45to beat up on here, but if you were to

1:44:49post on your Facebook page,

1:44:53um, you know, the Terry Mappers

1:45:00did us a disservice by, uh, approving

1:45:03the, uh, Wake

1:45:06Partnership.

1:45:07You put that out there and you say I'm

1:45:09saying this as [clears throat]

1:45:11as

1:45:13mayor approach town of Apex.

1:45:18Is that now being incarded upon me?

1:45:20>> No.

1:45:21>> And explain why.

1:45:23>> Well, I think it depends on the

1:45:24statement that you say as mayor.

1:45:29I say I think this is bad.

1:45:31>> Like I said, we're going to take a look

1:45:34at it from where the bucket is coming

1:45:35from. If I'm saying this and I've got a

1:45:38letter head that says

1:45:41Marpex,

1:45:43North Carolina and I page

1:45:46>> regardless of where it's at, but let's

1:45:48say that's where it's coming from. When

1:45:50you say that, is it a reasonable

1:45:53expectation

1:45:55for the average reader to say

1:45:58[clears throat]

1:45:59Terry is saying this on behalf of the

1:46:02people

1:46:03>> almost because I think you said

1:46:06letterhead from the page. It's also

1:46:08pointing out that belowhead is a

1:46:10paragraph statement saying

1:46:12>> yeah,

1:46:16but I'm just talking about I just want

1:46:18to I'm going to break this down because

1:46:19you're you're you're saying that the the

1:46:22issue to me is the distinction of from

1:46:25the average person on the street

1:46:28because the thing we're trying to

1:46:29address here is how do we make it clear

1:46:32that what I'm saying is either

1:46:34information or

1:46:36and I think The way that you have to

1:46:38look that is that's a sub that that

1:46:40that's that's either a subjective view

1:46:42or an objective.

1:46:44And if I'm looking at it from the view

1:46:45of the person on the screen and I see

1:46:47Terry Mappy has said this,

1:46:51let's identify where it's coming from

1:46:53because the next question is going to be

1:46:55so are you going to catch, you know,

1:46:57when people are yelling at you about

1:46:58this, they're going to say you don't

1:47:00have the right to represent my thoughts

1:47:01on this. Or are they going to come to me

1:47:04and say Terry as their protest doesn't

1:47:06have my

1:47:09is it representing my thoughts on this?

1:47:13And that's why I say that's why this

1:47:16this policy [clears throat] is a thing

1:47:18that we've got to take a look at because

1:47:20ultimately as we speak under our titles,

1:47:24our titles are not for us. Our titles

1:47:27are we are on behalf of the people of

1:47:30Apex.

1:47:31>> Right. agree and we can't speak for the

1:47:34people of Apex in my humble opinion

1:47:38in a way that will be contrary to what

1:47:43their views are and the thing that we

1:47:46have to ultimately line on is there are

1:47:48very few things that we will get 100%

1:47:57I

1:48:00doesn't matter it's not

1:48:03so whether we're stating facts or you

1:48:07know the blow by blow how meeting went

1:48:09down or personal opinion let's assume

1:48:11it's on our page the page that we

1:48:14maintain that we manage individual it is

1:48:17a thing right and so what what I fear is

1:48:20that to to your point

1:48:23to the casual reader right if we make an

1:48:26official use the signia as our e sign or

1:48:30would like to say that now we're

1:48:33blurring the line between what is

1:48:36official and what is not okay and I

1:48:39think that's that's dangerous I worry

1:48:42about that optisation and I worry about

1:48:45the legal implementation of that because

1:48:47now if I make something look really

1:48:49official and make it a statement that

1:48:51looks like it's on behalf of the town

1:48:54right

1:48:56at point in time does that you know lead

1:49:00lead somebody to to try to derive some

1:49:02rights from that that my existence right

1:49:05so if I say like you know at the time

1:49:07we're going to you know provide free ice

1:49:08cream uh every Friday afternoon as trash

1:49:12people show up fresh and like you know

1:49:15at what point in time does that become a

1:49:17real thing that the town is now

1:49:18committed to there's there's precis

1:49:21in in

1:49:24where cases like that have committed a

1:49:26um because an individual said something

1:49:30on a basic official

1:49:35way where I I think we need a very

1:49:37strong delineation between officials aka

1:49:40town manage

1:49:42and everything else that we put out

1:49:44there needs to be clearly explained as

1:49:47this is my page my page alone I do not

1:49:50represent the position in town and

1:49:52that's not there you know of course it

1:49:54can't hold anybody to it but I think

1:49:56that's where you know ethically you know

1:49:59I think we are obligated to make that

1:50:01clear to like you know who are we

1:50:04representing I don't know me you know

1:50:08here's my disclos

1:50:19these are good points I go back to

1:50:22another question

1:50:25correct

1:50:27So there's it'll be a couple things. So

1:50:29the use of a disclaimer has gone a long

1:50:31way before and saying that's not an

1:50:32official action because the disclaimer

1:50:34said this is my personal opinion and you

1:50:35could go outside that because you made

1:50:37it so clearly an official action but it

1:50:39goes a long way in terms of whether or

1:50:41not that's government speech whether or

1:50:43not it's something that like if you

1:50:44tried to take it down to somebody post

1:50:46and they said well now you've committed

1:50:48a first amendment violation because they

1:50:50have a right to and this is more page

1:50:52but that disclaimer does help. It's not

1:50:54iron flat, but it makes a big difference

1:50:56in separating my personal opinion, even

1:50:58my personal opinion as a council member

1:51:00versus this is the opinion of the

1:51:01council. So yes, you still have a first

1:51:04amendment right to speak on behalf of

1:51:06yourselves. If you are speaking and

1:51:08claiming to be on behalf of the council,

1:51:10then now you're you're speaking as an

1:51:12official action. So yes, there there is

1:51:14some concern about is that obligate

1:51:16town? Is that the speech of the town?

1:51:18Then yeah, that's where it's always

1:51:21going to be. I mean, it's going to be

1:51:23the content of what's actually put on

1:51:24there. That's always going to be, you

1:51:26know, individualized.

1:51:30I have a question before I

1:51:33thought. Are there

1:51:37best practices

1:51:40by municipalities or counties in the

1:51:42last year?

1:51:46I know uh the only one I saw with Durham

1:51:48has probably like 2017 they established

1:51:51their policies for social media.

1:51:54>> That's right.

1:51:55>> That's the only one that came up in

1:51:56research.

1:51:58>> This doesn't seem that unusual. I mean

1:52:00literally every like I mean you know I

1:52:04mean like the department of justice has

1:52:06a specific policy that says you know

1:52:09department employees are required at all

1:52:11times to adhere to certain government

1:52:13rules standard

1:52:15>> true and and and then and there's also

1:52:19that and this policy applies to

1:52:22those who are departmental level

1:52:25departmental level and presidential

1:52:27appointees I mean it's it doesn't seem

1:52:30as though it's that difficult to be able

1:52:33to say.

1:52:35You can still say what you want to say.

1:52:38That's not a limitation. You just have a

1:52:41limitation on the platform.

1:52:47And I think we to be to be clear, I mean

1:52:50the town has communication guidelines

1:52:53and communication policies. you know, I

1:52:56don't know necessarily that it regulates

1:52:57employees, but I know that we have

1:52:59standards around how the towns will

1:53:01communicate. Um, I don't know that we

1:53:03can, again, going back to first

1:53:05amendment rights for employees, I don't

1:53:07know that we can regulate how an

1:53:08employee um utilizes their social media.

1:53:12I don't know of but

1:53:24talking

1:53:27a little bit

1:53:29really. So a couple things

1:53:35say which is this is hard we are

1:53:39but we as a society are building this

1:53:42plane as we fly it and we don't really

1:53:45know. So do you believe in

1:53:48constitutional

1:53:50do believe in um clear communication

1:53:54where it's possible about saying what is

1:53:58um uh I think one of the things that

1:54:01that I have

1:54:06forefront of my mind is constitutional

1:54:08protections but what are we aspiring to

1:54:12what do we want to be seen as we seen as

1:54:17communicating clearly reasonably and

1:54:19respectfully even when we sharply

1:54:22disagree on

1:54:23So, uh, those are some of the things

1:54:25that are on my mind. Another is know

1:54:28which platform you're on. So, what you

1:54:30laid out earlier, right, about um the

1:54:33different accounts um and switch over,

1:54:36you know, when you see pus switch over

1:54:40some of that's dated, it's X and it was

1:54:43so clean a decade ago, but it's not. So,

1:54:48where I where I um where I is for

1:54:53instance speaking of um when Mayor Pro

1:54:56Tim expressed his position his opinion

1:55:00on the way county commission's vote you

1:55:03actually did say that if I can this

1:55:05might help reconcile something maybe but

1:55:08you actually spoke during your

1:55:10announcements and petitions and said

1:55:12that and so that's you not speaking on

1:55:14behalf of all six of us it's you

1:55:17speaking in your official capacity

1:55:19saying that you as a government- elected

1:55:21official disagree with another elected

1:55:24body's decision.

1:55:26And that was clean and clear in the

1:55:29room, right? We all know and we're all

1:55:31there in the flesh. But how that is

1:55:34communicated online,

1:55:37I have a hard time saying that you

1:55:39shouldn't say that from your

1:55:42a chair mayor prom aex town council

1:55:46because that is your opinion. But I

1:55:48didn't I didn't feel like you were

1:55:50dragging me into that as my opinion as

1:55:54well. And so that's I just want to say

1:55:56if we can [clears throat] be as

1:55:58uh um reasonable with one another and

1:56:02and collaborative, we can maybe work

1:56:04through this because it's not easy. And

1:56:06I think when we have strong opinions,

1:56:08it's because we're necessarily

1:56:09reflecting on one specific scenario that

1:56:11may not

1:56:14let me just be clear like I um you know

1:56:17like a mayor I I would say that I

1:56:20constitute right to express my opinion.

1:56:22I think there are people who expect to

1:56:25know my opinion ask

1:56:29someone it's never my intention to

1:56:31speak. I made every attempt to make that

1:56:34clear. I'll make if the the council

1:56:36adopts a policy which requires further

1:56:40clarification, I would call policy to

1:56:42make that clear on my page. It does say

1:56:45I'm smart. I don't even

1:56:50disclaime

1:56:52the background images are my campaign.

1:56:54It's not you know so could it be clear?

1:56:59Katie, you always could be clearer, but

1:57:01I would say I've acted a good faith to

1:57:03be very very clear. Anytime it comes up,

1:57:05someone ask

1:57:07because I think people

1:57:10like to to assume the worst or whatever.

1:57:13Sometimes after saying you're but I've

1:57:17always clarified that it's my intention

1:57:19not to if policy that requests further

1:57:24clarity. I'm happy to to be clear.

1:57:27Just to clarify,

1:57:29not making a criticism or accusation

1:57:32about this person. I simply wanted to

1:57:35use this as the example and even took

1:57:38some of the pieces out because to me

1:57:40it's not

1:57:42everyone can have an opin. It's where

1:57:45you put your opinion that makes it look

1:57:48as though you're speaking on an official

1:57:50basis. That's the distinction. and

1:57:53you're I mean that's that's the sole

1:57:56reason why I use your example of okay

1:57:59you know and hence why I stripped it

1:58:01down and said no we're not talking about

1:58:03whether or not you have you're doing all

1:58:06the things but basically set this is

1:58:10you know that's fine

1:58:13that we have to ask ourselves if we

1:58:15don't have those safe we don't have

1:58:18those things on what's making the

1:58:21average person on the street and say,

1:58:23you know, this is this is Ed's

1:58:27versus Edial.

1:58:32That's to me where we have to and to me

1:58:35the easiest line, the easiest way of

1:58:37making that line clear,

1:58:39give us all regular, give us all an

1:58:41official uh social media account. We can

1:58:46say the stuff that we want to do that's

1:58:49informationational from there.

1:58:51still would have to comply with and

1:58:53behold

1:59:00me. But if I want to say, you know what,

1:59:02we passed this thing yesterday, but I

1:59:04disagree with it. And I want to say that

1:59:06as my opinion,

1:59:09I'm gonna do it on something that makes

1:59:10it very clear that I'm not speaking.

1:59:14I'm going to put any labels. I'm going

1:59:15to put

1:59:20in some language like in the policy, the

1:59:23recommended policy that basically says

1:59:25put in the disclaimer.

1:59:29You know, simply my my perspective and

1:59:31my perspective because the thing that

1:59:34we've got to be able to make sure that

1:59:35people are not creating is a confusion

1:59:38in the public as to what is being said

1:59:42by them because when we talk as

1:59:45officials, we're talking to them.

1:59:52on your personal social media accounts

1:59:59that way.

2:00:00I just don't believe this statement gets

2:00:04to where you're trying to go

2:00:06and I go back to the constitution that

2:00:10I totally get everything. I guess now

2:00:16process like

2:00:18What happens

2:00:19when you talk about information

2:00:22you

2:00:25information that's not read or answered

2:00:28that's very loud

2:00:31that work? Yeah.

2:00:32>> Um it's you know it's very confusing if

2:00:37for example both mayor and Terry you

2:00:41both you know um post constantly

2:00:46almost many every day right and yes from

2:00:51your that mayor mayor John and Terry Mah

2:00:56prole you know from you under those

2:00:59title like Terry you had portal like

2:01:03people can submit um their problem

2:01:06like serve the residence. People regard

2:01:09that as come official business and for a

2:01:13year you constantly post problems you

2:01:17know and the concerns from the residents

2:01:20people regard that as official business.

2:01:25No matter how much you see it's my

2:01:27personal is official business. It's very

2:01:31confusing. Um, but if Terry posts

2:01:34something, you know, like a family

2:01:36picture or go picnic on Terry Mahi,

2:01:39that's on that personal account. Nobody

2:01:41thinks it's count business.

2:01:45So, it's that's why I think um it's no

2:01:49way you how much you argue like this

2:01:52this my personal thing personal and you

2:01:54put disclaimer on the top. No use.

2:01:58people regard that as some official

2:02:01basis. it. So I think we should you know

2:02:05make it clear

2:02:07you know maybe have some uh limitations.

2:02:14>> I agree. I'll tell you

2:02:18see where everyone's coming from. don't

2:02:20know what the answer is but I will I

2:02:22will reflect on this challenge which is

2:02:25and I agree with what you were saying

2:02:27earlier cas on on some of the things

2:02:30that we can do to put in in practice

2:02:33when you're scrolling through a feed

2:02:36like you're not doing all that right if

2:02:38you're just scrolling through the feed

2:02:40and you see that Sue said this

2:02:44said that and you're not yes you could

2:02:47go and go to a bit extra place but I I

2:02:49think you do have to consider to your

2:02:51point that perception is reality. I'm

2:02:54still unclear. I'm not disagreeing or

2:02:56agreeing. I'm still unclear on how um

2:02:59and I think that a good exercise is

2:03:04the mayor's position on the way. How is

2:03:07that best express? I don't I don't know

2:03:09right now based on the things we just

2:03:10talked about.

2:03:12>> I don't think

2:03:24you know

2:03:27whether I agree or don't agree isn't

2:03:29really the issue. The reason why I say

2:03:32the easier solution set is having a

2:03:36separate

2:03:40town

2:03:42only

2:03:43social media is that it will give us the

2:03:47premature of being official

2:03:51and it will have the vetting to make

2:03:53sure that things that are in that are

2:03:55actually performing and are going to be

2:03:58there. Will there be limited things that

2:04:00will be upset on that? I think so. But

2:04:03it still doesn't restrict or stop you

2:04:05from putting your face on your personal

2:04:07page. Now, to answer the real question

2:04:09of

2:04:10what does a disclaimer do, a disclaimer

2:04:14stops me from getting for what you say.

2:04:18That's what a disclaimer.

2:04:23>> And just for for what it's worth, I

2:04:25think a couple of the conversations very

2:04:27helpful. We'll get it on some of these

2:04:29scenarios, but I think the the big

2:04:32picture thing to go back to is because

2:04:35of the first amendment rights, these and

2:04:37and Durham call this as well, these are

2:04:39guidelines. These are preferred

2:04:40practices. So, keeping in mind that, you

2:04:43know, if you all choose to go in this

2:04:45direction and you adopt this policy, it

2:04:48is the council's desire to say these are

2:04:51what we would prefer you do. Now, if you

2:04:54don't do it, that's where it gets a

2:04:55little bit sticky as to what's the due

2:04:57process and what's the teeth and what's

2:04:59the accountability meth metric. But it's

2:05:02important to note that these are the

2:05:05policy tries to get at best practices

2:05:07and guidelines in which you all believe

2:05:09are in a good faith effort to retain

2:05:12first amendment rights, but also respect

2:05:16and the integrity of the town's official

2:05:18position on a particular action. Does

2:05:20that make does that help clarify some of

2:05:23that?

2:05:26Go ahead. I think the two points I

2:05:28cannot reconcile myself

2:05:32is

2:05:34I think every individual one of us

2:05:39have a declared

2:05:41statement of wanting to be transparent

2:05:44to the public

2:05:47and then by creating social media

2:05:50accounts

2:05:54you know what is official and what is uh

2:05:57we're not going to do this claim that

2:06:00you know helps spectify that

2:06:03I think it's completely counter to that

2:06:05state objective being administering

2:06:10and that's what I have a hard time with

2:06:12you and and again I I'm worried about

2:06:16you know some legal research where you

2:06:20know municipalities or you know entities

2:06:22have been held accountable for what

2:06:25somebody in a personal capacity or in a

2:06:28personal Facebook based you know

2:06:30liability for town and you know that's

2:06:32great the disclaimer stops me being it's

2:06:36I think that goes for the town as well

2:06:39right like and you know I I I think we

2:06:42have an obligation to protect the town

2:06:46from that kind of liability right we

2:06:49have again a stated objective of being a

2:06:52transparent governing body I know some

2:06:55of

2:06:56But I'll just say your points but I know

2:07:00this is very protected

2:07:05right

2:07:08nobody's

2:07:18so I'm just sayingal

2:07:25And I can see that I'm just saying

2:07:29policy deferred whatever call it what is

2:07:33the t what is the due [clears throat]

2:07:36process because what I'm not clear about

2:07:39is if you say I don't like

2:07:44well I think you read you say

2:07:48[clears throat]

2:07:51it should be outside review

2:07:54process. That's all I'm saying always.

2:08:01>> So there's and again looking at Durham's

2:08:03ethics policy, I think they did a really

2:08:05good job kind of addressing that. So

2:08:06what they did is their uh social media

2:08:10are guidelines of best practices and in

2:08:12their ethics policy that kind of spelled

2:08:13out if somebody but it's not they

2:08:15violated that best practices. It's

2:08:18overall this is what our ethical

2:08:19expectation is. That might be a factor

2:08:20in it but it is kind of like

2:08:22Essentially, it's a complaint process.

2:08:24The attorney just reviews to see if the

2:08:25complaint is full. Not even not.

2:08:29>> Yeah.

2:08:31>> And then the next step would be the

2:08:33person who is accused of it would get

2:08:34notice of it gets complaint and then it

2:08:36is an outside council firm that's hired

2:08:38to investigate it.

2:08:41>> And that's but you don't have to do that

2:08:43for everything. You can have much lesser

2:08:45like talk about censure that there could

2:08:47be a warning letter. There could be a

2:08:48verbal reprimand. It doesn't have to go

2:08:50that far every time. So there's

2:08:52different levels of

2:08:57>> also I think the point about

2:09:04prevents us from exercising our

2:09:07rights.

2:09:10It's just making clear to follow his

2:09:13opinion versus what is official.

2:09:16>> There's another um point like like mayor

2:09:20and mayor pro temple they both have tons

2:09:24of followers. It takes many many years

2:09:28together

2:09:29this followers right?

2:09:31>> Yes it takes lots of effort. Yeah. Yeah.

2:09:35It takes lots of effort, many years of

2:09:37you know constantly you know providing

2:09:39information on the on your page. If

2:09:43there is a you know ton official you

2:09:46know if you give each one of us a ton

2:09:48official page there there'll be no

2:09:50followers and probably they don't have

2:09:52the incentive to post the thing because

2:09:54you need followers to learn about what

2:09:57you're posting. Right? If there's no

2:09:59followers who has the incentive post

2:10:01>> that's right.

2:10:03>> Yes. So that's why we have to balance

2:10:06think about some you know balance here.

2:10:12Um if you mind going back I was just

2:10:15going to say one of the other questions

2:10:16and I feel like for as long as we just

2:10:18had to tackle all that and it's still

2:10:20unclear in my mind entirely and I don't

2:10:22know I don't even know that

2:10:26uh this next

2:10:29just drive by but it is something I want

2:10:32to know which is we now have anonymous

2:10:35accounts responding to official

2:10:37government accounts or whatever is

2:10:39perceived as official

2:10:42much like our public forum. I think that

2:10:45um uh you know a like or a whatever

2:10:49whatever you want to do posting and

2:10:51you're saying things and especially if

2:10:54those comments need to stick now as part

2:10:56of record or otherwise you're violating.

2:10:59I think that there should be a

2:11:01requirement that be an actual person.

2:11:03You don't have to live apex, but I think

2:11:05it should say Alan Paul or Jay Reese

2:11:08instead of um you know Yankee fan 1968.

2:11:18>> I don't know that we can I don't know

2:11:19how we would determine.

2:11:21>> So what I'm saying is if you have a

2:11:23policy that says that you're not going

2:11:24to that that comments to be deleted,

2:11:27>> right?

2:11:29saying all this stuff is in real time

2:11:31unfolding

2:11:35people.

2:11:36>> Well, and and to be clear, it's it's not

2:11:38the platform, it's the topic, it's the

2:11:41matter, right?

2:11:42>> So, if they ping you and say, I I don't

2:11:46like what you wore yesterday, that

2:11:48wouldn't have to be retained. And if you

2:11:49delete it, I think that's fine because

2:11:51it's not

2:11:53>> town business. But if it is town

2:11:55business and it's anonymous then we are

2:11:57you know it does have to be retained.

2:12:00Does that clarify?

2:12:05>> It's dependent on the topic.

2:12:06>> Right.

2:12:09>> Speaking of

2:12:12mean I just I think it at the end of the

2:12:14day we're seeking out good intent and

2:12:17good governance.

2:12:18>> Correct. show the people their business

2:12:20done and it it's not all about

2:12:22entertainment should be boring knocking

2:12:24out things that

2:12:26matter like I talk about sewers and

2:12:28sidewalks and parks and just feel like

2:12:31stuff

2:12:34>> we should be

2:12:36>> yeah

2:12:37so I think a couple of the scenarios

2:12:39will maybe help so in this scenario um

2:12:42I'm gonna let y'all take a minute you

2:12:44got the slides in front of you a council

2:12:45member publishes a social media post

2:12:47criticizing a recent council decisions.

2:12:49The post uses the town's official logo

2:12:51or similar branding and identifies the

2:12:53individual as an apex council member.

2:12:56Residents interpret the post as the

2:12:57town's official position even though the

2:13:00council member is expressing an

2:13:01individual opinion.

2:13:04So, keeping with the the theme of the

2:13:06conversation we just had, um council

2:13:09members still have their first amend or

2:13:11any elected official still has their

2:13:12first amendment rights retained.

2:13:15um and their disagreement is not alone a

2:13:17policy violation. Um

2:13:21going back to should there be

2:13:23disclaimers on accounts? Um and what is

2:13:27it? What happens if there isn't?

2:13:42You put this one out on your own.

2:13:50You're saying policy.

2:13:53>> Correct.

2:13:54>> This agreement is not a violation of the

2:13:56best practices that's been identified.

2:14:04I think what the policy gets at the only

2:14:07real thing it tries to enforce is when

2:14:09we disagree with the body that

2:14:15disclaimer

2:14:17it's not that

2:14:23>> so in this scenario the disclaimer if

2:14:26the if the guidelines go as it is that

2:14:28would encourage members to have a

2:14:30disclaimer wouldn't require them and So

2:14:32if this member does this

2:14:48>> I think I think you need to ask I mean I

2:14:50would open that up to your colleagues. I

2:14:51mean I think that is a disclaimer where

2:14:53you're saying you're speaking for

2:14:54yourself but I would I don't know if

2:14:57your colleagues interpret it that way.

2:15:00violation,

2:15:05>> right?

2:15:11>> Official logo.

2:15:12>> This is not a really this is just an

2:15:13example. Let me be clear.

2:15:19>> Correct.

2:15:22>> So this is a this is a gradient. You

2:15:25know, you have the same statement you

2:15:27don't have. It looks the same.

2:15:34That's that's the point.

2:15:39>> All right. Scenario two. This is around

2:15:41private messages. So, uh, resident sends

2:15:43a private Facebook message to a council

2:15:45member requesting assistance with a

2:15:47neighborhood concern. The council member

2:15:49responds, exchanges several messages,

2:15:51and forwards the request action to the

2:15:53town manager. Months later, a public

2:15:55records request seeks communication

2:15:56related to the issue.

2:15:59Are the proposed responsibilities for

2:16:01retaining communication sufficiently

2:16:03clear that based on the survey results

2:16:06you all would retain them because you

2:16:08said it was request only. So that's

2:16:12that's what we're we're saying here is

2:16:14that you all would retain them. And then

2:16:15should the official capacity accounts be

2:16:17encouraged to use the town's automated

2:16:19archive social? You all said yes.

2:16:23>> So in this scenario,

2:16:25>> go ahead. You don't have official

2:16:29>> the the impression of an official

2:16:32account.

2:16:33>> Sure.

2:16:36>> Yeah. Unless unless in council member

2:16:38Gray's scenario was that we you all

2:16:40would and I don't know that you all

2:16:42support this, but he he is proposing

2:16:45that you all have the town establish

2:16:48you

2:16:50social media accounts, but to council

2:16:51moo's point, you're not going to have

2:16:53the same followers that you have. And

2:16:55does that create an added layer of

2:16:57>> Yeah. And actually waste of time

2:17:00>> personally. [laughter]

2:17:03Personally, you know, although I don't

2:17:05have so many followers like those guys,

2:17:08but I don't feel, you know, if I got a

2:17:10new page like zero followers, I don't

2:17:12want to see anything just

2:17:21>> okay. Okay. So again in this case the

2:17:25elected official will be responsible for

2:17:26retaining it. So when a records request

2:17:28comes in

2:17:29>> it's based on the topic that it is as to

2:17:32what schedule it falls under and and as

2:17:34to how long you have to retain it.

2:17:36>> Um and then your your current accounts

2:17:41that give the appearance that they're a

2:17:44town account or your official town

2:17:46account.

2:17:48There's an there will be sections in the

2:17:50policy or guidelines. Excuse me. the

2:17:52guidelines and best practices that

2:17:53encourage members to sign up under the

2:17:55archive social.

2:17:59>> I have another suggestion because like

2:18:02um the Facebook page, you can change the

2:18:04name of Facebook, right? Before I got

2:18:07elected, my pitch said su for apex and

2:18:11now it got sumo apex don't remember. If

2:18:15we can all go back to change our you

2:18:17know like um to the campaign name like

2:18:20terex or you know j or apex something

2:18:24like that then probably it can solve the

2:18:27you know perception from the you know

2:18:31viewers like I don't know but just a

2:18:34suggestion

2:18:35>> if I change back to superex I feel less

2:18:38responsibility

2:18:40whatever I post.

2:18:45[laughter]

2:18:47>> Okay. Uh, scenario three. A reporter

2:18:49contacts the mayor or any council member

2:18:51requesting comment regarding a

2:18:53controversial town matter that has

2:18:54attracted significant public attention.

2:18:57The mayor provides a statement which is

2:18:58subsequently published without other

2:19:00members of the governing body or the

2:19:01town's executive team being aware.

2:19:05Um so the mayor receives a request for

2:19:08comment on a significant town matter. Uh

2:19:11the current draft says the mayor is

2:19:13encouraged to notify the town manager

2:19:14and town clerk um to coordinate

2:19:17notification to the council members. Uh

2:19:19mayor provides an official statement

2:19:20without requiring approval

2:19:22co-distinguishing personal views from

2:19:24official council positions.

2:19:27Uh when should notification to other

2:19:29town council members or town leaders

2:19:30should be expected if at all? Um, is the

2:19:33draft distinction between routine

2:19:35inquiries and significant townwide

2:19:37matters appropriate? Um, and then how

2:19:40can we uh how can coordination occur

2:19:42without creating an approval

2:19:43requirement?

2:19:55[laughter]

2:20:00>> [laughter]

2:20:05>> In all serious

2:20:08um this incredibly subjective thing done

2:20:10great work. I it's hard because in real

2:20:14time most of us have day jobs. A

2:20:16reporter calls who determines whether or

2:20:18not it's a a um routine or significant.

2:20:22Um

2:20:24this is the this is one where

2:20:28see a lot more flexibility. This is

2:20:30>> so this is a situation that could happen

2:20:34and what if if if let's say the mayor or

2:20:39the mayor pro Tim goes out and speaks

2:20:41and it's an opposition to what the

2:20:43council feels the accountability metrics

2:20:46is to each other not to like right so

2:20:50not to come to the town manager or the

2:20:51town clerk to say hey the council

2:20:53doesn't agree with that position we now

2:20:55want to post something different because

2:20:57then that becomes comes

2:21:00that that's where it's trying to get it

2:21:01here.

2:21:03That needs to be very clear on what what

2:21:05you all want to happen because

2:21:08it's not

2:21:10>> well and so again

2:21:13first amendment so I don't think we want

2:21:16to stop anybody from providing personal

2:21:21commenters that's involved in town

2:21:26as long as again like we're changing

2:21:29official position. It is the will of

2:21:31council versus it is my opinion

2:21:35in you know in those in those statements

2:21:37right

2:21:39and I think the accountability is to

2:21:42each

2:21:44this comes down to respect

2:21:48hey I just got developer

2:21:50this is what I said

2:21:53you guys should I don't know like

2:21:58I don't want to police or you know like

2:22:02everything needs to go through an

2:22:04approval process

2:22:10and anything else

2:22:12at two and they got

2:22:15>> uh print dead

2:22:16>> absolutely

2:22:19>> and I'm on a zoom for my day job

2:22:23mortgage and made a comment to the N and

2:22:28it's about to get on like

2:22:32>> well and and you say I'm speaking on my

2:22:35behalf and they cut that out

2:22:38>> in their clip, right? You know

2:22:42>> I agree with um you know Shen I think

2:22:45when the reporter wants to reach out to

2:22:49you know any of us anyone of us actually

2:22:53he's expecting

2:22:55personal individual opinion because even

2:22:58on the town business we often our

2:23:01opinions often you know deeper right we

2:23:04all and many times we disagree with each

2:23:07other there's no way you um especially

2:23:10it's a controversial like town matter so

2:23:13I don't think we we need approval from

2:23:16others

2:23:17>> okay

2:23:19>> yeah and the the current policy doesn't

2:23:21suggest that there should be an approval

2:23:24um it says for high impact only there

2:23:26would be a notification sent to council

2:23:28members but as you all recall in the

2:23:30survey results three of you said that

2:23:33you wanted to be notified when it was

2:23:35high impact when the town was going to

2:23:37put out a release and I Yeah, it wasn't

2:23:39all of you, but that's what three of you

2:23:40said that the town putting out a release

2:23:45>> that is

2:23:46>> an elected official elected official

2:23:48putting out a release about a

2:23:50controversial town matter

2:23:55>> statement I'm thinking

2:23:58>> statement could be written statement

2:23:59could be interview statement could be

2:24:00phone call

2:24:03>> so I mean as long as y'all what I'm

2:24:06hearing is that y'all don't want to have

2:24:07an approval process It's on, you know,

2:24:10good faith effort. You're speaking for

2:24:11yourselves. As long as we're clear on

2:24:14that, it's happened before.

2:24:26And so the next one speaks to the

2:24:28personalized logo on social media

2:24:30accounts. Um although the logo does not

2:24:33use the town's official

2:24:36seal or logo, it incorporates similar

2:24:38colors, design elements, and um the

2:24:40council member begins publishing

2:24:42statements about uh a town initiative

2:24:44using that personalized branding. Uh

2:24:46several residents mistakenly believe the

2:24:49communications are official statements.

2:24:52Is the encouraged disclaimer language

2:24:54sufficient

2:24:56if a me member refuses to include the

2:24:59disclaimer language?

2:25:02What happens? And should the town have a

2:25:05role to publish a viewpoint of response?

2:25:07>> I think there should be clear

2:25:08delineation.

2:25:10This is important because uh symbolism

2:25:15there's you know picture

2:25:19words. Um there's an inference there

2:25:23that

2:25:26especially when you're talking about I

2:25:28think there's an absolute

2:25:31campaign logo in some

2:25:39legal way

2:25:42>> in terms of whether or not you have one

2:25:43I think it all comes down it's kind of

2:25:44the same thing disclaimer it's what is

2:25:46being portrayed is it the official

2:25:48action official statement of or is it

2:25:50their personal opinion? So, I think it's

2:25:51it's kind of in that same family. Is

2:25:54that what we're trying to get at is are

2:25:56we trying to distinguish between your

2:25:57personal opinion versus town opinion?

2:25:59Even if you're saying it's my personal

2:26:00opinion, but that logo is maybe

2:26:04portraying something different. Um, to

2:26:07me, it's kind of the same question. Are

2:26:08you saying you need to have a disclaimer

2:26:10to distinguish the two versus you have

2:26:13no disclaimer, but you say it's my

2:26:14personal opinion, but the logo might

2:26:15lead you to believe something else. Um,

2:26:18again, I guess what you're asking is

2:26:20first amendment right. Do I have the

2:26:21right to put whatever colors I want on

2:26:23there at least? Yes, first amendment

2:26:25constitutionally. You do. I think this

2:26:27is the question of amongst each others.

2:26:29What is your expectations of each other?

2:26:32>> And I go back to

2:26:34what do we stand for, right? You want to

2:26:36create a transparency or do you want to

2:26:41this to me would be one that I mean

2:26:45having official looping logos

2:26:50even if they're not 100% town or town

2:26:53color but like it looks really official

2:26:57I think to council member B's point

2:27:00there that's there right and that to me

2:27:03makes things.

2:27:06So, I I'm in in favor of not doing that.

2:27:12If we can prevent anybody from doing it,

2:27:15right, it's short of copyright law,

2:27:17close enough to an official logo, then

2:27:20you know, I can see that happening. But

2:27:23I don't think that that's really the

2:27:25case here.

2:27:27But

2:27:29again, to me, it's about what what kind

2:27:31of level

2:27:36Yeah. And I'm just put my table.

2:27:41I know this is a scenario.

2:27:44This is saying those colors

2:27:54of serving in this role as mayor the way

2:27:58I want to do it.

2:28:03Why aren't we sending a cease

2:28:05letter to these folks?

2:28:08It's pretty clear.

2:28:15>> It depends on what it is, but there's

2:28:17different rules for logo versus the

2:28:19seal.

2:28:20We've been through this seal when it

2:28:22campaigning and I'll have to get back

2:28:24into what can and can't be done with

2:28:25that. There's there's a different

2:28:27standard for those.

2:28:29And but we only have I mean we do have

2:28:31like pe we have certain copyright and

2:28:33trademark protection.

2:28:34>> Um I don't know that we have anything

2:28:36for the logo. We have it for the phrase.

2:28:38So there's some things that are not

2:28:39protected.

2:28:41>> But I do know that if we don't assert we

2:28:43can that's that's a wable claim. So you

2:28:47don't assert at least show efforts at

2:28:50every opportunity.

2:28:55if he had something. Yes.

2:29:01>> Okay.

2:29:06>> Okay. So, the town issues an official

2:29:08press release announcing a controversial

2:29:10decision approved by the majority of the

2:29:12council. A council member who opposed

2:29:14the decision believes the release does

2:29:16not adequately represent their concerns

2:29:17raised during the council deliberations.

2:29:19The council member independently issues

2:29:21a public statement criticizing the

2:29:23decision and expressing disagreement

2:29:24with the town's official messaging. The

2:29:27statement is distributed to local media

2:29:29without notifying fellow council members

2:29:31or or town administration.

2:29:34Should official town press releases

2:29:35acknowledging when a council decision

2:29:37was was not unanimous? So, should that

2:29:40be part of the the release?

2:29:44>> No, that's okay. Go ahead.

2:29:46I was going to say like if it's a town

2:29:48issue press release then I think yes

2:29:53[clears throat]

2:29:53>> I agree

2:29:54>> by a majority of the council. So if it's

2:29:5732 we we put that out there as long as

2:30:01we denote who the desenting votes are

2:30:06good with that.

2:30:07>> Is there an example of this?

2:30:09>> Uh yes.

2:30:16Uh

2:30:26>> yes.

2:30:27Um

2:30:29okay.

2:30:30Um

2:30:33going back to um the Facebook page, uh

2:30:36following a controversial council

2:30:38decision, several residents begin

2:30:40posting uh critical comments. One

2:30:42resident repeatedly questions the

2:30:43council member's judgment. Frustrated by

2:30:45ongoing comments, the council member

2:30:47deletes several posts and blocks the

2:30:48residents from further interaction. The

2:30:50resident subsequently contacts the town

2:30:53clerk alleging censorship and requesting

2:30:55copies of the deleted communications

2:31:02who's responsible.

2:31:05Some of this will also be if it's

2:31:06official business and you're removing

2:31:08you might violate their person

2:31:13>> if not business related is okay

2:31:17>> if yeah like some

2:31:22horrible

2:31:24>> different

2:31:27>> if it's town business

2:31:29>> okay

2:31:31>> and some and sometimes there are there

2:31:33are also So

2:31:36situations where you all will need to be

2:31:39mindful of if you post a video or you do

2:31:42a real and it deletes automatically

2:31:44after 30 days,

2:31:47you're still obligated to retain it.

2:31:52>> Just it but yes, that that clarification

2:31:54is important. Um but you're the point is

2:31:57is that if you create a video you can't

2:32:00depend on the platform to retain it per

2:32:03the state record retention schedule you

2:32:04have to be responsible for that

2:32:08>> in real you know or some video

2:32:12business related

2:32:14I think we should send it to you to keep

2:32:17a record [laughter]

2:32:19>> well that's what we had but I think a

2:32:21majority of y'all preferred to just have

2:32:22it request only so But yeah, you can

2:32:25send it to me and I can keep it. That's

2:32:26that's totally fine. Um,

2:32:31>> reasonable is my whole is the theme for

2:32:35me this whole thing. What's reasonable?

2:32:38What's in what's in good intent? And so

2:32:41I think it's I think it's to be

2:32:44encouraged that people offer

2:32:47that's reasonable.

2:32:49Um

2:32:51where I wonder it's first earlier when I

2:32:54was talking about anonymity. Um and then

2:32:58the second is uh you there are scenarios

2:33:01where you'll have that full troll right

2:33:05so post something today it's like hey

2:33:07I'm out I'm out at Pleasant Park doing

2:33:10this thing and they'll and then she

2:33:12posts something a week from now at

2:33:13somebody. And so my question is is

2:33:17criticism I think should be encouraged

2:33:19but within reason and the the the

2:33:25constant debacing of posts I don't know

2:33:29how to oversee that in a way that's

2:33:33eliminates distraction

2:33:34>> is that still so I guess who determines

2:33:37that it's not reasonable

2:33:40>> right I know um

2:33:43like that's people you know using their

2:33:45first correct to like you know if I make

2:33:48a post

2:33:49>> every post that makes somebody

2:33:53you know domestic terrorist and whatever

2:33:55call me

2:33:55>> but they can't do that from the um

2:33:58public

2:33:58>> they can okay well there's certain forms

2:34:02that we are okay with it's not um I'm

2:34:06pretty sure is not welcome

2:34:10but so here you go these are things I

2:34:12think are

2:34:14Go ahead.

2:34:15>> No, I was just going to say I I don't

2:34:16think that we can regulate their speech.

2:34:19I think we can. It's the behavior, not

2:34:21the speech.

2:34:22>> It's the behavior in the council

2:34:23meeting. And with Facebook post or

2:34:25social media, it's topic. I mean, if

2:34:27they're just talking about you

2:34:28personally, that's not you can delete

2:34:30it.

2:34:31>> It can be it can be a close call because

2:34:32they might be saying something like it's

2:34:34personal about you, but they're kind of

2:34:36referring to your official potential.

2:34:38That's where it gets difficult.

2:34:45was very tricky

2:34:48[laughter]

2:34:48these best practices. Okay. U so we

2:34:51talked about accountability um and

2:34:53policy compliance. So it sounds like

2:34:56there's support for the the resolution

2:34:59of censure andor the addressing of any

2:35:02sort of violations to be included in an

2:35:04ethics policy versus a this particular

2:35:07policy. Is that good?

2:35:10>> So what's the next step? Well, we've got

2:35:12one more policy to cover.

2:35:14>> Um, but do I

2:35:16>> on this policy? I think the previous one

2:35:19we were I think largely okay,

2:35:22>> right?

2:35:23>> Um, this one clearly more days and

2:35:26>> yes,

2:35:27>> different opinions.

2:35:29So, how do we track this out?

2:35:31>> The the plan now is that we'll try to

2:35:35incorporate the feedback that we've got

2:35:36to the extent that there was some

2:35:38unanimous feedback. um legal will review

2:35:42and then it's right now it's tenatively

2:35:44scheduled to go to the governance

2:35:45committee in December um at y'all's

2:35:47December meeting for a recommendation

2:35:48from that committee because this would

2:35:50fit as a policy under that committee. So

2:35:54then that committee would need to bring

2:35:56forward a recommendation and

2:35:59you know if you all would rather turn

2:36:00that committee meeting into a council

2:36:02work session then sure you know but we

2:36:04would need to notice it and all those

2:36:05things but right now the tenative

2:36:08timeline is to incorporate the feedback

2:36:09to the best that we can making sure that

2:36:12the first amendment rights are retained.

2:36:14we don't have any sort of problematic

2:36:16language having legal review it then

2:36:19coming back to the committee for a

2:36:20recommendation to the full council not

2:36:22back to a work session.

2:36:26Okay. The travel and expense policy.

2:36:29So should elected officials be issued a

2:36:33purchasing card? Um a majority of you

2:36:36said no or either a department card

2:36:38only. Um support of the 4 county

2:36:41boundary area. A majority of you

2:36:43supported the four county boundary area

2:36:45which is Wake, Chadam, Johnston, and

2:36:48Durham.

2:36:50Um, should there be spending caps for

2:36:52travel and events? A majority of you

2:36:54said yes. Stipen levels. A majority of

2:36:57you said to retain the current stipen

2:36:59levels. Um, what should an elected

2:37:01official stipen cover? Um, so a majority

2:37:04of you said they should cover individual

2:37:07meeting meals up to $50, local travel,

2:37:10community meeting supplies. Um, what

2:37:13activities should the town fund? Is your

2:37:15office hours, task force, meeting

2:37:16events, community meetings? Um,

2:37:21we'll jump into uh the council feedback.

2:37:25Um so one of the things is um Mayor Pro

2:37:28Tim um stepped out but uh wanting to

2:37:32expand the governance fiscal stewardship

2:37:34and internal support committee's role to

2:37:35include a duel um of serving as the an

2:37:39audit committee versus establishing a

2:37:41new committee. Um specifically

2:37:44referenced in the expense policy that

2:37:47what the town does is we use the US

2:37:49General Services Administration's PDM

2:37:52rate sheet. Um so I think it it says in

2:37:56the policy that you know based on the

2:37:58approved PDM this is that approved. So

2:38:01being making sure that that's clear in

2:38:02the policy um including a workflow

2:38:05chart. So the current policy draft

2:38:07speaks to um that as long as it's within

2:38:10the policy and it's within budget the

2:38:12clerk would review it and approve it

2:38:14based on the current policy and the

2:38:16current budget allocation. Finance would

2:38:20be responsible for issuing any sort of

2:38:21reimbursements and making sure fiscal

2:38:23compliance. If it's outside the policy,

2:38:26it would be at the council's discretion

2:38:29to determine. But within policy,

2:38:32um that's kind of the roles that are

2:38:34defined. Um when an elected official

2:38:37independently binds the town,

2:38:38circumventing the established policy

2:38:40without council approval. um we need to

2:38:44research this but the finance director

2:38:46shall have authority to garnish wages

2:38:48considering it a debt to the town. So

2:38:50that's um something that a few of you

2:38:52had asked about. Uh member expenses

2:38:55shall be published in the council agenda

2:38:57packet and on a web page monthly. Um the

2:39:00current policy speaks to that it'll be

2:39:03you know ratified if you will um by the

2:39:05council monthly. Um the additional is on

2:39:09a web page. Um and then clarifying um

2:39:13the official functions um having the

2:39:16same 150 per occurrence.

2:39:24Any thoughts on this or are are you all

2:39:27good with the the audit committee

2:39:29concept?

2:39:31Good with the current

2:39:34>> approval?

2:39:39>> [laughter]

2:39:41>> the role of the audit committee. Is that

2:39:44what the question was? So my

2:39:46understanding uh based on the feedback

2:39:48that I got um was

2:39:51that this committee would review um any

2:39:54sort of u

2:39:57claims if you will. So if if they said,

2:40:00"Oh, well, this was

2:40:02not not a of public public use or public

2:40:05purpose or um there was a a compliance

2:40:09issue," then the audit, this council

2:40:12committee would serve in that capacity

2:40:14to do the initial review. Unless unless

2:40:17um it relates to them, and I didn't put

2:40:19all that in this slide. Um unless it

2:40:22relates to them, then council can

2:40:23designate someone else to be a part of

2:40:24that committee for that discussion.

2:40:30I I like that. I I like the idea of it

2:40:33not being passed.

2:40:35>> Correct.

2:40:36>> That is more of a peer review.

2:40:38>> That's right.

2:40:42>> Gray made a face.

2:40:45>> [laughter]

2:40:53>> I mean

2:40:58address

2:41:01I'm trying to make sure that there's a

2:41:02conflict issue like

2:41:05the two members of that are governor

2:41:08subject

2:41:10>> correct

2:41:11>> I'm just trying to figure my Governments

2:41:14can always make the recommendation for

2:41:17it at all.

2:41:18>> That's right. That's right. And if it

2:41:20was related to one of those members, the

2:41:24this was Mayor Proim's and he's not

2:41:26here, but he did elaborate on the

2:41:29mechanics of this and I can share that,

2:41:31but um the concept around the the

2:41:35governance committee serving as kind of

2:41:36a peer review as as council Zigman

2:41:38mentioned. Um

2:41:41it seems like that concept is supported.

2:41:55>> Correct.

2:41:57>> Right. Yeah.

2:42:00>> Well, and I think the the governance

2:42:02committee already hears like when the

2:42:05finance audit has an update and they can

2:42:07certainly serve in that, but yes.

2:42:12Yes.

2:42:14>> Yeah.

2:42:16[laughter]

2:42:18>> Um is there is there more or there's one

2:42:20more I'd like to see clarifiers in the

2:42:24polic.

2:42:24>> Sure. Go ahead. Um

2:42:27it's still not 100% clear to me like you

2:42:30know the expense and uh sits right

2:42:35there's a lot of lot of examples that

2:42:37are mentioned I think we can clarify

2:42:40that language basically saying if it's

2:42:43not covered under travel and expense

2:42:45it's

2:42:47>> yeah instead of naming specific examples

2:42:51then inevitably the examples can come up

2:42:53that doesn't you know wasn't satisfied

2:42:56and believing that that grace right so I

2:43:00would like to see a stronger statement

2:43:02around

2:43:04is it your travel expense policy

2:43:08and if it doesn't fit any of this then

2:43:10it becomes a expense that you car you

2:43:13know personally you know of course we

2:43:15will compensate you the monthly stipens

2:43:17that we get

2:43:18>> now and we can have a debate on whether

2:43:20the at that point is still sufficient or

2:43:22not right

2:43:23>> right that's me a different

2:43:25conversation.

2:43:27Um, but that's I think removes the

2:43:30>> doubt. And I think what um what you're

2:43:33getting at is where in this policy draft

2:43:38um

2:43:40where if there's it clarifies where if a

2:43:42situation is not addressed, the

2:43:45employees policy related to this shall

2:43:47govern. And so something similar to

2:43:48where this is not intended to be an

2:43:50exhaustive list of what this covers. If

2:43:53it's not outlined anywhere else in this

2:43:55policy, the stipen shall be the the

2:43:57default. Is that is that getting to what

2:43:59you're saying? Okay.

2:44:00>> Okay. Um All right. So, just wanted to

2:44:04clarify because this was a big thing

2:44:06that came up during some of the survey

2:44:08is official function, official town

2:44:11business, memberhosted versus town

2:44:13sponsored. um reasonable expense needs a

2:44:17little tweaking of the language. I've

2:44:19heard from several of you about that. Um

2:44:22but just wanted to level set on the

2:44:24definitions

2:44:25uh before we head into the a few

2:44:28scenarios and then we'll

2:44:31um so a council member meets

2:44:33individually with two residents for

2:44:34lunch to discuss a neighborhood concern.

2:44:36The meal cost $55. Later that month, the

2:44:39same council member participates in a

2:44:40scheduled working lunch with elected

2:44:43officials from a neighboring

2:44:44municipality to discuss a joint

2:44:46governmental initiative.

2:44:48Should the individual's constituent

2:44:50lunch remain entirely within the council

2:44:52member stip stipen regardless of cost?

2:44:56Um should the intergovernmental working

2:44:58lunch be eligible for separate funding?

2:45:00So part of that $1,500 that you all

2:45:03have. Um are the proposed definitions of

2:45:06official function and individual

2:45:07constitual meeting sufficiently clear?

2:45:13>> My answer to question one yes

2:45:18to

2:45:24choose to make this a meal that I think

2:45:29should cover that.

2:45:32>> Everybody good with that? Okay.

2:45:34>> All right. And then the

2:45:35intergovernmental working lunch,

2:45:39>> that's something that challenge

2:45:40schedule. So like how we meet with

2:45:44Carrie and whatnot.

2:45:45>> Yeah. So if if you say, "Oh, you know, I

2:45:48want to hear more about Gary's water

2:45:52plan or what whatnot." So two elected

2:45:54officials come from there, two elected

2:45:55officials come from Apex. that would

2:45:57come out of

2:45:59the council's meeting and event

2:46:02provision and supplies, not the

2:46:04individual members $1,500 allocation. It

2:46:07would be a town thing because it's a

2:46:09documented governmental purpose. It's a

2:46:10it's multiple members. Y'all good with

2:46:13that? Okay.

2:46:15>> Yes.

2:46:15>> Um and then official function. I think

2:46:19that's pretty clear. Um scenario two, uh

2:46:22the mayor wishes to host an evening

2:46:24community meeting at a town facility.

2:46:26The meeting is open to all residents and

2:46:28focused on a town related concern.

2:46:31Uh the member requests assistance with

2:46:33scheduling staff support advertising and

2:46:35approximately $225 in refreshments and

2:46:38materials.

2:46:40Current policy is or the proposed is the

2:46:43proposed 150 per event limit and the

2:46:46$1,500 annual reasonable? What level of

2:46:49staff support should accompany identif

2:46:51uh independently hosted council member

2:46:53events? Uh, so we can use Council Member

2:46:56Gray's um ALPR event or Council Member

2:46:59Mappy's office hours. Um, at what point

2:47:02should council approval be required

2:47:04rather than allowing administrative

2:47:05coordination?

2:47:10>> I would say

2:47:13I like the $1,500 annual member limit.

2:47:16Um, the 150 per event limit feels

2:47:20restricted

2:47:21like maybe I mean $150 worth of stuff

2:47:25just today. Just all we got a couple

2:47:27bottle of water, some cans of pop, you

2:47:29know. So, I'm just that's the one thing

2:47:31I would reflect on. I know the overall

2:47:33annual cap um 150 per event limit feels

2:47:39>> so if a member so

2:47:42>> maybe it's 200

2:47:47>> maybe that's not reasonable.

2:47:51Right.

2:47:55>> You want to have two community events.

2:47:56Are you okay with

2:47:58>> if you okay with a member saying, "Hey,

2:48:00I want

2:48:00>> you have one $1,500 cash."

2:48:07>> It was trying to put

2:48:11restrictions in place consistent with

2:48:13other jurisdictions policies. They do

2:48:15have a per per event cap.

2:48:20So, we don't have to have that here.

2:48:22>> Um, if that feels too restrictive,

2:48:27>> I kind of like

2:48:29it's it's forces have to be approved. I

2:48:32think that's a good thing. uh if

2:48:34somebody is going to have event after

2:48:36events uh after event

2:48:44[laughter]

2:48:54I think that that's that's ridiculous.

2:48:57Uh I also don't see the need for

2:48:59offering refreshments in every single

2:49:01gathering that's that we have. Right.

2:49:03And so, you know, at the end of the day,

2:49:06like we are entrusted to be stewards of

2:49:08the taxpayer dollars, right? And I I

2:49:11think having some targets for ourselves

2:49:13that that you know force up to us to

2:49:17think about this is is entirely

2:49:19reasonable. If you know this turns out

2:49:21to be a bigger event and decide that we

2:49:24want to spend money on it, we can always

2:49:25bring back the council and say, "Hey,

2:49:27like we want to do this thing. You know,

2:49:29it's got to be a little bit more than

2:49:31that.

2:49:33decide where the money's going to come.

2:49:36>> I agree with that.

2:49:37>> Makes sense.

2:49:39>> So, not the per. So, eliminate the per

2:49:42I'm hearing you say yes, but then I'm

2:49:44hearing So,

2:49:45>> no, I'm not I'm saying keep the

2:49:48>> Right. Right. But you're saying

2:49:51>> I

2:49:54>> just because I feel like

2:49:58>> Yeah. I okay I think we can make it

2:50:02maybe like 300 but we don't have to each

2:50:06time reach 300 for example maybe

2:50:10>> yeah maybe I don't know you know um only

2:50:13spend you know total maybe only 300 and

2:50:16hosted 10 events right he can do that

2:50:20[laughter] because it's so responsible

2:50:22and I

2:50:23>> bring your own

2:50:25>> yes so I think maybe we can increase so

2:50:28we don't have to you know because for

2:50:30example um you know Arnold and Terry you

2:50:34know for you that 20 55 you know blind

2:50:38just example like we have we got like 12

2:50:41you know a big crowd attendees so 150 is

2:50:45not enough at all so you

2:50:48don't feel required people when they

2:50:50show up for for an event like that's

2:50:52like if people want to come join us talk

2:50:55about some business I don't feel like

2:50:57we're obligated to, you know, put out

2:51:00the spread.

2:51:01>> So, and keeping keep in mind that to C

2:51:04council member Moo's point, if if it's a

2:51:07council event, like if we have community

2:51:10office hours where all of you are

2:51:12present, that's not going to go towards

2:51:15members allowances. That's already

2:51:17budgeted, you know. So I don't want to

2:51:20confuse those type of activities when

2:51:23you all are acting as a body versus

2:51:26members having individual meetings.

2:51:30>> My opinion is when you you know um be

2:51:34considerate for example people always

2:51:36come you know like in the union because

2:51:39everybody has to work right have

2:51:41children to take care of. If you have

2:51:44some refreshment, you have some you know

2:51:47art tool when people just you know work

2:51:49come here they feel appreciate and they

2:51:52want to come. If you have nothing they

2:51:54don't want to come. If you need lots of

2:51:56input right opinions you cannot gather

2:51:59that many you know people

2:52:02>> working down.

2:52:03>> Yes.

2:52:08[laughter]

2:52:09>> Okay.

2:52:10The last thing I say is just if you've

2:52:12got 40 people that's five

2:52:19>> I I just think that I

2:52:22>> So it sounds like the 150 is is you're

2:52:25good with it. Some of you want to raise

2:52:27it maybe not 300. Is 200 a good

2:52:30>> me in the middle?

2:52:32>> We all agreed on 1500.

2:52:36>> Yeah. Yeah.

2:52:38Quick question on supplies materials

2:52:42>> and then

2:52:44she has the resilience

2:52:47task force. So frequency of those

2:52:49meetings later

2:52:55I have task force

2:52:58supplies for those. So I think that

2:53:02would be under your your member limit.

2:53:05You can use it for those expenses. Now

2:53:08once you reach that limit then you have

2:53:10to go back to your colleagues to say hey

2:53:12I want I need more money. Unless you all

2:53:15want to say

2:53:17unless you want to say if it's a town

2:53:19established task force it's funded at

2:53:22this level because this doesn't speak to

2:53:24that in this policy and maybe it should

2:53:26but it doesn't currently address it in

2:53:28this policy.

2:53:32Correct.

2:53:32>> MIP

2:53:34should be just basically budget

2:53:40the oneoff sort of

2:53:46it might be

2:53:48>> right.

2:53:50So but that would that would be a

2:53:52separate allocation for that particular

2:53:54initiative.

2:53:55>> Okay. So if it's the the peak resilience

2:53:57task force, whatever amount that you all

2:53:59want to just distinguish for that it

2:54:02Right. Exactly. Um okay.

2:54:06All right. Uh during So this gets to

2:54:12>> So getting to um campaign expenses. So

2:54:15during an Apex municipal election. So

2:54:18that's important here. A currently

2:54:20seated elected official requests town

2:54:22support and funding for a publicly

2:54:24advertised community town hall in

2:54:26August. The official also intends to

2:54:29promote the event through their official

2:54:31capacity social media account.

2:54:38How do y'all want to distinguish?

2:54:40>> I thought we had a July.

2:54:44Is that correct?

2:54:45>> That is that is that is correct. Are

2:54:48y'all are y'all good with that?

2:54:50>> Y

2:54:52stress testing that I think it was

2:54:54something about

2:54:57>> correct?

2:55:00>> Yes.

2:55:02>> Yep. Okay. So, the standard would be the

2:55:05July one through the December one

2:55:08>> on whenever Apex elections. You all have

2:55:11expressed going to even year and so I

2:55:12didn't want to say even our odds. Just

2:55:14whenever there's an apex election, if

2:55:16you're on the ballot, that period would

2:55:18stand that you wouldn't request any

2:55:20support. You wouldn't get any financial

2:55:22>> support.

2:55:25>> Yes.

2:55:27Okay. U a council member has $108

2:55:29remaining of their $1,500 annual

2:55:31allowance and has requested another

2:55:33event. Um the council member has

2:55:36informed the town clerk that another

2:55:37council member has authorized a portion

2:55:39of their allocation to support this

2:55:40initiative. So couple prong. Should

2:55:43council members be permitted to

2:55:44voluntarily transfer or share unused

2:55:46portions of their annual allocations?

2:55:48So, that's one. Is written confirmation

2:55:51from both council member sufficient or

2:55:53do you all want to be notified? Um,

2:55:57yeah. And the other ones get into

2:55:59notification.

2:56:02>> I think it's good. Okay.

2:56:04>> So, if council member move has her task

2:56:06force,

2:56:10[laughter]

2:56:11>> he's speaking for two.

2:56:13>> Yeah, I can transfer my phone to you. I

2:56:16don't mind. [laughter]

2:56:17>> I think yours will be gone.

2:56:22>> Yours is gone.

2:56:23>> No, there's only two workshops or other

2:56:26meetings, you know, like virtually or

2:56:29sometimes very little. We spend very

2:56:32little. Okay. Trust me, I spend my own

2:56:34my own campaign fund for for Facebook

2:56:37for social media thing. My own money.

2:56:39Okay.

2:56:40>> So, in this example, if council member

2:56:42Moo, we'll use her as an example,

2:56:44there's $108 remaining. If council

2:56:47member Ree says, Council Member Moo, you

2:56:49can have 200 of my $1,500 allocation.

2:56:52And he sends that in writing. Y'all are

2:56:54good without being notified.

2:56:57>> Okay, perfect.

2:57:00It is minor, but but again, I don't want

2:57:02I want to make sure that we're clear

2:57:03because I don't want to be.

2:57:07>> Yeah. [laughter]

2:57:09>> Um Okay. So, full council.

2:57:13[laughter]

2:57:15Okay. Uh and then I think this is the

2:57:17last scenario. A council member

2:57:18organizes an event for their task force

2:57:20in which is to purchase custom t-shirts

2:57:23for the participants. Believing

2:57:25sufficient funds is available, the

2:57:26council member independently places the

2:57:28order and instructs the vendor to

2:57:29invoice the town clerk. Upon receiving

2:57:31the invoice, the town clerk determines

2:57:33that the available funding is

2:57:35insufficient to cover the purchase. The

2:57:37t-shirts have already been produced and

2:57:39delivered.

2:57:40Should elected officials be permitted to

2:57:42independently commit town funds or make

2:57:44purchases without prior administrative

2:57:46approval? The policy draft says no. So,

2:57:50>> no,

2:57:50>> for what that's worth. Um, who should be

2:57:52responsible for expenses incurred

2:57:54without authorization?

2:57:57Should unauthorized expenditures be

2:57:59reported to the full town council?

2:58:02Um, what corrective actions should apply

2:58:04when an elected official commits town

2:58:06resources?

2:58:09>> I don't think any of us has the

2:58:11authority to independently commit towns.

2:58:14>> Yeah.

2:58:15>> So, if we want to order something, we

2:58:16need to order.

2:58:19>> Yes. Yes.

2:58:20>> I agree. Okay. Um,

2:58:23so what happens when that doesn't happen

2:58:27>> and it becomes an individual liability

2:58:29can be paid out of.

2:58:32>> Yeah. Or personal like I always

2:58:35>> you know pay my person you know

2:58:36personally pay personal for for the you

2:58:39know social media advertising of the

2:58:42test force that's my personal thing. I

2:58:44never use the one cent of the compound.

2:58:46Okay. But you know you get you get paid

2:58:48to you say okay you know what I covered

2:58:51this out of my own

2:58:58help to pay for these these things which

2:59:00I think is just fair.

2:59:01>> Yeah.

2:59:04>> Go ahead.

2:59:05>> No I again like I think you know my

2:59:08baseline is that you know we should not

2:59:10be ordering or making any purchases.

2:59:13If I personally walked into a store and

2:59:15said, "Hey, like go go make me bunch of

2:59:17t-shirts."

2:59:18>> So, one of the one of the council's

2:59:20feedback was that it be treated as a a

2:59:22debt to the town because you committed

2:59:24the town to money that didn't exist

2:59:29with everybody of that.

2:59:32>> And you know, the settlement's going to

2:59:34be okay. Yep. My bad got it right. I'll

2:59:37take the time for you to make them,

2:59:40>> right? And the compliment

2:59:43question said I'm not going to you know

2:59:45refuse and go to you know wage garden

2:59:48thing if it's

2:59:51actually

2:59:53>> you had a slide earlier

2:59:56that apply to

2:59:58>> in this situation

2:59:59>> is that physical

3:00:00>> so just in just in general if if the

3:00:03council member secures or or any any

3:00:06apex elected official

3:00:10purchases something there's it's either

3:00:12outside the policy or it's there's not

3:00:15sufficient funds to cover it, etc. You

3:00:19then committed the town in your official

3:00:21capacity.

3:00:24Should the policy speak to the fact that

3:00:26the the town manager and the town

3:00:27finance director is authorized to

3:00:29garnish your wages for that?

3:00:34>> So, do you have a point I want to make

3:00:36here? Individual order, right? We have

3:00:39purchasing policies in place.

3:00:42That's right.

3:00:42>> This scenario completely

3:00:46right.

3:00:46>> So, you know,

3:00:49you know,

3:00:52but having it in place is important

3:00:55like we need to have some some controls

3:00:57to to capture these things and react to

3:01:00them instead of having space.

3:01:03>> And to be clear, I mean, the garnishing

3:01:05of wages is an extreme approach, right?

3:01:07I mean so if there's a a a purchase that

3:01:10isn't

3:01:12for the policy or there's not sufficient

3:01:14funds then obviously there would be

3:01:16communication to that member about hey

3:01:18there's not sufficient funds how do we

3:01:21proceed etc. So the garnishing of wages

3:01:23would be kind of a last resort.

3:01:26Yeah,

3:01:28>> but all of you

3:01:35>> that's that's

3:01:37I I don't think that

3:01:41in this scenario I'm not sure

3:01:45is in a position to ratify.

3:01:49>> The council would have to

3:01:51>> That's right. So, should unauthorized

3:01:53expenditures be reported to the full

3:01:55town council?

3:01:57>> What I'm hearing is yes.

3:02:07>> Hey,

3:02:09ask me for this money. [clears throat]

3:02:13>> That becomes a question now.

3:02:18The town is now taking that debt.

3:02:23And if the town takes a wonderish

3:02:37I think and we had a little bit of

3:02:38conversation about this, right? kind of

3:02:45addressing the

3:02:47the potential of people know who we are

3:02:51in town, right?

3:02:53and

3:02:55a

3:02:56vendor

3:02:59if you walk into publication saying like

3:03:02I want to buy a bunch of plastation

3:03:11right and so somebody

3:03:13that's in good faith

3:03:16what happens I agree with you like this

3:03:18scenario should not happen because we

3:03:20should not purchase outside

3:03:23purchasing policy and all that to begin

3:03:26with, but if any like that come up I I

3:03:30hear you, right? I don't want to go

3:03:33purchases necessarily. It's dealing with

3:03:36a bit of an

3:03:42overlying

3:03:44from a legal standpoint. If the debt has

3:03:47been satisfied

3:03:50said that this was our obligation,

3:03:52where is our authority to take?

3:03:55>> Yeah, I think you're going to have two

3:03:57scenarios. So, first would be whether or

3:03:58not the town could even pay it. It's not

3:04:00authorized unless it comes to council

3:04:01and be ratified and then the town pay

3:04:03it, but then how town recover the money

3:04:06and the whether it's a debt that could

3:04:07be garnished is defined by statute. I

3:04:09don't know how they define that, but

3:04:10it's an actual setup process. So, yeah,

3:04:12I think that's going to be a problem.

3:04:13Yeah, I'm like I'm trying to figure out

3:04:16how

3:04:20basketball

3:04:23I like where it's going. I like I like

3:04:24the intent of the the town shouldn't be

3:04:27out of by somebody. You don't want to

3:04:29create

3:04:47where

3:04:49it sounds.

3:04:52How do we call it a debt?

3:04:55>> And maybe the answer is the town can't

3:04:57ratify that if that happens.

3:05:00I'm thinking that's kind of where that

3:05:07>> could just be mistake

3:05:09>> and then counselor say yeah that was a

3:05:10mistake and

3:05:17>> um so

3:05:20clear then changes because

3:05:24>> yeah what happened just

3:05:26>> so basically because like

3:05:28the time shall not

3:05:30Unless you know

3:05:32>> Yeah.

3:05:33>> full council review.

3:05:35>> Well, and that's what I mean. Should

3:05:37unauthorized expenditures be reported to

3:05:39the full council? That's that's the

3:05:41that's then going to the full council

3:05:43and then you all saying yes, we're going

3:05:45to do a budget amendment or no, we're

3:05:46we're not going to pay this,

3:05:51>> right? I mean, so that's the

3:05:52>> So then basically what we're taking off

3:05:55the table is that the town will put the

3:05:57bill and then bring it to council. No.

3:06:00>> Yes. Correct. Correct. So unauthorized

3:06:03expenditures would be reported to the

3:06:05council before any payment is made or

3:06:08wages are garnished or whatever. Um

3:06:17>> correct

3:06:22>> purchase orders only had issues with

3:06:27>> Yeah. Yeah, that's why it

3:06:34>> so the last the last couple survey um

3:06:37which is somewhat addressed in the

3:06:40current policies but just wanted to to

3:06:42get some direction on. So what level of

3:06:44staff support should be provided? Y'all

3:06:46were split on whether you wanted just

3:06:49logistics or whether you wanted active

3:06:50coordination. Um and again some of that

3:06:54also leads into number two is whether

3:06:56you want professional staff. um to

3:06:58attend. So if you're having a ALPR

3:07:01office hour, do you want

3:07:05that's a bad example, but if you if you

3:07:06have a transportation

3:07:08office hour, do you is the expectation

3:07:11that professional staff would be

3:07:12present?

3:07:20And I think I was the defense down here

3:07:23>> and I may have been the logistics

3:07:26portfol.

3:07:36I feel like that that could be right

3:07:39professionals. Sure. I want to have

3:07:40something on a Saturday evening like

3:07:44you've already spent all week here like

3:07:46do you need I'm gonna back out and do

3:07:50special exceptions like that's

3:07:51>> right.

3:07:53>> Yeah. Okay. Prior facility access for

3:07:56events um in an official capacity. So

3:08:01not prior but priority facility access

3:08:03to events. A majority of you said yes.

3:08:06Um, and should there be limits on town

3:08:08halls, office hours, or events? That was

3:08:10split. So, we didn't that's not

3:08:12currently addressed because y'all are

3:08:14not unanimous on that.

3:08:19>> So, if if you come up and say that you

3:08:23want to

3:08:25reserve the senior center,

3:08:28>> then and it's and it's not available.

3:08:32Priority access means you as a council

3:08:34member would get the space.

3:08:37>> Correct. So

3:08:42>> correct.

3:08:44So you as elected officials can have

3:08:48access to the space, but you necessarily

3:08:49won't have priority access if the space

3:08:51has already been reserved.

3:08:54Okay.

3:08:56What was that?

3:08:57>> I don't know how to respond to that.

3:09:01Okay. Um, and should the town promote

3:09:03elected official events? This is

3:09:05something that we've gotten some push

3:09:08back on and so we we put it in the

3:09:10survey and so a majority of you all said

3:09:13yes um that the town can assist with

3:09:17promoting elected official events.

3:09:22>> So,

3:09:24>> I'm sorry.

3:09:26>> Yes. Yes. But but the question then

3:09:29becomes

3:09:31how how is promotion? So right now if

3:09:34it's on the town calendar that's one

3:09:35thing. If we get another request to say

3:09:37hey I want you to advertise that create

3:09:39a calendar event on Facebook create a a

3:09:42flyer for the event. That's where it

3:09:45gets where we've not really done that.

3:09:50So it's promoting just putting it on the

3:09:52town calendar.

3:09:55That's sufficient

3:09:58because we have gotten asked before

3:10:00where a member has had a particular

3:10:02event,

3:10:03you know, well, why can't the town

3:10:05advertise it? It's open to the public.

3:10:07It's my, you know, I'm an elected

3:10:09official. It's my event.

3:10:15>> So, if it is official, you all are okay

3:10:18with that.

3:10:24hanging out.

3:10:31Not necessarily,

3:10:34>> but if you wanted to have an official

3:10:36office hours at Common Grounds, would

3:10:38you and we put it on the town calendar.

3:10:40Is that sufficient or do you want the

3:10:42town to also

3:10:45you want the town to

3:10:47>> official elected official events?

3:10:50[laughter]

3:10:52>> So So it sounds like what I'm hearing is

3:10:54the calendar is a yes.

3:10:57Social whether we use social media to

3:10:59promote is still unclear

3:11:03or maybe situational dependent.

3:11:06>> Yeah,

3:11:08I don't like you.

3:11:10Correct.

3:11:12>> Correct.

3:11:14That's where we need some direction.

3:11:16[laughter]

3:11:18>> Yeah.

3:11:19>> So, you know,

3:11:22>> right? That's what we do.

3:11:28>> That's right. [clears throat]

3:11:34>> Correct. Well, and that's been Stacy's

3:11:35position is that we would say no, but if

3:11:38I would, we've gotten some questions

3:11:40about, well, why can't you? It's it's

3:11:43the town. I'm acting in an official town

3:11:46capacity having an event. Why can't it

3:11:48be promoted on the town's page?

3:11:52We need

3:12:02>> I don't even know what

3:12:06you know just very explicit curious

3:12:11everything else. Well,

3:12:15any event that's open to all members of

3:12:17the public

3:12:20is what you all said.

3:12:21>> Yeah. You know,

3:12:24this point I can go hang out and say,

3:12:27"Hey, you know, just come meet

3:12:32your problems."

3:12:34I don't really think that that's an

3:12:36official

3:12:38you guys, right?

3:12:39>> But it could be, right? If you said,

3:12:42"Well, I'm going to schedule office

3:12:44hours. I'm going to be at Common Grounds

3:12:47and I want to promote that I'm going to

3:12:48be here on this day on this time for

3:12:51this period of time. Could that be is my

3:12:54question.

3:13:04>> Right.

3:13:08Maybe that's the only thing like

3:13:10official office hours but no

3:13:11>> just office hours not.

3:13:16>> Okay.

3:13:18>> All righty. Um council approval required

3:13:22for um the office hours and promoting of

3:13:25events. Yes. So that that's written in

3:13:28the

3:13:29the policy.

3:13:32Should financial support be provided for

3:13:34the events? The majority of you all said

3:13:36yes.

3:13:39Next steps, we talked about this. Um

3:13:42so we're going to try to incorporate

3:13:44some revisions. Um submit some drafts

3:13:47out and then have this come to the

3:13:49governance committee

3:13:53December meeting.

3:13:54>> Realistically, I don't think

3:13:58December 3rd are just going to be the

3:14:00next review. There's going to be a final

3:14:01draft for that

3:14:03>> unless the committee says I mean the

3:14:05committee can make a recommendation at

3:14:06that point.

3:14:07>> I mean committee can make a

3:14:08recommendation to

3:14:10>> the council

3:14:12>> which would be at this

3:14:14>> right now.

3:14:19>> I just I I think it's important that

3:14:23this we try to meet this timeline

3:14:25because I think that it's been a concern

3:14:27is that we keep this moving. You know,

3:14:29we have we have this continued

3:14:32>> what was that?

3:14:37>> I said Brian and Alan said

3:14:41>> yeah,

3:14:42>> I think you missed me.

3:14:47>> I just know that these are policies that

3:14:49you all have wanted and so we're trying

3:14:51to be responsive.

3:14:52>> I appreciate that.

3:15:01Thank you. Right. So, this is your first

3:15:04extended work session

3:15:06>> that you all have asked for. [laughter]

3:15:20>> [laughter]

3:15:27[laughter]

3:15:41[laughter]

3:15:42>> It is less than 150. It's just frame.

3:15:46All

3:15:47>> [laughter]

3:15:48>> right, guys.

3:15:58>> Thank you.

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