2026-09-08 - Council Committee Meeting

04:27unmute.

04:35>> Okay. So, this is just our

04:42live on all platforms.

04:49once he gives us confirmation that the

04:51audio

04:53is good to go. We'll get started.

05:02Just doing our first time in this room

05:04live streaming. We want to make sure

05:05that we're testing all um says the room

05:09is muted.

05:13Yeah, I see it on the

05:16>> you know to unmute.

05:17>> No, this is that me. The room is

05:19unmuted.

05:19>> Yeah, that should be unmuted.

05:22Just if you guys maybe

05:26someone needs to unmute the WebEx panel.

05:32[clears throat]

05:46>> We appreciate your patience. We just

05:48want to make sure everything's working

05:49right before we get started. They

05:51definitely can see us and it's live.

05:52We're just going to go in and check with

05:54the audio.

05:56>> Never behaves itself with an audio.

05:57>> We are good to go. Okay. I just need you

05:59to talk some more. You [clears throat]

06:00>> good?

06:03Okay. We'll go ahead and get this

06:06meeting of the committee started. Uh

06:09just for information purposes, this

06:12committee was established on August 27th

06:15at our council meeting and it's to

06:18review and investigate recommendations

06:22related to the council and the following

06:24areas of compensation including salary

06:27benefit and allowances, travel and

06:30training and code of ethics. So tonight

06:33is the committee's first meeting. Uh I

06:37want to start by talking about emails we

06:41receive today. Usually a committee

06:43structure uh the committee convenes,

06:46discusses items, makes recommendations,

06:51presents it to the entire council. The

06:53council discusses it and makes

06:55decisions. Uh today we received emails

06:59uh for recommendations on a couple of

07:02items and the recommendations are fine

07:05but what makes me uncomfortable is that

07:08it is not a good process because the

07:10public cannot see what was in that email

07:14unless there's a public record request.

07:16Uh so one I want to make sure the media

07:19and whoever else wants it can see these

07:22emails before they leave of what

07:24happened today. Somebody made a

07:26recommendation. There was a hey, I like

07:28that and somebody else commented they

07:31like that. I question whether this is uh

07:35um deliberation. So that's what was in

07:38those emails, but we have it available

07:40for you if you want it. Uh so it brings

07:44to mind the question, maybe we want to

07:47revisit. uh on August 27th we decided we

07:52could have a committee of seven or we

07:54could have a committee of three and we

07:56decided on a committee of three and I

07:59would ask these committee members now

08:01seeing seeing the interest of the

08:04council members not on the committee uh

08:07about this recommendations do we still

08:09want to be a committee of three or do we

08:11want to revisit this and make a

08:12recommendation to the entire council

08:15that we be a committee of seven because

08:17everybody seems to be very interested

08:18interested in what we're doing.

08:20Everybody being every member of council.

08:23Um so all council members not on this

08:26committee responded except for one. And

08:29so that's my first question for this

08:32committee. And uh if if so uh we could

08:36convene as a committee of seven uh and

08:39then start business. If not, we can

08:42continue uh with what we've been tasked

08:45to do. and then we have to

08:48come up with some guidelines for uh the

08:51rest of council um so that they

08:54understand the committee structure. So

08:57I'm glad to hear be welcome to hear your

09:00thoughts.

09:01>> Yeah. And I I think it's worth noting

09:02that the one non-committee council

09:05member who wasn't in the email thread

09:09did have questions on how what we

09:12discuss and and what we want to do, how

09:14that will be presented to the remainder

09:16of council and what the process is for

09:20getting feedback and discussing it

09:22thoroughly and all of that. So I think

09:24that's the secondary question we

09:26probably should address is a do we keep

09:28this a threeperson or what was it a

09:30committee in in whole I think is what

09:33the other term was do we do the seven

09:35person committee or do we remain this

09:37threeperson committee and also if we are

09:40going to remain this three-person

09:41committee how do we plan to bring our

09:43work product to the rest of council um I

09:47think Harold and I kind of made the same

09:49assumption about how we were going to do

09:50it but we didn't actually discuss it

09:53like get on the nose.

09:54>> You know, at the work session when we

09:56convened the committee, we were thinking

09:59about maybe some creative structures of

10:02swapping members or having parallel

10:05committees and I weighed in at that time

10:07that I thought that was getting a little

10:09too complicated and so three or seven

10:12seems very straightforward. Uh the only

10:16obstacle to seven of course then is

10:18scheduling and you know we had talked

10:20about well it's not a regular council

10:25meeting so attendance expectations would

10:28not be the same but once we're a

10:30committee of seven I suppose there would

10:33still be the the impulse to want to

10:36accommodate as many schedules as

10:38possible and do we want to do that

10:42logistically? I think we need to set a

10:45cadence and if we're going to do a

10:48committee as a whole and uh you either

10:51make it or not uh and try to find a date

10:54where most people can attend how do I

10:58say that there might be occasions where

11:00I can attend or you can't attend but

11:03pretty much everybody can attend at some

11:05time.

11:06>> Uh we want to make that available um if

11:08we go that route. Um so those are my

11:12thoughts of that but we need to have a

11:13cadence and we need to move with some

11:15urgency.

11:16>> Um we can't keep

11:19delaying.

11:20>> We have to address these issues and

11:22address them as soon as possible. I

11:24believe a council of or a a council

11:27committee of seven will introduce

11:31delays

11:34um particularly on the five items that

11:36we that are really and and I don't know

11:39that if that's been really clear we are

11:44doing trying to do the work that

11:46pertains simply to council right there's

11:49not a there's not a staff element in the

11:52the five recommend recommendations we

11:54plan to focus on in this in this

11:56committee.

11:58Realistically, we should as a smaller

12:02group be able to bring groups of

12:05recommendation to the larger group

12:08fairly swiftly. The larger group does

12:11have the opportunity to reject our

12:14>> sure

12:15>> recommendations, right?

12:16>> Because we're not making any decisions

12:18here anymore.

12:18>> We're not making decisions here. And for

12:21that reason, for the [clears throat] for

12:22I feel a sense of urgency. I think

12:26citizens feel a significant amount of

12:29urgency and want us to see us act. I

12:31would support us remaining committee of

12:34three

12:35>> um and try to work this way and try to

12:40do it swiftly

12:41>> um simply because of that sense of

12:43urgency. I think I I do believe the

12:48committee of seven will become such a

12:50scheduling challenge.

12:52>> Yeah.

12:53>> Because we'll need five for a quorum,

12:54right?

12:55>> Mhm.

12:56>> Four.

12:57>> We need four. I'm sorry. We need four

12:58for a quorum.

12:59>> That's that is going to introduce

13:01difficulty. I It'll get moved around and

13:03moved around and then oh no, I can't

13:04come. Do we have a quorum?

13:06>> Now we've involved staff to the point

13:08where

13:09>> it might as well just be another council

13:11meeting. And that's an additional that I

13:13think that when you said that the one

13:15complication it's like all caps.

13:18>> Yes.

13:18>> Um it's

13:19>> one complication.

13:21>> Yeah.

13:21>> Yeah.

13:21>> And now we're talking about six months

13:23before we can get anything done. And I

13:25just don't feel as though that's

13:28>> Yeah.

13:28>> What do you think?

13:29>> I think that's fair.

13:30>> Stick with three. All right. So, no

13:31recommendation on that. We'll stick with

13:34the committee of three. Then my next

13:35thing is cadence and length of meetings

13:40before we get started. How often do we

13:42want to meet and how long do we want to

13:44meet roughly? Of course we can go over

13:47and of course we can adjourn early but

13:49you know are we planning on three hours

13:51a night or an hour and a half a night or

13:54you know what are you thinking? Well,

13:57great minds think alike, mayor, because

13:59these were my first items as well. We're

14:01these sort of housekeeping items of

14:03organizing ourselves first. Um, I

14:06wonder, and that was my first question

14:08was when, um, but I wonder if we

14:12actually should talk a little bit about

14:15how we want to tackle this work first

14:18because that might inform the cadence

14:21question a [clears throat] little bit of

14:24are we thinking of divying up research

14:28and we're coming back to consult one

14:30another, in which case we're not

14:32thinking aloud through every problem

14:35that might condense our meetings a

14:36little bit or we need a lot of time to

14:39think between meetings. Do we need two

14:41or three weeks to think on it or do we

14:43meet more often? Does that make sense to

14:46think about how we're going to work to

14:49decide when we need to meet?

14:53Did you have any thoughts on that?

14:58>> I I have a lot of thoughts on that.

15:00[laughter]

15:01>> Please. Um, now I I agree. Um, I'm

15:06thinking though if you want some

15:08research, we could task one of us to do

15:11that research and bring it back to the

15:13committee.

15:13>> Yes, I know. I'm sorry. That is what I

15:15meant.

15:15>> That that is our purpose, not to

15:19not to take all of the council's time

15:22researching in depth when we can come

15:24back. And when we research, it's not

15:26like here it is. It's here are some

15:28options.

15:29>> That's what I was thinking. We need to

15:31get halfway there, not 100%.

15:33>> Right?

15:34>> Because I think we have some research

15:36leaning people on council. So if we

15:38bring the options forward to the

15:40council, they're going to deep dive

15:42>> anyways.

15:44>> Um, personally, I can make myself

15:46available for significant chunks of ch

15:49time fairly frequently. Yeah.

15:51>> If that's what we decide. If we decide

15:53that, you know, we we don't have the

15:54bandwidth.

15:55>> Yeah. Well, and I'm always willing to do

15:57weekends, too. Mhm.

15:58>> That's when I have the I [clears throat]

16:00could meet all day on a Saturday if you

16:02wanted to. I mean, that's we could also

16:05do it. We could plan a one long meeting

16:09and then check-ins, too. I think that

16:11might because of the work we need to do,

16:13so we can talk through it thoroughly.

16:14>> You've heard me complain, but sometimes

16:16we get really into the discussion and

16:18then, oh, we got to go.

16:20>> Um, and I to avoid that, we could

16:22potentially,

16:24>> not a retreat. I don't mean like a a a

16:27big meeting, but we could

16:29>> choose a date and time where we have say

16:31three hours

16:32>> and actually look at it as a work

16:33session

16:35>> of the committee and then have committee

16:38meetings that are more, you know, hour

16:39and a half block or an hour block or

16:41something like that.

16:42>> What do you think about that?

16:46Weekends are personally probably my

16:48worst time. But [laughter]

16:50>> okay, that could be a weekend,

16:51>> but that doesn't mean uh that

16:54especially, you know, in that concept of

16:56maybe devoting not every weekend, but

16:59maybe a chunk of one with regular uh I I

17:02could definitely make work. I mean, I

17:04want to be respectful of your schedule,

17:06Council Member Cohen Johnson.

17:08>> Well, if it's a non if it's a non-ouncil

17:10meeting week, I'm got a lot of freedom

17:13in the evenings.

17:14>> Okay. And when does evening start for

17:15you? How how early does the evening

17:18start for you?

17:18>> 5:15. Okay.

17:20>> Yeah.

17:20>> So to be safe 30

17:24>> 5:15 should be fine. My Australia work

17:26is done.

17:27>> So 5:15. What kind of

17:29>> conflict anymore?

17:29>> What kind of target length do you think?

17:31>> Oh, I'm good till midnight. [laughter]

17:34>> Yeah, my brain will probably shut down

17:36before then.

17:37>> Two hours.

17:38>> Two hours. Okay. I suppose, you know,

17:40and of course probably adjust as we get

17:42into this and realize either

17:44>> that's not enough or that's too much.

17:46Yep. Yep. And do we think uh weekly or

17:49bi-weekly on the off council meeting

17:52weeks? Is that what I heard from you?

17:54>> I'd be willing to meet on the Thursdays.

17:56We don't have council meetings.

17:58>> I think that might work for I don't know

18:01about you, but I don't plan anything on

18:02Thursdays.

18:03>> Yeah. And those are neither of my board

18:05meetings either. uh you know the once a

18:07month that that would conflict. Uh

18:09>> when is your board meeting?

18:10>> P&Z is Monday and EAB is Tuesday.

18:14>> Okay. Mine are on Wednesday.

18:15>> Okay. So it looks like we're pointing to

18:17Thursday.

18:18>> When do you have board meetings you need

18:20to be at?

18:21>> Looking at the calendar.

18:22>> Are they? Yeah. I don't know.

18:23>> So you're talking about off council

18:27meeting weeks like 17th.

18:30>> Out of town October 1st.

18:33>> I'm out of town. See, here we go. Yeah.

18:37Um, and then the 15th.

18:40Oh, 15th. We work, but that's already

18:42over a month. That's too long.

18:44>> And then find Well, if if we plan that

18:46as the regular cadency starting on the

18:4915th, perhaps. Then we could just find a

18:51couple of dates between now and then.

18:53>> Sure.

18:53>> Yeah. I mean, again, board meetings,

18:55it's only one potential date out of a

18:58whole month anyway.

18:59>> Yeah. I could do the 15th, I think.

19:03Yeah.

19:04That is our or of September. That is our

19:07quarterly.

19:07>> Oh, that's true. Never mind. Burnt out.

19:10>> Yes.

19:12>> 16.

19:18>> 17th works for me.

19:19>> And you know, uh, PNZ is also easy for

19:24me to catch up if need be because that

19:27one is streamed and recorded. So,

19:29Mondays could be a

19:31>> What time is the PNZ?

19:32>> 6:30. We could meet at 5 5:15 though and

19:35have

19:36>> I'd be here

19:36>> and you'd already be here if that works

19:38for you.

19:38>> The 14th

19:40>> that could be our first one.

19:43>> That definitely works for me.

19:50>> And then aim for weekly

19:55September 14th at 5:15 I'm hearing

20:02I am traveling

20:05the 30th through the six 17th.

20:08>> Okay.

20:08>> So, that's the only fly in the ointment.

20:11I'm gone for two weeks.

20:12>> What about the 20th of September? That's

20:15another Monday.

20:16>> Free as a bird.

20:18>> Oh, September.

20:19>> The 21st.

20:20>> Oh, I thought we were talking about

20:21September.

20:22>> Yes. Yeah. Um, yeah.

20:24>> 21st works for me for sure.

20:26>> All right. 21st. All right. So, now we

20:28got two meetings

20:30>> and two hours. That's 4 hours of

20:32meeting. Do we want to do one more?

20:33>> Yeah, we can do the 28th cuz you're

20:36leaving the 30th.

20:38>> I am leaving

20:40the 30th. Yes.

20:42>> Okay. So, [clears throat] I mean that's

20:43three meetings.

20:44>> Yeah. And that's six hours

20:46>> of committee meetings. So, I like that.

20:49And so, we should start with that.

20:5214th, 21st, and the 28th

20:56>> and and uh

21:01>> 515.

21:06Well, we do have our

21:093x4s as well to work around.

21:14>> I don't think that'll be as big of an

21:16issue. deep.

21:18>> Yeah, we can make that

21:19>> Tuesday 3x4s or something.

21:20>> We can look at something. Yes,

21:22>> I can also do lunchtime.

21:26>> Oh, I'm available. But you said lunch

21:29times are generally bad for you.

21:33>> Okay, let's stick with what we got.

21:35>> All right, so we have

21:38in front of you the slide that had all

21:42the items the committee was going to

21:45tackle. So I open it up to

21:50prioritization or you can just pick one

21:52and we'll start.

21:56>> So [snorts] yeah, I guess my question is

21:59are we jumping into some meat tonight?

22:02Um or are we going to divvy up

22:06the different areas and recommendations

22:10to come back to consult with one

22:11another? You can do that too if you feel

22:13like we need information before we make

22:15>> I would like to have a pre- discussion

22:16so nobody's chasing waterfalls and going

22:19down roads that

22:20>> let's do that

22:21>> necess I mean if there's all three of us

22:22are like

22:24>> um because I don't know about you but

22:26I've done nothing but obsess over all

22:27these recommendations for months now

22:29>> and I have quite a few thoughts on a lot

22:31of them. I suspect you guys do too.

22:33Yeah.

22:33>> Okay.

22:36In the spirit of

22:42smart prioritization,

22:44is there one on here that you y you all

22:45feel is more urgent than the others?

22:52>> Well,

22:54uh, our town attorney is with us. Lisa,

22:57do you mind if I rope you into the

22:59conversation? Um,

23:02so in terms of timing, so I I will admit

23:07to my colleagues of doing some diving

23:10myself into some of the research and so

23:14I'm hoping that Lisa can confirm for me

23:17some of of what I uncovered on my own.

23:21So I read the state statute governing

23:25our compensation and I found a UNCC

23:28school of government coats Canon's blog

23:30post about this that we can only adjust

23:36our compensation when we pass our budget

23:38ordinance so that we could make

23:41determinations but the earliest it could

23:43go into effect is when we pass our

23:45budget.

23:47And now I'm putting you on the spot.

23:49>> Yes. Let me you keep talking about other

23:51things.

23:52>> So I I will say uh my my non-legal

23:57interpretation, my layman's

23:59interpretation of that was that uh we

24:04can make these determinations now, but

24:06we won't be able to actually adjust the

24:09dollars that we see in our paychecks

24:11until we pass uh the budget next year.

24:14Um

24:15>> right. Or can we do them at our midyear?

24:18And so as I read this blog post

24:22>> and you know what mayor I'll admit too

24:24we have to talk about maybe some process

24:25amongst ourselves because even as our

24:27colleagues were sending us emails I did

24:30not share this research with either of

24:31you

24:32>> right

24:33>> not knowing yet exactly what our

24:35protocol will be. So you know we'll

24:37figure that out so that I'm not

24:39referencing things that you guys haven't

24:41seen yet and vice versa. Yeah. But my

24:43understanding is that the state statute

24:45here is actually quite explicit that

24:49where we have leeway to make budget

24:50adjustments throughout the fiscal year

24:52anywhere else

24:54>> okay

24:55>> not here that our only opportunity is

24:58with the budget ordinance which if that

25:00understanding is correct at least for

25:03that not that we shouldn't move promptly

25:05to make some determinations but in terms

25:08of it actually being enacted might give

25:10us some breathing room because We can't

25:13make those actual changes. Lisa,

25:15>> yes. So, I agree. Your compensation um

25:17is set in the budget ordinance the way

25:19the statute's written.

25:20>> Okay.

25:21>> So, that does that does take again not

25:24any urgency out of doing this review and

25:27coming to something we need to do in

25:29May. Yes.

25:30>> Not today.

25:31>> Yes.

25:32So, so getting back to the other part of

25:35that about information,

25:38>> um, I would

25:39>> I would hope and I'll look at Jenny as I

25:42say this

25:43>> that any documentation you have or any

25:45emails we receive

25:47>> can be part of the agenda so everybody

25:49can see it.

25:50>> Sure.

25:51>> Is that doable? So Jenny, like for

25:54example, when I found this coat Cannon's

25:56blog post,

25:58could I have just sent it to the mayor

26:00and council member Con Johnson and said,

26:02"This is part of our committee perview,

26:04or should I CC all of town council on

26:06it?" How would you recommend I we handle

26:10committee communications?

26:12>> Well, that's that's our discussion, not

26:14Jenny's discussion. I'm getting to the

26:16documents.

26:18>> Um I want to have all documents viewable

26:21by the public. Okay,

26:22>> we have a shared notes document where

26:24you could include a link something like

26:26that. Then anybody public whoever wants

26:28to see it can see it

26:29>> and the best way to do it is to get it

26:31bring it to your meeting.

26:32>> Okay. Printed is what you tell us to

26:34print it for you. And that's what I do

26:36with this is and so that way it becomes

26:38part of the minutes.

26:39>> Okay.

26:40>> But then people can't see what we are

26:42discussing until minutes are approved.

26:44>> I would rather them to be able to look

26:47at what we're talking about when we're

26:49talking about it. we can add it to the

26:51um if you send it to me beforehand and

26:52ask for it to be added to the agenda, we

26:55can add it that way.

26:56>> That's that's what I prefer. And if we

26:58get emails also send that to you and say

27:00this was also sent as part of uh our

27:04resour shared notes document so we're

27:06all every agenda has the same link to

27:09all the resources.

27:10>> You um so you're talking about like a

27:12shared folder maybe

27:14>> just a a word doc with links in it and

27:16>> that kind of thing. I think you'd want

27:18it to you want it to be static at some

27:21point and you wouldn't want it to be um

27:23editable by you all so that you're

27:26accidentally deleting one and then

27:28somebody's blamed like where did that

27:29go? So there has to be a point in time

27:31in which like this agenda. Yes. Yeah.

27:34>> So while you could keep your own and you

27:36could say hey can you attach my notes to

27:38the agenda then we could certainly do

27:40that.

27:41>> And what kind of time frame do you need

27:43to make all that happen? like 24 hours

27:46before or an hour before.

27:48>> Our typical process is that we post the

27:50agenda um of course we notice the

27:52meetings out further but post the agenda

27:54the Friday before the meetings.

27:55>> Okay.

27:56>> So if you had it that Friday but even um

28:00yeah that that Friday before they don't

28:02post it.

28:04>> So if something happens between the

28:06Friday and the Monday what do we do with

28:08that document?

28:09>> Yeah. Um I would say let us either bring

28:12a printed copy or let us have printed

28:14copy or um [clears throat]

28:17we can

28:20we can I don't want to like I know this

28:23our first meeting but we could add it

28:24during the meeting if we need it to

28:26>> as long as the agenda and it's there for

28:30>> you add it to the meeting so we could

28:31upload a document it might if you wanted

28:34to add it I would say not trying to do

28:36it real time but if you could have it

28:38like an hour beforehand in and give me a

28:40call and say, "I'm going to bring this

28:41up and I want this on the agenda." A lot

28:43of times we do that for board meetings.

28:45It's a um easier to publish a shorter

28:48agenda like for the committee than it is

28:50a longer council agenda. So, we can

28:52update that a little bit more.

28:54>> Oh, okay.

28:56>> So, that was a roundabout answer to how

28:59urgent are all of these or if there's

29:01any that stand out. Um, again, I I'm not

29:04proposing that just because this

29:05couldn't be enacted until we pass next

29:08year's budget that it's any less of a

29:11priority, but just if the notion is, you

29:13know, for had we been thinking, for

29:15example, well, let's change our

29:17compensation now because I want that

29:19reflected in my paycheck ASAP,

29:21apparently the soonest it could be

29:23reflected in our

29:24>> and I I did advocate for that one first

29:26because it to me it's one of the simpler

29:28ones to solve.

29:29>> Yeah.

29:29>> Yeah. Um,

29:30>> which coming up with that answer sooner

29:33rather than later is still completely

29:35>> but did did the blog give you an

29:37indication of what counts as

29:40compensation does

29:43>> I believe salary and allowance but I

29:46don't think that would be if we were

29:49thinking of let's say a pot of expense

29:52money that we would pull for training

29:54and travel I think that's not

29:57compensation

29:58>> right I think it would be your salary

30:00And then the like the four allowances

30:02that you have today.

30:03>> Okay.

30:04>> So that would all need to be set into

30:06the next budget

30:07>> because that's a policy

30:09>> because it's compensation.

30:10>> That's compensation, but travel and

30:12training is separate. So that's

30:14something we could

30:16>> we could so we could break that up.

30:18>> Employees salary and things are also

30:20characterized

30:24>> and you can make the decision now and

30:25you can put it be ready to put it in the

30:27budget.

30:28>> Yes. And I would suggest the budget

30:30folks would appreciate knowing that

30:31information

30:33>> sooner rather than later. So like

30:35January, February, they would love to

30:36know so they can plug that into the

30:38budget.

30:39>> So I don't know, mayor, would it be

30:41helpful if we just dug in? I think

30:44council member Cohen Johnson might have

30:46a lot to say. Do we want the catharsis

30:48right now of just spilling all of our

30:51thoughts on all of the things and then

30:52taking from that messy soup where we go

30:54from there? I I would prefer tackling

30:57state auditors stuff first because they

31:00have the deadlines they want met. Um the

31:04womble bond Dickinson is the uh third

31:08party we had do an investigation. There

31:11are no deadlines. Well, we want to act

31:14as quickly as possible but there are no

31:16deadlines associated with it. Same thing

31:18with cherry becker recommendations. So

31:21stay

31:22>> overlap. Right.

31:23>> Right. So definitely do state auditors

31:27uh items first and get those to the

31:30council as soon as possible.

31:33So that's really then we're talking

31:35about creating a policy for travel for

31:38reimbursements

31:41>> ignoring compensation and

31:45>> or you know I mean it's the you know for

31:48example the well I guess that's Cherry

31:50Becker is more compensation you know I'm

31:53looking at CBO3 because that one was

31:55combined you know it says conferences

31:57training stipens car allowances so I

31:59mean that was kind of an all of the

32:01above

32:02But for the auditor,

32:05it's travel, meal expenses, training,

32:09and education.

32:10>> Yeah. Just reimbursement and and the

32:13approval process, too.

32:14>> So, what do we when I look at that, I'm

32:17like, what information do I need to make

32:19that recommendation? So, that's what I'm

32:21asking. And you, what do you need to

32:23know

32:23>> to make that recommend? Do we have my

32:26understanding is for some of these

32:27things we do not currently have policy.

32:30>> Mhm.

32:31>> Right. And I am not one to go to

32:34conferences or travel.

32:37>> Right. Because I have a full-time job.

32:39>> So I don't know even what the common

32:41practices were.

32:44>> Um don't necessarily need to know that

32:46to know what I feel is appropriate or

32:48inappropriate.

32:50>> So which one exactly? Let's let's put a

32:53label on these. Which one are you

32:54looking at?

32:54>> I think a travel policy and a

32:56reimbursement policy. Um and and it to

33:00me when I was reading through this and

33:02[clears throat] I changed my mind a

33:03couple of times, but at a certain point

33:06it seemed as though a council policy

33:09that was holistic when it comes to

33:12expenses incurred on a council member's

33:14behalf paid for by the town.

33:17>> Okay. as as strangely explicit as that

33:20sounds because it's not it's not whether

33:22or not we can go to a conference without

33:24approval going to that. It's in what

33:26much like the the gayla

33:28>> next week when is the town buying the

33:31ticket? When are we buying the ticket?

33:33There's those things that we don't have

33:34sort of a set this is what always

33:36happens or this is um the policy.

33:38>> I I agree. I I think think travel

33:42outside of Kerry or outside the triangle

33:45might actually be easier for us to

33:47define and put some parameters on. I

33:50think it's going to be all of the

33:52community events that we're invited to

33:55that we're going to have to parse more

33:58carefully. That's going to be tricky.

33:59But I suppose we'll still lump that

34:02under travel

34:05or what

34:05>> reimbursements or

34:07>> you you could we can make any

34:09recommendations we want. I mean we could

34:11have one for travel and one for for

34:14regional

34:16>> events. Yes. Or whatever. I thought what

34:18made sense to me was a policy governing

34:21what the town will and will not pay for

34:24a council member considering everything

34:27outside of what is explicitly permitted

34:30is out of scope and not permitted and

34:32then a process

34:34for except exceptions always come up.

34:36There's something that we didn't

34:37consider or it's new or it's just a

34:39little bit different and then a process

34:42to approve something that may be

34:45exempted. it's not it's not explicitly

34:47included but may be deemed appropriate

34:49by

34:50>> the majority of council or something

34:52like that.

34:52>> So to me it's that there's overlapping a

34:55cherry becker

34:56>> state auditor

34:58>> and I think two of the womble bond

35:00Dickinson one really is just a policy on

35:02what the town will and won't pay for

35:03when it comes to council separate from

35:05staff.

35:06>> Does that make sense?

35:08>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a question I have

35:11for Jenny is

35:14I think, you know, because I I have the

35:16same um struggle with how much does the

35:22past inform where we go from here

35:24because in some ways it's more of an

35:26academic question. It doesn't really

35:28matter because we find ourselves here

35:30and we're making policy for the future.

35:32But I think in this case it would be

35:34helpful to know if we have any guiding

35:37principles now and are we defining them

35:40more clearly or are we creating them

35:42from whole cloth and then also having

35:45Jenny help us think about the practical

35:48implications because I imagine a lot of

35:50this would fall to the clerk's office of

35:55I don't want us to think of a solution

35:58that from our side of the equation

36:00sounds nice and

36:02work for the clerks,

36:03>> right? And then we've invented a very

36:06complicated accounting system. Um, and

36:09so, you know, just throwing both of

36:12those um factors into the mix of do we

36:16have anything currently to serve as um a

36:22launching pad of sorts? and then also

36:25having you help us think through some of

36:27the practical implications of of

36:30anything that we talk about.

36:33>> So, [clears throat] um, currently it's

36:34up to the council member, but we do

36:36email the council member when they're

36:38invited to things that there is a ticket

36:40cost to it and say to them, would you

36:42like us to purchase it with town funds

36:44or will you be purchasing it on your

36:46own? And then we go off of whatever that

36:48council

36:49>> and so right now that that is just

36:51entirely our individual discretion.

36:53>> Yes. Yeah.

36:54>> And then it also dovtales into gift

36:57limits

36:58>> and it it headbutts the ethics

37:01challenges of accepting

37:04>> a $100 ticket to something. Um, you

37:06know,

37:07>> yeah, because you know, one

37:10system

37:11could be, and I think this is akin to

37:14what Raleigh does, um, we'll have to

37:17take the deep dive on that. Maybe that's

37:18some research that we come back with. Um

37:20but is having a pot of money and then we

37:25as a body decide if any given expense

37:29>> through a vote um is something that

37:32we're saying is a council is a

37:35legitimate town related council expense

37:37or not. Um and then it doesn't have to

37:41be quite so prescribed,

37:44you know, for staff to

37:45>> approve. Exactly. Um whereas instead of

37:49right now, you know, where it's up to

37:50each individual council member to

37:53deliberate in private and then make this

37:55determination that we're doing it

37:57collectively as a body.

37:59>> Yeah. And and I that solves for the one

38:03concern that I bring with me about

38:05particularly travel after the fact.

38:07multiple times I was like, "Oh, you went

38:09where and did what?" And then I would

38:10actually also know and hey, love to get

38:12a report back. What did you learn? You

38:14know, what they say about this at the

38:15conference, that kind of thing. Um, and

38:17I think the broader council knowing,

38:20>> um, there's just a lot of benefit to

38:22that. So, it's not, you know, surprise

38:24travel.

38:26>> And we probably need to get information

38:27about what is a gift and what is not a

38:30gift. Uh, especially.

38:32>> Yeah. I mean, tomorrow I'm speaking at

38:35the chamber

38:36>> thing and there's a dinner included. I'm

38:40haven't been build for it, so I assume

38:42I'm not paying for it. Is that a gift?

38:45>> Uh because I'm I'm working, I'm

38:47speaking. Or do I go and speak and not

38:49eat?

38:50>> I mean, that's fine, too. I mean, I

38:52weigh 147 pounds. I care less if I eat

38:54or not eat. But [laughter]

38:56but I mean I just need to know uh what's

39:00a gift and what's not a gift and and

39:02what we should do. Uh because I'm

39:04definitely not about the food. So

39:07>> it's nice of you to flex by declaring

39:09yourself at my goal weight. [laughter]

39:11>> Would you like to share your weight as

39:12well?

39:14>> I also decline. [laughter]

39:17>> So any information we can get to help us

39:21determine

39:22>> Yeah. that.

39:22>> Yeah. Because I mean I think the gray

39:25area that we find ourselves in right now

39:27is just really complicated. You know, uh

39:29this was uh an invitation that I believe

39:32the rest of us got mayor was to a League

39:35of Women Voters event um a couple of

39:37weeks ago and we were being invited as

39:41elected officials in a celebration of

39:43women serving in office.

39:46And so it was to me that was tangental

39:50to our role but was not actually the

39:52execution of town business. So for me,

39:56you know, in the gray area, my personal

39:57determination was that was a personal

39:59expense. Um, and that shouldn't be a

40:01town expense, but that left six of us

40:04women to make that determination on our

40:06own. And so just having a process, a

40:10protocol so that we're not in this gray

40:13area. Uh whether it's, you know, however

40:15we decide to do it, if it's a list of

40:18really prescribed scenarios or if it's

40:22more open with this pot of money and how

40:24we decide if it's appropriate or not as

40:26seven of us vote on it. Um I think it'll

40:29be a relief to know so that you don't

40:32have the question of can I eat at a

40:33chamber dinner tomorrow.

40:35>> Yeah. I doubt that that's going to meet

40:36the perdemium. Of course, perdeium means

40:39per day.

40:40>> Yes.

40:40>> So, it probably does. I have no idea.

40:44>> Um

40:44>> well, we can provide more guidance. The

40:46um

40:48a lot of times it's a very individual

40:50individualized decision as to whether

40:51something needs to be looked at under

40:53the gifts and favor statutes. Um for the

40:56chamber, yes, because we have a contract

40:58with them. For the League of Women

41:00Voters, no, because we don't have a

41:02contract with them as far as I know. So,

41:04and then you kind of have to look at

41:05each one and is there an exception to

41:06the rule and etc etc. So, in terms of

41:09the gifts and favors aspect, we won't be

41:12able to [laughter]

41:14we won't be able to solve that. I do

41:16plan to have for you all fair fairly

41:19soon uh kind of a one one pager kind of

41:22thing um basics of gifts and favors just

41:26to reiterate some things we've talked

41:27about in your various orientations over

41:29the years but to kind of put it on a

41:31piece of paper so that you have it and

41:33so that you know because there are

41:35exceptions for things like you're at a

41:36conference and everybody gets a free pen

41:39that's totally fine you're at a

41:40conference everybody's everybody's

41:43invited to the lunch that's fine you

41:45know So there's some certain things that

41:46are like okay and some certain things

41:49that are not okay and then everything

41:50else kind of lands in the middle.

41:52>> Yeah, that's helpful.

41:55They just covered that. I just retook

41:56the ethics training.

41:58>> Um and it seemed as though if it's

42:01everybody

42:03that is a hurdle towards okay then it's

42:06it's okay if everybody's having lunch or

42:08everybody's having dinner. Um, but the

42:10the contract part I think is where it

42:13gets a little

42:15dicey.

42:17>> Yeah. Okay.

42:17>> We do when we tell you about these

42:20events, we do try to label it if you

42:22there's a contract or not. I'm sure

42:23you've seen those emails from us and

42:25what's covered and not covered.

42:30>> Sorry, I'm taking notes.

42:32>> So, I mean, I wonder if I mean this this

42:35is how my type A brain works. My answer

42:38to how will we figure out any of this is

42:40probably

42:42research best practices. How are our

42:43peer communities doing it? Coming up

42:45with several examples and then thinking

42:47through the pros and cons of how it

42:49would work in practice.

42:53Yeah. I mean, not for every single

42:56thing, but

42:58>> for these for these big buckets, I mean,

43:00>> we're also we're I'll play devil's

43:03advocate with that approach because I

43:05think there's probably a majority of

43:06council members that would take that

43:08deep dive everything

43:09>> and who's who how is everybody doing it

43:13and how should we do it based off of

43:15that and there's a time and place for

43:17that. But we're in a unique pot of

43:19boiling water right now. And I think

43:22what I would go out and research is what

43:25is the safest

43:27>> path.

43:28>> What is the maybe sometimes most

43:30restrictive? What is the most

43:31straightforward? Which is the most

43:33difficult to mess up?

43:35>> What is the most straightforward and

43:36transparent? And I don't I don't so much

43:40care that a majority of cities and towns

43:43and local governments are doing it this

43:45way.

43:46I would look and say, you know what, the

43:48safest way for us to do that so that we

43:51are um earning trust back is this. And

43:54so that's what the things that I've been

43:56reading,

43:57>> I I was like, okay, I I started my

43:59research different. Hey, of all the

44:02tones of municipalities that have found

44:04themselves facing difficult economic

44:07challenges, you know, having to increase

44:09taxes, um, and then having, you know,

44:12whether it be a bad actor or other

44:15financial challenges, what did they do

44:16to correct for it?

44:18>> And that's really I I focused entirely

44:21in that space. I do believe that some of

44:24the things that we we recommend

44:27solutions for here are going to be

44:28short-term solutions with the

44:30expectation that there will be a

44:31different long-term

44:33>> solution too. So, I'm also looking for

44:36>> not quick wins necessarily, but

44:38sometimes, but looking for the

44:39short-term solutions just to make

44:41absolutely sure that whatever problems

44:42we've experienced in the last two years,

44:44we don't experience six months from now.

44:46Because if we take a year or two to fix

44:48some of this stuff,

44:50>> we're in that gray area too long. And

44:52it's, you know, even with the best of

44:53intentions, people will stumble in a

44:54gray area.

44:56>> I just mixed a lot of metaphors there,

44:57but you know what I mean.

44:58>> Yeah. Yeah. No, and I I agree. I um I

45:02think the best solution is it

45:04necessarily the most popular solution.

45:06So, you know, thinking more about

45:08examples that feel [clears throat] like

45:10the right fit for us. Um it doesn't even

45:13have to necessarily be a representative

45:14sample. We just have to find examples

45:16that seem to resonate with solving the

45:19problem that we're looking for a

45:21solution for. Correct.

45:22>> And you know, maybe having three of

45:24those, thinking through the pros and

45:26cons of three different ways of

45:28approaching it

45:29>> and

45:30>> and we could bring our recommendations

45:32with a right now solution and then down

45:34the road sort of like the way we

45:36approached the moratorum, right? It

45:38wasn't uh

45:38>> we didn't make a decision on it.

45:41>> We allowed time to make a thorough

45:43decision on it. I think that might be

45:45appropriate for our compensation. Um,

45:47making that decision to in a final final

45:51way for future councils I think is,

45:56>> you know, a little bit challenging. It

45:59just doesn't feel exactly right because

46:02>> I would take the most conservative

46:04approach I could think of for that. But

46:05that's not necessarily a five years from

46:08now solution, right?

46:10>> Same thing with the policy.

46:11>> Yeah. on that particular topic from what

46:13I remember from years ago and I don't

46:15remember all of it

46:16>> we were trying to take the politics out

46:18of it

46:19>> and so whatever we decided which is what

46:21we have today was to take effect after

46:24the next election

46:25>> right right

46:26>> and that should be the same this time

46:28>> so if you're going to change policy that

46:30people will criticize I don't care what

46:31we come up with

46:33>> that's fine but it's going to be after

46:34the next election so if you don't like

46:36us you can throw us out and get somebody

46:37else and they can put in whatever policy

46:40you want I That should be our

46:44>> very good.

46:46Yeah.

46:48I think

46:50I also saying all that well contradict

46:53myself and say also I'm not trying to

46:55enact punitive policy either. So that's

46:59where I think the best practices do make

47:01a lot of sense. There's no need to

47:03create future work if we can solve for

47:04it now.

47:06>> Right.

47:06>> Yeah.

47:06>> And so there's that's where some of the

47:08research is is important.

47:09>> Yeah. I think for

47:13travel and training in particular,

47:16it would be helpful to know

47:19how much we're spending now because

47:21right now, I mean, to the best of my

47:24knowledge, it's peace meal, right?

47:26Because we're just we're making these

47:28determinations. Yes, I'm attending this.

47:30No, I'll pay for myself here. So, I

47:33don't even know how big the potential

47:36bucket is. Um, you know, if we were if

47:40we wound up with a solution that was

47:42like a, you know, a bucket kind of idea,

47:45whether it applied to individual members

47:46or council as a body, I I genuinely

47:49don't even know what that figure would

47:51be.

47:52>> We could we could find that out.

47:53>> Yeah.

47:54>> And maybe by your

47:57next council meeting,

47:59>> I mean, sorry, next meeting. Yeah. And

48:01part of the solution, and I know I'm

48:04getting a little in the weeds, is

48:07anytime a council member has any

48:10expense, even indirectly, to do

48:13something, it there's got to be a way to

48:15report it

48:16>> because do we know how much

48:17transportation cost? No. Do we know

48:20this? No. And that can't happen anymore.

48:22We've got to know how much everything

48:24costs before it's spent. Mhm.

48:29>> And then we could bring stuff think

48:32about this that might be a reporting out

48:33mechanism.

48:35>> Yeah.

48:38>> All right. So, we've been pretty high

48:40level.

48:41>> Yeah.

48:41>> Uh do we want to review what we have so

48:43far and then decide what to do next or

48:46do we want to dive in on a particular

48:48one?

48:50>> Come up with here's a list of things we

48:52need to solve this one.

48:54>> Yeah. Well, so in my mind, all we've

48:57talked about so far is travel slash

49:00whatever we call the local events we

49:02attend. Yeah.

49:03>> Travel SLevents

49:04>> and then there's meals and then Yep.

49:07>> Yes. Um

49:09yeah, I guess meals

49:13is in the same category.

49:15>> Sure.

49:16>> Okay. like if uh I'm invited to meet

49:22with someone in the development

49:25community and they buy me lunch, that's

49:27a problem, I think.

49:29>> Well, it's an ethical problem, but it's

49:31not a

49:32>> depends. Yeah,

49:33>> it's not a problem.

49:34>> We need to come up with guidelines, I

49:36think. And I think just to focus on what

49:38the state auditor's office said, um they

49:42were looking at meals associated more

49:44and council member Richard said out of

49:46town travel.

49:48>> Um so they um you know looking at things

49:50like that and what expenses were for

49:52things that were out of town.

49:54>> Yeah. Yeah. And as I understand it, the

49:57prediums apply

50:00out of town. Is that determined by

50:01mileage?

50:02>> Uh no. So pdeiums, we don't have a

50:05council policy on this.

50:06>> Okay.

50:06>> PDMs apply for staff travel out of town.

50:10There are set, it's a federal

50:11government. Yeah.

50:12>> They set their rates regionally, but

50:15>> there's a set PDM for breakfast.

50:17>> There's a set amount for lunch. There's

50:19a set amount for dinner.

50:21>> Um and so we know what those are at the

50:24staff level. Um,

50:27>> yeah, because I think, you know, in that

50:29scenario

50:31that still is more of just, you know,

50:33us, uh, adhering to our ethical

50:36guidelines, but I think this is more of

50:40on the town's dime, you know, especially

50:43dining with staff or staff local, you

50:47know, having meals with staff locally

50:49and who is paying for what. um I have

50:53yet to experience that on council. So

50:56those scenarios are all hypothetical to

50:59me. So I would defer to my more tenured

51:02colleagues that have more real world

51:05examples of how that comes up.

51:07>> Yeah.

51:08>> And how to think through that.

51:09>> Well, and to the the local meals, the at

51:12town hall meals, that that to me is

51:13wholly and entirely separate. Um those

51:16are more often than not a function of

51:18we're asking you to work a 12 to 20 hour

51:21day and work through meals. Yes,

51:23>> that's a separate thing. To me,

51:26>> the sensible thing to do the the travel

51:29and reimbursement policy for council

51:31members should mirror the one for staff.

51:34>> And to me, this is the simplest one to

51:37>> 100%.

51:38>> And and just can you tell me what it is?

51:42>> No. And that's and well and that's the

51:44other problem like you know we've said

51:46before we had policy that wasn't

51:48followed too

51:50>> and we don't have a good reimbursement

51:55procedure. The procedure is one of the

51:58staff often puts it on their PE card and

52:00then we go do whatever it is we did and

52:02it's out of our hands and we don't worry

52:04about it where it's not a

52:05>> you have a receipt and send it to Jenny

52:08>> and she and she handles whatever

52:10paperwork there is

52:12>> and that's not a

52:13>> I know that was right that's what you

52:14said earlier. Yeah. So the policy

52:17mirroring staff that's only part of the

52:20battle, you know, how do you go about

52:21paying for it and how do you go about

52:24appropriate reimbursements? Who approves

52:26it? Who reviews it? Who makes sure it's

52:28within policy?

52:30>> Is it on your honor? Those are the

52:31things I think that need to be hammered

52:33out.

52:34>> And we can share staff's current travel

52:36standard procedure.

52:38>> Um, and staff is reviewing that and our

52:41parallel work on the other

52:42recommendations. So that's being looked

52:44at right now, but there is an existing

52:45standard procedure. So we can share that

52:48with you. I think you will see questions

52:50that you asked council member Con

52:52Johnson, you know, that talks about who

52:54approves staff travel.

52:56>> So it's a different question for who

52:57approves council travel and and again

53:00that's not reimbursement based, it's PDM

53:02based. So no matter what you spend on

53:04dinner, your PDM reimbursement is

53:06whatever the rate is for PDM

53:08reimbursement dinner,

53:09>> right?

53:12Yeah, it's a big bucket. [laughter]

53:14>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but but

53:17realistically,

53:19um

53:21the challenging part to me is how do we

53:23enforce it and who reviews it and who

53:25approves it and that like that's sort of

53:27the

53:28>> I mean, we just make the mayor do it.

53:30[laughter]

53:31>> I don't think so.

53:34>> He says motion does not pass.

53:36>> Yeah. Well, there's there's a

53:40there's

53:42a how much travel. That's the other

53:45thing. Like I don't really know how

53:49in the day council members

53:52went on chamber trips for Raleigh and

53:55Kerry. They went to

54:00conferences.

54:02I'm trying to reme remember way back,

54:04not as much recently, but they went to

54:07whatever conferences they wanted. I

54:08remember a council member many many

54:10years ago going to several conferences a

54:13year.

54:14>> Okay.

54:14>> Um stuff like that. So I think we need

54:18some guidelines around that. What is an

54:21appropriate conference or if it's not

54:24appropriate then that's on your dime not

54:26on the town's

54:27>> dime.

54:29I've been on one one chamber trip so I

54:31don't have frame of reference that's

54:33helpful here. And

54:34>> in defense of that, a lot of things we

54:38have seen and we have done including

54:40downtown Terry Park and from trips out

54:42of town.

54:43>> Yeah.

54:44>> Um so a lot of the ideas we get come

54:46from those trips. So those are very

54:48valuable trips. However, we do need to

54:51know and control those costs.

54:53>> Yeah.

54:55>> Yeah. But I think the out of town travel

54:59to me seems most straightforward. I

55:02think we can adapt staff's guidelines.

55:05The devil will be in the details of like

55:07you said how to track and account for

55:09it, but at least in terms of what the

55:11prescribed policy is. That seems pretty

55:14straightforward to me.

55:15>> And it shouldn't be an open budget item

55:17either. It should be council's allotted

55:19this amount of money

55:20>> for travel

55:22>> and then we all go to the chamber annual

55:25whatever

55:26>> and we spent all the money and like

55:27you're done.

55:28>> You can't go to anything else, you know.

55:30>> Oh, that's a good point.

55:32>> Yeah, that's budgeting 101.

55:34>> People Yeah, people need to know we need

55:36to know you've budgeted this item to do

55:39this and that's it. once you've spent

55:42that money. So when you want to go to a

55:44conference that's appropriate, you can

55:46ask how much money do we have left? Can

55:48I afford to go there? And maybe it takes

55:50council approval to do that. I don't

55:52know. Just thought something.

55:54>> Yeah,

55:55>> I'm like, yeah, I hear you want to go to

55:57that, but that's really not a good use

55:59of taxpayer dollars.

56:02>> I did know out there. I think when you

56:04do your research, you'll see there's

56:05some cities that put a per dollar amount

56:08per council member. Mhm.

56:10>> I like that.

56:11>> Mhm.

56:11>> I like that.

56:12>> Yeah.

56:14>> That to me could make a lot of sense.

56:17>> Mhm.

56:18>> Having it per council member, but the

56:21expenses may be still approved as a body

56:23like you said, so that we all we have

56:25some visibility.

56:28>> We have some accountability of whether

56:30it's appropriate, but then it leaves the

56:32budgeting up to us on an individual

56:34level. uh you know maybe you know some

56:37of us have different priorities to fill

56:39knowledge gaps. You know a conference of

56:41one sort might be more helpful for one

56:43of us than another. Um

56:46>> and then we get to to

56:49budget and account for it individually.

56:52>> And once we've surpassed that as a

56:55council member we have a certain a lot

56:57of money doesn't mean we have to stop.

57:00>> It's just on you.

57:01>> Yeah.

57:01>> Yeah. Mhm.

57:02>> So it's not like we're discouraging

57:04things. Yep.

57:05>> Okay. Like that idea.

57:07>> I like that. That feels fairer.

57:10>> Um and that, you know, like somebody

57:12like me who I can't really travel much

57:15that

57:16>> perhaps then somebody says, "Hey, you

57:18know, I've used my bucket. This is

57:19important. You know,

57:21>> can we dip into your bucket?"

57:23>> Yeah. Um, especially if it's like you

57:26said, we need ideas for this thing or we

57:28really need to see this affordable

57:29housing in person so we understand if

57:31it's appropriate or if it would work,

57:33whatever it is. Um,

57:36>> maybe it can be transferable

57:39>> because it's so the retired people

57:41travel more. [laughter]

57:43>> They just do,

57:44>> right? Or the people with jobs that are

57:49>> so flexible. I'm so jealous. But

57:51>> yeah.

57:51>> Yeah,

57:52>> I think that could all make a lot of

57:54sense.

57:56>> So, this to me seems like a lot of

57:59brainstorming.

58:00>> Mhm.

58:00>> Do we continue with this? We're closing

58:03in on the 1 hour mark.

58:04>> I mean, I keep going.

58:05>> Oh, I'm not saying stop.

58:07>> No, no, no. I mean, I would I would keep

58:08Yeah, I'd keep going through the others

58:10and then, you know, so maybe we get a

58:12little big picture here and then before

58:14we uh adjourn tonight, we decide next

58:18steps what we do with all of this.

58:20information we've thrown out at one

58:22another.

58:23>> Yeah. I mean, maybe we could even go and

58:25draft sample policies for picking apart.

58:28Sometimes it helps to see it written,

58:30>> too.

58:30>> Oh, yeah.

58:31>> Like, here's what I heard. Is this what

58:32I heard? You know, here's a stab and oh,

58:35that's good. That's bad.

58:36>> I thought about it. We should add this.

58:39>> Yeah.

58:39>> I work better from something than from a

58:41blank piece of paper. Yes. How my brain

58:43works.

58:44>> Great.

58:46>> All right. What next?

58:48Training to me is the natural companion

58:50to travel because it's so closely

58:52related but a little bit different. Um I

58:56think again there will be gray area in

58:59what constitutes training versus an

59:03event. Um you know or the conferences I

59:07mean especially the conferences we have

59:08locally

59:10I think of them as education

59:11opportunities. So to me that falls in

59:14more of a training category than a

59:16travel category. But you know what it

59:18might be a distinction without a

59:20difference if we do go to this bucket

59:21idea. If the if the you know budget cap

59:24for each individual member covers travel

59:26and training then

59:29>> that would be a distinction for us to

59:31make. Um

59:32>> still think it ought to be a council

59:34vote and transparent. So

59:36>> if you want to do something then the

59:38rest of the council's like I don't know.

59:40>> Yes. But

59:40>> then the public can comment on it. You

59:42know, I see on your consent agenda, you

59:45got this council member going to

59:47wherever.

59:48>> Agreed. But if we do do it that way, we

59:51don't necessarily have to have such

59:53rigid definitions of what is travel,

59:54what is training, if it's all sort of

59:56the same bucket of money, and then we

59:58all have to decide whether it's

1:00:00legitimate, no matter what you call it.

1:00:05>> Yes. I'm thinking of the affordable

1:00:07housing conference next month in

1:00:09Raleigh. Um, you know, if we had a

1:00:12really rigid policy and we had to

1:00:13distinguish is that travel, is that

1:00:15training, what applies? But I think

1:00:17we're thinking of something maybe a

1:00:18little more broad that it wouldn't

1:00:20really matter what

1:00:21>> or we could add something explicit like

1:00:23attendance fees. Mhm.

1:00:25>> Like if it costs money for you to

1:00:27physically be in the room, that's a

1:00:29different kind of fee than than travel

1:00:31or

1:00:33>> um there's training and education which

1:00:36is

1:00:37>> there's a line between the like hearing

1:00:39a keynote and learning about ethics.

1:00:43>> Those are or leadership. I was looking

1:00:45at this program at school of government

1:00:47um this training program for for

1:00:49leadership and that's to me very

1:00:52different than you know going to a

1:00:54conference but

1:00:55>> I do believe all of what you just said

1:00:57is valid and I also think we need to

1:01:00have a hard cap.

1:01:01>> Yeah.

1:01:01>> Like well because that's it because then

1:01:03to the mayor's point you budget

1:01:05accordingly. So, if you want to bl you

1:01:08want to blow your individual council

1:01:09member budget on a couple of uh

1:01:11conferences in Raleigh and you didn't

1:01:14leave yourself enough money to do some

1:01:15other things, well then

1:01:16>> a bucket of money solves for that and

1:01:20the policy should be explicit on who

1:01:22approves these things. So, what we don't

1:01:25want is any more um things going to

1:01:27staff to approve a council member's

1:01:29activities. that council member

1:01:31activities have to be approved by and

1:01:33publicly approved by council

1:01:35>> whether it's on consent or whatever it

1:01:38is

1:01:38>> or a little bit of time at work

1:01:40sessions.

1:01:41>> Yeah.

1:01:42>> Because I think it would be fair

1:01:45to let a member pitch why it's

1:01:49important.

1:01:51>> True.

1:01:52>> You know,

1:01:52>> defend it to the public. If you can't

1:01:54defend it, you shouldn't be going

1:01:55>> in a public meeting.

1:01:57>> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Agree.

1:02:01Yeah. I mean, because we're so lucky,

1:02:03not only to have the school of

1:02:05government in North Carolina, but for us

1:02:08here in the triangle, for it to be in

1:02:09our backyard, and as you know, I've

1:02:12availed myself now of several courses to

1:02:14take. I mean, that for me, if any one of

1:02:17my colleagues came and said out of my

1:02:18bucket, I want to attend a school of

1:02:20government or uh league and CLM uh

1:02:23training, I mean, that would be an easy

1:02:25yes for me. But, you know, again, if

1:02:27we're if we're accounting for a cap on

1:02:30ourselves, then we don't have to parse

1:02:33now in in a written policy exactly what

1:02:36qualifies or doesn't

1:02:38>> and what part of that is paid for. It's

1:02:40certainly not the golf fees. It's the

1:02:43it's the money you have to pay to get

1:02:45into the door and hear the educational

1:02:48content. Yeah.

1:02:49>> So, it might make sense. I hate to be

1:02:51prescriptive, but and I think Lisa is

1:02:54going to cringe when I say this, a

1:02:56non-exhaustive list of things that are

1:02:59excluded. And I know that kind of leans

1:03:01into

1:03:02>> be an example list

1:03:03>> or an example list. Exactly. Like, you

1:03:05know, such as these types of things just

1:03:07to make sure that people don't

1:03:10>> that there's clarity in in what is

1:03:12intended in the policy and we don't have

1:03:14people sort of guessing

1:03:16>> what is and isn't. Mhm.

1:03:18>> And but we can also probably achieve

1:03:20that by saying the only things that can

1:03:21be reimbured with town funds are that

1:03:25you know the

1:03:26registration fee, your PDM meal fees and

1:03:30hotel accommodations

1:03:32according to policy under these

1:03:34circumstances and then that's it too. We

1:03:36could also keep it really sort of

1:03:38>> No, that's a really good point because

1:03:40we wouldn't want to suggest that you

1:03:41have this pot of money that you could

1:03:43spend then on the golf outing instead.

1:03:45Sorry, mayor.

1:03:46>> I don't play golf. He doesn't golf.

1:03:48That's why he is that specific. I'm good

1:03:50with it.

1:03:50>> Tennis tournaments. [laughter]

1:03:53>> I don't know what those kinds of fees

1:03:54are.

1:03:55>> Uh but you're right that even if the

1:03:59merits of a particular event or venue

1:04:02are warranted,

1:04:05that doesn't mean that all expenses

1:04:07related to travel are then fair game.

1:04:09Yeah. the the only thing I'm trying to

1:04:12think of something we haven't thought

1:04:13of. So there ought to be a way that you

1:04:16know you had this list of thing that's

1:04:18only accepted. However, you didn't

1:04:19include this and it should have been in

1:04:21that list. So yeah,

1:04:23>> if we go before council and maybe that

1:04:25maybe has to be a unanimous vote or

1:04:27something,

1:04:27>> an exception process. Yeah.

1:04:29>> Some some way to

1:04:31>> be something we haven't thought of. And

1:04:33I don't know what that something might

1:04:34be.

1:04:35>> And but it should be very rare.

1:04:37>> Oh, a simple vote probably. Mhm.

1:04:40>> Yeah. We don't want to over complicate

1:04:42things.

1:04:42>> Bring it up at a work session in a

1:04:43simple vote to approve,

1:04:45>> right?

1:04:47>> I don't think a unanimous vote is

1:04:49necessary, though. I mean, I'm

1:04:50irritating.

1:04:50>> I'm just throwing ideas out there.

1:04:51>> At any given time, people are going to

1:04:53say no to wherever I want just because

1:04:54I'm annoying.

1:04:56>> Yeah. [laughter]

1:04:58>> Sorry. I'm I'm getting punchy.

1:05:02>> All right. [snorts] Where are we going?

1:05:04I love the brainstorming.

1:05:06>> Yeah. I mean in the travel/trainingvents

1:05:10meals category I think that's that

1:05:13covered all the things that I've thought

1:05:15of without doing our research.

1:05:18>> Okay.

1:05:22Um

1:05:38local versus out of town travel too I

1:05:41think needs to be

1:05:44>> defined

1:05:45>> Mhm.

1:06:05You know what?

1:06:07I guess the out of town would require an

1:06:10overnight stay. Is that what you would

1:06:11call out of town?

1:06:12>> Yeah. Well, and

1:06:13>> what if I drove to Charlotte for a 10

1:06:16a.m. meeting and then come back?

1:06:19>> Yeah. Or Lisa, are there staff def, you

1:06:21know, if we rely on some staff policies

1:06:25to guide us here? Are there definitions

1:06:30of out of town? At what I'm putting you

1:06:33on the spot again, like at what point do

1:06:35the prediums kick in?

1:06:37>> Is that is that determined by

1:06:39>> for overnight traffic?

1:06:40>> So So it's overnight but not uh a radius

1:06:44of distance.

1:06:45>> We'll have to check and see written.

1:06:47Yeah, I can't remember.

1:06:48>> Okay. to meet the spirit, sorry, to

1:06:51introduce like to meet the spirit of

1:06:53what the state auditor recommended um

1:06:56saying the council should enact a policy

1:06:57related to meal expenses during council

1:06:59travel.

1:07:00>> I think to meet the spirit of what's

1:07:02intended there, particularly from

1:07:04hearing what the auditor had to say

1:07:06about that

1:07:07>> is a policy that is very succinct in

1:07:10saying and here's how you should show

1:07:14everybody what you spent. like it it

1:07:16needs to be

1:07:20>> public knowledge.

1:07:21>> It needs to be attached to the agenda

1:07:23and the consent agenda or something like

1:07:25council member Carissa Johnson uh

1:07:28requested reimbursement for

1:07:31>> sure

1:07:32>> a day in Charlotte. Her expenses were

1:07:34$132 and whatever.

1:07:36>> I just looking to like are we creating

1:07:38tons of more work for you guys? But

1:07:40>> no, we put it all in emails so it would

1:07:42be easy to

1:07:44>> grab up those emails. You know,

1:07:46>> that should be public knowledge. And

1:07:47again, if you can't defend it, you

1:07:48shouldn't be spending it,

1:07:50>> right? Are you sure that's not

1:07:52>> Yeah. I mean, for the amount that you

1:07:54all do, it's not um as much.

1:07:58you know, looking to the future if you

1:07:59do more or less or something.

1:08:01>> I think there is a way we could say that

1:08:03because um we're sending these emails so

1:08:06that they are documented and it is there

1:08:09for you to look back on and refer to and

1:08:11to know when you agree to something that

1:08:14that is what you're spending or asking

1:08:15us to spend on your behalf. And so we

1:08:17could easily capture those emails and

1:08:19even put them together. We could just do

1:08:21a common form, a word doc that says

1:08:24expense, date, total of the receipt,

1:08:26amount of the receipt that's been

1:08:28reimbursed, receipts attached, you know,

1:08:31something as as simple as that.

1:08:33>> And I mean, we're sorry, Jenny, we're

1:08:35getting ahead of ourselves here because

1:08:37we haven't determined a policy yet, but

1:08:39you know, we've thrown out some

1:08:40hypotheticals. in the hypothetical

1:08:42policy where we've come to one another

1:08:44in an open meeting and said, "I'm doing

1:08:48an event in Charlotte and we've voted

1:08:51and said yes, council member Cohen

1:08:52Johnson, please do that event." Then

1:08:54when you submit reimbursements for that

1:08:56travel, it could reference back

1:08:59reimbursement in the amount of X for

1:09:01travel as approved at work session on

1:09:04date and you know so it could correspond

1:09:07to know that that was approved and now

1:09:10these are the expenses

1:09:12or maybe that's not a function of the

1:09:15consent agenda. Maybe that's just a

1:09:18function of that being somewhere that's

1:09:20can first of all if I come back and I'm

1:09:22asking for the reimbursement. I would

1:09:24email I'm assuming probably Jenny and or

1:09:28somebody in budget or finance like

1:09:30whoever I don't know what that process

1:09:32might be but copy my council colleagues

1:09:34on it

1:09:35>> and then it doesn't necessarily have to

1:09:37be on the public agenda adding that's

1:09:41just that is going to be work

1:09:43>> that's going to crowd up

1:09:44>> and it's going to that's the other thing

1:09:45it's going to that agenda is already

1:09:46kind of hard to get through for for

1:09:48residents. I like that idea. Just have

1:09:50it where somebody can go see it.

1:09:52>> And if any citizen, they're going to ask

1:09:54for if any citizen asks for travel

1:09:57expenses for council over the last six

1:10:00months and they see it, they know that

1:10:02every council member saw that expense

1:10:04and either was okay with it or wasn't.

1:10:06So there there's just a lot of

1:10:07visibility there without

1:10:11>> we would just have it as an attachment.

1:10:12So just thinking in if you're thinking

1:10:14about the length of the consent, we

1:10:15would just have one staff report that

1:10:17attached these emails. I would be

1:10:19cautious about a form and maybe just

1:10:21call out um what you want that email to

1:10:24say instead of saying fill out this

1:10:26form.

1:10:27>> Yeah. Yeah. Good point.

1:10:29>> Because then it will get a lot of

1:10:30requests about where that form is.

1:10:32>> So just the policy calling it out.

1:10:35>> Consent maybe is more straightforward

1:10:38>> and you could always start there and

1:10:40then move away from it. If it turns out

1:10:42to be a lot, we would definitely let you

1:10:44know of our workload and say

1:10:46>> this is a lot. But it is very easy for

1:10:49us just to PDF and email and attach it

1:10:51to this

1:10:51>> like a council expenses link and you

1:10:54just go there. Okay.

1:10:55>> And that's and that um staff report

1:10:57could be a template. So we don't have to

1:10:59change actually like the

1:11:01>> the um body of the staff report to say

1:11:03but it could say you know see

1:11:05attachments for what was received this

1:11:07month.

1:11:09>> Okay, that makes sense. I think it would

1:11:11be it wouldn't be a

1:11:13probably some like a monthly thing or

1:11:14something

1:11:15>> or even it yeah it could be a work

1:11:17session agenda too which tend to be less

1:11:20crowded.

1:11:21>> So it would be more obvious if if a

1:11:23resident is going and looking for that

1:11:25information. I think that might make

1:11:26sense.

1:11:27>> Yeah. And so I would suggest thinking

1:11:29about the things you want

1:11:30>> to see and be made public at a high

1:11:33level

1:11:34>> and then let Jenny figure out how to do

1:11:35it.

1:11:36>> That's fair. Yes.

1:11:38>> Yeah. Like I said, I I think we could

1:11:41definitely be guilty of thinking of some

1:11:43really elegant solutions that are uh

1:11:46really difficult to implement [laughter]

1:11:47on the staff side.

1:11:48>> So, well said.

1:11:49>> Good advice, Lisa.

1:11:51>> Appreciate that.

1:11:53>> We can always try it out one, you know,

1:11:55a couple times and obviously revisit it

1:11:56as well.

1:11:57>> That being said, you have met our other

1:11:59council colleagues, right? If we don't

1:12:01get in the weeds a little bit,

1:12:03>> they will.

1:12:03>> They're just going to go running down

1:12:05that hallway. So we might as well

1:12:08consider at least broadly what we intend

1:12:11>> these out a little bit.

1:12:12>> Yeah. [laughter]

1:12:13>> Yeah.

1:12:14>> This is something I mean you could bring

1:12:16back to another work session. We could

1:12:17start very soon just as well without a

1:12:20policy in place. Just maybe a practice

1:12:22you're telling us to do.

1:12:25>> Say that another way.

1:12:26>> Um so this board can't make decisions of

1:12:28what staff does. Can ask questions from

1:12:30staff but can't give us direction how to

1:12:32operate. If you talked at your work

1:12:34session about your work and reported it

1:12:36out, we could, you know,

1:12:38>> we could Yeah.

1:12:39>> You could just say without adopting a

1:12:41policy yet or a cap, you could just say

1:12:42as a FYI, we'd like this on the consent

1:12:45agenda once a month if any money is

1:12:47spent on council's behalf for travel,

1:12:49training, bills, rein.

1:12:50>> That's a good point that we can start

1:12:52putting some of these things into

1:12:53practice

1:12:54>> without the policy being completely

1:12:56>> before we codify the the policy. And

1:12:58that could even be a little trial run to

1:13:00see like, well, how is that working?

1:13:01Mhm.

1:13:02>> And then you could set your car card cap

1:13:05like based upon what you see for a

1:13:06couple months.

1:13:08>> It it would take a while though because

1:13:10nobody's traveling doing anything or

1:13:11spending anybody at all ever. No.

1:13:13>> So we could try that out sometime next

1:13:16summer maybe.

1:13:16>> Yes.

1:13:17>> Yeah.

1:13:18>> Yeah. This is why I would not anticipate

1:13:20uh Jenny's staff being inundated right

1:13:23now.

1:13:23>> Yeah. I think Yeah. While the workload

1:13:25is less of council traveling, it might

1:13:27be a good time for us just to try it out

1:13:29many times. if you wanted to talk to the

1:13:31rest of the council about that.

1:13:32>> Good point. Very good point. That's our

1:13:35first recommendation.

1:13:36>> Yeah.

1:13:37>> Well, and I guess too I we are getting

1:13:40in the weeds now. Um but I mean in my

1:13:43several months now on council, I haven't

1:13:45been reimbursed for anything because of

1:13:48anything I felt was related to the

1:13:52council work I've had the town spend for

1:13:55me. So the uh school of government

1:13:58trainings, some conferences I've

1:14:01attended. Um so in that scenario

1:14:05where I haven't submitted receipts for

1:14:08reimbursement,

1:14:10I suppose what that would have been

1:14:13captured in our original conversation of

1:14:16your bucket

1:14:16>> of just spending from my bucket. And so

1:14:19uh you're talking about only having to

1:14:21capture cash reimbursements.

1:14:24>> Yeah.

1:14:24>> Yeah. Well, no, but no, definitely both

1:14:27need to be captured in my

1:14:28>> Right. Right. No, I just mean through

1:14:29the emails being on the consent agenda

1:14:32or you would want that

1:14:34>> I intended, you know, whether the town

1:14:37paid for it or you were reimbursed that

1:14:39should be probably captured. Whatever

1:14:41you're spending down on this, that's why

1:14:44I was saying,

1:14:44>> okay, yeah, that makes sense.

1:14:45>> What the town pays for that that bucket.

1:14:48Um,

1:14:50>> don't think it matters whether it's P

1:14:52card or if it was my credit card. If I

1:14:54get reimbursed, it's a half a dozen one

1:14:56next another.

1:14:57>> Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

1:14:58>> And that also tracks progress to your

1:15:00cap, your spending cap, right?

1:15:02>> Yeah. You can see that in real time.

1:15:04>> Yeah.

1:15:04>> Yeah.

1:15:06>> Yeah, that makes sense.

1:15:10>> Okay.

1:15:12>> Yeah. Okay. Well, keep going.

1:15:14>> What next?

1:15:15>> We have one recommendation.

1:15:17[laughter]

1:15:18A lot of brainstorming.

1:15:21>> Well, the bucket. I think that's the

1:15:22other thing. Can we go to

1:15:25So

1:15:28someone leaves here tonight, drafts up

1:15:31sort of a just a rough draft of this re

1:15:35this what the town will pay for policy.

1:15:37Come up with a more elegant thing for

1:15:39that later.

1:15:39>> No, I like it. Rolls off the tongue.

1:15:41>> We could

1:15:43before we were like, "Okay, here's the

1:15:45final policy. Excuse me. We want to

1:15:48recommend." We could bring it to a work

1:15:51session for feedback maybe or even I

1:15:53guess we can't do it three by four. So

1:15:55>> or I would my thinking would be

1:16:00and we'll have to decide you know I

1:16:01don't know mayor if we want to go next

1:16:03you know if the next category is

1:16:04compensation or how how far we're going

1:16:07to get tonight but then decide if

1:16:11we're going to divvy that up amongst

1:16:13ourselves. I suppose that makes more

1:16:16sense than um you know uh getting too

1:16:20redundant with our efforts. I don't

1:16:21imagine we all want to go home and all

1:16:24draft a travel and training policy and

1:16:26all look at best practices. I mean I

1:16:29imagine it would make more sense for

1:16:31each one of us to claim something

1:16:32distinct. Um but I would think we would

1:16:35come back amongst ourselves to refine it

1:16:39before taking it then to counsel out a

1:16:41work.

1:16:42>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I don't mean

1:16:43immediately bring it to them, but try to

1:16:45do it

1:16:47>> get it to 50%. Yeah.

1:16:49>> As I get some feedback just in case

1:16:50we're going completely down the wrong

1:16:52path.

1:16:52>> Yeah. Because that would make sense to

1:16:53me, you know, drafting

1:16:57drafting a policy based on what we

1:16:59talked about, right? Really rough

1:17:01because we're not making the decisions.

1:17:03We're taking this back to all of our

1:17:04colleagues anyway. I'm pairing that with

1:17:09sort of what we talked about with the

1:17:10best practices of and you know and

1:17:12here's how two or three peer communities

1:17:15do this.

1:17:17>> Yes.

1:17:18>> And it could look like this.

1:17:19>> Yes.

1:17:20>> Yeah. That makes sense to me.

1:17:21>> Does that seem right to you, Harold?

1:17:23>> I want to make sure I understood. So, we

1:17:26do the research and we're bringing it to

1:17:28a work session, not to here.

1:17:30>> I think

1:17:32first back to here.

1:17:33>> Okay.

1:17:33>> Yeah. And then when we word smith it and

1:17:37and make sure it captured what we

1:17:39intended, right? The spirit of what

1:17:40we're seeing.

1:17:41>> Um, make sure it passes like Lisa, you

1:17:45can give a snip test.

1:17:47>> Yeah.

1:17:48>> Feedback, right?

1:17:49>> If you'd like.

1:17:50>> We would probably like and Jenny, you'll

1:17:53tell us if it's a nightmare.

1:17:54>> Right.

1:17:56>> Thank you. And you know, if we came back

1:17:58with three examples, real life examples

1:18:00from some peer communities and we in

1:18:03here decided, well, one of them really

1:18:05doesn't even fit the mold, you know, so

1:18:07we can do a little more vetting amongst

1:18:09ourselves so that we're bringing

1:18:11>> the right recommendations to the rest of

1:18:13our colleagues.

1:18:16>> Yeah.

1:18:16>> And we're talking about options still,

1:18:17right?

1:18:18>> Options. Yeah.

1:18:20>> And they're probably all watching this

1:18:21right now, so they'll be very familiar.

1:18:24>> Yes. Um, so I don't think we'll have to

1:18:25explain every last bit.

1:18:29>> Okay.

1:18:30>> So, we want to go there now.

1:18:35>> Start divvying up research. Sure.

1:18:39>> Well, let me ask because I think we

1:18:41could do it two ways. Well, in my mind,

1:18:44it would make sense for the same person

1:18:47as opposed to, for example, divying up

1:18:49different aspects of travel and

1:18:51training. I think it would make sense

1:18:53for one person to have the largest

1:18:55umbrella because there's going to be so

1:18:56much overlap.

1:18:57>> Um, you know, so for me it would make

1:19:00sense if somebody took one big umbrella

1:19:02like travel and training and then

1:19:05compensation could be a different

1:19:07umbrella. Um, because I think if we

1:19:09said, you know, you look up out of town

1:19:13travel and perdms and I'll look up

1:19:16conferences, we're going to wind up

1:19:18repeating so much effort.

1:19:22if that makes sense to you.

1:19:23>> Yeah.

1:19:25>> All right. So, topics

1:19:28to research,

1:19:30travel and training,

1:19:33you need volunteers.

1:19:36I'm happy to do it, but it sounds like

1:19:37you already went down the rabbit hole a

1:19:38little bit.

1:19:39>> I'm happy to do it, too, but I did on

1:19:40compensation and other ones, too. So, I

1:19:43don't know. I [laughter] feel I I feel

1:19:46like you might have more experience here

1:19:48as well to to think through some of it.

1:19:51>> Not really, but I'm quite happy to.

1:19:53>> I mean,

1:19:55>> you know what, Mayor, how about we see

1:19:56how many more we get to tonight and then

1:19:58we divvy it up. You want to do that?

1:20:00>> Maybe maybe the clearest person to

1:20:02tackle which will emerge in the course

1:20:05of our conversation.

1:20:05>> Okay. I mean, I do have also access to

1:20:08five different AI LLM, so you know,

1:20:10there's that. I'm just lousy with with

1:20:12AI over here. But the [clears throat]

1:20:15problem is I have to use it all day long

1:20:16and I I've now grown to hate it with a

1:20:18burning passion of a thousand sons. So

1:20:21I'll go old school and Google it and

1:20:24start making phone calls. So it's going

1:20:25to take me just a minute.

1:20:27>> Yeah.

1:20:28>> In this day and age of AI, it'll be

1:20:31little analog. Not totally, though. No,

1:20:34I feel once you vet all the

1:20:36hallucinations, you've done twice the

1:20:38work anyway, so might as well have just

1:20:39done your own primary [laughter]

1:20:40research.

1:20:42>> That's exactly right.

1:20:45>> All right, what are we tackling next if

1:20:48we're not readying?

1:20:54>> These really overlap a lot more than I

1:20:57thought they did when I first read them.

1:21:00and that we we've we've more or less

1:21:02just covered the OSA recommendations. I

1:21:06feel like

1:21:06>> Mhm.

1:21:07>> Um

1:21:08the one I feel most strongly about

1:21:13um

1:21:14personally

1:21:20is the the

1:21:23council pay and such, but

1:21:27mostly because

1:21:30it really should be the simplest to

1:21:31solve. I don't feel like that one needs

1:21:35to be hyper complex.

1:21:37>> Yeah. Um you know I suppose

1:21:41you know so for me the next category is

1:21:43compensation which is again another

1:21:45broad [clears throat] category you know

1:21:47salary allowances and benefits to me um

1:21:50I mean benefits might be a separate

1:21:52conversation because again Lisa I don't

1:21:54think benefits technically by fit the

1:21:56statutory definition of compensation. So

1:21:59the statutory definition will be salary

1:22:02and allowances to me very related to

1:22:05that is benefits as well. Um but I think

1:22:10we're thinking the same of u how

1:22:13important is for us to talk about the

1:22:16salary and the allowances. Um I mean

1:22:20should we talk about our colleagues

1:22:24suggestion about how to go about

1:22:27>> that's say that's probably a smart idea.

1:22:30>> Sure.

1:22:32>> That should be one option

1:22:35>> we should consider

1:22:37several

1:22:39recommendations.

1:22:44>> And did we hand out

1:22:48Okay. Want to make sure everybody has a

1:22:50copy of what we're talking about.

1:22:56We might want to read aloud some for

1:22:58some watching. But

1:23:00>> yeah, I'm I'm happy to. This is uh Lori

1:23:02Bush, the other at large council member

1:23:05um I think you know partially as part of

1:23:08her studies um pursuing her masters in

1:23:12public policy and administration

1:23:15did a a sort of summary and it's some

1:23:17slides that recommends that we divorce

1:23:21the

1:23:23dollar figure amount that we're you know

1:23:25that we're compensated and the sort of

1:23:28process and controls that we divorce the

1:23:31and have an independent commission

1:23:34determine what our pay is. I think that

1:23:37does that is that the spirit of really

1:23:38what it was. Um

1:23:41not because we don't have the ability

1:23:44and the right to determine our own

1:23:46compensation, but just because we can,

1:23:49maybe we shouldn't.

1:23:50>> Um I think was sort of the spirit

1:23:53>> of what she she proposed. And there's

1:23:56there's a fair amount of information

1:23:57here. I've got the wrong glasses.

1:24:00So

1:24:02these ones are bif focals, trifocals or

1:24:05something. But um was there any

1:24:09big takeaways from what you guys read

1:24:11that you think I'm I'm not summing up

1:24:14well because there's a lot of

1:24:16information.

1:24:16>> Citizen committee.

1:24:19>> Um

1:24:21the first thing I thought of is okay,

1:24:23how do you create the committee?

1:24:26>> How does that not be political? you

1:24:29know, that's one thing I worry about.

1:24:32And then you're going to have to give

1:24:33them guidelines. You know,

1:24:35>> make it fair. Don't come back and, hey,

1:24:37we're going to double your salary.

1:24:38That's not a good optic.

1:24:40>> Yeah.

1:24:40>> You know, so we've got to give them

1:24:42guidelines.

1:24:44>> Um, and then how prescriptive are we

1:24:46being if we give them guidelines, you

1:24:48know, or ask them to come up with

1:24:49several options, you know. Um,

1:24:53>> but those are the two things that

1:24:55concern me

1:24:57>> was when you talk about citizen

1:24:59committees because citizen committees

1:25:01historically have almost always been

1:25:03political in one way or another.

1:25:06>> Well,

1:25:06>> and so we're adding politics to

1:25:09>> Yeah.

1:25:09>> our pay scale, which is what we tried to

1:25:11get rid of years ago.

1:25:13>> Yeah. I wonder if there is another

1:25:17mechanism that meets the spirit of

1:25:20resident input that is not necessarily

1:25:23the commission format. Um, and I don't

1:25:26know what that would be, but one idea,

1:25:29you know, in looking at the commission

1:25:32idea, a couple of things that that

1:25:35struck me. One is the uh cities Raleigh

1:25:40and Charlotte. Um and I believe

1:25:42Charlotte uh issued their final report

1:25:44in 2020 and Raleigh in 2021.

1:25:49Uh their commissions were convened to do

1:25:54a broader analysis of council that it

1:25:57was not just their compensation. They

1:26:00were considering changing term limits of

1:26:03their um what uh election cycle they ran

1:26:06in. So it was a more comprehensive

1:26:08review of council. Um, which is not to

1:26:12say that that's then not relevant to our

1:26:14conversation because there could be pros

1:26:15or cons. If if we convened a commission

1:26:18that had a a much narrower uh scope,

1:26:21perhaps their work could be done more

1:26:23quickly, but just

1:26:24>> or it could be shorter term, long-term.

1:26:26>> Yes. Um, but just pointing out that

1:26:29those commissions had a much broader

1:26:31scope. So, so, uh, council compensation

1:26:35was just one part of looking at their,

1:26:38um, council structure.

1:26:40uh altogether.

1:26:42Um

1:26:44and I had a second point that now has

1:26:46escaped me. No, no, no, no, no. Um

1:26:50it'll come to me. It'll come to me,

1:26:51mayor. Um but so that that was that was

1:26:54one thing that I noted. Um no, I'm going

1:26:57to have to wait for it to come back.

1:27:05The last commission we created was the

1:27:08150. Correct.

1:27:10>> Yes. The one only one I can remember. I

1:27:12mean we did some

1:27:15human resource that was a task force.

1:27:19>> The aging issues.

1:27:22>> Yeah. I mean, so we've done all these

1:27:24task force, but a real commission

1:27:27>> define the difference between a

1:27:29commission and a task force and a

1:27:32>> so um carrying 150 was actually a task

1:27:35force as well. And a task force usually

1:27:39by council gives it a limited scope and

1:27:42time frame. So they tell like when your

1:27:44work will be done, what you expect to

1:27:46get out of it. Um they start and finish.

1:27:49>> Okay? Whereas a commission, board and

1:27:51committee, we treat those the same.

1:27:52They're usually standing

1:27:55um boards, committees, commissions

1:27:57because we have right now the historic

1:27:59preservation commission. So you can see

1:28:00how the words are interchangeable

1:28:03between commission committee.

1:28:04>> Yeah.

1:28:05>> And um

1:28:06>> is a commission

1:28:08quasi judicial?

1:28:11>> What what where does the quasi judicial

1:28:14come in?

1:28:15>> That only comes in based upon the case

1:28:17they're looking at.

1:28:19And so like our zoning board of

1:28:21adjustment, their items are quasi

1:28:23judicial because that is the requirement

1:28:25by the statutes for the case, but they

1:28:28also talk about their work plan. So they

1:28:31do things that aren't.

1:28:33>> But the historic preservation commission

1:28:35does

1:28:37judicial votes, right?

1:28:38>> It's only for certificates of

1:28:40appropriateness. And again, that's

1:28:41required by state law.

1:28:42>> Okay.

1:28:43>> So this if they're voting on this

1:28:45specific type of thing,

1:28:46>> what you're talking about would not

1:28:47trigger that. not trigger that. It's not

1:28:48that

1:28:49>> I recalled my lost train of thought.

1:28:51[laughter]

1:28:51>> Excellent. Uh what I was going to say

1:28:54is, you know, in looking at um as as

1:28:58best I could tell, most municipalities

1:29:01don't go this route. Um again, our

1:29:04statutory authority says council may set

1:29:07their own compensation and it looks like

1:29:09most of our peer communities do exercise

1:29:12that authority and they pass it through

1:29:14their budget ordinance. Um, but one

1:29:18question I had for staff is, uh, we just

1:29:23passed in this fiscal year budget our

1:29:26pay study or, um,

1:29:30not in Wake County, but elsewhere. I was

1:29:33able because I was like, wait a minute,

1:29:35we have a pay study coming up. Has any

1:29:38elected body used their pay study to

1:29:41also look at their pay? And the answer

1:29:44nationwide seems to be yes. I can't

1:29:46remember the communities now, you know,

1:29:48to get to that impartiality that I think

1:29:51Mayor Prom Bush was looking for. Um, I

1:29:54was wondering if that was an avenue that

1:29:56we could explore.

1:29:57>> She included in her in her uh

1:29:59information that there are some that use

1:30:01benchmarking, consultants, consultant

1:30:04work, and benchmarking. Wilmington being

1:30:07one of the ones that went that route

1:30:09>> because we just we've already I I don't

1:30:11know if that would significantly expand

1:30:14the scope of what we've already budgeted

1:30:16to do, but we have budgeted for that

1:30:19work.

1:30:20>> That's true.

1:30:20>> We've posted um recently, past few days,

1:30:23the RFP or consultants for that.

1:30:25>> You can find that on our RFP website.

1:30:30[laughter]

1:30:30I don't know if it includes council in

1:30:32its scope right now. Okay. But it's and

1:30:34I don't know if that would be included

1:30:36in the current budget, but it's

1:30:37something staff could look at

1:30:39>> potentially adding and but needing to

1:30:41find the funds that would increase the

1:30:43cost.

1:30:44>> And it seems like that might go beyond

1:30:47the next decision point for the next

1:30:50budget cycle, too. So that might be a

1:30:52long time.

1:30:53>> I think and Russ can give more

1:30:54information, but I think the plan is to

1:30:56have the study completed so that

1:30:58potentially things could roll into the

1:31:00next budget level. That would be good.

1:31:03>> Two five stars, I say. Yeah.

1:31:04>> Or maybe the school of government could

1:31:06chime in or

1:31:08>> so I I looked I was hoping that they

1:31:10were going to have some existing like

1:31:13really great resource there. If they do,

1:31:16I wasn't able in a fairly cursory search

1:31:18to find it on their website. It looks

1:31:20like they publish that for our county

1:31:23counterparts. So, every year they

1:31:26publish a county report of um county

1:31:30salaries, including the elected county

1:31:33commissioners. And they had some

1:31:35interesting I suppose is subjective, but

1:31:37they I thought they had some interesting

1:31:39uh spreadsheets publicly available that

1:31:41also show what benefits the county

1:31:44elected officials are offered. If it's

1:31:47health, if it's dental, um who pays

1:31:49premiums. Um so, at the county level,

1:31:52they have that. um if they have that

1:31:54same clearing house of information for

1:31:56municipalities. I couldn't find it

1:31:58publicly posted um or any resources. I

1:32:02was I was really hoping that school of

1:32:03government I was just going to search

1:32:05that up and this is how you set elected

1:32:08body compensation if that resource

1:32:10exists. I wasn't able to uncover it just

1:32:12yet.

1:32:14>> Maybe the league does.

1:32:15>> Yeah. Or you know maybe one of their

1:32:18wonderful professors could

1:32:19>> but that be one of my homework. Yeah. I

1:32:21can take that as homework. Reach out to

1:32:25>> see if I can.

1:32:25>> So, are you gonna I'm broadly

1:32:28>> I'm not drafting a a a draft ordinance.

1:32:31I'm gonna find

1:32:34North Carolina

1:32:37municipal

1:32:40elected salaries. So I will say if you

1:32:43go into both again the Charlotte report

1:32:45is now coming up on six years ago and

1:32:48the Raleigh report is almost five years

1:32:50ago. Their appendices have some

1:32:53wonderful tables in there. Um now

1:32:56Raleigh and Charlotte's peer communities

1:32:57are not precisely Car's peer communities

1:33:00but Carrie does appear in both of them.

1:33:03Um uh and Charlotte really took a deep

1:33:06dive on looking at nationwide analoges

1:33:10where Raleigh was a little more focused

1:33:13on the state.

1:33:15>> Yeah,

1:33:15>> but it it at least gives you a it's a

1:33:18very interesting snapshot of at that

1:33:20time where Kerry was then relative um to

1:33:25some other communities.

1:33:26>> Yeah. And and you make a good point. I

1:33:28would like to hear what y'all think

1:33:29about this. I would not think it makes

1:33:32sense for us to compare or to consider

1:33:35what's done outside of the out of North

1:33:37Carolina because of the dissimilarities

1:33:39that are introduced.

1:33:40>> Right.

1:33:41>> Yeah. I did some Google searching and

1:33:44that doesn't mean it's accurate at all.

1:33:46>> They're not even all they're some of

1:33:48them are full-time.

1:33:49>> Yeah.

1:33:49>> So, I did of the top 10 populated

1:33:52municipalities in North Carolina and

1:33:54they went right in order as far as uh

1:33:57how much they get. Charlotte got the

1:33:59most, Raleigh got the second, and so on

1:34:01and so on, and we fit right in the

1:34:02middle

1:34:02>> paired with population.

1:34:03>> Wilmington's below us, Fateville's above

1:34:05us, and we're right between them

1:34:08>> for total compensation.

1:34:09>> Yeah.

1:34:10>> But again, that means nothing

1:34:13>> just to get an idea where we were.

1:34:16>> Is that Did you get that information

1:34:18before? I just Googled it.

1:34:19>> Probably raised their pay and

1:34:22>> who knows? I mean,

1:34:24>> just it was just a Google search. It's

1:34:27not accurate. Uh,

1:34:30>> and all that information could be false.

1:34:32I mean, stuff they said the mayor of

1:34:35Kerry makes around 30,000 up to 60,000.

1:34:38I'm like, I wish. That's definitely not

1:34:40true.

1:34:41>> It's like every job I ever applied for

1:34:42on Indeed.

1:34:44>> Yeah. The pay range, it's got a $100,000

1:34:46[clears throat] range.

1:34:48>> Yeah. What was interesting

1:34:52was, and it sounds like you uncovered

1:34:54the same data, mayor, is it's in the

1:34:58Raleigh appendices again because they

1:35:00were more focused on comparing North

1:35:02Carolina municipalities.

1:35:05>> Um,

1:35:07however, this was determined at the

1:35:09time, our base salary versus our car

1:35:13allowance. that uh our car allowance is

1:35:17the highest in the table but our base

1:35:20salary is the lowest and so that

1:35:23combined our total compensation was

1:35:25right in line with our peer communities.

1:35:28So our total compensation does not seem

1:35:30to be an anomaly. It's just how we've

1:35:34divided our compensation between salary

1:35:37and allowances. Um, and it seems at some

1:35:41point, again, this gets back to my

1:35:42earlier point about how much we have to

1:35:44relitigate decisions in the past because

1:35:46it doesn't really matter how we got here

1:35:48because we're moving on from this point

1:35:50forward, but it is curious

1:35:53>> how we determined that divide between

1:35:57>> and I don't think anybody recalls

1:35:58exactly how they got there. Is that old?

1:36:00>> Well, and and and other things too, like

1:36:04>> if they are getting a reimbursement or a

1:36:06stipen in other communities, are they

1:36:09taxed on it the way we are?

1:36:10>> So that's that's, you know, our I

1:36:13mentioned to Harold earlier, our car

1:36:15stipen is taxed. It's all taxed.

1:36:17>> We don't get anywhere near that amount

1:36:18of money.

1:36:19>> I know this job makes my

1:36:21>> I owed so many taxes. I have like $7,000

1:36:24in taxes my first year on council

1:36:27because they were taxing this job as if

1:36:29it was my only job

1:36:31>> and it should have been taxed at my

1:36:33>> higher pay rate, you know, on top of my

1:36:35other salary and I owed a bunch of

1:36:37money.

1:36:38>> Yeah.

1:36:39>> Um so

1:36:40>> now I have them take out a lot of extra

1:36:42money out of every check to make sure

1:36:44that I'm not getting fined because I was

1:36:46also fined for not paying enough taxes

1:36:49as the as the year went on. Mhm.

1:36:51>> That was no fault of our payroll folks.

1:36:53It's just how it works when you have two

1:36:55jobs.

1:36:55>> Yeah.

1:36:56>> Um but is it common? I I've asked other

1:36:58people. I'm like, "Do they tax your

1:37:01>> like all of their things like that?"

1:37:03Because it it just seems strange to me

1:37:06>> to be

1:37:08managed that way. So I I often wondered

1:37:11if our car stipened was inflated to

1:37:15account for the you know 15% 20% that's

1:37:20going out the door taxes.

1:37:21>> I can't remember a lot way back when but

1:37:24I remember we went 10 years without any

1:37:26increase.

1:37:26>> Right.

1:37:27>> And to get around and then there was

1:37:29some reluctant to do any increase at

1:37:32all.

1:37:32>> Yeah. And I think that was one of the

1:37:34ways to get around it or not get around

1:37:37it but to compensate.

1:37:39>> Yeah.

1:37:40>> For the lack of not increasing the base

1:37:43salary.

1:37:44>> Yeah. You know, we've heard a lot too

1:37:47about reimbursements versus allowances.

1:37:51Um, you know, I I sure we've all heard

1:37:54from residents who have said we should

1:37:56have a a per mileage reimbursement

1:37:58instead of a fixed allowance. Um, and

1:38:01again, Lisa, you can help me with my

1:38:03reading of the statute, but I read the

1:38:07statute to say that when we're

1:38:10determining compensation, we can

1:38:11determine

1:38:13reimbursement or fixed allowance. Um,

1:38:17and so you you pick a lane, you choose a

1:38:20model, and it seems like uh just by

1:38:24judging from the uh uh data that Raleigh

1:38:27gathered, it seems like most

1:38:29municipalities opt for the fixed

1:38:31allowance. I imagine that is just much

1:38:34easier accounting than having to do.

1:38:36>> So I mean, you can see from a process

1:38:39point of view why you would want to set

1:38:42a fixed.

1:38:44>> Yeah. How much am I paying for the

1:38:46mayor?

1:38:46>> Yes,

1:38:47>> there it is.

1:38:48>> You don't have to add up all the fees

1:38:50and compensation.

1:38:52>> Yeah.

1:38:53>> But so I just I in having heard from the

1:38:56community, why isn't it a reimbursement?

1:38:59How do we land on a fixed allowance?

1:39:01Realizing that the origin of that seems

1:39:03to come from the statute. The statute

1:39:06gives municipalities the authority to

1:39:08choose one of those two models,

1:39:10reimbursement or fixed allowance. And it

1:39:12seems like we are in line with most

1:39:14communities in choosing fixed allowance.

1:39:17>> It's just

1:39:17>> it's just the amount. Yes.

1:39:19>> It's just Yeah. I Yeah.

1:39:22And if whoever is doing that duty of

1:39:26work, that should be one of the options

1:39:29we consider. It's just a fixed amount

1:39:33based on something.

1:39:34>> Yeah. uh that is in line with

1:39:38neighboring commu not neighboring but

1:39:41like communities in the state

1:39:43>> and it did appear that most communities

1:39:47do opt for an allowance as opposed to

1:39:51because I I had made the argument prior

1:39:55to doing any of this research with the

1:39:57caveat of well when we do the research

1:39:59on best practices I I retain the right

1:40:01to change my mind but I had I had a

1:40:04notion that why do we have any

1:40:05allowances at all? Let's just let's just

1:40:07have a salary because then taxpayers see

1:40:10it's not hidden in any other categories.

1:40:12How much have you paid my salary? This

1:40:14amount. Um but it seems that most

1:40:17communities don't do it that way that

1:40:20they don't have a single salary that

1:40:23they do divide it between a base salary

1:40:26and allowances. Now that's just

1:40:28convention or um you know how it's

1:40:32always been done or if there's you know

1:40:34more of a policy reason for doing it

1:40:36that way. We've also heard from

1:40:38residents that say they would prefer to

1:40:40see it differentiated so that you have

1:40:43an idea of why your total compens you

1:40:46know the the calculation behind your

1:40:47total compensation. But I did think it

1:40:50was interesting that in my mind the

1:40:52simplest notion is we'll just have a

1:40:54salary. It does not seem that most

1:40:56communities opt to do it that way. So

1:40:58perhaps there's good reason for that.

1:41:01>> Well, and in

1:41:03the other side of the coin on that, I do

1:41:06still believe a straight salary is the

1:41:09best way to go about this. Whether or

1:41:10not the majority of my colleagues agree

1:41:12with me on that, I I don't know. But

1:41:14there is also a uh for especially for

1:41:20more well-compensated electeds, there is

1:41:24the expectation that as public servants

1:41:26we be profoundly underpaid

1:41:29>> and so having an you know saying I make

1:41:32$13,000 a year.

1:41:34>> Yeah.

1:41:35>> It also that that again when you were

1:41:37just saying earlier we need to be as

1:41:39transparent as possible. It is not

1:41:42transparent to say my salary is 13,300

1:41:45but then I earn 30,000. That that is to

1:41:48me the opposite of transparent. So I

1:41:50think

1:41:51>> probably and I'm just guessing that

1:41:53often times these these this way of

1:41:56compensating

1:41:58>> is to not give people sticker shock or

1:42:02whatever or or but it's also even more

1:42:04so both public service when they're on

1:42:06staff or electeds. we are expected to

1:42:10not earn any reasonable amount of

1:42:12income. Um that's just I think that's

1:42:15the the broader perspective. No. And I

1:42:17mean because I I I still see the

1:42:21>> the simple path might

1:42:22>> the simple path and also the allowances

1:42:27to me invite the opportunity for again

1:42:31we're putting individual council members

1:42:33into kind of a gray area of having to

1:42:36make determinations for themselves.

1:42:38>> Right. And I think especially in the

1:42:41environment that we're in, there is

1:42:43perhaps some pressure to decline your

1:42:46allowances.

1:42:48>> Um, and then it creates this discrepancy

1:42:50in compensation between colleagues. Um,

1:42:55>> correct.

1:42:55>> And I think if you if you only had

1:42:58salary, now if you were in a position to

1:43:00decline all of your salary, I suppose I

1:43:03suppose that is a decision that you

1:43:04could make. Um, but I think you'd be

1:43:08less inclined to do that than on an

1:43:11individual basis decide, do I use my

1:43:14personal vehicle enough to warrant the

1:43:17allowance? Do I use my cell phone enough

1:43:21to warrant the allowance? Um,

1:43:23>> and is it appropriate that I use my

1:43:25personal computer for this purpose? I

1:43:28certainly can't use my work computer for

1:43:30this purpose. you know, what is the

1:43:32expectation if I'm receiving a cell

1:43:34phone allowance when it comes to my

1:43:36personal device and the information on

1:43:38my personal device or those kinds of

1:43:40things, too. I think there there's a

1:43:42little bit of stickiness there

1:43:44>> that that's where my source of

1:43:45discomfort is.

1:43:46>> Yeah.

1:43:46>> Um it's just too murky. I don't like

1:43:48murky.

1:43:49>> So, I mean that it is hard to argue that

1:43:50a single salary figure isn't the most

1:43:53straightforward. It's the only It's the

1:43:55only figure you need to know to know

1:43:58what your council member is paid.

1:44:00>> And I think again I think if you put it

1:44:02after the next election, if you don't

1:44:04like it, you can vote somebody to change

1:44:07whatever you want.

1:44:09>> And that's what we did last time.

1:44:11>> And it doesn't have to be permanent

1:44:12either, like we, you know,

1:44:13>> and it could be reviewed how whatever

1:44:16the period is.

1:44:17>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll have to figure

1:44:21that out first, which will be no easy

1:44:23task whichever route we decide to take

1:44:25if maybe the uh pay study does it.

1:44:29We talk about convening a a commission,

1:44:32but whenever we set that figure closely

1:44:35related to that, we'll be figuring out

1:44:37the appropriate benchmark for ongoing

1:44:40increases because we've talked about how

1:44:43the benchmark we use now of the market

1:44:47rate doesn't feel like the best

1:44:50benchmark.

1:44:51>> Right. Right. Now, we can or cannot ask

1:44:55staff to do work in these meetings. We

1:44:58kind of can't, right? We need to go to

1:45:01the rest of council. Somebody needs to

1:45:02make a motion. And

1:45:05>> no, well, not sure what you're asking.

1:45:07>> Yeah.

1:45:08>> So, if we want them to look into adding

1:45:10this information to the benchmarking

1:45:12survey or something like that, can we

1:45:15instruct in this committee? Can we

1:45:16instruct staff to go? We can't. Right.

1:45:19>> Has to be a council direction. I would

1:45:21>> benchmark survey. The UNCC school

1:45:22government one, they choose the topics.

1:45:24>> Yes. Oh, I was I meant our salary bench

1:45:28the pay start sorry the pay study

1:45:30>> and you would need to go to the full

1:45:32council and then direct from the full

1:45:34council to

1:45:35>> if you would like us to bring you

1:45:37information on something [clears throat]

1:45:40>> I've been doing tonight that's fine just

1:45:42ask us what you know what information

1:45:43you need but in terms of directing

1:45:47decisions work things like that that

1:45:50would be

1:45:52>> Mayor I feel like I've talked a lot and

1:45:54haven't heard as much of your thoughts.

1:45:55Did you uh

1:45:57>> what are your thoughts on compensation?

1:45:59Because I I'm sure all of us have

1:46:01individually had thoughts and we haven't

1:46:03had a venue to share it with one

1:46:04another.

1:46:06>> Uh my thoughts are one, make it as

1:46:08simple as possible and two, don't make a

1:46:11policy that it excludes a certain

1:46:14individual from holding office.

1:46:16>> Yeah.

1:46:16>> We have a council member, they gave up

1:46:18half their job to do this

1:46:20>> and if you [clears throat] cut their

1:46:21salary, now they're in trouble.

1:46:23>> Yes. Agreed. Uh, and that should never

1:46:25happen. If you want to serve, it

1:46:26shouldn't matter how much money you

1:46:28make, you should be able to serve. And

1:46:30that's something that concerns me. Uh,

1:46:33I'm fortunate not to be in that

1:46:35position. I'm retired, so it's not a big

1:46:38deal to me as it would be in others.

1:46:41>> So th those are kind of my biggest

1:46:43concerns. One, make it as simple as

1:46:45possible, and two, don't hurt anybody's

1:46:48chances to be in public office if they

1:46:50want to be there.

1:46:52Agreed.

1:46:56>> One of the other things in the propo the

1:46:59proposal shared

1:47:01um by council member Bush that jumped

1:47:05out at me was having a dedicated email

1:47:08added to the kerryc.gov of list to give

1:47:12us direct feedback based off of what

1:47:14we're discussing the scope of our work

1:47:15and what we're discussing and ideas um

1:47:19that were floating which I I quite liked

1:47:22um whether it's

1:47:25committeec.gov

1:47:27or something like that.

1:47:28>> They can always email us directly. But

1:47:30yeah, that's fine with me. Doesn't

1:47:33matter. Uh I I can almost tell you what

1:47:36kind of email I'll get based on history.

1:47:39>> Yeah. Yeah.

1:47:41>> Um so,

1:47:42>> but there's, you know, I've spoken to

1:47:44people who have very unique skill sets.

1:47:47Like there are people that have skill

1:47:49sets in these things. There are people

1:47:50that have strong opinions. like for I

1:47:54shared my intention to pursue or to

1:47:58discuss um just flattening our salary

1:48:01and dispensing with

1:48:04>> confusing ways of us getting

1:48:06compensated. And one person disliked it.

1:48:09She came to

1:48:10>> I forgotten her name, but I'll remember

1:48:12in a second. She came and

1:48:13>> Barbara Yeah. and shared with all of

1:48:15council at public speaks out that she

1:48:17did not like my suggestion. and the

1:48:19other one didn't answer me and two said,

1:48:21"Oh, okay. That makes a lot of sense.

1:48:23That's a lot easier to understand."

1:48:25[clears throat]

1:48:25>> So, there's But I've got a sample of

1:48:27four people.

1:48:28>> Yeah,

1:48:29>> that's not particularly helpful. And I

1:48:30do believe people are going to be paying

1:48:32attent at least at first. This might be

1:48:34pretty boring. I don't know. But I do

1:48:36believe there's probably going to be

1:48:37people that are really interested in

1:48:39giving some feedback. Um, and that might

1:48:41also solve for the deliberation thing

1:48:44where if

1:48:46our council colleagues have pieces of

1:48:48information they really want us to have

1:48:49ahead of these discussions,

1:48:51>> long as it goes in the document where

1:48:53everybody can see it,

1:48:54>> they could send it here. That eliminates

1:48:56that deliberation piece. It it's added

1:48:58to the agenda and then everybody sees it

1:49:00all

1:49:03>> like a separate email um account.

1:49:05>> Yeah. or just a forward off to you3.

1:49:10>> If someone like you know like if someone

1:49:12emails it a disty list of three people

1:49:15an email

1:49:16>> address that's a disty list that comes

1:49:18to us and probably you since you're the

1:49:20keeper of the

1:49:21>> Okay. Yeah.

1:49:23>> I think that's also a just a feedback

1:49:26loop that I think would be beneficial.

1:49:30>> Yeah. So if I make a suggestion in this

1:49:32in these meetings and people are like

1:49:33that's a terrible idea and let me tell

1:49:35you what you're not thinking about then

1:49:36we can get that

1:49:38>> and you kind of have to weigh it all. I

1:49:39think all input is good.

1:49:41>> Uh but I think in the end majority of

1:49:44the public wants you to be fair.

1:49:47>> Don't be ripping us off.

1:49:48>> Yeah.

1:49:49>> You know be fair.

1:49:50>> And if you can like I said if you can't

1:49:52defend anything you shouldn't be doing

1:49:54it.

1:49:55>> So whatever we come up with we should be

1:49:58able to defend it to the public. we did

1:50:00this and here's why we did it.

1:50:02>> And I think that is the biggest driver

1:50:05of what the public wants to see.

1:50:07>> Transparency and whatever you do, you

1:50:10better be able to explain it.

1:50:16>> So, we are at an hour and 45 minutes. If

1:50:19we're keeping to a twohour

1:50:23goal, we should probably start divvying

1:50:26up.

1:50:26>> Yes.

1:50:28Mayor, can I just ask one more thing?

1:50:31There in our original scope of work

1:50:33here, we also added ethics.

1:50:36And to me, I think we might be able to

1:50:41just almost cross that one off tonight

1:50:44or maybe we should talk about it, you

1:50:47know. So, this comes from Wambbleon

1:50:49Dickinson. The town council should

1:50:51provide a similar certification of

1:50:53compliance with its adopted code of

1:50:54ethics.

1:50:56Maybe Lisa, you can clarify too.

1:51:00Does this mean a separate code of ethics

1:51:02that we have written for ourselves above

1:51:06and beyond the ethics that we all have

1:51:10to take

1:51:11>> and by the way we have

1:51:12>> right so you already have a was it 164

1:51:16you have a you have a policy statement

1:51:18code of ethics. Um, so I think what was

1:51:20being referred to here was that as part

1:51:23on an annual basis in concert with your

1:51:26review of the future town manager that

1:51:30you would the town manager would certify

1:51:33that um that he or she is complying with

1:51:36the code of ethics and that the council

1:51:40on an individual basis would also

1:51:42certify we've been complying with our

1:51:44own code of ethics.

1:51:46>> Okay. Um, so you have an existing code

1:51:48of ethics, you know, you can always look

1:51:50at that and see if you think it needs

1:51:52revision, but it was really referring to

1:51:53any existing code of ethics that that

1:51:56you have

1:51:56>> that came from the OSA or

1:51:59>> that came from

1:52:01>> it is um 164 the last update in 2010.

1:52:06>> And so I guess how do how would we

1:52:11satisfy that recommendation from Wombo

1:52:13Bond? This be

1:52:16>> like annually at a work session we

1:52:19>> So is it semianually we're required to

1:52:23do ethics training and fill out a form

1:52:27and then Campo does it every year?

1:52:29>> Yes.

1:52:30>> We have to do it once every time we're

1:52:32elected.

1:52:33>> Yes.

1:52:33>> Oh that's what it is.

1:52:35>> So every four years

1:52:36>> and I have to do it every year. The womb

1:52:39recommendation is that you actually

1:52:40certify that you have complied with your

1:52:42ethics policy throughout that past

1:52:4412-month period.

1:52:46>> Okay?

1:52:48>> And um we'll also look what we need to

1:52:50also provide you the ethics policy.

1:52:53>> Um and you can see that that has

1:52:56[clears throat] specific limits on the

1:52:58manager being involved at all in

1:52:59anything political, you know, campaigns,

1:53:02fundraising. And so part of I think what

1:53:05WMBLE is looking for you to certify is

1:53:06that you also have not asked the town

1:53:08manager to donate to your campaign

1:53:10>> and those sorts of things. So those will

1:53:13kind of tie in together. But it's

1:53:14looking for more like on an annual

1:53:16basis,

1:53:17>> have you adhered to your code of ethics

1:53:19and also you know helps the manager

1:53:21adhere to their code of ethics. So kind

1:53:24of looking back at the year and agreeing

1:53:27yes you know we've done that. Do you

1:53:30think

1:53:32the spirit of that recommendation would

1:53:35be like an annual ethics review in an

1:53:38open meeting?

1:53:39>> It could be handled. Yeah, it could be

1:53:40handled in a lot of

1:53:41>> something like that. So, that's one way.

1:53:43>> So, that sound like a recommendation

1:53:45already. That doesn't sound very hard.

1:53:47>> Yeah. No. Yeah. Well, I think the spirit

1:53:49of that is probably to remind you of

1:53:50what your ethical obligations are. An

1:53:53unethical person is going to affirm and

1:53:55go, "Oh, yeah.

1:53:57>> Yes.

1:53:58>> Heck yeah.

1:53:59Um, so

1:54:00>> yeah,

1:54:01>> I think it's good

1:54:03to do it, but the spirit of it probably

1:54:07really is affirming those things that

1:54:09can be sticky. And just to remind us,

1:54:12like you said, not pressuring staff into

1:54:15helping with a campaign or, you know,

1:54:18donating or saying anything. Those kinds

1:54:20of things. I think it probably

1:54:23would be a helpful reminder each time.

1:54:25Mhm.

1:54:27>> So, I got that as a second

1:54:29recommendation.

1:54:30>> I like it. I would like to I'm going to

1:54:32go home and review that, too, and see

1:54:36if there's any clearing omissions. I

1:54:38imagine there isn't, but

1:54:41>> All right, divvying up.

1:54:42>> Okay, ready [clears throat] to divvy.

1:54:44>> Carissa is doing salary. She's looking

1:54:47up.

1:54:47>> Her face screamed. I want to do that.

1:54:50>> No, no. I this is why I thought we

1:54:52should have the conversation about all

1:54:53of them first and then we're going to

1:54:56come back and we're all going to have a

1:54:57chance to discuss it anyway. So, please

1:54:59run with compensation. I think you had

1:55:03uh a lot of good thoughts but maybe less

1:55:05enthusiasm for having to commit it to

1:55:07writing for training. So, I am happy

1:55:10[laughter] I am happy to do that

1:55:11instead.

1:55:12>> I write all day long.

1:55:14>> Listen, I hear you.

1:55:16>> I know.

1:55:17So, yes, Mayor, I will take a stab at

1:55:21distilling our conversation about travel

1:55:24and training and meals into a very rough

1:55:28rough outline of what that policy

1:55:32could look like. At the very least, the

1:55:34terrain it needs to cover and look at

1:55:38some examples of of different models for

1:55:42how to do that.

1:55:45And this is ahead of the meeting next

1:55:47Monday.

1:55:47>> Yes. Okay.

1:55:49>> Can I ask Lori Bush to do my homework?

1:55:52[laughter]

1:55:53>> What's the policy on that?

1:55:55>> More reliable than AI. I say go for it.

1:55:57>> She's human AI.

1:55:58>> Yes, exactly. Human AI.

1:56:00>> All right. So, what is my task?

1:56:04Or did I get out?

1:56:05>> Yeah. Keep us on task. Yeah. keep us on

1:56:08track

1:56:09>> because one thing we didn't talk about

1:56:11but we can eventually is

1:56:15benefits.

1:56:17Yes,

1:56:18>> benefits is a separate state statute

1:56:20just to define your you know earlier you

1:56:24can change that I believe at any point

1:56:26during the year but it is a separate um

1:56:28there's a separate state statute it's

1:56:30specifically around health insurance

1:56:32>> if you could you take that as your to-do

1:56:36determining what our benefits actually

1:56:38are

1:56:39>> okay

1:56:40>> I don't I have no idea at this point I

1:56:43know I was told staff did tell me when I

1:56:45was first elected what my options work

1:56:47and they do ask me whether or not I need

1:56:49>> health insurance every year during the

1:56:51sign up period.

1:56:52>> You have a you have a very short policy

1:56:54on on benefits.

1:56:57>> This is not a failure. This is a failure

1:56:59of my pay because I get them through

1:57:00work so I don't pay

1:57:01>> and so I elected to ensure me and his uh

1:57:08and my husband stayed on his employer um

1:57:10based insurance. So I know

1:57:14health, dental,

1:57:16>> visions included and then a health

1:57:18spending account.

1:57:19>> Yeah. And I don't know if like it's do

1:57:22they pay for it like it

1:57:23>> but so we pay the same premiums as

1:57:25staff.

1:57:26>> Yeah.

1:57:26>> So it's not free but we get to elect

1:57:29essentially to have staff's we can elect

1:57:32to have the same coverage of staff and

1:57:34pay the same premium employee plus

1:57:37family premiums. But ahead of this

1:57:39discussion, I'd also like to know um if

1:57:42there are other unusual exceptions to

1:57:46the benefits for council, like if you're

1:57:50on council for a certain amount of time,

1:57:52you can stay on the benefits or if

1:57:54there's any any I think there's some

1:57:56nuance

1:57:57>> to it as well. Or maybe there isn't and

1:58:00I was just misinformed. I don't know.

1:58:01>> Yeah, I think there's I think there's

1:58:03not. [laughter]

1:58:04>> Yeah, I just want to know that ahead of

1:58:06the discussion so that we're not

1:58:09Yeah.

1:58:09>> Missing anything when we address it?

1:58:11>> Yes. And that policy is 117.

1:58:14>> Covers group health and dental. Not

1:58:16>> my work's going to be easy.

1:58:18>> 117 you sent to me.

1:58:20>> I already got it. I'm done. Policy 117.

1:58:23>> Again, the school of government had all

1:58:25of that that wealth of county

1:58:27>> information, not municipal information.

1:58:30But in looking at the county

1:58:32information, it seems very common that

1:58:35county commissioners are offered the

1:58:37full suite of

1:58:38>> state benefits.

1:58:39>> Of benefits. Yeah.

1:58:42>> Again, to narrow it,

1:58:44>> health insurance related benefits.

1:58:46>> Health insurance related. Yes. Thank

1:58:47you. We would not like benefits to sound

1:58:49like a really broad category. I mean

1:58:51health insurance related benefits.

1:58:54>> You know, not vacation, sick time.

1:58:57>> Yes. Other things.

1:58:58>> No. No. Not not paid holidays. Correct.

1:59:03Yeah. The c in fact the categories there

1:59:06were health dental vision. Oh and 401.

1:59:10>> Um they also in but that was not common

1:59:12to be offered that. That was a a column

1:59:14because this was a yes or no situation

1:59:17of our commissioners offered these kinds

1:59:20of benefits. And so the columns were

1:59:24health, dental, vision, retirement, life

1:59:28insurance. Um

1:59:30>> I have to do more research on those.

1:59:31>> Yes.

1:59:32>> If you want to go outside the health,

1:59:33dental, vision, let me know.

1:59:34>> But it looked like those categories

1:59:37existed, but the answer to our

1:59:39commissioners offered it were no.

1:59:41[laughter]

1:59:42>> Okay.

1:59:44>> Okay.

1:59:45>> So I have I'm going to try to review

1:59:49this really quick. We came up with two

1:59:51recommendations which we will recommend

1:59:53to council in the future. U council

1:59:57travel expenses should be available for

2:00:01viewing and that can be added now and

2:00:05then council uh should affirm their

2:00:07ethics annually. We didn't give a date

2:00:10on that. Does that matter?

2:00:14>> So WBO suggested doing it in concert

2:00:16with the manager's review. So I would

2:00:19say that would start with the review of

2:00:22your permanent manager.

2:00:23>> Okay.

2:00:24>> So it would essentially be you know

2:00:27with their annual review. So think next

2:00:29June or July.

2:00:30>> Okay. And then for homework Carissa's

2:00:33got compensation. Britney has travel

2:00:35training and meals with examples and I

2:00:38have council benefits

2:00:40and any exceptions to those benefits for

2:00:44council. Anything

2:00:46else before we stop? We're getting

2:00:48closer to our mark

2:00:50>> and back here.

2:00:52>> Monday, September 14th

2:00:54>> is back in this room one. Oh,

2:00:58>> well, we will have one. It's on the

2:01:0114th. And let me just check this.

2:01:03>> 14th at 5:15.

2:01:05>> Chenise. So, you're not stuck here

2:01:07indefinitely because you're Are you our

2:01:08clerk for this committee?

2:01:10I will be because it it's after hours

2:01:12but I might um Yes. But because we have

2:01:15to run the technology

2:01:17>> well so that there's some predictability

2:01:19for staff. Do you guys want to set

2:01:21actual time so they know when they get

2:01:23to leave?

2:01:24>> So we said 7:15 2 hours

2:01:27>> 5:15 to 7:15

2:01:31>> so we can

2:01:32>> that feels too long for staff three

2:01:34Mondays in a row.

2:01:35>> Yeah, that's fine. Don't you think?

2:01:38>> I mean, I'm just bamished right now. Um,

2:01:40I can only imagine everybody else is

2:01:43having

2:01:43>> I mean, you can change it to whatever

2:01:45you like. Hour and a half.

2:01:46>> Hour and a half. 6:45.

2:01:49>> Yeah.

2:01:50>> I don't want anybody to hate me.

2:01:52>> No, I I wish we could run it on our own.

2:01:55You know, the the whole idea was we

2:01:57would have a committee so that we

2:01:59wouldn't tax staff quite so much. Um,

2:02:02and here we are roping everybody in.

2:02:04Anyway, um, we appreciate you guys. I

2:02:06will post the room because there's

2:02:08already another um another meeting in

2:02:10this another public meeting in this

2:02:12room.

2:02:13>> Okay. So, it'll be a different room.

2:02:14>> Yeah. But it will be posted and so

2:02:16hopefully tomorrow I'll figure that out.

2:02:18Discuss.

2:02:18>> Okay.

2:02:19>> Okay.

2:02:20>> Post on the calendar.

2:02:22>> I think an hour and a half should be

2:02:24>> Yes. And the handouts you have in front

2:02:26of you have already uploaded them to the

2:02:28agenda. If people

2:02:31>> Okay. Anything else? All right. Do I

2:02:35need to put all the dates on my work

2:02:36calendar or are you going to send out

2:02:38invites?

2:02:38>> I just so we can

2:02:40>> resources.

2:02:41>> Thank you.

2:02:42>> All right, we are journ. Thanks.

2:02:43>> Thank you.

2:02:45Just

2:02:45>> add it all. Add it next week to my work

2:02:47calendar to make sure I don't

2:02:49>> Yes. Not that for but

2:02:5329.

2:02:53>> Thanks, Lisa.