2026-09-22 - Town Council Meeting

13:26[laughter]

13:28Good evening everyone. We'll go ahead

13:30and call the meeting to order for

13:31Tuesday, September 22nd, 2026. Welcome

13:35to all of you. Thanks to those joining

13:37uh by YouTube and familiar faces in the

13:40house. Some of y'all are making a habit

13:41out of coming to town council meetings.

13:43That's a good thing. Keep coming. Um

13:45let's go to our pledge. It will be led

13:48tonight by Councilman Ree. So, if you

13:50would please stand and join us for the

13:51pledge of allegiance.

13:54>> [clears throat]

13:55>> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the

13:58United States of America and to the

14:00republic for which it stands. One nation

14:03under God, indivisible, with liberty and

14:06justice for all.

14:08>> Thank you, Councilman.

14:09>> Yes, sir. [snorts]

14:11>> Diversity statement. The town of Apex

14:12values and celebrates diversity and

14:14inclusion. We see diversity as a

14:16strength that binds our community

14:17together. Inviting members from

14:20different faith communities to deliver

14:21the invocation at the beginning of our

14:23council meetings supports this unity.

14:25Recognizing that not everyone practices

14:27the same traditions, we welcome you to

14:29have a private moment of silence. And

14:31tonight, that's what we will do. Take a

14:35pause for peace. So, please join us in a

14:38moment of silence. Thank you.

14:53Thank you so much. We'll move now to

14:55announcements and petitions by governing

14:57body. We'll start with Mayor Pro.

15:00>> Uh thank you, mayor. I wanted to take my

15:02time tonight to address um the decision

15:05by the county commissioners last night

15:07uh to approve the Atrium Wake Med merger

15:10um and kind of express my

15:11disappointment. And I feel like this is

15:13something that maybe uh you know

15:16potentially have consequences in Apex.

15:17Um the biggest issue that I have is

15:19ultimately the discussion that I heard

15:21wasn't centered around healthcare costs

15:23and how it affects employees and uh and

15:27other members of not only gay tax but

15:28around the state.

15:30>> Um the stated purpose of this merger

15:32that I saw was to uh the main point was

15:36to combine the bargaining power and

15:38raise the reimbursement rates uh for

15:40insurers. And it occurred to me that um

15:43this this means us like we're an insure

15:45a ton of Apex along with the state and

15:48these are um you know they're your

15:51property tax dollars. They're your

15:53income tax dollars and uh to have the

15:56merger be sort of focused on the

15:57bargaining power I felt um wasn't wasn't

16:00that helpful to us. Additionally, you

16:03know, Wake Met is a major employer in

16:04Apex and um mergers aren't known for

16:08increasing employment. I don't know

16:09what's going to happen here, but the

16:11fact that, you know, one of our major

16:12employers having a merger, I don't know

16:14what's going to happen, but I I have

16:15concerns. So, what I heard last night,

16:18um, you know, I have to acknowledge

16:20there's there's benefits. You know, I I

16:22heard they they talked about $2 billion

16:24of, uh, of investment coming, uh, to

16:27Wake County, and that's great. I didn't

16:29hear any of that in Apex, though. You

16:30know, other areas. Good for them. Um

16:32they talked about an agreement to cap

16:35the raises of insurance premiums uh to

16:391.5x of the Medicaid reimbursement rate

16:42uh which is good but 1.5x

16:45150% is still a lot and uh the issue

16:48with Medicaid reimbursements is it's

16:50actually been pretty low for years and

16:51there's sort of a bipartisan agreement

16:52that we need to pay more for Medicaid to

16:54help out doctors. So that could again

16:56lead to more increases.

16:59So, uh, [sighs and gasps] that's that's

17:00kind of my, um, my thoughts on it. I was

17:03disappointed to see the approval that I

17:05wasn't focused on the cost. I think

17:06it's, uh, bad for Wake and especially

17:09bad for, uh, for Apex. And, um, you

17:13know, in in about 30 years, we went from

17:15having a public hospital system to a

17:18nonprofit hospital system and now a

17:20hospital system that'll be run by one of

17:22the largest uh, private consortiums in

17:24the in the country. and um you know with

17:27the profit motive it might not be great.

17:29So I recognize the decision makers have

17:31a lot of information. I don't have um

17:33but I'm I'm concerned about the impacts

17:35to Apex. Just wanted to say that.

17:36>> Is that completely final? Is that over

17:38for the most part?

17:40>> I don't know if they haven't closed on

17:42it, but this was the major I think uh

17:44issue in front of them. So So there's

17:47that. Thanks. Let me get that off my

17:49chest. The other thing I wanted to

17:50mention uh the EAB, we had a meeting

17:51last Thursday. Mayor, you asked uh last

17:53time about appointments. We did make

17:56some subcommittee appointments there and

17:58um

18:00you know the the data center

18:01subcommittee is now fully staffed and

18:04continues its work. And uh I did want to

18:06mention uh there was a decision by a

18:08judge in Chadam County which invalidated

18:11uh their moratorum as it applies to a

18:14certain applicant they had and I view

18:16this kind of as a validation of the

18:18measured comm approach that Apex took in

18:21dealing uh with our application and uh

18:24you know we didn't rush from moratorum

18:25or any other decisions. We considered

18:27the data, went through the process, and

18:29got an outcome, and that process is

18:30still ongoing, and I'm proud of the work

18:32that we did, and I think uh the results

18:34speak for itself. Thank you, mayor.

18:36>> All right. Thank you so much, Council

18:37Member Gray.

18:38>> And uh I'll echo those comments with

18:40regard to the data center decision. I

18:42think um if anything it's a indication

18:45of how us taking our time looking at the

18:47data and continuing to gather the data u

18:50puts us into a a very uh fortunate

18:54position legally when it comes to our

18:56our efforts to make sure that we're

18:58looking at data centers and trying to

18:59figure out the right solution for those

19:01things. Um I do want to take just one

19:03moment to say I want to uh just draw

19:06attention to one of our uh proclamations

19:09that we're doing today. It's one of the

19:10first times that we've done this um PM

19:13MIA recognition day. Um it's a it's an

19:17important thing to remember. Um you

19:19know, back in the early 90s when I was a

19:21cadet at Howard University, I had a

19:23bracelet. Um Colonel uh Dayton Raglin

19:28was on that bracelet. It was a little

19:31steel bracelet. Wore it every day. Um,

19:34Colonel Dayton was an F4 fighter pilot

19:37who was a graduate of Howard University

19:40who was flying over North Vietnam in

19:421968.

19:44He enga he uh encountered some

19:46anti-aircraft fire. He and his uh radar

19:49intercept officer, the guy in the back

19:52seat. Uh they ultimately um were seen by

19:55their wingman as going down.

19:58That aircraft was never recovered. There

20:01was signs of an explosion, but there

20:02were no signs of whether or not a a

20:04parachute came out. That was a person

20:07who gave their life or at best was

20:12missing at the time. The purpose of PMIA

20:16day is not to recognize those who have

20:19given the ultimate sacrifice. I think

20:21the real purpose of P and MIA day is to

20:25remember that there is a family that

20:27never got closure. There was a nation

20:29that never got a chance to see the

20:31coffin.

20:33With the great advances in medical

20:35technology, a number of those who had

20:38been previously listed as MIA or um and

20:41and unaccounted for, we've been able to

20:44identify a great number of those folks.

20:46We were able to provide closure for

20:48those families. But there are a number

20:50of families such as Colonel Raglin's

20:53family who still is looking for that

20:56closure. I want to say thank you to the

20:58town. I want to say thank you to my

21:00colleagues for this effort and

21:02remembering those who are still looking

21:04for that last chapter to be closed. It

21:08means a lot when I tell people that I'm

21:12at the most military friendly and

21:14supportive community in the entire world

21:17when we're doing things to remember

21:18those who have made that sacrifice and

21:21we're remembering those families that

21:23continue to make that sacrifice every

21:24day. That's all I got. Okay. Thank you,

21:27council. Important words there. Council

21:29member Zaggerman.

21:30>> No major updates for me tonight. Uh, Mr.

21:33Mayor, I do want to acknowledge all the

21:35electric and fire staff that we have in

21:37the house tonight for the proclamations.

21:39I want to thank everybody for spending

21:41some extra time with us here tonight to

21:44to be here. So, thank you very much for

21:45everything you guys do on a daily basis,

21:48but also for being here tonight with us.

21:50>> Thank you, Councilman. Council member

21:51Moody.

21:53Yeah, I have something important.

21:57October is

21:59mental health awareness month. Our peak

22:03resilience and well-being task force is

22:06hosting another

22:09really important workshop for our

22:12community. We have presenters for youth

22:17youth suicide prevention and adult

22:19suicide prevention. So everyone is

22:23welcome. If you are struggling we have

22:28providers on site. You can go there seek

22:30for you know uh advice or you know uh

22:34ask you know what kind of resources you

22:37can use. If you um just want to learn

22:42the knowledge of recognizing early

22:46warning signs

22:48to help friends, family or anyone you

22:52think might be, you know, in need,

22:54please come. If you are parent and you

22:57want to learn more about your teenagers

22:59and understand their behavioral more,

23:02please come. If you are a student,

23:06if you want to understand more um and

23:09the you know other pressure and

23:12everything your parents has been

23:15carrying through their lives, please

23:18come. So it's really a great place and

23:22opportunity for everyone to do mutual

23:25understanding. So, please go to our

23:28website, find the registration link and

23:31sign up. The first 50 signups will get

23:35free gift. Okay. [laughter] Thank you.

23:39It's on October 17th at 2 p.m.

23:43Saturday. October 17th, 2 p.m. Saturday.

23:46Okay. Thank you.

23:47>> Thank you.

23:48>> I'm done.

23:49>> Thank you so much.

23:50>> All your hair go vote. [laughter]

23:51>> Vote.

23:53>> Council member Ree.

23:55>> Yes. Thank you, mayor. Um,

23:57[clears throat]

23:57some somber updates this evening. I want

24:01to say that we lost one of our own uh

24:03just over a week ago. Um, private Ethan

24:07Brewer, an Apex High graduate 2024,

24:11um, passed away in a training accident

24:13in Fort Hood, Texas with the United

24:16States Army. Um, and I just wanted to um

24:22recognize him and say that this is uh

24:24someone who's assigned to the first

24:26battalion, 82nd Field Artillery

24:28Regiment, First Cavalry Division

24:30Artillery Brigade. Um, and during his

24:32service, he was awarded the Army

24:34Achievement Medal. Um, he wanted to be a

24:36medic. He wanted to help. I think that

24:40well represents this community. And I

24:43just hope that we will um and know that

24:46we will keep private Brewer and the

24:48Brewer family in our prayers and our

24:51hearts. Thank you, Mayor.

24:53>> Thank you, Council Member Ree. And um I

24:56just want to amplify what you just said.

24:58Um that was going to be on my notes as

24:59well in my comments. Um I've went and

25:01visited the family yesterday and um it's

25:04it's really tough for them to be

25:06expected. So please keep them in your

25:08prayers, thoughts. um they're waiting

25:10for

25:12confirmation from the military to move

25:13forward with services. So, we'll

25:15continue to support them as a community

25:17board to come. So, thank you. That is

25:20the only thing I have for my comments.

25:22We'll move now into the adoption of the

25:24meeting agenda and I'll turn it over to

25:26Mr. Coleman to give updates.

25:28>> Good evening, Mayor, mayor prom council

25:30members. Uh the two changes that are

25:33requested are a request to remove

25:34consent item number four, which is the

25:36data voice international agreement, and

25:38then a request to continue public

25:40hearing three and RA1, which is the UDO

25:43and town code amendments related to

25:44resident advisory boards until Tuesday,

25:47October 13, 2026.

25:50>> Okay, thank you for that. With those

25:53changes, is there a motion to adopt the

25:56meeting agenda?

25:57>> So moved.

25:59>> Second, Ziggerman. All in favor say I. I

26:01>> opposed. Motion carries. A move now to

26:02the consent agenda.

26:04>> Mr. Coleman.

26:05>> Uh just as a reminder, consent for town

26:07staff recommends removal of this item.

26:09It's within the town manager's purview

26:10and it's for one fiscal year. So

26:12recommending removal. That's the only

26:14change to the consent agenda.

26:16>> Motion to approve. Motion.

26:18>> Second. Council member move. All in

26:20favor say I.

26:21>> I.

26:22>> Oppos. Motion carries.

26:26>> Council committee reports.

26:28No. All right. So, uh, the responsible

26:32development committee had our first

26:33meeting last Friday morning. And this is

26:36the the first meeting of our our new

26:38committee structure. And one of the

26:39things that we do under our new um

26:42arrangement is that the chair comes to

26:44these meetings as I'm doing right now.

26:46Tells you guys what happened. If there's

26:47any items that come forward from the

26:49meeting, now is the time when we can

26:50discuss them and and make motions or

26:52whatever. Uh, so I'll give you our

26:54report. As it so happens in this

26:57particular committee uh meeting, we

26:59discussed multiple UDO amendments. Um

27:02and as a result, we don't have anything

27:04to act on right now because our UDO

27:06amendments have a statutory process

27:08where they go to different boards and

27:09have hearings. So these are going to go

27:11through that process and eventually come

27:12back to us. Um but there were uh a

27:16couple major topics. The first one had

27:17to do with EV chargers and our standards

27:20inside structure parking. in particular,

27:22public safety came forward with some

27:24concerns about how to handle um

27:27potential EV fires. If it's in certain

27:30parts of a structured parking, a parking

27:32deck, if it's in the middle, you know,

27:34you have an EV fire, they have a hard

27:36time getting to it, hard time getting it

27:37out. There's some concerns there. We

27:39have in Apex particularly aggressive

27:41standards for acquiring either EV

27:43chargers or conduits for future EV

27:45chargers. And this could require through

27:48our standards putting EV chargers in uh

27:51in places that that public safety had

27:54some concerns about. So I was brought to

27:55the committee. Uh the the

27:58um committee concurred with public

28:00safety that we you know it's not our

28:02intention to force chargers to go in

28:05places that that may represent a risk.

28:06Uh so we express some support for

28:08modifying the UDO uh to make sure that's

28:11not required. There are some places

28:12where it's fine. you can imagine on the

28:14first floor of a parking garage near the

28:16edges they can still get to the car or

28:17spray water in or whatever. Uh but some

28:19other places like you know in the middle

28:21of some of the mid to to mid-tier decks

28:24could be problematic. So um staff is

28:27going to work on that and uh and come

28:29forward with some language. The next set

28:31of um changes, we reviewed a series of

28:35UDO amendments uh that related to state

28:39law changes and there were multiple

28:41ones. The session, you know, uh last

28:44wrapped up earlier this year. Um well,

28:47it's not officially over, but I guess,

28:48you know, some some bills have been

28:49signed which impact our laws and we went

28:51over the changes that we're going to

28:52have to make to conform to state laws.

28:54So, these we really don't have a lot of

28:56discretion here. It's more like we just

28:58have to update our UDO to match the new

29:00state laws. And there are five or six of

29:02them. The two I really want to call out

29:03as as sort of big ones is the state has

29:05eliminated the ability of municipalities

29:09to require off- streetet parking

29:12ever. So our parking standards that you

29:15know we we typically say you know uh for

29:18a given

29:20whatever use whatever commercial use you

29:22require x number of spaces. Um we can't

29:24do that anymore. uh the the argument

29:26goes that the developer uh would be in

29:29the best position to know how many

29:31spaces that the market would require. So

29:33our regulation here isn't isn't needed.

29:36Um and I would I would counter that in

29:38in some cases the regulations are still

29:40helpful if you think of things like uh

29:43like a like a strip mall where there's

29:45turnover and different leases and

29:46different uses go in and out. Um the

29:48parking standards can help us, you know,

29:52uh tell a potential lease, well, you

29:54can't move in because there's not enough

29:55spaces. The developer is long gone, but

29:58you know, we'd be the only one

29:59regulating that there. So, I think it

30:01could lead to some potential problems

30:03down the road. The other big one uh that

30:06changed um the state saw fit to legalize

30:11um residential uses in any

30:16redeveloped commercial property across

30:18the state with a maximum height I think

30:20we can set. Otherwise, it's unclear if

30:23we could do any sort of regulations. And

30:25I don't want to get too much of the

30:27details because I'm not a lawyer. Uh but

30:29the impact seems to be pretty

30:30farreaching that any commercial property

30:33that we have in Apex, if a developer

30:35purchases it, they're able to fill it up

30:36with apartments with no density

30:39regulations at all. There's a height

30:40limitation we could put on. I think it's

30:4160 ft or something. Um but

30:45it's unclear what other development

30:49regulations would apply. I think that's

30:51still being worked through. Um because

30:52the only thing called out in the new

30:54state law is that we can set a height

30:55limit. Does that mean we can't set

30:56setback limits or access limits or you

30:59know anything else in the UDO? Um and

31:01it's done by right? So if it's

31:02commercially zoned today, you don't have

31:04to come to us to ask. You can just knock

31:06it down and build build an apartment

31:07building. Um so that'll be a pretty big

31:10change. And I think as older commercial

31:12properties redevelop um you know it

31:14could have a pretty big impact. And

31:17again the argument here is uh we need

31:18housing. So some people view this as

31:20positive that you can you know redevelop

31:22these commercial properties into

31:23housing. And um the only real concern is

31:27that we have a bunch of standards for

31:28good reason and if they don't apply it

31:30could lead to traffic issues or any

31:32number of things. So uh I'll wrap up

31:35there and those changes uh will be

31:38coming forward. They all have different

31:40applicable dates. Some are you know in

31:42force immediately. Some don't go into

31:44force until next July. So over the next

31:46couple months, staff will bring forward

31:48through the UDO process and you'll see

31:49some of those come to us and they'll

31:51explain you're voting on it, but you're

31:52really not voting on it because it's a

31:54state law change. So there we go. That's

31:56my report, mayor.

31:57>> All right. Thanks for that.

31:58>> And uh Councilman Reese, have anything

31:59to add?

32:00>> Good to go.

32:01>> All right. [clears throat]

32:02>> Thanks for the report.

32:02>> If there's any questions,

32:05>> any questions?

32:06>> Yeah.

32:08>> All right. Moving on. Town manager

32:09report.

32:12>> Thank you, mayor. Good evening, council.

32:14We're going to start with uh kind of a

32:16hybrid recognition. We're going to do a

32:17proclamation for for [clears throat]

32:19electric uh public power week. But

32:21before we do that, I would like to

32:23invite up Kathy, our director for our

32:26electric department, and she has some

32:29fantastic [snorts]

32:29news to share about some awards our

32:31department received. So, if you wouldn't

32:33mind.

32:35[clears throat]

32:35>> Good evening.

32:36>> Good evening.

32:38>> Um yes, uh you'll see uh our electric

32:41staff here. Well, some of them. Um and

32:44uh we got several awards this year. Uh

32:47one is the electricity safety award. So

32:50safety is very near and dear to one of

32:52our missions. Um so no loss accidents

32:55for this year. Uh we also got our

32:58American public power association, one

33:00of the national awards that they give

33:02for reliability. So 99%

33:05uh reliability or more. So we're in kind

33:08of the first quartile in reliability

33:09with our peers nationally. And then we

33:12got uh public power awards of excellence

33:15in uh three areas future focused and as

33:18you are focused on long-term planning uh

33:21we being part of the town are as well.

33:23So they recognized us for being future

33:25focused um also providing superior power

33:29which our safety and reliability uh

33:32metrics went into that and then um our

33:34people because without our people what

33:36would we be? So, uh, recognizing all

33:39these wonderful people who are with here

33:40with us and the ones that aren't

33:42necessarily here with us. So, we

33:44appreciate all the support that y'all

33:45give to us.

33:46>> Thank you very much. Thank [applause]

33:47you.

33:54>> Mayor, if you'd like to proceed with the

33:56proclamation reading now and then we'll

33:58invite our electric staff up after you

34:00read the proclamation. Very well. Right.

34:01Let's get it going.

34:20This is uh our honor to proclaim public

34:24power week 2026 with a group read

34:27proclamation and we'll kick it off with

34:29mayor promp.

34:32>> All right. Thank you, mayor.

34:34Whereas public power is built on the

34:37principle of community ownership,

34:39providing locally controlled electric

34:41service that is responsive to the needs

34:43of the people and businesses it serves.

34:45And

34:49whereas the town of Apex has proudly

34:52provided public power since 1917

34:57with the Apex Electric Utilities

34:59Department working each day to deliver

35:01safe, reliable, and efficient electric

35:04service to our growing community. And

35:08whereas public power week observed

35:10October 4th through 10th to 2026

35:13celebrates the more than 2,000

35:15community-owned electric utilities

35:16across the nation. And through this

35:18year's theme, your community, your

35:21utility, your power, highlights the

35:23connection between public power

35:24utilities and the communities they

35:26serve. And

35:31>> whereas the success of public power in

35:35Apex is made possible by the dedicated

35:39professionals of the electric utilities

35:43department whose commitment to safety,

35:46service, reliability, innovation, and

35:50continuous improvement helps keep homes,

35:54businesses, the essential community

35:57services powered each day. And

36:04>> whereas the excellence of the Apex

36:07Electric Utilities Department is further

36:10demonstrated through its recognition

36:12with the American public power

36:14association reliability award, the

36:16electricity's safety award, and the

36:19electricity's public power awards of

36:22excellence in the areas of future

36:24focused provide superior power and

36:27people reflecting the department's

36:29commitment.

36:29to exceptional service and the future of

36:32public power in Apex.

36:37>> Now therefore, I Jacqu K. Gilbert, mayor

36:39of Apex, North Carolina, do hereby

36:42proclaim the week of Sunday, October 4th

36:44through Saturday, October 10, 2026 as

36:47Public Power Week in the town of Apex

36:50and recognize the employees of the Apex

36:52Electric Utilities Department for their

36:54dedication, professionalism, and

36:57outstanding service to our community

36:59while encouraging residents to learn

37:01more about the value and benefits of

37:03their communityowned public power

37:06utility. So, I'd like to call up our

37:08amazing team to come receive the

37:10proclamation. We're so honored to have

37:12you here today and thank you for the

37:13work. [applause]

37:20Okay, I would like to also invite up

37:22town manager Randy Bossberg and also

37:24assistant town manager Marty Stone. You

37:27would please come up.

37:49neighbor. Thanks for being

38:16Put the platform

38:18in the middle.

38:23Three steps back.

39:01ready.

39:041 2 3.

39:09>> Excellent.

39:12[applause]

39:19Are we going to do all the proclamation?

39:21I think we go back up for now.

39:45back to you.

39:46>> All right. Thank you. Uh thank you to

39:47all the staff for being here too from

39:48the electric department. Appreciate it.

39:51All right. I just have a couple other

39:52things and then we can move forward. Uh

39:54I would like to give you an update on

39:56utility billing and uh where we are with

40:00disconnections and payment plans. So we

40:04started a few weeks ago we were looking

40:06at around a thousand people a thousand

40:09accounts total that were facing cut off

40:11based on the threshold that we'd set up.

40:14Uh that was between the two cycles. Uh

40:16they staff has been working feverishly

40:19to get payment plans. Residents have

40:22started to come in. Businesses have

40:23started to come in. The number is now

40:25down uh and it changes almost by the

40:28hour. So, when I started this report for

40:30cycle one, we were down to 246 accounts

40:33that are facing disconnect this week,

40:35which will start tomorrow. But then the

40:38update Sean gave me right before we

40:39walked in, we were down to 211 accounts.

40:42So, that number continues to come down,

40:44it was well over 500 for each cycle and

40:46we're down to 211. Um, still 211

40:49accounts that will be over the next two

40:51days be facing disconnection of

40:53utilities. And so we are having extended

40:57hours for Wednesday and Thursday. We

41:00will be open until 6:30 for people to

41:03come in, make payments on their

41:05accounts, set up payment plans. Um, also

41:07we have the ability if a payment is made

41:09after a disconnect starts. We're having

41:11our staff available to help with

41:13reconnections uh through 6:30. So

41:15hopefully it wouldn't go overnight if

41:16someone comes in and makes the uh

41:18corrections to their account. We staff

41:21has been meeting and Sean has been

41:23leading the team. and they've been

41:24meeting daily to get ready for this.

41:25We've got additional resources in place

41:28for Ask Apex and our utility billing

41:30area. So, we we've sent out letters,

41:34we've done phone calls, we even have

41:35some commercial entities and one of our

41:38staff members personally went to every

41:40commercial entity that was open to make

41:43sure that they knew what was coming this

41:45week. So, we've really tried to prepare

41:47ahead for this week and we're continuing

41:50to work through over the coming days to

41:53help people maintain their utilities. We

41:55also have a partnership that we continue

41:57with NeighborUp and you might have

41:59noticed the table that was down in the

42:00lobby. They were here for several days

42:02last week uh and this week as well. So,

42:05they're helping people sign up if people

42:07get assistance for their bill. There's a

42:09program that we partially fund and

42:11there's some other sources through

42:12neighborup. So that's been a great

42:14partnership that continues. So the

42:16numbers are trending in the right

42:17direction, but don't want to just

42:20overlook the the 200 accounts or so that

42:22we facing disconnect over the next two

42:24days. And then cycle two, we will look

42:27at that. It's I believe the first week

42:29of October, around the sixth or 7th of

42:31October. We'll hopefully get that number

42:34to come down as well, but we'll have

42:36extended hours for that cycle as well.

42:40Just to be clear, NeighborUp is

42:42assisting those who may be in a

42:44financial bind cannot

42:46>> Yes, sir.

42:46>> may not be able to make that payment.

42:48NeighborUp has a program that they can

42:50make an application for and then they

42:52can get assistance with helping take

42:54down some of that debt.

42:55>> Yes, sir.

42:57>> And I understand this is a incredibly

42:59difficult situation for 211

43:02um uh residents and commercial uh uh

43:07places of business. My question is

43:09Is there any recourse for someone over

43:12the weekend? Um whether it's through

43:14neighbor up or anyone. I'm not talking

43:16to getting it back up, but just at least

43:18the communication of hey, I'm ready to

43:21I'm ready. I'm looking for assistance.

43:23I'm doing something. I'm just thinking

43:24about fact that we'll have somebody

43:26who's

43:28in the um I I presume it would be an

43:31anomaly, but for those folks who were

43:34unable to do something during the

43:36>> Right. So, I'll speak first to the

43:38ability to sign up for payment plans

43:39that can be done online. So, even after

43:42work, these working hours, they then

43:44come in and we have to process it. And

43:45that's partially for tomorrow. We are

43:47not starting our disconnect process

43:49until about 10 a.m. is when they will

43:51begin. Um, that's because overnight and

43:53tonight, we feel like people will sign

43:54up for plans. We need to process those,

43:57work through them, approve as many as we

43:58can prior to the 10 a.m. time frame

44:01tomorrow. It'll be the same over the

44:03weekend, but um if you're disconnected

44:05over the weekend, I wouldn't anticipate

44:07reconnection until the working hours,

44:10>> but they still can access the website

44:12and at least initiate the process.

44:13>> Yes, sir. The payment plan, they can

44:14initiate that process, which that's what

44:16we're asking for now. You don't have to

44:18make your account completely current. Um

44:20we're asking you to come in and set up

44:22your payment plan. And there are a lot

44:24of plan options that we can discuss. We

44:26just need people to come in and please

44:28work with us to set up those plans to

44:30avoid a discount.

44:31>> And Councilman Gray's question, just to

44:33reiterate, what does Neighbor Up allow?

44:36I mean, what what kind of assistance?

44:38>> I don't know the exact criteria, but it

44:40is for financial hardships. Um, and it

44:42typically is a one-time assistance. So,

44:44there might be

44:46a one-time assistance to get you going

44:48on, help with the payment plan.

44:50>> Thank you.

44:50>> Um, and also to your point, you brought

44:52up the numbers. When you look at the

44:55percentage, uh, we were we were up

44:57around 5%, we've been working it down.

44:59Right now the total is around 2%. Again,

45:03not minimizing it, right? But it's a lot

45:04better situation than we were in a few

45:06months ago or even a few weeks ago to be

45:09down to around 2% we're looking at

45:10between the cycles.

45:13>> Any other questions on that? Okay. All

45:17right. I'm going to move on to something

45:18a little more fun. Uh our as you recall,

45:22I came before you to ask for some

45:24assistance for downtown to work on

45:26different events and initiating. I am

45:28excited. Most of you were at our first

45:30one. It's called Love Local Fall into

45:32Downtown. Uh we'll be doing those for

45:34September, October, and November. We had

45:36our first one this past Friday. Uh it

45:39was in front of the depot and it was a

45:41great event. We got a little street

45:43hockey in a little friendly competition

45:45with council here. Um

45:47>> scored twice,

45:48>> right?

45:48>> When no one was ready. No one was ready.

45:50You just scored

45:51>> and I even the goals were small and I

45:53laid down in front of the goal, but

45:55someone still scored. I don't know how

45:56[laughter] that happened. That was me.

45:57>> You score, but I was blocking the entire

45:59goal. I don't It was weird. So, it was

46:02>> It was a great event. I do want to thank

46:04the Carolina Hurricanes. Uh you guys

46:06made an allocation for us to spend and

46:08we had to spend very little on this

46:09first event because they brought

46:11everything. They brought the mascot,

46:12they brought the inflatables, they

46:13brought the the equipment for kids to

46:15use for street hockey. Uh so, again, a

46:17great partnership with them and they

46:19supplied. We just we just had to provide

46:21the music. So, we paid for the DJ out of

46:23the funds, but everything else was

46:24covered by the Hurricanes. uh great

46:26event and appreciate that partnership

46:28which kicked off the registration for

46:30street hockey was Monday and I I was

46:33hearing numbers and I think we were over

46:35double from the last season on street

46:37hockey. So that continues to be a

46:38successful program to grow. So awesome

46:41and thank you all for coming out to that

46:42event. The next two I'll mention again

46:44it's the third Friday of every month. So

46:47the next one will be October 16th from 5

46:50to 8 and that's going to be fall harvest

46:52night. So we anticipate having some

46:54farmer farmers market vendors. Uh there

46:57will be a pumpkin patch so you can come

46:58and pick up your pumpkins for the

47:00season. Uh there's going to be a band,

47:02so we'll have music, activities, and

47:04fall events. Then November, it will be

47:06November 20th again from 5 to 8:00 p.m.

47:10And that one is called Jazz and Jive.

47:13Jazz and Jive Night.

47:14>> Jazz and J.

47:15>> Uh stay tuned for what that includes. I

47:18know they've booked some entertainment

47:19for that event and it should be pretty

47:21exciting. And also thank you to our

47:23downtown team. We've got four business

47:24owners that have been helping us work

47:26through this and they have been a

47:27tremendous asset to us um on keeping us

47:30informed on how we can better support

47:32the businesses there. All right. Then

47:35the last thing I have again is an

47:37exciting thing. We put it out I think we

47:38released it tonight on social media. The

47:41Stanley Cup, we announced it on Friday

47:43is coming to Apex. We now have some

47:45additional details to share. I shared on

47:47Friday uh that it will be here on

47:49Monday, September 28th. And again, we're

47:52taking what we can get. They uh they

47:54tell us the date, the time, and give us

47:56a lot of parameters, but we are super

47:58excited to have the cup here. So,

48:00Monday, September 28th from 2 to 3:30

48:04p.m. So, it is during the day. The cup

48:07will be traveling, I think it starts

48:08that day in Fugquway. Then, it goes to

48:11Holly Springs and then they conclude in

48:13Apex uh from 2 to 3:30. It will be at

48:16Pleasant Park. It'll be on our signature

48:19field, which is the field that has the

48:20only field out there that has the logo A

48:23on the in the middle of the field. Uh

48:25the field will be closed off until we'll

48:28open it at 1:30 and then when the gates

48:31open at 1:30, we will have four lines

48:33that will form around the trophy. Uh so

48:36we're going to try and run as many

48:38people as we can. If you want a picture

48:39with the cup, you'll get in one of those

48:41lines. If you want a picture of the cup,

48:43then there'll be kind of view sheds in

48:44between the lines where you can go up

48:46and just get your photo. Uh so hopefully

48:48a lot of people will get pictures of the

48:49cup. Uh, and we're going to run four

48:51lines to get hopefully as many people as

48:53possible, but we're told at 3:30 the cup

48:56moves. So hopefully we get people

48:58through. That's why we're trying the

48:59four lines. Uh, have your cameras ready

49:02and we'll have staff that are going to

49:03assist. Thank you to our comm's

49:05department, our parks and recck

49:06department. Um, each line will have

49:08multiple staff members working it to

49:09take the picture with uh, people's

49:11cameras that they bring their phones.

49:13Uh, so hopefully everyone will be ready

49:14in line, have their camera phones open

49:16and and be ready for the pictures. So

49:18should be an exciting event. 2 to 3:30

49:20on Monday the 28th at Pleasant Park. And

49:24that is all that.

49:26>> He said it's gonna be here from 2:00 to

49:275. [laughter]

49:28>> I wish. And I'm trying like we're the

49:30last stop. So I'm like, can we get but

49:32they said 3:30 that's when it's out. So

49:34>> interesting. I was at a Wake County

49:36Mayor's Association meeting last night

49:37and two towns got left out. So they're

49:39trying to trying to clean that up. Very

49:41fortunate.

49:42>> Very fortunate. So [clears throat] thank

49:43you for that report.

49:44>> Mayor, can I just take a second? I just

49:46want to compliment town staff working so

49:47hard on the Stanley Cup thing. It just

49:50kind of drops on you. They tell you

49:52here's when it's going to be here and I

49:54mean 2 o'clock on a Monday and you it

49:57could have been just a few people

49:59getting a chance to see it and the fact

50:00that you folks work so hard to get um a

50:03place for it to essentially democratize

50:06um the opportunity and you know I I just

50:09wanted to commend you folks for for

50:11rolling up your sleeves and um and doing

50:13the hard work. Thank you.

50:14>> Thank you. Appreciate that. and staff

50:15has worked very hard. We got the details

50:17last week and so it was quickly going to

50:18planning mode and they told us that in

50:21their experience roughly about 200

50:23people get to see the cup and we took

50:24that as a challenge of how can we get

50:27two four six 800 who knows to see the

50:29cup. So our intent is to get as many

50:32people as possible instead of just the

50:33200 that they typically see. So thank

50:36you for that.

50:38>> Great work.

50:39>> All right, town clerk report.

50:41>> Yes, mayor. We have several appointments

50:43on tonight's agenda. Um and so we will

50:46start with the first one for

50:48appointments to the culture and arts

50:49advisory board just to explain the

50:51process. Um we have um ballots here in

50:56response to the current rules of

50:57procedure. Um my understanding is that

51:00the mayor will make a recommendation

51:03by position and then I will distribute

51:06the ballots. If council has unanimous

51:09support, they can make a motion to

51:12suspend the rules and forgo the ballots.

51:15But we have ballots ready for

51:18distribution whenever you will.

51:19>> We ready to roll?

51:21>> Everybody ready?

51:22>> All right. We'll start with the first

51:24one. Recommendation um for reappoint

51:27of Daryl Helen.

51:36Are doing the balance.

51:58So this is just for Daryl Harry. Is that

52:01right?

52:02>> Yes. We're doing one by one, right?

52:03We're doing one position at a time.

52:05Okay.

52:06So you'll write in Daryl Harian and then

52:08either yes or no.

52:41Thank you. Thank you.

53:02Okay. So, the recommendation for Daryl

53:05Harian reappoint, uh, council member

53:07move says yes.

53:10Council member Gray says yes. Council

53:13member Reese says yes. Mayor Promappy

53:16says yes. Council member Ziggerman says

53:19yes. Passes five to zero.

53:21>> Okay. Thank you. Moving on.

53:26We have I have a recommendation for

53:30Christy

53:37on the appointment.

54:12Mayor's recommendation for the second

54:13position on culture and arts was for

54:16Christy Farmealor.

54:18Council member moves supports that

54:20recommendation.

54:22Council member Gray supports that

54:24recommendation.

54:25Council member Reese supports that

54:27recommendation.

54:29Council member Zigerman supports that

54:31recommendation. And Mayor Prom supports

54:33that recommendation. Passes five to

54:35zero.

54:36>> All right, we have one more for that

54:38board.

54:40Um, next recommendation is Amy Prenes.

55:28The third position for the culture and

55:30arts, the mayor's recommendation is Amy

55:32Prz. Council member Zigerman says no.

55:37Mayor Proin Mafy, no.

55:40Council member Ree, no.

55:44Council member Gray, no. Council member

55:48move. No. The recommendation fails five

55:51to zero.

55:54>> Moving on to the culture advisory board.

55:56Youth.

56:05I have a recommendation of

56:08Julian. Juliana Corsetti.

56:43Mayor's recommendation for the culture

56:44and arts youth position.

56:48Juliana Corsetti, Council Member Moo

56:50supports that recommendation.

56:52Council member Zigerman supports that

56:54recommendation.

56:55Mayor Pro Tim supports that

56:57recommendation.

56:59Council member Reese supports that

57:01recommendation. Council member Grace

57:03supports that recommendation. The

57:05recommendation passes five to zero.

57:07>> All right. Thank you. All right. Moving

57:09now to environmental advisory board.

57:10Youth one position.

57:15Angela

57:18Angela Lou is my recommendation

57:21for you.

57:47Okay. For the environmental advisory

57:49board youth position, the mayor

57:51recommends Angela Louu. Council member

57:53Zigerman supports that recommendation.

57:56Mayor Pro Tim supports that

57:57recommendation.

57:59Council member Reese supports that

58:01recommendation. Council member Gray

58:03supports that recommendation. Council

58:06member Moose supports that

58:07recommendation. It passes five to zero.

58:09>> Thank you. All right. Multimmo

58:12Transportation Advisory Board. We have

58:13one position.

58:25Luis Gregorus.

58:30Who is their recommendation?

58:31>> Mr. Gus

58:53[clears throat]

58:58for the multimodal transportation

59:00advisory board position. The

59:02recommendation was Lewis Gregus. Council

59:06member move opposes that recommendation.

59:10Mayor Proton Maffy opposes that

59:12recommendation.

59:14Council member Zigerman opposes that

59:16recommendation.

59:18Council member Reese opposes that

59:20recommendation. Council member Gray

59:22supports that recommendation. It pass uh

59:25fails, excuse me, 4 to one.

59:29Okay.

59:31All right. Moving on to

59:35the youth

59:37transportation advisory board. My

59:40recommendation is

59:43Kadori.

59:47Kadori.

59:50>> Okay.

1:00:17for the multimodal transportation

1:00:19advisory board youth position. ition.

1:00:22Council member Reese supports that

1:00:24recommendation for Samishka Kadari.

1:00:27Council member Gray supports that

1:00:29recommendation. Mayor Pro Mappy supports

1:00:32that recommendation. Council member

1:00:35Zigerman opposes that recommendation.

1:00:44[cough]

1:00:48>> That

1:00:51Council member Moo supports that

1:00:53recommendation.

1:00:55Council member Zigerman supports that

1:00:57recommendation. It passes five to zero.

1:01:00>> Okie dokie. Moving on. Parks and

1:01:04Recreation Advisory Board. Two

1:01:05positions. Uh my first recommendation is

1:01:07Robert Fabber.

1:01:35The first position on the parks and

1:01:37recreation advisory board.

1:01:40The recommendation was Robert Berber.

1:01:43Mayor promappy supports that

1:01:45recommendation. Council member Moo

1:01:48supports that recommendation.

1:01:50Council member Zigerman supports that

1:01:52recommendation.

1:01:54Council member Reese supports that

1:01:55recommendation.

1:01:57Council member Gray supports that

1:01:59recommendation. It passes 5 to zero.

1:02:01>> All right. Thank you. Next reappoint for

1:02:04that parts recovery board. Um my

1:02:07recommendation

1:02:11Jeremy Crew.

1:02:14Jeremy Crew.

1:02:41the second regular position on the parks

1:02:43and recreation advisory board. The

1:02:45mayor's recommendation is Jeremy Kroom.

1:02:49Council member Moo supports that

1:02:51recommendation. Council member Zigerman

1:02:54supports that recommendation.

1:02:56Mayor Proin Mappy supports that

1:02:58recommendation.

1:03:00Council member Gray supports that

1:03:02recommendation.

1:03:03Council member Reese supports that

1:03:05recommendation. It passes 5 to zero.

1:03:19>> [clears throat]

1:03:35>> Okay. So, we're you've now part the

1:03:37recreation department

1:03:38>> senior

1:03:39>> senior position for portion.

1:03:43>> Yep.

1:03:45>> Okay.

1:03:47Jim Herz

1:04:14for the senior position on parks and

1:04:16recreation. The mayor's recommendation

1:04:18is Jim Herz.

1:04:21Council member Moo opposes that

1:04:23recommendation.

1:04:25Council member Ree opposes that

1:04:27recommendation.

1:04:29Council member Gray opposes that

1:04:32recommendation.

1:04:34Council member Zigerman opposes that

1:04:36recommendation.

1:04:38Council, excuse me, Mayor Promappy

1:04:40opposes that recommendation. It fails.

1:04:43Five to zero.

1:04:48Okay, now on to the youth

1:04:55or pancreas.

1:05:22for the parks and recreation advisory

1:05:24board youth position. The re

1:05:25recommendation of the mayor is Arie

1:05:27Pankritz.

1:05:29Council member Moo supports that

1:05:31recommendation.

1:05:33Council member Ziggerman supports that

1:05:35recommendation.

1:05:37Mayor Pro Tim Maffy supports that

1:05:39recommendation.

1:05:41Council member Reese supports that

1:05:43recommendation.

1:05:45Council member Gray supports that

1:05:47recommendation. It passes 5 to zero. All

1:05:49right. Thank you. All right. Final

1:05:52planning board youth. My recommendation

1:05:54is

1:05:56Nathan Jesperson. Nathan Jesperson.

1:06:25for the planning board youth position.

1:06:27The mayor's recommendation is Nathan

1:06:29Jesperson.

1:06:31Council member moves supports that

1:06:32recommendation.

1:06:34Council member Ziggerman supports that

1:06:36recommendation.

1:06:37Mayor Proin Mappy opposes that

1:06:40recommendation.

1:06:42Council member Gray supports that

1:06:44recommendation.

1:06:46Council member Reese supports that

1:06:48recommendation. It passes 4 to one.

1:06:54And then we've got the planning board

1:06:56position based on the interview.

1:06:59Okay.

1:07:16ready.

1:07:18Recommendation for that will be um Kyone

1:07:21Neville.

1:08:07I'm not sure

1:08:15for the planning board rec planning

1:08:17board position regular position. The

1:08:20recommendation of the mayor was Kyone

1:08:22Neville.

1:08:24Council member Zigerman opposes that

1:08:26recommendation.

1:08:28Mayor Proin Mappy opposes that

1:08:30recommendation.

1:08:32Council member Reese supports that

1:08:34recommendation.

1:08:36Council member Gray supports that

1:08:38recommendation. And Council Member Moo

1:08:40opposes that recommendation. It fails

1:08:42three to two.

1:08:45>> That was the only recommendation I had.

1:08:54Thank you everyone for

1:08:57the engagement with this. We'll move now

1:08:59to

1:09:01Is it time for public forum? No, we got

1:09:03proclamations.

1:09:05Public art. Oh, public art. Yeah, right

1:09:07here. Exactly. Mr. Cowwell

1:09:10trying to move the meeting along. It

1:09:12says 7:45 is our any time.

1:09:15>> All right.

1:09:17Well, Mr. Mayor, town council, town

1:09:19staff, thank you very much for your

1:09:21support of public art and for giving me

1:09:22an opportunity to share a little bit

1:09:24about what's going on around town. Jump

1:09:27right into it. So, we have a lot going

1:09:29on this fall. So, um we should be seeing

1:09:32uh a couple of new projects uh coming

1:09:34out. So, we have two murals uh that are

1:09:37in progress right now. What we the stage

1:09:40that we're in is design stage and uh

1:09:43they are out for public comment uh right

1:09:45now. That public comment will stay until

1:09:47about October 5th. At that time, we'll

1:09:50close public comment, take the input

1:09:52from the public, uh, incorporate some

1:09:55ideas, make some revisions, and roll it

1:09:57through the approval process, goes to

1:09:59the cultural and arts board, and then up

1:10:00to this body for approval. The two

1:10:03locations are shown here. One is a

1:10:04retaining wall at Saunders Street

1:10:06parking lot. Britt Flood, an artist out

1:10:08of Chapel Hill, be doing that project.

1:10:11And then Amy Cruz, an artist out of

1:10:12Winston Salem, will be um doing a mural

1:10:15uh at the amphitheater. It'll be the

1:10:18yellow section you see on the

1:10:19amphitheater there that uh be a 360

1:10:22mural around the entire thing. So it

1:10:23should be a very nice addition to that

1:10:26to that park.

1:10:28Also going on, we have the uh Apex

1:10:30Sculpture Walk of course in progress and

1:10:33um we have our two award winners that I

1:10:35wanted to announce here. So we have our

1:10:37people's choice award. So, we take uh

1:10:38voting by the public and they have

1:10:40selected the butterfly enchanter which

1:10:41is a piece that's located uh in downtown

1:10:44right in front of the depot. Uh so, it's

1:10:47great. You can go, you know, right up to

1:10:48it and uh get up close and personal.

1:10:50It's a smaller piece and um you know, I

1:10:52think you enjoy it if you you take a

1:10:54look at it from all all the way around.

1:10:56Uh and then inspired by Jessica

1:10:58Bradshshire was our best in show winner.

1:11:00That piece in front of uh WZ Law and

1:11:03also a beautiful piece. She's an artist

1:11:06out of Greensboro.

1:11:10and we have our master plan in progress.

1:11:13So, we've been at this for about 10

1:11:15years and um we've I think done quite a

1:11:18few nice things over those years and uh

1:11:20wanted to put a bit more formality

1:11:22around things and really set us up for

1:11:24the next decade or so. So, uh, we've

1:11:26engaged with a consultant, uh, to help

1:11:29pull together, uh, concepts for, uh,

1:11:32future plans, uh, and also revise and

1:11:34take a look at some of our, uh, existing

1:11:37documentation that we have that's, uh,

1:11:39to make sure it's up to date and it's

1:11:40got some good outside ideas from other

1:11:42communities. Uh, so that work's taking

1:11:44place now. We've seen a draft of that.

1:11:47We'll have another revision coming out

1:11:48in the next couple of weeks. And then

1:11:51also this fall we'll be bringing it

1:11:52forward for approval first the cultural

1:11:54arts board and then uh we'll bring it to

1:11:56this body to present the concepts in

1:11:58there and uh get your approval and

1:12:01endorsement of that of that plan.

1:12:04And then finally uh one of our favorite

1:12:06events that we do every year is our

1:12:08downtown window painting. We partner

1:12:10with the local high schools. So Apex

1:12:12High, Apex Friendships and Felton Grove

1:12:15will be participating this year. It's a

1:12:17terrific event. Um, we get between 20

1:12:22and 40 students out there depending on

1:12:23how many show up and how the how the

1:12:25weather turns out. But it's always it's

1:12:27always great. They'll paint windows at

1:12:28the heli and at the fire station. And I

1:12:31encourage any of you to swing by, grab a

1:12:33brush and help out if you'd like. Uh,

1:12:35November 30th is the date that we do

1:12:37that. It's the Monday after

1:12:38Thanksgiving. And then uh we're ready

1:12:40for the uh holiday season and um bring a

1:12:44little bit joy downtown. So uh we enjoy

1:12:47that. So yeah, I'll just pause there and

1:12:49that's all I have to share. So I just

1:12:50want to see if you have any questions or

1:12:52or comments or something I can help you

1:12:54with.

1:12:54>> Thanks for your work always.

1:12:56>> I do have one quick question. It's

1:12:57probably more for the town manager. So

1:13:00usually like once a year by one of those

1:13:02crews or one of the sculptures from the

1:13:04sculpture walk.

1:13:05>> That's right.

1:13:06>> I forgot to mention that we will uh

1:13:08we'll be bringing one forward at your uh

1:13:10next meeting. We uh we just uh working

1:13:12that through the process and those steps

1:13:14and we'll be bringing peace forward uh

1:13:16in October. Thank you very much.

1:13:19>> Yeah, I just want to say thank you to

1:13:21HART for the hard work on this. I mean,

1:13:22this is, you know, art is, you know, the

1:13:25essence of expression. Expression is a

1:13:27first amendment right. So, what you're

1:13:29doing out there is helping to support

1:13:30that sort of activity. I I'm I'm always

1:13:33looking for ways to make sure that we

1:13:34can, you know, push and move forward,

1:13:36you know, like apex artists, too. So,

1:13:38yes, I'm always looking for that

1:13:40opportunity. I, you know, great to see

1:13:42folks from Greece.

1:13:42>> As are we. So the sculpture uh the apex

1:13:44sculpture walk 7th version of that is

1:13:46call for artists is open right now. So

1:13:48if you know any sculptors that are local

1:13:50please have them apply. Um we're

1:13:52accepting those applications till early

1:13:54November.

1:13:55>> Thanks for what you do.

1:13:57>> All right. Any other questions for Tom?

1:13:59>> Yes. Um probably anyone and any age is

1:14:05acceptable.

1:14:07anyone, any age, you know, somebody like

1:14:09even todd toddlers, you know, five,

1:14:12>> it dep it depends on what project. So,

1:14:14when we're doing a mural, we're um

1:14:17looking for professional artists and

1:14:18they're uh 18 or over. They do need to

1:14:21attest to that. Um they have to have the

1:14:23proper insuranceances and uh other

1:14:25proper experience and background to do

1:14:27the do those type of projects. But there

1:14:29are other activities that that we do

1:14:30have for you.

1:14:32>> I mean for the window tending,

1:14:34>> we are working with the high schools. So

1:14:36they should work through their high

1:14:37school. So we we work with the um

1:14:39typically the art honor societies and so

1:14:43they should they should work through

1:14:44their school there to come on down.

1:14:46>> Got it.

1:14:47>> Okay.

1:14:47>> Thank you.

1:14:48>> Are you sure you really want us out

1:14:50there with a brush? [laughter]

1:14:52>> That's

1:14:54Thanks for your work. All right.

1:14:55>> You're welcome. Thank you.

1:14:56>> Thank you.

1:14:58>> All right. Moving on to proclamation

1:15:00special presentations. We have three

1:15:03more proclamations to do and I could

1:15:06have everyone to join me out front.

1:15:33>> [clears throat]

1:15:35>> this proclamation,

1:15:37prisoners of war and missing in action

1:15:40recognition day 2026.

1:15:43Whereas throughout our nation's history,

1:15:47generations of Americans have answered

1:15:50the call to military service, placing

1:15:53themselves in harm's way in defense of

1:15:57our country and the freedoms we cherish.

1:16:04Whereas among those who served are

1:16:08members of our armed forces who were

1:16:11held as prisoners of war or remain

1:16:15missing in action, whose courage and

1:16:19sacrifice hold a lasting place in our

1:16:23nation's history. end.

1:16:29>> Whereas for the families of those who

1:16:31have not returned home, the absence of

1:16:34answers brings an enduring burden and

1:16:36their strength and perseverance and hope

1:16:39deserve our continued recognition and

1:16:41support. hand.

1:16:46Whereas the United States remains

1:16:48committed to accounting for missing

1:16:49service members and honoring the promise

1:16:52that those who served will not be

1:16:54forgotten.

1:16:58Whereas the town of Apex joins

1:17:00communities across the nation in

1:17:02honoring former prisoners of war,

1:17:04remembering those who remain missing in

1:17:06action, supporting their families, and

1:17:08expressing profound gratitude to all who

1:17:11have served our country.

1:17:16>> Now therefore, I, Jacqu K. Gilbert,

1:17:18mayor of Apex, North Carolina, do hereby

1:17:21proclaim Friday, September 25th, 2026,

1:17:25as prisoners of war missing in action

1:17:27recognition day in the town of Apex, and

1:17:30encourage residents to observe this day

1:17:32with remembrance, gratitude, and respect

1:17:35for those who endured captivity, those

1:17:38who remain unaccounted for, and the

1:17:40families who continue to await answers.

1:17:44I would like to call up representatives

1:17:46of the American Legion Post 124. Surel

1:17:50Helms Jr., United States Marine Corps

1:17:52veteran. Marcus Jackson, United States

1:17:55Air Force veteran. Karen Etelis,

1:17:58United States Air Force veteran. And

1:17:59Jesus Etelis, United States Army

1:18:01veteran. Please come up and accept the

1:18:03proclamation. Thank you.

1:18:06[applause]

1:18:11>> [applause]

1:19:07[clears throat]

1:19:13>> Yeah.

1:19:51Hey, Mayor Gilbert. Uh, Mayor Pro Tim

1:19:53Mafy, uh, Apex Town Council members and

1:19:56citizens of Apex. Uh, thank you so much

1:19:59for honoring our PS and MIAs with this

1:20:01proclamation. I am Dennis Schmidt. I'm

1:20:04the commander of Apex Legion Post 124.

1:20:07Uh, a PM MIA chair is placed at all

1:20:11official meetings of the American Legion

1:20:14as a physical symbol of the many

1:20:16thousands of American PS still

1:20:18unaccounted for from all wars and

1:20:21conflicts involving the United States of

1:20:22America. This is a reminder for all of

1:20:25us to spare no effort to secure the

1:20:28release of any American prisoners from

1:20:30captivity, the repatriation of the

1:20:33remains of those who died bravely in

1:20:35defense of liberty, and a full

1:20:37accounting for those still missing.

1:20:40As part of the day of recognition, we

1:20:42ask Americans to pause and reflect on

1:20:44the sacrifices made by the military men

1:20:47and women who are imprisoned or

1:20:49unaccounted for. Rallies and ceremonies

1:20:52are held throughout the nation to honor

1:20:54those US service members who have yet to

1:20:57return home and the families left

1:20:59without closure as the fate of their

1:21:01loved ones.

1:21:04Let's look at a few numbers. According

1:21:06to Congressional Research Service report

1:21:09on PS,

1:21:1113,21

1:21:13World War II service members were

1:21:16imprisoned.

1:21:1714,72

1:21:20of those died in captivity.

1:21:247,140

1:21:26Korean War service members were

1:21:28imprisoned and 2,71 of those died in

1:21:32captivity.

1:21:34725

1:21:36Vietnam War service members were

1:21:38imprisoned. 64 of those died.

1:21:42and 37 service members were imprisoned

1:21:44during conflicts since 1991, including

1:21:47the Gulf Wars. And uh none of those are

1:21:50still in captivity.

1:21:53According to the Defense P accounting

1:21:56agency, more than 81,500

1:22:00Americans remain missing from World War

1:22:03II, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the

1:22:08Cold War, the Gulf Wars, and other

1:22:10conflicts. 75% of those missing are

1:22:13located in the Indoacific area. Over

1:22:1641,000

1:22:19missing are presumed lost at sea.

1:22:22We at the American Legion remain

1:22:24committed to the PMI cause until all are

1:22:27accounted for. Let's rededicate our

1:22:30services or ourselves to this vital

1:22:33endeavor. May God bless our PSA and

1:22:36their families. THANK YOU.

1:22:39[applause]

1:22:59ALL

1:23:11RIGHT. THE NEXT proclamation is for

1:23:13Indigenous People's Day

1:23:172026.

1:23:18Whereas indigenous peoples have shaped

1:23:20the history, culture, and character of

1:23:23the lands we now call home through

1:23:25generations of community, tradition,

1:23:27knowledge, creativity, and stewardship.

1:23:30And

1:23:35>> whereas Indigenous People's Day provides

1:23:38an opportunity to honor the enduring

1:23:40presence and contributions of native

1:23:43peoples while deepening our

1:23:45understanding of the diverse histories,

1:23:47cultures, traditions, and experiences of

1:23:51indigenous communities.

1:23:56Whereas this observance also invites

1:23:59reflection upon the hardships and

1:24:01injustices experienced by indigenous

1:24:02peoples throughout history and

1:24:05recognizes the importance of

1:24:06understanding, respect, reconciliation,

1:24:10and meaningful connection among

1:24:11communities. And

1:24:16whereas the town of Apex values

1:24:18opportunities that bring people together

1:24:20to learn from one another, celebrate

1:24:22cultural traditions, share stories, and

1:24:25recognize living cultures and continued

1:24:28contributions of indigenous peoples

1:24:31today. And

1:24:36>> whereas the town of Apex will

1:24:39commemorate indigenous people's day on

1:24:42Monday, October 12, 2026 at Apex Nature

1:24:47Park with performances and storytelling,

1:24:51friendship

1:24:52dancers, food, crafts, and opportunities

1:24:57to experience and learn about indigenous

1:25:00culture in collaboration with the

1:25:03Triangle Native American Society.

1:25:09>> Now therefore, I Jacqu K. Gilbert, mayor

1:25:11of Apex, North Carolina, do hereby

1:25:13proclaim Monday, October 12th, 2026 as

1:25:18Indigenous People's Day in the town of

1:25:20Apex and encourage residents to observe

1:25:22this day through learning, reflection,

1:25:25celebration, and appreciation of the

1:25:27history, cultures, traditions, and

1:25:30enduring contributions of indigenous

1:25:32peoples. I would like to call up

1:25:37to receive the proclamation members of

1:25:39the Triangle Native American Society,

1:25:41Danny Bale, JD Freeman, and Larry

1:25:44Edwards. Please come up and receive the

1:25:46proclamation. [applause]

1:26:42Um, thank you. Uh, my name is JD

1:26:44Freeman. I'm a resident of the town of

1:26:45Apex. I'm also a member of the Lumbi

1:26:48tribe growing up in Robinson County. But

1:26:51uh this is the sixth or seventh year

1:26:53that Apex has hosted uh Indigenous

1:26:55People's Day. Um it started out very

1:26:57small. I was actually the MC. Can't

1:26:59believe they let me stand up and talk.

1:27:01But um it's outgrown me now. There's uh

1:27:05lots of dancers and uh also I still make

1:27:08the chicken box so I will have that. So

1:27:10please come out um enjoy the day with us

1:27:12and we'd love to fellowship with every

1:27:14everyone. So thank you. [applause]

1:27:21I'd like to also I'm a lumbi uh live in

1:27:23Chapel Hill but I've uh enjoyed coming

1:27:25over to Apex and I uh looking up your

1:27:28name Apex you know the point but also

1:27:30how you have uh introduced spirituality

1:27:33into what you are around here. Thank you

1:27:35for this proclamation which uh honors us

1:27:39and also uh helps honor the indigenous

1:27:42people that were at Jordan Lake. You

1:27:44know, there are a couple of different

1:27:45villages that were uh there before the

1:27:48lake was filled. Uh those remains are

1:27:50over with the office of state

1:27:51archaeology and maybe with the research

1:27:53labs of archaeology. But uh the way Apex

1:27:56has honored us over the years with this

1:27:58uh indigenous people's day and with the

1:28:01uh this proclamation is uh outstanding.

1:28:04Uh, I'd like to give to the uh um

1:28:09mayor some uh Sakawa coins, which is US

1:28:12uh uh money that could be spent. And in

1:28:15the front is Sakawa, but on the back

1:28:17side is uh an Anida lady, Polly Cooper,

1:28:21who is involved uh her tribe with the

1:28:24Anidas with the American Revolution at

1:28:26Valley Forge and uh honor of what you've

1:28:29done for us uh in the past and how we

1:28:32hope to work with you for many many

1:28:35years in the future.

1:28:38[applause]

1:28:50Thank you all for being here tonight.

1:29:00>> Final proclamation is fire prevention

1:29:03week 2026, Sunday, October 4th through

1:29:05Saturday, October 10th. And who's

1:29:08kicking us off in that way? Council

1:29:10member Moo.

1:29:10>> How about that?

1:29:12>> Okay.

1:29:15Proclamation for fire prevention week

1:29:182026.

1:29:20Whereas fire prevention begins with

1:29:24awareness, preparation, and everyday

1:29:27choices that help protect our homes,

1:29:32families, businesses, and community from

1:29:36preventable fires and injuries. And

1:29:44>> whereas rechargeable devices powered by

1:29:46lithium ion batteries have become an

1:29:48increasingly common part of daily life,

1:29:50making safe charging practices an

1:29:53important component of modern fire

1:29:55prevention. hand.

1:29:59Whereas residents can reduce the risk of

1:30:01battery related fires by using approved

1:30:03charging equipment, charging devices on

1:30:05safe surfaces and away from exits,

1:30:09unplugging devices when fully charged,

1:30:10and recognizing warning signs of damaged

1:30:12or overheating batteries. And

1:30:18>> whereas the Apex Fire Department remains

1:30:21committed to pay to protecting those who

1:30:24live, work, and visit our community

1:30:26through emergency response, fire

1:30:28prevention, inspections, public

1:30:31education, and community risk reduction.

1:30:37Whereas the 2026 fire prevention week

1:30:40theme, charge into fire safety, safe

1:30:42charging is a superpower, reminds

1:30:44everyone that simple and responsible

1:30:46charging habits can help prevent fires

1:30:49and protect people and places that

1:30:51matter most.

1:30:55Now therefore, Ajac K. Gilbert, mayor of

1:30:58Apex, North Carolina, do hereby proclaim

1:31:00Sunday, October 4th through Saturday,

1:31:02October 10th, 2026 as Fire Prevention

1:31:06Week in the town of Apex and encourage

1:31:08residents to practice safe charging

1:31:10habits, strengthen fire safety in their

1:31:12homes and workplaces, and join the Apex

1:31:15Fire Department in building a safer and

1:31:17more prepared community. And I would

1:31:20like to call up Courtney Butler, Chief

1:31:24Tim Herman, and assistant town manager

1:31:27Demetria John. And members of the fire

1:31:30department, please come up. We got a

1:31:32video to SHOW [applause]

1:32:10You'll be able to play or do I need to

1:32:12come around? Okay, cool.

1:32:14>> Oh, I'm sorry. Let me get this.

1:32:17>> All right. Good evening, everyone. Good

1:32:20evening, mayor and members of the

1:32:22council. Thank you guys for indulging

1:32:24us. Um, fire prevention week is super

1:32:26important. Um, on behalf of the Apex

1:32:29Fire Department, thank you for

1:32:31recognizing fire prevention week October

1:32:344th to the 10th. Um, with tonight's

1:32:36proclamation this year, NFPA theme is

1:32:40charge into fire safety. Safe charging

1:32:43is a superpower. That message became

1:32:46super clear this week, actually

1:32:48yesterday. Um, it became real for us and

1:32:51I'm going to pull out a little prop

1:32:52here. Um, yesterday the Apex Fire

1:32:55Department responded to a local business

1:32:57after a power bank caught fire.

1:33:00Fortunately, someone nearby recognized

1:33:02the danger and acted quickly with a fire

1:33:05extinguisher. Okay.

1:33:08Tonight, I brought the actual power bank

1:33:10for you guys to see. Um, this is kind of

1:33:13just like a real time reminder of what

1:33:16can happen with these products that you

1:33:18have in your homes every single day. Um,

1:33:22it was unfortunate that it happened, but

1:33:24um, luckily they gave it to me so I

1:33:26could uh, share it with you guys. Um,

1:33:28it's an important reminder to look at

1:33:31the back of your chargers and make sure

1:33:32it is third party tested. So that could

1:33:34be like United Laboratories, um, ETL,

1:33:37look for those marks because that means

1:33:39somebody actually went out there and

1:33:40tested it. Okay. Um, and before I

1:33:45introduce my celebrity guest this

1:33:48evening, um, I'd like to share a quick

1:33:50video. um of the NFPA's video this year

1:33:53of supercharging is a superpower.

1:33:58>> Join NFPA and fire departments across

1:34:00North America

1:34:04for Fire Prevention Week 2026. Charge

1:34:07into Fire Safety. Safe charging is a

1:34:09superpower. Every superhero has a

1:34:12mission. Yours starts every time you

1:34:14plug in. Start strong. Use the cord and

1:34:18charging block that came with your

1:34:19device or one approved by the

1:34:21manufacturer.

1:34:23Table or desk, that's a power move.

1:34:25Charge on a hard, flat surface, not on a

1:34:28bed, couch, or under a pillow. Fully

1:34:31charged, power down and unplug. Feels

1:34:34hot, stop using it. Superheroes know the

1:34:37warning signs. If a device feels very

1:34:39hot, starts swelling, smoking, or smells

1:34:42strange, stop using it right away. Big

1:34:45batteries need superhero size space.

1:34:47Charge ebikes, scooters, and power tools

1:34:50outside and never block an exit. On a

1:34:53flight, keep it in sight. When on a

1:34:56plane, keep devices where you can see

1:34:58them while charging. Small actions can

1:35:00make a big impact. Be a hero every time

1:35:03you plug in. And that's how you charge

1:35:05into fire safety. Visit fpw.org.

1:35:09>> All right. Thank you so much. Um, and of

1:35:12course we brought our very own superhero

1:35:16with us tonight. If you'll turn around

1:35:18and check out Sparky, [cheering]

1:35:21the superhero.

1:35:23[applause]

1:35:25Sparky is going to pass out some um

1:35:29pamphlets, which you can also pick up on

1:35:31your way out this evening. It gives you

1:35:32good information on how to stay safe in

1:35:34your home with lithium-ion batteries.

1:35:37Um, now throughout fire prevention week,

1:35:41we will um be all around town and if you

1:35:44want to come out and see us, you go to

1:35:46apexnc.orgfpw

1:35:50um and you can find out all the

1:35:52different places that we're going to be.

1:35:53So, thank you guys so much for

1:35:54supporting us. We appreciate it. And

1:35:57please um look up this information.

1:36:00Super or charging can be your

1:36:02superpower. So, charge safely. Okay.

1:36:04Thank you.

1:36:04>> THANK YOU.

1:36:06>> [applause]

1:36:16[laughter]

1:36:33>> PROBABLY NEED MULTIPLE ROWS HERE.

1:36:38That's not

1:36:57[clears throat]

1:36:58>> We should go.

1:37:06>> [laughter]

1:37:17>> Fire

1:37:20>> prevention.

1:37:23[laughter]

1:37:25[applause]

1:37:46Where is it?

1:38:20All right, moving now to the public

1:38:22forum.

1:38:24Uh public form allows the public an

1:38:26opportunity to address the town council.

1:38:29The speaker is requested not to address

1:38:31items that appear under public hearing

1:38:32and scheduled for regular business. The

1:38:34new process, which was started in June

1:38:36of 2026.

1:38:38The current public participation policy

1:38:40states individual comments are limited

1:38:43to three minutes. The public forum

1:38:45comment period shall not exceed 36

1:38:48minutes or 12 individual speakers,

1:38:50whichever comes first. If the signup

1:38:53list exceeds 12 individual speakers or

1:38:5536 minutes per the adopted policy, the

1:38:59town clerk will prioritize the list of

1:39:01speakers by those who have not spoken in

1:39:03the last 30 days. After those

1:39:05individuals have spoken, the list will

1:39:07continue in order that an individual

1:39:10signed up until the 12 individual

1:39:12speakers or 36 minutes is reached.

1:39:15Individuals who still wish to speak will

1:39:17still be given the opportunity to do so.

1:39:19At the conclusion of the business

1:39:21portion of the meeting immediately

1:39:23before close session, speakers are asked

1:39:26to state their name and address for the

1:39:28record. They will see a series of light

1:39:30on the timer in front of them and at the

1:39:3240 45 second mark, the light will change

1:39:35colors to yellow. When your time is up,

1:39:38you will hear a buzzer and see the red

1:39:39lights flash.

1:39:42Tonight, we have seven speakers that

1:39:44have signed up for public forum.

1:39:45>> Thank you, Mr. Coleman.

1:39:48All right, we'll go ahead and call the

1:39:49first speaker, Andrew Buck.

1:39:59Hi,

1:39:59>> my name is Andrew Gluck. I want to thank

1:40:00the council and the mayor for putting up

1:40:03with me again. And uh basically what I'm

1:40:06going to two things make it very

1:40:08quickly. I just something I've read in

1:40:10this last week on a news article I read

1:40:13about how some rules were going to might

1:40:16be changed in the future which is

1:40:18basically taking away you all been

1:40:20elected to do certain functions but

1:40:22taking away one function from one

1:40:24elected official to me is basically kind

1:40:27of a power grab. If your person's

1:40:30assigned to do something elected to do

1:40:32something and that function is taken

1:40:34away it's it's not a right thing to do.

1:40:37It's like I'll compare you all to the

1:40:39president and senate. If the president

1:40:42makes an appointment that has to be uh

1:40:44approved by the senate and the senate

1:40:47disapproves, president makes another

1:40:49appointment. The senate cannot make that

1:40:51appointment. This is the way it is the

1:40:53way it's always been. This way apex has

1:40:55always been and that should not be

1:40:57changed. That's one thing I have to say

1:41:00and that y'all get what I'm saying. The

1:41:03other thing is I had something that was

1:41:05handed out. I'll make this real quick.

1:41:07You don't you don't have to read it now.

1:41:09It just uh basically I'll summarize in

1:41:11about 10 seconds. People who are against

1:41:14the flock cameras sponsoring and paying

1:41:16for these demonstrations and others are

1:41:18the same people are sponsoring the no

1:41:20kings pro protests anti-Is protests. And

1:41:24you can imagine why they don't want the

1:41:25cameras because they're effective. And

1:41:28that if you're against the ICE and

1:41:31against the king, people are committing

1:41:33crimes doing that and also assaulting

1:41:35people. They don't want to be seen. They

1:41:37don't want anything being tracked. So,

1:41:39and there's where a lot of the money is

1:41:41coming from. Thank you.

1:41:43>> Thank you for speaking tonight, Kelly

1:41:45Hughes.

1:41:54>> Good evening, council. My name is Kelly

1:41:57Hughes. as I let 45 Briidge Drive. I'm

1:42:00speaking tonight to express my

1:42:01opposition to the key use of block

1:42:02cameras and ARPRs as a whole Apex and

1:42:06not for the reasons just stated. I am

1:42:08deeply concerned regards of discerning

1:42:10information that has come out recently

1:42:12about Flock and how many times this

1:42:15company has been distrustful. Earlier

1:42:17this month, Boston cancelled his

1:42:19contract with Flock because Flock lied

1:42:21about the state of its data sharing

1:42:23across the nation. Okados Washington ter

1:42:26contract for civiliz

1:42:29Colorado. Flock told officials that

1:42:32federal agents had no access to his data

1:42:34and later amid having pilot contracts

1:42:36with the US custom border protection and

1:42:38homeland security that granted direct

1:42:41access to license plate data.

1:42:44This is just a small list of many

1:42:45examples. Every time flock blames on

1:42:47misunderstanding or inconsistency in

1:42:49communication, never once they admit

1:42:51wrongdoing. As residents of Apex, we

1:42:53trust our town staff to be honest, for

1:42:55forthcoming, and trustworthy. I believe

1:42:59the same standards must be applied to

1:43:01any third party we have contracted to

1:43:03assist with our town staff in this work.

1:43:06Their contact must be above reproach and

1:43:08flock is exact opposite of that. They

1:43:10have continuously lied to secure more

1:43:11funding and contracts with local

1:43:13governments. They have been deceitful to

1:43:15public officials like self across the

1:43:16country. That is simply not acceptable

1:43:19standard for technology that is

1:43:20monitoring and storing our personal

1:43:21data. I'm concerned about horror stories

1:43:23rising from the technologies flatout

1:43:25inaccuracies. To give some examples, in

1:43:27short, Arkansas, a couple with a new

1:43:30word had a gunpoint at them because the

1:43:33cameras misread the license plate and

1:43:35flagged their cars stolen. Likewise, in

1:43:38Morristown, Tennessee, a three-year-old

1:43:39girl was forced to watch her

1:43:40grandparents being held at gunpower

1:43:42after Flock misread a license plate.

1:43:44This technology is not safe. flock is

1:43:46not safe. I'm the expectant mother of

1:43:48twin girls. I love living in Apex. I

1:43:51look forward to raise my daughters here.

1:43:54I have a lot of concerns as any new

1:43:55parent. One thing I don't want to worry

1:43:57about is being pulled over with my kids

1:44:00in the car and being arrested because

1:44:01the cameras said I stole my car when I

1:44:04didn't.

1:44:05I do not have to worry about my

1:44:07daughter's safety and their data being

1:44:10shared or hacked because Flock is not

1:44:12safe and they are not right for Apex.

1:44:16I strongly urge you to terminate the

1:44:17contract in January and do away with

1:44:19ARPRs in our community. Thank you.

1:44:22>> Thank you for speaking.

1:44:25[applause]

1:44:29>> Sean Seph,

1:44:35I'm uh My name is Sean. I'm 16. I live

1:44:37in Apex and I oppose all forms of mass

1:44:40surveillance. The Apex City Council and

1:44:42Police Department decided to use our

1:44:44town's tax dollar to contract with

1:44:45corrupt corporations that install

1:44:47surveillance cameras. These flock

1:44:49cameras are just one of the latest

1:44:50gadgets in mass surveillance that allow

1:44:51for warrantless tracking of citizen

1:44:53movement in our town. This is a direct

1:44:55violation of Fourth Amendment. I want to

1:44:57draw similarities to the Russian and

1:44:58Chinese governments, which are notorious

1:45:00for tracking citizen movement to shut

1:45:02down freedom of speech and protest. We

1:45:04might already be seeing this. According

1:45:06to the Electronic Frontier Foundation,

1:45:08these cameras have been used to track

1:45:09the whereabouts of hundreds of

1:45:10protesters using their constitutionally

1:45:12protected right to political

1:45:14demonstrations. Also, there are cases of

1:45:16women being tracked across state lines

1:45:19for reproductive health access. This is

1:45:22dangerous, especially when there's such

1:45:23little oversight to their use and

1:45:24utility. For example, the Institute of

1:45:27Justice has cataloged more than 200

1:45:29known instances of abuse of these

1:45:31systems, such as illegally tracking love

1:45:33interests, ex partners, and so on. Flock

1:45:36cameras are not even that particularly

1:45:37good at stopping crime like they claim,

1:45:39with the Roseville Police Department in

1:45:40California finding there to be a 71%

1:45:43failure rate. Also, dozens of innocent

1:45:45people have been arrested and

1:45:47endangered. As previously mentioned by

1:45:49one of the other people, an innocent

1:45:51family, including a newborn, being held

1:45:52at gunpoint because the camera misread

1:45:54their license plate. So, for the sake of

1:45:57our freedom, please take these down. And

1:45:59we do not want to replace them with any

1:46:00of Flock's competitors like Axon,

1:46:02Gentech, or Motorola Solutions. Thank

1:46:04you,

1:46:07[applause]

1:46:10Rob. Done.

1:46:19Good evening.

1:46:22Hello. I'm here to speak against the

1:46:25flat cameras and for personal liberty,

1:46:28the fourth amendment, fifth amendment,

1:46:30and I believe it's the three the section

1:46:333.8 of the North Carolina constitution

1:46:36because that's the part of the

1:46:38constitution that says no, you cannot uh

1:46:40enter into contracts for perpetual

1:46:43reasons. contracts that are entered into

1:46:46for perpetual uh renewals.

1:46:49This is a word that's in the actual

1:46:51contract that is being considered that

1:46:55you all might allow to come into into

1:46:59effect. Um what you're basically doing

1:47:02is asking us to trust a company that has

1:47:05been pointed out lies.

1:47:08They lie about how long they keep the

1:47:10data. They lie about selling the data.

1:47:14They lie about it being secure.

1:47:17Every one of those statements has been

1:47:19proven false. Three men cracked into

1:47:22their system in less than two minutes.

1:47:26Fact.

1:47:28What was talked about earlier? I'm

1:47:31supposed to trust police

1:47:33when police can access across state

1:47:36lines

1:47:38the [laughter] numbers and the records

1:47:40of license plates of oh, let's say their

1:47:44ex-wife who ran away because they were

1:47:47being beaten.

1:47:49A police force in Texas

1:47:52happened to be accessing a lot of

1:47:54license plates records in Ohio because

1:47:58they could. And one of those guys

1:48:01happened to have a wife. He was trying

1:48:03to get back. That's safety. We want to

1:48:07allow our women, our children, our

1:48:10daughters, our wives

1:48:12to be easily tracked. I don't think so.

1:48:16I think it's an insult tonight to have

1:48:20honored all of these men and women war

1:48:24fighters, missing in action,

1:48:28prisoners of war, veterans, gentlemen in

1:48:31the American Legion,

1:48:33that we are honoring them for having

1:48:36risked their lives to protect our right

1:48:39to go home without being surveiled.

1:48:43They risk their lives for our rights to

1:48:46gather peacefully

1:48:48without having mobile cameras set up. A

1:48:52town pushing 80,000 25 square me 25

1:48:56square miles and we have five mobile

1:48:59flock cameras. And don't tell me mobile

1:49:03doesn't mean mobile.

1:49:05They can put that on a flatbed, roll it

1:49:07up and down any parking lot. roll it up

1:49:10and down any street. Now, that's why I'm

1:49:13against flock. It is anti-American and

1:49:15it is being backed by ultraright

1:49:18fascists like Peter Teal. Thank you very

1:49:22much. [applause]

1:49:28Can I say done?

1:49:40Hi. Uh, I'm Sasha Dunn. I'm 16 years

1:49:44old. I'm a sophomore at Apex Friendship

1:49:46High School. And I want to take this

1:49:48opportunity to participate in government

1:49:50as I believe all American citizens

1:49:52should and speak out against these flot

1:49:55cameras and this contract because these

1:49:58are being used as has been proven many

1:50:00times and has been spoken about today

1:50:03to be used for evil purposes. And I

1:50:07think that as American citizens and as

1:50:10people in general, we have rights. And I

1:50:13don't think those should be uh impeded

1:50:16upon by anyone, especially not a private

1:50:19company that doesn't have any uh

1:50:21restrictions on it and it has nothing to

1:50:24hold them accountable.

1:50:27And so that's why I'm against flop and I

1:50:30think that everyone here should be once

1:50:33they hear the reasons for it. So really

1:50:36that's all I have because everyone else

1:50:38has spoken about this already just

1:50:40because it's so important to us. Thank

1:50:43you.

1:50:44>> Thanks for speaking

1:50:48>> Robert Rose.

1:51:00>> Hi. My name's Robert Rose. I live at

1:51:032208 Kelly Road. I'm here to speak

1:51:06against the deployment of automated

1:51:08license plate readers.

1:51:10I've lived in the ETJ since 1984

1:51:13in the Apex community. It's always been

1:51:15a fine place to live. I can't vote for

1:51:18you all because I live in the ETJ, but

1:51:22I'm a concerned citizen and I hope that

1:51:24you consider what I have to say. Uh,

1:51:27regarding the automated license plate

1:51:29readers, um, everybody else brought the

1:51:32data for me. All right. Um, I don't need

1:51:35any data, okay, for this. I don't need

1:51:38any data to tell me whether this is

1:51:40right or wrong or whether it's needed or

1:51:42not needed, okay? It's just wrong. Um,

1:51:46this amounts to random government

1:51:48surveillance. And if we allow its

1:51:49deployment, I don't think there's any

1:51:51going back.

1:51:54Um, it's a line that shouldn't be

1:51:56crossed. particularly here in the USA.

1:52:00Thank you,

1:52:02[applause]

1:52:05>> Jennifer.

1:52:13>> Hello again,

1:52:15Mr. Mayor, members of the council, and

1:52:17fellow Apex neighbors. Uh, I'm Jennifer

1:52:20Bano. I live at 2715 Fort Fisher Trace

1:52:23in Bellacasa. I've stood before you

1:52:25multiple times to lay out the undeniable

1:52:27facts surrounding automated automated

1:52:30license plate readers. I acknowledge

1:52:32that when these contracts were signed

1:52:34and Flock was placed on our streets, you

1:52:37likely believed that you were acting in

1:52:39the best interest of Apex residents.

1:52:42It's easy to see how a slick sales pitch

1:52:45preying on public safety fears could

1:52:48seem compelling. But today we are at a

1:52:51critical decision point and continuing

1:52:53to entertain that pitch is a costly

1:52:55mistake for our town. The case against

1:52:58ALPR technology comes down to three

1:53:00fundamental facts. First, no one in Apex

1:53:04asked for this. Our community never

1:53:06requested warrantless surveillance, nor

1:53:08was it introduced through a transparent

1:53:10community-led initiative. Second, these

1:53:14systems are fundamentally unnecessary.

1:53:17Law enforcement in Apex and across the

1:53:19nation has operated effectively for

1:53:21generations without mass surveillance

1:53:23tools. And these systems do not address

1:53:26a real gap in community policing. Third,

1:53:29this technology actively increases all

1:53:31our vulnerability and legal liability.

1:53:34Rather than making us safer,

1:53:36centralizing our data, our daily

1:53:38location data creates massive cyber

1:53:41security risks and exposes residents to

1:53:44data leaks. Nationwide ALPR errors that

1:53:48have been shared tonight have already

1:53:50led to innocent people being wrong

1:53:51wrongfully detained. When a false hit

1:53:54inevitably leads to lawsuit here, Apex

1:53:56taxpayers will foot the bill, not the

1:53:58surveillance companies. Furthermore, the

1:54:01Supreme Court has ruled that tracking

1:54:02long-term movements requires a warrant,

1:54:05and leaders across the political

1:54:07spectrum along with hundreds of

1:54:08communities nationwide are actively

1:54:11rejecting the the mass intrusion.

1:54:15Apex is the peak of good living, not a

1:54:17town where residents are cataloged every

1:54:20time we leave our doorways.

1:54:22You have a clear choice between keeping

1:54:24these systems, swapping vendors, or

1:54:26ending them entirely. choose to protect

1:54:29our constitutional rights, eliminate the

1:54:32town's legal liability, and drop ALPR

1:54:35contracts altogether. Do not renew

1:54:38Flock. Do not switch to Axon. Give the

1:54:41citizens of Apex their privacy and

1:54:44rights back. Thank you.

1:54:45>> Thank you. [applause]

1:54:50>> All right. Thank you everyone for

1:54:51speaking. That closes out our public

1:54:53forum and we'll move now into public

1:54:56hearings.

1:54:58public hearing one. Mr.

1:55:02John Griffin,

1:55:04finance director.

1:55:11Good evening, mayor, members of town

1:55:13council. Uh the issue you have before

1:55:15you this evening is a public hearing on

1:55:17a $16 billion limited obligation bond

1:55:21that the town is proposing to be issued

1:55:23in the coming months. Um just quick

1:55:26overview of the process as it is. Um and

1:55:29back in July we started the process with

1:55:30the local government commission. Uh I

1:55:33have gone through the statutory steps to

1:55:35notify the North Carolina General

1:55:36Assembly of your intent to take on debt.

1:55:39Um the step we are at this evening is a

1:55:42public hearing and adopting an

1:55:43authorizing resolution that would allow

1:55:45the process to continue. uh on October

1:55:486th, we believe the LGC will approve the

1:55:52uh proposed issuance and then the sale

1:55:55would actually be conducted a couple of

1:55:56weeks later in October and we would

1:55:58actually have the closing on the deal in

1:56:00no in the first weeks of November.

1:56:03Just a quick overview of who is involved

1:56:05in this transaction. So, the town of

1:56:07Apex is the issuer. The North Carolina

1:56:10Local Government Commission is the

1:56:11regulatory entity. uh DEEC associates

1:56:14who work with you to do your long-term

1:56:16financial forecasts and financial

1:56:18modeling or an adviser. Uh Wombleon and

1:56:21Dickinson LLP is the bond council who is

1:56:24um doing all the legal certifications on

1:56:27it. Hilltop Securities is your

1:56:29underwriter. They are the same folks who

1:56:31underwrote your transportation bonds in

1:56:332023.

1:56:34Pope Flynn is their lawyer and then the

1:56:37actual uh US Bank will be the trustee.

1:56:39So they'll be the folks who actually

1:56:40hold the bonds.

1:56:43Um we're trying to stitch together a

1:56:45couple of projects into an issuance that

1:56:47we would be sufficiently large to get a

1:56:49good competitive rate on the market. Um

1:56:51prior budgets, you know, included Tonsl

1:56:54House, the Salem Streetscape project,

1:56:56the town hall renovations, as well as

1:56:58your capital improvement plan included a

1:57:00land acquisition for a future public

1:57:02safety station, which would be number

1:57:03seven. Um we're trying to combine these

1:57:06all into a single issuance.

1:57:09We're setting a not to exceed figure of

1:57:11$16 million uh in this resolution. Um

1:57:14they're preliminary figures. This is

1:57:16subject to change as we get to the

1:57:17marketing get to market um get our final

1:57:20interest rate bids uh amounts of premium

1:57:23things of that nature. Uh the projects

1:57:25off to the side um they have been fund

1:57:28some of them have been funded through

1:57:30either bond proceeds from the start some

1:57:32of them are transfers from the general

1:57:33fund. These are the total uh this does

1:57:36not authorize any new new expenditures

1:57:38on any of these projects. It might as

1:57:40the result as the bidding shakes out

1:57:41change some of the underlying revenues

1:57:43we used to pay for them. Uh right now we

1:57:45have a little asterric on an issuance

1:57:47cost of about $340,000 for what looks

1:57:50like is trending towards about a $15

1:57:52million and some change issuance.

1:57:56They would be advertised over 20 years.

1:57:57So the first payments would begin before

1:57:59June 30th, 2027. The final payments

1:58:02would be before June 30th, 2047.

1:58:05The average annual payment looks to be

1:58:07about a million dollars. It's funded

1:58:09entirely within your existing property

1:58:11tax rate model. So, the money collected

1:58:13in the CIF in the community investment

1:58:15fund would pay for this and it would be

1:58:17within your existing tax rate. It's

1:58:20being not being collateralized with your

1:58:22uh um your taxing power. It's a limited

1:58:24obligation bond. We're actually um

1:58:26pledging the town hall campus as the

1:58:29asset that would be collateralized

1:58:31against the loan. So basically

1:58:32mortgaging town hall. Um right now the

1:58:36estimate of principal payments over the

1:58:37period is about 14.6 million. We would

1:58:40pay about 7.1 million in interest. And

1:58:42so the total would be about $21 million

1:58:44to amortize this over a 20-year period.

1:58:47We think we're going to get some premium

1:58:48because you might have noticed said I

1:58:50was going to borrow 15.3. I think I'm

1:58:52only going to pay back 14.6. And that's

1:58:54because as part of the bidding process,

1:58:56some banks will offer us a little extra

1:58:59money that we won't have to repay. And

1:59:00so once we get through the interest rate

1:59:02setting, we'll find that. So the action

1:59:05today is conduct a public hearing and uh

1:59:07take a motion to adopt the approving

1:59:09resolution that is before you.

1:59:11>> All right. Thank you so much. Any

1:59:13questions, Mr. Griffin?

1:59:16one uh just a brief followup on this

1:59:19because I know that uh last year and for

1:59:22the last year I know that me and Mayor

1:59:24Prompy have been in uh finance uh

1:59:28committee we've talked about this. I

1:59:29know as a council we've had this pop up

1:59:32in several work sessions and I know it

1:59:34once again will be a conversation piece

1:59:37during our strategic planning session

1:59:38but I'm going to ask you to help out

1:59:40those who have not been following this

1:59:42for the last year. Why are we doing

1:59:45this? If you can explain it like a seven

1:59:47to like you're explaining it to a

1:59:48seven-year-old or I like to say a golden

1:59:50lab.

1:59:52>> Uh so the renovations we're doing in

1:59:54town hall will have a uh longer

1:59:57lifespan. The tonsil house once its

1:59:59renovations are finished. The Salem

2:00:00Streetscape is obviously going to be a

2:00:02it's a transformational investment in

2:00:04downtown. It's going to have a very long

2:00:05lifespan. it makes more sense to pay for

2:00:08these along the lifespan of people

2:00:10who'll be using them rather than, you

2:00:12know, trying to raid our piggy bank and

2:00:14pay for it all in cash right now

2:00:16probably be the best way to put it.

2:00:18Thank you.

2:00:20>> My question, I think we um the downtown

2:00:24streetscape

2:00:26project

2:00:27we already um but you know um approved

2:00:32the budget in you know uh June. It's

2:00:35already in our budget. Why we have to,

2:00:38you know, include this project again in

2:00:42this bond?

2:00:46>> It's a good question. Uh, I don't know

2:00:48what to tell you other than you in your

2:00:49budget, you said you were going to

2:00:50borrow some money for that project. Um,

2:00:52under North Carolina law, you had a

2:00:54public hearing on that budget and then

2:00:55you would actually have to have a public

2:00:57hearing on the actual act to go borrow

2:00:59the money as well. It's a multi-step

2:01:01process, I guess, to improve public

2:01:03transparency into [clears throat] what's

2:01:04going on.

2:01:06>> Can you maybe to help clarify that,

2:01:09explain the community investment fund,

2:01:11kind of the the the workings of the the

2:01:14CIF, right? And how the CI funds

2:01:17projects like these, right? You not just

2:01:19the Apex downtown, but you know,

2:01:21projects, you know, capital projects

2:01:23throughout Apex.

2:01:26>> Sure. Yeah. So, um, your your your CIF

2:01:28is a debt service fund. So, we're taking

2:01:30a percentage of your property tax levy

2:01:33we're putting in in into the fund and

2:01:35then we use that to pay down debts that

2:01:37are incurred by the town. So, you

2:01:39basically get kind of a revolving loan

2:01:41as loans come off, new loans come on.

2:01:44Um, so it allows you to kind of spread

2:01:47the costs over a longer period of time

2:01:50without needing to get into the issue

2:01:52of, okay, well, this is a new project we

2:01:53want to do. Now we need to do a tax

2:01:56increase to pay for it because you kind

2:01:58of have a dedicated part of your budget

2:01:59that is for borrowing money to fund

2:02:01[clears throat] projects.

2:02:03>> And so I think the key point just to

2:02:05repeat because you went through this

2:02:06pretty quickly is that this is already

2:02:08factored into the existing tax rate. So

2:02:10this bond or this debt application will

2:02:13not increase tax rates now or in the

2:02:16future.

2:02:17>> Correct. Yep. It's all within the

2:02:18existing numbers.

2:02:20>> You have I was just going to try and

2:02:22help with the bigger picture look. I

2:02:24mean the budget that you adopt is the

2:02:25plan of of what you want us to go

2:02:27forward and invest in and spend and then

2:02:30this is the details behind that. As you

2:02:32look at a budgetary as you look at our

2:02:34budget there are multiple funding

2:02:36mechanisms that back up that budget.

2:02:38This is just [clears throat] one way of

2:02:39us financing and paying for those of

2:02:42projects that were approved through the

2:02:43budgetary process.

2:02:45I'd like to add on the SIF. One of the

2:02:47advantages is um a lot of people are

2:02:49rightly very concerned about our our

2:02:52total debt and our debt servicing. And

2:02:54what the SIF is is a mechanism for us to

2:02:56basically save money every year. And we

2:02:59plan out we know exactly what our debt

2:03:00servicing is going to be. And therefore,

2:03:02we know what projects we can do what

2:03:03years. You know, so you know what you're

2:03:06putting in this if you know what you

2:03:07have scheduled on your your projects,

2:03:08how much that cost. So you you line it

2:03:11all up so you have enough money in this

2:03:13community fund to pay for the project or

2:03:16for the larger stuff to pay the interest

2:03:17payments on the project um and at the

2:03:20same time meeting the metrics that we

2:03:23have for total debt servicing uh and

2:03:25other financial metrics with the town.

2:03:27That stuff is very closely managed and

2:03:28this is the main mechanism and I think

2:03:30it's a really good um you know process

2:03:33we put in place

2:03:35>> what's our following reach.

2:03:38Uh so in the resolution it said is a not

2:03:40to exceed five and a half. Um we

2:03:43actually won't know specifically what it

2:03:44is until the pricing day which is in uh

2:03:46October.

2:03:48>> It'll be below five and a half.

2:03:49>> Below five and a half. Okay.

2:03:53>> Not too bad.

2:03:55>> And I guess the last thing I want to

2:03:56bring up or maybe you to explain for the

2:03:58public is the difference between a

2:03:59general obligation bond and and a and a

2:04:01law of obligation bond and why you vote

2:04:04for some bonds that you hear about and

2:04:05other bonds you see us talk about here.

2:04:07If you could explain that for people, I

2:04:08think it might be helpful because some

2:04:10people might be wondering why a bond,

2:04:12why are we not voting on it?

2:04:13>> Um, so

2:04:16the difference primarily with a limited

2:04:18obligation bond is it's basically a

2:04:20mortgage. Like you're pledging some real

2:04:22asset against it and you can do that

2:04:24depending on the size of the government.

2:04:26You can get um the best rate by pledging

2:04:29assets within a certain dollar frame. Um

2:04:32with a general obligation bond, you're

2:04:33actually pledging your tax rate. And so

2:04:35there is basically a threshold at which

2:04:37the projects are too large. Um it's too

2:04:40much to be borrowed. So the town has to

2:04:42put that to a vote. And so you know for

2:04:44in Apex's case, you know, that's five

2:04:47six times what we're talking about

2:04:49borrowing here this evening. So the idea

2:04:51is this is slightly this will get you a

2:04:53slightly better interest rate than a

2:04:54bank loan would. Um but the actual best

2:04:57rate would be requires to you know do be

2:04:59doing a lot more at this time.

2:05:02So I mean to summarize what is it true

2:05:04that then the general obligation bonds a

2:05:05lot larger that you vote for we're

2:05:07talking $100 million or whatever now not

2:05:09this is 15 16 and also we're legally

2:05:12pledging the tax rate to it. we're

2:05:15obligated to to raise taxes or whatever

2:05:18to pay off that debt,

2:05:20>> whereas here we're not.

2:05:22>> So, um educational purpose, right? Um

2:05:26can you explain why, you know, we have

2:05:29long-term fun actually is

2:05:33uh better than paying, you know, um

2:05:36immediately or shortterm.

2:05:39Explain.

2:05:40>> I mean, sure. It's just if you were

2:05:42going to try to do your capital

2:05:43improvement plan um solely out of the

2:05:46cash that's available to you within your

2:05:48regular property tax levy, you would be

2:05:50able to afford a lot less because you

2:05:53would be needing to pay for

2:05:54significantly more upfront. So by

2:05:56borrowing over a longer period of time,

2:05:59you can smooth out the payments and not

2:06:01need to collect all the money before you

2:06:03spend it.

2:06:04>> Um maybe there's another um aspect.

2:06:10So if we make it like a long-term bump,

2:06:13we can ask the future residents to

2:06:17participate. So to ease the burden on

2:06:20the current residents if we could put

2:06:23all the burden on current resident in

2:06:25the short term, it will be a lot. But if

2:06:27we make it long term, we have built

2:06:30residents always they're coming to

2:06:32impact uh Apex to share the burden. That

2:06:36may be another aspect. Right.

2:06:38>> Yeah. Right. because ultimately, you

2:06:39know, the the residents of the town in

2:06:41year 15 of this proposed bond um walking

2:06:44on the sidewalks downtown, you know, it

2:06:46makes more sense for part of their tax

2:06:48rate to go towards paying this off than

2:06:50have everyone who lives here now pay for

2:06:52it.

2:06:52>> Yes. Everybody shares the burden.

2:06:54>> Yeah.

2:06:56>> All right.

2:06:58Any other questions? I I'll just

2:07:00highlight if you go to page 77 of our

2:07:02budget document, there's a great

2:07:04explanation about you know you know

2:07:06types of bonds and our overall financial

2:07:09uh uh fiscal philosophy. So it it it's a

2:07:13great one pager. I know you guys did a

2:07:15great job of writing that because as I

2:07:16said if if I can get it as a lawyer then

2:07:19anybody can get it. [laughter]

2:07:23>> Yeah.

2:07:25I'll ask for that for Christmas.

2:07:28>> All right. All right. Any other

2:07:28questions, comments? All right. Thank

2:07:30you so much. We'll go ahead and open up

2:07:33public hearing for comment. We have one

2:07:36person signed up to speak.

2:07:56I'm still a senior citizen.

2:07:58I talked to a lot of senior citizens.

2:08:03They're all of the same opinion. They

2:08:06ain't got no more money. I ain't got no

2:08:08more money. I keep explaining this to

2:08:11you. You're coming up with a bond. You

2:08:14say, "Oh, it's great interest rate and

2:08:16future tax future residents will

2:08:20help pay into this." What about the

2:08:23residents that are going to leave on a

2:08:25county they can't afford to live here?

2:08:30This here

2:08:33is my discretionary fund for the rest of

2:08:35this year. That's all I got.

2:08:39That's it. Look closely.

2:08:43That's it.

2:08:45And I senior citizens that I know are

2:08:48either having to go back to work,

2:08:52thinking about going back to work,

2:08:56moving out of their homes because they

2:08:58can't afford to live there anymore

2:09:00because all of this stuff keeps getting

2:09:02raised. This went from a $12 million

2:09:05bond to a $16 million bond in like a

2:09:08month. Okay, bundle it, but don't change

2:09:12the name of it. is still spending a lot

2:09:14of money. And if you got money that

2:09:17you've got this little slush fund

2:09:21bond, you're going to think of things,

2:09:23well, we can add something more to that

2:09:26and they won't notice. Well, we will.

2:09:29We're broke.

2:09:31Give us a break. Senior citizens can't

2:09:35afford this. When are you going to cut

2:09:38the funds?

2:09:40Cut the spending.

2:09:42Cut out the food. We don't need food. We

2:09:47need the basic necessities and let us be

2:09:51able to eat.

2:09:53Social Security isn't going to cover

2:09:55what we're going to need to spend.

2:09:58Pensions aren't going to cover it. We

2:10:01need you guys to cut

2:10:05instead of spend. You can read the rest

2:10:08of my comments. I still don't understand

2:10:10his map because it ain't the same as my

2:10:12math.

2:10:14That's all I got to say.

2:10:16>> Thank you for speaking.

2:10:18All right, we'll go ahead and close

2:10:21public here for comment and it's back to

2:10:24council for discussion or possible

2:10:27motion.

2:10:31>> I'll make a motion to approve.

2:10:33>> Right, we have a motion Ziggler

2:10:36second. Second May pro Tim discussion.

2:10:41>> Okay. Um

2:10:43I just uh Okay. Um we have neighbors up

2:10:47right. I heard uh Karen right we have

2:10:50something not actually my uh the thing

2:10:54I'm going to say nothing related to this

2:10:57you know um voting. I'm just seeing um

2:11:00maybe we can help our seniors make um

2:11:05help them connect to the neighbor

2:11:08programs

2:11:10to you know

2:11:14just a suggestion.

2:11:17Yeah, we have lots of seniors um need

2:11:20help. We may we can find some ways to

2:11:24help them.

2:11:27>> Continue voting. Okay. Sorry to

2:11:29interrupt.

2:11:30>> Any other discussion?

2:11:34All right.

2:11:35All in favor say I.

2:11:37>> I.

2:11:38>> Oppose. All right. Motion carries

2:11:39unanimously.

2:11:44All right. Public hearing two. Reszoning

2:11:47case 26 CZ06. Apex light phase three.

2:11:53Joshua Killian. Amen.

2:12:02Good evening everyone. Joshua Killian

2:12:03here to present reszoning case 26 CZ06

2:12:07Apex Land Industrial Phase 3.

2:12:10Uh this resoning is in the northwest

2:12:12area of Apex along US 64.

2:12:16Uh this resoning is to facilitate uh the

2:12:19contemplated buildout of phase three of

2:12:22the Apex light industrial um project.

2:12:25The parcel is roughly 8.45 acres and on

2:12:28the site were a pond and a single family

2:12:31home that had been removed as part of

2:12:32the overall development. Um, as you can

2:12:35see here on this aerial, we've got phase

2:12:37one here where the buildings are

2:12:40appearing on this aerial view and then

2:12:42phase two here in the back. Uh total

2:12:45total in these four buildings we have

2:12:47about 459 almost 460,000 square feet of

2:12:52uh built space. And um there's currently

2:12:56only about uh 40,000 square feet of

2:13:00potential development under the current

2:13:02ordinance. And this ordinance would just

2:13:03allow an additional 30,000 square feet

2:13:05on top of the 40,000 to allow around

2:13:0870,000 ft of development on this parcel.

2:13:13uh the property that is currently zoned

2:13:15tech conditional zoning as part of

2:13:17reszoning case 22CZ21.

2:13:20Uh to the west and to the north are the

2:13:22same zoning of techlut conditional

2:13:24zoning. To the north as well we have

2:13:27this small piece of rural residential

2:13:30where there's currently a single family

2:13:32home and then a continuation of that

2:13:34rural residential to the east where

2:13:35there's also a single family home. To

2:13:38the south across US64, we have plan unit

2:13:41development, conditional zoning. Uh

2:13:42you'll know this site as the Harris

2:13:44Teter and Sweetwater and then plan

2:13:46commercial as well to the west of that

2:13:49um area where there's currently a

2:13:51landscape supply company.

2:13:54Uh the applicant is proposing to update

2:13:56a single zoning condition and retain all

2:13:58of the other conditions that were

2:14:00approved as part of 22 CZ21.

2:14:04Um, and that one condition states that

2:14:07the maximum square footage of uses

2:14:09developed on the property shall be

2:14:10530,000 square feet.

2:14:15Again, this is an additional 30,000

2:14:17square feet than what is currently

2:14:18allowed, allowing them about 70,000

2:14:21square feet of development on this site.

2:14:23The 2045 land use map identifies the

2:14:26area as office employment and commercial

2:14:28services. The proposed resoning to tech

2:14:30plus conditional zoning is consistent

2:14:32with that land use classification. The

2:14:34applicant conducted neighborhood

2:14:36meetings on April 16th and July 13,

2:14:392026. And those reports are in your

2:14:40agenda packet. Uh this resoning was

2:14:43exempt from meeting with the

2:14:44environmental advisory board. Uh but all

2:14:47all existing zoning conditions related

2:14:49to the environmental advisory board

2:14:50continue to remain in effect on this

2:14:52parcel from that 2022 resoning. Uh

2:14:56planning recommends approval of the

2:14:57resoning case uh with the conditions

2:14:59offered by the applicant. Um a

2:15:04public hearing was held by planning

2:15:05board earlier this month and they

2:15:07unanimously recommended approval of this

2:15:09resoning as well. And we find that the

2:15:11resoning is reasonable and in the public

2:15:12interest as it will um allow the

2:15:15existing conditions to remain in effect

2:15:17but also allow an additional 30,000

2:15:19square feet of non-residential

2:15:21development within an overall

2:15:23development that maintains all the other

2:15:26existing zoning conditions regarding

2:15:27buffers and other factors. If any

2:15:30questions I'll be happy to answer and

2:15:32the applicant is also here with the

2:15:33presentation.

2:15:34>> Okay. Thank you, Mr. Gillian. any

2:15:36questions for

2:15:37>> I do have a question and thank you for

2:15:38explaining the the map um because I was

2:15:42stuck on that a little bit. Um

2:15:45what uh what has changed between the

2:15:47previous resoning and what is

2:15:49necessitating the additional 30,000

2:15:52square foot that the applicants are now

2:15:54asking for. I believe the engineers here

2:15:56and can probably answer this better than

2:15:58me, but I believe at the beginning

2:15:59initial stages, they probably didn't see

2:16:01as much developable land on the site

2:16:03with there being a pond specifically on

2:16:05this parcel. After that pond was

2:16:07drained, the repairarium buffers were

2:16:09not there anymore. Therefore, it became

2:16:11a fully developable site. So, that's

2:16:12likely the reason, but the engineer can

2:16:14probably answer that a little bit

2:16:15better.

2:16:16>> Start an engineer now.

2:16:22>> Any any other engineers now? [laughter]

2:16:24Any other engineers? That'd be a good

2:16:26one.

2:16:28>> Uh, good evening, council, Mr. Mayor.

2:16:30Jeff Roach, Peak Engineering and

2:16:31Designer. Yes, I'm an engineer on the

2:16:32project. Uh, Mr. Zerman. Um, Joshua hit

2:16:35it on the head. Uh, there was an old

2:16:36pond on that parcel that was there. Um,

2:16:38and it's amazing how much square footage

2:16:40you can get when you have two really big

2:16:41buildings in the back. Um, each of those

2:16:43buildings is about 165 170,000 square

2:16:46feet in the back. Um, and that whole

2:16:48area was graded. We still meet all the

2:16:50RCA standards. All the um,

2:16:52transportation improvements are going

2:16:53in. you guys have been out there.

2:16:54There's signals going in now. Um, and we

2:16:57will actually be doing a new traffic

2:16:58study as part of the site plan package

2:17:00to make sure that the additional 30,000

2:17:02square feet um will be able to be

2:17:04handled by the improvements that are

2:17:05being done. So, it just happened the

2:17:07site laid out a little bit better. Um,

2:17:08and this area is actually bringing more

2:17:10of a retail feel to it. Um, it's not the

2:17:13light industrial tech flex use that

2:17:14you're seeing on the other portions that

2:17:16are on the aerials um that Joshua

2:17:18brought up. Um the front two are small

2:17:21smaller tech flex type uses. Uh the two

2:17:24big buildings in the back that you see

2:17:25that are gray now are standing. They're

2:17:27closed in. Those are more light

2:17:28industrial high bay uh truck dot type

2:17:31facilities. And this area up front is

2:17:32actually more of a retail field um

2:17:34that'll get more services to the area.

2:17:36So these folks may even be able to stay

2:17:38on campus, if you'll call it that, uh

2:17:40for their service. So, it really just

2:17:42happened to be that the layout with the

2:17:44public street extension through the

2:17:46middle of the site, the size of the the

2:17:47four buildings that are going in now

2:17:49really did help us do the layout on the

2:17:51smaller piece. So, I wish I'd figured

2:17:54out when we did our zoning in 2022 23,

2:17:56but it took me a little bit longer than

2:17:58normal.

2:17:59>> So, thank you.

2:18:04>> Any other questions for Mr. Gillian?

2:18:05Otherwise, we'll move not to the

2:18:07applicant.

2:18:10I have one question.

2:18:12>> Yes.

2:18:12>> And what kind of efforts the developers

2:18:16are making or thinking of making in the

2:18:20future in terms of improved traffic.

2:18:25>> I'll allow the applicant to speak to

2:18:28>> traffic improvement.

2:18:31>> Yeah.

2:18:32>> The engineer again.

2:18:34>> Still Jeff Roach with Peak Engineering

2:18:36Design. Um, so we are doing uh we're

2:18:39we're converting US 64 into a super

2:18:42street. We are adding a um and it's

2:18:44probably easier for me to show some

2:18:46pictures here.

2:18:47>> Um, so if you're coming, do you have a

2:18:49slide?

2:18:49>> Yeah, there's a slide.

2:18:50>> There's actually a slide.

2:18:51>> Um, Joshua, is this

2:18:54>> Oh, here we go.

2:18:56>> Um, so you can see this is actually uh

2:18:58looking westbound on US 64, basically

2:19:01right at the intersection with Goodwin

2:19:03Road. Um, this is Goodwin Road right

2:19:05here. um we are installing. So if you

2:19:07come come out of the site, it's make a

2:19:10right to go left. So you come down

2:19:13Goodwin Road, you hit 64 from our site,

2:19:15you make a right turn. There will be a

2:19:17traffic signal at Goodwin Road that we

2:19:19are installing now. It's almost

2:19:20complete. So you'll make a right turn,

2:19:22go towards Jordan Lake. You'll make a

2:19:24U-turn also at a signalized

2:19:26intersection, and that's what you see

2:19:28here on the left side, top left of the

2:19:29screen. That'll produce a U-turn that'll

2:19:32bring you back to Apex. If you're coming

2:19:34from 540, you'll be able to Let me

2:19:38Joshua, I think. There we go.

2:19:41[clears throat]

2:19:42This is a much better view. There's

2:19:44Harris ter in the top left corner there.

2:19:46As you're coming from Apex heading west

2:19:49on 64, you come down, you can make a

2:19:51right turn onto what's called Brute

2:19:52Street. That'll get you into the

2:19:54development. So, any of the vehicles can

2:19:56come back to either the Tech Flex up

2:19:57front or the light industrial in the

2:19:59back. The new development is going to be

2:20:01in this location right here. And I say

2:20:03the new um the phase three of the

2:20:04development will be here. All access

2:20:07will be internal to the site. They won't

2:20:09have direct access to US 64. There no

2:20:12additional turn lanes. Um we are doing,

2:20:15like I said, we're doing a signal here

2:20:16at Goodwin Road and then we're doing a

2:20:19U-turn signal for the Super Street here

2:20:21west of Goodwin Road to make the U-turn

2:20:23to come back towards town. Um if you

2:20:25think of what is right there at

2:20:27Richardson Road for Sweetwater, it's

2:20:29generally the same configuration with

2:20:30the U-turn setup. Um, so the traffic

2:20:33signal when we first did the zoning back

2:20:35in 2022 23, we didn't know if we would

2:20:38be able to get a signal. We had to go to

2:20:39DOT and basically beg them to let us put

2:20:41one in. Um, and luckily we were able to

2:20:43get it so to protect the trucks and

2:20:45vehicles coming out of our site while

2:20:47also, you know, protecting the people

2:20:48that are traveling high speed on 64. So

2:20:51I hope that answers your question. Okay.

2:20:54>> Thank you.

2:20:54>> All right.

2:20:58>> All right.

2:21:03Good evening, mayor, members of council.

2:21:05Leticia Shapiro, Morning Star Locker

2:21:06here on behalf of the applicant Vertex

2:21:08Square. Just wanted to just kind of just

2:21:10fill in the blanks a little bit um from

2:21:12what you heard and just kind of show you

2:21:14a visual. This is the these are the two

2:21:16buildings, buildings one and two of

2:21:17phase one. And where these buildings are

2:21:19at right now are we're uh going to see

2:21:22final CO in the next 60 days.

2:21:26And this is the uh buildings three and

2:21:29four constructed in phase two where

2:21:31there's a lot of interior work and site

2:21:33work that's currently underway and we

2:21:35should see a TCO in about 90 to 120

2:21:38days. And so again these first two

2:21:40phases um of the project we're able to

2:21:42create more usable um building square

2:21:45footage and that is why we need that

2:21:48extra 30,000 square feet. So just

2:21:51filling in the blanks. Thanks.

2:21:53>> Any questions?

2:21:55all the 30,000 square feet, you know,

2:21:59the additional Yeah.

2:22:00>> So, we have the 40,000 square feet

2:22:01that's left over. So, it's it's letting

2:22:04the flexibility of phase three have that

2:22:0670,000 square feet to work with all for

2:22:09um for buildings for commercial

2:22:12buildings.

2:22:12>> I'm not sure exactly what's going. Yep.

2:22:15Commercial. Yeah. Thank you.

2:22:18>> Thank you.

2:22:19>> All right. Go ahead and open public

2:22:22hearing for comment. No one to sign to

2:22:24speak. Is that council

2:22:29>> motion to approve?

2:22:30>> Motion gray.

2:22:31>> Second.

2:22:32>> Second. Reese, I heard first. Sorry.

2:22:34>> Vote to finish. [laughter]

2:22:37>> Okay, you got your second.

2:22:40>> You got the next one.

2:22:41>> Discussion.

2:22:43Hearing none. All in favor say I. I.

2:22:45Motion carries. Thank you so much, Mr.

2:22:46Kelly. Thank you.

2:22:53All right.

2:22:56Want to make a motion?

2:22:57>> Yeah, I I'd like to make a motion to go

2:22:58in close session to obtain legal advice.

2:23:00>> All right. Have a motion.

2:23:02>> Second.

2:23:02>> Second. Ziggman. All in favor say I.

2:23:05>> Carries. We're going to close session.

2:23:08Here we

2:57:19RA2 ordinance amendment chapter 12

2:57:21municipal utilities and services yard

2:57:23waste collection. Mr. John Mull.

2:57:25>> Okay.

2:57:26>> Good evening council mayor. Thank you

2:57:28very much for having me this evening. Um

2:57:30before you in your packet, you have an

2:57:32ordinance amendment uh requesting the

2:57:35removal of grass clippings from the yard

2:57:37waste uh ordinance. Um this is a service

2:57:41that families has counted on for a long

2:57:44time and I do not take lightly that

2:57:46we're talking about it. Um I'm John

2:57:49Mullis, the public works director. I

2:57:50want to be clear, this is an issue, this

2:57:53is not an issue that council created. Uh

2:57:56it is a recommendation that we've made

2:57:59lightly. This is a disposal capacity

2:58:02problem complicated by a shifting

2:58:04regulatory environment. Both of the

2:58:07realities of the regional market that we

2:58:10operate in. It's not something within

2:58:12the town's control to simply decide

2:58:15differently. It just is what it is with

2:58:17capacity. uh council has received a full

2:58:20briefing already and so I want to

2:58:22address key elements uh as to why staff

2:58:25is recommending this change and what it

2:58:28doesn't. Um I also want you to know that

2:58:31staff did not wait for this moment uh to

2:58:34start looking for a a a bigger regional

2:58:38answer. On March 25th, public works

2:58:41presented the proposal to the Central

2:58:43Pines uh regional council of managers.

2:58:47Uh and we highlighted the lack of

2:58:49regional yard waste disposal capacity uh

2:58:52and organics composting and the need for

2:58:55greater collaboration. Uh and the

2:58:58regional managers at that meeting voted

2:59:00to make this a priority project. Uh and

2:59:03so now uh effective I believe the 11th

2:59:07an RFP has been issued uh uh for a

2:59:11regional solid waste organics

2:59:13infrastructure assessment. So this will

2:59:15invite um specialist engineers you know

2:59:20to to find out where we are and what the

2:59:22opportunities are. Uh and it really um

2:59:27will take maybe some time to settle out

2:59:29but at least we're not alone here. uh

2:59:32the central pines would not be taking

2:59:34this up if they didn't see it as an

2:59:36emerging issue. And while we are are

2:59:40challenging it tonight, as contracts run

2:59:43out, as changes in disposal of, you

2:59:46know, composting change in the

2:59:48regulatory environment, uh we hope that

2:59:51the the central pines cog is going to be

2:59:54able to help with that. Um,

2:59:57but this could open up the door should

2:59:59you choose to eliminate grass clippings.

3:00:01This type of study could open up a

3:00:04longer path to get it right and to deal

3:00:06with it the right way uh and help us get

3:00:09down through the road with a you know a

3:00:11regional solution as opposed to trying

3:00:13to solve it alone. Now, first um for

3:00:17some framing

3:00:18uh across our town there are really two

3:00:21lawn maintenance practices.

3:00:24mulching where clippings are left in

3:00:26place and bagging where they're

3:00:28collected. So based on what our crews

3:00:31see, we estimate about 60% of residents

3:00:33are already mulching.

3:00:35That's rough numbers, hard to prove, but

3:00:38the best guess is that's probably where

3:00:41we are. And a large majority of those

3:00:44that use contracted mowing services are

3:00:46not bagging it. They're mulching it um

3:00:49and leaving their clippings in place.

3:00:50And so this isn't new. It's not

3:00:53unfamiliar and most of our neighborhoods

3:00:55are already doing it. You could look in

3:00:57your neighborhood and maybe everyone's

3:00:59bagging, but maybe every other one is

3:01:01mulching. You just, you know, it's just

3:01:03hard to know. Um, but bagging or or

3:01:07excuse me, uh, returning your mulch

3:01:10clippings uh to where they originated is

3:01:13really the most environmentally friendly

3:01:17action you can take. and it's really

3:01:19represented uh or recognized as more of

3:01:21the most sustainable methods of of uh of

3:01:24returning those nutrients back to the

3:01:26soil. What stays the same uh leaves,

3:01:30limbs, brush are still collected

3:01:32bi-weekly. Yard waste collection

3:01:34continues. Tonight is about one material

3:01:38and that is our loose grass clippings.

3:01:40Um, as you know, during your previous

3:01:43council meeting, you approved a contract

3:01:45with Liberty Waste, and they are here

3:01:47tonight if you have additional questions

3:01:48to accept everything but uh, grass

3:01:51clipping. So, we've got that covered for

3:01:53the next five years. Um,

3:01:56as I stated earlier, the honest reason

3:01:58is the regional disposal market that

3:02:00we've been navigating here in Apex for

3:02:03five years. So, we've contacted everyone

3:02:05we knew to contact every post uh

3:02:08composting operation uh utilized state

3:02:11resources uh and followed every lead

3:02:14available uh and even had our disposal

3:02:17partners check through their resources

3:02:19and actually people they're doing

3:02:21business with that kind of already do

3:02:22this type of business. every path led to

3:02:25the same answer. Um the simple answer is

3:02:28no nearby processor is willing to enter

3:02:31into an agreement. And these are two

3:02:34main reasons and I know you've already

3:02:35heard these but for the public grass

3:02:37clippings really require a separate

3:02:39process uh and it's the sheer volume. So

3:02:42grass alone the heat uh it is a fire

3:02:45risk. So um but the sheer volume is what

3:02:48overwhelms uh the processor. It is not

3:02:52about whether grass can be composted. it

3:02:54actually can. Um, it just really is

3:02:57about the capacity right now and no one

3:02:59nearby has enough. Um,

3:03:04the one thing about eliminating grass

3:03:07collection now, um, it helps our

3:03:09operation be a whole lot more efficient

3:03:13because you've if you've eliminated

3:03:16grass clippings and folks are mulching,

3:03:18you've taken the folks that are mulching

3:03:21are no impact to your system. it's the

3:03:24folks who bag the grass that's impacting

3:03:26our system across the the whole

3:03:28operation. So, uh if we get rid of that

3:03:32pain point, uh then we're we're much

3:03:35more efficient and the also the fact

3:03:38that um that we have now uh entered into

3:03:43a disposal agreement where we don't have

3:03:44to have a transfer system. We can direct

3:03:48hall because it's in the town limits of

3:03:50Apex. That is a tremendous savings when

3:03:53our trucks are really literally every

3:03:56mile $120 in fuel. It's unbelievable.

3:04:00So, the closer we can keep these worker

3:04:02B trucks to to dropping off their

3:04:04payload, the better off we are. Um, a

3:04:07fair question that I know that everyone

3:04:10uh wants to know. What's our peer

3:04:12communities doing? They must be solving

3:04:14the problem. Um, from what I've learned,

3:04:17uh, we have a situation where

3:04:20some municipalities already have a

3:04:22contractor.

3:04:24It's probably not indefinite. At some

3:04:26point, it will be renewed, extended. Uh,

3:04:30who knows? But that is one option. And

3:04:33the other one is just that um they hunt

3:04:36and choose wherever they can take it,

3:04:39you know? So there's no long-term

3:04:42u benefit. So, um, every community is

3:04:46different and they've made different

3:04:47capital investments in their

3:04:49infrastructure, whether that be a

3:04:50transfer yard, hauling system,

3:04:52composting operation. Um, but everyone's

3:04:56different. So, some posi, some

3:04:57communities are just, you know, simply

3:05:00positioned different than we find

3:05:02ourselves in now. And so, that's a fair

3:05:05distinction to make. So, it's not able,

3:05:07well, they're doing it this way and

3:05:08they're doing it that. Everyone has

3:05:10developed throughout the time their uh

3:05:13their process. Um again as I mentioned

3:05:16this is not anything council did. We had

3:05:18an agreement prior to five years ago

3:05:21unlimited everything you know and then

3:05:23that changed five years ago to where we

3:05:25were capped forcing us to have to

3:05:28backplay and find out where we could uh

3:05:30take it. So for us, accepting grass

3:05:33without a secured uh long-term agreement

3:05:36would mean risking millions of dollars

3:05:38of capital investment. You know, our

3:05:40trucks, our equipment, our whole process

3:05:42on a disposal arrangement that literally

3:05:44could disappear without notice. Uh so

3:05:47that risk is just something that uh

3:05:50staff is is just um not willing to take.

3:05:54So, we don't think that it's a good idea

3:05:56for a council to make decisions unless

3:05:58you can guarantee long-term disposal.

3:06:01Uh, you collect it, but you've got to be

3:06:03able to you just can't dispose of

3:06:05something that you can't get rid of. So,

3:06:08as I mentioned, Liberty uh waste earlier

3:06:11in the five-year multi- uh agreement

3:06:14protects investments through our CIP

3:06:16process. So, for every material type we

3:06:18collect, that's just part of what we're

3:06:20bringing this forward now. Staff needs

3:06:22this recommendation. so our planning

3:06:25process can take place. We can carry out

3:06:27your mission and objectives uh that

3:06:29you've uh provided guidance for. So

3:06:31tonight's recommendation to remove grass

3:06:33clippings from curbside uh effective

3:06:36January 1st of 2027 is what we uh are

3:06:41requesting action on. So to be clear, uh

3:06:44staff is not telling anyone how to

3:06:47maintain their lawn. That is not what

3:06:49it's about. Mulching or bagging is a

3:06:52personal choice. It crosses over into

3:06:55our realm though when we're collecting

3:06:57it without a place to go. So you can see

3:06:59the challenges and why we're making this

3:07:00recommendation. Um we will continue as I

3:07:05pledge to look for solutions. This way

3:07:08at least we have the opportunity to try

3:07:10to take a longer runway explore where we

3:07:13are knowing we've got the dis disposal

3:07:16covered for the types of material that

3:07:17we can take. Um, we're already reaching

3:07:20out to private contractors. Is there an

3:07:22interest in a a a service? And I think

3:07:25that that probably could occur. Um, but

3:07:28in the meantime, we need the action so

3:07:31our communications team can start

3:07:32outreach and um advancing of the

3:07:36upcoming mowing season with a special

3:07:38emphasis on mulching. Um, and I do want

3:07:42I've recognized that Dan Shields is

3:07:44here, but I also want to um have

3:07:46available for Dan to comment if you've

3:07:48got any questions, but we also have Dr.

3:07:50Grady Miller, um, our turf uh, Dr. uh,

3:07:53Miller from NC State. So, a lot of those

3:07:56I know we've had questions on turf and,

3:08:00you know, how do you do it in certain

3:08:01areas? So, we have that subject matter

3:08:04expert here for your a um your ability

3:08:07to answer uh any of those specific

3:08:10questions. Um so, this ordinance would

3:08:13take effect January 1st of 2027, giving

3:08:16our community a real transition uh

3:08:19window. And so, I would respectfully ask

3:08:22that you approve this ordinance

3:08:25amendment. And I'm also happy to try to

3:08:27answer any questions that you may have

3:08:29regarding this.

3:08:30Thank you, John, so much. I got a few

3:08:32questions for you.

3:08:33>> Okay.

3:08:33>> Um, who takes our grass clippings? Now,

3:08:36>> we take our grass clippings to a

3:08:38transfer site at Greenway Waste and

3:08:40they're hauled to Hornet County, a

3:08:43location called Bryant Grading.

3:08:47>> How much did that charge for that?

3:08:49>> Um, they they charge by the truckload.

3:08:51So depending on what if it's heavy, if

3:08:54it's light, it's in the $30 to $40 range

3:08:57just roughly for just the tipping. Uh

3:09:00and that is excluding any

3:09:02transportation.

3:09:03>> So that is from their site to

3:09:06>> That's right. And currently that is uh

3:09:09that is a um transportation is part of

3:09:14our existing arrangement that we have at

3:09:16no fee. So just the actual disposal cost

3:09:20is roughly $30 to $40 depending on how

3:09:22the trailer is loaded.

3:09:22>> So no fee for the transportation.

3:09:24>> That's right.

3:09:25>> Okay. All right.

3:09:25>> At the moment

3:09:26>> like green greenway trucks that are

3:09:27>> That's right. Correct.

3:09:29>> Okay. Cool.

3:09:29>> That's correct.

3:09:30>> And then this has come up from the

3:09:31community. Um

3:09:34>> you can explain it. How does some other

3:09:36communities have the cogle um grass

3:09:39limbs?

3:09:40>> Yeah.

3:09:40>> And all that. How does that work with

3:09:42what we're doing? So when we um in

3:09:46December 14th of 2023 when you we

3:09:49brought to you all the different options

3:09:53uh containerization

3:09:55containerization depends on what

3:09:57materials what goes in the cart is based

3:10:01upon what you can get rid of out of that

3:10:03cart. So uh the container is just the

3:10:07part that keeps it off the street that

3:10:08improves efficiency with the automation.

3:10:11It's not a question of I can put

3:10:14everything in it. It's a question of

3:10:15what you can get rid of and how they

3:10:17process everything. That's why we've

3:10:21worked to secure for the

3:10:23containerization program disposal and

3:10:26we've got that landed with the exception

3:10:28of grass, which means as we continue our

3:10:31path forward, uh if there was an

3:10:34opportunity to introduce that in that

3:10:37cart, that would be something we would

3:10:38bring back to council. But it just

3:10:40depends on the processor and uh there's

3:10:44there's not been any issue Dan could

3:10:46speak probably better than I but there

3:10:48hasn't been any issue with anything

3:10:50other than grass and so that's our

3:10:52problem uh component problem material

3:10:56final thing

3:10:58maybe more administrative did we speak

3:11:00to who we currently use now about

3:11:04long-term contract

3:11:05>> yes it is a family operation and they've

3:11:08been we've had conversations with them.

3:11:10They have not been willing to enter into

3:11:12the long-term agreement and uh that is

3:11:15something that we have insisted on

3:11:16because we just don't want to make

3:11:18capital investments if someone could

3:11:20just on a whim, you know, not be able to

3:11:23handle it. So, there hasn't been a a

3:11:25commitment to have a long-term

3:11:26agreement.

3:11:27>> And where's that long-term agreement?

3:11:28How do you define it? What's

3:11:30>> that long-term agreement?

3:11:31>> I think so. Because you're capital,

3:11:32you're going to spend a lot of money on

3:11:34equipment. So, you want to make sure

3:11:35you've got a place lined up to use it.

3:11:37So five years is what we we uh would

3:11:40desire.

3:11:42>> Thank you. Mayor,

3:11:45>> we go back to the coingling for a

3:11:47second.

3:11:47>> Sure. Sure.

3:11:48>> Holly Springs,

3:11:49>> correct?

3:11:50>> Where do they take the waste?

3:11:51>> Um I'm not sure. I think it's a place

3:11:53somewhere on 4042.

3:11:56Um I think it might be Duncan Landfield,

3:12:00I believe. Yeah. And do they

3:12:03do they separate it or do they just have

3:12:05a a dump which is grass?

3:12:08>> It would just be dumped. So So that's

3:12:09the thing. Um I don't know what their

3:12:11permit allows them to do. Um and that's

3:12:14where Dan can step in because he's been

3:12:16working closely with our state

3:12:18environmental quality. Um there's

3:12:21certain parameters of what you can do,

3:12:22what you can't do. And I don't know what

3:12:25again each facility is different on what

3:12:26their permits allow.

3:12:28>> Okay.

3:12:28>> And how much tonnage they can allow

3:12:31>> and the obvious question.

3:12:32>> Yeah.

3:12:33>> That provider.

3:12:34>> Yeah.

3:12:34>> I would talk to them and ask them if we

3:12:36could potentially coingle our waste as

3:12:37well.

3:12:38>> Yeah. There hasn't been a recent

3:12:40conversation because the last I heard

3:12:42that Holly Springs had their capacity

3:12:44wrapped up. Uh and again they truck that

3:12:47down. It's it's a far distance too. So

3:12:50that's the problem that we run into is

3:12:53the transfer site when you start taking

3:12:56trucks off the road to run them long

3:12:57distances. So when we start getting out

3:13:00into that Hornet County area or lower

3:13:02area, we have to be mindful of how long

3:13:05it takes to get there and how long it

3:13:07takes to get back.

3:13:10>> Say recent conversation.

3:13:13>> Had a recent conversation.

3:13:14>> Not with that provider. Not recent.

3:13:17>> Last year.

3:13:18>> Yeah. Yeah. We've we've been in touch

3:13:19with them last year. I think uh Brandon,

3:13:22I think you were by there what a year or

3:13:23so ago.

3:13:24>> Yeah.

3:13:27>> Is there a reason we haven't followed up

3:13:29with them?

3:13:30>> Well, no, not really. I mean, the bottom

3:13:33line is these are mom and pop operators

3:13:35that weren't interested in the contract,

3:13:37and I do not know if Holly Springs has a

3:13:40contract. Uh we can find out though if

3:13:42Holly Springs has a contract, but again

3:13:44it's a capacity

3:13:46uh issue at at these facilities. Uh Dan,

3:13:49I don't know if you have a relationship

3:13:52with that firm. I think it's in Duncan

3:13:54or

3:13:56>> Okay. Okay.

3:14:00Can I take you back to where you started

3:14:03the

3:14:05remarks with the central pines, you

3:14:07know, look at it as a emerging problem

3:14:10funding a study to figure out a longer

3:14:12term

3:14:14solution not just for Apex but for you

3:14:16know all communities in the area. Um so

3:14:21we are currently on a temporary contract

3:14:26with with uh what is it greenway waste

3:14:30correct to take our grass right um I

3:14:33also understand from your comments that

3:14:35they are not interested in a long-term

3:14:37solution or long-term contract at this

3:14:39point

3:14:40are they able to give us another 18

3:14:43months or so uh you know extension of

3:14:46the existing arrangement that we uh

3:14:49allowing us for that central plan study

3:14:51to complete hopefully potentially come

3:14:53up with a longer term solution that

3:14:55includes GL grass. Well, you know, they

3:14:58have us limited to 50 loads and the

3:15:00arrangement now

3:15:02they're not even doing really the 50

3:15:04loads, but they are an exchange letting

3:15:06us drop and then they haul. So, that's a

3:15:09whole conversation I think comes up with

3:15:10their other applications that they have

3:15:13before the town. So, it is a

3:15:15conversation that could be had, but it's

3:15:18not been with the current

3:15:21uh Brian, I may need your help on this.

3:15:23With the current action uh with their

3:15:26facility that hasn't been

3:15:28>> No, I'm not interested in what what

3:15:30request or whatever, you know, they want

3:15:32to build out. Um my my question is is

3:15:35simply we have a temporary agreement in

3:15:37place. It might be limited, but it's an

3:15:40agreement nonetheless, right? Is there

3:15:42an extension of that agreement, albeit

3:15:44short term, that will carry us, you

3:15:47know, through the central plan study,

3:15:49potentially a longer term option coming

3:15:51out of that that we can jump the

3:15:53bandwagon on, right? Because I'm I'm a

3:15:55little bit nervous about stopping the

3:15:58collections now, making capital

3:16:00investments that change our pickup

3:16:04routine and and how we pick up with the

3:16:06containerization and the trucks that we

3:16:07own for that. And now we're optimized

3:16:10for for, you know, one

3:16:12type of of function. We have cast out

3:16:15the the vacuum trucks and whatnot. And

3:16:17then if an option presents itself later,

3:16:20now we need to go back to maybe the

3:16:22older method, but we don't have the

3:16:23equipment anymore and we're looking at

3:16:25yet another capital investment to kind

3:16:27of, you know, kind of reintroduce grass

3:16:29clippings as a a component of our waste

3:16:32management system. So I'm I'm trying to

3:16:35buy us some time with the existing

3:16:37provider that we have, right? kind of

3:16:39see what we can get out of the central

3:16:40plan study because that seems to be the

3:16:42the elephant in the room right now. If

3:16:45other municipalities are on contracts,

3:16:48you know, that might also be running

3:16:50out, right? At some point, we all have

3:16:52to grapple with this,

3:16:53>> right?

3:16:54>> And so,

3:16:56what can we do shortterm, right, to

3:16:59allow that study to complete and await

3:17:01those results?

3:17:03>> Your options are very limited. Uh, I'll

3:17:05let maybe Randy speak to that. So, I

3:17:07want I want to speak a little bit to the

3:17:09the temporary agreement. Not saying it's

3:17:12out of that it couldn't happen. Um, if

3:17:14you'll recall when we continued this

3:17:16item months ago, we we said we wanted to

3:17:19look at vendors. We were working with

3:17:20Liberty. We were working with Green

3:17:22Solutions. Um, so [clears throat] we did

3:17:25talk to them and I think there was

3:17:26interest in extending and having a

3:17:28temporary agreement in place. Um, we

3:17:31didn't get a proposal on that and then

3:17:32it got a little more complicated as we

3:17:34went back and forth as to what it would

3:17:35take to get that. Um there was there was

3:17:38an openness to the concept of a

3:17:41temporary agreement, but it didn't

3:17:42materialize yet. Hasn't materialized

3:17:44yet. And then that's where it got kind

3:17:47of complicated on what it would take to

3:17:48get there and what we would be expected

3:17:50to do.

3:17:51>> You spoke to him Monday, right?

3:17:53>> Yes, sir.

3:17:54>> Did you ask them on Monday if they would

3:17:56extend their agreement?

3:17:57>> Yeah. So, we we talked about what it

3:17:59would look like moving forward and a

3:18:01temporary agreement having that in place

3:18:03first. Um and there was interest in

3:18:05doing that and then the subsequent steps

3:18:08are where it gets a little more

3:18:09complicated but there was interest in

3:18:10doing a temporary agreement. It's just

3:18:13then what do we do after that's working?

3:18:17>> And so I I I get that right, but but

3:18:20again if if all if if our objective is

3:18:22not to secure a long-term agreement at

3:18:24this juncture, but simply allow for the

3:18:27central price study to finish and see if

3:18:30there's another alternative that

3:18:32presents itself through that like you

3:18:35know more of a joint agreement instead

3:18:36of every municipality for himself,

3:18:39right?

3:18:41So, forget the long-term agreement with

3:18:43with with greenway waste right now.

3:18:45Like, can we just get a short-term

3:18:47extension if there's an appetite to do

3:18:50that at least to keep our options open?

3:18:54Is that an option? Like, is is there

3:18:56>> It's going to depend on if they can get

3:18:59a disposal agreement with where they're

3:19:02taking it because they're currently not

3:19:05composting uh on site. So there's a

3:19:08whole operational detail that's out of

3:19:10our

3:19:11>> I got that covered right now. We don't

3:19:14know what their agreements are and what

3:19:15their capacity is, you know, right over

3:19:18the next couple of years, right? So

3:19:20>> I mean can we at least ask that

3:19:22question?

3:19:23>> Yeah, that would need to go through the

3:19:24legal channels though at this this jump.

3:19:29That's why we have legal.

3:19:32>> I have um my question is are we uh I

3:19:36mean uh we are entering contract with

3:19:39DFL, right?

3:19:41>> Excuse me. With the trash and recycling.

3:19:43Yes,

3:19:43>> recycling. Uh not um the yard waste.

3:19:47>> No, we did receive a proposal for them

3:19:49and they were only interested in

3:19:51possibly carts. No loose leaf, no

3:19:55sticks. and uh honestly just weren't a

3:19:58lot of interest there. But we did

3:20:00entertain that option, but we never got

3:20:04to a point that I thought was going to

3:20:05be and they couldn't guarantee disposal.

3:20:07Uh their Red Rocks facility is not

3:20:09properly permitted. Uh they would be

3:20:12relying on the city of Raleigh and they

3:20:15have tried to reach out to the city of

3:20:16Raleigh again. Raleigh's looking after

3:20:18Raleigh and uh they do Morrisville and

3:20:22Windendale both of about 7,000 but they

3:20:25service on one day and the volumes are

3:20:26so low that Raleigh has not uh had a

3:20:30problem with it but uh the Apex volume

3:20:33is a whole different story. you would

3:20:35have to try to have an interlocal

3:20:37agreement and they would need to try to

3:20:39secure disposal and again uh if they

3:20:43can't do the whole program I don't know

3:20:45how we move forward without them having

3:20:47a willingness to do the whole program

3:20:49>> okay um so we are doing containerization

3:20:54starting 2028 right who I mean um who

3:20:59signed contract with us

3:21:02>> right yeah council gave guidance

3:21:04uh to move in that direction over a

3:21:07two-year capital plan. It was option two

3:21:09that we talked about. Uh so that would

3:21:12be all town provided service, which is

3:21:15where your dependability and service

3:21:16reliability is. Uh you're not relying on

3:21:19an outside contract. That's why we

3:21:21insist on having the disposal side

3:21:24worked out. And the other the other

3:21:26problem we have that we're facing is

3:21:29right now we've got two leaf act

3:21:32sidelined.

3:21:33uh they can't run anymore. We've run

3:21:36them, you know, all the way out. So,

3:21:38we're trying to get this transition to

3:21:41happen. So, we got a little useful life

3:21:44when we roll out to where they're just

3:21:46operating three months a year, four

3:21:48months a year. And again, the leaf act,

3:21:51the whole collection problem, grass is

3:21:54killing these trucks. So we're we're

3:21:56really no matter what we do

3:21:59capital-wise, there'll have to be an

3:22:00investment that we'd rather put in new

3:22:04the new model as opposed to the old

3:22:06existing model to keep us going. So

3:22:09that's a whole another dynamic too that

3:22:11we're facing with our capital

3:22:13improvement side is trying to move this

3:22:15needle forward. And that's why if we can

3:22:18eliminate grass now, we're fine because

3:22:20we have a disposal agreement for five

3:22:22years. there's just that one component

3:22:24that we hope people will get on the

3:22:26mulching bandwagon and it'll make things

3:22:29a whole lot easier for everyone if we

3:22:32can. So, we're trying to we're trying to

3:22:34solve that one component of yard waste

3:22:38that is a choice. Not again, we're not

3:22:41telling people what to do, but what we

3:22:44are trying to say it is causing the town

3:22:46a lot of headaches, a lot of problems, a

3:22:48lot of negotiations. If it were

3:22:50eliminated and we reintroduced at the

3:22:52right time, that's when that's where

3:22:54we're we're headed or what we're trying

3:22:56to achieve with this whole whole thing

3:22:58of eliminating grass. Now,

3:23:00>> I'm uh you know asking just I'm reading

3:23:03a email from resident.

3:23:06>> Please explain you know if

3:23:09>> um Gfl environmental collects

3:23:12containerized yard waste including grass

3:23:16in Morrisville and window ran out.

3:23:18Right.

3:23:18>> Yes.

3:23:19>> Residents in those towns put grass in

3:23:22the same cart as their leaves and brush.

3:23:26It goes to the fac goes to one facility.

3:23:30There is no separate grass disposal

3:23:33agreement. There is no separate grass

3:23:36you uh truck. It is one stream. The

3:23:40question is why Apex is treating grass

3:23:43as a uh standalone disposal problem when

3:23:49the containerized model is it is

3:23:53adapting does not require that.

3:23:56>> Very good valid question and one that

3:23:58we've asked GFL and GFL told me and I

3:24:01can read you right here. Basically, they

3:24:04service one day a week is 7,000

3:24:07households. Um, the tonnage that they

3:24:11had, I just got their report today.

3:24:14>> Uh, excuse me.

3:24:16>> Sorry.

3:24:16>> 7 7,000 households where

3:24:18>> in Morrisville they have uh 6700

3:24:22homes. So, GFL representative stated

3:24:25that Morrisville has 6,700 total

3:24:28collection points. uh and they receive

3:24:31bi-weekly service every Wednesday and

3:24:34they do use rear loaders and they use

3:24:36bags and personal containers. Uh and

3:24:39then the average tons is roughly uh four

3:24:44to five tons. So basically we have 7,000

3:24:47tons. Um I've got it here somewhere.

3:24:51Uh

3:24:53it's very low volume.

3:24:55>> Say four to five tons. Yeah, it's it's

3:24:58like per uh

3:25:03yard waste t is averaging roughly four

3:25:05to five tons per Wednesday run.

3:25:08>> So basically they're doing and I'm just

3:25:11going to say it's a 100 tons to our

3:25:137,000 tons. I mean the the comparison

3:25:17and so the reason that is is Raleigh is

3:25:19not paying that much attention because

3:25:21the volume's so low you know and they um

3:25:26whatever they don't do loose leaf

3:25:27collection in Morrisville it's whatever

3:25:29will fit the bags and do have a limit on

3:25:31bags but the the answer to your question

3:25:34and honest answer is that uh and I got

3:25:37this from GFL in Windendale which has

3:25:41more homes than Morrisville they did 365

3:25:46uh tons the whole year

3:25:48>> the whole year 365

3:25:50>> in in Windendale and that would have

3:25:53translated to Morrisville too. So the

3:25:55problem or the issue is we're wanting

3:25:57the same thing as Morrisville and

3:26:00Windendale but the volumes are vastly

3:26:03different and how they collect is vastly

3:26:05different and so GFL [clears throat]

3:26:07said that we they would only do

3:26:09automated side here. They would not

3:26:11offer reload service.

3:26:13>> What is our volume print?

3:26:15>> 7,000 tons

3:26:16>> a year.

3:26:16>> A year.

3:26:18>> Yeah.

3:26:18>> So, it's it's the household 7 7,000

3:26:22households versus 26,000 households. And

3:26:25then we have such an unlimited we've had

3:26:28an unlimited volume of collection. Well,

3:26:30now we're starting to do the excess

3:26:33collections which is going to help us

3:26:35manage that. But that is a valid

3:26:38question. But we are not we are not

3:26:40Morrisville. We're not Windendell. We're

3:26:41much larger than them. And then here's

3:26:44the thing.

3:26:48They could Raleigh could say tomorrow uh

3:26:50we're not taking your yard waste. There

3:26:52is no disposal contract that we're aware

3:26:55of in our local. I even checked with

3:26:57Barsville today. They're not aware. So I

3:27:00would not want to risk the town without

3:27:02a disposal contract because anything can

3:27:05happen at any time. And uh as far as

3:27:09what goes in the cart, I bring you back

3:27:11to it's whatever the processor can take.

3:27:15If the processor can take grass, that's

3:27:18that's fine. But that's just Raleigh.

3:27:21And I mentioned about how advanced they

3:27:23are and their technology and their

3:27:24investment. And uh

3:27:28the thing for Apex is if you were if you

3:27:30were able to get an interlocal agreement

3:27:33with them, there has to be a transfer

3:27:35station and a whole operation to get up

3:27:38there because you couldn't take the

3:27:38trucks off the road and run up there.

3:27:40Wouldn't be economically feasible.

3:27:42Whereas what we have now with securing

3:27:45the Liberty arrangement, we're right

3:27:47here. We got all the yard waste

3:27:49capacity. We were not capped. We have a

3:27:52very favorable rate that has rate caps.

3:27:55It's just the grass component.

3:27:57>> Can I ask you any part of the Liberty

3:27:59contract

3:28:01or is there a possibility that they

3:28:03could be a transfer station if some

3:28:05opportunity arises in the future for

3:28:08grass? Not take it permanently, but just

3:28:10how much room do you need for transfer

3:28:11station? Is it like five acres or like

3:28:14100 acres?

3:28:15>> I would it's I guess what it would

3:28:17depend on is the actual site, but uh you

3:28:20probably need I would say probably three

3:28:22acres at a minimum and equipment to to

3:28:25load and enough room for semiis to get

3:28:28in and load. So, probably three acres to

3:28:32do a transfer site. Uh but again that

3:28:35would be up to the the the owner if

3:28:39that's something they would even

3:28:41entertain because they probably real

3:28:43estate so valuable it would be

3:28:46hardressed for somebody I think to carve

3:28:48out three acres but and then it's got to

3:28:50be permitted properly too. So

3:28:52[clears throat]

3:28:53yeah

3:28:54>> um my question next question maybe um

3:28:58Dan Yeah.

3:28:59>> Yeah I need maybe you can answer. So uh

3:29:02right now you are taking our um yard

3:29:06waste like branches right like um like

3:29:09leaves branches

3:29:12um you are it's not containerized right

3:29:15>> correct

3:29:16>> so

3:29:17why you do not take grass clippings

3:29:21[clears throat]

3:29:21>> um Dan Shields Liberty Waste Solutions

3:29:23vice president of sales just wanted to

3:29:24introduce myself there and thank you for

3:29:26the opportunity to present um we cannot

3:29:29accept grass clippings as a waist stream

3:29:32period. Containerized, uncontainerized,

3:29:35it doesn't matter. Um, to accept the

3:29:38material, you either need to recycle it

3:29:40or have a a disposal outlet for it. Um,

3:29:44to recycle the grass clippings properly,

3:29:46it requires a composting process. We do

3:29:48not compost on site. So then the only

3:29:51other option is to send it to another

3:29:54disposal location. Um, and

3:29:57>> can you send it to another disposal

3:30:00location for Apex?

3:30:03>> No, we're not we're not set up and we're

3:30:05not equipped for that.

3:30:06>> Um, and part of it is also through NC

3:30:09state law in that, you know, yard waste

3:30:11cannot go into landfills. So, if

3:30:14landfills are taking it, they also have

3:30:16to have some sort of processing or

3:30:17separating capability on site. Um, are

3:30:20we considering composting? Are we

3:30:22looking at it? Absolutely. Is this

3:30:24something that's going to happen in one,

3:30:26three to five years? Likely not. Um, but

3:30:29you know, folks, if we could find a way

3:30:32to make this work and monetize it for us

3:30:36as well, we absolutely would. We've

3:30:38explored everything for us and for you.

3:30:41It just does not work in our waist

3:30:43stream.

3:30:45>> Thank you.

3:30:46>> Thank you.

3:30:54other questions for

3:30:56>> Yeah.

3:31:00>> Thank you. Thank you.

3:31:02>> Uh thank you, John. I don't envy your

3:31:06position. Um and thank you for uh taking

3:31:10on a hard

3:31:13challenge and uh and answering hard

3:31:16questions.

3:31:19My first question is you mentioned a

3:31:22minute ago or at the beginning of your

3:31:23presentation that that 60% of residents

3:31:26are mulching and you said you that was

3:31:28an estimate. How did you estimate it?

3:31:30>> Uh we ask our drivers uh they're out on

3:31:33the street every day. I've talked to our

3:31:35solid waste manager,

3:31:37>> our crew leaders, and we see what's on

3:31:40the street every day and you don't have

3:31:43piles every week on the street, but they

3:31:45go in the neighborhoods so frequently.

3:31:48>> Yeah. that that's a windshield survey.

3:31:50It's not scientific, but I think that

3:31:53you will find some neighborhoods

3:31:56uh mulch and some bag.

3:32:00>> But why I mean that that's not um

3:32:03>> yeah,

3:32:04>> that's not just because I'm in the mood

3:32:06or because uh it's my inclination,

3:32:10>> right?

3:32:10>> It's likely my grass. It's likely the

3:32:13amount of um the number of trees I have.

3:32:15It's likely the the shade I have and the

3:32:18angle of my house.

3:32:19>> Would you mind coming up, Dr. Miller? Uh

3:32:24>> we are of the opinion, you know, the

3:32:27>> we don't know what residents behavior

3:32:30are.

3:32:30>> Yeah.

3:32:30>> We just know that that

3:32:34>> there are people that are

3:32:35environmentally conscious and they're

3:32:37not want to bag it.

3:32:38>> Yeah.

3:32:38>> Now, I'm gonna have to ask him for his

3:32:40opinion on that.

3:32:42>> Oh, okay. Go ahead. I don't know what I

3:32:44asked that. Thank you, doctor. Um,

3:32:46what's the what question did I have that

3:32:48was?

3:32:48>> Yeah. About uh people may have shaded

3:32:51trees.

3:32:51>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

3:32:52>> I mean, there are differences in species

3:32:54or cultivars and how quickly they break

3:32:57down.

3:32:58>> Yeah. There's not a good reason about

3:33:00where I was about to head. Go ahead.

3:33:01>> There's not a good reason not to return

3:33:02those clippings.

3:33:04>> I'm sorry.

3:33:05>> There's not a good reason not to return

3:33:07those clippings.

3:33:08um environmentally speaking, if I have

3:33:11as much time as I please uh as a yard um

3:33:16afficionado, right? But I mean, I'm

3:33:18talking if I'm a dad and I'm working and

3:33:21I am trying to get my kids places and

3:33:24I'm trying to get the groceries and all

3:33:25the other things like that and I've got

3:33:26one slot on my Saturday afternoon and it

3:33:28rains. Um now I'm waiting to mow. My

3:33:33question though is is like what kind of

3:33:36um iteration are we talking about for

3:33:39and what grass species is mulching

3:33:42appropriate for?

3:33:45>> Uh the the worst as far as about leaving

3:33:47clippings on the surface is zoya grass.

3:33:49>> I'm sorry sir

3:33:49>> is zoyer grass.

3:33:50>> Thank you. And I was going to say so

3:33:52thank you. That's what I was talking

3:33:53>> is the worst but there's still I I have

3:33:54zoya grass. I've never

3:33:56>> Yes, sir.

3:33:56>> collected my clippings in 13 years. Um,

3:34:03>> you may have to mow more frequently.

3:34:04>> Thank you. So, there you go. That's what

3:34:05I was going to say.

3:34:06>> Or you may have to mow more than more

3:34:08than once occasionally. But

3:34:11>> you have an entire incredibly difficult

3:34:14challenge on your hands. I think I'm

3:34:16about to make everybody unhappy.

3:34:18>> I think eventually we got to rip the

3:34:20band-aid off. This stuff isn't good. Um,

3:34:23yard maintenance is a thing that I think

3:34:26is going to be a thing of the past in 20

3:34:28years. Um, and uh, as we rewse other

3:34:33things, in the meantime, I have um, a

3:34:37job to do where I'm hearing from

3:34:38residents over and over and over and

3:34:41over. I don't have another time to mow.

3:34:45I don't have, oh, well, I guess I've got

3:34:47to do it Saturday and now Wednesday to

3:34:49ensure that my yard and if you don't

3:34:52mind me pointing to uh, you look like

3:34:54you need to say something. Go ahead.

3:34:55>> No, I'm thinking it it's rare to need to

3:34:57have to pick up clippings. I'm sorry,

3:34:58sir.

3:34:58>> It would be very rare that you would

3:35:00need to pick up clippings.

3:35:01>> Okay.

3:35:03>> Maybe once or twice a year if you felt

3:35:05like you were having an excess on the

3:35:07surface. Generally, that's not an issue.

3:35:10>> I believe you from your expertise.

3:35:13>> I don't

3:35:15feel like that reflects the residents

3:35:17who I've actually gone out

3:35:19>> and visited with folks who say, "Let me

3:35:22look at I I work on my yard. I do my

3:35:24best. I'm trying to get the kids

3:35:26everywhere and keep my job, right? And

3:35:29I've got this time uh to mow and let me

3:35:32show you the parts of my yard that I'm

3:35:34having a difficult time keeping up to

3:35:37the standards of my HOA

3:35:39to legally be within compliance.

3:35:43Here's the areas where my yard is not

3:35:46disintegrating. The thatch is not

3:35:47disintegrating. It is rotting. It is

3:35:50mold moldy. So when I hear just mow

3:35:54another time, I'm talking to residents

3:35:58who don't have another hour to mow. So

3:36:02what would we say to those folks?

3:36:06There's other technologies, different

3:36:08mower blades,

3:36:10uh raising mowing heights, less

3:36:12irrigation, less fertilization. There's

3:36:14a lot of management practices that

3:36:16influence growth rate.

3:36:18Um

3:36:19>> thank you. I appreciate it.

3:36:22The next I was going to go back to John

3:36:24if you don't mind.

3:36:26>> Yes.

3:36:27>> Um and again this is talking with

3:36:30residents who are trying to comply with

3:36:32their HOAs and ensure that they are not

3:36:35going to face penalties, fines, and

3:36:38perhaps even more um that HOAs have uh

3:36:42uh incredible legal power in the state

3:36:44of North Carolina. But I digress. Um

3:36:48that is what I'm hearing is is

3:36:52I would love to mulch.

3:36:54I would love to have more time to mow,

3:36:57but that's not the resident experience.

3:37:00That seems to be um yes, anecdotal, but

3:37:03a trend um and a significant trend. I've

3:37:06had uh the next thing I was going to ask

3:37:08is is um could you talk a little bit

3:37:11about your conversations with the vendor

3:37:14really clean streets?

3:37:16>> Yes. Uh they are a part supplier.

3:37:19Um, let me get my note because I was

3:37:22prepared for that.

3:37:23>> Yeah, I know. It was the memo that was

3:37:24sent to us by a resident. I feel like I

3:37:26just

3:37:27>> um

3:37:27>> asked the question.

3:37:28>> I'm just going to read this because I

3:37:30prepared it. That way I won't miss

3:37:31anything. Um, our fleet manager received

3:37:34an email because we buy parts from

3:37:37really good equipment and uh he had

3:37:40heard about the the grass and all and he

3:37:43reached out.

3:37:43>> I looked up the website. It didn't look

3:37:45like it, but I just wanted to make sure.

3:37:46I just wanted to because here's what

3:37:48>> if you don't mind. What I'm trying to do

3:37:50is dot every eye and cross every te.

3:37:52>> I appreciate that

3:37:53>> and but what I'm not I don't know that

3:37:55I'm able to go tell residents that we as

3:37:58a town have dotted every eye and crossed

3:38:00every tea.

3:38:01>> And so that is the question that I have.

3:38:04>> So I don't know if if it was in in the

3:38:06thing, but I responded 11 minutes to the

3:38:10email that Bill forwarded because I

3:38:11wasn't on the original email and I said,

3:38:13"Oh, great." You know, I thought it was

3:38:15odd. It was coming from a person we buy

3:38:17impeller blades from, but then I found

3:38:20out really keen clean streets is a

3:38:22subsidiary. And I can tell you how all

3:38:24that happened. But just to answer your

3:38:26question, um I I sent them an email. Oh,

3:38:31great. List give me your list of people

3:38:33you're doing business with. Give me a

3:38:36list of what disposal facilities you're

3:38:37using. and I got back, well, we serve

3:38:40350,000,

3:38:42uh, residents in Virginia, whatever, and

3:38:45there was no disposal facility on there.

3:38:47So, uh, I reached back out and actually

3:38:51called him yesterday. What they did,

3:38:54they had a community that, uh, because

3:38:56they build vacuum equipment, they had a

3:38:58community that said, "Hey, will you come

3:39:00and contract our leaves?" So, they

3:39:02started really clean streets and you saw

3:39:04on their website. Now, I called them

3:39:08today, as a matter of fact, and Bill's

3:39:10spoken with them, too, to find out

3:39:11everything you do.

3:39:13>> We can do anything you're willing to pay

3:39:15us to do.

3:39:16>> Yeah.

3:39:16>> Uh we have 45 foot trailers. We can go

3:39:19find a farmer somewhere that'll take it.

3:39:21We can haul it away. Uh so, they have

3:39:24started a a business, but they have no

3:39:26North Carolina footprint. Uh as far as a

3:39:29relationship to carry, best I can tell,

3:39:32they sell carry parts. So, it was not

3:39:35credible at all. Could you consult with

3:39:39them or they could come look at what

3:39:40you've got and but they're not a

3:39:43door-todoor curbside. They do leaves

3:39:46though. All fairness, they do leaves in

3:39:48Virginia, but it it is not a GFL to

3:39:5226,000 households on a weekly basis and

3:39:55picking up sticks and everything else

3:39:58and carbs. But we did we did follow that

3:40:00lead.

3:40:01>> Appreciate it, John.

3:40:02>> Thank you.

3:40:02>> Thank you. Yeah. And I did just want to

3:40:05follow

3:40:06boy, it's like you've got half the

3:40:08burden and I've got half the burden.

3:40:11We're here to try to tell you what we're

3:40:12having operationally.

3:40:14You're there hearing from residents. So,

3:40:17it then becomes at what level of policy

3:40:21that that council wants to to help the

3:40:24residents that make a choice to bag. I

3:40:26mean, it we we don't have a place for

3:40:28it. You as your constituents want you to

3:40:32take it. Where's the happy median? How

3:40:34do we balance that? What we hope is we

3:40:37can encourage mulching. We can leverage

3:40:39Dr. Miller's expertise. We can try to

3:40:42get people to try it. Uh sciencewise, we

3:40:48think all grasses can be mulched, but

3:40:50it's a maintenance issue and people have

3:40:52time. So, that's something I can't help

3:40:54them with. And I get it. It is not easy.

3:40:57But I'm hoping if we structure it right

3:41:00and we get we keep the program viable,

3:41:04we purchase the equipment that we plan

3:41:05on purchasing, find that outlet where we

3:41:09can introduce it if it makes economic

3:41:10sense and we can help those residents.

3:41:13Uh but we just don't have that

3:41:15opportunity right now with where we are

3:41:17and we've been trying for five years. So

3:41:19it's challenging. It's tough. I mean we

3:41:21we just we're worried about what's next

3:41:23when we load it up on the truck. Now

3:41:25we're almost into leaf season and we

3:41:27have the agreement now with Liberty so

3:41:30they can take the leaves as soon as the

3:41:32grass is finished. So now it's about the

3:41:34timing of communication and will

3:41:36something surface. And uh as far as

3:41:41Central Pines and the study, we're

3:41:42excited they're doing it. We don't know

3:41:45how long it'll be fruitful or how long

3:41:46it'll take, but it will at least tell us

3:41:49there there might be something, you

3:41:51know, coming. But in the meantime, we've

3:41:53got curbside program that has wore out

3:41:57equipment and we're trying to

3:41:58transition. So, we got to figure it out.

3:42:00We think the best choice is to

3:42:04operationally, not constituent wise, we

3:42:07think the best choice right now,

3:42:09eliminate grass until we're ready to

3:42:10take it. And we can't take it.

3:42:15>> Extremely hard.

3:42:16>> It is.

3:42:16>> We are all trying here.

3:42:19>> Yeah. you know, to leave no stone

3:42:21unturned to try to find a solution.

3:42:24>> Yeah. Thank you for all the hard work.

3:42:25>> I I I have been in your position for a

3:42:28little bit of time and I've been elected

3:42:29for a little bit of time. I try to put

3:42:32myself in your position. If you

3:42:34remember, I told you this is going to be

3:42:37hard. And it was hard. And we keep

3:42:40hoping over here something's going to

3:42:41surface. But um

3:42:46there's too many whatifs on other

3:42:49disposal options right now. Too many

3:42:51things to work on. If we could have a

3:42:53clean slate to work on, that issue is

3:42:56grass. If we can get that dealt with now

3:43:00and bring it back the right way, that

3:43:02would be a godsend for our our program.

3:43:05>> So, I I appreciate that. I I just don't

3:43:08>> Yeah,

3:43:09>> I guess um I just want to make sure I'm

3:43:12hear you correctly. If we go if we say

3:43:14we're we're doing away with it and then

3:43:16later down the road reintroduce it, how

3:43:17does that work?

3:43:18>> If we found any solution that takes that

3:43:22in that makes sense, we're coming back

3:43:23to council. If we have containers and it

3:43:28can go in the containers, we've come

3:43:30back to council, you'd already have your

3:43:31containers. I mean, I would hope that if

3:43:36we as a town are doing it, it's going to

3:43:38be in a container. It's not going to be

3:43:40multiple containers, but there has to be

3:43:42that processing capability in the whole

3:43:45composting world for that to work. And

3:43:48that's the challenge. Now, if you have a

3:43:51private contractor that can just take

3:43:53grass alone, whether they do it in a bag

3:43:56or however they collect it, and the

3:43:59customer is willing to pay for that

3:44:00service, I'm sure it'd be expensive, but

3:44:02it's expensive for us. I mean, it's

3:44:04going to be expensive either way you

3:44:05handle it, uh, at least what we have

3:44:07now, and it's not as expensive as grass,

3:44:09but we would bring that back. We're not

3:44:12going to stop looking for a solution. I

3:44:13think you heard Dan mention, they know

3:44:16that we're on them. Hey, can you help

3:44:18us? uh they work with the state

3:44:23I believe you have a you know just

3:44:25recently um the state organics group is

3:44:30aware of this issue but it's not going

3:44:33to happen overnight and and we've just

3:44:35run out of time I mean I've been trying

3:44:37for I was trying a year before I got

3:44:40here and I was the one that helped y'all

3:44:42deal with it when you first got told

3:44:45we're done 50 loads and we've been over

3:44:48backwards to help the town and here I am

3:44:50five years later and we haven't moved

3:44:52the needle. That speaks volumes.

3:44:55>> Last question. So, is there a model out

3:44:57there that you suck everything out that

3:44:58you don't have the headaches from town

3:45:00staff?

3:45:01>> Do you have what now?

3:45:02>> Is there a model that you can sub it all

3:45:03out?

3:45:04>> Is there a model to what?

3:45:06>> Sub everything out.

3:45:08>> Yeah. I don't know of one based on our

3:45:11current program. In other words, you've

3:45:14got excess piles, you've got

3:45:16containerized, you've got vacuum. Uh

3:45:19you're not finding anyone out there that

3:45:21does it all. Even your big providers

3:45:23don't do it all. We've got such a unique

3:45:26model. That's why it's almost imperative

3:45:28that the town do the program if you have

3:45:30a program. Now, remember, you're not

3:45:33statutoily required to have this

3:45:35program. That's why when we talk about

3:45:37grass, is it really does a town really

3:45:40want to step into that realm when it's

3:45:42not statutoily required and it's not

3:45:44trash? Is yeah, that's a policy

3:45:47decision, not not me. But um I am

3:45:49unaware of anybody that will do it all.

3:45:52And GFL was very clear. We'll do carts

3:45:55and that's it. So how do you coordinate

3:45:57the other because there's a synergy in

3:45:59the field in the operations. our grapple

3:46:02truck sees a pile and radios our other

3:46:06team. I mean, it's it's a it's an organ.

3:46:08It's an operation that we're

3:46:10communicating. So, when you try to do

3:46:12one oneoffs here and there, it's just

3:46:14probably not going to save you any money

3:46:15and probably going to lead to residents

3:46:17dissatisfaction.

3:46:19Uh but um I'm not aware of of that

3:46:23program.

3:46:25>> John, thanks so much for the work on

3:46:27this. I remember back in June of 2022

3:46:31when you brought this up, I remember

3:46:33first one of the first issues I dealt

3:46:34with when I got on council was the issue

3:46:36of a compost pile and how we're going to

3:46:39deal with our disposal of yard waste and

3:46:44>> to say that we are still wrestling with

3:46:46this issue um you know things that

3:46:48aren't changing just to make clear

3:46:50what's happening here is you know are

3:46:52you know the the branches the leaves

3:46:56that stuff We're not we're not talking

3:46:58about that.

3:46:58>> Right. Correct.

3:46:59>> We're talking about the grasses. Grasses

3:47:02have to be treated differently because

3:47:03of chemicals and fertilizers and stuff

3:47:05like that.

3:47:07>> You know, we could we know Raleigh can

3:47:10take it or take does their own thing,

3:47:12but relying upon them, especially when

3:47:15they're running out of space seems like

3:47:17a full fool's errand. Then we've got the

3:47:20option of essentially looking for some

3:47:22other places out there. And it sounds

3:47:24like you, you know, we you've been

3:47:26kicking this, we've been kicking around

3:47:27this for a while.

3:47:29>> Um, you know, and this is, I mean, I

3:47:31mean, every single one of us is impacted

3:47:33by this, you know, I know that every one

3:47:35of us has heard, you know, whether

3:47:37directly, indirectly, via email,

3:47:39conversations, walking a dog, you know,

3:47:41grasses, uh, you know, we've had a lot

3:47:44of conversations about grass and it's

3:47:45not marijuana.

3:47:46>> Yeah.

3:47:47>> Yeah. So, it's been a it's been a

3:47:49dominant conversation, but I I will say

3:47:51that the part that I think you

3:47:54summarized it when we had our work

3:47:56session was you can't collect it if you

3:47:58don't have a place to put it.

3:48:00>> What we're worried about and that's the

3:48:02part that it seems as our our limiting

3:48:04factor. We don't have a place to put

3:48:09>> I [clears throat] want more data, John.

3:48:11Um, the problem that I have now is

3:48:13trying to keep this all in my head is

3:48:15that we get reports when you're doing

3:48:16presentations and we ask about this

3:48:17provider, that provider. You know, what

3:48:19does they do? You know, it's not all in

3:48:21one spot. So, I'm unable to articulate a

3:48:24convincing argument to everyone. I

3:48:26really, what I really want I'm kind of

3:48:27charting it out here, but just a table

3:48:29of the cities

3:48:32>> of what their yard waist grass policy

3:48:34is, you know, bag carts on curb, who do

3:48:38they use to do it? uh do they have a

3:48:40contract or not? What's their annual

3:48:43volume? And then the critical final

3:48:45column, why can't Apex do exactly what

3:48:47they do?

3:48:48>> And then with this table of all 12

3:48:49municipalities

3:48:51and 12 reasons, you know, then that

3:48:54would answer 90% 95% of the questions.

3:48:57Right now, it's like I kind of remember

3:48:59what you said about Raleigh. What does

3:49:00Holly Springs do? I don't really know.

3:49:02Carrie uses GFL or something. I I don't

3:49:04really, you know, it's hard to get all

3:49:05together. So, people ask stuff like,

3:49:06"Why don't you just do that?"

3:49:08It's hard because people, some people

3:49:11love the service and they want a

3:49:13straight answer to why it seems so

3:49:14obvious. Why can't you just do what our

3:49:16neighbors do? And you have good answers.

3:49:18It's like, you know, the the point about

3:49:19Morrisville being what was it? 170th of

3:49:22our volume. That's pretty compelling.

3:49:24That makes sense. Yeah.

3:49:26>> You know, Car's double our size, right?

3:49:28>> And they're still doing it. Raleigh we

3:49:29know has their own facility.

3:49:31>> So, another another question on the

3:49:33list. Um, like what would it take

3:49:35hypothetically if we told you tomorrow

3:49:37go build a facility. What do you need to

3:49:39compost ourselves? Or a transfer

3:49:42facility. We talk about that for years.

3:49:44>> Yeah.

3:49:44>> We had you the land. We talked about

3:49:46we're still what's what's going on?

3:49:47Three acres.

3:49:49>> Yeah.

3:49:50>> There's got a threeacre guard, right?

3:49:52>> Yeah.

3:49:52>> I don't know about that.

3:49:53>> So, the transfer facility

3:49:55>> did did get approved recently. Uh, but

3:49:58again, you know, it's part of the

3:50:00Hopsson and Gateway land swap. So when

3:50:02we first brought it to you, we had 50

3:50:05acres,

3:50:06>> right?

3:50:06>> Then there was another use for the land.

3:50:08So then we carved out enough to maybe

3:50:11try,

3:50:12>> but what we carved out was only for an

3:50:14emergency. It wasn't really for daily

3:50:16operations.

3:50:18>> And then it has no composting

3:50:19capability. So it's just

3:50:21>> again, that's why the Liberty is is such

3:50:24a

3:50:25>> Well, what I'm asking for is this this

3:50:26table I described.

3:50:27>> Yep.

3:50:28>> That everyone that that answers 90% of

3:50:30the questions. And then maybe below it

3:50:33specifically, what would it actually

3:50:35entail? The capital investment, the

3:50:36amount of time needed to build transfer

3:50:40station or to build our own composting

3:50:42facility. And the other question I kind

3:50:44of have, maybe it's a little naive,

3:50:46>> but can you imagine a program where we

3:50:48have a transfer station, three acres, we

3:50:50get it running, and then we have 10

3:50:52composting facilities, and then someone

3:50:56probably you decides how we'll go. like

3:50:59there's an operational challenge there,

3:51:00but you you can imagine you don't really

3:51:02need one big site if you're you're

3:51:03composting. Is that a disposal model

3:51:05that could work or is it just too big?

3:51:07And then I start to think, well, you

3:51:09know what? If we did move to to to bags,

3:51:12people hate bags, but they might hate it

3:51:14less than not getting grass at all. And

3:51:16I bet you having to put your grass in a

3:51:19bag will greatly lower the number of

3:51:20tonnage that we do every year. Some

3:51:22people will still do it. Other people

3:51:23will find that they can't actually mulch

3:51:25their their yard. They have to put in

3:51:26the grass. Yeah, there's pros and cons

3:51:28of that, too. Uh, you lose the

3:51:30efficiency and automation. You have more

3:51:32labor. Mags are kind of falling out of

3:51:34favor. They're going to more containers

3:51:36for the automated part. But I we can

3:51:39>> containers and I want a fourth container

3:51:40like if we're doing a yard waste

3:51:42container,

3:51:43>> right?

3:51:43>> And again, not widely beloved across

3:51:46town that we're giving people a yard

3:51:47waste container and they go now, okay,

3:51:49also here's a grass container.

3:51:51>> They know where. We are not advocating

3:51:53for a special unless it's a private

3:51:55service that the the homeowner wants to

3:51:58to get. If we did it, we would recommend

3:52:00in a container all signal straight,

3:52:03which is what peers do that can process

3:52:06the grass. Correct.

3:52:07>> But again, like the table could tell me

3:52:09who they're taking it to and then why

3:52:11they can't take our our waste. And I

3:52:13think I think you may have all the

3:52:14answers somewhere. It's just

3:52:15>> Well, the last um presentation, it

3:52:18wasn't in February, but it had the table

3:52:20as of that time. were majority of the

3:52:22the table or the majority of the data.

3:52:25>> It had some of it. It didn't have what

3:52:27the provider was,

3:52:28>> right?

3:52:28>> Which is a key part because we want to

3:52:30know we chased on every provider and

3:52:32whether they're under contract or not

3:52:33because we're making this

3:52:34>> there's an argument that you're making.

3:52:36Yeah.

3:52:36>> That we're going to have to make on your

3:52:37behalf that we need a contract,

3:52:39>> right?

3:52:40>> But Zebulun may not have a contract.

3:52:42Wendell have a contract. And the answer

3:52:44is volume, you know. But again, that's

3:52:46an argument that has to be made.

3:52:47Something we have to articulate. I'll

3:52:49just add to that. We agree on something.

3:52:52That's great. Okay. [laughter]

3:52:54[clears throat]

3:52:54>> I reconsidered.

3:52:57>> Yes.

3:52:58>> On the uh so because there was still

3:53:00another thing on the capacity of of

3:53:02where we take it. I I still don't have a

3:53:03definite of

3:53:04>> what's that

3:53:05>> the capacity of places where it's being

3:53:07transferred to. I still don't have a

3:53:09clear answer on that to be

3:53:10>> well that's private privately owned and

3:53:13that's de there's information on DEEQ as

3:53:16to what they are permitted to do and

3:53:20that's a private question if they will

3:53:23give up their data but a lot of that

3:53:24some of that's public record uh but then

3:53:27there's a willingness to to get that

3:53:29information but we will we'll be happy

3:53:31to try to try to get that information.

3:53:34Um is it possible we do not focus on

3:53:40only one provider but right if we work

3:53:44with several companies right because one

3:53:47you know uh for for example GFL said we

3:53:50are too big right we have too many know

3:53:52too many times if we work with several

3:53:56like that GFL take only 1,000 times

3:53:59because we have 7,000 another one take

3:54:01you know another 2,000 is that's

3:54:04possible.

3:54:04>> I don't understand operationally how you

3:54:06would ever pull that off. You you've got

3:54:09routes, you've got, you know, you got

3:54:11certain people doing certain things and

3:54:13then you've got yard waste types. You've

3:54:16got sticks and limbs and what doesn't go

3:54:18on the ground and one provider, another

3:54:21provider's picking up. I just I don't

3:54:24know how you would operationally make

3:54:26that work with 26,000 households and

3:54:29different people coming and going

3:54:31different types of equipment. Uh

3:54:35>> yeah,

3:54:35>> I I honestly don't even know where I

3:54:37would start on something like that. I

3:54:40>> uh because again you're big there's only

3:54:42a few providers that have the capital

3:54:44resources to do something like that and

3:54:47uh they would if you abandon your you

3:54:51know your leaf program loose leaves

3:54:53you'd be putting it in a container which

3:54:55you know Greensboro's already done and

3:54:57Raleigh's trying to do this year for the

3:55:00first time and we've got residents so

3:55:03used to the vacuum service. Okay, we're

3:55:04doing that, but then you have the the

3:55:07grapple and you have the chipping and

3:55:08you have all the other things. So, I

3:55:11would think that council would probably

3:55:13be entertaining a service reduction if

3:55:16you went with just a provider on one

3:55:19type of a process, but that's something

3:55:22that that council could do. I don't know

3:55:24how popular it would be, but you know,

3:55:27council certainly has that option of

3:55:28just we're only going to do it this way.

3:55:32uh you got to find the grass solution if

3:55:33you're doing it most likely, you know.

3:55:36Uh

3:55:38but there's not a lot of people in this

3:55:40market in this space.

3:55:43>> You have a

3:55:45>> Yeah. So I I will go back to in times of

3:55:49hard decisions looking at the documents

3:55:51and the policies that you all have laid

3:55:53before us. Um I will point to our

3:55:56strategic plan and I think John has

3:55:57mentioned this in his presentation.

3:55:59There are two tenants that come to mind.

3:56:01The first is environmental leadership.

3:56:02That is one of the five goals that this

3:56:04council or previous council has put

3:56:06forward. Um I think a expert from NC

3:56:10State would tell you that the most

3:56:11environmentally friendly option here is

3:56:13for grass to stay in place. So in

3:56:16looking at the strategic plan that

3:56:17tenant is met with what's before you.

3:56:20The other is high performing government

3:56:22or governance. That's where your

3:56:23conflict point is. Um, from an

3:56:25efficiency standpoint, fiscally, it is

3:56:28very inefficient to vacuum grass off of

3:56:31roads in our community, but then

3:56:34balancing that with the customer service

3:56:37side. Um, and if that's what you all are

3:56:39hearing as the elected officials, that's

3:56:41where the conflict won't come. But

3:56:43fiscally, environmentally, the program

3:56:45that we put on does not make sense. Um,

3:56:48and that's that document is a document

3:56:50that we as staff utilize as we bring

3:56:52recommendations before you. Uh, So the

3:56:54recommendation that we have brought

3:56:56checks the box for multiple parts of our

3:56:58strategic plan and so I will say that

3:57:00but we also know that decisions are more

3:57:02complicated than that and we respect

3:57:05where you all would like to go on this.

3:57:07We will make it work. There's an element

3:57:08to if if you decide to keep grass

3:57:10collection there is an element of

3:57:12rolling the dice. Uh we may get there

3:57:14and I think the gentleman from Liberty

3:57:16would would talk about this as part of

3:57:17when we were negotiating with them. They

3:57:20looked at different facilities and said,

3:57:21"We can't find a place to take it." Uh,

3:57:24and part of that is driven by our

3:57:25volume. And that's why we've heard other

3:57:27communities still have options. We can

3:57:29roll the dice. It could be six months.

3:57:31It could be eight months. It could be a

3:57:32year down the road. We don't know what

3:57:34that period is. But there may come a

3:57:36point in time where that facility says,

3:57:38"We can't take it anymore." And we're

3:57:39telling our residents, "Next week, this

3:57:41is stopped." That is a reality. But we

3:57:44can still do that. And if that's what we

3:57:46want to do, then just let our residents

3:57:48know that it could stop at any given

3:57:51time. And that's the element of rolling

3:57:53the dice. But we could certainly go

3:57:55forward and do that and maybe it works

3:57:57for a little while. But long term,

3:57:59everything in this market is pointing to

3:58:01the trend of not collecting grass. Um,

3:58:04so ultimately unless there is a regional

3:58:06facility put in place or something that

3:58:09comes out of the the work that Central

3:58:10Pines is doing and the study from

3:58:12Central Pines, I think at a minimum the

3:58:14study will come back in June,

3:58:16>> but then it has to identify what are the

3:58:18possible solutions. That's three to five

3:58:21years potentially on solutions. I mean,

3:58:22I'm grabbing it that probably a generous

3:58:25time frame.

3:58:26>> So, we don't see an immediate solution

3:58:27that's in place. And so, how long can we

3:58:30roll the dice? I mean, it it could we

3:58:31don't have the magic eightball on that.

3:58:33It could be two years that we collect

3:58:34grass, but it could be next month. It

3:58:36could be three months. Um, so there's an

3:58:38element of risk to that and as long as

3:58:39you all are aware of that potential

3:58:41risk. It's our job to bring you the data

3:58:44and you all have to tell us what risk

3:58:46point you have of what you want to take.

3:58:48>> There's also a fiscal risk with rolling

3:58:50the dice. I mean, let's use the vacuum

3:58:52truck as an example. We got two data

3:58:54down.

3:58:55>> So, if we're if we operate at status

3:58:57quo, we've got to basically buy two new

3:58:59ones.

3:59:00>> That's right. So, we buy two new ones

3:59:02and then we end up with a place that we

3:59:03don't get to put them. Then we're paying

3:59:05for something that we're not going to

3:59:06use. I mean, I'm just using that as one

3:59:08example.

3:59:09>> That That's what our fear is. And that's

3:59:10why I had Bill

3:59:11>> just like a bus that they couldn't sell

3:59:14because they didn't get it ADA

3:59:16compliant. And who are we going to sell

3:59:17a leaf vacuum to when they can't use it?

3:59:20>> Yeah,

3:59:21>> these are I mean, I'm just talking real

3:59:23fiscal

3:59:23>> risk. We have run the clock. You know,

3:59:26two years ago when we had the two in for

3:59:28replacement, we understand why that's

3:59:31the constraints, but we can't keep

3:59:33having a curbside program when grass is

3:59:36on unlimited volumes and we can't we

3:59:38don't even have the trucks to get it

3:59:40with. So, we're trying to make the

3:59:42transition to get everything lined up

3:59:43capital-wise just to keep operating.

3:59:46It's that bad as far as equipment.

3:59:48You've probably seen the pictures of how

3:59:50the grass slams up against the impeller.

3:59:52this is our reality is is the vacuum

3:59:55system and not having a place to go with

3:59:58it on top of like what are we gonna do,

4:00:01you know? Um

4:00:03grass is our problem. That's the one

4:00:06problem. If that's not collected, the

4:00:08vac trucks are then just picking up

4:00:10small shrubbery clippings, small twigs

4:00:13or whatever the vacuum with a place to

4:00:16go until less strain on wear and tear on

4:00:19the motor until the new program

4:00:22launches. Then we kind of have to baby

4:00:25those trucks and then the planet does

4:00:27program that out, but we're going to be

4:00:30running the clock on what we have. I

4:00:31don't know, it's going to be tough. And

4:00:33the real problem is you're a victim of

4:00:34your own success because you're using

4:00:36the same vacuum trucks for the leaves as

4:00:38you are for the grass. So

4:00:38[clears throat] when people see, oh well

4:00:40you're sucking up leaves. Why can't you

4:00:42just which is the my my anathema is that

4:00:46phrase, why can't you just? Because it

4:00:49ultimately presupposes that we are

4:00:52thinking of things that you haven't

4:00:53thought through.

4:00:55>> That's right. It it's a timing issue all

4:00:58around, but I respect and know the pain

4:01:01points of the constituents, but we just

4:01:04can't I don't know how we keep going the

4:01:07way we go with the type of equipment

4:01:09we're going with. And again, to Ry's

4:01:11point, I mentioned we followed the

4:01:13playbook on sustainability when it said

4:01:15this and that and that's why I brought

4:01:17it forward and I just didn't realize it

4:01:19was going to play out at this level of

4:01:22where we can't get rid of it. But, you

4:01:24know, at the end of the day, mulching is

4:01:26just the best practice. We we just

4:01:29believe that. And then it becomes, okay,

4:01:32are we going to endorse or support a

4:01:35practice that's not sustainable and the

4:01:38town paid money to try to support a

4:01:41non-sustainable method? Again, that's

4:01:44not for me.

4:01:47>> All right. Um, so, Council Member Happy

4:01:50asking for some additional information.

4:01:54How long will it take you to pull that

4:01:55together?

4:01:56>> Um, we'll start immediately. Uh, I don't

4:01:58know how long it'll take to get disposal

4:02:01data from different municipalities and

4:02:03all. Uh, we know who operates and how.

4:02:06We know Carrie goes to McGee. We know

4:02:08that Dan has a relationship with them

4:02:10and they they're out of capacity. So, we

4:02:13can find things fairly quickly. I

4:02:15believe

4:02:15>> two weeks a month like what's uh what do

4:02:17you need?

4:02:18>> Uh, I know how to work all night. No, I

4:02:22don't mind. I'll get I'll I'll do what

4:02:24council wants. No problem.

4:02:25>> So, here's here's my my thinking on

4:02:27this. So, there's there's two things.

4:02:29So, I agree with with Mr. I'm happy that

4:02:34it's hard to keep all the information

4:02:35that you've shared with us over, you

4:02:37know, a series of work sessions and

4:02:39briefings and whatnot to kind of keep it

4:02:42all front and center

4:02:44much less

4:02:47synthesize that into a single coherent

4:02:50story that we can justify the choices

4:02:53that we're making, you know, to the

4:02:54residents that we're impacting.

4:02:56Um

4:02:58so I kind of share the desire to to get

4:03:01that all you know laid out in front of

4:03:03us. I am keenly

4:03:07um interested in also seeing like what

4:03:09it would take to continue grass

4:03:11collection even if it's just for another

4:03:1312 18 months, right? What capital

4:03:16investment are we not planning on right

4:03:18now that you would need to add back into

4:03:19the plan aka vacuum trucks, right? And

4:03:22how much are we talking about? How much

4:03:25will that increase our overall operating

4:03:27expense, right? Compared to the level

4:03:30that we're at right now because, you

4:03:31know,

4:03:33I mean, we hear it, you know, from from,

4:03:36you know, all the time, right? Like, I

4:03:37don't want to pay more. I don't want to

4:03:38pay more tax. I'm out of money, right?

4:03:41And I think that's that's fair, right?

4:03:43And so, we are here, you know, we're

4:03:45being asked has to make a hard decision.

4:03:47There's an environmental, there's an

4:03:48economic component to it, right? There's

4:03:50also a service component to it. We're

4:03:52very much focused on a service

4:03:54component, right? Um, but maybe this is

4:03:57one of those hard decisions where we

4:03:58need to decide to cut something in order

4:04:00to fiscally protect ourselves and

4:04:03thereby our residents, right? And so I'd

4:04:05like to get some of this this

4:04:06information in in in one place, right?

4:04:09And we have like a single narrative that

4:04:11we can build around that and then say,

4:04:14okay, yes, you know, based on all of

4:04:15this, it makes sense to go this way,

4:04:17this way, or this way. The other thing I

4:04:19would say is that you know this central

4:04:20pine study

4:04:22um

4:04:24I I you know I think we need to find

4:04:26some way to allow that to complete and

4:04:28see where that leads us right because

4:04:29again like we're kind of unilarily going

4:04:32into this one direction right now based

4:04:34on all the information we have we

4:04:35believe that to be the right direction

4:04:37but if this is something that all the

4:04:40other 11 municipalities in Bay County

4:04:42are grappling with right I I have to

4:04:46believe that something will come out of

4:04:47this this this study some proposal or

4:04:50another, right? That, you know, maybe,

4:04:53you know, by getting out of the gates

4:04:57faster than everybody else, we might be

4:04:59doing ourselves a disservice because now

4:05:00we got to go, you know, change our plans

4:05:02like a year, two years from now, right?

4:05:04When when these, you know, when more

4:05:06information is available and oh, hey,

4:05:09like let's go do something as a county,

4:05:11right? And the county will set up a

4:05:13collection site and we can, you know,

4:05:15bring our grass clippings there again.

4:05:18And but we now have purchased the

4:05:19containerization trucks and that the you

4:05:21know the leaf backs or the defective

4:05:23trucks and all that. So

4:05:26I guess you know I hate to do this to

4:05:28you again but you know I think the best

4:05:30course of action here is to you know

4:05:31fund the decision

4:05:34you know tell me how much time you need

4:05:35right let's continue the conversation

4:05:37either you know the first or second

4:05:39meeting in in October and then you know

4:05:42with all the information hand we can

4:05:43make it you know a better

4:05:46formulated

4:05:48position because I I think there you

4:05:49know we all kind of logically understand

4:05:51where you're going

4:05:52>> right

4:05:52>> right right but having the information

4:05:55right in front of us I think is going to

4:05:57make a big difference in our ability to

4:06:00you know stuff from swirling around some

4:06:02of these issues

4:06:04>> I think um some compar

4:06:08comparison charts like um municipalities

4:06:12around us like Mosville police

4:06:16uh Kerry rally you know what uh which uh

4:06:20you know um provider they are using

4:06:23right

4:06:24And um how much you know they are paying

4:06:27that and what is their volume. I think

4:06:30if we you uh and also why you know they

4:06:34they are using those contractors but

4:06:36they cannot accept us you know we can

4:06:39reason but I think that will be much

4:06:42more clear and more educational you know

4:06:46um to our residents being responsible to

4:06:49let them know all the scenarios

4:06:51>> right. Yes. Some of that again private

4:06:54business, but we'll we'll do our best to

4:06:57get what they will give us

4:06:59>> publicly and then what we can get from

4:07:02DEEQ as to what their permit allows uh

4:07:06and hope they're compliant.

4:07:08>> Thank you. That's

4:07:11>> really appreciate. It's not easy.

4:07:13>> It's a so much work.

4:07:15>> That's right.

4:07:16>> Yeah. [clears throat] Appreciate our

4:07:17public works.

4:07:18>> Okay.

4:07:20>> Motion. Need a motion.

4:07:22ask or just timing expectations, John,

4:07:24and I'm putting you on the spot here,

4:07:26but I'm worried.

4:07:28>> Yeah. Well, I have a vacation plan. I'm

4:07:29trying to remember what it is.

4:07:30[laughter] I do, but that's why I'm

4:07:32saying I'll work at night.

4:07:33>> I'm worried about the timing that it's

4:07:35going to take to get this information

4:07:36together, get it and and what they're

4:07:38going to expect the fashion that it's

4:07:39in. We'll we'll just have to dedicate

4:07:41between Brandon and I. We'll dedicate

4:07:44and split up certain municipalities and

4:07:47uh

4:07:49do the best we can to get as complete a

4:07:51record as we can assemble uh

4:07:54understanding who's doing what. We

4:07:56already know who's doing what. We've

4:07:57already been down the road pretty much.

4:07:59So, it's just a matter of now finding

4:08:02out what information they will share

4:08:04with us and do our best.

4:08:06>> And [clears throat] if I can humbly

4:08:08submit as part of that packet um a

4:08:15run every trap um outcome. We've called

4:08:20these people. This is what they said.

4:08:22This is what they'll accept. This is why

4:08:24it won't work. Next thing, right? All

4:08:26the way through. Because

4:08:27>> yeah,

4:08:27>> if I if we get one

4:08:29>> set of residents and they're sending us

4:08:31and now they're not in your chart, then

4:08:34we don't have an airtight

4:08:35>> right

4:08:35>> case,

4:08:37>> right?

4:08:38>> Yeah. I mean, hearing that I I I'm not

4:08:40comfortable bringing it back at the next

4:08:42meeting October.

4:08:44>> Yeah. You're probably

4:08:46>> there are traps that we haven't exper or

4:08:48even anticipated. That's a much longer

4:08:50>> and we know we know one issue is going

4:08:52to be with one provider due to a lot of

4:08:55extenduating circumstances. So we're not

4:08:57going to be able to give a good complete

4:08:59answer on some of these, but we can give

4:09:01you as best. And I know you're wanting

4:09:03everything we can get, but we'll

4:09:04document what we can.

4:09:06>> Well, a lot of this is around the

4:09:07deadline of January 1st, but even that

4:09:09deadline is kind of arbitrary, right?

4:09:10Like the real deadline is when we start

4:09:12brass collection next year to have a

4:09:14plan

4:09:15>> in place and communicated which could

4:09:17mean May

4:09:20April.

4:09:21>> Yeah,

4:09:22>> we are

4:09:22>> no whatever

4:09:25>> again I I think that the thing is going

4:09:27to be

4:09:28>> from our budget ending March

4:09:29>> but we don't need to progress there

4:09:30until rest.

4:09:32>> Yeah.

4:09:33>> Yeah. I know from our budget office it's

4:09:36just figured out what our capital is

4:09:39going to be so we can set rates and we

4:09:41can get you know so and do we continue

4:09:44on with option two like we had planned

4:09:46>> based on what I've heard tonight I'm not

4:09:48comfortable even proceeding with those

4:09:49capital purchases so I think we have to

4:09:52put that on hold and we need to gather

4:09:54the information as thorough as possible

4:09:56with what we given tonight and and that

4:09:59brings up another question like the

4:10:00number one thing we get asked is like

4:10:02you know okay we're ending grass

4:10:03collection

4:10:04Well, why don't you do what Carrie does,

4:10:06Holly Springs, whatever. You know,

4:10:08that's that helps. The number two

4:10:10question is, okay, great. How much is my

4:10:12yard waste going to go down,

4:10:14>> right? Right.

4:10:16>> Yeah. And to your point, we weren't at

4:10:19cost recovery already.

4:10:20>> This is going to help put your cap on

4:10:22your rates, though, especially with the

4:10:24arrangement we made with Liberty because

4:10:27that we we now know what those rates are

4:10:29going to be. That's why if grass were

4:10:31gone, we're golden. We could make

4:10:32everything work. But I realize what

4:10:35you're you're wrestling with.

4:10:36>> But we need to articulate that, right?

4:10:38So, okay. So, for cost recovery, like

4:10:41without grass, so we're going to go from

4:10:43$8 to $1, whatever the number is, right?

4:10:46With grass, it goes from $8 to $50 like

4:10:49whatever, right? But so, we can show the

4:10:52delta. I don't know if this is the

4:10:54appropriate time to answer, but one of

4:10:56the things that that has been has come

4:10:58up before the past is that I want to be

4:11:02prepared for

4:11:04from the administrative burden as well

4:11:06is town home communities

4:11:09versus the full population. So you have

4:11:128,000 town home communities and you have

4:11:1518,000

4:11:17uh regular single family households.

4:11:20Some get service, some don't. But the

4:11:22yard waste fee covers more than just

4:11:25that. That's an important discussion on

4:11:27cost, which is why I was trying to land

4:11:29Liberty the way I did. So we now have

4:11:32really without that grass in the

4:11:35external market. We now know what we're

4:11:37dealing with volumewise.

4:11:39But that's a that's going to change your

4:11:41rate. Like as long as we apply yard

4:11:43waste fees across the board to every

4:11:46utility bill like we do, your rates will

4:11:48be stable. They'll cap and they'll start

4:11:52not moving high as we get that culture

4:11:55recovery. But if council's entertaining

4:11:58doing a different model with the town

4:12:01home communities, that's something we're

4:12:02going to need to know in the budget

4:12:05planning cycle because I know I there's,

4:12:08you know,

4:12:09>> are there models out there where grass

4:12:10is an add-on service?

4:12:12>> That what my desire was was going to be

4:12:15is that we find out where our financial

4:12:18model takes us without grass and see

4:12:22where that lands. And if uh

4:12:26grass happens to come in for residents

4:12:29that's willing to pay for that service,

4:12:30they pay a higher fee. So you stabilize

4:12:34the communities. But then that's what

4:12:36brings up the town homes.

4:12:38>> How you going to deal with town homes?

4:12:40>> I mean, well, it makes sense to pay for

4:12:41what you use, but also it comes to the

4:12:43volume question,

4:12:44>> right?

4:12:44>> Because if our biggest issue was we have

4:12:46so much volume because we collect

4:12:48unlimited stuff.

4:12:49>> Yeah. And then we suddenly say, well,

4:12:51grass is now five extra bucks a month,

4:12:5410 extra bucks a month. Then people

4:12:56suddenly find a way to mulch. And then

4:12:58the amount of people who are like, yeah,

4:12:59I don't care 10 bucks. That's a great

4:13:00deal. I mean, so you got those.

4:13:02>> And that's why this runway of

4:13:04eliminating grass kind of lets us see

4:13:06what that's like while we find

4:13:08solutions.

4:13:09Uh it is reality that we don't we're

4:13:13having challenges with it. But it you do

4:13:15find out like if there's a private

4:13:18vendor and they're you know they come

4:13:21once a week and it's $25 a visit where

4:13:23residents pay $100 for just that grass.

4:13:26They may and then they may I think I'm

4:13:28going to mulch

4:13:30>> but we don't know that. So

4:13:31>> I think certainly

4:13:33>> and I don't know what's going to happen

4:13:34but

4:13:35>> hypothetically we get to a place where

4:13:36eliminate grass we have to have the

4:13:39contact list of private vendors who can

4:13:41take it to put people in contact with

4:13:43for those who have to have it and just

4:13:45have that be a smooth transition with

4:13:48another feed into a private company like

4:13:51we should get those relationships in

4:13:52place to to try to get the capacity

4:13:54through a combination of private vendors

4:13:56because I've been contacted I'm sure you

4:13:57have as well yeah

4:13:58>> by composters around town like we'd love

4:14:00to take grass. Maybe they can't take

4:14:037,000 tons of it, but

4:14:04>> you know, maybe there won't be 7,000

4:14:06tons if it it cost 20 bucks a month or

4:14:08whatever.

4:14:08>> Yeah.

4:14:09>> So,

4:14:09>> that's why the private market to solve

4:14:11this problem, I think, is the right one.

4:14:14It takes the town out of the liabilities

4:14:16and keeping the equipment running and

4:14:18everything else, the people that truly

4:14:20have to make the choice to bagg will be

4:14:23able to pay it. And it's not on the

4:14:25council's backs that, oh, this should be

4:14:28included in my service. it's already not

4:14:31statutoily required that it's done for

4:14:33aesthetic reasons, you know, but again

4:14:35that's a that's policy.

4:14:38But I think that it's putting you in a

4:14:41very difficult situation dealing with

4:14:43grass when again sustainability wise

4:14:46we'd rather it be left in place.

4:14:50>> But I will definitely get uh as much

4:14:53information and then report back to

4:14:55Randy. As far as a timeline, it's just

4:14:57going to be dependent on how willing we

4:14:59can get information. It won't happen by

4:15:01the CIP deadline that we've been trying

4:15:04to hit.

4:15:05So just to to wrap this up, um what I

4:15:08have heard is there is a motion or a

4:15:10potential motion to continue

4:15:12consideration of the ordinance amendment

4:15:14related to the discontinuation of

4:15:16yardways collection until the November

4:15:1810th, 2026 council meeting and to direct

4:15:22the town manager through other staff to

4:15:24prepare a consolidated report outlining

4:15:26the items discussed by council,

4:15:28including the financial impact and cost

4:15:30recovery implications associated with

4:15:32the potential continuing of yard waste

4:15:34collection.

4:15:35Uh, would you prefer the one before or

4:15:37the one after?

4:15:38>> I'm I'm gonna have to get my my

4:15:40calendar. I'm sorry. I don't remember

4:15:42what date it is. Yeah.

4:15:43>> May preferred November

4:15:45>> just to allow some time.

4:15:51>> That's correct. And the one in December

4:15:54meeting in December already,

4:15:57>> they're all full until January

4:16:00unless I mean unless you all want to

4:16:02stay.

4:16:05So, I mean, it can come the count. We

4:16:07tried to pick a date where there wasn't

4:16:10a ton of public hearings already

4:16:11scheduled.

4:16:13>> There have to be a date certain. Can't

4:16:15we just table it and just and then let

4:16:18bring pick it up?

4:16:20>> Yeah.

4:16:22>> You don't have to do a date. It's just

4:16:23helpful for the public to know when

4:16:25>> Yes.

4:16:27>> Yeah.

4:16:29So, who has a motion to move to accept

4:16:32that or did you want to change the date?

4:16:34>> Change the date. I get I mean listen

4:16:37like the dates are more they can be

4:16:39driven by you guys like when you can do

4:16:41it when it works. Um

4:16:44whether it's a week before, a week

4:16:46after, it's not that big of a deal.

4:16:48>> So,

4:16:49>> well, and as soon as we can get the

4:16:51data, Randy can distribute it while we

4:16:54work on

4:16:54>> Yeah. And I think I'll send you what I

4:16:56got and I think everyone else wants to

4:16:57send their questions too. And and the

4:16:59point is like this document it should be

4:17:00like one or two pages like just

4:17:04>> not even as few words. Try not to put

4:17:06sentences on there. Just like words,

4:17:08phrases, some punctuation, but like

4:17:11you're trying to just it's not it's not

4:17:12an explanatory document. It's like the

4:17:14one place where it all is because people

4:17:17>> like they have

4:17:18>> you want an infographic

4:17:19>> Apex

4:17:19>> onepage infographic.

4:17:21>> Yeah.

4:17:22>> Chart just you know. Yeah.

4:17:24>> All right. Okay.

4:17:25>> All right. So, so move. Some move. Yeah.

4:17:27>> All right. Have a motion. Is there a

4:17:28second?

4:17:28>> Second.

4:17:29>> Second. Zerman. Any other discussion? I

4:17:31think we discussed it enough. All in

4:17:33favor? [laughter]

4:17:34>> All in favor say I.

4:17:35>> I. Oppose.

4:17:36>> No.

4:17:37>> All right. Motion carries. Four to one.

4:17:40>> Thank you, John.

4:17:40>> All right. Thank you.

4:17:44>> Thank you, John. That's lots of work.

4:17:46>> All right. Thank you.

4:17:46>> Thanks. We have some more items.

4:17:49>> Do we have more items?

4:17:51>> All right. Motion to go into close

4:17:54session.

4:17:56>> Second.

4:17:56>> Second. Gray. All in favor say I. I.

4:17:59>> Motion carries. Going to close session.

4:54:11Okay.

4:54:14>> Okay.

4:54:16Okay.

4:54:20>> You're on TV soon.

4:54:25>> Motion to adjourn.

4:54:26>> Second.

4:54:28[laughter]

4:54:32Thanks everyone.