2026-10-07 - Planning Board Meeting

0:07being six o'clock, I'm going to open up

0:08the child planning board um October 7th

0:12um meeting.

0:15Um

0:16so first on the agenda is the um

0:22notice of public hearing for Robert

0:25Hatch on Oxboro

0:27Road. Um, in accordance with section

0:30205.13

0:33and 200 um 7.2 to the child and zoning

0:37bylaw, the child and printing lab will

0:39hold the public hearing on Wednesday,

0:40October 7th in the planning board office

0:43in the George C. McKenry building, 37

0:46Main Street, Child Mass. [clears throat]

0:48Um, Robert Hatch um special permit for

0:51reduced financial lot to create one

0:53reduced financial lot to residential use

0:56with um

0:581.2

1:00ft of frontage on Oxbow Road. The

1:02proposed lot contains

1:08um 217,88

1:11square ft um over 5 acres. Property is

1:14short 22A um

1:19and is grown agricultural.

1:24Anything we should know about the

1:28Yes. So, I've got it right here. So,

1:30this has been um [clears throat] an old

1:34ANR that was done quite some time ago.

1:37When it was done, they never actually

1:38pursued the special permit for the

1:40reduced frontage lot. They're now

1:42getting the point where they do want to

1:44sell it and they would like to um make

1:48it a buildable lot. Uh the issue as was

1:51highlighted in the Graves Engineering

1:53report is that they just used the old

1:56plan which is still just missing uh a

1:58couple of details such as showing where

2:00on the uh lot they're actually going to

2:03put the house just showing all the

2:04boundary lines and things like that

2:06which it's very much up to the board. I

2:10put together a draft decision here for

2:13you folks that could allow you to move

2:15forward with this if you so chose to.

2:17That essentially conditions it by saying

2:19that um they'll still ultimately need to

2:24correct the plan, show all the details

2:26that can be handled administratively. It

2:28will still go to uh peer review to

2:31ensure compliance. If they can't do any

2:33of that, it will come back here to this

2:35board. We still have their peer review

2:38funding in escrow. So, [clears throat]

2:40we um

2:42I'm not terribly worried about that.

2:44That being said, it's generally not the

2:48best form to approve some complete

2:50plans,

2:51but the reduced frontage lot, it's not

2:55one that I'm terribly concerned with.

2:57So, I really leave it to the the

2:59discretion of the board. It would be

3:00perfectly acceptable for you folks to

3:02say, "No, we're just going to continue

3:03this. We want everything to match before

3:06you submit it." or if you'd prefer, you

3:08can uh approve it as condition and then

3:11that can all be handled

3:12administratively. It's it's totally up

3:14to you folks. No wrong way to do that.

3:17What was the reason it's put in front of

3:20us before just is there I mean is there

3:23a rush for timing or is it just fit into

3:25the I mean we actually have a a short

3:28agenda tonight. So

3:29yeah, it it fit into the agenda. It's

3:31something that we sent them this review.

3:33I spoke with their engineer. He is uh

3:37currently out with medical, so he just

3:39hasn't been able to get these plans uh

3:43completed before this hearing. So, it's

3:46something that again I

3:50have no issue doing administratively,

3:52but I think it makes perfect sense to do

3:55if you folks would like to just continue

3:56this to a month out, give them some time

3:59to uh get those plans together. I can

4:02always modify the decision to remove

4:04those conditions once the plans are full

4:07and completed.

4:08So it's this here.

4:09Yep. It's B.

4:10So it's here.

4:11Yeah, that's the one.

4:12So will the the vote up with the state

4:17change that at all? You know how they're

4:18they're not requiring special permit

4:21variances for frontage?

4:25No. Right. That new law. No, I think

4:28that's that's they're allowing that to

4:29be adopted by the town, but they are

4:32that's that was my understanding.

4:34That's not preempt.

4:36Yeah, I must not. Okay. Just so I was

4:38just prepared if 5 acres all of a sudden

4:41becomes a subdivision before us again

4:44and there's a driveway in a cold sack.

4:46So just

4:49not that it's there's a housing

4:51shortage. So

4:52and the state's encouraging that

4:58[clears throat]

4:59Otherwise, it looks like just literally

5:01some changes to the drawing and the

5:04condition.

5:04I mean, it's big enough. It's not it's

5:06it's five acres. So,

5:08so

5:10I would even ask if we need a peer

5:14review of that, but

5:16yeah, I I I let's let's make sure that

5:19we have, you know, we cross all our

5:20duties with peer review like I just in

5:23case. But um I have I mean I don't know

5:26how the bullet bills I have no problem

5:28if we approve it with conditions. I mean

5:32yeah. Yeah.

5:36Motion

5:37make a motion to approve the uh ANR plan

5:40of land and the reduced frontage comp uh

5:44conditions for this property located at

5:49uh lot B4 Oxboro Road in Charleston with

5:53the conditions as written.

5:56Second.

5:58All in favor?

6:00I I

6:13[clears throat]

6:14You want to wait to sign the need to

6:17sign?

6:18No. Yeah. Not an ANR. Just a special

6:20permit.

6:23All the ANR has already been

6:34We have the um the continued um public

6:39is that was that a public hearing? Do we

6:42need to close that public hearing?

6:46That was

6:48make a motion to close public. Second.

6:51All in favor? I

6:56um we have a continued public hearing

6:58for the um Amazon um

7:03flex program

7:09last mile delivery distribution. Um

7:14then just before we jump into that bring

7:17to the board and public's attention I

7:18did receive an email from uh Mr.

7:21Fontaine earlier today and we just want

7:23to make sure that it's uh captured in

7:25the public record. Um

7:28and I will the full email list will be

7:31in the public record. I will share that

7:32with the applicant as well, but I will

7:34go over and get over to Mr. Fontaine

7:36just so we can read what his concerns

7:38are here as well and that way everyone

7:42is on the same page. Thank you. And this

7:45is just a memo to uh the board that I

7:48sent before today before this meeting.

7:51uh and as summarizing just as a response

7:54to the summary that our planning

7:57director uh sent to all of us. So before

8:01considering the modification request of

8:02the original 2021 approval for the

8:04Amazon O3,

8:08I listed a couple of items uh which are

8:10the applicant has not provided a draft

8:12copy of the concept of operations report

8:15for the route 20 adaptive traffic

8:18control system called the ATCS.

8:22Another line item is the applicant has

8:24exceeded the traffic volume limits

8:26established in the original 2021

8:29approval. The facility has material

8:32increase and number of vehicle crashes.

8:34The facility has a negative impact to

8:36the operations of roadways and

8:38intersections and has operations over

8:40the volume to capacity ratios. The

8:43applicant has not submitted the required

8:44traffic monitoring reports and studies

8:47as mandated by condition 16.

8:50The applicant does not propose any

8:52mitigation actions triggered by the

8:54exceedence of those traffic thresholds

8:56including coordination with mass DOT.

8:58Additionally, planning should verify the

9:01following conditions.

9:03Five, updated contact info, eight mass

9:05DOT submittals, 15 mass DOT approvals,

9:0919 spill response plan. I went on to

9:13further notice. We should issue a notice

9:15of violation based on these above

9:17factors and require corrective action

9:19and reszoning enforcement involvement.

9:22Meanwhile, continue the hearing for a

9:23new request. A planning board cannot

9:26approve a modification to a site plan or

9:28a special permit when the applicant is

9:31actively violating the existing approval

9:33upon which the modifications depend.

9:38Just for the record. Thank you. Nice.

9:43message.

9:49I I agree and I have even additional

9:53concerns but not even needed at this

9:55point. Um so do we want to with this? Do

10:00you want to just continue and we can

10:02address I mean we have to until we

10:05I would I would recommend that we we

10:08hear the uh information from the uh the

10:11traffic studies. So we have that and

10:13then um believe at our next session we

10:17will have KP law uh be able to attend as

10:20well and they'll be able to give uh

10:22guidance on on moving forward and those

10:25I would say will be be [clears throat]

10:26the next steps from here.

10:28Makes sense. I would just uh and I

10:31noticed our traffic engineer, Mr. Misho,

10:34is here. Thanks for being here, Bob. Um,

10:37just before that, can can I make a

10:39motion to just uh send a memo for notice

10:44of violation to our zoning enforcement

10:46officer just to get that on record and

10:48then he can start with the proceedings

10:52uh that are all conditional from the

10:54original approval of Amazon and start,

10:56you know? Well, I think we we vote for

10:58Dylan to send

11:00Okay.

11:00the the concerns. That's that would be

11:02the

11:03Yeah, that that's good enough. If you

11:05can kind of summarize this

11:08and my understanding is that

11:11only the zoning enforcement officer can

11:13create a notice of violation. That's a

11:16very formal thing or something like

11:17that, but we can request that you do

11:19that based on some factors like

11:23Yep. Thank you. will be going through a

11:27support in that process.

11:28Administration uh an administrative

11:31question. Um so

11:35obviously we're um we catching the

11:37violations now because of a new

11:39application but um

11:42are who's um who's supposed to be

11:45actively monitoring those? Yeah, the the

11:48planning board um should be monitoring

11:50those and a lot of the triggers uh that

11:53would help us monitor are the filing of

11:56the traffic

11:58reports on the six-month frequency after

12:01occupancy. So, we've started to get some

12:04of those and that's where these

12:06violations are now.

12:07If it isn't on their list, you know, on

12:09their calendar as a reminder, right,

12:11they're going to forget to do it and if

12:12it's not on our calendar, we're going to

12:13forget to ask. So I think you need to

12:16after that talk about the editing

12:18process about

12:19Yeah.

12:20putting some ownership on the followup

12:22piece.

12:22Yeah. Exactly.

12:29So do we have to vote to have

12:32Dylan?

12:36Will you follow up?

12:38I think that's all request from the

12:40chair probably.

12:41[clears throat]

12:41Um, so yeah, I think that if they're

12:44they're in violation, then yeah, the I

12:46copied the commissioner on this, so I'm

12:48sure he'll be in touch with you.

12:50Yeah. So

12:54the presentation

12:57whe you want to [cough] applicant or

12:59[clears throat]

13:00however you want to do

13:02applicant we probably you guys can come

13:05and

13:06sit

13:08yet

13:15I'll be back.

13:16Do we have a

13:18look?

13:19Uh sure.

13:28Okay. My name is Matt, the CESO

13:30Architects and Engineers, owners agent

13:33uh for the application here today. Uh

13:35just an opening comment. I can tell you

13:37that I talked to the GM this afternoon.

13:39They're unaware of any violations. So,

13:42what I would welcome is Dylan for you to

13:44send that to me. Let me immediately get

13:46that into their hands because I think

13:47that if they knew that they would run to

13:49those wonderful I'll send you the email

13:52after you.

13:53So we appreciate that Mr. Fontaine. We

13:55will address that with them and get them

13:58on

13:58and and a lot of these just came because

14:00of the traffic studies. Now it's all of

14:02a sudden like oh we need to address

14:04these. So that's which were kind of

14:06recent. So I understand why they may not

14:08have seen them prior to this.

14:10Sure. I'd be happy to take it. So, in

14:13light of the conversation about traffic,

14:14I think we should start there. Uh, we

14:17just read your report yesterday, so your

14:19peer review of that. So, we appreciate

14:22that. I think the

14:23Did you receive the today's email?

14:26No, I only have the I sent you

14:29everything, but it was it came in later

14:31in the day. So, you would receive that

14:33email maybe sometime around 4:00

14:35yesterday. Today.

14:37Okay. Today.

14:38I did not.

14:39Yeah.

14:40So, I got some yesterday. Yeah, there

14:43there there's not a lot of new

14:44information in what we did, but it's it

14:46does relate to the specific application

14:49for the boy.

14:50So, I think we're clear to talk about

14:52that. I have Zach with me from Vanos uh

14:54traffic engineers as well. Let me just

14:56say as a real high point, the facility

14:58is very open to the idea of working on

15:01the uh mitigative recommendations that

15:03you made, Bob. It's not uncommon that

15:05they'll do that at other facilities.

15:07They're open to those ideas, the ideas

15:09of a traffic coordinator. um having a a

15:12regular way in which you engage the

15:14employees on modes of transportation

15:17uh surveying the employees things of

15:19this nature. So I have kind of a list of

15:20things going for that. Um I also think

15:23there's opportunities to maybe take a

15:25look at um it's interesting in this case

15:27we originally thought that the uh

15:31traffic for the supplemental program

15:33would go out the rear exit at 169. The

15:36data is showing us the opposite of that.

15:38push more traffic up to the front of of

15:40Route 20, which is kind of the essence

15:42of your report, I think, Bob.

15:44So, what I'd like to do is maybe have

15:47some dialogue about how we can help the

15:50facility understand how they can utilize

15:52that better and more efficiently get

15:53traffic out of the front of the

15:54facility, but also at the back of the

15:56facility. I drove it four or five times

15:58uh before coming into the meeting here

16:00today.

16:01I think there's still some opportunities

16:03to maybe do some things like uh lane

16:06stacking extensions, arrows, uh things

16:09that would improve the way in which

16:10people go out. I sat there for a number

16:13of hours and observed the traffic.

16:15They're all pedestrian cars going out of

16:17there. They have the rear exit of the

16:20truckyard facility is all closed and

16:22chained off. They use a fac a technology

16:25called Sentinel system. So when truck

16:28drivers come to the facility, they bring

16:29them in through an automated process at

16:31the front entrance. And when they come

16:33into the truckard, they come and and

16:35either drop off a a trailer or pick one

16:38up, they go back out that same way

16:39because of the way the Sentinel system

16:41works. So I say that to say the rear

16:44semiexit that goes out down over the

16:47hill down to 169, they're not using that

16:50for trailers. all the more reason I

16:53think that we can maybe take that area

16:55there and clean up some of the striping

16:57and line work there and improve the way

16:59that we want people to leave the

17:00facility. So, let me pause there and

17:03have Zach I want I want to have Zach

17:05kind of talk about the metric side of

17:08the traffic and then Bob feel free to

17:09collaborate and interact. I think it's

17:11good that we collectively

17:14put our traffic binds together and come

17:16up with the best way to guide this

17:17client on what's best for the town.

17:21So, as we discussed last time, the major

17:24thing we want to do here is to shift the

17:25traffic, as he was saying, um, to

17:29southbound traffic to South Bridge to

17:30the 169 driveway. So, right out, left

17:33in, and all other traffic is already

17:36bound for Route 20. So, they should be

17:38using the route 20 uh, signalized

17:40intersection because there's more

17:42capacity there that's afforded. Um, our

17:45analysis, we looked at two conditions.

17:47is a future condition 2033 with

17:50background projects that are also

17:52proposed uh to the town without a shift

17:56and there was long cues on the 169

17:59driveway uh with more capacity still

18:02afforded at the route 20 intersection.

18:03So we looked at another future condition

18:05with the trip reassignment. What we

18:07found there is that with signal retiming

18:09at route 20 and the route 20 or at the

18:12route 20 driveway and the route 20 and

18:14Route 169 intersection that the capacity

18:18is uh or the operations there will

18:20operate much better that there will be

18:23minimal cues on the 169 intersection. Um

18:27and that's really our plan going

18:28forward. We also have some other

18:29mitigation that we propose as part of

18:31our letter uh which is the signal

18:33retiming also for safety uh reviewing

18:36clearance times yellow and reds um to

18:39address the safety issue. Uh we had a we

18:42offered a collision diagram in there uh

18:44which shows where the crashes are

18:46happening, what the most prevalent types

18:48of crashes are. Um

18:51and that's really the main thing. The

18:54September I'll talk about the monitoring

18:55program briefly. The September and March

18:582025 monitoring programs have been

19:01submitted to DOT and have been approved

19:03conditionally based on us providing uh

19:06the survey data from Amazon employee

19:08survey data which is in relation to the

19:11transportation demand management

19:12program.

19:14Um the March 2026

19:17report is complete but we're awaiting

19:19the survey data from Amazon which we're

19:20working with them currently to get. Uh

19:23and the September 2026 monitoring will

19:25be done by the end of the month with

19:27that data.

19:28Yeah.

19:29So that's where we're at there. Um just

19:33just may I just chair a question about

19:36the September 2025

19:39traffic study.

19:42Is there a way to amend that? I think

19:45there is a a big error in the collection

19:49and presentation of the data for the

19:52morning uh weekday

19:55peak load. It seems like you're trying

19:58to say it was reduced from the original

20:02conditions by 80% which is fantastic but

20:06actually it's over the original design

20:10conditions by 42%. So I think we need an

20:13amendment on the Veness report for

20:16September 2021.

20:18Well, I think that also,

20:20you know, that could be something, but

20:22uh with doing it, you know, by annually

20:26and this March and September, it's going

20:28to have new data which is going to be

20:30more representative of what's happening

20:32out there right now. Um,

20:35so but if you submitted that to Mass D,

20:38maybe [clears throat] there's a quick

20:39correction. You could just make an

20:41amendment to that particular report

20:42would be great. Thank you.

20:50Yeah, I think to that point I

20:52[clears throat] think there was uh

20:55some confusion in how the site trips

20:58were recorded in the monitoring. Um

21:02typically what you would do is um

21:04identify the highest combination of

21:07traffic right between the site and the

21:09adjacent street.

21:11And what the what the proponent has done

21:14in the monitoring is they've consistent

21:16with section 61 finding requirements.

21:18They've gone out and done an earlier

21:20morning count

21:21right earlier than was originally done

21:23for the permitting. I think they start

21:25at 6:00 in the morning

21:27and capturing up to at least 9 or 10:00

21:30in the morning and then likewise in the

21:31afternoon they they had an earlier start

21:333:00 went to 600.

21:35If you look [clears throat] at um I

21:38believe what what the Amazon has

21:39attempted to do is to have an earlier

21:41shift period to avoid the so-called

21:44commuter period which is traditionally

21:46between 7 and 9.

21:48Yeah. So what the monitoring report it

21:52indicated is um the facility peak

21:55traffic generation which in fact occurs

21:58prior to 7:00 in the morning

22:01but the intersection volumes are

22:05cumulatively higher

22:07right and that's the so-called what I

22:09would call the design condition for the

22:11intersection

22:13and it's those the [clears throat]

22:15traffic volumes that the facility is

22:17generating during that intersection peak

22:19hour are higher.

22:21Yeah,

22:22they're not lower. They're not they're

22:24higher than what the record

22:26and that's the point that we made in

22:27here. So I think

22:28okay

22:29um [clears throat]

22:31ideally um well you know it's it's

22:34important to make sure that that's

22:35understood.

22:36Yeah.

22:37Um the design volumes that were used in

22:40evaluating the impact of the project

22:42were done correctly.

22:45uh and [clears throat] they accurate

22:47excuse me they accurately portray u the

22:50capacity impact of the project. Now

22:53we're very much looking forward to the

22:54March and September data because I know

22:57in the submitted materials for the flex

23:00space there were updated counts from

23:02this year

23:04that would indicate that there's been an

23:05uptick again in some of the site related

23:08the design volumes if you will that

23:10happen in the major sections.

23:13I just wanted to clarify.

23:14Yeah. Okay.

23:18Um, would you like me to hit the

23:20highlights of

23:21Yeah, I mean quickly this I think we're

23:23going to summarize this and then get

23:25back to the original site.

23:28Yeah. So to to the to the um conditions

23:31that NASA DOT and the town required

23:34[snorts] the applicant uh was to provide

23:37uh monitoring results if you will within

23:40a month of completing them. Right. And

23:42there's been a little bit of a log jam

23:44in that respect. So, we simply note

23:46that, you know, the upcoming reports now

23:49dating back to March of this year and

23:52last month sound like they're imminent.

23:55Uh, but um what's difficult to do in

23:58recommending actions is to say, okay,

24:02the reason we're doing six month

24:04check-ins is to catch problems early

24:07and be able to rectify them in a

24:09[clears throat] timely way. So, um, we

24:12had a challenging time kind of trying to

24:15chase the dog's tail around this a

24:17little bit. And, uh, you know,

24:19ultimately what we attempted to do is

24:22to, um, uh, work off of our findings in

24:26the monitoring reports and correlate

24:29that to actions that may be appropriate

24:31for the flex use,

24:33which is the subject of today's letter.

24:35Yeah.

24:36Right. So, there's two sets of comments.

24:38One is relating to the monitoring uh and

24:41the mitigation that is suggested uh and

24:45the other is uh specific to the facility

24:48but also mirrors that there's the same

24:52obligation if you will

24:54under the [clears throat] flex space to

24:55achieve the same

24:56progress. Yeah. Um so you know in in

25:00summary that mitigation would

25:02principally target trying to shift

25:04volumes to the route 20 intersection as

25:07as the proponent has indicated.

25:10Um also

25:12um focusing and uh providing a more

25:16detailed assessment of the crash trends

25:17along with 20 because interestingly

25:20crash trends have gone up consistently

25:24for each of the monitoring periods.

25:25Right. Yeah. which I

25:28didn't like to see.

25:29Yeah.

25:30And of course, major contributor to that

25:33is this facility.

25:34Uh so there's a little more homework

25:36that needs to be done. Um they've begun

25:38that process and how they've addressed

25:40the flex use um [clears throat] uh spec

25:43excuse me specifically focused on the

25:46route 2169 intersection. So they have in

25:48fact provided um collision diagramming

25:51and come up with some potential

25:53solutions. Uh that same process needs to

25:56narrow for three other locations.

25:58Yeah. To spread out to those other

26:00Yeah.

26:02[clears throat]

26:02And do you know Zach how Vaness is doing

26:05with the March and the September

26:07traffic studies and reports?

26:09Yeah. The March the March 2026 is done

26:13uh internally. We haven't submitted it

26:14yet because we need the the survey data.

26:18Uh September we're preparing currently.

26:21Mhm.

26:21Um, like I said, that'll be done at the

26:23end of October. Uh, if we receive the

26:26data, which we should

26:28hold up is the survey data from the site

26:31that site had a GM change within the

26:33last 6 months. The new GM was unaware

26:36that that wasn't submitted yet to Vanos.

26:38So, there's a little bit of a

26:40communication delay there between that.

26:41I'm just making that, but absolutely

26:44positive. I got to have that within days

26:46so that Vanos can complete their work.

26:48Is that like a manual

26:50check or electronic or [clears throat] I

26:53don't know the

26:54for the survey?

26:55Yeahve survey. Yeah, it's a it's a link

26:59um that they'll send out to the

27:00employees. They can click on it and then

27:02they it's a short question and then

27:05they'll send it over to us.

27:08So we believe that that can all be

27:09chewed up, you know, pretty quickly

27:11within a short amount of time, brought

27:13back into Vanos,

27:14integrated into the actually goes

27:16through mass first and integrated into

27:19the reports and then doc you can take a

27:20look at that as well.

27:23So we want to get that all taken care of

27:26and recognized.

27:26Yeah. Do do you know Bob how do we

27:29verify whether this adaptive traffic

27:33control system has ever been touched and

27:37implemented?

27:38Yeah. So that's a question we have. We

27:40we have a section in here that

27:42essentially requires that the proponent

27:46validate that the system has been

27:48installed

27:49and that has been fine-tuned

27:52and implemented optimized.

27:54Right.

27:57But there's some intersection here with

27:59mass DOT like they control it or

28:02something like how do we know?

28:04It's incumbent on the proponent to

28:06actually implement that system.

28:08Yeah. subject to permits from master.

28:11So, uh we just simply look for

28:13validation on when the equipment was

28:15installed and the status of any permit

28:18that would relate to that.

28:19So, there should be some paper trail

28:21permits and implementation dates or

28:24something. Okay.

28:25You know, I I I'm [clears throat] not

28:26certain that the system's fully

28:28functional. In my experience in

28:30traveling along the quarter on several

28:31occasions, it suggests that it it's not

28:34working as efficiently as it could. Mhm.

28:36Um the idea between an AC uh an advanced

28:39traffic control system is that it allows

28:42uh for the signal timing settings to

28:46modulate based on demand, right? And

28:49optimize essentially progressive flow.

28:52So you have platoon flow on route 20.

28:55Um that can be complicated by the number

28:59of folks who for instance are turning

29:01from Route 20 to 169. That left turn

29:04handles over 500

29:05turns an hour.

29:06Yeah.

29:07Um where the eastbound 20 approach is

29:11essentially converts into a single lane

29:13pretty pretty abruptly. Um so trying to

29:16balance how efficiencies work there

29:19against where the driveway is in the 20.

29:21They're two different animals, right?

29:24So I I just want to see some paper.

29:26Yeah. Yeah. Good. Keep keep an eye on

29:28that for us, please. Thank you.

29:30Good. Thanks for the summary, gentlemen.

29:32So, is [clears throat] the monitoring

29:34question for the chair um is the

29:36monitoring done just on South Beach Road

29:38and and Sterbridge Road and those

29:40intersections or have you looked at some

29:42of the side streets that have uh

29:44definitely have increased volume since

29:46since Amazon has come

29:47there's a stepped approach to the

29:48monitoring. So the first monitoring

29:50report this date dates back to March

29:522025 started with the premise of looking

29:55at the driveways to understand whether

29:57or not the thresholds that obligated

29:59additional monitoring are met and they

30:03were so uh subsequent to March I believe

30:07it was May of 2025 they went back out

30:10and counted supplemental locations that

30:13included I think four separate locations

30:15along Route 20. uh and those got incor

30:18incorporated into the monitor report.

30:21Good. The subsequent September report

30:23did the whole thing all at once in

30:24September understanding that those

30:26thresholds were were met. So all of the

30:28principally impacted intersections

30:30mainly along the reporting quarter are

30:33included in the monitoring.

30:35I just hear there's a lot [cough] on

30:37[clears throat] like Brookfield Road and

30:39Stafford Street.

30:40Yeah, Stafford especially. So you know

30:43people taking that turn on Stafford

30:45Street could be going either direction.

30:47But I know that the traffic has greatly

30:49picked up there in the past couple of

30:50years.

30:51Oh, for sure. I mean, this is uh this is

30:54the gorilla in the room, right? It's

30:55it's it's it's contributed uh by far the

30:58largest amount of traffic in recent

31:01years to the 20th quarter. Um the

31:04capacity analyses that were submitted in

31:06monitoring do validate that under

31:08today's condition, those intersections,

31:10even though they have a higher volume,

31:13are operating below their capacity.

31:15Right. the level of service D standard.

31:17Um [clears throat] but to the safety uh

31:20aspect the increase in volume while the

31:24capacity may exist has resulted in an

31:27increase consistent increase the

31:30frequency of crashes. So that's the uh

31:33what we're trying to solve

31:45through the chair. I guess a question.

31:46Should we continue uh request a

31:50continuation

31:52for this for

31:53Do you want to do any questions for

31:56Yes, please. Yeah.

31:58Do we have any questions?

31:59Comments. comments from

32:02public.

32:07Um I I it makes sense to

32:09I mean I think what we're hearing is

32:12we're waiting for the traffic studies.

32:13So end of October is uh you know then we

32:17need a peer review on it. So that's

32:19November. How about continue to January

32:21through the holidays for the next visit?

32:27Just one thing. What's our time frame

32:28for [clears throat]

32:30do we have

32:32I would recommend we do continues

32:34[clears throat] to just two weeks out

32:35just because we have KP law where they

32:38can kind of

32:38they are scheduled. Yeah.

32:40Yep. So that way they can can come in

32:41and we can do a little bit of the the

32:43legal proceeding, make sure that we're

32:46proceeding the correct way. And then

32:48from there, we can really get into the

32:50the timeline questions, things like

32:52that, and really make sure that we've

32:54kind of got all our ducks in a row with

32:56everything that we need outstanding to

32:58be answered before we could uh move

33:01forward. And that should give us a lot

33:03more clarity as well for ourselves and

33:05the applicant. Is there anything else

33:07that Amazon needs to do prior to the

33:0921st, which will be our next meeting in

33:12two weeks other than traffic reports?

33:16I think there'll be some activity as you

33:18mentioned just as a result of some of

33:20the things that we picked up. I'm sure

33:22they'll be looking into that.

33:23Yeah, we'll respond to NBM's comments.

33:28Is the goal on the night of the 21st

33:30with the law component? Um, do you want

33:32to talk traffic and law, you know,

33:34procedural what you want to do.

33:36I think I think it might be we should

33:39probably get in touch next week. We'll

33:40kind of figure out where we're at with

33:42everything and then I'll touch base with

33:44you folks and we'll see kind of what

33:45makes the most sense. Uh because once

33:47that hearing is open, the the board has

33:50the flexibility to talk about different

33:51elements of it just as long as we're

33:53scheduled for that 21st. So, uh we can

33:56get in touch early next week on Monday,

33:59Tuesday and then figure out what the

34:00best approach is for that meeting.

34:01Sure.

34:05Monday

34:06opinion would be throttle back on the

34:08traffic. I think there's a couple lists

34:10of other activities here.

34:12That's what I was kind of asking whether

34:14whether [clears throat] you want to try

34:15to tackle both of those on the 21st push

34:17traffic to a little bit later time.

34:19Yeah, just more time for traffic. I

34:22there's no new information

34:26in two weeks. If everything's settled in

34:30two weeks, awesome. But uh no, this will

34:32will most likely be more just the the

34:34legal proceedings

34:35procedural.

34:36Yep. Procedural meeting.

34:38You want us here for that, right?

34:39Um

34:41possibly probably uh we'll talk to uh KP

34:45Law attorneys. We'll see what they think

34:47is the best approach for it. And then if

34:49you folks would like to come, you're

34:50always welcome to come. Um, but whether

34:53it makes more sense to even possibly a

34:56the a call-in instead of having that fly

34:58all the way down here. That might also

34:59be too.

35:00We could do that, too.

35:01Well, it may not be maybe it's just the

35:05GM from the property uh representatives

35:09rather than considering a new

35:10application. I think

35:12Yeah.

35:12You know what I mean?

35:13Yeah.

35:15To answer for some of these other

35:17outstanding issues maybe.

35:18Yeah. He had a scheduling conflict.

35:20Yeah. I try hard to get in here if you

35:22can't be here by

35:24[clears throat]

35:28what was that date?

35:29Uh October 20th.

35:30Make a motion to continue the public

35:32hearing for Amazon RH3 flex delivery to

35:36October 21st.

35:38Second.

35:40All in favor? I

35:41I

35:43Thank you. Thank you guys. I do. Thank

35:45you.

36:01I'm just

36:10slip on that accidentally and um

36:13Oh, yeah. For the obligation. Right.

36:16Right. Right.

36:17I haven't kept track of that stopwatch.

36:21So,

36:22we're still in a good time frame now and

36:24we'll kind of get all the questions

36:26answered if you want so we're not making

36:28any procedural mistakes.

36:31Cool.

36:34So, we have a public hearing. Oh, we

36:39open the public hearing for Apple LLC

36:42and 2853

36:44Road

36:49in SE

36:5120.2 D6J 2.87.1

36:55Um

36:577.1

36:59um 2007.17.2

37:03which I'll be building by lunch and

37:06public hearing by Wednesday, October

37:077th, 2026 at 6 p.m. um in the planning

37:11good office um Apple Trailer Realy LLC

37:15263 Wister Road Child and Math for

37:19special permit and site plan approval to

37:21construct a gravel vehicle storage and

37:23parking area with approximately 695

37:26spaces for company owned vehicles and

37:28equipment including clearing grading

37:31urban beam BMS and storm water detention

37:35basins and soils. No buildings are

37:37proposed. The property is shown on

37:38assessor's map 36 block a parcels one um

37:431.1 and 1.2 and there's no business um

37:46enterprise park [snorts]

37:50I will

37:54open up to the applicant to do a brief

37:57presentation.

37:58Thank you members of the board. My name

38:00is George Kichi. [clears throat] I'm an

38:02attorney office in Weston. I'm

38:04representing the applicant uh Apple

38:07Trailer Realy LLC. Uh with me tonight is

38:10Steve Robinson who's one of the

38:13principles and managers of the uh of

38:16Apple Apple trailer. With me also is

38:20Dian Prowley who is one of the principal

38:22owners of this property. Uh he's asked

38:25that he speak initially to just to give

38:28you a lay of the land, brief history of

38:30the site photo. I'd like to do that then

38:33I can jump back in and give a little

38:36further presentation with it. I also

38:38also with us tonight is Micah Lilla.

38:41He's a professional engineer with

38:43Tropical Land Survey. He's the one who's

38:44actually filed the application and has

38:46advanced uh the application to the board

38:49so far. So he'll be here to answer

38:51technical questions. So uh Mr. Crow just

38:55give the board a history of the

38:57property.

38:57Okay. That's a the photo that was taken

39:01approximately 1986.

39:03Okay. Um my partner and I bought the

39:06property in 1985.

39:09We're both much younger then. And um the

39:12property has never been served by water

39:14and sewer. Even though there's a water

39:16line that runs down here, you know, the

39:18water goes to the turnpike, but we

39:21haven't had it. So, we haven't had a lot

39:24of um expansion over the years because

39:29the the codes have changed where it used

39:32to be um here's an example across from

39:36Samson Road's a 20,000t building. When I

39:39built that just because I and there was

39:42no one I could tap into, I could have

39:45access around it. So, I could build the

39:47money I could build 40,000 square feet.

39:50Well, every year they change or every

39:52few years they change the code. Today,

39:55if I have a building 6,000 square feet

39:57of water, I have to have a sprinkler

39:59system, which means I have to have a

40:00water tank, which means I have to have a

40:02separate meeting building for a general.

40:05So, this has laid daunted for all that

40:07time. Um, in the meantime, I I developed

40:10the uh um when Cohen general went out of

40:13business, I bought that building and I

40:16have 40 acres. I developed the Sturfish

40:18Industrial Park out. I did the IPG

40:20Phonics Park in uh in Oxford and the

40:24Goyer Industrial Park, but I've been

40:28this has been always been the poor

40:29cousin. Okay. So anyway, um this here

40:34was all leveled years ago. This was uh

40:38the Kiw company's uh construction and

40:41mining financing. They were the lead

40:44builder, the lead contractor in the big

40:46diggers Pini uh Keywit Perini and

40:50Cashman, but they were the they financed

40:53the project and they ran the project.

40:56So, this was a lay down area we always

40:58had here for their this is the beginning

41:01of what they had. For example, when the

41:04when the Zika bridge was being built,

41:06they didn't have room for the steel. It

41:09was here. Okay. So over the years this

41:12has been a storage area. Okay. Um and

41:16then along the way we got an earth

41:18removal permit from the board of

41:20selectment. Well back then when we got

41:22that you know there wasn't storm water

41:24management but so we you know we have

41:27this is this site was all prepared for

41:30storm water management and um as well

41:35this site over the years. So then under

41:39our under you know the um earth removal

41:44permit we started this here and then we

41:47were terracing it for either three

41:49buildings and then when Apple came along

41:52they needed vehicle storage. Another

41:54thing you along the history of this when

41:56we started this um about five or six

41:59years into it that's when they started

42:02talking about um Route 20 being rebuilt

42:07and that was for years that was in

42:09process but what the state did they gave

42:12us the turnaround in the entrance so um

42:16so that helped us so so um

42:20so anyway um that that's That's a

42:24history of what we've had here. And um

42:27this is an important um uh a tenant for

42:31ours because uh they're not creating a

42:34lot of traffic. It's about 30 vehicles a

42:37day and you'll hear more about that. But

42:39I mean um in the last four or five years

42:43my partner and I between this and other

42:45land we had and luckily we sold the

42:48piece but we we've paid over a half

42:50million dollars in taxes.

42:53So um um so anyway luckily we've owned

42:58this long enough we don't have any debt.

43:01Um so that that's the history. And we

43:04also have a uh uh I have a drone um

43:09photo you can see. One thing I'd like to

43:11say is um right here [clears throat]

43:13between the agricultural zone here and

43:17here uh there's over 100 foot of tree

43:20buck. Okay. So um um

43:26uh so anyway that's um

43:28what is currently in that area right

43:29now?

43:30What's that?

43:30What's currently in that area right now?

43:32It's just right here

43:33to the right of his def

43:36here.

43:36Yeah.

43:37Oh, that was a borrow.

43:40No. And this here,

43:41we used to own this. We sold this to

43:43what was Zen MCI, which is now Verizon.

43:46Yeah. That's the uh switch center

43:49for all of New England. There's a line

43:51that comes up in Conrail, another one,

43:52the turnpike. There's four dedicated

43:55lines in case one of them is

43:57interrupted. I was more curious on what

43:59was being used on that other that spot

44:01to the left there which is the the lot

44:04that's upgrade from Instafoam. I see

44:06there's like a lot of cars in there or

44:08something up there

44:09in Citr.

44:10Yes.

44:11Oh, and here

44:13is is that

44:14that this is the in this is in situ

44:16right here. Okay.

44:17Yeah. And and here for years um after

44:21Kiwi left this is Cisco.

44:23So every night they bring in 20 reefers.

44:26Okay. And um

44:27so maybe it's that lot that's just on

44:29this side of where the MCI building was.

44:31There's I just it looks like car parking

44:32lot there now.

44:34Okay. Now you you'll see on the video

44:36you'll see on that. Okay. All right.

44:38Thank you.

44:40Thank you. You mind? I'll just play the

44:42next video just

44:46again

44:49comment on

44:51the the driveway coming into the site

44:54from 20

44:58on the big screen.

44:59I didn't I didn't like

45:02Oh yeah. Yeah. Everybody can see it.

45:04Okay.

45:07There's a hard wire. Make it easier if

45:10you want. Okay.

45:11No Wi-Fi.

45:17Might protect it.

45:18H.

45:19Yep. You can use the hard wire if that's

45:20easiest.

45:21That's fine. Yeah.

45:25Troubleshooting otherwise

45:31the product can give us the play by

45:32play.

45:34That's good.

45:37[clears throat]

45:38Yeah. The um [music]

45:40the people that did the video made a

45:42mistake. It's 253 Westerota.

45:45[music]

45:46Excuse me, sir.

45:51[music] Okay, that's the main drive

45:53going in. Uh there's two buildings to

45:55the right. Uh that's a steel fabricator

45:59there. [music]

46:00That building there is a um uh that's a

46:04um solar uh group that that uh that's

46:09their warehouse for their solar thing.

46:11The other one that's a distributor for

46:13uh electric motor

46:15that's existing gravel driveway.

46:16Yeah. Then there's a gravel that's

46:18that's where the cars presently are.

46:20They're for storage. They're not um

46:24uh you know they're they're not in

46:27they're not coming in and out two or

46:29three times a day and that's where we

46:31set the earth removal. So there's you're

46:34going west. Okay.

46:37And then all right then coming back

46:39towards Route 20 that's in Sichuan

46:42building and then to the left you can

46:45see um Cisco

46:54So now you can see Route 20.

47:02There's more automobile storage.

47:05And then uh there's storage there. See

47:08all those timbers? Those are the ones

47:10that you see that go out as they here as

47:12they're rewiring the grit. Those are the

47:14ones they you know so they can cross

47:17over the wetlands. Yeah.

47:19And then that's part of our uh earth

47:23removal. And this has been cleared here.

47:26And then on the other side of the tree.

47:29So you get two barriers of trees before

47:33you reach the blanchet property that's

47:35west of ours.

47:40And then that's a small pond. There's

47:43two ponds there. Someone told me years

47:44ago they were ice ponds. There's one

47:47there. And then there's one in the

47:48Hulkran property just below there. And

47:51then we're coming back out to uh uh

47:55where we started.

47:59So that tree perimeter is remaining.

48:01What's there right now?

48:02That's right. There's two there's

48:04between where this is proposed. There's

48:07two tree perimeters.

48:10So can you go back to the part that

48:13adapts that butts the farm because I

48:15don't think there is two perimeters

48:16there. What do you mean by that? There's

48:18100 ft and that's it.

48:19The video did a good job scooting over

48:21the farm park cuz it's only left where

48:22it isn't.

48:23Well, we were we just we're just looking

48:25at our property.

48:26Oh, are are you the my Okay. I've got a

48:29question for you.

48:30Okay.

48:36Okay. See where the cars are parked now?

48:38That's where we're coming for the permit

48:39tonight. See

48:40this area?

48:41See west of this. See the trees?

48:46all those trees and then there's another

48:49cleared area. But this [clears throat]

48:52So is this the lot for apple? Is this

48:54Yeah, this is the apple lot.

48:55This is this is just I just want to this

49:00one or the other.

49:01Yeah. So you got that barrier of trees

49:03that goes all the way up to I keep

49:05saying MCI Verizon.

49:07This is the agricultural here. Mhm.

49:10Zone change right there.

49:11The zone change is here. We're over

49:13here.

49:13Right. Right. Right.

49:16Correct.

49:18You want to keep

49:23stop?

49:25Somebody had mentioned they wanted to

49:26stop.

49:28Just keep going cuz it's it's the

49:30Okay. See all those trees?

49:32All right.

49:34Tell me when

49:37you need to get up.

49:38Okay. Okay. So, there's the uh

49:41[clears throat] building. Yeah.

49:43This is probably 100 ft of trees between

49:46there.

49:48See the trees here?

49:51They uh there's where we're going south.

49:54There's Route 20.

49:55You're going to turn.

49:56Keep going.

49:57And then if you go over here.

50:03So in this section here, there's no

50:05intention to do anything different than

50:07what you have here. This is not part of

50:08the application. Only

50:11the application is

50:13going up to NCI.

50:15Okay.

50:16Oh, so your application has nothing to

50:17do with this section here.

50:18N 10 acres.

50:20No.

50:20No.

50:21This whole area down here.

50:23That's for the next 50 years.

50:25When we get water, we'll be there.

50:27Can you stop right there?

50:29Is that the farm on the left?

50:30Yeah, that's our farm on the left

50:31corner, but it goes all the way. That's

50:33the northern and the western border.

50:35Yes. We're here. You're really talking

50:37about that property that's up in the

50:38upper right hand corner from left.

50:41Yep. So I'm saying

50:43the property

50:44I'm talking about the part that's

50:44already been done essentially the

50:46gravel.

50:46Yeah.

50:48So why did they why did they clear all

50:49this then?

50:50Because

50:51over the last two years.

50:52Why is that?

50:53How come this was all cleared then?

50:54I know they you know what the guy the

50:56the guy that did the clearing for me I

50:58think he wanted some longer.

51:02All right. So

51:03that makes it right. Huh? Well, no, but

51:05I mean you know that you know you're not

51:08around your property though and you

51:10don't know why he did it. It's your

51:11property but you don't know why somebody

51:13did it.

51:13No, someone else said I

51:15Okay, but your property

51:18you're you're pushing all these

51:19predators onto my

51:20Okay. Well, okay. Can I ask you a

51:22question? I know. I want to respect your

51:24rights, right?

51:25It [snorts] doesn't seem like

51:26Can you tell me why you put a drain onto

51:29my property? I believe the stone wall.

51:31There's a green pipe, but one foot pipe,

51:34a green pipe under your our dividing

51:37wall.

51:38I didn't do it.

51:38Well, maybe the previous person did.

51:40Okay. I apologize. I mean, I I'll

51:42address it if it needs to be addressed,

51:43but I didn't do it.

51:44Okay. Well, see, I didn't. No,

51:47but I mean this your your buffer is

51:49still there. We left. There's a

51:52The buffer is there, but not if you're

51:54putting 600 because there was a lease. I

51:56saw

51:58that they were trying to lease the land.

51:59I saw a listing.

52:00That's correct. Sorry.

52:01Last year.

52:02Yeah.

52:03So,

52:04so that's why I'm concerned.

52:07The focus again.

52:10I'm not trying to come to anybody.

52:12You're allowed to do whatever you want

52:13with your land. I just want to be

52:14protected.

52:16So, the application before us is part

52:18part of the 102 acres that is owned by

52:21the applicant. We're proposing 10 acres

52:24here. That's already been cleared. You

52:26kind of went through the history of um

52:28some of the layown areas.

52:30So these are just existing conditions.

52:32But

52:34I'm going to flip over.

52:37This was that driveway where that

52:39currently is being utilized with the

52:41vehicles. And just continuing that

52:46that pattern tiered up one level here, a

52:50second level,

52:52a third, and a fourth. Working within

52:54that. Okay.

52:55I'm going to ask you to move that to the

52:57film back just so the we can still shot

53:00to show the area of this parcel that's

53:03actually under consideration. We're

53:05proposing

53:06um

53:08right there. That's great. So, what he

53:10was what Mike was just M was just saying

53:13is this area right here and where those

53:15cars are, you can see that this area

53:18right here north of that are two

53:22plateaued proposed additional

53:25storage areas which are those areas

53:28here. They're located um at the furthest

53:33eastern extent of the property before

53:35you reach the budding properties and as

53:37far away from the farm as possible. And

53:40all of those trees that you see now on

53:42the video on the image, those are

53:45staying there. That vegetative buffer

53:47that's shown is stayed. So there's no

53:51additional proposal for um alteration of

53:55that area. It is the area that you see

53:57cleared going to be um converted into

54:02pocket facil pocket storage facilities

54:04that you see consistent with the with

54:07this area right there. You can see in

54:09the there's overburden piles and there's

54:12going to be those are going to be

54:14removed. So there's going to be

54:14alteration along that tree line and the

54:16implementation of storm water

54:18storm water management. So

54:20and and the property is going to be

54:22continued as it is a gravel surface. Um

54:25the intent is to do country drainage

54:28with swailes directing water to 74 bays

54:32and to infiltration areas prior to

54:34discharging into into the wetland areas.

54:36Subsequent to this proceeding, we also

54:39need to go before the conservation

54:41commission as we're within the

54:43jurisdiction of wild protection act. So

54:46that that's another process that uh we

54:49need to go through. But they requested

54:51that we come to this board first because

54:53this is a special permit for this land

54:55use. So let's get special use first

54:59wrapped up. And because the planning

55:00board is the storm water

55:03authority

55:05for the for your bylaws.

55:07So how many acres is this again?

55:10This is approximately 10 acres of the

55:12the land you see is approximately 10

55:14acres out of 102.

55:17Is it going to be landed?

55:19I know. So, this is this is not

55:22[clears throat]

55:22um as you might consider like a

55:24traditional parking lot. This is a

55:25storage facility. This is um storage for

55:29um new vehicles. Uh very limited

55:32activity coming in. They're looking at

55:34less than probably about 25 to 30 trips

55:37maximum day. Most of the vehicles come

55:39in by um carrier. Um some logs can come

55:44in if they they bring them in uh

55:45individually, but it's mostly carrier

55:48offloading storage out, you know, then

55:51they're moving them out as as needed.

55:53But [clears throat] you're probably

55:54looking at about 25 to 30 trips a day

55:58max.

55:58Is that what is happening there right

56:00now? Cuz I didn't even know.

56:02Yeah.

56:05New vehicles or

56:06they're new vehicles.

56:07Brand new.

56:08Everybody here flex car. They're owned

56:11by Avis. Yeah.

56:12So instead of um this is what people in

56:14the automotive business tells me. People

56:17buy a car and they get eight years to

56:19pay for it. Well, it wears out in five.

56:22So now here's you can rent a car by the

56:24month. They take care of the service,

56:26the tires and all that. Let's say you

56:29got an $800 a month car because you get

56:30a good job, you lose your job, come back

56:32next month, get one for 350. So they

56:35have a So that's why they have to have

56:37so many cars. They have their showroom

56:41is in Auburn. If you go over 395, the

56:44first of the automobile that is

56:46flexible.

56:47There'll be no building proposed.

56:49There's no building, no employees really

56:51here. Uh or minimal employees if there

56:54are, you know, employees, but it's a um

56:57it's really just a storage facility for

56:59that. Um so,

57:01excuse [clears throat] me for cars.

57:04I'll open up to the public when it hits

57:06the board and then I'll open up I mean,

57:09there may be trucks, you know, but it's

57:11it's it's a it's a vehicle storage, you

57:13know, facility, freight, but they're

57:15they're considered freight because it's

57:18um you know, it's not it's coming in

57:20bulk uh and going out in bulk. Um

57:23there's no repairs there. There's no

57:25garage, you know, no service

57:28maintenance. There's, you know, they're

57:29not uh doing any repair work on the

57:32vehicles. They come in, stock them off,

57:34move them out as needed. Um that's what

57:37the the application proposes. Um the uh

57:42it's it's a relatively benign use

57:44because there's as I said there's no um

57:48no no buildings, no employees, no you

57:52know no demand on municipal services. Uh

57:55and you know it's generating 25 30 trips

58:00a day. Um, even with that, the total

58:04number of vehicles that's contemplated

58:06is about 350 to 400 tops. So, that's

58:10what they're looking at. I think I had

58:12read something they were talking about

58:14695.

58:16That's the Yeah, the geometric how much

58:17area physically fit per your parking

58:21requirements.

58:22But practically speaking, you're looking

58:24at less than uh 400 vehicles um in

58:27storage there. Uh, vehicles are going to

58:29be registered. So, uh, that's there's

58:32not an issue with, you know, unsightly

58:34and they're all new. And Ian, as you can

58:37see by the video, it's pretty far north

58:41of one of Route 20. It's not, you know,

58:43right down on the road. Um, it's it's

58:46not going to have a lot of traffic and

58:47not have a lot of visibility. It's

58:49located away and plateaued um and um

58:53surrounded by vegetation except what has

58:57to be altered for uh storm water

58:59management.

59:01So you're saying there'd be absolutely

59:03no working around any of these vehicles

59:05at that location?

59:07No, no working, no working.

59:09I mean, even down to, you know, the

59:12smallest repair or something. They had

59:14that shop in Auburn to do all that.

59:16Yeah. Well, I'm just trying to clarify

59:20trying to clarify.

59:21This is not um no repeal work. Um I mean

59:25I I would imagine they brushed the snow

59:27off the cars if it's you know went there

59:29and they got to get them out um or they

59:31may do that in but I you know I suspect

59:34that that's what they do but no no

59:36repair work no maintenance no oil

59:39changes uh no facilities proposed for

59:42that. They don't want to do that there.

59:44This is uh this is really a storage

59:47facility for those vehicles.

59:48So, you're saying if the thing had a

59:50flat tire or something like that, it' be

59:51towed out and fixed in Auburn and

59:54brought back to there if it was needed.

59:55That's correct. Yes. Yeah.

59:57All right.

59:59What's the How long do they stay here?

1:00:02Not the number of trips, but I mean, how

1:00:04long would that car stay

1:00:05one particular car? It's it's

1:00:07it's really hard to say to be honest

1:00:09with you. I mean, every car is

1:00:10different, you know.

1:00:11Yeah.

1:00:12They're plated from different states

1:00:14also. So,

1:00:15Right. So then they're registered where

1:00:18who's what is the excise town? Excise

1:00:21tax town.

1:00:22It's going to it's just it varies

1:00:25because they're from all over the

1:00:27country.

1:00:28Correct.

1:00:30And who's the owner of the vehicle?

1:00:32I mean the technical owner would be Flex

1:00:35Car.

1:00:35Flex Car. Exactly.

1:00:36And where are they headquartered?

1:00:38Um I believe they're out of Florida.

1:00:41Yeah.

1:00:44[clears throat]

1:00:47Now, are all these vehicles registered

1:00:49right now?

1:00:50Oh, yeah. Registered.

1:00:53You don't pay if you're leasing, you

1:00:55don't have an insurance bill. You don't

1:00:57have maintenance. And that's why it's a

1:00:59popular and Herz is going into the same

1:01:01business.

1:01:04And none of these are EVs that you're

1:01:06saying.

1:01:07That's a good question. No, we don't

1:01:09have any set up for that. Um, doesn't

1:01:12look like we would be

1:01:14Mhm.

1:01:16Cuz then we need power.

1:01:21I'll say that it's going to be accessed

1:01:24by the existing system of roadway. So

1:01:26we're not proposing any new, you know,

1:01:28roadway design inside. It's all the, you

1:01:31know, just building out on existing

1:01:34infrastructure.

1:01:38Now, do you like have a storage trail or

1:01:40an office here? anything for the

1:01:41employees that you have yet?

1:01:43We we don't. I mean, there might be like

1:01:44a 20 or 40 foot storage container that

1:01:46would have like um shovels and like

1:01:49miscellaneous stuff like that, you know.

1:01:52So, you have no employees

1:01:54[clears throat] on the property at all?

1:01:55No.

1:01:56Employees on the property? No.

1:01:58Well, only when they come to get the

1:02:00car.

1:02:00Yeah. Pick up, drop off,

1:02:03check in.

1:02:07Um and what's the surface material?

1:02:10gravel. Just grab

1:02:13and that's who owns the cars right now.

1:02:16These are flex our cars right now

1:02:19in there. Yeah.

1:02:21Now, do you have any sanitary facilities

1:02:24there for the people coming in and out

1:02:26that big?

1:02:27We do. We have a porta body

1:02:28port. Yeah.

1:02:29Yeah. A couple

1:02:37in like 5 minutes.

1:02:40are pretty uh ephemeral.

1:02:47Open up some questions to the public

1:02:49questions from the public.

1:02:54[clears throat]

1:02:54Was this uh has there any work been done

1:02:56on that property so far?

1:02:59It it's cleared as you can see. I mean,

1:03:01this is what what you're seeing is

1:03:03current condition.

1:03:04Did you have permits to do that at that

1:03:06time? No, we we we we're in the um we

1:03:10crossed six feet into the buffer zone.

1:03:11We're going to cease and desist and then

1:03:13because of the new um storm water

1:03:16management law, the EPA came up. They

1:03:19walked the wholeund and some odd acres

1:03:21with us and they said, "Why don't you

1:03:24just finish rip wrapping the slope?" So

1:03:26we started that and we got even though

1:03:28the EPA and the two women that came out

1:03:31were both uh civil engineers they told

1:03:34us what to do and then the conservation

1:03:37commission stopped us. So after we go

1:03:39through storm water management go back

1:03:41to conservation and then we can finish

1:03:43it.

1:03:44Okay.

1:03:45I mean it's there are a number of

1:03:48permits for any project. You have to get

1:03:50on that carousel at some place and the

1:03:53most logical place to get on is on it.

1:03:55If there if it's not permitted, you

1:03:57don't get it. It doesn't do much good

1:04:00getting uh concom. So, you come here

1:04:02first, get your blessing, you know, and

1:04:06uh advance to the next stage.

1:04:13Any additional questions? Well, how can

1:04:15we pass or or say okay if he's already

1:04:17in violation?

1:04:19We're not in violation of of zoning.

1:04:21Shut down.

1:04:22Not by zoning. So, we we're in front of

1:04:25this board because it's a zoning issue,

1:04:27then we go before the concommen

1:04:30will deal with it

1:04:31and and planning board deals with storm

1:04:33water management. So when the planning

1:04:35board okays storm water management then

1:04:38we go to conservation

1:04:41and uh and chair if I may the uh media

1:04:44segment this is in violation. This is

1:04:46done without a permit but this meeting

1:04:48would be the path to remedying that. So

1:04:52that's why we're here tonight.

1:04:54Thank you.

1:04:57Good. Can I just ask when did the

1:05:00proposed So I I'm not I it seems like

1:05:04I'm a little off base here because what

1:05:06my thought was what was where this

1:05:08proposal was going was directly behind

1:05:11my clock. Um and the reason being is

1:05:13because last September there was a a

1:05:15listing on Loopnet for Apple Realy um

1:05:21proposing uh parking long-term tractor

1:05:24trailer storage parking. So that's where

1:05:26I'm coming from. And then clearly they

1:05:28started clearing the land. So that's my

1:05:30assumption of what was going on. So

1:05:32clearly something changed. Um when did

1:05:35that happen and what changed? Cuz that

1:05:39land was fully wooded and I know there

1:05:42was a a drainage what's the swale thing

1:05:46water catchment system that was directly

1:05:48behind the stone wall that's now gone.

1:05:51So behind which stone wall?

1:05:53Behind the corner of my cow field. There

1:05:55was a water cachment basin thing there.

1:05:58Well, we didn't put it there.

1:06:01Right behind your house. Right beside

1:06:02your line, your property line

1:06:04on the north side of the bar. Correct.

1:06:07How many feet from your line? I'm not

1:06:10sure where she's to the chair. We can

1:06:12identify which property is not 50 or so

1:06:16feet from it.

1:06:17Yeah, [clears throat] it was 50 ft.

1:06:19So, that's that's not this property that

1:06:20we're talking about tonight, though.

1:06:21What's that? Well, it's always that's

1:06:23what I was 102 acres. Same property.

1:06:26It's the same property. He's leasing a

1:06:27portion of the property. Internal

1:06:29internal

1:06:31was it was 102 acres and this was being

1:06:34cleared behind my house. So, I assumed

1:06:36it was going

1:06:37and this overlaps over three parcels

1:06:38actually to get into the there's three

1:06:40separate parcels. So, the application

1:06:42includes all of it because it's all

1:06:44under the

1:06:45but the earth what I'm saying is the

1:06:46earth was moved on this property all

1:06:50behind my farm.

1:06:51The land was moved. There wasn't trees

1:06:53weren't just knocked down. Earth was

1:06:55moved.

1:06:55No, no. Where we are? How far away are

1:06:57we from? How far is this?

1:07:00You're right. We're definitely not

1:07:01talking about that. She's talking to the

1:07:04left of this that is over there.

1:07:07Wait, we're not talking.

1:07:08Yeah, I'm not sure where what is this.

1:07:11Um,

1:07:12I mean I

1:07:13go ahead. if the only because we'd like

1:07:17to go home before midnight. This is

1:07:20really um the uh just off talking. Um um

1:07:25um I'm sure Mr. Patty will, you know,

1:07:27have a conversation after he's he's that

1:07:30kind of person. But we have to kind of

1:07:32focus the the this hearing to this

1:07:36sure property.

1:07:36I mean, it's still a bust my property.

1:07:38So, but it's it's far enough away where

1:07:40I don't really have a problem with it at

1:07:43all. Okay.

1:07:44Um the way as it stands I really don't I

1:07:47mean but again I was just confused

1:07:49because it was listed as that parcel and

1:07:52that's the one that was cleared and all

1:07:54the work was going on and all the

1:07:55clearing which is affecting

1:07:58and my property.

1:07:59Yeah. It's part of the whole 100 some

1:08:01odd

1:08:02you know.

1:08:03Sure.

1:08:04You know originally we had about 170

1:08:06acres and then we sold the piece to what

1:08:09was NMZI when they went bankrupt. That's

1:08:11for

1:08:11No, I have no problem with this. So, do

1:08:13you want to follow?

1:08:15This is probably the the easiest use

1:08:17that you could possibly

1:08:19far enough away

1:08:20and there's not even any light.

1:08:21No, again, she's she reinforced we're

1:08:24actually not here for this. We thought

1:08:25we were here for the part that was

1:08:26cleared this year, which is to the left

1:08:28of this

1:08:29and if there is and if there is

1:08:31activity, you will get a notification.

1:08:33I didn't though.

1:08:34This has been going on for two years.

1:08:38There's nothing being built on there

1:08:40yet. So,

1:08:42clearing if that makes sense.

1:08:44So if I may well I mean I I would say it

1:08:46it it's a valid concern just because

1:08:49this project had gone on to this point

1:08:52without any permits. Um and it was

1:08:55Concom who issued a cease and desist

1:08:57that kind of brought this all to light

1:08:59that none of this project had been

1:09:01permitted which now the applicant is is

1:09:02here today for for that permitting. But

1:09:05then that same concern that there's

1:09:07another area that's being cleared that

1:09:09no permits have been sought for. I can

1:09:12definitely see a concern of being back

1:09:15here in a year or two asking for

1:09:17forgiveness again once a business has

1:09:19already been established there. So

1:09:22something I could do as part of this

1:09:23project is condition this that that area

1:09:27specifically nothing is going to be done

1:09:30over there. And then if you did want to

1:09:32modify that, that would require

1:09:33communist board saying, "Hey, we are

1:09:35looking to use that section of the

1:09:38property for whatever that use may be.

1:09:41So if everyone's okay with that, that's

1:09:44requires our oversight."

1:09:46Correct. Just saying.

1:09:49What's already there, if that's all

1:09:50going to stay there, no tractor, no no

1:09:52uses shall go on there other than what's

1:09:54currently

1:09:55that big hill, right,

1:09:57would have to come before you for storm

1:09:59water management. So everybody have a

1:10:01shot at us again. Okay.

1:10:03So So that'd be okay, right? Because you

1:10:05said that's a 50-year project. So

1:10:08hey, listen. I bought the property in

1:10:101985

1:10:11and I've

1:10:13I would if if I didn't own this all the

1:10:16other property that I bought over the

1:10:18years. Um, and I didn't I didn't I

1:10:21wasn't born with a silver, but I mean,

1:10:24um, for example, I had the I own the 90

1:10:28acres where the water towers are, right?

1:10:31I've had three big projects proposed and

1:10:35uh, like remember the shopping center

1:10:37with the supermarket and the Lowe's two,

1:10:40the bottom fell out in 2008.

1:10:43Sure.

1:10:43And here I'm still still sitting on

1:10:46that. Okay. And that's the way the

1:10:48business is. But I luckily and then when

1:10:50uh IPG futonics came uh we didn't have

1:10:56the we were still fighting with

1:10:58Selfridge for water for the 90 acres of

1:11:00the water towers. So I put them on

1:11:03luckily I own 100 acres in Boxford and I

1:11:07put them there.

1:11:08Yeah. Now we're absolutely well known

1:11:10that you own a lot of land but I don't

1:11:12think that was a question. just, you

1:11:14know, if you would agree what he said,

1:11:15then I think everyone would go happy and

1:11:17you'd get the permit again.

1:11:18I agree.

1:11:19And why don't we do this? Seemed

1:11:20probably the previous owner put that

1:11:22pipe in my land. I'll come see you and

1:11:24I'll give you an easement

1:11:26just so just so in good faith,

1:11:30right?

1:11:30Where is the pipe?

1:11:31Yeah.

1:11:33[laughter]

1:11:34Where?

1:11:35My my uh my

1:11:38We can talk later. It's fine. Yeah, they

1:11:40want to finish this. I respect that.

1:11:42So, this is the area.

1:11:43though.

1:11:44Yeah.

1:11:46Thank you. [clears throat]

1:11:48That Thank you for coming.

1:11:50Yeah, that that spot.

1:11:53That's the condition that they're

1:11:55referring to.

1:11:57That was only wooded two years ago.

1:11:59Yep.

1:12:00No problem.

1:12:00So, that's basically what we're hoping

1:12:02to accomplish. That's why we're here

1:12:04tonight. Um

1:12:06happy to address any issues or there's

1:12:08engineering or project issues. So

1:12:10there's there's a uh engineering

1:12:12[clears throat] letter from from Graves

1:12:15for peer review.

1:12:16Correct. And we're we're in process um

1:12:20addressing that primarily

1:12:22um clarification. I believe they weren't

1:12:25uh they didn't have the project name or

1:12:27misplaced it and like where's the build?

1:12:29Is there any buildings? They were

1:12:30confused as to the scope of what they're

1:12:32looking at and and they just wanted

1:12:34clarification with some of the labeling

1:12:36that's clear. um following labeling as

1:12:40far as

1:12:42storm water basins and and such and

1:12:45basically plan cleanup. Okay. And just

1:12:47for clarification purposes,

1:12:49is this something that can be cleaned up

1:12:50in the next couple of weeks?

1:12:51Yeah, we're we're in process.

1:12:53We need this to the 21st.

1:12:54Yeah, we're in process right now. That's

1:12:56actually I was working on

1:12:57there's enough outstanding I don't think

1:12:58the board would be comfortable

1:13:00conditioning.

1:13:01I mean we can get this yet. Yes, I we

1:13:04can

1:13:04it all seems like little things, but

1:13:06there's a lot of little things

1:13:08and I and a lot of them what I was

1:13:09reading through is misinterpretation or

1:13:12not having a clarity of what

1:13:15the applicant's proposing.

1:13:18Okay.

1:13:18And Madam Chair, I know we had the fire

1:13:20chief had uh some concern.

1:13:22Hi, how are you? Um what's the width of

1:13:26the travel lanes?

1:13:2824 ft.

1:13:29Okay. in the the radius terms. Do we

1:13:33know

1:13:34are we gonna for the fire apparatus?

1:13:36Yeah, we we're going to do swift paths.

1:13:38We're gonna that's part of the what

1:13:39we're going to include in

1:13:40Okay. for the current parking lot and

1:13:43the proposed.

1:13:44Correct.

1:13:44Okay.

1:13:45Yeah. So, that that has that's also

1:13:47being worked on right now.

1:13:49Okay. As long as that is adequate,

1:13:51that's all I care about because there's

1:13:54a lot of cars there and

1:13:55you want to be able to get in and out

1:13:57just as the trucks

1:13:58for you guys

1:13:59for you guys. You know,

1:14:01one one car ignites and we can't get our

1:14:04apparatus there. It's a lot of cars are

1:14:07going to catch so

1:14:09and be able to get in

1:14:10be willing to change the radiuses to fit

1:14:12their

1:14:13I think it's it's flexible. Again, it's

1:14:15not marked spaces so things can be

1:14:17easily moved. I don't have any.

1:14:19Well, they can be easily moved, but

1:14:20unfortunately, if they can be easily

1:14:22moved, then they can

1:14:23be easily blocked.

1:14:24be easily blocked. So, we have to come

1:14:26up with a way in order for them not to

1:14:29be blocked. So, that way

1:14:31in the event that we have to get our

1:14:33apparatus there, the lanes are always

1:14:35remain open so that way the trucks can

1:14:38come in. So, so however you guys figure

1:14:40that out, that's for you guys to figure

1:14:42out um that they can be somehow easily

1:14:46marked so that way they don't get

1:14:47blocked and the apparatus can come and

1:14:50make the turns. And we can give you the

1:14:52turning uh radiuses of our uh of our

1:14:54engine. And we don't necessarily care

1:14:56about the ladder truck in this uh type

1:14:58of situation, but more of our engines to

1:15:00be able to come in

1:15:01um and make it. That's something that

1:15:03the applicant can we can talk to is a

1:15:06movable

1:15:08cones or some sort of barrels or

1:15:10something that can be easily

1:15:13marked off your apartment.

1:15:15Any sort of gate to get in? Is it um

1:15:19locked gate to get to or is it

1:15:21We would like to put a gate up so we're

1:15:23not having you know so we can keep

1:15:25anybody Yeah.

1:15:25We'll make sure that the fire department

1:15:27gets uh access to that.

1:15:29We do that. Yeah.

1:15:30Whatever that is.

1:15:31Yes. Is it on the plans?

1:15:33I I have not.

1:15:34Okay. So, that's something we can

1:15:36That will need to be on the plans too if

1:15:38it's something that's going to be in the

1:15:39budget.

1:15:41Gate in the lock box.

1:15:42EAS box. Yeah.

1:15:46Make a motion to continue this hearing

1:15:48for October 21 for Apple. Excuse me.

1:15:54Second.

1:15:56All in favor? I subject.

1:16:04Thank you.

1:16:06Thank you.

1:16:07Thank you so much.

1:16:13So, we've continued.

1:16:15Sorry.

1:16:18Thank you folks. Have a great day.

1:16:24Thanks.

1:16:37My dad was one of one.

1:16:52Yeah. Yeah. Emily's are back.

1:16:57Welcome back.

1:17:10Yep. This one might not take that long

1:17:13because we're not allowed to modify it.

1:17:15Okay.

1:17:17Mostly a recommener, don't they?

1:17:20things for us.

1:17:23In accordance with MGL 4A um and 2125

1:17:28zoning bylaw, the child will be public

1:17:31hearing on Wednesday, October 7, 2026 in

1:17:34the planning office

1:17:37building. Um

1:17:42on the following proposed amendments to

1:17:44the child and zoning bylaw sponsored by

1:17:47the plain board for town meeting. Um,

1:17:50amend 202.1 uses instructions to add a

1:17:53definition of data center. Um, two,

1:17:57amend 203.2B,

1:17:59use regulation schedule to add new uses

1:18:02um data centers as not allowed in all

1:18:05zoning districts. And three, add a new

1:18:07200

1:18:105.23 data centers establishing an

1:18:13interim prohibition of data centers and

1:18:16direct employment. studied the use and

1:18:19report its findings in any proposed

1:18:21regulations. The town meeting no later

1:18:22than 2028 annual town meeting following

1:18:26the hearing of will vote on its

1:18:27recommendations. The town meeting as to

1:18:29whether the proposed amendment should be

1:18:31adopted.

1:18:33All right. Uh I will go ahead and

1:18:35introduce this. Uh we last talked about

1:18:38data centers. You folks asked if I could

1:18:40put something together in time for the

1:18:41warrant. I was able to get something

1:18:43together uh which you have here before

1:18:45you. But given just the nature of the

1:18:47timeline to get the advertisements out

1:18:49uh ahead of town meeting uh it is now

1:18:53stands as is on the warrant articles. Um

1:18:56so I'll just kind of briefly run through

1:18:59uh it's essentially as you know the

1:19:01adding the definition of the data

1:19:03center. Um one of the issues I could see

1:19:06there was that without a definition of

1:19:08the closest use which in our case I

1:19:10believe would have been just heavy

1:19:12industrial. Um so this clearly states

1:19:15what a data center is. It makes an

1:19:17exception for you know a subsidiary use

1:19:21like we have a data center here in town

1:19:23hall but clearly not at the same scale.

1:19:26Um

1:19:27and so we define that we essentially say

1:19:31not allowed in all zones and then we

1:19:34actually create a uh portion here in the

1:19:39uh the bylaw 200-5-23

1:19:42data centers and again purpose is just

1:19:45saying that this is a moratorium it's

1:19:47not a ban um and the big one here is the

1:19:52what it is that we want to study and

1:19:54report before we actually modify the

1:19:57section. So, zoning districts, where we

1:19:59want to have them in town, electrical

1:20:01supply, just really making sure that we

1:20:03have all of that in order. We want to uh

1:20:06craft a bylaw making sure that meet

1:20:10certain criteria such as things like

1:20:12don't put um you know undue burden on

1:20:15the electrical system, water supply,

1:20:18noise, dimensional uh air quality, storm

1:20:22water traffic which not too concerned

1:20:24for the data center but always worth

1:20:26having in there as well. And then

1:20:27decommission is the big one. Fiscal

1:20:30impacts and consistency with the town of

1:20:33Charleston's master plan. Those are the

1:20:35big ones that we want to make sure that

1:20:36we have addressed between now and 2028.

1:20:39Then we can actually have how uh and

1:20:42where we would permit a data center. Uh

1:20:46we have plenty of time uh over the next

1:20:49year to look into that. My initial

1:20:51thought is probably going to be special

1:20:53permit rather than site plan approval,

1:20:54but we'll uh we'll be able to make um I

1:20:58think strong findings that would be need

1:21:00to be made. So that way if we were ever

1:21:03to permit a data center, if they want to

1:21:04come in with their own power, their own

1:21:06water, keeping it far back from

1:21:10everything, well screened as opposed to

1:21:12kind of just showing up saying we're

1:21:13putting this here and you folks are

1:21:14dealing with that.

1:21:16So I think there's enough information

1:21:17out there to help us along the way.

1:21:21I think that's 2008 is doable. And where

1:21:25did um the definition

1:21:28where did you get it from? I'm just

1:21:33um just putting it together. Yeah. Uh

1:21:37with uh Google searches and with help

1:21:39with AI, you know,

1:21:41other towns have done the same thing.

1:21:44Yeah. Excellent.

1:21:45We're not reinventing the wheel.

1:21:47Exactly. 25. I just didn't know if there

1:21:49was an official definition through the

1:21:51state yet

1:21:55four or five years. Wait till

1:21:58Yeah, I think one of the things we'll

1:21:59probably update the definition, but

1:22:01again, I was really putting something

1:22:02together for it was fine. I was just

1:22:04curious if you just if it was

1:22:07we didn't get any um little subdivisions

1:22:11in the last week, have we?

1:22:13No. No. I think

1:22:14remember that happened with the solar

1:22:16[laughter]

1:22:16Yeah. 10.

1:22:18Remember that's why Allan used to have

1:22:20an appointment. No dropping anything off

1:22:21once you have an appointment, you know.

1:22:23But no, they because of the uh it

1:22:25freezes

1:22:25exactly zoning. Yeah. So

1:22:27appointment00

1:22:37minimum.

1:22:41Um, I'll make a motion that the board

1:22:42recommends these um draft board articles

1:22:46for the time. Second,

1:22:50I

1:22:53we're all going to sit up front like the

1:22:55select men do, but like in the front row

1:22:58and then all take turns saying that I

1:23:00make a motion so we can be cool like

1:23:02them, right? [laughter] Everybody's

1:23:04planning that night off.

1:23:06Oh, absolutely.

1:23:12my whole master plan.

1:23:13Well, let's everybody else

1:23:16ask a question. Is that okay?

1:23:19Dylan Michelle Chmer, how are you?

1:23:22Great to meet you, Michelle.

1:23:23Nice to meet you. And thank you.

1:23:25Obviously, I just wanted to say thank

1:23:26you for doing this. I know had reached

1:23:28out to you and asking you about um what

1:23:30was in place, what does the town have in

1:23:33place and obviously you worked very

1:23:35quickly to make sure that wait a second,

1:23:38somebody could come in here um and

1:23:40obviously have that um happen before you

1:23:44actually as a board and as a town for us

1:23:46to decide if this is actually what we

1:23:49even want in the community. And so I

1:23:52guess what I'm asking just as a

1:23:54clarification is that now that you have

1:23:58sort of highlighted these issues that

1:24:02could potentially

1:24:03um you know restrict someone from coming

1:24:06in saying they want a data center. um uh

1:24:12when let's say you know the vote comes

1:24:15on October 19th and these bylaws or the

1:24:18changes to the bylaws are accepted. What

1:24:21happens if someone does put in a request

1:24:24in that meantime? So because I think I

1:24:26heard you say it's not a moratorum but

1:24:29it does it

1:24:29it is a mortorium.

1:24:30It is a mortorium until 2028.

1:24:33Until 2028. Okay. So anybody putting in

1:24:38for a data center in the meantime before

1:24:41you all are able to review this and then

1:24:432028 happens then you would just sort of

1:24:48keep that I don't know what it's called

1:24:50the um

1:24:52the application

1:24:52the application

1:24:53so the application would be denied

1:24:54because we don't allow them okay

1:24:57they'd have to wait till we had rules

1:25:00so it is more than a majority it's the

1:25:03two sides right of the two/3

1:25:07of acceptance for at the meeting and um

1:25:10it has to also go through the state for

1:25:11approval. So they could

1:25:13they could actually deny it and say you

1:25:15can't

1:25:16um I'm not sure if the other towns or

1:25:20cities that did this it it went through

1:25:22the whole process. It takes sometimes a

1:25:23few months um to get

1:25:26to get the bylaws updated from legal

1:25:28review from the state. Absolutely. Um

1:25:30and so the town will be voting and

1:25:32twothirds of the town must vote

1:25:36in agreement with these three measures.

1:25:39Y

1:25:40okay and I know that the governor has

1:25:42already put a moratorium on data centers

1:25:45across the state unless the town agrees

1:25:49um that they want one. Um so I'm sure

1:25:52that the governor will will be in

1:25:56approval hopefully.

1:25:57The governor We're doing it. We're doing

1:25:59it now so that when the government

1:26:01changes their minds, whereas government,

1:26:04[laughter] we already have something in

1:26:05place.

1:26:05Already have something in place. Okay.

1:26:07All right. And then so let's say in

1:26:102028, you do your due diligence and you

1:26:14basically have uploaded, you know, or

1:26:16changed the bylaws and then someone does

1:26:19come in. Then what's that process in the

1:26:23sense if the community um will the

1:26:26community still have a say as to whether

1:26:29the data center is permitted or do these

1:26:32changes and bylaws somehow

1:26:35restrict us from a town being able to

1:26:38say that

1:26:39when we're ready to um you know we we do

1:26:41the research and we potentially um bring

1:26:44in our consulting attorney um look at

1:26:47look at other towns um I most likely um

1:26:51you know we need we need tax money and

1:26:54we need revenue. So it's not like we

1:26:56would go in there and say we're going to

1:26:57ban them unless unless there was a good

1:27:00enough reason to say we never ever want

1:27:02one of these. It could potentially be

1:27:03that with all the research. However, we

1:27:05may have hearing what's happening

1:27:07country very good um locations like you

1:27:11know any of the sort of like the heavy

1:27:13industrial areas where that where

1:27:15they're well um uh well you know well

1:27:20shaded from you know other like

1:27:22residences or anything else. Um just

1:27:24remember it's it is more than that

1:27:26though it's it's more of a business. We

1:27:28have to always balance with economic

1:27:30devel like we need to balance our tax

1:27:32money. Um do we want every people want

1:27:35the senior center people want you know

1:27:37recreation fields they want you know um

1:27:39etc etc we want things that better the

1:27:41community we need to balance that. So

1:27:44when we when we do this all this

1:27:46research when we look at the in and work

1:27:48not just our board but other boards

1:27:51sure the decisions made based on those

1:27:53kind of factors um you know not we can't

1:27:58have it because we don't like them or

1:27:59anything like that it's it's a well

1:28:02thought out uh potentially a committee

1:28:04is formed and and decisions are kind of

1:28:07made and then of course it goes to the

1:28:09town for a vote.

1:28:10So again it would go to a town meeting

1:28:11which would need a two-thirds vote to to

1:28:13approve. So the town would have to

1:28:14approve any regulations that we came up

1:28:17with.

1:28:17Okay. So that was my question. Thank

1:28:19you. Thank you. Appreciate it.

1:28:21You know, just I'll say that generally

1:28:23speaking, the state doesn't like when

1:28:26things are completely banned outright,

1:28:28but they give you a lot of flexibility

1:28:30in regulation. Like u I think adult

1:28:32entertainment is a good one. Most towns

1:28:34will usually put like something an

1:28:36overlay district and say outskirts of

1:28:38town where nobody's going to build one.

1:28:41go ahead and and put it out there and

1:28:43you can do something like that. So, you

1:28:45know, obviously nowhere in our village

1:28:46center will we ever want to see one, but

1:28:48outskirts, something like that. Very

1:28:50stringent regulations, has to be

1:28:52screened, can't be over a certain size,

1:28:54things like that where you can create

1:28:56where you can create a data center that

1:28:58might be uneconomical for a data center,

1:29:00but if somebody wanted to come in and do

1:29:02it, hey, we don't create on like a

1:29:05twoacre block.

1:29:07It is too bad for you. Yeah.

1:29:10And all sorts of other things which they

1:29:12currently probably aren't able to do.

1:29:14And so that might make us less desirable

1:29:16to

1:29:19for a while. And we had lawsuits for a

1:29:21short time.

1:29:22Um at town meeting it's happened where

1:29:24the

1:29:26attendees changed something that the

1:29:28board wrote voted on it.

1:29:30Yep.

1:29:30And then that got passed.

1:29:32Okay.

1:29:33So you could be at all the meetings and

1:29:35still disagree with something. And it

1:29:36happened to our solar where we were I

1:29:38think planning board was at 40 and

1:29:41residents got up and made it 30

1:29:44because they amended it at the time

1:29:46at the meeting. Amended it, handed it to

1:29:47him in writing and they changed it and

1:29:49Okay.

1:29:50And then the government changed it

1:29:51and and at the end of the day it really

1:29:53doesn't matter because the the we were

1:29:55overrode by the state and they said we

1:29:58cannot get if if

1:30:00the state wants it we we deal with it.

1:30:02So

1:30:03can't limit them anymore.

1:30:04Right. Yeah. the door.

1:30:06What would be your opinions on how to

1:30:09limit them? You have any good ideas

1:30:12on how to limit them?

1:30:13Yeah. Or prevent them?

1:30:17You know, it's I think it's

1:30:19[clears throat]

1:30:21very alarming to see what's happening

1:30:23over the country. I mean, there are some

1:30:25areas of this country, Ohio,

1:30:29that are covered with them.

1:30:32It is very alarming and and it's it's

1:30:35very um I think from an environmental

1:30:38standpoint especially, you know, I live

1:30:41on a property that has a well. I live on

1:30:44Prindle Pond.

1:30:46Um so I worry about the decontamination

1:30:51and and just whatever is happening from

1:30:53these data centers. It's sort of this

1:30:57technology is just happening so fast.

1:30:58Maybe I'm just old, but I'm just like,

1:31:00what is this and what are we doing and

1:31:03why are we doing it?

1:31:04And I just saw a recent um you know,

1:31:07congressional hearing where um people

1:31:10that understand about AI and how AI

1:31:13works that have been using this AI

1:31:16because AI has been around for many many

1:31:18years. They don't understand what the

1:31:20data centers are for

1:31:23because they have been able to use AI

1:31:26without data centers and been able to

1:31:29process massive amounts of of

1:31:31information. So I just think this

1:31:34moratorum is is a great idea not only

1:31:37because it gives you the time to sort of

1:31:40educate yourself but it also gives us a

1:31:43little bit of time to watch what's

1:31:45happening in the in the other parts of

1:31:47the country right because as the more

1:31:50and more of the these centers are built

1:31:53the large centers we're going to see

1:31:56more of really the truth of what is

1:31:59happening in Massachusetts we're just

1:32:02not a big state, you know,

1:32:04you want me to cut this all off only. We

1:32:06have our um we have our housing plan to

1:32:09discuss.

1:32:10Yes, of course. I just want to make sure

1:32:12that

1:32:12No, 100%. I support everything that

1:32:15you're doing. Thank you for this, Dylan.

1:32:17Thank you. I really appreciate that.

1:32:19So, and thank you for the question.

1:32:22In any time, um meetings are always

1:32:24open, but you can email any of us and

1:32:28you know, sometimes people learn about

1:32:30Yeah. new. I'll be following up.

1:32:32Absolutely.

1:32:32You can be on our AI

1:32:35[laughter]

1:32:37growing up.

1:32:38You want to stay and hang out with us,

1:32:40but we can hang out. [laughter]

1:32:45Thank you.

1:32:47Yeah, you too.

1:32:48You sure?

1:32:48Yep. Thank you.

1:32:49Thanks.

1:32:56You wanted a hard hard chair like

1:32:58[laughter]

1:33:00hard.

1:33:02Well, thanks for having us back. Um,

1:33:05Emily Globbitz, Emily Tibo from Central

1:33:07Mass Regional Planning Commission. Um,

1:33:10last time we were here, we um had

1:33:11presented an initial draft version of

1:33:13the housing production plan, which is a

1:33:15five-year uh state approved plan for um

1:33:18guiding kind of policy and decision

1:33:20making on all things housing for the the

1:33:23community. Um we've been working on it

1:33:25since last year um with a nice committee

1:33:28um and the town administrator as well um

1:33:30and the former town planner um uh before

1:33:34dealing with it and um yeah so uh we

1:33:39received your comments. We have

1:33:41incorporated them into the plan um uh

1:33:44sent out a version with the track

1:33:46changes on so you could see exactly what

1:33:47was changed from the previous plan. So,

1:33:49we just wanted to get feedback on if we

1:33:51kind of met your expectations for the

1:33:53changes. If there's anything else you

1:33:54wanted to bring up and discuss tonight

1:33:56while we're here, um ultimately, um we

1:33:59are looking for a vote of approval for

1:34:02the plan. Then we have to go to the

1:34:03select board and get their vote, um of

1:34:05approval, too, and present to them. And

1:34:08then, um it will be sent to the

1:34:11executive office of housing livable

1:34:13communities um for their staff to review

1:34:16the plan. um they have about a month or

1:34:18so to review it and get any feedback

1:34:19back um to us and um if everything looks

1:34:24good to them then it's signed off for um

1:34:26a 5year period. So um

1:34:29I appreciate your patience with my many

1:34:31comments and

1:34:32No, it's okay. I appreciate the

1:34:33comments. Absolutely.

1:34:35Somebody read it. No, I'm just

1:34:37How many of the towns in the area have

1:34:39already done one or have a plan on file?

1:34:41Do you know?

1:34:41Oh, good question. Um

1:34:44we work um with 40 communities. So out

1:34:47of those I would say at least you know

1:34:49maybe 12 or so between 12 15. Um we've

1:34:53done a lot of them. Um other towns have

1:34:55just kind of done them on their own. Um

1:34:57some communities uh are they're very

1:34:59diligent about updating it every 5 years

1:35:01just to make sure um they have kind of a

1:35:04a up-to-date policy in place. Um but

1:35:07yeah, we're we're encouraging our a lot

1:35:09of communities to

1:35:09Okay. And those metrics that are in the

1:35:12plan, if we don't meet those metrics, is

1:35:14there penalties for that or is it just

1:35:17something we update those metrics next

1:35:18time and say, "Hey, we'll try to do X."

1:35:21Do you mean the um like the affordable

1:35:22housing goals? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um

1:35:26until the community has met its 10%

1:35:28threshold, um it is vulnerable to um

1:35:30comprehensive permits um sought by

1:35:33developers. Um but you are it this does

1:35:35provide you a a way to um uh achieve

1:35:39like a safe harbor is what they're

1:35:41calling it for like a year or two years.

1:35:43Um if in the most recent year you have

1:35:46um developed a half% of the um total

1:35:50year round housing units and that half

1:35:53percent is affordable units.

1:35:55We need one. We added

1:36:00[laughter]

1:36:01it.

1:36:02We can have that int.

1:36:06That's amazing. We had one whenever I

1:36:08were just joking in the developer. No,

1:36:11I don't think we're joking. I was

1:36:12serious

1:36:14and they added one. I mean, it was only

1:36:16one, but for for a size one is

1:36:18it was 20% of the apartments.

1:36:21That's what I look at. 20% of the

1:36:22apartments. Um, so if if what was going

1:36:26with this question? Um, it's difficult

1:36:29to

1:36:30get somebody to designate it as

1:36:32affordable. Now, we have apartments in

1:36:34town that are affordable and within that

1:36:36rent range, but unless it's designated

1:36:39as affordable, it doesn't count.

1:36:41How do we get those units that are

1:36:43already in, you know, in in in service

1:36:46in town that

1:36:47that's a good question.

1:36:48Are at an affordable price for the

1:36:50community. make them

1:36:52to be counted count counted within those

1:36:54numbers,

1:36:55right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, because

1:36:56because the for it to count on the state

1:36:58subsidized housing inventory, it has to

1:37:00have a deed restriction saying

1:37:03that um households are not earning more

1:37:05than 80% of the area median income. So,

1:37:07I mean, there are ways I I can look up

1:37:10um if there's any communities who have

1:37:12maybe created some kind of program for

1:37:15for incentivizing landlords um because

1:37:17ultimately it's the landlords, they

1:37:18might be kind of losing out on that

1:37:20income. Yep. um sell later, right? Lead

1:37:24restriction would be hard. It would just

1:37:25be hard to I mean

1:37:27that that resale especially for small I

1:37:29mean I guess if you had um you know 30

1:37:32or 50 units that's a different sort of a

1:37:34story but it's hard when you have

1:37:36somebody renting their apartment over

1:37:39their garage.

1:37:40So without building large um multif

1:37:43family

1:37:45affordable buildings it's tough for any

1:37:48town to get to that number.

1:37:49It is. It is. How many are there? I

1:37:52thought I thought I read there was like

1:37:53six towns that actually like cities that

1:37:57hit that mark.

1:37:58Yeah, in our region um like the 40 towns

1:38:01surrounding Worcester, I think we have I

1:38:03think it's right that it's about five

1:38:04maybe six that have actually met that

1:38:07threshold.

1:38:07There are some towns too. It's not just

1:38:09cities but

1:38:10other

1:38:12towns.

1:38:13Um Berlin.

1:38:14Berlin has made it.

1:38:15Wow. trying to remember a lot of like

1:38:18kind of the burrows like 495 corridor um

1:38:22towns have met it um

1:38:23put like you know where they're where

1:38:25they're contemplating the senior center

1:38:26up there right um instead of doing a $14

1:38:29million senior center why don't we do a

1:38:32a 30 unit uh

1:38:36senior senior um senior living

1:38:38senior living facility

1:38:40you chief

1:38:42uh just some bag of napkin calculations

1:38:45I think If you're restricting because

1:38:47it's the median income in Charleton is

1:38:50$117,000

1:38:51annually. You have to be at 80% AMI and

1:38:55it's oneird of 80%

1:38:58housing authority could like and we're

1:39:00already saying so if you deed restricted

1:39:02at $230,000

1:39:06uh of rent for somebody making 80% then

1:39:08your capital A affordable. Uh but I

1:39:11think yeah we have a lot more lowercase

1:39:13A affordable in Charlton. I uh can't say

1:39:16I've seen anything

1:39:17uh even that high.

1:39:19It's the deed restriction that goes

1:39:20along with it. You're you're restricting

1:39:22the uh

1:39:23and that's what counts, right?

1:39:24And if they came in with a 40b like 20%

1:39:27would need to be affordable for so you

1:39:29could build a 40, you know, uh apartment

1:39:32building, 40un apartment building, and

1:39:34eight of them would would need to be

1:39:37deed restricted. The rest of them are

1:39:39all

1:39:39luckily if they are built under 4V all

1:39:42of those would count towards your SHI

1:39:44percentage even though

1:39:45Oh really? Oh even though only eight of

1:39:47them are

1:39:47even though eight of them are only

1:39:48affordable in terms of you getting to

1:39:50that 10%. It's a weird if it was built

1:39:53under 40B.

1:39:54So there so there we go. That's that

1:39:56that $14 million senior center thing

1:39:59that they're propo proposing right

1:40:00there. It's perfect location right

1:40:02across from the overlook and everything.

1:40:04I think maybe that deserves a motion on

1:40:06the floor. Yeah.

1:40:08Yeah. [laughter]

1:40:10All right. We're just spitballing here

1:40:12trying to get So

1:40:14I had a question that the little left

1:40:16field. I'm a big proponent of not

1:40:18reinventing wheels and I'm wondering how

1:40:20did Berlin do it? Do you ladies have any

1:40:22idea?

1:40:23They had a couple big projects come in.

1:40:25Yeah. Which I mean it kind of worked for

1:40:27them because they're they're primarily a

1:40:29you know farming community. a lot of

1:40:31like smaller homes and stuff, but um

1:40:33they just had a couple big projects um

1:40:35in one part of town and um they I mean

1:40:39their population also is so low so that

1:40:41it was easy. Yeah. The percentage was it

1:40:44was easy for them to kind of get up.

1:40:46They're at like 17% affordability now.

1:40:49Wow.

1:40:51Most of those are large buildings along

1:40:53Salman Pond area that is the medium

1:40:58price of a home in

1:40:59Oh, good. I mean, of probably at least

1:41:02half a million. [laughter]

1:41:03I was going to say cuz there's a lot of

1:41:05There's a lot of big houses.

1:41:06A lot of those farms that used to be

1:41:09found are now gentleman farms that are

1:41:11uh they have free pools, you know.

1:41:14[laughter]

1:41:15Um I also Berlin also just to use them

1:41:18as an example, they've also been working

1:41:19on other ways to make the community kind

1:41:21of more affordable, not just focusing on

1:41:23the SHI 10%. They've already achieved

1:41:25that, but um I worked with them on

1:41:27creating like a down payment assistance

1:41:28program. um to to get lower income

1:41:31families um who otherwise wouldn't be

1:41:33able to afford like the down payment for

1:41:35a house but could otherwise um afford

1:41:38like the mortgage and everything um just

1:41:40give them kind of that starting point to

1:41:42to purchase a house.

1:41:43I wonder how they get their revenue to

1:41:44be able to do things like that.

1:41:45They do a community

1:41:48preservation. Y

1:41:50I'm not sure we could get Charlton to do

1:41:52that. They don't pay any more money than

1:41:54I thought.

1:41:55Yeah. Yeah. That's a longterm maybe go

1:41:59[laughter]

1:41:59plan.

1:42:00Um, so I I I appreciate all the changes.

1:42:04Um, does anybody else have any

1:42:06questions? I would be happy with

1:42:07Nice work. Thanks for redlining it to

1:42:08make it easy. Yeah.

1:42:11Um,

1:42:12well, I can make a motion that we uh

1:42:14adopt and approve the housing plan that

1:42:17was drawn up from DRC.

1:42:21Make that motion.

1:42:22I second.

1:42:23All in favor?

1:42:23I I There you go.

1:42:25Thank you for your work on this. Thank

1:42:27you. Yeah, we'll be in touch. Um, I'll

1:42:28send out an email um once it all the

1:42:31steps are

1:42:33I guess I can use the red line, Jack,

1:42:34just because it's going to be useful for

1:42:36the master plan um committee to

1:42:39reference, but I think that um maybe VHB

1:42:44will reach out to you guys. I don't know

1:42:46if you can

1:42:47VHB actually has reached out to me.

1:42:49Yeah, I'm meeting with them. I think

1:42:51there's a focus group on housing and

1:42:52land use next week. So, I'll be

1:42:54participating in that and yeah, talk

1:42:56about the

1:42:58Thank you so much for your back.

1:43:02Sorry to keep you so late.

1:43:03Oh, no worries.

1:43:09[clears throat]

1:43:12Did you win?

1:43:13No.

1:43:14No.

1:43:14That's why.

1:43:16[laughter]

1:43:17Did you play Steph?

1:43:18Was it close?

1:43:19She was on the next first game. Was

1:43:23not the second.

1:43:24Oh, how high she is.

1:43:27Cheers.

1:43:28Leave it right here.

1:43:30All right.

1:43:33I feel like he he loves leaving his

1:43:34phone here. So, could be He's done it

1:43:37before.

1:43:37Yes, Tiffany was on that.

1:43:39I think it is.

1:43:42I can't text him and tell his phone. So,

1:43:45maybe he's got a work phone.

1:43:47Call 911.

1:43:49[laughter]

1:43:53Dispatch.

1:43:55I used to have dispatch phone number,

1:43:58right?

1:43:58So you could bypass.

1:43:59Yeah. Tell me if that ring.

1:44:01He's had a rough week.

1:44:03It's ringing.

1:44:04Wow.

1:44:05Yeah. Yeah, it's his.

1:44:07Yeah.

1:44:07So these are the

1:44:10Okay. Minutes that we're doing now.

1:44:22All right.

1:44:24June, September, September

1:44:29all the way back to June.

1:44:43Excuse me.

1:44:49Was

1:44:51[cough]

1:44:52[clears throat]

1:45:06Gothier here in June also or was is that

1:45:10date

1:45:11not correct?

1:45:13Um just for discussion.

1:45:17He came in for an interview.

1:45:18Okay. Okay. So, there wasn't much

1:45:20information.

1:45:21Okay. Thank you.

1:46:06We went to June already.

1:46:08June. Yeah. Make a motion to accept the

1:46:11uh agenda and minutes from June 3rd,

1:46:152026.

1:46:18Second motion.

1:46:20All um all in favor?

1:46:22I

1:46:23I

1:46:24I

1:46:29for September.

1:46:31Sure.

1:46:32I move that we accept the minutes for

1:46:35the September 2nd, 2026.

1:46:45Second.

1:46:46All in favor?

1:46:47I

1:47:04This was the I

1:47:35[clears throat]

1:47:56had to put the factory housing in there.

1:48:01[laughter]

1:48:02Did it did

1:48:09so?

1:48:28[clears throat]

1:48:41Is everybody able September 16th?

1:48:46I move that we accept the minutes for

1:48:49the September 16th, 2026

1:48:52meeting.

1:48:53I'll second. All

1:48:54in favor? I like that state.

1:49:05Um, and we have any of the added stuff?

1:49:08Uh, yes. Just the weekly update. Um,

1:49:14couple things. We have question for you

1:49:16folks which would be um a little bit of

1:49:20the history. My understanding is this

1:49:22room, I think it was Alan Gordon was was

1:49:24very particular about using this room

1:49:26and never using the select board room.

1:49:29Was that an Allen Gordon thing or is

1:49:31that a planning board thing? Cuz I think

1:49:33it may behoove the board with the setup

1:49:36that we have over there in terms of

1:49:38better cameras, better microphones, and

1:49:40I think a little bit more of a better

1:49:42setup for public interaction. I've been

1:49:45doing this for a really long time and

1:49:47having a big table

1:49:49makes a huge difference with because we

1:49:52physically it's nice to see it on the

1:49:54the you know TV and stuff but having a

1:49:56physical plans is is really nice. Um it

1:50:00could be just because I'm old and I I

1:50:02want to feel them but and I've been

1:50:05doing it the same way for you know

1:50:07so they don't have a table big enough

1:50:09for that in this

1:50:11room. Yeah. And we have [clears throat]

1:50:13the thing is in this board, right, in

1:50:14this room, we have anything we want to

1:50:16grab. If we want Jane to go grab

1:50:18something out of the drawer or reference

1:50:19something, we have all the files here.

1:50:21And um the the I I and I know in the

1:50:26town hall they would love to chop this

1:50:30room off and use this as public meeting

1:50:32space. That's like the the talk because

1:50:35don't you know all the gossip happens in

1:50:36the town? Um come on guys, keep up with

1:50:38the gossip. They would love to chop this

1:50:40off, make this a a room so other people

1:50:43could have meetings here.

1:50:44And I mean,

1:50:46yeah, when I worked here, I didn't hear.

1:50:48Yeah. No, it's it's a new talk. It's

1:50:50talking new. So,

1:50:52and you're saying if we if we moved to

1:50:56the select board meetings and we

1:50:58wouldn't need this office. I would I

1:51:00would

1:51:01I mean, we we use a lot of this room.

1:51:03So,

1:51:05and you guys can correct me, but that's

1:51:06not what I mean. I

1:51:08well you you would you guys would know

1:51:09more than I hear.

1:51:11I don't think this room has been a a

1:51:13problem for most hearings that we have.

1:51:16We have moved to the select board

1:51:18or the senior center for really big

1:51:20ones.

1:51:20The senior center we've even had

1:51:22meetings in the elementary or the the

1:51:24the middle school

1:51:25and and just having I mean look like the

1:51:27hearings we like look at the the amount

1:51:30of people. I mean typically if we have

1:51:32one or two people or just the whoever

1:51:34presents

1:51:35[clears throat]

1:51:35um it's it no we

1:51:37I think some of the meetings that you've

1:51:38seen are are

1:51:41full of full full

1:51:42occupancy. What happens if you start

1:51:44giving up space you're not getting it

1:51:46back right and like I I it it is

1:51:50if we want to try to have a few meetings

1:51:52in there and and and and go for it but I

1:51:55I definitely do not want to give up if

1:51:58that's the plan. I definitely don't want

1:52:00to I I think it's great that a a

1:52:02developer can walk in and it's sort of

1:52:04like an open, you know, uh open space.

1:52:07If somebody's having a conversation,

1:52:08someone's listening,

1:52:10right? So, it's not like there's you

1:52:12can't hear and we want a witness for

1:52:14conversations, it's nice to

1:52:16if if it's an agenda where you think

1:52:18there's going to be a lot of people

1:52:20like I know for the solar we went in

1:52:22that room.

1:52:23Yeah. when I was on that committee.

1:52:25I think BG most of those meetings were

1:52:27held downstairs and the final one was

1:52:29held in heritage room.

1:52:31I mean, I think we could do to respect

1:52:35the new incoming planning director.

1:52:37Maybe we could move stuff around a

1:52:40little bit. I think it could use a

1:52:42couple more chairs. I don't know, new

1:52:45chairs, maybe even, you know, line them

1:52:47up. We could put two rows, move it back

1:52:50a little bit, but keep this space. But I

1:52:53mean we could have different chairs up

1:52:57here rows of chairs because I could see

1:53:00two rows of chairs and like more first

1:53:03of all we need new posters of like the

1:53:06water system in town would be nice and

1:53:07sort of like couple of room like flipart

1:53:10whiteboard

1:53:11keep in mind where the where the TV is

1:53:13and stuff and and

1:53:15we want to be able to to see it

1:53:18right but if our if we were right there

1:53:20we could still do rows Yeah. I don't if

1:53:23we want to move this around, I don't

1:53:24have a problem with this. I just

1:53:26definitely don't want to give up. I

1:53:28don't want a wall here because that's I

1:53:30don't want a wall here and and and now

1:53:33there's offices and and this is

1:53:36not our space anymore. That's what I'm

1:53:38saying. I I I

1:53:40I agree. I just Yeah, maybe we could

1:53:42just I don't maybe push the divider back

1:53:45a foot and move it and put two rows of

1:53:48seats and

1:53:49we need a whiteboard, a flip chart. I

1:53:51think it worked out good when when the

1:53:53tables were pushed up closer to to that

1:53:55area. They have rows seats here and it

1:53:59worked out well.

1:53:59They were actually like three rows.

1:54:01Yeah, I think I think the rows are rows

1:54:03are fine and and it actually be better

1:54:06for for the public to see the to see the

1:54:09TV.

1:54:09I know if everyone's facing the same

1:54:12way.

1:54:12So, I think that's maybe we could you

1:54:14and Jane can come up with some

1:54:15solutions.

1:54:17Yeah. I don't care what the chairs

1:54:19chairs go as long as we we remain this

1:54:21is our meeting room and we kind of don't

1:54:24kill the open floor plan because of that

1:54:27you said I

1:54:28um

1:54:30when somebody comes in this should

1:54:32always it typically should be somebody

1:54:34overhearing that like a witness whatever

1:54:36I know that sounds but

1:54:38I always worked cuz conservation uses

1:54:42but the select meaning

1:54:46it depends And so yeah, generally most

1:54:48folks will go over there unless

1:54:51somebody's already in there and then

1:54:52they'll come into here. So we had zoning

1:54:54board of appeals. Um

1:54:58yeah, they asked to use the space so

1:54:59they they came in here.

1:55:01Board of Health uses their own space

1:55:03though, aren't they? Right.

1:55:04Yep. Um

1:55:06but yeah, it's it's you know, we're

1:55:08meeting space is limited. We uh we share

1:55:11when we can. Um

1:55:12yeah, we've always been good about

1:55:13sharing. I just don't want to give up

1:55:16our space. We have we are the most

1:55:18important board in the in the building

1:55:20and I want to make sure that we preserve

1:55:22and own our space.

1:55:23Um but yeah

1:55:24the board for the biggest paperwork

1:55:25anyway. I mean there's your answer years

1:55:28ago they wanted to off but

1:55:31it's a new talk and I

1:55:35I'm not going to give up our constant

1:55:37meeting space when we have meetings

1:55:38always available. I I don't want to

1:55:42Yeah.

1:55:42We need we need our space. We have stuff

1:55:45which I mean it does bring my next point

1:55:47which I'm I'm I'm hearing resistance on

1:55:48this one which would be keeping the

1:55:50space but adding a wall here. The idea

1:55:53being uh so that way Jane and I would

1:55:55have actual offices rather than the

1:55:58shared space. It's can be difficult if

1:56:00I'm on a Zoom meeting here and then Jane

1:56:03is on the phone. It will then kind of

1:56:05create that um it can be difficult to be

1:56:09having two conversations at once. It's

1:56:12funny because in our our our new updated

1:56:14office, they designed it all open space

1:56:17now, right?

1:56:18Yeah. I mean, I I for years years of

1:56:21cubicles though where people are are all

1:56:23around you and you know, I think you can

1:56:25eat too open new architecture. The open

1:56:29share tables people on the phone and you

1:56:32can't concentrate on.

1:56:33Yeah, we have we have like

1:56:34Is there something we can do taller

1:56:35then? Like a happy medium.

1:56:37Cube cube zim bigger for both of you.

1:56:42the desk a little bit more going over

1:56:43that side.

1:56:44Jane, do you even want a cube? Don't I

1:56:46mean I mean I

1:56:47Yeah, I'm actually fine. I need to see

1:56:49people coming in.

1:56:51You'd rather see them coming in.

1:56:52I greet people for doing higher.

1:56:56Yeah, I think the idea would be if we

1:56:57put a wall there that there would be

1:56:59glass so it wouldn't just be a a blank

1:57:02wall. Uh, the idea would be a wall, a

1:57:06door, a door that enters in from there,

1:57:07but then a door to Jane's office and a

1:57:10door to my office in here. So that way

1:57:13it would still be

1:57:13Yeah, I think there there's been been a

1:57:16push to

1:57:18windows

1:57:20windows and keeping the public outside

1:57:22of the the actual meeting space or the

1:57:24employee space. I know they've done

1:57:26that.

1:57:26This is like you said, this is

1:57:27different. We're always looking at big

1:57:29plans.

1:57:30Like that's what surprises me. They

1:57:32could they could come out here and keep

1:57:34us here

1:57:35but also provide a barrier from the you

1:57:38know

1:57:40and the idea would be that because again

1:57:42they they would still be separate

1:57:44issues. We could add a wall here and

1:57:47that would allow you know if somebody

1:57:49wanted to meet during the day we could

1:57:51shut our doors and allow for a meeting

1:57:53in here. Then the planning board could

1:57:54still retain this.

1:57:56Just be careful going down that road

1:57:57because

1:57:58once that wall goes up they may take

1:58:00this away from from on the plane board.

1:58:02Yeah, we that's I mean

1:58:04I mean right now we have boards that um

1:58:07like all like each other but when

1:58:09there's a when there is a space war it

1:58:11just

1:58:12and I'm assuming you use this table for

1:58:14for contractors when they come in

1:58:16when people come in we have a seat here

1:58:18it's

1:58:19exactly

1:58:19it's useful to have a big table here

1:58:22for the meeting and and so I'm I'm

1:58:26incentivized to not uh you know lose the

1:58:29space as well Um but the idea being that

1:58:34uh it does limit it for any other type

1:58:38of use for town as well.

1:58:40We don't really care about the rest

1:58:42about the rest of the committees.

1:58:43[snorts] I mean

1:58:43we all get along but I don't care.

1:58:45But you know you know you know what I'm

1:58:46saying though I mean like it's great

1:58:48they can use it when they want but we're

1:58:50not modifying so other people can use

1:58:52our space. I mean

1:58:54really are we going to spend the tax?

1:58:56We're going to spend the residents money

1:58:58to modify. So, so right. Go to the

1:59:01library and use one of their arms. Real

1:59:02I mean

1:59:04just

1:59:05but back to what Dylan would like

1:59:08something quieter. Maybe there's

1:59:10something we can do with a temporary. I

1:59:12know they make cubicles somewhat taller.

1:59:14They do

1:59:15and they do have cutouts for windows. So

1:59:17maybe then we don't have to do anything

1:59:18structural

1:59:20and it could

1:59:21and look at the cost.

1:59:24And maybe we already h you know have

1:59:26maybe there's something in the basement

1:59:28floating around too.

1:59:29What about those glass partition things?

1:59:34Series of those.

1:59:36Well, I guess take it under

1:59:37consideration

1:59:37and look Yeah, look at options. Um yeah,

1:59:39let us I mean I I have no I think I mean

1:59:43they make um they make like these like

1:59:45really tall like real

1:59:47real

1:59:48and nicer.

1:59:49Yeah, wood. We should look at some

1:59:51prices and see what um you know if it's

1:59:54in the budget to do.

1:59:57And there's a lot of companies that have

1:59:58closed the doors. I know when my

2:00:00husband's company needed office

2:00:01furniture and petitions, there's people

2:00:03that

2:00:05sell secondhand that are incredibly

2:00:08nice.

2:00:09Just there's a

2:00:13Yeah. I mean,

2:00:14we'll take we'll think about it. Yeah, I

2:00:15guess something to discuss and and and

2:00:18see like numbers and budget like numbers

2:00:21what it like what it's going to cost.

2:00:22Is this something the town hall would do

2:00:24or is this something where come on, you

2:00:25know, the point budget and like I said,

2:00:27I'm still worried about losing this half

2:00:29of the room once that petition goes up,

2:00:32but J, well, you don't need this

2:00:35anymore.

2:00:36So, it would just be Dylan.

2:00:37So, they could

2:00:42uh it's easier for us to respond to

2:00:45something

2:00:46in a drawing. I think maybe that

2:00:49that was a good way to start the

2:00:50conversation. If you maybe firm

2:00:53something up, drawings and a quote that

2:00:55we can approve.

2:00:56Yeah. Some sort of at least at least

2:00:58some ideas about about cost and what it

2:01:01would look like and and be I I mean, I

2:01:03know I sound like I'm like the big old

2:01:05grump here, but I'm I'm I'm where this

2:01:09space. We're lucky that we have constant

2:01:11space cuz look at our stuff.

2:01:13Yeah.

2:01:13Right. And um it's and being able to

2:01:17grab plans and grab things and having

2:01:20them available because we're are they

2:01:21going to now be moved somewhere. Look at

2:01:23the we could do better with our file

2:01:26cabinets and stuff, but um yeah, maybe

2:01:30upgrade. We still have the room in the

2:01:32basement for files. There was a

2:01:35document.

2:01:36We don't have anything down there, but

2:01:37there is still space. And they're

2:01:39looking for more space. I can tell you

2:01:40that recreation had our plans someplace

2:01:43else and somebody shredded them all.

2:01:45So there's no historical recreation

2:01:46files anywhere. Somebody shredded them

2:01:48all.

2:01:49Yeah. Cuz I probably kept them for seven

2:01:51years and then

2:01:52No, they were. And but some of these

2:01:53were historical. I mean some of these

2:01:55things were stuff that would have helped

2:01:57us now and not pay new consultant. Like

2:02:00you know what I'm saying? Like we just

2:02:01don't have those.

2:02:01Do you know who you need to strangle?

2:02:03We know exactly who's who

2:02:04and do you know why they

2:02:05um because it was easier. So, um, but

2:02:09again, and I'm I'm paranoid because

2:02:12these things, but they do happen. So at

2:02:14being able I mean if if we're going to

2:02:17invest some you know in some um maybe we

2:02:20get better file cabinets and and better

2:02:23options and

2:02:25maybe there can be a file cabinet tall

2:02:28wall here you know like like come up

2:02:30with ideas

2:02:31seats you know

2:02:34and something that matches even Jane's

2:02:36desk for a divider

2:02:38even

2:02:40so it looks uniform

2:02:42and maybe there is an upgrade. I mean,

2:02:44these seats are really cool that they're

2:02:46where they're um they're probably like

2:02:47100 years old. Um these chairs that we

2:02:50have um but maybe it's the upgrade

2:02:54seats.

2:02:55Those are from

2:02:56upstairs in the library, weren't they?

2:02:58In the library.

2:02:59Are they from the library? They're

2:03:00definitely school

2:03:01back when they were back when this was a

2:03:02school probably.

2:03:04We had those at the library too when it

2:03:06was the meetings were up there.

2:03:08Um I do have a question that kind of

2:03:10goes along with that. I read somewhere

2:03:12that said that the the maps you have

2:03:14displayed in your planning offices if

2:03:18they're outdated, somebody could come in

2:03:20and and legally be able to follow it.

2:03:23Really? I'm not Are they updated? I

2:03:25mean,

2:03:26I'm just asking just that one's up to

2:03:28date.

2:03:30That's a good question to to look up

2:03:32though

2:03:32cuz I I just I don't know.

2:03:34Yeah, but they have dates on them.

2:03:36Yeah,

2:03:37that one. Yeah, that would have

2:03:39we've got some hours with CNPRC. I mean,

2:03:41we've got like 20 something hours.

2:03:43Put a disclaimer, like a legal

2:03:45disclaimer on it.

2:03:46Well, we uh we have some

2:03:48Is there anything we need

2:03:50endangered species and wetland

2:03:53protection?

2:03:55We have a solar field.

2:03:56Does water and sewer have one that we

2:03:57can have they can print for us?

2:03:59We can print in the giant printer.

2:04:00Somebody must have

2:04:01can print it for us. Big giant.

2:04:04Oh, yeah.

2:04:04Got a plotter. That would be nice. That

2:04:06would be useful

2:04:06because we we also have endangered

2:04:08species of critical habitat. There's a

2:04:10little bit of going on and then there's

2:04:13some areas and next terror is on it

2:04:18projects on it.

2:04:20But that map is just

2:04:24don't know where it went. [laughter]

2:04:27Really good point.

2:04:28So

2:04:29let's get let's find some find. I'll

2:04:31show it to you. It's funny how

2:04:34new room for new maps

2:04:35might be old. But James, can you follow

2:04:37up on on on like that? Um,

2:04:42critical habitat.

2:04:43The critical habitat.

2:04:44I'll I'll peek through what we have.

2:04:46Yeah.

2:04:46Yes. Because it would be great.

2:04:47Alan never got rid of anything.

2:04:49Okay.

2:04:50So, I will peek through the pile.

2:04:51It'll be great to kind of get

2:04:52I don't know where this came from. Open

2:04:53space, greenways, and trail

2:04:56that probably needs updating.

2:04:58Oh, that's it.

2:04:58Come up with some ideas and show us. a

2:05:01permanent easel for presentations from

2:05:04applicants would be good, you know, just

2:05:07because they're always setting things up

2:05:09and turn.

2:05:10Well, we we have an easel, right?

2:05:13We don't have to spend We don't want to

2:05:14spend We don't want to spend town money

2:05:16if we don't have to. This is why we have

2:05:17the Walmart TV and not the fancy smart

2:05:20one. Remember that you were Yeah,

2:05:22we saved like thousands of dollars on

2:05:24the touchscreen TV. Should we update

2:05:27this one?

2:05:29Probably should. I mean 2002 I mean that

2:05:32was a good year right I'm just like I

2:05:34don't

2:05:36say it's close to

2:05:3825 years ago

2:05:39makes for a good wall

2:05:40wire

2:05:42the the the map I try to get updated is

2:05:45the the zoning map that's I always want

2:05:47to know most importantly cuz what can I

2:05:49do where do you live

2:05:50put in some of the biggest uh employers

2:05:55where are the biggest companies

2:05:56the open space I knew open space map

2:05:58would be good too Um

2:06:00I'm not sure the online

2:06:04um GIS mapping is correct either. I

2:06:07think maybe that that may be something

2:06:08we can have CMPRC doc to update the the

2:06:12online GIS because I don't think the

2:06:14zoning overlays work. There's a lot of

2:06:16things that are not working on that

2:06:20map. Yeah.

2:06:22And the open space that's conservation.

2:06:23We can see if they've got a a map.

2:06:25Yes. So I mean maybe within 24 hours of

2:06:28of time that CM BRC update the GIS is

2:06:33that something they normally do? Isn't

2:06:34that

2:06:35they have all our maps that came from

2:06:38that came from make sure they have the

2:06:40it's just the town data online that's

2:06:43that's uh I because I use that all the

2:06:45time to see what's what's happening

2:06:46around

2:06:47normal responsibility.

2:06:48I think I think it's something that'll

2:06:50be that they've always always done. It's

2:06:53my understanding. Perfect.

2:06:59We'll get some drawings together of of

2:07:01what uh any structural changes might

2:07:04look like. Um so you have something

2:07:07visual in there. And um yeah, I mean

2:07:10something to consider as well just

2:07:13in terms of where we host the meetings.

2:07:15The reason I do recommend the other one

2:07:16is again it's it's the quality of the

2:07:20recordings because here you know the

2:07:22camera behind us.

2:07:23the back of, you know, mine and Bill's

2:07:25head. Um, and it can

2:07:31where we already have the equipment in

2:07:33town, it's it's hard to argue for, you

2:07:35know, kind of a whole separate setup for

2:07:38another room just so we could get better

2:07:40recording in here. So, we go

2:07:42there's there's often a meeting in there

2:07:44on Wednesday nights. So, it's it's

2:07:46somebody else is using that um whether

2:07:49it's Vincom or or somebody else. We

2:07:52could do we could do the you could do

2:07:54like a

2:07:55I think we could set this room up better

2:07:57and we have over here and then have cuz

2:07:59we used to have the camera over here.

2:08:00You remember you got I used camera being

2:08:03here only cuz

2:08:04I don't like have people behind me

2:08:06either.

2:08:06I'm afraid

2:08:08someone

2:08:10used to be like so you could do like

2:08:12[clears throat]

2:08:13be you right there, right? So now

2:08:15there's room to present and then the

2:08:17camera is here and we're all facing you

2:08:21know we're here. Yes.

2:08:22And the the camera's here. And then you

2:08:25have the the residents

2:08:27here. And then the camera can also see

2:08:28the TV from over here.

2:08:30Yeah.

2:08:31My tough part was wide shots. I got to

2:08:33get far enough back to get everybody

2:08:35that's talking.

2:08:36And I can't get an easel over there from

2:08:38this spot. I'm just just throwing out my

2:08:40problem with it.

2:08:40If you're over here,

2:08:41if you project on the TV and you're over

2:08:43this corner,

2:08:45I can still see that. But I if I if the

2:08:47easel's over there and I'm there, that's

2:08:49great. But those times I'm not here and

2:08:51I'm just wide shot under the easel could

2:08:54stay under the TV like in that area and

2:08:56we could be like a a you like this.

2:08:59It'll be a little awkward for us to

2:09:03and then have the audience here so the

2:09:05camera is getting us not the audience.

2:09:08I could feed this to that TV and I can

2:09:11zoom in on the maps and you can see it

2:09:13up there.

2:09:15That sounds good too. I'd rather shoot

2:09:17that than that. I I think changing the

2:09:20the format of this room is probably I I

2:09:22I like the way it used to be 10 years

2:09:24ago when it was over here. I think we

2:09:26did this recently, probably during co

2:09:28time something.

2:09:30We actually had that whole role where

2:09:32people could come up and talk to you.

2:09:34Yep.

2:09:34It was like this wide.

2:09:36Yep.

2:09:36Remember you guys all sat like that?

2:09:39What about an L with a gap in it? So we

2:09:42sit in this L and the audience sits

2:09:45here. I'm I'm pretty sure you should

2:09:46just snap a picture and have AI do do

2:09:49seating suggestions in best format.

2:09:51There we go. I need a whiteboard. Let's

2:09:53come up with a come up with a lighting

2:09:54board.

2:09:56That was years ago. We were like we were

2:09:58going to get [laughter] out of

2:10:00hot tub over there in that corner.

2:10:01I was like, are we actually going to use

2:10:03a whiteboard? We have whiteboards at

2:10:04work and no one ever used school.

2:10:06I think without a whiteboard.

2:10:08Yeah, I've got my whiteboard right there

2:10:10with all my scrollings on there.

2:10:15I'll do my best thinking,

2:10:16but not a smart board. Just

2:10:18whiteboard.

2:10:19Oh, we were talking a smart whiteboard.

2:10:21Yeah, I'm with you.

2:10:22Oh, plain old white boards.

2:10:24I use them at home. Little chalkboard.

2:10:26Smart boards are

2:10:29just

2:10:31you end up using just a really fancy

2:10:32projector anyways. So,

2:10:34it's true. We do have chalkboards.

2:10:36White.

2:10:40Everybody cover your ears.

2:10:42CL.

2:10:45Anything else?

2:10:46Uh, I think that is everything.

2:10:49Okay.

2:10:51Any other business unknown at time of

2:10:53posting? Anything else happening?

2:10:56Folks are all up to speed.

2:10:58Okay.

2:11:00Then I'll make a motion we adjourn.

2:11:02I second a motion. All

2:11:04in favor? I I