2026-11-04 - Data Center Subcommittee Meeting

00:56Oh, really?

00:57>> Yeah, she's supposed to be there.

00:59>> Okay.

01:00What's the difference between that?

01:03Man,

01:05I thought she was going to be the boss

01:06today.

02:32>> I just listen in and

02:38There's there's

02:39probably four people maybe who shouldn't

02:42show up every time

02:44and they ask the same question pretty

02:46much every time.

02:48>> Yeah.

02:49Okay.

02:50Thanks.

06:07>> Mhm.

08:10>> Mhm.

10:12>> Mhm.

12:15>> Mhm.

12:43>> Yeah, are we ready?

12:45Okay.

12:46All right, welcome everybody. It's good

12:49to see everybody again. I'm going to go

12:50ahead and call to vote to order the

12:52November 4th, 2026 data center

12:55subcommittee meeting.

12:58And with that, we'll begin with Bruce

13:01and new business.

13:07>> Good evening subcommittee meet members.

13:09Today our topic is going to be public

13:11safety. We have members from both the

13:13Apex Fire Department and Apex Police

13:15Department here to kind of talk to us

13:16about what any type of response or kind

13:19of considerations from their specific

13:21departments might have if something like

13:23a hyperscale data center was to come in.

13:25Um some of this information will be

13:26similar to information you guys have

13:27heard before in the past, but they'll

13:28they're here to answer questions as

13:30well.

13:30Um so we'll go ahead and just kind of

13:31jump in and get started in that.

13:34So first we'll uh

13:36first we'll start with uh Fire Marshal

13:37David Dillon. We he also has uh Chief uh

13:40Daggett here with him as well to answer

13:41any questions, but David, if you'd like

13:43to come up, we're ready to get started.

13:45Oh, sorry. No, that's just you guys are

13:46just seated. And

13:48I have you going first if that's okay.

13:51Yep.

13:52We got a tag team

13:59Hey Trevor, need to go first or

14:02Oh, I apologize. It work work fine.

14:03We're going to be flexible.

14:07Hey, good evening. My name is David

14:09Dillon. I'm the I serve as the town fire

14:10marshal and I'm so excited to be here

14:12and thank you for the opportunity. Um we

14:14have a presentation that we'd like to go

14:16through and kind of talk through some of

14:17the items. Just four four slides.

14:19And then

14:20Assistant Chief David Dague is here as

14:22well to answer questions on the

14:24operational side of of our response and

14:26our response capabilities of the Apex

14:29Fire Department.

14:30So,

14:31>> [clears throat]

14:32>> we can talk about um

14:34first,

14:35and you guys can see the same screen I

14:36can see, right?

14:37>> Yes.

14:38>> Okay.

14:40Chief Dague, if you'd like to to speak

14:42about um

14:43our camp partnership and our agreements.

14:51>> Good evening. Thank you.

14:53Um

14:54couple things uh

14:56when we look at our response

14:58capabilities from just the town of Apex

15:01Fire Department, um and again, this is

15:04some information that this group has

15:06heard before.

15:07Um we have the Apex Fire Department has

15:09121 highly trained and certified fire

15:12service professionals

15:14that stand ready to respond 24/7 365.

15:18Each day,

15:19uh we staff eight Apex fire trucks

15:22along with two battalion chiefs located

15:24throughout our fire district to provide

15:27emergency coverage,

15:28uh

15:29which equates to 36 personnel per shift

15:32assigned.

15:33Of the eight staffed trucks, two of them

15:35are ladder trucks that can reach 100 ft.

15:38A recent fire station study location did

15:40identify some service gaps in our

15:41western side, um down uh the Olive

15:44Chapel area,

15:46um related to resources and response

15:49times.

15:50Currently, we have plans in motion to

15:52address these gaps with an additional

15:54fire station that will house two

15:56additional fire trucks, an engine and a

15:58ladder.

16:00Um in addition, the identified gaps

16:03of services a concern.

16:05However, to be clear,

16:07um it's not just about the data center.

16:09We have coverage gaps in in the western

16:12portion of that.

16:13Um this service deliv- delivery affects

16:16um every gap. Um

16:18affects everyone.

16:20I would like to acknowledge that the new

16:22this new station is in the town's

16:24current CIP

16:25with a projection projected construction

16:29in FY30.

16:31Um

16:33So, that's the overall

16:34the Apex Fire Department. However, we do

16:37have a

16:38CAM partnership, which is our second

16:40layer layer response.

16:42In 2019,

16:44the town of Apex, Cary, and Morrisville

16:46entered into a special agreement

16:49to improve fire protection within all

16:51three towns, creating the CAM Fire

16:54Response District.

16:56Since 2019, all three departments

16:59respond as one

17:01single fire response authority.

17:03We are dispatched as one agency,

17:05share the same response plans, have

17:08common operating guidelines, and conduct

17:10multiple joint trainings throughout the

17:12year.

17:14As one agency, as one response agency,

17:17we are 18 stations operating 15 engines,

17:21eight ladder companies,

17:23five rescues,

17:24and five battalion chiefs for a total

17:27personnel assigned for any given shift

17:29between the three agencies at 117

17:31personnel.

17:34Finally, um our third layer being that

17:36of mutual aid agreements.

17:38Most fire departments do rely on their

17:40neighbors

17:41to help during a major emergency that

17:44require larger number of personnel and

17:46larger resources.

17:48This is accomplished through mutual aid

17:49agreements, and Apex has mutual aid

17:52agreements with every fire department in

17:53Wake County, 18 in total.

17:56In addition

17:57to Chatham County fire departments.

18:00Lastly, the town of Apex contracts with

18:03the city of Raleigh HazMat

18:05technical res-

18:07technical response team

18:09to provide service capabilities that are

18:11outside the scope of practice for the

18:13Apex Fire Department.

18:19Um

18:22Data centers related to fire protect uh

18:25protection. Apex Fire Department

18:27conducted research related to fire

18:29protection and response needs to these

18:30facilities.

18:32This included research researching

18:34trusted fire service industry

18:35publications and also reaching out to

18:38over a dozen fire service experts.

18:41We spoke with multiple fire departments

18:43across the country that have data

18:45centers to include ones that have had

18:48fires. We spoke with leaders of the

18:50National Fire Protection Association,

18:53the North Carolina Office of State Fire

18:54Marshal, and the Hazmat Coordinator for

18:57the state regional regional response

18:59team.

19:01The buildings are typically type one

19:03construction which are fire resistant

19:06and are protected with automatic fire

19:08protection systems.

19:10The majority of these buildings house

19:12computer servers, but also house a large

19:14number of battery backup components that

19:16provide power between normal power

19:17supply

19:19and the switch to generator power should

19:21be needed.

19:23These batteries are typically

19:24lithium-ion batteries and

19:27and can create challenges if fires are

19:29involved.

19:31There are an estimated 12,000 data

19:33centers in the world, 5,500

19:36in the US between 2014

19:39I'm sorry. 5,500 in the United States

19:42between 2014 and 2023,

19:45only 22 fires were reported worldwide

19:48during this 10-year time frame.

19:50After studying these fires in detail,

19:52the majority of them were small fires

19:54contained to the area of origin where

19:56the fire was not related to the data

19:57center itself.

20:00Based on our research and multiple

20:02conversations about the dangers

20:04the data centers can pose, I

20:07um

20:08concluded

20:09that data centers are considered a

20:11target hazard of moderate or high risk

20:13that takes special consideration. Like

20:15most target hazards,

20:17there still remains a low probability of

20:20a major incident, but if something does

20:22occur, it can become a significant

20:24event.

20:26This type of facility and risk will

20:27require an increased response if a fire

20:29is reported to meet all the

20:31needs of all the required critical task

20:33we may encounter.

20:42Um

20:44Finally, if it you know, a data center's

20:47approved policy consideration and

20:49mitigation measures must be at the

20:51forefront.

20:52Um

20:53At this time, um our fire marshal David

20:55Dillon will provide additional insight

20:57of of those

20:59codes and regulations.

21:00Thank you.

21:06>> Hello again.

21:08So, uh as fire marshal, we do conduct

21:11plan reviews. As these projects come in

21:13for plan review, um we would

21:15uh

21:16be part of the technical review

21:17committee and conduct uh several

21:18meetings with the applicants, and we

21:20would request and require early and

21:22often engagement. Apex risk management,

21:24which is our fire marshal's office,

21:26would meet with the proposed applicant

21:28at the onset and throughout the

21:29development to ensure robust preventive

21:30measures are in place.

21:32We would also request and require an

21:34independent uh review by a fire

21:36protection specialist. Typical uh groups

21:39are UL Solutions that provide that

21:40service to help us review and and

21:42provide technical knowledge on specific

21:44to data centers with their battery

21:45storage systems,

21:47generators, and um

21:49and hazmat considerations.

21:51Water supply and runoff containment

21:52issues, this is a big concern. Um If

21:55there is a fire and we have a any type

21:57of potential runoff, there are two areas

21:58where we consider no variances. Um the

22:00site would need to demonstrate that they

22:02can meet the standards without

22:03exception. Um The standards are changing

22:06yearly. Uh

22:07our fire codes in North Carolina are

22:09several years behind. We are currently

22:11enforcing the 2015 International Fire

22:14Code.

22:15Um NFPA codes that apply to data centers

22:18are not even referenced in the code that

22:20we currently have. However, I will still

22:22require um the current NFPA codes that

22:25are applicable. Um also um

22:28uh is an OSHA state, so OSHA rules will

22:30also apply to any any data center, any

22:33manufacturing for the for that matter.

22:35Training and guidance as part of a part

22:37of what we require would be that the uh

22:39any applicant would provide

22:41[clears throat]

22:41needed training for our first responders

22:43uh and emergency response on on data

22:45centers.

22:53To include pre-incident planning,

22:55the high electrical load, clean agent

22:56fire suppression systems, lithium-ion

22:58batteries, and different training

22:59scenarios.

23:02That is kind of where

23:05we wound up. So, we are both here to

23:07answer any questions you may have. I'm

23:09I'm

23:09guessing from speaking to Bruce that you

23:11may have more questions for Chief Dague

23:13than you would for me as far as response

23:14and capabilities, but either one of us

23:16are here and happy to to answer what we

23:18can. If we don't, we'll go back and

23:19research and answer.

23:20>> I've got a question about the training.

23:22Um let's say a data center goes in

23:24tomorrow.

23:24>> Yes, sir.

23:25>> Uh

23:26what kind of additional training,

23:29specialized training, do you think that

23:31the fire department or response teams

23:33would need to have in order to address

23:36any potential issues?

23:43>> Of course, there will be a you know, um

23:46with anything we have guidelines,

23:47standard operating guidelines, and and

23:49we'll reach out to many of our partners.

23:52Um

23:52in fact, we've got some data from

23:54Loudoun County, Virginia, which is one

23:56of the larger areas that have and, you

23:59know, formulate their response plan. As

24:01far as training, we would treat it treat

24:03it like any other

24:05um training as far as structure,

24:07fire related or fire related. Um yes,

24:11lithium-ion does pose a significant

24:14risk, but we're already in the process

24:16of preparing for that.

24:17>> to deal with that all

24:17>> Yeah, yeah, with with day-to-day items,

24:20you know, computers, cars, and we're

24:22already we're trained to that level.

24:25>> Currently.

24:25>> That that's pretty much the the

24:28worst scenario is, is a lithium battery

24:30issue is is what you would perceive.

24:35>> [laughter]

24:37>> I I honestly couldn't speak to that. I

24:38mean, you know, they're in they're in

24:40every day. They're, you know, everything

24:42that we use has a lithium ion battery,

24:44so um you know, there is always an

24:47inherent risk, but there's an inherent

24:48risk in anything, you know, driving an

24:51automobile, there's an inherent risk.

24:53>> Yeah, I my my

24:54I guess my question was intended

24:57from the potential for a problem arising

25:00that that would be out of the ordinary

25:02for for fire department if they were

25:05have to go in and and suppress a fire.

25:07Lithium battery would probably be at the

25:10the top of the list for y'all or

25:13>> Would it be at the top of the list? That

25:15Again, there's inherent risk. Uh you

25:17know, we what we look at is we look at

25:20uh low frequency, high risk, high risk,

25:22low frequency type of events. We train

25:25on every type of event that we

25:26potentially could see. So, it would be

25:30um another event we would train on or

25:32another process we would be. But, to

25:34that point, I mean, if you look at these

25:36types of structures,

25:38you know, they're already sprinklered,

25:40so you know, the

25:42that's kind of where we look at that as

25:43well, you know, where we

25:44we would use

25:46um information from the the fire code to

25:49to make, you know, into the building

25:51department planning phase and all that

25:52to make sure that the building was

25:55up to code.

25:57>> So, I actually have a question spinning

25:58off of John's. Um first of all, thank

26:01you both for your service. My husband

26:02actually just retired from Raleigh after

26:0430 years. Um

26:06one of the questions he and I've talked

26:08about at home is I know with Raleigh

26:11they carry eight of the um blankets to

26:13put out a lithium battery fire for for

26:17Raleigh. Um now, as it was explained to

26:19me, that's being like put over a Tesla

26:21because it can't put itself out. If

26:24we're dealing with the one that was

26:26proposed, will we have eight buildings

26:28that are the size of Super Walmarts.

26:31We have residential right across the

26:33street. If it's not going to be able to

26:35put itself out without something

26:39basically on it for a while smothering,

26:41are we going to have another situation

26:42like EQ?

26:46>> I wasn't here for EQ, so I cannot speak

26:48to EQ.

26:50Um but as far as that situation goes,

26:52yes, I'm I'm aware of the

26:54the fire blankets. Yes, we do carry them

26:56in the town of Apex. Um

26:59for that purpose. Um the thing with um

27:03if the sprinkler system can control it,

27:05uh studies have shown uh the copious

27:07amounts of water

27:09are the are the avenue.

27:15>> So, presumably if that if the sprinkler

27:17system did deploy even for a small

27:20fire,

27:22that's just water that's

27:24in it.

27:25And so then that water has to drain

27:29somewhere?

27:30Um and usually does that water have

27:33after a fire it's not just pure water,

27:36right? Is it going to pick up other

27:38contaminants and stuff like that?

27:40>> Most likely it will, but you you could

27:42see the same results if you have a

27:44vehicle fire right out here on Hunter

27:46Street. You're going to have the same

27:48contaminants of that same water runoff.

27:50>> Okay.

27:53All right, I I'll probably have to make

27:55you foot flop, so I apologize we're

27:56going to go back and forth. Um but you

27:58mentioned about how North Carolina is

28:00way out of date with codes and of course

28:02we are. Um so, is do the newer code

28:05reference data centers? Is there

28:06something we should be looking at for

28:09Apex that we can reference that's not

28:11how far behind we are the state?

28:13>> Yes, thank you. Um that's that's very

28:14true and that's a accurate assessment.

28:16So, um the big stuff is of course NFPA

28:19855 which is mainly on the on the uh

28:21battery systems, but NFPA 75 and 76 are

28:24more unique to the data centers. It's

28:26really for IT equipment and storage, but

28:28that's where that falls into. The latest

28:30edition um

28:32that's referenced uh uh for

28:35not all our our code, but but knowing

28:37that it's it's there is a 2013 edition.

28:38It's only had 11 chapters. The 2024

28:42edition of NFPA 75 now has I think 13 to

28:4515 chapters. So, it's broadening. That

28:47section of code is is is evolving and

28:49growing as these data centers are being

28:51designed. You know, you you hear some

28:53that use the water for the cooling and

28:56some closed loop systems. Part of that

28:58closed loop also when Chief Davis was

29:00speaking to me about

29:02about the control of the fire with not

29:03only the sprinkler system, but what we

29:05call and in the fire code is referenced

29:07as control areas within a building. So,

29:09you may have a space because those

29:10batteries are considered hazardous

29:12materials. They can't be but so many

29:14together before they had to be broken up

29:16within spaces in the building or pods if

29:18you would that are protected um

29:20by the sprinkler system and isolated to

29:22an area of the building.

29:23You got to remember these people have a

29:25billion dollars of equipment under that

29:26roof. They don't want a fire. They don't

29:28want any incidents. What they want that

29:30thing to keep running all the time. So,

29:33they're going to be have the most, you

29:34know,

29:35that's to lose if it does have an

29:37incident. So, they're going to work

29:38really hard to make sure it never

29:39happens.

29:40And we we feel we feel comfortable

29:43that we'll have a relationship with

29:44whoever if that it See, we're talking

29:46and you know, we don't even know. And I

29:48won't know until I have the plans in

29:49front of me. But I know we're going to

29:51request a lot of them.

29:54>> Are there any other types of system

29:56besides water-based systems that they

29:58could use that

30:00>> Yep. Like we have in this very building.

30:01We have UL

30:03200 systems, FM 200 systems that are

30:06clean agent based.

30:08If you remember the old it used to be

30:09Halon and then to halogen and now it's

30:12it's environmentally friendly chemicals

30:13that are used. We have them in the

30:14server rooms in this building. So, it's

30:17it's a gaseous that takes the oxygen out

30:18of the air and displaces it. It doesn't

30:20necessarily use the water.

30:23In addition to the sprinklers, it has

30:25the clean agent system.

30:28>> That might answer your concern about

30:30water.

30:34And is that just sort of standard now to

30:36go towards that type of system with IT

30:39equipment?

30:40>> is so it can be up and running. The

30:42water would destroy it where the clean

30:44agents would would allow it to to serve

30:45another day.

30:46>> Okay.

30:49>> Uh

30:50David, do you have you seen like we

30:52talked about the battery energy storage

30:53systems in the past. Or is that same

30:55type of system utilized there or what

30:57would be the response for you guys if

30:59something happened on a greater scale

31:01outside of the building?

31:02>> Yeah, on oh outside of the building? Um

31:05I don't know that that's um included but

31:08on the outside of the building um like a

31:09nighthawk system or something that

31:11you've seen in other areas of the

31:11country. I actually spoke to fire

31:13marshal in California about the system

31:15they had in place.

31:16Um and they have several layers of fire

31:19protection. Of course there's not

31:20sprinklers outside but they have uh

31:23detectors that that pick up early early

31:25signs of fire or smoke. Anything out of

31:28the ordinary to where the the power is

31:29de-energized and it's and it's you know

31:31these um battery storage systems are

31:33located in in like if you can imagine a

31:37semi-trailer truck type of box and

31:40they're contained within that. And

31:42they're separated from other um

31:45batteries so there's not a domino effect

31:46as we'd be concerned about that with the

31:48hear about the run off and the runaway

31:50thermal runaway. So those those are very

31:52possible. I mean I understand there may

31:54be uh

31:55some of those being looked at in Sharon

31:57Harris in the near future um battery

31:59storage system.

32:01But I'm not I hadn't seen anything on

32:02that.

32:03>> So as far as those detection systems

32:05like are they are they like super

32:07sensitive because I'm thinking that you

32:09know some areas out towards the lake

32:12are managed with prescribed fire. So if

32:15you have a really smoky fire where it it

32:18blows towards a data center, could there

32:21be like a false alarm trigger from one

32:23of these systems?

32:24>> Not that I've seen because and we have a

32:25similar system to that currently at um

32:29not Motiva but the Dixie pipeline has

32:31them for any any gas leak that they may

32:33have. They they've currently

32:35have those systems.

32:36They are ground level. They they look

32:38like a little metal box and they they

32:40shoot directly at the tanks. There's

32:41There's a

32:43I think it's 10 90,000 gallon bullet

32:45tanks that are along 55. If you If you

32:48go by it, you know on the left there.

32:49>> But it So that's not really near an area

32:51that's really regularly burned with fire

32:53to manage it.

32:54>> Right. But if you remember,

32:56yeah, we get that smoke all throughout

32:58Apex when that occurs.

32:59>> Even Even down from Canada, right?

33:01>> That's right. That's exactly right. Very

33:02true.

33:09>> So say if we do not have um

33:12a fire that we're dealing with, but you

33:14know, you're already saying that being

33:16spread a little thin and I know EMS is

33:18definitely spread thin in Wake County,

33:20but if we had a situation with um

33:22electrocution or

33:24something like that, what out at here in

33:27Harris, what what are we expecting for

33:30like um

33:31time response and

33:33um care, etc.?

33:37>> Well, I cannot speak on Wake County EMS

33:40behalf. However, our response time, you

33:43know, um

33:45Station 2 is right around the corner,

33:47right there at 3045 New Hill Holleman

33:49Road. Uh we're all trained at the EMT

33:52basic level.

33:53And we can handle We can do initial

33:56interventions until EMS arrives. We also

33:59do have a memorandum of understanding

34:01with Chatham County should should it be

34:04requested that we can

34:06pull a Chatham County EMS unit in

34:09for a paramedic service. We do that

34:11already

34:12currently in the 751-64 corridor.

34:23>> Make sure you're just talking into your

34:24microphones.

34:34>> Chief Day, uh what is the current

34:36service level like uh you guys just

34:37received a new certification for your

34:39ability to service this last summer,

34:40didn't you? Like a new credit

34:42accreditation or something like that?

34:43>> Yes, back in June we were

34:46uh um

34:47we maintained our ISO class one not only

34:51in town, but we improved our ISO class

34:53one

34:55Originally, we had an ISO class two

34:57rating in the rural district. We have

34:58since that has since became a one one.

35:02Uh so, we're

35:03one in the municipal district and we're

35:05also a class one ISO rated in the rural

35:08district. In addition, in August of this

35:11year we became

35:13internationally accredited through the

35:15Center of

35:16Public Safety Excellence.

35:25>> Are there questions?

35:27>> Um given just given the the popularity

35:29like

35:30uh data centers around, I think a lot of

35:31questions have come up about the

35:32potential for

35:34uh maybe hazardous air quality and

35:36things like that. I know some of that

35:38may be outside of your guys's purview or

35:40jurisdiction, but like how how would you

35:42guys respond in case of a a large

35:44emergency event that required some type

35:45of evacuation or anything like that?

35:48>> Well, we Well, I can't go into the

35:50details like like Sharon Harris, uh but

35:53we would we would

35:55emulate that plan um

35:57in working with

35:58not only county, but potentially state

36:00emergency management. Uh we already have

36:03a built a relationship with county

36:05emergency management. Uh there are

36:08already is an evacuation plan in place

36:11for Harris

36:12uh the Harris plan.

36:14Um and it would probably fall under that

36:16response zone.

36:17>> Okay.

36:19Are you aware of any

36:21particular emergency plans right now for

36:23any other types of uses in our

36:24jurisdiction?

36:26>> We have some for some of our other

36:27target hazards, but most of those like

36:31Fire Marshal Dillon

36:32alluded to, most of those you know, have

36:35the fire protection, you know, whether

36:37the fire eyes He referenced Dixie

36:40pipeline.

36:40>> Yeah.

36:41>> So, you You have the fire eyes down

36:42there.

36:43Motiva have global partners has the

36:45ability to sh- shut their tanks off, you

36:48know, so there are integrated safety

36:50measures within specific facilities.

36:53>> And you guys are part of those

36:54conversations. It's not just the Okay.

36:57>> Yeah, in fact for global partners, you

36:59know, we we have

37:00a foam trailer that

37:02we use down there if

37:05if needed.

37:07>> So at an earlier meeting when we were

37:10talking about

37:12the generators that they might have on

37:13site using like diesel.

37:16Um and

37:18hundreds of thousands of gallons of

37:20fuel.

37:21Is there a concern about that at all or

37:23is there an equivalent sort of situation

37:25in Apex now

37:27that has that many gallons of diesel

37:30fuel on site?

37:33>> There is multiple areas that have I

37:35mean, I just spoke of global partners. I

37:37mean, they've got

37:39you know, their bulk tank storage so

37:41they've got

37:43you know, diesel on site.

37:45Right right here in downtown LG Jordan

37:47Oil, they have diesel on site as well as

37:50propane.

37:51So yes, we do have other target hazards

37:54that that that have

37:57I don't know the exact amount for a data

37:59center as far as what would be on site

38:01for diesel.

38:03But we do have other facilities within

38:05the town that that have

38:09a high quantity of

38:10diesel.

38:12>> But just for reference like the one that

38:14was maybe going to be proposed, they

38:15would have it probably at least 500,000

38:17gallons of diesel on site for their

38:19services. So that's much less than than

38:21some of these other

38:22>> Oh yeah, it's it's definitely much less.

38:24So yeah, I was unaware of what they what

38:26they would have.

38:28Well, part of that would be, you know,

38:30going back to the containment, right? I

38:32mean, what

38:33what that looks like and without a plan

38:36I wouldn't I wouldn't even begin to want

38:38to

38:39speculate or speak on that.

38:42>> It would it be during the TRC review of

38:45say a potential rezoning or anything

38:47where you guys would have conversations

38:48about potentially needing additional

38:51vehicles or equipment with the developer

38:53applicant to serve say say it's a much

38:55larger facility than you anticipated or

38:56that we've seen.

39:00>> [laughter]

39:01>> Yes, I should have stayed up here for

39:02the question.

39:03Uh you said TRC, that's what started it

39:05off.

39:06>> I mean I know what David do.

39:08>> [laughter]

39:08>> So again, like I mentioned in the

39:10opening uh statement that we we contract

39:12with Raleigh HazMat.

39:14>> Okay.

39:14>> They've got uh not only do we contract

39:16with Raleigh HazMat as a as part of the

39:18regional response team. Yeah, there's a

39:20response team in Fayetteville, there's a

39:22response team in Greenville. Um and they

39:25they are the hazardous material experts.

39:27We are trained to the hazard HazMat

39:29operations level and that's most of the

39:31fire service in North Carolina unless

39:33you're on a um

39:35regional response team.

39:37>> Okay. So if there was any type of new

39:39development that came in that had some

39:40type of potential hazard, we would still

39:42work through that that avenue versus you

39:44guys purchasing new equipment?

39:46>> Correct.

39:47>> Okay.

39:47>> Correct.

39:47>> That helps.

39:49>> Well, I have heard that some data

39:51centers, depending on the size of them,

39:53actually bring in their own um service.

39:57So

39:59if that was such a thing and and it was

40:01a you know a high data center campus,

40:04what would that look like with you all

40:06working with another agency? I mean I

40:09know um with the airport,

40:13you know, that that's an example.

40:14>> Mhm.

40:15So working with other agencies, I mean

40:17most of the time I work with other

40:19agencies, it's been pretty seamless. Um

40:22our command structure would be a unified

40:24command where we would have a

40:25representative uh from that cleanup

40:28company, that mitigation company within

40:30the command post with us

40:32um and we would make a unified decision

40:35of

40:36the next steps. Um most of the time, you

40:39know, we we see it a lot with the

40:41railroad, they bring in a lot of lot of

40:43trucks if they have if there's a a rail

40:45accident. So and and you have to work

40:47with these individuals. Um

40:49it still remains, you know, an active

40:52scene, but the overall goal is to

40:55establish a unified command and be able

40:57to work together to to mitigate the

41:00incident.

41:06>> All right.

41:08Thank you so much.

41:09>> guys very much. Appreciate it.

41:13>> [clears throat]

41:14>> All right. Next we have our deputy

41:16police chief here to speak to us kind of

41:18about other other safety concerns we

41:19might have around data centers given

41:21especially also their popularity now.

41:23So, Trevor, thank you, sir.

41:30>> Will this load for me? I've seen mine,

41:32but

41:34do they get to see

41:36>> They get to see it, too, as well. Yeah.

41:37Um if you just tap the arrow.

41:40>> Hey.

41:40>> There you go.

41:42>> You guys doing well?

41:44I appreciate the the service to the

41:46community and what you're doing.

41:48My name's Trevor. I'm the deputy chief

41:50over at the police department. Last

41:51name's Modarreso. So, I typically just

41:54go by Trevor. It's easy for everybody. I

41:56don't like titles. So, deputy chief is

41:58the role that I serve, but come to you

42:00as Trevor to to represent the public

42:02safety on the police side of things.

42:05So, from our perspective, just a a few

42:08slides as well to cover just some

42:09general background and considerations

42:11that we would have should the town make

42:13the decision to move in the direction of

42:15bringing in a data center or removing in

42:17that that scope or control. So, ours is

42:20really kind of planning of

42:21preparedness-based since we don't have

42:23historical data that's relative to Apex

42:26that we would then align with from that

42:28kind of metric.

42:30We look at what we know today and

42:32essentially that we don't have one, so

42:33we don't have operating statistics or

42:35metrics to utilize to determine if we

42:38have to make some operational changes,

42:40what would occur within that scope.

42:43We would look at past and previous

42:45engagements. So, we'll look at somewhat

42:47of a of a two-phase perspective. One is

42:49the planning and then the

42:50implementation. So, we've already seen

42:53within the community in the the past

42:55discussion that occurred for the data

42:56center that was proposing to come to

42:58Apex that there definitely is a public

43:00sentiment, some of that being critical

43:03in nature. So, that brings a perspective

43:05from law enforcement to have to

43:07potentially become involved in in that

43:09scope. If we move to actually

43:12introducing and moving into construction

43:14approval and and that changes from a

43:17plan to a preparedness kind of scoper or

43:20capacity.

43:23We look at it as one facility, but it's

43:25somewhat bifurcated. So, you have the

43:27facility, the site, the vendor who's

43:29responsible for many of the security

43:32components, the operational

43:34responsibilities. You have the entire

43:36town of Apex which can become somewhat

43:38convoluted from one perspective, and

43:41then you have the police department and

43:42and dispatch that becomes a predominant

43:45communication source for the public.

43:47Everybody knows 911, and often that's

43:50utilized as that familiar source. Police

43:52department is a little bit different

43:53than than the fire department. We are

43:56part of CAM. So, if you call 911, that

43:59goes through the CAM agreement.

44:01Essentially, it's answered by a

44:03dispatcher in Cary through CAM. Soon as

44:06they determine that it's a police

44:07matter, it's transferred to the call

44:10center, the 911 center in the police

44:12department, and we handle our own. So,

44:14we handle our own call ingestion, and

44:17then also dispatching police resources

44:19out.

44:22So, one of the early predictions and and

44:25plans that we would have to do is the

44:26coordination of establishing goals and

44:28expectations from the law enforcement

44:31perspective with the vendor. It's a bit

44:32of a delicate dance. As fire kind of

44:35alluded to, they have a significant

44:37investment in their property, in their

44:40systems, in what's occurring within the

44:42buildings, and a lot of that is is very

44:45proprietary.

44:47We have the goal that if we have to plan

44:49to to come to a facility for some type

44:51of active or hostile event that's

44:53occurring, that we're not stopped

44:55essentially at the gate, that we have

44:57pretty seamless integration and access

44:59to the facility and building. That's not

45:01uncommon in a data center or other law

45:04enforcement. You go into a hospital,

45:06they want to control ingress and egress.

45:08They want to know who's on the property,

45:10where you're going, and why. So, it's

45:11something that we explore some of the

45:13options, often recognizing that they're

45:17going to want to limit access, for

45:18example, granting a security guard to

45:21provide us access, and we're going to

45:23try to negotiate and establish

45:26a better option than relying on somebody

45:29who may be um inconvenient or out of

45:33place. They might have priorities that

45:35are not coming to meet us at the gate

45:37and allow us to get in.

45:41>> [clears throat]

45:41>> Dispatch is is one of those structural

45:44things that we would look at is they're

45:46typically going to be the fielding

45:47source for a lot of questions, a lot of

45:49complaints, concerns that are related to

45:51the center.

45:53Much of that is in the introductory

45:54phase. Once it becomes normalized,

45:56people become familiar with it, that

45:59call volume goes down. So, there may be

46:01a a variance that we would see in the

46:03initial scope of having a center in town

46:06versus that long-term ongoing kind of

46:09perspective.

46:11Some of those things that we would

46:12highlight is is noise. You already spoke

46:14of generators, generators being used.

46:16There was a recent example where some

46:18communities had concern about long-term

46:21use of the generators, a power outage

46:23that wasn't rectified quickly, which

46:25created a lot of um

46:27what I I believe in the article was

46:29deemed some concerns related to fumes

46:31and noise and things from from that

46:33perspective.

46:34The volume of traffic, so it could be

46:36employee traffic, could be truck or

46:38industrial type of traffic. Variation

46:41there would be during the construction,

46:42obviously a heavy volume of that kind of

46:45truck traffic versus after they're open

46:48and operational, you're not seeing the

46:50the delivery extent like you would at

46:51some of the other facilities or a a

46:53retail hub or some of those kind of

46:55locations and an Amazon distribution

46:58center.

46:59There's environmental concerns that

47:01might come through our our dispatchers

47:05but then get routed to the appropriate

47:07or proper town department. Lighting,

47:10construction, and and just general

47:11safety concerns. So, our staff would

47:14just be versed and they already are in

47:16in really kind of identifying where the

47:18source for answering the question lies

47:21and and doing a good job in integrating

47:23the other town departments into that

47:25kind of scope.

47:26>> Trevor, real quick, do you want to

47:27advance these slides?

47:30>> Yeah, I'm tapping and you can

47:32you guys should you should call me out

47:33for that. That's terrible.

47:35>> [laughter]

47:35>> I'm just listening.

47:38>> For some reason when I started, you said

47:40it was here and then I thought it's on

47:41their computers right in front of them.

47:43So,

47:43thank

47:45Yeah, thank No, thank you for that. So,

47:47I'll do it from here. So, then it then

47:50it stays.

47:51So, I just did speak of a a bit of that

47:53traffic piece. Concentrated equipment,

47:56trucks, construction. It would be a

47:58large-scale project, not um something

48:01Apex and the surrounding communities not

48:04already familiar with. We have several

48:06areas where we're already seeing these

48:08constraints. It is one of the areas that

48:10when when the chief and I go into the

48:12community and talk with localized

48:14environments, we have a program called

48:16Chat with the Chiefs where we want to

48:17come to the the group. It could be a a

48:19neighborhood, it could be a business.

48:21Those two examples may have very

48:23different concerns they want to talk to

48:25us about. So, we don't want to allow one

48:27to demand all of the time and questions.

48:30So, traffic is one that applies to

48:32everybody. There's concerns related to

48:35the local, Apex, Wake County,

48:38regionally, and statewide. North

48:40Carolina's popular. I'm a transplant.

48:42Please don't hold it against me. I came

48:44from Colorado 3 years ago and and can

48:46already see the the changes in that. The

48:49roadways and the infrastructure doesn't

48:51get established until there's a need.

48:53They can't The funding doesn't support

48:54that. So, we would see that kind of

48:56constraint that exists. The benefit from

48:59my perspective within the town is that

49:02the police department is integrated with

49:04traffic planning and engineering. It's a

49:06prong of that. We are really the

49:08enforcement and the the education side

49:11of it, but the town does a really good

49:12job of integrating us into that public

49:15safety consideration about what is a

49:17roadway potentially going to cause for

49:18traffic congestion and accidents and

49:21mitigation things of that nature. So,

49:24it would certainly vary as most data

49:26centers are not going to be long-term

49:29high vehicular traffic. They're somewhat

49:31self-sufficient in comparison to a large

49:35care scale or large acreage environment,

49:38say a uh

49:40high-density Beaver Creek Commons where

49:42you're seeing a lot of uh smaller um

49:45private-owned vehicle kind of traffic.

49:49The fire department talked about a lot

49:51of the the responses it relates to say

49:54normalized concerns, the the fire, the

49:56hazardous kind of

49:58um material issues that may arise. They

50:01did a good job of covering really that's

50:03their bread and butter. That's the world

50:05they live in. Police don't respond in

50:07the hazardous material kind of scope or

50:09perspective. What we do is create that

50:11secondary

50:13um

50:14public safety response gap. So, we're

50:16isolating the area so they can work

50:18within the facility. We're doing

50:19evacuation so they can focus on the

50:21problem if it is fire-based. If we're

50:24helping with the evacuations, it allows

50:26them to dedicate resources, tools, and

50:28equipment to actually fighting the fire

50:30or that kind of thing. Traffic control

50:33is a is an issue. Specialized equipment

50:36becomes much smaller in scale. We don't

50:39operate in the type of equipment that

50:41the fire department would and because of

50:43our response uh

50:45roles,

50:46we don't have the need for a lot of

50:48those. There are some small ones.

50:50And the question was asked earlier if if

50:53or when fire would get into discussion

50:55about additional tools or equipment that

50:57were needed in the kind of the planning

50:59phase, we would say the same thing as to

51:01sit down and get more familiar with

51:03those specifics. We have respirators,

51:05for example. EQ was mentioned earlier.

51:08EQ was the example, I'll say on a

51:10national scale, that really brought some

51:12type of PPE or that personal protective

51:15equipment to frontline police officers.

51:18So, all of our officers are are issued

51:20gas masks, as an example. Doesn't apply

51:23to this. That's not a tool or a piece of

51:25equipment that would in general apply to

51:28that. It could, depending on the threat

51:30or the circumstance that we're

51:31responding to.

51:33For example, a gas mask, if you have

51:35protests where

51:37where substances are being used that we

51:39need to be in a gas, or we're deploying

51:41to disperse a crowd, we're utilizing

51:44chemical agents to basically disperse a

51:47a crowd or a riot that basically is no

51:49longer a peaceful protest, we would have

51:51that kind of equipment, but not to the

51:53scale that you would normally think of

51:55from a hazardous material perspective.

52:01One of the considerations is security,

52:03and what goes with security is false

52:06alarms.

52:07Our average false alarm ratio is over

52:1099%. So, we fielded a lot of alarm

52:13calls,

52:14and 99% of those are false alarms. So,

52:18we're currently working just town-wide.

52:20It's not It's not related to the

52:21downtown center, but we're working

52:23within the police department on some

52:24models and options that allow us to to

52:26mitigate that, so that it's a heavy

52:29manpower burden when we're sending

52:31repeatedly

52:33um officers to false alarms that are

52:35typically or known to be false alarms.

52:37So, that would just be something that's

52:39built into that model is we know that

52:41that they're going to have a a large

52:43alarm presence and posture,

52:46and that we would work with that to to

52:49try to identify the ways that we ensure

52:51that we're not responding to false

52:52alarms. And

52:55access is something I mentioned earlier.

52:57So, they're responsible for the routine

53:00access, ingress, egress, checking in,

53:03allowances, who's on the property that

53:05should be. Where it then transitions is

53:07through good partnerships and

53:09relationships. Most of these have site

53:11security where if there's suspicious

53:14sus-

53:15excuse me, suspicious activity,

53:17they're going to notify us and then

53:19we're going to respond to that like any

53:21any typical call for service. A resident

53:23calls and sees somebody out of place, a

53:25business calls or notifies us that

53:27something doesn't seem right. We'll

53:28handle those.

53:30Those are typically not a commonality

53:33that you see in other communities that

53:34have data centers. Outside of that scope

53:37I talked about a little bit earlier, if

53:39there's public

53:41uh

53:43complaint to them, if there's something

53:45that's occurring that's drawing interest

53:47and and scrutiny, you may see that in a

53:49smaller or more localized environment.

53:51You don't see that in the in the

53:53continual day-to-day. From the law

53:55enforcement perspective, I would compare

53:56that to say retail shopping.

54:00Every time a a vendor is open, a big box

54:03store, a Target, Home Depot, Lowe's,

54:05there there's a potential that they have

54:07shoplifting. So, the demand on law

54:10enforcement is constant. We work those

54:12partnerships to try to reduce that type

54:15of demand on us through networking and

54:17integration with their loss prevention

54:19staff. Similarly, we would we would have

54:21that kind of partnership and

54:23relationship with the data center.

54:25And because law enforcement operates in

54:28a 24/7 capacity, we're established and

54:30set to respond to any of those type of

54:32criminal episodes or events around the

54:34clock.

54:38So, it puts us in a phase where the town

54:40is still considering whether we want to

54:42move in that direction. So, it puts us

54:44in a in a pause point where

54:47we have not yet gone out and done a lot

54:49of data research and collection to deem

54:52the the impact that may occur. The

54:54caveat there is that it may occur

54:56because some, like Loudoun County as

54:58mentioned before,

54:59this is a common thing. It's accepted

55:01there and and you're not going to see

55:03the type of demands on maybe some other

55:05locations where the community is not as

55:07supportive of that type of operation

55:10within their jurisdiction. So, we have

55:12some locally

55:14that we certainly can get called

55:16dispositions, call frequency, the type

55:18of impact that it has both from a

55:21historical

55:22historical perspective when it was being

55:25built, development, construction versus

55:27when it's then operational. What the

55:29market kind of operates, there's

55:30consistency generally across the board

55:33to see what other jurisdictions are

55:34experiencing from

55:36from that kind of response model and

55:38comparing facilities.

55:41So, what we would look at from

55:44a a planning ahead perspective before

55:47kind of coming to a proposal is the

55:49emergency entry, so working with the

55:51development and trying to determine

55:53where is our access points from an

55:55emergency response model.

55:57What kind of physical and site security

56:00are they planning or would they have in

56:01place?

56:02That alarm component, alarm

56:04infrastructure that they're going to

56:05utilize, reliance on private party

56:08sources to monitor that, and then

56:10coordination with law enforcement if

56:12there is an activation and a police

56:14response that's needed. Traffic

56:16management, again, very different in the

56:19in the construction phase and the

56:21operational phase.

56:22Incident plans, appreciate your asking

56:25about incident plans. It does make a

56:27difference. This is one of those where

56:29the town actually has a a fairly robust

56:33threat matrix and partnerships with our

56:35regional, our state, and our federal

56:36partners. Apex is not um

56:40new to the threat consideration

56:42component. Dixie pipeline is an example

56:45where a terrorist attack, that's a high

56:47value kind of threat target. Actually,

56:50some relatively low context as as it is

56:54placement-wise. So, just as an example

56:56from a police perspective, it's

56:58centrally located and it's not isolated.

57:01It's it's right off 55, so accessibility

57:04is there. The train coming through is

57:06one of those, the amount of hazardous

57:08materials that come through town and

57:11through downtown right through the heart

57:12of Apex every single day.

57:14So, we have those plans. It's a matter

57:16of just refining those because the data

57:19center typically doesn't hit the same

57:21value or tier scale that some of these

57:23other higher value threats do.

57:25And then follow up metrics is is working

57:28the dispositions afterwards to to

57:30basically modify and adjust if we if we

57:32would need to. So, from our perspective

57:35really comes to

57:36planning early and and being prepared

57:38for it and being able to account for any

57:40impact that it may occur both through

57:43the discussions and the public forums as

57:45if we're considering to go in that

57:46direction if it if it does draw out some

57:49interest from

57:50from groups that are both in favor of or

57:53not supportive of it

57:55through the development phase and then

57:57the actual operational phase.

58:00I'm done with slides. I think I caught

58:02back up to to have you guys actually see

58:05them.

58:06Any questions or

58:08information I didn't share for you?

58:11>> Um in in the beginning are are is the

58:13police department generally involved in

58:15in during the planning stage like the

58:17fire department would be in in making

58:19sure that uh

58:21you know, they know what's going on with

58:22the facility.

58:24>> Yes and no.

58:25So, what we don't have is fire code. So,

58:28law enforcement unfortunately has never

58:31developed fire code. I would like to

58:33have it for example in the building of a

58:35school is to have the ability to

58:37influence how we isolate areas of a

58:40school so that if there is attack, we

58:42minimize the potential accessibility to

58:44our to our students and our staff. So,

58:46we don't have fire code in that regard.

58:49From Apex's perspective coming out of

58:51Colorado in 24 years, what I would say

58:53though is we are very involved in the

58:56conversation and the planning. So, we

58:58might not have a code to rely on, but we

59:00have a relationship within town where

59:02all the various town departments have us

59:05at the table.

59:06So, we're able to converse in that and

59:08share some influence for sure.

59:12>> So, first off, where in Colorado?

59:15>> Boulder, the Denver the I worked in the

59:16Denver metro area.

59:18Okay. So the south yeah, very very

59:21familiar with Littleton.

59:22>> We've been here 30 years. Um

59:25so I have a question regards to there's

59:28game lands right there.

59:29Um and we are talking about if there was

59:31a potential attack. Um

59:34how would we

59:36and this is very broad. How would we

59:38consider taking that in for an emergency

59:41perspective

59:42um with open game lands right there next

59:44to something like a data center as far

59:46as protection or

59:47>> To to make sure I kind of answer the

59:49question, give me context of where you

59:51think the game lands is going to be a

59:52component of an attack on

59:56>> Say it's a terrorist attack and they're

59:58pretending to be hunters.

1:00:00>> Okay.

1:00:01>> And so therefore they're coming in from

1:00:02the game lands.

1:00:03>> Sure.

1:00:04So from a data center perspective, our

1:00:06thought wouldn't be that they're going

1:00:07to utilize that open land to have

1:00:10a larger scale attack.

1:00:13Covert approach. If it's a terrorist

1:00:16attack, our thoughts would be more to

1:00:19barriers and restrictions to accessing

1:00:21the actual building.

1:00:24>> [clears throat]

1:00:24>> So a vehicle born bomb

1:00:26would be more of a likelihood if the

1:00:28data center was the target of a

1:00:30terrorist attack in that nature versus

1:00:32that open space and and them either

1:00:34hiding or moving through that open

1:00:36space. So we're going to look at

1:00:37bollards and physical security that

1:00:39exists within the development of that.

1:00:41How does anybody access the property?

1:00:43Are there gates? Or is there fencing?

1:00:45What's the standoff from their property

1:00:48line to where the building is and then

1:00:50access within the building?

1:00:52What is what is more of a threat from

1:00:54I'll say a a terrorist type of scope or

1:00:56perspective is really more cyber based.

1:00:59Is

1:01:00>> [clears throat]

1:01:01>> gaining access to attack what exists

1:01:03within the building from the the network

1:01:05and infrastructure that's actually

1:01:07there. So terrorist from our perspective

1:01:10is going to be more more cyber focused

1:01:12than physical threat focused like a

1:01:15Dixie pipeline or something of that

1:01:17nature.

1:01:18>> Okay.

1:01:19And then um another question, you know,

1:01:21these data centers are going up so fast

1:01:23and they're changing so quickly and a

1:01:25lot of times it is um somebody from a

1:01:27different area coming in to build this.

1:01:30Say they left a skeleton behind and have

1:01:33moved on because the technology has

1:01:35changed and we have an empty campus. Um

1:01:40I guess what is the police presence look

1:01:42like for that if we're getting calls

1:01:45that, you know, vandalism and other

1:01:46things are happening. Um

1:01:48I mean it regular

1:01:51response time. I mean, you were talking

1:01:52about the 99% alarm rate and stuff. I

1:01:55was just curious.

1:01:56>> Sure.

1:01:58Well, I'd put us I'd put a selfish plug

1:01:59in there and say the police department

1:02:01is looking for a new facility cuz we've

1:02:02outgrown the building. [laughter]

1:02:04These places are huge, so we could have

1:02:06we could have a regional training center

1:02:08and that kind of thing. Not that I Not

1:02:09that I want them to come and then and

1:02:11then leave so that we can take over the

1:02:12the building.

1:02:14What What that really comes down to is

1:02:16again partnerships. They're still an

1:02:17owner. So, if you're talking about a

1:02:19data center that essentially builds a

1:02:20very large and complex building,

1:02:23predominately I'm This is not my space,

1:02:25but the assumption being that the the

1:02:27actual design and construction of the

1:02:29building is fairly specific, so

1:02:31renovations and changes

1:02:33might be a a a difficult thing.

1:02:36They're still an owner of the property.

1:02:38They're still an owner of the business.

1:02:39It's something we've we've dealt with I

1:02:41would say more from my perspective in

1:02:42Colorado. Particularly the amount of

1:02:44time I was there in economic downturns

1:02:46where you had major office space

1:02:49large-scale buildings that were vacant

1:02:51in nature is working with the property

1:02:54owner on the front end

1:02:56to have trespass orders and and response

1:02:58plans, maintaining the the the security

1:03:02presence. They're responsible for

1:03:04graffiti and and people breaking in and

1:03:07things of that nature from a primary

1:03:09prevention perspective. We certainly do

1:03:12proactive patrols and drive through the

1:03:14area, but we also we also serve an

1:03:16entire community.

1:03:18So, then if there was a criminal event,

1:03:20is actually working with them that

1:03:21they're reporting it to us. We we have

1:03:23the ability to to investigate it like we

1:03:26do all of those what we would say is a

1:03:29reactionary call for service. So

1:03:30something occurs, they call us, they

1:03:32give us information, then we go into a

1:03:34into an investigative posture or

1:03:36response plan versus a proactive kind of

1:03:40response, which is much more our

1:03:42preference. There's there's studies and

1:03:44research that just demonstrate that when

1:03:46a police department is proactive, when

1:03:48you see police cars doing traffic stops

1:03:51and you see them active in the

1:03:53community, it directly deters crime and

1:03:56you see crime drop. When you see

1:03:58departments that are not proactive, that

1:04:00could be because they're so busy,

1:04:02they're on calls, they don't have that

1:04:04proactive influence.

1:04:07It's not their culture. You'll see that

1:04:09that

1:04:10respond in a in a higher

1:04:12crime trend.

1:04:14The the average that that Wake County

1:04:16has been seeing is about 2% growth with

1:04:18a 7% growth in crime

1:04:21Wake County-wide. So you're seeing a

1:04:24higher increase in or disproportionate

1:04:27increase in crime over growth,

1:04:30which is density-based, which is as you

1:04:32bring in population, you start to see

1:04:34other other things occur where there's

1:04:37an expansion of of crime.

1:04:41>> So

1:04:42what going back to the game land thing,

1:04:45I mean just inherently

1:04:47in this area, if you saw a person

1:04:49walking around with a gun, even though

1:04:50they might have you know, they have a

1:04:52permit to be there, they're allowed to

1:04:54shoot there, do you think that a

1:04:57facility may

1:04:58see that and then call for service,

1:05:01there's a suspicious person walking

1:05:03around with a gun?

1:05:05>> Yeah, certainly and it's actually

1:05:06something that happens quite frequently.

1:05:08Just just today we received a call of of

1:05:11a shooting that occurred. So in Apex or

1:05:14in North Carolina, we have territorial

1:05:16jurisdiction. It's a bit different than

1:05:18I'm used to from a Colorado perspective

1:05:20where my jurisdiction, I owned

1:05:21everything within that area. Here,

1:05:24there's pockets and gaps where it's

1:05:25actually still the county. So, you would

1:05:27have sheriff jurisdiction in certain

1:05:29areas. And you would have allowances

1:05:32that are different. You can't discharge

1:05:33a firearm in the town limits. If you

1:05:36happen to be in one of those areas where

1:05:38you're in the county, you can still

1:05:40shoot, you can still hunt, you can still

1:05:42do some of those things. So, it is not

1:05:44uncommon for us to receive calls

1:05:47where somebody sees a gun, there it's

1:05:49open carry or they're shooting. Those

1:05:51are more often than not on the periphery

1:05:55where we respond and either we, because

1:05:57of of extraterritorial jurisdictional

1:06:00allowances within a mile, we're allowed

1:06:02to go out there and have legal police

1:06:04authority or influence.

1:06:05Or we coordinate and work with the

1:06:07sheriff's department to determine that

1:06:08yes, there's a person, they are they do

1:06:10have a gun, but it's it's lawful.

1:06:12They're within their constitutional

1:06:14right or they're within a hunting

1:06:15allowance or something along those

1:06:17lines. So, we wouldn't we wouldn't be

1:06:20surprised to have a facility

1:06:23not unique to a data center who calls

1:06:25and says, "Hey, I I abut a large area

1:06:28where

1:06:29I have there's somebody out there,

1:06:30they're hunting, they're they're doing

1:06:31something along those lines where a

1:06:33firearm is present."

1:06:41>> Any other questions from the group or

1:06:43Bruce?

1:06:44>> Um any any new data about there's a lot

1:06:47of negative sentiment towards these type

1:06:48of uses across the country. Have there

1:06:50been any rises in vandalism or crime

1:06:52towards these that have popped up in any

1:06:54of the literature or any news?

1:06:57>> It uh what I would say is it's a

1:06:58constant and it's something that law

1:07:00enforcement responds to on a on a

1:07:02regular basis. It's It's very similar.

1:07:04There's been a lot of leading up to this

1:07:07election, there was a tremendous amount

1:07:09of consternation that was shared with us

1:07:11from from residents in the community. I

1:07:12want to feel safe when I go to the to to

1:07:15vote.

1:07:17Uh

1:07:18we've we've seen dynamics that that with

1:07:21law enforcement. George Floyd was an

1:07:23example that it happened in a localized

1:07:25event. It created a nationwide kind of

1:07:27response where there was riding and

1:07:29protest and things of that nature. So,

1:07:31what you see more with with the data

1:07:33center is a localized and a shorter term

1:07:36kind of consideration. You have a

1:07:37community that that is non-supportive of

1:07:40it you or a group that comes in they're

1:07:41non-supportive of it you're going to see

1:07:43that kind of localized event. Our

1:07:45response is to ensure everybody's

1:07:47allowed their constitutional freedom.

1:07:49So, if we're talking about a protest or

1:07:51we're talking about somebody's rights to

1:07:53come and share their opinion, we're

1:07:55we're there to ensure that it's done

1:07:57lawfully. Not that you get to stand on

1:07:59this

1:08:00this agenda or this stance for or

1:08:03against that's not the role of law

1:08:05enforcement. The role of it is that it

1:08:06meets the legal standards and the

1:08:09constitutional freedoms. So, there may

1:08:11be an occasion

1:08:13where it is a lawful [clears throat]

1:08:14peaceful protest

1:08:16for or against a data center. Our job is

1:08:18going to be to respond to ensure that it

1:08:20it occurs safely. And then if it crosses

1:08:23a legal boundary to communicate that.

1:08:26And if we if we need to intervene at at

1:08:29some point. The intervention is more

1:08:30often than not at the point where it

1:08:32becomes a public safety risk. So, is

1:08:34that and and okay.

1:08:39>> Um

1:08:40to to the extent that

1:08:41>> [clears throat]

1:08:42>> you've got any data and I don't know

1:08:44whether you do, but if

1:08:47for example, if protests and stuff,

1:08:48would you foresee that happening more or

1:08:50during the construction or initial phase

1:08:53of development of the project or

1:08:56subsequently to to after it's been built

1:09:00put in service.

1:09:01>> I I haven't researched protests related

1:09:04specifically to data centers and then

1:09:06tracked through

1:09:08whether it's planning based

1:09:11the implementation or the operational

1:09:13phase.

1:09:14I would be inclined to say that you're

1:09:16going to see that wane over time. Right

1:09:19now you're seeing or

1:09:21in Apex you saw an interest increase

1:09:25when there was a discussion about it. We

1:09:27didn't get to the decision of of

1:09:29implementation,

1:09:31so don't know what it would have looked

1:09:33like, whether that would have continued,

1:09:34whether whether that would have waned or

1:09:37or dissipated over time. Our issue is is

1:09:41being in tune, so we have a very

1:09:44a very sound system both in the

1:09:46department with our our intel analyst

1:09:49and some of our intel processes

1:09:52that then go outside the building to

1:09:53again the the region, the state, across

1:09:56the country to determine what's being

1:09:58shared, scrubbing and scanning social

1:10:00media, determining if there's plans, and

1:10:02that that's that's daily business in law

1:10:05enforcement. Um

1:10:07Just an example is the the volume of

1:10:10street takeovers. You have these car

1:10:11clubs where you have these groups that

1:10:14impromptu decide to show up at a

1:10:16location and take it over. There's fight

1:10:19clubs where they're doing the same

1:10:20thing, and the plan is to to have

1:10:22organized fights, and it it creates all

1:10:24kinds of

1:10:25um problems, particularly localized for

1:10:27that business, that neighborhood, that

1:10:29community there.

1:10:30Um

1:10:31So, for example, there was one that was

1:10:33posted. The intent was to to be at our

1:10:35Costco. It's easy access off of 64. You

1:10:38have major routes to come into it.

1:10:40Costco closes at 9:30, so it's a great

1:10:42big parking lot. So, when we got that

1:10:44intel, we we developed a response plan

1:10:47that essentially was we were going to be

1:10:48there ahead of time and ensure that any

1:10:50organizer and any participant knew that

1:10:52we were not there to to have a

1:10:54conversation. We were there to ensure

1:10:55that it didn't occur. So, same same kind

1:10:58of um

1:11:00processes would occur in just analyzing

1:11:03and being very

1:11:04uh up to speed on the intel and the tone

1:11:06and and context of the community.

1:11:09We want people to share their their

1:11:11thoughts, their concerns, their

1:11:12opinions. Goes back to that protest

1:11:14piece of peaceful protest is showing up.

1:11:16Could be on town hall campus

1:11:19to share what their thoughts and

1:11:20concerns are. It's just a matter of

1:11:21ensuring that they understand where that

1:11:24lawful standard lies, and then and then

1:11:27communicating them. We've had really

1:11:29good luck where most of those

1:11:31um

1:11:32are are organized based. We will reach

1:11:34out ahead of time to the organizer,

1:11:36introduce ourselves, ask if there's a

1:11:38point of contact. More often than not,

1:11:40it is the organizer. And then we just

1:11:42start that that conversation before the

1:11:44event ever occurs. And historically,

1:11:47that works. Not just localized, but in

1:11:50law enforcement, that that rather that

1:11:52works rather well. Now, there are some

1:11:54things that can be a tender box.

1:11:56And we don't have as much success in in

1:11:59that kind of approach, but historically,

1:12:02this kind of this kind of dynamic would

1:12:04fall within that. We get intel, we

1:12:07monitor it, we work with the organizer,

1:12:08we're communicating, they're well aware

1:12:10of of what they're allowed to do

1:12:14and what our what our response model

1:12:16looks like. So,

1:12:23>> Great. Thank you so much, driver.

1:12:25>> You're most welcome.

1:12:26>> Appreciate it.

1:12:28>> Right. So, um just a couple things to go

1:12:30over real quick. Um we'll be having two

1:12:33resident call meetings this month as

1:12:35well as normal. So, they'll be on the

1:12:3611th and the 18th. So, those will be at

1:12:39around lunchtime. Those are the

1:12:40opportunities for residents to call in

1:12:42and provide input on this presentation

1:12:44or other data center related items.

1:12:48Um we do not have a meeting scheduled

1:12:50for December. You guys are on break for

1:12:52December. And we will meet up again in

1:12:54January. I believe it's January 13th is

1:12:56the date. Um at that meeting, and

1:12:59probably before then, you will probably

1:13:01start receiving emails from Nora and

1:13:03myself just with some materials to start

1:13:05reading over or looking at. They'll

1:13:06probably be UDO related text, but we'll

1:13:08go over all that at the January meeting

1:13:09as well. Um there will be an opportunity

1:13:12where your subcommittee member at

1:13:14Kimberly here will go over some of the

1:13:17um

1:13:17we talked about the specialized manual

1:13:19for efficiency standards for data

1:13:21centers that have come out become more

1:13:22standard. Um she'll be kind of giving us

1:13:24a brief overview of that at the January

1:13:25meeting as well. And we'll start to

1:13:27incorporate some of those things maybe

1:13:28into our standards that we can as we

1:13:30move forward.

1:13:32>> So, Bruce, I have have a question and

1:13:34and also just so we have this on record,

1:13:36too. Is there a way starting in that

1:13:38January meeting that we can um

1:13:41agree and and support to answer some of

1:13:45the the questions that we've had from

1:13:47other meetings. Um I definitely

1:13:50appreciated everybody that's come and

1:13:51talked to us, but I think there's a lot

1:13:52of questions that have been

1:13:54in our minds or have been brought up

1:13:56that we've not been able to sit down and

1:13:58and have a round table um whether it's a

1:14:00work session or or whatnot to talk about

1:14:03all of those things.

1:14:04>> Yep. So, we're we're we're pretty much

1:14:06done with the the more official formal

1:14:08presentation part of it. There will be

1:14:10members that are going to come back in

1:14:11and speak to us, especially as we are

1:14:14doing some of the drafting around

1:14:15specific things. Um our water resources

1:14:17director John and Jacob will probably be

1:14:18one for sure. I talked to him today.

1:14:19He'll be coming back in later on to talk

1:14:21to us again. Um and can maybe Kathy

1:14:24Moyer with the electric as well to have

1:14:25further conversation with members who

1:14:26also work here, but we can set the

1:14:28agenda however you like to have those

1:14:30discussions. It's Our meetings going

1:14:31forward are going to be a lot of a lot

1:14:33of discussions. And so, if there's

1:14:34outstanding questions, absolutely,

1:14:36that's the time to to address them.

1:14:39>> Um Bruce, I want to double-check the

1:14:41resident [clears throat] call on the

1:14:4211th. That's Veteran's Day. Oh, no.

1:14:44We're not in

1:14:45>> I will reschedule. I will reschedule.

1:14:47I'll make sure there's two meetings that

1:14:48day. It might be a different um day of

1:14:50the week, but we'll have a second

1:14:51meeting.

1:14:52>> Thank you.

1:14:58>> I've I've got a uh something that

1:15:00sort of hit me uh over the weekend uh

1:15:03when I was reading a little bit about

1:15:05the Raleigh data center issues. Um

1:15:09Our focus so far has been on

1:15:14uh

1:15:14the electricity consumption and as

1:15:17determining the size of the facility.

1:15:20Um

1:15:2110 50 100 MW.

1:15:24I'm I'm wondering whether we also might

1:15:28should consider the size of the the

1:15:31square footage of the of the building

1:15:34as well.

1:15:34>> So, some some jurisdictions are going to

1:15:36kind of look at that. I I don't know if

1:15:38it's as representative of the potential

1:15:41impacts.

1:15:42>> I'm not sure we should we should forego

1:15:45the electric consumption. I'm I'm

1:15:46thinking that maybe we need to have

1:15:49something in there talking about the

1:15:50size square footage as well.

1:15:54>> I I think we we can definitely have some

1:15:56time by square footage. Um

1:16:00my thought process too was given we

1:16:02we'll we'll revisit this again in when

1:16:03we're talking about kind of site layout

1:16:05as well. We we discussed having a very

1:16:07large site that's required for for these

1:16:09heavier intensive uses which would have

1:16:11the higher demands of electricity and

1:16:13things like that. So, um we can we can

1:16:15actually talk about square footage. Um

1:16:17I'll look at Ro- Raleigh is did you just

1:16:19you read an article about Raleigh

1:16:20recently?

1:16:21>> It was it was online over the weekend

1:16:24about a data center that was able to

1:16:28sneak through their moratorium because

1:16:30they

1:16:31filed their request, you know, a week or

1:16:33so before.

1:16:34>> Oh, really?

1:16:35>> And they were going to be putting in I

1:16:36think it was a 100 square foot

1:16:39data center.

1:16:40>> 100 square feet?

1:16:41>> 100,000 square feet. Excuse me. Excuse

1:16:44me.

1:16:45>> Yeah.

1:16:46>> Left out a few numbers there.

1:16:48But I I you know, that that's that's a

1:16:51pretty big facility. Uh

1:16:53But I

1:16:54you know, there was no mention of of

1:16:56what kind of electric consumption that

1:16:57they were talking about there. So, uh

1:17:00>> For for us normally in land use, we the

1:17:02size of the building is what we would

1:17:04look at and also the intensity of the

1:17:05use. And so, it we're used to doing

1:17:07that. The data center was a new aspect

1:17:09because given the redundancies that

1:17:11they'd have to have for power. So, like

1:17:13100 generators on site then we're like,

1:17:15"Okay, so

1:17:16how much power you actually going to

1:17:18need? Are you going to have these

1:17:19redundancies?" Is kind of where we

1:17:20started moving towards that that tier

1:17:22system, yeah.

1:17:24But it's not off the table. We'll we'll

1:17:25have we can have conversation and

1:17:27language about that as well.

1:17:29>> I think we just have to be careful cuz

1:17:30square footage becomes a numbers game.

1:17:33>> It it it does.

1:17:34>> And then it's uh well, you know, I'm 2

1:17:36square feet under whatever and even if

1:17:39it's a

1:17:40>> So so does a megawatt size, too, I mean.

1:17:42>> Sure.

1:17:43>> As as technology tends to advance

1:17:45though, it gets it's smaller, they can

1:17:46fit more into these spaces drawing more

1:17:48power. So, yeah.

1:17:50>> Well, I'm I'm thinking that that

1:17:53at some point in the not too distant

1:17:54future, they're going to be coming up

1:17:55with uh

1:17:57the ability to to have more consumption,

1:18:01more more data

1:18:02uh

1:18:04with less power.

1:18:07>> Yeah, I mean quantum computing is a

1:18:09thing.

1:18:09>> Silicon is silicon requires a lot of

1:18:12a lot of energy consumption to to

1:18:14produce all that

1:18:16Yeah, all that power

1:18:18uh

1:18:19capabilities and I'm I'm

1:18:22I feel certain that we're going to be

1:18:23coming up with something in the not too

1:18:25distant future that will reduce the need

1:18:28for for silicon-based

1:18:30uh computing power.

1:18:33>> That'd be fascinating, yeah.

1:18:34>> And that would be that would be nice.

1:18:37For sure, yeah.

1:18:39>> But will capitalism let it happen?

1:18:41>> I I that's

1:18:45Somebody can make a buck, they will,

1:18:46yeah.

1:18:50>> Those are those are the updates I have

1:18:52for you guys at the moment. Um thank you

1:18:53again to our speakers. Really appreciate

1:18:55you guys' time. We know you guys work

1:18:56long hard hours

1:18:58um as well. So, um if there's no other

1:19:00questions or anything like that, we can

1:19:01go ahead

1:19:02>> Do you think one of the the meetings

1:19:04with the public, I I know I I do

1:19:07understand why you you have to do it at

1:19:08lunchtime, but do you think maybe in the

1:19:10new year we could do one maybe in the

1:19:12evening just to see if there's more

1:19:14people that get on with opinions and

1:19:16thoughts?

1:19:17>> So, I I I did reach out to higher higher

1:19:19levels in the town and our

1:19:21I thought right now is

1:19:23we are able to accept emails at any time

1:19:25and we're not getting a lot of comment

1:19:27or emails from there. There's also you

1:19:29know, people can attend these meetings,

1:19:30they can they can attend the two calls,

1:19:32they can come to our EAB. We haven't had

1:19:34a lot of interaction there. So,

1:19:36dedicating more staff time to in the

1:19:38evening, which would be

1:19:40additional time outside of normal work

1:19:41period, is not something they want to

1:19:43pursue at this time. I I had

1:19:44>> That makes sense. That makes sense.

1:19:45Okay.

1:19:47>> And I had communicated that to the

1:19:48residents on the call already, too.

1:19:49>> Okay. Okay.

1:19:51I wasn't aware of that part.

1:19:52>> Oh, sure.

1:19:53>> Thank you.

1:19:53>> No problem.

1:19:54>> Yeah.

1:19:58All right. Anything else from the group

1:20:01tonight?

1:20:04All right. So, do we need a motion to

1:20:06adjourn?

1:20:07>> Yeah.

1:20:08>> All right. Motion to adjourn?

1:20:10>> I move we adjourn.

1:20:11>> Second. All right. All in favor?

1:20:14>> Aye.

1:20:15>> All right. We are adjourned. Thank you

1:20:17very much, everybody.

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