2026-08-20 - Zoning Board of Appeals

00:05[music] All right. Good evening everyone

00:06and welcome to the Thursday, August

00:0720th, 2026, 6 PM edition of the Auburn

00:11Zoning Board of Appeals. Uh, my name is

00:12Robert Tetro. I am the chair and I'm

00:14calling this meeting to order. I just

00:15have a few administrative things that I

00:17have to get through and then we'll get

00:18started this evening. Um, so first, is

00:20anybody uh recording the meeting this

00:22evening?

00:23Okay, hearing none, seeing none. You are

00:25allowed to record. You just have to

00:26declare yourself. Um, if you have any

00:28electronic devices, if you could turn

00:30them down to either a silent or vibrate

00:31mode, please, that would be much

00:32appreciated. And if you want to speak on

00:35any of the matters this evening, if you

00:36could just sign in over here when you

00:37have a moment. Um, also, this is being

00:40recorded and it will be replayed on the

00:42Auburn YouTube channel for actv.com.

00:45Uh, you can look that up at your

00:46convenience if you want to replay the

00:47meeting this evening. Before we get

00:49started, if you all want to ra uh rise

00:51and join me in the salute to the flag.

00:59I will tell you. Sorry.

01:01>> That's right. Thanks for giving me a

01:02minute.

01:03>> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the

01:06United States of America and to the

01:08republic for which it stands, one nation

01:10under God, indivisible, with liberty and

01:13justice for all.

01:15>> Thank you. Be seated.

01:17Okay. Um, and I already mentioned this

01:19before, but we do have a busy agenda

01:21this evening. We're going to try to be

01:22um efficient and quick as we go through

01:24it and we'll be as thorough as possible.

01:26So, we have a first hearing this

01:27evening. It's 6:00 p.m. Applicant Mast

01:30Futures LLC requesting an amendment to

01:33special permit condition number three

01:35for the special permit approved on April

01:3716th, 2024 for the indoor amusement

01:40facility planned on 615 Southbridge

01:43Street, map 55, parcel 7. And this is

01:46continued from the 71626 meeting. Is the

01:50applicant present?

01:51Gentlemen, if you could just reach the

01:52uh approach the lect turn, please, and

01:54give us an overview. I'd like you to try

01:55to accomplish. Do I have a motion to

01:58open the hearing? Um

01:59>> motion open, Miss Chima, but are we

02:01open? Is this a continuation?

02:03>> Um did I don't recall if we actually

02:05closed it to tell you the truth. Did we

02:06close it?

02:07>> I don't think we opened it or

02:10>> I don't think

02:10>> Okay, so this we don't have to. This is

02:12a continuation. Thank you for that

02:13correction

02:15>> to you, sir.

02:16>> All right. Good evening. Uh my name is

02:18Tim Johnson. here on behalf of Mass

02:21Futures uh in 615 Southward Street. So,

02:24we're here to ask the board to amend the

02:26condition three that was uh on the

02:29special permit approved in June. Um

02:33currently it is only permitted to Mass

02:36Futures, which I own Mass Futures of

02:38course, but Mass Futures is going to own

02:40the property. It's not going to own the

02:43golf simulator business. So, that's

02:46that's the difference that I have right

02:48there. So my wife and my kids, they're

02:51mass futures, but the simulator business

02:53is going to be separate. So I just don't

02:55want to have liability on them for that

02:57reason. So I'm looking for be able to

03:00have a transfer and still have the

03:01special permit. Nothing else changes. Um

03:05everything that the board has given us

03:07to run for the conditions is going to

03:10stay the same. It's just really to make

03:11it transferable. It could stay with the

03:14building. We're fine with that. But um

03:17yeah, if it ever change entities or

03:18anything like that, then we'd like to be

03:20able to have that already approved and

03:22continue on.

03:23>> Okay. Um so do we have any people that

03:26want to make a public comment on this

03:28matter?

03:31>> Hearing none, seeing none, I'll go to

03:32you, vice chair.

03:33>> Mr. Chimman, before we go to the

03:35applicant, I believe um that there was

03:38some information circulated by the

03:40assistant town manager regarding the

03:43transferability of a special permit.

03:45>> Correct.

03:45>> Um and I just called it. I don't know if

03:47you have that in your packet

03:48>> um by any chance, but I wonder if we

03:50could review and reflect on that first.

03:53>> Certainly. So, what we have here is um

03:57again from the assistant town manager,

03:58members of the ZBA based on questions we

04:00have received from the board members and

04:01the applicants. I've had a number of

04:03discussions with the town planner, Rose

04:04Russell, regarding the transfer of the

04:06special permit. So, I want to share a

04:08summary of thoughts ahead of Thursday's

04:09meeting. According to Mass General Law,

04:11Chapter 4 A9 provides, special permits

04:14may be issued only for uses which are in

04:17harmony with the general purpose intent

04:18of the ordinance of the bylaw and shall

04:20be subject to general or specific

04:22provisions set forth therein. As such,

04:24permits may also impose conditions,

04:26safeguards, and limitations on time or

04:28use. any uh the language specifically

04:31uses the term may as opposed to shall

04:33here which implies it is optional and

04:35not required. Also mass general law uh

04:39chapter 40 A10 variances including any

04:41conditions safeguards or limitations

04:43based upon the continued ownership or

04:45land of structures which may have a

04:46variance pertains to the applicant

04:48petitioner owner. So the board cannot

04:50provide any assurances that a special

04:52permit amendment to change an operator

04:54in the future would be approved. We

04:56would urge the board to consider the

04:57risk an applicant developer is taking on

04:59the construct of the golf facility or

05:01indoor amusement recreation with the

05:03perpetual condition that the permission

05:05operate is solely to tied to the current

05:07applicant and the future financial

05:09implications of such. Regardless, any

05:11substantial change in the use or

05:13configuration of the facility would

05:15already require an amendment to the

05:16existing permit at the building

05:18inspector's discretion. Is the board

05:20comfortable with this safeguard? I

05:21believe that we are. Another option to

05:24consider is to add a condition such as

05:25this approval is for an indoor golf

05:27facility at 615 Southwest Street only

05:30and any future change that the specific

05:33use shall comply with the zoning

05:34regulations in place at that time. This

05:36avoids ownership issue. Further, we will

05:39note the board did not require any

05:40conditions related to hours of operation

05:42or operational aspects of the business

05:44which would be appropriate if we had

05:46specific concerns. Um, if it did not

05:49have operational concerns, especially

05:51with the hours until midnight some days,

05:54um, what does making the special permit

05:55non-transfer actually accomplished?

05:57Accordingly, if the board has specific

05:58operational concerns like hours or

06:00outdoor dining, which is not proposed,

06:03uh, that could change with the different

06:04different operator. Staff would suggest

06:06that you condition it upon the

06:08operational concerns rather than the

06:09operator itself. Um, so that is the the

06:12guide that we've received um, so far

06:15from the town side. So, are you

06:17satisfied with that reading? I

06:18>> I am, Mr. Chairman. And so, I I just for

06:20the applicants opportunity. So, I I'm

06:24not opposed to what you're proposing

06:26tonight. I think it's it's a division of

06:28ownership um that you want to make

06:30clear. Um but what what's been stated as

06:33far as uh the guidelines of the special

06:35permit? Do you have any questions um

06:37with regard to that guidance?

06:40>> I don't believe so. I mean, I think as

06:42long as it's transferable, I understand

06:43that if it was going to change use or

06:45anything in any sort of, you know,

06:46variation from what's approved, then

06:48yeah, obviously I would agree with

06:50having to come back for a special

06:51permit. But if we could just have it if

06:54it's transferable that for the use that

06:56it's permitted as, great.

06:58>> Okay. Great. And I just want to give you

06:59that opportunity so that you could be

07:00heard on that. Um because I don't I

07:03don't see that this obstructs the

07:04transferability of the special permit

07:06based on what we've been provided.

07:08>> I'll reserve, Mr. But I don't have

07:09anything additional for the afternoon.

07:10>> Okay, Mr. Cussy.

07:11>> No questions.

07:12>> I'm good.

07:13>> Bush,

07:14>> Mr. Damiac.

07:15>> So, I'm going to chalk this up to being

07:17a newbie. [laughter] Although, it's no

07:20excuse. Um, you know, typically you

07:22should read something before you sign

07:23it. So, I was a little surprised when I

07:25signed this to find out that there were

07:27in fact special conditions because I

07:28didn't know we had put any on here. But,

07:31um, I don't have any issue with this one

07:33in particular. But did you look at

07:35special condition number four that talks

07:37about hours?

07:39>> So I did and I heard that hours were not

07:41limited.

07:42>> Well, it says hours of operation 8:30

07:45a.m. to 7:30 p.m. Monday through

07:47Saturday and then and then it says and

07:49limited to one client at a time by

07:52appointment only.

07:53>> So that was an error that we actually

07:55corrected. Um I think it was the

07:57following month. It was kind of an

07:58overlap um between two different

08:00hearings and I think that was uh scribe

08:04scribed the error.

08:05>> Yeah, scribes error.

08:06>> Yeah, scribner error.

08:07>> Okay. Yeah, I asked for a copy of it.

08:09So, this was the latest copy that I was

08:10given.

08:10>> Understood. No, and that's actually I'm

08:12glad you brought that up because that

08:13was a correction that we had already

08:14made.

08:15>> But yeah, I didn't I did we talk about

08:17conditions last like when we approved

08:18this, I didn't remember us putting

08:19anything.

08:20>> No, we actually didn't concern our

08:21>> So that's why I was a little surprised

08:22that something like is this something

08:23that we just typically put on the

08:25conditions but limit it? through the

08:27chair. I think as a board we we

08:30typically do condition our special

08:33permits to be non-transferable. As a

08:35board for years we've done that. Um

08:39it typically has been more of a hot

08:41topic item when it is an in-law

08:43apartment or when it's someone coming

08:45which is majority of what we see for for

08:47SP requests.

08:49In that realm, I think we always felt

08:51comfortable limiting it on purpose so

08:53that if the ownership changed, it would

08:55have to. I think we have sort of become

08:56known as a board that always puts that

08:58condition. So, we say our standard

09:00conditions, we add that. Um, I am the

09:03one who reached out to the town manager

09:05to ask for some guidance on this. Um,

09:08because I think in this instance, it

09:10obviously does not make sense. We can't

09:11let them build this whole thing and then

09:13say, "Oh, but you're stuck with it now."

09:15>> Right. Right. Um, but I think as a board

09:18we have very often said our special

09:21permits. We don't want we did not want

09:23people coming and having in-laws and

09:25apartments and then being able to sell

09:26them. Obviously with the ADU law that is

09:28no longer a thing. So we cannot

09:31>> Sorry, Mr. Marin. We cannot condition

09:33that any longer. Um, but I think in

09:36involved in our standing conditions, we

09:38typically do. Okay. It's something we'll

09:41have to think about in the future

09:42because I think we just did it as

09:44standard and then

09:45>> once the applicant actually went through

09:46it and realized it, they asked us to

09:49change it. But yes, as a newbie, we

09:51typically do that.

09:55>> And again, shame on me for not reading

09:56it, [laughter] but I signed it because I

09:58would have seen the script.

09:59>> If I can just further

10:00>> they attach that page of like special

10:02conditions.

10:03>> Oh, so that's why I didn't see.

10:04>> Yes.

10:04>> Yeah. I mean, as Mr. said, I mean,

10:06there's going to be a considerable

10:07buildout in a in a major investment in

10:09this. And so, if there were a change of

10:11ownership, um, I would I would not be in

10:13favor of limiting the transferability of

10:15it. I'd like a different operator to

10:17have an opportunity to come in and take

10:19on that infrastructure so that they

10:21don't have to do a complete

10:22deconstruction of it. I think it makes

10:24sense for this business.

10:27>> Um, so my question is, are you so your

10:29intent is to sublet it? Is that really

10:31what you're going to do? You're going to

10:32you're going to lease it out to the

10:33operator of the uh screens? I will also

10:35be the operator of it just to be a

10:37different holding company.

10:39>> Oh, okay. I understand that. All right.

10:40Just for the record, I want to make sure

10:42>> we are looking for like in the future.

10:43So, for instance, everybody would love

10:45to retire someday. So, if I wanted to

10:47retire, say, you know, 15 years down the

10:50road and that business is worth

10:51something and it's still operating just

10:53as well. It would I don't understand why

10:56a purchaser would have to come back to

10:59get another special permit for a

11:02business that is already operating and

11:04remains the same. I'm just trying to get

11:06clarity on I just I just if it's not

11:10changing use I just feel like it's a a

11:12crazy thing to do.

11:14>> Sure. And that's understandable. But

11:15again, I think what Miss Roach uh

11:17pointed out so well was that if we have

11:19a business with a special permit in

11:21town, um special permits traditionally

11:25they expire with the current um receiver

11:28of the special permit. So such as

11:29yourself, if you were to transfer that

11:31building to new ownership, they would

11:32come before us and we would go over

11:34basically it's so we can go over the

11:36conditions, make sure they understand it

11:38and that they they accept it. At least

11:40that's how I view it. There's no other

11:41way to do that versus making them come

11:44for a special permit. Now, again, this

11:46is not in my future, but I have sold a

11:48business before. And, you know, I've

11:50never I've never seen it I've only seen

11:52it in Auburn, you know, I've never seen

11:54it in Worcester or anything like that.

11:56So, I'm I'm just trying to make it

11:58streamlined someday, you know,

12:01>> because if the person was to come in and

12:04go for the special permit and get denied

12:06for some weird reason, this board

12:08changes, you know, people's thoughts in

12:10this town change, you know, I just don't

12:12understand how, you know, I could lose

12:15out on the opportunity

12:18and now I just have a building that I'm

12:20no, you know, I'm not able to run or I'm

12:23older or whatever, you know.

12:26Yeah. So, if we remove the special

12:28condition, he can sell it to whoever he

12:30wants. Or again, I think what he's

12:32saying is he's not going to sell it. He

12:34wants a different LLC to operate it with

12:36different names. And he cannot do that

12:38unless we allow unless we remove that

12:41condition.

12:41>> Even if he is still the owner of the

12:43LLC,

12:44>> he cannot transfer the permit to the new

12:46LLC without us removing the condition.

12:49Mhm.

12:49>> And then yes, in 15 years if he sells it

12:52to Joe Mo, then Josh Mo will not have to

12:56come and get a special permit unless he

12:58is changing the use. If Josh Mo wants to

13:00add a bowling alley and outdoor dining,

13:03we will see Josh Mo back here.

13:05>> Yes.

13:06>> Right. That was my I can appreciate

13:08that.

13:08>> Yeah.

13:09>> So, I noticed that we've had quite a few

13:11more people walk in the room. Is anybody

13:13here would like to comment on the

13:14particular uh hearing that we're working

13:16on now? This is our first one for this

13:17evening. It's the Mast Futures LLC uh

13:20requesting a special permit at 615

13:22Southbridge Street. And if anybody wants

13:25to comment on any of the other um

13:27hearings that we have this evening,

13:29there's a sign-in sheet here if you want

13:30to pass that around.

13:34>> Okay. So, do we have any concerns or

13:36questions here?

13:38>> No.

13:39>> Okay.

13:40>> No, it's true.

13:41>> Okay. On this side, and just for the

13:43record, uh Mr. Shay and Mr. Damiac are

13:45our alternates. So it'll just be the

13:46standard five members voting this

13:47evening just so you're all aware and

13:49that will that will apply to every

13:51hearing. Um so do I have a motion or do

13:54I have a motion to close the public

13:55portion of the hearing?

13:56>> Motion to close.

13:58>> Do I have a second?

13:59>> All in favor?

14:00>> Any opposed? Hearing none seeing none.

14:02So, do I have a motion on the 6pm

14:04applicant Mass Futures LLC requesting an

14:06amendment to special permit number

14:07condition 3 for the special permit

14:09approved on April 16th, 2024 for the

14:11indoor amusement facility planned on 615

14:13Sulford Street, Map 55, Parcel 7,

14:16continued from 71626.

14:19>> Sure. I'll make a motion to approve

14:24I'll make a motion to approve the

14:27applicant's request to amend the special

14:30permit by removing condition number

14:34three from the decision that was

14:37approved on April 16th 2024

14:41amusement facility planned at 615 South

14:44Bridge Street map 55 par 7.

14:46>> Well done.

14:47>> Uh do I have a second on that? Second is

14:49stated.

14:50>> Okay. Uh all in favor.

14:52>> Any opposed?

14:54>> Hearing none seeing then none. All set,

14:55sir. Good luck.

14:56>> Appreciate you. Thank you very much.

14:57>> We're looking forward to having that

14:58business hopefully sometime in town.

15:01>> Thank you.

15:01>> All right. Do I have a motion to close

15:03the 6 p.m. hearing?

15:04>> Motion to close, Mr. Chairman.

15:06>> Do I have a second?

15:07>> Second.

15:07>> All in favor?

15:08>> Okay. So, that hearing is officially

15:10closed now. We've we've completed it.

15:12Um, one of the other things if I could

15:14ask for folks, um, is when it's fine to

15:18come up here and sign up while we're in

15:19between, but as you're leaving this

15:21evening, I know you're probably not

15:22aware of this, but because of that open

15:24wall, if you communicate out in the

15:26hallway, it becomes a speaker and it

15:27really kind of drowns us out. So, if you

15:29have any communication after the hearing

15:31and you're leaving, if you get through

15:33the double doors on the stairway before

15:35you start talking, that would really be

15:36helpful to us. So, thank you.

15:40Okay. So, the next one, we have a 6:05

15:42p.m. applicant Jared and Elizabeth Webb

15:45for an administrative appeal under

15:46section 3.2.5.0

15:49of the Auburn zoning bylaw to appeal the

15:51cease and desist order for sniff spot at

15:543 Ashworth Street, map 52, parcel 15.

15:57Presently on the premises is a single

15:59family dwelling. The subject property is

16:00located at residential RR zoning

16:03district. Do I have a motion to open the

16:04hearing?

16:05>> Mr. Chairman, motion to open the

16:06hearing.

16:06>> Do I have a second?

16:07>> I'll second.

16:07>> All in favor?

16:08>> I. Any opposed? Hearing none. Seeing

16:11none. Okay. So, this is for the 605 and

16:15uh I take it you're the applicants,

16:17correct? Okay. And I understand you

16:19might be representing them. Sir,

16:20>> Mr. Chairman, Attorney Michael Shivik

16:22for the webs here um on the appeal.

16:24>> Okay. If you'd like to just go ahead and

16:25give us your presentation, please, sir.

16:27>> Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

16:28Chairman, Mr. Vice Chairman, esteemed

16:30board members and town staff. Thank you

16:32for having us here tonight. We

16:33appreciate your consideration of this

16:34appeal of the building inspector's uh

16:37cease and desist order uh telling my

16:39clients that they should no longer

16:40operate what's called a sniff spot. Um

16:42I've reviewed the videotapes from the

16:44last meetings. I'm aware that the

16:46individuals on the board and the town

16:47staff are aware of the content of the um

16:50what a sniff spot is and what the appeal

16:52is about. Uh my clients

16:55their their argument is relatively

16:58straightforward. It's whether section

17:003.2.5

17:02uh.0 zero applies to a snip spot or

17:04whether it's limited to a retail

17:05operation. My clients would profer that

17:07there is no retail operation happening

17:10there. Um what they essentially do is

17:12run uh amounts to an Airbnb for dogs on

17:16a very limited basis, not an overnight

17:18thing, a couple hours a day. Mhm.

17:20>> The court the the court the board is

17:22probably aware that um there's a this is

17:26a residential RZ zoned um section of the

17:29town and there is another kennel

17:32operating uh within about a half mile of

17:36my client's property Collinssworth on 84

17:39West Street and they run a fine

17:41operation and no one's calling that into

17:42question. However, it's a much more

17:44extensive operation within the same

17:46zoning district. Um there's boarding,

17:49there's training, there's grooming going

17:50on there. And there's a very seems to be

17:52a substantial size structure on the

17:54property. Um even though it does, you

17:56know, in maybe in the mind get a little

17:59uh muddled in with the Republic uh

18:03facility and the water district facility

18:04down there, it is still in the

18:06residential R and then that side of West

18:08Street over to Hard Scrabble Road

18:09becomes uh an industrial zone. So

18:12there's still residents there. I'm sure

18:14you're aware there's there's railroad

18:15tracks going through that section of

18:16town. The Mass Pike is going through

18:18that section of town. Um Topograph,

18:20you're [snorts] aware of Topograph. You

18:22guys approved that. Excellent uh

18:23facility. They're building I think a at

18:26least a 100 units up um right behind my

18:29client's house there. Um and then what

18:31we could call the Cuminsville Road West

18:34Street turnpike that goes through there,

18:35which is um a substantial amount of

18:37traffic that that flows through there on

18:38a daily basis. So my clients

18:43in [clears throat] first again believe

18:44that it's not a retail operation. So it

18:45shouldn't be governed by the order of

18:47the uh building inspector who we respect

18:49his authority and probably attempts to

18:51regulate this maybe as a commercial

18:53situation. Um and we don't question the

18:56policy behind that. But when we look at

18:58the fact that there's already been

19:00approved since the 80s a kennel on a

19:02much grander scale within I'd say a half

19:05a mile of their property in the same

19:07zone in the same area of town. um we

19:10don't see a ton of difference and I'm

19:12not accusing it of being like a reverse

19:13spot zoning issue because it doesn't

19:16quite fall under that prenumbra but what

19:18it does is give us uh a little bit of of

19:21of leg room to stretch out and say that

19:23this is probably a permissible use and

19:25if we look at

19:28section 3.2.26 2.6. Uh there's a, you

19:31know, ban on on on lodging in the in in

19:34those districts, but there does seem to

19:36be an exception for four overnight

19:38guests that are paying guests, which

19:40resonates in a way that says that it's

19:42like an Airbnb exception for for

19:44residential homes in that area. because

19:46it's on a limited basis because of the

19:48the nature of the

19:52um neighborhood itself and the again the

19:56railroad the mass pike the the pseudo

19:59mass pike that runs through there they

20:00had the pre-existing kennel um and I

20:03believe there's a shooting range over

20:04there with the with the ar sportsman

20:05club uh the addition of a few dogs on an

20:08hourly basis we don't think has a

20:10substantial impact on traffic or on the

20:12character of the neighborhood or on

20:13noise in the neighborhood Um, so we'd

20:17ask the board to um overturn that order.

20:20Not in a not in a way that's, you know,

20:22not trying to be accusatory or anything,

20:23but we do think that

20:26it should be a permissible use. And that

20:27I think we've noted at prior hearings

20:30that if there isn't something that's

20:32exactly on point to regulate the uh use

20:36or non-use, then it it becomes a

20:38potential due process issue. and the

20:40only way to make zoning laws is to go

20:43through the the process in 4A and go

20:45through town meeting and have a vote.

20:47So, we'd ask you to um allow my clients

20:51to continue to operate this pending some

20:53type of new legislation. Um and with

20:55that, I'll turn it over to the board,

20:56Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

20:57>> Thank you. Do we have any of Butters

20:59that want to comment on this particular

21:00hearing? Okay. Uh if you haven't signed

21:03in already, if you could do so, please,

21:04and then come up one at a time.

21:08And also for the record, I just wanted

21:10to point out that I received three um

21:13emails regarding this from Robert

21:15Lammansky,

21:17um Thomas Soachinsky, and Bryce and Lara

21:21Keeler. And we have um one against and

21:25two for in favor of this.

21:28>> Go ahead, sir.

21:29>> Good evening, Mr. Chairman, board. I

21:31would like to uh ask everybody if they

21:33remember the j the jingle bells with the

21:35dogs barking because that's what it

21:37sounds like when the bark spot is

21:38operating. Well, would you like me to

21:40repeat that? [laughter]

21:42I'd love to.

21:45Actually, if I could teach the dogs to

21:46do that, it'd be quite amazing. You

21:47know, I wouldn't mind. But anyways, I

21:49think what we're looking at, I'd like to

21:50refer the board to section 3.2.5.6

21:54of the Auburn zoning bylaws for an

21:56outdoor amusement or recreation

21:59facility.

22:01which is open to the which is defined in

22:04the bylaws as outdoor facilities open to

22:07the public for a fee or admission charge

22:09such as mini golf boat launch equestrian

22:11center but does not include temporary

22:14structures and I think what we have here

22:16is an outdoor amusement center and if

22:20you look at the zoning bylaws on page

22:23nine under section 3.2.5 2.5.5

22:28outdoor amusement or recreation facility

22:30is not allowed in zoning district RR.

22:35Plain and simple. This should have never

22:36been allowed to happen in the first

22:38place because it's it's an outdoor

22:40entertainment facility and it's just not

22:43allowed in the Auburn zoning bylaws.

22:46>> Okay. Uh does anybody else want to

22:48comment?

22:49>> I agree.

22:50>> I'm sorry.

22:51>> I agree.

22:52>> I'm Well, you'd have to come up. I I

22:54apologize, but you have to come up and

22:55we have to be able to hear you in the

22:56microphone. Ma'am,

22:59if you give us your name and address and

23:01your comment, please.

23:05>> Yes, please.

23:16>> We have to get you on record. for the

23:18folks at home.

23:19>> So,

23:21my name is Laura Keeler and I live at

23:23526 Rodale Street and we can hear the

23:26dogs barking during the day all the time

23:30and it's we live in a residential

23:33neighborhood. That's the way it was when

23:35we built our house. It's on a street

23:39with other houses. There are houses on

23:42either side of Ashworth Street. It's not

23:44like the kennel, Collinssworth kennel

23:48that's down by, like you said, the trash

23:51place

23:53right under the Mass Pike, which I think

23:56is why they're allowed to build it

23:57there. And I just, as Bryce said,

24:04it's a they're operating a recreation

24:08there. And even when the sportsman's

24:11club does its Halloween thing every

24:15year, they have to notice that out for

24:17permission, for the music, for the

24:19entertainment.

24:22That's not a given. So, I oppose it.

24:25>> Okay. Thank you. Anyone else?

24:28>> Through the chair. Could I just ask her

24:29a question?

24:30>> Oh, you can. Oh, sorry. Ma'am, can you

24:31come back to the microphone for one

24:32second? We have a member that would like

24:33to give you ask you a question.

24:35>> I just missed your address. I'm sorry.

24:36Could you just tell me what your address

24:38is? 526 Rodale.

24:41>> 26 Rodale. Okay. Thank you.

24:47>> Yes, sir.

24:48>> Hi. Uh, Robert Lammansky. I'm at 537

24:50Rashdale Street. I believe I'm the

24:53closest of Butter to Three Ashworth here

24:55today. And honestly, if you told me they

24:57had more than one dog there,

25:00it if you didn't tell me, I would not

25:02have known. Um, the noise. Um, we have a

25:0613lb dog ourselves. makes a lot more

25:08noise than that. And I'm not saying that

25:09you should take our dog away, but there

25:11really is no impact. There's no traffic

25:13impact. At the most, there's four cars

25:15there um on a weekend day. Um as far as

25:20the noise on 526, I believe that house

25:22was built well after um this house was

25:25there established. So perhaps they

25:27shouldn't have cut down all the trees

25:29and maybe there would be uh some noise

25:32dampening there and they wouldn't have

25:34um experiencing the noise that they say

25:36they have. Like you said, Century

25:38Sportsman's Club, not only do they have

25:40the Halloween um outings there, the hay

25:44rides, but every weekend they've got

25:47something going on. So if there's any

25:48noise impact, it would be much greater

25:50from the Century Sportsman's Club than

25:52it would be from Three Ashworth. It's

25:55simply just it's a non-topic. I I

25:57believe they were granted act uh

25:59permission to hold held the business and

26:00I don't think they've done anything to

26:02uh have that opportunity relinquished.

26:05Um it's not often you find somebody with

26:07a passion that they can call their

26:09business. So I wouldn't want to take

26:11that away from them. Um

26:13a dog barking

26:16I just don't see it. We are directly

26:18across the street from them. Uh my

26:20mother and I I mean she was visibly

26:21upset to hear that somebody might be

26:23trying to bully them. As far as they're

26:24trying to shut down and take their

26:26livelihood away, I just don't think it

26:28board should take that livelihood away.

26:30There's been absolutely no negative

26:32impact on our lives and I don't believe

26:35there's been a negative impact on other

26:36people's lives.

26:38That's all.

26:40>> Thank you. Anyone else?

26:43>> Yes, sir. Again,

26:53[clears throat] Bryce Keeler, 526

26:55Rosdale Street. I'd like to thank Mr.

26:56Lammansky and his uh expertise in

26:58forestry. And I would like to refer to

27:01council with his uh when he was talking

27:03about the uh Collinswood kennel, the

27:05topography because I just wanted to

27:07remind the board that my front yard

27:10looks down on their backyard. So with

27:13the fence, the stockade fence all the

27:14way around it, it acts like a echo

27:16chamber. So it's like great woods. So

27:17you were talking about how people talk

27:20outside here and you get the noise

27:22bouncing over. I think that's what we

27:23have from the bark spot at three

27:26Ashworth Drive.

27:28>> Thank you.

27:30>> Um if the applicants would like to

27:33approach the lect turn again, I can turn

27:34it over to the board and we can have

27:35some discussion

27:37>> for you, Mr. Vice Chair.

27:43Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

27:45>> Good evening, Mr. Mayor.

27:47>> So,

27:49I did hear your brief. I just want to be

27:52clear. What use um are you indicating

27:56that this would be appropriate under? I

27:58know you mentioned and used some words

28:00about stretching it and fitting it, but

28:04what use particularly were you

28:06recommending that we consider for this

28:09activity? It's less about what you

28:11should consider it to be and what you

28:13consider it not to be. And I think I

28:14what I referenced was the lodging

28:16section that I that I cited. Um and the

28:18exception

28:18>> what section? I'm sorry, sir.

28:20>> Sure. It's uh 3.2.2.6.

28:22I believe it's a lodging section.

28:23>> Okay.

28:24>> Where there's a a prohibition on any

28:25type of lodging except seems to be an

28:27exception for overnight guests for of

28:29four or more that are paying, which

28:31seems to be an Airbnb exception. Okay.

28:33>> For lack of a better term.

28:34>> Okay. So, you're comparing that as an

28:36exception, not a plugandplay for this.

28:39we're talking about um

28:39>> cuz you're you're kind of losing me on

28:41why we're talking about an Airbnb to fit

28:43this business.

28:44>> It's it's it's from a policy standpoint.

28:45We're saying it's it's it's essentially

28:47the same thing but on a much smaller

28:48scale. Okay.

28:49>> And when you consider the use of the

28:51Collinssworth kennel, I know that there

28:52may be a topographic issue. Topograph

28:54aside, um that there happens to be a

28:57much more extensive use within the same

28:59district within a half a mile. And

29:00there's, you know, the gun range is

29:01there. There's a large construction

29:03entity going on there. So,

29:05>> yeah. No, I appreciate and I won't I

29:06won't ask you to repeat. I mean, you you

29:08threw a lot of that at at the argument,

29:11>> and I I get it. I I I well understand

29:13the saturation of the area.

29:14>> Thank you.

29:15>> Thank you, sir. Mr. Chairman, I'm going

29:16to reserve, please.

29:17>> Thank you, Mr. Cassie.

29:18>> I'll reserve. I want to hear the Okay.

29:20>> Other members,

29:21>> Mr. Bush.

29:23>> Um,

29:25I don't have any specific questions at

29:27this point. I'll reserve.

29:30>> Mr. Diac.

29:31>> Yeah, I guess just going back to sort of

29:33what the vice chair was saying. I'm just

29:35curious if you had to apply for a

29:37special permit or variance, what zoning

29:40bylaw do you think you would would you

29:42specifically apply under that section or

29:45what section do you think?

29:46>> I don't think it's amusement, that's for

29:47sure. I think amusement is more like um

29:50maybe like a mil amusement park from

29:51from from my gone days or a batting

29:54cages. This is a use of my client's own

29:56property um having dogs over during the

29:58daytime. The hours are limited from 10

30:00to 4, so it's not even an overnight

30:02thing. So, I I wouldn't even consider it

30:04a lodging issue. I would argue that

30:06there's actually nothing covering this

30:09um in the bylaw and that there there

30:11could be attempts to stretch the bylaw

30:12to try to make it cover that, but we we

30:15think it's actually not covered and that

30:16the the board may need to um work to

30:19promulgate actual um bylaws that cover

30:22this. Otherwise, you know, I think the

30:25jurisdiction is limited with all due

30:26respect.

30:27>> So, you're saying a special permanent

30:28variance at this point isn't needed for

30:30this. I mean, you could you could apply

30:32for a variance if that's what we Tonight

30:33we're here on a uh

30:34>> No, no, no. I understand. I'm just

30:35trying to figure out like which section

30:36of the bylaw you think you're saying?

30:39>> No, it's a great question. It's a great

30:40question. However,

30:41>> right now there isn't one.

30:42>> That's my That's what it appears to be.

30:44I mean, I I'm not perfect. I could be

30:46wrong, but I that's

30:47>> I couldn't find it's not a funeral home.

30:49It's not a lodging. It's not a amusement

30:50park. Um but with everything else that's

30:52going on in there, it doesn't seem to be

30:54the most disruptive thing that could

30:55possibly be happening. And you've heard

30:57testimony from one of the neighbors

30:58saying that this there's absolutely no

31:00impact. whatsoever.

31:01>> Okay. Thank you.

31:02>> I I I apologize if I I'm not trying to

31:04dance around your question, but I do

31:05appreciate

31:06>> I'm not trying to do a gotcha.

31:08>> I just want to again reiterate that

31:09>> that's your opinion on the bylaw

31:10[laughter]

31:11>> that it operates from 10 to 4 and

31:13there's no nighttime issue. So if people

31:15want to come home and like drink their

31:16iced tea or whatever that nobody is

31:18going to be disrupted by that.

31:19>> Thanks. No further questions.

31:21>> Mr. Shay,

31:25>> I don't know. Uh,

31:28this subject when it came up the last

31:30time, we went round and round and round

31:32and round. And

31:36how many dogs did you have before you

31:39asked us for the kennel permit?

31:44>> Are you asking about the when we applied

31:46for our kennel license?

31:47>> Yes. When you applied for the kennel

31:48permit, how many dogs did you have?

31:50>> That's okay.

31:51>> When we applied for the kennel license,

31:53we had five dogs. And you wanted you

31:56wanted the kennel license to add one

31:58more.

31:58>> No, it was because I had three dogs. I

32:01had a litter. I kept two puppies. When

32:04the puppies were of age to be counted as

32:06dogs, we applied for the kennel license.

32:12And

32:14if you remember, I spoke on this and I

32:16said,

32:18I can see what's going to happen is

32:22if you're given the kennel license

32:25and you're saying that there will be no

32:28more dogs added,

32:31but I brought up the fact of

32:35well, you know, it's always that

32:37possibility that a relative or a friend

32:39is going to say, geez, I'm going away

32:41for the weekend. Could you take care of

32:42my dog?

32:44And

32:46you adamantly said, "No, that won't

32:48happen."

32:49>> No, I didn't.

32:50>> Now, all of a sudden,

32:53we're adding a

32:55a bark and sniff spot here. I just And

32:59to go a little further, you're bringing

33:02up a kennel that's down the road. Okay.

33:05Mrs. Collins has been operating that

33:08kennel for a good number of years. Okay.

33:12And prior to her being there, that was a

33:15business owned area because the

33:17gentleman that had that property

33:19beforehand

33:21owned a septic uh pumping business.

33:26Um

33:27I feel that if you're going to bring up

33:30Mrs. Collins's business down below that

33:33she should be here to defend herself.

33:36>> Um I'm a personal friend of Terry

33:38Collins. Um we've spoken of it. If I had

33:40known that she um

33:42>> I could have requested that she be here,

33:43but I think we're mixing

33:46>> dealing with what happened the last

33:48time. U

33:51be glad that I'm not a voting member

33:53because I would vote this down.

33:55>> Okay,

33:57>> Roach.

34:00So

34:03I with respect again to everyone else on

34:07the board, the only question we are

34:10talking about tonight is

34:13does the cease and desist order make

34:16sense under 3.2.5.0

34:20end of sentence. That is the question we

34:22are answering. We are not answering

34:24anything else they have done before us.

34:26We are not even answering

34:28whether or not we like the sniff spot.

34:30That doesn't matter. What matters is

34:33does the sniff spot qualify for the

34:36cease and desist under 3.2.5.0.

34:41That's it. That's our authority. That is

34:43the question. We've got four other

34:45hearings behind this. It's let's

34:49I think we move on.

34:51>> Um and I agree. And so um

34:56and just to go into what 3.5

35:00>> excuse me

35:01>> oh you have it. Thank you. 3.2.5.0. So

35:03this is under retail store and sales an

35:05establishment engaged in displaying and

35:07selling goods merchandise within a

35:09building to the general public or

35:11business establishment which goods or

35:13merchandise are not intended for resale

35:15except that a garden center florist

35:17commercial greenhouse may have open air

35:19display or horicultural products. So the

35:21real question is, is the cease and

35:24desist order um accurately portrayed

35:26under 3250?

35:28And I would just like to remind also

35:30everyone here, I think the conversation

35:32was, even though again we're applying to

35:34this, the conversation was whether or

35:36not they had a the opportunity to

35:38operate a homebased business with the

35:40sniff spot. It wasn't that the sniff

35:42spot was operating, it was whether or

35:44not they needed a permit for a homebased

35:46business. So I think there might have

35:48been some confusion along the pathway as

35:50to what the

35:52um method or steps of clarifying this

35:56could have been. So but I would agree

35:58with Miss Roach is if this really does

36:01apply under 3250.

36:04Um

36:06so I think if we stick to that we can

36:12wrap up this discussion pretty quickly.

36:14I don't think it applies to 3250, at

36:15least in my mind, but we can have that

36:17discussion after we close the public

36:19hearing.

36:19>> Very good.

36:20>> Um,

36:21>> before we close,

36:21>> you want to look

36:22>> Yeah, I do. I actually want to have the

36:24town side communicate as well.

36:25>> It would need a variance, right? I mean,

36:27if you were going to try to

36:29>> Well, under RR, we can have a small

36:31business, I believe. Correct. Is that

36:32RR?

36:33>> We can't.

36:34>> Oh, we cannot. Okay, never mind.

36:36>> And that's why they went this

36:39>> 3.2.5.0

36:40is actually a typo. The zero is not

36:42supposed to be on there. It was the main

36:45heading under the

36:48uh business uses because there are no

36:50business uses

36:52uh allowed uh in the our art district.

36:57And the one that fits that most closely,

37:00of course, this is a little different

37:02than the

37:04other version, but it's the same thing,

37:05the outdoor music park or recreational

37:08facility.

37:09And where it crosses the line is the

37:11same place we cross the line on any

37:13business like this is are they doing

37:17this for a fee. We went through this

37:19down on I think was uh

37:23clear here with the tractor repair

37:26gentleman. I mean if he's working those

37:28for his friends and it's not a problem.

37:30As soon as he did work for the town we

37:32were able to track that they he was paid

37:34a check for his services that crossed

37:37the line. if you're getting a fee for

37:40it, you're not allowed in that district

37:42to do that. And that's what I cited them

37:46on for that. And that was a typo. I have

37:49typed up a new one. If if I need to send

37:51it out, I will. Um uh but that is the

37:55crut of how I look at them. I believe

37:58we've been uh consistent with that.

38:00That's the way Caleb did it. Adam and I

38:02talked. That's the way anytime we viewed

38:04these. when we tie the fact they're

38:06doing this and they're charging money

38:10from the public that is a retail

38:12business that's not allowed in that

38:13district

38:14>> plain and simple

38:17and that's just the way it's issued.

38:23>> Yes,

38:23>> if I may. Um, and I I I greatly

38:26appreciate Miss Roach and you um

38:28narrowing this discussion.

38:30>> Um, and um, and I will hold to my

38:33commitment to behave this evening, but

38:35um, um, I I've got one I think we can we

38:37can be tight on this. I've got one

38:39follow-up question for the applicant.

38:40Um, just to get it on the record because

38:42I think I know the answer to this

38:44because it's part of the discussion and

38:46Mr. Allard. Um, so this sniff spot,

38:50that's what we call this, right?

38:52>> That's what we're referring it to it.

38:53Uh, okay. in terms of this tonight. No.

38:55Yeah. Good. No. Creative, right? I mean,

38:58any any if you can create a different

38:59business.

39:00>> This is a thing. This is a thing.

39:00>> I'm a fan. But um uh but uh this snip

39:04spot. So, this is a commercial

39:06enterprise, correct? They they collect

39:07money for this business from people that

39:10are not friends or family. Um and they

39:13collect money for a threeear service. Is

39:14that correct?

39:15>> The same as the exception to the lodging

39:17issue where there's allowed to be four

39:19overnight guests that are paying guests.

39:21We think it falls into that same policy

39:23exception because it's not on even that

39:25big of a scale and when and no one has

39:27attacked anybody's else's business. In

39:29fact, we've said nothing but good things

39:30about other people uh tonight that

39:33there's another business that's doing

39:34the exact same thing on a much grander

39:36scale a half a mile away within the same

39:39district. So, with respect to Mr. Allard

39:42and his typo, this is the first that

39:44we've heard about a typo uh since this

39:45was issued on July, I believe July 20th,

39:48which was almost a month ago. So, it's a

39:50convenient argument and we respect the

39:52town. Um, but we also feel that

39:54attempting to stretch one thing into

39:55another isn't appropriate either.

39:57>> So, so it posed my question in such a

40:01way that I was hoping to get a yes or no

40:02answer, [laughter] but you've

40:04illustrated one of my most strong

40:06affections for an attorney and not

40:09giving me a yes or no answer. Uh, so

40:11I'll just repeat it for clarity. Um, in

40:14this in this arrangement, do they

40:16receive money?

40:18>> Yes.

40:18>> For this service?

40:19>> Absolutely. just just like the the

40:20Airbnb exception, the exact same thing

40:22on a smaller scale and the same as as

40:24the kennel would on a much grander

40:26scale.

40:26>> Thank you.

40:27>> Thank you.

40:27>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

40:28>> You're welcome, Mr. Cussy.

40:32>> Yeah, I don't I don't have anything on

40:33it really. I just uh

40:37if you can collect money on an Airbnb,

40:41uh why can't you collect money on a

40:45dog?

40:46>> If if Mr. Chairman, if if you posing

40:48that question to me,

40:49>> I'd be happy to I'd be happy I'd be

40:51happy to answer that. Um um when we

40:53actually close the public portion of the

40:56hearing,

40:57>> I think we're going a little bit outside

40:59our scope, but if you they did want to

41:01operate as an Airbnb, they'd still need

41:03a special permit, I think. So, that

41:06would be a different hearing. Um for

41:08this purpose, the notice that they get

41:11does I know it was a typo, but it does

41:14say 3.2.5.0.

41:15So, I still think we're stuck to that

41:17particular section tonight in my

41:20opinion.

41:22>> 100%.

41:23>> Yeah, I agree with that. And I'm

41:24actually not 100% sure where the this

41:27fits in the bylaws regardless of my

41:29feeling on sniff spots or whatever, but

41:31with respect to the notice that went

41:32out. I think it was faulty.

41:36>> The only thing you could do is continue

41:37if they wanted to continue.

41:39>> That is certainly a possibility that we

41:41could discuss after we close the public

41:42portion. Sure.

41:45I don't think we can close the public

41:46portion of the hearing before we discuss

41:49continue because why would they

41:50continue?

41:51>> Right.

41:51>> They were given notice of 3250.

41:55Is it legit or not? That's the question.

41:58>> Mhm.

41:58>> That's it.

41:59>> I'll make a motion if we can close the

42:02public hearing.

42:03>> I'll second.

42:04>> We got five people.

42:05>> Okay. So, do I just for officially do we

42:07have a motion to close the public

42:08portion of the hearing?

42:09>> Mr. Chairman, motion to close the public

42:10portion of the hearing.

42:11>> Do I have a second?

42:12>> Second the motion.

42:13>> All in favor? I

42:14>> I Okay, public portion of the hearing is

42:15closed. Miss Roach, your thoughts.

42:17>> I'll make a motion.

42:18>> Go ahead.

42:18>> Uh where's our little thing here?

42:22>> Um

42:26so again, right now, as of now, I will

42:30make a motion to grant the

42:34administrative appeal under section

42:373.2.5 2.5 of the Auburn zoning bylaw to

42:40appeal the cease and desist order as

42:43written. I do not believe this applies

42:45to section 3.2.5.0.

42:51End of the motion.

42:53>> Okay. And we have a second from Miss

42:55Bush. So, we'll do a roll call vote for

42:57this just in case. Uh, Vice Chair Maron,

43:00>> I'm going to deny, but I'm not going to

43:02do it without [laughter] discussion.

43:05So,

43:07I don't think that we want to get down

43:10the road of [laughter]

43:11overturning a cease and desist when this

43:13has been thoroughly thought out and

43:16vetted through the building commissioner

43:18as well as the associate town manager.

43:21In addition to that, this is clearly a

43:24business that's operating for commerce.

43:28So, I I failed to understand why this

43:31wouldn't apply as a business and why we

43:34would repeal. But it's not a retail

43:37store or sales. No one's saying the town

43:39can't refile. Tonight it's 3250

43:43and that's the wrong category. Respect

43:46to the town. Mistakes happen. Tonight

43:49our job is to look at what they were

43:51given. It's 3250

43:54which says retail stores and sales.

43:57They're saying for the first time

43:58tonight they heard about a typo. Well,

44:01okay. Then we need to if they want to

44:03reapply, sure, do it. But tonight,

44:07how can we say that there's anything

44:08other than 3.250 that was in the notice?

44:13>> So, you're falling that down on

44:14>> But again, you certainly have the right

44:16to deny. I'm I'm just saying that's my,

44:21you know,

44:22>> so you're saying that it's not because

44:24categorically it's in the wrong box.

44:27>> Basically, that's it. Yes, I'm not

44:29denying the town has an argument about

44:31something that is not on the agenda for

44:34tonight. If it's on the agenda another

44:35night, we'll get to it. But tonight,

44:38what's on the agenda is is the notice

44:40cease and desist from the town. They

44:42want to appeal it.

44:45Tonight, I think they win.

44:48>> It doesn't necessarily mean it's the

44:50last step of like No, I agree. I'm not

44:53I'm not I'm not going to challenge it.

44:54I'm I'm going to recoil my vote because

44:55I think from a technicality standpoint,

44:57we should walk that line. And so I will

45:00retract my my vote um of deny and and

45:03approve the appeal based on that typo

45:05basis.

45:06>> Thank you.

45:08>> Miss Bush

45:09>> and I vote to approve. So, um, as it

45:13stands right now, again, I think Miss

45:15Roach did a fantastic job of explaining

45:17everything and why we have to deny

45:19because based on it's a it's a

45:21typographical error, a

45:23misinterpretation, whatever it might be.

45:25But for now, as it stands, to do the

45:27right thing and protect the town from

45:29liability, I believe that we have to um

45:32stand on what we just agreed upon.

45:35So, you're you you win your appeal for

45:38now until the town decides to take

45:39further action and then we could

45:41possibly see you in another future

45:42meeting. I really don't know, but um I

45:45think the best I can tell you is stay

45:46tuned. So, do I have a motion to close

45:49the 6:05 p.m. hearing?

45:50>> Mr. Chairman, motion to close.

45:51>> Do I have a second? Second.

45:52>> All in favor?

45:53>> Any opposed? Hearing none. Seeing none,

45:55that is complete.

45:59Okay. If [clears throat] you want to,

46:00whoever would like to head out, we'll

46:03give you a couple of minutes and then

46:04we're going to move on to the 610.

46:11>> So, um, can I make a motion for a

46:13fiveminute recess?

46:15>> Motion to make a 5minute recess.

46:16>> Do I change this? Do

46:18>> favor.

46:19>> Okay. So, we're five minute recess,

46:20folks. You could ask town council. It is

46:23now

46:241846. We will reconvene at 1851.

51:55So we are now on to the 610 applicant

51:57branded realy group 2 LLC requesting a

52:02special permit under section 4.3.7.1

52:05of the Auburn zoning bylaw to construct

52:07a Duncan at 481 Washington Street map 57

52:11parcel 163. 3 in the Aquafer wershed

52:14protection district zone 2. Presently on

52:17these premises is a disused gas station

52:19and convenience store. It also has a uh

52:22active used car lot on it right now. The

52:25subject property is located in the

52:27general industrial zoning district. And

52:29before we begin and turn it over to the

52:31applicant, I'd like to point out that we

52:32received an email from a one Liantio

52:36um for 481 Washington Street.

52:40It says, um,

52:44"As owner of 486 to 488 Washington

52:47Street, I have one major concern

52:50regarding the construction of 481

52:51Washington Street, which would include

52:53the food service and drive-thru. If this

52:55project is approved, I encourage you to

52:57pursue having a traffic light installed

52:59in the intersection of Route 20, School

53:01Street, and Elm Street. There are

53:03multiple accidents of this intersection

53:04on a weekly basis, primarily due to the

53:06speed and the number of curb cuts.

53:08additional adding additional traffic

53:10would only make it worse. It is my

53:12opinion that a traffic light installed

53:14will certainly reduce the traffic

53:15hazards from South Street to Milbury

53:16Street as well. Thank you for your

53:18consideration. Lari Lancio, Pleasant

53:20Mobile Home Park uh mobile home park,

53:22excuse me, 486 to 488 Washington Street,

53:25Auburn. Um so I'm going to go ahead and

53:29turn it over to the applicant. Oh,

53:31sorry. Do I have a motion to open the

53:32hearing? Mr.

53:32>> Mr. Chairman, motion open.

53:34>> Do I have a second?

53:35>> All in favor?

53:36>> Okay. Um, so I'm going to go ahead and

53:38turn it over to the applicant if you

53:38want to give us your presentation,

53:39please.

53:40>> Uh, good evening. Thank you. My name is

53:41Robert Bron. I'm manager of Branded

53:43Realy Group 2. Uh, we are seeking two

53:45special permits. One to allow, as you

53:48mentioned, a food service establishment

53:49with a drive-thru and a special permit

53:52to allow greater than 15% impervious

53:54surface in the aquifer protection

53:57district. We're also seeking a variance

53:59for relief from the minimum landscape

54:00buffer for a business. And that's due to

54:04the unique shape of the site. It's sort

54:06of like a pike and in the back has a

54:08swampy wetland. Um, [clears throat] and

54:13the other uh thing I'd like to point out

54:15is they're also using that small

54:17building on the site as a convenience

54:19store. They have advertisements for

54:21vapes and energy drinks on it that they

54:23sell there. Um, I'd like to point out

54:26that uh this is not a self-created uh

54:29problem for the variance. Uh there's a

54:32practical difficulty due to the shape of

54:33the lot, the road layout in the town and

54:36state easements on the site. There's a

54:39very wide state roadway easement. Um the

54:42site is contaminated. There's a D file

54:45on it. We've been before conservation.

54:47Um one of we what we think are the

54:51greatest benefits to the town is that

54:53the people we're buying it from, it's

54:55essentially a publicly traded Reed Getty

54:57Realy. Um the seller is a subsidiary of

55:00that as as I understand it. Um they will

55:04if we are granted permits they will

55:07remediate the site. They will take out

55:09those old leaky gas tanks, all the old

55:11pipes, all the underground stuff. And

55:14again, it's an aquifer protection zone.

55:16So we think that's a paramount

55:18importance to to everybody and a huge

55:20benefit uh to the area. Um they haven't

55:24done that because they had hadn't had a

55:26buyer. um this is their opportunity to

55:28do it. Um we've had experience doing

55:32this before locally. We did it with a

55:35gas station Duncan drive-thru that we

55:37own in Kelly Square in Worcester across

55:39the street from the ballpark. It's also

55:40got a Jersey Mike's there and a and a

55:42car wash. Um we've done it several times

55:45in Ohio with Marathon Petroleum. Uh and

55:48it has resulted in a clean site. they

55:50generally end up being deed restricted

55:53um so that you can't use them for

55:55residential

55:56uh recreational activities, schools,

55:59daycare centers, that kind of thing. Um

56:02and while we would be creating more

56:04impervious surfaces, we will be adding

56:07as our civil engineer will will present

56:09a state-of-the-art drainage and

56:11retention system. And there's nothing

56:13there now. All the runoff from Route 20

56:15and on the site goes right into the

56:17aquifer. Um, so we think that is a

56:20distinct advantage. Um, and I know you

56:22had an email already that you read that

56:24referred to traffic. U, we believe the

56:27traffic's already there. That's why we

56:28want to be there. Um, we don't believe

56:31it will generate more traffic and we

56:32have our traffic engineer will present

56:34that evidence, evidence of the accidents

56:36that that have occurred there and their

56:38severity. And uh one thing I would like

56:41to note because it became up at the

56:43planning board is that they did counts

56:45in January, but there is a professional

56:48engineer factor that flattens it out so

56:51that it predicts what the traffic is

56:53throughout the year. And we wanted to do

56:55it at a time when school was in session.

56:57Um because obviously there's more

56:59traffic then and the kids walking,

57:01getting on and off buses, which I know

57:03is going to be your concern as it would

57:05be mine. I'm a parent. Um so with that I

57:08will leave it to my civil engineer.

57:14>> Good evening. Uh thank you Mr. Chair and

57:16members of the board. Uh my name is Alex

57:19Wood. I am an EIT civil engineer with

57:22Thompson Lon Associates.

57:25Just to uh elaborate a little bit more

57:28on the proposal here. Um currently

57:30showing on the screen we have the

57:32existing conditions plan. Um so the site

57:36is located as you can see at the

57:38intersection of Washington Street or

57:40State Route 20 and Elm Street. Um and

57:43the lot area is approximately 1.54 acres

57:47and as Mr. Bronco pointed out

57:49>> situated within the general

57:52aquifer and watershed protection overlay

57:55district.

57:56Um given the fact that it is situated in

57:59the um aquifer and wershed protection

58:01overlay district and therefore a a zone

58:03to

58:06applicant has through the design that we

58:08are taking the appropriate measures for

58:11construction period erosion controls as

58:13presented on sheet um C1.2 of the set um

58:17as well as uh permanent measures which

58:20can be found on sheet um C3 showing the

58:23grading and drainage improvements um as

58:26well as on the landscape sheet on C5.1.

58:30So given um that the existing runoff um

58:34is untreated and u runs to two design

58:37points, one being the street itself uh

58:40for route 20 and the other being the wet

58:42land u on the opposing side. Um our

58:46proposal involves capturing that runoff

58:49um through a treatment train which

58:51consists

58:52quality units uh as well as deep sump

58:56and hooded catch basins and storm water

58:58infiltration measures. Uh this is

59:00consistent with the Massachusetts

59:01Department of Environmental Protection

59:03stormwater standards and the local storm

59:05water bylaw for the town of Auburn. And

59:08so we are meeting the requirements um as

59:11presented um in in those documents and

59:14also um we have worked with the

59:16landscape architect to increase um the

59:19trees along the uh frontage um

59:23especially considering that there are

59:25some trees which will be cut in the

59:27proposed condition due to the fact that

59:28we are expanding the limit of work in

59:30the direction of the wetland resource

59:31area.

59:34Um but given given the proposal um we

59:37have also applied for site plan review

59:39from the planning board as well as uh to

59:41the conservation commission.

59:44Uh we have received a D file number as

59:46well. So we are working with the

59:47commission regarding that. Um but as Mr.

59:48Bronco pointed out we are here um in

59:50front of the zoning board of appeals um

59:52to discuss these two special permits and

59:54the variance um for the associated use.

59:57And with that I would like to uh turn it

1:00:00over to Lisa to discuss the specifics of

1:00:02the traffic. Thank you.

1:00:12>> Good evening, members of the board. My

1:00:14name is Lisa Juan with Kimley Horn and I

1:00:17worked on the traffic study for the 481

1:00:20Washington Street. Today we're going to

1:00:23walk through the study area, how we

1:00:25conducted the process for the traffic

1:00:27analysis, the existing conditions of the

1:00:30intersection, the corridor, the proposed

1:00:33pro project characteristics as it

1:00:36relates to traffic, drive-thru, and

1:00:38parking, and then ultimately the

1:00:41conclusions and the proposed mitigation.

1:00:44The purpose of the traffic study is to

1:00:47really understand what's the current

1:00:48transportation system. Um, estimating

1:00:51that project related traffic demands,

1:00:53how much traffic is the site generating,

1:00:56assess impact on the streets and

1:00:59intersections, and then ultimately

1:01:01really identifying potential mitigation.

1:01:05So for the study process, we conducted

1:01:07our turning movement counts and um

1:01:11hourly flows during a weekday in January

1:01:142026. As Rob alluded to for the traffic

1:01:19counts, we accounted for seasonal

1:01:21adjustment. So it's really important

1:01:23that when we're doing our counts, we

1:01:25adjust it to make sure that it's in line

1:01:28based on mass DOT. And this was done

1:01:30when school was in session. We also

1:01:32obtained the most recent five years of

1:01:34crash data through Mass DOT's crash

1:01:37portal. So from 2021 to 2025,

1:01:40forecast of our traffic demands plus

1:01:43seven years as we do our traffic study.

1:01:46I'll talk about the traffic flow,

1:01:48drive-through analysis, the parking

1:01:50demand for this site and determine the

1:01:53needs and potential mitigation

1:01:56on the site. You see that there are

1:01:58ultimately four study intersection. The

1:02:02first study intersection is that

1:02:04Washington Street at Elm Street/School

1:02:06Street, which is a two-way stop

1:02:08controlled. And then the intersection at

1:02:12two, it's Elm Street at the site

1:02:14driveway. That is unsalized. And it's

1:02:16also a full access indicating that you

1:02:19can turn a left in, a right in, and then

1:02:22when you're leaving the site, you can

1:02:24also do a left and a right. at

1:02:26intersection three which is along

1:02:28Washington Street. That is um also

1:02:31unsalized but it's a right in only at

1:02:35intersection 4 that is um also unsalized

1:02:38and it's a right out only. Do note that

1:02:42Washington Street and a section of Elm

1:02:46Street that is under Mass DOT

1:02:48jurisdiction. So that intersection is

1:02:50also under Mass DOT's um jurisdiction as

1:02:53well.

1:02:55So, let's talk about the corridor

1:02:57itself. Washington Street, Route 20, um

1:03:00two-lane undivided roadway. Um 40 miles

1:03:03per hour speed limit. When we conducted

1:03:06our counts, um the speed limit as well,

1:03:0985th percentile, it's coming up higher

1:03:11than the posted speed limit. It's a

1:03:14principal arterial roadway. Um carries a

1:03:16lot of traffic and it is under Mass DOT

1:03:19jurisdiction. We had when we first were

1:03:22beginning the traffic study as we ran

1:03:24into the analysis, we coordinated with

1:03:28district um to really understand are

1:03:30there any improvements that they're

1:03:33looking at this intersection and when we

1:03:35coordinated with them a couple of months

1:03:37ago, nothing was on their radar.

1:03:40Additionally, we also did a signal

1:03:42warrant analysis for the existing

1:03:45conditions for 2026 and even 2035

1:03:49following the manual um uniform traffic

1:03:52control devices. This intersection

1:03:54doesn't meet um the the warrants. So, we

1:03:58did do some analysis to just determine

1:04:01does the signal work? Um is DOT doing

1:04:04anything at this moment.

1:04:08So along the corridor I mentioned that

1:04:10we conducted counts in January um along

1:04:14Washington Street as you can see here um

1:04:17fluctuation of volume really um it

1:04:20really dips down throughout the day but

1:04:22then at 3 to 4 that's when the peak

1:04:25occurs and then it slowly dips down once

1:04:28again along the corridor it's about

1:04:3121,000 vehicles per day and looking at

1:04:34the AM and PM um the AM peak hour was

1:04:37about 75 15 to 8:15 and the PM it's

1:04:40about 4 to 5.

1:04:44So we looked at the most recent data of

1:04:47crash data. So at the intersection of

1:04:51Washington Street at Elm Street, there

1:04:53were 37 reported crashes. 51% of that

1:04:57were angled crashes. There were no

1:05:00fatalities at that intersection.

1:05:02However, there was a serious injury

1:05:05crash. It was an angled crash as I

1:05:07mentioned 51% were angled crashes. Um

1:05:11other crash type were rearend crashes

1:05:14and sides swept crashes were the other

1:05:17ones.

1:05:18Additionally, um, at the study

1:05:20intersections, there were no top crash

1:05:23clusters present with our study area.

1:05:25And that's using Mass DOT's crash

1:05:27portal. Really understanding is this

1:05:30area a hot spot or on their radar.

1:05:35And it's it's not.

1:05:38These are some of the photos at the

1:05:40intersection because this is the main

1:05:42intersection to get to our site

1:05:44depending on where you're coming to and

1:05:46from. um two-way stop controlled

1:05:49intersection. Um you're stopped at Elm

1:05:51Street and School Street and you have

1:05:53that blinking light for when you're on

1:05:56the stop controlled, it's red and then

1:05:58the other one is more yellow/ orange.

1:06:04For the intersection, for the project

1:06:06itself, it is a proposed drive-thru

1:06:08Duncan facility and a commercial space

1:06:11in one commercial building. as uh other

1:06:16people mentioned that it used to be a

1:06:17convenience store and a used car sales

1:06:20lot and then previously it was a gas

1:06:22station. Ultimately for the drive-thru

1:06:26it's a 2400 square ft. The commercial

1:06:29space is 4,000 square ft.

1:06:33There are three site access points along

1:06:36this corridor. And again, these access

1:06:38points, it is under DOT's jurisdiction,

1:06:41even along Elm Street.

1:06:46This is the site plan. Um, Alex shared

1:06:49that as well, but just sharing it again.

1:06:51Um,

1:06:54along Elm Street, you can see that it's

1:06:56the full access along Washington Street,

1:06:58the first um the first driveway. that is

1:07:02a right in. And then the second access

1:07:05point or driveway along Washington

1:07:07Street, that's a right out.

1:07:13So I went over the project itself. Uh I

1:07:16went over what the project type is, when

1:07:19we collected traffic counts. Um now we

1:07:22need to figure out how are how are cars

1:07:24getting to and from the site. So we

1:07:27identify the overall estimated trip

1:07:29distribution. This is based on existing

1:07:32traffic patterns. So when we are looking

1:07:34at the existing traffic patterns coming

1:07:37to and from the north along School

1:07:39Street, that's about 1% to our site or

1:07:43along Elm Street is coming um to and

1:07:47from the south that's about 5% to the

1:07:50site. And then along Washington Street,

1:07:52it's about an even split about 47%.

1:07:56So this is important when we're figuring

1:07:58out how are folks getting to and from

1:08:00our site.

1:08:03The net new vehicle trips basically how

1:08:05much additional traffic is this site

1:08:08generating. So there's two different

1:08:10land use codes. One is the coffee donor

1:08:13shop with the drive-thru and the second

1:08:15one is the strip retail that commercial

1:08:17space of that 4,000 square ft. Um when

1:08:22we are looking at the different land use

1:08:24codes and this is based on IT the

1:08:27Institute of Transportation Engineers

1:08:29the 12th editions

1:08:31um you also have to account for pass

1:08:34trips are only applied for the coffee

1:08:36and donut shop and what that is is that

1:08:40people are already on the road they see

1:08:43a a type of facility a Duncan facility

1:08:45they're going to stop by and continue on

1:08:48their destination. So they're a pass by

1:08:50trip. Their intention was never the

1:08:53Duncan. It their intention was somewhere

1:08:55else but saw it and just pulled over. So

1:08:58we accounted the pass by trip only for

1:09:00the Duncan, not for the commercial.

1:09:02Ultimately, when we're looking at the AM

1:09:06peak hour, there is a net increase of

1:09:09about 51 trips. Meaning that there's 27

1:09:12cars entering, 24 cars leaving. during

1:09:16the weekday PM peak period. That's about

1:09:1843 total trips. 22 cars are entering and

1:09:22then 21 cars are um leaving. So to give

1:09:26you that capa uh information,

1:09:30we looked at the capacity analysis of

1:09:32how is the traffic operating now as Rob

1:09:35alluded to when we're looking at

1:09:37Washington Street at Elm/School Street.

1:09:40When we looked at the existing

1:09:42conditions 2026 and when we looked at

1:09:44the future conditions without our

1:09:46project so it's 2033 no build the

1:09:50intersection operates poorly hence why

1:09:53we coordinated with DOT something is

1:09:56happening right now it exists we wanted

1:09:59to coordinate with them is there

1:10:00something on the horizon

1:10:03[snorts] so then ultimately when you add

1:10:05on our project trips less than 50 trips

1:10:08for the different peak hours,

1:10:11the operations does deteriorate

1:10:13slightly, especially because it it's

1:10:15already operating poorly. Things that

1:10:18are really bad, it's that southbound

1:10:19approach along School Street exiting and

1:10:22the northbound movements, especially

1:10:24when turning left. Again, just want to

1:10:28be really clear that in the existing no

1:10:30build conditions, it operates really um

1:10:33really poorly and especially because

1:10:36Washington Street has such a high amount

1:10:38of volume that the side street you're

1:10:40going to experience some delays.

1:10:44So, the next thing is going through the

1:10:46drive-thru lane capacity. Just really

1:10:49understand how many cars can um really

1:10:52stacked onto the site. So when you're

1:10:56looking at the site, there is a variety

1:10:58of different colors, but closest to

1:11:01exiting along Washington Street, that

1:11:03right out access, you see this um maroon

1:11:08or purple colors, that's about 12

1:11:11vehicles that can stacked within the um

1:11:13the drive-thru mark lanes. And then

1:11:16ultimately, when we're looking at Oh,

1:11:20I'm so sorry. from the the the

1:11:23uh this color and the red color, that's

1:11:25about 12 vehicles that can be stacked

1:11:27within the drive-thru mark lanes. The

1:11:30additional eight vehicles, that's the

1:11:32orange colors over here. So that's about

1:11:3420 vehicles that can be stacked along

1:11:37the corridor or along the circulation.

1:11:41And then in the yellow, that's about

1:11:43additional three to four vehicles that

1:11:45can be spa that could be stacked until

1:11:47spillback onto Washington Street.

1:11:50Ultimately, this site provides more than

1:11:53adequate storage. Um, it stacks 12,

1:11:56eight, and then ultimately can go up to

1:11:5823 before spilling back to Washington

1:12:01Street. We don't anticipate cars are

1:12:05spilling all the way to Washington

1:12:06Street, especially with the service time

1:12:09as well. This is just the worstc case

1:12:11scenario and really understanding how

1:12:14many cars can be fit within this

1:12:16drive-through lane.

1:12:19Another component for our analysis is

1:12:21the parking demand. Really understanding

1:12:24how much parking is being provided and

1:12:27does it actually meet the demand. Very

1:12:30similar when we are forecasting traffic,

1:12:33we use the same methodology for parking.

1:12:36We're using the um same land use code.

1:12:40It's going to be the strip retail and

1:12:43the coffee and doughnut shop drive-thru

1:12:45analysis. For this analysis, we did a

1:12:48weekday component and also a Saturday.

1:12:51This is an hourly distribution because

1:12:53when you're looking at the different

1:12:54land use codes, it's going to have

1:12:56different peaks throughout the day.

1:12:59Ultimately, when we're looking at the

1:13:02weekday at 12 and 1:00 p.m., that's the

1:13:05peak and that's about 19 cars are parked

1:13:09there. and that uh indicates that

1:13:11there's 13 additional spots because this

1:13:14site has um 32 parking spaces. And then

1:13:18Saturday as well, the peak occurs at

1:13:2110:00 a.m. and that's about 26 parking

1:13:25spaces being occupied, indicating that

1:13:28there's six parking spots being

1:13:30available. So the peak parking demand

1:13:32never um reaches the parking required or

1:13:36parking number that's being provided as

1:13:39well. So it's under that threshold.

1:13:44Um in conclusions, just letting

1:13:46everybody you know that during the AM

1:13:48peak hour, it's a net new trips of 51 um

1:13:51trips. During the weekday peak period,

1:13:54it's about 43. We also took a look at

1:13:57the stopping sight distance along the

1:14:00site driveways for Elm and Washington

1:14:02Street and we exceed the minimum

1:14:04required really understanding that we

1:14:06want to make sure that people can see

1:14:08cars pulling out and so forth. Um sight

1:14:11distance is really important. Um the

1:14:14site provides more than adequate storage

1:14:16for the drive-thru.

1:14:19Vehicles approaching Elm and School

1:14:21Street are going to experience those

1:14:22delays. Washington Street is a heavily

1:14:24traveled roadway.

1:14:26The proposed parking number is well

1:14:29below than the um number of spaces being

1:14:32provided.

1:14:34The last slide here just shows the

1:14:36ultimate site plan. Once again, we when

1:14:39we coordinated with DOT um even in the

1:14:42signage area, it is within DOT's

1:14:45jurisdiction. So really just making sure

1:14:47that we have those stop controlled at

1:14:50the intersections where you're leaving

1:14:52the site or just making sure that

1:14:54there's do not enter signage especially

1:14:57along Washington Street at some of the

1:14:59locations because you cannot turn a left

1:15:02in.

1:15:04>> Thank you.

1:15:06>> Thank you.

1:15:07>> Okay. Are there any of Butters here this

1:15:09evening that want to speak on this

1:15:10matter?

1:15:11If you could approach the lect turn,

1:15:12please give us your name and address.

1:15:20Hi, I'm Lisa Underdon, three Brook

1:15:23Street, Auburn, and I'm not sure if I'm

1:15:27considered in a butter, but I do go down

1:15:30Elm Street to Route 20 every single day

1:15:33when I leave my house. And um I'm not

1:15:36against Dunkin Donuts. love the

1:15:38franchise, but I just want to echo the

1:15:41concerns of the woman that sent the

1:15:43email uh regarding the safety concerns.

1:15:46And if this proposal were to be passed,

1:15:50I would also love to see a traffic light

1:15:52there because even though there were no

1:15:55fatalities

1:15:57at that, [laughter] excuse me, at that

1:16:00particular intersection,

1:16:02just a few feet down from that

1:16:04intersection. There have been several

1:16:06fatalities that I know of, at least

1:16:10a friend of my daughter's had a

1:16:13grandfather that was killed right down

1:16:15there. So, it as as it stands, there's

1:16:19the blinking yellow and red lights at

1:16:21that intersection, and I think those are

1:16:24useless. And if you have the added

1:16:27traffic with Dunkin Donuts there, I I

1:16:30think there's um serious need for a

1:16:33traffic light.

1:16:35And that's it.

1:16:36>> I appreciate that. So, one of the things

1:16:38just so you understand is because it's a

1:16:40numbered road, Route 20, like Route 12,

1:16:43290, right? the rest this they have very

1:16:45strict state regulations on that. We

1:16:48could suggest or have a letter written

1:16:50of concern but we really don't have any

1:16:52authority to insert to insert a light

1:16:54there. But I do also recall and for the

1:16:56record that's where Mr. Robadoo was

1:16:58killed just about 100 yards up the

1:17:00street from there. So I do I do recall

1:17:02that and he was a a a great town

1:17:04resident and I I miss him actually. Um,

1:17:08but again, unfortunately, I see Miss

1:17:10Miss Lancio's letter and your concern,

1:17:13but there's very little this board can

1:17:15do about that. So, but I appreciate your

1:17:17your concern.

1:17:21>> Oh, yeah.

1:17:22>> Um, any others that would like to

1:17:24comment on this?

1:17:27>> Okay. Um, and I also have to talk about

1:17:29one thing that I rec I recognized a um

1:17:32another administrative error and I'll

1:17:34allow the town side to comment on this,

1:17:36but if you notice that the applicant has

1:17:38requested two special permits and a

1:17:40variance and it's only listed as one

1:17:42special permit under 4.3.7.1

1:17:45in the advertisement.

1:17:48>> The notice that went out had both all

1:17:51three. the one that I got.

1:17:54>> Yeah, I believe I think I think he's

1:17:55referring to the agenda.

1:17:59>> Maybe I got a late one. Maybe I got a

1:18:00one that was

1:18:02>> It's not on my agenda.

1:18:03>> It's not on Miss Roach's agenda as well.

1:18:06>> Not on yours either.

1:18:07>> Yeah, it doesn't appear to be on any of

1:18:09ours on the agenda. M.

1:18:10>> So, I'll just read it again for the

1:18:12record. It says 610 applicant branded

1:18:13realy LLC 2 requesting a special

1:18:16perimeter under section 4.3.7.1 of the

1:18:18oven zoning bylaw to construct a Duncan

1:18:20at 481 washer street map 5753

1:18:23in the Aquafford watershed protection

1:18:25district zone 2 present presently on the

1:18:27premises is a disused gas station

1:18:29convenience store the subject property

1:18:31is located in the general industrial

1:18:32zone district so in order to to

1:18:34correctly vote on this we would have to

1:18:36have it actually state and again I'll

1:18:38let the town comment on it and maybe I'm

1:18:41But it should list the two special

1:18:43permits and the variants in the

1:18:44advertising or it can be contested.

1:18:49>> Yes, sir.

1:18:50>> All three.

1:18:55>> Good evening, Mr. Chair. Paul Delequila,

1:18:57assistant town manager and director of

1:18:59economic development. Uh, as Mr. Branka

1:19:01noted, the the notice was sent properly.

1:19:05It appears that the agenda did not

1:19:07include all three of the requested

1:19:08measures. Uh I'm not predicting what the

1:19:11board's going to do. Uh but I would

1:19:13anticipate perhaps a continuence tonight

1:19:15anyway.

1:19:15>> I think that's where I was leaning

1:19:17towards it.

1:19:17>> And so my advice to the board would be

1:19:20uh technically since the only thing

1:19:21advertised on this agenda was for the

1:19:23impervious surface or the I'm sorry in

1:19:25the aquifer district. Uh I would just

1:19:27advise the board at the next meeting,

1:19:29we'll make sure everything is listed

1:19:30properly on the agenda. But you'll have

1:19:32to open

1:19:34those hearings that were not listed on

1:19:36the agenda tonight. if that makes sense.

1:19:38What I'm trying to say

1:19:39>> it does. So I think if I could summarize

1:19:42correctly and if I'm not doing so,

1:19:44please let me know is vote on the one

1:19:46particular special permit that's

1:19:48available to us this evening and then

1:19:49continue it or you want to continue the

1:19:50whole thing?

1:19:51>> Well, if the if the board well if the

1:19:54board feels prepared to vote on the uh

1:19:56the one that was on the agenda tonight,

1:19:58that's I think that's within the

1:20:00purview. However, uh it was advertised.

1:20:05All of them were advertised tonight. And

1:20:06I think perhaps in the interest of

1:20:08making it all neat and tidy, uh I would

1:20:12encourage the board perhaps to vote them

1:20:14all at the same time.

1:20:15>> Understood. Thank you for that

1:20:16clarification. Okay. So, um with that

1:20:21being said, just to make sure we have

1:20:22any other butters that want to speak on

1:20:24this matter.

1:20:26Okay. Hearing none, seeing none, um I'll

1:20:29turn it over to the other board members.

1:20:30What do you I think that's our best

1:20:31approach would be to I mean they've

1:20:33completed their presentation. Do we need

1:20:35to have the um the plans peerreviewed?

1:20:41>> I I would request it uh Mr. chairman,

1:20:43but I think for this evening, I think we

1:20:44asked the we asked the applicant um if

1:20:48they would um entertain

1:20:51essentially uh continuing it so that we

1:20:54can straighten out the agenda, make sure

1:20:56that all three are

1:20:57>> we we actually have paid for a peer

1:20:59review already. Uh that's in process.

1:21:02>> It is. Oh, good. Okay. So, I think the

1:21:05best process moving forward here, if you

1:21:08want to comment, Miss Roach, go ahead.

1:21:10>> Actually, they they did complete it. My

1:21:11engineer just said Grace just sent them

1:21:13comments

1:21:14>> today. Yeah.

1:21:15>> So, we'll we'll respond to those.

1:21:18>> Um, and we'd love to get as many votes

1:21:21as we could sooner rather than later.

1:21:23>> Sure.

1:21:23>> Uh, one thing I'd like the board to know

1:21:26is that we have a 90day window to get

1:21:29permits for Getty to be able to come in

1:21:31and clean up the site.

1:21:32>> Understood.

1:21:33>> Otherwise, they won't do it. So,

1:21:35>> Okay. And again, it's because we've had

1:21:38um issues in the past where if it wasn't

1:21:40advertised properly. We had one

1:21:42particular permit that's holding up a

1:21:44business right now. It's in court

1:21:45because it wasn't advertised properly

1:21:48and they had a a competitor across the

1:21:51street file a lawsuit against it.

1:21:54>> Process is important. Yes. [laughter]

1:21:56>> So I again we I would not want to

1:21:57jeopardize your project because we made

1:21:59a mistake on our end.

1:22:01>> I would rather have it come back in the

1:22:02September. we could put it for the first

1:22:04agenda on the item um and we could vote

1:22:06on it that evening and then your peer

1:22:08review could be complete by then. We

1:22:10could probably wrap it all up in

1:22:11September is what I'm thinking.

1:22:12>> If you are prepared to vote on the one

1:22:14item that was advertised,

1:22:16we would like that to happen.

1:22:18>> Um and uh the the notice that we got

1:22:22like the public notice had all three.

1:22:23So, anybody that was entitled to notice

1:22:26got notice.

1:22:26>> And I think just side of caution,

1:22:28>> and again, I would hate to have somebody

1:22:30file a complaint or a lawsuit and then

1:22:32vacate your your project and then put

1:22:35you completely outside of that 90-day

1:22:36window. I I just not want to I would

1:22:38hate to jeopardize that for you. And

1:22:40quite honestly, I I know that that

1:22:42people may feel otherwise about the

1:22:44project, but I'm only speaking for

1:22:45myself. I find this really I think this

1:22:48is a positive project for the town just

1:22:50for the simple fact of cleaning up a

1:22:52brownfield. I mean, that's been down

1:22:54there for years. We've given average

1:22:55we've given permits to that location

1:22:58three or four times in an effort to keep

1:23:00it open. And ideally, it would be really

1:23:02nice to get that area cleaned up. So, I

1:23:05I don't I'm not speaking for the entire

1:23:06board, but just for myself, I'd love to

1:23:08see that happen. So, um do we want to

1:23:11have any other comments? Do you want to

1:23:13>> I I don't have any comments, Mr.

1:23:14Chairman, but did Miss Roach have a

1:23:16couple of questions that she want to

1:23:17address tonight?

1:23:18>> I mean, I guess I

1:23:20a couple things. First, I just wanted to

1:23:22say in eight years on the board, that is

1:23:24by far the best traffic presentation we

1:23:26have ever been given. And I mean that

1:23:29wholeheartedly.

1:23:31>> That's the best traffic presentation

1:23:32that we have heard in my almost 10 years

1:23:34on the board.

1:23:35>> We have an excellent traffic engine.

1:23:37>> Thank you. You did excellent.

1:23:39>> Very thorough.

1:23:39>> Um

1:23:41and I guess I know advice of uh

1:23:45assistant town manager was maybe to

1:23:48continue everything

1:23:51I would be prepared to vote on what was

1:23:55already

1:23:57done correctly if it sounds like the

1:24:00applicant is not opposed to that. I'm

1:24:02just putting that out there for myself.

1:24:04Um,

1:24:05but obviously we can't vote on the other

1:24:08uh items on the agenda.

1:24:10>> Special interference I think would be in

1:24:11jeopardy.

1:24:11>> And I do just have a question for the

1:24:13applicant. Do you have any So, the

1:24:15Dunkin Donuts, according to the uh

1:24:18sorry, C5.1

1:24:20plan, the Dunkin Donuts looks like it's

1:24:23going to occupy 2400 square ft.

1:24:25>> That is correct.

1:24:26>> The other uh 4,000 square ft. Do you

1:24:30have any potential tenants for that? And

1:24:32is that something you're willing to

1:24:33comment on? That's a question I that I

1:24:35personally have.

1:24:36>> Um, sure.

1:24:37>> It's retail. We would look for something

1:24:39that's different peak periods to the

1:24:40Duncan, which we've done on many of our,

1:24:43>> right? Um I have talked to a convenience

1:24:46store operator. Um again, it's a

1:24:49convenience store there now. This would

1:24:50be a more much more modern one. They

1:24:52operate several in Worcester County.

1:24:54We've partnered with them on other

1:24:56sites. Um the most recent one is 590

1:25:00Southbridge Street in Worcester. Uh

1:25:03nothing is signed. It's just they're

1:25:04friends and we've done deals together

1:25:06before. Um, and that looks promising.

1:25:09Um, we have not spoken to anybody else.

1:25:12>> Okay.

1:25:13>> We wanted obviously to satisfy the

1:25:15town's requirements. So then we could go

1:25:18solicit tenants.

1:25:19>> I just I think that's a consideration

1:25:21which when we talk about parking,

1:25:23although that's not on for tonight, but

1:25:25I do think that's a consideration as to

1:25:28how many spots you need.

1:25:29>> Came up a lot in the planning board for

1:25:30site plan review.

1:25:31>> It did. Okay.

1:25:33And you've been to planning board

1:25:34already and are all set with

1:25:37>> they wanted to wait for the peer review

1:25:38to come in.

1:25:39>> Okay. And that's back and comments from

1:25:41Graves have been received just not

1:25:43responded to yet.

1:25:45>> I haven't seen

1:25:46>> Okay.

1:25:49Okay. I think we wait for Graves.

1:25:53>> Okay. So, uh, do I have a motion to

1:25:55close the public portion on the hearing?

1:25:56>> Before we do, Mr. Chairman, would you

1:25:58entertain just one one followup

1:25:59question? and they may not be prepared

1:26:01to discuss this tonight so we can kick

1:26:03this forward to the next hearing but the

1:26:05increase on imperous surface do you have

1:26:07numbers around that of what the actual

1:26:09total increase would be

1:26:11>> on percentage

1:26:12>> um through the chair um yes yes we do so

1:26:15the existing um pave surfaces and

1:26:18concrete is approximately 18,000 square

1:26:20ft um and as for the proposed um we

1:26:24estimated it'll be approximately uh

1:26:2635,000 square ft um of course you know

1:26:29subject to change from planning board

1:26:30items if there are any um you know

1:26:32comments from them or from the peer

1:26:34review but we estimate it'll be within

1:26:35that threshold and um the proposed

1:26:38services are routed to the subsurface

1:26:41infiltration and water quality unit

1:26:43measures so we are effectively

1:26:45mitigating the storm water uh runoff

1:26:47associated with those surfaces and with

1:26:49the building roof as well

1:26:51>> understood I mean I would fully expect

1:26:53that the recharge system I mean it would

1:26:55be a significant improvement so I get

1:26:58that but you're talking about going from

1:26:5918 to 35 in estimate.

1:27:02>> Yes, approximate approximately. Yep.

1:27:04Correct.

1:27:04>> All right. Just so I can have numbers in

1:27:05my head. I'll work out the percentages

1:27:06later. I won't ask you for the math. Uh

1:27:08but I I just I I'll park at it for next

1:27:10time. Thank you, sir.

1:27:11>> Thank you.

1:27:12>> I don't I I'm not opposed to I mean I I

1:27:14would agree with Miss Roach. I'm not

1:27:15opposed to voting on the one tonight,

1:27:18but um but at the same time, I would

1:27:20defer to taking it as a package. The the

1:27:22assistant town manager had spoken on it

1:27:24and so I would I would defer to his

1:27:26opinion and taking it as a package. I

1:27:28think that would be the best.

1:27:28>> And I I think I'll retract my because I

1:27:31I guess I missed the part about Graves.

1:27:32So I think I would want to hear back

1:27:34from what the Graves comments are on the

1:27:36site plan before I I I mean I would vote

1:27:38if we were forced, but I I think we

1:27:40probably should wait till we hear back

1:27:42what from peer review um and do them all

1:27:45together at the next meeting.

1:27:47>> I would agree with that, Mr. Chairman.

1:27:48>> Okay. [clears throat] Um so I think

1:27:51formally I think the best way we've done

1:27:52this in the past is to have you request

1:27:54the per uh the continuation to the

1:27:56board. we'll accept it and then we can

1:27:58put it on for the first agenda for the

1:28:00September it would be 9:17

1:28:04>> 17th

1:28:04>> um just given the fact that we have to

1:28:06revertise it make sure it's safe so

1:28:08>> Oh no no I I get that with the other

1:28:11drive-thru permit's very important and

1:28:13if we were to receive it I can go back

1:28:15to Getty Realy and say hey look the town

1:28:17has given us one of the most significant

1:28:19ones

1:28:20>> um so if we need more time

1:28:23>> I can that's a good argument for me to

1:28:25get more time

1:28:31Um

1:28:32>> um

1:28:33>> I mean I'm not really opposed to it. I I

1:28:35don't I don't I think it would be an act

1:28:36of good faith for the board.

1:28:41>> Um sorry I just want to look at one

1:28:44thing.

1:28:45>> I trust you.

1:28:52>> So are we suggesting Mr. chairman that

1:28:54that if we were not to take a vote

1:28:56tonight that there would be something

1:28:57that times out to your permitting

1:28:59process.

1:29:00>> Well, it cuts 30 days into

1:29:02>> I don't know what's going to happen. So,

1:29:04that's like I'm trying to get as much

1:29:06certainty as I can into the process so

1:29:08that when I speak to them,

1:29:10>> you know, we have to demonstrate that we

1:29:11used best efforts, that we attended all

1:29:13the hearings, we hired good experts, all

1:29:17of that.

1:29:18>> Understood. Um, and if I can go back and

1:29:20show, hey, look, we've got a critical

1:29:22permit.

1:29:24The and and I mean, this is your

1:29:26discretion. The other two are relatively

1:29:28minor compared to the one that you could

1:29:30vote on tonight. I think we can all

1:29:32agree on that. Um, that's a good strong

1:29:35argument for us. No,

1:29:36>> it's a it's a fair argument. I agree.

1:29:37>> And then there's an appeal period after

1:29:40you act, so we have to wait through

1:29:42that. But I think, correct me if I'm

1:29:44wrong, I I don't think the the only one

1:29:47that was correctly on for tonight is the

1:29:50aquifer and watershed. The one for the

1:29:51drive-thru is not on. So, we can't vote

1:29:54on that.

1:29:55>> I mean, again, you know, your notice is

1:29:57different than ours, but for us, the

1:29:59night the one for tonight is the 4.371

1:30:03um which deals with aquafer and

1:30:05watershed protection, right? Um so,

1:30:07that's really the only one we could have

1:30:09voted on for tonight.

1:30:10>> Okay. And I obviously we presented

1:30:12evidence of the storm water, you have

1:30:14the plans, as you noted, it's a

1:30:16significant improvement of the current

1:30:18conditions. Um, and given that it's in

1:30:20that zone 2 area, it's a priority for

1:30:24the town and the state.

1:30:26>> And again, I do apologize. I I this is

1:30:28something that we didn't catch until the

1:30:30last minute, and I'd like to just make

1:30:31sure again it's done correctly for you.

1:30:33>> Thank you.

1:30:34>> So, do we have an agreement? Would you'd

1:30:36like to submit a request for a

1:30:37continuence to the next meeting? Okay.

1:30:38So, we have a request for continuence

1:30:40for the next meeting. Do I have a a

1:30:42motion to accept,

1:30:43>> Mr. Chairman? I would request that we

1:30:45accept a motion to accept.

1:30:47>> Uh, do I have a second?

1:30:48>> Second.

1:30:49>> All in favor?

1:30:50>> Any opposed? Hearing? None. Seeing none.

1:30:52So, just for the record, we'd like to be

1:30:54able to make sure that this gets

1:30:55reverted uh correctly and that is put on

1:30:58the agenda for the first item in the

1:31:00next meeting.

1:31:01>> Thank you.

1:31:03>> Okay. Thank you very much. And this, by

1:31:04the way, this remains open. So, if

1:31:06anybody has any public comments or any

1:31:07concerns, if this is a continuation,

1:31:09this is not a closing out, just for the

1:31:11record.

1:31:12And we do apologize. Sorry about that.

1:31:19>> I mean, on the good note, your

1:31:20presentation is complete.

1:31:22>> So, we should probably be able to do a a

1:31:24relatively quick review on the other

1:31:27elements that you have, and it should, I

1:31:29think, should probably go pretty

1:31:30smoothly. I can't speak for the members

1:31:31of the board, but I would imagine it

1:31:33should go pretty well.

1:31:34>> Thank you very much. appreciate time.

1:31:36>> Have a good evening.

1:31:37>> Thanks.

1:31:38>> Okay. Um, we have a 615 applicant,

1:31:42Yabbouti Muhammad Napon, requesting a

1:31:45special permit under section 3.2.6.1.2

1:31:50of the Auburn zoning bylaw have a

1:31:52seasonal auto repair shop at 41 Elm

1:31:54Street, map 58, parcel 50. Presently,

1:31:56the parcel is a residential and tool

1:31:58storage. The subject property is located

1:32:00in the general industrial zoning

1:32:02district. Do have a motion to open the

1:32:04hearing. Yes, chairman. Motion to open

1:32:05the hearing.

1:32:06>> Do I have a second? Second.

1:32:07>> All in favor? I.

1:32:08>> Any opposed?

1:32:09>> Hearing none. Seeing none. Is the

1:32:10applicant present?

1:32:14>> I don't see.

1:32:18>> Uh, is the applicant present? One more

1:32:20time. Just making sure.

1:32:24>> That's weird.

1:32:25>> Okay. Uh, one final time. Third. Is the

1:32:27applicant present?

1:32:29>> Hearing none. Seeing none. Um,

1:32:30>> so I think in the past we have as a

1:32:34board allowed, we have continued the

1:32:37meeting for one meeting in order to give

1:32:38the applicant the benefit of the doubt.

1:32:40So, I'm certainly willing to make a

1:32:42motion to continue

1:32:45the hearing for the 6:15 application

1:32:50under 3.2.6.1.2

1:32:52of a zoning bylaws uh to the next

1:32:55meeting in hopes they contact the town.

1:32:59There may be some unforeseen

1:33:01circumstance. So, I'll make a motion to

1:33:03continue that hearing to the next

1:33:04meeting.

1:33:05>> Do I have a second?

1:33:06>> Mr. Chairman, I'll I'll

1:33:08>> I'm sorry.

1:33:09>> Did you want to speak on this matter?

1:33:10>> Yeah.

1:33:11>> Oh, I Let me do that. Is are Is there

1:33:13any um Are there any of Butters here

1:33:15that want to comment on this?

1:33:16>> Yeah. Sorry about that.

1:33:17>> We can Butter's comments. Go ahead.

1:33:19That'll save you from coming back for

1:33:20next time.

1:33:21>> Sorry.

1:33:27>> My name is Tim Anderdon. I live at three

1:33:29world street

1:33:31um right next door to them on the on the

1:33:33corner of Elm and Brook Street. Um first

1:33:37of all, I noticed that the the notice

1:33:39that was sent to us uh says that it's in

1:33:42the aquafer protection zone similar to

1:33:44the Duncan project. uh that doesn't seem

1:33:46to be listed on the agenda, but that was

1:33:47one of my concerns that being in this in

1:33:50this zone that they would be required to

1:33:52provide some sort of um fluid

1:33:55containment for the the gas and fluids

1:33:58from the cars uh like a floor drain to a

1:34:00oil water separator, tight tank or

1:34:02something to protect the aquifer and

1:34:04this the surrounding

1:34:06um environment. A second concern I have,

1:34:10which I emailed these uh beforehand, is

1:34:13uh some sort of a visual screen that

1:34:15would be required to to to shield the

1:34:18cars that will be stored on the property

1:34:20and the operations as well as sound

1:34:23protection, which I think is listed in

1:34:24the special permit conditions. they

1:34:26would need to provide uh soundproofing

1:34:29for the garage

1:34:31and also the property the zone the um

1:34:34excuse me the garage 2A on their

1:34:36application is just about right at the

1:34:39property line and it's heavily wooded so

1:34:41I was concerned about what kind of fire

1:34:43protection they would be required to

1:34:45provide being so close to the heavily

1:34:47wooded area

1:34:48>> and uh the neighbors and the last

1:34:50concern is if they if the special permit

1:34:53would allow uh vehicle sales which it. I

1:34:56didn't see that in the notice, but

1:34:58>> okay. Um well, what I can do is just ask

1:35:01the town to make sure for the next since

1:35:03it will be continued to make sure that

1:35:05it's not in the act of protection zone.

1:35:06It's I know it's general industrial, but

1:35:08we'll just double check that for the

1:35:09applicant or for the um concerned about

1:35:12I should say and uh we can duly note

1:35:14your concerns as far as uh noise, fire

1:35:17protection. Um, and I agree, you know,

1:35:20one of the things I I look at my members

1:35:22of the board here and I recognize

1:35:23they're all highly qualified in the

1:35:25particular areas of expertise. Mine

1:35:27happens to be the automotive industry.

1:35:29So, when these things come up, that's

1:35:30where I usually jump in and have my

1:35:32concerns about you know, waste oil

1:35:34management, how much uh, you know,

1:35:36liquids or concern what they're going to

1:35:37have. They're going to be recharging air

1:35:39conditioning units, all kinds of

1:35:41different things like that. Uh, in

1:35:42particular, how they're going to do

1:35:44spill management. Yes. So, that's

1:35:45something that I taken pretty serious,

1:35:48especially I know you have the

1:35:49sportsman's club not too far down the

1:35:51street with the water there and we have

1:35:53the aqua protection zone up on Route 20.

1:35:56So, I can definitely uh mirror your

1:35:58concerns with that.

1:36:00>> Thank you. Absolutely. Anyone else?

1:36:05Okay. Hearing none, seeing none. So,

1:36:06again, we have a request for a

1:36:08continuence for the 615 applicant uh on

1:36:12section 32612.

1:36:14Miss Roach has already submitted. Do I

1:36:15have a second?

1:36:16>> So, I'll second, Mr. Chairman, a

1:36:18one-time continuence

1:36:20>> with an explanation of why

1:36:24he wasn't able to show this evening.

1:36:26>> Okay. Do uh So, I have a uh

1:36:30excuse me, I have a motion and a cont.

1:36:33Do I have a uh vote on that matter? All

1:36:36in favor?

1:36:36>> All on proof. Yeah.

1:36:38>> I All in favor? I No. Okay. So, we're

1:36:40going to continue the 6:15 and that will

1:36:44stay open again also for public comment.

1:36:45So, if anybody has any questions or

1:36:47concerns, you can also address that with

1:36:48the town hall. So, we're on to the 620

1:36:50applicant Tracy McDonald requesting a

1:36:52variance for accessory use under section

1:36:543912

1:36:56and 3914 of the Alburn zoning bylaw for

1:36:59a special permit for home occupation

1:37:01under 3192 and 3194 of the Alburn zoning

1:37:04bylaw for 25 inwood road, map 31, parcel

1:37:0840. The subject property is located in a

1:37:10residential aquafer zoning district. RA

1:37:14not not aquifer. I apologize. RA zoning

1:37:16district.

1:37:20>> Okay. Um we have people that are you

1:37:23>> I am in a butter so I need to recuse

1:37:25myself.

1:37:25>> Okay. So Miss Roach is going to uh

1:37:28vacate for the is this is our last

1:37:29hearing. Mr. Roach is going to vacate

1:37:31for the rest of the meeting. And I

1:37:32believe Mr. Adameiac you must all do the

1:37:34same.

1:37:34>> Yeah. So, do you plan on staying for the

1:37:36rest of the meeting or you can also

1:37:37vacate if you'd like?

1:37:38>> I'll stay.

1:37:39>> Okay. So, uh I also bring up Mr. Sheay

1:37:43as a full voting member um to replace

1:37:46Miss Roach. So, you'll be active in this

1:37:49one, sir.

1:37:51So, do I have a motion to open the 620?

1:37:53>> Mr. Chairman, motion to open.

1:37:54>> Do I have a second?

1:37:55>> Second.

1:37:55>> All in favor?

1:37:56>> I I opposed hearing none. Seeing none,

1:37:59uh Mr. Shivik to you, sir. Again,

1:38:02>> good evening, Mr. Tetro, Mr. Chairman.

1:38:04uh fellow board members and and town

1:38:06employees. Thank you for having us uh on

1:38:08this application here for a variance um

1:38:11on the town zoning bylaw. My client is

1:38:13in a residence a situation and there has

1:38:17been a few meetings on this topic over

1:38:19the course of the last 6 to 8 months. Um

1:38:21we'd ask the court the court the board

1:38:23to keep an open mind um and and hear us

1:38:25through on our on our application.

1:38:27>> Okay. So I I'm assuming our butter is

1:38:31present. The rest of the audience must

1:38:32be here for this particular hearing. Um,

1:38:36so, uh, do we want to start with your

1:38:39butters? Are you ready to do your

1:38:40presentation or you were all set?

1:38:41>> Before we do, Mr. Chairman.

1:38:43>> Yes.

1:38:43>> If I if I may.

1:38:44>> You may.

1:38:45>> Just just a point of clarification and

1:38:46the applicant may well know. Um, but I

1:38:48also want to point to um our business

1:38:50building commissioner. So,

1:38:53I'm assuming that we're going to hear of

1:38:55substantive changes from the original

1:38:57application

1:38:59>> for this activity. Th this is um

1:39:03this is

1:39:04>> I mean I'll just plain speak. Why why is

1:39:06this application different than the last

1:39:08time this applicant was before us?

1:39:10>> Well, regardless of why it's different,

1:39:11we have the right to present it and

1:39:12that's what we intend to do tonight.

1:39:14>> I'm sorry, I didn't hear.

1:39:15>> Regardless of whether it's different, we

1:39:17intend to to have this uh application

1:39:19heard tonight. Um as is due process

1:39:21would allow. Uh to your point, um

1:39:24there's

1:39:24>> I'm not opposed to hearing it. I'd just

1:39:25like to know why it's different.

1:39:27>> Thank you. Thank you. I mean, there's

1:39:28just some substantial changes in in the

1:39:30in the process that my client engages in

1:39:32uh to try to mitigate traffic, noise,

1:39:35dog waste, property values, and any of

1:39:37the other issues that were raised by

1:39:38abutters at the last hearings.

1:39:41>> I'm sorry to make you bobble

1:39:43on the other side of the I appreciate

1:39:46your your Yeah. No, I have every

1:39:48intention of giving you an opportunity

1:39:49to to present um you know, why it was

1:39:51different, but that that does that does

1:39:53spark my curiosity and what would be

1:39:54different from the first application. I

1:39:56noticed that there's a variance on this

1:39:57application which wasn't present last

1:39:59time. Correct.

1:40:00>> I was um chairman of multiple boards,

1:40:02the personnel board in the town of last,

1:40:04the Moose Hill Water Commission, and a

1:40:05member of the select board. So I

1:40:06understand um how difficult these these

1:40:09uh hearings can be and I appreciate your

1:40:11um your position on that on that

1:40:13question. Uh so we we do prepare we are

1:40:16prepared to to illustrate the the

1:40:18benefits uh to my client and to the

1:40:20neighborhood of her application and the

1:40:22request for the variance. Um, we brought

1:40:25it as a special permit initially and a

1:40:27variance, but we whittleled it down to

1:40:29just the variance request. Uh, so that

1:40:31that'd be the the only difference from

1:40:32what we actually submitted.

1:40:34>> Okay. So, so it's not a special

1:40:36permanent of variance, it's just a

1:40:38variance this evening.

1:40:39>> I that's how it was advertised. That's

1:40:40where that's where we decided to

1:40:41proceed. Uh, we spoke to the assistant

1:40:43town manager about this uh at length and

1:40:45we had that discussion and that's the

1:40:47way we chose to proceed.

1:40:48>> All right. Very good. It's kind of like

1:40:49a middle ground there between the home

1:40:50occupation and the dogish 3.912 and 914.

1:40:54So, it's just trying to fit it in there

1:40:57and and and you know, ask for permission

1:40:59through the town.

1:40:59>> Understood. I will give you latitude,

1:41:01but I I can profess I don't like middle

1:41:03ground, but uh

1:41:04>> I appreciate that.

1:41:05>> But I but I will certainly keep an open

1:41:06mind this evening.

1:41:07>> And Mr. Tetro, to your point, um we

1:41:09would have the abutters speak first uh

1:41:12if if it pleases if it pleases the

1:41:13chair. And I just [clears throat] want

1:41:14to point out as well, we have several uh

1:41:17emails that we received in favor of

1:41:19this. Uh and we have a couple also that

1:41:22are uh not in favor, just for the

1:41:24record. So if any of the abutters would

1:41:26like to speak, we can have you come up

1:41:28one at a time. If you haven't signed in

1:41:30already, if you could do so, please, and

1:41:32then we can take your comments.

1:41:34If the comments are repetitive,

1:41:37um we ask that you kind of

1:41:40>> accept the fact that you've already been

1:41:41submitted. Yes sir.

1:41:44>> I wanted to speak but I was really

1:41:46interested in what the proposals will

1:41:50change.

1:41:52>> Okay. And we can have you speak. You can

1:41:54speak after as well. We won't restrict

1:41:55you. Go ahead, sir.

1:42:01>> Good evening. Uh my name is Tom Oaks. Uh

1:42:04my my wife and I live at 19 Inwood Road,

1:42:07three houses down from Tracy McDonald.

1:42:10In uh January 2025, we adopted Nova, a

1:42:14rescue dog from Tennessee. Uh knowing

1:42:16Tracy and recognizing her genuine love

1:42:19of dogs made us feel very comfortable

1:42:21having Nova spend time with her,

1:42:23socializing with Tracy's dogs and other

1:42:26dogs and her care. We'll always be

1:42:28grateful for the support and guidance

1:42:30that that you uh get. It means a lot to

1:42:33us. Uh as nearby neighbors, uh we

1:42:36understand and respect the concerns that

1:42:38have been raised regarding barking dogs.

1:42:40Many of many of us have in the

1:42:42neighborhood have dogs including us and

1:42:45banking barking is something uh we

1:42:48experience from time to time. From our

1:42:50perspective

1:42:52living just three houses away, the

1:42:53barking at Tracy's property has not been

1:42:55excessive or significantly different

1:42:58from what we hear from other dogs in the

1:43:00neighborhood, including our own. We also

1:43:03believe that is important to acknowledge

1:43:04the efforts Tracy has made in response

1:43:07to the concerns that were raised since

1:43:09the last meeting. Gail and I have

1:43:11noticed a significant reduction in the

1:43:13amount of barking coming from her

1:43:14property. To us, that demonstrates that

1:43:17Tracy listened to her neighbors concerns

1:43:19and took them seriously and made a

1:43:22genuine effort to address them. Our our

1:43:26our support for Tracy is based not only

1:43:28in our experience with her as someone

1:43:30who has cared for Nova, but also our

1:43:33experience with her as a neighbor. We

1:43:35believe that she provides a valuable

1:43:36service, operates responsibly, and has

1:43:39demonstrated a willingness to work uh

1:43:41with those around her. For those

1:43:43reasons, Gail and I fully support

1:43:45Tracy's application before the board. We

1:43:48believe she has made a sincere effort to

1:43:50balance the service she provides with

1:43:52being a responsible and considerate

1:43:54neighbor. Thank you for the opportunity

1:43:56to speak

1:43:59>> next. Yes, ma'am.

1:44:02>> Yes, please go ahead up. Have you signed

1:44:04in?

1:44:04>> Yes.

1:44:05>> Okay.

1:44:08The sheet that barriers

1:44:21you just give us your name and address

1:44:22for the record, please.

1:44:24>> Good evening. My name is Anne Cohen and

1:44:27I live at 20 Inwood Road in Auburn and

1:44:31I'm within shouting distance of Tracy.

1:44:35So, you know, we're kind of I'm kind of

1:44:37in a butter that way. I live almost

1:44:40directly across from um Tom. So we, you

1:44:45know, if he hears noise, I hear noise,

1:44:48and if he doesn't hear it, I don't hear

1:44:50it. But anyway, um what I did want to

1:44:54say to the board is I'm sure you've

1:44:57already got it. Um I have already

1:44:59submitted comments about this appeal in

1:45:02writing, but I have a few other little

1:45:05comments that I wish to add. Um, one

1:45:08thing that distresses me about this

1:45:10appeal is that I don't think things have

1:45:14should have risen to this level. Uh,

1:45:17Tracy McDonald is just trying to do what

1:45:20every citizen in this community does,

1:45:23make a living.

1:45:25Most soul entrepreneurs

1:45:28are of the homegrown variety. If their

1:45:31business is to succeed, it must fulfill

1:45:34a public need in order to attract

1:45:37customers.

1:45:39Tracy's dog walking service does exactly

1:45:42that. She fulfills a desperate need for

1:45:46people who work and wish to care for

1:45:48their dogs. Responsible, loving dog

1:45:52owners realize that their pets have

1:45:55needs beyond food and water. Dogs are

1:45:59incredibly social animals. They need

1:46:02exercise, stimulation, and companionship

1:46:06on a daily basis. Fulfilling these basic

1:46:10needs is very hard for many working

1:46:13people to do. That's why they turn to

1:46:16someone like Tracy, someone whom they

1:46:20trust and who they truly know cares for

1:46:24their beloved pets. A dog walking

1:46:27business as small businesses go is not a

1:46:32very intrus intrusive enterprise. It is

1:46:35not loud. It does not cause any

1:46:38disruptive traffic and generally blends

1:46:41in with the rest of the neighborhood.

1:46:44This is not the type of business you

1:46:46should be harassing.

1:46:48There are many people out there in town

1:46:52who believe that Tracy performs a vital

1:46:55service for them. If Tracy is not

1:46:58allowed to continue her business, many

1:47:01people will be extremely distraught and

1:47:04at a total loss for how to care for

1:47:09their pets.

1:47:11As a rule, most towns try to encourage

1:47:15and support local business. It's good

1:47:19for town revenue and fulfills a vital

1:47:22need for many residents. I do not

1:47:25understand the dustup that has plagued

1:47:28Tracy in trying to maintain a necessary

1:47:32and profitable business, one that she

1:47:35has worked very hard to build and

1:47:38maintain.

1:47:39Please allow Tracy to continue with her

1:47:42dog walking business if it is time to

1:47:46support small businesses in this town,

1:47:49especially when they aren't a nuisance

1:47:51to anyone. Thank you so much for

1:47:54listening. Good evening.

1:47:56>> Thank you.

1:47:58>> Whoever would like to be next, please.

1:48:05>> That's okay. Take your time.

1:48:14Um, hi. My name is Lisa Judkins. Um, I

1:48:17actually live in Milbury. Um, but I've

1:48:19worked in Auburn for the last three

1:48:21years. Um, and I've known Tracy for 10

1:48:23years and she has taken care of my dog

1:48:25for seven years. Uh, with the dog

1:48:27walking, um, I'm a single parent. I run

1:48:29a nonprofit and without her and her love

1:48:33for my dog and the safety she provides

1:48:35and the time I wouldn't be able to do

1:48:37the important work that I do. So I

1:48:41understand that there's lots of rules in

1:48:43every town. Milbury has similar issues.

1:48:46Um but I think her business is very

1:48:49important and vital to the town of

1:48:51Auburn and should be allowed to

1:48:53continue. Okay.

1:48:54>> Thank you very much.

1:48:55>> Thank you.

1:48:57>> Yes, ma'am. Go ahead.

1:49:03That's quite all right.

1:49:14>> Um, hi. I'm Kathy Collins. I live at 47

1:49:17Oldcat Road, which abuts Tracy in the

1:49:19back. Um, and I first want to say that

1:49:22Tracy's a great neighbor. I have no

1:49:24problems whatsoever. The noise has been

1:49:27much better since the last time we came.

1:49:29So my only concerns are what is the

1:49:32maximum number of dogs that you will be

1:49:34able to have in the yard at any time,

1:49:36including yours? And secondly, and this

1:49:39might be a little bit of a stretch, but

1:49:41does this variance continue if she were

1:49:43to leave or so if someone if they left

1:49:46and someone came in, would they be still

1:49:49allowed to do

1:49:51whatever kennel property whatever

1:49:53whatever services that might not be done

1:49:56in the way she's doing it? And I didn't

1:49:58know if that how those variances work.

1:50:01>> So again, that that's something that

1:50:02we're going to talk about during the

1:50:04course of the hearing here. And

1:50:05unfortunately, that's one of the issues

1:50:07we're going to have is a variance is

1:50:10permanent,

1:50:11>> right?

1:50:12>> It it just you can't make make

1:50:15exceptions to it. Okay.

1:50:16>> The way the law is written. So, it's one

1:50:18of the issues we're going to have to try

1:50:19to work through this evening. Okay.

1:50:20>> Uh and that the board will discuss.

1:50:22>> Okay. Mostly curious. Thank you.

1:50:23>> Absolutely.

1:50:31>> If there anybody else that wants to

1:50:32speak, if you haven't signed in yet,

1:50:33please feel free to come up. Sign in.

1:50:46>> There's another sheet.

1:50:48>> So, um Ken Kavanagh, I live in 43 Old

1:50:51Cart Road, so about two houses from

1:50:53Kathy diagonally behind. Um I guess some

1:50:56of I just had some questions as well. um

1:50:59one the first question that was asked is

1:51:00what is different from what was already

1:51:02declined before and why would be coming

1:51:06to a different decision now. So that's

1:51:09one. I know last time we were talking

1:51:11about a dog kennel. Now I'm hearing dog

1:51:13walking. I don't know what the

1:51:15difference is. If somebody's bringing

1:51:16the dog and they're reading left there

1:51:19to be walked, I don't know why that's

1:51:20different than a dog kennel that's

1:51:23taking care of the dogs for the day or

1:51:24doggy daycare. I'm not sure the

1:51:26difference between it. So I guess I

1:51:27wanted to understand that a bit more. Um

1:51:30and I did you just say the variance is

1:51:32permanent?

1:51:33>> Variances are permanent. Correct.

1:51:34>> Yeah, that that's part I would oppose

1:51:36to. Uh and again like many have said

1:51:39she's wonderful neighbor have absolutely

1:51:41no doubt about about great care she

1:51:43gives to animals. No one wants to stop a

1:51:46business. All we're saying is operate

1:51:48that business in a business district. If

1:51:51you open up a dog kennel, there are

1:51:52certain requirements to having space

1:51:55around you in certain zoned areas that

1:51:57are designed for that. And it's the same

1:52:00as if you wanted to open up an auto

1:52:01repair shop. You have to open it up in

1:52:04an area that allows it. not just because

1:52:05you happen to have a garage attached to

1:52:07your house and say I can fix a car. So

1:52:10that's that's my biggest thing and

1:52:11especially the permanence of it would be

1:52:13a concern to me because we specifically

1:52:15moved into a residential neighborhood.

1:52:18It does not have much cross traffic

1:52:20whatsoever. Basically, if you don't live

1:52:22in the neighborhood, there's no reason

1:52:24to come down any of the roads by us and

1:52:26they don't go to any place. They're all

1:52:28dead ends. And that's one of the

1:52:30appealing things the neighborhood was a

1:52:31lack of traffic, no businesses, and I

1:52:35would definitely be concerned about the

1:52:36permanence of it.

1:52:38>> Okay.

1:52:38>> Thank you.

1:52:39>> Anyone else?

1:52:41>> Yes, sir.

1:52:47>> Hello. I'm uh John Ga. I live at 26

1:52:51Inwood Road uh for the past 40 years.

1:52:55Lifelong resident.

1:52:57Uh

1:52:59my daughter was the one that was

1:53:00attacked, as you guys remember, uh by

1:53:05the dogs at Tracy's.

1:53:08Uh my daughter wanted me to say a few

1:53:12words.

1:53:14Uh, she wants me to say that she

1:53:16acknowledges that Tracy has apologized

1:53:19and has made an effort to make things

1:53:22safer,

1:53:24but doesn't want things to go back to

1:53:25the way they were before. She still has

1:53:29anxieties about walking down the street.

1:53:32Uh, and I have the same questions that a

1:53:36couple people have asked here. What what

1:53:38is the difference? What what we're going

1:53:40for here now? uh a daycare

1:53:44a daycare which was on the uh

1:53:48application is uh doggy daycare doggy

1:53:52walking and doggy daycare. Uh that

1:53:56requires kenneling.

1:53:58So we we need to know how many how many

1:54:00dogs are we going back to the escalating

1:54:04to 10 to

1:54:0715 whatever whatever it was before.

1:54:10uh and how they're going to implement uh

1:54:14regulations and overseeing what's going

1:54:18on there.

1:54:21>> Anyone else?

1:54:24>> Okay. So, I think before we go ahead to

1:54:26the presentation, I just want to talk

1:54:28about what the what a variance actually

1:54:30is here. So under 9.5

1:54:33um variance from a specific requirement

1:54:36of this bylaw including the variance

1:54:37authorized use not otherwise permitted

1:54:40in a particular zoning district except

1:54:42uses prohibited in section 37 may be

1:54:44authorized by the board of appeals. So

1:54:46we have to have under 9.5 the mandatory

1:54:50findings before the granting of any

1:54:53variance from the requirements of this

1:54:55bylaw. The board of appeals must spec

1:54:57must specifically find that and I've

1:55:00been corrected over the years because I

1:55:02always felt as though we could we could

1:55:04have certain numbers but they all have

1:55:05to apply. One is owning to the

1:55:08circumstances related to the soil

1:55:09conditions shape the topography of the

1:55:11land or structures and especially

1:55:13affecting such land or structures but

1:55:15not affecting generally the zoning

1:55:17district in which it is located. A

1:55:19literal enforcement of the provisions of

1:55:20this bylaw would involve substantial

1:55:22hardship financial or otherwise.

1:55:25two, that desirable relief may be

1:55:28granted without substantial detriment to

1:55:29the public good and without nullifying

1:55:31or substantially dergating from the

1:55:33intent and purpose of the bylaw. Um,

1:55:39I think those are pretty much the ones

1:55:40that I would cover for there. And then

1:55:429.6 six is really what I would consider

1:55:44the appropriate

1:55:47um

1:55:49well that's a different that's a

1:55:50different but I would I would argue that

1:55:52this is really more of a special permit

1:55:53than it is a variance because mo

1:55:55variances really apply to soil

1:55:57conditions topography of a land an

1:55:59unusually shaped lot those types of

1:56:02things it's not necessarily for

1:56:05picking apart a bylaw I guess if you

1:56:07will um but you want to hear the

1:56:08presentation first

1:56:09>> yeah no thank you Mr. Chairman, I I

1:56:11don't disagree. So, I'm I'm quite

1:56:12curious on why they approached this as a

1:56:14variance. So, I'm I'm eager to hear why

1:56:17this is different than their previous

1:56:18presentation and why the variance.

1:56:26>> Mr. Chairman, uh I'll proceed.

1:56:29>> Yes, please.

1:56:29>> Thank you very much. I appreciate the

1:56:30board's time and we appreciate the

1:56:32comments of the various abutters. Um my

1:56:35client, uh Tracy was before the board on

1:56:37a number of different uh occasions. Um

1:56:39we're here today and decided that

1:56:41instead of trying to appeal the cease

1:56:43desist letter that was received under

1:56:453.2.5 from the um building inspector

1:56:48that we decided it was appropriate to

1:56:50reapply uh and lay all the facts out on

1:56:52the table. So what I heard from various

1:56:56neighbors uh at the outset was that my

1:56:59client has taken appropriate measures to

1:57:02mitigate any of the impacts on the

1:57:04neighborhood. And if I watched the

1:57:05videos of the prior

1:57:08um hearings, there was various noise was

1:57:11an issue um as well as uh property

1:57:15values. So I'm not aware of any issues

1:57:17with property values. There's been no

1:57:18evidence shown that there's any negative

1:57:20impact on property values whatsoever. Um

1:57:23in terms of the actual variance, we

1:57:26think it's a home occupation type of

1:57:28situation. and we think it's a home

1:57:30occupation type of situation that

1:57:31doesn't I'm not aware that we applied

1:57:33for anything about a doggy daycare like

1:57:35those words I don't believe they came

1:57:36off of my uh keyboard or on this

1:57:39application in any way. Uh but what we

1:57:41were looking for is um permission from

1:57:44the board to allow dogs to be dropped

1:57:46off in the driveway and then walked um

1:57:49by my client. So it's a dog walking

1:57:51business. And

1:57:53since the last hearing that my client

1:57:57was a part of here, she's been walking

1:57:58them off the property, meeting off the

1:58:00property, walking off the property.

1:58:02She's implemented various uh safety

1:58:04protocol and including a fence,

1:58:06including the carabiners, which I think

1:58:08were at issue during the last hearing.

1:58:10She also obtained what are called bark

1:58:12boxes. And those are um

1:58:15electronic mechanisms that emit a

1:58:18vibration that when a dog barks, it

1:58:21stops them from barking. She's also been

1:58:23incredibly uh astute in not allowing the

1:58:26dogs, even her own dogs, to bark

1:58:28outside, bring them in immediately. she

1:58:30has gone out of her way to meet with

1:58:32various neighbors uh in in the

1:58:34neighborhood and address them door

1:58:37knocking and and asking them about their

1:58:39concerns. Um so uh the difference

1:58:42between last time and this time is a the

1:58:45application and I it was mentioned

1:58:47briefly there was an erroneous uh advice

1:58:50given by a uh

1:58:53a an agent of the town that

1:58:57prompted my client to apply for a 22 dog

1:59:00kennel license which is never what it

1:59:01was supposed to be. the animal control

1:59:03officer uh and that report was through

1:59:06appended to this uh request for an

1:59:08accessory use to the home um called for

1:59:11seven. So that's she wants to comply

1:59:14with that. She wants to um operate her

1:59:18business in a way that doesn't impact

1:59:20the neighbors. um you know and whether

1:59:23you know the issue of a special permit

1:59:24versus a variance I understand and I had

1:59:27initially

1:59:29um sought it either as one or the other

1:59:33cuz it's kind of it seems like there may

1:59:34be a little bit of a gray area there and

1:59:36I understand you know the topograph

1:59:37issue may not be the most onpoint um

1:59:40series of elements for this type of a

1:59:42request but I think uh it's it's tough

1:59:45to it's tough to

1:59:48say that a variance wouldn't be

1:59:50appropriate because it's an accessory to

1:59:51reuse to the home. And if I look at

1:59:543.9.1.4,

1:59:57you know, the keeping or raising of

1:59:58dogs, cats or other pets, breeding or

2:00:00sale of dogs. So, it's just like it's

2:00:02arguably maybe the keeping of pets, but

2:00:05she's not really keeping them there.

2:00:06They're just there on a temporary basis.

2:00:08There might be a couple of cars a day.

2:00:10All transactions occur within the

2:00:11driveway. She's gone out of her way to

2:00:12make sure that there's no impact on

2:00:14traffic. Dog waste is appropriately

2:00:16dealt with, but the dog walking occurs

2:00:18off the property. So the the my clients

2:00:22a willing to abide by whatever

2:00:24conditions the board deems fit to see

2:00:27that the

2:00:29neighbors are uh their concerns are are

2:00:32dealt with appropriately. Um I

2:00:34understand that the concerns especially

2:00:36of the neighbors who had the unfortunate

2:00:38incident um with my uh client's dogs uh

2:00:42a few years ago. I don't want to

2:00:43mischaracterize it in time but that's my

2:00:45understanding. It was it was a little a

2:00:47little bit um a little while ago. It

2:00:50wasn't incredibly recently. Was was it

2:00:53last year? Thank you. I'm sorry. I

2:00:54didn't want to mischaracterize it or

2:00:55mitigate it or minimize it in any way.

2:00:58So, um that I'm not going to say that

2:01:00something like that could happen to

2:01:01anybody. My client, I believe, explained

2:01:03to the board at a prior hearing that it

2:01:05was just something that got away from

2:01:06her and u she's taken various actions to

2:01:10secure the dogs and add additional fence

2:01:12so that nothing like that could ever

2:01:13happen again. So, what's different is

2:01:15the the um the application itself is

2:01:19different. My client was much better

2:01:20informed in what she was applying for.

2:01:22She's trying to comply with what the

2:01:23acco recommended. And I'm not going to

2:01:25say that the acco's

2:01:28um

2:01:29report was glowing, but it it seemed to

2:01:31check all the boxes in an appropriate

2:01:33way and make an appropriate

2:01:34recommendation that my client wishes to

2:01:35abide by. Uh in terms of non-compliance

2:01:38with that, we would expect the the the

2:01:40the zoning inspector to enforce it

2:01:42appropriately. um my my clients met with

2:01:46um all of the neighbors and asked them

2:01:48for their input and has tried to do

2:01:50everything she can to uh take those

2:01:52concerns uh into account and tailor

2:01:55things in a way that um and if you read

2:01:58the you know the kind of the brief that

2:02:01the the explanation that I provided to

2:02:05the board with the application I mean

2:02:07I'll just quote it she's open to any

2:02:08conditions the board sees fit to ensure

2:02:10smooth operation of a dog walking

2:02:11business from her home. This includes

2:02:13having neighbors inform her if they're

2:02:14having an event or something or they for

2:02:16a period of time they're they're making

2:02:18too much noise or but I think she's

2:02:20mitigated that. So, if there's anything

2:02:21creative that the board sees that could

2:02:23assist my client in continuing to do

2:02:25what she does for a living, um she

2:02:28definitely provides a a vital service to

2:02:30the community. People use her um and we

2:02:33don't think there's a substantial

2:02:35impact. We do appreciate the trauma that

2:02:36was inflicted on that on that instance,

2:02:38uh, but it's not something that has

2:02:40continued or existed prior to that

2:02:43incident. So although I'm not trying to

2:02:45minimize that from my client's

2:02:47perspective and trying to advocate on

2:02:48her behalf, we think that it was an

2:02:50isolated incident and she's gone out of

2:02:52her way. I mean, she's here today and

2:02:54her body posture, I think, tells you

2:02:56exactly, you know, how she feels. And

2:02:58I'd like to say too that um the

2:03:00assistant town manager and the uh the

2:03:02resource coordinator for the town has

2:03:04they've been very very helpful and

2:03:06everybody's been you know very nice to

2:03:07us during this process and we do

2:03:09appreciate that. We understand the board

2:03:11has a job to do and it has to do its job

2:03:13appropriately within its jurisdiction um

2:03:15as it sees fit. But we'd ask the the the

2:03:18board to allow my client to continue to

2:03:20operate this um and issue the variance

2:03:23and with any restrictions that it it it

2:03:25deems necessary and appropriate. uh to

2:03:27to mitigate any concerns that were

2:03:29raised by any of the abuters at at this

2:03:31meeting uh and any prior meeting.

2:03:35>> I'm gonna uh if there's no other

2:03:37abutters that want to comment again, I'm

2:03:38going to go ahead and turn it over to

2:03:39the board. Yes, sir. Go ahead.

2:03:41>> Just have one question.

2:03:43>> You have to approach the microphone,

2:03:44please, sir. Have to have it on the

2:03:47record.

2:03:51Just want to know uh how many dogs a day

2:03:56there's going to be

2:03:58>> maximum seven as the dog officer.

2:04:01>> Is that counting yours?

2:04:02>> Yes.

2:04:03>> Dogs?

2:04:05>> Okay.

2:04:05>> So, just for the record, the she stated

2:04:08it would be seven maximum per the dog

2:04:10officer.

2:04:14>> How long Oh, how long will the dogs be

2:04:17kennled there?

2:04:27So according to the report, the hours

2:04:29are between 7 and 3 for the the drop off

2:04:32and the maximum is seven dogs.

2:04:35So drop offs will be I will pick up

2:04:37dogs. I will drop off dogs. Some dogs

2:04:40will be dropped off, but it will be

2:04:41between the hours of 7 to three. They

2:04:43will be put in my car, seat belted. We

2:04:45will go to a walk location. and I will

2:04:47bring them back home and other dogs will

2:04:50be dropped off. I will walk them. I will

2:04:51bring them back home. So, it will be a

2:04:53going back and forth. Okay.

2:04:57>> So, so you bring them home?

2:05:01>> Some some dogs I will be bringing home,

2:05:03some some people will be picking up

2:05:04dogs. It depends on if they're in the

2:05:07neighborhood. Like Novas parents, I will

2:05:09drop off and pick up. They're three

2:05:10houses down. I have a client on old

2:05:13cart. I will drop off and pick up. It

2:05:15depends where they are and their work

2:05:17hours to accommodate

2:05:19pick up with kids back to school. So I

2:05:22will accommodate whatever their needs

2:05:24are but there is drop off pickup.

2:05:28>> Thank you.

2:05:35So I just again wanted to get a little

2:05:36bit of clarity on the difference from

2:05:38before because if you know it was

2:05:40mentioned that all the transactions are

2:05:42taking place in the driveway but now it

2:05:44sounds like dogs will be staying at the

2:05:45residence at for time periods because no

2:05:48one's going to come with a dog have you

2:05:50walk it sit in the driveway wait for you

2:05:52to come back from the walk and then

2:05:53drive home with it. So clearly the dogs

2:05:55are staying there which is back to being

2:05:57a kennel again for from seven to three

2:06:00at some level of point. I'm not opposed

2:06:03to to doing small business like this. I

2:06:06am opposed to the permanence of the

2:06:08variance that we we once we open the

2:06:11door to a business in this community

2:06:14that door never gets closed and this

2:06:17person may be doing it just as dog

2:06:19walking but if she sells it and the

2:06:21variance is there what stops that next

2:06:23person from being a kennel and we have

2:06:25no protection from that once it's

2:06:26approved so that's my my main concern is

2:06:29the permanence of it understood thank

2:06:31you very much for your comments yes sir

2:06:38Did you happen to sign in by chance?

2:06:40>> He did already. Yes. Uh Frank Thompson,

2:06:42uh 23 Inwood Road, direct neighbor to

2:06:44Tracy. Um obviously I will not, you

2:06:48know, go over too much. I am very

2:06:51approved of what Tracy does. I think

2:06:53she's been a great neighbor. Previously,

2:06:54my grandparents lived at the residence

2:06:56for the last 50 years. Um I guess I

2:06:59would like to kind of know a little bit

2:07:00more about like the variance and maybe

2:07:02this can mitigate some of the concern

2:07:03amongst that. Um one of the things we

2:07:05heard in previous discussions tonight is

2:07:07that with some of these variances and

2:07:10special orders, there is rules that

2:07:12would carry over. So if there is any

2:07:14type of rules that are set about this

2:07:17kennel or this dog walking business

2:07:19being in operation, wouldn't those carry

2:07:20over to any subsequent businesses that

2:07:22would fall under the same variance at

2:07:24that address or would they not? Well, so

2:07:27yeah, that's the that's the issue with

2:07:28the variants. Again, they're permanent.

2:07:30They don't and they're they're very

2:07:32difficult to remove, if not impossible.

2:07:34>> Yeah. So, I'm not asking about whether

2:07:36or not the variance can be removed or

2:07:37not. If there is rules set in place

2:07:39around the etiquette of that business in

2:07:43that variance, would those not carry

2:07:45over to any subsequent businesses? Yes,

2:07:48we could condition. You can condition a

2:07:49variance. But again, our experience has

2:07:52been when variances go to court, varian

2:07:55the the the variance itself supersedes

2:07:58any conditions as where a special

2:08:00permit,

2:08:01it expires with the uh applicant. Let's

2:08:04just happen to say she moves. That

2:08:06special permit then literally

2:08:08disappears. It's no longer active. It's

2:08:09no longer available at that that

2:08:11address. And the conditions have much

2:08:13more weight to them.

2:08:15>> Gotcha. So the conditions will only

2:08:16carry really with the initial person who

2:08:19sets up the variance. Those don't

2:08:20continue over to the next.

2:08:22>> So correct, a special permit is only for

2:08:24the the one person that's receiving it.

2:08:26A variance continues at that address in

2:08:29perpetuity, forever. It's we we have one

2:08:32particular business in town that we've

2:08:33been dealing with for many many years.

2:08:35I'll just give you an example. We won't

2:08:36mention the business that it's been

2:08:38around since the 1960s

2:08:40and it it continues to operate. um

2:08:45with with great concern of the abutters,

2:08:48but there's really very little or

2:08:49nothing we can do about it. So that's

2:08:51what the issue with the variance is for

2:08:53me.

2:08:53>> All right. Awesome. Thank you.

2:08:56>> Anyone else? I'd like to be able to turn

2:08:58it over to the board for their

2:08:59questioning if I could please. Okay.

2:09:01Vice Chair Marin to you, sir.

2:09:02>> I'm going to reserve, Mr. Chairman.

2:09:04>> Mr. Cussy.

2:09:05>> Yeah. I uh So these dogs are going to be

2:09:08there from 7:00 till 3:00.

2:09:10>> You want to go ahead back up, please?

2:09:16I think it depends, Mr. Cussy, and thank

2:09:18you for the question. I think that my

2:09:20client um has kind of a varian a very a

2:09:23variation, for lack of a better term,

2:09:25with her operation where sometimes

2:09:26they're picked up off property and

2:09:28dropped off off property, and sometimes

2:09:29they're dropped off at the property,

2:09:31there for a very short period of time,

2:09:33and then either brought home or the the

2:09:35individual will come back and pick up

2:09:36the dog. So, I'm not trying to to men a

2:09:39yes or no question, but I am trying to

2:09:41just say that it it varies.

2:09:43>> Now, are they going to be walking the

2:09:45dogs in the neighborhood?

2:09:46>> I want to be very clear. Excuse me.

2:09:51>> I just want to be very clear, and it was

2:09:53stated in our application, that no dogs

2:09:55are walked in the neighborhood, period.

2:09:57They're taken off site. They're never

2:09:59walked in the in the in the

2:10:00neighborhood. Uh and my client makes it

2:10:02a point of that and she's on advice of

2:10:04counsel made uh an exceptional point to

2:10:06make sure that that hasn't happened

2:10:08since the last the last meeting, but

2:10:09it's never been her intent or her

2:10:11operation to do so. To my understanding,

2:10:14>> dogs will be in the yard during the day

2:10:16or will they be indoors? I mean,

2:10:17>> there's a fenced off I I included a few

2:10:20pictures with the application. I think

2:10:21that the board does have um those

2:10:23pictures. I'm not sure if they're uh

2:10:25illustrative enough, but they uh there's

2:10:27two yards there. They're both fenced in

2:10:29so that if dogs do have to stay there

2:10:31for a short period, they're in one of

2:10:32the fence yards. And if for some reason

2:10:34they aren't getting along or whatever

2:10:36the issue may be, there's there's a

2:10:38separating fence that my client will be

2:10:40able to put those dogs in to mitigate

2:10:41any issues of barking or or anything

2:10:44else that could be a problem.

2:10:49>> Thank you.

2:10:50Um, so there'll be a total of seven dogs

2:10:54maximum at the property at one time,

2:10:56>> including my client's own dogs.

2:10:58>> How many dogs does she have?

2:11:00>> Three.

2:11:01>> Okay. So, there would be a maximum of

2:11:03four outside dogs.

2:11:05>> And that would be a maximum. That's not

2:11:06going to be, you know, four dogs at all

2:11:08times. No.

2:11:09>> Okay. All right. That's all I have for

2:11:12now. Mr. Shay,

2:11:14>> just a couple questions and I'll go

2:11:16easy. [laughter] Promise. Um,

2:11:20in your letter to the board, it states

2:11:23that

2:11:26you pick up dogs at individuals

2:11:28properties or have the dogs dropped off

2:11:32at your residence and then you take them

2:11:34for a walk.

2:11:36Um,

2:11:39wouldn't it be easier

2:11:42and a lot less hassle

2:11:44just to go and pick up the dogs and take

2:11:47them for a walk

2:11:49>> instead of having the residents uh, you

2:11:52know, the people bring them to your

2:11:53place?

2:11:54>> My client has been able to operate that

2:11:56way since the last hearing and since the

2:11:58cease and desist order went out uh,

2:11:59regardless of the section that it was

2:12:00issued under on the advice of council,

2:12:02that's what she's been doing. So, if the

2:12:04board were to issue it on a very limited

2:12:06basis, my client would be accepting of

2:12:08that and we'd be appreciative of that.

2:12:10Of course, she'd like to be able to

2:12:11offer her clients the convenience of

2:12:13being able to drop it off uh to drop off

2:12:15a dog. Um, but we also understand that

2:12:18the board has a job to do and to

2:12:19balance, you know, the issues in the

2:12:21community. So, my client would be open

2:12:23to that. She's operated the business

2:12:24that way. Uh, but it does limit her

2:12:26ability to service some customers. Um,

2:12:29and we'd ask the board to consider that.

2:12:31>> One more question. you get paid for your

2:12:34services.

2:12:35>> Correct.

2:12:36>> Thank you.

2:12:39>> Okay. Um, so my only comments are I I

2:12:43feel as though that the

2:12:47the request for a variance is outside

2:12:49the scope of a variance and my my view

2:12:52of what this application is for

2:12:53particularly with the permanence. I do

2:12:55however recognize the effort of the

2:12:57applicant who has made substantial

2:13:00changes to her business model.

2:13:02uh in an effort to keep the business

2:13:04open and I do believe she's also

2:13:06providing a

2:13:08fair service to the community as well.

2:13:11Um

2:13:15I find this to be more of a special

2:13:17permit issue that we can put conditions

2:13:20on should the board see it to approve

2:13:22rather than a variance because of the

2:13:24permanency of it. Um

2:13:28and I'm not, you know, I'm again I'm

2:13:29just putting my two cents in. I think

2:13:31that

2:13:33the prudent move if we if the board is

2:13:36considering approving it or not, I don't

2:13:38know. But I think the best course of

2:13:40action would be to again continue this

2:13:43um so they can sort out their paperwork

2:13:44and make sure that they're applying

2:13:46properly because I think the climb for a

2:13:48variance is a very tall very very very

2:13:52steep climb.

2:13:53>> Definitely.

2:13:54>> Um I I think and again you know she's

2:13:57she's made efforts to change her

2:13:59business model. She's made efforts to

2:14:00modify what she does at her property.

2:14:02She's guaranteed that she's not going to

2:14:04be walking pets in the neighborhood and

2:14:07she's hired an attorney to continue this

2:14:09on. I think at the very least the board,

2:14:12I think, should recognize the fact that

2:14:13there was a substantial change in effort

2:14:15made to hear the hearing.

2:14:19>> Again, that's just my comments and I'd

2:14:21like to refer back to you all.

2:14:22>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

2:14:25I was just I just had a question on uh

2:14:273.9.1.2

2:14:29two uh a home occupation other than

2:14:32retail sales should be conducted

2:14:35entirely with dwellings

2:14:37I don't so right so it's stating

2:14:52conducted entirely

2:14:55>> and that's another good point I mean

2:14:57yeah 39

2:14:59>> I I mean, that's what they're coming in

2:15:00with. Uh,

2:15:01>> Mr. Chairman, if I may jump jump in

2:15:02briefly,

2:15:03>> please. Go ahead.

2:15:04>> Yeah, thank you. We did apply for the

2:15:06special permit um and or the variance

2:15:08depending on how the board saw it. So, I

2:15:10mean, we've been discussing special

2:15:11permit issues all night. It's checked

2:15:13off on the application. Um, when I talk

2:15:15about it in my brief to the board, we're

2:15:17talking specifically about a variance

2:15:19andor special permit. So, we'd ask the

2:15:21board to just consider it as a special

2:15:22permit rather than continue it. We do

2:15:24believe our paperwork is in order. was

2:15:26advertised as a special permit too. So

2:15:29in the agenda

2:15:31>> just if I may sh may

2:15:33>> so

2:15:37it wasn't andor. It was a variance for

2:15:41an accessory use

2:15:44and a special permit for a home

2:15:46occupation.

2:15:47Mr. Cussy's correct and that the home

2:15:49occupation language stipulates it to be

2:15:52inside the home. So I don't think it

2:15:54falls in that category.

2:15:57I would agree with the chairman. This is

2:16:00the rigor of a variance um is is not

2:16:03going to be met here. Uh this this will

2:16:05not reach the climb of a variance. Uh

2:16:07but in addition to that um I was

2:16:10certainly open to hear um from this

2:16:13hearing to the last

2:16:15what the substantial difference was in

2:16:17this application. And I must admit that

2:16:20I don't see a difference. I think there

2:16:22have been modifications, but this is

2:16:24still

2:16:26dressed as a request for a kennel

2:16:31operation and dog walking, and that's

2:16:33what was before us before. That's what

2:16:35we litigated before. So, this is not a

2:16:38substantial difference or substantial

2:16:40change than the first application. The

2:16:43language of a variance is certainly

2:16:45different, but what we've been asked to

2:16:47weigh on the business that's before us,

2:16:50in my view, Mr. Chairman, is not a

2:16:53departure from what was originally

2:16:54requested and originally denied.

2:16:59>> Okay, I appreciate those concerns

2:17:02and and to me,

2:17:06I mean, again, I I'm just looking at the

2:17:08table of uses here and I'm just going

2:17:09through as quickly as I can to find

2:17:11things. and it 32510 veterinary care

2:17:15shelter or kennel would be the only

2:17:17thing that I really would see fit at

2:17:21least again I'm just doing a very quick

2:17:23read through here

2:17:30>> yeah because it goes on a

2:17:34>> yeah respectfully Mr. Chairman I mean

2:17:35that that and that I I I appreciate your

2:17:38effort I mean that that's not what's

2:17:41It's not what's been proposed.

2:17:43>> I mean, I I I I think we've given great

2:17:45latitude this evening um for this

2:17:47hearing,

2:17:48>> but what hasn't been clear to me is why

2:17:51we should consider this a substantial

2:17:52difference than what the first

2:17:54application was. And so before we even

2:17:58get to the challenge of a variance,

2:18:00I would suggest that I don't know that

2:18:02this hearing should on its merits be

2:18:05considered based on the fact that it's

2:18:08not different than the first the first

2:18:10proposal.

2:18:12>> All right. Um

2:18:14Mr. Cy, you have any comments on the

2:18:15vice chair's

2:18:18>> um position?

2:18:19>> So what do we recommend that they

2:18:20continue?

2:18:21>> Is that what you you're thinking?

2:18:23>> I wouldn't recommend that they continue.

2:18:24I would recommend a withdrawal.

2:18:26>> A withdrawal

2:18:27>> because I don't see this as an

2:18:28application that we would entertain as

2:18:31being different than the first time this

2:18:32applicant came before us and asked for

2:18:34the same thing. It's dressed

2:18:36differently. It's the same business.

2:18:40>> Okay?

2:18:41>> And that business was denied.

2:18:47And I'm willing to keep the public

2:18:48portion of the hearing open if the uh if

2:18:51the applicant's attorney has any

2:18:52comments, but but that's where I land. I

2:18:55don't think this is substantially diff

2:18:56there's not a substantive change to this

2:18:59application than what was before us

2:19:00previously for us to consider this a

2:19:03substantial change which in my view

2:19:06would have closed the door on this for

2:19:08two years since the last hearing when we

2:19:12voted it down.

2:19:13>> Okay. And I I'm open to be challenged or

2:19:17if if I if I have this incorrectly. Um I

2:19:20know that we've got a great deal of

2:19:21talent in the audience with uh uh Mr. uh

2:19:26assistant town manager if if if I uh if

2:19:29I'm over my skis here on this. Um but I

2:19:32but that's and the go the board would

2:19:33have to weigh in on whether or not they

2:19:35feel that this is different enough of an

2:19:37application. But this is the same

2:19:39activity. It's the same business.

2:19:41They're kenneling the dogs

2:19:43for a period of time during the day.

2:19:45That's what was asked for previously

2:19:49and that was denied.

2:19:51And respectfully, this will not make the

2:19:53challenge of this will not make the

2:19:55climb of a variance.

2:19:56>> Right.

2:19:57>> At best, this is a special permit that I

2:20:00don't believe should should be heard

2:20:01this evening.

2:20:04>> Okay, Miss Bush.

2:20:06>> So, I agree with the variance. I don't

2:20:08think it meets the requirements for a

2:20:09variance. Um, I would have to watch the

2:20:12last meeting, but my recollection was it

2:20:14was there were more like doggy daycare

2:20:17um customers where they were being

2:20:20dropped off and they're suggesting that

2:20:22she's taking them off site, not walking

2:20:24them in the neighborhood. Um, so I mean,

2:20:29especially if she's willing to just pick

2:20:31up dogs and walk them off site, I think

2:20:34that would be a difference. not walking

2:20:37them. And I again, I would have to see

2:20:38the meeting again because I don't

2:20:40remember it exactly, but I think there

2:20:41were more dogs staying on the property.

2:20:44I think it was more than seven. And I

2:20:46think there were overnights and I don't

2:20:47think they address this, but I don't

2:20:49think the plan is to have them for

2:20:51overnights at this point. They can speak

2:20:54to that. I think it said in the brief it

2:20:56was specifically 7 to 3. So, there's no

2:20:58overnights and they're not really a I

2:21:02guess I don't but I guess there's more

2:21:05off-site walking. So, it could be

2:21:08I don't know how substantial

2:21:11substantially different it would have to

2:21:13be. Um, but if she's just leaving her

2:21:16property and taking dogs, picking them

2:21:18up at their own house and bringing them

2:21:20back and not bringing them back to her

2:21:22house, that would be different. And I

2:21:24think they suggested that they were open

2:21:26to that as well. So,

2:21:31>> do you have any further comments, Mr.

2:21:32Chay? I tend to agree with uh the vice

2:21:35chair

2:21:37um 100% on what he's saying is to table

2:21:41us until the next meeting and uh see if

2:21:44anything has been straightened out.

2:21:47>> Okay. Uh

2:21:51>> I I think what we have here is kind of a

2:21:53split board. I think like Miss Bush and

2:21:55I agree that might be some substantial

2:21:57changes to the application and I think

2:21:59that we have a couple that say that

2:22:00there isn't. I think maybe the best

2:22:02course of action and again I'm just

2:22:04suggesting I think taking Mr. Mr. Sha's

2:22:08um comments under consideration would be

2:22:10let's get the definition of a kennel.

2:22:12What defines it? I think it um

2:22:16you know may or may not be

2:22:19>> it's five or more dogs, right?

2:22:20>> Five or more dogs. But what are we is

2:22:22there a time frame for storage?

2:22:25Hope that's not Is that my truck? I hope

2:22:26not.

2:22:30It was.

2:22:31>> [laughter]

2:22:32>> It's time to go home.

2:22:34>> My alarm must have went off.

2:22:35>> Mr. Chairman, I think we've got some

2:22:37some guidance that

2:22:38>> Oh, yeah. Please go ahead.

2:22:40[clears throat and cough]

2:22:44>> Chair, I don't know if this is going to

2:22:46clarify things or not. Uh, but just on

2:22:49the matter of the previous application,

2:22:52it was incorrectly

2:22:55submitted upon advice of previous staff

2:22:58and incorrectly advertised. So the

2:23:00primary use of this property is as a

2:23:02residence. So the use table doesn't come

2:23:05into play here.

2:23:07>> Uh so this so this why it kicks over to

2:23:10the accessory uses and the only

2:23:12accessory use that fit the bill so to

2:23:15speak was the homebased business. The

2:23:19issue at the time was how much of that

2:23:21activity was taking place inside the

2:23:24residence which as was correctly pointed

2:23:26out our zoning by limits it to indoor

2:23:31activities. Under the previous

2:23:33conception

2:23:35my understanding and I think other

2:23:36people's understanding was it was a more

2:23:38elaborate doggy daycare situation with

2:23:41dogs being in the yard frequently as

2:23:45opposed to going off site. So, um, so

2:23:50just just in terms of the the different

2:23:53kinds of uses, the the use table is

2:23:55helpful and provides some guidance as to

2:23:57what's appropriate in certain

2:23:58neighborhoods, but the primary use of

2:23:59this property is a residence. And so

2:24:03it's it's a question of what so the

2:24:06question I think and board and council

2:24:09could correct me is

2:24:12whether the special permit aspect to it

2:24:15of whether the homebased business based

2:24:16on the new information that the dogs are

2:24:18primarily being

2:24:22not the activity proposed is not

2:24:25happening actually on the residents in

2:24:28in the house. It's happening elsewhere.

2:24:30So is that indoor is so is the indoor is

2:24:36the homebased business indoor because

2:24:37the tra the business transaction is

2:24:39taking place inside and the walking is

2:24:41taking place elsewhere. That's maybe

2:24:43something for the board to parse out. Uh

2:24:46relative to the variance um again not to

2:24:49throw a tremendous curveball into the

2:24:51situation here uh in July the state

2:24:55changed the rules relative to variances.

2:24:59uh we are still seeking guidance from

2:25:01council on what the implications are. Uh

2:25:03but my understanding is is that the uh

2:25:07variances I think as was pointed out

2:25:08before varian traditionally require like

2:25:10a four-point test of different

2:25:13characteristics topography shape etc. Uh

2:25:17the state I believe has made that so

2:25:18that was mandatory. Now I believe the

2:25:21state has made that optional

2:25:23and so the board may consider it but

2:25:26they don't have to consider it whereas

2:25:28in the past they had to consider those

2:25:30options. We're still seeking guidance

2:25:32because the intent of that was relative

2:25:34to housing because apparently in other

2:25:36parts of the state people were trying to

2:25:37get variances for housing and we're

2:25:39getting shot down. So the state trying

2:25:41to increase housing I and other planners

2:25:44are still trying to understand the

2:25:45nuances of what's has been enacted. uh

2:25:48but variance the guidance is still there

2:25:52but it may not be those findings may not

2:25:54be as required as they were before but

2:25:57they may be characteristics that could

2:26:00be considered. We're still seeking

2:26:02guidance on that part. Uh but the

2:26:04variance part the reason I believe

2:26:06council may have applied for variance

2:26:08was that

2:26:10on that point of the indoor versus

2:26:12outdoor use on the home occupation.

2:26:15Um, I don't want to misspeak that, but I

2:26:17think that was because it is a gray

2:26:19area. I think that's why they applied

2:26:21for special permit versus variant. So,

2:26:23uh, so my opinion is a different

2:26:25application because it was wrongly done

2:26:27last time. It doesn't mean that the

2:26:28board has to grant it. It doesn't mean

2:26:30that the board has to be in favor for or

2:26:32against it. It just means procedurally

2:26:34we had to do it a different way because

2:26:36the way it was done previous was that

2:26:38the entire property was primarily

2:26:40becoming a kennel, which it was not. It

2:26:42was still going to be a residence. So

2:26:44there's some slight nuances there.

2:26:46Probably doesn't help the board make

2:26:47their decision, but just at least it

2:26:48clarifies a bit of the the lanes the ZBA

2:26:52needs to sort of travel in on this one.

2:26:54I I I would I would suggest.

2:26:56>> Oh, okay. So that makes sense for the

2:26:58>> It does. Can I ask a follow-up question

2:27:00before we let you sit down? Sorry.

2:27:02>> Thank you. So wi with the with the new

2:27:05guidance on on uh variances um I'm

2:27:08assuming that if the criteria has become

2:27:11optional um that the fact that a variant

2:27:13sticks with a particular property uh for

2:27:16perpetuity I expect that that has not

2:27:18gone away. Is that correct?

2:27:20>> That's one of the questions I don't

2:27:21think I have an answer to right now.

2:27:24>> Can we go on the assumption that that it

2:27:26does in fact land with the property

2:27:28under perpetuity? My understanding was

2:27:30and I think I in for on relative to a

2:27:32different matter uh special permits may

2:27:35or may not be conditioned on ownership

2:27:38or variances do not depend on ownership

2:27:40at all and run with the land. That was

2:27:43my understanding and that's still my

2:27:45assumption unless I learn something

2:27:46different.

2:27:48>> Wow. Thanks for pulling us back into the

2:27:49guardrail.

2:27:50>> Well done.

2:27:52So, with the new information,

2:27:55I would be inclined to,

2:27:58and again, I'm I'm only speaking for

2:28:00myself. Um, I would be inclined to

2:28:03consider a special permit with a limit

2:28:05of four dogs

2:28:07that they are not walked in the

2:28:09neighborhood if that, again, this is

2:28:11just what the board approves. Um, and we

2:28:15could limit them to say no longer than

2:28:18four hours

2:28:20each dog. You know, again, it could

2:28:21overlap. It could be one dog gets

2:28:23dropped off at noon time, stays till

2:28:243:00 or 4:00. One dog gets dropped off

2:28:27at 8 a.m. stays till noon. You know what

2:28:29I mean? But each dog should be limited

2:28:31to a 3h hour or 4 hour window period.

2:28:33And I know it's it's difficult to

2:28:34enforce, but it's the question of having

2:28:37the ability if if a butter is unhappy

2:28:39with what's going on, then it gives

2:28:41authority to the um animal control.

2:28:44>> Will she be able to inspect?

2:28:46>> And that's the other part of it with

2:28:48>> without a kennel license.

2:28:49>> Without a kennel license. And if let's

2:28:50just hypothetically say she continues to

2:28:52operate, there's nothing that they have

2:28:54the right to enter the property and see

2:28:56anything. If we grant it the special

2:28:59permit with the licenses, the the dog

2:29:01officer or the animal control officer

2:29:03has the ability to visit the property

2:29:05frequently.

2:29:06>> But she's not asking Miss Chairman for a

2:29:08kennel license this evening.

2:29:09>> No.

2:29:11>> Okay.

2:29:12>> That's what I mean.

2:29:13>> I don't disagree again, but we can

2:29:15>> and I and I know that you're solution

2:29:16based, but but she's not asking for

2:29:18that. She's asking for a home occupation

2:29:21and a variance.

2:29:22>> So then why don't we suggest a

2:29:25continuence sort

2:29:27>> please correct me please. [laughter]

2:29:29Please

2:29:30>> again I'm trying to work out I I

2:29:32recognize that a majority of the people

2:29:33here I know there's some against it. The

2:29:35majority of the people here are for it.

2:29:37I recognize the value of the business

2:29:38itself as far as dog walking. You know

2:29:40you have a dog at home. You have most

2:29:42people that have to work outside of the

2:29:43house these days. Uh I think it's a it's

2:29:46a great service to provide. It's a way

2:29:48to make income. So, I recognize all

2:29:50those things, but I I think the

2:29:51paperwork has to be sorted somewhat, and

2:29:54I think we have to check with the animal

2:29:56control to make sure that they're going

2:29:58to have access to the property as

2:30:00needed.

2:30:01>> So, uh I will not speak for animal

2:30:02control on this, but my understanding is

2:30:05there's a two-part process to this. Uh

2:30:07there is a kenno license that will have

2:30:10to be obtained from the town clerk's

2:30:12office, which is signed off on also by

2:30:14the animal control officer. So I think

2:30:17if I understand correctly, Miss McDonald

2:30:18has been waiting the results of this

2:30:21procedure. So the kennel l the kennel

2:30:23license is triggered because there would

2:30:25be more than five dogs on the property,

2:30:28>> right?

2:30:28>> Uh well up up to seven is what's being

2:30:31proposed, but I think the trigger on our

2:30:32land is five. Uh so uh that's that's so

2:30:38they would this the board this board

2:30:40would not be issuing any kenno license.

2:30:42the town clerk with in conjunction with

2:30:45the animal control officer would issue

2:30:46the kennel license even though we have a

2:30:48kennel use in our zoning table.

2:30:52>> But Mr. Chairman, if I may,

2:30:55holistically, the kennel license is what

2:30:57we shot down last time, which is

2:31:01consistent with my earlier comments of

2:31:04this is not a change. I I will not well

2:31:11I would again suggest again that what

2:31:14was proposed in January was not a

2:31:16kennel. It was a home business that

2:31:19involved dogs and so staff guided it

2:31:22towards a kennel application but again

2:31:25the primary use it can only be one

2:31:26primary use on a property. the primary

2:31:28use of the property is a residence and

2:31:31so uh the kennel uh we have accessory

2:31:34language as you know under 9 whatever uh

2:31:379.4 before that has the conditions of

2:31:40different animal thresholds that was

2:31:42then changed in last October. So which

2:31:46had changed the numbers slightly. So

2:31:48that's that's that's why that is again

2:31:51may not change the end result but we

2:31:55couldn't deny a kennel because it wasn't

2:31:56a kennel. It was a home business. And I

2:32:00think to point to add to that is I think

2:32:02the town evaluated the application and

2:32:05determined if I could speak on that um

2:32:09that it would do substantial change to

2:32:10allow it to come back before the board.

2:32:16>> Mr. Chairman, we could entertain

2:32:17another.

2:32:17>> Yes, go right ahead. Please sir, we

2:32:19haven't closed the hearing yet. So

2:32:20>> I appreciate it. So, one of the things I

2:32:22would like to ask is if we're talking

2:32:23about continuences or not continuences,

2:32:25special permits is can you at least vote

2:32:27on the variance tonight because that's

2:32:30the permanence of it. They can always

2:32:32apply for a special permit, I'm

2:32:33assuming, and you can always continue

2:32:35the special permit concept, but at least

2:32:38the variance would allow us to know

2:32:39whether or not there's a permanent

2:32:41change to the property. And that feels

2:32:44to me like we should be able to vote on

2:32:45that and then decide the other aspect

2:32:47later. As far as being a kennel, not a

2:32:50kennel, they've already heard that they

2:32:51put up multiple sets of fences to keep

2:32:53dogs separated. That sounds like a

2:32:55kennel. There's a purpose for putting up

2:32:58those fences. If the walking's happening

2:33:00off the property,

2:33:03then I'm not sure why we need a a

2:33:05business on the property at all. If

2:33:07we're picking up dogs away from the

2:33:08property, walking dogs away from the

2:33:10property, the property doesn't need to

2:33:12be involved and no one's trying to stop

2:33:14the dog walking business. that can

2:33:16continue if

2:33:17>> I don't disagree with you. I I see the I

2:33:20I feel like it's muddled and that's why

2:33:21I have a interest in making a

2:33:23continuence effort

2:33:25>> is because I think that we I think there

2:33:27is substantial change but I think the

2:33:29substantial changes need to be clarified

2:33:31a little bit better

2:33:32>> right and if we approve a permit for

2:33:34seven to five to three whatever it is

2:33:37>> I don't know how it could possibly be

2:33:40enforced to know how long a dog is there

2:33:42or how many dogs you know that's all

2:33:44that's right and I agree

2:33:45>> I'm not opposed to the business I'm

2:33:47against wonderful neighbor loves the

2:33:49dogs and plenty of people in support

2:33:51that use their services because a great

2:33:54it's a great service. Not not disputing

2:33:56that.

2:33:56>> And I I completely agree. Again, I was

2:33:58just putting that out there to try to

2:34:00come up with some solutions for the

2:34:01situation.

2:34:05>> Well, of course, you're wrong, Mr.

2:34:06Chairman, but [laughter]

2:34:08it is it is not a substantial difference

2:34:10in the first the first application.

2:34:12We're we're splicing hairs and we're

2:34:14dressing it up in a different way. Um

2:34:16but I wouldn't be opposed to um

2:34:18certainly voting on the variance um so

2:34:21that we can bring this to a close.

2:34:23>> Okay. So do I have a motion to close the

2:34:25public portion of the hearing?

2:34:26>> I'm going to give the applicant any

2:34:28opportunity to speak given that he's

2:34:30poised.

2:34:48Uh nothing nothing to add. I mean we've

2:34:49already gone over Mr. Delakila did a

2:34:51great job kind of um enumerating the the

2:34:54differences that that happened and the

2:34:57fact that my client had been erroneously

2:34:59informed by the town previously a town

2:35:01employee to apply for a 22 dog kennel

2:35:05license which is what was shot down

2:35:06initially. This is uh a different

2:35:09situation. We're looking for a variance

2:35:10for a home occupation. And these appear

2:35:11to be completely different concepts. So,

2:35:14um you know, we would say that that it's

2:35:16absolutely different. My client's open

2:35:18to whatever conditions u the the board

2:35:22feels appropriate and a couple of the

2:35:24board members have uh seem to have um

2:35:28ideas along the line of what my client

2:35:30has in mind uh in terms of walking the

2:35:33dogs off property. She still has to run

2:35:35the business from there. So, we'd ask

2:35:36the the board to if they're going to

2:35:37vote down the the variance, which it

2:35:40seems like there's a you know, the

2:35:41temperature on the variance isn't isn't

2:35:43isn't too warm, that we approve a

2:35:45special permit which was requested uh

2:35:47for the home occupation. And uh no one's

2:35:50no one's kenneling dogs, no one's

2:35:51keeping them there or boarding them. Um

2:35:53so, I mean, we talk about the definition

2:35:55of kenneling. Uh I think, you know, a

2:35:57temporary drop off, which we discussed

2:35:59earlier tonight about, you know, about a

2:36:00sniff spot. We don't we don't really

2:36:02think that that's necessarily regulated.

2:36:05Hey, thank you.

2:36:06>> So, double uh I think we've had enough

2:36:08comments on do we have any Oh, go ahead.

2:36:09>> I think we're just at the end.

2:36:13>> Again, Mr. Chair, Paul Deo, assistant

2:36:15town manager. Just to potentially lend

2:36:17the boards some additional guidance. uh

2:36:20if if you were to vote, just be

2:36:23cognizant of uh if you're going to

2:36:27approve one or deny one, continue one,

2:36:30make sure to take the motions

2:36:32individually. If cuz if for example, I'm

2:36:34just putting on a scenario. If the

2:36:36board's temperature is to not grant the

2:36:38variance uh but wants to quote unquote

2:36:41continue uh the special permit whether

2:36:44they want to if you want to continue the

2:36:45hearing you you have to I'm just making

2:36:49sure if we want to continue the special

2:36:51permit hearing

2:36:53we have to continue the special permit

2:36:54hearing separately than denying a

2:36:56variance. Correct.

2:36:57>> And if the board might you may also

2:37:00decide to close the hearing on the

2:37:01special permit and wait till the next

2:37:03meeting to make your decision. So, how

2:37:05you make that motion depends on whether

2:37:08or not the public would be able to weigh

2:37:09in again on one

2:37:14application or another. Just just

2:37:16suggesting that the board make sure we

2:37:18make clear motions so that way we don't

2:37:19hang ourselves up or hang up the

2:37:21applicant.

2:37:22>> No, I appreciate that. Thank you. Okay.

2:37:24Um, do I have a motion to close the

2:37:27public portion of the hearing?

2:37:28>> Chairman, motion to close public portion

2:37:29of the hearing.

2:37:30>> Do I have a second?

2:37:30>> Second.

2:37:31>> All in favor?

2:37:32>> Any opposed? Hearing none. Seeing none.

2:37:34All right, we'll go around one more

2:37:35time, Vice Chair Marin.

2:37:36>> Okay, so I I think I've made my position

2:37:38clear on this.

2:37:39>> Um, and so I won't belabor or or be

2:37:43repetitive, but one of the topics that

2:37:45came up, albeit briefly this evening, it

2:37:47came up heavily in the last hearing, um,

2:37:50is under under this applicant's care,

2:37:53uh, the substantial

2:37:56substantial damage that was done to

2:37:59someone in the neighborhood with this.

2:38:01And so there's been a great deal of

2:38:03affidavit testimony submitted for this

2:38:06applicant's character, how she proceeds,

2:38:08how she conducts her business, but I'm

2:38:10not willing to take off the table that

2:38:12under her responsibility

2:38:14um this girl's life was changed. And so

2:38:17that that needs to be a factor. If we

2:38:19condition a special permit for certain

2:38:22hours of operation or how she conducts

2:38:24her business or she does it off site off

2:38:26the property, we don't have any teeth on

2:38:30control of that. Now, I'm not suggesting

2:38:32it'll be nefarious,

2:38:34but I'm saying that we don't have

2:38:35control mechanisms that's going to lock

2:38:37it down to make sure that what we've

2:38:38told the public is going to happen there

2:38:40is going to happen because we don't have

2:38:43a policing effort that's actually going

2:38:45to do that.

2:38:48Understood.

2:38:50>> I'll leave it there, Mr. Chairman. Thank

2:38:51you, sir.

2:38:52>> All right, Mr. Cussy.

2:38:53>> Yeah. My only issue here is that uh home

2:38:57occupation other than retail sales

2:38:59conducted conducted entirely in the in

2:39:03with the dwelling.

2:39:05>> I don't know how you get around that.

2:39:09The dogs are going to be outdoors uh in

2:39:11kennels.

2:39:12That's that's just my one.

2:39:16>> I think the way we get around that is

2:39:18condition it that the dog walking has to

2:39:20be offsite. She has to go and the

2:39:22business is conducted in our house like

2:39:26scheduling the appointments and

2:39:27everything. So that would still require

2:39:28a special permit for a business. But I

2:39:31think I guess the only way to get around

2:39:34it is saying you'd have to do it

2:39:36offsite. And I know we don't have teeth

2:39:38to enforce that, but we don't have teeth

2:39:40to enforce any of our special permits

2:39:43for home occupations. So

2:39:46dogs are going to be there in the

2:39:48kennel.

2:39:48>> If they're not, that's what I'm saying.

2:39:50If we say that they she has to go pick

2:39:53them up at a different site, walk them

2:39:56off site and leave them off site and

2:39:58does not bring them back to her house.

2:40:00>> Yeah. Then she doesn't need a permit at

2:40:02all.

2:40:02>> Well, I think she would if she's running

2:40:04a business.

2:40:04>> Oh, she's charging. Okay,

2:40:08that makes sense. Yeah, [clears throat]

2:40:10>> I kind I kind of agree, you know, go

2:40:15pick up the dogs, walk them in a

2:40:17different location, do not come back to

2:40:19your house with them, bring them back to

2:40:22where they belong. I see this go on

2:40:24across town all day long

2:40:27>> in my own neighborhood and whatnot. and

2:40:32then that eliminates a lot of problems

2:40:34for everybody,

2:40:35>> right?

2:40:36>> You know, I I I honestly think that's

2:40:39the best solution. Um, like I said, I I

2:40:42I see this in my own neighborhood. I see

2:40:46it in other towns. Uh, I know people

2:40:50that do it

2:40:51>> and they don't bring dogs back to their

2:40:54homes, you know. They go out, they even

2:40:56do petsitting. They go out and they they

2:40:58petit for a couple of hours. Mhm.

2:41:00>> in the owner's home. You know, the dog

2:41:03owns something.

2:41:04>> Mhm.

2:41:04>> And that eliminates all this problem.

2:41:07The The biggest problem I see put the

2:41:10variance on this is now at some point

2:41:14they're going to sell a house,

2:41:15>> right?

2:41:15>> And it has this variance locked in

2:41:18there. What does that do to the other

2:41:21property values?

2:41:22>> Mhm.

2:41:23>> Okay.

2:41:23>> Yeah. Understood.

2:41:25>> So, that's that's where I feel off.

2:41:28>> Okay. I don't have any I I made my

2:41:30comments so I don't have anything

2:41:31further to add to it. So, um, what I'll

2:41:34do is I'm going to go ahead and read

2:41:35again. So, we have the 620pm applicant

2:41:37Tracy McDonald requesting a variance for

2:41:39accessory use under section 3912 and

2:41:423914 of the Auburn zoning bylaw and a

2:41:44special permit for a home occupation

2:41:45under section 3912 and 3914 of the

2:41:48Auburn zoning by at 25 inwood road, map

2:41:5031, parcel 40 subject property is

2:41:53located to the residential RA zoning

2:41:55district. So, do I have a motion for the

2:41:58first one for a variance accessory use

2:42:00under 3912 and 3914?

2:42:03>> Make a motion to deny.

2:42:04>> All right, we have a motion to deny. Do

2:42:06I have a second?

2:42:06>> Second.

2:42:07>> All right, we'll do a roll call vote.

2:42:08Vice Chair Merin,

2:42:09>> deny.

2:42:10>> Mr. Cussy,

2:42:10>> I.

2:42:11>> Miss Bush,

2:42:11>> deny the variance.

2:42:13>> And Mr. Sheay votes to deny and I vote

2:42:15to deny. Uh, second one is the Auburn

2:42:17zoning bylaw special permit for a home

2:42:19occupation under section 3912 and 3914

2:42:22of the Auburn zoning bylaw 25 inro road

2:42:24map 31 parcel 40 subject property is

2:42:27located in the residential zoning

2:42:28district. Do I have a motion?

2:42:30>> Make a motion to deny.

2:42:32>> Do I have a second?

2:42:34>> I deny.

2:42:35>> All right, we'll do a roll call vote.

2:42:36Vice Chair Marin,

2:42:37>> deny.

2:42:38>> Mr. Cussy,

2:42:38>> deny.

2:42:39>> Miss Bush,

2:42:40>> I approve.

2:42:41>> You approve. Mr. Chair,

2:42:42>> deny. All right, and I vote to deny.

2:42:44It's going to be a split vote anyway.

2:42:46So, I I wish we could work out better

2:42:48for that, but that's how it's going to

2:42:50stand this evening. Do I have a motion

2:42:52to close the hearing?

2:42:52>> Mr. Chairman, motion to close the

2:42:54hearing.

2:42:54>> Thank you very much. This concludes all

2:42:56of our hearings this evening. Um, we

2:42:58just have some administrative

2:43:00responsibilities to take care of and

2:43:01we'll close the meeting. So, we have

2:43:04decisions for approval for the applicant

2:43:07Linda Lucino requesting a special permit

2:43:10for kennel at 399 Oxford Street. We have

2:43:12approval of Lisa Corey of Pabco and

2:43:16approval for 224A Sulford Street LLC

2:43:20requesting a variant. So, we have three

2:43:22to sign and all depends if you voted on

2:43:24those or not. You just pass them right

2:43:26down. Thank you.

2:43:42This one for you.

2:43:43>> Feel I mean I was feel

2:43:46>> the writer's crib. [laughter]

2:43:49>> You just got to get a little

2:43:52two for you.

2:44:03>> Three for you. There you go.

2:44:05>> And let me see. So we have the three

2:44:07decisions that we are signing. We have

2:44:09the minutes from 71626 to accept. Do I

2:44:12have a motion to accept the minutes as

2:44:14submitted?

2:44:14>> Mr. Chairman, motion to accept the

2:44:15minutes as submitted.

2:44:16>> Do I have a second?

2:44:17>> Second.

2:44:17>> All in favor?

2:44:19>> Any opposed? Hearing none seeing none,

2:44:20the minutes are accepted. Our next

2:44:22meeting is 91726.

2:44:25And do I have a motion to adjurnn? Mr.

2:44:27>> Chairman, motion to adjurnn. Do

2:44:28>> I have a second? I

2:44:30>> All in favor? I.

2:44:31>> Any opposed?

2:44:33Hearing none, seeing none. Thank you

2:44:34very much.