2026-10-05 - Government Operations Committee

00:27All right, we're gonna be live.

00:31>> Live.

00:32>> Yep.

00:33>> Okay. Uh, welcome to the Government

00:34Operations Committee. It is 6:20 p.m.

00:37I'm the chair, Michael Beck. Joining me

00:39on the committee here is Councelor Fish,

00:42Councelor Malor, Counselor Dean,

00:44Councelor Walker. Also joining us at the

00:46table uh is councelor Carson and

00:49councelor Foon and we have a full agenda

00:52tonight. Uh coming to the table now is

00:54city clerk Lisa Goodwin to talk about

00:56the proposed amendment to the special

00:58amusement permit policy.

01:00>> Good evening. Um this change would

01:02eliminate the requirement for the public

01:05hearing at the council meeting for

01:07audible special amusement permits. It

01:09will with retaining um a provision in

01:12the ordinance that if there is an issue

01:14with a certain business that there are

01:16problems, the person having problems

01:18poke and not paying their taxes,

01:20whatever that that problem might be,

01:22then it would come to the council for a

01:24public hearing.

01:28>> Any questions on that?

01:31Counc

01:32>> without the public hearing, would it

01:34still come to council for approval? No.

01:37So, it wouldn't come at all? No. It

01:38would just be done provided there were

01:41no if you like all the other business

01:43licenses that we have it would just be

01:45approved once we receive all the

01:47approvals from the other departments

01:48then we would approve it

01:52>> questions.

01:56So, um, this actually might be a

01:59question for the city solicitor, um,

02:02about the changes because I just had

02:04questions about, um, if we do this, it

02:07looks like we might leave some, at least

02:09on what's proposed here, there might be

02:11some conflicts we'd have to still

02:13change. Uh, and I just wanted to ask a

02:16couple of questions about that. Uh, for

02:19example, you know, we for 6117,

02:22it talks about how these these uh

02:25amusement permits have to be approved by

02:26the city council. Um, and I'm just

02:29wondering if that's something we'd have

02:30to change to also phrase a mechanism for

02:33the city clerk to approve it. Um,

02:35because that's the one thing I guess I'm

02:37seeing is missing is for example 6120 is

02:40there's just no mechanism for the clerk

02:42to do it. And I'm wonder that's

02:43something we also have to amend just to

02:46make sure that this is the direction we

02:47want to go. Um that we also say that in

02:50addition to the city council, the city

02:53clerk can can do that uh approval.

02:58>> It sounds like that is something that

03:00you would want to want to put in there.

03:05>> Okay. Um I mean I made I made some notes

03:09here that you know I I can share but I

03:11mean I guess it comes down to if this is

03:13the direction council wants to go uh is

03:16just having to revisit these other

03:18surrounding um section just to make sure

03:20we cover all the the conflict because

03:22again the rest of it just talks about

03:23council approving uh with the approval

03:26of city council is just putting in there

03:28that the city clerk can also approve.

03:32That's all I that's all I had.

03:37Councelor Flyn,

03:38>> thank you. I'm not on this committee,

03:39but I guess I like I I trust our um city

03:44staff to approve these, but I'm kind of

03:47thinking that it would be nice to at

03:49least know the ones that are coming up

03:52in case we are aware of any issues as

03:56counselors.

03:58um you know because there have been

04:01some of these facilities that have had

04:02ongoing problems in the past and I would

04:06hate for something to just go ahead and

04:08get approved and then there are

04:11continuing issues and and maybe they you

04:14know maybe city staff raised it but

04:15maybe they didn't and I don't know I

04:17guess I'm just thinking it would be good

04:19to know in advance. I mean, I I think

04:21it's a good idea because every time we

04:23have a public hearing on these, we waste

04:26so much time just opening the the

04:28hearing, closing the hearing, waiting

04:29for people to come up, and we very

04:31rarely, if I've never seen anyone

04:33testify at one of those since I've been

04:35on the council. So, like I I think it

04:37could save us significant time. But, you

04:40know, if there ever was an issue with a

04:43particular establishment, I would just

04:45like to know in advance that that was

04:46coming up so we could raise that.

04:51comforting.

04:52>> I would be comfortable having it taken

04:53out of the the city council portion, but

04:55I do think that we should have a listing

04:57of who has applied and and who is being

05:02sometimes

05:04we don't always know what's going on. It

05:06would be nice to have that.

05:08>> I'd like to have some guidance if you're

05:10going to do a listing because once they

05:12apply, we have 15 days to turn it

05:15around. So, if I sent out a listing to

05:17you and I didn't hear back for 20 days,

05:20then we're not staying in the

05:23guidelines.

05:25>> I don't even know if we would need to

05:27respond, but just to have it documented.

05:30>> Okay.

05:31>> Would be my opinion.

05:34>> Council,

05:35>> yeah, I would agree with that. Like if

05:36we don't [clears throat] respond at all,

05:37then you move forward with it. But that

05:40way we do just get a heads up in case we

05:43do have an issue. If we miss that,

05:46that's on us.

05:48>> Counc.

05:49>> Um, I agree. Um, I don't think we really

05:52need to take it up on on council.

05:54However, um, it's nice that there is an

05:56opportunity for the public in case

05:58there's something we're unaware of, but

06:00I think if we're on notice that these

06:02are coming up and intending to be

06:03approved and that was somehow a notice

06:06that was also public, that would kind of

06:07be the public notice as well. And

06:10otherwise, you know, it's um up to the

06:14clerk and and the manager and and it

06:16already says if there's been other

06:17issues uh that from police or fire that

06:20have notified, then it comes probably

06:22back to us for discussion. But I'm I'm

06:24fine with with it with notice given to

06:28counselors and making that notice public

06:30so that the public still has an

06:31opportunity.

06:35>> Any other question?

06:37I'm not sure we need to have a list or

06:39need to know if the chief of police and

06:42the fire department and code enforcement

06:44doesn't have any problem. I think if we

06:46had a problem that would be a personal

06:48problem and I think it's irrelevant.

06:54>> Well, I'm thinking that it should be

06:55public notice who is

06:59being permitted. I mean, isn't that part

07:02of transparency?

07:04as far as the state's concerned.

07:11>> Well, I just say just from a from a

07:13neighborhood standpoint, you know, you

07:15there has been over the years there's

07:16been a couple of license that come up

07:18that the public, you know, surrounding

07:20it had just been like it's too noisy.

07:22These are the problems. And so that gave

07:24council a chance to put some

07:25stipulations on that particular license.

07:28Like that would be the one area I would

07:31see just you know making sure we're not

07:32[clears throat] taking the public's

07:34input completely out of it if it's a in

07:36their view as neighbors a nuisance

07:39property. Uh at least so they have the

07:40opportunity to at least contact council

07:42council you know contact a decision

07:44maker to say here's what my experience

07:46has been. Um, so that would be just my

07:50caveats to to doing this. But other than

07:52that, you know, I'm all for the

07:54streamline. You know, it's previous

07:57counselor said that, you know, we do

07:58spend a lot of times opening and empty

08:00public hearings and nothing comes to

08:03comment on it.

08:05Any other questions?

08:09Um, given that I guess and I'll share

08:12the note I made um and I can we can talk

08:15more about it.

08:16there's more changes that need to be

08:17made to make this happen just so that it

08:19takes out the conflict. Um, I'm

08:21wondering the best path forward would be

08:24to to bring this back to the next gov

08:26ops with updated changes

08:32or or do we think we want to make, you

08:34know, a recommendation to full counsel

08:36and have a what comes before us for full

08:39reading to have the I don't know what

08:41the what the the time frame is how

08:44quickly we want to do this.

08:46>> I there's no urgency in doing it. I

08:49mean, we can make some changes and bring

08:50them back in the next.

08:52>> Okay.

08:54Any objections to that or can I

08:56entertain a motion on that?

08:58I would move that we um postpone this in

09:02order to amend

09:06the proposal

09:08and stipulations

09:12that make sense

09:14that we have discussed.

09:20>> We have a motion and we have a second.

09:22Any doubt?

09:26Okay. Now I'll come back to the next

09:27couple

09:29>> question.

09:31The amendment would be to make it

09:32uniformly consistent so that 61-7

09:3761-20

09:39uh are more consistent with the rule

09:41change in that uh the um counselors are

09:45just given notice and such notice will

09:47also be given publicly and those are

09:50those the just to be clear those are the

09:52revisions we're looking for. Yeah, just

09:54to make sure it's thorough all the way

09:55through because like you said, all these

09:57different sections of it of the city

09:58council. Um, so we're just making sure

10:00that there's a mechanism for the city

10:02clerk to also do the issuance and

10:04decision.

10:07>> Okay.

10:08>> Thank you.

10:08>> Thank you.

10:10>> All right. Well, that moves us on to the

10:12second item, an order authorizing a

10:14subcontract with Northern Light Mayo for

10:17substance use and tobacco prevention

10:19services as part of the main prevention

10:21network. can join us at the table is

10:23public health director Jen Gunnerman.

10:30>> Hi, good evening. Um, thisou that's in

10:34front of you, this order that is in

10:36front of you [clears throat] is renewing

10:37basically anou contract that we've had

10:39with Northern Light Mayo for a very long

10:42time. This funding comes through the

10:44main CDC. this funding is provided to

10:47the public health district and so we

10:50apply for the district um and in order

10:53to be able to meet the needs of um the

10:56whole district we do a subcontract with

10:59Mayo to cover the uh piscatquist there's

11:02no funding from city dollars that go to

11:04support thisou

11:08any discussion from counselors

11:12councelor fish

11:13>> this is annual because We Yes, we've

11:15been here before.

11:16>> We have been here before. Yes.

11:18>> And we will be here again hopefully.

11:20[laughter]

11:23>> Other questions, comments, discussion.

11:27And you're looking for a recommendation

11:29for to go to council,

11:30>> please.

11:32>> Okay. I'll entertain that motion.

11:34>> I move staff recommendation.

11:37>> A motion.

11:38>> Second.

11:38>> And a second. Do we have any doubts?

11:43Okay, that's going to go to full count.

11:45Uh, moving on to number three, a resolve

11:47authorizing the city manager to accept

11:49and appropriate $823,851

11:52for the Nourish Main Rural Nutrition

11:55Education Program for the University of

11:57New England for fiscal years 2027 and

11:592028.

12:00>> Yeah. So, as you may recall, our health

12:03department used to get funding to do

12:05SNAP education. When that money went

12:07away at the federal level, we ended our

12:10program. We let our staff go and then

12:13the state of Maine along with many other

12:15states in the country received money

12:17called the rural health transformation

12:19program. Um that was millions of dollars

12:22that came to the state of Maine that are

12:24sort of being carved up in different

12:26ways um as part of the big beautiful

12:28bill. The state decided that they wanted

12:31to revive the infrastructure around

12:33nutrition education um and build upon

12:37that. So the state funds the University

12:40of New England, the University of New

12:42England then funds entities again along

12:45the public health districts. Um we are

12:48actually quite excited about this

12:49program because SNAPED has some very

12:52strict criteria around it on who you

12:54could actually serve. This one is has a

12:57little bit less criteria which means we

12:59can serve more of the community. And in

13:01talking with our program staff just last

13:04week, this program is looking to serve

13:06more adults, older adults, particularly

13:08in that sort of food is medicine um uh

13:13uh model.

13:16Um and so this funding is to support

13:18staffing, supplies, materials

13:21um as well as an indirect rate.

13:26>> This come from Fish.

13:27>> Um

13:29this is a great program, but I I also

13:32know with food shortage, is this all of

13:36the money have to be uh strictly for

13:38education and supplies to do with

13:40education and nothing um toward actually

13:44acquiring food products. That's correct.

13:46It is for staff time. Some of the things

13:49that they talk about is how to eat on a

13:51budget. You know, some of the

13:53conversations are if you have to go to a

13:54food pantry, here's the foods that you

13:56may want to lean towards. It's not an

13:58unrealistic program where we say eat

14:00your five fruits of vegetables without

14:01understanding that the context right now

14:03is really hard for people.

14:11>> So I just had a question. So uh how do

14:13you find referrals for this program?

14:15Like how do you re you know realize who

14:17you have to educate?

14:18>> Um so this is going to be happening in

14:20many different ways and the program is

14:21still launching in some ways. So, um,

14:24our staff will be working with community

14:25partners to do cooking classes, to do

14:28education. Um, and we're still building

14:30on sort of the infrastructure that was

14:32provided in SNAP ed. So, it's less of an

14:34individual model and it's more sort of

14:36in a systems model. So, we'll be working

14:38directly also with um the healthcare

14:41systems here.

14:42>> Okay. I mean, just throwing another like

14:44for example, you know, if staff's

14:46working with somebody who's going

14:47through an abatement, they're like,

14:47"Hey, we happen to notice that you know,

14:49there's probably some food insecurity

14:50here. There's other things going on. you

14:52may benefit from this. They could

14:54potentially refer to public health.

14:55>> They could. Yes.

14:56>> Okay.

14:58Any other questions? Council Meer,

15:01>> I'm just curious. Uh the funding for the

15:03programs began when?

15:06>> So the funding from the program began

15:10where are we? We're in the fall. You had

15:12already approved

15:14um for the sort of first six months of

15:16the programming. And so this is for 2027

15:20and 2028 for going forward. So I had

15:23brought to you a resolve. Oh my gosh, it

15:26seems like a really long time ago. Um to

15:29approve when we got the initial sets of

15:31funds.

15:32>> So I guess my question is if we approved

15:35for the year for the fiscal year 26 or

15:39>> Yes.

15:39>> So well what's the big rush to fulfill

15:4327 and 28?

15:44>> Well, we have to submit budgets. We have

15:46to get work plans in place. That

15:48timeline is set by the University of New

15:51England and the federal the state of

15:53Maine and the federal government. So we

15:54work with their timeline to make sure

15:56that we get all these things in place.

15:57>> Okay. So the funding we got we approved

16:00earlier. We provided the funding and

16:02they're reimbursing us.

16:03>> No. So the rural health transformation

16:06grant has been in the state of Maine for

16:08maybe a year now, maybe a little bit

16:10less than a year. when they first

16:12allocated that money to UNE and then to

16:16us that was back in I don't quote me but

16:19it might have been back in the spring

16:21I had already brought a a resolve to you

16:24to approve the budget so we have already

16:26received the funding for fiscal year 26

16:30and we've used that funding to hire

16:32staff

16:36>> any other question any other comments

16:39[clears throat] Walker

16:40>> yes I was wondering in the the year

16:422025, the 266 adults in Ponamscott in

16:47Piscat West counties, do we know how

16:49many in Ponamcott that actually is? And

16:52did the program

16:54um when they taught participants how to

16:58stretch food dollars and make health

17:00choices, was that program

17:02um in this um did we reach out to like

17:06our the grocery stores around? But I

17:08vaguely remember a program being offered

17:11where they would go and learn how to

17:13cook meals through a program and then

17:16they would if they finish these classes

17:18then they would get like a Hannenburg

17:20gift card or a shot gift card. Is this

17:22part of that? And so I'm particularly

17:26wanting to know more about Ponobscott

17:27and less about Scatquist because I'm

17:29concerned about our residents here.

17:32>> Yes. And that data that's provided here

17:34was from the SNAP education that was a

17:36little bit more limited. Um I can

17:39provide data on what we did in Ponobscot

17:42County with [clears throat] that SNAP

17:43education. Um and then we'll keep you

17:46regularly updated on the numbers for

17:48this program going forward.

17:50>> Thank you. Any other questions,

17:53discussion?

17:56Counc

17:56>> just one quick question. when when

17:58you're giving these cooking classes,

18:00which kitchen are you utilizing to do

18:02this?

18:04>> Well, sometimes it's cooking classes,

18:05sometimes it's just nutrition education,

18:07and sometimes there's not even really a

18:09kitchen needed, like it's using hummus

18:12and crackers and fruit, and so sometimes

18:14you don't even really need a kitchen or

18:16sometimes it's taught with a crockot.

18:18Um, if it's at a school, maybe a kitchen

18:21was used. So, it depends upon the

18:23environment in which the classes are

18:25being taught. Any

18:30other discussion?

18:32This need also needs a recommendation

18:34from Yes, please.

18:35>> I'll entertain a motion.

18:41>> I would move to um accept and appro

18:44approve the appropriation of $820,859

18:48for the Nourish Main Rural Nutrition

18:50Education Program from the University of

18:52New England to move to full council.

18:57We have a second. Any doubt?

19:02>> Seeing none, this is a recommendation of

19:04the committee. Okay, that brings us to a

19:07point on the opioid settlement funds

19:09discussion. The director has a memo uh

19:12that we reviewed the director speak.

19:15>> So what I did is I just provided sort of

19:17a highlevel overview about sort of what

19:19are the options that you could take at

19:21this time. Um, so what I did at the

19:24beginning is I provided kind of three

19:26different examples of how opiate

19:28settlement fund decisions were made in

19:30the state of Maine. There was plenty of

19:33others and I I provided you even with a

19:35link to the MOS center who talked who

19:37provides really an outline of of how

19:39funding happened. So the first model is

19:42the Augusta model which is the one that

19:44Bangor decided to follow last time where

19:46there was an advisory committee was an

19:48RFP process and funds were allocated.

19:52There's the Rockland model which is kind

19:54of interesting. You know, Rockland um

19:56also received opiate settlement funds.

19:58[clears throat] They did something a

19:59little bit different where they

20:01conducted community workshops. Um the

20:03MOS center helped with that to provide

20:06information about the opiate settlement

20:07funds and they determined sort of their

20:09priority categories where they had about

20:11three or four of and then they did an

20:14RFP process and then I'm not quite sure

20:17what happened between the RFP process

20:19but then what happened is with the sort

20:21of finalists they actually put it out

20:23for a full community vote. Um and so

20:26they provided a link, the community

20:28voted on what they thought were um the

20:31best programs to fund.

20:33Then there's the Portland model and as

20:35you know Portland is the other location

20:38with a local health department. Um they

20:41did something different in terms of they

20:43had their health department had their

20:46staff develop recommendations for how to

20:48use the funds. Those recommendations and

20:51when staff put it together they talked

20:53with their community partners. they

20:54talked with um overall community

20:56members. Those recommendations were

20:58presented to Portland's Health and Human

21:00Services and Public Safety Committee.

21:02So, just like our gov ops committee and

21:05then those recommendations were um

21:08presented as part of a regular city

21:10council meeting as an order or resolve

21:12that allowed for public comment at that

21:14time. And then those recommendations

21:16will also be passed by the city of

21:18Portland's council. I don't have the

21:21link here, but I did have I do have a

21:23link to what that process looked like.

21:25So, they made decisions around funding

21:27their needle redemption program, uh,

21:30funding towards a dayace, funding

21:31towards project hope, and there might

21:34have been one more.

21:36So, what I just offered as sort of

21:38throwing something out there was that we

21:40could offer kind of a hybrid or a

21:43combination of those models where we

21:45could have a working group facilitated

21:47by my department. you can conduct

21:49community workshop. I know that

21:52Ponobscott's Opiate Settlement Fund is

21:54going to be doing a um survey. So, we

21:56can leverage the findings from that. Um

21:59we can use that information. We can

22:02provide recommendations approved by the

22:03working group that we are we are working

22:06side by side with, provide that to city

22:08council on specific funding strategies

22:11and then issue an RFP as um appropriate.

22:15I provided a link and then I just

22:18provided here also is Johns Hopkins

22:20provides this beautiful guidance that I

22:22provided a link to sort of the nine core

22:25abatement strategies. Um this is really

22:28an easy read. So if anyone takes a look

22:31at it, I thought it was provided some

22:32really nice guidance um in in you know

22:36really honing in on where some of the

22:38most effective strategies are. Um

22:42I also want to sort of call out I know

22:44that we've talked a lot about recovery

22:45and treatment rehabilitation but um also

22:49you know that that focus on prevention

22:52[clears throat]

22:52and then the last thing I just noted is

22:54you know I think we're at this sort of

22:55pivotal point where we don't have them

22:58over million dollars that we had about a

23:00year ago and for this for you all to

23:03consider you know do you want to do what

23:06you did last time and make these smaller

23:08funding or do you really want to take a

23:10step back and think where do we want to

23:13invest in the long term to make

23:15significant impact and so this is just

23:19me throwing some things out here for you

23:21all to consider

23:23>> all right discussion council [laughter]

23:25>> thank you I'm not on this committee but

23:27in like I definitely like the hybrid

23:30model because I I really do think that

23:33the public is going to want to weigh in

23:34on this and I think that would be really

23:36good to get that information um and then

23:38I would um personally be in favor of

23:42doing something bigger because it

23:45doesn't seem like the smaller awards

23:47have had a major impact on the issue in

23:51this area. And so I think just breaking

23:53it up into these small pockets um and

23:56just kind of putting out little fires

23:58isn't helping in the overall picture. So

24:01I would be in favor of doing a a bigger

24:04more impact thing.

24:08Yes, thank you. And I'm not on this

24:10committee, but I appreciate being able

24:12to comment. I want to thank you for the

24:14work that you did putting all of this

24:15information together um for us in an

24:18very easily and an easy and digestible

24:21way. Um I want to just um show support

24:26for the hybrid model that you've

24:28suggested here. Um, and to that question

24:31of the, you know, I think the larger

24:33thinking more strategically

24:36about how to use those funds and and

24:39making a larger award a more impactful

24:41award, I think, [clears throat] you

24:42know, it would be more appropriate for

24:45us to do. Um, I think I appreciated some

24:48of the thinking behind the smaller

24:50awards as that was being put together.

24:52or hindsight is always I mean I wasn't

24:54here for that but I appreciate the

24:56philosophy behind it and wanting to

24:57spread dollars to as many places as

25:00possible but hindsight is 2020 and I

25:02think that some of those funds could

25:03have been better spent in in larger more

25:06impactful chunks. Um and then I would

25:08also

25:10like to um throw my support behind the

25:12idea that we get towards the RFP process

25:16that those funds are that we you know

25:19use public health to navigate that

25:21process. I think another thing that has

25:23come out in multiple places, committees,

25:26discussions is the need for more

25:28accountability and we don't have a great

25:30way to compel people to be accountable

25:32for the funds that they receive because

25:34we lack control over other

25:37organizations. But if we were able to do

25:39an RFP process for public health was

25:43the, you know, had control over those

25:45funds, we could build in reporting

25:47mechanisms, the things that the public

25:49wants to see and that we care about as

25:51counselors as those funds are going out.

25:53And I think that just be a better way to

25:56um to encourage collaboration

26:00that we'd like to see going forward.

26:03Conrad,

26:04>> I would would agree with a larger

26:07allocation for a bigger project. I think

26:08that's a great idea. I do feel we need

26:11to keep a little bit of a slush fund, a

26:13little kitty for emergencies because

26:15every year we have something come up and

26:17>> and it would be nice. Yeah, little kitty

26:19there

26:20>> just in case. So, I wouldn't want every

26:22penny to go towards one project,

26:24>> but the majority just wanted something

26:26that we deemed was appropriate be in our

26:29best interest and in the public's best

26:32interest. So, I'm very pleased with what

26:35you've done here. It looks very well

26:39thought out and uh organized and I'm

26:41hoping that we can make an impact what

26:44we have left.

26:46>> Fish

26:49on what council Carson said. I think

26:51I've said a few times, hindsight's 2020,

26:54especially with the first time around

26:56around when we had quite a bit of opioid

26:59money and I think we did the best we

27:01could and and now we've learned that the

27:04problem is just, you know, so big that

27:06it's going to probably take a big ticket

27:08number to create the right services and

27:12and facility that we really need to be

27:15uh more impactful. So, um I'm for um

27:19putting the money toward a bigger

27:20project. And I know the homeless

27:22committee, I know that that they're

27:23talking about housing, but a very very

27:26significant part of their discussion has

27:28been a lot about our folks on the street

27:30that have substant use addiction and how

27:32that's affecting them and they're coming

27:34up with I I think it'll be interesting

27:36to see what they come up with as well

27:38that might be able to uh fit into this.

27:41And I really did want to comment that

27:43the way you wrote this, I was able to

27:45click on things and I was able it didn't

27:47it seemed very easily to flow and be

27:49able to go and grasp that in um

27:52information that you had given us and I

27:55really liked um the baitment strategies

27:58given out here that you had written out

28:00for us. So thank you and I'm glad it's

28:02helpful.

28:03>> Councelor Carson. Yes. I'm sorry. And I

28:05did have one question for you and I

28:07don't need an answer right now, but I

28:08would be interested at some point in in

28:11feeling out and hearing more about

28:13>> prevention strategies that are

28:14available. I think that is something

28:16that we haven't necessarily

28:18>> done enough of

28:20>> in this space. We I mean we certainly do

28:22receive grants that are for those

28:24purposes in certain categories and we

28:26get those out. But I would love more

28:28education from you on what prevention

28:30strategies could look like and programs

28:32could look like. Um even if that's not

28:36something that ends up being, you know,

28:38part of this [clears throat]

28:40>> funding source, it would be great to

28:41know what strategies exist that we

28:43really could grasp grasp on to.

28:50>> I'll just say I like the idea of the uh

28:53community workshops. I know there's a

28:55lot of people out there who are real

28:56passionate about this money. Uh that

28:57gives them an opportunity to come in and

28:59uh try to channel that in a helpful

29:02constructive way. Um and so are you

29:05looking for you know some guidance from

29:08the direction from the committee?

29:10[clears throat]

29:10>> Yes. And I think this conversation was

29:12really helpful. I didn't want to get too

29:14far into detail without getting your

29:16feedback and your guidance. So what I

29:18can do is based upon this feedback here,

29:20I can flesh out something with a little

29:22bit more detail that looks at that

29:24hybrid model, maybe a bit of a timeline,

29:26what that would look like for the

29:27community sessions. I would actually

29:29talk with the Moss Center. They have

29:31been amazing. I just shout out to the

29:33Moss Center. Um they've like held our

29:36hand every step of the way and they do

29:38that for every municipality. So we can

29:39actually go to and say, "Okay, what did

29:41you use for Rockland? How can we adapt

29:43that here for Bangor and can you help us

29:45do that?" So what I would say is if if

29:48you feel like you've provided me with

29:49all the guidance, I can go back and just

29:51kind of flesh that out a little bit more

29:52and provide more detail, timeline, and

29:55um yeah, key activities,

29:58>> discussion or questions.

30:01>> Okay,

30:05[clears throat] that brings us to the

30:06warming center update.

30:08Um, as you have probably all heard, um,

30:11the funding from main housing was

30:13allocated. Um, and that the two people

30:17that were awarded, uh, funding was

30:20Bangor area homeless shelter to shelter

30:23to expand five beds over the winter.

30:26That is something they did last year.

30:28And to the brick church to fund 65 beds

30:32um through the winter. So, the other two

30:35that were not funded was the Mansion

30:37Church and Together Place. So, I just

30:39want to give you just a little bit of

30:41context. I looked at numbers um last

30:43week. And so, last year I didn't did not

30:47have data on every single night, but I

30:49had data on 50 nights of the year that

30:52came through our hub 7 coordinator.

30:55on average um there were about 85 people

30:59in a warming shelter bed over between no

31:02m November to mid uh April. So that's

31:07the average. Um the median was 82

31:11people. Um so not too far off.

31:15There were um for three nights during

31:18those 51 days there were 90 people or

31:22more. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

31:26On 20 evenings there were 90 people or

31:28more

31:30and on about

31:33and now I can't read my writing. On 11

31:35days there were 100 or more people in a

31:38warming shelter. I just want to give you

31:40a little bit of context. So what I have

31:43heard is that the mansion um will

31:47continue to be a warming shelter. I

31:50don't know if they're going to change

31:51some of their operations, but they will

31:52have about 25 beds.

31:55So, between the 65

31:59at Brick Church, the five at Bangor Area

32:01Homeless Shelter, and the 25 at Mansion,

32:06um we're looking at about what, like 95

32:08beds there. Um I am concerned about the

32:13coldest nights, right? we can we can we

32:16were shown to have a need for people to

32:20be in that space. Um so right now I'm

32:23working with Bruce Hughes with the

32:25warming shelters um to determine what

32:28would be some potential options um for

32:31meeting the needs during the coldest

32:32nights and that will be something that I

32:36can bring back to you. Um but right now

32:38I just want to let you know that we're

32:39having those conversations. Um, we are

32:42grateful for the funding that has come

32:43into this area. We're very grateful that

32:45Mansion Church is still looking to

32:47continue its warming shelter. It gives

32:50us options for people to be able to

32:52move. Um Um, but we do feel like there's

32:56a concern on those coldest days.

33:00>> Yes. Sorry. Sorry. What is the the cut

33:04off point for temperature? When when do

33:06you see those individuals fall? We um

33:10looked a little bit to Portland. So

33:12Portland last year had a temperature

33:15cutoff of 15 degrees. Um what was

33:19interesting about that is they had a

33:21temperature cut off but they ran into a

33:23little bit of a I think there was a

33:25little bit of an issue where they had

33:27snow that hadn't reached that

33:28temperature difference. So some of the

33:29shelters like the warming shelters they

33:31had may not have opened. So I think if

33:33we look at a cutoff we would have to

33:35consider temperature and snow like at a

33:37certain point. So thanks to AI um there

33:41were there on average are about 50 to 60

33:45days during a main winter in this area

33:49that are 15° or below. Um so that would

33:53be the number that we would probably

33:56think about on the number of days that

33:58we would potentially um need more space.

34:01Answer,

34:03>> can you you said there were 11 days or

34:06something over a hundred. Do you have in

34:09that what the highest number was?

34:11>> 120.

34:12>> So we're looking for 25 potentially 25

34:1730 beds

34:18>> for those 60.

34:20>> Yes. And what I would say again, I only

34:22had data for 51 days of the year, but I

34:25do know that 120 was about the maximum

34:27and it was 120 a couple of times during

34:30those 51 days. Um,

34:34in talking with Jen Lala, the hub

34:36coordinator, there's a potential that

34:38number could actually go a little higher

34:39because we're just seeing maybe a little

34:40bit more couch surfing, maybe a little

34:43bit more living together in small

34:46[clears throat] spaces that people may

34:48need to get out.

34:49We we don't know what the demand could

34:51potentially be like this year.

34:54>> Thank you.

34:56>> We have a discussion.

34:59>> Just one other thing. Until we do the

35:01point in time, we don't really know the

35:03number on the streets compared to last

35:05year. Do we?

35:06>> We don't. And I will

35:09I will say that most people have a

35:12lovehate relationship with the point in

35:13[laughter] time. Um because it does not

35:16count people who are couch surfing. it

35:18does not count people who are sort of

35:21cramming into an apartment to stay warm.

35:23So, while it does give us some type of

35:25an indicator,

35:27um it's really hard um to actually

35:32feel 100% confident in the number, but

35:35it it doesn't it is an indicator for us.

35:40>> Um last year we funded warming centers

35:43with some unexpected money from extra

35:46reimbursement from GA. Has there been

35:47any indication that the state will be so

35:50generous this year?

35:51>> No, we have not. However, one of the

35:54things that we are looking at is that um

35:57GA does provide support um for emergency

36:02shelters for people that have no income.

36:04So, we're I'm talking to my team about

36:07where those sort of creative um funding

36:10sources could be to have something

36:12available during the coldest days.

36:15We are not we are not in a place where

36:17we're going to have another full-time

36:19warming shelter open unless $300,000

36:22falls from the sky.

36:24Sure.

36:25>> And up count for fish. Um, for the

36:28people that were denied this money, are

36:30there any grants and and process with

36:33them that you know of or any other

36:35funding they're working on um where they

36:38still may be able to come up with

36:41something to comply with, you know, 20

36:4425 beds? That's one question. The other

36:46one is the GA money. I I know it's for,

36:50you know, homeless, but I think that's

36:51also for people to keep them in their

36:53housing. So I really I really hate when

36:56there's so many grants and so so many

36:59resources. I know it's very important to

37:01get these 2025 off the street in cold

37:04temperature because it's

37:05lifethreatening, but at the same time I

37:07just hate to see us quickly and easily

37:10turn to GA funding.

37:12>> I can tell you that there is no other

37:15funding for this specific warming

37:17shelter. the main housing warming shel

37:19shelter funds is the primary source. Um

37:26in terms of the GA funding, the one

37:28thing about GA is that you know that

37:30isn't a set amount of money. Funding the

37:33warming shelters at basically a very

37:36small amount um per bed per night does

37:40not take away from the GA that's

37:42provided to keep people in their in

37:44their homes.

37:46Carson,

37:47>> I was just wondering in terms of that

37:49funding question, that was something

37:51that might refer over to the legislative

37:54committee to chase.

37:56>> Dr. F.

37:57>> Thank you. I don't know if you know the

37:58answer to this, but I'll ask. Um, so it

38:02seems that the state gave out more money

38:06than it has historically for um for

38:10these overnight warming um shelters.

38:15Do we get less than we typically get

38:17here in Bangalore?

38:19>> We actually though compared to last year

38:21and this is always like shifting sands.

38:23Compared to last year, the city of

38:26Bangor got as a whole significantly more

38:28money than we did last year. Last year,

38:30Bangor area homeless shelter received

38:32about the same amount that they did last

38:34year and I believe the mansion received

38:37about 60,000. So to get $400 and

38:40something thousand is significantly more

38:43and it's the most that was given to any

38:45organization this year. So this year I

38:47think there was about 2 2.7ish million

38:50that was given out by the state and I

38:52believe last year is around 2.3.

38:55>> Follow up please. Um, so is it unusual

38:58for them to give so much to one

38:59organization and would there have been

39:01any benefit for that to get like split

39:04up between the other ones?

39:06>> So I think there's a lot of things that

39:08go into consideration when reviewing a

39:09grant application um that that mean

39:12housing needs to weigh.

39:16Last year, if you look at the list,

39:18there were organizations who got, you

39:21know, $400, $300,000,

39:24they some of them got refund, got grant

39:28funding again this year, but a much

39:30smaller amount in the other parts of the

39:33state.

39:36>> Any other discussion, questions,

39:37comments?

39:40So I think that can I think the message

39:42that I want to send is like

39:43>> we're talking about this. Jen Lawler is

39:46helping to bring us together to continue

39:47the conversation and not just about what

39:50could be some solutions for funding

39:53during these coldest times but there is

39:55an ongoing conversation on how

39:58coordination will happen among the

40:00warming shelters. So if they have a

40:02person who's been sort of told that they

40:04can't be at one shelter because of

40:05behavioral issues, they can get to the

40:07next one and how do we help with HMIS?

40:09So I just want you to know like there's

40:11conversations that are actively

40:12happening about the coordination during

40:15the winter months and how can we solve a

40:18potential gap and we'll be bringing that

40:20that back to you.

40:24>> I have a couple of things that um I

40:26would like to that I have like to know

40:29about. um last year, the numbers that we

40:31have, um was it documented or noted

40:35about how many of our homeless

40:37population were um suffering from their

40:40addiction, substance use? Um and if so,

40:44are any of those numbers the people that

40:47couldn't abide by the rules that were at

40:50these warming shelters? And were they

40:53part of the number of people outside

40:56that were outside because of that? The

40:58reason that I'm bringing this up is

41:00because I'm kind of wondering, yes, we

41:02have the warming shelters, but is it

41:04just a bed or are we handing out

41:07recovery resources for them? Are we

41:10talking to them about a next step? Um

41:15>> I'm just kind of curious, you know,

41:17being

41:18>> um also working in this field, I'm just

41:20wondering uh for this year, how can we

41:24wrap those services around people to

41:28make rec recovery more

41:32>> like attractive if you want to use that

41:35word or I'm just curious on the numbers

41:38of people that because I know I don't

41:40know if these warming shelters are you

41:42can't be drinking, you can't be doing

41:43drugs while you're there and are they

41:45looking at backpacks and and stuff to

41:48see if they're bringing in

41:50>> um substances or not.

41:52>> These are just questions that I've seen

41:54emails come in about this. So, I'm

41:55wondering, you know, um really about the

41:59numbers and what we can do to try to

42:02bring people to recovery and have less

42:05people outside and following rules. I

42:07mean, I I'm saying it because I see it.

42:09Like, I'm not

42:11>> following the rule that, you know, and

42:13then you're stuck outside sleeping.

42:16>> Um, so go ahead.

42:17>> Yes. Um, I will look to see if the data

42:20collected included sort of mental

42:24health, substance use. I I can I can my

42:27first reaction is probably no because

42:29that's often captured in HMIS. But I

42:31will absolutely ask about that.

42:33>> Okay. I can confidently say that the

42:37warming shelters have resources in go in

42:42options path team um and other teams go

42:45in there our own team go in and talk

42:48about housing talk about resources and

42:51one of the warming shelters last year

42:53was in together place and so they have

42:56talked about that it wasn't just a

42:58warming shelter but people were moving

43:00through you know the the progress to

43:02recovery

43:03We can always do more. Um,

43:07and I think that that's part of the

43:08coordination. I know that our team has

43:10talked about how we can get our street

43:13outreach person into each one of the

43:15warming shelters on a regular basis. Um,

43:18but I can I can confidently say yes,

43:20there was a lot of involvement by

43:23outside organizations. And I think

43:25that's a it's a real strength of Bangor

43:27that all our warming shelters have said

43:30yes, come in and talk to people and get

43:32them connected. In terms of policies

43:35around bag checks and rules, every

43:38warming shelter has their own rules.

43:40Most of them do include bag checks. Um

43:44and again, and some vary on like what

43:47state a person can be in when they enter

43:50the shelter. That also varies.

43:53Jen, could you also just talk a little

43:55bit about how they all work together to

43:58prevent that situation where someone is

44:01left outside?

44:02>> Yes. So, if someone maybe has a

44:04behavioral issue at one location and

44:07they're no longer to be there, they will

44:09call they will call Bruce and say, "I've

44:11got this person. Can you talk with the

44:12other shelters if they're able to take

44:14them in?" Or they will directly call one

44:16of the other warming shelters, say,

44:17"This person can't be here for a few

44:19days. You know, can they come over to

44:20your place and provide the support?

44:23that happened

44:25quite frequently. I also know that say

44:28for example Bangor area homeless shelter

44:30at one point said you know what we have

44:31some people on our list that have had

44:33behavioral issues but you know what

44:35we're going to shorten the time amount

44:37of time that they can't be here so we

44:39can bring them back in very quickly. Um

44:42a lot of that sort of informal um

44:45conversations and linkages happen.

44:48I just follow one more followup thing.

44:51I'm wondering too about the warming

44:53center shelters and are we able to

44:58find out if people that are coming into

45:01the shelters are Bangor residents?

45:03>> That's a very good question.

45:06>> Thank you.

45:07>> Yeah. Oh, counter fish. Um, so you know,

45:12I've heard different figures over the

45:14summer especially that [clears throat]

45:16our homeless from those out in the field

45:19and estimates was, you know, peeping

45:23around 700 this summer between 600 700

45:27and the the warming shelters are a

45:29reflection of our winter population. I

45:31don't think anybody would survive on one

45:33day out below zero. So if that's around

45:36120, where are the other five and 600

45:40people going to in the winter time?

45:42>> So first I just want to delineate that

45:44the 700 number I believe is for all of

45:46hub 7. Okay.

45:47>> So not just for Bangor. Winter is an

45:50interesting time. So also I want to

45:51point out that while we had about 120

45:54people in warming shelters, that does

45:56not include the about another hundred

45:58that was between travel between Hope

46:01House and Bangor area homeless shelter

46:03full capacity. So between those regular

46:06emergency shelter numbers and the

46:08warming shelter numbers, we're looking

46:09about 220 that were in a bed during this

46:12the coldest of nights in Bangor. That

46:15also does not include the people who go

46:17and live with their friends, are couch

46:19surfing, are exchanging different things

46:22for being able to stay on a couch. Um,

46:25so it's it's the winter is a time where

46:28people find the word they need.

46:34>> Is there a a an emergency priority with

46:37any individual whatsoever that's on the

46:39street that has a child?

46:42>> Um, yes. We the the challenge with that

46:45to be honest with you, we do not have a

46:47family shelter in Bangor. That is one of

46:49our biggest gaps. The closest family

46:51shelter, if I recall this correctly, is

46:54like Orland um where they have the the

46:57home program. Family families are

47:00absolutely prioritized. We try and move

47:02them to wherever we can very quickly,

47:05pay for their transportation to get

47:07there, but there is pretty much no

47:09option in Bangor for a family. We try

47:12and work with GA. We we try and pull

47:14everything we can.

47:16>> Comforted. I think one of the things a

47:18lot of people say about the unhoused in

47:21Bangor is why would anyone want to be

47:22unhoused in Bangor made in the winter

47:25but we don't see a mass exodus of these

47:27unhoused people going to warmer climates

47:30they really are just staying here or do

47:32we see them actually leaving in the

47:35winter time for warmer climates? I mean

47:36most have some idea.

47:38>> It's to be honest with you it's really

47:40hard to know because again people will

47:42start to move inside to other

47:44apartments. Um, some people do leave for

47:47for warmer climates because they don't

47:49have that option. Some people, you know,

47:52came up here because they thought they

47:53were going to have a job or a

47:54relationship or some other reason or

47:55their family was going to take them in

47:56and that didn't happen. And we use our

47:59resources to be able to get them to a

48:00place where they have that support. Um,

48:04we don't see a dramatic change in the

48:07number. Again, it's a year by it is

48:11really hard to predict.

48:13follow up if I could. If they are

48:15leaving going elsewhere, do you get

48:17notification from the area that they

48:19>> have moved to? So, you have no way of

48:21knowing.

48:22>> Yeah.

48:24Another pitch

48:26>> along that line. Um would you say I know

48:29it's hard to predict but um would you

48:33say that those that are truly more have

48:35Bangor roots or or our greater community

48:38within our greater community they tend

48:41to be the ones that maybe stay might

48:44even be the ones that tend to reach out

48:45a little more than those that are a

48:47little more mobile.

48:50I agree.

48:51>> You have that one. But

48:52>> but I know with anybody I spoke to or

48:55any when the encampment was by my place

48:58of business I spoke to many that when it

49:00got colder they were headed back south

49:02and they told me that that's their

49:04thing. They come north in the summer and

49:06they go south in the winter. So uh I

49:08know we we can't we don't have a

49:10questionnaire for them to fill out. So

49:12there's no way to know. But uh I've

49:14heard that quite often to be to be

49:16honest. So, uh, with councelor Dean's

49:19question, um, just kind of maybe have

49:21the same question, I guess.

49:25>> Thank you.

49:26>> You have a question before we move on to

49:28the next item. Councelor Miller,

49:31>> could you tell us how many warming

49:34shelters there are in Hub 7

49:37we affiliate with or send people to, or

49:41do we share with other warming shelters

49:44in other areas? If somebody was um if

49:50somebody had family or better support in

49:53another location, we would absolutely do

49:56everything that we can and we have done

49:58this get them to that area, even if it

50:00includes moving to another shelter. We

50:03want to make sure that people are in the

50:04best environment for their support and

50:06there have been times when people have

50:07said it's been Augusta or Portland and

50:09we've said okay let's make sure that

50:11there's a bed for you first. We're not

50:13going to send you to that area if there

50:14isn't going to be a bed at the shelter.

50:16We'll confirm that and then help

50:18somebody get there.

50:20>> Closer than that. I'm looking at

50:22Ponobsk.

50:22>> Let me let me let me get that in

50:24Ponobscot County.

50:25>> Hubs. Well, how many what what does hub

50:277 cover

50:31>> I will I will get that information for

50:32you.

50:36>> Any other discussion?

50:38>> Okay. Thank you for that update.

50:40>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And that

50:42brings us to the homelessness crisis

50:44protocol policy review and discussion.

51:11Okay, joining to the table is Chief

51:12Hathaway. Um, I'll let you take it away.

51:16So, a little background on this policy.

51:18Uh, the legislature in 2021 moved LD1478

51:23to law. The law compelled the attorney

51:26general and all police agencies, law

51:29enforcement agencies across the state to

51:31develop a homeless crisis protocol. The

51:34law provides some basic expectations.

51:37Largely the law indicates that the

51:40protocol must include a referral option

51:43services referral services. Other than

51:46that, uh the law is pretty much open for

51:49the type protocol which the agency

51:51wishes to develop. In on March 1st of

51:542022, the attorney general distributed

51:57guidance and a model policy. uh most all

52:00law enforcement agencies in the state

52:02adopted a version of the model policy.

52:05Uh we met with council during a workshop

52:07in late March 2022 outlined the uh

52:10protocol and our pro protocol was

52:13effective on April 1st 2022

52:16and [clears throat] the policy requires

52:18an a by annual review. In 2024, we

52:21reviewed that protocol and we adjusted

52:24the procedure section slightly to

52:26provide clarity uh to our staff. That

52:30policy remains in effect today. It's

52:33time now. We're we we're overdue for a

52:36review of this protocol. So, we wish to

52:39a public discussion.

52:41>> Okay. [clears throat] Uh questions,

52:42discussions, councor fish. um in March

52:46of 2025 I think it was um there was an

52:51update on on the policy and um

52:55and does how does that work? Does that

52:57come to that didn't go to full counsel

53:00was a discussion and then there was an

53:01amendment and how did that come to um be

53:05adopted? So generally our policies are

53:07not council are not approved by health.

53:10This policy was and I'll explain when

53:12the guidance was distributed by the

53:14attorney general in 2022.

53:17Uh that initial guidance required a

53:19public discussion. Then city manager

53:22Lori and I discussed put it on a council

53:24uh pre-consel council workshop a

53:27discussion. In the meantime the attorney

53:29general rescended that uh expectation.

53:32We went ahead with a public discussion.

53:34There's been some misunderstanding that

53:36that this policy was created by council.

53:38This is a council policy. Um it's not

53:41true. The revision in 2024

53:45um was done to provide clarity in the

53:48section that the police officer would

53:50operate that our policy now aligns much

53:52closer with other policy say Portland

53:54police department's policy for example.

53:59>> Go ahead council fish. Um, thank you for

54:03sending other uh policies and I didn't

54:05know that um several towns actually tend

54:09to have almost verbatim the same policy

54:12but some towns um the application of the

54:17protocol seem to be much different than

54:20Bangor's application of the policies. Uh

54:23so I don't know if that's a matter of

54:24training, interpretation, application,

54:27but um you know I know that um we've

54:31before said what do you need to enforce

54:33the law and I know that it suggested

54:36protocol uh that these five crimes um

54:39you know that they not be charged uh

54:42with criminal u offense but at the same

54:46time it seems like Bangor's application

54:48is being pretty ineffective at this

54:50point when right across from the police

54:53You've got people publicly, you know,

54:55injecting drugs and and and just a lot

54:58of obscene activity and daily we are

55:00getting emails from the public where

55:03interactions with homeless are getting

55:05more aggressive and more violent and um

55:08so what do you need from us? I mean what

55:11why is it that Brewer has the same

55:14almost the same protocols as we do but

55:16the application and the enforcement of

55:18it is so different? Can you explain

55:20that? I don't know that it is. I think

55:22it's perception. Uh since you brought

55:25Brewer up, let's just talk about some

55:26numbers for a minute. We've answered

55:2823,000 more calls this year than Brewer.

55:31We start the day with the same number of

55:33staffing on the street. Um we've charged

55:36over 1,800 people criminal violations.

55:38Brew was charged less than 200. We've

55:41arrested 1,200 people this year. They've

55:43arrested around 130. So the suggestion

55:46that we're not actually working or we're

55:48not actually getting the job done is

55:52untrue.

55:53I get it. There's a problem across the

55:55street. There's problem in the park.

55:58But don't we think that maybe it's a

56:00resource issue.

56:02People come here for resources. 17 sober

56:05houses, three method clinics, two

56:07emergency departments, two psychiatric

56:09hospitals. They don't have those in

56:10Brewery. They have them here. So, we're

56:14overrun. We started the summer with 20%

56:16deficit in staff. If you own [snorts] a

56:18business or run a business, you know how

56:21difficult that is. We're still running

56:2320% below staffing.

56:25It's very, very difficult.

56:30>> That's

56:31>> Thank you. I appreciate those numbers um

56:35because that really puts things into

56:37perspective. Um, when I was reading

56:39this, it just seemed to me like

56:43it could be simplified because it just

56:46seems like there are so many kind of

56:50variables on some of this behavior that

56:54I mean I I have never been trained as a

56:56police officer, but if I'm out there and

56:59I'm having to make quick decisions on

57:01some of these things that are going on,

57:04like I'm not going to have this

57:06memorized and it's just going to really

57:08hard to know in my opinion like how to

57:12interpret this and how to apply it. Like

57:15is that a problem?

57:16>> I don't think it is. I [laughter] think

57:18those in those in the expectations of of

57:20those laws that are that the attorney

57:22general listed, I think all of our

57:24officers understand the expectation.

57:27What everybody's talking about is uh

57:29folks that are injecting drugs. That

57:32seems to be the the the issue. So, let's

57:35talk about that for just a minute.

57:36That's a misdemeanor. That's not We

57:38wouldn't arrest that person. Give him a

57:39citation. Once we do that, we have to

57:41take a syringe because now we have to

57:43make sure we test what's what's in the

57:45syringe to determine if indeed it is an

57:47illegal substance.

57:49The jail is full. Today's census was

57:51about 60 over what they're allowed to

57:53have. So, we can't bring the person to

57:55jail. Um the jail uh refuses us. Uh

57:59understandably when people have sores,

58:02they have medical issues, they have

58:04cuts. Uh the jail can't accept that

58:07person. They certainly can't introduce

58:09those folks into their population.

58:11Prosecutor's office. We met with the

58:13prosecutor's office. There are generally

58:15300 cases per prosecutor. Those are

58:18generally aggravated assaults, domestic

58:20violence, child abuse. a simple

58:23possession violation is is not something

58:25that they they wish to prosecute, even

58:27though they will if we present it.

58:32The the challenge of this is is is that

58:35we have more of a problem here because

58:38we literally and I think everybody

58:40understands that we're caring for a

58:44large chunk of the state's most

58:45vulnerable people, some of the most sick

58:48and and and and I know we talk about

58:50drugs all the time. We think that that's

58:52our biggest problem. Please believe me,

58:54mental illness is much, much greater a

58:56problem in our community. We really

58:58don't talk about folks that are

59:00struggling with mental health issues,

59:02but it's far greater a problem.

59:07The the idea that that your police

59:09officers are not addressing these issues

59:12is we're just we're just overwhelmed

59:15with it. And I don't think it's fair to

59:18classify one community as doing a better

59:21job when really we all know that most

59:24communities p point their most

59:26vulnerable to the community with all the

59:28services and that's Bangor in our

59:30region. If every community took care of

59:33the most vulnerable, we might not be

59:34having this conversation right now.

59:37But I don't believe the protocol the

59:40complexity of those laws is the issue.

59:41No, I do not. I think the officers very

59:43much understand what they can and cannot

59:46do and um when they engage somebody that

59:49they know has repeatedly violated any

59:51provision of that they do address it

59:53with with a criminal action.

59:57follow.

59:58>> Is there a certain number of times that

1:00:00the same person in like in is there a

1:00:03record like if the same person gets

1:00:05caught um injecting in public, you know,

1:00:08one time they get, you know, whatever a

1:00:10warning and then it happens a second

1:00:12time. I mean, is there a a way of

1:00:14tracking that? And

1:00:16>> how many times would it take to get

1:00:18them, you know,

1:00:21how many times could they commit that

1:00:24offense before they were arrested, for

1:00:27example?

1:00:27>> We we track our engagement by name. So,

1:00:30we do we do know

1:00:32>> but I'll give you one quick example. Uh

1:00:34we arrested a young woman for theft,

1:00:36stealing alcohol at a local supermarket.

1:00:38She had seven sets of bail. We took her

1:00:41to jail because she's engaged in this

1:00:43behavior repeatedly. and she told the uh

1:00:45the folks at the jail intake that she

1:00:47was pregnant, they would not accept her.

1:00:49So, we gave her a citation and off she

1:00:51went. That just repeats it cycle over

1:00:53and over. And that's what our officers

1:00:55do over and over. The system is really

1:00:58broken far, far above the street police

1:01:01officer. We expect the street police

1:01:03officer to solve society's failures, but

1:01:05we don't give them the tools to do that

1:01:08job. And that's where we are today

1:01:10looking at the street police officer to

1:01:12solve this problem when the system's

1:01:14broken far far above that particular

1:01:16officer

1:01:20and counter form.

1:01:21>> Um I agree the mental health issue is is

1:01:25bigger but um but I I also understand

1:01:27that a lot of the mental health um where

1:01:30they are today with their mental health

1:01:32a lot of times has come as a result of

1:01:34substance use abuse in a lot of cases.

1:01:37Then you have, you know, people with

1:01:39mental health crises going on. So I

1:01:41think we have two things going on and

1:01:44some of them are related um if not a lot

1:01:46of it to substance use addiction. So

1:01:50what do you need from us to help to have

1:01:52the city and the council do something?

1:01:55What can we do more immediate? What

1:01:57about you know I know we have a

1:01:59legislative committee. Would there be um

1:02:02a transitional correctional center? I

1:02:04mean there's Charleston Correctional

1:02:05Center. Do they have vacancies? Can we

1:02:07collaborate with Ponobskot County? If

1:02:09our jail is system, is there some kind

1:02:11of resource so we can start actually

1:02:14permanently charging some of these? You

1:02:16know, not all of them intend to

1:02:18misbehave, but there's a good portion of

1:02:20them that already know those five crimes

1:02:22and and they abuse them.

1:02:24>> They abuse it and they also know how how

1:02:26to wiggle their way out of trouble. So,

1:02:30two things. I I do believe that uh we do

1:02:32need to have some sort of a step down

1:02:34unit. CHCS just opened up program which

1:02:37may prove helpful. U but a lot of what

1:02:41we do is we engage the person that's in

1:02:43conversation with the stop sign and

1:02:45people see that and they they're

1:02:47concerned and they feel unsafe and

1:02:50they're scared about this person who's

1:02:51aggressively talking to the stop sign.

1:02:53Well, that person's not breaking the law

1:02:56and they don't belong in the emergency

1:02:57department because they they don't meet

1:02:59the criteria. So once the officer

1:03:01deescalates a situation, what what what

1:03:03is it we do with that person? That's a

1:03:06lot of our calls during the course of

1:03:07the day. We don't have a resource for

1:03:11that person. Most certainly if they

1:03:13don't uh cooperate, then we we can't

1:03:16force them into doing a service that

1:03:18doesn't necessarily exist anyway. So

1:03:21that's one. We definitely need some

1:03:23level of help with that situation

1:03:25because like I said just a moment ago,

1:03:27that's a lot of what we do during the

1:03:29course of the day. A lot of the times

1:03:31when we hear we don't feel safe is

1:03:33because people see that sort of behavior

1:03:36and it's either a behavior that's

1:03:38resulting from substance abuse in the

1:03:40moment or it's indeed somebody that's in

1:03:42some sort of crisis and we need a

1:03:44placement for that person. We do need

1:03:46them to participate but we need a

1:03:48placement. two, um I very much

1:03:51understand why the jail turns us away.

1:03:55Um if they are indeed well over census

1:03:58day after day after day and they have to

1:04:00be selective to what what we bring if we

1:04:02bring in a person who is aggressive in

1:04:04the community, somebody that is is um

1:04:07you know violent, they'll accept that

1:04:09person. They'll figure a way to accept

1:04:10that person. But the person who was at

1:04:12McDonald's on Saturday tipping over

1:04:14chairs that we arrested, they did not

1:04:17want that person. they turned him away.

1:04:19So, we gave him a citation and set him

1:04:20up sent him out the door.

1:04:22>> So, I don't blame I don't necessarily

1:04:25put this at the feet of anybody. I think

1:04:28as a whole, we really need to have a

1:04:30much broader discussion than just what

1:04:33this policy represents. Um, we're we're

1:04:36fine if the council, if you collectively

1:04:39wish to make some adjustments to this

1:04:40policy, we're not we're not opposed to

1:04:42that. Uh, that's fine. But I think you

1:04:46you might have nailed it just a moment

1:04:47ago when you said, "Do we need to speak

1:04:49to our delegation, legislators, what is

1:04:52it abroad that we can do to help address

1:04:54this problem?" Because I've said you've

1:04:56heard me say it during budget. You've

1:04:57heard me say it during other council

1:04:58meetings. We can't expect the street

1:05:00police officer to solve this problem

1:05:02without the resources.

1:05:04>> Yeah.

1:05:07>> If if we and I don't know, maybe this is

1:05:09something for our solicitor or our

1:05:11manager. Um, we do we're we're we're

1:05:15carrying the blunt of it. Our residents

1:05:17are, our businesses are. Every day we're

1:05:18getting emails where the interactions

1:05:20are getting more and more aggressive

1:05:22now. Residents are even, you know,

1:05:24talking about how they're going to

1:05:25defend themselves because they don't

1:05:26feel we're we're you know, we're

1:05:28protecting them. So if can if we can we

1:05:32declare a state of emergency to get some

1:05:33kind of emergency um um

1:05:38ideas you know whether uh we have some

1:05:40temporary correctional facilities

1:05:42something that's available out there

1:05:43with collaboration

1:05:45um what what could we do if we declared

1:05:48a state of emergency

1:05:50yeah so I think this question had been

1:05:53posed to me last fall and the answer was

1:05:58really very little and if we were to

1:06:02declare it, we'd really want to be sure

1:06:04that we had a clear and direct ask of

1:06:07the state. Otherwise, it would simply be

1:06:09a squandered opportunity.

1:06:12Um, so I think it would first be what is

1:06:15it do we think we need and is that

1:06:19something that by declaring a state of

1:06:22emergency does it create an avenue for

1:06:24us to ask for that thing?

1:06:27But also I if somebody feels unsafe,

1:06:31we'll engage that. This is different

1:06:33than I mean I use the example of the

1:06:35stop sign because that is not an

1:06:37uncommon call for us downtown. But if

1:06:40that makes somebody feel unsafe, I

1:06:42appreciate that. But we're going to be

1:06:43there to address that problem. It may

1:06:45not we may not solve it. We're the

1:06:47police. We're like emergency

1:06:48intervention. We don't solve long-term

1:06:50problems. But if someone feels unsafe,

1:06:52my goodness gracious, we need to be

1:06:54engaged with that. Um, I can't think of

1:06:56any time when someone's called us and

1:06:58said they feel unsafe that we haven't

1:06:59been at their door or at their side in a

1:07:01short order. So, I want to make sure

1:07:02that,

1:07:04you know, a pan handler who asks you for

1:07:06a couple dollars is a nuisance and

1:07:08uncomfortable, I get I understand that,

1:07:11but that's not necessarily unsafe. But

1:07:12if a person is feeling unsafe in their

1:07:14neighborhood, like by gosh, we need to

1:07:16know about that.

1:07:18>> I don't think they call anymore. They've

1:07:20called and got nobody's office. we don't

1:07:22call anymore and I do feel safe.

1:07:26>> Councelor Flo and then councelor Carson

1:07:28from the council.

1:07:29>> Thank you. Um I think you might have

1:07:31sort [clears throat] of answered this.

1:07:32Um I was going to ask like what what do

1:07:35you need from us? Like what tools do you

1:07:38need from us other than those resources?

1:07:41Is there anything like in the immediate

1:07:43like are your officers the ones who are

1:07:46on the phone having to try to trying to

1:07:49figure out what to do with that person

1:07:52or I mean is that an area where maybe

1:07:55you could use some help so they get back

1:07:56to doing what they typically do if they

1:07:58are the ones doing that. So we fortunate

1:08:01we engage BCAP. We have a partnership

1:08:03with the PATH team through CHCS. So

1:08:05we're able to use other resources. Of

1:08:07course, we have our our partners at

1:08:08public health. Um so we're able to shift

1:08:11some of that to those that are better

1:08:13suited to make those phone calls. And if

1:08:15it's a mental health situation, we do

1:08:16have our partnership with Aadia

1:08:18Hospital. So we have plenty of partners

1:08:19that can engage the long-term question

1:08:22so the officer can go to the next call.

1:08:25Um but I think messaging is the issue

1:08:28here. Um I spoke with uh our BCAT team

1:08:32today. We are still experiencing new

1:08:35faces, new arrivals of 30 or so a month.

1:08:39That is that is their data on the street

1:08:43working alongside path options and

1:08:45others.

1:08:47They've engaged a more difficult group

1:08:49over the summer. And what I mean by

1:08:51difficult is uh folks that are not

1:08:53necessarily uh receptive to to services.

1:08:57Um, so we try to soft hand them off to

1:09:00uh a warm hand off the path and see a

1:09:03path through CACS and sort of engage

1:09:05these new folks that are coming down

1:09:07with services. But there is a struggle

1:09:10with a certain set of this community

1:09:12that does not want help from us or a

1:09:16BCAP program. So we hope that we can by

1:09:19shifting it over the path and others who

1:09:21who are equally uh engaged in this

1:09:24process will make some inroads.

1:09:28the person, you know, again, messaging

1:09:31is the issue here. If we are

1:09:33experiencing 30 plus people a month that

1:09:35are coming here whom aren't here right

1:09:37now but will be next month, I don't know

1:09:41um how we're going to continue to manage

1:09:44this problem where it sounds like from

1:09:47councelor Fish's explanation, we're not

1:09:49managing it well. So more and more

1:09:52people are coming here requiring more

1:09:54and more management and more resources.

1:09:57Um and please remember I don't know

1:09:59about all city departments but many city

1:10:01departments are struggling with with

1:10:03staffing issues. So I think everybody is

1:10:06trying their best but we understand that

1:10:08we're not meeting everybody's

1:10:10expectation. That is absolutely true. We

1:10:12we appreciate [snorts] that.

1:10:13>> It does bother me greatly uh a lot. I

1:10:16mean, I do live in Bangor and it bothers

1:10:18me when I hear that we have people in

1:10:19neighborhoods that don't feel safe. That

1:10:21is a problem. And I would like to learn

1:10:24more about just that is that is

1:10:27unacceptable in

1:10:31a quick follow. Um,

1:10:34are there any changes you would like to

1:10:35see to this policy?

1:10:38>> No, I don't I don't necessarily um think

1:10:41that the policy needs changes. I think

1:10:44that I do believe that if you

1:10:46collectively want to have discussions

1:10:48about it, then we should have that

1:10:50discussion. If there's members of the

1:10:52community that engage you that want this

1:10:54policy to have some adjustments to it,

1:10:55we're certainly open to that. That's not

1:10:57we're that's fine. Um, you know, in my

1:11:01conversation with with staff and some

1:11:03supervisors about this, knowing we were

1:11:04going to have this review at some point,

1:11:06this policy is not necessarily a

1:11:08hindrance to staff performing their

1:11:10duties. It's a combination of of many

1:11:13things. this policy partly and then

1:11:16frustration. Uh you know, you arrest

1:11:18somebody seven or eight times and you

1:11:20know, literally truly before you have

1:11:22the report completed, submitted to your

1:11:24supervisor, they're back engaged in

1:11:26other behavior that you're being called

1:11:27on. And that's that's not unusual. So,

1:11:31there's a level of frustration uh that's

1:11:33also attached to it. I mean this policy

1:11:35frustration and like I mentioned earlier

1:11:38a system that is overwhelmed not just at

1:11:40the local bed city level but way above

1:11:43us at the state level and above. Um I

1:11:45don't have an answer but I will share

1:11:47with you that you do have a very good

1:11:49staff at the police department and you

1:11:51know they operate with compassion and

1:11:53then lean into a problem with

1:11:55enforcement when it's necessary. I mean,

1:11:57we think we all everybody in the room

1:11:59wants the mo the most vulnerable in our

1:12:01community to be connected with servants

1:12:03until they engage in bad bad behavior

1:12:06and then we have to step in and address

1:12:08it and we do that and I just outlined

1:12:10the numbers so that

1:12:16>> thank you um not on this committee but I

1:12:19do have a a couple questions and then

1:12:20maybe a couple comments. Um, not

1:12:23necessarily that I would need answers

1:12:25now, but I know that there's data, but

1:12:27so as a result of this policy, are

1:12:29people connecting with services?

1:12:32>> Well, that's a valid question and I

1:12:35don't know that I can answer your

1:12:36question. Um, I almost think we need to

1:12:40have representative from public health

1:12:41help us with this question. When I spoke

1:12:44with BCAT um earlier today, my the

1:12:47suggestion is that there's u not as much

1:12:51cooperation as maybe you would hope and

1:12:55uh there's a variety of reasons for

1:12:56that. Something mental illness, some

1:13:00distrust of law enforcement. There's a

1:13:02variety of reasons, but I don't know

1:13:03what could have a better

1:13:05>> I don't think this policy is driving

1:13:08connection. I think it's where

1:13:10somebody's at. Some people are ready to

1:13:12engage, some people aren't. And what

1:13:14we're doing is just using best

1:13:16practices. This policy reflects many

1:13:18best practices. Um, but this isn't

1:13:21policy this policy isn't driving the

1:13:24connection or not.

1:13:25>> Thank you. Um, the second question is

1:13:28are repeat contacts is is that something

1:13:32that's increasing, decreasing, and do

1:13:35you have an assessment about why it's

1:13:37going either way? like if it's

1:13:39increasing is that do part you know

1:13:41mostly because we have 30 new faces a

1:13:43month right and just by math that's how

1:13:45it goes or so by conversation I don't

1:13:49know that it's increasing but we

1:13:50certainly know who our repeat offenders

1:13:52are and our repeat offenders we do

1:13:55charge with crimes I mean we have to

1:13:56introduce them into the system at some

1:13:58point in some cases it can be a

1:14:01lifesaver we all know of stories where

1:14:04uh going to jail actually saved a

1:14:06person's life so uh repeat offender We

1:14:09do address criminal action. Um, do we

1:14:12try to be compassionate as reasonably

1:14:15possible early in the process based on

1:14:17the violation of basics?

1:14:20Um, does that uh does that mean that

1:14:23we're we're going to allow a lawless

1:14:25community where everybody can get free

1:14:27for all do whatever they want? No. No.

1:14:30No. But, you know, again, the numbers

1:14:32that I I outlined earlier suggest that

1:14:34we are indeed engaged um with people

1:14:37that are that are that are bad actors

1:14:39and we'll continue to do that.

1:14:42>> Thank you. Um and I just have a couple

1:14:44comments if it's okay. Um, and the first

1:14:46is just generally I'm hearing that there

1:14:49is a great need to have continued

1:14:51discussion around resources. And so I

1:14:53would hope maybe this committee,

1:14:54somebody on it could send a referral

1:14:56over to legislative committee to have a

1:14:59a discussion on the types of things that

1:15:01we could advocate for um on your behalf.

1:15:04I heard pretty clearly you talking about

1:15:06a step down unit, step down team. That's

1:15:09something we've talked about before.

1:15:11I've heard it over and over. So I would

1:15:13love to engage in a deeper discussion

1:15:15about what that could look like for me

1:15:17in regards to this policy and I

1:15:19recognize the limitations that we have

1:15:24right a jail that's full or over census

1:15:26we don't have um another space right I

1:15:30mean there's not everybody's a great

1:15:33candidate for that anyways we want

1:15:35people to get services first we want

1:15:36people to get connected to recovery we

1:15:38want people to heal Um,

1:15:42at the same time, right, the those kinds

1:15:45of conditions are, I think, a driver in

1:15:47some of the behavior that we see you

1:15:48said yourself and people memorize these

1:15:52what what can they get away with. And I

1:15:54think once you know what you can get

1:15:56away with, if you're going to be able to

1:15:57get away with it, you're going to get

1:15:58away with it. Um, that's a problem. And

1:16:01I I don't know what the solution to that

1:16:04is. Uh, because again, you know, you

1:16:06have the jail that's full. There's

1:16:07nowhere to send people. And I've heard

1:16:09pe I've received emails. I've had people

1:16:11say to me, "Well, you know, we send

1:16:14people out of state. That's a wildly

1:16:16expensive process." So, I don't think

1:16:18that that's reasonable um to try to

1:16:21collaborate in that way.

1:16:24What um what do you see as like a

1:16:28potential other space between, you know,

1:16:31it's we have services, we need people to

1:16:34agree to do that. We have jail.

1:16:38What else is is in your mind is an

1:16:41option?

1:16:41>> Can I just offer and maybe this is a

1:16:43question for you chief pathway to answer

1:16:44is the role that drug court also plays

1:16:47in this system and giving people an

1:16:51option at times to either go to jail or

1:16:55to go into some type of recovery

1:16:57program. So I don't know.

1:16:58>> Yeah, drug court has been is a fantastic

1:17:01program. uh officer Blanchard who many

1:17:03of you have met has since retired but he

1:17:06stayed on with us on a permanent basis

1:17:08so we can continue his work with drug

1:17:10court so we still have a a law

1:17:12enforcement connection to the best we

1:17:14have with drug court and you were right

1:17:16that is a good program uh there has been

1:17:18there have been some some success

1:17:20stories a number of success stories of

1:17:21their program and we're very much

1:17:22engaged with it

1:17:26you know it it's a process of of many

1:17:29[clears throat] many things It's not

1:17:31just arresting somebody, right? It's

1:17:34introducing people into services. It's

1:17:35combination of things and it's the

1:17:37police working in partnership with

1:17:39providers, with public health, with our

1:17:42mental health professional. It's really

1:17:44a a partnership,

1:17:48[clears throat] but I I really wanted to

1:17:50come to you today tonight with

1:17:51solutions. I wanted to have a more

1:17:53positive conversation, and I'm sorry

1:17:55we're not right. I really wish that we

1:17:58could present you with some solutions so

1:17:59we could make the folks that feel unsafe

1:18:02feel safe. I mean, that is the objective

1:18:04of the police, right? The objective is

1:18:06for you to be safe and feel safe in your

1:18:09homes. And if we're failing at that,

1:18:11then we really need to look at what

1:18:13we're doing and how we can improve. And

1:18:16um you know, I I that does that does

1:18:19create some some some uh concern for me.

1:18:22I really does. I want I want everybody

1:18:25in this room and I want everybody at

1:18:27home that might be watching this now or

1:18:28will watch it later on to feel safe in

1:18:31their work environment when they travel

1:18:33or through town if they go out to a

1:18:34restaurant to their doctor's office and

1:18:36most certainly at home when they go to

1:18:37bed and and if we can't accomplish that

1:18:40then we really collectively have to

1:18:41start rethinking about what we're doing

1:18:43and how we can be better and we are most

1:18:46certainly part of that.

1:18:48My final comment, thank you, is that,

1:18:51you know, I know we see 30 new faces a

1:18:54month. Um, you've mentioned the pocket

1:18:57of people who are not interested in

1:19:00receiving services, and I recognize that

1:19:02there's a challenge there, but that that

1:19:04could be for multiple reasons, right?

1:19:06Some people are not ready for services

1:19:08yet. They could become ready for

1:19:10services. Other people have distrust of

1:19:13law enforcement or so forth. Um, I'm

1:19:17going to just say this like as a

1:19:18comment. I don't know how to feel this

1:19:20out in policy or how to affectuate it,

1:19:22but I am fully disinterested in bringing

1:19:26people to Bangor who are fully

1:19:28disinterested in eventually moving

1:19:31forward. Um, and so I think if like if

1:19:34you're going to come here and live in

1:19:36the woods with a group of people and not

1:19:39follow any rule and you're never going

1:19:41to seek recovery and it's I I'm not

1:19:45interested um in in trying to manage

1:19:50that. And so I think personally like if

1:19:52you're another [clears throat] city and

1:19:54that's what you're sending somebody here

1:19:55who fits that bill,

1:19:58send them back is my my view.

1:20:01>> Come for me.

1:20:03I keep going back to your statement that

1:20:05mental health is a far bigger problem

1:20:07than

1:20:08>> that certainly won't be

1:20:08>> drug addiction which you know it's hard

1:20:11to say which came first chicken or the

1:20:13egg because a lot of times they go hand

1:20:14in hand

1:20:15>> for sure

1:20:15>> we recently had conversation at one of

1:20:18our meetings regarding Dorothy Dicks

1:20:20which as we know has been sitting

1:20:23>> empty for so long and we had discussed

1:20:27possibly making some sort of a bid for

1:20:30some of the properties there which I

1:20:32mean over the years everyone has thought

1:20:34this every new council member thinks

1:20:36this and we've never been able to do

1:20:38anything with it if we were to be

1:20:41successful to gain access to a building.

1:20:45My thought at that meeting just kind of

1:20:46came out of nowhere was is there some

1:20:48interim between a mental health facility

1:20:51and a jail?

1:20:52>> Yes. And

1:20:54>> and are these successful elsewhere and

1:20:56what would that facility look like? they

1:20:57they are indeed successful elsewhere and

1:20:59I think uh CHCS has just opened up a

1:21:02program uh smaller in size than what

1:21:05you're referencing it may indeed be uh

1:21:07align with what you're thinking but I

1:21:10don't know that capacity of it you know

1:21:12we're talking I think the capacity of

1:21:14that program will be exceeded shortly um

1:21:18[clears throat] we as we talked about

1:21:20earlier are serving a region not a

1:21:21community um we're trying to solve this

1:21:24at the community level while trying to

1:21:25solve a large region region's problem.

1:21:28So I think it's a capacity issue but uh

1:21:31yes jail is not the is not the answer

1:21:34for most all individuals we engage and

1:21:37the hospital uh is not either in

1:21:40emergency department something in the

1:21:42middle is the right solution for a lot

1:21:44of the people we

1:21:46can I just offer something the other

1:21:48thing that we're seeing with people who

1:21:49are experiencing mental health

1:21:50challenges you know there's a wide range

1:21:52right and I from our experience is that

1:21:56there are people who just need to be in

1:21:58a stable environment to be on medication

1:22:00to manage their mental health and just

1:22:02with good medication management and

1:22:05support that would then provide the

1:22:07stability and they wouldn't be engaging

1:22:09with law enforcement and they wouldn't

1:22:11be engaging in some other the emergency

1:22:13departments in the same way. So like

1:22:15just getting them to a place and

1:22:16sometimes what we're also finding is

1:22:18maybe it's someone who needs to go into

1:22:19assisted living. They don't need to be

1:22:20hospitalized at a at a location like

1:22:22Dorothy Dick. We don't even have sort of

1:22:25like all the avenues to be able to

1:22:28support people at each part of the sort

1:22:30of spectrum of mental health challenges.

1:22:34>> Good point.

1:22:35>> Thank you.

1:22:37>> Two questions if I may. Um, one is at

1:22:41what point does something like drug

1:22:43court get introduced?

1:22:47>> That's a prosecutor's decision.

1:22:49>> Okay. So if we charge somebody with a

1:22:51crime, if they

1:22:53demonstrate they have a an addiction or

1:22:55substance abuse issue, that's the

1:22:56prosecution.

1:22:58>> Okay. Um, my other question is a year

1:23:01ago, a little over a year ago, I sat

1:23:03down and talked to you and you said in

1:23:06general Bangor is a safe city and like I

1:23:10know that the the way that we track have

1:23:13tracked stats, crime stats in the past

1:23:15was a little different than other cities

1:23:17which kind of skewed the results.

1:23:20Would you say today the same thing that

1:23:24Bangor is is generally a safe city?

1:23:26>> Yes.

1:23:29We have to put this in context. We are

1:23:30in a very very night. We have some

1:23:34challenges. Every community of our size

1:23:36is struggling with some level of of

1:23:38challenge. We seem to have a

1:23:40disproportionate number of folks that

1:23:41are that are struggling with a variety

1:23:43of issues in Bangor. Um but

1:23:47again, we really do receive a large

1:23:50regions of the most sick and vulnerable.

1:23:53But is Bangor safe? Yes, Bangor is a

1:23:55safe community. I go out in Bangor and I

1:23:58don't necessarily always see uh what I

1:24:02might hear about through social media.

1:24:04When I go downtown for breakfast on

1:24:06Saturday, I see uh baby carries. I see

1:24:09folks jogging. I see people with kids

1:24:11downtown and I I don't see the violence

1:24:16and the aggression and things that that

1:24:18I'm led to believe that are occurring.

1:24:20Yes, I do see panhandling. I do see that

1:24:22and I know that makes people feel

1:24:24uncomfortable. don't know that

1:24:25uncomfortable is always unsafe. I would

1:24:28love to remove the uncomfortable feeling

1:24:29that people people sense because I think

1:24:32that then they would feel safe but I

1:24:34don't know that in every instance we

1:24:36could do that. But is Bangor safe? Yes.

1:24:38I I can assure you that in most all

1:24:41instances Bangor is a safe community.

1:24:44There's always a pocket of of of issue.

1:24:46When we have violence, one person on

1:24:48another in most all instances, not every

1:24:52distance, [clears throat] those people

1:24:54know each other. Um, is it safe to go

1:24:57downtown this evening? It is safe to go

1:24:59downtown this evening. Will you

1:25:01encounter somebody that might make you

1:25:03feel uncomfortable or make you feel

1:25:05uneasy? It's possible. I don't know, but

1:25:07it is possible. Can we remove that? I

1:25:09hope in time we can. I hope the time we

1:25:12can, but there's a lot more good going

1:25:15on in Bangor than best and sometimes we

1:25:19seem to focus just on the bad when

1:25:21really I think we did spend some time

1:25:23focusing on the good as well.

1:25:26>> Thank you.

1:25:26>> on profession.

1:25:28>> It's kind of frustrating counselor for

1:25:31three years we hear two different

1:25:32things. I I hear from people booth on

1:25:37the ground sort of say somewhat related

1:25:39to some type of of service uh to the

1:25:42unhoused. Then we hear you know we have

1:25:4540 30 40 new faces. The majority of them

1:25:48most likely not. And yet you know our

1:25:52service providers come and say they're

1:25:53all Bangors. Well they're not all

1:25:55Bangors. I've come to the conclusion I

1:25:57love you Jen but I just cannot believe

1:26:00that maybe half of them are from Bangor.

1:26:02And uh so then we have the problem of

1:26:05how do we address that and control that

1:26:07better. I know we're a service center.

1:26:09They're going to come here. But somehow

1:26:10we have to come up with a way of better

1:26:13somehow uh filtering this out and coming

1:26:15up with with a solution. Uh so we can

1:26:19get a handle on it and and so that's

1:26:22that's a bit frustrating. And maybe I

1:26:24hang out with the wrong people, but I

1:26:26will tell you every day someone is

1:26:28telling me they left a restaurant

1:26:30downtown and they were aggressively they

1:26:32just didn't see someone that was acting

1:26:34strange. They were it was an aggressive

1:26:37scary interaction that things were being

1:26:40taken off from their porch. I mean,

1:26:42every day, you know, when you're

1:26:44recognized as council, they're going to

1:26:46tell you someone in my own family last

1:26:48week was chest buttoned and basically

1:26:51lost his balance. And thank God it was

1:26:53him, not me. Petite person coming out of

1:26:55a closing. And every day people are

1:26:58reaching out and telling us their

1:27:00stories. So, you know, maybe in a

1:27:04certain block or two, but I won't go

1:27:06walk my dog anymore at night unless Tim

1:27:08goes with me. I personally don't feel

1:27:10safe to go out in the dark by myself

1:27:12with my dog. So, um, you know, I

1:27:15appreciate, you know, your perception

1:27:17and yes, I love Bangor. There's a lot of

1:27:19good. I think we'll get past this.

1:27:22And um but I I just think that people

1:27:25get more angry when they hear us as the

1:27:27leader say, "Well, you just happen to

1:27:29have an incident." Well, you know, it

1:27:32makes you uncomfortable. That doesn't

1:27:33mean you're unsafe. You know, I think if

1:27:36they feel unsafe, that's a problem.

1:27:38Whether we want to make the opinion they

1:27:41are or not, if they're feeling unsafe,

1:27:43and a lot of our residents are feeling

1:27:44unsafe.

1:27:46So, you know, I don't know. So, I would

1:27:48like to take up that discussion again

1:27:50about emergency if that's what it takes

1:27:52to get the states uh attention and we

1:27:55can get some kind of action to help our

1:27:56fleas department because they do work

1:27:59hard. They're out there. They're they're

1:28:01got the boots on the grounds and they're

1:28:02the ones trying to handle the problem

1:28:04that we need to come up with being

1:28:06better partners to help them.

1:28:09So, I would like to have more discussion

1:28:11about that. Um, I don't know if we can

1:28:14put that back on the agenda or how we

1:28:17can do that.

1:28:19Have the opportunity.

1:28:23>> Make a note about that. Um, question I

1:28:27had just to kind of put things in

1:28:28perspective. How many contacts would you

1:28:31say the police department makes a year

1:28:33under this protocol?

1:28:36>> Where did I get that information? So, I

1:28:37I don't know that I can give you a

1:28:39factual number. Um,

1:28:42I don't think I can give you an exact

1:28:43number.

1:28:44>> If I guess if you had to guess, is there

1:28:47a percentage in your mind of how many of

1:28:50these contacts are repeat? You

1:28:52mentioned, you know, you know who the

1:28:53repeat offenders are. How many do you

1:28:54think we're we're dealing with there? I

1:28:57think there's a sizable number of repeat

1:28:59offenders. Yes. I I feel is that this

1:29:02has been an unusual summer and I get I I

1:29:05gain this information from both talking

1:29:07to the street officer and BCAT

1:29:09responders that they have seen an influx

1:29:12of of new works this summer at a higher

1:29:14rate than veterans than previously. Um

1:29:17speaking with the BCAT responders this

1:29:19morning, she told me that uh there seems

1:29:22to be a shift in early summer they

1:29:24started seeing new and new and new

1:29:26faces. She said, "We we are drive down

1:29:29the street during the course of the day

1:29:31and we see new people when they stop and

1:29:32engage them and it's people they've

1:29:34never seen before and that happens every

1:29:35day." And she said that was not so much

1:29:37like that last summer. It's something

1:29:39that came to fruition [clears throat]

1:29:40this summer. That's her observation and

1:29:43uh that would align with what a lot of

1:29:45our officers are saying. We do know what

1:29:47quality are. We have people that are

1:29:49that are living in our homeless

1:29:50community that have been here for a

1:29:51number of years, but we are seeing a new

1:29:53cluster of new folks. Uh we moved a

1:29:56group along on the railroad tracks a few

1:29:58weeks ago and

1:30:03that was a month after

1:30:09request. One month later this people who

1:30:11we've never engaged before we did not

1:30:13know who they were. So again it's a

1:30:16messaging issue. People are coming to

1:30:18our community from other areas. Um and

1:30:20it's overwhelming the resources that we

1:30:23currently have.

1:30:25And one of the things I heard you say

1:30:26earlier is that this protocol isn't

1:30:28hindering the the department's work. If

1:30:31the legislature tomorrow was to come

1:30:33back in session and just repeal the

1:30:35whole thing and say, you know what, you

1:30:36don't need to have a a homeless protocol

1:30:38anymore.

1:30:39What would change in Bangor? Anything?

1:30:42Well, the only portion of that policy I

1:30:44think that people are interested in is

1:30:45the is the usable possession possession,

1:30:48right? They take someone with a needle

1:30:50or or [clears throat] shooting up in the

1:30:52park. Um, and that's the that's the

1:30:54issue that I think most people see and

1:30:56most people want police action on. Um,

1:30:59changing this policy, if you if you

1:31:01remove that from this policy, it would

1:31:03be a clearer path for us, but it doesn't

1:31:05necessarily hinder us. Uh, it's the

1:31:07process that hinders us. Again, it's a

1:31:09it's a it's a classy misdemeanor

1:31:12violation. It's a citation. We have to

1:31:14seize the uh the syringe. Uh, it's $200

1:31:17to $300 to have that tested. Um,

1:31:20introduce him into the court system.

1:31:22It's unclear if the prosecutor's office

1:31:24will write a complaint on that or will

1:31:26they simply dismiss it out of hand

1:31:28because they just do not have the time

1:31:30to prosecute that. If they do prosecute

1:31:32it, then we will go forward with the

1:31:34drug testing. The officer will have to

1:31:36appear in court and um that's what we

1:31:38do. That is our job. Whether or not we

1:31:41have the policy or not, if we had uh

1:31:43sufficient staffing, we would be doing

1:31:45this now. Last summer, I had this

1:31:48conversation with a recently with a

1:31:50council candidate. Last summer, uh we

1:31:52were full staff and uh we had a

1:31:55three-person team that did nothing but

1:31:57focus on neighborhood drug sales and

1:32:00they were all over it to the point where

1:32:02I was getting calls from other police

1:32:04departments, other police chiefs asking,

1:32:06"What are you guys doing over there?"

1:32:07But what we were doing, it was

1:32:08messaging. We were pushing some of these

1:32:10drug deals out of Bangalore. Uh they

1:32:12were very aggressive. We are down nine

1:32:16right now. We were down 11 just a short

1:32:18time ago. We do not have that unit right

1:32:20now. Uh we just don't have the staffing.

1:32:22When we get back to close to full

1:32:24staffing, we will indeed have that unit

1:32:26again. I think I've suggested to some of

1:32:28you, I certainly had this conversation

1:32:29with the city manager. Um there may be

1:32:32an opportunity for me to come forward

1:32:34with uh during the next budget

1:32:35preparation and seek uh a few more

1:32:38officers

1:32:39to develop a dedicated neighborhood drug

1:32:42unit that would work in partnership as a

1:32:44resident with a resident agent uh

1:32:46resident agents I'm sorry with main drug

1:32:48and I've already talked to main about

1:32:49this. Uh we're ready to go with that. We

1:32:51just need people. We it's a people game.

1:32:54It's not a our pay our sal our pay is is

1:32:57competitive. Our schedule's good. We

1:32:59offer a variety of opportunities for for

1:33:01folks. Um it's a good profession. We're

1:33:04just not seeing the applicants. I had

1:33:07there was a chief's meeting at the at

1:33:08the cross center last week and I was

1:33:11having conversations with chiefs from

1:33:12all over state and everybody is

1:33:14struggling for the most part. I mean the

1:33:16Portland

1:33:18old town everybody is struggling with

1:33:20some level of staffing issue. It's just

1:33:22it's a people game. We'll get back to

1:33:24it. When we're full staff, this

1:33:26conversation will likely not occur. What

1:33:28you'll hear from your residents and

1:33:29folks that feel unsafe is they feel much

1:33:31better because they're seeing us in the

1:33:33neighborhoods. It is indeed the

1:33:35neighborhood where we need to be. We'll

1:33:36get back to it.

1:33:39>> Councelor Morer and then councelor

1:33:40Carson,

1:33:42>> how many encampments do you say we have?

1:33:45Would you say we have now?

1:33:46>> I think we have a large

1:33:49>> very few.

1:33:52We are on top of it. So not at all.

1:33:55>> So we are moving them out.

1:33:57>> Yeah.

1:33:59>> Yeah.

1:33:59>> Yeah.

1:33:59>> Because I remember that that was

1:34:00something the city manager asked that

1:34:03there be no more encampments.

1:34:04>> Well, it you know this time of year it's

1:34:06certain that we stay on top of things.

1:34:07So we don't have encampments large in we

1:34:11can engage and work with a smaller like

1:34:14you say to large. Can I just add that I

1:34:17think there's a really good relationship

1:34:19between the enforcement of BCAT and

1:34:21police and then our team to go in and

1:34:23provide resources and I think has been

1:34:25very effective.

1:34:26>> So at the current time you'd say there

1:34:28are how many encampment individual

1:34:30encampments at any one time in the last

1:34:34couple of months?

1:34:35>> I don't know.

1:34:37>> I would say there are pockets that have

1:34:40developed but that have been quickly

1:34:41moved on within.

1:34:42>> There are no continuous ones. I'm not

1:34:45aware of that. I'm not I'm not to say

1:34:47the jurist.

1:34:47>> No, no. I'm just I'm just asking because

1:34:49I hear from people about this group of

1:34:52people there and other I just wondered

1:34:54if it was okay. They're there for a few

1:34:56days and then moved, which is what I

1:34:58hope's going on. I would hate to think

1:35:00they've been there for two months and

1:35:02haven't been moved.

1:35:02>> I think there are pockets,

1:35:04>> but there shouldn't be.

1:35:05>> Yeah. When we find out about when we

1:35:06learn about it.

1:35:07>> So, what you need is more help from the

1:35:08general [clears throat] public to tell

1:35:09you where the pockets are.

1:35:11>> Yeah. We the public can hold them. Yeah,

1:35:14for sure. If if the public calls up, we

1:35:16receive through a cit right terminology.

1:35:19Uh we have an anonymous line uh email. I

1:35:22get a lot of email, but yeah, the public

1:35:24got engaged and if there's an issue, uh

1:35:26we can we can address it.

1:35:28>> But getting back to that, you want the

1:35:31public to inform you of encampments,

1:35:33whether it's a single or multiple.

1:35:36>> Absolutely.

1:35:37>> I just want to make sure that the public

1:35:39>> Yes.

1:35:40>> hears it.

1:35:40>> Absolutely. Council Garson and then

1:35:44councelor Walker.

1:35:46>> Um

1:35:48the the question of safety in which I

1:35:51realize that everybody has a different

1:35:54threshold for what they consider to be

1:35:57safe or not safe. Um and I I realize

1:36:01that even changes for people. You know,

1:36:02I know people who will tell me that they

1:36:05don't feel safe in their neighborhood,

1:36:06but will take a weekend trip to a city

1:36:09that I know they see far more dangerous

1:36:12things every five steps that they're

1:36:14taking in that city, you know, before

1:36:16they come home. And so I do realize that

1:36:18that, you know, that's movable. It

1:36:20changes. What are things that we can do

1:36:22as a council, maybe policy-wise, maybe

1:36:25informationwise

1:36:27to help people to feel more safe outside

1:36:29of the enforcement question? Well, I

1:36:32think for it's really on us and for us

1:36:34it's visibility, right? If you see the

1:36:36police officers in your neighborhood,

1:36:38then you have a sense of safety. Um, and

1:36:40it's right back to what I just said

1:36:42about just a moment ago. It's a numbers

1:36:44issue. It's a people issue. When we're

1:36:46at full staff, you see us in

1:36:48neighborhoods. And I feel like when you

1:36:50see a police officer, you see a police

1:36:51car driving through your neighborhood

1:36:52parked on the corner and you feel more

1:36:54safe. And good behavior drives out bad

1:36:58behavior. the more things that we have

1:36:59going on in our neighborhoods that that

1:37:02are are good activities, it drives out

1:37:04bad behavior. But I don't know what I

1:37:08can call on all of you to do other than

1:37:11to continue to be supportive of us of

1:37:13the police department and help us um you

1:37:16know develop new police officers and and

1:37:19and and grow our staff. Uh, and I don't

1:37:23necessarily mean grow our staff above

1:37:24what you've authorized us to have, just

1:37:26help us get to our minimum staffing.

1:37:28Just at our minimum staffing where we're

1:37:30supposed to be right now, you'll see a

1:37:32market. Uh, last summer was a great

1:37:35example of that. We'll get back to

1:37:37struggling. We are struggling to find

1:37:39suitable candidates. So, you can talk us

1:37:41up and u I mean, we are the place to

1:37:44work if you want to. Listen, we were

1:37:46talking about Brewer earlier and I want

1:37:47to say that Brewer is a is a phenomenal

1:37:49police department and some of those

1:37:50folks work for us, but they have a very

1:37:52very good police department.

1:37:55We just we're we're just a little bit

1:37:57bigger. We offer more opportunities and

1:37:59if you want to be a police officer, this

1:38:01is where we want to work and somebody's

1:38:03interested in watching right now, we

1:38:04want you. So, come come see us and it

1:38:07may well very well be an awesome career

1:38:09for you. Just to follow up or close my

1:38:11comment, if you think of something else

1:38:13that we can do as counselors in addition

1:38:15to supporting you and helping you

1:38:18accomplish that goal, please let us

1:38:20know.

1:38:20>> Absolutely. Expeditious.

1:38:22>> Yeah, Council Walker and then Counc

1:38:24>> um yes, I'll be brief. Um the what what

1:38:28constitutes an encampment?

1:38:30Well,

1:38:30>> it's a good question. I don't know. I

1:38:31mean I mean I think what you're

1:38:33referencing is when we have an

1:38:35encampment we like 10 or 12 people that

1:38:37that's too big. Too big.

1:38:39>> [clears throat]

1:38:39>> You know, it's not uncommon for someone

1:38:41to call us and say, "We saw I see three

1:38:43tents out in the field." Um I don't

1:38:46that's not really an encampment. That's

1:38:48two or three people that are camping out

1:38:49there and we'll engage them and try to

1:38:51help them find better options. Um you

1:38:54know, encampment, you might think of an

1:38:56encampment as a large number of people

1:38:58um all in one small area. And we don't

1:39:01we're not experiencing that right now,

1:39:03but do we have pockets? I'm sure we do.

1:39:05I'm sure somebody is watching this right

1:39:07now that knows where there is four or

1:39:09five tents that we do not know about. If

1:39:12they were to call us and tell us, we'll

1:39:13address it. I'm certain if that is the

1:39:15case. Yes.

1:39:16>> So, just to follow, the reason I was

1:39:18asking that is because of the park

1:39:20across from the police station. Um I'm

1:39:22wondering like does it have to be

1:39:24visible tents that are out? Can it be

1:39:26these tarps that are going up? Yeah, we

1:39:28don't allow that

1:39:29>> with

1:39:30>> so tarps and tents. We're we do take

1:39:34those down. Now, do we see it every

1:39:35time?

1:39:37>> Please remember we are not monitoring. I

1:39:39know it's right across the police

1:39:40station. That's um we're not necessarily

1:39:43watching it every second and running

1:39:44over there every time you see that,

1:39:46>> but we do not allow and and the park

1:39:48rangers are on top of this. We don't

1:39:50allow tents, no tarps, not you know,

1:39:52structured and we just don't allow

1:39:54structures generally in parks ever.

1:39:58um it's not permissible and if we see it

1:39:59we'll we will ask them to dismantle it

1:40:01and move

1:40:03other behaviors are not you know they're

1:40:06not necessarily breaking the law

1:40:07violating an ordinance a lot of the

1:40:09folks you see at dep park are indeed not

1:40:12without shelter they're either staying

1:40:15at the shelter or the shaw house or they

1:40:18live on second street third street this

1:40:20is a social event in many instances at

1:40:23park

1:40:24um So, some of the folks we engage there

1:40:28aren't necessarily all in the in the

1:40:32homeless community. Uh, some are are

1:40:34indeed there because they're friends.

1:40:37They may have been in the homeless

1:40:38community at one time and they've

1:40:39remained friends with people that that

1:40:42are unfortunately still in that

1:40:44community. But that's a large number of

1:40:46people. If you go by there on Monday

1:40:47night when um Jericho Road is there,

1:40:50it's a large number of people there. And

1:40:53uh not everybody that's in that line is

1:40:56without a place to go with any routines.

1:40:59>> Dr. Flynn,

1:41:00>> thank you. Um couple of questions.

1:41:03Earlier in the summer, um some of us

1:41:06came down for a tour and then we had a

1:41:07nice conversation after and um one of

1:41:09the things that we talked about is

1:41:11potentially doing a sorry, it's slightly

1:41:13off topic, but related just is related

1:41:15to staffing. uh we talked about

1:41:17potentially um offering some hiring

1:41:20bonuses or something like that. Would

1:41:22would that help and has that

1:41:23conversation

1:41:24>> Well, you might remember we uh we

1:41:25approached you at the end of the last

1:41:27budget and you allowed us to carry over

1:41:30with funding, right?

1:41:31>> So, that has been very helpful and

1:41:34that's a retention. We are now very

1:41:37competitive with other police

1:41:39departments. So, that has helped a great

1:41:41deal. Um, I don't know, uh, in speaking

1:41:44with others that the bonuses necessarily

1:41:46work. And I'll share with you that I I

1:41:48do struggle with giving somebody I don't

1:41:50know money versus the person that I do

1:41:53know that's been working with us and

1:41:55working for us and working overtime and

1:41:57coming in on the evenings when they

1:41:59really wanted to go to the movie. So,

1:42:02giving somebody money that I've never

1:42:03met versus in uh, you know, giving the

1:42:07money that you authorize to folk that

1:42:09that are actually getting the job done.

1:42:11Um, I like the incentivizing employees

1:42:14and retaining our good folk. We have a

1:42:16great deal of money in our people and we

1:42:18have to some exceptionally wellkilled

1:42:21people. We just got to keep them and

1:42:22find more people like them. So allowing

1:42:25us to carry over the money we did from

1:42:27the last budget proved very helpful.

1:42:30And I and I I

1:42:33must say that I can't say we'll be back

1:42:36to ask you again someday. Who knows? Who

1:42:39knows if it if it's successful then uh

1:42:41we try again

1:42:44but it we're very competitive our

1:42:47starting wage is very competitive with

1:42:48with other police actions that that we

1:42:50compete with.

1:42:51>> How much of an issue was it um for you

1:42:55and even other departments losing um

1:42:57officers to ICE because they give a

1:43:00pretty good signing bonus. So we have we

1:43:03have had two officers that that moved

1:43:05into federal employment but not

1:43:07necessarily with ICE. We've not lost

1:43:10anybody uh that type of employment.

1:43:12Sometimes we lose officers. They want to

1:43:14go work in a smaller agency. U they're

1:43:17not necessarily enamored with the type

1:43:19of call, you know, with vagrancy calls

1:43:21and and those related calls. Or some

1:43:24people just leave the profession all

1:43:25together. they just they they go into,

1:43:27you know, carpentry work, construction

1:43:29work. They, you know, do something

1:43:31totally different. Um

1:43:34the the the game right now is retention.

1:43:37That's where we need to focus. We'll

1:43:39find quality people as time goes on, but

1:43:42ret retaining our good people is the is

1:43:44the objective right now. And I I think

1:43:47we will

1:43:51>> I want to be mindful of time because I

1:43:53know we already put uh councelor Fish's

1:43:55stuff off last time. I don't um but I

1:43:58just wanted to say I hear you loud and

1:44:00clear about the system being broken

1:44:01about this and you know talking with the

1:44:03legislative committee. It's work where

1:44:05we can do to tell Bangor's story to our

1:44:07legislators and and really make some

1:44:10changes at the state level to to help us

1:44:12out. Um, and I appreciate all that the

1:44:14police department is doing. Appreciate

1:44:16everyone who's doing, you know, work

1:44:18people are doing in this this space. Um,

1:44:21and and it's a struggle and certainly,

1:44:24you know, appreciate the opportunity to

1:44:25review this and discuss it.

1:44:28I don't think there's anything we need

1:44:29from the committee at this point. It was

1:44:30just a discussion.

1:44:33>> Okay, let's move on to the next item.

1:44:35Thank you, Chief. Hi, Chief.

1:44:36>> Thank you, director.

1:44:39>> All right. And so let's uh discuss now

1:44:41the counter requested items for

1:44:42consideration from counter fish and

1:44:44counter fish. Is it okay with you? Uh

1:44:46can we uh do one at a time and pause for

1:44:48questions and move on?

1:44:50>> We'll do one topic at a time.

1:44:52>> Sure. What I what I think I'd do just

1:44:55kind of maybe abbreviate this if you

1:44:57don't mind. we fund for office and I try

1:44:59to I got some notes on here but I can

1:45:02follow up with an eBay mail for everyone

1:45:03or get it to the city court to share um

1:45:06so that you have you know this kind of

1:45:09got a one sentence uh so take it away

1:45:11and where would you like to start?

1:45:13>> Sure. Uh well the first item on the memo

1:45:15here is a a shopping cart accountability

1:45:18ordinance.

1:45:19So, uh, in my research, some of the

1:45:21other towns, we've talked before about

1:45:23the shopping shopping cart, um, you

1:45:25know, being sort of trashed and debris

1:45:28and our city, um, works are picking them

1:45:30up or the businesses don't know what to

1:45:33do with them. There's been, um,

1:45:35different policies and ordinances and

1:45:37and I will again provide these, uh, in

1:45:39an email to you that prohibits um,

1:45:42taking shopping carts. So, an ordinance

1:45:44prohibits taking cards cards off store

1:45:47property without authorization. Um, and

1:45:50it requires businesses to retrieve their

1:45:53abandoned card. So, if they're given

1:45:55notice, they have 24 to 72 hours for

1:45:57them themselves to go retrieve the car

1:45:59instead of just saying, "No, I don't

1:46:00want it." Um there's an imponment where

1:46:05uh the city can collect um the abandoned

1:46:09property and then charge a minimal fee

1:46:12if the cart has an identification on it.

1:46:16Um

1:46:17there's a potential uh registration or

1:46:21fee registration fee so that anyone that

1:46:23has 10 or 15 carts or more. So small

1:46:26businesses that just have a few wouldn't

1:46:28be burdened with a fee. But the bigger

1:46:30shopping centers, what have you, would

1:46:32have um a fee associated with the cards.

1:46:36Um sometimes a fee in some of the towns,

1:46:39they told me the fee is waved if that

1:46:41facility locks them down and controls

1:46:43controls it a little bit better. Um so I

1:46:47can write these down. Uh I I like the

1:46:49one not hurt our small businesses with a

1:46:52a minimum shopping cart. Uh but I will

1:46:56um give you guys a little more

1:46:57information with the different ideas

1:46:59other towns had on shopping carts where

1:47:01they came up before. Um and I think that

1:47:05that was it on the

1:47:06>> shopping.

1:47:10I'm not opposed to cracking down the

1:47:12shopping carts. They are a problem. But

1:47:14in this research,

1:47:17>> once the shopping carts are taken away,

1:47:19what are the inhouse utilizing to move

1:47:22their possessions from place to place?

1:47:24>> Um, good question. And there was some

1:47:26ordinances that if there's personal

1:47:28belongings, they would be handled

1:47:29similar to what we do now where um they

1:47:32are taken to um a a place, maybe the

1:47:36police station, for so long. Uh

1:47:38sometimes there's a notification left

1:47:40where they've picked up the card and if

1:47:42they've taken the card away. Uh they

1:47:44also have to search the item sometimes

1:47:47because sometimes there's dangerous

1:47:48items within uh within those contents.

1:47:51So uh there are a couple of um really

1:47:54reasonable and short policies about what

1:47:56to do with personal property you're

1:47:58found in a car. Follow

1:47:59>> from there. I know I mentioned it was

1:48:01sort of a joke, but if you don't have a

1:48:03shopping cart, you probably need a

1:48:04suitcase or something. How how are they

1:48:09going to

1:48:11move their items?

1:48:13>> These are abandoned.

1:48:14>> Okay. [clears throat]

1:48:15>> But when people are actually using them,

1:48:17it's the same thing. They're walking

1:48:19through town, they have a shopping cart.

1:48:21I'm assuming that we would crack down on

1:48:23that as well.

1:48:23>> Sue that because I think we don't want

1:48:27to make a vulnerable person suffer more

1:48:31great. These this was primarily the

1:48:33abandoned cards that I could research.

1:48:39I guess my question is and I don't know

1:48:43if we have this information and I don't

1:48:44even know who this question is for maybe

1:48:47Chief Hathaway but um I I'll ask it like

1:48:50how much of a problem is this and are we

1:48:53finding a lot of abandoned carts and or

1:48:56are we getting a lot of calls or is it

1:48:58you know just like a cart here and a

1:49:00cart there?

1:49:02>> Just put a lightsaber on.

1:49:05I knew that. That's why [laughter]

1:49:09>> problem.

1:49:10There's shopping carts and I understand

1:49:12that in some cases the shopping carts is

1:49:15the only form of mobility for some of

1:49:16these folks. But [snorts] it is indeed a

1:49:18problem. We receive a lot of complaints

1:49:20about shopping carts. Most certainly

1:49:22when they're abandoned or seem

1:49:24abandoned, the person leaves it, say at

1:49:27the park or on the on the eye, comes in

1:49:30with a with a good indicator they're

1:49:33coming back for it, but it it's not

1:49:35pleasing to the eye. Um, certainly we

1:49:37get calls about it. So, it is a problem.

1:49:39Yes.

1:49:39>> And can I follow up? So I guess my

1:49:42question is like I mean when I think of

1:49:45an abandoned cart I think of like an

1:49:47empty cart that's you know thrown in a

1:49:49stream or something but sometimes that's

1:49:51not the case and they may be coming

1:49:53back. And so the issue to me is that

1:49:57it's an eyesore that people don't like.

1:49:59But if we enact something like this,

1:50:02those carts are just going to get

1:50:03replaced with a a wagon or a suitcase or

1:50:07something and we're still going to have

1:50:09that problem of people complaining about

1:50:11it because we're just replacing one

1:50:13issue with another and and the issue is

1:50:15that it's unsightly

1:50:18>> comments. Yeah. So, um, for me, and I

1:50:22appreciate counselor Fish, um, just

1:50:25mentioning, you know, like we would not

1:50:26want to take a cart away from somebody

1:50:28who's like using it to move their life

1:50:30around. I recognize that I or my my

1:50:34opinion on this is that I think that the

1:50:36one of the primary drivers is that

1:50:42um, places with shopping carts do not

1:50:45want to be a victim. So, there's no s

1:50:47there is no theft of a shopping cart.

1:50:49That's not a real thing that can happen

1:50:51because for theft to happen, you have to

1:50:53have a victim, right? So, if you come to

1:50:55my house tonight to steal my car and I

1:50:57call the police department

1:50:58[clears throat] and then I change my

1:51:00mind and I say, "Well, actually, you

1:51:01know, I don't really care." There's no

1:51:03victim and they're not going to go

1:51:06retrieve my car and they're not going to

1:51:07press forward on that. And so, that's

1:51:08what's happening, I think, with these

1:51:11shopping, you know, anywhere that has

1:51:12cards is they do not want to be a

1:51:15victim, right? Officially, that's a

1:51:17public image problem. That's a branding

1:51:19problem. And so,

1:51:22um, I also, you know, live on a street

1:51:24where there are a lot of abandoned

1:51:25shopping carts. People use them to

1:51:27transport stuff and then they don't use

1:51:29them ever again. Um, and interestingly

1:51:31enough, like I live next to a house

1:51:33where people will go to the store and

1:51:35get a shopping cart to bring their

1:51:36groceries home, but never take the

1:51:38grocery cart back when they go to the

1:51:40store again to get more groceries. So,

1:51:42there's like 15 carts um on my street if

1:51:45anybody's looking for them. So for me, I

1:51:48think that the way to go about this

1:51:49would be to enact a registration or fee

1:51:52system, you know, where um where a fee

1:51:56can be charged, a fine can be charged to

1:51:58the company if there's branding on cart

1:52:01that would help us to recuperate the

1:52:03cost of public works actually going out

1:52:05and doing this work of collecting them

1:52:07or if it's the police department,

1:52:08whoever is collecting them. There's a

1:52:09staff cost to that. So, I think that

1:52:12would be um for me I would I would

1:52:16support something like that because it

1:52:17would help us to fund the cleanup that's

1:52:20already happening.

1:52:22>> Dr.

1:52:23>> I guess my only concern with that is

1:52:25that we are penalizing the victims of a

1:52:28crime by doing that.

1:52:30Council fish.

1:52:32>> I think the point of it wasn't really

1:52:34more or less, you know, punishing a

1:52:36victim is accountability,

1:52:37responsibility, accountability to the

1:52:38businesses themselves that seem to be uh

1:52:41negligible about participating in

1:52:43cleaning up the carts that they're

1:52:44supplying. And uh and then it's left to

1:52:47public works and a lot of residents have

1:52:49complained. We've had we had what

1:52:50prompted this was months ago, if not

1:52:52maybe last year, we had a pretty lengthy

1:52:55conversation about the abandoned

1:52:57shopping carts. So uh I felt that this

1:53:00was a mild yet we were taking

1:53:01responsibility as leaders to provide an

1:53:04ordinance to give guidance as to how to

1:53:08how to handle this.

1:53:09>> Well what I would say too is you when we

1:53:12had the company last year I looking into

1:53:14it what I found fascinating that other

1:53:16communities have done is they said hey

1:53:18if you want to have a shopping cart

1:53:20there was a registration vault but they

1:53:21require the business to have some kind

1:53:23of anti- theft. Like you look at Shaws

1:53:26where their carts get shut down when

1:53:27they go over that magic line and you

1:53:29know again I'm not everywhere in the

1:53:31city but I've not seen Shaw's cards get

1:53:32pushed around. Um you know even the

1:53:35Dollar Tree at you know third and Union

1:53:37you know like they got the big long pole

1:53:38that you can't let you work it out the

1:53:40door. You know someone's going to notice

1:53:42you're trying to make off with a a cart.

1:53:44So you know I'm I like that kind of

1:53:47idea. you know, there's a way to work

1:53:49that into an ordinance of, you know, if

1:53:50you want if your shop is so big that

1:53:52people need shopping carts to get around

1:53:55a shop, well, this is part of that.

1:53:57Whereas, if that's not going to work for

1:53:58you and you can't afford to register

1:54:00them, well, then hand baskets. Um, and I

1:54:03think that that, you know, that way

1:54:04there it also doesn't, you know, we've

1:54:07all agreed that we don't want to

1:54:08penalize the person who's just using it,

1:54:10you know, the moment. We're just worried

1:54:11about once in an abandoned, then it

1:54:13becomes a safety issue and a and a in a,

1:54:16you know, in blight. Um, and I think

1:54:18that, you know, we did something like

1:54:19that, you know, we would slowly see as

1:54:22these abandoned carts are taken away,

1:54:24they're not being replaced by new cards

1:54:26because everyone's doing something to

1:54:28protect them from theft. So, I'm

1:54:30certainly open to to that avenue.

1:54:32>> Okay. In my email, I'll kind of um

1:54:36categorize these in bullet as little

1:54:38things that I found from other

1:54:39municipalities for future consideration.

1:54:42>> Any other questions or comments on this

1:54:44item? I can't

1:54:45>> just a quick uh thought. Um Aldi down in

1:54:49Portland has a system where you put a

1:54:52quarter in to get your cart and you have

1:54:56to bring your cart back to get your

1:54:57quarter back. And I think they don't

1:55:00have that much of a problem with the

1:55:02carts not being returned and it's only a

1:55:04quarter.

1:55:07>> Okay. Uh so the next topic is the out of

1:55:09town unhoused placement policy.

1:55:12>> Okay. So, um there are um there are a

1:55:16number of parents that have orders of

1:55:18course with our state if they're

1:55:19drilled. There's certain state and

1:55:21federal laws uh that um kind of give you

1:55:24know human trafficking and an obligation

1:55:27through GA and those that are in house

1:55:29that need assistance, but I was looking

1:55:32for something that we could at least

1:55:34propose. It might be hard to enforce,

1:55:36but at least we're sending a message. Um

1:55:39so you know it's called the prohibition

1:55:41of government sponsored unsanctioned

1:55:44transport of homeless persons and that's

1:55:47it unsanctioned. So a lot of communities

1:55:49that either are participating

1:55:52uh somehow even if they might not admit

1:55:56it somehow participating in transporting

1:55:58people here and they're not first making

1:56:01a collaborative effort with the city and

1:56:03then these it's it's no different than

1:56:05human trafficking in my mind. if they

1:56:07send somebody here when that person

1:56:09thinks they're going to get services and

1:56:11they only get off the bus to find out

1:56:13there's no services maybe even less that

1:56:15maybe we could come up with some

1:56:17ordinances um that you know gives us

1:56:20some teeth and some a couple of them

1:56:22that I kind of highlight is it prohibits

1:56:24an officer employee agent from another

1:56:26city county or government entity from

1:56:29transporting an unhouse person and

1:56:31dropping them off um to public another

1:56:34another municipality without further

1:56:37having um uh collaboration.

1:56:40Um, and then it goes there's I I believe

1:56:43state um some state laws and ordinances

1:56:46already say that if another community

1:56:48does collaborate, there's a six-month

1:56:50rule so that if you know a small town

1:56:52Clifton called up and said we can't

1:56:54service these individuals, there's six

1:56:57months GA and then I don't know how it

1:56:59works, but there's some type of GA

1:57:01assistance that could fall within the

1:57:04ordinance to just clarify how long that

1:57:06GA, who's responsible for it, and some

1:57:09protocols we call the town up and we

1:57:11say, "Hey, you have two residents from

1:57:13Missouri that just got busted here and

1:57:16you know, we're going to need to send

1:57:18them back or there's some type of

1:57:19penalty when there's not collaboration.

1:57:21That way, when we have the smaller towns

1:57:23that do need us as a service center,

1:57:25they're at least having an obligation to

1:57:27collaborate." I also thought this would

1:57:29be a good opportunity for us as a

1:57:31council to reach out to our bigger

1:57:34neighborhoods and say, "Hey, we're going

1:57:37to come up with some ordinances, but

1:57:38we'd really like to have a communication

1:57:41collaboration

1:57:42um pipeline be between us." So, this

1:57:46might help um perpetuate and and fuel um

1:57:52greater communication in a more um

1:57:55amicable way to get those communities to

1:57:57come. And then maybe for those that are

1:57:59out of state a little tougher, but um

1:58:01again, I'll kind of bullet some of the

1:58:03highlights that I found that I thought

1:58:04were good ideas and put that in my email

1:58:07that we can share in the public.

1:58:10>> Questions? Council Carson? I don't um I

1:58:13don't necessarily have a question, but I

1:58:14do have a comment on this and I'm very

1:58:16interested in engaging further in this

1:58:18discussion. I've been following along

1:58:20with the homeless committee's continued

1:58:22meetings and this idea of sort of like

1:58:25the hub model, things like that I

1:58:27[clears throat] kind of hear being um

1:58:30tossed about. And so I I do feel like

1:58:32this kind of a conversation really could

1:58:34go hand inand with what I see developing

1:58:37there. for me and I want to agree with

1:58:39you use the human trafficking

1:58:41terminology. I want to agree with that.

1:58:43I want to share a story. Um I think I've

1:58:46shared this story with you but I'll

1:58:48share it with everybody. When I first

1:58:51started my banking career, I started in

1:58:53Cleveland, Ohio and um I was there for a

1:58:56number of years downtown

1:58:59um on Youth Foot Avenue and I got you

1:59:01know we we get to know our our

1:59:03customers. We had a number of homeless

1:59:05customers downtown Cleveland. We were

1:59:07very close to a few of the shelters, the

1:59:09food bank. And so we get to we got to

1:59:12know all all of our customers very well.

1:59:15One in particular, his name is Jerome.

1:59:17And after this meeting, I'll show you a

1:59:19picture if you'd like, but Jerome and I

1:59:21share a birthday. Um, and he was one of

1:59:23our favorites. He was in almost every

1:59:26day. And he clearly had some mental

1:59:28issues. You know, we became accustomed

1:59:30to those. We could tell after many years

1:59:32when Jerome was eating, when he wasn't,

1:59:34when he was on his meds, when he wasn't,

1:59:36when he was in a shelter, when he

1:59:37wasn't, and we came to love him very

1:59:39much. And um Jerome every once in a

1:59:42while would go off of his meds and he

1:59:44would get in fights and then he would

1:59:45disappear for a few days because he'd

1:59:47been captured by the police or or

1:59:49whatever. And so one um near the end of

1:59:52my time in Cleveland, we stopped seeing

1:59:54Jerome in our branch. And weeks went by

1:59:57and we started really looking for this

1:59:59person. and I mean calling banks around

2:00:01the city to find out did anybody know

2:00:03where this person went and we couldn't

2:00:06find Jerome

2:00:08when I first started my then I moved to

2:00:10Boston and I was managing 125 High

2:00:13Street for Bank of America that's right

2:00:15across from International Tower um for

2:00:18people who are familiar with that

2:00:20[clears throat] area of the finance

2:00:21district and in my first week of being

2:00:24employed Jerome walked through the front

2:00:26door

2:00:28and he recognized me and I recognized

2:00:30him and it was a really wonderful moment

2:00:32because we had been looking for this

2:00:34person for a long time. But 700 miles

2:00:37away from where I was looking for

2:00:38Jerome, there was Jerome. So we went

2:00:40into my office and took pictures at

2:00:43least I sent them to all my old

2:00:44co-workers and we called 100 people

2:00:46because that was it was like family for

2:00:48us. But I asked him what in the heck

2:00:51happened here? We did. He went off his

2:00:53medication. He got in a fight downtown

2:00:56Cleveland and a police officer picked

2:00:58him up, drove him to the bus station,

2:01:01bought a ticket, stuck him on a bus and

2:01:03said, "You're going to Boston."

2:01:05So, okay. Was there any discussion about

2:01:07that? No. Did you have any connection to

2:01:10services? No. No. No pre-planning,

2:01:15nothing was arranged for Jerome. It

2:01:17turned out okay for him. He was able to

2:01:19find services once he got to Boston. He

2:01:22was able to get into a shelter, was able

2:01:24to get himself fed. So, this is a person

2:01:27who was picked up during a legally

2:01:29dubious situation. They were having they

2:01:32were fighting right in public. There was

2:01:33a reason for a law enforcement

2:01:35interaction. And I this this is not the

2:01:39only story I've heard. I mean, this is

2:01:40mine that I have. But I hear this all

2:01:43the time from people in different cities

2:01:46and I'm very concerned about it because

2:01:48I think when you are outside, you're

2:01:51already living a legally dubious life.

2:01:54You are at a higher risk for being

2:01:57transported against your will between

2:02:00places. And so I appreciate that you're

2:02:03you're thinking about this. Um and I do

2:02:05see this being connected to the work

2:02:07that the homeless committee is doing.

2:02:09I just wanted to share that story

2:02:11because I think it's important. I don't

2:02:13think we talked about about this enough.

2:02:16Um, thank you,

2:02:19>> Dr. Floyd.

2:02:20>> Um, I it's been a while since I've

2:02:22looked at this, but there is so there is

2:02:24a state law and I think you referenced

2:02:26it and then last year there was an

2:02:27effort in the legislature to strengthen

2:02:30that and it didn't pass and so actually

2:02:34I I believe you testified on it.

2:02:36[laughter]

2:02:37Um, so you could probably speak to it,

2:02:38but I So I I know there's been work and

2:02:41there's been attempts to do this and I I

2:02:43do think that this is something that we

2:02:44could really engage our legislators on.

2:02:49>> Yeah.

2:02:49>> Yeah. Well, I I wanted to say, you know,

2:02:51I really like this idea because uh you

2:02:54was looking out there's actually a model

2:02:55in Riverside, California that they did

2:02:57it and the penalty is never on the

2:03:00person that everyone anyone is free to

2:03:02travel to Bangor. No one's saying you

2:03:03need permission to come. It's saying,

2:03:05"Hey, you as the organization, you can't

2:03:07just transport people here, you know,

2:03:10and do that to them." And I like

2:03:11Riverside because you look at their

2:03:13website, they actually have a portal

2:03:14that you go, you can click on to alert

2:03:16the city, hey, make the arrangements all

2:03:18on there. Um, because it be then

2:03:20becomes, you know, preparation rather

2:03:22than reaction. And, you know, that's not

2:03:24fair to the people who are getting

2:03:25dropped off and it's not fair to the

2:03:26city who were already stretched in. Um

2:03:29and and also I think that it also helps

2:03:31create a paper trail for uh the double

2:03:33double indenity for GA for those

2:03:35communities who want to sh their

2:03:37responsibility rather than coordinate.

2:03:39Now we've got a paper trail. I think

2:03:41that was a challenge is it ends up

2:03:43taking more effort to try to backtrack

2:03:45and prove the case than it does to you

2:03:47know to just deal with it and get

2:03:49reimbursed later. Um you know and I I'd

2:03:52like to see you know these other

2:03:53communities we collaborate with and come

2:03:54to and say hey let's figure this out. I

2:03:56like the idea of, you know, hey, for six

2:03:58months, it's on you because you're

2:04:00resident, but let's work together. And

2:04:01that's, you know, better than paying

2:04:03double. Um, you know, so I think that's

2:04:05a nice carrot that we can use. Um, yeah.

2:04:09So, I'm I'm excited to to learn more. I

2:04:11think that, you know, it's something

2:04:12that's going to help people and uh uh so

2:04:15yeah, definitely looking forward to

2:04:16seeing email and I just want to give you

2:04:18that's the

2:04:19>> the Riverside model.

2:04:20>> Yeah. And similar to the one I I got in

2:04:23Santa Cl. So it's voluntary. Someone

2:04:26decides on their own, hey, I heard

2:04:28Bango's got great services. I think I'd

2:04:30be better off there. They volunteer. It

2:04:32doesn't touch it. It's about it's just

2:04:34about some community putting somebody on

2:04:37the bus and saying, you know, putting

2:04:38them in the car and just dropping them

2:04:39off with no collaboration.

2:04:42>> Um, one area where maybe even this

2:04:45conversation could be expanded is

2:04:47obviously we can't stop hospitals from

2:04:48taking the healthcare. It's emergency.

2:04:50People have to be taking it. But when

2:04:53they're being discharged with no plan,

2:04:56no anything. You know, there needs to be

2:04:58some kind of a plan. And you know, we

2:05:00need more partnership with our, you

2:05:03know, local organizations to make sure

2:05:05there's a plan for that piece of it.

2:05:07That's also hurting us. Um, you know, so

2:05:10I'd be interested in in, you know,

2:05:12expanding it that way, too.

2:05:13>> I didn't want to add that on there, but

2:05:15there was a sub subchapter to this for

2:05:17exactly that for other service. um

2:05:20whether it's for-profit or nonprofit,

2:05:22when they provide a service and they

2:05:24know this person is is homeless, but

2:05:27they don't they don't at least offer

2:05:30service, they don't make an effort to

2:05:32collaborate with um with a health

2:05:35provider service when they just put them

2:05:37out on the street. So, um that you know,

2:05:40I know there we've got eight of them

2:05:41coming up tonight, but believe it or

2:05:42not, a year and a half ago, I went to

2:05:44the former manager with these. So, um

2:05:46I'm just happy to be here tonight, but I

2:05:49will add that bullet for further

2:05:51consideration

2:05:53moving forward.

2:05:54>> Any other questions or comments on this

2:05:55item?

2:05:59>> Okay, moving on. Um the private uh

2:06:02public private infrastructure

2:06:03partnerships.

2:06:04>> Um we kind of already do that. You know,

2:06:07we're lucky with the Davis. I know who's

2:06:09pretty savvy and I think our public

2:06:11works um all of our departments are are

2:06:14pretty savvy about this, but this just

2:06:16kind of gives a little more

2:06:18clarification and and basically we have

2:06:20TIFF um we have the TIFF projects which

2:06:22is is a sample of of this idea of

2:06:25collaboration. Um but I just thought

2:06:28maybe to build a little bit further on

2:06:30that that if the city whether it's a

2:06:31manager or any other department maybe

2:06:33economic development if they see a way

2:06:36where the city can uh assist with

2:06:39measurable public benefit um for taxable

2:06:43um jobs um housing redevelopment

2:06:47underused property expansion of um you

2:06:50know water and sewer services or

2:06:52infrastructure that we could come up

2:06:54with an ordinance um that just expands a

2:06:57little more because I know now they're

2:06:59doing it voluntarily, but it would just

2:07:00be nice if we had some some type of

2:07:03guidance um for our departments to kind

2:07:05of maybe be more mindful to look for

2:07:10um and there's some specific language I

2:07:12found from some other municipalities

2:07:14that um in my little bullet email that

2:07:17I'll pass on for further considerations.

2:07:20>> Questions, comments on this item?

2:07:25Okay. uh restrictions on the sale of

2:07:28city- owned land.

2:07:30>> Um this again was I looked at some

2:07:32others and um I thought the council

2:07:35should consider some language um for

2:07:39restrictions or ordinances for

2:07:41preferences. It doesn't have to be

2:07:42necessarily I think sometimes if we if

2:07:44we etch it in stone and we don't know

2:07:46what the future's going to bring, we

2:07:47might be shooting oursel in the foot.

2:07:49It's sort of uh some guidelines for

2:07:51preferences that we um um restrict uh

2:07:56public property uh to to for economic

2:07:59development. Hopefully keeping it under

2:08:01the city ownership but somehow being

2:08:03able to benefit an economic uh financial

2:08:06benefit uh for the majority of of the

2:08:09community. Um and and anything that

2:08:13might be able to do with the retention

2:08:14of the property yet still increasing an

2:08:17economic benefit. um and if we are going

2:08:20to sell it to have a property appraised

2:08:23and have it sold at fair market value

2:08:26unless there's an other economic benefit

2:08:28to the city. So I'd like that to see us

2:08:32you know make a resolve or an ordinance

2:08:34that our first preference is to keep it

2:08:36keep the property and keep it mindful

2:08:39for a benefit to the majority of the

2:08:41population. uh and if we have to sell

2:08:44it, make sure that it really has an

2:08:46equal benefit for not just today, but

2:08:48for the future for the city of Bangor.

2:08:52Um so that and again I'll I'll get this

2:08:56a little more professionally written

2:08:57with some bullets for further

2:08:58consideration.

2:09:02>> Oh, I'm just having a great time loving

2:09:04all these bullet points so far. So, I'm

2:09:07I mean, I think as you know, councelor

2:09:09Fish, I also really care deeply about um

2:09:12city- owned land and and I do think

2:09:14about that a lot. As Bangor grows, we're

2:09:16going to I mean, we're going to need

2:09:18those places um to to grow the city. And

2:09:22so, I think um I think anything that we

2:09:26can do to protect our our city land and

2:09:28our investment is a good idea. My one

2:09:30concern about this would be I'm trying

2:09:33to think maybe actually council chair

2:09:35hogs I think maybe stole this line from

2:09:37somebody but says it really well but

2:09:39which is you know we we as a council

2:09:42cannot

2:09:44um we cannot hold a future council

2:09:47um to anything that we [clears throat]

2:09:49decide now but of course the reverse is

2:09:51true neither can the fact that there

2:09:53will one day be a future council hold

2:09:55you know hold us to anything and so I'm

2:09:57wondering what maybe you think about um

2:10:01I mean I don't know whether ordinance or

2:10:03resolve or whatever but maybe what

2:10:04you're what you think about having or

2:10:06creating some staff like some guidance

2:10:08to staff around

2:10:10>> um as they're exploring you know these

2:10:13opportunities you know maybe here's like

2:10:14a quick sheet on some guidance of things

2:10:17that the current council thinks are

2:10:19important

2:10:20>> because I was worried about this of

2:10:21coming up with an ordinance or rule as I

2:10:24mentioned didn't want to shoot ourselves

2:10:25in the foot that we made it too strict

2:10:27and too limited did where if we gave

2:10:30guidance then we could listen to the

2:10:32recommendation by staff and look at it

2:10:34by you know situation by situation

2:10:38>> earlier and then counc

2:10:40>> if I may I think when councelor fish and

2:10:42I discussed some of these I believe I

2:10:45made the comment that the public private

2:10:48partnerships restrictions on city- owned

2:10:51land and probably also the grant

2:10:53accountability requirements might just

2:10:55be policies as opposed to formal

2:10:58ordinances.

2:11:00>> Yeah,

2:11:01>> thank you. Um I know that um director

2:11:05had said at one point that it's sort of

2:11:07unusual for city to own a lot of

2:11:10property and I'm wondering is it kind of

2:11:15overall and I know each property is

2:11:17going to be a little bit different but

2:11:18sort of in general is it more beneficial

2:11:21to a city to have more property or to

2:11:26have a property that is generating tax

2:11:28revenue and do we have any stats on that

2:11:32I think that's a that's a policy

2:11:35question based on how you value,

2:11:39[laughter] right? I mean, tax dollars

2:11:41are valuable,

2:11:43>> right?

2:11:43>> But enticing a desirable

2:11:47business to come in or entity might also

2:11:51be valuable for other reasons not

2:11:52related to tax revenue. So, I don't

2:11:54think it's a I don't think it's an

2:11:56easily quantifiable

2:11:58analysis.

2:12:00Any

2:12:01other questions or comments on this

2:12:03item?

2:12:05>> Okay. Uh grant accountability

2:12:07requirements.

2:12:09>> Yeah, I think um you know since postcoid

2:12:12with all the grants um you know and I

2:12:15think also from pre-COVID with almost

2:12:18300 nonprofits to um and it's not just

2:12:22nonprofits grants can go to profit

2:12:24businesses as well. But I think that

2:12:26there's a lot of pass through through uh

2:12:28us as a municipality just as the way we

2:12:31receive them from government or state.

2:12:33And I think sometimes too we could

2:12:35partner with um maybe um entities

2:12:38whether profit or nonprofit whereas in

2:12:41the municipality we might be able

2:12:43certain grants that would be beneficial

2:12:44to the community and um and I think

2:12:47right now we just don't have any

2:12:49guidance for um you know auditing the

2:12:53grants that we have when we get a grant

2:12:55I don't think there's any anything

2:12:57against the law with us applying our own

2:12:59our own u standards of of what we expect

2:13:03as a result of the recipient of that

2:13:05grant for accountability, expectation,

2:13:08reporting of where they are with the

2:13:10uses of that grant and [clears throat]

2:13:12um um and to make sure that the grants I

2:13:15think we have a certain responsibility

2:13:16to make sure that the grant in fact was

2:13:18applied to how it was supposed to be

2:13:20applied. So again, rather than take up a

2:13:22lot of time, I think on that I had like

2:13:24three or four pages and they were all

2:13:26pretty common sense, but at least it

2:13:28gave uh us as a municipality some

2:13:31guidelines for those applying and

2:13:33receiving and passing through us for

2:13:35grants. Um just, you know, for we to to

2:13:39make sure that they're financially in

2:13:41good standing. you know, when we have

2:13:42grant money, it's an opportunity for

2:13:45individuals in our community for

2:13:46whatever the directed, you know, uh

2:13:49directed source for that grant. And if

2:13:51they end up in the hands of someone that

2:13:53really doesn't have good management or

2:13:55good fiscal responsibility,

2:13:57uh I think it's not, you know, very

2:14:00responsible of us to just hand that out

2:14:02with some type of verification,

2:14:04validation that we're putting it in the

2:14:06right hands. So I just would like to see

2:14:08us expand a little bit more with some

2:14:10guidance and maybe again rather than

2:14:12ordinance it' be a guidance maybe we

2:14:14could work more with the departments to

2:14:16get their input but I think right now um

2:14:19you know I think we've seen some

2:14:21mistakes we've made and I just think

2:14:23that we as a a governing body should

2:14:26apply some some types of expectations.

2:14:30Is it that we don't have anything in

2:14:34place now for accountability or is it

2:14:36that we do have something and it's not

2:14:38followed?

2:14:41>> Um, so it's I think it's more that it's

2:14:45ad hoc. I mean, granted, I wasn't here

2:14:48precoid, but my sense is that prior to

2:14:52ARPA and all of that money coming, the

2:14:55city wasn't generally in a position to

2:14:58be administering grants to subreients.

2:15:02We were the recipient of grants, but we

2:15:05weren't administering grants. And then

2:15:07we got millions of dollars in ARPA funds

2:15:10and for the first time we're now in a

2:15:13position to administer those grant funds

2:15:16and hold grantees accountable and it was

2:15:18sort of a learning on the fly exercise

2:15:20that then repeated itself with the

2:15:23opioid settlement funds. So, I wouldn't

2:15:25say that there's no accounting

2:15:27accountability measures in place, but

2:15:29when we received all those monies, there

2:15:31was no one in place that was expert in

2:15:35grant administration.

2:15:39>> Yeah. Again, I would be supportive of an

2:15:42idea like this. I think we're, you know,

2:15:44in in compliance with grants as they

2:15:46come. Every grant that comes through

2:15:48sort of has their own um stipulations

2:15:51and so we're whatever the flexibility we

2:15:53would need to um but I I agree with this

2:15:57when I first got to the council. So this

2:15:59is one of those things, you know, you're

2:16:00coming in in the after some of those

2:16:02things happen or in the middle of other

2:16:04conversations and some of those grants

2:16:07that go, you know, went out early when I

2:16:09was elected. you sort of just have in

2:16:10your brain like there must be right

2:16:13there just must be reporting there must

2:16:14be accountability like that just makes

2:16:17complete common sense and then you find

2:16:19out well actually no like it's not and

2:16:21it's not because we're stupid or laser

2:16:23you know we we're learning this was new

2:16:27you have hindsight you sort of learn

2:16:28what you need to do better um and so

2:16:31yeah I think wherever we can provide

2:16:33guidance um or even wherever we can can

2:16:38um push grants in a direction where

2:16:40there actually is a city entity that can

2:16:42really control how those are dispersed

2:16:44and and you know compel that type of

2:16:48responsibility.

2:16:50>> So I will add that to my email and some

2:16:52bullets of some things I found and ideas

2:16:54for everyone to collaborate on.

2:16:58>> Okay. [clears throat]

2:16:58>> Um nonprofit registration requirements.

2:17:02>> Okay. So um

2:17:05uh this was interesting. I'll pick this

2:17:07research back up. Even though I'm I may

2:17:09be on off council, I will continue to

2:17:11communicate. Um I think um I dropped

2:17:15this project when I got into the

2:17:18homeless topic starting to communities

2:17:20and and then we got

2:17:24okay. So it was interesting when I

2:17:26started working with some resource

2:17:28research people's university. I thought

2:17:301300 nonprofit we do we really have them

2:17:33and we started to find some uh

2:17:35interesting uh you know kind of

2:17:38concerning u things going on some

2:17:41nonprofits were registered as having

2:17:44services in Bangor but when I was

2:17:46working with these other resource um

2:17:48resource research independent counselors

2:17:52consultants um we found that in fact

2:17:54they really didn't have any ties to

2:17:56Bangor so why were they why was Bangor

2:17:58in their radar are and one of them I'm

2:18:01just going to use one city because um we

2:18:04we found this curious um Missouri had no

2:18:08ties to Bangor but this particular

2:18:10nonprofit was saying they had services

2:18:13in Bangor but we couldn't really find

2:18:15that they really had any services in

2:18:16Bangor yet around the time of this

2:18:19discovery we also found that the two or

2:18:21three people had gotten off the bus in

2:18:23the middle of winter from Missouri and

2:18:26yet there was no collaboration and no

2:18:28resources for them here. So the question

2:18:31arose, well um what is the benefit and

2:18:34somehow do they have financial benefit

2:18:36by claiming their services and sending

2:18:38people here but in fact they really

2:18:39aren't. So, um, I thought one measure we

2:18:43could do as as a responsible

2:18:44municipality is per perhaps have

2:18:47nonprofits register and then we at least

2:18:50know who they are and if they don't have

2:18:52bricks and mortar here, ask um, you

2:18:55know, give a you know I have when I have

2:18:57an office and I have inventory and I

2:18:59have machines every year I have to do a

2:19:01report of my personal property and how

2:19:04many computers I have, how many desk I

2:19:05have and what I bought new and I have to

2:19:07provide a report so that I can get a

2:19:09personal tax, which I haven't had in my

2:19:12personal office lately, but I did every

2:19:14year for 25 or 30 years. So, I was

2:19:16thinking similar to that. Um, a minimal

2:19:19registration. We don't want the

2:19:21nonprofits that we're working with that

2:19:22are struggling to be burdened, but we

2:19:25also want to make sure that, um, we know

2:19:27what's going on in our city. So um and

2:19:30again there was a lot of a lot of

2:19:32municipalities and towns do have um that

2:19:35they register they provide um form 990

2:19:39they disclose um uh a lot of it's public

2:19:42but this is even one step further um

2:19:45they give a brief description of what

2:19:47their services are and exactly how they

2:19:49do participate in services within your

2:19:51city limits. So again, rather than take

2:19:54a lot of time tonight, it's getting

2:19:55late. I will I'll provide these bullet

2:19:57things that were the highlights of that

2:19:59type of

2:20:01>> I just want to again signal I'm not on

2:20:04this committee and I keep raising my

2:20:05hand, but I do want to signal support

2:20:07for this as well. Um, and just comment

2:20:10that I would support a version of this

2:20:12that's consistent with, you know,

2:20:14businesses already have to register with

2:20:15the city of Bangor. That's not abnormal.

2:20:18So, um [clears throat] I think it would

2:20:20be fully appropriate to have a policy

2:20:23that nonprofits register that's

2:20:24consistent with our um other policies

2:20:28where businesses register with the city.

2:20:31>> Any other question to come to that?

2:20:34>> I was just going to say where I guess I

2:20:36look at this is I'd like to see it

2:20:38really hone in on those who are claiming

2:20:40taxes and status. uh under a state law,

2:20:43this the assessor can request yearly

2:20:46reports and show they're still, you

2:20:48know, eligible uh before they make that,

2:20:51you know, determination again on April

2:20:521st. So, that's a good conversation to

2:20:54invite the assessor to and just kind of

2:20:56see where things are already at with

2:20:58maybe that's already happening, maybe

2:20:59it's not. Um, yeah, because if there's

2:21:01nonprofits who are, you know, getting

2:21:03tax exempt status and then, you know,

2:21:05they're not operating under how they

2:21:07originally got it, you know, we need to

2:21:09know that and, you know, that, you know,

2:21:11they're no longer eligible, then they

2:21:12should be paying taxes.

2:21:14>> Um, so, you know, that's that's that's

2:21:16the angle I'm I'm interested in for this

2:21:18one.

2:21:19>> And and for clarity, it's not for us to

2:21:21take any regulatory position on it. It's

2:21:24more of an accountability and

2:21:25transparency.

2:21:27I'm all for the accountability property

2:21:29tax

2:21:31impact of them being absolutely doing

2:21:33what we say they're going to be doing.

2:21:36Come for cursive.

2:21:36>> I would just also say I can see one

2:21:38additional benefit in this which is that

2:21:40you know nonprofits by their nature

2:21:42nonprofits faith organizations receive

2:21:44their taxes up status because they're

2:21:46supposed to be doing some kind of good

2:21:48out in the world. Um and with a number

2:21:50like that I and I buy that number 1300

2:21:52because you think about all the

2:21:53different types. I mean, there's

2:21:54veterans organizations help people cut

2:21:56their grass. There's organizations that

2:21:58help people build homes. There's, you

2:22:00know, if you have leukemia, there's uh

2:22:02so, but this would also help us as a as

2:22:05a council, as a city to have that data

2:22:07to really know the the scope of what is

2:22:11actually available out there. I think we

2:22:13as counselors run into people all the

2:22:15time who probably would be great

2:22:16candidates for one of the many

2:22:19nonprofits out there that are offering

2:22:21things, but we don't know about them. we

2:22:23don't know what to that they exist or

2:22:25even how to refer somebody to those

2:22:26places. So I think having that data is

2:22:29just there uh creates another pathway

2:22:31for us to do some more good. Also

2:22:35>> um you know an older piece I I would be

2:22:37curious to hear about too just you know

2:22:39the registration process just making

2:22:40sure we're not putting any undue burden

2:22:42on staff. you know there's gonna be a

2:22:44lot of work especially if there's 1300

2:22:45you know how much effort that's going to

2:22:47take from staff and you know plan

2:22:48accordingly so but yeah definitely

2:22:50interested in having further

2:22:51conversation about it uh any other

2:22:54comments on this side

2:22:57that bring it to the needle redemption

2:23:00program

2:23:03>> and again um I just want to hit the same

2:23:06for just coming with this proposal

2:23:10with us and so to bring these up for

2:23:12conversation collaboration and input

2:23:14from everybody. Um, you know, uh, some

2:23:17of the towns and some of my research,

2:23:19there's a lot of different SSP ideas and

2:23:22guidance and and guidelines rules around

2:23:25it. And I think we need to come up with

2:23:27something more with with the situation

2:23:29we have on our street. Some of them are

2:23:32um, some couple of towns have ordinances

2:23:34that the only ones that are able to

2:23:36distribute um, um, needle distribution

2:23:40are those that are certified. And I know

2:23:42right now we only have two certified. So

2:23:44it would be interesting to get some

2:23:45input maybe from our health department

2:23:47would just to just the certified um

2:23:51service distribution sense be enough

2:23:54SSPs be enough. Um but there's also a

2:23:57lot of other people. There's no law that

2:23:59presents

2:24:01distributing um you know a quantity of

2:24:04needles to people that I think that they

2:24:06think they're doing good service. Maybe

2:24:08they are, but I think our SSPs get a lot

2:24:11of um the bad publicity. I think they

2:24:14get blamed for all of the needle

2:24:16problems we have when in fact I think

2:24:18there's a lot more uh distribution going

2:24:20on that aren't even recognized. So, I

2:24:22just don't know how we can get more

2:24:24accountability maybe with some

2:24:25guidelines that if they're not

2:24:27certified, maybe they register and tell

2:24:29us who they are. you know, are if

2:24:31they're the faith based organizations

2:24:33and they're every Sunday giving out

2:24:355,000 needles, maybe they should tell

2:24:37us, well, what are you doing to try to

2:24:40follow up with the cleanup or what are

2:24:42you doing with that? Just some type of

2:24:43guidelines and responsibilities for

2:24:45that. Um, in the needle exchange, I

2:24:48would really like to see some kind of

2:24:50limitation, you know, uh, some type of

2:24:53exchange. Um, you know, one for 100

2:24:56seems excessive. Um I I know we've got

2:25:00debates either ways, but I'd like to

2:25:01really see that conversation uh come

2:25:04back up one for 20, you know, or when

2:25:07some people have so many in 24 hours, 20

2:25:09to 30 to 24 hours. Um and again, I'd

2:25:13like to get some input from our um

2:25:16public health and community service,

2:25:17Jen. But it it just seems like right now

2:25:21the amount of needles that are out and

2:25:23on the streets, we got to come up with

2:25:25something better and something more to

2:25:27expand on. Um there was and I know this

2:25:30hasn't been very popular and I think

2:25:32Portland started recently having

2:25:35compensation

2:25:36and I heard it started out as a

2:25:38nightmare, but I've heard some positive

2:25:40things about it. Um we certainly

2:25:42wouldn't want the public going out there

2:25:43and trying to collect needles but I

2:25:45think that this again could be

2:25:47restricted that only the ner the ner u

2:25:49service providers or those using the

2:25:52needles and going and collecting the the

2:25:54needles using the needles that they

2:25:56might be able to get some minimal

2:25:58compensation just to give them the

2:25:59incentive to help to clean the needles

2:26:02out. These were different ideas again

2:26:05that I will because it's getting late.

2:26:08Um I'll just put the key bullets that I

2:26:10learned and some things that I thought

2:26:12might be worth furthering the

2:26:14conversation putting those together for

2:26:17um rest of the council's feedback for or

2:26:19against or other ideas you all might

2:26:21have.

2:26:23>> I jump on first on this one. I just want

2:26:26to say I signed me up for the needle

2:26:28redemption idea. Um because I think the

2:26:30last conversation we had with about the

2:26:32lavanneou is it works out to be about

2:26:35250 a needle they're getting paid to

2:26:37pick them up whereas if we're offering

2:26:39dime 25 cents you know that's a far cry

2:26:43and you know the feedback I'm getting

2:26:45from conversations I'm having is you

2:26:46incentivize it and people will go

2:26:49everywhere to clean those needles up and

2:26:52uh you know that's you know that that

2:26:55money adds up quick for for folks who

2:26:57who need it who are you know have no

2:26:58means right now and they're they're

2:27:00happy to help clean up the city and I

2:27:02don't see why we couldn't give them a

2:27:03little incentive to for doing so.

2:27:06Councelor Flynn and Councelor Carson,

2:27:07>> thank you. Um I like the idea of a

2:27:10needle redemption program. I don't know

2:27:11if you've like had any conversations

2:27:13with Portland like I I it would be

2:27:15really good to know like how theirs is

2:27:17going. However, um and it's been a while

2:27:20since I researched it so I forget where.

2:27:22Um but in one municipality where they

2:27:26did this, people were

2:27:29going and get, you know, turning in

2:27:32needles, getting new needles, but they

2:27:35were taking those needles and they were

2:27:37opening them and they were like dumping

2:27:39soda on them and then they were turning

2:27:40around and then they were bringing them

2:27:42back in and they were redeeming them. So

2:27:44it looked like they were used and they

2:27:45hadn't really used them, but they were

2:27:47just doing it to get the So I'm not

2:27:49saying that that's widespread, but I did

2:27:52read that that was happening in one

2:27:54community. So [laughter]

2:27:56just something to keep in the back of

2:27:58our minds and and I don't know how you

2:27:59get around that like maybe you just like

2:28:01limit the number that can be returned in

2:28:03a day or something like that.

2:28:07Councelor

2:28:09Dean and Walker and other counc

2:28:16>> well I've talked a lot why don't you put

2:28:17me all the way at the end

2:28:19>> okay

2:28:20>> well I I like this idea of the needle

2:28:22redemption but I'm also thinking of

2:28:24people who have

2:28:27jugs and jars of needles in their own

2:28:29home that they've used legally

2:28:31>> and I think that they need to be in on

2:28:33this because it's terribly unfair they

2:28:35have to pay to have

2:28:37dispose of when other people may be paid

2:28:40to bring them in. So, I think if we do

2:28:43anything like this, we need that as

2:28:45well.

2:28:48>> That was one of my two things. Um, my

2:28:50other one was I don't know how

2:28:54>> I think that people just out collecting

2:28:57needles is going to be a health concern.

2:29:00I said we'd have to have restrictions

2:29:01that the public can go, kids can go out

2:29:04and you know, right just can't be out.

2:29:06We would have to say these are the

2:29:08people that have some Yeah. some some

2:29:10type of

2:29:12>> um yeah, not a health concern for sure.

2:29:15And then I was concerned about people

2:29:17just having them that use them legally

2:29:20for certain things. I'm not at the

2:29:22insulin level yet, but I do have type

2:29:25two diabetes and like, you know, take

2:29:28some back. But I'm just saying that I

2:29:30think that people just willy-nilly out

2:29:33need to be trained or watch a video or

2:29:36something. I'm just coming up with this

2:29:38late. I'm just trying to say that there

2:29:41has to be guidelines about exactly who

2:29:43need

2:29:44>> Okay.

2:29:46>> Yes. Well, so a couple of thoughts. I

2:29:48love this idea. Um, you know, I I hear

2:29:52and I hear it from our residents, the

2:29:54frustration finding needles in public,

2:29:56finding them in the parks. And I I

2:29:57recognize that's difficult. And I

2:29:59recognize also that people without data

2:30:02are going to answer for themselves why

2:30:05they think that that's happening. And of

2:30:06course, we do have some data. We know

2:30:08how many needles went out last year. We

2:30:10know how many were collected or about

2:30:12how many were collected. What we don't

2:30:13have data on is what happens to the rest

2:30:16of them. And it's easy to assume that

2:30:19well you know 200,000 needles are being

2:30:21just thrown on the ground or thrown into

2:30:22the river or whatever but we actually

2:30:24don't know that. Um we would have to

2:30:26study that question to really right to

2:30:29track those down and really come up with

2:30:31a policy to address that. And I think

2:30:34that that is a huge mountain to climb um

2:30:38to try to track down like a few hundred

2:30:41thousand needles, figure out what

2:30:43happened to them and how they ended up

2:30:44where they ended up where instead of

2:30:48trying to go that way, creating a

2:30:50redemption program would create the

2:30:52incentive for people to bring them in. I

2:30:54agree that we'd have to have guidance.

2:30:56Um I think that would be a really

2:30:57important conversation. I would abandon

2:31:00my car as it's moving if I see a soda

2:31:03can on the side of the road just to get

2:31:04that five cents, right? So, I'm really

2:31:06at a high risk here for being one of the

2:31:09people who goes out and things up. You

2:31:12think that that's funny, but

2:31:14>> you'll I mean, really, I mean, I've

2:31:15pulled over to why why not. Okay, leave

2:31:18me alone. But, so I think this is a

2:31:20great idea. I can see how that incentive

2:31:22would be impactful. And to the point

2:31:24that was just raised by councelor Dean

2:31:26and counselor Walker, um I'm thinking

2:31:28about something that we could do with,

2:31:32you know, this redemption program. But

2:31:34[clears throat] there there are devices

2:31:36actually out there um I think for about

2:31:39$50,000,

2:31:41we can actually purchase a a piece of

2:31:44equipment that crushes needles in a way

2:31:47that they can be disposed in the regular

2:31:49trash. So there is there are

2:31:52opportunities out there um to to find

2:31:56pieces of equipment that can help us do

2:31:58those things. And so thinking about that

2:31:59question that you're asking about people

2:32:01who have diabetes or people at home who

2:32:03are already paying to do something like

2:32:05this, there are solutions out there. And

2:32:07I think that if we're creative and we

2:32:09put funding together for this, that

2:32:11could be um something [clears throat]

2:32:13else that we could bring into the

2:32:15conversation. And just you know so that

2:32:17you know I'm not lying director

2:32:19Gunderman has a picture of such such

2:32:21equipment. So, um, the only thing that I

2:32:25would the one concern that I have I

2:32:26think that we would need to f feel out

2:32:29besides the things that you've already

2:32:31raised like the public risk and such is

2:32:34would implementing a redemption program

2:32:38in some way be disruptive to the SSP

2:32:43um providers if they were the ones that

2:32:46had to

2:32:49um, you know, like a to be the ones that

2:32:52administer I'm sure the redemption

2:32:55program

2:32:55>> get some feedback how to implement this

2:32:57and how we could help them help with you

2:33:00know bring this to fruition but uh yes

2:33:02from my research uh initially it did it

2:33:06it was somewhat burdensome on on them so

2:33:10we we'll have to be creative around that

2:33:12but that's a good point

2:33:14one thing I didn't along with this is

2:33:17needle manufacturers this would have to

2:33:19be probably a legislative thing I think

2:33:20we've talked about this before where um

2:33:23there's a tax um for the uh needle

2:33:28manufacturers

2:33:30where um if um in some states have and I

2:33:34got a little bit of research on that

2:33:36it's called the needle tax and um it's

2:33:39actually called sharps and syringe

2:33:41cleanup fund and someone and then others

2:33:44call it a plastic and sharps cleanup

2:33:47fund and some states have initiated some

2:33:50legislation

2:33:51where they actually tax manufacturers

2:33:54who sell products in their state. Um,

2:33:57and this would probably fall under that.

2:33:59Um, and then this tax goes back to the

2:34:02municipalities to help clean up um any

2:34:05of these plastics in this case. And a

2:34:08lot of them were really specifically

2:34:09directed to um the needles that are

2:34:12being disposed of. But they were

2:34:14thinking of the future. Well, today is

2:34:15six needles. What would it be? possibly

2:34:17maybe there'll be plastic cups 10 years

2:34:20from now or you know so they they kind

2:34:22of broaden the term uh a little bit with

2:34:25um whatever it was I just said. Um so I

2:34:29think that I read that there's something

2:34:32that was or is coming. There's some kind

2:34:34of talk I think in Augusta right now

2:34:37with something similar that maybe we can

2:34:39find out about and help push or pursue.

2:34:42Then when those tax monies come in, um

2:34:45just like I think with the opioid money,

2:34:48some of the money is distributed back to

2:34:49the municipalities to help them with the

2:34:51cleanup cost.

2:34:54>> Any comment or question on this item?

2:34:58It'll make you all sad to know that

2:35:00we've come up to the last item of the

2:35:01night.

2:35:02>> I know you're all excited about this.

2:35:05Unfortunately, before we move on, so on

2:35:08sort of the la the last conversation in

2:35:10total, I think the goal was to sort of

2:35:13have a really surface level initial

2:35:15discussion to gauge interest. I think

2:35:18what I heard was a high level of

2:35:21interest in all of the items. So, I

2:35:24think out of necessity, we need to have

2:35:26a follow-up conversation about

2:35:29prioritizing

2:35:31because I think it's, you know, seven or

2:35:33eight

2:35:35policies to develop, ordinances to

2:35:37develop, programs to develop, which can

2:35:41all happen concurrently at the same

2:35:43time. I mean, as we talked about today,

2:35:45our finance department is just

2:35:46struggling to do their basic functions,

2:35:48and there's, you know, our police

2:35:50department is under staff. So, I think

2:35:52we have to prioritize. Would you like me

2:35:55to schedule a follow-up conversation on

2:35:58priority or do we want to maybe send

2:36:01that feedback to me? I think you're

2:36:03going to send out an email and then

2:36:05maybe folks could weigh in on sort of

2:36:08what they see as priorities and then

2:36:10I'll start scheduling them that way.

2:36:13Open to either method.

2:36:16>> I like that second choice.

2:36:18>> Okay,

2:36:19>> second choice.

2:36:20>> Perfect.

2:36:20>> Great. and I will work on this um

2:36:25within the next 48 hours

2:36:28think

2:36:31within the next couple of days I will

2:36:33get you all an email. Should I just send

2:36:35that to you Caroline to distribute and

2:36:38um I'll kind of provide an overview of

2:36:41my research and all the bullet points so

2:36:43you all get it and then from that it

2:36:45might be easier to um let Carolyn know

2:36:48what your priorities are. And I

2:36:51apologize, but believe it or not, I went

2:36:53to the former manager with a lot of

2:36:54these, but we just had a lot of other

2:36:56crises and things happen. So, thank you

2:36:59all for your time tonight to let me be

2:37:00able to discuss. Appreciate it.

2:37:02>> Thanks for the assistance.

2:37:11>> And that brings us to the last item,

2:37:13voting delegates for Maine Municipal

2:37:14Association's annual convention and

2:37:16business meeting.

2:37:17>> Yes. So, MMA meeting is Wednesday and

2:37:20Thursday of this week. A part of that

2:37:22will be the official annual meeting

2:37:25where the only item to vote on will be

2:37:28approving the minutes from the last

2:37:29annual meeting. But nonetheless, I need

2:37:33you all to formally delegate me to vote

2:37:37on your behalf with Courtney as an

2:37:40alternate. Um, so it requires a

2:37:43signature of the majority of the elect

2:37:47which I think we still have here. So so

2:37:49long as you are okay with me voting

2:37:52[clears throat] sign away.

2:37:54>> Okay.

2:37:54>> And that is it.

2:37:56>> All right. Any questions or comments?

2:38:00Believe we are ajourned.

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