2026-09-28 - Municipal and Legislative Operations Committee

00:05Good evening. [clears throat]

00:08Welcome to the uh municipal and

00:11legislative operations standing

00:13committee meeting. This is uh September

00:1628, 2026

00:18and u

00:21we will be discussing about the charters

00:23specifically today. And I'd like to uh

00:27have

00:30uh my

00:33uh clerk to take the roll call.

00:37>> Councilors Bergman, Rosen

00:40>> here,

00:40>> and chairperson councelor Mitra

00:42>> here.

00:43>> Thank you.

00:45>> So to to my right [clears throat] I have

00:47uh councelor Rosen who is the vice chair

00:49of this committee. Uh, councelor Bergman

00:52is not in yet, but he might be coming in

00:54a little bit late. Along with me, also

00:57we have city clerk uh, Nikico Vangeli

01:00and also the city solicitor Alexander

01:03Kalcunius. So, our clerking today with

01:07us is AJ Ple and um, I'd like uh, uh,

01:12clerk to go ahead and explain the

01:14virtual attendee call in information,

01:16please.

01:17>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, pursuant to

01:19chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and in

01:22order to ensure active public

01:23engagement, the city of Wester currently

01:25allows for both in-person and remote

01:27participation at its meetings. To

01:29partake in the meeting, you can either

01:30come into the meeting location or you

01:32can join via Zoom. The Zoom link is

01:34listed on the agenda for this meeting.

01:36It's also on the Granus portal. Uh

01:39there's also a phone number and

01:40tonight's phone number is 16468287666.

01:45Uh we are also taking this opportunity

01:47to let folks know that residents are

01:49advised of an ongoing scam involving the

01:51impersonation of city officials and

01:53departments. Scammers are fraudulently

01:55requesting payments be made for planning

01:58and zoning permits as well as city

01:59council petitions. All official emails

02:02regarding your petition will come

02:03exclusively from an atwistermma.gov

02:05email address such as [email protected]

02:08or via physical mail on the city of

02:10Wester's official letter head. Any

02:12legitimate hearing letter will always

02:14include your specific application

02:15details along with the scheduled hearing

02:17date, time, and location. The city of

02:20Worester will never request payments via

02:22wire transfer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

02:24>> Thank you.

02:27Go to agenda item number two, uh, which

02:30is approval of the minutes. Uh, roll

02:33call.

02:35>> Councilors Bergman, Rosen,

02:38>> yes.

02:38>> And chairperson, councelor Mitra,

02:40>> yes. Thank you.

02:41>> So the minute approves. I'll go to the

02:44item number three which is the

02:46miscellaneous item 3A. Order of

02:49councelor Gary Rosen, councelor

02:51Moraurice A. Bergman, councelor Robert

02:54Balota, councelor Tony Konamu, councelor

02:57John P. Frisolo, councelor Christian E.

03:00King, councelor Satcha B. Mitra,

03:02councelor Luis A. Oera, councelor Jose

03:06Rivera, councelor Kathyn A. Tumi and

03:10Mayor Joe Perry request standing

03:12committee on municipal and legislative

03:14operation had a public hearing to

03:17determine the feasibility and

03:20advisability of the city council

03:22initiating and supporting efforts to

03:25review the uh current modified plan E

03:29city charter which was implemented in

03:311987 and amended in 2022. So that was

03:36the all the counselor's request to have

03:39the hearing. With that uh I would like

03:41to open the uh floor for anyone who

03:45would like to speak. Please do so.

03:47Identify yourself, your name, and the

03:50place of residence.

03:52>> Uh thank you, Mr. Chair. But before I

03:54get started, I just want you to clear

03:56something up. Uh if you would please, so

03:58just so people will know, uh you're

04:01dealing with number 3A. Can someone

04:04bring the whole thing in or do they have

04:06to come up like 10 times?

04:10>> Um, what do you mean? I mean, at one

04:12point you can say

04:13>> because there's more than one item here.

04:15There's there's you know 3 A, there's 4

04:18A, there's 4 B, there's 4 C, there's 4

04:20D, there's um, you know, 4 E. So

04:23>> you can you can speak on

04:24>> is all universal to what we're talking

04:26about. Correct.

04:28>> You speak once,

04:29>> Mr. Chairman. All right,

04:30>> Mr. Chairman, if I can just interject, I

04:32believe we're taking testimony on on all

04:33items using the hearing. I thank you for

04:35that clarification for you to do so.

04:38>> All right. All right. Thank you very

04:39much. Uh Fred Nathan Worcester. So, as

04:42we know, we're speaking about the uh any

04:44possible changes in the charter. I don't

04:47think the charter really has to be

04:48changed much. Maybe it has to be tweaked

04:50a little bit here and there. No, that's

04:52that's up for conversation here. I'm

04:54just throwing my three cents in and

04:56saying uh the basic charter

05:00I I think is already sufficient. I mean

05:03unless there was some kind of scandal

05:04going on here, you know, which you know

05:07they needed, you know, a strong mayor,

05:09you can argue the points of it until

05:12you're blew in the face. I mean, unless

05:14there was something major,

05:17I I I think we just keep the basic

05:19charter as it is. Obviously the people

05:21behind me might have a differ of opinion

05:24but um I will say that as one taxpayer I

05:28say just keep it as it is. If you have

05:30to tweak it you tweak it

05:41>> Gordon Davis.

05:44I live in Worcester. I'm a resident of

05:46Worcester. I've been here almost 60

05:48years.

05:50The changes I want to see in the charter

05:53are first of all I want it to be made

05:57more explicit, more expressive

06:01and more clear in black letter law that

06:05the city council can make policy and the

06:09city council can write ordinances. I've

06:13been told several times by the law

06:16department that the city council cannot

06:19cannot and this is incredible cannot

06:22make policy. I was told by the law

06:24department several time it cannot write

06:27ordinances.

06:29This is

06:31opposite of what a plan E government is

06:34in which the city council is primary is

06:37the primary authority. I wanted to be

06:40made more clear so that the city law

06:43department does not misinterpret and

06:46misinterpret the plan E charter.

06:51The second thing I'd like to have is a

06:56advisory

06:58petition every alaskan cycle in

07:02perpetuity

07:04about the performance of the city

07:06manager. the city councils

07:10have to answer to the people and

07:12therefore they don't need to be to be

07:17the people don't like him they vote him

07:19out. Now the city manager is in a

07:22position where he

07:25cannot be voted out because the city

07:29council changes every two years. So what

07:33I would like to have is an advisory

07:36petition in perpetuity for every

07:40election cycle

07:42whether or not the people of Worcester

07:45approve of the performance of the city

07:47manager or disapprove of his

07:50performance. And that's all I have to

07:52say.

07:59>> Hi, my name is Gary Hunter. I'll f be

08:02the first one to admit that I'm not

08:04totally up on every piece of the um the

08:09charter. I have read it.

08:13It's been 40 years basically since

08:15you've done any m major changes on the

08:18uh charter.

08:20I think the charter should be updated

08:22probably at least every 10 years if not

08:25more. But right now it gets hung up. And

08:29this has been brought up many times. And

08:31what they do, it seems, is send it to

08:34committee and it dies. We do need a

08:37charter review for the complete charter.

08:40And we appreciate you looking into um

08:43making as many changes as you can

08:45without a charter review. But that's

08:47just half a job. We need to get this

08:50done and we need to get it done now.

08:52There's too many old archaic things in

08:54the charter. There are many things like

08:57uh they just brought up that need to be

08:59changed. You we don't know who to report

09:02to. We have a city charter but we have

09:04the city manager executive. We have the

09:07city council as executives.

09:10Who do you report to?

09:13Who is the boss? Where do people go to

09:15actually

09:17try get changes? So that's one thing we

09:19I think we really need. and I was

09:21reading over the agenda and uh your

09:24feasibility of having something on the

09:26ballot this next election. I mean, if

09:28that happens, it's got to be done fast

09:30and it's got to be done now. And we need

09:33a strong leader behind it on the council

09:35to approve having this put on the the

09:40next election. And I really appre

09:42appreciate you two here that have

09:45listened and um are open and I hope you

09:47will continue that. But I think we need

09:49some charge. We need you guys uh came

09:52back on the city council, not just sit

09:54or sit around. You know, if you look at

09:56what's been voted on the city council,

09:58which I'm going to bring up tomorrow

10:00since January, what has actually been

10:03voted on, what has been accomplished for

10:06pe the regular people of Massachusetts.

10:09And I hope everybody thinks about that.

10:11And this is an important issue and it

10:13should be taken care of now, not later.

10:16And I appreciate it. Thank you.

10:20Thank you,

10:24>> Tom Marino Worester. Uh uh appreciate

10:27the resolution that was brought by

10:29Council Rosen. Uh I I don't I don't know

10:32that a resolution that we support this

10:34or another non-binding um uh ballot

10:38question is is really what we need. Uh

10:41you know, we need to take some action.

10:42There are things that the council can do

10:44as we heard last time uh that we talked

10:46about this issue here. Uh, and I'd

10:48actually if uh after my time if the

10:50chairman would be so kind to ask uh um

10:53either the clerk or the solicitor uh

10:54about the process used in ' 91 that

10:56ultimately failed at voters. Um but I

10:59mean they there was a process there that

11:00they had put before voters a turned out

11:03to be a weak mayor system that uh again

11:05voters didn't uh didn't approve. But

11:07somehow the council on it on its

11:09lonesome uh got from uh the city manager

11:12system in '91 to proposing a a weak

11:14mayor system. And uh how do we do that

11:16without a charter review uh a full

11:19charter review? I I don't I I haven't

11:22I'm I'm confused on how that happened.

11:24Um you know, I could list a thousand

11:26things in the charter that need to be

11:27changed uh to some of the points that

11:29that some folks made here. What the

11:31charter desperately needs is a strict

11:33separation of powers statement like many

11:36other charters have and not this weird

11:39you can't recommend somebody for a job

11:40or or suggest somebody be fired, but you

11:42know, everybody can do everybody's job

11:44and there's no actual branches of

11:45government here. That's part of the

11:47problem. And we need significant

11:49committee reform and council reform.

11:51Having three counselors on a on a

11:53committee is a total waste of time. You

11:55can't talk to each other. You can't talk

11:57to each other or you're breaking the

11:58law. Uh it's idiotic. So uh we need

12:03larger committees so that business can

12:05get done and we need significant council

12:07reform. Thank you.

12:10[clears throat]

12:12>> Anyone else in the audience to speak?

12:16If not, then I'll request uh Mr. Clerk

12:18to see if there's anyone online.

12:21>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We do have one

12:23person raising their hand and I would

12:24just use this as an opportunity to

12:25remind folks the bottom center of your

12:28Zoom application will have the raise

12:30hand function. If you do want to speak

12:31um please click it. We'd also uh if

12:34you're on a phone you would dial star9.

12:36Mr. Chairman I have one person raising

12:38their hand. Uh David Webb just sent a

12:40request to unmute David now.

12:42>> Okay. [clears throat]

12:45>> Thank you. Yes. Are you able to hear me?

12:47>> We can. Yes.

12:49>> Wonderful. Uh David Webb Worcester. I'm

12:51glad we're finally discussing changing

12:53the charter and I'm glad it's you two in

12:55the room right now. Having something in

12:57the charter for ensuring that we don't

12:58have city counselors who drive drunk,

13:00hit multiple vehicles, try to drive

13:02away, then ask to speak with the chief

13:03would be great. It clearly doesn't as

13:06it's currently written. More

13:08importantly, setting aside the harmful

13:10repercussions of having our specifically

13:12conservative city manager who preserves

13:14crisis pregnancy centers and refuses to

13:16create even a semblance of police

13:17accountability. Setting aside the

13:19specific problematic failures of

13:23manager, um I think that the problem is

13:25the city manager position. It allows for

13:28the mayor and counselors to bounce

13:30responsibility back and forth in an

13:32endless game of accountability hot

13:33potato. There is no penalty if and when

13:36the city manager does not act on the

13:38wishes of the city council. There is no

13:41penalty when the manager lies to

13:43counselors or the public. There is no

13:46accountability in our city at all

13:48because the law department exists to

13:50protect the administration rather than

13:52the people to maintain the current

13:53problematic systems that are designed to

13:56empower the administration and their

13:58friends and the chamber of commerce and

14:00their buddies instead of the people. So,

14:02the city should have an employee

14:04handbook instead of one person at the

14:06top being the resource of knowledge and

14:08procedure, making everything

14:09discretionary depending on whether or

14:11not they respond in every single

14:13department and in the city itself. The

14:16city just pingpongs people back and

14:17forth if they complain too hard. It

14:19brasses them and it retaliates with the

14:21treasury, inspectional services, and

14:23police. The city is run like a small

14:26business that's really a front for the

14:28mob and it's embarrassing. Now is an

14:30opportunity to change that, to put an

14:32actual system of accountability in

14:34place, time for actual transparency and

14:37hiring qualified people instead of

14:39seeking people willing to do the job the

14:41ways they always have been done.

14:43Worcester is one of three cities in the

14:45state with this type of government and

14:46the others let their counselors have

14:48lawyers to help them do their job

14:50better.

14:51this the way the city and the law

14:53department work right now are

14:55problematic and harmful and holding the

14:58city back. And it sounds like we're

15:00finally at a point where we can discuss

15:02whether or not it makes sense to have a

15:05manager whose job is, you know, managing

15:07the image of the city rather than

15:08actually ensuring any of his departments

15:10are doing things in the interest of

15:11people or following the law. Thank you.

15:16>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next person

15:17I can identify is Francesco Bivona. just

15:20sent a request to unmute now.

15:28>> Yes. Can you hear me?

15:29>> We can.

15:30>> We can.

15:31>> Yep.

15:32>> Uh Franchesco Pavona, District 5. Uh

15:36I uh I just want to use my brief time

15:39here to ask a question through the

15:41chair. We had brought up last time uh

15:45the clerk going through uh various uh

15:50various issues that have been brought up

15:51to see which could be uh um

15:56modified through council ordinance

15:58versus which needed the full charter

16:00review process. Is that something that

16:03has made progress since last time or is

16:05it still uh still being worked on?

16:10>> Yes. Uh I think after we have all the um

16:14uh everyone speaking I think the city

16:16clerk will make the presentation and

16:18responding to that question.

16:22>> All right. Great. That that's all I have

16:23for today. Thank you.

16:24>> Yeah.

16:26Thank you

16:28>> Mr. Chairman. That's everyone online.

16:30>> Yeah.

16:33Thank you Mr. Po. Appreciate it. Uh I

16:36[clears throat] think we will um

16:39move on to the agenda items. Uh we have

16:434 A, B, C, D, and E. Uh before we do so,

16:49I'd like u councelor Rosen, if you have

16:54anything to say before we begin to hear

16:56the presentation of [clears throat] city

16:59clerk and also solicitor Alexandra.

17:04Thank you, [clears throat] Mr. Chairman.

17:08Uh, and thank you to the the few people

17:10who turned out tonight to attend this

17:12meeting. It's our third public hearing

17:16about uh Chatter Review in the

17:18[clears throat] future of Worcester and

17:20the first one several months ago,

17:23I don't remember how many people were

17:25there, but it might have been none first

17:28meeting because we didn't properly

17:31publicize it. people didn't know that we

17:34were, you know, MLO committee meets at

17:36least monthly and we don't usually talk

17:38about chatter view. So, the people

17:40didn't know that and they didn't turn

17:41out. Then we made sure that the city

17:44clerk's office highly publicized session

17:49number two which I don't know was a week

17:51a month ago or a little more maybe maybe

17:53it was two months ago but in any case a

17:55recent meeting and we had probably at

17:57least 50 people in the audience because

18:00the city clerk's office did publicize

18:03the fact that it was our second meeting

18:05and we were interested in chatter

18:06review. We wanted to hear what the

18:08public had to say about charter review.

18:11I always say review. Some people say

18:12charter change, but I always just say

18:14charter review because I don't know what

18:16a what will be done by a commission

18:19that's elected to to review the charter

18:21charter commission.

18:23So we had that big turnout and one thing

18:26that g you know brought that big turnout

18:28was the fact that we used the alert

18:30worester system to publicize that

18:33meeting and everyone interested or not

18:36in charter review everyone I guess who

18:39signed up for alert worcester and most

18:40of those who care about our city like

18:42you folks belong to that and you get the

18:44messages and we were told we and that's

18:48what happened last time months ago the

18:49second meeting and it worked because we

18:51had a big audience

18:53We were told recently, a few days ago,

18:56oh, you can't use the alert wor system

19:00to publicize the meeting.

19:04And I found, and I told the manager, I

19:05said, that's very insulting. I said,

19:07this is not the usual meeting of the

19:10municipal operations committee. This is

19:12about charter review. It's an important

19:16meeting that does affect everyone, every

19:20resident in the city of Worcester,

19:22whether they're interested in chatter

19:23review or not, because it's their

19:25government. We are the government

19:27whether you like us or not or you're

19:29interested in us or not. What we do,

19:32we're the government and we would like

19:34to take a look at the charter. At least

19:36I would because I filed this order. I

19:37won't speak for my colleagues. When the

19:40committee's findings are returned, any

19:43orders we have to the full council, you

19:45know, they'll make the decision. They'll

19:46speak for themselves. So, I will I have

19:49to talk to the manager. I meet with him

19:51next Monday, another week. Uh I will

19:54talk to him about the insulting decision

19:56that someone in administration made by

19:59saying this meeting was not worthy of

20:02using the alert worester system. I

20:04totally disagree. It should have been

20:06used. It was used before. It should have

20:09been used. Terrible decision. I don't

20:11support it. And that's why we have seven

20:13or eight people and not 50 people people

20:15here tonight. I know it's raining out

20:17and so on. Uh but still, it wasn't the

20:19rain that has kept people away.

20:23Mr. Chairman, I originally filed this

20:25order which was supported by all 11 city

20:30councilors. All 11 signed on to it. And

20:33it basically says, I was looking for the

20:35city council to initiate, that might not

20:38be a good word, but that's what it said.

20:40And support efforts. Yeah, support

20:42efforts to review the current modified

20:44plan E city charter. That's still what

20:46I'd like, especially supporting public

20:48efforts. I'm not saying tonight or

20:51anytime that it should come from the

20:52city council that we'll get signatures,

20:56that we'll, you know, promote the whole

20:58process. I think it has to come from the

20:59people. It would be so much better if it

21:01came from the people. so much better if

21:03it was it would be so much more

21:05effective coming from the people. Back

21:0725 years ago, we had the fluoride

21:09question in Worcester and they went out

21:11and they got signatures.

21:13Didn't pass. They got the signatures and

21:15they weren't able to sell it to the

21:16public, but that was a good way to do

21:18it. And another group, it wasn't the

21:19city council then that got the

21:22signatures and it's not going to be the

21:23city council that gets any necessary

21:26signatures. Uh now

21:30so my goal to elect a charter commission

21:33that's my goal a charter commission I

21:36mean I know and it's been we have a

21:38report someone called in Francesco I

21:41think and asked about you know what can

21:43the city council do with ordinances

21:47short of having a charter commission to

21:50review the charter. There are some

21:51little things we can do but that wasn't

21:54my order. I didn't ask that in my order.

21:56I'm saying I want a full review of the

21:59Worcester modified planning charter

22:02after 40 years. I don't have another 40

22:04years. I can't wait. I'm just asking for

22:06review. Let's see what's good in it.

22:09Let's see what's can be improved. After

22:1240 years, government has changed. The

22:15issues have changed. The players have

22:17changed and they'll continue to change.

22:19So, I think 40 years is enough. You take

22:21a look at the charter and I say review,

22:24let the commission decide if they want

22:26to make changes. Maybe they'll say this

22:27is the best thing since sliced bread and

22:29our charter doesn't need to be changed

22:31at all. I doubt that, but I don't know.

22:33I can't predict. We don't even know who

22:35would be on the charter commission. No

22:36one has certainly run for that yet.

22:40But a charter commission would go in

22:41front of the voters, people like you

22:43folks in the audience. You'd have be

22:45able to get on the ballot, get yourself

22:47200 signatures and get on the ballot for

22:49charter commission. Why not?

22:54And I think the earliest it could be

22:55done, I think it was Gary Hunter who

22:57said maybe we better move fast because

23:00uh this November. I don't think it can

23:02possibly be done. You haven't even got

23:03the signatures yet if we need those. So

23:05I think we're talking 2027, but if we

23:08had started this four years ago,

23:10you know, we'd be looking at maybe

23:12charter review already. So if it's going

23:15to if it's going to take four years,

23:17okay, it'll take four years. take till

23:20you know 2030. I don't like that you

23:23know but you got to start somewhere. You

23:25got to start sometime

23:27should have been earlier.

23:30The present charter now was brought

23:34forward by an elected charter commission

23:37in 1983

23:39over 40 years ago. That's the charter

23:41commission was elected. I don't know.

23:43Not too many Gordon, maybe you, not too

23:45many besides me in this audience in this

23:48room voted for the Charter Commission. I

23:50remember very well. They had their lawn

23:52signs out and so on. So, I voted for it.

23:54Gordon, you probably did, too. You said

23:55you've been here 60 years. So, you

23:57probably voted for the charter

23:58commission. So, they were elected and

24:01they went through the charter, the the

24:03charter in those days, and they made a

24:04lot of changes. Used to be what, nine at

24:07large in the council. Now we're 11, but

24:10only six at large in five districts. And

24:12there were other changes, many other

24:14changes, too. And I'm not even

24:16suggesting changes. I'm just saying it's

24:18time to take a look at it. People ask

24:20me, "What do you want to change?" I

24:22said, "I want the Charter Commission to

24:23do that." I'm not the Charter

24:26Commission, but I just want to help set

24:28the policy and support those who are

24:30looking at charter review.

24:36I'm still going, Mr. Chairman. I'm just

24:38I don't want to repeat here.

24:41So, to get a charter

24:43uh commission, you need 15% of

24:45registered voters. So, you need some

24:47extra signatures, too, because some

24:48people say they're registered and they

24:50don't even live live in Worcester and

24:51they sign the petition. So, you need, I

24:53don't know, 17,000 signatures. That's a

24:56lot of signatures. It's not easy. You

24:58know, I'd get 50. Maybe I get a 100, but

25:0217,000. My hundred looks insignificant

25:04when you need 17,000

25:07to get the question on the ballot. But

25:09we can do it. Enough people who care, it

25:11can be done.

25:13Tonight, I think we should talk to the

25:15law department and to the city clerk

25:19uh about are there any ways to approve

25:22the election of a charter commission

25:24without signatures? Are there any ways?

25:27I've read all the backup for years and

25:30I'm still not positive that, you know,

25:34it can't be done without the 17,000

25:36signatures. Can we ask and I'm going to

25:38ask the may the city clerk soon and I

25:41know he's going to make a presentation,

25:42but the key to me is a charter

25:44commission. I'm looking for charter

25:45commission. No other way. I'm not trying

25:46to get any other way. I want an elected

25:48charter commission which not only comes

25:51up with a revised charter. We'll say

25:54they make some changes revised charter

25:57but it also has to go on the ballot and

25:59be voted by the citizens of Worcester.

26:02So charter change doesn't occur just

26:04because of the city council who might

26:06some of us want it doesn't occur just

26:08because a charter commission wants it.

26:10It occurs because the public voted for

26:12it as they did back in 1987. I think it

26:16was the charter commission started in

26:1893, but it takes a few years, you know,

26:20for municipal elections to come around

26:22and for these things to be done. So, the

26:25public voted for it. And the public

26:26would have a chance to say the charter

26:28commission, I don't like your new

26:29charter. I know you work hard, but I

26:32don't like your new chart. I'm voting

26:33against it. Okay, that's the that's the

26:36you know the rules we have and that's

26:38the safeguards we have. But, you know,

26:41I'm going to ask soon to the clerk when

26:43he makes his presentation, please

26:44stress, can the charter be reviewed

26:46slashchanged through a can the process

26:49be started by some type of home rule

26:52petition where we ask the legislature

26:55allow us to put it on the ballot? And

26:57I'm not even sure

27:00what the petition the 17,000 people are

27:05signing. Are they signing their support

27:08for charter review

27:10when we get to it, Mr. Clerk? Or are

27:12they supporting their support for the

27:15election of a charter commission? It's

27:17two different things. So, I don't even

27:18know what that the 17,000 signatures

27:21would be in favor of. I don't know. It's

27:23probably in here. I've read so much and

27:25uh you know, you do get confused at

27:27times reading it all. But I would like

27:29to know that what do we what should the

27:3217,000 signatures be supporting?

27:35Uh,

27:38and I would also ask the clerk, has any

27:40group of groups requested petition

27:42sheets from the clerk's office to start

27:45this process?

27:47So, to sum it up, I know I talked too

27:48long and I won't talk later on as much,

27:51Mr. Chairman, but I would like to see

27:53charter review through an elected

27:55charter commission. probably we have to

27:58get the signatures. But if there's any

28:00way we can use a home rule petition just

28:02to get on the ballot the question,

28:05should Worcester have a charter

28:07commission? And on the same ballot,

28:09who's running for the charter

28:10commission? Maybe I might look at who's

28:12running and say, I don't like any of

28:14them. So, I'll vote against the charter

28:16commission because I don't like these

28:17people who will be working on. So,

28:19there's a lot of questions here, but

28:21they're good questions. And I know

28:23during election campaigns and even the

28:25last one, many of us candidates for city

28:29council last summer and fall were asked

28:32by groups, "Do you favor charter

28:34review?" And most, from my memory, said

28:37yes, they do. They do favor charter

28:39review. The election's over now, so I

28:41don't know where they stand anymore. But

28:43during the election season, I said, "I'm

28:45far charter review. I'm still charter

28:47review. Doing it the right way." Mr.

28:50Chairman, thank you for indulging me,

28:51listening. Thank you.

28:52>> Well, thank you so much u councel Rosen.

28:56I I believe your most of your questions

28:58answer will be given I think after the

29:00presentation is made by uh our city

29:03clerk and the solicitor. So um councelor

29:07Mo

29:08has joined us Bergamman and if you have

29:12anything that

29:13>> just just a few comments I'm looking

29:15forward to the presentation.

29:17[cough and clears throat] Um, you know,

29:18councelor Rosen had asked about why this

29:21didn't happen four years ago. I I have

29:24an answer. Uh, I can't give it a

29:26definitive answer, but I have a pretty

29:28good answer. I think didn't happen four

29:30years ago for the same reason it didn't

29:32happen 8 years ago, 10 years ago, 12

29:34years ago, 14 years ago, all the way

29:36back to 1987 when it last happened

29:39because the voters didn't get together

29:42to get signatures because apparently

29:44there wasn't a strong motivation to do

29:47so. If there was, I think people would

29:49have gotten together. This isn't that

29:51technical. I'm sure the clerk's office

29:54would assist anybody who wants to get um

29:58paperwork together to get the

29:59signatures. So, it isn't like people

30:02don't understand how to initiate it. I

30:04just think the appetite hasn't been

30:06there now. Maybe the appetite is there

30:08now. And that's great. That's democracy

30:10and action. But if the appetite's there

30:12now, in my opinion, it has to come from

30:14the voters, not from the city council.

30:16City council is 11 people. We make

30:19decisions yes for 28

30:2210 close to 220,000 people now we do

30:25make those decisions but this is a

30:27substantive structural decision that I

30:30don't think 11 people should be

30:32substituting their voices for the 210

30:34plus thousand people that live in the

30:37city of Worcester. So if the will if

30:39there is a will amongst the f the the

30:41voters and the residents the city of

30:43Worcester to get 15% of the potential

30:46voters signatures um to form a uh

30:49charter commission I'll be in favor of

30:52it. If if they're unable to um put those

30:55uh signatures together then I won't be.

30:58But I don't think I'd support 11 of us

31:01circumventing that dem that powerful

31:04democracy which hasn't happened since

31:061987. I guess the other question is why

31:09did it happen 1987 and hasn't happened

31:11since then. I think there were

31:13structural reasons then that were

31:14compelling. There may be structural

31:16reasons now that are compelling but

31:17people have to make those cases. I can

31:20tell you that [clears throat] when I

31:22spoke to folks last year for the last

31:24last municipal election cycle, yes, in

31:27debates there were groups that would ask

31:29about this, but doortodoor did the

31:31average voter ask, are you in favor of

31:34charter review change or charter review

31:36to change the charter? Not really. Um,

31:39so I don't know. We'll have to find out.

31:41Uh, you know, the uh the proof is in the

31:45pudding as they say. So I'll stop my

31:47comments here and look forward to the

31:50presentation.

31:52>> Thank you councelor Bergman.

31:53[clears throat] Before we get to the

31:56presentation, I just wanted to give you

31:58a little background. I think uh this

32:00committee has opened this uh meeting for

32:04the discussion on the charter review

32:07session. Uh it has been a long time that

32:10the review wasn't done. I know that the

32:12councelor Rosen has put that order in

32:15the council and u we have now brought

32:18forward the opportunity to discuss about

32:20it. I think we had the last time we

32:23talked about the charter uh review

32:25session, we had a presentation made by

32:29our solicitor uh Alexander Colonius and

32:32also city clerk and uh u many residents

32:36who came in in the last meeting. They

32:39had many questions, took a note of those

32:42questions and tried to bring back the

32:45answers to those questions in this

32:48meeting. uh the major question that if I

32:52remember was uh that what are the things

32:55what is the process that it takes to

32:57really uh create the charter commission

33:01what are the items that requires a

33:03charter commission that's number one and

33:06then number two is what are the items

33:08that we can do without creating a

33:11charter commission and the third item

33:13was how do we do some non-binding

33:17questions in the ballot I think those

33:19were the three major issues that were

33:22posed to us and uh we requested the city

33:26clerk and also the solicitor to bring on

33:29the answers and I think uh they have

33:31those answers at the end of the day. I

33:34think um um you know we will we will be

33:38doing an educational session. That's my

33:40goal that this committee standing

33:42committee gives you all the foots you

33:44know all the notes that uh uh that you

33:47require to move forward to uh bring on

33:51to create the charter commission but has

33:54to be initiated by you. It's not

33:56something that uh this committee is

33:59going to you know vote for you or not is

34:02not necessary. I think anyone can take

34:05the initiative get the signatures as uh

34:08needed and then move on. But I think the

34:10time factor is very important that you

34:12got to have all those signatures within

34:14before 60 days before the uh election

34:17happens otherwise it rolls into the next

34:19election year. So keeping those in mind,

34:22I think everybody will be having all the

34:24uh knowledge after tonight's

34:26presentation and then we can move from

34:29there. I encourage everyone to start

34:31moving as fast as possible if any change

34:34that you think needs to be brought. With

34:37that u I want to thank uh councelor

34:39Bergman, councelor Rosen for being here

34:42and giving their opinions and views. And

34:44um I think after this uh I'd like to

34:48have uh either Mr. Niko or

34:53solicitor, madame solicitor, any one of

34:55you who would like to make the

34:57presentation with respect to you know

34:59considering to answer all those three

35:01major questions.

35:03>> Uh thank you Mr. Chairman. I think um

35:06you know I had a few slides I was going

35:07to present tonight but I figured what

35:09I'll start with is actually councelor

35:11Rosen's and I think Mr. Mr. Chairman,

35:13you stated as well. I'd rather show you

35:15in ' 83 and 85 what actually happened.

35:18So, uh, AJ was able to locate the 1983

35:21ballot question so we can show to the

35:24public as well as to the committee.

35:26And this will give you a better idea. I

35:29think last meeting I discussed about the

35:31two options, right? You have um if you

35:34want to do a systemic charter change and

35:36we'll go through that more detail later

35:38in the presentation. if it's terms of

35:40the city council or the former

35:42government from a manager to a mayor

35:44strong mayor former government it

35:45requires a charter commission. So back

35:47in ' 83

35:49um there was signatures collected and

35:52the ballot in ' 83 looked and a hand out

35:56some samples to the committee as well.

35:58So it had the counselors

36:00at that time it had nine uh counselors

36:03that were running for a two-year term.

36:05It had also six school committee members

36:08and also um on the same ballot and we'll

36:12hand out some copies for the public as

36:14well was question um shall the

36:16commission be elected to frame a charter

36:18for the city of Worcester.

36:21So that was the charter commission

36:23question that the voters were able to

36:25vote in 1983. On the same ballot was

36:28also the charter commissioners and you

36:31can see some of the names that were

36:32running back then. you can elect nine

36:35commissioners

36:36um to the charter commission and I think

36:39there was more than definitely over a

36:41dozen names. I don't know exactly the

36:43number but probably even more than 20 at

36:45this point um that had run for the

36:48charter commission. So this was in 1983.

36:52Um the signatures were collected at that

36:54point. I was uh trying to pull up a

36:56sample petition paper, but I think it's

36:59uh downstairs in the vault and hasn't

37:01been scanned in our files yet. But the

37:0483 ballot was scanned and that's how it

37:06looked and the results were favorably

37:09because uh there uh voters in 83 did

37:11elect the charter commission and they

37:13also passed the ballot question. Should

37:16the city of Worcester uh have a charter

37:19commission to review the the charter for

37:21the city of Worcester? So it was 83 and

37:24then in ' 85 after the charter

37:26commission did its work for two years uh

37:29they came up with the report and that's

37:31your question that was brought before

37:34the voters in 85. So it should um the

37:38question said shall the city approve a

37:40new charter recommended uh by the

37:42charter commission as summarized below.

37:44There was a a quick summary underneath

37:46and there was a full um pamphlet that

37:49was handed out to the voters at the

37:51polls and I think it was mailed as well

37:53and the summary read that the new

37:54charter continues to provide for council

37:56manager former government. So that

37:58didn't change with the charter

37:59commission review. It did change the

38:02number of seats on the city council from

38:04nine to 11 members uh five elected to

38:07district and six elected at large with

38:10the mayor from being one of those uh

38:12chosen from those six at large city

38:14councilors.

38:16They also elected a citizen's complaint

38:19officer also. Um it stated that the

38:22council will continue to appoint the

38:23manager. The appointments uh of the

38:26manager are then to advisory board

38:29accepted to council approval. And then

38:32it says appointments of each regulatory

38:34and advisory board must be distributed

38:36among uh the five council districts and

38:39advisory council. We recommend

38:42candidates to the boards and commissions

38:44which is technically what happens now

38:45with the current charter. And then they

38:48also stated the school committee will

38:49continue to have six members elected at

38:51large chaired by the mayor. So that

38:54process was changed just a little a few

38:56years ago with having some district

38:58school committee member elected but it's

39:00still uh same process that was in the

39:03charter back in 85 when was approved and

39:07then um it also created neighborhood

39:10area councils which may provide advisory

39:13and selfhelp role within that area which

39:16we don't utilize here in the city of

39:18Worcester because um it hasn't been ever

39:21implemented as far as I know the

39:23neighborhood area councils, but it's in

39:24the charter. It just hasn't been taken

39:26on by the city council. So, so that is

39:28the 87 and then that I'm sorry, the 85

39:31and then the ballot uh the charter went

39:33into effect in 87 and that is the

39:36current charter we have.

39:40Okay. And I think uh Adri was find was

39:42able to find the sample specimen uh

39:45petition paper. Um,

39:47>> so this would uh

39:50this is a sample one we we gave to the

39:53voters to to the residents. I think I

39:55told you at the last committee uh

39:56hearing

39:58uh that we added this process initially

40:01first initiate back in 2024 by some

40:03residents. So this is what we would give

40:06them if they came forward again and

40:09asked the same thing uh to try to

40:11initiate this in 2027. This would be the

40:13sample petition p uh form. Mr. Clerk, u

40:17councelor Bergman has a question. So I

40:20just want to give you I get a question

40:22too. [clears throat]

40:23>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Through the chair

40:25to our clerk, um I guess two three

40:28questions. One is on the on this 85

40:33question or 83 question, shall a

40:35commission be elected? That was not was

40:37that binding or non-binding or was it

40:39done differently?

40:40>> Uh my understanding is that that was

40:42collecting the 15%.

40:45the residents create uh collected the

40:4715% of the registered voters and I think

40:50AJ's got a sample of what the form would

40:52look out today if we gave it out to the

40:54residents.

40:54>> All right. My second question through

40:56the chair is looking at all these

40:57candidates for charter commission. It's

41:00an assumption. I could be wrong, but

41:02there's no district representation. It's

41:05all anywhere you want. So you could have

41:08nine [clears throat] members of the

41:10charter commission from one side of the

41:12city or the other.

41:14Right.

41:14>> Correct. Yep.

41:15>> Okay. And I guess my last question

41:20um is or or will be were any of the

41:24people running for city council I trying

41:27to look quickly also candidates for

41:29charter commission. Is that prohibited?

41:32[clears throat]

41:35Maybe that goes to the law department. I

41:37don't know.

41:37>> Um I think you know I had a quick

41:39discussion with the solicitor earlier

41:41about this. I think if they're not on

41:43the same ballot, um, then I don't think

41:46there's a conflict solicister. Is that

41:48correct?

41:50>> So, you can't be on a counselor's ballot

41:52and the charter commission. That was my

41:54understanding. Maybe I'm I need more

41:55clarity.

41:56>> I just before I don't mean to to cut

41:59anyone off, I just want to say that I

42:01spoken to a former city council who told

42:04me he was on both. He was,

42:05>> but I don't want to

42:07>> Okay. I don't want to uh put him in a

42:09position if that was incorrect all these

42:11years later. Um so I'll be curious what

42:14the answer is maybe through the chair

42:17maybe we get a report back on that.

42:21>> I believe I read that

42:23>> I think the solicitor can review in the

42:24meantime as we continue the discussion

42:26Mr. Chairman if that you don't mind

42:27>> through the chair. Um I do so at the

42:30last meeting I had provided on one of

42:32the slides that technically you can run

42:34for a seat on both the commission and

42:36the city council. Um there's no

42:39restriction in our home rule procedures

42:41act or the state law. However um you

42:44have to consider ethics rules, charter

42:46constraints and any other ordinances

42:47that might affect your ability to be on

42:49both. But there's no outright

42:51restriction or prohibition on that.

42:53>> All right. Thank you.

42:56>> Are you done?

42:56>> I'm all set. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

42:58>> Councelor Rosen.

43:02>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yeah, I had

43:04asked and I'm glad we've got that

43:06information. Uh not what was on the

43:08ballot. The clerk just went through that

43:10and that was excellent. Uh but I asked

43:14what they were signing the first step of

43:16the 16,000 17,000 signatures. And

43:20according to this statement says we

43:23these are the people who sign initially.

43:26It's not on the ballot yet. We're trying

43:27to get it on the ballot, but request

43:29that the city of Worcester revise its

43:32present charter or adopt a new charter.

43:35Okay. And that's the key. So that's what

43:37they were doing. They weren't suggest

43:39they weren't saying we request that the

43:41city elect a charter commission. No,

43:44that they revise the present charter or

43:46adopt a new charter. So that was

43:48important. And I know it was long ago.

43:51We're talking the 1980s.

43:53And you look at the number of people

43:55running for council maybe on the left

43:58side there I didn't count them but

43:59there's probably 15 to 20 in school

44:01committee you know small handful look at

44:05the charter commission if I counted

44:07close to correctly 45 people running for

44:11charter commission so in those days

44:13there was a lot of interest and I tell

44:15you if we ever have another ballot with

44:17a charter commission on there I think

44:19there'll be more than 45 just like

44:21decades ago there were many for people

44:24running for council in those days. I

44:26know things have changed, but people are

44:28still interested in their government.

44:29They might be more turned off today than

44:32they were back in the 1980s to their

44:34government. Uh but just the fact that

44:36there's 45 people running for nine seats

44:39in the charter commission, you know,

44:41that's that to me is great. So that

44:43certainly answers, you know, that

44:45question I asked and I'm sure uh through

44:48the chair to city clerk that you'll be

44:51talking about whether the only way to

44:55get the ballot questions we've just

44:56talked about a charter commission and

44:58who might be a member of the charter

45:00commission is through signatures. You

45:03know, my question was is there any other

45:04way? Now, I know some on the this

45:06committee and maybe on the city council

45:08would say, "Wait a minute. I don't think

45:10this the council should be as involved

45:14by going to the legislature through home

45:16rule petition and trying to avoid the

45:18signatures." There's checks and balances

45:20all the way. They'll be on the ballot.

45:23Do you want a charter commission? All

45:25you got to do is vote no. If you don't

45:26want to revise the charter, you just

45:27vote no and then it's gone.

45:30I'm just trying to, you know, save

45:32people the huge effort and the time it

45:35takes for 17,000 signatures. But if they

45:38go out and they try to get those

45:40signatures, I guarantee my colleagues on

45:42the this committee and the city council,

45:44they'll get them. Be a lot of hard work,

45:46but they'll get them just like they got

45:47the fluoride signatures back in the year

45:502000. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

45:52>> Thank you. Um just one question to the

45:56city clerk or the um solicitor that uh

45:59is it the 15% of the signature needed

46:03for creating the charter commission is

46:06it the regulation or the rule of the

46:09commonwealth of mass

46:10>> uh through the chair to the to the

46:13council and the committee. So basically,

46:14as we presented last meeting, it's in

46:16the MGL. So you can't override even

46:19through a special act. If the council

46:20was asking for a special act to the

46:22state legislature, uh you're not going

46:23to be able to change the MGL. And that's

46:25why back in ' 83 in order to get on the

46:28ballot, uh the residents collected uh

46:30the necessary signatures to get that

46:33question on the ballot. But I was going

46:35to show a couple slides from the last

46:36meeting if you don't mind, just to kind

46:38of recap that process again.

46:42>> [snorts]

46:43>> So um as we discussed Mr. Mr. Chairman,

46:46at the last uh meeting um there's two

46:48types of you know ways that council um

46:51can you know initiate

46:53um if it's anything that requires you

46:56know uh protected changes which is the

46:58mayor the city council the manager

47:00composition of offices and terms of the

47:02city councilors that has to go through a

47:04charter commission and then any re major

47:07rewrite um form of government or council

47:11structure charter commission and then

47:14that requires the 15%. If it's something

47:16that it's, you know, minor changes can

47:18go through a special act. We discussed

47:20the school committee um option, you

47:23know, that was only because of that

47:25consent degree and the lawsuit. Uh but

47:27any other change has to go through a

47:29special act um or a charter commission

47:32if it's a major term change. Um the

47:35solicitor can jump in, but as far as I

47:37know, there's no way you can override

47:38that MGL that requires either 15%. Um if

47:42it's the term of the city council, the

47:44length of the term, the number of seats,

47:46um the number of district city

47:48councilors, number of large city

47:49councils, changing from a strong uh you

47:52know, from a manager former governor to

47:54a strong mayor, former government,

47:56>> that I would require the 15%.

47:59>> Councelor Bergman has one more.

48:01>> If I may, Mr. Chair, thank you. on the

48:03um ballot for members of the charter

48:07commission. What's a requirement for the

48:09number of signatures somebody would need

48:11to get on that ballot?

48:13>> Um to the chair to council. I think we

48:15provided that number last time if

48:18>> 200. Yep. 200 on my second slide

48:20actually.

48:21>> All right. And the other thing I was

48:22more of a comment if the chair would

48:24allow me. Sure. And that is that when I

48:26look at the specimen ballot for the

48:28charter change back in the 80s, the

48:31summary of the question, if you read it,

48:34it really comes down to increasing the

48:37number of counselors from

48:40from uh 9 to 11 with six elected at

48:43large and five elected from the

48:45district. other than the neighborhood um

48:49area councils which we've never enacted.

48:51There's nothing else in the summary that

48:53that I think was a change from prior um

48:57charter. So I say that because clearly

49:00council rose is right. there's a lot of

49:02interest in running for um change uh

49:06charter review, but the end result, the

49:09summary is that the only thing that was

49:11really being changed if charter review

49:13was approved was going from 9 to 11. I'm

49:16not saying that's insignificant, but

49:18that's a lot different than picking

49:19apart the charter and many different

49:21categories that some have suggested. So

49:23I I don't know if that would have made a

49:25difference or not, but I think it's

49:27worth noting that the summary doesn't

49:29include many different changes, just

49:31one. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

49:34>> Thank you.

49:38>> Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh so as we

49:40discussed on my next slide is you start

49:43with the petition. You'll have the first

49:45election as we did in 83. Um the public

49:48has an opportunity to review it. The

49:50attorney general's office also reviews

49:51it for any legal conflicts as well as

49:53the solicitor. And then the final report

49:56would be within 18 months once the

49:58charter commission is created. And then

50:00the second election like we had in ' 85

50:03where you had the summarized changes and

50:06then if the voters approve that final uh

50:08change um you know final charter as the

50:12charter commission reports out then it

50:14would go into effect uh the following in

50:17two years from then. So I think um it

50:20all depends on the changes that you know

50:22the residents are looking to make. If

50:24it's going to be a term of the city

50:26councils as I stated earlier uh from a

50:29manager to a strong mayor that will all

50:31start with the charter commission

50:35and then I have just two more slides

50:37based on what the last report I brought

50:38forward um to kind of um this is

50:42summarizing the report that was

50:44submitted last week to the council

50:45before the committee tonight. um just

50:48you know likely route that you need to

50:50change from a current council manager

50:52structure to a strong mayor former

50:53government.

50:55Transfer the chief executive authority

50:56from the city manager to an elected

50:58mayor. Same process and then change the

51:01number of city councils or a large

51:03district composition would also require

51:05a charter commission.

51:08And then also you know how you elect the

51:11or change the terms of the office. So

51:13from going from two years if you want to

51:14go to a three-year term or a four-year

51:16term of a city council or a school

51:18committee member would also require a

51:20charter commission and then change how

51:22the mayor is elected um the term of the

51:24mayor and the powers of the mayor also

51:26have to go under charter commission

51:28requirement

51:32and then any minor changes whether it's

51:34rule changes or any um you know

51:37authority over you know certain aspects

51:40of of the council over the manager

51:43If it's uh any minor changes, the

51:45council can do either, you know, change

51:47the rules of the city council or the

51:49ordinances um the city council itself

51:52has an organizational ordinance that

51:55abides by. So those can, you know, be

51:58done that way or through a special act,

52:00but nothing that affects kind of the

52:03broad changes of government here in the

52:05city.

52:19And that gives kind of a highlight

52:20summary of uh what we've been discussing

52:22for the past few meetings.

52:38you um

52:40could you mention like if the charter

52:42commission is created what would be

52:45their role?

52:47>> Um if the charter Thank you Mr. Mr

52:48Chairman, if the charter commission is

52:50created, their role would be to review

52:52the current charter and then uh provide

52:55a draft uh of you know the revised

52:59changes whether it's changing you know

53:01the mayor to from a manager to a strong

53:03mayor whether it's changing the roles of

53:06the city councils in terms of how many

53:08are elected for the city and um or the

53:12term going from two years to a

53:14three-year term to a four-year term and

53:17the relationship between um you how

53:19would you elect the mayor and and so on.

53:21So

53:24>> So the charter commission's

53:26recommendation then goes to the ballot

53:29again.

53:30>> Correct. The second time it goes to the

53:31ballot and then the vote is either

53:33approve it or uh yeah or reject it.

53:37There's very little involvement of the

53:38city council uh unless you're on the

53:41charter commission as the solicitor was

53:42discussing earlier.

53:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you uh to

53:59our city clerk who

54:01obvious gives us the right information

54:04and educates us so often. So, I I do

54:06appreciate that the quality of the city

54:09clerk department.

54:12Uh there's a lot of checks and balances

54:15as we see in the whole process. The the

54:17first thing the 16 17,000 signatures

54:21of um voters registered voters in the

54:26city of Worcester has to make it through

54:28that step. That's a lot of people who if

54:31they all turned out to vote it would

54:33probably certainly pass when it makes

54:35the municipal ballot. Then you have to

54:37elect there's a there's another on the

54:39ballot there's a question should we

54:41elect a charter commission and next to

54:43it is a list of those running for the

54:46charter commission on the same ballot.

54:47So there's two more checks and balances

54:49and then as the clerk just said

54:52after the work of the charter commission

54:54is done and there's a certain length of

54:56time they can't take you know much more

54:57than a year or so I think to do the work

54:59but when their work is finished it goes

55:01on the ballot again there's like a

55:02fourth check and balance

55:05and the public will vote do we like what

55:07they came up with will we support it do

55:10we want a new revised charter or even a

55:12new type of charter whatever they the

55:14commission comes up with so checks and

55:17balances along the way. I'm going to

55:20make a motion, Mr. Chairman, and this is

55:22my motion.

55:26Request the city council because

55:27everything that we decide here

55:30means little until it goes in front of

55:32the entire city council on Tuesday night

55:35and they look at what we've discussed

55:36and what we've come up with, any

55:38motions,

55:39and they get to speak on it and

55:42certainly vote on it. So, whatever we

55:44vote, we could vote here now. Yeah. Ra

55:47let's change the JA and could be eight

55:50of them who said say in the future no so

55:53my request of this committee

55:56request the city council encourage and

55:59support

56:01members of the public pardon me I'm

56:04going to go back request the city

56:05council encourage and support the

56:07efforts of members of the public to get

56:11the signatures of 15% of the city's

56:15registered voters

56:18to request that the city of Oster review

56:21andor revise its present charter or

56:24adopt a new charter. I took some of that

56:27obviously from the charter question back

56:28in the 80s. Okay. And I know just going

56:32back to what councelor Bergman said, he

56:34questioned that little summary. Yeah, I

56:36can question it too that summary. But

56:39that's just a summary. It's not, you

56:41know, in the newspaper and mailings and

56:43so on, the whole all the issues of

56:46charter change, what the charter

56:47commission came up with, not just this

56:49little summary. So, it wasn't just going

56:50from nine counselors to 11 with some

56:53with five district councils, but that

56:55was the summary. Could it have been

56:56written better? Of course, it could have

56:58been. So, again, I'm going to read it

57:00once more because it's very important, I

57:01think. request the city council

57:02encourage and support the efforts of

57:05members of the public to get signatures

57:08of 15% of the city's registered voters

57:10to request that the city was to review

57:12and or revise its present charter or

57:15adopt a new charter. I'm not suggesting

57:16the city council get any signatures. I'm

57:19saying we just encourage the public to

57:21do that. Not saying much, but it's

57:23showing some support by the public city

57:26councilors, their elected officials that

57:29yeah, after 40 years, we agree it's time

57:31to take a look at the charter. I just

57:33went through four or five checks and

57:35balances along the way. So, counselors

57:38who might be a little skeptical, a

57:40little reluctant to do this,

57:43then they know that the public is part

57:45of it every step of the way. all too

57:48often because I've been around a long

57:49time. You know that you saw my name on

57:51the first city uh first school committee

57:53ballot n 1985 that the clerk just passed

57:56out. So I've been around a long time and

57:59I understand that you know we sometimes

58:02don't involve the public enough in our

58:06discussions. I want to do that and I

58:08want to say to the public, yeah, we

58:10support your efforts. I hope you get the

58:1317,000 signatures. I don't know. I think

58:16it could be done, but you need 200

58:17people to do it. You know, they can each

58:19get 150 or so. So, you're going to need

58:21that. But I think it's good to have the

58:24city council support. That's all I'm

58:26asking for. I'm not asking for anything

58:28more than that. Just to say to the

58:30public, your city councilors think it's

58:33time to review the charter. So, folks,

58:37you know, unite. go out, get the 17,000

58:42signatures

58:43to put on the ballot. Should we have a

58:47charter commission and who will be

58:49members of the charter commission?

58:51That's my motion. Not a scary one, not a

58:54harmful one, not one to worry about.

58:58It's just supporting the public and

58:59saying work with us. We don't often do

59:02that. We don't often do that in any big

59:04time. We know we have controversial and

59:06important and big topics, but we don't

59:08often say to the public, "We're with you

59:10on this, but we can't go get the

59:12signatures for you." You have to do that

59:14yourself. You have to unite. Thank you,

59:16Mr. Chairman.

59:17>> Thank you, um, Council Bwin.

59:19>> Yeah. [clears throat] First of all, I

59:21think the summary uh is something that's

59:24uh more than just uh something that's

59:26written on the ballot. Uh, I know most

59:28people when they go to the polls on

59:31election day with a number of different

59:33ballot initiatives, they do read the

59:35summary. Sometimes they're worded double

59:37negatives and it gets very confusing. I

59:39know that Facebook, Twitter, so on and

59:42so forth advertises often times or

59:45promotes one side or the other. So there

59:47are explanations, but I think the vast

59:49majority of people, especially with the

59:51Telegram and Gazette being as um having

59:54less subscription than ever before and

59:55written magazines and newspapers being

59:58relatively non-existent, I think people

1:00:00do look at the summary when they go to

1:00:02vote on something and they're they're um

1:00:05influenced by it. That's just my own

1:00:07opinion. Just quick comment. Um

1:00:09[clears throat] so, you know, this got

1:00:12us into a little bit of a heated

1:00:13discussion last time and if it does

1:00:14again, so be it. But you know with with

1:00:17respect to my colleague and dear friend

1:00:19Council Rosen when you say support the

1:00:22public this is your motion is to support

1:00:24the public. I don't know what the public

1:00:26wants. I won't know what the public

1:00:28wants until the signatures are gotten or

1:00:31not gotten. So from my perspective I

1:00:34can't say that I support what the public

1:00:37wants by getting excuse me signatures

1:00:39and sign of the signatures if I don't

1:00:41know that's the will of the people. This

1:00:43to me has to be purely organic. If the

1:00:45voters of the city of Worcester want a

1:00:48charter change, they'll go out and get

1:00:50the signatures, which I will support.

1:00:53But I do not support picking sides on

1:00:56whether they should or shouldn't or

1:00:58people whether they should sign or not

1:01:00sign u the question of whether they want

1:01:03charter review. That is if I did that,

1:01:05then I might as well be one of the 11

1:01:07that votes to send it to the legislature

1:01:09for home rule petition. I think that

1:01:11this is one of the most democratic

1:01:14democratically important processes we

1:01:17have which is structural change

1:01:19potentially to the charter which is our

1:01:22constitution of our city. I look at it

1:01:24that way. If we're going to ask that the

1:01:26constitution of our city be changed

1:01:29again it shouldn't come from 11 of us.

1:01:30It shouldn't be influenced by 11 of us

1:01:33at least not initially. It should be we

1:01:36have a right to say our point of view

1:01:38but I don't want

1:01:40to uh assume that I know what the public

1:01:44wants. That is something we will find

1:01:47out if people go out to get signatures.

1:01:49That's why I was willing to work with

1:01:52the wording of a um motion councelor

1:01:55through the chair to council Rosen. Uh

1:01:57but I'm not going to support that

1:01:59wording because I'm not taking sides. I

1:02:01can't be any more clear. This is this is

1:02:04a organic effort by the voters in

1:02:07residents of the city of Worcester or

1:02:08it's not. But I am not taking sides

1:02:10until I'm presented with signatures that

1:02:13equate with 15% of the um of the voters.

1:02:17Then I will support it. But until that

1:02:20happens, I'm neutral on it.

1:02:24>> Councelor,

1:02:24>> Mr. chairman and reply to my friend and

1:02:28colleague uh councelor Bergman, I did go

1:02:32through four or five checks and balances

1:02:34along the way,

1:02:36but and I understand Mr. uh councelor

1:02:40Bergman's points. So, I'm willing to

1:02:44remove the word support from my order,

1:02:46request the city council encourage

1:02:51the efforts of members of the public to

1:02:54get the signatures of 15% of the city's

1:02:56registered voters and signatures for

1:02:59what purpose? To request that the city

1:03:01was to review and to revise its present

1:03:04charter or adopt a new charter. I'm

1:03:05striking striking the word support. I'm

1:03:09just striking the word encourage.

1:03:12So with all the checks and balances, I

1:03:15don't see why we can't support this. You

1:03:18said you might as well, if you support

1:03:20at least the original words of support,

1:03:23you might as well support going to the

1:03:26legislature and trying to get a charter

1:03:29commission through that method without

1:03:31the signatures. I think the clerk just

1:03:33said that's we can't do that, right? Am

1:03:35I right? It's it's the signatures. It's

1:03:38>> 91 91,

1:03:40>> right? Okay. It's the It's the

1:03:42signatures that are necessary to get

1:03:44this done. All I'm asking the council to

1:03:47do is not even support charter change,

1:03:49just to encourage the efforts of members

1:03:52of the public to get those signatures.

1:03:54That's all I'm asking. Okay? It's

1:03:57minimal. It's not scary.

1:04:00That's our job. And it gets us a little

1:04:03closer to the public. We're so used to

1:04:05doing everything in a vacuum

1:04:09and I've been part of that. I've been

1:04:10around a long time. So maybe I'm

1:04:12changing in my old age. Maybe I'm saying

1:04:14let's embrace our public and work with

1:04:17them. And if this isn't really working

1:04:20with them, although I'm going to try to

1:04:21get signatures with them. It's not

1:04:23really working. It's just encouraging to

1:04:24say we think it's a good idea to take a

1:04:26look at the charter after 40 years. 40

1:04:30years. We should take a look at it.

1:04:32Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1:04:36Do you want to say something?

1:04:38>> May I please say something? Um, what I

1:04:41talked to before is we need some changes

1:04:44and I think through the chair what Mr.

1:04:47Bergman is suggestion is just holding it

1:04:51back. This is why it hasn't been done

1:04:52for 40 years. [snorts]

1:04:56legal lease talk and picking apart every

1:04:59single word is why nothing gets done and

1:05:02sometimes in the city council. We need

1:05:05this done and I hope this commission by

1:05:08a vote will support the people like Mr.

1:05:11Rosen asked. Thank you.

1:05:17Anything else to say?

1:05:21>> Anyone else want?

1:05:22>> Yeah. Yes, please. Could there be some

1:05:23addressing of uh I I believe it's a June

1:05:26it's a 2022 report. I think it's June

1:05:28from the clerk's office that details

1:05:30what happened in 1991 when a a ballot qu

1:05:33when a the council formed a special

1:05:34committee that created a a a charter

1:05:38that went before the before voters and

1:05:40was rejected. How did that happen? How

1:05:42did that get on the ballot if it was

1:05:43created by the city council? Thank you,

1:05:51>> Mr.

1:05:52Uh thank you Mr. Chairman. I just want

1:05:54to provide a response. So I handed out

1:05:56the committee and I'll have the uh

1:05:58deputy city clerk pull up the ballot. So

1:06:00in November 5, 1981, there is correct.

1:06:02There was several questions on the

1:06:04ballot but they were non-binding.

1:06:06So as I advised tonight the committee

1:06:09there is an option for the council to

1:06:10ask for a non-binding question as you

1:06:13did in 2025.

1:06:15There was four questions that the uh the

1:06:18committee I don't know if it was MLO or

1:06:20whichever council committee might have

1:06:22recommended these four questions but

1:06:25they're all non-binding. You can have

1:06:27advisory questions on a local ballot but

1:06:29that will not carry any weight to make

1:06:31any changes to the charter. So um as I

1:06:35provided you a report tonight which is I

1:06:37believe it's um which item is it AJ? Is

1:06:40it 4C?

1:06:42So, it gives you an example of how the

1:06:44council in 2025

1:06:46uh provided um voted and asked the clerk

1:06:50and the election commission to put the

1:06:52college and universities question on the

1:06:54ballot. You can do the same thing in

1:06:562027 if if the council or the committee

1:06:59decides to do just a non-binding

1:07:01advisory question. But again, it will

1:07:03not carry any weight in changing or

1:07:05creating a charter commission.

1:07:08>> Council Rosen.

1:07:10>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. through the

1:07:11chair, to the city clerk, and to my

1:07:13colleagues in the committee. It's it's

1:07:15unusual and surprising that only four

1:07:18years after that new charter, they had

1:07:20the commission. They all voted for the

1:07:21new charter. Four years later, they were

1:07:23asking questions like this. There were

1:07:25people out there who weren't pleased

1:07:26with the new charter. Four years. Now,

1:07:29we've gone, you know, 40 years with it.

1:07:32And some people think that we shouldn't

1:07:33question it even now. But next time, Mr.

1:07:36Clerk, when you provide us with

1:07:37information like these four questions,

1:07:39very interesting. I'd love to know the

1:07:41results. I have no idea of the results

1:07:43questions.

1:07:44>> I think if you give us a minute, we can

1:07:45find you the results as well. But um

1:07:47>> yeah, if we can get those because

1:07:48they're interesting questions that might

1:07:50be part of any charter commission and

1:07:53their their review of the charter if we

1:07:55ever get to that point. Thank you, Mr.

1:07:57Chair.

1:08:02>> Just through the chair to the clerk,

1:08:04what would be what would be the downside

1:08:06of other than it not being non-binding?

1:08:08obvious downside um to putting a um

1:08:12non-binding question on the ballot and

1:08:14how quickly could that be done would be

1:08:16the 2027 election cycle

1:08:19>> um through the chair to the council. So,

1:08:21as we did last uh municipal election

1:08:24council uh I think based on my

1:08:25communication, you have plenty of time

1:08:28if you know if the council wants to do

1:08:30it this year and direct the clerk and

1:08:32the election commission to put it for

1:08:34next year's it has to be next year's

1:08:36municipal election. uh you can't put on

1:08:38a state uh ballot. So you have between

1:08:41now until I would say I would recommend

1:08:44if council is going to do anything for

1:08:46the 2027 election to get it to us before

1:08:49August. So uh we have time to work with

1:08:54the with the election commission and to

1:08:55design the ballot. So

1:08:57>> when do you need those signatures if you

1:08:59get 17,000?

1:09:00>> So in terms of um I'm sorry maybe I was

1:09:02confused. I thought councelor Bergen was

1:09:04asking about a non-binding or asking for

1:09:06>> I just switched. Okay. Since you said

1:09:08there's some type of deadline to him,

1:09:10>> there must be a deadline for the 17,000

1:09:12signatures.

1:09:13>> Correct. So that is uh based on what the

1:09:15report I provided last time. I have to

1:09:17go back to my uh timeline, but um if you

1:09:19give me one second, but I think

1:09:21councelor Bergman's thing is it's a

1:09:23simple council vote, so it doesn't

1:09:25require that much time. So, you only

1:09:27need six votes from council to put a

1:09:29non-binding uh ballot question on the on

1:09:32the ballot.

1:09:35>> Well,

1:09:38>> yeah.

1:09:41>> Did you get the answer?

1:09:43>> I did. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank

1:09:44you, uh, Mr. Clerk.

1:09:46>> Okay.

1:09:48So, Mr. Clerk, uh, if we want to have

1:09:51any non-binding question, it has to come

1:09:53from the city council. Uh, correct. So,

1:09:56if it's going to be a non-binding

1:09:58question, it has to come from city

1:09:59council and you need six votes uh to

1:10:02place that on the ballot

1:10:03>> and it will go on the next election

1:10:04ballot

1:10:05>> and that will go in the November 2027

1:10:07election. Correct.

1:10:08>> And there could be as many non-binding

1:10:10questions as

1:10:11>> correct. As you seen in 1991 example

1:10:13that we discussed tonight, there was

1:10:15four non-binding questions.

1:10:17>> That's not something that has to

1:10:19generate here tonight. The non-binding

1:10:21question. We can just ask the city

1:10:23council to

1:10:23>> Right. And I think um it doesn't have to

1:10:25generate here tonight in the committee.

1:10:27Um if that's not the will of the

1:10:28committee um it can be done in 2027.

1:10:32I think last time I don't I believe

1:10:34council marl Carlson with the mayor

1:10:36petty brought forward that question and

1:10:38then it was just a simple council vote

1:10:40at one of the meetings and then it went

1:10:42to uh the clerk and election commission

1:10:45to place on the ballot for the November

1:10:472025 elections.

1:10:48>> Okay. Thank you. Uh, [clears throat]

1:10:51councelor B. You

1:10:53>> I would just I would just say, Mr.

1:10:54Chairman, that if councelor Rosen wants

1:10:56to change the wording as he suggested he

1:10:59would be agreeable to do from supporting

1:11:01to encouraging, I could support that as

1:11:04a um as a motion.

1:11:06>> As I've said, Mr. Chairman, I did change

1:11:08the wording and I struck the word

1:11:09support.

1:11:11>> Can I just Can I just say something?

1:11:12Sure.

1:11:13>> Um, I heard your motion. I like the

1:11:17change in the wording done. But let me

1:11:19just uh what I am thinking if we take

1:11:22this to the council asking them to

1:11:26encourage

1:11:27uh residents to go and get the uh

1:11:30charter change motion getting the

1:11:33signatures. That's what your motion is

1:11:35that you encourage residents to move

1:11:38ahead and get the signatures. I think

1:11:42they do have that option anyways. But I

1:11:44think you are just saying ethically to

1:11:46be just to be supporting them to be with

1:11:49them. Okay. I I'm I'm with them. I want

1:11:51them to go and get the signatures if

1:11:53they think there is anything that needs

1:11:55to be changed. I said that in the

1:11:57beginning that I'm fully in support of

1:11:59that. But this is what I think you know

1:12:02as as I'm thinking that if it goes to

1:12:04the council and

1:12:08it could be voted down it could be voted

1:12:10in because it's the vote we are taking

1:12:14I mean if it is voted down I don't want

1:12:16it to come out like now they what's the

1:12:19consequence of that you know then then

1:12:21it looks like that we're not encouraging

1:12:24residents to go but this is if it keeps

1:12:27if it's open I mean it's encouraged

1:12:29there there anyone can now go and get

1:12:31the signatures and get moving on it by

1:12:34taking it to the council with that

1:12:37motion. I'm just afraid if it comes to

1:12:40be the other way it should not be

1:12:42looking like that. We don't want the

1:12:44residents to move forward. We are not

1:12:46encouraging them. I think I think I'd

1:12:48like to see that it is encourage but

1:12:50then again you have that possibility

1:12:52before I put my you know the

1:12:55chairperson's uh order for that. I just

1:12:58wanted you to think about it.

1:13:00>> Well, Mr. Chairman, if the city council

1:13:02votes down my order of encouragement,

1:13:05that's all it is. As you mentioned, they

1:13:07voted down. I guess that's what the

1:13:08public should know that the city council

1:13:10is against maybe revising and reviewing

1:13:13the charter. That's okay. And as you

1:13:15said, they can do it now without us.

1:13:17>> Yes.

1:13:18>> And they will be doing it because I'm

1:13:19just, you know, they'll be doing it

1:13:20without us. And even if the council

1:13:22voted down this order, which I don't

1:13:24think they will.

1:13:25>> No, no, listen. They do.

1:13:26>> I'm just looking at the public can still

1:13:28go get the signatures and get it done.

1:13:30That's what that's the purpose of the

1:13:32whole process to get the public involved

1:13:34and have them do this.

1:13:36>> The there anyone is after we gave this

1:13:39session was to educate everyone what

1:13:42needs to be done to really move forward

1:13:44if we think that charter uh change

1:13:47needed and for that we need to have a

1:13:49commission. And we know now everybody

1:13:51knows the steps what are the items that

1:13:54they require the commission be formed

1:13:56everything is I think the role of this

1:13:58committee was I think to educate them

1:14:00what needs to be done but if you say

1:14:03let's take it to the council with a word

1:14:05that let's encourage everyone to move

1:14:08forward with an intent to have a charter

1:14:11review and that requires us to form a

1:14:14charter commission I would like the the

1:14:19it to consider that we move with that

1:14:21wording that you gave and I'll put it in

1:14:23the commission for support. Correct.

1:14:24>> Yeah, you move the support. So we'll

1:14:26encouragement is is fine and then um Mr.

1:14:29Clerk, can

1:14:30>> I just add one more thing? Yeah. Thank

1:14:33you, Mr. Chairman. I I just want to u be

1:14:36clear cuz I heard what

1:14:40some folks in the audience had to say.

1:14:42Um [clears throat] I wasn't ignoring

1:14:44others. It's just some folks spoke and

1:14:46some folks didn't. Um, but I I I just

1:14:50want to be clear that

1:14:52the city council, let's say it's 11 to

1:14:54nothing on Council Rosen's motion, 11 to

1:14:57nothing. The city council voting to

1:15:00encourage

1:15:02um people to go get the signatures

1:15:06is a form of support,

1:15:10>> which I can live with when the the way

1:15:12it's worded, but it's not going to be a

1:15:14substitute for the hard work. So,

1:15:16somebody out there had said that nothing

1:15:18ever gets done because councils like

1:15:20council Bergman hold stuff up. If you're

1:15:23satisfied that form over substance is

1:15:26going to change the fact that since 19

1:15:29since the 1980s, maybe nobody's ever

1:15:32gotten a charter initiative going

1:15:34because the city council didn't

1:15:36encourage them. So, now we're

1:15:37encouraging them. Let's see if that

1:15:39makes a bit of difference because at the

1:15:41end of the day, it's really going to be

1:15:42up to folks to do the hard work to get

1:15:44the signatures. Whether city council

1:15:46votes 11 to zero to support that or 0 to

1:15:5011 to not support it, that's really the

1:15:53work that needs to be done. Words have

1:15:56importance, yes, but this is not a

1:15:58substitute the encouragement for doing

1:16:00the hard work. So, let's see the hard

1:16:02work happen.

1:16:03>> Well, thank you, Mr. Bergman. I just

1:16:07want to everyone to realize that yes,

1:16:09we'll take this motion to the council,

1:16:11but I just want everyone to understand

1:16:13that everyone is from this moment is at

1:16:18their wisdom to go and get the

1:16:20signatures. No matter what comes out of

1:16:22the city council, you still are eligible

1:16:25to go ahead and get the signatures and

1:16:27make the move. I think time being of

1:16:29essence, I'd like to see that we already

1:16:32start moving. But yes, I honor your u

1:16:36motion for the encouragement by the city

1:16:38council. Just gives a good gesture from

1:16:41all of us. And uh if that is agreeable,

1:16:45then we'll take a roll call on the

1:16:47motion. Mr. C, Mr. Clerk, have you got

1:16:50the motion?

1:16:52>> Mr. Mr. Chairperson, I do. Um, my only

1:16:56note is that because the motion is a

1:16:59motion to encourage the council, I

1:17:02wouldn't use the phrase request city

1:17:04council. I would just say that the city

1:17:06council does hereby encourage if um that

1:17:08is okay with the um

1:17:10>> So would you would you please read the

1:17:12the motion in in the language you've

1:17:15just suggested?

1:17:16>> Sure thing. would be that the city

1:17:17council does hereby encourage the

1:17:19efforts of members of the public to I

1:17:22believe you said to get signatures from

1:17:2415% of the voter uh city's registered

1:17:26voters. But that that it's just the

1:17:28beginning that I would change that the

1:17:29city council does hereby encourage.

1:17:31>> That's standard lingo for the city

1:17:33clerk's office. You

1:17:34>> good with that?

1:17:35>> Oh, that's fine. Yeah.

1:17:36>> Roll call.

1:17:38>> Councilors Bergman.

1:17:39>> Yes.

1:17:40>> Rosen.

1:17:40>> Yes.

1:17:41>> And chairperson councelor Mitra.

1:17:42>> Yes.

1:17:46I think uh those were the main items

1:17:49that we had on the agenda.

1:17:53Let's see.

1:17:55>> Maybe a motion to file that order 3A

1:17:57now. We can do that, I guess.

1:17:58>> Well, I think I think we did act 4.

1:18:02Yeah. Motion to file the 3A.

1:18:04>> Yeah, we should take a vote on that.

1:18:05>> Yeah. Roll call for the 3A to file.

1:18:08>> Councilors Bergman,

1:18:10>> yes.

1:18:10>> Rosen,

1:18:11>> yes.

1:18:11>> And chairperson, councelor Mitra,

1:18:13>> yes.

1:18:14And then we got 4 A communication with

1:18:17the city clerk. We had a presentation. I

1:18:20think that that includes 4 A B C. Am I

1:18:23correct, Mr. Cler?

1:18:24>> Correct, Mr. Chairman. So, you can file

1:18:26all those uh communications since the

1:18:28discussion is over.

1:18:30>> Informational. So, we just file uh roll

1:18:33call

1:18:34>> and counselor. Is that all items 4 A

1:18:36through 4E?

1:18:37>> Yes. Uh

1:18:40yeah I would say so because the one that

1:18:42is advertisement that was done as needed

1:18:45and yes from four A through 4E

1:18:48>> thank you councilors Bergman

1:18:49>> yes

1:18:50>> Rosen

1:18:50>> yes

1:18:51>> and chairperson and councelor Mitra

1:18:53>> yes

1:18:55with that uh

1:18:57>> motion to adjourn Mr. motion to

1:18:58[clears throat] I just wish everyone

1:19:00that please move forward because uh yes

1:19:03it is important to see time to time I

1:19:05like the idea of making every 10th year

1:19:08a charter review uh but uh we'll see

1:19:11what we can do about that but

1:19:13nonetheless we are on we have done a

1:19:16educational session and I want everyone

1:19:19to kind of take it seriously and it's

1:19:22not going to be easy to get those

1:19:23signatures but it's not impossible so um

1:19:26I encourage everyone to move forward

1:19:29with to see that what changes would be

1:19:31good for our city, good for our

1:19:32residents. Thank you for coming tonight.

1:19:35Appreciate it very much.

1:19:40>> Call to adjourn the meeting.

1:19:42>> Councilors Bergman,

1:19:43>> yes.

1:19:44>> Rosen,

1:19:44>> yes. And chairperson, councelor Mitra,

1:19:46>> yes.