2026-10-22 - Council Recommendations Committee

01:59Mhm.

03:54>> Mhm.

05:16>> I need a ring.

05:19And we

05:21speak it together.

05:22>> Okay.

05:23And we'll call this recommendations

05:25committee to order.

05:26Um, we have a couple of things in front

05:28of us.

05:29Um, we have the recommendation

05:33resident task force committee

05:35selection so far.

05:38And then we have uh Brittany's

05:40recommended recommendations

05:43um or suggested policies.

05:46>> Suggested possible policy

05:48recommendations.

05:49>> That's what I'm trying to say.

05:51So, I thought we'd walk through this

05:53um

05:55resident committee first and see if

05:58there's anything we need to do with

06:00that. Uh it looks like it's gone through

06:02all the advisory boards and we have

06:05appointments for all but

06:07the P&Z, which November 26th, what is

06:11today? 29th.

06:13So, P&Z Monday will make their

06:14appointment, hopefully. And the

06:16committee is scheduled to meet for the

06:18first time on November 16th.

06:21>> The week of. So, that's how Yeah, once

06:23we email them, we just [clears throat]

06:24make sure they're all available.

06:26>> And that will be uh virtual.

06:28>> All remote, yes.

06:29>> Mhm.

06:30>> And and available open to the public

06:32too.

06:32>> Open to the public except for council

06:34members, right?

06:36>> Well, that is

06:36>> [laughter]

06:37>> that is your rules, but yes.

06:39Um any when when I say open to the

06:42public, it's a call-in for the public,

06:44so

06:45if the council wanted to call in, they

06:46could. They wouldn't be able to

06:47participate. The public wouldn't be able

06:48to participate in any way.

06:50>> Okay.

06:51Any other questions or thoughts or

06:54comments on this?

06:55>> We're going to bring this list forward

06:57um to the work session next week, but

06:59it's available to all of council.

07:00>> And I'm presenting that

07:03>> Um

07:03>> because I do the presentation. Do you

07:06want me to present this or you

07:07presenting this?

07:08>> We'll put it on a slide for you and then

07:10you [clears throat] can just, you know,

07:11either way.

07:12>> And we should have all our appointments.

07:13>> have all our appointments um by then and

07:15they should be looking at their first

07:17meeting date. Fingers crossed we'll have

07:20nailed down their first meeting date by

07:21then.

07:21>> Okay, awesome.

07:23Okay, Brittany, you want to walk us

07:24through your slides?

07:25>> Let's do it. So, uh Ginny, I assume

07:29you're going to uh are you going to

07:30project this for us or no? We can talk

07:32through it.

07:32>> Um

07:33>> Um I have one link on it um that I

07:36thought we might be able to view

07:38together cuz I was anticipating seeing

07:40it on the screen. No, no, no. No worries

07:43at all. I mean, this is, you know, an

07:45informal working group.

07:47There's two ways to look at this

07:49presentation, I think. Three ways. The

07:51third way is you scrap it all together

07:52and start from scratch, but two of the

07:54ways of looking at it are

07:57this is just the organizing slide deck

08:00for our committee work, or if you think

08:03this is the right framework, you could

08:05also be thinking of this as a draft of

08:07how it's also going to be presented to

08:09the full council. So, depending on what

08:11you think of the format I chose, of the

08:13information we need to share, it could

08:16be either lens.

08:18So, we are again looking at and I I

08:20combined some of our terminology,

08:23council travel, training {slash}

08:25conferences, cuz those seem to be

08:26similar, and events {slash} meals,

08:29because those are also similar concepts.

08:32So, on the foundational concepts page,

08:35and

08:36Ginny will pull up the the link. So,

08:38what that links to our policy statement

08:40164 is the code of ethics for the

08:43council that we all attest to every time

08:47we are elected, and I thought that was

08:49important because a lot of our

08:50conversation as we were working through

08:52this together was thinking about

08:56how we do this work as both residents of

09:00Cary,

09:01council members, that anything that we

09:05do

09:06to execute the duties of the office has

09:09to be in service of the town, and we

09:11talked a lot about that language, and

09:13then I realized we have a lot of that

09:15language codified already. So, that is

09:18already foundational to all the choices

09:20we make about what is appropriate for

09:24our travel, training, and meal expenses.

09:26You know, so just some of the language

09:27to highlight, you know, the the first

09:29preamble,

09:31um

09:31uh officials be independent, impartial,

09:34and responsible to the people, that

09:36public office not be used for personal

09:38gain. Uh Um,

09:40Jenny, if you'll scroll down a little

09:42bit, um,

09:44and keep going through.

09:48Uh, so, you know, we have a really great

09:50part here, and you want to stop right

09:52there, where it says that council

09:55members are going to have different

09:58kinds of roles at different times, and

10:01council members must know how to

10:03distinguish among their official roles

10:06and other roles, the role of citizens,

10:08and determine when each role is

10:09appropriate and to act accordingly.

10:12Council member must find within his or

10:13her own conscience the touchstone by

10:15which to determine what conduct is

10:17appropriate. So, just pointing out that

10:20as we're thinking about, you know,

10:22again, a lot of our conversation being

10:24when is a training relevant to our

10:27council role? When is attending a

10:29community event relevant to our council

10:31role?

10:32We already attest to having to make

10:35those kinds of determinations in all

10:37aspects of this role all the time. And

10:40so, that is the foundation of these

10:43decisions, but all the decisions we

10:44should be making as elected officials.

10:47The next foundational concept is gifts

10:50and favors, and uh, that's not projected

10:53here, but Mayor and Council Member Koon

10:55Johnson, that is slide number four.

10:58Um, if you want to flip over, and my

11:01kudos to Lisa and the legal team for

11:04making this flowchart for us.

11:06Uh, I don't know what your impressions

11:08were when she shared it with us. Did you

11:09>> Almost answered all my questions.

11:12>> [clears throat]

11:12>> Yes.

11:12>> Only had one.

11:13>> What a fantastic tool, I shared with

11:15Lisa. I'm a very visual thinker, so a

11:18flowchart worked very well for me. And

11:22for folks not uh, looking at this in

11:23front of them, this is a tool that is

11:25going to help council figure out when we

11:29are invited to events,

11:31uh, or when events are scheduled for us

11:34with entities that we have existing

11:37relationships with, including financial

11:38relationships like the Cary Chamber of

11:41Commerce. And we are attending their

11:44eye-opener breakfast or their annual

11:46banquet.

11:48What rules govern attending those

11:51events, accepting those meals, when it

11:54is considered a conflict of interest,

11:56and essentially that you're you're

11:57taking something of value uh

12:00at at at a personal level versus you're

12:03eating a meal at an event that you're

12:05attending in an official capacity. Um

12:07so, I think that helps answer a lot of

12:10the questions we were grappling with

12:12about, you know, when the town has

12:14sponsored a table at a nonprofit event

12:17and council attends, what does that

12:18mean?

12:19We have the town ordinance and the state

12:22statute to tell us exactly what that

12:24means and when we can accept and when we

12:26can't. So, I found this personally a

12:28very helpful tool.

12:30>> I would like to thank Martha,

12:31[clears throat]

12:31our new attorney in the office. Martha

12:33Berdonia did most of the work on this.

12:35>> Well, please extend my appreciation.

12:38So,

12:39what I shared with our ethics policy,

12:42this new new tool from the legal

12:44department,

12:46uh doesn't necessarily

12:49impact the policies we're going to go

12:51through directly, but again, I think it

12:54it helps with some related questions we

12:57have in this general arena. So, I'll

12:59move right along and I tried to distill

13:03our two committee meetings worth of

13:06conversation, which was, you know, a lot

13:09of brainstorming kind of conversation.

13:11We just bandied around a lot of ideas.

13:13So, I tried to distill that,

13:15consolidate, condense to get to I think

13:18the core of what I heard from you. And

13:21if I didn't hear from my colleagues

13:24correctly, if I didn't capture concepts

13:27either the way you intended them to be

13:29or I've neglected to capture something

13:31in its entirety, let me know, but we

13:33will go through this and then like I

13:35said,

13:37we could present this exactly like this

13:40to the full council if we wanted to or

13:43if we want to go if we want to begin

13:45filling in some of the blanks, literally

13:47the blank spaces that are here or

13:49answering some of the questions I've

13:51posed under that additional

13:52considerations bullet, we could do that.

13:55But policy recommendation number one,

13:58travel, training/conference and

14:00event/meal expenses incurred by

14:02individual council members.

14:06So, this is an opportunity for me to

14:07make notes to myself as well. Shall not

14:10exceed a blank dollar amount per fiscal

14:13year. We had talked about perhaps

14:15setting that threshold at $750.

14:18I don't know uh you have any additional

14:20thoughts since we last proposed that

14:22figure. Do we want to share with our

14:25colleagues that that was the figure that

14:26we had in mind or do we want to leave it

14:29blank like this?

14:31Um you know, I I asked some additional

14:33questions here like if the cap is

14:36reached, do we specify what happens

14:39next? A council member is personally

14:41responsible. Um can they request

14:43additional town funds? Um can they

14:46borrow from another council member's

14:48allocation? Um and you know what, as I'm

14:50posing all of these questions, let me

14:52actually pause here and ask our staff a

14:55question that I had as I was preparing

14:58this slide deck.

15:01How granular

15:03do you want us to be with some of these

15:06prescriptions and some of these

15:08policies? Meaning,

15:11council convened this committee in part

15:14to do this work and not task staff with

15:19additional policy creation. At the same

15:22time, I recognize that this is usually a

15:24collaboration and that council is sort

15:27of usually the the big picture and then

15:30staff translates that for us into our

15:33technical policy language. So, I guess

15:37my question posed another way is how

15:39much big picture do you want us to stay

15:42and then would you prefer for staff to

15:44get into the weeds or do you want us to

15:47start answering some of these more

15:49process this oriented granular

15:51questions?

15:52>> So, I think you know

15:54as I was just flipping through these

15:55slides before you started, I was like,

15:57you know, this is perfect. You're

15:58telling us kind of what you want and

16:00then I think yeah, if you can kind of

16:01answer some of these other questions

16:03that you've posed. If you can you all

16:06and then with the other four, you know,

16:07maybe next week

16:09give us this direction and we know what

16:10the answers to these questions are, then

16:12we can do a draft and then we can, you

16:15know, work back and forth in there, but

16:17>> Okay, great.

16:19So, then are we interested tonight in

16:21answering these questions amongst the

16:23three of us or do we want to leave them

16:26here

16:26>> Yeah.

16:27>> go through it as a separate

16:28>> we need to make take a shot at it and

16:31then our colleagues can overrule us or

16:33agree or whatever.

16:36So,

16:37my concern is

16:39when you talk about travel conference

16:42and meals, etc.

16:44is making sure that

16:46you could go on an inner city visits

16:48because

16:49a lot of ideas come from there. Downtown

16:52Cary Park.

16:52>> Mhm.

16:53>> Uh one of the structures in that park

16:56came from an inner city visit to Texas.

16:59The idea did.

17:01So,

17:02750 would not allow me to go on an inner

17:04city visit and so that would

17:06>> you know what? I'm sorry. I quoted the

17:07wrong number. That's actually for slide

17:09number seven.

17:11750 was the threshold that we talked

17:13about. We I don't think we had actually

17:15talked about you know, we looked at some

17:17of our peer municipalities 5,000 I

17:20believe is what Morrisville

17:22set theirs at.

17:24So yes, excuse me, 750 would be far too

17:28low for this threshold. That was another

17:30threshold we had discussed.

17:31>> Okay, that makes sense.

17:33I've said 50 I can't do anything with

17:36travel and 750 even in town.

17:39>> Yes,

17:40and as we talked about last time

17:42travel has become very expensive. So

17:46even a single trip could be

17:50costly. And that notion that is is that

17:52we have a cap and then you have to

17:54budget accordingly. So if you're a

17:56council member who really values that

17:58trip, you might then be spending most of

18:00not all of your budget on it.

18:02>> Yeah, I I think 5,000 sounds fair.

18:05Not meaning that you should spend it

18:07all.

18:09But

18:10that is a good target to have and a way

18:14to budget it and would allow you to go

18:17on an intercity visit even to

18:19expensive places.

18:21I'm thinking most expensive place I

18:23think I've be like New York City or

18:25Chicago and I don't know why you're

18:26going on an intercity visit there, but

18:29anyway,

18:31I think that is a great starting point

18:34to give to our colleagues and see what

18:37they think of that.

18:39I don't know what you think if you think

18:41that's too much, too little.

18:42>> I don't

18:43this one I don't have an opinion on. I'm

18:46the I'm the council member who's not

18:47traveling, right? So

18:51it it's I I always have an opinion on

18:53everything, but this one

18:55I you know

18:58I really don't know.

18:59>> I'm trying to think

18:59>> it's weird, but

19:01>> over the 19 years with the exception of

19:03travel for downtown Cary Park

19:06I don't think I've gone on anything

19:08except for intercity visits once every

19:10it was once every two years.

19:12Now I think they're up to once a year.

19:16>> I've been on one

19:18overnight intercity trip.

19:20>> Other than that, I haven't gone

19:23anything. And over the years, I'm

19:25thinking all the colleagues I had,

19:27there was one colleague that went to

19:31a lot of stuff.

19:33I would say five or six trips a year.

19:35And she's been gone for at least a

19:38decade or more.

19:40Um so I don't know of anybody else that

19:42travels that much

19:44with town business. So

19:46>> Yeah.

19:47This is always subject to revision. And

19:51this is our first attempt at it. So you

19:53know, I mean we'll

19:55any of these you're putting a stake in

19:57the ground. And I think we will find

20:00over time if we're too high or too low.

20:03I mean this is worded not to exceed. So

20:06this is not cart blanche

20:08to spend every penny. You must spend.

20:12Um

20:12And so I mean again, I only have an

20:15intuition. 5,000 to me also seems plenty

20:19generous.

20:21That that should allow you

20:22>> I simply don't want to share an

20:23uninformed mushy opinion.

20:25>> Yeah.

20:26>> So

20:27>> I I'm agreeable to what my colleagues

20:28think within reason here.

20:29>> And and I think if I'm going to spend

20:31taxpayer dollars and go somewhere, then

20:34one, it should be transparent where

20:36everybody can see it. And two, somehow

20:38someway I should tell them what I saw

20:40and what I did.

20:41>> Yes. I mean

20:41>> It's it's not a boondoggle. It's work.

20:45Um so they should know that they're my

20:47boss. And they should know what I did

20:50with their money while I was working.

20:52And so

20:53>> So when we present this to our

20:54colleagues, we want to

20:56add

20:57$5,000 or we want to leave the blank

20:59there?

21:00>> I would start with $5,000 and see what

21:03they say.

21:03>> And so then what about the additional

21:07policy prescriptions. Are we going to

21:10specify what happens if that maximum is

21:13reached?

21:15>> And they have to come I I would think

21:17come before council.

21:19And ask and explain council and the

21:22public ask and explain why.

21:24>> Mhm.

21:24>> Um make a justification for that

21:26expense. Uh I assume staff goes through

21:30that before things get to us.

21:32Uh we need an additional expense and we

21:36got to justify why we need that

21:38because it's not in the budget. So,

21:40yeah.

21:41>> And that is actually also how

21:43Morrisville does it.

21:45As we discussed before, Morrisville put

21:48together early next year a really a

21:50really robust

21:52policy.

21:53Um and so they've thought through a lot

21:54of these questions, but I I think that

21:57was helpful for me to have a touch point

21:59in thinking about the kinds of questions

22:01we should answer.

22:03Um but of course Carrie might want to

22:05answer those questions differently. But

22:06that is also how Morrisville answered it

22:09was

22:10should you want to go above and beyond,

22:12it requires

22:14for that additional allocation.

22:15>> And the under the additional

22:17considerations, personally, I don't

22:19think you should ask for other council

22:21members funds because that's not the

22:23intention.

22:24>> Yeah.

22:25>> It's a personal

22:27bucket. It is your personal bucket. You

22:29shouldn't be taking from other buckets.

22:31>> Yes.

22:31>> Um so

22:32>> Couldn't agree. Couldn't make for tricky

22:34relations with your colleagues, too.

22:36>> Exactly. Yeah, pressure.

22:37>> Yes. Well, you've already told us you

22:39don't travel, so we can just double up

22:40our money by taking all yours, Carrie.

22:42>> Yeah, right.

22:43>> [laughter]

22:45>> So, Mayor, you've segued perfectly into

22:47some of the other concepts of

22:49transparency and uh

22:52also justifying the value of these

22:54expenses. So, the next one is one that

22:57we've already started.

22:59Um and so all travel, training,

23:01conference, and event meal expenses

23:03incurred on behalf of council members

23:04shall be shall be disclosed in a report

23:07included on the council's consent

23:09agenda. And so,

23:11this gets back to the question I just

23:14posed, but now particularly Jenny, since

23:17this has implications for the clerk's

23:19office,

23:20do you want us to

23:23describe here a bit how that would work?

23:26And so, you know, when I say

23:28um so, the additional consideration I've

23:29asked is do we need to detail a

23:30reporting procedure with the clerk's

23:31office? Do we need to specify reporting

23:34frequency? And so, what I was thinking

23:36about there is the mechanism by which

23:39council members should [snorts] be

23:41making sure that the clerk's office is

23:44aware of the expenses. And really, I

23:47mean, in all likelihood you would be

23:49already cuz executing the expenses on

23:52our behalf. And that all actually is

23:54related to a question we'll get to in a

23:55few slides.

23:57Um

23:58But then also, so how we want that

24:01reported? Um

24:03you know, in the one consent agenda item

24:06we've had so far, it listed the council

24:08members' names, the event they were

24:09attending, and the purchase price in

24:11this case of a conference registration.

24:14Um again, Morrisville has thought

24:17through some of these answers. They're

24:18doing this through a quarterly report,

24:20and that quarterly report shows also um

24:24the how much of the bucket has been used

24:26so far. So, you know, it's it's a a

24:30rolling tabulation of how much of each

24:33council member's allocation has been

24:35used. Do you want that level of detail?

24:38Do we want this to appear on every

24:41consent agenda as expenses are incurred,

24:44or do we want to just set a different

24:47frequency? Um you know, is there

24:50one consent agenda a month that it

24:52appears on? And so, those were again the

24:55the kind of uh

24:57granular questions

24:59that we could ask and we could think

25:00through.

25:01>> Or it could appear as a kind of a a

25:03standing consent agenda report, if

25:07necessary, that links to a single

25:09ongoing

25:10document tracked by the fiscal year.

25:13>> for the agenda and the minutes.

25:14>> Okay.

25:15>> And we wouldn't actually need something

25:16that wouldn't modify over time. And so,

25:18like, you know, on this

25:20um

25:21we committed, you know, just as a pilot

25:22to do it at the last meeting every

25:24month, but we had

25:25>> Okay.

25:25>> had

25:28the month of September, so we didn't

25:29have anything to add to the last meeting

25:30in the month of October.

25:31>> Okay. That's good.

25:32>> So, um

25:34we we can do any kind of frequency. I

25:36don't think that's a problem. I think

25:38every agenda might be a lot. You might

25:40hit more of the times where you aren't

25:41spending money. So, um how we were

25:44looking at it now is we were doing, you

25:46know, the last meeting of the month the

25:47month prior.

25:48>> Okay.

25:49>> Um as well, so that way it gives us some

25:51time to make sure the report's right. We

25:53share the report with council, make sure

25:55we had captured it right. So, that's

25:56what I would feel comfortable doing that

25:59you have the um opportunity to write

26:01back and say, "That's incorrect." or,

26:03you know, um something.

26:05And so,

26:07yeah, cuz a lot of the expenses that

26:09you're referring to here would be paid

26:10for, you know, out of my office. And so,

26:13I I can't see a

26:15a way in which it would be

26:16>> I can't either. Can either of you think

26:19of

26:21any expense that Jenny's office wouldn't

26:24already be aware of?

26:25>> I don't think so.

26:26>> And even if it was something that you

26:28all paid for and asked for

26:29reimbursement, that reimbursement would

26:31show up on the list.

26:32>> Right.

26:33>> Because it would still come out of my

26:34office.

26:35>> So, we're asking for another tracking

26:37protocol for your office.

26:39>> That's okay. Okay.

26:40>> Yeah.

26:40>> No.

26:41>> I don't think the policy would just say

26:42pursuant to the clerk, like it would

26:44leave it open for the clerk to tell you

26:45how she wants you to send the

26:46information.

26:47>> Okay.

26:48>> I do like within the policy saying kind

26:50of what your headers would be, so that

26:51way we all agree [clears throat] this

26:53information will show up on the report.

26:55That would be helpful.

26:56>> Okay.

26:57>> Yeah, I think the information you want

26:59on the report and the frequency would be

27:01good to have in the policy, but in terms

27:03of how the information gets to Jenny and

27:05how she does her job.

27:06>> all figure that out. That can

27:07>> Okay. Yeah.

27:09>> So, do you want us to talk through that

27:10now, Jenny? Oh, yeah. Okay, let's just

27:12do it. Okay, so

27:14uh

27:15>> I can pull up

27:16>> Yes.

27:17We

27:18um cuz we're going to want

27:20the name.

27:22>> Your last

27:23>> We're going to want the amount.

27:27We're going to want

27:31the event.

27:35>> Yeah, the last report um it had an intro

27:37paragraph and we would keep going like

27:39that, just updating maybe the dates. Um

27:42the things in the table were the name,

27:44the expense, the event, training {slash}

27:46conference, that was one column, and

27:48then the location.

27:50>> I'm sorry, what was the last one?

27:51Location.

27:52>> Oh, the location.

27:52>> Mhm.

27:55>> Yeah. Uh

27:57do we want that rolling calculation of

28:01how much

28:03>> of the bucket is left?

28:04>> Yes, is left or how much has been

28:06applied toward

28:08>> I don't see the value in that if there's

28:11a cap that's reasonable.

28:14If it was a

28:16>> Is it helpful to us as individuals?

28:18>> So that yeah, we know

28:20>> has right.

28:22>> Um it also keeps the clerk from having

28:24to tell you you've spent too much money.

28:27>> Yeah.

28:27>> Correct. Correct. Don't want you to have

28:29to enforce, right?

28:31>> I believe you let me know before you do

28:32that. I was just going to look at that

28:33again.

28:34>> And this is just um

28:35it was the last meeting in September. It

28:37was on the consent agenda. It was called

28:39council member travel and training

28:40expense.

28:41>> Yes.

28:43Cuz I remember now. Um cuz I was

28:46thinking of additional information, I I

28:49I know it's hard cuz you guys are yeah

28:51having the advantage of looking

28:53looking over Jenny's shoulder. So, you

28:56know, it it's four simple columns. The

28:58name of the council member, the dollar

29:00amount of the expense, the name of the

29:02event, and then the location. And I just

29:05thought the type of expense would be cuz

29:09so in this case it was the conference

29:11registration. You see a dollar amount

29:13and you see the event, but it doesn't

29:14specify what that dollar amount is

29:16applying to specifically. And so I just

29:19thought

29:20either in that expense column, either

29:23adding the description of what that

29:25amount is, or another column that says,

29:28you know,

29:29type of expense. Does that make sense? I

29:31know it's hard to describing a table to

29:34you.

29:35>> I'm trying to pull that up, too. Well,

29:37if it's if it's the travel training

29:39travel and training expense chart, I

29:44think that is probably enough detail as

29:46to what the funds were used for. I mean,

29:48if somebody sees Elston, Texas, Texas,

29:50they're going to know that was hotel,

29:52flights, food. If it's Raleigh, they're

29:55going to know it was just a

29:57registration, right?

29:58>> See,

29:59maybe. I don't know. We know that we

30:01also though have residents who are

30:03thinking very carefully about what our

30:05expenses are. And so you see in this

30:08case Oh, I see Jenny has it pulled up

30:09there.

30:10>> Right.

30:10>> Um, I mean, I can't get it.

30:11>> [laughter]

30:12>> This was right on our agenda, right?

30:13>> Yeah, I've not seen this.

30:14>> Yeah, I had it to merge it. I think it

30:16is

30:17intuitive to think that that's probably

30:19a registration fee, but without it being

30:21specified, it could be

30:24mileage reimbursement. We don't actually

30:25offer that, but you could think that.

30:27You could think it was a per diem or a

30:29meal was included in there. It wasn't.

30:31>> kind of my stuff. I mean, tell them what

30:33you spent the money on.

30:37>> But that seems like

30:38>> You don't have to say meal one, meal

30:40two, meal three. I mean, just meals.

30:43>> Yeah.

30:43>> Um

30:46>> I'm fine with that. That just seems like

30:48far more detail that is necessary on a

30:50one or two-day trip to another city.

30:52>> And in the businesses I've been with

30:54over the years, I had to do that all the

30:56time.

30:57So.

30:58>> Now there's just the app for that.

30:59There's none of this. It's Is that

31:01inside or outside of policy? Will we

31:03reimburse you? Yes or no? That's it. So

31:05it's not um

31:07that's not the current corporate

31:08approach to these types of expenses. I

31:11can go and get lobster for dinner every

31:13single night when I'm traveling for

31:14work. They're going to pay $31 of that

31:17lobster and that's just that, right? So

31:19I just get reimbursed.

31:21Um if you know, for whatever the the per

31:24diem is my company provides, which is

31:25not based on federal numbers or anything

31:27like that. Um but you know, if you want

31:30to itemize it, I'm not going to argue

31:31against it.

31:32>> Sure.

31:33>> And we'll keep the frequency as the last

31:36meeting of the month.

31:37>> Last meeting of the month. I mean, you

31:38could say monthly here.

31:40>> Monthly covers when we only have one

31:41meeting.

31:42>> Sounds good.

31:42>> Um and then that way it kind of gives us

31:44some flexibility.

31:45>> Okay.

31:45>> Yeah.

31:46>> What about

31:48reporting where you went and what you

31:49did?

31:51>> That is captured in a

31:53>> Another policy.

31:55>> Hold that thought. And that's that's

31:58captured on the next slide, Mayor. If

31:59you want to flip over with us.

32:02So this is the threshold that I

32:04erroneously cited earlier. If we want to

32:06fill in this blank.

32:09Any proposed travel, training,

32:10conference, or event meal expenditure

32:12anticipated to exceed dollar amount

32:15shall require prior prior approval by a

32:18vote of council. The requesting council

32:21member shall provide a written

32:22justification for the request. Following

32:25the approved activity, the council

32:26member shall provide a summary of key

32:29takeaways to the full council by and

32:31that blank there, I was thinking of what

32:33is the reporting mechanism, through, by,

32:36how, within X number of days if we want

32:40to put

32:41um

32:42a a deadline on it. And so, Mayor, I had

32:46heard in our previous conversation

32:49wanting this level of justification and

32:52[clears throat]

32:53uh

32:54the requirement to share with our

32:56colleagues the takeaways for these major

32:59expenses would be expenses that exceed

33:03whatever dollar amount we fill in in the

33:04blank but not necessarily for the more

33:08routine and and local kinds of events

33:11>> have to define routine.

33:13>> Well, routine would be defined

33:15essentially by virtue of this policy

33:17anything that doesn't exceed whatever

33:18threshold you put in here cuz this

33:20reporting requirement is tied to

33:23expenses that would exceed this

33:24threshold.

33:26>> And [snorts] this threshold

33:28is going to be a percentage of the

33:30previous threshold or the bucket.

33:33>> Yeah, I mean if if we set it at 500 then

33:35it's 10% of our 5,000.

33:39And so this this is the the trigger

33:43we had thought of as potentially being

33:45$750.

33:47>> So, let's let's do an example.

33:50You went to a local conference. What was

33:52it in the report like $200 something?

33:55>> 275.

33:56>> It's It's kind of self-explanatory

33:59what you went to and what you did. Uh

34:02what probably wouldn't be would be

34:04overnight trips, I'm assuming, because

34:07that's more expensive. Why did you spend

34:09that money? Where did you go? And why

34:11did you go there?

34:12Um so I'm wondering if that's

34:15how I or we should think of that.

34:18>> Yeah, cuz you know, in tying them

34:19together [clears throat]

34:21the reporting requirements and the

34:22dollar figure

34:25you do have the ability to

34:27set a a

34:29a threshold uh that you think is more

34:32significant, right? Cuz if we set this

34:33very low, if we set it at $100, that

34:37would capture almost anything that we

34:39did. Um

34:40but if the intention is more to capture

34:45unique, more expensive,

34:48one-time type of events like intercity,

34:52then you'd

34:53set the threshold a little higher, and

34:55then you would only capture those kinds

34:57of events.

35:00>> Thinking you could get away with an

35:01overnight trip and a couple of meals for

35:04under 500, but that would be a reach.

35:07>> [laughter]

35:08>> Hey, you can. I would love to

35:11>> [clears throat]

35:11>> be a travel agent.

35:12>> [laughter]

35:12>> So, I'm thinking something like 500, you

35:15could do all the things in town probably

35:18and register. I haven't registered for a

35:20conference locally. I don't know what

35:22that cost would be.

35:25>> Well, that Well, that one was 250, 275,

35:28yeah.

35:29>> So, we are assuming they're somewhere

35:30around there.

35:31>> Mhm.

35:31>> So, maybe 500 or something like that?

35:36>> And I as we're thinking about this, I

35:39will also note the second of my

35:41questions down here, which is define

35:43total cost, cuz I think our intention

35:46here is

35:48the total cost of the trip.

35:51Uh not singular items. Meaning,

35:56you know, if the idea is, you know,

35:59travel is is all encompassing, it's all

36:01inclusive.

36:03Each individual

36:04item of travel

36:06could potentially not reach that

36:09threshold. You know, if you were looking

36:10at just your airfare or just your

36:13accommodations or just your per diem.

36:15But of course, if you're traveling, all

36:17of those expenses are bundled, and the

36:19idea would be that

36:21the entire cost of that travel

36:25cumulatively would meet this threshold.

36:27And so, do we need to define or at least

36:30specify that we mean total cost, not

36:33individual

36:35line items of travel.

36:36>> We can do that. We'll write it.

36:38>> Okay. And let me Can I play devil's

36:40advocate on this one just a little bit?

36:43I understand the spirit of this um get

36:47approval first.

36:49I do.

36:50But if we put a reasonable cap on these

36:52expenses in place,

36:54and those expenses are getting publicly

36:57reported, I don't have an objection to

37:00this. I think the threshold should be

37:02quite high, though. $2,000.

37:05>> Okay.

37:05>> Because we're all adults,

37:08and on a council that doesn't get along,

37:10this could be weaponized. So, um you

37:12know what? We're not going to approve

37:13your travel. You don't get to go to that

37:14affordable housing conference cuz I'm

37:16pissed at you.

37:17Um so, I think there's that. We're kind

37:20of thinking of our dynamic and our

37:21respect for each other and our ability

37:23to work together. That may or may not

37:25always be the case, and then we'll have

37:26a policy um in place that can be

37:30abused kind of in the I think we might

37:32be swinging the pendulum a bit in the in

37:34the other direction. Harold, if you feel

37:37as though you need to go on a trip and

37:39it's $1,500,

37:41and you report it, and the public knows,

37:44you know, what was spent, I I'm also

37:46comfortable that you'll share key

37:48takeaways. Um

37:50if that's sort of a a behavior

37:53>> Mhm.

37:54>> that to encourage, I don't necessarily

37:57think we need a really low threshold

37:59here.

38:00>> Okay.

38:01>> You know, does it make sense what I'm

38:02>> I'm I'm just off the top of my head, so

38:04yeah.

38:04>> an excellent point, because I will tell

38:06you I conceptually

38:08wrestled with this a bit myself,

38:11whereas, you know, getting back to the

38:12foundational concepts, the foundation of

38:15this is any of these dollars are spent

38:18on legitimate expenses in the execution

38:21of our duties. So, that's foundational.

38:24>> Yes.

38:24>> And then we've capped it at a dollar

38:26amount in order to budget accordingly

38:29and to keep it reasonable. So, you've

38:31already done those two things. You've

38:33already said all of these expenses are

38:36legitimate in the execution of our

38:38duties and they can't exceed this dollar

38:40amount. How much more additional

38:43reporting do we really need? Because

38:46those two other concepts should capture

38:48the idea that

38:50>> our colleagues are spending their money

38:52in the you know up to their allocation

38:55in the pursuit of their duties and for

38:58transparency amongst council members and

39:01the community, we're reporting it on the

39:03consent agenda.

39:04>> Right.

39:05>> So, do we need an additional layer of

39:07approval and scrutiny understanding

39:09those foundational concepts?

39:11>> Because I see the you know 5,000, let's

39:15just say that's the the the limit per

39:18fiscal year for our council member and

39:20it's being publicly reported. If I

39:22decide to go to a pickle festival in

39:25Utah and the public sees that on an

39:27agenda, they're going to be what the

39:29hell you doing? They're going to come at

39:30me and say that was not a good use of

39:32taxpayer money. Um not that I would go

39:34to a pickle festival, but

39:37>> We've got Mount Olive right here. Why do

39:38you have to go all the way to Utah?

39:39>> I can do it right here in North

39:41Carolina. So, but let's say um

39:44but let's say we we don't have that

39:46approval. Cuz mine isn't the reporting,

39:49it's the approval. I feel like that's a

39:50little bit excessive. But I do like the

39:53idea of I can't tell you how many times

39:55I'm like, oh you went and did what? I'd

39:57love to know what you learned there. And

39:58and of course we've got council members

40:00who amass a great deal of knowledge and

40:04share if and when they can or when they

40:05want to, but that knowledge being shared

40:08amongst the council, I mean how many

40:10times have we had a conversation about

40:12affordable housing in the last couple of

40:14years where this person's read this book

40:16and this person's read this book and

40:17this person went to this event, and I

40:18went to this webinar, you know. So, we

40:21are not working on this on a shared

40:23information fairly often. So, I really

40:25like the idea of requiring

40:28requiring information sharing. I don't

40:30think that is

40:33I think if we just asked everybody to do

40:34it, they would, but putting into a

40:36policy

40:38makes it feel like it's going to be more

40:40consistent.

40:41>> I like that.

40:41>> And then we could put a threshold on

40:43that, too, so that it wouldn't have to

40:45be for everything, but maybe it's just

40:47out of state travel when you are

40:49out of state, or maybe it's

40:50something above a specific threshold.

40:53So, you know, not not everything you do,

40:55because some things might be too small

40:57and not really worth it.

40:58>> And not And probably not of interest.

41:00That's the other thing. It's not always

41:01of interest to everybody.

41:03Um

41:04also

41:06how do we share that information? Let's

41:08say I go, and this is particularly for

41:10you,

41:11um Mr. Mayor, because I know you're very

41:14uh cognizant of anything that may or may

41:16not be deliberation via email. If I send

41:19you my key takeaways, and they're

41:21opinionated,

41:22at what point does that tip over into

41:24deliberation? You know, does does it

41:26give What if other council members, cuz

41:28it would be

41:30it'll be

41:31very hard not to start a conversation if

41:34somebody shares really really

41:35interesting stuff. Oh my gosh, that's so

41:37cool, or are you sure about that,

41:38because I don't think that sounds right.

41:40It would be very easy for that to tip

41:42over into deliberation via email.

41:44>> Maybe you send it to Jenny, and it's

41:45part of the

41:47agenda, and that way we don't That's

41:51where we read it.

41:51>> Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

41:54>> And if if you send it as long as you're

41:56not working off of all Like, you know,

41:57if between two council members, like if

41:59you somebody sent something out, and you

42:00replied and had this conversation with

42:02them, that's not deliberation, because

42:04you weren't Not everybody would be

42:05copied on it.

42:06>> Yeah.

42:07>> Yeah. Do you think we're [snorts]

42:09opening a can of worms if we had the

42:12opportunity to share at work sessions.

42:15Our work session timing is already so

42:17tight and we

42:19>> Yeah, I'd rather read it.

42:20>> It won't be

42:21>> You'd rather read it. Yeah.

42:22>> I'd rather read it. I don't need to hear

42:24it.

42:25Unless I have a question or something.

42:27>> You did email it out. You put at the

42:29bottom, you know, do not reply all. If

42:31you have questions about this, please

42:33contact me directly. Would be a way

42:35>> That's a good point. Just being really

42:36on the nose about it.

42:38>> Yeah.

42:38>> Okay. So

42:39>> So yeah, what I'm hearing is

42:41>> out of time something.

42:42>> What What is our hard cut off? You want

42:44us to end it

42:44>> We also got to determine another

42:46meeting.

42:47>> Okay. So let's take That's 4 more

42:49minutes sound fair, Mayor, and then

42:50we'll transition to

42:51>> about taking out that first sentence.

42:53>> the first sentence is what I'm hearing

42:55from you both.

42:56>> Or put it put a fairly high I like what

43:00you said. Take out the first sentence.

43:02>> Yeah. So we can take it out and then

43:07>> So

43:07>> When So Lisa posed this question, what

43:12triggers this reporting? Should it be

43:16overnight travel?

43:18Should it be

43:20>> I think

43:21you can even do a sentence. I went to

43:23Affordable Housing Conference where they

43:25talked about D and D and C.

43:27That's it.

43:28>> Yeah.

43:29>> And if I went on a trip where they we

43:32saw and did a lot of stuff, now that's

43:34going to be a bigger

43:35>> What I want is Lori Bush to share her

43:37notes when she takes classes.

43:40She'll go to all kinds of training and

43:41stuff like that. That I think is what

43:43also be interesting if somebody attended

43:45something at the School of Government

43:46and they took really good notes and then

43:49they shared those notes, then it would

43:50be a learning for for everybody.

43:52>> So something like

43:55following

43:57training

43:58conference or travel

44:01the council members shall provide a

44:02summary of its key takeaways to the full

44:04council by email

44:07is what we're saying?

44:08>> Yeah.

44:09>> I thought it was an agenda item.

44:11>> I think we were saying you could do

44:13>> either I mean you all can choose.

44:15[clears throat]

44:16>> Um within do we want to specify within a

44:19time period, within 30 days?

44:21>> Mhm.

44:22>> I mean

44:23that's kind of

44:24>> It's too generous.

44:26>> Yeah, I was thinking a week.

44:27>> Within 48 hours to get it on the agenda.

44:29>> No, within a week you get it on the

44:32agenda or the next agenda.

44:34>> Yeah, that's true cuz you don't want to

44:36wait so [clears throat] long that it it

44:37ends up holding things up for Jenny,

44:39too.

44:39>> Yeah.

44:41>> And you could Yeah, you could share it

44:43and then it shows up on the

44:45next agenda that has not been posted

44:47yet. Like we can come up with some

44:48wording about that cuz what we don't

44:50want to do is always modify the agenda

44:52to add your report on

44:53>> at the last minute.

44:54>> at the last minute. Um

44:56>> I think 7 days is reasonable.

44:58>> take away is within 7 days to the

45:01clerk's office. And if you if you wanted

45:04to share with all of council, well,

45:05within that 7 days cuz it might be

45:06something relevant, you just have to um

45:08know that you cannot reply all and we

45:10can still put it on the agenda.

45:12>> Okay. So, reasonably it would be the

45:14language would be send it within 7 days

45:17to and copy the town clerk and all of

45:19council.

45:20>> Yeah.

45:21And then you'd have to determine if you

45:23want it on the next agenda.

45:24>> Yeah, for the public listening.

45:27Okay.

45:28>> Let's find it.

45:29>> Put a pin in that.

45:30>> Look at your calendars.

45:32We have the I can't remember now what it

45:35was. Next meeting on

45:37>> So, we're meeting one week from today at

45:40the same time. Correct?

45:42>> Yes.

45:44Hold on.

45:45Yes.

45:47>> Yes, next Thursday.

45:48>> We just wanted to get

45:48>> But we have more time.

45:49>> that. Yeah, we'll have more time and we

45:52only have a few more slides to get

45:55through.

45:55>> in this room.

45:56>> Yes, I am not going to Herb Young

45:58>> Oh, no.

46:00>> It's just [clears throat]

46:01>> Okay.

46:02>> Yeah.

46:02>> All right.

46:04>> So we're good with keeping it the 29th?

46:05Are you really sure?

46:07>> So now we're into November.

46:10>> I'm no longer going to Florida for work.

46:15You're going to be at the quarterly?

46:16>> I'm going to grace that meeting.

46:18>> Okay. I will be at the quarterly

46:19meeting. So I will be here that first

46:21week.

46:23>> You want to try to stick with like

46:25Thursdays? Oh.

46:26>> Well, that's the quarterly. I want to do

46:27the first week on Thursday.

46:28>> want to do do both for the quarterly?

46:31>> Um well,

46:32>> Four?

46:34It's a Wednesday.

46:35>> Fourth?

46:37Does work for me.

46:40>> Mom of four?

46:42>> I was going to say Tuesday, but no,

46:43definitely not that Tuesday. Um

46:46uh

46:47yeah, I can do Wednesday the fourth.

46:49>> Okay, so 11 four

46:52at 5:15 in this room.

46:56So now we have the next two meetings.

47:00All right?

47:00>> could be if needed, correct?

47:02>> Yeah.

47:03>> You could just decide at your next

47:04meeting. Okay. Because I depending, I

47:07think we will definitely get through the

47:08end of the slide deck at the next

47:10meeting. It looks like

47:13the task force won't have convened yet,

47:16but we might have some

47:18>> So I will

47:19Yeah, we'll have a slide.

47:20>> So at least we have it if we need it,

47:22but I'm I'm cautiously optimistic we

47:24might get through our business next

47:25week.

47:26>> Okay. And that's before we meet as a

47:28council, right?

47:30Fourth?

47:30>> Seventh, you have the work session. So

47:32that that would work

47:34if you want to jump forward out there.

47:35>> So I'm going to record this. Do we want

47:38them to make a decision on part of this

47:40or all of this?

47:41>> I I think we hold off until we can

47:43present it at the time. Because so many

47:44of them are are related to that I think

47:46it's helpful to see them in their

47:47totality and think about them in their

47:49totality.

47:50>> So briefly, I don't know if anyone wants

47:52me to make a slide or you want to make a

47:54slide. Briefly said

47:56say we discussed two policies and we're

48:00thinking of

48:01but we're going to

48:02bring

48:03as a

48:04>> So, we want this to be on the work

48:06session agenda for November 19th.

48:10Is that our next

48:10>> Yeah, I thought we were going to do

48:12every work session we're going to report

48:14where we are.

48:16>> Well, I'm talking about actually going

48:17through this and having the the

48:18discussion discussion.

48:20>> There's one on the 16th. I don't think

48:22you were going to be [clears throat]

48:23there. It's a Monday. It's the same

48:24night as the Wake County Mayor

48:26>> I've got it.

48:26>> Oh, yeah. If you're not there, that's

48:28not helpful.

48:29>> I Wait a minute. I think I will be

48:31there.

48:32>> Okay.

48:33So, then

48:34and you can decide

48:36>> Yeah, I'm I'm not going to the Wake

48:39County session that night.

48:41Cuz that is an event night. They're

48:43going go-kart racing or something. I'm

48:45like, yeah, I'm out.

48:46>> I also I think we have

48:48>> [clears throat]

48:49>> one scheduled on the 12th, too.

48:52I think we did schedule that far out,

48:53which does not prevent us from also

48:56planning a new one on the third, but we

48:57do currently have one scheduled on the

48:5912th as well.

49:01>> November 12th? Really?

49:04>> Oh, we do. Yeah, Council Committee 5:15.

49:07>> Okay.

49:08>> So, do we

49:08>> Or the the fourth. I'm sorry. I said the

49:10third, but Wednesday the fourth.

49:12Do we need the one on the fourth?

49:13>> We can always cancel.

49:15>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, let's let's put

49:17it on there. We've got it on hold on all

49:20of our calendars. We don't want to lose

49:22our morning.

49:23>> That's three mornings.

49:25>> the next day. Can we make that a 1-hour

49:26meeting on the fourth?

49:28>> Yeah.

49:28>> Yeah.

49:30>> And so, I'm sorry. I derailed us a bit.

49:34Um

49:35we're then aiming to share our

49:39final version

49:41the final version of the draft with our

49:44Council colleagues on the 19th. Is that

49:46what I heard we're aiming for?

49:47>> 16th.

49:48>> 16th.

49:49>> Yeah. I'm I'm to shut up.

49:51>> [laughter]

49:52>> The 16th.

49:53>> The 16th.

49:53>> And we are talking about November,

49:54right?

49:55>> Yes.

49:56>> Okay.

49:57>> How is

49:57>> Unbelievably.

49:59>> On the 16th.

50:00>> Monday the 16th. Okay.

50:02>> Okay.

50:05>> 6:04. We did it, Jenny. All right.

50:07>> All right.

50:08>> All right, good job.

50:09>> Committee adjourned. Thank you.

50:10>> I would like I would like to flex it now

50:12that I have it.

50:13>> [laughter]