2026-09-08 - Public Safety Committee

0:02Good evening. Um my name is Kate Tumi.

0:04I'm chair of the public safety

0:06committee. Uh to my uh right is um

0:10Councelor Tony Economo. Uh vice

0:12chairperson Morris Bergman is delayed a

0:14little bit. He'll be here shortly, but

0:16we're going to move get moving. Um we're

0:18being clerked by um the assistant clerk

0:22of the city council uh AJ Fle. Um, we

0:26are joined uh at the desk uh here at

0:29Commissioner of Inspection Services,

0:31Nicholas Ananovika.

0:34Did I say that right this time?

0:36>> I'm sorry. It was Deputy City Clerk. I

0:38didn't mean to say give you a different

0:40title. Here you go. I'm an AJ. Um,

0:43and so, um, we're going to start with

0:47one virtual attendee callin information.

0:50Thank you. Pursuant to chapter 20 of the

0:52acts of 2021, in order to ensure active

0:55public engagement, city worester

0:56currently allows for both inerson and

0:58remote participation at all city council

1:00and standing committee meetings. To

1:02partake in the meeting, you may attend

1:04the meeting in person within the meeting

1:06location. Follow the below below link to

1:08join Zoom or dial the direct line as

1:10indicated. If you join a Zoom meeting by

1:12dialing in with the phone number, you

1:14can raise your hand by dialing star9.

1:16Public Safety Committee Zoom link is

1:17httpsistermma.zoomv.comj161-5547889.

1:28Uh public safety committee zoom phone

1:30number is 16468287666.

1:35Public safety committee zoom access code

1:38is 1615547889.

1:42Um, I'd like to do uh uh ask uh the

1:46deputy city clerk to do a roll call.

1:49>> Councilors Bergman, Economo

1:51>> here,

1:52>> and chairperson councelor Chumi

1:53>> here. Um to approval of the minutes, a

1:56order that the city council standing

1:58committee of public safety hereby

1:59approves the minutes of public safety

2:00committee meeting on June 23rd, 2026.

2:04>> So moved.

2:06>> All those in favor post? So voted. Um,

2:09and then we're going to go to 3A

2:11miscellaneous items. Order of Councelor

2:14Economo, uh, Councelor Jose Rivera,

2:17Councelor Tumi, Council Rosen, Council

2:19Blada request standing committee on

2:21public safety hold a discussion to

2:23review the city's ordinance relative to

2:25excessive and unreasonable noise.

2:27Further requests said discussion include

2:29feasibility of amending the noise

2:30ordinance to allow the creation of a

2:32special noise variance application for

2:34churches, festivals, organizations

2:36holding certain events. see attached for

2:38the western noise ordinance as well as

2:40other municipalities processes that was

2:43in council July 21st 2026. Um

2:47commissioner, do you want to start on

2:50that?

2:57[clears throat]

2:58>> Just to to review, I understand that

3:00there's been um several questions about

3:03the enforcement of the noise ordinance

3:05over the last several months. Um we've

3:08been reviewing the different items that

3:09we have and the enforcability of the

3:13different statutes uh throughout the

3:15ordinance and then also um what the

3:18authority is for each department when we

3:20have uh when we come ac upon the

3:23complaints. Mhm.

3:24>> Um for the the easiest explanation of

3:29how noise ordinances or noise complaints

3:32are handled, um the the two sentence

3:34answer is um the police handle people

3:38complaints and ISD handles um things

3:42complaints. And the way to best describe

3:44that is if you have a loud party or um

3:48there's loud music coming from some

3:50place or uh loud commotion and yelling

3:54um the police would respond to that. If

3:57there is a large a loud HVAC unit or

4:01there's a tonal sound or a buzzing sound

4:05that's coming out of a building or there

4:08may be a violation of a license, that's

4:10where ISD would get involved. Um, one of

4:14the one of the bigger um areas that

4:18we've seen the complaints come in is uh

4:22noise complaints about establishments

4:24and the way that we approach those. Um

4:27the reason why um one of the questions

4:30was is how come we don't go out and take

4:32noise meter readings at establishments

4:35when they when there are loud uh noise

4:38complaints? The reason for that is is

4:40that the loud noise is um for lack of a

4:43better term instantaneous. It may be

4:45continuous for um several minutes or or

4:50uh a little bit of time, but for the

4:53purposes of using a noise meter, um we

4:57need to have that established for

5:00several hours in the area in order to

5:02properly ascertain whether or not a

5:05complaint is uh valid. Um we also need

5:08to have a base level or a um ambient

5:13level uh for the start of the noise.

5:15That is something that through um

5:18through our department and the resources

5:20that we have, we do not have a

5:22continuous ambient noise level um

5:25registered throughout the city. So if we

5:28are looking into complaints, the first

5:30thing that would happen would be that um

5:34one of the uh air and water inspectors

5:36would go out and set up our meters to

5:39establish an ambient level. Then once we

5:42are able to establish an ambient noise

5:45level, then we would come back and take

5:48measurements at the time of incident to

5:50determine if something is higher or

5:52lower. But those are typically measured

5:54over the course of several hours so that

5:57we can get the range of noise in order

5:59to determine its source and what the uh

6:02potential solution for fixes. Um going

6:06back I know that there have been several

6:09complaints uh about establishments and

6:12the way that we have approached those.

6:14The reason why we have approached those

6:17from a licensing and occupancy

6:19standpoint is because those are the

6:22areas that we have the most authority

6:25and most enforcement on. Um affecting

6:28the noise itself is an instantaneous

6:32um measure and is difficult to enforce

6:35at the the specific time from uh the

6:38inspectional services um perspective. So

6:41when we do see items like that, we try

6:44other avenues that um will affect the

6:46business um

6:49more than just the the instantaneous

6:51noise. So we look at it from do they

6:54have the proper licenses to do this?

6:56Have they been to the licensing

6:58commission and have an entertainment

7:00license? Do they have the proper

7:02occupancy for the type of um event

7:05that's being held there? If they do not

7:07have that, then we will say that they

7:09don't have that under their occupancy

7:10laws. So, there are different ways that

7:13we uh enforce the noise ordinance and it

7:16really depends on the situation um which

7:19one of our enforcement abilities is best

7:22for that approach.

7:23>> Okay. So, um I have a question for you

7:26if you don't mind. Um when we're aware

7:28of problem properties, um after one or

7:32two calls, I would think that we would

7:35maybe go out and establish a

7:38you know a basic um what did you call

7:42it? Um

7:43>> ambient.

7:44>> Yep. So,

7:47so that we'd have that established

7:48because if if there's a pattern that

7:50there's this continuously repeating

7:52issue, I I would think that we'd want to

7:55have that established so that we could

7:57>> So, with to you counselor, um again,

8:01with a with an establishment though

8:03where it's produced through music or

8:06speakers or or an item like that,

8:09>> the the ambient um level and then a

8:12noise meter

8:14>> is not going to provide the the

8:18instantaneous violation. We know that

8:20the violation is there. That's that's

8:22the violation as stated through the the

8:25noise ordinance for loud music that be

8:28that can be heard from the street. So, a

8:30meter reading isn't something that is

8:32going to

8:34>> change the fact that yes, that that is a

8:36noise complaint. It's how we're able to

8:38enforce the noise complaint um from that

8:42standpoint on. So if it is an

8:43establishment, the way that we enforce

8:46the enforce the the noises is by the

8:49other avenues.

8:50>> Right. Okay.

8:52>> To the council

8:53>> through the chair to the commissioner.

8:55So just take me through the process at

8:57the time of licensing.

9:01>> I'm a venue. I want to have an event.

9:04There's going to be a band playing or

9:06DJ.

9:08um how's that play out at the license um

9:12commission meeting?

9:13>> Okay, so to you counselor through the

9:16chair um there are two scenarios that

9:19we're looking at uh when we're going in

9:21front of the licensing commission for an

9:23event of that nature. One is for a

9:25permanent establishment that wants to

9:27have bands and entertainment. So at that

9:30point if it is a permanent establishment

9:33um we've gone through uh the rest of the

9:36inspectional services protocol along

9:38with the health department the food

9:40inspectors and the building inspectors

9:42to establish um a use for the uh

9:46building an occupancy for the space and

9:49that it has met all of the safety

9:52requirements from the different building

9:54codes and fire codes. Once that's done,

9:57um there is an application made to the

9:59licensing commission. At the licensing

10:01commission, the establishment will state

10:03what they want that entertainment

10:05license for. If it will be for TVs, if

10:09it will be for DJs or live musics, at

10:12which point they will tell the

10:14commission when they want their

10:16operating hours to be. If it's within

10:19our permitted operating hours, the

10:21commission usually grants the requested

10:23hours. If it is for extended hours,

10:26there is a conversation. But uh usually

10:28the commission will limit the uh hours

10:32of operation within our ordinance hours

10:35so that uh all I believe all um

10:38entertainment needs to be shut down a

10:40half hour before closing.

10:42>> And what would those hours be? Uh

10:44depending on the establishments,

10:46establishments can be open till 2:00

10:48a.m. So there are some establishments

10:50that uh clo that stop their

10:52entertainment between 1 and 1:30. Um

10:54there are other establishments that

10:56close at 12. So they would stop their

10:58entertainment um at 11:30.

11:00>> So through the if I may through the

11:01chair, and don't mean to interrupt you,

11:03but I'm just going to cut to the chase.

11:05>> Mhm.

11:06>> So it's a church.

11:08They're having an event.

11:10What are their hours of operation? What

11:13what is generally allowed

11:16>> through the chair? Um what is allowed

11:20for a religious um building or

11:25>> it's a a wedding birthday party uh

11:28christening? So if it's a if it is a

11:31church without a venue space then it is

11:33not um it's not a use or the building is

11:38not been uh classified as a use for

11:40that. Um if we are looking at the church

11:43themselves it's I believe that would be

11:46an A1 use. It's not an an A2 use is the

11:50one that serves drink and food and has

11:52entertainment. Those have different

11:54safety criteria than other A uses. A

11:57uses are assembly uses. So those would

12:00be areas like churches, synagogues,

12:03gyms, um bars, and other and other

12:06items. So that's that is where if we

12:08were going for a church, going to

12:10licensing commission, they would have to

12:12ask for a special one-day entertainment

12:16license in order to have the event there

12:19that their space is not permitted for.

12:22At that point uh going forward at the

12:25licensing commission it would be

12:26advertised. The abuters would be known

12:28uh that there was a request made for a

12:31one-day license and then the licensing

12:34commission would hear um the applicants

12:37as well as any abutters that would have

12:40any concerns about the one-day license

12:43being issued. So on that

12:46>> go ahead

12:46>> if I may through the chair. So in that

12:49in that discussion in that granting of

12:51the license is

12:55is um

12:57say a gym

12:58>> we want to use it for a wedding

13:01reception u a celebration of some sort

13:07you issue the one day license or the one

13:10the one time license. Does that come

13:12with hours of operation?

13:14Does that come with allowable

13:17sound? Like it's like are you saying to

13:20are you saying to the the applicant look

13:23um you can run up to I don't even know.

13:26I don't I couldn't even tell you what's

13:28an allowable sound. So um and maybe you

13:32can explain what that allowable sound

13:34is. Um

13:38and at midnight or 11:00 p.m. it's done.

13:43it's got to be shut down because I know

13:45in my experiences at some of the

13:47festivals that I'm familiar with um it's

13:50pretty much clockwork.

13:52>> You know, whether the license was issued

13:54till midnight, I can tell you at 11:30

13:58it's shutting down and security and

14:02police on site are escorting

14:04[clears throat] people out. Right.

14:05There's no

14:07um I haven't seen a mincing of words at

14:10that at all. But in other locations, I

14:12see a lot of self- freedom.

14:16Um, and it affects the neighbors. So,

14:19that's what I'm trying to get that's

14:21what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

14:24>> No, uh, through the chair, um, it

14:27becomes

14:29a want on the side of the establishment

14:31as well, um, to control their patrons

14:35and the events that are occurring there.

14:37Um, as far as the entertainment license,

14:42there is also a request on that

14:44application for amplified music.

14:47>> So, that would be where the potential

14:50for the loud noise would be coming from

14:52if that is the case. Um, yes, they can

14:55request a a permit for amplified music

14:58that allows for loud music to be played.

15:02Um, I believe that there are some

15:04conditions that say uh certain things

15:07can't be heard by, you know, by more

15:10than 50 feet at the edge of a certain

15:12property line in those areas for for the

15:15limits of that. Um, and yes, hours of

15:18the event are conditioned on the one day

15:21entertainment amplified um music.

15:24>> So those,

15:25>> if I may, I'm sorry.

15:26>> Go ahead.

15:27>> Um, through the chair. So those hours of

15:30operation are the hours of operation. So

15:33again, say it was from 6:00 p.m. to

15:36midnight. Um,

15:39from from what I'm hearing, at 11:30,

15:41they need to shut it down and by

15:43midnight everybody needs to be gone. If

15:47those were the conditions put in on the

15:49license, yes, that would be through the

15:50chair. Yes. So if they go past midnight

15:54say till 1 pm 1:00 am

15:57through the chair then that would be a

15:59that would be a violation. Okay.

16:01>> So how is that handled? If we through

16:06the chair, if we are made aware of the

16:08violation, um then people if if we are

16:12made aware of the violation and the time

16:14to go out and confirm that it is

16:16occurring, then uh depending on the

16:21responding group, um the the

16:24instructions will be to shut down and

16:26and a fine will be issued. Yeah,

16:28>> I I have a question and then

16:32>> I know you're in the in a role here, but

16:34I I did was So, your inspectors would go

16:37out at 1 o'lock in the morning

16:39>> to the chair. No. Uh the the ISD

16:42inspectors are not responding to noise

16:44complaints at 1 one in the morning. The

16:46only typically the only complaints that

16:48we're responding to at night are fires

16:51and uh displacements.

16:52>> Okay.

16:54Thank you.

16:55>> If I may,

16:56>> you may

16:56>> through the chair. So, is the noise

16:58ordinance in place then till midnight or

17:01is it is there no is there no noise

17:05ordinance period if they issued that

17:07permit to have their event through the

17:10chair? No, the noise ordinance is always

17:12in effect. They just need to follow the

17:15rules of their their permit that they

17:18receive. um that permit allows for

17:21certain exemptions to the noise

17:23ordinance once uh the the licensing

17:25commission issues um that that license.

17:30>> So if through the chair, if I may,

17:32>> yes, you may. Um,

17:35so if an establishment is

17:38violating their permit,

17:42music continues to go on, it's affecting

17:45the neighborhood, the neighborhood's

17:48call is to probably 911 or maybe the

17:51non-emergency number and police would be

17:55the determining factor at that point. uh

17:58through the chair uh but yes the the

18:00responding department would be the

18:02determining factor at that time

18:03>> and from the police department's point

18:05of view I'm sorry through the chair the

18:06police department's point of view

18:09um all of this is triaged right their

18:12calls are I'm sure triaged from

18:15importance and this may just keep

18:17getting bumped down and bumped down

18:18bumped down bumped down as other motor

18:22vehicle accident shooting are going to

18:25take precedence through the chair I am

18:28not familiar with the the police

18:30officers response protocols. I do not

18:32want to answer for them.

18:34>> Okay, that's fine.

18:35>> Chief, maybe the chief can respond to

18:37that.

18:42>> Thank you, Chief.

18:44>> Thanks, Chief.

18:48Through the chair of council, that's

18:50correct. Everything is triaged. So if

18:52you have a more um emergency like call

18:56that's going to take sometimes those

18:58loud or uh noisy calls that come in

19:02could be delayed several hours.

19:04>> Yeah.

19:05>> And it happens you know that's change of

19:07shift. Right. Sure.

19:08>> Most of the calls that happen at 12 1:00

19:10in the morning we are changing shifts

19:12and

19:13>> officers have to go to those more

19:15pressing calls.

19:17>> So if I may

19:18>> certainly

19:19>> you can cut me off at any time. I'm

19:20sorry.

19:22Um,

19:23so in a situation like that, the police

19:25get called, they'll get there when they

19:27can get there. They arrive on scene.

19:31um either it's it's done

19:35or it's continuing.

19:39But it sounds to me that we don't have

19:41the ability to

19:44um test maybe is if that's the right

19:47word or find out if they are violating

19:51the noise ordinance. We know they're

19:53violating the time ordinance. They could

19:55be violating the noise ordinance, but we

19:57don't Am I safe to assume we don't have

20:00noise meters? You know, I'm sure the

20:02police aren't carrying noise meters

20:04around with them

20:06through to the council. It's correct. We

20:08do not have noise meters.

20:10>> So, when a when an entity continues to

20:12constantly violate

20:16their

20:18license to operate their event,

20:23how is that? How is that um information

20:27sent forth to the license commission? So

20:30when they come back again for another

20:33license to have that event

20:36um it's either further scrutinized or

20:38it's just denied.

20:41I don't know through the share of

20:43council if it was a police related call

20:46and it's a problem property. so many

20:49calls within so much period of time.

20:52That information is related to the

20:55license commission as far as the liquor

20:57license if there is one. If there's no

20:59liquor license, I believe that falls

21:02towards inspectional services

21:04>> through the chair. Um we we do notify

21:07the council. Um our the licensing

21:11commission um liaison is in the ISD

21:14department. So we we coordinate with

21:16them and then if there is uh an issue

21:18with an establishment I go to the

21:21licensing commission meetings and and

21:23speak on behalf of ISD if we have

21:25concerns

21:27if I may.

21:28>> Yeah. One more.

21:29>> Is is parking part of their licensing

21:34through the chair? Uh no. So they can

21:37park anywhere they want. They can park

21:39in their spa their building's property.

21:43They're free to parking on a butter's

21:44property and so forth. So through the

21:48chair, no, that's not that's not

21:50acceptable. They just they don't have

21:53the ability to grant permission for

21:55people to park anywhere. That doesn't

21:56give people permission to park wherever

21:58they want. The licensing commission just

22:01doesn't have the ability to give people

22:05permission to park places. So, regarding

22:09that, if they're parking on a public

22:11street, there's no

22:14even though it might be in front of

22:15somebody's house, there's no way to stop

22:17that because it's a public street.

22:19>> Correct.

22:20>> Through the chair. Well, that would

22:21depend on the parking signs in that

22:24area. If there were any parking

22:25restrictions at that point, it would be

22:27a mobility and traffic um violation.

22:31>> So, I I I guess my big concern is

22:34striking a balance, right?

22:36If there's anything, you got to have a

22:38balance. If there's no balance,

22:40somebody's not having a good time,

22:41right? And in the area,

22:43>> you know, unfortunately, I'm dealing

22:45with two houses of worship that seem to

22:49be the biggest problems I've been

22:52dealing with in the last eight months.

22:54And um in some cases, I feel okay, maybe

23:00a little leniency should be given to

23:02them. But

23:05the more I'm hearing it myself and

23:08seeing it, uh, I'm starting to believe

23:10the latter. And it's becoming a problem.

23:13And it's becoming a problem in an area

23:15where people are trying to have quiet

23:16enjoyment of their own property. And,

23:21you know, I could see a one-off festival

23:24as you see it throughout the city. It's

23:26not every month. It's not every week,

23:28but there are instances in some some of

23:31these organizations where it's

23:33weekly, monthly, multiple nights a week

23:36and it's getting out of control and

23:39um

23:41I don't feel we have the teeth in our

23:45ordinance to handle it. Um and with

23:49that, Madam Chair, through you maybe a

23:52chairman's order is to significantly

23:54raise

23:56um the violation fee. So it does hurt

24:03uh within the standards of the law that

24:06we

24:07>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, I think

24:08it's got to be looked at because I saw

24:10in here was $50 and if that's the fee,

24:12it's like, "Yeah, whatever. I'll give

24:14you the $50. I'm going to have a great

24:15time."

24:16>> So, I I want to say uh and I know

24:18councelor Bergman has uh been here for a

24:21while as well that this is not just this

24:24year, not it was in your term before the

24:27last.

24:27>> Yes, I understand. Two terms before

24:30that. So, it's been an ongoing issue.

24:33Um, and it's something that I think that

24:36the neighborhoods really have been

24:38dealing with a lot. And so I think um

24:41this is a good first step to um increase

24:43the the fine um

24:46>> because even and if I may through the

24:48chair even with that too if there's a

24:50problem property then I think it's now I

24:54think it's it falls upon us to find what

24:58the ambient noise level is

25:01>> you know and maybe incrementally find

25:02that out you know from 20 feet 30 feet

25:0540t 50 100 feet so we have a baseline

25:10And then I feel also that at some point

25:14somebody on shift in the police

25:17department should be tasked with a sound

25:21whatever you I don't know what you call

25:23them.

25:23>> Sound meter.

25:24>> Sound meter. Um and I understand that

25:28that's not always the case where you're

25:29going to be there at the moment things

25:31are happening. Um, but we do have a

25:34permit

25:35of hours of operation and

25:39from what I'm seeing and hearing,

25:41there's violations there. And again, I'm

25:44not trying to I get it cuz my church,

25:47they, you know, they have a huge

25:48festival every other year and as do

25:50many, but it's for three days. And like

25:53I said, I I feel they at the end of the

25:56day when 11:30 comes, they're literally

25:59clearing the place out. the music stops.

26:01They're clearing the place out. The

26:03police, the security on site are

26:05ushering people out the door. And I

26:09think that should be the way

26:11um throughout and on top of that, while

26:15I'm on my soap box, is it required to

26:19have Worcester police present

26:23at any event of that nature?

26:27Through the to the chair. Um that's a

26:31that's a determination of the licensing

26:33commission and the people that are there

26:35as far as the conditions for large

26:37events. We always uh request a police

26:40detail or make sure that the police are

26:43going to be there along with fire

26:44department members and inspectional

26:46services members depending on the event.

26:49Um regarding some of these items um we

26:53have taken in we've heard the concerns.

26:55we have taken into consideration a lot

26:57of the items that are there. One of the

26:59items that we were deficient on in

27:02inspectional services was the way that

27:05we were documenting these complaints.

27:07So, we've made some changes on the way

27:10that we go about doing the documentation

27:12and speaking with the people and then

27:13also making notices to those uh to those

27:17establishments so that we have a better

27:19record so that when we move forward with

27:21strengthened enforcement, there is a a

27:24track line and then a better case if we

27:27end up taking it to the full extent

27:28where we would go to court to to remove

27:31a license or add additional sanctions.

27:34And again, I'm not I [clears throat]

27:36appreciate all that you guys do. You can

27:38only do what you can do, right? And I

27:40appreciate that. And I think it's

27:41incumbent upon the council, too, to be

27:43part of the solution as well. Um,

27:47and and again, I'm it pulls at me in

27:50both directions because I understand

27:54the church wanting to use its properties

27:56for its purposes, right? But when it

28:00when it contin continuously becomes

28:04a problem in any neighborhood,

28:08um I think that's when we need to step

28:09in and really take a look at it. And I

28:12would like to think that the license

28:14commission is aware of every violation

28:18an entity would have if it's been

28:21habitual for years because then I think

28:25it's a it comes upon the license

28:27commission to be a little more stern in

28:30their dealings.

28:33>> I'll leave it at that.

28:34>> Okay.

28:35>> Thank you. Um before we go on um AJ uh

28:38we'll have a chairman's order uh

28:40requesting um the law department to

28:43identify um how uh

28:47how high we can uh significantly raise

28:50the fee the fine for noise ordinance.

28:55>> Thank you Madam Chair. Absolutely. And

28:56uh would you like to that to include a

28:58draft ordinance once that's determined?

29:00>> Yes, please.

29:00>> Thank you.

29:01>> Thank you. All right. Do you have any

29:03questions?

29:04>> You don't mind? Nope.

29:05>> Madam Chair, let the law department

29:07answer that, but just for purpose

29:10to know how far or how little we can go

29:13with the incentive or disincentive, I

29:16think it's $300. So, but we'll wait for

29:18the law department to come back and give

29:19us that answer. I have a kind of a

29:22similar take, councelor Conamu. Um, but

29:26I have a couple questions and maybe

29:28slightly variant on on what's being

29:31asked. It's been a while, but somebody

29:34applies through the chair for a license

29:36for this one-day event. Um,

29:40[clears throat] let's get scheduled for

29:41the lodge through the license

29:42commission. Is that correct?

29:44>> Yes. Through the chair. Yes.

29:45>> And where do notices go? Who do they go

29:48to?

29:49>> Through the chair. Um I depending on the

29:52event that goes in, it goes out on uh on

29:55a public notice, but I don't know if

29:57it's a full of butters list or if it's

30:01just the Jason properties where it goes.

30:03>> Because here's where I'm going with it.

30:04Try to cut to the chase on it. Seems to

30:06me that we may have reached the point

30:09given the inability and it's not a

30:11criticism, it's reality of being able to

30:14monitor every one day license we have up

30:16there. that there should be an abutters

30:19list and there should be a hearing. If

30:21nobody if everybody's content with the

30:24event, then nobody's going to show up

30:25and complain. If people have had a prior

30:27history of a bad experience with the

30:30event, they're going to point out the

30:32issues that the license commission has

30:34to address with the petitioner. What

30:37time are you going to stop? How do we

30:38know you're going to stop? You're going

30:39to have a police officer there on a

30:42private detail.

30:44um I I would you pay for a noise monitor

30:46so that you can see if you're violating

30:49the noise um ordinance

30:52so on and so forth. Why not? I don't

30:54think it's too much to put the burden on

30:56the applicant. If they're doing nothing

30:58wrong and the neighbors are happy,

30:59they're not going to have to do anything

31:00more than they already do except for

31:02show up for hearing. If they're creating

31:04an event that's creating chaos in the

31:07neighborhood, then they're going to hear

31:08it. But that's what we do with almost

31:10every hearing. We invite the neighbors

31:12and we tell them what's your input,

31:14what's going, what's good and what's

31:16not. I mean, I I think that in the old

31:20days maybe we could have gotten away

31:22without having that kind of um input

31:25from the neighbors because I think the

31:27Well, let me ask you this through the

31:28chair. Do you know um Commissioner has a

31:31number of requests gone up or down over

31:33the last few years exclude COVID for

31:36requests for these licenses, these

31:38one-day liquor licenses? through the

31:40chair. Um, without having the the data

31:43in front of me, just from seeing the

31:45number of hearings, I would say that

31:46we've seen an increase

31:47>> because I would think they've

31:49exponentially gone up

31:51>> and I don't think we can handle it

31:52anymore without having hearings. That's

31:54just my

31:55>> that's my own opinion

31:56>> through the chair. The other thing that

31:57we're noticing as well is that it's not

32:00just the increase of the number of

32:02events, it's the size of the events. All

32:04of the events are starting to grow, too.

32:06Well, that well that just makes me feel

32:08even more um

32:11I don't want to use the word confident

32:12but feel more that the direction we

32:15should be going in is to consider um

32:18what is what would a permitting process

32:20look like in the sense of public notice

32:22and I don't know if madam chair's

32:23interest in chairperson's order but I

32:26don't see the burden on doing that

32:28because I think most of these are going

32:30to be routine check the box but the

32:33larger ones may require more work as as

32:36far as getting the answers to these

32:38questions.

32:40>> All right, AJ, get that to GM's order.

32:44>> Sure thing, Madam Chair. Got it.

32:46>> By the way, the last comment is the ones

32:48that have had successful events in the

32:51past are probably going to sail through

32:54any sort of hearing because everybody

32:56knows they do the right thing. So, ones

32:58that don't do the right thing are going

33:00to kind of get stopped in their tracks.

33:01And it's a way I think and maybe the

33:04only way um

33:06to stop the bad behavior.

33:09>> So um the increase in number what is the

33:13the for every venue they have a limit of

33:17how many people that they can get. We

33:18we're finding out that they're they're

33:20not um complying with that that they're

33:24overstepping the the numbers

33:27>> through the chair. That's that's one um

33:30item that we're finding in places.

33:32That's not always the the issue um is is

33:36over capacity. Uh again, it it could be

33:39that they're uh playing amplified music

33:43without having the proper license or

33:44they're going too late. So, it's not

33:46it's not always an over capacity, but

33:48yes, every place that does have a

33:50license or is a place of assembly has a

33:54capacity limit that's provided that they

33:56cannot go over. councelor

34:00>> through the chair.

34:02At at the beginning of a shift or a day

34:05or an evening, are the police notified

34:08of what events are going on in the city?

34:12>> Is there a is there a list that goes out

34:14to

34:17the officers just so they are aware

34:20what's going on and where it's going on

34:22at?

34:23>> Through the chair. Uh we do not have a

34:26daily list that goes out uh to the

34:28police. We do uh coordinate um with our

34:32officers on a weekly basis. Um we meet

34:35every Wednesday and go through uh the

34:37different events that are going on and

34:39different items that are coming up at

34:40the licensing commission. Discuss if

34:42there are any issues at that point and

34:45then make any determinations or or take

34:48any actions that are necessary.

34:50>> It's a weekly weekly report.

34:53>> Yeah.

34:54So, I guess what what really got my vote

34:57on this

34:59the entity I'm referencing and I

35:02appreciate all that you've done to help

35:05you. I was lied to right to my face and

35:08that's right. That's right.

35:11You know, first time meeting

35:14lied to right out of the gate and that's

35:18I'm all set. So, you know, my

35:20responsibility is not to try to keep I

35:23want to try to keep the peace, but I

35:26don't I lose a lot of respect for people

35:29like that. So, that's what I'm I'm going

35:32to fight this as far as I can.

35:36>> Council, you have another another

35:38question.

35:39>> I am also

35:40>> So, um so we've got two chairman reports

35:44uh coming back. Is there anything else

35:45that uh you would recommend that we take

35:48a look at maybe get a list of um

35:54>> yeah, you know, I don't again I don't

35:56know how it would look like from the

35:58police side of things. I I actually

35:59agree with Council Bergman. I think the

36:01burden should be put on to the

36:04applicant

36:05>> absolutely

36:06>> to police.

36:08But I think I think it's our

36:10responsibility to have the baseline,

36:14>> right? We're this is the baseline. So

36:16whatever you know 50 dB is the number

36:20then you know at 20 ft 30t 40 50 100 ft

36:24this is what I expect to hear for if you

36:26go over this you're in violation if you

36:29go past your permit you're in violation

36:32and I think all that should come back to

36:34the to the license commission they

36:37should have that information in front of

36:38them how many times it happens um has

36:42happened and continues to happen and

36:45then I think As councelor Bergman said,

36:49whether it's

36:51every a butter and their abutters, I

36:54don't know how far the noise level goes

36:57or how it travels in in air. Um, I think

37:00it might be time to notify the abutters

37:03and they can come down to the license

37:05commission or file their their report on

37:09what they experience on a regular basis.

37:12So um then we're requesting requesting a

37:16change in the whole policy and having

37:18those um problem properties will be

37:21required to uh come down to uh a

37:25hearing.

37:25>> Yeah. I will

37:26>> and and in addition to that I want want

37:28to ask the chief um because you had

37:31suggested it that the uh officers have a

37:34meter in their trunk but I have a

37:36question. Would that require that would

37:38require training? How much time would

37:40that be?

37:42through the through the chair for the

37:44ISD staff members to get trained. It

37:47took a couple of days. First, it's to

37:49learn how to take the readings, set up

37:51the meters, observe, watch it happening.

37:54And then the second day is to learn how

37:56to read the results. So, going through

37:58and looking at the different noise

38:00results, each of the different pitches

38:02mean different things and different

38:03items. So, it's about two days to

38:06>> So, I'm I'm thinking is it possible to

38:10instead of having an officer do it?

38:13There's certainly a lot of other things

38:15out there. Is it possible to um

38:19reschedule somebody's time so that

38:21they're available later in the evening?

38:23Um I'm just thinking about

38:26>> through the through the chair. I have a

38:28lot of staff that is always interested

38:30in overtime. I think that we could

38:32figure something out.

38:34So it just I mean it seems to me like

38:36this it's kind of a specialty and

38:38>> through the chair. Yes, it is. Um it's

38:40it's the the meters are very sensitive

38:43as well depending on the the kind we

38:45get. I believe we have one of the more

38:48sensitive ones for it. They're they're

38:50$6,500 uh device um in order to get the

38:54proper tonal readings that we are

38:56looking for when it goes through. So uh

38:59yes, we can definitely make those

39:00adjustments. because that seems to make

39:02more more sense to me.

39:05>> Sure. Go ahead.

39:06>> Just just one last thought maybe

39:08question.

39:10You know, I'm all for the uh the meter

39:12readings and all that, but it seems to

39:14me going back to to what we talked about

39:16earlier, there's a process and I don't

39:19know exactly what it's going to look

39:20like, if it's going to happen at all,

39:21but something along the lines of what we

39:23were talking about the abuters getting

39:24notified. The beauty of that to me is

39:27that whether there's a meter that we

39:29have uh that we used or one we weren't

39:32able to use because we didn't have it or

39:33we got there too late or was on the

39:35border and somebody really wasn't sure

39:37how to interpret it. All that matters,

39:39but it matters to me less than how the

39:42people in the neighborhood felt about

39:44how it went because invariably I'm going

39:46to guess, you could tell me I'm all

39:48wrong and I'm sure we don't have the

39:50numbers, but we probably could get them.

39:51I'm going to guess that the majority of

39:53applicants are repeat applicants.

39:55There's an event all the time, once,

39:58twice, maybe more times a year. So, the

40:01system, if we were to adopt some sort of

40:03hearing, would regulate itself in some

40:06ways without even a noise meter because

40:09once the neighbors got noticed and they

40:11say, you know what, last time you guys

40:13abused the privilege of having uh the

40:16liquor license because you didn't play

40:18the rules. You were too loud. You went

40:20on too long, whatever. So yes, I agree

40:22we need a meter, but a noise meter,

40:24whatever the proper term is. But I also

40:27really would like us all to think about

40:29what some sort of process would look

40:31like where the neighborhood input um can

40:35really have a major effect because right

40:37now I I'm guessing nobody shows up.

40:39Those meetings, by the way, at the

40:40license commission, if I remember,

40:42they're during the day um as well.

40:44They're not exactly the time that a lot

40:47of people that are working are going to

40:48show up

40:49>> through through the chair. Yes, they are

40:51from 10 to 12 on the 2nd and fourth

40:55Thursday of each month. So, they're

40:57they're a little bit uh not convenient

41:00for uh working members, but we do have

41:02the online option if people are able to

41:04to remote in if they have concerns. Um,

41:08one item that I do want to bring up is

41:10that we are talking about um having the

41:13hearings and people coming in and what

41:15we do to to people with licenses if they

41:18violate it. One of the the issues that

41:21we've been dealing with though is that

41:23one of the places that has been of the

41:25biggest concern hasn't been going for

41:27the licenses and hasn't been getting um

41:30the one days or going before the board.

41:32That's why we were having such

41:34difficulty in enforcing certain things

41:36and why we took certain tactics because

41:39they were not coming in front of the

41:41board in order to get a license for us

41:43to put forth these things. We were

41:45getting complaints because they were

41:47having these events without going to the

41:49board.

41:50>> So through the I'm sorry.

41:52>> So what's what is the uh what's the end

41:55result for this

41:57>> through the chair? That's

41:58>> this particular entity. Well, through

42:00the chair, that's why we had started the

42:03process in order to uh revoke their

42:07certificate of occupancy and uh come in

42:11and and add the additional um

42:14enforcement items that we did by

42:16declaring the building unsafe for those

42:18type of events and and those items. So,

42:22we did take certain actions. We were we

42:25were told that the uh activities were

42:28going to stop. We were under the

42:31impression that they had and then we we

42:34received some notifications over the

42:36weekend that they had not. So we are

42:38going to be looking into some additional

42:41enforcement for that area

42:42>> such as

42:43>> well we have to determine if it's a a

42:45oneoff for this weekend because again

42:48for the last three months we haven't had

42:49any complaints. If it was a one offer

42:52this weekend and we have the evidence to

42:55prove it, they'll be issued a fine and

42:57told, you know, please, you know, don't

43:00do it again. If it continues, then we

43:02will take the additional actions that we

43:05threatened before up to the removal of

43:07occupancy for that building.

43:10council.

43:14>> I see that as a complete disrespect

43:17of the neighborhood,

43:20yourself and the people that you are

43:23allowing

43:24to use your property. Something goes

43:27wrong

43:29who we got major problems. If something

43:33goes wrong in a building like that, and

43:35again, I'm not this isn't coming at you

43:38or the or the chief, but just thinking

43:40about it, it's like that's a complete

43:42disrespect to all of us.

43:45And

43:46if the fine is a $50 fine,

43:49send all the fines you want. That's why

43:51I asked for that. Um,

43:53>> right.

43:55And then I also I I got to think is

43:59when do you just put a chain around the

44:01whole place and just lock it up?

44:03>> So through the through the

44:05>> And it floors me too where it's coming

44:07this is coming from a house of worship

44:10not not not

44:13Joe Schmo

44:14>> down the street. I understand through

44:16the chair that was part of the reason

44:18why we went um we use the building code

44:21for enforcement because through the

44:23building code I can find up to $1,000

44:25for each violation and that's what we

44:28were planning on doing for the for the

44:30continued enforcement was to to go for

44:32the higher fines.

44:33>> Um I believe that that does send a

44:36message when people are are not

44:39following what they need to do. So I I

44:41do try and find the maximum possible and

44:44get them up as high as we can so that we

44:46can get the attention that we need to

44:49resolve the situation.

44:50>> Okay. So can we have um for a chairman's

44:54supporter can we have a a report on this

44:58process step by step um

45:02including you know

45:04contacting the neighbors and

45:07uh and I think you should also um have

45:10identify a list of problem properties

45:12for the past year or two years. Um

45:16>> and I think that would be that would be

45:18helpful too. Um

45:21and then uh come back with that

45:24proposed. Is that something um AJ is

45:27that something that we have to approve

45:29council when they change the policy or

45:31is that something that's done?

45:35>> Madam Chair, I think it may make the

45:36most sense to get a report on the policy

45:40and then any changes that may be

45:42>> that could be implemented as a result of

45:44them. I I don't know. It sounds

45:46administrative in nature, the policy

45:48itself, but

45:50>> um the ordinance would definitely fall

45:52under um city council authority. For

45:54example, if we do increase the fines, um

45:57that would be an ordinance that we would

45:59need to update. Um but that would be um

46:03the extent that I can think of off the

46:04top of my head right now.

46:06>> Okay. All right.

46:09>> Madam Chair, I think this is a great

46:10place to start. I I also

46:13>> when that report comes back, we can

46:15bring it back to committee and I, you

46:17know, I'd like us to at least take a

46:19look at some other communities and what

46:20they're doing with their uh

46:22>> right

46:22>> permitting process and

46:24>> some best practices.

46:25>> Yeah.

46:26>> Because I think um it might be time for

46:28a change on how we handle it or even log

46:31it into our system

46:33um for enforcement.

46:36>> Yeah. Very good. Uh so uh this

46:41particular order we can we can uh file

46:44and then we'll have that come back to

46:46the committee.

46:48>> Great.

46:48>> All right. Um all those in favor so

46:51voted. Thank you very much commissioner.

46:53I appreciate it.

46:54>> Thank you.

46:55>> Thank you gentlemen.

46:56>> Thank you commission uh chief for uh

46:59popping in on that. Um now we have uh 4A

47:03uh transmitting informationational

47:05communication relative to the hospital

47:06guard with the police department chief

47:11>> to the chair. So

47:14whenever anybody is in our custody we

47:17basically

47:19own that person as far as anything that

47:21happens to them if they're hurt whatever

47:24we have to make sure they receive

47:25treatment. So, if you are being detained

47:29in our building, we have to take you to

47:31the hospital. In order to do that, we

47:33need to have an officer

47:36with the arrestee as they go to the

47:38hospital, they're handcuffed, and if the

47:43handcuffs need to come off to be

47:45treated, we do that. So, some incidents

47:48they go up there for a relatively short

47:50time, other times they could be up there

47:53for days. We try to work with the clerk

47:55magistrate to have them bailed if it is

47:58available

47:59um arrest. Sometimes that does not work.

48:03So if you look at

48:07last year 2025 we spent

48:11we had 733 hospital guards totaling

48:146,758

48:16hours. So those officers come off the

48:19street and they are at the hospital

48:22obviously only paying attention to one

48:24thing and that is the arresty. So that

48:27does not help with any type of crime

48:29reduction. Same thing for uh 2026

48:33from January to April we had 251

48:38for 3,244

48:40hours. So realistically the only way to

48:45do something different is to have people

48:48staged on overtime. You can call The

48:50problem is the weekends,

48:52>> right?

48:52>> And

48:54you know, we can only have so many

48:56people off.

48:57>> Yep.

48:58>> During the week and we max maximize what

49:01they can do on the weekends. Everybody

49:03wants a weekend off. Unfortunately, we

49:05don't get them. So

49:09when you have three or four arrestes at

49:11the hospital now you get approximately

49:1415 to 16 police officers

49:17uh policing a city of 210,000.

49:22It's not too good.

49:23>> No, not at all. Um,

49:26so

49:28I'm just looking have um, so these

49:32individuals when they're in the

49:33emergency room um, they're in a regular

49:37they're either in the hall which is

49:38where a lot of people are these days

49:40holding um, or they're in a regular

49:43room. There's no secure

49:46uh, area.

49:49Would that be helpful if you talked to

49:52the hospitals to establish a secure

49:54>> unit

49:55>> unit?

49:56>> Uh to the chair. The problem is it's not

49:58just us.

49:59>> Uh Wisconsin sheriff's department has to

50:01go to the hospital. Other

50:03>> agencies outside of Wester Hass. So I

50:06don't know how they could secure a

50:07location just for arresties.

50:11>> So as you said, usually they're in the

50:13hallway. Very rarely are they in a room

50:15unless they're being admitted

50:17>> for several days. Okay. Um, is there is

50:21is there any other way that you could

50:25think of? I I think I've

50:28know uh

50:32than what we're doing. Is there anything

50:34any other department's doing that's the

50:37situation or

50:39to the chair? We can't really

50:43put us up against other departments.

50:45We're the second largest police

50:46department in New England. So

50:49we are trying to do things through

50:51contract negotiations as far as hours

50:55>> um that's still out there where

50:58different hours that the officers work.

51:00That would be one solution but we have

51:03to wait until that

51:04>> comes to fruition. We can't do anything

51:06with it now.

51:07>> Okay.

51:08>> If I may.

51:09>> Yep. Sure.

51:11So each through the chair if to the

51:14chief if

51:17if a root officer is on his way to the

51:20hospital with a patient

51:25and then another call comes in that root

51:28officer also

51:31is with that person. So there's two

51:34officers with two different people,

51:35correct? For security

51:37>> through the chair of the counselor, the

51:39person under arrest will be going by

51:42wagon.

51:42>> Y

51:43>> and the officer is called to leave his

51:45or her route to go up to the hospital.

51:48>> Okay.

51:48>> So now you have two officers in route.

51:51If another call comes in for another

51:54prisoner going up, then you have another

51:56officer coming up. So, realistically,

51:59we've I think it was this week. I get I

52:01get a thing every eight hours on what's

52:03going on. And

52:04>> yeah,

52:04>> we uh I think we had four or five on

52:07Sunday.

52:08>> So, what would um I I guess

52:12just I'm trying to think how you would

52:14handle something like that even even on

52:16overtime, right? Because you could have

52:17a day where it's just quiet and nobody

52:20goes or you get a a day like you had

52:23where you had five going. Um, how would

52:26how would that any idea how that might

52:28look?

52:30>> Through chain of counsel, you'd have to

52:32put people like on a standby.

52:34>> Yeah.

52:34>> Like a call bus.

52:36>> And we would try to only do that with

52:38people being admitted.

52:40>> Okay.

52:40>> Cuz it's just it's just

52:42>> overwhelming.

52:42>> It' be very very difficult.

52:44>> Be crazy.

52:45>> We tried it for a little while a couple

52:47years back, but it really wasn't uh

52:50didn't work out too well.

52:56No, you're ready.

52:57>> Go ahead.

52:59>> Thank you, Madam Chair. Through the

53:00chair to the uh to the chief. Um just

53:04one of my questions. Is this I know it's

53:08department policy. Is this more than a

53:11policy as far as it being like a state

53:13law that you have to accomp x number of

53:15officers have to accompany an injured

53:17person or is it department policy?

53:20through the chair of councel. It is only

53:22one officer but one has to transport him

53:25up there and then that officer returns

53:28as the other officer had has uh arrived.

53:32So now they do two to four hour

53:34increments. So you know going out at

53:37roll call that you have the 12:00 shift.

53:40So you leave your route to meet the

53:42other officer and relieve them and that

53:45officer leaves and goes back on their

53:47route. if there's only one guy.

53:49>> So, in addition to the time it takes to

53:51transport to the hospital through the

53:53chair, it's also the lost ability to

53:56police by

53:58uh driving back and forth to relieve

54:00each other

54:01>> through the chair. That's correct.

54:03>> I tell you what, my concern is I'm also

54:05I'm actually hesitant to even say it out

54:07loud, but I'm sure I'm not saying

54:10anything that people haven't thought of.

54:11If there was ever, god forbid, concerted

54:14effort by any, you know, group of bad

54:17people um to do harm in Worcester, it

54:19seems to me they could stage very easily

54:22a number of people being injured and

54:24really deplete a particular shift and

54:27then go on and do something they they

54:29intended to do. So, I mean, it's it's a

54:32deep concern of mine um as it is all of

54:34ours. So through the chair to the chief

54:36what we've talked about this before

54:38would increasing the number of police

54:40officers which for a variety of reasons

54:42in addition to this reason I believe we

54:44need to get to that 500 level I know a

54:46lot of my colleagues do as well would

54:48that help

54:50>> through the chair of the council I've

54:51always been an advocate for double cars

54:54because if you have a double car

54:57>> at least bringing the officer up there

55:00dropping them off and that car can then

55:02go back into service

55:03>> right

55:04>> so at least At least you would still

55:05have one route officer on the route.

55:09Right now, it's very rare that we have

55:11double cars. And the other part of that

55:13is if you go to an alarm call, you need

55:15two cars.

55:16>> If you go to a domestic, you need two

55:18cars.

55:18>> So you have cars coming from and as far

55:21as a noise ordinance, whoever has that

55:23in their trunk may not be the guy.

55:25>> Right.

55:26>> So it's

55:26>> that's why I suggested that.

55:28>> So So increased number of the officers

55:32would be a help.

55:33>> Yes. for a lot of reasons including this

55:36one.

55:36>> All right. Thank you.

55:38>> So through the chair, how do we how do

55:39we make this

55:42>> change? Because not only is it an issue

55:46with officers, but now you have a route

55:48that's vacant,

55:49>> right?

55:50>> Other officers are coming from other

55:52parts of the city to cover that route,

55:54which also is leaving that area

55:58unprepared. Um, so it's a it's quite an

56:02issue in my opinion as I see it sitting

56:04here tonight. And I don't I agree with

56:07the double officers in the car cuz at

56:09least it gives you that flexibility.

56:12Um, what would need to take place to

56:15make that happen in the short term?

56:17Anyways, through chair of council, not

56:20only is it more effective, it's safer.

56:23In addition to that, what I would do was

56:26if I had the personnel, I would make the

56:29route smaller. That way you have less

56:32jurisdiction to cover and you put more

56:34people out so that when there are people

56:36leaving, they can more easily

56:40cover that smaller jurisdiction or

56:43route. So we have 20 right now, make it

56:4630. And it should be done by a study of

56:51where the most calls are coming from.

56:53Right now it's 20 roots. It's been that

56:55way probably for 50 years. We need to

56:59come together and maximize

57:02the technology we have that can tell us

57:05when and where the calls are coming and

57:07then you deploy your troops according to

57:10that.

57:12>> But you need the personnel to do it.

57:16That's um

57:17>> to the chair. I would I would ask for a

57:20chairman's order on that to ask the

57:21manager and the chief to come forward

57:23with something.

57:24>> Yeah.

57:25>> Um at least we can get an idea what it

57:27would look like, what it would cost,

57:30at least start it in some manner.

57:33Doesn't have to be full-blown, but at

57:34least I agree. Follow the data.

57:38>> Right.

57:39>> Um

57:40>> so we'll do a chairman's order for

57:42report uh on that. And um

57:47>> yeah,

57:49>> mean to interrupt your train of thought,

57:50but um the one question I forgot to ask,

57:53in addition to increasing the number of

57:55police officers,

57:57would have going back to some sort of

58:00precinct police stations

58:03help um if we had enough personnel as

58:06far as minimizing the trips to the

58:08hospital and so on and so forth. Um

58:11because that's system that used to be in

58:13place and I know a lot of people in a

58:15lot of neighborhoods

58:17love to see police officers walking down

58:19their neighbor. I mean you know this

58:21notion only certain neighborhoods

58:23get walking beats uh and others don't

58:27maybe some truth to it but it has to do

58:28with personnel. I think every

58:30neighborhood should have in every

58:31district. I we've talked about I brought

58:33that up before having precincts and

58:35>> right through through chair of the

58:37council I wrote that plan and within it

58:40was that we were going to have to

58:42maximize the number of officers to make

58:45that work.

58:46>> The the key to that is to have the same

58:48officers in the same area every single

58:50day. That way you have that community

58:52engagement.

58:54>> If you don't have enough cops then

58:55you're going to keep switching them to

58:57different precincts. And that's why that

58:59was not a viable alternative.

59:01>> Can I just add a comment? No more

59:03questions. All this goes back to me. You

59:05know, we just finished a budget, billion

59:07dollar budget. I think going back into

59:09the next budget cycle. Um there has to

59:12be a cohesive unified um message to the

59:17city manager that it's time to start. I

59:21know it's challenge challenge to keep

59:22what we got, but we have to start

59:24figuring out how do we get to that 500

59:27number because we can't just keep

59:28treading water and just trying to equal

59:31what we've got when we have college kids

59:33here that make our population larger.

59:35We've got a population that grows more

59:37than any other city historically in the

59:39last decade. Um, and proportionally,

59:42we've talked about this on the council

59:44floor. Worcester has less police

59:46officers per as a percentage of

59:48population than every other major city

59:50in New England, Providence, Springfield,

59:52so on and so forth. So, I mean, those of

59:54us that believe that that's part of the

59:56solution, I think there's a good number

59:58of us have to make sure that next year's

1:00:00budget includes a game plan. It's not

1:00:02going to happen in a year, but it's

1:00:03going to start happening.

1:00:04>> Chief,

1:00:05>> I would agree if if I could just add to

1:00:07that. So,

1:00:08>> we have been fortunate that we get a

1:00:10class every year. The issue is

1:00:13sustaining

1:00:15those that are going to be leaving. Like

1:00:16my class, the class before me

1:00:2030, we all have 32 years,

1:00:22>> right?

1:00:23>> Why do you stay longer when you're

1:00:25working for 20 cents on the dollar?

1:00:28That's the question,

1:00:30>> right? With everything going on, that's

1:00:32your in reality, that's what you're

1:00:34being paid because you're already at

1:00:3680%. So people leave, they go to other

1:00:39agencies or they leave and get other

1:00:41jobs. Um, so now like today we're

1:00:44probably down 70 75 cops. So you you

1:00:49it's very difficult to sustain that. I

1:00:51advocated and I've said it before two

1:00:54classes a year to try to get that number

1:00:57up.

1:00:59That's something that I think we

1:01:00absolutely should be asking

1:01:03in the form of a chairman's order that

1:01:06the U manager u

1:01:09put on an extra class. Would you also

1:01:12consider on that order to include

1:01:15looking at what other municipalities

1:01:17might be doing to incentivize officers

1:01:20from from retiring?

1:01:22>> I think we have an order. I think I did

1:01:24put an order in on that. Maybe maybe

1:01:27remind certain people that we need that

1:01:29answer.

1:01:29>> Yeah. AJ, did you hear that?

1:01:32>> Madam Chair, I'm sorry. Could you repeat

1:01:34that?

1:01:34>> Sure. I I I think I I had filed an order

1:01:37requesting what other uh cities and

1:01:39towns are doing to incentivize um

1:01:42recruit recruiting and transfers of

1:01:44police officers. Um but if we haven't,

1:01:48then I'd like to do that as a chairman's

1:01:50order.

1:01:51>> And otherwise, perhaps we could just get

1:01:52an update on where that's at either way.

1:01:54So yeah, we can put that in. No problem.

1:01:57>> All right, that's good. Um and then um

1:02:00we're talking about uh coming up with a

1:02:03plan uh including budget and etc. um for

1:02:07increasing um the numbers. Um,

1:02:09>> but if I may, Madam Chair, even if we

1:02:11had 10 more,

1:02:13>> right, and say if we're able to work our

1:02:16system the way we're working it, we had

1:02:1810 more that we could double up 10 units

1:02:22or five units, five roots

1:02:26where the data brings us, I think would

1:02:29be a vast improvement

1:02:32on a short term that I feel we might be

1:02:35able to tackle in a a year's time. Um,

1:02:39>> I'm looking at the numbers and I'm not

1:02:41so sure.

1:02:42>> No, I just I we got to start somewhere,

1:02:44you know, and I agree with Council

1:02:45Bergman. I think we do need to increase

1:02:47our compliment. We're a growing We're a

1:02:49growing city and

1:02:51>> this has taken men and women off the

1:02:54street

1:02:55>> where we want them, sticking them in a

1:02:57hospital as a guard

1:02:59>> where their talents can be used

1:03:01elsewhere.

1:03:02>> Oh, absolutely. I think we've all said

1:03:03that on this floor.

1:03:04>> Yeah.

1:03:05>> Numerous times. And I think it's just a

1:03:07it's not something that's happening just

1:03:08in Worester. Other police departments

1:03:10are experiencing it. Um and uh I think

1:03:13it's been it's been very difficult. But

1:03:16what bothers me is yes, we're currently

1:03:18down 75. But we're talking potential of

1:03:22how many people were in those two

1:03:23classes.

1:03:26>> The number left uh maybe 60 70.

1:03:30>> Yeah.

1:03:30>> So it's potentially could be 110 115.

1:03:34>> Yeah. No, I'm with you.

1:03:35>> So, it's I I think I got up on this

1:03:38floor and said that this was a massive

1:03:40crisis here. So, uh you know, I think

1:03:44it's we need to do something. And I I

1:03:46think uh whether

1:03:50whether it's is there any way that they

1:03:53they have to be they have to be they

1:03:55couldn't be uh a retiree or something

1:03:58like that. It has to be a full

1:04:01>> through chair of council. No, because

1:04:04If you have to arrest someone, I mean,

1:04:06>> right? Yep.

1:04:07>> People show up, try to freeze. I mean,

1:04:09it's

1:04:09>> Yeah, I get you.

1:04:10>> There's a lot to it.

1:04:11>> No, I just I was just trying to think

1:04:13outside the box.

1:04:14>> If I Is there a way to through the chair

1:04:17to work cohesively with other

1:04:18departments who may be also, you know,

1:04:21whether it's the sheriff's, other towns.

1:04:23>> You think it's a custody issue

1:04:26>> through the chair or the counselor?

1:04:28That's correct. It's

1:04:29>> once they're in our custody, that's it.

1:04:31>> We own them.

1:04:32>> We own them. All right. Anything that

1:04:33happens to them, it's on us.

1:04:34>> Okay.

1:04:35>> Yeah. So, all right. So, we'll we'll

1:04:38look for uh for report and potential uh

1:04:41solutions to this. Uh Chief, thank you

1:04:44very much. I appreciate all the hard

1:04:46work you guys are doing.

1:04:48>> Uh and I was remissed. Um No, go ahead.

1:04:51Uh I was remissed and I had a a resident

1:04:56who wanted to comment on the uh noise

1:04:59ordinance. So, please come forward.

1:05:02Hi, my name is Bruce Hoffner.

1:05:05Um, I deal with some property on Lincoln

1:05:08Street and Wayside Road. Um, I like all

1:05:12the ideas uh Mr. Rono had and uh

1:05:16obviously uh Council Bergman had some

1:05:20good ideas. Um, I I'd like to throw out

1:05:23a couple of things.

1:05:26First of all, being lied straight to our

1:05:28face. Five years we've been lied to. So,

1:05:32with that said,

1:05:34let's make it painful

1:05:37for them to keep lying.

1:05:40I'm talking about $5,000 fine.

1:05:44All right? Maybe the second time, maybe

1:05:46the first, third, I don't know. But make

1:05:50it incremental

1:05:52because this has gone on too long. I had

1:05:55a dog die because of the thumping.

1:05:58He just kept barking all night long. It

1:06:00was my guard dog.

1:06:03He thought someone was banging on the

1:06:05doors

1:06:06and I know it was because of that. I

1:06:09know that.

1:06:11So if it's incremental

1:06:15when they feel the pain,

1:06:18it's going to be something for them to

1:06:19think about.

1:06:20>> Well, I think that's I Mr. Hoffner, I do

1:06:22believe that we we said that that we do

1:06:25need to increase the fines and and I

1:06:28understand the incremental. That's what

1:06:30I think uh the commission was talking

1:06:32about as well.

1:06:33>> But I'm talking about pain

1:06:35>> 5,000.

1:06:37>> Yeah.

1:06:37>> You wake up when it gets to 5,000.

1:06:40>> Yeah. Well, I I we also asked for what

1:06:42the legal limits are for increasing the

1:06:44fine. So, we'll wait and find out about

1:06:46that and we'll have that brought forward

1:06:48to council and have it come back to the

1:06:51>> Yeah. The the other thing is is another

1:06:53person's been online waiting to speak.

1:06:57>> Okay. Uh, and there's one other

1:07:00>> there's one other thing that I just want

1:07:02to bring up.

1:07:03>> So, everybody on Pasadena Parkway

1:07:06surrounding that church has moved out

1:07:08except for one person.

1:07:11Everybody. They've all moved out.

1:07:13They've sold their houses.

1:07:16One of them, one woman had cancer. They

1:07:19didn't care about that. Another person

1:07:21had a nervous breakdown. He actually

1:07:24started threatening people with guns. We

1:07:26don't want to get to that point again.

1:07:29>> So, we do not

1:07:30>> I, you know, I didn't sleep this weekend

1:07:32because of this. Okay. Usually, I go up

1:07:34to New Hampshire, but I work this

1:07:37weekend. It was the end of the month.

1:07:39Usually in September, things get very

1:07:42busy for the inspection business. I open

1:07:45at 7 in the morning, close at 9:00. So,

1:07:48I'm way overt tired and I'm really

1:07:51aggravated.

1:07:53But, thank you. Uh, I wish you could

1:07:55address Joe Kasher online.

1:07:57>> Yep. I wasn't aware that there was

1:07:59someone online. Sorry.

1:08:01>> Thank you,

1:08:02>> Madam Chair. We would use this

1:08:03opportunity to remind folks if they do

1:08:05want to speak to please use the raise

1:08:07hand function. And again, the raise hand

1:08:09function is the bottom center of your

1:08:11screen or you dial star9 to raise your

1:08:13hand. And madam chair, we have one

1:08:15person raising their hand. uh the person

1:08:17I can identify as Phillip. Just provide

1:08:19your full city or full name, city or

1:08:23town of address and the item that you're

1:08:25speaking on. Thank you.

1:08:28>> Hi, can you hear me?

1:08:29>> Yes.

1:08:30>> Yes.

1:08:31>> My name is Joseph

1:08:34Carsha, my family property above St.

1:08:37Jonah Park Church. And um I'm a little

1:08:40bit confused. Um, it sounds to me after

1:08:43listening and waiting to speak for over

1:08:45an hour, um,

1:08:48there there's a process in place for the

1:08:50license commission to receive an

1:08:52application and a butters to be invited

1:08:55to a hearing. There's been

1:08:58um dozens of um events at this church.

1:09:03uh and not all of them have resulted in

1:09:05complaints, but I have never once

1:09:08received a invitation to a hearing for

1:09:11licenses. Um fact is I I most recently

1:09:15got invited to one because one of the

1:09:17inspectional services employees happened

1:09:19to see one of the emails because I

1:09:21started having to email half the city uh

1:09:24to get any sort of response from the

1:09:26city. Now,

1:09:28um

1:09:30I've spoken and had interactions to many

1:09:33police officers and emergency

1:09:35communications department uh employees

1:09:38and they

1:09:41none of them understand the noise

1:09:42ordinance. They don't understand the

1:09:44peritting process. Um they make up lies

1:09:47about there being permits and then there

1:09:49are none when I seek public records for

1:09:51them. They don't know how to assess

1:09:54complaints um or document violations.

1:09:58That's the issue. Um

1:10:01really hoping people get trained uh and

1:10:03given decimal meters. I'm a little bit

1:10:05confused how

1:10:08unlicensed entertainment can take place

1:10:11for, you know, years and years and

1:10:13years. They're not they're just begging

1:10:15for forgiveness instead of going through

1:10:17the process of asking for permission. I

1:10:20feel like that should be grounds to just

1:10:22shut it down at this point. Why are you

1:10:24continuing to be played?

1:10:27And just for the record, I have

1:10:30absolutely no issue with events

1:10:32happening there, uh people worship,

1:10:35worshiping, celebrating, uh gathering,

1:10:37assembling. Um I think it's healthy for

1:10:41uh people to be spiritual. It's look, I

1:10:44live hundreds of feet away from this

1:10:46property and can hear it in my house and

1:10:50I have a legal um right to peaceful

1:10:54enjoyment of my property. This there's

1:10:57no question that they are breaking the

1:10:59language in the noise ordinance. Um, I

1:11:03have uh body cam footage of officers

1:11:07agreeing like, "Yeah, we're hundreds of

1:11:09feet away from this building with the

1:11:12doors closed and we can hear it and we

1:11:14would be pissed too if we were trying to

1:11:16go to sleep."

1:11:19>> Um, so this is just Come on. I mean,

1:11:22really. So the Yeah, they go down, they

1:11:25uh take occupancy um certificates away

1:11:28and then they give it back when they go

1:11:30down to the office and beg for them.

1:11:32That's ridiculous. And so, of course,

1:11:34it's going to happen again. Um, was this

1:11:37past Saturday? Was Did they go through

1:11:39the licing licensing process for that?

1:11:42No, I doubt they did. Um, come on. This

1:11:45is just ridiculous at this point. And

1:11:48just so everyone knows, I went down into

1:11:50that church, met with the priest,

1:11:52brought my own personal DJ equipment,

1:11:55and showed them what like an appropriate

1:11:57sound system would um be like. and they

1:12:01wouldn't even bother um the neighborhood

1:12:03if they use that. They don't listen.

1:12:05They want to bring in huge powerful

1:12:08subbase. They want to bring in hundreds

1:12:10and hundreds of people and blast the

1:12:12music. That's the problem. And you know,

1:12:16I think it's we're all in agreement.

1:12:18There's no it's just unmanageable. Like

1:12:21it's the wrong person running things,

1:12:23>> right?

1:12:23>> I agree. I agree with you. And that's

1:12:25why we're we're moving forward with all

1:12:27of this. Certainly.

1:12:30How about this?

1:12:31>> You've been very patient because, you

1:12:33know, we've talked about this for

1:12:34several years, too.

1:12:36>> So, I do think that the commissioner I

1:12:38do think that the commissioner uh has um

1:12:42you know, the right uh tactic to move

1:12:45forward. Uh we asked some good

1:12:47questions. We're waiting for reports and

1:12:49uh so I think that uh let's let's get

1:12:52that uh information and we can talk

1:12:54about this uh at the next u hearing.

1:12:58>> Yeah. I I mean, in my opinion, it should

1:13:00be the next time it happens. Okay? And

1:13:03you don't need decibel meters to drive

1:13:05up Wayside Road hundreds of feet away

1:13:07and use your own two ears and hear it

1:13:10plainly audible as um defined in the

1:13:15noise uh ordinance. I mean, I could

1:13:17literally sing the baselines to you.

1:13:19That's how many times I've heard them.

1:13:21>> I'm sure.

1:13:22>> Yeah. So, I mean, maybe take away the

1:13:24occupancy uh certificate the next time

1:13:27this happens.

1:13:28>> That's

1:13:29>> and I, you know, I appreciate all of you

1:13:31for giving me the opportunity and

1:13:33listening and I especially appreciate uh

1:13:36councelor Konamu for bringing this

1:13:38forward. Um, so thank you.

1:13:40>> Thank you very much. Thank you. All

1:13:43right. So, uh,

1:13:44>> may I speak

1:13:46>> on these two items, sir?

1:13:49>> I'm sorry. on on either the noise

1:13:51ordinance or

1:13:54or the uh

1:13:57>> speak on public safety business.

1:13:59>> Uh it's not on the agenda. It it's if

1:14:02it's not either of those two things,

1:14:03it's not on the agenda, sir.

1:14:05>> Well, then I'll speak on the noise.

1:14:09>> It has to be completely regarding that

1:14:11particular ordinance.

1:14:12>> I will speak on the noise ordinance.

1:14:16May I speak?

1:14:18>> Yes, sir. your name in city.

1:14:19>> I'm Gordon Davis.

1:14:21I lived in this city almost 60 years.

1:14:26And the north and when we have a

1:14:29demonstration, the police would come and

1:14:32say, "Our loud speaker, our bullhorn,

1:14:36this is for first amendment rights is

1:14:39too loud." And I tell him, "Well, how do

1:14:42you know that?" And then he says then

1:14:45the police would say this is several

1:14:47demonstrations.

1:14:49Well, you s turn it off for a real

1:14:52rescue.

1:14:54So I'm saying that was racist. I'm also

1:14:58saying that what's happening with the

1:15:01CNA report is also racist in that the

1:15:06police chief has said the CNA report is

1:15:08not doing anything about it.

1:15:10>> I'm sorry. and that this committee which

1:15:13is supposed to keep people safe, you're

1:15:17out of water,

1:15:17>> is is harming us.

1:15:20>> Sir,

1:15:21>> what? No, you will listen to me.

1:15:24This is a public safety committee.

1:15:28The people in Whistler are being harmed

1:15:32and you're not taking it up.

1:15:45talk about it later.

1:15:46>> You heard me, you know. And that's that

1:15:51>> the uh that's the end of this uh

1:15:55subcommittee and I want to thank

1:15:57everybody for attending.

1:15:59>> Madam Chair, what did you do with item 4

1:16:01A? Would you like to file that?

1:16:03>> Yes, please. Thank you.

1:16:04>> Thank you. Motion to adjurnn.