2026-09-14 - Council Committee Meeting

04:19discuss.

04:22>> So, are we good?

04:24>> Yes.

04:26>> 5:15. We'll call this subcommittee to

04:29order.

04:31One of the tasks we need to decide

04:33tonight that we've been asked is what is

04:35the name of this committee. So, I

04:38thought you and I could discuss that

04:39while we wait on our Sure.

04:42>> Um, it's about new policy or reviewing

04:46policy. So, it could be a policy

04:48committee or policy review committee.

04:50What do you think?

04:52>> Yeah, I mean, all of the above. Um, I

04:56mean, I've been calling it the

04:58compensation committee, but that doesn't

05:00quite capture all of our converation.

05:03So, I defer to you, mayor. Any any of

05:06those work for me. Do you have a

05:07suggestion staff to brainstorm some

05:09things

05:10>> to help but recommendations committee?

05:12>> Oh, that works too.

05:14>> If that works.

05:15>> Yeah.

05:18>> I mean, we we benefit from being

05:20currently the only council committee.

05:22So, it's not as if we have to

05:23distinguish oursel too prominently from

05:25all the other committees.

05:27>> Yeah. While we wait, a little history on

05:30committees. If you're not aware, we used

05:31to have two committees and it got where

05:34>> committees would discuss in depth and

05:36bring it to council and have a

05:38recommendation and the council would

05:40redisuss every detail. We're like this

05:43is kind of a waste of time if we're

05:45going to revisit everything we just did.

05:47>> Yes.

05:48>> So that's why we got rid of the

05:49committee.

05:50>> Yes.

05:51>> So we will recommend to Cararissa to

05:55recommend.

05:56>> Speaking of which, she is walking in

06:02So running a delay.

06:05We were trying to come up with a name

06:07for our subcommittee and staff has

06:10already brainstormed.

06:12>> Oh, good. [laughter]

06:13>> And and they recommend that we call this

06:16the recommendation committee. What do

06:19you think?

06:21>> Okay. It sounds like a con a consensus

06:24there.

06:26And do we have to go to council to name

06:29our committee? Since I appoint

06:31committees, can't I name it?

06:34>> You're um

06:35>> or I appoint task force.

06:37>> I think the committee among itself, but

06:39the council did not name it and it is

06:40directly related to your or you could

06:43mention it at the next okay

06:45>> work session, but it's something you

06:46don't I don't believe has to be voted

06:48on. It's just more of an FYI.

06:50>> Okay. We just wanted um we

06:54are asking for this to happen because

06:56there's just been a lot of just to give

06:58more clarity to what the role of the

07:00committee is.

07:02>> So that was plural by the way

07:04recommendations committee just so I have

07:06it correct.

07:07>> That's what we recommend. But if it

07:08>> that's fine with me. I just want to make

07:10sure I'm not misquing what we what we

07:14decided on.

07:15>> Okay. Um, when we left off last week, we

07:19each had homework and I didn't know who

07:21wanted to go first. You provided a big

07:24document which is good and it's

07:26available online.

07:27>> It is and I can pass it out. These are

07:30topics.

07:30>> Thank you for making such a generous

07:31stack.

07:33And so, Chissa, I don't care.

07:37>> Who goes Who goes first? How we tackle

07:39it?

07:40>> Okay.

07:42Well, Jenny is passing out what I titled

07:46here travel training and meals. So, that

07:48was the assignment I took on last week.

07:50So, I tried to organize it uh based on

07:53our conversation um where we had just

07:56talked about all the different factors

07:58we might have to consider. We talked

08:01about looking at peer communities. And

08:03so, who I wound up found finding good

08:06data for publicly available was Morris

08:09Soul, Chapel Hill, Durham, and

08:10Pittsburgh. So that was not a

08:13representative sample. That was a sample

08:15of convenience. These had uh published

08:19and uh well delineated travel policies

08:24or attendance policies or meeting

08:27policies something to at least give us

08:29some point of comparison or benchmark to

08:32other communities in our area. So how I

08:35organized this was

08:38I listed the item as under

08:40consideration. And so that was

08:43everything that we talked about in some

08:45manner last week of these are things

08:48we're going to have to think about.

08:50We're going to have to parse and define.

08:52So that's under consideration. I then

08:55have the chart that shows you for that

08:57consideration how the different

08:58municipalities might have addressed it

09:00or not. and then trying to shape based

09:05on that preliminary conversation we had

09:07last week what seemed to me to be the

09:10direction we were leaning in for a

09:13possible policy recommendation to the

09:16rest of our colleagues. So that's the

09:18format. So the first three there sort of

09:22apply to travel training and meals.

09:25they're generic. But then I've broken it

09:27down into subcategories and sub

09:30subcategories of travel. And then how do

09:33we think about local travel, which in my

09:36mind is mostly conference attendance? Um

09:39out of town travel, how do you define

09:41what is out of town? Um what kind of

09:44expenses are reimburseable or

09:46appropriate for out of town travel? How

09:49do we figure out dollar amounts or DMs?

09:52Uh then I broke it into training. And so

09:55we had talked about, you know, what

09:57kinds of trainings could be appropriate?

09:59How are we going to get approval? What

10:02does the approval process look like? Uh

10:05are we going to take everything to our

10:07peers? And so this captures maybe the

10:10notion of there could be some

10:12pre-approved trainings. You know, maybe

10:14we say school of government and CLM,

10:16those don't require a full council vote.

10:19Again, anything is up for consideration.

10:21How do we define what an appropriate

10:23training is? And then finally, the last

10:25category is local meals. And I broke

10:28this up into, you know, seats at a town

10:32purchase table. How do we think about

10:34that? How do we think about a community

10:37event that the town is not sponsoring?

10:40You've been invited to as individuals,

10:42but it requires a ticket or an admission

10:45or an individual seat to be purchased.

10:47Uh we've talked about with staff how

10:50we're going to think about conflicts of

10:52interest and this comes up mostly with

10:54our nonprofit partners that when they

10:56are receiving town funds but we're

10:58invited to their community event, how do

11:01we reconcile the two? Um and then I mean

11:05all of these categories have some need

11:09to define when is this event, this

11:12travel, this training relevant to

11:15council work. uh do we need to have a

11:18definition? And then one thing that

11:20might be particular to Carrie because I

11:22really did not find any other

11:24municipality

11:25that clearly defined this scenario is

11:29those informal meals, a working lunch

11:32with staff, a uh eating with a

11:35constituent.

11:37Do we want to capture that scenario as

11:40well? So those were all of the factors

11:43we talked about last time. I then listed

11:47Yeah. Yeah. Can I add on?

11:48>> Yeah, please.

11:50>> The gifts and favors thing. So let's say

11:54I'm invited to a religious group dinner.

11:58Is that a gift?

12:01>> Yes. So if we don't have a contract with

12:03them, that's acceptable gift. So the

12:06purpose of me is to show diversity and

12:10embracing their culture and everything.

12:12I'm not part of their religion. Have

12:14nothing to do with them. But as my role

12:17as mayor, I feel that that would be

12:18goodwill to do that. However, it's a

12:21gift and I can't. No, no, it's it's a

12:24gift, but the only gifts that are

12:27prohibited are gifts um that are from

12:29folks who are actual contractors with

12:30the town, intending to be contractors

12:33with the town or trying to influence

12:35your you in some, you know, monetary

12:38material.

12:39>> Nonprofits are okay

12:40>> if we don't have a contract.

12:42>> Oh, I was going to say because neighbor

12:44up is a big nonprofit, but we do have a

12:48contract with them.

12:49>> Okay.

12:51Uh, and so I've listed here under other

12:54considerations, something that I I

12:56didn't capture in the the previous

12:58categories, lots of the other

13:00municipalities specified what happens if

13:04the council member has a cancellation or

13:07a no-show.

13:08If the town can recoup those expenses,

13:11if they can't, is then the council

13:14member personally liable for those

13:15expenses for the cancellation or a

13:17no-show. So that might be another policy

13:20we want to consider. I listed some

13:22additional data we needed and so we

13:24talked last time about

13:27knowing the town staff meaning car's

13:30town staff uh travel policies their

13:32prediums how that is handled. Um

13:35Pittsburgh for example has a travel

13:37policy that does not differentiate

13:39between town staff uh and elected

13:43officials or even appointed board

13:45members. So that's clearly a reference

13:47point. Um or in some cases one and the

13:50same for other municipalities. Uh the

13:54legal definitions regarding conflicts of

13:56interest because that's going to get

13:57tricky in some of these categories.

13:59maybe you talk about too and it sounds

14:01like on our agenda that maybe you

14:03brought some of that historical data for

14:05us on what council expenses in these

14:08categories have been so that if we are

14:12setting caps thresholds

14:15um we have a a good idea of what an

14:18appropriate amount would be. So, Mayor,

14:21I know I've given you a lot, you and uh

14:25Council Member Con Johnson. We can

14:28proceed tonight however you would like.

14:30If we want to go home and digest this,

14:33we have multiple meetings on the

14:35calendar. So, we could come back and you

14:37could come back with notes. If we want

14:39to sit here tonight and take these item

14:40by item and get your thoughts, I I

14:44submit this to you and we can work on it

14:46however you see fit. So, so I was

14:48thinking maybe we all present what we

14:51have because I'm wondering if what I

14:54have is going to need more and that's

14:56actually a question and I'm looking at

15:00Miss Pal Johnson maybe her homework has

15:02the same sort of thing. Maybe you could

15:06report and we say yeah we need this and

15:08then we can start diving deep in each

15:11one of these because you've laid it out

15:13perfect.

15:13>> Okay. So to start diving deep and

15:16tackling each one of these. So

15:18>> I had I think a similar experience. What

15:21I

15:23>> learned was there are as many different

15:26ways to approach this as there are

15:28municipalities, right?

15:31>> And so what I stopped I started doing it

15:34through a what would work for Carrie

15:36wins and I stopped and instead I just

15:38went on a fact gathering mission. It's

15:40really just additional context to what

15:42you already brought to the last meeting.

15:44>> And you know, for example, a tidbit I

15:48found, you know, I took some of the

15:50information, I gave it to AI, and I

15:51said, "What are our peer municipalities

15:53doing?" And I defined peer for it in a

15:56couple of different ways, trying to

15:58elicit a different answer because the

15:59answer, no matter how I sliced and diced

16:01the information, was it's all over the

16:04map. And there's a lot of different ways

16:05that they go about compensation and

16:08stipens and you know reimbursements and

16:11allowances. And I'll give you an example

16:13and I highlighted it in my document

16:15which I'll share with you. But there was

16:17one commonality and that was a handful

16:20of pre-approved events

16:22>> for travel, you know, that if a council

16:25wants to attend um and I tried to keep

16:28this to councils, but the information on

16:32county governments was more plentiful.

16:34>> Yes.

16:35>> Right. Mhm.

16:36>> So, I thought that was a just my only

16:40additive thing to what you've very

16:42thoroughly laid out in this document.

16:44Having a pre-approved list

16:47>> and then everything else is decided by

16:52council where necessary I think probably

16:54makes a lot of sense. And what the one

16:56of the um one of the things I found is

16:59the annual NCLM conference you uh school

17:02of government like Leela and othermies

17:06um national there's municipal sum

17:08summits and a couple of common official

17:13council delegation trips for example an

17:16inner city trip or something like that

17:18were on sort of a pre-approved list

17:21>> and then there were parameters for the

17:23remainder in council

17:25voted on them and I thought that did

17:27make some sense.

17:28>> Yeah,

17:29>> I I agree. You know, we had talked last

17:31week about perhaps we have an individual

17:35how whatever terminology we want to use

17:38cap allocation allowance um per council

17:42member that

17:45expenses in these categories would apply

17:47toward.

17:48>> Correct. uh you get into the minutia and

17:52realize again there's many different

17:54ways of doing it. So I I will commend

17:58our counterparts in Morrisville. They

18:00just recently adopted a very robust

18:04travel and training policy. So I will

18:06thank them for uh the hard work that

18:08they've already done and I think that

18:10there's probably a lot of that work that

18:12we can at the very least use as a

18:14reference. Um, and so they have set a

18:18$2,000

18:20travel and training allowance per

18:21council member. It requires council

18:24approval if it's not previously budgeted

18:26and it's over $500

18:29and they have city vision as a

18:33exception. So, one of the things we'll

18:36have to consider is if we did generate a

18:39pre-approved list of events, does that

18:43still apply then to the individual

18:46members allowance or are we saying that

18:48is separate from the allowance that the

18:50town pays for these out of a different

18:52budget category because they're

18:54preapproved and everything besides those

18:58is then the discretion of the individual

19:00member to apply to their allowance or do

19:02we say yes, these are preapproved, but

19:05they still count towards your total.

19:06>> Right. I'd be really interested to hear

19:09the full council's opinion on that. I I

19:11know and it the reason why I say it like

19:14that is because there are individuals on

19:16council that have areas of interest,

19:19>> you know, whether it's public

19:21transportation and events that pertain

19:24to mass transit or anything like that,

19:27whe it's water conferences, it's, you

19:29know, so so individuals

19:32>> might have very valuable events or

19:36conferences they want to go to

19:38>> that I'm honest test I put on customer

19:42conferences, they ranged in price from

19:44300 to a,000 bucks. Like it really

19:47really depends on the, you know, the

19:50thing

19:51>> and if there's a an allowance, if

19:53there's a bucket of money, if you if you

19:55have one expensive thing you really want

19:57to go to,

20:01>> it's your bucket of money, you know, as

20:03long as council says yes, that's

20:05valuable. And then I think just having

20:08the discussion um when we go to to

20:10decide as a group, hey, I'd like to do

20:13this thing. I say I want to go to the

20:15ABC concert. And then there we can

20:18establish sort of a not necessarily an

20:21ordained expectation, but sort of a

20:23common expectation that I bring back

20:25information and I share with my peers.

20:27Mhm.

20:27>> I know for work travel I'm expected to

20:31give impressions and learnings

20:32[clears throat] and stuff like that with

20:34my team.

20:35>> I mean we when we go back we don't have

20:38to say here are our recommendations. We

20:40can go here are our recommendations and

20:43>> yep

20:43>> you have these options for this and

20:45these options for this.

20:47that that does a lot of the work and so

20:50we can choose as a council

20:52>> and we can explain the pros and cons of

20:55each one of the options.

20:57>> I think if we do that we've done

20:59>> due diligence.

21:03>> Okay. Talk about compensation before we

21:06do divor.

21:08>> Sure. Well, let me share share with you.

21:11Um,

21:12formatted differently, but similar to

21:16Britney, the more I dug in, the more I

21:17said, "Oh,

21:19I stopped adding information to this

21:22eventually because I'm sorry I didn't

21:25print a whole bunch of them." And you'll

21:27notice that the printer wasn't acting

21:29up. I do have an extra copy I can share

21:31with you.

21:31>> I'll get stuff that should have been

21:33blue turned yellow.

21:34>> Put it online.

21:35>> Yes,

21:36>> I can send the digital copy, too. I

21:38think I have enough. Oh, here here's an

21:39extra.

21:44So, I you know,

21:47I don't mean this to be an excuse, but

21:49it really is a rabbit hole. Started,

21:53like I said, trying to find uh

21:55compensation.

21:57Um uh and I apologize, I am not well, so

22:01I am barely able to string a sentence

22:03together, it seems, at this time of day.

22:05Um what I I stopped doing was going what

22:08would be great for Carrie and it was

22:11kind of

22:13I felt like I might have been um

22:15approaching this task with confirmation

22:17bias. So I pulled back and said okay

22:19let's start from where Britney already

22:21had her jumping off point. What's the

22:23statute? What's allowed? What isn't?

22:25Interestingly, I found um and coats

22:28cannons, I found there's actually

22:31differences between changing a council's

22:34a council member's compensation versus

22:37mayors. You have to approve your

22:38changes, by the way.

22:40>> Ours can just be changed. Um but you

22:42have to approve yours. So, it's just

22:44interesting. There was some nuance

22:45there. But what I found was there it

22:48ranges just like we were talking about

22:50before. I don't think there's any

22:52surprises there. There wasn't a whole

22:54lot of things that were different. So

22:57shared practices. Mayor makes a little

22:59bit more than council. You know, one and

23:01a quarter to 1.5x of what the council

23:04member salary is. Mayor Prom has a small

23:08but not terribly meaningful boost. Um

23:12where there was differences came in the

23:15form of benefits.

23:18Um not that council members didn't have

23:22benefits. It ranged from fully funded

23:24town benefits to an elers program, which

23:27I'd never heard of before. Um,

23:30basically, uh, local government

23:32employees program, which is very, I

23:35think, similar to how staff members are

23:38insured. Um, you have to have a,000

23:42hours on average to qualify for it. So,

23:45it really ranged everything from,

23:48you know, straight up paid by the by the

23:50town or city to um different ways to go

23:53about the coverage. Uh when it came down

23:56to the actual individual stipens, it was

24:01we were at the very high end of the car

24:04allowance, for example. But the car

24:05allowance wasn't $100 a month. It was

24:08typically I saw everything from $3 to

24:11$600 700 just depending. Uh, one of the

24:14important things that I finally

24:17understand and I've shared this with

24:18some constituents that have shared

24:20concerns is they they don't understand

24:22that this is not um untaxed income. So

24:25IRS rules are that these allowances and

24:29these stipens are taxed. So there's

24:31that's just something to consider. I

24:33know we think of them as not salary and

24:36I know a lot of constituents and

24:38residents are looking at this and

24:40saying, "Well, that's not salary." Well,

24:41it it really does once it comes to my

24:44bank account and it hits my taxes and

24:47I'm hit with a tax bill on it, it does

24:49behave like salary. So that's one of the

24:52other challenges is looking at how we

24:55are examining these things differently

24:59and being fair to everyone involved

25:02ranging from we should just be paid a

25:04flat salary without any allowances to

25:07everything should be broken down to the

25:09penny on what we're being compensated

25:12for. There's a lot of variability in

25:14there in what we're calling it, but at

25:16the end of the day, there's absolutely

25:17no difference

25:20on my W2.

25:22>> Oh, yeah. Totally agree.

25:24>> It's just tax income on my W2. And I

25:26there and that is by IRS rules. So,

25:29there is no other way to do that.

25:31>> Um, so I just wanted to

25:33>> share that that that was my one of my

25:35bigger takeaways that it is not

25:37inherently different for a purpose

25:41really. The these allowances were done

25:43years ago.

25:44>> Yeah.

25:45>> And if you'd asked me last year at this

25:47time, how much you get in car allowance,

25:49tax allowance? I don't know.

25:50>> No. And I I don't know if they've been

25:52raised or lowered or how long they've

25:54been at the rate they're at. Yeah. Or

25:55why they're at the rate they're at.

25:56>> If you ask me how much I made total in

25:59the year, I go, "Oh, yeah. My W2."

26:02>> So, yeah, it was looked at as a salary.

26:05>> And I have been sharing my W2 with folks

26:07like this is what I know, right? Here's

26:09here's the salary. Here's the $27,000.

26:13Here's the several thousand dollar in

26:14taxes. That's all I know. You know, and

26:17I do believe when I was first elected,

26:22staff supplied me with a breakdown of

26:25what the allowances were and such, and

26:27they were by pay period.

26:31>> So, it was also not you get $82 a month.

26:36it was you get X amount per pay period

26:39in these allowances and this is what

26:42it's covering. So I think that's another

26:45thing for us to be mindful of is how

26:48we're expressing the number.

26:49>> When I was on the interwebs looking at

26:51this stuff, everybody everybody showed

26:54it as a monthly number.

26:56>> Um I didn't find any instances where it

26:58was a bi-weekly or or expressed in any

27:01other way. Um the so the the car

27:04allowance which I just got off track

27:07from I I quoted in here is $3 to $700 a

27:11month. Um it was really I'd say the most

27:16common was that $4 to $600 range.

27:19>> I believe that's because it's to

27:23compensate for insurance

27:25>> and for gas and wear and tear in your

27:28vehicle. I do what I'd like to see and

27:31which I didn't see anybody really doing

27:33in any of the peer communities was doing

27:35an actual mileage reimbursement.

27:38>> I did not see very much of that outside

27:40of travel when they're inside town

27:42limits that seem to be covered by a

27:45vehicle reimbursement policy by the

27:47majority of them. Is that what you found

27:48as well? Yeah, and we talked about this

27:50a little bit last time that that statute

27:52is written that you can opt for when an

27:58elected body is exercising its authority

28:01to set its compensation. You can opt for

28:04either a reimbursement policy or a fixed

28:08allowance policy. And I think for

28:11simplicity's sake, almost everyone has

28:14opted for that fixed policy option.

28:18Yes.

28:19>> And because it's then a fixed allowance,

28:23it does not require you to track your

28:25mileage because you're not being

28:27reimbursed for actual expenses. You're

28:30being granted an allowance for

28:32anticipated expenses in a category.

28:34>> Yes. Um, and yeah, and I what I noticed

28:38was it

28:40replaces the per mile

28:43>> um IRS driven reimbursement, but I mean,

28:47we could consider some kind of odometer

28:50log.

28:52>> I mean, I'm of the mindset the simpler

28:54the better.

28:55>> I don't think

28:56>> I would have like I would like to

28:57eliminate these.

28:59>> Yeah, I would too. But I I I don't

29:00believe I've seen any constituents

29:02advocating um even where they're even

29:06those that are not advocating for a um a

29:09flat salary and just there also I've not

29:12seen anybody saying you should keep an a

29:14log of the miles you drove and

29:17>> you know then it puts us in a precarious

29:19on your honor

29:20>> uh situation and I don't think that's

29:22particularly helpful for our goals.

29:24>> That's like saying okay let's just pay

29:26ourselves about the hour.

29:28>> Come on. Yeah. Punching in out somehow.

29:31Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's

29:33reasonable.

29:34>> The technology allowance um somewhere an

29:37annual allowance, which I believe is the

29:39case with our staff, even if it's paid

29:42um

29:44in increments. It's still an annual

29:46allowance. I think that the most of them

29:48were pretty in line with ours. They

29:49weren't terribly different. Um again,

29:53two, you know,$1 to $2 a month when

29:55expressed as a per month um amount. I

29:58don't know that the

30:02I think I I what I didn't get a chance

30:05to to do was go and find information

30:09about

30:11cell phones.

30:12>> And so I I sort of went and stopped and

30:14I go, well, how often are we are people

30:17given a cell phone

30:18>> or how are they managing the technology

30:21separate to personal technology? Uh, I

30:24started to dig into that just a little

30:25bit and then like I really wasn't

30:27feeling so hot this weekend. So, I

30:28didn't get too far into that. That's

30:30something I'd like to add to my

30:32follow-up homework list is um

30:36that's the one where I'm a little bit

30:37like I' I've got a cell phone. [snorts]

30:40>> I'm paying for it anyways. There is no

30:42additional costs incurred by me having a

30:46separate app on here to make phone

30:47calls. But perhaps we want to consider a

30:51townisssued

30:52cell phone for those who'd like it. And

30:55if so, um that would should probably be

30:58written into whatever policy we develop.

31:00>> Yeah, that that would be to me a legal

31:03question. So if I don't have a county

31:05issued phone and somebody thinks I have

31:09a public record on here that I haven't

31:11disclosed, they can take my phone. Is

31:14that right?

31:15>> Would need to be a court. it would be

31:16order at that point.

31:18>> But um even if you kept two separate

31:20phones

31:22>> that you said were personal and one was

31:25public um you know if a court found that

31:29they thought well you might have some

31:30town stuff on your personal phone

31:32>> you there there's nothing that truly

31:34protects a personal phone if there might

31:37be public records on it.

31:38>> And and to dig deeper on that even

31:41though we're not digging deeper.

31:43>> Yeah. I

31:46pretty much if I feel that something is

31:48a public record, I copy it, send it a

31:52email, and Jenny knows this. Um, just to

31:56make sure all my public records are off

31:58my phone. And then we got all these

32:00public records requests. And then I just

32:03did all emails. I think that was even

32:06the question. And a lot of it was, "Hey,

32:09can you call me?" Yes, I could call. You

32:10know, those are not really public

32:12records, right? But I sent them all.

32:14>> So I'm kind of wondering if in the

32:17policy discussion if we should talk

32:19about that. If if we're not going to do

32:22separate phones or even if we do,

32:25>> what should we do? Um if you get

32:27something like somebody sends you

32:30something that's basically a public

32:32record, town business in a text, we

32:35should do something within a certain

32:37amount of time.

32:39>> I don't know what law says. Well,

32:42>> but the law says it's a public record,

32:44but it doesn't say it has to go to Jenny

32:47in X number of days or hours or

32:50>> if you keep it on your in your personal

32:53if someone sends you an a work a town

32:56email to your personal email address or

32:58a text um to you at a personal phone

33:02number, then if you don't send it over

33:05to Jenny in some way, shape or form,

33:07then it is your responsibility to keep

33:09and manage that record for the

33:11applicable time period, whatever that

33:13might be.

33:14>> Anyway, I was

33:16>> which is exactly why I went separate

33:18phone number, separate application and

33:20not co-mingling the two because um it

33:23would be very easy to say here have at

33:25it. You know, anything that's in here is

33:30public work, right? But it is

33:32challenging because you have to

33:33constantly tell people not this phone

33:34number, not this phone number, not this

33:35phone number. Um but they they caught

33:38one, right? So it wasn't that hard. It

33:40only took me a few months to make the

33:41switch over, so it's pretty

33:43straightforward. But we're we're

33:45discussing

33:47the actual um compensation, but I I will

33:50take I'll take that away as sort of a to

33:54look at the cell phone separately for

33:56the technology and communications.

33:58Um, and and really to that end, you

34:01know, highspeed internet, my printer,

34:04honestly, my printer, this is the first

34:06time I think I've ever used it for a

34:08town business except for to print

34:09remarks, you know, when I when I print

34:11those out. So, you know, even stuff like

34:13that, again, it's something I just have.

34:15I can understand

34:1715 or 20 years ago where people would

34:19have to adopt technology they wouldn't

34:21normally be paying for anyways. So, I

34:24would just say, you know, I'd like to

34:25hear kind of your your initial thoughts

34:27on whether a technology allowance at all

34:30is

34:32necessary. And could we potentially

34:34replace it with a town device allow like

34:39if you need a town computer, here it is.

34:42Or if you need a town tablet, here it

34:43is. Or if you need a town cell phone,

34:45otherwise you know, sort of on your own

34:47and and just remove that part of it.

34:50>> Does that make sense?

34:52I'm all about simple no I'm easy.

34:55>> Yeah. As long as, and I don't think

34:58you're arguing this, it wouldn't compel

35:00a council member to have to accept the

35:03device.

35:04>> Right. Right.

35:05>> That if they elected without a specified

35:07allowance for it to continue to use

35:09their own personal device out of

35:10personal preference that they could do

35:12that.

35:12>> Yeah. Yeah. Nobody nobody wants to be

35:15forced to use a computer. [laughter]

35:19Completely understand that. Um and then

35:22moving on, I I just I included in here

35:24sort of the reimbursement plan

35:26information I stumbled upon for events.

35:29It's not much. Um and Derma has had a

35:32pretty clear policy which didn't print

35:34there, but I'll get that for you. Um

35:35[clears throat] the structural policy.

35:38So, I was trying to find peer

35:42municipalities.

35:44It's difficult because we're in the top,

35:48you know,

35:50eight,

35:51>> seven now. Um, but we're we're much

35:54smaller than than the biggest. Um, and

35:56we're not that much bigger than the ones

35:58just near us. And they're they're a bit

36:01all over the board. Um, and there was no

36:05uniformity that I found.

36:07um not in benefits offered, not in you

36:10know stipens, but what I did find

36:12>> when you say benefits, are you talking

36:14car allowance, tech allowance,

36:16>> dental? Health dental was where I went.

36:19>> Yeah. Yeah.

36:20>> No, I mean any of the um you know, not

36:23just a paycheck stuff.

36:26>> Uh it was often I don't know why, but it

36:27was often called fringe benefits, which

36:30I had a different definition of what

36:31that term meant

36:33>> than [snorts] than what I found. But the

36:36the ones that I found that were probably

36:38closer to us were, you know, Raleigh

36:41were not that far off. Um, but were paid

36:44significantly less less, but they just

36:46did a pay

36:49reorg. I don't know what to call it. I

36:51think it was 2022. So, that was very

36:53recent. But here's my big takeaway after

36:57digging into that a little bit. And I

36:58think this was um mentioned by a couple

37:00of our colleagues. What they have is

37:03citizen-led

37:06citizen-led groups that are determining

37:10benefits and pay for council

37:13so that council isn't making um their

37:16own

37:18pay decisions kind of in a vacuum. And I

37:23do believe, especially since we have

37:24time between now and the budget, I do

37:27believe after reading through some of

37:28them that it might make some sense to do

37:30it this way. uh particularly looking at

37:34some of our immediate peer

37:36cities um they they did take this

37:39approach uh Raleigh took this approach

37:43um in particular and they've got a lot

37:45of information you found their appendix

37:47there's a lot of information there I do

37:49think with the need for transparency and

37:53the scrutiny that we're we're under

37:55right now I do believe bringing a group

37:58of citizens in to determine our pay and

38:00and other types of compensation um to

38:03get it done to be adopted in the in the

38:06next budget is probably the most

38:11neutral thing to do.

38:13>> Yeah. Excuse me. One of the things that

38:17got us to our current policy was trying

38:19to take the politics out of it and we

38:21were trying to do it ourselves. We made

38:23the policy to take effect after the next

38:26election so that if you didn't like the

38:28policy, you could throw us out.

38:31>> So, I like the idea of the citizens

38:33group because again, that takes the

38:35politics out of it because before that

38:38>> council didn't get a raise for over 10

38:40years,

38:40>> right?

38:41>> And that's wrong.

38:41>> And then the raise is 3%. It's it's

38:44certainly not I wouldn't call it a

38:45raise. It's it's a minimal cola at most.

38:49>> I know since I've been on council, I

38:51would call that. So, so I think one of

38:53the goals in my mind is to take the

38:55politics out. Yeah.

38:56>> And to do something fair and who

38:58determines that's fair if it's a citizen

39:00committee. Hey, that's good with me.

39:03>> A lot of the municipalities did it for

39:05future councils where they did make that

39:07decision. So, they weren't they weren't

39:09also weren't making the decision for

39:11themselves.

39:12>> They were making it for future um to go

39:15into effect when um unless reelected

39:18that the individuals wouldn't be

39:19affected. Um, I thought that, you know,

39:21if we want to take the approach of

39:24determining ourselves, I don't think

39:26that's the right way to go because we

39:28need to act on this and we need to act

39:30on it as soon as we are allowed to by

39:32statute, which would be during a

39:34repeating what you uncovered last week.

39:36We cannot by North Carolina law change

39:39our compensation at any other time

39:41except for when we adopt a new fiscal

39:43year budget. Correct? Did I say that

39:45right? Okay,

39:45>> that's correct. Although you might be

39:47able to, if you're trying to have

39:48something go into effect after the next

39:50election, you may be able to sort of set

39:54the salary from July 1st through the end

39:56of the year or through December 1st and

39:59then have the salary change.

40:01>> Oh, as long as it's adopted with the

40:03budget, we probably could do an

40:05immediate and then a long-term salary

40:07adjustment,

40:07>> right?

40:09>> I read the statute a couple of times and

40:11it was it wasn't it's one little

40:12paragraph. It's not a whole lot that

40:14pertains to this. So, it seemed like

40:15that would be pretty straightforward

40:17except for I think that you also have to

40:18vote to approve your own. If I read the

40:21statute correctly,

40:22>> vote to approve.

40:24>> The mayor seems to have

40:25>> I have to check that early. It's um

40:28they're different um different mayors

40:30are treated differently in different

40:32cities. As you know, in Apex, the mayor

40:33does not vote on mayors.

40:35>> So, I have to I'll have to go back and

40:37read what they're referring to and see

40:39if it applies in an Apex kind of city

40:40versus a car. That's probably what

40:42they're talking about, right? Because

40:43you don't vote on anything,

40:45>> right? Because cuz the apex mayor

40:47doesn't ever vote on anything.

40:48>> And so this is saying you'll have to

40:50vote,

40:50>> right? So it may not apply for care

40:53>> just in case since I was doing legal

40:55research. I was so excited to print that

40:57and bring that to you. [laughter]

41:00>> I was like, huh, I don't think it's I

41:02don't think it's significant. I think

41:03it's probably just a check box to make

41:05sure we're following the rules. Um, and

41:07again, I I I kept the term fringe

41:09benefits in here, not because I I I just

41:11it's what it's what a lot of um non

41:14North Carolina cities seem to be calling

41:17the additional things like the um you

41:20know, like this the stipen we have um

41:22for

41:24health and wellness, like you know, the

41:26non insurance um up to $3,500 a year,

41:30that type of stuff. Um

41:32the

41:40benchmarking was also difficult.

41:44Lori Bush did a little bit of work on

41:47some benchmarking information as well.

41:49And so I'll share that spreadsheet that

41:51she shared with me. Uh it agreed with

41:54everything that I was able to find. She

41:56went outside of North Carolina uh more

41:59than I did. I I remained mostly inside

42:01of North Carolina because once I I left

42:03it, I felt like it was no longer pure

42:06benchmarking. I felt

42:09um

42:11because a lot of them have different

42:12forms of government and then I couldn't

42:14get a good handle on who has a a form of

42:16government like ours um where and trying

42:20to confirm who was and wasn't part-time

42:21I was finding challenging. It's

42:23interesting what is and is not on the

42:25internet. Um, for example, I think until

42:28all of this started and and we discussed

42:30such things, I think people wouldn't be

42:32clear to people that we were part time.

42:33>> I was about to say I could not find

42:36Lisa, correct me if I'm wrong, I do not

42:38find the words part-time

42:41in our policies defining our council

42:46manager form of government and our terms

42:48of service. And I I didn't find anything

42:51actually that specifies work

42:53expectations.

42:55And so [laughter]

42:58is that then just essentially custom

43:01that's evolved over time? I mean, mayor,

43:03you talk about and I don't know what

43:04year this is when the decision was made

43:07for the mayor and council members not to

43:09have any office space in town hall

43:12because previously that had been

43:14available.

43:14>> We had an office that council members

43:17use. Mayors before me use it a lot more

43:20than I did and I didn't use it except

43:23for meetings

43:25>> and so it really wasn't necessary

43:27because we could use a conference office

43:28and we are in desperate need of office

43:30space. So we gave it up.

43:33>> The only problem is what do you do with

43:34all the awards given to the town

43:36[laughter]

43:37the whole display case of stuff?

43:39>> I remember what it used to look like.

43:43>> No, I don't know that there's anything

43:44in statute. um different cities

43:47individual charters may say something I

43:50ours does not ours speak to that and I I

43:53think most probably don't

43:54>> and [clears throat] so you know it's at

43:56the it's each council member and each

43:58mayor's decision as to how much time

44:00they spend

44:02>> on council business

44:05>> the North Carolina League of

44:07Municipalities

44:08basically broke down the

44:12high level

44:14approach that different municipalities

44:16in North Carolina take into three

44:18buckets. One was a per meeting fee.

44:21Just saying that's an option.

44:23>> Okay.

44:23>> By being compensated by or or by the

44:26hour to hold more meetings, right?

44:29[laughter]

44:31>> Um you know at one one I I do one of

44:35them was X amount for a regular meeting

44:36and X amount for a special meeting which

44:38I thought was strange. Um and then you

44:43know the hybrid model is also a thing uh

44:46base amount and then stipens for extra

44:49responsibilities for example and that's

44:51something just I'm just in the in the

44:53spirit of being thorough I am not

44:55suggesting we increase our compensation

44:57for these things but other

44:59municipalities um do have an additional

45:02stipened

45:03>> they seem to be similar to what the

45:04mayor prom gets um that sort of little

45:07bit of almost an honorarium

45:09>> um for things like being on a quasi

45:11judicial board, being appointed to

45:13regional boards and other extra work.

45:16Um, and I I feel as though the way AI

45:21kind of pulled it together for me and I

45:23was like, why? Where? Show me the show

45:25me the link. And I was trying to sort of

45:26decipher the why. And I think in some

45:29municipalities there are individuals who

45:31do quite a bit more than others. And so

45:34that probably grew out of a desire to

45:37compensate those that are putting in

45:39more hours or doing more representative

45:41work um just a little bit more I think

45:44is probably why I'm not suggesting we do

45:46that. I'm just saying that was and it's

45:47it's in in your sheet here too. Um and

45:51that's you know really again I came to

45:53no conclusions um other than there are a

45:56lot a lot of ways to do this um and

45:59something at the end of the day I'd like

46:01to really keep in mind that

46:06we I don't know what any tax

46:08repercussions could be. I know I've

46:10already uh the first two years I was on

46:12council, I owned a very sizable tax bill

46:15because the the you know I was taxed as

46:17though I made $26,000 a year. Um and I

46:21make a lot more than that in in the real

46:23world um outside the real world in my

46:25day job. Um and so just I don't know

46:30what tax implications there might be,

46:31but I think it's something to to take a

46:33look into just to make sure we're I'm

46:35not making a goofy error in my research.

46:40So, thank you for your patience as I

46:41stumbled through that now.

46:42>> No, no, no that was good. The the only

46:45thing thing I would ask same thing I

46:47asked Mr. Richards, what do you think we

46:49need? What more information do you think

46:51we need before we do the deep dive and

46:53start crafting recommendations? I I

46:56think we need a temperature check like a

46:58straw poll almost because

47:00>> of

47:01>> of what especially if we as a committee

47:03are going to bring a recommendation to

47:05council and we have heard some opinions

47:08you know and what people are leaning

47:10towards on the council. I think

47:15not that I'm trying to make a decision

47:17based off of cursory research but I know

47:19you've already dove in a bit. I've dove

47:20in there's I don't think there's a lot

47:22of stones to be unturned at this point

47:24>> and if we have an idea of how we're

47:26leaning um at this point I don't believe

47:29it would be confirmation bias to go

47:31fully research what about this as a

47:33policy what are the drawbacks of this

47:35policy because for me if we're if we're

47:38going to recommend a policy to the whole

47:39council what I want to make sure we

47:41investigate is what are the points of

47:44failure what is the the you know the

47:46things I might not be considering that

47:48could be problematic if we go about this

47:50way. Sort of the good and the bad. Um,

47:52so yeah.

47:54>> So, sort of to follow up on that, I'm

47:58still on the citizen committee. If you

48:00have a citizen committee, do you say go

48:04figure this out or do you say

48:07go figure it out with the goals of one,

48:10be fair,

48:12>> and two, uh, try to make sure that we

48:15don't exclude anybody from running for

48:18public office? Yes.

48:19>> And those would be the two things I

48:21would be concerned about. I mean, I did

48:24well. I'm retired. Yeah. I'm living off

48:26social security and you could cut mine

48:28to the bone. It's not going to make a

48:31difference in my life. But somebody who

48:33might want to run for office,

48:35>> who's giving up half their salary to run

48:37for office, that might be a big

48:39difference. Yeah.

48:40>> And I don't want to see that happen. I

48:42don't want good people not to be able to

48:44run.

48:45So that if if we do the citizen

48:47committee thing, I think they got to

48:49have guidelines

48:51>> and then they can make recommendations.

48:52But I I think that is a great

48:55>> start there. I love that. I'd love to

48:57know what the other council members

49:00think about that. That might be a

49:01recommendation

49:03uh that we can put forth early

49:06>> and uh say that hey, we recommend this

49:08committee figure out for the next

49:10election cycle after this council,

49:12whoever's next, this is what we let them

49:16come up with the um policy

49:19>> and and we could choose to adopt that

49:21policy.

49:22>> Yeah.

49:23>> You know, I don't believe we have to

49:26wait for future councils to adopt a

49:28citizen.

49:30What do you think? Like if it's a

49:31citizen-led policy and they developed, I

49:34think we should probably be pretty

49:35comfortable just adopting that for the

49:37entire council.

49:38>> We do have a council member that gave up

49:39half their salary and that worries me.

49:43>> Yeah.

49:43>> Is that going to force that person to

49:45resign or put them in a financial

49:47hardship?

49:48>> That worries me. But I think that

49:51probably a a likely outcome in that

49:53scenario if they were to reduce our our

49:56salary down to almost nothing

49:59way way low. What you'll end up with is

50:03either individuals choosing not to serve

50:05because of the financial hardship it

50:06would create or serving with less

50:09capacity um because of uh inability to

50:12put in as many hours. Um I think what

50:15you suggested we create some kind of

50:17policy on you know records and all that.

50:20That's another thing. We don't have any

50:23if this is a choose your own adventure

50:25role.

50:26>> Yeah. We we're required to come to

50:30four meetings a month, right? Um

50:33>> well, no, you don't have to come.

50:35>> We don't have Well, [laughter]

50:38that's the that's the job, so to speak,

50:40right?

50:40>> It is. But you don't have to come.

50:42>> What if we didn't come? What if we got

50:44elected and never showed up to anything?

50:46>> Yeah, I'm sure that has happened in

50:47North Carolina cities at some point.

50:49>> So, so I've been a part

50:50>> still get paid

50:51>> of committees and councils before the

50:55internet well before a lot of things

50:58were online and I've seen committee

51:00members and council members come to the

51:02meeting and we had a packet and open

51:04their packet for the first time. It was

51:07sealed and I'm like in shock. You know,

51:11you haven't looked at this. we're going

51:13to vote on this tonight and you have not

51:15looked at it and then they would proceed

51:17to ask all the questions that should

51:20have been asked well before you get you

51:22know I've seen that so it can happen

51:26that I truly believe that um it's you're

51:30only as prepared as the amount of hours

51:32you're will just reading the agenda

51:34through and clicking through everything

51:35and reading the staff reports is a

51:37couple hours

51:39>> it depending on the size of the meeting

51:41it could be more than a couple So, um

51:43[clears throat] I don't I don't believe

51:44a typical if you if you ask 10 citizens,

51:48they probably don't realize the the prep

51:50work. They probably assume a lot of

51:52times, but maybe not the extent to which

51:54um and then setting well then I'll set

51:56aside the public events is is a choose

51:59your own adventure. You know, if you if

52:01you wish you have more demands on

52:04>> I was thinking in my mind how much is it

52:06depends on the time of year with me. How

52:08much is town business is how much is

52:10ceremonial?

52:11>> And would you have somebody that goes,

52:13"Screw that. I'm not doing any of the

52:15ceremonial. You didn't pay me anything

52:17to do that. I have to go to work.

52:19>> I can't do that."

52:20>> You know, is that a good thing? Yeah.

52:23>> Well, I I think it gets back to though

52:25to your point about clearly defining

52:29what a

52:31theoretical citizen resident

52:34commission's work would be because I

52:37think we could begin with the premise

52:40that we're affirming the value that our

52:42elected officials deserve fair

52:44compensation.

52:46Let's make sure that that fair amount

52:49reflects whatever uh is relevant to that

52:54formula. Benchmarking our peer

52:56communities. Carrie sets a living wage

52:59for our town employees every year. But

53:02if we affirm that they are determining

53:05what that fair amount is, not that a

53:08fair amount is in question. I mean to me

53:12it's I I don't see a scenario in which a

53:15commission would determine that our

53:18compensation should be significantly

53:20less than it is now because we are not

53:23currently an outlier with our peer

53:24communities right

53:26>> um you know I mean that would be a

53:27scenario if we were this anomaly and I

53:30mean we were way out there and we needed

53:34this commission to rein us in I mean

53:36currently we are right in line with no

53:39matter how you define peer community.

53:41We're we're you know in the pack

53:44>> um

53:44>> of total compensation

53:46>> of total compensation but so it might be

53:48a matter of adjusting within that total

53:51category how much is allocated to salary

53:54how much is allocated to allowances or

53:56any allowances

53:58um but I think if that is the charge of

54:01the commission then we don't end up in a

54:04scenario where they say and now we

54:06expect our council to be an all

54:08volunteer elected board. Well, and just

54:10as a reminder, um, you can't create a

54:13commission that can usurp your authority

54:15to set the budget for the town. So, the

54:18council, no matter what the commission

54:20comes up with, it would just be a

54:22recommendation. They cannot find you.

54:24>> Um, you know, you would make the final

54:26decision and decide what the budget is

54:28going to say about the council salary.

54:29>> And you could create another commission

54:31if you wanted to or future council's

54:33commit. Well, and and I I do believe,

54:36you know, I do believe any average group

54:40of citizens would be fair. Now, there

54:42are individuals that would act in bad

54:44faith in any community. That's not, you

54:47know, Carrie's not special, that

54:49everyone is 1,000%

54:52um nonpartisan and completely honest and

54:54all that, but I I don't believe that a

54:56folk group could be assembled of

54:58individuals that would act in bad faith

55:01um without us

55:04somehow doing I don't know how that

55:06could that could happen. So, I'm not

55:07terribly concerned about that. Mhm.

55:09>> Um because as long as there's a large

55:12enough group that they can work

55:14>> or they necess don't if we don't expect

55:16them to be completely unanimous I think

55:18we'll be

55:19>> we'll be good. And I honestly I couldn't

55:22guess what they would a completely

55:24nonpartisan group of carry citizens even

55:26if it is partisan, you know, but equally

55:29partisan coming together. I really don't

55:31know what they would what they would

55:32come up with. Um, but I would, if I had

55:36to guess, I would think it would be very

55:37similar to what we're currently paying.

55:39Yeah. If I'm being totally honest.

55:40>> Yeah, that's my hunch as well.

55:41>> If you look at the top, as you go down

55:44the top 10, we fall right in line.

55:46>> It's almost like a graph by population.

55:48Yeah. Yeah.

55:50>> I I even tried to do a little math. I'm

55:52like, is it like a per person?

55:54[laughter] Is there an isish dollar

55:55amount per person?

55:56>> That too. I had that analysis actually.

55:59>> You did?

55:59>> Yeah.

56:00>> It didn't work for me.

56:01>> It didn't [laughter] work. So as the

56:03communities got smaller, the per person

56:05got larger and

56:07>> Oh, that's so I tried I was gonna

56:09impress everybody and come in here with

56:11on average in North Carolina [laughter]

56:14formula but no formula that I could

56:17decipher

56:18>> and that makes sense.

56:19>> So kind of are are okay to follow up on

56:23what you've already started. I was

56:25tasked with policy now I forgot 117

56:30>> the health and benefits. health and

56:31benefits

56:33>> and I almost made a meeting scheduled a

56:36meeting with HR to get deep dive and I'm

56:40like well before I do that let's figure

56:43out what we need to know.

56:45>> Um but I did do exactly what you did the

56:48top 10. I said, "All right, who gets

56:50help insurance and other benefits?" And

56:54pretty much the top seven, yes, with the

57:00exclusion of Winston Salem. And then as

57:02they got smaller, no.

57:04>> That's basically what you just said.

57:06>> That sounds like exactly in my little

57:08poorly formatted

57:10>> chart. So again, we fall in line.

57:14you know, I don't know where what we

57:17want to know to make a recommendation on

57:20that. Uh, so if you have [clears throat]

57:24if you want me to sit down with HR and

57:26ask some specific questions, I would

57:28gladly do that. But before I do, I

57:30wanted to make sure

57:31>> I'd like to know what the current

57:34like in solidly in black and white

57:37because if you ask five people, they'll

57:38say

57:39>> what the current

57:41>> what currently what benefits are offered

57:43to council. same as staff

57:45>> for health and dental

57:46>> health for health and dental

57:47>> health and [clears throat] the Lisa I

57:50always forget the technical

57:54words for the health spending account.

57:57>> Well, so under you have two choices of

57:59health plans. Um and one is a high

58:02deductible health plan that comes with

58:04um a health savings account.

58:06>> The other is sort of a traditional

58:08health insurance plan. Um, and under the

58:11traditional health insurance plan, then

58:13town employees get a what's called a

58:15benefits my way $3,500 benefit. Um, that

58:19>> lifestyle spending.

58:20>> Lifestyle spending. I'm going to commit

58:22it to memory because when you say health

58:24spending account, that means something

58:26specific.

58:28>> If you are on the high deductible health

58:29plan, you do not get the lifestyle

58:31spending. $3500 goes into your health

58:35savings account,

58:36>> which to be clear, as long as we're

58:38talking about it, is for very clearly

58:41defined medical related expenses, like

58:43if you had a personal FSA

58:45>> or Yeah, I call it my physical therapy.

58:48>> When you say lifestyle spending account,

58:50that sounds like it could be perhaps

58:52very flexible. Well, car's carries is is

58:55a little flexible for employees, but we

58:57have a separate policy because council

58:59is only entitled to health and dental

59:01and vision benefits.

59:03>> Council, if you are on the health plan,

59:05uh the traditional health plan with the

59:07$3,500 lifestyle,

59:10>> what did we spending?

59:12>> Spending account. Thank you. [laughter]

59:14>> Um then those benefits may only be used

59:16for health, dental, and medical for

59:18council members. For staff, it's a

59:20little bit broader, but for council,

59:21it's limited to the health, dental,

59:23vision,

59:24>> because those are the other benefits you

59:26can otherwise avail yourself of.

59:27Correct.

59:28>> Yes.

59:29>> And since we're talking about it, pay

59:32the same premiums as staff in that

59:34category.

59:35>> That's my understanding.

59:38>> Understanding or

59:39>> Ashley Ligan would have to confirm that

59:41the amounts are the same, but the way we

59:43set up the policy was it was supposed to

59:45be the same.

59:46>> Okay.

59:46I'm I'm

59:48>> unclear on and whether or not there are

59:51um

59:54whether or not there are any

59:57truth to some rumors that were passed

59:59around on social media that we get a

1:00:02special lifetime benefit or anything

1:00:04like that confirming um

1:00:05>> what kind of benefit would that be?

1:00:07>> After you're on counsel for 15 years,

1:00:09you get insurance forever. Just

1:00:11confirming that that is not accurate.

1:00:13>> I'm 23. That's not true. Yes. And that

1:00:16it is not free. It is like anyone who

1:00:18buys into their employer plan, you pay

1:00:20the premium.

1:00:21>> Yep.

1:00:21>> Yes.

1:00:22>> And and have the same coverage.

1:00:24>> Yes.

1:00:26>> So I will meet with staff and confirm

1:00:30all this stuff. Okay.

1:00:37>> All right. Which brings us to Are we

1:00:40ready to deep dive? We have 30 minutes.

1:00:43>> [snorts]

1:00:43>> Do we want to start crafting

1:00:46or

1:00:47>> could we may or may work backwards.

1:00:50Okay.

1:00:51>> And help me understand what we are

1:00:53collectively envisioning as the work

1:00:56product.

1:00:58>> Um

1:00:59>> to know what what are we envisioning?

1:01:01Are we eventually you know we are we are

1:01:04offering interim updates at work

1:01:07sessions to our colleagues uh an

1:01:09informal update on the proceedings of

1:01:12this committee.

1:01:13Are we envisioning though getting to

1:01:16obviously not a final decision that is

1:01:18up to the full council and our

1:01:20colleagues, but are we envisioning

1:01:22getting to a finished product of sorts

1:01:24that we are making the equivalent of the

1:01:27same kind of product we see in stack

1:01:29reports? Are we going to our colleagues

1:01:31with a slide deck and some sort of

1:01:35polished version of our thoughts, our

1:01:38recommendations? Is that what we're

1:01:40headed towards? Are we envisioning

1:01:41something else? So, so I envision that

1:01:45uh we would try to do the hard work,

1:01:49create recommendations, and if options

1:01:52are needed, give options. But what

1:01:55you're saying, the way I understand it

1:01:57is we could go before council and said,

1:01:59"We discussed this. We are thinking

1:02:02about A, B, and C. We would like your

1:02:05feedback." That is deliberation in an

1:02:07open meeting and we're not making a

1:02:09decision

1:02:11which should be fine.

1:02:13>> And then like we could say we are

1:02:16thinking about having a citizen

1:02:18committee and the other four go oh no we

1:02:20don't want that at all.

1:02:21>> Yeah.

1:02:21>> Then we go all right

1:02:23>> to the drawing board. Yeah. So if that

1:02:25is the case then the committee

1:02:29I don't know how to put it create

1:02:32recommendations of recommendation

1:02:34>> iterate we then we iterate that's

1:02:36exactly how I envisioned it

1:02:38>> through conversation or I did a little

1:02:42laid it out here's the slide deck

1:02:44>> okay

1:02:44>> in a work session

1:02:46>> and we go in the and here's the the bits

1:02:48and parcels that we feel where we feel

1:02:51you know uniformly that this is the way

1:02:53to here's what we think where we don't

1:02:56feel uniformly here's the options and

1:02:58then talk it through so that we can come

1:03:01back here

1:03:02>> and craft it

1:03:03>> and craft the policy and then

1:03:04>> rather than waste time craft it you

1:03:06don't like it okay we're going to try

1:03:08again you don't like it

1:03:09>> okay we'll try again and then bring the

1:03:11policy back to another work session

1:03:13[clears throat] again with the word

1:03:14smithing because what'll happen is

1:03:15little words will get changed and

1:03:17rearranged and then once we're happy

1:03:18with it then we can bring it to a

1:03:20regular council meeting for adoption

1:03:21>> I could envision you know a a slide per

1:03:28policy idea poss you know I framed it as

1:03:30I qualified it as much as I could right

1:03:33you have a possible policy

1:03:34recommendation I mean that is about as

1:03:36unconrete as you could make it

1:03:38>> that's perfect

1:03:39>> but uh you know I could envision you

1:03:42know taking something similar you know

1:03:43maybe to the travel training possible

1:03:46policy recommendations and having it

1:03:49drafted right having some language so it

1:03:51gives us a you know a firm grounding and

1:03:54then maybe underneath it we could have

1:03:58three columns. It could be like pros,

1:04:00cons, and alternatives

1:04:01>> just to show that this is you we thought

1:04:03this might be the direction we're headed

1:04:06but here's how to think about it and

1:04:09then let our colleagues iterate with us.

1:04:15>> Sounds good.

1:04:17>> Pros cons alternatives

1:04:23So possible policy recommendation.

1:04:26>> Well, we could keep it to reasonable

1:04:27alternatives.

1:04:28>> Yes. Yeah. Not exhaustive alternatives.

1:04:30>> I feel like as a group, this research

1:04:32has helped me eliminate things like a

1:04:35per meeting.

1:04:36>> Yes. Exactly.

1:04:38>> Or Yeah.

1:04:38>> I I feel like that is our job is to do

1:04:42some of that initial vetting is that if

1:04:44we were bringing an exhaustive list,

1:04:47then we might as well have had a

1:04:48committee of seven. But we should be

1:04:50bringing the thoughtful [laughter]

1:04:53alternatives, the reasonable

1:04:55alternatives.

1:04:56>> Yeah.

1:04:58>> Yeah.

1:05:00>> Okay.

1:05:09So

1:05:12what we need feedback on is direction

1:05:17in your homework and your homework to

1:05:20see where council wants us to spend our

1:05:22time.

1:05:25>> So

1:05:26>> do I mean like I said this is a little

1:05:28dense. I know I I said our job is to do

1:05:32the vetting for our colleagues. Um I've

1:05:35provided you with a lot of raw material.

1:05:38>> Yeah.

1:05:38>> Do you two want the opportunity to

1:05:41digest it and the first step of

1:05:43iterating is for you to come back and

1:05:45say because I didn't intend for this to

1:05:49be exhaustive either. You know, this was

1:05:51an opportunity. This was a a launching

1:05:52pad for our conversation. And I know

1:05:55it's very hard to metabolize information

1:05:58in real time in a meeting. Do you want

1:06:02the opportunity to read it and come back

1:06:06next week or a future meeting with the

1:06:09gaps? I have

1:06:10>> the blind spots I had the things that we

1:06:12need the

1:06:13>> can we how about both I still feel like

1:06:16a straw poll approach is helpful to

1:06:18helpful to narrow the scope. So, so we

1:06:23are on the agenda for the quarterly

1:06:25tomorrow.

1:06:26>> You're not.

1:06:27>> Okay.

1:06:28>> Okay. So, it couldn't be tomorrow. Okay.

1:06:32>> For example,

1:06:34>> if you are immenable to maybe pursuing,

1:06:38let me not say this ridiculous. If

1:06:39you're immenable to me pursuing um

1:06:42outlining what a count a citizen

1:06:45committee to determine our compensation

1:06:47might look like. If you both say you

1:06:49know what yes let's explore that then I

1:06:52will go and bring together

1:06:54more tightly and more concisely because

1:06:56the problem is I just handed you a piece

1:06:58of paper that dove into the nine areas

1:07:00of compensation and and didn't concisely

1:07:03dive into that other than say then oh

1:07:05look at these five people five

1:07:07municipalities do it that way

1:07:09>> we definitely need feedback or we might

1:07:11waste time we need feedback should we do

1:07:14citizen committee or not

1:07:16>> that would be a question we can ask and

1:07:18get a quick answer.

1:07:20>> That's true.

1:07:21>> And uh I would recommend if we can

1:07:23squeeze in just a few minutes in a work

1:07:25session. I don't know.

1:07:26>> I think the September 22nd work session.

1:07:28>> Yeah, we have time would be and that's a

1:07:31good idea because I was again I was kind

1:07:32of thinking like a little grandiose of

1:07:36we would

1:07:38we would shape our work and then present

1:07:40maybe it it all together but maybe we

1:07:43piece meal it. And so maybe that's you

1:07:45know the lowest hanging point

1:07:46>> the things that are the things that are

1:07:47the most deterministic if everyone says

1:07:51yes let's go down that road then then we

1:07:54come to to them later with okay here's

1:07:57what how we think we should do it.

1:08:00>> So I think asking them the what

1:08:02>> or you know if if you think this is okay

1:08:04and then the how being the deeper dive

1:08:07and the homework based off of you know

1:08:08the research we have now and getting

1:08:11sort of in that into that minutia. it.

1:08:14That's when I say straw pole I I really

1:08:16kind of mean more

1:08:18>> pulse check.

1:08:19>> Yeah.

1:08:20>> Yeah. Check.

1:08:23>> Let me ask when we are talking about a

1:08:26committee

1:08:28would we think that a committee's charge

1:08:32would be compensation that's defined by

1:08:37statute that is salary and allowance.

1:08:41And then we might add benefits to that.

1:08:44Would it also include the travel

1:08:48training? Um I mean I am open to

1:08:53arguments. Otherwise I feel like this is

1:08:57so particular to town operations that

1:09:02that might be difficult for a resident

1:09:06group to translate. Whereas the

1:09:09compensation

1:09:11research

1:09:13would be easier for them to get the

1:09:16data, do the benchmarking, think about

1:09:19peer communities. I mean, so to me, I

1:09:23think this would be separate from the

1:09:25work of a commission. Um,

1:09:28>> well, after they finished that, we might

1:09:30test them with another such as travel

1:09:33and training. And and I think travel and

1:09:36training is a good a good example of

1:09:38something where we need to have clarity

1:09:40immediately.

1:09:41>> Yeah. And we can because we don't have

1:09:43the same limitation,

1:09:44>> right? And then we can we can always

1:09:47have a long-term

1:09:49>> amendment. You know, we can we can have

1:09:51the good enough for now,

1:09:53>> make sure we don't have any additional

1:09:55problems,

1:09:57>> changes to the policy, and then a

1:09:59long-term let's make it absolutely

1:10:01perfect.

1:10:02I I think I don't think we can wait a

1:10:05year for a commission to to to do that

1:10:08because

1:10:09>> or we we do a moratorum on training and

1:10:12travel.

1:10:12>> Yeah.

1:10:13>> Yeah.

1:10:14>> Yeah. I agree.

1:10:15>> Or we or we could task someone with a

1:10:17time limit.

1:10:18>> Right. Right.

1:10:19>> And if they can't do it in the time

1:10:21limit, then they shouldn't be on the

1:10:23committee.

1:10:24>> Somebody that has the time to be able to

1:10:26do that.

1:10:26>> Yeah. Great. If if time is a a problem

1:10:29or time is an issue or consideration,

1:10:32then it should be crafted that way. So,

1:10:35>> you mean for the citizen?

1:10:37>> Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I was simply talking

1:10:39about um I don't believe it would be I

1:10:42don't believe it would be reasonable for

1:10:45us to wait for the items that we can

1:10:48correct for now where we have policy

1:10:51challenges

1:10:52um that can address

1:10:54>> anything that doesn't have to wait on

1:10:56the budget we should do as soon as we

1:10:58can.

1:10:58>> That's exactly what I'm saying.

1:11:01>> No. So, what I'm hearing is at the next

1:11:05available opportunity, sounds like

1:11:06September 22nd,

1:11:09Council Member Con Johnson, you'll take

1:11:11the lead on asking our colleagues how

1:11:15they feel. And so, we'll leave it to you

1:11:18how you would like to present that to

1:11:19them and in what format and with what

1:11:22information.

1:11:24>> The notion of

1:11:25>> on September 22nd,

1:11:28>> what's the first sound? It sounds like

1:11:30the first available work session that we

1:11:32can make on the

1:11:33>> agenda. We have another meeting before

1:11:35then.

1:11:36>> So, as long as we can continue work.

1:11:39>> Yeah.

1:11:40>> Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Uh but to

1:11:44straw pull pulse check of if we're

1:11:46headed in the right direction or not,

1:11:47because you're right. If they say we

1:11:50don't want to do that, you know, if uh

1:11:53when we we get our direction from the

1:11:55seven of us collectively, well, then

1:11:57that's a very different concept. Then

1:11:59correct

1:12:00>> the three of us are coming back with

1:12:02more detailed policy,

1:12:04>> a draft policy, you know,

1:12:07>> like you described earlier with the full

1:12:09presentation like here's what we think.

1:12:11Yeah. And so maybe we proceed with that

1:12:14route [clears throat] though for this

1:12:16for travel and training because we agree

1:12:18we can act more quickly um and we

1:12:21wouldn't have to wait for the budget

1:12:24cycle or the results of the the

1:12:26commission. And so then maybe next week

1:12:31I could envision next week you come back

1:12:35with your notes on the launching pad I

1:12:38provided and then based on what we

1:12:41shaped there I could translate that into

1:12:44the slide deck we just talked about of

1:12:46like policy recommendation and then

1:12:48>> one deck

1:12:50>> well no the 22nd would not be for this

1:12:52it would just be for Carissa to ask them

1:12:56about

1:12:58for us for for Carissa to represent the

1:13:01three of us to ask our colleagues about

1:13:03the idea of the commission that

1:13:05singularly

1:13:06>> and so that would

1:13:07>> we also want to give them a report on

1:13:09what we're doing and the public if

1:13:11they're not watching it and they watch

1:13:13then

1:13:14>> I would envision that perhaps being more

1:13:17like we did last week where we

1:13:19informally tell them this is what we're

1:13:21thinking about and this is how we're

1:13:22tackling it and this is what we

1:13:24anticipate coming back to you with and

1:13:26and letting them know that we're working

1:13:28on it.

1:13:29>> Okay.

1:13:31So, here's what I see happening on the

1:13:3422nd is I start off with here's what

1:13:39we've been working on. I've been test

1:13:40this,

1:13:42>> Miss Richards this, Miss Col Johnson

1:13:44this, and we're we're moving toward

1:13:48crafting policies, but we need direction

1:13:51to be more efficient.

1:13:53>> And Mr. com Johnson has questions or a

1:13:56question and then we get feedback and

1:13:59then the next time we meet we're

1:14:01>> moving in that direction. Is that

1:14:03>> Yeah, that's what I think is how many

1:14:05more meetings we've already scheduled?

1:14:07Two more after

1:14:08>> two more and then I think we were going

1:14:10to discuss meeting dates.

1:14:13>> I think they're on our calendar monthly.

1:14:16So

1:14:16>> I did um Is this what I

1:14:19>> October had couple of that you added?

1:14:21>> Yeah. So, I just went through um

1:14:23beginning of November because you had

1:14:25said do the Thursday. That's like on the

1:14:28off week with accounting. We just need

1:14:30the Mondays to get us through

1:14:32>> the Thursdays. But um so the next one

1:14:35September 21st, September 28th, October

1:14:3929th, and November 12th.

1:14:42>> Well, that's a long time

1:14:45between.

1:14:46>> So, you might want to find some in

1:14:47between date as well. I suggested that

1:14:50on October 22nd we add a committee

1:14:52meeting ahead of the council meeting

1:14:55since we don't have a work session.

1:14:57Okay. That Thursday if you guys are

1:14:58amanable to that

1:15:02>> we could at least meet for 45 minutes.

1:15:05>> Sure to work. Yeah, that works.

1:15:11>> So meeting at 4:45.

1:15:14>> I can't I can do five.

1:15:17October 22

1:15:18>> because the work because I'm sorry you

1:15:19said the before the work session at

1:15:215:30.

1:15:22>> No the council meeting on on the 22nd

1:15:26>> on October 22nd.

1:15:28>> So five you said can or can

1:15:30>> so the council meeting on the back

1:15:35of time.

1:15:36>> Yeah

1:15:37>> that was the confusion. The 22nd is

1:15:39Tuesday is the work session. So the

1:15:41regular meeting

1:15:42>> you're talking September. She's talking

1:15:44October.

1:15:46Yes,

1:15:47>> there we go.

1:15:48>> I was like,

1:15:49>> "Thank you, Lisa, for knowing that you

1:15:51[laughter] were talking across

1:15:52purposes."

1:15:55>> Jenny, I think you and I and I've got my

1:15:57font really big, so I know I'm reading

1:15:59it correctly.

1:16:00>> So, yeah, there's nothing on the

1:16:01calendar before the council meeting on

1:16:03Thursday, October 22nd.

1:16:06>> So, at 5:15, which Cararissa can make.

1:16:09>> Yeah.

1:16:09>> Yes.

1:16:10>> Is and that's our consistent start time.

1:16:13I think it's important that we have a

1:16:15consistent start time

1:16:16>> so that we're not all over the map with

1:16:19people trying to figure out what we're

1:16:20doing.

1:16:21>> Would it be more convenient for us to

1:16:23meet in her?

1:16:26>> No.

1:16:27>> Okay. [laughter]

1:16:28>> It's the same answer. I like that.

1:16:30>> We have to bring in additional staff.

1:16:32>> Oh, okay. Then one of these main rooms.

1:16:34Okay. Are you able to schedule that for

1:16:37us like you typically do? Thank you,

1:16:38Jenny.

1:16:40on our calendar.

1:16:46>> So, I'm going to

1:16:48say what we've already said. September

1:16:5221st is our next September 28th is

1:16:55scheduled. October 22nd is what we just

1:16:59added

1:17:01>> and October 29th and November 12th. All

1:17:04starting at 5:15.

1:17:06>> It does.

1:17:08November 12th. Okay.

1:17:12Can make that one a Friendsgiving.

1:17:14[laughter]

1:17:17>> So, my task if since we've got like 15

1:17:21minutes, my task is meet with staff and

1:17:25find out what, if any, differences we

1:17:27have from staff and whatever else they

1:17:31can tell me about our health benefits. X

1:17:34I can I might do more harm than good

1:17:37here in confusing the matter but this

1:17:39was my understanding and this is

1:17:41probably freshest for me as the most

1:17:43recently onboarded council member and

1:17:47Lisa perhaps you can correct me if I go

1:17:49astray here but I believe our health

1:17:53insurance premiums fall into two

1:17:55categories depending on whether or not

1:17:58you are in a health category that you

1:18:02participate Yes.

1:18:03>> In a health program that lowers your

1:18:06premium. And so

1:18:09>> we as council members don't participate

1:18:12in that program. So I'm not as familiar,

1:18:14but it means

1:18:16certain kinds of wellness checks with a

1:18:19physician. and have to go to the dentist

1:18:21once a year, get your annual physical

1:18:23and then this year we have to do some

1:18:26training on

1:18:28last year it was muscularkeeletal

1:18:31like how to keep yourself injuryfree I

1:18:33think this year it's something different

1:18:35>> and what is that called help

1:18:38>> so if you if you are an employee and any

1:18:41employee elects to participate in the

1:18:44program or not

1:18:46>> yeah that's correct so if you elect to

1:18:49participate in this extra wellness

1:18:51program, your premiums are lower.

1:18:55>> Council does not participate in the

1:18:58program. We don't go to the we don't

1:19:01have to affirm that we're going to the

1:19:03dentist and getting a muscular skeletal

1:19:06presentation, but our premium is in that

1:19:10category. So, there are two premium

1:19:13categories for staff.

1:19:14>> That's correct. and council has the

1:19:17category that is the equivalent of the

1:19:20of the lower health.

1:19:22>> That is my understanding.

1:19:23>> I wasn't aware of that.

1:19:25>> Yeah, I'm not aware of that either.

1:19:26>> So, a little context for when you have

1:19:28your conversation with Ashley so that

1:19:30perhaps it's not the very first time

1:19:32you're hearing this notion of tiered

1:19:34premiums. And Ashley can correct me if

1:19:36I'm wrong, too.

1:19:38>> Okay, that's a good question. Thank you.

1:19:44And I believe it was explained that we

1:19:47don't participate in the program

1:19:50because of our

1:19:53strange purgatory of being

1:19:56not town employees but paid by the town

1:19:59with town benefits. That the reason the

1:20:02premiums are lower when you participate

1:20:03in that program is because your

1:20:05collective health metrics, right, are

1:20:08less expensive for the insurance

1:20:09company. And because of our non-emp

1:20:11employee status, we cannot be

1:20:13calculated. So we don't participate in

1:20:16the program because we're quasi

1:20:20employees, but we don't count as

1:20:22employees, but so we are still given

1:20:25that premium category. Mhm.

1:20:30>> So, my

1:20:33homework

1:20:35I'm going to follow up on town is

1:20:37electronics in particular, town issued

1:20:39or city issued cell phones.

1:20:42>> I'm going to I think this is some place

1:20:44where I'll consider what county

1:20:45governments do as well since there's

1:20:46going to be more information there. I'll

1:20:49create a slide um to to make it to

1:20:55help the discussion be more productive

1:20:57on whether or not um you know what the

1:21:00the

1:21:01>> rest of council thinks about having a

1:21:03citizen-ledd committee to determine our

1:21:04compensation.

1:21:07And I had one more piece of homework.

1:21:15No, that's it. I think that's

1:21:17everything, isn't it? providing feedback

1:21:20on this.

1:21:21>> That's the other thing. [laughter]

1:21:23>> Provide feedback or

1:21:26>> and when

1:21:28I I might recommend uh referencing the

1:21:32electronic version because I did link

1:21:34for you the source material from the

1:21:36other municipalities. Again,

1:21:39Morrisvilles is quite robust. They just

1:21:42passed it this spring. Um and it was

1:21:44very thoughtful. Um, and so you might

1:21:46want to actually read that one in its

1:21:48entirety.

1:21:50>> Have you emailed this to us?

1:21:52>> Jake did.

1:21:54>> It's a lot.

1:21:57>> I don't remember seeing it.

1:21:58>> Oh, no. I do because I made a committee

1:22:01folder and I think I moved.

1:22:03>> No, it came with a reminder about

1:22:06today's meeting.

1:22:07>> Was that today? Mhm.

1:22:09>> Speaking of email, and I know you're

1:22:10going to on our agenda talk to us about

1:22:13the idea we talked about last time of

1:22:15having a dedicated committee email

1:22:17address, but for my clarity, Jenny and

1:22:21Lisa, um I'm not entirely certain what

1:22:24is permissible for communicating amongst

1:22:26the three of us because as a committee

1:22:28of three, a forum is just two of us. So,

1:22:32as I understand it, I really then should

1:22:34not be communicating with either of my

1:22:37colleagues here. I should funnel

1:22:40everything through Jenny.

1:22:41>> I think sort of like we tal we've talked

1:22:43about before,

1:22:45>> sending things is fine. like FI talk

1:22:49back and forth about it

1:22:50>> because like I sent this to Jenny today

1:22:52and said I am sending this to you and I

1:22:54will let you figure out the distribution

1:22:56mechanism

1:22:57>> and that's a definitely a safe way to

1:22:58>> and I ced

1:23:00>> the mayor and council member Con Johnson

1:23:03and was not soliciting any feedback but

1:23:05was providing it as FYI in advance of

1:23:08today's meeting that would have been

1:23:09okay

1:23:09>> good and then if I said hey I really

1:23:12like what you said about so and so not

1:23:14good

1:23:14>> I would have told you mayor no

1:23:17>> and you can even put a reminder on your

1:23:19email as a reminder. Don't reply. We'll

1:23:21talk about it tonight or the next

1:23:23meeting. Yeah,

1:23:25>> we have 11 minutes.

1:23:27Anything else?

1:23:29>> I think there's any other few items for

1:23:30us.

1:23:31>> Oh, yeah. Please.

1:23:32>> Yeah. So, you asked what council had um

1:23:36spent had asked us to purchase at their

1:23:39request and so we look back last 60 days

1:23:42and I know this is a very time in which

1:23:44we're um

1:23:45>> and you're going to make this

1:23:47public health.

1:23:48>> I was going to read it. There's only two

1:23:49items.

1:23:50>> Okay.

1:23:51>> Um [laughter]

1:23:53um so we has just purchased the last 60

1:23:55days purchased two tickets um for the

1:23:58North Carolina Housing Conference NC

1:24:00affordable housing conference, one for

1:24:01Bella, one for Britney, each at $275.

1:24:05Um and I have a note that said Lori

1:24:08registered using her own funds for that

1:24:10one. And so we will um be putting this

1:24:15on the upcoming agenda just because this

1:24:18council was like the committee said you

1:24:20go ahead with

1:24:21>> listing that out there um and putting

1:24:24what maybe we were spending at the

1:24:25direction of council related that travel

1:24:27training reimbursement.

1:24:30>> Okay.

1:24:30>> And it'll just see on the consent

1:24:32agenda.

1:24:32>> Okay.

1:24:33>> And so I did I'm just going to I'm going

1:24:35to give a little spoiler alert. I did

1:24:38capture that. That's what we said.

1:24:39that's actually at the very bottom of

1:24:40the first page that we had said per the

1:24:44last meeting that we would capture this

1:24:45information in consent agendas and the

1:24:48procedure in consultation with our our

1:24:50clerk's office. I did link for you there

1:24:53the route that Morrisville is taking,

1:24:55which when you click on it, you'll see

1:24:57they're doing quarterly reports and it

1:24:59lists each of the mayor and council

1:25:01members and their total expenses that

1:25:04they've accured towards their $2,000

1:25:06cap. So, an alternative method for you

1:25:09guys to look at and it doesn't itemize

1:25:11it. Um, but per their policy, anything

1:25:14that's there would have to have been

1:25:17approved for policy.

1:25:19>> Okay.

1:25:20>> Sorry, Jenny.

1:25:22>> What else you got?

1:25:22>> I was asked at the last committee

1:25:24meeting to look into creating like a a

1:25:27mailbox um an email address that then

1:25:29would um send forward everything to you

1:25:32all so people could get feedback that

1:25:35way. And right now what I had them look

1:25:38into there's no cost associated with

1:25:40creating something like this. They're

1:25:42looking into like the best method

1:25:44forward since we haven't set anything up

1:25:46like this. We usually just do um groups

1:25:48not well we're trying to look at make

1:25:51sure the town council one is the

1:25:52approach we want to take. So we hope to

1:25:54have it set up by the next meeting if

1:25:56that's something the committee wanted us

1:25:57to do.

1:25:58>> And this is to distribute not to talk

1:26:02about

1:26:03>> right. Is that what we're saying? How's

1:26:05that different? Just

1:26:06>> I think I think the idea was for just

1:26:09like residents use the town council

1:26:12address and it comes to all seven of us,

1:26:15we would make it publicly available that

1:26:18should residents want to share ideas

1:26:21feedback with the committee, they could

1:26:23just use a committee.gov

1:26:26address that would then be distributed

1:26:28to the committee. Is that what we

1:26:30>> And it would it would be an opportunity

1:26:32to forward um constituent emails that

1:26:35are coming in with a strong opinion.

1:26:36You're getting them too. I'm sure I've

1:26:38got opinions about what we're discussing

1:26:40here. Um they want to be on the record

1:26:43so to speak.

1:26:44>> Okay.

1:26:45>> It would be.

1:26:45>> And then what do we do with that? So

1:26:48those are public records. Are we doing

1:26:50anything with that or it's just a public

1:26:52record?

1:26:53>> Yeah. I mean I don't know. What do you

1:26:55think, Cararissa? In terms of inbox

1:26:58management and organization, is there a

1:27:00significant difference for a resident to

1:27:03use a dedicated committee address versus

1:27:06continuing to use our town council

1:27:08address? What I find is is the number

1:27:11one

1:27:13not complaint, the number one request is

1:27:18from media, from residents, how do we

1:27:22give feedback? How do we give feedback?

1:27:25My desire is simply to make giving

1:27:27feedback very specific to what we're

1:27:29discussing in this room as easy as

1:27:32humanly possible and the certainty that

1:27:34it's going to the individuals that are

1:27:35discussing this stuff. Um and that we

1:27:38all have shared information which is

1:27:40used to be you know it's not a problem

1:27:42today but in the past um us working all

1:27:45from the same shared information I think

1:27:48is important in this process. So would

1:27:51the committee email distribute to the

1:27:54three of us or to the seven of us?

1:27:56>> My intention was for it to go to the

1:27:59three of us and then for those records

1:28:00to become part of a collective public

1:28:03record.

1:28:04Let me just play devil's advocate

1:28:06because I think we might have all

1:28:07received a similar email today saying I

1:28:10have had in a separate thread a

1:28:12conversation with individual council

1:28:14members and I'm now forwarding it on to

1:28:16all seven of you understanding that

1:28:18while the three of us are in this

1:28:19committee ultimately all seven of us are

1:28:22going to make a decision. So I I could

1:28:24see a scenario in which it is sent to

1:28:26the three of us and then either the

1:28:28resident or one of us still feels

1:28:30compelled to forward it on as an FYI to

1:28:33all seven of us and then we've just

1:28:35created an an extra an extra effort as

1:28:39opposed to just and maybe

1:28:42>> uh another avenue for residents to know

1:28:44that we have a town council email

1:28:46address that they can

1:28:48>> send to all seven of us simultaneously.

1:28:51I I do this is this is devil's advocate.

1:28:53I do not feel strongly if if you see if

1:28:56any one of us sees enough uh benefit to

1:28:59having a dedicated committee email

1:29:01address we can forward or catalog or

1:29:04>> I'm comfortable with it being the town

1:29:06council email address. What I was really

1:29:09hoping for is a path to include the

1:29:11citizen feedback

1:29:14with our work product, our notes and all

1:29:16the things. Um because otherwise that

1:29:18would be incumbent on one of us maybe to

1:29:22you're saying catalog that specific kind

1:29:24of feedback. Yeah.

1:29:25>> To be collated with this work.

1:29:28>> Yeah. the way that email address would

1:29:30allow a shortcut to doing that

1:29:32>> simil similarly to the way public um

1:29:34feedback is included in our uh public

1:29:38hearings

1:29:41>> because I think sometimes

1:29:44the feedback we get is excellent

1:29:48>> sometimes it's

1:29:50>> passionate

1:29:51>> passionate and they didn't read the

1:29:52resources either right you know so we

1:29:54get and everything in between um I don't

1:29:59believe people understand that we really

1:30:01do read this stuff.

1:30:03>> So, Carissa, you're looking for the

1:30:06agenda to have a link the way the

1:30:08council meeting agendas do that goes to

1:30:11that packet of written comments that

1:30:12come in before every council meeting.

1:30:15>> How hard is that?

1:30:18>> Well, the way we do that is we do have

1:30:20one email address that they can send

1:30:22written comments into and also they can

1:30:24use the 311 portal to submit written

1:30:26comments. So, we collect them in two

1:30:28places. Um,

1:30:32>> am I complicating something that should

1:30:33be a email 311 scenario?

1:30:37>> Well, we also could create a drop down

1:30:41on 311 and then run a report. Um, that,

1:30:44you know, as a staff, that's how we

1:30:46would handle it. We we would Salesforce

1:30:49has the ability to um run it for if

1:30:52people use the drop down that says they

1:30:54need council committee feedback or

1:30:57>> feedback for council committee or

1:30:59something like that

1:31:00>> and we can run that report and then

1:31:01bring it to you at your

1:31:03>> um

1:31:05like I don't you may want to set up a

1:31:07cadence of wanting it quicker than your

1:31:09meetings

1:31:10>> but we if we play if we apply the same

1:31:13way that we do for the council meetings

1:31:15we would bring it to your meeting. Okay.

1:31:17I think I spent the last year telling

1:31:20residents repeatedly to please email

1:31:24feedback to 311 because it gets

1:31:25aggregated and shared with us.

1:31:28>> And now I'm going around my elbow

1:31:31>> to not just use the process that we have

1:31:35>> set up and it's I think just a

1:31:39poorly thought through concept on my

1:31:41part. Would you like a drop down maybe

1:31:44that says like feedback for council's

1:31:46committee?

1:31:48>> I I think that would be helpful.

1:31:50>> I mean it's and it other things people

1:31:52pick other drop downs. So, you know, you

1:31:54can pick a very standard one and

1:31:56>> automatically go to 311.

1:31:58>> Yes. So, in this drop down they can say

1:32:00something very vague that we um that

1:32:03whoever is filtering will go that's

1:32:06actually for the clerk's office. If it's

1:32:07anything related to council, it usually

1:32:09gets tagged to us and then we decide

1:32:11like is that a public comment? Is that

1:32:13something we can send to another staff

1:32:14member? Or now we'll put into our queue

1:32:18kind of like is that council feedback

1:32:21>> committee. Yeah, there's there's some

1:32:23really good conversations happening too.

1:32:26Um just yeah I I'm not trying to

1:32:29complicate it and make my inbox part of

1:32:31the public record but I I figured in

1:32:34this process this is a little bit this

1:32:36is my first time on council whether

1:32:39we've had a committee so to speak and so

1:32:40making sure that the work product and

1:32:42then the things that we considered in

1:32:44making our determinations be available

1:32:47publicly is is my only goal. So in the

1:32:50effort of collecting those public

1:32:53opinions in one place, would you

1:32:56recommend then for the protocol for the

1:32:59residents that do email us individually

1:33:03or at our town council address

1:33:05>> them to 311

1:33:06>> CC them or forward them to 311 for them

1:33:09to then be funneled through 311.

1:33:11>> And you could say when you do that, you

1:33:12know, this is feedback for council

1:33:14committee and 311's collecting that for

1:33:16us and it'll be provided to us. um

1:33:18similar to how your budget pulse reports

1:33:20are provided to you.

1:33:21>> That's

1:33:22>> um that's kind of

1:33:25>> this is very helpful. Thank you.

1:33:27>> What do you have any preference about

1:33:28the drop down wordage? Just feedback

1:33:31committee feedback

1:33:32>> council committee feedback or something.

1:33:35>> Recommendations committee.

1:33:37>> Yeah. Okay. Yeah, [laughter]

1:33:39>> we have a name.

1:33:41>> We do have a name now. Recommendations

1:33:43committee. I'm going to write that in my

1:33:45folder so I don't forget it. And I don't

1:33:47know if there's a word limit, but we'll

1:33:50get as close as we can to that and let

1:33:52you know as well.

1:33:54Um, and then the last thing was just

1:33:56talking about the dashboard. um you know

1:33:58when you

1:34:01this was just pulled from

1:34:04the dashboard is I provided it as the

1:34:07form that we at the last meeting but I

1:34:09pulled it together here because as you

1:34:10do work on this work and you feel the

1:34:14need to maybe tell us to update the

1:34:16status

1:34:17>> of any of the dashboard items we looking

1:34:19for um input from like um for this

1:34:26>> so you only have three categories, not

1:34:28started, research, and completed.

1:34:31>> Not started, research, development, and

1:34:32completed.

1:34:33>> Oh, okay.

1:34:36>> And then these were just the ones that

1:34:38were related to council. It was on the

1:34:39slide for the work session. The one on

1:34:41the back was related to council, but and

1:34:43on the website, but not covered by this

1:34:44committee.

1:34:46>> So, [clears throat] it's something just

1:34:47to keep considering. Um, you know, as

1:34:50you saw last week, when we do make a

1:34:52dashboard status update, we do um some

1:34:56follow-up communication so that we can

1:34:57get those out to people who have

1:34:59subscribed. So, we would, if you gave us

1:35:01that direction, we would then move

1:35:03forward with notifying those who have

1:35:05subscribed to the dashboard.

1:35:07>> Okay.

1:35:08>> I feel like we are in the research stage

1:35:11for the Wumble Bond Dick. It's in 12.

1:35:14>> I agree.

1:35:15>> We discussed half of that.

1:35:16>> Change that.

1:35:17>> I know. And we've we've talked about how

1:35:20difficult it is to make a determination

1:35:22when individual recommendations are so

1:35:25bundled. So I mean these are fairly

1:35:28disperate ideas

1:35:30>> by fiduciary obligations in the town

1:35:32manager contract and certification of

1:35:35compliance with the council's code of

1:35:36ethics. Um so at the very least we've

1:35:40made good progress on the very last

1:35:41point. I think it deserves to be in the

1:35:44research category.

1:35:46>> Yeah. And same thing with the inner city

1:35:47visits, the cherry beckard um

1:35:49recommendation that overlaps pretty

1:35:52significantly with with your research.

1:35:55And

1:35:55>> I think it it'll be a fine line when we

1:35:58tip into development because I think

1:35:59we're fairly close for a lot of these of

1:36:02research is well underway. We're we're

1:36:04getting I think pretty close to

1:36:06development.

1:36:09>> Anything else? [snorts]

1:36:10>> Thank you for keeping us on time. No

1:36:12problem. I'll be quiet.

1:36:14>> All right, we're journ. Thanks.

1:36:16>> Thank you.

1:36:16>> See you next week at 5:15.