2026-09-02 - Planning Board Meeting

0:07So, being six o'clock, I'm going to open the uh the September 2nd, 2026 planning board meeting. Do we have anybody that

0:13wants to for the open forum that wants to make a statement or anything?

0:19Um my name is Jordan. Um I'm from Drew Fox Brands. We're currently operating a manufacturing facility in Holio,

0:26Massachusetts. Um, we are looking at a property at 36 Schoolhouse Road that is for sale in Charleton. Um, we've been

0:35trying to reach out for a few weeks now um to the city of Charleton to get some answers on your zoning bylaws that are

0:42in place. Um, so we're a marijuana facility. We're interested in putting a outdoor cultivation there. Um, so kind of trying to get information on what the

0:50setbacks would be if your city will allow it. Um, what kind of things you would like to put in place as far as odor. um control things like that if you

0:58will allow it. We're looking to put a lot of jobs um will be provided with that probably 40 to 50 employees as to which we're going to be getting from the

1:06area. Um but if we can get kind any kind of information on the zoning is I have it printed out here but it's not very

1:14clear on whether or not outdoor is allowed or not allowed. So on here sometime um it's going to be 36 schoolhouse road.

1:24Is it 30 number six? 30 space 6. Yes. 30 space 6 is the house. We have a couple house.

1:33Yeah. Okay, fair enough.

1:35Um, have you talked to our zoning enforcement officer?

1:38I have not been able to get a hold of him. So, I actually we've emailed a call. Um, I actually flew in from Michigan for this specific [clears throat] meeting um because we've

1:46been unsuccessful and our lawyers have also reached out as well too. Sorry to hear that.

1:54It's okay. Um, we figured this would be at least if we get face to face, maybe we can get some kind of um, clarification.

2:00I'm sure there's some vacations and all these and yeah, that's what I assume potentially too.

2:05The shirt is very quick and honestly he does

2:12communication or whatever. So, don't think that you're just being shoved cuz I promise. Um, let's

2:21I've given them my card as well as my email and my uh cell phone. So, you can reach out to me directly. Um, and I can coordinate this with you as well. Feel

2:30free to give me a call tomorrow and uh we can go from there. Okay. Thank you.

2:33And normal. So, the town hall is closed on Fridays.

2:37So, um if if I don't know how long you're here, but yeah. And so, what normally we we um will do for um for new developers.

2:49We can have a uh a meeting and bring in all of the right um department heads to sort of like have that basic discussion

2:57on what you might need, but the person you truly want to talk to would be zoning a postal officer. He has a lot of answers and a process.

3:05So, I don't know if Kurt is around or he was on a late station. He's back now.

3:10Um she can call him still.

3:12But yeah, yeah, he's starting with me. I can coordinate the discussion with myself uh you folks and Curtis as well. Okay.

3:19Maybe if we get something on the even for a zoom later or something like that.

3:23We can come back into my the owner of our company will actually be in town next week too as well and our other whole facility too and we can come in.

3:31Wonderful. Yeah, we can set something up for next week. Thank you.

3:34The building codes are online as well, right? The E360, whatever that's called.

3:39Yes. Yeah, they're all there, but it sounds like there's discrepancy where it's not great. Yeah, I haven't actually printed.

3:47Yeah.

3:48Yeah, it is actually easier to read them electronically. So, you can kind of search through highlighted actually.

3:54Yeah, it's when you print them out, I think they're even worse. So, um awesome. Anybody else?

4:04So, we have um I do probably have as well.

4:12You're welcome to stay.

4:14Yeah, I might honestly head out. I don't know much about your city.

4:18But it is beautiful. My first time home day this weekend.

4:22Oh, yeah. I did see that on my way. I actually do not have a card on me, but I will text you right now and I do appreciate everything and everyone's time. Thank you. Thank you.

4:30Um, so I have um a notice for of public hearing. Um, in accordance with section

4:3927.1 and 207.2, The child and zoning dial by the child and play board will hold a public hearing on Wednesday, August 12, 2026 at 6:30 p.m.

4:506:00 p.m. in the planning board office in the George scenic country building 37 Main Street Chocansky

4:59157 Drive 7 for the site plan approvals constructing 7,454

5:06square foot commercial building. This property is located at 123 road child and math assessment 26 P parcel 16 in

5:16community business Kevin Quinn engineering here on behalf of the applicant and owner before I get

5:25started can I ask about the composition of the board right now as far as membership we have members that are out

5:33um what we don't want to do is have a continued meeting and have members be unable to vote at a at a future meeting to close the hearing.

5:45So they will any member who's absent so long as they only miss one hearing then they are able to get um

5:52if the rule then they'll be able to Very good. Okay.

5:57And um you know our board member especially known as very seasoned so he would be

6:04able to video. Just want to make sure it's not not going where we shouldn't go. Um we were before the board August

6:1212th. Um at that time we know we had received comments from Graves Engineering. We had a couple of questions about that. Um Mike's been

6:20away. We met with Mike. Um Chris Keenan of my office and Dylan met with Mike on Monday. He was back from vacation. Um

6:27Mike had commented that he feels that our means of recharging storm water was in conflict with the Massachusetts storm

6:34water management policy. Um you read the policy over carefully and very closely and he's not wrong. The a literal

6:42reading specific reading of that um basically says any storm water collected on paved surface has to be subject to

6:50storm water treatment and recharge in accordance with the standard. Um what we feel is that that's not meant to be a restrictive statement. That's the that's

6:58a statement of how it's done. Um it doesn't contemplate having recharge from another source.

7:08And why we feel this important is that um storm water is collected on a paved surface picks up particulates, hydrocarbons, salts and other stuff.

7:19Storm water treatment removes 80% of that. So that means 20% of these things go in there. 100% of salt goes into the

7:28ground groundwater is recharged in the groundwater table. We've proposed a system that collects runoff above the

7:37the development of the site and we collect off runoff from our site that's not paved surfaces.

7:45So the recharge we put in has zero hydrocarbons, zero salts, and is

7:51presumably very clean. Um it's not that this is prohibited under storm water management. It's that it's not contemplated.

8:01We feel um it's in the community's interest to at least consider that. Um, we talked to Mike a little bit about

8:08this to say, would you would you be able to give a statement to the board that you defer to the board? Um, Mike feels

8:15that he defers to the board on every question. The board always has the opportunity to to accept his advice and do something different. So, we're asking

8:24the board tonight to look at this and give us direction as to whether that's something the board could accept. Um, it's not a variance. It's not a waiver.

8:34It's simply we're we've provided a plan that complies with the storm water standards in a different way and our

8:41interpretation is that it's that it's in accordance with storm water standards.

8:46So what our plan now is we have a few nuts and bolts we have to address our plans including this. So what we'd like

8:55to do is res we'd like to resubmit the plan in a form that's acceptable to the board and hopefully at the next meeting have no no remaining unresolved issues.

9:05So I I guess I would ask the board tonight to give us direction on that.

9:10Come back to that in a minute. Um another question we have for the board pertains to the driveway. Mike correctly

9:18noted that the proposed driveway is less than has less than 50 foot separation from the adjoin from the driveway on the

9:25property next door. The standard says 50 ft. It's 29 ft of separation. Um it turns out that there was a driveway

9:34pre-existing on that site and that this is a pre-existing non-conformance.

9:40Um DOT reconstructed the the U entrance, the curb cut and the and the

9:46driveway ramp in there. Um and they followed along with the the the the

9:54original driveway. We have pictures here. This is pictures from 2005 and from 2007

10:02that show the driveway. You can see McCclure Engineering is our abing property on the left. That driveway right there is the original driveway.

10:10And that's paved and that's approved by DOT.

10:12Well, DOT reconstructed when they reconstructed Route 20, they rebuilt the curb cut and they put an apron into the site where that driveway was located.

10:21Apparently, at some time in the past, there was a farm stand here and there was a driveway that went up up into the site.

10:28So, what we're saying is this was a pre-existing non-conformance. Um, we don't I don't think relief is necessary

10:35because put a drivewood where one previously existed.

10:39Our bylaws say one thing and then not cuz that looks from there to there looks more than 50 ft. Are you saying the property?

10:48Yeah, it's actually 29.

10:50Yeah. And our the proposed driveway does not encroach any closer than the existing driveway at that time. It's not

10:58we're not any it is no closer than that that driver was was shown at that time.

11:05And I I think I mentioned it in in the last meeting when I was here that um our plan is kind of based around that

11:13driveway entrance. If we have to relocate it to comply with that 50oot separation, it would be very disruptive to the site plan.

11:22And the sight line is pretty straight there. in New Orleans. Yes, sir.

11:29Have we ever gotten a a letter maybe from Chris Mccclure saying does that at the meeting?

11:37So, it doesn't hurt. Okay.

11:41It's just a just again it's our you know we say that it would have

11:48to be variance but it's easier to deal with our variances than

11:55you know I'm less concerned about the

12:00driveway than I am with the storm water I will say this um this is not a um

12:11adversarial or we're presenting this to the board. Oh, yeah.

12:14If the board says, you know what, yeah, we're going to stick with Graves advice.

12:18We we'll make we'll revise our plan, we can certainly comply with the plan. We think it's in the interest of the community because we're recharging water. That would be very very clean.

12:28Right. I And I have um I just I'm I'm not an engineer, so that's I don't

12:36it could be even better than what saying um that's my that's my question

12:44with with that I I just don't know I I can't it's hard it's hard for me to make a call for say oh yeah um I don't know

12:52Cleveland if this is something that we if I can I'll add on so in the meeting

13:00with with Graves it looks like really looking at it and seeing what the issues were it sounds like [clears throat]

13:08broadly speaking, if I understood Mike on this, that he could see the general idea of this going forward. He had some

13:15specific tweaks that he would like to see and my understanding was that these are things that can be worked out and it

13:22wouldn't require an entire reviewing of the uh the approach you guys have taken to storm water was my understanding of what Mike was saying.

13:32So, kind of where it's at now is sounds like you folks are going to do the uh changes that Mike was requesting and

13:40Mike could look at those and then I think we could end up here in two weeks where Mike saying, "Yeah, I think everything looks good." Might be a little unconventional, but it does.

13:49I think I think key to that would be the board endorsing our approach.

13:54Yeah. Um and and I think it's it's it's a question that Mike would look to the board to say, "Yeah, we're going to we're going to accept what what corn is

14:02proposing." And and certainly if he if Mike has um nuts and bolts concerns, we can certainly do.

14:09That's what I I mean, if if if he's saying that the con this is not standard [clears throat] what they're teaching in the schools, right? But like but the

14:17concept makes sense and that's and I mean to be frankly I I've we've never had an opportunity on a site to do this type of design and we've never seen it.

14:27Um I think it's we we'd like to think it's kind of innovative but I think I mean if we can think out of the box and and and have it we don't

14:35need to you know I think if the board is concerned about I don't think the board is is accepting it cart blanch by accepting our

14:44approach. We can we still should go back to to Mike and have him review it under the context of yeah this concept is is acceptable to the board.

14:53How does the rest of the board available?

14:54Yeah the other way through through the chair I agree it's innovative for sure. I think the other thing that

15:02our engineer um pointed to after his review is how does mass EP weigh in on

15:08this? And so I mean that would give us a higher level of comfort I think if we could get

15:15even even their um ruling or reading of uh you know storm

15:23water management and I think they're going to go back to well it needs to be 65% of the you know the paved area going

15:31into well volutrically we definitely meet that standard. We met we met the 65% all day long. Yeah. The question is the source of water and the language in that

15:41in the the uh not the volume but from the source I think that's the spirit of of

15:48the law if I would read it that would be spirit it's got to be from impervious of your 65% is that's where

15:56we come up with the volume I mean whatever the board's comfortable is it is that could you satisfy that uh

16:05with a design change, you know, we we can we we've figured out a way to to re rework our design and comply to the letter. Okay.

16:14So, if the board isn't comfortable with this, you know, we're fine. We can make it work. If and if that being the case, that would

16:22be my recommendation to, you know, as a board member just to satisfy that. I think the spirit of the law is is pretty

16:29clear. Um, I understand the calculation then going into a recharge is a little

16:36bit different. Um, I'm certain the client appreciated that innovation.

16:44Good idea. Okay.

16:46Yep. I Yep. cut right on.

16:49What is the rest of the rest of I mean that was one of my concerns too is just the way that calculations

16:57and I'm comfortable if my Mike says work with him and and he feels

17:05um you know he feels I guess about the push like it's going to it's a different way of doing it but it still will satisfy

17:13you know do what it needs to do was the rest of the um the concerns on the graves acknowledge now or is it just

17:22is that the only thing we we need to resubmit plans we have everything okay um okay under with the exception of the the

17:30separation of the drivers. That's another separate question.

17:33So, how does everybody feel about the drivers? That's the easy one. Like it's the mascot put it that way. They feel they're good with the sight line. We're

17:42not talking. There's no safety issues because the sight line is clear.

17:46Um I mean it's really the issue is we have 50 ft for safety purposes, but there if everybody's comfortable, we won't have to go back and redesign it.

17:57I'm fine with that.

17:59the road there too. So that's I feel the I like the spirit of the storm water management.

18:06Okay, let's just talk about the just the driveway first. The driveway first. Do you feel comfortable?

18:09Well, if if the um I mean we don't know I don't know what the um the rules about the driveways

18:17are partly safety and partly probably environmental have to do with some of the storm water are by launch phase 50 but I would say

18:24mostly for for safety purposes. So because of sight line um

18:29snow and snow removal and um and

18:36this the state put kind of created that 30 30 foot on their own on their with their own

18:44designing um and the sight line that's on a piece you know in both directions is pretty solid

18:52one direction but um are we do we need them to go back and be redesigned this with the 50 or we good

18:59with with accepting the fact that they want they'll want to waiver particular strapple yeah just kind of just in general

19:08because they either know whether they should go back and redesign it the fact that it's there um a sign that DOT endorsed it

19:14they certainly had the opportunity to say they can maybe that can be

19:23so it's us because it's now it's about our bylaw like about like our zoning like our bylaw did we do we give them a

19:30waiver for the 50 ft and that question is my feeling is if it's the spirit and

19:37it's it the boxes all have to be checked a little bit more carefully during something that's a little bit done a little bit differently but um I mean

19:44that's one of the reasons we're here is to let go rather than so like like Lori said it's it's it's a

19:53divided highway now so all cars going the same direction because you're not going to have, you know, one car going this way, another car going that way.

20:00And I think that was probably intention. So that it's an easy one. And this one's a little harder.

20:09[clears throat]

20:11No, sorry. You can go. Well, as far as a storm water, I think it's just really the same idea to me is that an innovative idea.

20:19you need to step back and um maybe look at it from a little bit of a further away perspective because it's new and

20:28see how it's going to interact with the rest of the plan. But that if that meets um the boxes are all checked then I

20:36think it's a good Was the lighting discussed? Talking about lighting discussed we we have a um a phototric plan. Okay.

20:44And it does show that we have um 110 foot candle at the perimeter. Okay.

20:49We haven't the lights been specified and all lights reflection,

20:56you know. But what we plan to do is is just bring one package before the board all everything. But I'd like to come to your next meeting and be able to say

21:04that all the boxes are checked rather than rather than coming back in drips and Okay. Okay. That sounds good.

21:11Anything else just a storm water do we have if we want to

21:18I'm good with it if you want I'm sorry I'm not good with it. You you recommend you you mentioned that you

21:26could satisfy the this letter of the storm water management with the improvement.

21:32So to redesign my correctly more clearly to Yes, please redesign and capture the

21:39practice of your Does mascot um

21:48look at the storm in any way for any reason?

21:52The I don't know because of not that I'm aware of but I can look into that.

21:59They do they there are there has been in the past per persons at the D in in was that they were storm

22:09water that's what they did I don't know that the person that was there at one time I don't know D or DOT

22:17D for the for the storm water storm water the question was does DOT care I I I would say this if if we if we needed

22:25to get um a sign off from the D.

22:30I I just don't think I could promise that happen. I just don't think it's only because I I don't They typically

22:38don't have guys walking in off the street saying, "Can you look at my plan and tell me if if it's a great idea to sign off on anything?" Yeah. It's not really there's nobody who's assigned that task.

22:49So, I mean, you I'm always like, "Let's do everything exactly by the book and and we're going to risk and not set any

22:56new presidents, but I don't want to do just because they haven't

23:02done anything when when sometimes thinking out the box and their creativity is actually a a positive

23:10thing. I'd rather um see what I mean if if Mike sat you down and said

23:17don't don't do this but he didn't have that energy right. He he sounded like he was open to it. I I I think it's still

23:26the approach isn't dead in the water is really what I was getting from Mike that you can with this approach get where they're going, but we need to see what

23:34those plans are. And then that's where Mike would make that determination because we can still come back with a redesign with this approach where Mike's

23:42looking at it and saying, "No, this still doesn't meet the standards and we just can't get there." We haven't gotten there. Mike's open to this. I think that

23:52His opinion is that it can get there, but you know, we're at that point where we need to see the plan. So, it sounds like the question we're hearing here

23:58from the applicant is is the board okay with this approach? And I think Mike needs that to the board. I think

24:06and I think the board I'm hearing that the board's okay with this approach, then if Mike thinks it can get where it needs to go, am I correct in that

24:14assessment? You all would want to see an approval from Mike saying, "Yes, [clears throat] I believe this meets the standards. It needs to meet traditional method."

24:21Yeah. So yeah, I think as long as what you guys submit when Mike reviews it, as long as it gets to the standards that

24:28he's trying to get to that this could get the the sign off from the board. I don't think the board's going to object to it. Mike saying yes, this meets the standards.

24:35I'm I'm not sure the board I'm not sure we're all speaking the same language.

24:39See what I think Mike needs to have the board say, yeah, we're we'll we accept

24:46Quinn's interpretation. I had one board member saying, "No, we want to stick with the letter of the law." And and that's fine. If the board feels, you

24:55know, you want to stick with the letter of the law, that's fine. Mike needs a green light. Go for saying, "I don't care how you get there, but there's a place that we need to get

25:02for the for an approval, right? So there there are there there are certain um there's a certain place, a certain calculation that he needs and I don't

25:10care how we get to that as long as we get to the point where we're at the we're at that. Does that make sense?" It does, but the only thing is Mike's fundamental objection it his objection

25:19is fundamental that the way we're we we're obtaining recharge water is in conflict with the subdivision with the storm water management policy.

25:29So, we're saying that we think it has, you know, it's in the community's interest and our interpretation of the

25:37policy does not believe, we don't believe that's in hard, but he would need to hear from the board to say, "Yeah,

25:43we accept Quinn's interpretation and you can go forward." He would still he should still look at, like I say, we know we designed this the volumetrically

25:52we meet the quantity of of recharge required under the the um the policy.

25:59Um, but Mike would probably want to confirm that. But the fundamental plan that we have is what Mike's objecting to.

26:12I I I'm going with our town engineer on that. If he doesn't think it's acceptable at this point, then we need

26:18to come back and satisfy my I want Mike. I don't want it. So, how will we get there?

26:25Yep. Let's see how we get there from that point.

26:35Can I request to continue? How long do you do? Next meeting.

26:44I'll make a motion to um continue Mansky 1.3 West Road to September 16th.

26:53Second. All in favor? Hi. Thank you.

27:00You got to call Kevin Mr. Quinn thing to you, right?

27:10We have the hearing from from Hayden Enterprises on Worcester Road for the proposed uh gas station community.

27:49Good evening, Madam Chair, members of the board. My name is Al Chua. I'm a consulting engineer with offices in Massachusetts and I represent the

27:58applicant on this application. As you know, this is I think I believe this is our third time here. And uh just to walk

28:06you through a little bit what expired from the last meeting. So, uh at first we submitted our first initial submissions. This is for the proposed

28:14gas station at the intersection of Worcester Road and Old Worcester Road.

28:19Uh the propert is about four acres and about two and a half acres of the property was uh used heavily used for

28:27gravel uh activities [clears throat] in the past 30 years. Uh the uh my client is proposing to construct a gas station

28:37with a with a 5,000 square foot convenience store and five residential apartments on the second floor. Accesses

28:43from uh Wor Road. Um, we talked about this. Uh, we through the the the uh

28:51process, we hired the VA and associate to do a traffic study. They did a traffic study. Then the uh town hired uh

28:59MDM consultants to do the traffic reviews and I believe Mr. Mishel's here tonight for the next hearing. But at the last hearing, Mr. Misha was here also

29:08and walked through with the with the board on the issues on on on the traffic or the concerns that were raised by the

29:16uh by the uh neighbors and I believe all the traffic concerns were addressed at this time except one issue that was left

29:24open was the access from old Worcester Road and currently there's a gravel driveway from Old Worcester Road that

29:33access the site and at this time with this application. We propose to

29:40uh block it off with two gates and leave it as an emergency only for uh a per uh uh uh town personnel, fire or police.

29:50Our access to the site will be via two proposed driveways. One is a full access driveway to the west side. This will be

29:59an in entering and exiting and one will be exiting only along the east side of the driveway. Uh this will have to be

30:07approved by Mass DOT. We understand that if there's any changes to the access or the driveway configurations, we'll

30:15understand that we have to come back to this board through the process. There was on the original uh review. I believe

30:23Graves Engineering had about 50 comments on the storm water and the site layout and I think the first uh uh on the

30:31second submission we probably address 80% of those comments then there was another 20% we did address them and uh

30:38we submitted the our last uh uh revisions last month and uh I believe you do have the final or the second

30:46review from uh Graves Engineering I would just if you like me I did few open kind of comments and I would say they're

30:55very minor. I can go through them and explain what we're doing with those because I I think Mike says the design

31:04engineer should look at this and revise it as necessary. I don't think he needed to come back for review. One was a grade

31:12difference of 0.1 with one inch and we did that and another one had to do with the storage of the pond that was less

31:20than 1% of the required storage it was 99% but then due to maybe rounding so I

31:27did that and also there was uh the the uh the the one that I needed to to

31:34explain more would be the uh the loading and before we show the loading for the 30 foot loading because what we get most

31:42of our delivery is through box trucks and 30 ft is more than enough but I did revise the plans to make it 40 ft just

31:50in case you know we don't have an issue with that access uh I see someone from the fire department and we'll we'll get there I don't know if they're here for

31:58this but I would like to hear I did contact uh uh uh Chief Barton I sent them a copy of the device plans and uh

32:07we do have a template showing the access of the fire apparatus. I mean, you can see that we have a WB67

32:16that can navigate through the the site which is a 70 ft long. And this is the ladder. This is the biggest ladder that

32:24the fire department has. And also I have a temper showing that they can navigate through the site safely. Uh also there was a question about the water pressure.

32:34Some of the neighbors raised that. We did conduct a traffic a a pressure test

32:40and it came back as 92 static and 32 residual which is more than plenty. So our project will not affect water

32:49pressure for the neighbors. And also if you recall at the first few meetings we there were concerns about lighting and

32:57uh noise from from the from the traffic uh from the site. And I did have an overall plan showing the the site layout

33:06on the aerial. And I can show you that the closest neighbor to the site is about 450 ft. Also, we propose to

33:15install uh a six-foot white vinyl uh uh fence all around the the property facing

33:24the residential with arborites in the back and all the landscape was revised by reviewed by by your peer engineer.

33:32Um, I believe at this time we did address, if I go over the the lighting, the noise issue and the the uh the the

33:41buffer from the neighbors, the environmental. I explained that this is state-of-the-art gas station. It's a

33:48double wall with fiberglass constantly monitored 24 hours and also with the storm water we have all the valves that

33:57the that could be closed in case of of spill on the site that prevent the

34:04fuel from reaching either the ground or the wetlands. Um

34:12uh at this time I really asked the board that we need and I I did mention this before so many times so people can

34:19understand we're here for a special permit just for the apartments and the drive-thru because the gas station is an

34:26allowed use as of as of right. So we need to do a site interview which we did but the apartments uh is the special

34:35permit and the drive-thru. uh we have demonstrated that the drive-thru will have no negative impacts to the neighbors and I did submit a memo to

34:44that effect to the to the board before and uh I'll be happy to answer any questions that you have at this time

34:54to the chance of my concern um the hours for operation and I'm wondering if the fact that you

35:01have apartments might mean that you're more likely to curtail the hours. What are you proposing?

35:08Uh hours of operation, I believe we've talked about this before. Uh 6 to 10 to 11.

35:165 to 11. Okay. So, it's 5 to 11.

35:21And I promise, just to be clear, my client is here. I think I mentioned in the first hearing that he operates or he

35:28he has control of over 15 gas stations down the Cape and all through Massachusetts. Most of those people that living on top of the apartments are

35:36probably mostly people that work at the gas station and his other locations. But I mean for five, I'm not sure if it's going to be all occupied by the people,

35:43but at least majority of those apartments will be offered to the people that are working there. So, and that's what that was the previous trend on all these locations especially in Cape Cod.

35:57So the other feedback through the chair, thank you for making revisions to the

36:04design. So um just the storm water management off by 40 gallons or something. So that's been revised.

36:11I I I already revised it. I would you know I don't I I would submit the didn't revive the final with the grades

36:20and all that. I just error.

36:22It is. And I I mean we understand you know this system is designed to to to remove 100% phosphorus. You

36:30require 90 but I think we we remove 100%. And 90% TSS removal.

36:36And then can you just show me the loading area again? Um that that we're talking about the triangular.

36:43Well we we changed that. It was a triangle before but we did change the it's it's a rectangle now. And this is

36:49this area here. And it's 40 by 12. So, a truck will just back in out of the way of this drive through and wheel into the facility. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

37:03And then the the the gas uh tanker trucks right here. The gas tanker right here. They stay on the top. They stay on the top.

37:12Yes.

37:13All right. How how many tanks? Again, I apologize. Two tanks. Two gas tanks.

37:19Uh no. Well, they're split the uh gas and and diesel. Diesel. Yeah.

37:26And how many tanks and the volumes? Just there. Two tanks. I think each one if I remember 20,000 gallons

37:35and 20,000 gallons of diesel 20,000.

37:39No, I think it would be we usually do 15 10 uh regular five diesel 10 regular

37:46five diesel. So, or five super and 10 regular 10,000 and five on this

37:53configuration. I'm not I can't uh it should be on the plan. I can't tell you exactly what uh

38:0120,000 proposed one two 20,000. Okay. Right on top of the Wor.

38:10Yeah.

38:11Two 20,000 gallon tank. Yeah. So it will be 15 uh

38:2010 regular 10 diesel and 20 regular 10 diesel and 10 super you don't

38:28use as much anyway I the configuration I could change but this has to be uh approved through the fire department

38:36and also through the selector for the storage for the brand new and I believe I mentioned Uh my client has also a transportation business that he deliver.

38:47He has about 12 trucks that deliver those so he can control the delivery to me.

38:54Was there going to be a liquor license, beer, wine sales or liquor sales in the store? We need a different.

39:02Yeah, but the intention is probably normally if you can get it and it's available, we would have to go through

39:09the uh through the state on this one anyway.

39:13and the select who spoke to the the morning officer and the select board when I first came to the town and there

39:20was a license available right yeah I'm sure there is yeah which is a separate I'm just curious yeah no I mean it helps with the now

39:28convenience stores you see they sell those things okay questions

39:38what are the what's the current hours of the honey farms the mobile station.

39:49I mean, do you have uh set hours in the commercial business district?

39:54Yeah. So, whatever those hours are, I don't have to comply.

39:58I don't want to, you know, permit this one for four hours.

40:00Yes. No, I mean, yeah, that's a good question. I don't think there's hours in the bylaw in the zone.

40:08There isn't, but in the site plan, I think there were hours for for for both when they were approved. So,

40:16[clears throat]

40:19so your plans say you said a white plastic white fence. Your plan say um white cedar. White cedar, right?

40:27You said no the plastic. No vinyl. The vinyl is around the uh what we use for vinyl. We use it around the uh the dumpster, I think. Okay. So, it's called cedar.

40:37Cedar. Yeah. Because it actually it's better for sound than Then the vinyl.

40:41That's why we we chose the the the white. That's fine. That was my question. You I thought you had said vinyl before. Okay.

40:54What What flag do you Whose brand will this be? We don't know yet. Example.

41:04Ah, good. I see. So under a franchise or something.

41:14How many applications you got in the works right now? Where else you just this one?

41:23Well, actually we have two going on. Yeah.

41:32I'm just going to jump in a little bit.

41:34Um, see I we met at the last meetings and the the planning director now coming in kind of mid project here.

41:42Getting a sense of kind of some of the things that it it sounds like that the board might want. What's your general

41:50sense of of your timeline when you folks kind of hoping for a decision to be made on this?

41:56Well, as soon as possible because I'll tell you why. And I mentioned that at the first meeting. I think this is our

42:03first step basically, you know, here and we still have to go through the state and mass DOT and then we have some

42:10utilities to do and we have open uh so we we were at conservation and conservation

42:19waiting for you I guess to approve the I don't know and I had the impression that you wanted conservation through they said no we want so we were hoping I I

42:29was hoping that you can vote on it tonight. Why do they Why don't we do any parallels? I I don't have an answer to that yet. Can we ask?

42:36Yeah, you [clears throat] give me give me some time on that one with with how conservation does things.

42:40Well, you've already met with conservation already.

42:43And they've given you comments. I mean, yeah, there was comments we there comments where there was a comment about

42:50the two 24in pipes that were in the in the wetland area that we didn't they weren't shown on the plans.

42:58And the comment was from their uh environmental engineer that those two connected they should act as one body

43:06and they there was a question about whether this work was legally or illegally done or something like that.

43:13So and they had concern about the storm water. Those are the two. So we went we sent back the survey out in the field.

43:21We located those pipes. So those are two connected and Rose went through the uh public records with D back to the six

43:31I can't remember 30 years ago she said and they found a permit so this wasn't a legal so there was a permit for this and

43:38the storm waters all resolved with the peer review so I don't they have no so it is parallel they're just they wanted you to to approve it

43:46they just don't want to so they are working with you they just have it in their final approval they said go to the planning board you had the plan board and and I thought

43:55you were holding the hearings on the same nights just I guess just because it was the the summer schedule because you were only one hearing the same.

44:05Okay. So, we're we're going in front of them next uh next Wednesday on the 9th.

44:11So, I'm hoping that I don't have to have the you if you close the public hearing and say, "Okay, you know, you can take your time." I know Chris will be working

44:19on probably on the permit and uh if he has any questions he can call me or uh

44:26you know any but I don't think there's any more material that we need to submit you know all the concerns that were

44:34raised either by the boards or the neighbors or everybody where you know with the peer review they all you know and we would like to move on because we

44:44need we have a purchase and sales agreement that we've already I think extended extended it a few times and and you know

44:50so you know we already in here and I don't want to tell you what the numbers but with we spent

44:58and by the way I have a check for $5,000. I got your your your mail on on Monday and uh yeah this is for the review.

45:07So we want to check our the off hours of operation for the other gas stations that we have. Okay. um just

45:15so we're fair across the across the board and um and look at um look at uh

45:23locations of of residences compared to what the other ones have too. So So maybe it isn't exactly the same because

45:32there are people living close or whatever. Let's let's um through the SH I mean we may have some comments here. Um, I think we can

45:41[clears throat] look at the gas stations online and see what their I mean the honey farms look like it's something.

45:47Yeah. So, and and uh I think that the spaghetti or the sitco

45:55you can look at the hours there for the sitco. So, um, I don't know. I I'm not sure I don't know if your plan was to continue this

46:03to another another time, but I'm not sure we I'm not sure there's any other information we need to make that decision.

46:10And that's just and because we're going to be voting on the apartments, right?

46:14Sure. Sure. But we've had that promise for a while. Yeah.

46:16And the um the question was does do these apartments factor into our affordable housing calculation and how

46:25do we and how can we make that happen or what kind of power or control that we have over that or say or um only because

46:35if anybody's going to fix that problem in this town it's going to be us and we're going to be like this. it won't factor in unless they're deed uh

46:45permanently. And so I'd like to ask our our our trustee attorney um if that's something that is um

46:53yes and then just uh so so another thing with as well I can begin writing a decision for this so that way the board

47:00has a draft review and you folks can also view that as well and that can be something that we workshop between now and the next meeting so you folks can

47:08see it and [clears throat] making sure there's no surprises or requirements that we're putting in there that you didn't expect. Um, as well as I know the

47:15board prior to me arriving here had um authorized uh legal uh counsel on this

47:23one which I think it would very much behoove you folks as well that we do have legal representation with this so that way we make sure that whatever

47:30decision is written is going to be something that's solid that wouldn't be um you know wouldn't get overturned on

47:37an appeal because I I made some mistake in there the way that I wrote it. Um,

47:46so my recommendation would be uh I think the one that was made our

47:52I just now uh spoken with it was KP Law uh who I think we'll be using for legal counsel. It would be similar to how we do grace engineering an escro account.

48:03We'd retain them to help in writing this decision and then we could be back at the next meeting hopefully with a draft the board would actually be able to vote

48:10on. Does that sound like an approach that works for everyone here on the board? Is that something that the applicant would be okay with rather than

48:19if the board to approve it today? I'd end up writing a decision and it'll be kind of a lot of administrative discretion in there as to what goes in

48:27there where if we continue it, it'll be more or less the same timeline, but then you'll have a much better idea of what's actually being voted on.

48:38I I I'm I'm okay with that, but the chair question. Um, so your main concern is is really around the apartments and

48:48the drive-thru also the special permits. That's the question, right? I mean, we're not I mean, it's

48:55not we thought I mean when the informal meetings with the town and the first time we brought this up and they thought maybe this is good for housing and

49:04that's why we put but I'll tell you one thing too. I mean we did the pressure test. The pressure test is excellent but

49:10we still have to bring a a service that is 750 ft from the site. So if we lose that pressure and then we need to do

49:19pressure pump and it becomes non-cost effective we might drop the apartments altogether. We might you know we're not

49:27saying that you know but we are here the drive-thru is with the convenience store. That's that's absolutely it's a

49:34it's it's an an accessory uh use to the use. So, you know, so if we don't if

49:41you're in doubt, I mean, we can drop the apartments and then keep the the drive-thru. And if you want to vote, I

49:50mean, I I heard that you're going to hire another uh I thought you had a council. You you're hiring another council uh for to write the decision

49:58to help write the decision. I think it would be And is that the end? My client will have to I mean are we Yes. I just want to

50:06make sure we understand that. So we'll have to pay for their services too, right? Yeah.

50:14I don't expect it to be exorbitant anything like that. I I think it would be a $4,000 escrow and then I imagine

50:21you folks would be getting I mean my chair and I'm not I'm personally I I sit on the zoning board of appeal in

50:29my town. I was the chairman for years and I'm still there. I understand how this works. I don't think but for you to feel comfortable for me, I'd rather have

50:38a clean vote tonight for this project, you know, and you know, it's not I'm sure you've done special permits before

50:45and I don't know if this is very complicated, but again again I'm not saying that this is not the the route.

50:53If this is what you feel like you want to do that my client is here and I think you know it's not something that uh we would probably be opposed to, right?

51:05But so so you you had mentioned you were talking to town about the housing and they were excited because of that.

51:10Well, first initial with the with the Yeah. the the building commissioner and I think it was like the the I can't remember the gentleman that was here

51:19the the town planner minister or the town planner prior

51:27Randy you know that was you know procedure that we can go through with this.

51:31Would these be designated as affordable apartments through the all this? I mean, on top of the gas station, I'm not saying that, you know,

51:40but it it is more affordable and I think my client can speak to that require a special special designation.

51:47I I'm not sure if this is if this is controlled by housing or by uh what do you do on the Cape with the Do you

51:56submit anything for housing like near the uh just one unit for one unit was but that wasn't a decision I think to be

52:04in affordable housing was a decision for one unit yeah through the through the chair I

52:12think the as u we've seen he he's been in front of several times he's made we've asked them

52:20to do the transportation study satisfied all the graves engineering requirements um I think this is an application that's

52:28ready to go. I understand uh the language, you know, for an approval, but

52:35um we can approve this maybe conditionally. It's always the case, I think, that uh Concom will want to wait

52:45for us for an approval before they give approval. [clears throat] I don't hear anything from Concom that is going to change the plans at all.

52:54And if it does, they would have to come back before us. that would change the plan.

52:57We said that with the with with the mass DOT and if there's something changed I mean special permit any changes will have to come back in front of the board.

53:05I don't see and again it's it's just if you have special you I'm sure you've granted

53:12special permits before or variouses or I mean not various you're not as No, I understand and I'm trying

53:20to thank you. No, I I really, you know, it's I have to tell you this is not that we don't like to come here every week,

53:27but you know, like it's really uh I mean I already paid for engineers, do traffic

53:34studies and reviews, you know, it's not then can we can we should we say we want you 10% we want an an affordable

53:43apartment with that like why without the decision the decision what needs to be designated as one. Do you have an objection?

53:53Yeah, I mean Yeah, that would be fine. Yeah, make that would help.

54:00Who else is going to solve that issue that we have in town? It's one step.

54:03No, I I agree. I'm I'm not saying that I don't think with all respect I don't think you need an attorney to you know

54:10if if this is in the bylaws and it says 10% is one unit and I don't think we've ever I have never done that before on this board. So I

54:18just that's why I said like do we have to ask our attorney how to but if you're asking you're not demanding I'm not sure

54:28there are some funding benefits to having affordable as you go if it's something we agree upon there's grants

54:36for it too we can yeah we can do one unit to be dedicated for housing I mean

54:44that yeah okay then conditional upon that maybe a a request to the applicant to

54:51put at least one unit into deed into [clears throat] the other gas stations I'm looking at a

55:01lot of them are we've got the mass pipe those are 24 it's the one that's on

55:09the other one on 20 is 24 hours so I just I don't want to add restrictions when we don't I mean you you'll selfrest

55:16you're comfortable with the 7:00, right? Yeah. So, if that's fine, then that's good.

55:24Um, do we have questions from the audience before we the I'm sorry, Holly over at 80 Worster Road.

55:32Um, the apartments that you're proposing, what are these single units?

55:39Are these studio apartments? What kind of apartments are these? Two bedroom apartments.

55:43Two bedrooms. Five twobedroom apartments.

55:57Hi Robin child for over 50 years in town for over

56:0350 years. Thank you sir for choosing child to come to and spend your money in

56:11the spending. Um it's it's certainly welcome and uh the

56:17competition will be good for communities for the people within the community.

56:25Um I do want to throw this in there. I know that have gone through the 55 and over project that's bylaw that we have

56:35in town. If it's more than seven, if it's seven or more units, you then got

56:40to dedicate 10% of the uh units to be uh

56:47affordable and affordable is defined as uh no more than 80% of the median

56:55income. So, um, I don't, you know, I I think if the applicant is willing to do

57:03that, it's fine. But I don't think it's a good policy that just go go off the

57:11board here and say, "Well, I think we'll do this. I think we'll do that." So, how do the people from the outside know what's going on?

57:16Yeah. Well, we have an issue in town and if we can solve it like, you know, a little bit at a time, then it's the way I hear what exactly what you're saying.

57:25But but do it through the town legislation. You you can't just do it from sit sitting in the chair. Yeah.

57:33See, and again, I I I hear what you're saying and and and there is a problem.

57:38Uh the thing is is the problem can be solved if you help to be solved uh in

57:44quite a few different ways and cost of construction is just too much. I did want to ask just so that people get a

57:52general idea, but your budget's got to be close to $5 million to do this. I just did one in B similar.

57:59Yeah, I spent $6 million just six. Okay. And again, thank you for coming to our town. Thank you for for for helping to reduce the tax load.

58:10Thank you for providing the service that you're going to provide. And and uh thanks for uh like I said, as as far as

58:19uh keeping the taxes down and um welcome. Thank you. Thank you.

58:29Anything else?

58:33So, do we vote on each piece? I believe we have to do the the whole application. Do we um how do we vote on this?

58:41Um I uh I do apologize we didn't have a packet prepared for procedural vote because generally speaking uh you can

58:51vote on yeah separately the site plan approval portion the special permit portion uh then the conditions

58:59and I have for the conditions of hours of operation 5:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. Uh, and we want to have that be maybe

59:07modified by just return to a public meeting. So, you don't necessarily have to reopen the hearing.

59:13Just get on the agenda and then the board is able to modify.

59:16Is the drive-thru separate and the um and the apartments separate or is all one is it gas stations uh separate application?

59:28Two special permits, right?

59:29Right. And then yeah, I guess two special permits because we could approve one and deny another.

59:35Yeah. So yeah, I would do each [clears throat] one individually and then um the conditions,

59:43right? and the conditions. I think maybe just to echo the comments we heard, maybe we can uh phrase this as a request

59:51to the applicant to extend affordable housing to at least one year rather than a demand.

59:59I would like it make it conditional because it will if we do this for all of everything in the future that may have this then we'll slowly solve our

1:00:07problem. just one and and who knows the the price of the apartments might just fall into the into

1:00:14the right category as it is but but it's it's only my opinion I I think we heard agreed with

1:00:23yeah we're fine I mean I can I put forward a motion to uh approve make motion to approve the

1:00:30gas station filing site plan application uh with ours condition 5 until 11 p.m. I

1:00:39think that was the only condition for the gas station.

1:00:42The gas station do the special permits first or you want to do the site plan.

1:00:48So do the site plan site plan for the gas station site plan special then conditions all.

1:00:54Yeah. Okay. So I'd like to make a motion for site plan approval for the gas station. I think we need to close the public

1:01:02hearing for sure. Is there anybody else before we close this?

1:01:08Hearing none. Seeing none, I'll make a motion to close.

1:01:10Excuse me. Sorry. I just had one other question. I don't know if this is relevant at all. Um, as far as the water

1:01:17supply in general, like bringing extra water because right now that water source is coming from the town of Southbridge

1:01:25and that will be sufficient. no issues with housing, you know, water for five additional apartments and um the the gas station in general.

1:01:36Yeah, I think that to the pressure test that was that was requested by the fire.

1:01:40I just didn't know how that like affects South the town of South Bridge as far as them.

1:01:44Um I think there's enough capacity in the line to for future development. Uh you know that's that you they will have to go in front of the

1:01:53Well, we excuse me. That was the first step before we applied even for the special permit. I contacted them.

1:02:02So it was they said it's available because there's a 12 in main on uh uh

1:02:11on road right now a dry pipe because there's not enough to to activate that pipe.

1:02:21So, make a motion to close the public hearing for Hatim Enterprises LLC, Worester Road. Second. All in favor?

1:02:27I I So, make a motion to uh approve the gas fueling station application from HMI.

1:02:39um with a condition.

1:02:45Okay. With the conditions, uh I think the only one for the gas station was hours 5:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. with those conditions.

1:02:54I'll second.

1:02:56All in favor? I I make a motion to approve the special application for

1:03:05a driveth through use at the gasoline fueling station form Enterprises.

1:03:14This is for the sorry um uh I'll second that. All

1:03:23in favor? I I make motion to approve the special

1:03:31permit application for H five housing units uh for the application for HM

1:03:40Enterprises with a um one of the conditions being uh at least one unit is placed into

1:03:49affordable housing status. Um the sixth There's five

1:03:56five units. So housing units one out of the five units one out of the units to be placed into affordable

1:04:05housing status such that it would be counted towards their subsidized housing. Thank you.

1:04:14Second. All in favor?

1:04:16I I I Well, thank you. Well, thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you.

1:04:22We just want to make sure your buildings do look good. The one right there at the Born Rotary is a nice Yeah, too I believe.

1:04:32Yes. In the process. Oh, Yam. Is that the one?

1:04:38Was it Hyenas? Was it Hyannis? No, but the one I know the one on the board is very nice.

1:04:42Yeah, that's nice.

1:04:55Uh yeah, it um if you need to use you can figure it out.

1:05:09No, that one's fine. I can definitely write it. Uh my only concern is just uh not having a decision in front of us.

1:05:17We don't kind of have an employer plate condition. So if any kind of conditions that are objected to that weren't

1:05:24explicitly stated just put in a position where an applicant can say well we don't like this condition. So but no worries

1:05:32I'll make sure going forward that you know with these I would be prepared for a vote tonight.

1:05:36So my apologies on that. I will try to have a draft decision and maybe I should have just held off and said they can wait another week

1:05:43because next time next Yeah so long you can't submit it.

1:05:53So it may not even made a difference that we we pushed it out. I felt peer pressure just so you know. I'm just I'm just I think it's actually called bullying nowadays.

1:06:04You can't submit it till it's clear.

1:06:07So maybe that is but yeah I know I we haven't we've had other gas stations that have come before us that

1:06:16I'm also you know just being I know very sensitive [clears throat] to the

1:06:24in town to make a little business friendly I think we're really business friendly

1:06:32compared to I've watched a lot of business friendly it's a nice Is here

1:06:53not the first time again supposed

1:07:01madam chair how how long do we allow people to keep pushing off these We're in this in such a mess.

1:07:10Yeah.

1:07:11With that. So I don't I don't even know how to My fear is as you know the subdivision

1:07:18is it the subdivision law where the site plan approval freezes the zoning not the use. I mean freezes the

1:07:27property but not the use. And some developers use it to bypass our zoning.

1:07:32So if they continuously, oh, we're going to do something, but they're they're playing a game. They have space by reszoning.

1:07:41It's more about it's more it's the issue is more about that there's people living up there and it's still a mess.

1:07:50Okay.

1:07:50I think that's my I mean I don't know if you guys see anything, but it's it's it's a it's like it just kind of

1:07:57dribbles down and um we think it's getting a little bit better and it never does. Um, I don't know. I I don't

1:08:05I just wondered being you've been on board for so long and this has just been a mess up a pain in the ass since the very

1:08:13beginning and it's just never been a problem solved.

1:08:18Um, I don't know. I don't know what I mean. We we've got a public hearing here. Um, we've got people here that want to speak on it. Maybe let's do that.

1:08:25Take that in there and and we'll take it into consideration. Maybe like maybe we need to have a town hall meeting then to

1:08:34say what what what do we what do we do here if the town has to do something?

1:08:39Um, but let's do we have I guess I mean we can ask if it's questions they have. [clears throat] If it's just concerned if they wanted to hear a plan and it's something

1:08:47anybody who has comments on anything, we'd love to hear them. Welcome to comment if you want.

1:08:54Here's fine. I'll project um Bill Balencius David, but I'm also president

1:09:01of the Charlton Heritage Preservation Trust. And um I definitely feel for the the residents at the top of the hill.

1:09:11That's that is awful. Um so ship

1:09:19kind of specializes in making the best of bad situations.

1:09:23So if there's going to be a whole bunch more bunch more houses going in place, um we'd really like to be able to preserve

1:09:31some of the open space that's there right now.

1:09:34partly as a buffer for the residents of Meadow Lane and partly because it's like big enough for people to take advantage

1:09:43of recreationally and uh during the December 3rd 2025 meeting

1:09:52which seems like the last time they actually showed up. Not sure they did show up at the time.

1:09:58We did have somebody here recently a few weeks ago. Few weeks ago. Yeah. Okay. Yep. before that it was December.

1:10:06Yeah. Okay.

1:10:06Um there was a discussion about access to the open space. So two weeks ago or

1:10:14four weeks ago, four weeks ago, they showed up with a site plan and um they basically made the

1:10:22open space land blocks, which is a huge problem in Charleston.

1:10:29What good is landlock open space? It's a place where invasives just take root. Um it's areas that you can't manage.

1:10:40Uh so if you needed to get through to get diseased trees out or something, which is again big problem in

1:10:48Massachusetts, you can't do it. So you'll lose a lot more. Um, it looked like potentially there was an

1:10:57area um on the bottom of the hill where there would be access, but I think

1:11:04that's like access direct into a swamp, which is not access.

1:11:11So, I just wanted to leave that just through the chair just looking

1:11:21through some of the notes. So, the last correspondence we've had with uh the their PE from Punk until May 30th. I

1:11:29think that was the last correspondence with our engineer

1:11:36what Graves has had contact uh up to July 1st. So

1:11:44they got the documents they got July 1.

1:11:49foil and then there are some notes that you know they're asking for

1:11:56changes to the design from Graves Engineering.

1:12:04for those respons

1:12:14if I may. So Mike Ward 9-year run um so we're at the bottom of this development.

1:12:20So about a year ago, my understanding is that they went in I think without a permit and started clearing out a lot of land. My concern is the erosion control.

1:12:31We're at the bottom of this. So, if they're going to abandon the property, they're going to drag this out for years.

1:12:37The properties at the bottom of this are going to suffer. So, that's my concern.

1:12:42That's why I wanted to hear and I've been following this along for a while and I understand the frustration. It feels like this person has just kind of

1:12:49blown the town off. Made a purchase. I don't think I think they got in over their head and now they're willing to

1:12:56probably walk away from it or try to sell it for pennies on the dollar, but it's a disaster up there. So, just want

1:13:03to voice the concern of the people not just on the top of the property, the ones that are going to catch the rainwater, the runoff, all the the

1:13:11challenges that are going to come from a bunch of land that was cleared out improperly.

1:13:16Are they still working up there or I haven't seen anything.

1:13:19So, it was about it was actually almost a year ago. Is there erosion control current? I don't think so. I don't think so. Has anybody brought that to the attention of

1:13:27Yeah. There's not a single bail of air waddle or anything up there. When they did it, you know, again, it was about a year ago and I came in and I looked at

1:13:36all the plants. I was nice enough to let me go take a look at it and I shared it with all my neighbors and they're not

1:13:43happy. The fact that this person loved the idea, put more house in the neighborhood. Love it. The concern is now this guy is abandoning the property,

1:13:52abandoning the project, and we're going to be left with a fallout.

1:13:55Understood conition

1:14:03and make him fix it. What was the street? So I'm on deer run. You're on deer.

1:14:11So meadow turns into deer run and then you go up ponkin and then it veers off to the left. High press.

1:14:17Yeah. Um, and what was your last name? Quilter. Qu U I L T E R.

1:14:22Y and it's nine deer run. All right. Thank you.

1:14:26Can we send a correspondence maybe an email to conservation to open up just to as an FBI

1:14:34for better communication. Hey forwarding from Mr. Quilter nine deer run. This is what we've heard. that's

1:14:43come to our attention that people kind of want a timeline of the progress

1:14:48maybe um I think um maybe maybe Jane can actually put together a

1:14:57timeline because there's new people on the board that that also um definitely should see the um maybe we create a

1:15:06general timeline and see I just don't know our options I I know we've this has been in front of our

1:15:14attorneys before and we've tried to um to fix this.

1:15:19At least erosion control is something that might be able to at least immediately help you out a little bit.

1:15:24Yeah, it's it's a it's an absolute concern. Absolutely. With the slope downs, it it would hit 15 properties.

1:15:31We talked about like the the delays and the zoning and what what possibly could have been up there and stuff. So,

1:15:39I didn't realize he was here last meeting. I was I think was it the last meeting or is it the was it June meeting?

1:15:49He wasn't on the He wasn't he wasn't on the agenda the one or something like it was. Well, I I forget what happened. He showed up and then

1:15:57but I mean right now we don't have anything to act on here, you know, without any changes to his design.

1:16:06But now we have something that could you share what the change of the design was again I was here a year ago he had proposed I think it was 10

1:16:13properties some that had circled around one at a high crest and [clears throat] so the way it set up high crest on one side high crest on another y

1:16:21there's a gap in between and I don't think there's ability to close the gap due to wetlands so his plan was to build

1:16:28I think seven properties on this side three properties on the other um but again he up a year ago.

1:16:36I don't think the plan had changed. I think he went into some health issues over the past year and is what he had said. I think

1:16:44wasn't it listed for as one estate lot online though like he might be trying to unload it. Yeah. The whole thing.

1:16:52I thought I read it. Yeah.

1:16:54That was a sort of a rumor we heard through the neighborhood that he was trying to unload the property. But I I watch realtor and all those. So it was

1:17:03I haven't seen anything kind of come through.

1:17:07Yeah. I think maybe we need to have a town figure out discussion opposite.

1:17:16Can we can you coordinate a discussion and and all the the key people that need to be in that conversation? um because

1:17:24it might be a um a sort of a a group question to to our attorney to see we

1:17:32need to we need to we need to somehow draw some sort of linear one especially if we're seeing things

1:17:43being listed even even it's absolutely his discretion to list it's just it feels like it's not being it's not transparent and stuff

1:17:52and we're there to protect the town and our So can we can you just coordinate and have the right people in the room right so like in conservation

1:18:01just so there's a discussion in Andrew probably and and see um maybe it's worth a KP you know whatever

1:18:09of a discussion to say hey what are what are and we did that we did that a while ago too but what can we do to fix this

1:18:16and the concern about um you know there was this this open space and now it's it's modified like um is there anything

1:18:24else we can do for that because if um I I I love you good access to that the old

1:18:33space if anything comes on supposed to be a little cut out and used here and parking and they missed that

1:18:41turned into frontage. So so immediately though the erosion would at least help.

1:18:48So let's get all the right people and I certainly wouldn't want the town to be footing bill for this.

1:18:55Yeah. So it's and I'm sure it's not the town's been avoiding that bill for a long time.

1:19:00So you know thanks for coming in.

1:19:08Um, will you put your concerns in writing? Will you just put them?

1:19:15Do we have a couple? It's on record and we can pull those emails. I don't know about this space and I actually emailed you. Copy.

1:19:23Okay.

1:19:24Not too long ago. Just reiterating what I had done before. Okay.

1:19:29I just don't want it to be lost in the discussion. Yep. No, I'm not going to let it.

1:19:36[laughter]

1:19:38invested.

1:19:39Do we want to reach out to him to find out when he can come back in here and meet or do we want to continue this to our next meeting?

1:19:45We definitely want to continue to the time and date certain. Um, we continue to the next meeting and we do two meetings. Isn't the next meeting Jan?

1:19:55Do we do we have a lot on the 16th?

1:19:57Yeah, we have a lot on the 16th. If we want it just as a placeholder, we can just continue to the next meeting just so and then here or not. We'll just keep

1:20:06continuing it or we can really want no harm in doing that. We'll continue it to October our second meeting in October if we're really looking for a date

1:20:15because that and it will give you know just in case he happens to come in not it'll give him more of a notice and see if we can get that that internal meeting done sooner

1:20:23than later. So at the next meeting we can actually come out with some um some some real information on what we can do

1:20:31here and some options for the actually recommend um to give ourselves some time and I know

1:20:40we've got a lot on our next agenda and the 30 is filling up quickly. I would say continue to the 21st and

1:20:4820th 21st of October. 21st of October. That will give us some time.

1:20:55Yeah, it will give us give us a little under the internal potential. I mean, you know, the attorneys take about four years to get

1:21:02back to us. Um, [clears throat] the uh let's again, let's not come back and just talk about, you know, let's

1:21:09have some talk about um or at least it doesn't seem like he's under any pressure to internal pressure to get this done anytime soon. So,

1:21:17okay. Um make a motion to extend the tonic hill estates WAR

1:21:24uh subdivision um public in to October 21st.

1:21:3221st second. All in favor?

1:21:36I I Thank you all for coming. Thank you.

1:21:43Yep. Thanks. Thank you. All right. Thank you.

1:21:50We have um last but not least, we have Amazon um continued public.

1:22:02Oh, no.

1:22:10Oh, yeah. Oh.

1:22:17Wrong guy. Sorry. Mike Andre Mike Andre is not here today. He is dropping his kids off at school at college.

1:22:27Yeah. Yeah.

1:22:49My glasses are going to be grab you one too from a different packet.

1:23:10another cure for you. No, I have I have it. I found it.

1:23:18facilities that live before we open it.

1:23:20Can I ask that maybe we're going to be talking a lot about traffic and I know I asked the first time they

1:23:28were here but the trip how many cars on a trip and a trip is one way versus round trip because we

1:23:37were a little I was confused but we're going to have a lot of people watching this. So if that could be cleared up

1:23:44before his presentation maybe it'll help people understand the counts.

1:23:49We have our traffic, right? So I Yeah, the whole count thing.

1:23:54So after you open it, maybe plus some some definitions for the people watching.

1:23:59So when they say,400 trips, it's 700 in, 700 out. Yay.

1:24:05It's double. A trip is one way. And we discussed it [clears throat] at the informal meeting. Um at the time

1:24:15it was on the Yeah. I just that way people realize it's 300 in and then we the second trip out. So it's doubled. So it's 700 cars.

1:24:27It's 350 trips. But just so people at home can understand all the verbiage that we Sorry. Thank you.

1:24:35Okay. Of course. Um in accordance with section 200 um 3.2

1:24:436 and 207.1 and 207.2 two of the child bylaw and child and planning board will hold a

1:24:50public hearing on Wednesday, September 2nd at 6 p.m. in the planning board office in the George Cry building 47 Main Street Child and Mass on the

1:24:59application of Amazon 53 um road child mass for a modification of a previous issue special permit and site plan

1:25:07approval to add a last mile delivery distribution component to the existing facility under which independent

1:25:15contract drivers using personal vehicles will pick up packages on site for delivery to customers. assesses map 27 block parcel one in zone business park.

1:25:28So um as Lori requested um well we'll let you present them. I think

1:25:37you want to ask for the clarification [clears throat] just for any any terms you're using if you just want to define them as you go through your presentation since you know what does that mean one

1:25:46way two-way that sort of thing would be very helpful for anyone viewing this recording later at home we can do

1:25:53so my name is Matt I'm an industrial architect and engineer I'm a CESO with me tonight is Zach with Van Austin

1:26:01Associates a leading traffic expert in this part of the country certainly very adept at what they do. And sir, I think you're with MDM.

1:26:10That is correct.

1:26:10Bob's with MDM who wrote the peer review and we'll talk about all that in just a moment. So what I'd like to do is do a

1:26:18quick overview just in case anybody didn't have the earlier gist of what the program is about. Uh once I do that, I

1:26:25want to clarify like there's there's three traffic reports. So I want to talk about those just so everybody has it straight in their head and then turn it over to the traffic experts and we have

1:26:34some dialogue around that. and then open it up for any dialogue or questions if that be all right. Okay. So, this is the Amazon O3 facility at 53 Stirbridge.

1:26:46And as you take a look at this facility, the area that we're looking at um having an alteration, this is a

1:26:54supplemental program, by the way, so it's just a small little piece of the puzzle for this is you see the parking lot at the top left of the building there is the area that we're looking at.

1:27:05And what this does is it introduces a concept called flex. And what flex does is it allows a package that is urgent or

1:27:14time sensitive uh to be able to be delivered quickly to someone's household. So something that like needs to be there within hours. So if a young

1:27:22mom orders something at lunchtime, it's going to be there by the [clears throat] time she gets off work and be there at her house. All the other uh packages

1:27:30come at the normal means by which they go out. So, there's three facilities in and around uh the greater Boston area.

1:27:38Those three facilities load up trucks that come up and down your streets and deliver in the conventional Amazon blue vans. This is different from that. This

1:27:46is just the urgent supplemental packages that need to get there quickly. So, this little U area that you see here in

1:27:53yellow and green is a portion of that parking lot that is in the upper left.

1:27:58There's two yellow banks. They're existing that don't need any amendments.

1:28:01I just put them in yellow. You could easily identify them with a crosswalk going down through there. And then on the green ones, we would just simply add

1:28:10the bumper blocks and put a crosswalk out there to keep drivers safe and then jersey barriers. And I did take uh

1:28:17Curtis Mezcus had given us uh the indication that some snow removal equipment was there last winter. Did talk to the plant about that and they

1:28:24will scoot that down to the next available spot.

1:28:28So from a civil perspective, that's what that looks like. If you're wondering what a flex driver is, so if you look at these little carts, these are two foot

1:28:36by 4 foot carts. You can see on the right here, there's about 10 or 12 packages, and the person is taking the packages out to the back of their car

1:28:44and loading. If you notice, most of these are like Toyota, Corollas, and Honda Civics. That's common. And what

1:28:51these typically are flex driver is somebody that's asked to come and either do a one, a two, or a three-hour

1:28:58delivery. And the longer deliveries are because they're further out in more rural areas. The flex drivers are good for the community and that they

1:29:07typically end up being people that are summer retired or um a mom that has kids in school but has only a few hours and

1:29:14wants to work a little bit. So, it's good for the community to have the flex driver program. offers jobs for people that are supplemental to what they're

1:29:21doing and so it gets the packages there uh quickly to them.

1:29:27Uh the only change that we're asking for is for this flex supplemental program.

1:29:35If you look at the building, this is a big building. The area in gray is the only area that's being modified. It's

1:29:42about 8,000 square feet. And for product control, it's a chain link fence inside of the existing building. So all of the

1:29:50fire suppression remains the same. HBAC remains the same. Lighting remains the same. The chain link fence just acts as

1:29:57a perimeter product control so that the people on the inside of the plant aren't working with cahoots on the people outside of the plant to help steal

1:30:05product. So it just creates a separation barrier there.

1:30:10Uh we talked during the pre-application, we had talked about these window uh dispatches of sending drivers out to

1:30:18make deliveries. We had a lot of discussion in the minute when we turn it over to the traffic people. The discussion centered on the ride into

1:30:25work and the ride home from work. And so [clears throat] what we've uh made an election to do is to ask the owner to uh

1:30:33exclude the 7 to 8 a.m. window and exclude the 5 to 6 pm window. And when you see the traffic reports in just a

1:30:41moment, it's mostly that evening slot uh is your pinch point on Stirberg Trout 20. And so what we are presenting here

1:30:49today is that we would have um the bulk of the deliveries happening at 3:45 to 6:45 a.m. And you might be wondering,

1:30:58you know, why is that so early in the morning? People go home from work, they order things, it cues up, and then all of those items are picked, and then

1:31:06they're able to be able to go out the next morning. So, the bulk of that will go out before most people even go to work. When you look at the traffic data just a little bit, there's only

1:31:14singledigit cars on the road at those hours. It's a good time if you're going to have people out. It's a good time to have them respond. 7 to 8, nothing. And,

1:31:24uh, we'll have the client put that in writing. And then 10:30 to 11:30, uh, there'll be one dispatch window, be 20%.

1:31:32Another one in that 3 to 4:45 will be 20%. Nothing 445 coming out of the

1:31:40facility and we would stop it just at that.

1:31:44Uh, one of the other things is we'd like to ask that both for the benefit of the town and for the client is to just

1:31:52annually revisit it. So, just put a can opener on it annually reopen it and have the board look at it, have the client

1:32:00look at it, make sure it's working for you, make sure it's working for them.

1:32:03And that just creates a [clears throat] way of fair and honestly looking at it once a year and then adjust up or down.

1:32:10And then um another thing that the client had asked for is just some understanding that there are times when

1:32:18there are um a flexibility at a high volume like back to school is one. The Friday after Thanksgiving is another.

1:32:27Um so there there are like a couple times a year where there's peak times.

1:32:32They just asked me to ask you uh to just simply acknowledge that. So they don't expect big variations from it. They just

1:32:38ask that. Um the vicinity is uh route 20 coming across the top and I'll turn over to the engineers here in just a minute.

1:32:47Route 20 coming across the top and then uh 169 in the back. When I was here in June, I had suggested the [clears throat] idea that the delivery

1:32:55drivers go out of the back of the facility. When you read the traffic data, the data actually points to the idea that it's it's really at the end of

1:33:04the day, it's about a 5050 proposition out the front and the back. I think it would maybe be disadvantageous to bring

1:33:11them in through the back. And it might be advantageous to say don't put a restriction on which direction to send them. Let them equally come out of the

1:33:19facility and go to both of those so that it distributes that load equally across uh both of those. So, I'll leave that

1:33:27over to the traffic engineers in just a moment here. [clears throat] I also have a couple of images here um that are here for reference so that when we turn it

1:33:35over um they can talk through these uh intersections. But there's three reports. And so the three reports I want

1:33:43to mention are the first one is the uh March 20th 2026 report that was due to

1:33:51you. That is the annual kind of true up when the building was built. Here's what we estimated, what the traffic was, and

1:33:58then how is it doing now post build. I'm going to turn over to Zach in just a minute, but tell you how that's doing.

1:34:04The second report is dated June 3rd, 2026, which is addresses my it was time with

1:34:11my preapp meeting. That one was strictly meant to be this is when you add the supplemental program, that's how this

1:34:18relates to the original work. And then thirdly, the gentleman Bob here from MDM wrote a very nice peer review and what

1:34:26he does is he takes into account the proposal of what's being asked to be made and the considerations for that.

1:34:32There's six comments associated with that. I'll save that for Bob to be able to address. So Zach, if you'd like to take over with the two reports.

1:34:41So you already gave the overview of where we're at in the process uh with the reports and to review. Um so the

1:34:48main thing I'll clear up first um based on that table so it is going to be 700

1:34:55flex drivers um per day. That's what we're proposing currently with just 700 entering trips and 700 exiting. So 1,400

1:35:04vehicle trips is what it would result in. And so the main point we're currently working through the comments.

1:35:11We haven't submitted uh our response comments yet. Um but internally we've gone through uh and started responding.

1:35:21The main thing here is that we're shifting the traffic off peak so that we don't worsen the traffic conditions

1:35:29already when Amazon trips are getting out and the peak of the roadway is happening rush hour which is the 7 to 8 and 5 to 6 p.m. time slots.

1:35:39The other aspect and this is a little different from what he just previously mentioned um and this is also what MDM

1:35:47uh had recommended uh shifting the trips so all southbound

1:35:55into South Bridge to or from should all trips bound to South should be taking

1:36:02the 169 driveway. Uh and DM pointed out that in our traffic analysis uh there was some local service E and Fs which are undesirable uh traffic conditions.

1:36:13There was longer delays at that driveway in comparison to uh local service A and B overall at the signal on Route 20. So,

1:36:22we think it would be more advantageous to send any trips with Flex and also the Amazon facility for employees and

1:36:30everybody um bound to South Bridge to the 169 driveway and everybody else to Route 20. That way you can bypass the

1:36:38Route 20 169 intersection um and it'll alleviate some pressure there. Uh the last thing that I'll

1:36:46mention uh in regards to this is the traffic monitoring program for Amazon.

1:36:51So anything that we do here in terms of the flex delivery will be subject to mass DOT and state review as a part of

1:36:59the monitoring program. Um and that March 2026 we have that internally but uh it hasn't been submitted yet because

1:37:07Mass is still uh requesting some additional data. Uh but that's in the process and it's consistent with this

1:37:14September 2025 monitoring report as well. Um but that's all really was that

1:37:21compared to private prep before the facility opened?

1:37:27I don't have okay an exact number metric to give you on that. Um but [clears throat]

1:37:35with the traffic monitoring program, we are continuing to monitor um conditions out there currently and in the future.

1:37:43And you know if we re if we're exceeding certain thresholds based on mass and uh their

1:37:52conditions really uh then we have to go back and offer further mitigation. If there's any safety issues, you know, we're always looking at the crash state

1:37:59out there making says that do we get those reports to this office?

1:38:07Do we get those reports from we have we have requested us to give

1:38:15them to us. So they've supplied the traffic reports that they've done so far to the point

1:38:23but just recently done. So you just got through the chair. I have a question on the I read in there that that

1:38:31intersection is one of the top 200 in the state and that was prior to you

1:38:38even opening and that criteria was 2019 to 2022 [cough] [clears throat] which was in the middle

1:38:46of it COVID and it was still in the top 200 in that intersection of route 169 and 20. So I

1:38:55haven't heard discussed about that destination you're so proud of.

1:39:01Yeah. So, I believe that the HIPP destination, which is what they call it, it's a highway safety improvement program. They identify top crash

1:39:09locations in the state, and they have a map that you can go on online and look to see where they are, which ones are worsening. Some are head crashes, some

1:39:18are bike crashes, uh crash clusters, they call them. So, that one is uh in the top 200. That's part of uh our

1:39:27monitoring program. We look at that intersection and get crash data from the town uh and the police department.

1:39:34Um it's number 200 attitude. Yeah.

1:39:38But that was the year co there was no shipping going on.

1:39:42I do believe that it's based off of 2017 to 2021.

1:39:47They are a little and before [clears throat] LMG open as well. I know that doesn't put a whole lot, but it's it's kind of dangerous

1:39:54trucks filled with LMG. So, just putting that out there that

1:40:03church, have you guys seen the original site plan approval

1:40:10conditions that we put on the original and the traffic mitigation measures and the thresholds and all that? I had to.

1:40:17Yeah. Yeah. So, the original was to within a compliance standard of like 10%.

1:40:23And so in the 2026 Vanas report, it talks about the notion of 2.9% higher.

1:40:30But the revelation further beyond that is that kind of the telling story was that it was 82% lower in the morning uh

1:40:38peak traffic hours but higher in the evening by 35.4%.

1:40:43So the takeaway there is the 2.9% factor. It's within tolerance what was originally planned during the

1:40:50construction phase to take away after now that we're post and we're operating as uh less traffic in the morning but more traffic at the end of the day. I've

1:40:59been here about five times. Each time that I come I go and sit up at the cemetery there up on the hill and watch that intersection there at 20 and 169.

1:41:10Most of that traffic wants to go east and west uh through that intersection.

1:41:15And if if you look at like There's a graph coming up that's got like these turning arrows that Vanos does just to give you an indicator of like how

1:41:23traffic u traverses back in and through there. So what happens is is that a lot of this traffic is going east to west.

1:41:32Even coming here tonight, most of the traffic was headed back to the west and back up. So um the idea of taking the

1:41:41pressure off of that evening dispatch and make everything happen early in the day It helps stay within that tolerance of

1:41:49what's happening both for your town and for the client. So, I think it's good to push all that up early into the day.

1:41:56The the 1hour deliveries.

1:41:59Yeah. To keep them early in the day, keep everything keep everything out after 4:45.

1:42:06They can still get things out of the facility in that in that mid to late afternoon time frame. But I'm the one that asked them I asked them for two

1:42:13things. I said don't give this town a number that you cannot live by. So the

1:42:19700 number is came from me is two times what they told me. So they told me 350

1:42:27is what they intend to introduce this program as. I doubled it and said that's the ceiling. So they intend to operate with it. And the reason I told him that

1:42:36he said you need to be a people of integrity. If you tell this town this is what you're going to do, you need to live by it. And then the second thing I

1:42:42asked them to do is this uh dispatch uh windows. If you remember uh when I was

1:42:49here back in June, we had proposed five of these and I asked them to take two out because after I read the traffic

1:42:58reports, I realized the pressure really is on that evening shift. And then Curtis Mescus was here in June. Curtis

1:43:06uh had kind of influenced me in June saying he comes to work. He evidently lives down on 169 South. He comes up

1:43:13that way. He was the one that told me, he said, "There is some pressure on that 169 entrance." So that's why I suggested, "Let's take these two

1:43:22dispatch windows and just take them completely out of play." So when someone's online doing their order, they won't be given that option.

1:43:30Like I'm just afraid that it's just not going to make the computer.

1:43:33It's more complicated than that. So if it's a standard delivery, it's going to come out of the other fac. who are set up for final mile and they'll come in

1:43:42the in the typical ubiquitous blue Amazon vans. If it's part of the urgent uh flex program where there's a time

1:43:50sensitivity to that, then it's going to get put into this program and they'll hit the nearest window of when they can based on when the person is asking.

1:43:59So there'll be there'll be three times a day they could hit that. If if a young mom is ordering big form and misses it,

1:44:06it's going to come at the next early morning shift.

1:44:12Who decides what is an urgent item and what is not an urgent item? I don't know if there's a list for that because I I

1:44:20mean I I've used the flex service before and you know golf doll balls delivered

1:44:28at 4:00 in the morning. I wouldn't consider urgent but you know it doesn't seem like there's a it seems like if it's in stock that facility they'll deliver it.

1:44:38Was that the only package you ordered?

1:44:39Yes. Because sometime what I've what I've heard across the country is sometimes if there's a oneoff order like I order gel packs for money. It's a very specialty item.

1:44:49Most people don't order those. I only order that, nothing else. It happens to come the same.

1:44:54So, I think there's u there's items that go through the system that are oneoff that would be not part of the ordinary delivery route that may come through.

1:45:03So, what it seemed to me is that if it was at the facility that has the flex drivers, it could come the next morning if it was something that had to be shipped there and sent out.

1:45:14I would think again being a big facility like that most of the stuff would be in stock that everyone would go out and flex delivery if they have a chance.

1:45:24Okay.

1:45:25Do you how do you control the how is you someone's working as a flex driver are they actually told to go out one driveway or another and it monitored?

1:45:36That's a good question. So they take my work on the civil plans, let me back up a page.

1:45:43So what happens is is on the civil plans, I don't have a pointer, but um

1:45:51on on the civil plans that I sent to Mike Andre, you'll notice there's these little green arrows that go through the parking lot and show the drivers how we

1:45:59want them to come in or up to the building. And then always, you see these arrows going down. So they have to follow that route for safety purposes,

1:46:07but also the green arrows where they connect out to the nearest surface street. My work on the civil plans goes into their programmed app that's in

1:46:15their cars. So when they show up to make a delivery route, it tells them, "Hey, we're going to go deliver these 10 packages. Here's the route you're going to take." It tells them the route there

1:46:24to come on to that campus. That's why I pose this question about the front and back of the facility.

1:46:30I really do think that it could be an advantage to not bring them in one specific way over the other and let them come in from either or depending on if

1:46:39they're either coming from South Bridge or they're coming from Stillbridge.

1:46:42There could be an advantage to you by having it distributed across both

1:46:50through the chair. I was going to ask a couple of traffic questions. It always comes down to traffic and then maybe we

1:46:56can ask Mr. to weigh in also. So, one of the uh Mr. like one of the slides you

1:47:04had was the turning diagram with that and I think it showed the peaks AM and

1:47:10PM and what we were Yeah, thank you. So this week morning

1:47:17peak so this is the 26 this the March 2026 data. This is the same data from the monitoring.

1:47:25And so tell me again what is the morning peak

1:47:32uh existing and it it was like it was only 23% of the capacity or something.

1:47:40It was like 82 trips in the morning or something like that. What was that particular or coming in Amazon?

1:47:49Yeah. in the morning peak. I thought I thought Mr. Fleck mentioned it was like Oh, yeah. Yeah. Here it is. 80.

1:47:59Well, there there's two things. One is they're looking at the pre and post build. Yeah.

1:48:05So, it was better in the morning than as opposed to the evening. But if you want raw and better in the morning, it was like substantially 82% less. Yeah.

1:48:16And the number was what? Okay. Peak morning. Peak morning.

1:48:21I was looking through this also. I have to get on the phone with our traffic engineer.

1:48:28Uh the project uh was identified at approximately 53.8% lower on an average weekday.

1:48:36And then if you go to the raw data back here, you can actually [clears throat] go into the approximate car counts by the hour.

1:48:46But the the peak what was the peak morning summary? What was that number?

1:48:51I don't have the isn't it in the reporting? I thought it was here percentage less than I believe that's what he just said.

1:49:01The percentage less was 82.

1:49:03Yeah, we have the measured coming in the Amazon, but I don't think it's 82, right? So the

1:49:11count Mr. reflect was 82 for the peak morning hour or something for the traffic NS traffic report.

1:49:20Yeah, just 82 is a percentage, but you want the wrong numbers.

1:49:27Yeah, 82 was the percentage. I'm sorry to get into so much detail.

1:49:32This is a a point where I think the traffic study history. So September 2025 which was

1:49:39previous September 2025 was the date it was measured right. Yes. Yeah. Right.

1:49:45So in during the weekday morning there were 75 cars, seven trucks. So 82 vehicles.

1:49:51Uh and that's total entering an accident. [clears throat] Um yes compared to the projected traffic

1:50:00volumes from our [clears throat] I don't remember the year that the the traffic 7 came out for the Amazon

1:50:07but from the original trip generation that's the 82% less not 82% 82 is the count

1:50:17but it's also 82% less here so the projected traffic volume 455 vehicle trips compared to 82 measured in

1:50:24September and this turning count diagram is from what period this specific is from March of 206.

1:50:332026. Okay.

1:50:35And I [clears throat] I thought we were I was trying to I guess zone in on that 2025 the September

1:50:45date and maybe I misread it or I'm not as familiar as as you guys are with the

1:50:52traffic studies, but maybe Mr. Michelle can can help with clarifying that or if um

1:50:59is this a good spot to Yeah. Thank you.

1:51:10Okay. So, um obviously there's a relationship between what's built and

1:51:17what's being proposed, right? What's built is obligated to provide monitoring reports.

1:51:23you've just received two monitoring reports uh from March and September 2025.

1:51:31Uh we just received those as well, right? So we haven't been retained to do a full review of those, right? Um that

1:51:39may be in the cards, but I did have a chance to look at that data to understand where things sit. And I

1:51:47understand that this project, the uh traffic report for this facility in part relies on some of that information,

1:51:54right? So account information is being represented.

1:51:58You know, in fact, they've gone back out in June, no, I'm sorry, March of 2026, right?

1:52:04And counted and and I think the blind conditions are not all that different. Mhm.

1:52:09Um so before we comment on the facility impact itself um to your question about

1:52:19how the existing facility is functioning relative to the record documents and the original site plan the original site plan

1:52:26conditions right that all relates to the monitoring of course now I I was a bit confused by the

1:52:3482 vehicle trips as well um what's represent presented in the baseline traffic volume line volume information

1:52:42which is up on the screen there would suggest that during morning peak hours which is what's represented on the left

1:52:50side of that diagram that the total number of vehicles that are entering the facility and exiting the facility

1:52:57between the two driveways in combination is just under 500 vehicles right um I can't replicate the 82 vehicles

1:53:06that are represent presented in the moderate reports. And I'm not saying this necessarily incorrect. I'm just saying that um there's a disconnect. Um

1:53:15and uh I do understand there's a statement within the monitoring report uh from September that suggested that

1:53:22there was a shift change that would have the shift I believe earlier prior to the typical community peak hour. Mhm.

1:53:31Um that's something that was suggested during the peerreview process for that facility and that that memorialized is

1:53:39one of the potential mitigation actions in what's known as the section 61 finding.

1:53:45Right. So I think you know Amazon has taken the time to try to understand what they're generating and how it lines up

1:53:52to the record documents and have apparently made some attempt to try to shift that burden so to speak to an earlier hour.

1:54:00That said, [clears throat] um you know, we still need to understand why in in this report,

1:54:09which presumably is consistent with some of the data that was in the monitoring, the number of vehicles in the weekday morning peak hours is actually just under 500, not 82.

1:54:20Nowhere close to that.

1:54:21Right. So, so there's there's that question. Um now

1:54:28as it relates to the facility itself um we we also know that a substantial

1:54:35number of um the trips are actually oriented toward the route 169 driveway as opposed to 20 driveway. The premise

1:54:43of the signal was that it would meet a warrant which obligates that it you know accommodates at least a minimum amount of traffic in order to justify its use.

1:54:54um that seems to have flipped over over through 169 and as a result and I'm pretty sure what one of the monitoring

1:55:02reports indicates is that um particularly during an evening hour there's a substantial delay and a substantial queue that develops on that driveway.

1:55:12One of our recommendations that you know I think the applicant is working on is to try to better balance the trips between those two gateways.

1:55:24Um the we also want to understand um what effect that additional trip

1:55:33activity has had over the 21 169 drive uh intersection. Um in both of the

1:55:40monitoring reports I very carefully reviewed um it remains a high crash

1:55:46location. certainly above average. Um there's a a recommendation, a requirement to actually consider uh

1:55:55potential mitigation for locations like that that may have an above average crash experience. And I believe that's a good candidate for it.

1:56:05So in in both monitoring reports that were filed, there's no suggestion of what those might be. There's no detailed

1:56:14assessment of potential causal factors that relate to those crashes. There's a simply a reference back to a monitoring

1:56:22report that says it's above average, you know, u but we'll continue to look at it. So, we're suggesting that you need

1:56:30to do more than just kick it down down the road. You really need to understand what the causal factors are of the crashes. Do collision diagramming.

1:56:40identify potential ways in which um safety of the intersection can be implemented and and really that's tied

1:56:49to the larger facility as opposed to what's being approached now.

1:56:52[clears throat] So they are linked in that way, but it is an obligation of the u the larger facility to to take a closer look

1:57:00at that to suggest the issue. Um as it relates and and this is not in our review, but um there's this notion for

1:57:08the larger facility that based on the monitoring if signal warrants are met for the route 169 driveway that they would be implemented.

1:57:20My cursory review of those monitored reports suggests that there are at least four or five hours in a day at which those thresholds that would trigger the

1:57:28need for signal are met at 169 at 169. So we'd want to have a little more detail. Now that's subject to commentary on the monitoring reports.

1:57:38It doesn't show up in our commentary on what we've reviewed for the flux.

1:57:43Um and uh you know there there may be uh again ways through traffic management uh

1:57:51practices uh to to better manage not only the distribution of trips [clears throat] but perhaps even the time of day these

1:57:58impacts occur some of which has apparently been uh attempted at this point. Um those are our principal

1:58:05comments, right? But it's very much tied to what about the larger facility, right? It's kind of the gorilla in the room, right?

1:58:14And may I just add that in the I think it was a September 2025 traffic report

1:58:20from Vaness that satisfies their every year they have to do a traffic impact

1:58:26and assessment for the original site not the flex site but this will go on for five years forward and this is one of

1:58:35them September 25 and in the conditions that I mentioned it was this 10% threshold if the traffic volumes

1:58:44greater than 10% there should be mitigation actions taken which is a meeting among

1:58:52you know the town with the town what do we do about this with the Amazon with the operator themselves how are we going

1:58:59to mitigate this traffic um and one of those is the the PM evening peak trips

1:59:07were plus 35% over the build conditions so that right there triggers a mitigation action, let alone

1:59:16this has nothing to do with the this flex application like we need to get them in here and request a mitigation of traffic mitigation.

1:59:2535% though is within that is a subcomponent of the the overall traffic numbers hit within 2.9%.

1:59:33The subset data of that is the 35 up in the evening, 82 down in the morning, right?

1:59:39But the gross counts are within less than 3%.

1:59:42Right. But any one of those is going to trigger a mitigation activity.

1:59:48So not total but any any of those hitting that 10% threshold.

1:59:53Yeah. The 10% I mean impact is really measured [clears throat] as what happens during the highest combined cattle period of the day and that's when people experience the moderate delay.

2:00:04So you're correct. You know the daily numbers are 2.9%. It's the distribution of those trips during certain hours of

2:00:11the day that creates the so-called impact that is really central to the mitigation actions. So that could dictate the need

2:00:19for some safety related measure at 20 169. Uh it could potentially trigger the need for signal

2:00:28at 169. Um, as a point of reference, the signal warrants analysis for the 20 quarter

2:00:36was marginal at best in the filings, the state environmental filings. Um, usually you want to get threshold of at least 75

2:00:44vehicles an hour for an 8 hour period is um there are periods of the day when that may actually not occur even though

2:00:53it is in fact signalized. Whereas the 169 driveway has upwards of it's more than 200 vehicles an hour

2:01:02uh for you know at least 3 four hours a day and close to that number for the fifth hour certainly level of service I

2:01:12mean that that 169 driveway was going to be a secondary exit and it sounds like it's now more of a primary entry exit

2:01:20for for the employees which is strange yeah and I'm not sure why that's the case um you know I've been to the site a couple times and and

2:01:28my GPS would say, "Hey, um, you use Route 20." Uh, but, you know, to be fair, if I drop the pin on the

2:01:37northerly, uh, parking lot, it'll tell me to use Route 20.

2:01:42If I drop it on the southerntherly or easterly parking field, it'll say, "Take 169." So, it's it's it's pretty close, right?

2:01:50But given the queueing that happens here, um, you know, 10 to 15, I wouldn't want to be the 15th in line, right? I I

2:01:57probably want to use them quite yet and that's why I'm not quite understanding why that doesn't naturally shift that way.

2:02:05Uh but there wouldn't the employees dictate where what direction they come in and South Beach has a lot of apartments and these aren't super highpaying jobs.

2:02:14That's what I was This is kind of the um the approach that we taking that I mentioned earlier for South Bridge South.

2:02:24Yeah. So taking it right out and left in off of 169 and then all other traffic.

2:02:34And just to summarize then I think there are some uh thresholds that have been passed that

2:02:42would warrant mitigation activity certainly at least a meeting and a review. Keep in mind that this all of

2:02:50these traffic studies from Vaness that were part of the conditions of approval have not been reviewed by our traffic

2:02:58engineer. So first step is to get them reviewed by MDM and then this is going to trigger a threshold activity and I

2:03:07certainly wouldn't entertain any changes to that site plan at all that we have in

2:03:14place until those mitigations are are [clears throat] done. Certainly not looking at any uh changes to the use

2:03:22that would increase uh traffic. uh it would decrease levels of service and it would just serve to heighten the

2:03:31threshold impacts that how far out to those traffic studies go uh radius wise I mean do they go all the way out to

2:03:40driveways and 169 a couple of other intersections street

2:03:52didn't count the middle of the night There's a lot I come in late. So the traffic count that did that.

2:04:00Okay.

2:04:01I was just clarifying with Bob. I didn't realize that Bob's report here does not take in the calculus of these two reports. I thought they had access to that.

2:04:10And in fact, uh, Mr. Fletch, we had a hard time to even get the reports. I was looking for them and

2:04:18uh apparently they were filed with mass dot but I guess we didn't then ask them or maybe they were but

2:04:26that's why so that you know sure that you have anyway so that's so I think what you're saying is I think

2:04:35we need to have a DM analyze all the data instead of just the

2:04:41previously stepping a little bit more And then that is going to trigger a

2:04:47meeting for, you know, some mitigation activities.

2:04:52I think it's also important to note that I'm not sure about this one. I believe that we're still waiting for comments from Mass for this one. Definitely for

2:05:00the March one that we're soon to be submitting and we're also currently doing a September because we're doing two a year. So, we're currently working on the September one internally.

2:05:10Um, and that'll all be subject to DOT review. So if they look at this and say you're open to 10%, we need you to do X,

2:05:18Y, and Z, then we have to respond to those comments with either mitigation or, you know, some other form of

2:05:25response to address those issues. So they should be calling those out as well.

2:05:31Lot a lot of DS are really slow in their comment response like 69 months. Yeah.

2:05:37Is that it's not uncommon? So a March report it could be like over this fall. Yeah.

2:05:45Right. But you know what the focus of our review would be pretty holistic. It would circle back to the reference

2:05:52documents which we actually were privy to at the time that this was being proposed. We would look at uh the March

2:06:00and September final reports to the extent the March uh data gets

2:06:08formalized and submitted. you look at that as well um just to understand a trend. Um [clears throat] but you know I

2:06:15I think it consistently shows at least in my very cursory review of two reports

2:06:22that there are definitely at least two areas three to three aspects of potential radiation that should really

2:06:30be considered. Um it doesn't guarantee that it has to happen but it it's worth a good good look.

2:06:39as it [cough] as it relates to the facility itself. Um, you know, we we document this in our commentary. Uh,

2:06:46we're familiar with the so-called last mile delivery process that uses.

2:06:55There's a facility in Westboro that has now been fully functional for a couple years and we had the opportunity to go

2:07:02out and measure its performance and um, you know, our understanding of that operation was that there would be 4hour

2:07:11civilian time slots that that were assigned. Um there were projections that

2:07:18our firm in fact made at the time uh that have been exceeded uh you know and that that perhaps has more to do with

2:07:25the evolution of the flex program and how they how they operate. In this [clears throat] particular case, uh we

2:07:33just simply want to have clarification, very distinct clarification about uh while there may be 700 routes

2:07:40identified, there's a reference to, you know, uh deliveries occurring either over 1 hour period, a 2 hour period, a

2:07:48three-hour shift. Um that could result in multiple trips on each route. And

2:07:57we'd want to understand the mechanics of how that works because really what's being presented for estimated traffic is

2:08:04highly the theoretical. Um it's it's it's one of these. It's not based on the actual operating facility. U there's no

2:08:13hard and fast parameters around it that that would be enforceable necessarily.

2:08:17But what I do like and in what was [clears throat] represented uh is perhaps a phase roll out of the program where uh you start with a certain

2:08:26designated a cap if you will on on the number of routes that are served. You monitor it, you validate its operation and then you expand it from that point.

2:08:36So that could be a provision something that we could talk about that way. It's trust verify,

2:08:44right? And you've had some experience with flex and other towns that also part of the reason I suggest we do

2:08:52an annual, you know, annual revisiting of it. I think it's worth, you know, it's good for you. It's good for the client. Everybody comes back and get it again. We look at it.

2:09:04I mean, I'm hearing some pretty long delays maybe with the mass. What do you call it? A section 61 something like that.

2:09:13So, these might take six to n months sometimes in other parts of the country. That's

2:09:20what it takes.

2:09:25Can I mean it it sounds that is there um well this is this is both site plan

2:09:34modification open the hearing is there any is there any time limit that's what I'm curious about time limit to open the hearing and then

2:09:42the time limit decision after we close and there's a decision but we have uh there's no state if if

2:09:49I'm mistaken about that we can always just ask for an extension and then as long as Right. I think if the applicant asks for

2:09:58an extension, it it bypasses any of those constraints on 90 timing. Right.

2:10:03If we ask you then to continue this for 12 months and wait for

2:10:10us to get our MDM peer review on all the traffic studies that they get the SE

2:10:17section 61 do report in and have the applicant themselves here to entertain a

2:10:26mitigation conversation with the planning board.

2:10:30That's probably we're saying that once we open a public hearing, which we did today, we only have so long to make a decision.

2:10:38And otherwise, it's automatically doesn't sound like we're going to have all the information.

2:10:43I I I should just just add that that's generally not an issue because with special

2:10:50with special permit, it's discretionary and a legitimate reason for denial is insufficient information. So when you're

2:10:58ever at a deadline and you were to say to an applicant, well, are you willing to extend this timeline? If they say no, then the board would simply vote for

2:11:06denial for insufficient information. So generally, it's going to be an applicant's interest to extend deadlines. So we'll watch that.

2:11:14So pay attention, right? That's all. Yeah.

2:11:20So, you know, looking at this for a benefit for the So, Charlton needs to put up with the increase in traffic, the

2:11:27potential increase in traffic. What benefit comes out of Charlton for this couple of things. It's a good question.

2:11:36So there's additional jobs generation that is associated with this that fits a niche in the market that is people who

2:11:43are looking for very short windows of employment that fits their lifestyle.

2:11:47So that's certainly one and then the overall you know broader economics of what's happening with an operation of

2:11:55this size in your community. So you've got you know the trickle down of that as well.

2:12:04be more specific. Gas [laughter] the the fact that the invest that you

2:12:11know multiple hundreds of millions of dollars worth of investment and then the payroll associated with that goes all out into those homes and that has a

2:12:19trickle down effect into where they spend those dollars in their localized economy. So it creates a trickle down effect in the local economy itself. It's

2:12:28basically the business itself being there.

2:12:32Yeah. The business being there, pouring into the workforce that's spending those dollars in your local businesses.

2:12:40Thank you. Yeah.

2:12:43And and I I would just, you know, add for your own benefit that like the town that I come from is a fraction of the

2:12:50size of Charleston. I'm headed back there at the end of September for a 40th reunion. They often ask me for like

2:12:58advice on topics like this. So like you have to grow your way into the future.

2:13:05So like there is no silver bullet. It takes time and patience and discipline.

2:13:11When I sat up at the cemetery uh and overlooked that intersection down there.

2:13:16Um to me it was a great insight to like localized behavior, the directions that people are coming and going. I did it three three different times the day. the

2:13:24different times that I was here. I spread that out just to compare. There's a lot to be said for just inspecting that and then looking at through a lens

2:13:33in your eyes of like how to grow your way into the future by looking at what's happening in your community because a lot of that traffic and and that's not

2:13:42even taking into account what's happening out on the toll road. The toll road backs up. It could be worse, right?

2:13:48So, a lot of your traffic is traversing through your your town east to west. You got a lot going on there, but you have to hurry the way into the future.

2:13:56I hear complaints that the uh the back roads are taking a blunt because everyone's avoiding route.

2:14:04They find the secret fast.

2:14:06So, yep. They're going down podunk north road to go to Stafford's crazy mason

2:14:14shooting over 395 more. So, Oxford too. Yeah. It just doesn't affect Route 20.

2:14:22our whole town. We can't ride bikes.

2:14:26There's a physician up the street that rides his bike to work. I Yes.

2:14:33So, it it does affect I mean, I understand the traffic counts, but what it does to us as a community, it's like people get mad that they have to take a different route and they lie.

2:14:45I got passed on Oscar Road. Do you know Oscar Road? Um, but on the other side is that nobody wants our taxes to go up, right, either.

2:14:56So, it's that balance of what we settle for.

2:14:59So, if this adds to it, will we get more taxes? And when do we stop? When is this?

2:15:06I mean, we get the tax increase for the assessment, right? Because that's only a small improvement, but still.

2:15:13Um, but I'm just saying we rate is actually very low.

2:15:20Wait, we're very very lucky and there's only two pounds that are lower than us.

2:15:23Okay. So, we we tried to be balanced in our decision making to be to protect the town and to also be fair. So, everybody's safe and

2:15:32through the chair. Um I now if we were to say no to this

2:15:40um what position would that place? In other words, what would this corporation do about that situation? What do you do

2:15:49when the town says no, you can't institute this part? What would that be?

2:15:54They spent a lot of money to get to this. So, I don't know the answer to that. I know that they would not be happy.

2:16:03What I'm I guess what I'm asking is what position are we in when when this large corporation basically is depending upon

2:16:11us to say yes. That's the position that I feel in bas it's based on, you know, you have a

2:16:19board of people that know the town and balanced in their decision making and it you know every set of deals.

2:16:28I I think we still need more information. Yeah.

2:16:32And we don't I mean you talk about mitigating factors and everything else and there's um we don't have all the information in

2:16:40front of us. I mean changing the way the lights are working you know that could make a huge difference.

2:16:48Katie Brook pinch point.

2:16:50The additional information certainly would be very helpful to us. I don't I don't disagree, but I think it'd be wise um to take a 12 month continuence I

2:16:59think would be u burdensome on the client to hear that. I'd like to propose maybe a way that we could allow for vote

2:17:08to happen time to continue to collect data, a way to work towards a point at which we'd have an agreeable way that we

2:17:15could introduce starting it, but putting a cap on that and a way to continue to come back and reanalyze it. So that way that the client doesn't have to wait a

2:17:24full 12 months yet we can see that it would be good to get more information in, understand some of these other components that might drive, you know, additional wisdom into what can be done.

2:17:35I also think a lot of questions will be answered once we respond to the comments from MDM as well.

2:17:42Do we want to um push out a month from now?

2:17:48Will those comments be in? Do we think we'll have the mass DOT report by then?

2:17:53I can't promise the mass one, but I can assure that the comments for this project will be in a month out is u correct. October 7th.

2:18:04So thinking October 21st or October 7th. 7th is booking up.

2:18:11I said 7th booking up kind of with this in mind. I am likely to be I could do the seventh. I could do the I have an agent parent situation that I

2:18:20have to tend to the last two weeks of October but the early part of October.

2:18:24Okay. I mean, I think the other uh I like the direction, but I think we also need to hear from the operator of the

2:18:32facility who will come in before us and get on an agenda before we I can bring I can bring

2:18:41So, why don't we do that for us? Maybe have them come in on the Senate and then we can discuss both issues.

2:18:47Yeah, maybe we'll have more information than you available. Will well will that give

2:18:54you enough time to perform your review of of at least I think three traffic.

2:18:59Yeah. So assuming assuming that we get retained to do that review I can have the review done within a 3we window.

2:19:06So uh and we could share that with you and and like find with that could serve as a discussion.

2:19:16Madam chair uh if they'll just bring me to two points that I bring up. So the retainer um

2:19:23for NDM. The quote that we got from you folks was for uh 98,000 lumpsum for the

2:19:31review of post occupancy traffic monitoring and finding and then uh plus an additional 3,000 on call budgeting covering up to 12 hours

2:19:39hearing attendance and review applicants responses. So if the board would want to authorize um we do that.

2:19:48Yep. Of course it's called policy anyway. Yep.

2:19:52Excellent. So that that that gets passed pass pass pass

2:19:55pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass

2:19:57Yes. Yep. That would be uh both the applicant as well as I would recommend uh a $4,000 retainer for legal service

2:20:05as well for KP Law would be to recommend kind of upfront for both the board and for the applicant that we would want to have legal counseling on this.

2:20:15So was 98 MDM and 4,000 legal. what you're saying.

2:20:19Uh it was uh 98 and three uh for MDM and then 4,000.

2:20:28So that's what 12 uh 12,800 total form and that that scope for MDM included was

2:20:37it a March 2025, a September 202 and a March 2026.

2:20:43We could incorporate the if the March 2026 data report comes in, we can incorporate under the same umbrella.

2:20:51Okay. For all of those.

2:20:53Yeah, that would be I I I'm expecting that the March uh report would not look much different than the September report.

2:21:09to continue this.

2:21:13[clears throat and cough]

2:21:15I'll make a motion to consent that continue uh to the transportation peer review and Amazon 53

2:21:24delivery to October 7th.

2:21:30All in favor? I I thank you for your presentation.

2:21:36Thank you very much. Now, where are you playing in from?

2:21:43Uh, I live just north of Cincinnati.

2:21:47Ground stop on the way out here down in DC because of all the storms.

2:21:53I used to live in um Oxford, Ohio for a little bit and I worked at the uh Texas Roadhouse in Hamilton, Ohio. Okay. 30 minutes north of that. Okay.

2:22:04Were you up near Dayton?

2:22:07Yeah. Yeah. My favorite running around is from Hamilton along the river there. Yep.

2:22:16I'm with you. I am South. All right. Good.

2:22:22for you and for Jane. I've got some additional resources here.

2:22:28Thank you all. Thank you. Thanks.

2:22:41March 26.

2:22:45She's looking at for Thank you.

2:22:59You don't have to be near Massachusett.

2:23:03Mike Andre he he said it's hard to see the plans. He had asked for a set of civil.

2:23:17So this set right here is for Mike.

2:23:21And then everything this wall right here is what they

2:23:33changed

2:23:50and to that one and then two nothing.

2:23:58Yeah. So this

2:24:07before I realized it was ridiculous to go walking around. I'm just used to doing that, you know, wherever I go.

2:24:18And then I found out that you cannot revision CVS

2:24:31when you're if you take a bus off there, you can cross legally cross

2:24:38over towards cross to get over.

2:24:44Do we have all this digitally or just I can send you all sort of and those are easy fixes if you ask me traffic.

2:24:59No, I don't know. I've not been there.

2:25:02It's it's a little kind of hole in the wall place. No windows.

2:25:17We let the state.

2:25:26All right. Wait, let's chat about that more later. I apologize.

2:25:35Sorry, Jane, for the minute. I do want to say that I love coming here. This did you catch all that? This part of the country is absolutely wonderful.

2:25:46We like it. We like it. Um this this is the young fellow sitting next to me.

2:25:51Zach, you want to hold he's from this part of the country. Yeah.

2:25:57If I take it back to Thanks again. All right.

2:26:08Okay. So, what's a public meeting as opposed to a public hearing?

2:26:12Uh, just uh public hearings all have to be advertised in the paper and it's a specific thing that you're addressing

2:26:20where a public meeting public hearings happen in the public meeting. A public meeting is just a meeting that's open to the public.

2:26:28So, public any decision we make or discussion leads to just transparency purposes.

2:26:34recorded in the minutes. Um, anything we I see

2:26:43you came back for it.

2:26:50Uh, so we have the public meeting section, the Jenning Road extension. Uh, they have not come

2:26:58to us with what they need for the bond reduction. So, we're taking recommend take no action on that, but uh we do

2:27:07recommend that you do the uh annual approval extension request for the subdivision. When are they extending it to?

2:27:14Uh I believe one year. I don't know what that date certain is. J, do you have that? 9:15 2027.

2:27:23There it is. 9:15. Make a motion to extend uh the Jennings Road extension subdivision annual approval till September 15, 2027.

2:27:34All in favor?

2:27:35I have the housing production.

2:27:48Oh, yes. It's not yet. It's the housing production.

2:27:54So, we need to vote to um we're supposed to get a draft. So, we can potentially ask

2:28:01for changes or um vote for it as is or and discuss whatever problems. We have

2:28:08to either vote to approve it to accept it or to not. So, um I just open it up

2:28:16to just have a discussion on what what people thought about. And again, these are just things that I threw out because

2:28:24I I did. Um, but whatever else anybody wants to bring up, this doesn't have to be the whole discussion. So, this just happens to be what I put together.

2:28:34I thought it was a pretty interesting document to read. There was a lot of information in the Sometimes you're like, "Wow,

2:28:42you know, you definitely have to sometimes you just have to look at it a different way." You kind of turn your head a little bit and I I

2:28:50still don't quite understand how they look at that affordable stock and say that we have this many homes. We get

2:28:58some other rental units that would probably fall within that affordable range that aren't being counted because they're not

2:29:06because they're not, you know, filed as being available. There are a

2:29:12lot of over like overlap meanings a lot of um um even even around

2:29:20the lake there are some of those small places. So, how do we get those in the count? I guess to make it, you know, that is a really good question.

2:29:28The honest number of what's available in town for affordable housing?

2:29:33Like I I rent my other whole single family housing and it is cons based on like square footage like it's affordable based on the amount of bedrooms and everything.

2:29:41If you look at the numbers, there's an 80% what's that that threshold? 80% of the going price. So, it's it's onethird of the area median income.

2:29:53Yeah, I mean there were numbers in the 80% that issue of having a few do

2:30:01is like that or just register and if you feel registered or don't register is pretty complicated.

2:30:09hardly any state if you uh something just went through one of those plan the account the planners emails that we get and the

2:30:18number of towns that don't have it I think like a hundred have it 200 for example has a lot of apartments but I

2:30:27bet you a lot of them are I mean the [cough] it might be lower price maybe the quality stuff or whatever but they actually t into their numbers

2:30:36that's I don't know Southbridge had was like at 80% of what they needed.

2:30:41Selfbridgeidge had we're we're less than 10%. We're at like I have a three family in Salbridge and I and it's they're four bedrooms, right?

2:30:50It's it's um a three family and the tenants have been there for 15 years. So, we've never really raised that rent.

2:30:57They all pay under $1,000. I know I could be getting $2,000. Are they factor numbers?

2:31:02Probably not. No one knows what I because it's not registered anywhere.

2:31:06So, so I'm like in Charleston, how many how many things are considered under market value?

2:31:14So maybe we need to market it that way and get people to start registering their houses that they're already there advantage of doing that you know

2:31:21because do they show the income on there like how how does I mean I don't know what we don't need to reinvent this wheel though because I mean we have some

2:31:30consultants helping us don't sell plan that would be a great question to ask them

2:31:36what is I guess that's question is is I like the plan I think I understand the And there's some things that I'm confused

2:31:45about on on how we get there cuz I think we're a lot better off than what those numbers show.

2:31:51So I've been asking like what this means like does this does is this so we have to do this to even apply for certain grants. So I

2:31:59understand we have to do this as a part of a process. It's necessary like we need to do the you know um a recreation

2:32:07open space plan because we can apply for grants. So, so that's are we doing this because it's like hey consultant just

2:32:15give us something that we accepted in town and now we can apply for grants or is this something that when we are are

2:32:23making decisions in this town like the planning board do we have to right and like the master plan because you're supposed to be making decisions changing

2:32:32bylaws changing you know policies whatever to to to be in line with the master plan Is this and that's my I

2:32:40don't know the answer to that. Do we now take the housing plan and does that is it as important as sort of impose that on top of the the master

2:32:49plan or is this the attachment a um because I'm telling you that on the master plan it would not

2:32:55you know 100% beyond lying I it's but they had actionable steps to take

2:33:02from the housing plan on how to implement this and I do not like that they keep on saying pursue adoption in here because

2:33:12I'm I'm happy with consider adoption or or research further, but yeah, does this mean now if something comes up

2:33:20with a prop or with or the project in front of us and they're saying you're a housing plan and said you're pursuing, you know, like why aren't you pursuing this adoption? I just

2:33:28Well, isn't it too if we don't have the recommend?

2:33:35So, it's their way of going, well, you're not there, so you we're we're going to make you take it with 40B. Isn't it just kind of just stay?

2:33:42I mean, I never I never really insurance plan.

2:33:46I never really worry about that. We're we're very we're we're not going to be thrown with with a you know, a a 200

2:33:54project, you know, housing with 200 apartments because we just don't have the facil we just don't have the infrastructure to be able to do that. So, um, go to room.

2:34:04I I would argue that one because I know, um, sandwich right now is is getting a 40B. It's

2:34:13say it's 241 units. Um, they do not have town sewer. They do have town water, but that probably wouldn't have stopped them

2:34:22building their own treatment plant and recharging, low nitrogen plant, recharging, and also putting in a I

2:34:31think it's maybe 5 to 8 megawatt solar farm to help power

2:34:39and and fund the sewage treatment. So there's creative ways to get it done without having sewers.

2:34:47We have the land people I think will happen to us not unless it all gets taken up by

2:34:55solar. should have just said by and if we say no to some companies they may open up a data center instead

2:35:03right so I mean I you can't say never never you can't say no I know it's a few have been proposed

2:35:10within the last couple of years I mean if 200 even a 100 that doesn't mean that the person it's over that threshold based on our calculation

2:35:19yeah if we have 5,000 that number was off in there I think I sent an email on it In two places they said they count a

2:35:27number of households. So I was confused because I use that when I divide out how many megawatts we have

2:35:34versus the houses. So I went when they're doing the house counts. I noticed that thought I must I misread something at

2:35:42some point 10% of that.

2:35:45So 500 and Oh we only need to make improvement of a couple of percent.

2:35:54I just want to say just get for effort.

2:35:56Even even though we had we had the one down, 24 to go, right?

2:36:02It's we're not if we're not stonewalling, we're in a better situation. [clears throat] Yeah. We're not against it. Yeah.

2:36:09No, but I I am against spending money and time to do reports to have the state say, "Oh, you went and did all that work

2:36:18for zoning and now we're going to say we did what we were supposed to do." and then they changed the rules. So, is that

2:36:25going to happen again? But not with this, but what we need to accomplish is we need to

2:36:34be we need to either approve this plan or not. And I don't think I think we don't I think it goes in terms of the town meeting, right? It goes

2:36:41I I I don't think so. I think it just gets approved by the planning and the board approve the board of selectment. I don't think it's binding. I think it's

2:36:49you're acknowledging you're acknowledging [clears throat] to the state. Yes, we know what we need to do and we're going to try to get there. We have a plan.

2:36:57I would be happy that the pursue adoption that terminology I'd be I'd

2:37:03really like it to be changed to evaluate potential adoption.

2:37:09Consider that I like that. Yep.

2:37:12Right. Um because pursue I mean that's pretty like that means we got to go change our zoning and do an overlay district.

2:37:20We're gonna do whatever we can to get there. Right. So is that the only thing you saw?

2:37:24That's that's my big thing on all of these like um um So did you notice the uh one spot on

2:37:33shortterm rentals under 30 days? They suggest because we have such a housing

2:37:40shortage that that is adding to the housing shortage.

2:37:46Short-term rentals are taking houses off the market. There's a housing shortage.

2:37:50So, they did say um if it's an owner occupied home renting

2:37:57rooms, we don't we couldn't police that anyway, but that would be almost helps people stay in their home.

2:38:07Uh somebody He's on a fixed income, they have an extra room. So, I can totally understand that. But having corporations and people that live out of state buy up

2:38:16our housing inventory to rent them as they don't pay hotel tax, they're saying that we should do a study at it. That's what they're saying. Like

2:38:25on the short term, it's reasonable to understand what's you [clears throat] know I like support the study.

2:38:31Yeah. How many STRs does how many does Chelton actually have? And is there evidence of really real evidence of a problem?

2:38:39Um, yeah, it's not a problem, but it does take 10 houses or whatever the assessor said they if we make any regulation,

2:38:46[clears throat] we should, you know, we should respond like we shouldn't we should respond to a a demonstrated condition or a potential problem. We

2:38:54should Yeah, they're not inspected by the board of health. They're septics. The one on this particular one on Cranberry Meadow

2:39:02had septic odor and the house is being marketed actively marketed as a four bedroomedroom on a

2:39:12small septic. You know what it's like at Cranberry Meadow.

2:39:14It's a twobedroom on the assess field card and the homeowner lives in Rhode Island. So it's against our bylaw. It's against the bylaw.

2:39:23First of all, that's right. I mean, rent it by the month. There's nothing that says you can't rent them by the month, but it's

2:39:29these overnight and the big parties and the septics and they're not paying their taxes and the board of health hasn't inspected into the board of health, right?

2:39:41Yeah, I the I talked someone told me about this and I dove in and I won't be doing that again. There is a form to

2:39:49fill out if you think there's somebody violating a zoning because I had to wait three months for a lot of work on me.

2:39:59So there is a form now or there is there is now after my private complaint not through mostly.

2:40:06So Paty are you saying you want to approve this but with some please change this and then we'll approve it.

2:40:14My biggest issue is that person like they say it over and over. So I would like that to know to like again all right more research um and I I mean I went

2:40:23like I went through each I just went through their their like they have under that strategy section that's where I really focus on

2:40:30this is the strategy this is what we're saying we're going to do like it it almost commits us I just don't want to commit us to anything. Um, so, um,

2:40:39all right, let's go back to the the two, what were their first names, the two same first names, and ask them to change

2:40:47the So, you can approve it with those changes.

2:40:51Yeah. Word Smith it and then we'll approve it. And I don't think like that like any of these things were I guess it was it was just more like making

2:41:00everything sort of a maybe versus red kind of I expect that may should show. Yes.

2:41:08Who was on the committee too?

2:41:10It says Chelton Housing Production Plan Committee. Who was it? What are four people?

2:41:15There was no there was a list of like Well, they didn't list the names, but they said there was 20 and they broke them down in ages and so many between this age, somebody between that age.

2:41:23No names. I didn't think there were no names. No names. Break broken down into ages. Homeowners, renters, who was on the

2:41:32And most of this looks like four people rent, 27 owned, you know.

2:41:36Yeah, most of them were above 60. So, no one on this board was there. I didn't even know it happened.

2:41:43Nope. Didn't either.

2:41:45Just like I'm on the Did you You didn't know either. EDC didn't No one represent.

2:41:51Maybe somebody from EDC was on it. I don't remember. I think they reached out to realtors. So maybe somebody in EDC

2:41:59um you know I didn't I'm on the recreation commission. I didn't know we did a recreation space. I did not know.

2:42:05Didn't know. They were surprised that I that people were asking me about it. I was like, why?

2:42:11So, after this after we get the changes and and we approve it, um we need to start looking at

2:42:19supporting some of these things or or you know, bylaw changes, bylaw changes or, you know, talk to

2:42:27um community preservation funds. I'm not sure the town would ever go for that, but it's it's not really a bad thing

2:42:35considering the state matches whatever we put in, you know. So it's a good way to build a big

2:42:44land you see a lot of stuff people like you know it might solve some problems the problem is it raises everybody's

2:42:51taxes but yeah 50% one of the referendum questions coming in November is um the state is

2:43:01going to be able to say that single family homes get automatically approved on lots of 5,000

2:43:10as long as you have public water and sew it though.

2:43:13Oh, is that Well, I think as long as your septic can handle it, too.

2:43:16Yeah. So, you have to get and your your your water with the amount of bedroom.

2:43:21So, change, but imagine look at what we have for sizes of lots now. Imagine putting houses on 5,000, you know, just 5,000 ft.

2:43:30So, um that'll be on the ballot. So that's a physical requirement and then you don't need uh the variances

2:43:38go away and that would mean people could come back with all of their ANRs or anything else and split it up. Um, so that's why

2:43:46I can't find I was I wanted to see I think that's like I was reading it and it seems like they need to have public.

2:43:53It doesn't say septic it to me when I read it and again we might need to ask one of the land attorneys if that's true that it had to

2:44:02have public water instant. And I thought it it specifically says that but I'm like did I read it wrong?

2:44:11Yeah.

2:44:11Um because true because you couldn't except that you don't have a 5,000 foot lot,000 foot home.

2:44:20Yeah, you're probably right.

2:44:22So that's that's I thought I read on that. So I don't I and it's both public water and sewer too.

2:44:29So we'd only have very it would only be the main street, right? Like downtown here that would be I have another question on you though.

2:44:39Um, is this correct? Since 2002, the public school systems student enrollment has steadily declined by 23%.

2:44:48Yes, absolutely.

2:44:49So, but does that take into account how we allow uh school choice? We put out so many.

2:44:55So, that maybe maybe that's why they did the school choice back then to fill the classroom and they got the

2:45:024,000 a lot smaller classes. I I keep on saying shut down the elementary school and put it in the her and they're like,

2:45:11"Oh, no. We can't provide it." Oh. So, but that does does that take into account all the students we accepted through school choice?

2:45:20Cuz my kids went to St. John's and I got mad that they were selling my slots and the kids weren't benefiting from maybe a smaller class size.

2:45:28They were like, "Oh, let's We're only at We're only at Okay.

2:45:34Yeah, I read that. It's not just childhood. It's the whole entire country. I mean, especially now I mean in our state

2:45:44people are having not um can't blame.

2:45:48So can't can we go back on task? Yeah.

2:45:54Um so I'd like to get home at sometime to be here salary. either way. Yeah.

2:46:07Um, so I I I'm okay with making some changes if if if you want to make those changes.

2:46:12I think we need to approve this at some point. So, um, the wording in it doesn't I really don't think it and whatever else anybody else has for

2:46:20comments in here, too. I just I really just don't want to commit us to anything just in case it ever gets I don't think this is a committing document. I think this is this is just a

2:46:28stake in the ground saying, "Hey, we'll give it a try. and he's going to come out and go, "We're going to write you a D because you didn't do this, this, and this."

2:46:36So, I'm thinking that we're going to get like some sort of like, you know, how we have those white white paper studies they do on the town and like are they they're not following the housing plan.

2:46:46Yeah. Well, so can we just to maybe execute this?

2:46:51Can we send this uh and and planner types this? [clears throat] I just want to say that I I'll verbally do

2:46:59my notes often and it puts my things that come out of my mouth into the writing and I didn't quite read all

2:47:08[laughter] it. So Oh, here you're yelling at your kid right here.

2:47:13Um so yeah, so I'll sit here and I'll I'll have it I'll I'll read it and they'll

2:47:20set they'll Yeah. So, we just need to make sure that we don't put anything like that that like really says anything really stupid. Um, okay.

2:47:31Like I said, I mean just changing pursuant adoption to to something less committed stuff and just this just my

2:47:38thought whether everybody agrees with this question just for your do I'm going to meet with the folks from CRPC.

2:47:51uh where the the regional planning award is um to talk about this you need next week I can show this to them see hey can

2:48:01you guys what can you incorporate here while keeping it compliant with the state and if it's simple enough we can

2:48:09just do that and set that up so that we can look at it we'll do a little next next meeting if it ends up being you know more a

2:48:17little more controversial on their end I can invite them to our meeting in two weeks weeks and then we'd kind of do a final hatch out and take a boat um like that if you guys like it that way.

2:48:26That sounds good. Okay, sounds good.

2:48:28Wonderful. I will do that. And I would just like probably anything in the in here is decent, but anything that

2:48:36um that's I wouldn't Yeah, I wouldn't let I would I would kind of go through that. And I I sit you Yeah. electronically. So um

2:48:45anything [clears throat] in the back, I would just make sure that I'm not saying anything real video. I'm sure it's fine.

2:48:55Okay.

2:48:55So, when you meet with Smart RPC, do they come here or do you go there? And is it is it like we get so many hours a month? Is that how it works or are they just supporting this?

2:49:04Right now, they're just supporting this.

2:49:06Uh I beyond that probably, but I don't know.

2:49:09We just get an email. I think we get an email about credit hours or something. I I do have we do have Yeah.

2:49:18And and just going to the quarter remaining. Who's who's on the 12th?

2:49:27That's Bob. Bob's been going.

2:49:31But we can go. We can go if we want to, right? Good.

2:49:34I signed up for And you have a planner update?

2:49:43Oh, by the way, staff report your communication.

2:49:47Right on. Excellent. Fantastic. Glad you like it. I want to try to make that a little bit more standard with especially with

2:49:54Don't expect those for uh frontage watch, but uh for anything more common the bar high.

2:50:02We expect that at every at all.

2:50:06Oh yeah, absolutely. It uh it it helps uh it does a great job with the formatting. That's the big thing. It's for

2:50:13and you got to review it just to make sure it's got everything that you expected to be in there. the the the first AI draft that it did. Like I I kept the formatting, but all the content

2:50:21was like none of this. I can't use any [laughter] of this. But I like the way it's I like the way it landed out. It did a great job with that. Who was that? What program?

2:50:30Uh I use Claw. Yep.

2:50:31Uh that's the one that I like. Um and probably my favorite.

2:50:37Yeah, it's it's simple, easy, uh very powerful. A lot of stuff you can do with that. Um so I'm a big fan of that one.

2:50:46um for the planning director report.

2:50:48Just two things I wanted to update you guys on. Number one is uh the intervenor grant. Uh so for part of the

2:50:57BAS uh energy storage, there's a program that we can apply for. It's called intervener fund. So essentially, it can

2:51:05give us up to $150,000 as a municipality to um hire legal counsel to help

2:51:13navigate the uh the best program. To be eligible, you either have to be a town with a population under 7500, which we

2:51:20are not, uh, or you have to have some type of financial hardship. And it looks like the financial hardship that we could use is we only have a static

2:51:29amount of money in our annual budget for um, legal funds every year. And something like the best would have

2:51:37effectively wiped that out. Y. Um so that's going to be uh the angle as well as talking about our previous experience

2:51:47with um energy uh facilities with a uh uh uh the gas station leak

2:51:56that contaminated our water for so many years.

2:51:59This being kind of a unique concern to Charlton selfish landfill contamination.

2:52:04Yeah. So, we have um I have a draft uh ready to go for it, but we have to wait until they file and then we can file. Uh

2:52:12but as soon as they can't do it before can't do it before, but once they do it, then that opens the window. So, as soon as the window open, we'll be right.

2:52:19So, you think we'll get some even though most of that money is going to like environmental justice communities. No, I don't. We're going to get a penny.

2:52:26We have a high. That's all right. Let's see.

2:52:30EPF might as well. They want to apply in October. I think ESA wants to make an application. ESA.

2:52:38When I asked the time frame on one of the meetings, they want to finish the community benefit

2:52:45plan, not an agreement, the plan, sometime then.

2:52:50And I asked when the packet was going in. Well, 2027. I was like, well, that's only, it's pretty correct. You said in that

2:52:57first quarter, but you're right. If But that Community impact agreement is not legally.

2:53:06I'm sorry I threw that under you. You can't make it be.

2:53:10I think that I thought I thought there was I thought there was there was another way to make it that you could actually say fine, we'll support it, but we want it more.

2:53:22Well, it goes to the FSB and they decide. But I even said it in multiple meetings and I did it in writers and

2:53:30Why be we need it before construction because otherwise there's no leverage.

2:53:35So it it can be incorporated. It's something where the applicant does need

2:53:42to agree to it much like you know where can we compel somebody to make 20% of their units affordable. If they agree to

2:53:50it, we don't have to worry now. Well, maybe they'll agree to it, but the state does not mandate it.

2:53:57Legally binding agreement upfront, they need to.

2:54:01It needs to be like you need to get our lawy the lawyers together saying we both agree to this, but it's they're taking a risk that their buyer won't want it. But

2:54:10if they truly care about the talent, we know they do. I mean, I'm saying on record, we know that they love childhood. How many times have they they

2:54:16like enjoy talking to people Dunkin Donut gift cards? Um, right. Like if they do love us, then they will make

2:54:25a commitment and even if it means making a little bit less money to keep us safe.

2:54:30We'll see if that if if if you know they're they're just saying that or they really are going to do that. And we're not we're not picking on them.

2:54:38This is the first of many. And if we let this go through without a signed agreement, without the strictest, you

2:54:46know, that 855 fire code is only the the baseline. We can be stricter. We can board of health can be stricter. They

2:54:54can do, you know, insist on protecting the groundwater. This is the first of many. So if we don't do something now

2:55:03and and October one is the date that we have to have um a consolidated permit

2:55:11available if we say no we go on but there's a lot and a host agreement they

2:55:18don't even have to do host agreements so we're not in the driver's seat so unfortunately but we can make some noise

2:55:25but I'm not sure like who who's sitting there and doing that and having that in having that discussion like who who is

2:55:33in the room right now having that discussion that says all right we know this is happening let's get let's get everybody on board and get our lawyers together and make something I don't

2:55:41think that this I'm not sure there isn't no one's driving well the point person because Randy was

2:55:50out so everything is supposed to go to him do you know the name of that position that kind of you know the energy the this somebody

2:56:00who it's in the town was supposed to be the local governing official is Andrew

2:56:08right and he was the one that ultimately things are supposed to go through so he was doing he took that position because we we didn't have a planner to do that

2:56:15position because it's normally the I can tell you the planning board is taking the center stage on all of this right now so then so um

2:56:23other other groups are just citizen committees yeah so who needs to be in the who needs to be in that room who needs to we need

2:56:31so there needs let's who's who's working on a an agreement yeah I the I would think that the board of selectment

2:56:40they they are having a couple of community benefit meetings what is coming up next week community benefit is something

2:56:48and it's volunteers people just coming in right no one's really driving it but and they're throwing out ideas so

2:56:55they're just all trying to get things but it's fire department's talking. Yeah, I everybody's on different pages.

2:57:02Everybody's No, there's not enough like I um and I know we have we have the the people that they selected to be on their that committee thing too.

2:57:11Um can we um can maybe I need to meet the chair.

2:57:18Remember we you and I had a meeting meet with knows what's going on. I you know you don't know it's not happening.

2:57:26Yeah. That's why I'm there's there's things that more than a part-time effort. That's not need to be like a staff.

2:57:32I would I would think that somebody in in in the administrative's office is is working on putting things together.

2:57:39But you're also working on a thousand other things. I mean, yeah, I've been I've been working with Vander on this. He is currently the the point

2:57:46person on this. And again, why I took the the um I'm not sure this the application because it's something that I'm not sure there's been a serious discussion.

2:57:54He took the application. There is No, no, I've got the uh intervenor fund applications because that would be

2:58:00Andrew doing that, but it's like have a million other things. We all everybody has a lot of opinions on what

2:58:08we're doing here, but I don't think we got to some decision to be a team.

2:58:12Can we can the planning board is it the planning board and the select board meet together? Like how does that work? Do we do I go meet with the chair and say

2:58:20well I think we can have we can have our planning director speak with pot with

2:58:24pot with pot with pot with pot with pot

2:58:32big enough to be like a staff person because we only need whatever a couple of times part

2:58:40all of our staff you understand only works with the fle boy and it only works for us so at the end of the day we're instruing them what to do we're voting

2:58:48on on initiatives on so it's it's great that we have we have capable staff but at the end of the day they have to do it at home

2:58:57organization I wasn't thinking about that right because we and and if they're pursuing a certain thing they have to

2:59:04pursue what at least our two boards are saying to pursue whether [clears throat] we're going to fight tooth and nail or we're going to come up with an agreement

2:59:12or we're going to get our lawyers to bash out we need to kind of determine what what's going to happen there Um let's um well one thing that they at the

2:59:21last I think it was at it was a leader at the one of the town hall on one of the fire meetings they said they went to some meeting and

2:59:29I think it was an environmental justice meeting and they said that that woman

2:59:36you were there and then yes and some money was discussed for senior center like there was like money was talked about

2:59:44at that meeting. No, this was more just there was a bunch of uh DPW DPU from the

2:59:52state and a couple of environmental justice department employees. I think they all Yeah.

2:59:58And uh Jonathan was there from ESA and a couple me and Pat Stockwell and they

3:00:05were just checking in to make sure that ESA knew all of the requirements. So you have to have a checklist that documents

3:00:13all of this stuff and these are the dates you have to meet to understand and the final. So, it's kind of a formal if

3:00:21you have any questions ask us type of meeting now, right?

3:00:26They haven't checked us like it wasn't like oh how many what's the population?

3:00:31What's the income of and how many how did you find out about that? Jonathan invited me to this meeting.

3:00:39Oh, because I guess I'm on citizens. Yeah, maybe that too.

3:00:45Are you on that citizens group? Not really, but he invites me to everything because because I'm nice.

3:00:52Yeah. And you were chair, too. So, yeah.

3:00:55Um Well, you can reach out to Andrew. I'm going to reach out to the chair.

3:01:01And there's some new um documents that have been approved. Um the guy from CMRP

3:01:07Steven or he's the DPU person for the central mass. all there's like five different documents and one of them you

3:01:15can comment till next week and it's all about um not site assessment there's just so much

3:01:24for renewables yeah it's for solar it's like the final oh uh draft guidelines for bylaws which we followed

3:01:33in 2018 or 19 and picked them up in our they did it again

3:01:40the state so now they want draft, which I'm apprehensive to accept because we've already accepted them.

3:01:48Yeah. And what if something changes again?

3:01:51Then we got to go to town meeting and change it again. I don't know.

3:01:55But this this is a bigger issue. Like somebody's got to drive this thing pointwise.

3:02:01you and Andrew and our attorney or something have to be on this because otherwise they're just going to apply and we're gonna be like

3:02:09we need some decisions making makers in the in a room and and that is going to say and it's going to be the the boards are

3:02:17going to have to vote to say are we going to pursue this AB or C and I don't think anybody I think everybody has their personal opinions but I don't

3:02:25think anything was ever ever discussed right and not voted on and I don't even know if it can arguing in front of that is probably not a good thing.

3:02:34So remember the uh this parcel is 40 acres and I made a comment and it's on their

3:02:43website. I think I was before the select one and I said look if they there's something written in the law that if a second project comes adjacent to that

3:02:52one even if it's a different owner they get some benefits you know not starting from scratch

3:03:00and ESA put it on their website. Hi guys. Um they're watching. I did find it and I sent it I believe to this office.

3:03:10Um, I sent it to Paty, Dylan, and Steve.

3:03:15CMR 980 CMR citing part 1.02 project segmentation. I won't bore you, but it's there in writing. But number

3:03:24one, and I I wrote about this to the EFSB, waiver of rules, where good cause appears, not contrary to statute, the

3:03:33board may the board and any preciding officer may permit deviation from any rules contained in 980 CMR.

3:03:43So there's my proof. Wasn't kidding.

3:03:46They're going to do what they want to do. So, this adjoining this total 40 acres that they're renting next to an a

3:03:54substation that's being doubled in size or down the street on three-phase power up.

3:04:02So, they can go bigger than what they're saying.

3:04:04That's right. And it's it's bigger than all of us because they want it here. And right now, Tukes Ferry

3:04:11rescended their project. It was completely approved for the EFSB, but then they it was um they rescended it

3:04:21because the connectivity and the upgrade they needed to the system in Tukesbury cost more than they thought.

3:04:29So we have a completely already a nice package sitting out there floating in the state and Hillman is Hillman's going to look for a home.

3:04:38So this is only going to get worse.

3:04:42So Toukesbury is very happy and theirs was only 125 megawatt. This is 150. So

3:04:50it's bigger than us and it's too much work. Um it it's like you have to make a

3:04:57you have to take hours away. So like you have to dedicate four hours a week or something because like that's the effort

3:05:04it's going to take or it's an intervenor that you pay.

3:05:08Yep. And uh you know with that as well something kind of segus into another thing I want to get onto everyone's

3:05:16radar is uh data centers which is as it stands right now uh this is something a

3:05:23resident was reaching out asking uh how do we permit a data center do we permit them and looking at our bylaw it looks

3:05:31like [clears throat] because there's no better defined use that it does just fall kind of uh going to say more neatly even into

3:05:38heavy industrial um and potentially warehousing, but I think heavy industrial was kind of the the stronger use and

3:05:47all of the kind of things we have in our bylaw that could you could deny them on they can very easily overcome where you know it's putting you know too great of

3:05:54a strain on the infrastructure or if they can build their power and they can supply their own water or whatever they

3:06:00need to do which are ultimately go through We were getting the one that

3:06:09Selfridge is getting. I was I was I I heard Central Mass. I It was all up. Selfridge is getting a data song.

3:06:17Oh, yeah. It's It's a big one, right?

3:06:20So, are you saying we should change bylaws to We should definitely define data center

3:06:27and what that is and specific use. And I not saying that we should or shouldn't

3:06:35um ban them outright, but it would definitely be good to adopt it and kind of how when we would to adopt that have

3:06:43it prohibited in all zoning districts while a review would be conducted of how we should something like that.

3:06:51Somebody did it in uh Westfield. I believe there's other towns that have done moratoriums for a short term. Can can we get something on the warrant for October?

3:07:00Um I can try to move quickly on this if the board would like me to.

3:07:04Should be I mean at least put a data center put it across uses uh not allowed

3:07:11but at least define it as a use any I may be able to I can talk to the board's office. Um,

3:07:20yeah, Sturbridge did a moratorum on batteries and I don't think they heard back from the AG if it was even approved,

3:07:27but then they're following it up with they're doing the bylaws now.

3:07:32So, as long as you're moving towards something, give us a little reason, just time. But the minute we do a moratorum, that's when we got hit with preliminary cycle plans.

3:07:43You can always create an overland district on a two acres of land

3:07:47[laughter]

3:07:48there. Do we if if there is a data center that's going to that that wants to go into an industrial area whatever

3:07:55of of childhood are we going to prevent that?

3:08:00I just thought we just got re out by one by a resident about us saying let's make one low-inccome hot let's make one new

3:08:07apartment low income and um you didn't like that that we wanted right you didn't like that that we added one and

3:08:14and we obviously Rob didn't and so why are we so now we why are we saying we're going to ban data centers when potentially that could be our next

3:08:23Amazon with tax money I'm just saying it not that I won't I'm not there's a lot

3:08:28have pros and cons to it and I'm sure traffic if we're if we're right

3:08:36the other nobody that works in it right now we're going to we have we have it's noisy well over $und00 million that we need to

3:08:43spend on our schools we're not getting any help from you know from anywhere else and um we need obviously we need a big giant senior

3:08:51center that that's expensive and we definitely need another fire state we really we do need another and we have all

3:08:59Like why would we want to ban something that could potentially um give us this tax up to the voters?

3:09:06We put it up to the voters. That's why we vote. I don't want to frame it as a as a ban.

3:09:10I think it would be the adoption with restricted or or we don't want to put it in our neighborhood. with a placeholder that's

3:09:19saying we could have you know directly in our bylaws section 200 point you know whatever it would be data centers and then say you know this

3:09:26is a placeholder section as we're the town's writing this section give us a year I'm just being a devil's advocate say

3:09:36no one wants no one right no one wanted Amazon either but they're funding our town that's why our so special permit and

3:09:44I would say nobody wanted Amazon special permit and That one from town meeting they vote overwhelmingly overwhelmingly to the height. So that said they knew who it was.

3:09:55Yeah. I mean it has its problems.

3:09:57Nobody wanted NDAs. That's what they wanted right with putting um you know one thing definitely we want in the bylaw is

3:10:04something saying that it can't put a you know burden on water system right even writing some things like you

3:10:12must be able to provide your own power must be able to provide your own water.

3:10:16things like that. So that way those step back things do some research on it. I mean that's that's the kind of thing that's going to

3:10:24go to see you to to look at what some of the other towns have done or they didn't want me to add a loan from Mohammed and and we're going to ban that for what what reason?

3:10:35Yeah, it was nice he was listen and if it's people working for a low wage at the gas station, it probably is.

3:10:44That's kind of why brought it up. It's it's going to be if you like the camps where you work on Nucket, you get benefits for work.

3:10:54That's how you get people to work in shops on Nucket. You give them above. Yeah.

3:11:04Anything else like to house their temporary workers for the What was that?

3:11:10There there are companies that just bought a hotel.

3:11:14Yeah. to house to house their their workers for the summer.

3:11:17Woodmeister on that. I just need a signature on my water.

3:11:24Another one they took to the registry of deeds and they wouldn't accept it cuz the signature Where's my Okay.

3:11:30Oh, but uh you can adjourn. You can all sign it on your way out. Make motion to adjurnn.

3:11:38Uh second.

3:11:39All in favor? I put in