2026-09-21 - Council Committee Meeting

06:45Let me know when you're ready.

06:52>> Okay. Uh we'll convene this uh

06:55recommendations committee. Um,

06:58we have an hour and a half set for this

07:01meeting. At our last meeting, I'm trying

07:04to get my bearings. I just sat down. We

07:07had homework.

07:09Um, I had the benefits.

07:12>> I had cell phones.

07:13>> We had cell phones.

07:16Britney, I can't remember which one you

07:18>> I brought my homework last week and

07:20assigned to you all to come.

07:22>> That's right. Yep. Yep.

07:26So, where would you like to begin?

07:28>> Let's start with Britney's instead of

07:30introducing something new. Does that

07:31sound okay? Does that make sense?

07:35>> Because you wanted feedback. This is

07:37thorough. And I was like, you know what?

07:39I read this and I was like, I'm going to

07:41say I think we should do this and not

07:42that.

07:44>> Here's the challenge, I think. So, you

07:46pulled together. Here's what everybody

07:47does, right? Here is a possible policy

07:52recommendation.

07:55I did not disagree with any of the

07:57possible policy recommendations, but

08:00they're not

08:02detailed for obvious reasons since you

08:03wanted feedback. I think um

08:06>> I hope the brackets were apparent too

08:08where it was just like blank space,

08:10right? Where you know like dollar amount

08:12to be determined.

08:14>> Correct.

08:15I think the best step forward for this

08:18if did you have a chance to go through

08:19it and like see like the policy

08:21recommendations

08:21>> I ran through it so long ago I'm trying

08:23to remember what I thought

08:25>> it's almost to me like a work session

08:27topic where the policy recommendation is

08:30that we have preapproved

08:33um events

08:36including these and then let the rest of

08:38council chime in if they feel that

08:40there's others that we haven't put in

08:42the bucket like I think we should add

08:43more detail

08:44and then let them flesh out the rest

08:47because it feels like it's a policy

08:49discussion and I don't think we want to

08:52get too far into

08:56policy like completely written out

08:58recommendations

09:00>> without of this type

09:02>> that are really sort of they're opinion

09:04based

09:05>> like should it be 500 should it be a

09:07thousand should the bucket be 2,000 I

09:09completely agree with the bucket but I

09:11also don't have an opinion I'm not free

09:14to travel and go to events and go to

09:16conferences.

09:17>> So I also don't have any relative

09:19experience even with experience on

09:21council to have a well-informed or

09:25reasonable you know.

09:26>> Yeah. So that that's I did but I none of

09:28them I disagreed with one word in one of

09:30them and I'll find it. Uh and it was

09:32like a tiny little thing. Um and I think

09:35it was on the whether it's local or or

09:42I'll find it but there was just one like

09:45well that depends on whether it's local

09:46or if you have to travel to it. Mhm.

09:49>> The only addition I would make to your

09:50recommendations is any out of town

09:53travel should have some kind of

09:55pre-approval

09:56>> Sure.

09:57>> element, don't you think?

09:58>> Oh, yeah.

09:58>> And that's for everybody's comfort and

10:01safety and all that more so than I'm not

10:04concerned that anybody's traveling

10:05somewhere for a a junket that's not

10:08important.

10:09>> Yeah. um you know we h we have to we

10:14have to figure out um we talked a little

10:16bit about this last week like what the

10:18work product is that we're bringing back

10:20to our colleagues um sort of working

10:22backwards from there. Um so absolutely I

10:24mean all of this is still up for grabs.

10:27Neither of you are shrinking violets.

10:29You do not need my permission to be as

10:31candid as you'd like uh with me. But

10:34just for good measure, I will affirm

10:36that I am not personally wed to any of

10:38this either. Um, so you do not have to

10:40be delegate. Well, we I mean we could

10:42rip this apart and, you know, start from

10:43scratch. Um, you know, this we just need

10:45somewhere to start with all of this,

10:47right? All of this we just need a

10:49starting point for us, a starting point

10:51to bring back to our colleagues. Um, so

10:54I mean all of this to me is still up for

10:57discussion. The second point on the

11:00first page, I put the whole thing in

11:02brackets because we didn't quite land on

11:06what the approval mechanism is. Does

11:10everything listed in this come to all

11:14seven of us for approval? You know, is

11:16it only above a certain threshold?

11:18Morrisville does over 500. Um, so I went

11:24even broader than out of state travel. I

11:26said any of this, you know, I mean the

11:28affordable housing conference that I

11:30think three of us are going to next

11:31month for 275

11:34uh registration fee.

11:36>> Does that come before seven of us? You

11:38know, I think it's fellow Lori and I are

11:39going, you know, if according to the

11:42policy we draft, would we come in a work

11:45session and say we'd like

11:50to attend this conference at at X price

11:52and all of us approve it or do we want

11:55to set a threshold? Do we want to

11:57distinguish between local and out of

12:00state? So, I mean, I I like I said, I

12:02didn't even take a stab at that one. I

12:05said, "Does everything come before

12:07council?"

12:07>> To me, logically, remember we discussed

12:09this logically, there's an awareness

12:11component. Here's my bucket, and for

12:12awareness, here's how I'm spending my

12:14bucket. If it's under a certain amount

12:17>> and or on the preapproved list, anything

12:21that doesn't meet those conditions then

12:23needs council approval.

12:24>> I'm with you.

12:25>> Right. I think that's kind of where we

12:27landed when we were discussing it.

12:29>> So, say that again for us, Council

12:31Member Co. Johnson. you're thinking

12:33because I'm going to take notes here for

12:34us.

12:34>> Pre-approved list.

12:35>> You know what? Before I do that,

12:37>> sorry, I'll go back and say we had

12:40talked about last week that maybe for

12:43these policies in particular, we would

12:46come to our colleagues with a slide deck

12:48and for each of them, we would have a

12:50possible policy recommendation.

12:53So, you know, all travel, training, and

12:55meal expenses are paid by individual

12:57county members are capped at maximum

12:58dollar amount for each fiscal year,

13:00right? And then underneath it, we would

13:01have growth cons alternatives.

13:05Um, that's up for grabs, too. We can

13:07decide to present this to our colleagues

13:09entirely differently. I mean, maybe we

13:12want just a possible policy

13:14recommendation, but it's got a lot of

13:15blank spaces in it, almost like math lip

13:18style, right?

13:19>> That's somewhat what I

13:20>> here's the framework, but we need you to

13:22f we collectively need to fill in all of

13:26the blanks. I do like the I do like the

13:30idea of bringing our collective

13:31three-person recommended policy and then

13:34perhaps take each element and put it on

13:36a separate slide just to discuss those

13:38and see if they want those elements

13:40adjusted.

13:41>> Yeah.

13:41>> So, because there's going to be some

13:42things they're going to go, "Yeah, $500,

13:44that makes perfect sense." And then

13:45there's going to be other things like,

13:46"Well, this should be on the

13:47pre-approved list or this shouldn't."

13:49Um, but I think I I' I've

13:53>> we want to recommend, but we don't want

13:55to

13:58go too far

14:00>> down the road, so to speak.

14:01>> So,

14:02>> do you [clears throat] think should we

14:03come up with an actual full recommended

14:04policy and then work with the full

14:06council

14:09>> on the details?

14:11>> I think we should come up as close as we

14:14can to that. Um what I'm after hearing

14:17this conversation what I would be wary

14:19of is

14:22when you go for approval of council if

14:24the number is so low then you invite

14:27political

14:29>> opposition to get involved uh let's say

14:32for instance somebody's anti-affordable

14:34housing you want to go to that

14:35affordable housing con I'm going to vote

14:37against it every time

14:38>> you know if I'm anti-affordable housing

14:41>> and so that shouldn't happen

14:44>> if if it's reasonable and it's on the

14:46pre-approved list.

14:48>> Yeah. So that threshold that that

14:51allowable threshold,

14:52>> but at the same time, the public should

14:53know what we're doing with their tax

14:55dollars.

14:55>> Yes. And that's the reporting mechanism.

14:58>> Yeah. So there's the awareness element

15:01bucket of money up to this amount and

15:04then there's the

15:06needs council approval part of it. Um

15:10could we go through these one by one

15:12tonight and see how far we get and what

15:15we do?

15:15>> Sure.

15:16>> Okay.

15:16>> So my understanding is we have a slot

15:20for tomorrow's work session

15:22>> before we go there.

15:23>> Yes.

15:24>> I want to know what we want to talk

15:26about at that. Do we want any

15:28information from the full council at

15:30that

15:31>> or do you want to just briefly talk

15:34about

15:35>> hey I'm doing research on this Britain's

15:37doing research on that. accuracies.

15:39>> Yeah, I think we had said that this

15:41probably is going to require more work

15:44before we take it to them. I mean, we

15:45can offer the briefest of of summaries

15:47to say this is all in the mix, but I

15:50believe council member Con Johnson is

15:53prepared to come tomorrow to gauge our

15:57colleagues interest in having a resident

16:00commission

16:03do this work, do the do the compensation

16:06and allowances work? Yeah, I have a note

16:09on my calendar to create some slides.

16:11>> Yeah, I was gonna ask Jenny.

16:16>> We we're up. It's up to us to do

16:18everything. Yes.

16:19>> So, um I will introduce it uh in my I

16:23will talk about benefits. Uh you have

16:25that information. The public should have

16:27that information

16:28>> of what I've researched and what staff

16:30has researched. The only question I have

16:34left for our HR rep who's uh on vacation

16:39is does council have anything that staff

16:42doesn't have, which I think the answer

16:45is no, but I need her to tell me. And

16:48then um what other differences

16:52um do we know about other than what we

16:54have? So, we have a great chart and I

16:57tried to pull out insurance stuff which

17:00has cost associated with it.

17:02>> Um, but anyway, I know I've jumped off

17:05topic now we're on this topic.

17:06>> No, I think this actually this is I

17:08think maybe the easier to tackle

17:09tonight. So, I think we should actually

17:11maybe do this, but we'll delve into

17:13this. So if I had a slide or I I think a

17:18slide on this, a slide on this and then

17:22um say, you know, we're going to create

17:24a policy, you know, or yeah, and uh let

17:29me know if you have any concerns because

17:30that's where we're going just because we

17:32don't want to go down a road. and even a

17:34single slide that says let's discuss a

17:37commission to study and recommend

17:40>> sure

17:40>> salary and b you know and benefits for

17:43council or something like that.

17:45>> So I'm sorry

17:48>> I was going to say I think Ashley um did

17:51she was out of the office but yet took

17:53time to look at this and say um that

17:56>> that this chart is comprehensive.

17:59>> Yes. Okay. Yeah, she approved the chart.

18:01It was all the updated chart was all

18:02everything.

18:03>> Okay.

18:04>> Then I'm kind of kind of done. So now we

18:07just need to create a policy. If we if I

18:11bring this up to the rest of the council

18:13and all four of the remaining ones say

18:16we don't want a health policy.

18:17>> You already have.

18:19>> Yeah. So I'm sorry.

18:20>> I know. But what if they take it away?

18:21Want to take it away.

18:22>> So you have a policy statement that says

18:25essentially what is reflected in the

18:27>> Yes. Okay. But but if the four want to

18:29take it away, that's when I want to hear

18:30it because we have a policy and this is

18:33what it's in.

18:34>> So yeah,

18:36>> so what is the exact language of that

18:38policy?

18:40>> It's very short.

18:42>> Yes.

18:43>> Putting you on the spot.

18:44>> I will just pull it right up from the

18:46website.

18:51Feel

18:54free to read if you

18:56know the number 117. All town of care

18:59elected officials are allowed to

19:00participate in the group health and

19:02dental insurance that is offered to all

19:03regular employees during their ten years

19:06as elected official. The cost of this

19:08coverage shall be the same as the cost

19:10to um be the same as the cost applicable

19:14to any full-time/regular employee. Any

19:16cost of dependent coverage shall

19:18normally be paid through payroll

19:20deduction on a pre-tax basis or

19:22arrangements can be made with a finance

19:24department to pay for coverage by

19:26another method.

19:27>> And when did that take effect? Like 2007

19:30or something.

19:30>> Uh take effect 2007.

19:33>> Yeah, I remember that

19:34>> there was some sort of amendment. So

19:362010 was the last time it was updated.

19:38>> Okay.

19:40>> [clears throat]

19:42>> And so effectively, mayor, you're

19:44proposing we're asking if we want any

19:46changes to that policy.

19:48>> So one of the

19:51bullet points we're supposed to look at

19:53is benefits, which includes what the

19:56council gets. And I'll say we have

19:58policy 117. We've researched it.

20:01>> You know, we basically get nothing

20:03that's nothing more than staff gets. We

20:06get less than what staff gets. Here's a

20:08chart. Yes.

20:10>> Now,

20:10>> do you want to change the policy

20:13um kind of thing

20:15>> or eliminate the policy

20:19>> and that would address that one

20:21>> and they're making a recommendation

20:24and if and I'll just I'll be frank. If a

20:28commission of citizens decides we don't

20:30need health insurance if we need it, we

20:31can reject that recommendation

20:34if we deem it inappropriate.

20:39I currently have health insurance, but I

20:41probably would feel very differently if

20:42I got laid off tomorrow and did not have

20:45>> health insurance for the fifth time in

20:47my life.

20:48>> It's a hardship I don't wish on anyone

20:51and I just can't imagine that any

20:53reasonable group of citizens would

20:55grudge us health insurance.

20:57>> Also, another alternative is we dictate

21:00the purview of the committee and by

21:03statute benefits are not compensation.

21:06compensation is salary and allowances.

21:08So we could also confine them to only

21:10that and then use our authority to set

21:13our own policy

21:16and treat benefits separately. I mean

21:19that's just you know that's

21:21>> that's another way to do it.

21:22>> That sounds pretty reasonable. And

21:24benefits are pretty complicated too. Um

21:27I've worked as a marketer to payers and

21:30insurers. It's the only reason I have a

21:31working knowledge of them. Mhm.

21:33>> Um they can be beasts if you don't know

21:37much about them.

21:37>> Mhm.

21:40>> Okay. So when I have that slot tomorrow,

21:44I will have a couple of slides. I guess

21:46I I'll be glad to work on them.

21:48>> Yeah.

21:49>> Unless if you could give me a template

21:51or something.

21:51>> We can send a template. Yeah, we would

21:53need um

21:54>> tomorrow [clears throat] or Thursday or

21:56tomorrow? Tuesday.

21:57>> Tomorrow is today's Monday.

21:59Um, [laughter] I can send out the

22:00template to the group and then

22:04yeah, we would need the slides. I would

22:07say earlier the better, but I think at

22:08least

22:11by 2 p.m.

22:17>> Are we dividing up the slides or

22:19>> Well, I was going to do the benefit

22:22stuff.

22:23>> Okay. that I had and it'll mostly be cut

22:27and paste and try to make it pretty on a

22:29slide and so it should take a lot of

22:31>> because I would think you know the

22:32policy 117 language and then basically

22:35this chart

22:36>> say here's policy we have here's the

22:39research we did

22:40>> we're headed down the road to confirming

22:42the policy or or make changes if you

22:44want

22:45>> or say we as a group feel it's important

22:49that the citizen commission that we're

22:52going to discuss us to make

22:54recommendations for our compensation

22:57move forward. But note that there that

22:59benefits would not be included in that

23:01discussion.

23:02>> Okay.

23:02>> I think that sounds like kind of

23:04>> health benefit.

23:05>> Well, no benefits aren't

23:09>> compens.

23:11So compensation is salary and

23:13allowances. So I mean your paycheck

23:18and then everything else is benefits and

23:22our policy defines benefits as medical

23:24and dental.

23:24>> So it's really a salary and allowances

23:27compensation commission that we're

23:29looking to convene

23:30>> unless we want benefits to be their

23:32purview, but that is up to us.

23:35>> Right.

23:39>> Okay.

23:40>> Yeah. Let's ask the council.

23:42[clears throat]

23:42>> All right. So I'm doing that slide.

23:44>> Can you do that slide for me so I don't

23:46have to slide that what we just

23:48discussed? That was on my homework to

23:49make that one slide.

23:50>> Benefits the

23:51>> the compensation.

23:54>> The resident committee.

23:57>> Do we want a resident committee?

23:59>> Yeah. I mean we can just ask the

24:00question. We don't even necessarily need

24:02a slide.

24:03>> Okay.

24:04>> We always have slides so it'll be a

24:05little weird.

24:09So I'll basically say compensation

24:11define it. Do we want a resident

24:14committee?

24:15>> What else do you want on that slide?

24:19>> I mean that's the big question.

24:20>> The detail that so the full council is

24:22aware of the fact that we cannot change

24:24>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

24:24>> the policy until the new budget's

24:26adopted. And it'll also help publicize

24:28that so that folks in the community know

24:30that we're not just

24:32>> dragging our feet

24:33>> dragging our feet on it that we're not

24:34in a position to do that this time.

24:38Thank you.

24:39>> Adopted. So, okay. What else

24:41>> I think the benefits.

24:43>> Okay. This

24:46>> Okay.

24:50Okay.

24:57>> All right. I've got compensation and

24:59benefits.

25:00>> Yeah. Because I think this is the pulse

25:03check we want to do before we

25:05>> start going too far down any one path is

25:08yeah get some feedback from the entire

25:11body tomorrow.

25:12>> Yeah.

25:13>> Do we want to talk about anything else

25:15as far as pulse check? Are we getting

25:18rid of allowances?

25:20>> I don't think so. I think we asked that

25:22would be part of the compensation and

25:24allowances discussion if we want to have

25:27a citizen. We said that's answered by a

25:29citizen committee. But if not, then we

25:31got to answer that.

25:32>> Then we got to have that question.

25:34>> So I I think just posing that question

25:36is going to lead

25:38>> or we let a a commission of citizens

25:40make that decision because it's going to

25:43be unwelcome by some and welcomed by

25:45others if we make the decision to pivot

25:47to straight salary and and eliminate

25:49those.

25:50>> I think that is probably also a decision

25:53to ask a a resident committee to make.

25:56>> Yeah. I think just posing the question

25:58tomorrow will allow us with the rest of

26:02council to think aloud about what this

26:06would look like and what questions they

26:07would answer for us. Um, but I mean what

26:10it'll really tell us is if the full

26:13council does not want to pursue a

26:16resident committee, then it's back on us

26:19to get as detailed as we're we're

26:21attempting to be now with

26:22>> But so we just we sort of need to know

26:24>> we need direction.

26:25>> Yes. is our direction to then start

26:28doing the work of forming the committee

26:30and figuring that out or are we not

26:32going to go that route and it's our work

26:35to then come up with the the skeleton of

26:38a policy

26:39>> because we could get feedback too. We

26:40could go that route where we choose to

26:43do the work come up with a

26:44recommendation in our group

26:46>> council can then weigh in come up with a

26:48sample recommendation like a full

26:50recommendation and then get citizen

26:51feedback. We have plenty plenty of time

26:53since we can't make the change until

26:55>> next May or so.

26:58>> The committee formation is going to be a

27:00big deal.

27:01>> Yeah.

27:02>> Um when and how needs to be answered.

27:06>> I think that's something we should talk

27:07about tomorrow, right? You know, I mean,

27:09if if people

27:12>> are

27:14interested in that idea, I think we

27:16should do some of that thinking aloud

27:20tomorrow. But how I mean it could sound

27:23great in theory and then we could you

27:25know brainstorm a little bit about the

27:29implementation and

27:30>> and it's been done in different ways

27:31too. Sometimes the mayor you know

27:33appoints people on a committee.

27:35Sometimes it's one from each board that

27:38we already have that exist. I mean

27:40there's it could be a net new not

27:42previously involved with the town board.

27:45Then how do you select it? Who does the

27:47appointment? That would be a way of let

27:51each board designate a member to

27:54[clears throat] be on the committee.

27:55That's how they did have to choose

27:57>> that you don't have to choose. Yes, you

27:58that's how we did the carry 150

28:00>> each of the advisory boards as I recall.

28:02That's how I ended up on it. I was

28:04chosen for me the ISAB.

28:07>> We have eight.

28:08>> We have eight.

28:09>> That's plenty. You don't want to go

28:11much.

28:11>> Well, we need an uneven number.

28:13>> Well, we're about to do another board,

28:15aren't we? Of course, that won't be in

28:16time.

28:17>> Probably. Yeah, probably won't be any

28:18time. That's probably your

28:21not going through another recruitment

28:22with interviews. That's a two-month

28:25process.

28:26>> So, thinking about that as well.

28:28>> To me, if you get a committee that has a

28:31four four on the decision, the decision

28:33is a fail.

28:34>> It's like a motion to approve, you don't

28:37have enough to approve, so it fails.

28:39Yeah.

28:39>> So, eight is fine.

28:41>> Okay.

28:43[clears throat] You've got more

28:44experience there. I trust you on that.

28:48All right. So, tomorrow I will come with

28:51slides. There will be a compensation

28:54slide. Um, do you want me to recommend

28:58the board and get the feedback from the

29:01council or just leave it wide open?

29:03>> I say wide open.

29:06>> I'll admit I'm ambivalent myself. I I

29:09see the pros and cons to it and so I I'm

29:12genuinely curious.

29:13>> I verbally recommend that that's how we

29:15approach it. Okay.

29:16>> It's the most nonpartisan way to do it I

29:19can think of because the boards are so

29:21so diverse.

29:23>> And then if we let the board themselves

29:25elect someone instead of us

29:27>> we could even go so far as we don't

29:29choose somebody from the board. The

29:31board chooses somebody.

29:32>> I like that.

29:33>> So, you know, that'll give us a good I

29:35believe diversity of thought on that.

29:38>> Yeah.

29:38>> On that committee. No, I mean that that

29:40addresses one of my biggest concerns was

29:44uh the appointment process, you know, I

29:46mean, if you're if you're trying to get

29:48as impartial as possible, the process

29:50also has to be as impartial as possible.

29:53That I think sounds like one good way to

29:55get as close as possible.

29:58>> Yeah.

29:59>> And Jenny, remind me when the boards

30:01start their new year.

30:03>> They start um October will be their

30:05first meeting. And you do have board, so

30:07they would be okay.

30:10So we

30:12Okay, we will ask them to

30:16when they convene in October to

30:18designate.

30:20>> Yeah, I was looking for your first

30:21council meeting. We might just want to

30:25have some aligned around the words and

30:27you're only going to miss two board. It

30:29depends how soon you want them to be. I

30:31I do sorry J didn't I do think um um you

30:37can talk through it tomorrow and tell us

30:38like what to send out but what what

30:41happened with 150 is the staff sent it

30:43out to the boards with wordage from

30:45council about the charge and um that

30:51stuff you may want to sign off at your

30:53council meeting you know just to like

30:55have it more official people can tune in

30:57watch conversations do some research so

30:59that would be the October

31:02[clears throat] the 8th.

31:03>> Okay.

31:03>> And we have onboarding new members too.

31:05We don't want to in the same meeting or

31:08immediately after the new people's come

31:10to the table, ask the table to pick

31:12somebody because those new members are

31:14unfamiliar too. So I think probably even

31:17waiting till early next year, you know,

31:20maybe December, January, I think makes a

31:23little bit of sense.

31:24>> So we can have this discussion tomorrow.

31:27[clears throat]

31:27>> Yeah. Yeah.

31:29I think that's a great point to make in

31:31front of the council.

31:32>> Yeah.

31:32>> Because some might be in a real burden.

31:35>> Let's do this now.

31:37>> Remember,

31:37>> yeah, we can't [clears throat] approve

31:39it till we approve the budget, which is

31:40>> Well, I need to jump in.

31:42>> Okay.

31:42>> Um because I've done additional

31:44research. Um and our charter actually

31:46has different language than the state

31:48statute.

31:48>> Okay.

31:49>> Um so I will read it out loud. It's

31:52section 3.7.

31:54Um it says the council may fix its own

31:56compensation and the compensation of the

31:57mayor and any other elected officials.

32:00Adjustments in the compensation of the

32:01mayor and any other elected officers may

32:04be made effective as such time as the

32:06council may direct, but the salary of

32:09elected officers shall not be reduced

32:10during the current term of office unless

32:13he shall agree there too. Um, so there's

32:17wording in here that it says the mayor

32:20and any other elected officers. At least

32:22for the mayor, you could adjust for sure

32:24you could adjust the mayor's

32:25compensation at any time you would like

32:28other than reducing it or reducing it

32:31with the mayor's consent.

32:33>> So, so what I'm hearing is you can't

32:35reduce it and you only raise it.

32:38>> Well, unless you say yes. [laughter]

32:41>> This sounds like an old policy.

32:43>> Well, this is our chart. So, this comes

32:45from the state legislature

32:46>> because we used to appoint mayors.

32:48>> Yeah. And it's probably a relic of olden

32:51times, but it is in the current carry

32:54charter. And so, it's worded just a

32:55little bit differently than the state

32:57law is worded.

32:58>> What supersedes what, the state law or

33:00the charter?

33:00>> Well, that's an interesting question.

33:02>> Um,

33:02>> you need to go to code canons for this.

33:04>> Well, I don't think they'll give you the

33:05answer. Um it's sort of an it depends

33:08but um the statutes themselves say you

33:11can use both and you can choose which

33:13one you want to go with [laughter]

33:16>> really.

33:16>> Yes. When there when there's kind of two

33:18ways of doing something the statute says

33:20one way and your local your local law

33:22which is what this is. This is a carry

33:24only local law as a different way of

33:26doing things. Then you can choose the

33:29way you want to go. So, I would say it's

33:31not the Coast Cannon article that you

33:34found that's based on the state law, but

33:36different people have different things

33:37in their charters. And so, ours is

33:39slightly different.

33:40>> And so, I think there's a little more

33:41wiggle room if you wanted to consider

33:44reducing for sure the mayor's um

33:46compensation during the year, but also

33:48potentially your own

33:51>> reduce or increase, right? If you just

33:53change, but not decrease mayor,

33:56specifically the mayor. Well, the salary

33:59of elected officers, I would say

34:01actually you probably can't reduce

34:02anyone's salary during the current term

34:04>> unless they agree.

34:06>> Um, so you could change and reduce the

34:09current. So again, as you pointed out,

34:11would we sort of be adding up

34:13>> pay, you know, salary plus benefits to

34:15get to a number and as long as that

34:17number

34:18>> so I don't have to hunt. Could you send

34:19me that in an email?

34:22>> I want to put that on a slide

34:25>> so everybody can see it.

34:26>> Yeah. So I just I hate I always hate as

34:30an attorney to talk about absolutes and

34:32you can't.

34:32>> So the citizen the citizen commission

34:35could do the work and if it's not a

34:38decrease to our total compensation we

34:41could adopt at any time. If it is a

34:44decrease to our total compensation, we'd

34:46have to adopt it as part of our fiscal

34:47year budget.

34:50>> Well, it's actually even broader than

34:51that. It says during the current term of

34:54August. Mhm.

34:56>> Well, so that would till the end of next

34:57year.

34:58>> Next term runs through November

35:00>> longer than that.

35:00>> 27. Yeah. Or December 27th.

35:05>> So, let me do some more work and

35:07thinking on this in terms of the exact

35:09timing that we need to think about um

35:12for when the changes could be affected.

35:14>> So, you're not there tomorrow or you

35:16are?

35:16>> I am there tomorrow. Yes, I'll be there

35:18tomorrow because I'll probably be

35:19calling on you. I imagine if we go with

35:22a resident commission route, it would

35:26probably be hard to get it much sooner

35:30than budget time anyway. But that would

35:32be one consideration. If you make the

35:34determination that we could in fact

35:36change policy sooner rather than later,

35:38if expediency is more important than a

35:42commission's review, we could adjust it

35:44ourselves. It sounds like maybe very

35:47quickly if we wanted to. Um, but I

35:49imagine if we go the committee route, it

35:52would probably be tough to get their

35:54work done. Their recommendation is to

35:56us, again, it's just a recommendation.

35:58We still have to do something with that

36:00um to pass it much before spring.

36:03>> And one of the recommendations is that

36:04information be clearly in our budget

36:06documentation anyways, what our salary

36:09compensation is. So,

36:10>> yeah,

36:11>> it needs to be it needs to be solidly

36:13part of the budget creation process

36:16anyways.

36:17>> Yeah. So yeah realistically it's

36:21>> so when we

36:24see how to say this when we create the

36:27committee assuming all this happens as

36:30we've discussed

36:32>> we say okay each board nominated person

36:35but getting back to what Jenny said from

36:37the 150 we've got to give them a charge

36:41>> and this committee is going to come up

36:42with that charge or we want to ask

36:44council that

36:45>> we can ask council but I think then we

36:47finesse it.

36:48>> Yeah, I think we would ask them the the

36:51broad charge, right? Like, does it

36:53include benefits? You know, is it just

36:55salary and allowance or is it benefits?

36:59But then I I think that's probably

37:03enough for us to have our marching

37:06orders to figure out uh directions for

37:09the committee.

37:11>> Okay.

37:13Look at us making progress and work for

37:15Lisa [laughter]

37:16and probably Jenny. Sorry about that.

37:21>> Okay, so anything else for tomorrow?

37:26If not, we can go back.

37:28>> I think that's plenty for tomorrow.

37:30>> Okay,

37:30>> I think doing this peace meal actually

37:32makes a lot more sense than inundating

37:34the full council with every minutia of

37:37all of these policy changes.

37:39[clears throat]

37:55Okay. Well, then I'm just going to use

37:58this again as some scaffolding to um uh

38:03advance through the conversation, but

38:06you know, we can finesse the language of

38:08what's here, but we can scrap all

38:10together. we can plug some holes and add

38:13anything that's missing. But so I'll

38:15I'll start with I'll just go in the

38:16order that I presented it in. So uh the

38:20individual annual expense allocation I

38:23think we have broad agreement that we

38:24like this bucket idea even if we don't

38:26know what the the dollar amount should

38:28be.

38:29So, uh, I wrote again all the

38:32qualifiers, possible recommendation,

38:35right? That that should sound as, um,

38:37tenuous as possible because this is all

38:39up for, uh, discussion amongst our our

38:42whole, uh, council. But so, all travel,

38:44training, and meal expenses acrewed by

38:46individual council members are capped at

38:49a maximum dollar amount for each fiscal

38:51year. When that maximum is reached, any

38:54additional expenses are the personal

38:55responsibility of the council member and

38:59the dollar amount is to be determined.

39:04>> And so, I mean, if we're still going

39:06through, you know, the slide deck idea,

39:07I can leave it just like that. Or do we

39:12want to come up with a dollar amount?

39:15>> I think we need to recommend a dollar

39:16amount, but before we do, we probably

39:18want some history. I don't know hard how

39:21hard that would be to get Jenny Dina how

39:26hard that would be or like I don't know

39:29how many years do you want to go back?

39:31>> Yeah.

39:32>> And you know what maybe we'll

39:34>> we got to go back and stop before co

39:36because co's a whole different thing.

39:39>> So like three years.

39:42>> Yeah. You know, I mean, there's going to

39:44be a lot of nuance here because, you

39:46know, another idea that I capture

39:49somewhere else in here is also

39:52are there exceptions that don't count

39:54towards your

39:56personal allocation? Um, you know, are

39:58there events that we just considered

40:02part of council's budgeted work and

40:07we'll all attend or we're all invited to

40:09and they don't count. And so depending

40:12or not, depending on which events

40:15qualify might determine how high that

40:18has to be.

40:20>> Mhm. And I would make an argument that

40:24there's dissatisfaction with some

40:26spending habits in the past.

40:28>> So past history isn't necessarily as

40:32applicable here as what we think

40:34reasonable thresholds should be for the

40:36future. would give us a discussion point

40:38though, you know, over that list. We

40:41probably shouldn't have done that and

40:43that one's okay. You know, that kind of

40:44thing is what I was thinking.

40:47>> Um, I think setting a reasonable cap

40:50also makes us prioritize because it does

40:53send the message you can't do all the

40:54things unless you want to pay for it

40:56yourself. So

41:00>> yeah,

41:00>> I can't I could throw out $4 amounts

41:02right now and I I I'm confident that

41:05individuals watching this would have a

41:07strong opinion on some of them and

41:09others find more appropriate. Do you

41:11know what I mean? Like I I think it

41:14almost doesn't matter what people spent

41:17in the past.

41:17>> I I could see that argument, right?

41:19Where what determining what's

41:22appropriate now

41:23>> and what are our peer communities? where

41:25like we see Morrisville has a $2,000 cap

41:28for example.

41:29>> That seems reasonable. If I if I were to

41:31learn that Charlotte has a $6,000 cap, I

41:34would not feel that's a reasonable

41:35amount

41:37>> and wouldn't consider it.

41:39>> Does that make sense?

41:40>> Let me give you an example. I actually

41:42spoke to a group that was coming here

41:44for an inner city visit

41:45>> and I did it inside the gathering house

41:48and I started off saying inner city

41:51visits are important because the place

41:53we're standing in today came that idea

41:57came from an inner city visit.

41:59>> Yeah.

42:00>> As we were walking through a park, what

42:02is that? Can we go in there? This is

42:05really cool. We should add that to our

42:07park design. Mhm.

42:09>> And that's how that came into play. Over

42:13the years, inner city visits have come

42:15up with a lot of those ideas. Inner city

42:19visits are important to me.

42:21>> I don't know how much we've spent in

42:23inner city visits. Um, and

42:28>> be nice to know

42:29>> what did we pay versus what the Chamber

42:31of Commerce paid, for example.

42:34>> Um, we could come up with like past

42:36inner city. I mean, that would be

42:38easier, but I just know coming up with

42:40lot of the last three years may be

42:42harder because that would okay

42:44>> would be right on or telling you what

42:46the inner city visit's going to cost

42:47this year might actually be more because

42:50they change each year.

42:51>> So, looking past may not matter if they

42:54choose to go somewhere different this

42:56year because it really depends what deal

42:57they get with the hotel. It's not a set

42:59amount.

43:01>> Um,

43:01>> okay. So we could come up, we could ask,

43:03we could find out from the chamber how

43:05much they're thinking or around because

43:07they haven't published it.

43:08>> I think they're thinking about going to

43:10the Atlanta area

43:11>> and how much that would be and then kind

43:13of that would be your baseline.

43:14>> They probably have a budget

43:16>> that they work within.

43:18>> They may I'm unaware of what they have

43:20and what's public. Yeah.

43:22>> You know, for people to have. So um but

43:24we could come up with the amount and

43:27maybe look at last year's too as just

43:29two numbers of like inner city visits. I

43:32think it it would be a lot to pull three

43:35years worth of stuff just to maybe not

43:37>> I don't want to create a ton of work.

43:40I'm just trying to get

43:41>> that would be on finance staff. It

43:42wouldn't be me. So that's why I'm really

43:44hesitant.

43:45>> Let me make get some clarity from both

43:47of you. In my head, registration fees

43:50and travel expenses are two different

43:53buckets.

43:54>> I think in my mind, this is one bucket.

43:57We've got we've got a bucket to budget

44:00personally. And you know, to your point,

44:04your day job doesn't allow you to do a

44:07lot of travel um for council work.

44:11Correct me if I'm wrong. That's what I

44:12I've heard you say. Um and so

44:16your bucket might be a few things here

44:20or there when you can,

44:22>> right? One inner city trip in four

44:25years, for example. I think that's the

44:26only council travel I've done.

44:30>> Um,

44:32but I do it because I'm at large and

44:36Harold, you can attest to this. We we

44:38are all over the place.

44:42um if this bucket when I was doing some

44:45of the research on allowances I was like

44:48well people think my car allowance is

44:51absurd but I put a fair number of miles

44:54on my car driving for council and I know

44:57this because I don't drive it otherwise

44:59[laughter]

45:00>> I drive it to the courthouse once in a

45:02while for my volunteer stuff otherwise

45:04almost all the miles on my car are

45:06council miles um and it's the real ex

45:11The real travel for me is zipping around

45:13the 60 square miles that carry is it two

45:17>> 60

45:18>> 60

45:18>> 60 point something yeah

45:20>> be boopping around carry um and it's

45:26this bucket I in my head I envisioned it

45:29a you needed to register I just paid for

45:32my North Carolina um Coalition on Aging

45:35registration I just didn't even want to

45:38>> deal with all of this so I just paid get

45:40it out of my pocket,

45:42>> right? But that is a local event, but

45:43that is,

45:44>> you know, really a council thing. Um,

45:48and so that's where I I'm getting a

45:50little confused in my head when we're

45:52talking about travel and events like

45:55really what is that bucket? Is that all

45:57not at town hall meetings?

46:01>> Yeah. I

46:02>> is that the definition which I'm

46:03perfectly fine with. I just want to

46:04>> I mean what I wrote is all travel,

46:07training, and meal expenses. And I mean

46:09because I called this whole thing travel

46:10training and meals. To me that was like

46:12the biggest bucket. But if those three

46:14words are either not inclusive enough or

46:18too restrictive we can be more specific.

46:22But to me, this is a bucket of um yes,

46:29all of the expenses that the town might

46:34pay for in the execution of our duties.

46:38This is not mileage reimbursement. We

46:40are not talking about travel. We're not

46:42talking about our car allowance, right?

46:44That's compensation. That's a fixed

46:46amount. Um, we're talking about

46:49attending a local conference with a

46:51registration fee or uh there was the

46:56carrying place GABA. Um, and I even, you

47:00know, when we get down to there, if we

47:02get there tonight, we might need a

47:03couple of meetings to to go through this

47:05because it's dense. Uh, you know,

47:07there's also going to be a difference if

47:10the town is a sponsor and they've

47:12purchased a table and we with staff are

47:15offered a seat at an already purchased

47:18sponsorship table versus a standalone

47:21event that maybe only the atlarges are

47:23invited to, for example, um, and the

47:26town isn't a sponsor. So, you would each

47:28need an individual ticket, but

47:31>> all of that is your personal bucket. So

47:35you have X dollars a year to allocate

47:38and you get to decide do you want to

47:40maybe spend twothirds of it on a inner

47:43city trip or do you nickel and dime it

47:46all year long because you're doing a

47:47table here and a thing there and a

47:50occasional gala and a conference when

47:52you can make it to. But that all of

47:54those expenses we would be tallying

47:57towards a personal maximum beyond which

48:00we would then be free to continue

48:03attending at our own personal expense.

48:06>> Do you feel do you both feel that that

48:08is the spirit in which most people want

48:10to see us reform our policy? Like that

48:12would

48:13>> I think that

48:15>> for me

48:15>> they want to know and they want to know

48:17the pre-approved list. what what things

48:19are you going to,

48:20>> you know? I'm not like going to a pickle

48:22ball tournament in Atlanta. That has

48:23nothing to do with anything.

48:25>> Yeah. But

48:26>> and I just I think the gray area is

48:29tough for us because now the onus is on

48:32each of us as seven individuals to

48:34decide what feels appropriate because we

48:38don't have policy that is this specific.

48:41So again, just to get back to the

48:43affordable housing conference next

48:44month, Bella and I said, and I you know

48:48what, I won't speak for Bella. Uh but I

48:51said I am attending this in the

48:53execution of my duties. If not for being

48:55on council, I would not be attending

48:58this conference, but I feel that what I

49:00will learn there is appropriate for this

49:03role. And so to me, I said, "Yes,

49:06please, town staff, purchase my

49:09registration to the conference." Mayor

49:12Prom Bush elected to pay for her own

49:15registration. And again, I do not want

49:16to put words in her mouth either because

49:18she should be able to offer her own

49:20rationale. But let's just say

49:22hypothetically

49:24her rationale is

49:25>> I'm not certain. We don't have a policy.

49:28>> I'm just to to be safe, I'm going to pay

49:31for it myself. I think she's attending

49:35in uh uh in executing her duties and

49:40that she really shouldn't have to pay

49:42out of pocket the way anybody in any

49:44ordinary job would not pay out of pocket

49:46for attending a conference that is part

49:48of their job responsibilities and yes an

49:51industry conference. Um but I don't

49:54blame her for making I made one decision

49:56she made the other. both are defensible

50:00because we don't have a policy that

50:02tells us which one is the the right

50:07choice. And so I think this gives us

50:11that opportunity to say

50:14with a reporting mechanism, right, that

50:16it's going to come it's to the public

50:18and to one another. we know where our

50:20dollars are being spent, but that if it

50:23is in the execution of our duties, if it

50:27is in the pursuit of our council work,

50:30that we have the ability to have that

50:33paid.

50:34>> Well, and I would add another layer to

50:38that.

50:38>> If you go to these conferences or

50:41wherever you go on tax dollars, you

50:43should report. If I was in the corporate

50:45world, if I went to something, I have to

50:47come back and tell what I learned or

50:49what I saw, what I experienced.

50:51>> It could be a paragraph,

50:53>> it could be a couple of pages. It could

50:55be anything.

50:56>> Key takeaways.

50:57>> Yeah. Uh but I think that should be part

51:00of it. Explain to the public why you use

51:03their tax dollars to do this.

51:05>> Um and if you can't do that, probably

51:08shouldn't go.

51:08>> Yeah, I agree. I agree.

51:12And you know to your point too mayor you

51:14know if you have a passion project or

51:17you know a passion issue and you want to

51:20attend all of the conferences on that

51:23issue to the ex you know at the expense

51:25of attending something else

51:29that is up to you to allocate your

51:31dollars how you see fit

51:35>> with all of these other mechanisms in

51:38place approval of our colleagues and

51:40reporting back to both the public and

51:43the council.

51:44>> Yeah. Yeah.

51:45>> Because it's not a free-for-all.

51:47It has to be relevant to your council

51:49duties.

51:51>> So, what do you think we need to get to

51:54a dollar amount to recommend to council

52:00because 2,000 and 6,000 or whatever that

52:02difference was is pretty large

52:05>> or smaller.

52:07Don't know.

52:08>> Yeah.

52:08>> Where we get that number. I mean, I

52:11think that's fair.

52:17>> Don't have an opinion.

52:20I don't I I

52:22you get up

52:25I think we could easily go too high.

52:28>> Yeah.

52:29>> Um

52:32and there's other there's a couple other

52:34questions I think that are associated in

52:35here.

52:36Um the only thing I you know association

52:39memberships for example that's probably

52:41one of the larger council expenses I

52:44have

52:46>> and I'm talking like the NCO NCCOA like

52:49that's just a an association that you

52:52know there's a membership not talking

52:53about partisan associations or partisan

52:56organizations

52:57>> add membership and subscription to this

53:01it says because it says travel training

53:03and meal should it say

53:05>> well and I don't know I don't know if

53:06that should be a part of that if I'm an

53:08individual member.

53:08>> That's an interesting question because

53:10I'm a member of the Wake County Mayors.

53:13>> I was going to say is to pay dues once a

53:16year.

53:16>> That was

53:17>> Does that come out of my bucket?

53:20>> Um because if not, if I choose not to go

53:24there, then I would be one the only one

53:26out of the 12 that's not represented.

53:28>> Yeah, that's what I mean. Nobody can

53:30take my place.

53:32>> Well, and should your bucket be a little

53:33bit bigger because there's a handful of

53:35things that are unique to you that would

53:37be egg on her face and also problematic

53:40with the relationships to our peer

53:41communities if the mayor's not

53:43attending.

53:44>> I mean, but let me ask, do you consider

53:47that membership discretionary or is that

53:50more or less required? I consider it

53:53almost required because you're if you're

53:56not there, you're not representing

53:57Carrie and

54:00based on what we're doing now.

54:02>> Yeah.

54:03>> I'm going there late.

54:04>> Yes.

54:05>> U because they're going to want to hear

54:07what I have to say

54:08>> because I mean I wouldn't count that

54:11[clears throat and laughter] but the

54:12devil is going to be in these details

54:15>> to figure that out. I will say when um

54:18we are invited as an organization

54:21um to be a member of things so not an

54:24individual we do have a like a

54:27organizational place where we

54:30>> and then somebody's appointed to that

54:32>> we pay the league we pay the league the

54:36UNCC school of government

54:38>> um we pay the mayor's association but

54:42also the metro mayor's

54:44>> um association about Yeah, because I

54:46think all of these are already approved

54:50through the budget process. You know,

54:52this is already part of the execution of

54:55the the council's support of the

54:58council's work that would not count

55:01individually.

55:02>> And in my opinion, if you start

55:03dissecting that, then you're harming

55:05Carrie because we're not represented

55:07where we should be.

55:08>> Yeah. So define, you know, we could have

55:11any and policies can have exclusions

55:13excluding um memberships or invitations

55:17extended to us as a whole organization,

55:21not as an individual member.

55:23>> Something like that

55:24>> I think would help clarify that there

55:26was

55:26>> say invitations because that gets like

55:27into the event or Yeah,

55:29>> I would say organizational memberships.

55:32There you go.

55:32>> Is probably how we refer to them now.

55:35And so like you said, you recently paid

55:37for the coalition of aging. If Michelle

55:40had a organizational membership, she

55:43could have paid out of that. And I don't

55:44know if yours

55:45>> and we might if we get some clarity on

55:47this stuff, right? But in the meantime,

55:49you know, we're attending together just

55:52separately. You know, I just joined as

55:54an individual member, which is probably

55:56a good thing anyways.

55:58>> Um but it doesn't represent Carrie as

56:00well as Carrie being a sponsor and a

56:03member. Yeah. And so that would come out

56:06of her bucket just like with Campo that

56:08comes out of transportation's bucket

56:10even though we do have

56:12um people on their board. So it's a

56:14little bit spread out more than probably

56:16you realize.

56:19>> Well, how about this? Let's put a pin in

56:21it and let's because we're going to have

56:22a lot more of these questions I think as

56:24we go through that might help inform

56:27even just an intuition of what that

56:28dollar amount might be. Yeah. So let's

56:31keep that as a question in the forefront

56:33as we talk about the other dimensions.

56:36>> Yeah. And just park one other question

56:38whether or not um surrogates can be

56:41allowed and what whether or not we're

56:43sharing are we pooling

56:45>> right? Can

56:46>> can you pull if not that's fine just I

56:49think we should answer that question

56:50because that's going to come up.

56:51>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

56:54So then the next one we started this

56:56evening answering a little bit if every

56:59expense should be approved by the full

57:01council and mayor you argued no we

57:04probably don't want to nickel and dime

57:06one another that we should probably

57:08>> you just think it becomes political when

57:09you or could become you don't want to

57:12create an ordinance or

57:14>> yeah where you're just embiding

57:19>> politics

57:20>> so Morrisville set that threshold at 500

57:23Right. Um,

57:26you know, Chapel Hill was really broad.

57:28It just says council members are free to

57:30choose which of any they want to attend.

57:32Um, and they don't have a a peer

57:35approval process

57:36>> and they don't have a recommended or not

57:38a recommended pre-approved list.

57:39>> No, I mean theirs is really broad. It

57:41says you choose if it's the professional

57:43meetings you wish to attend. Um

57:48so you know this is

57:50pretty closely related to the next one

57:53which is uh we would then still want

57:58uh that that regulating mechanism to

58:02know that then

58:05these dollars aren't being spent

58:07anywhere on anything and so that is the

58:10transparency part. So, you know, right

58:13now we said that these would be captured

58:15in consent consent agendas per procedure

58:17established by the clerk's office. And

58:20so, we will see that on Thursday night,

58:22the first iteration of what that looks

58:24like. Um, it's live now.

58:27>> Yes.

58:28>> Which, you know, uh, we can still

58:31iterate and refine over time. Um, so

58:34just to point out, if we set a dollar

58:37amount here,

58:40those purchases below that dollar amount

58:42are still being reported.

58:44>> So it's not as if they get, you know,

58:46sort of lost in the ether that anything

58:48under 500 then nobody knows where it was

58:50spent. It's still reported. It's just it

58:53doesn't trigger a vote of seven.

58:55>> Nope.

58:58So, do we want to pursue a a threshold?

59:04And now we have another subjective call.

59:07What is that threshold?

59:10I

59:10>> mean 500 seems reasonable to me.

59:14>> It depends on Well, I mean it does seem

59:16reasonable. However, it also depends on

59:19the allowance.

59:21>> Oh, that's true.

59:21>> I mean, if your allowance is 700

59:25>> Yeah. Uh but if it's, you know, a bigger

59:28number like 2,000 like Morrisville or a

59:31bigger number,

59:32>> 500 being the total trip amount

59:36>> or lodging meals,

59:38airfare,

59:41I think yes. Yeah, I think you know it

59:45being the execution of whatever it is

59:48you're asking for. So yes, I don't think

59:49for like if you're going on an inner

59:51city trip, you're going to break it in.

59:54you're not going to itemize it and ask

59:56for approval for

59:59accommodations that are over five and

1:00:01airfare that's under I think you're

1:00:03going to have to put that into the inner

1:00:05city total cost and ask for that

1:00:09>> and without going too far in the weeds

1:00:11let's say I estimated it's $490

1:00:15and we don't come before council it ends

1:00:18up being more just come back later and

1:00:21say hey it's more

1:00:23>> or you got approval for $1,200 and it

1:00:25cost $1,622.

1:00:27Then what? Are you in trouble?

1:00:31>> Yeah, I I I know that sounds silly, but

1:00:34>> I

1:00:40Or you get an approved amount that

1:00:43you'll be reimbursed for and you're on

1:00:45your own. Like again, if if we're paying

1:00:47with our own cards,

1:00:48>> you're talking about a reimbursement.

1:00:50Maybe we get approval for a

1:00:52reimbursement total and then if that

1:00:55amount that we spent ended up being

1:00:57different than what we we had approved

1:01:00and that we kept receipts for, you can

1:01:03request an amendment. Let's if $300 more

1:01:05and you think it's fair that you get

1:01:07that extra 300.

1:01:08>> So maybe you maybe you got stuck there

1:01:11because of weather and it was of no

1:01:12through no fault of your own, for

1:01:14example. I think this is less about the

1:01:16dollar amount

1:01:18that [clears throat] the expense is

1:01:20going to incur because remember it's

1:01:21going to count towards your allocation,

1:01:23right? So you're you're if you go over

1:01:26what you think it's going to cost, it's

1:01:28still counting towards your your overall

1:01:30bucket and you've used up more money and

1:01:32it could it was it's not necessarily a

1:01:35reimbursement because you could be

1:01:36asking our clerks to be purchasing these

1:01:39things for us. Uh you know to to be

1:01:43making arrangements or or executing

1:01:45council um uh conference registrations.

1:01:48Um, I think this is less about the

1:01:52dollar amount and more about uh

1:01:56uh what threshold

1:01:59do we need to buy in to just the value

1:02:03of what it is you want to do? Is it

1:02:06worthwhile? It's it's because it's

1:02:08expensive, you know, whatever. If it's

1:02:10500, we're saying above 500, we need to

1:02:16it needs to be approved because we need

1:02:18to verify the value of what you're

1:02:20doing. Less so the dollar amount. It's

1:02:22more so

1:02:24>> uh we want to know even if it's your own

1:02:27allocation, even if you know you're

1:02:29you're going to be counting it towards

1:02:30your own bucket, above this amount feels

1:02:33like a pretty big expense, we want to

1:02:35say, "Yeah, that feels like a valuable

1:02:38way for you to allocate your dollars.

1:02:40And then how the you know actual uh

1:02:43dollars and cents works out will be one

1:02:47reported in the reporting mechanism two

1:02:50counting towards your overall allocation

1:02:51that you're going to be capped at. So I

1:02:53don't think it matters so much exactly

1:02:55how much you spend more. So do we want a

1:02:59policy that we at some point say because

1:03:03it's going to cost this much money. We

1:03:05want to weigh in on whether that's

1:03:07valuable

1:03:08>> or if you can reasonably expect your

1:03:10trip to be over $500, you need to first

1:03:13get council approval. Not for the

1:03:14specific dollar amount.

1:03:16>> Exactly.

1:03:16>> But for the expense itself

1:03:18>> close to

1:03:19>> Yeah. I mean, you know, if it's 100

1:03:22>> 75, I don't know if it's going to be

1:03:23that or not. I'll go ahead.

1:03:25>> Yeah.

1:03:26>> Or not, you know, and then and and then

1:03:30>> you and then ultimately, like, for

1:03:32example, somebody like me,

1:03:34>> I am not going to eat at at Subway three

1:03:37times a day. So, I won't have what the

1:03:43auditor would recommend as a receipt for

1:03:47$16 for dinner. Not. It's just not going

1:03:50to happen. So, if this policy could be

1:03:52comprehensive enough that I can go and

1:03:54get whatever

1:03:56vegetarian or seafood thing delights me

1:03:59that day, I I just get my $16. Like,

1:04:01here's a receipt. I did have dinner. It

1:04:03was in the course of executing my

1:04:05duties. What I would like is for the the

1:04:07for it to be kind of that clear where

1:04:10it's this is exactly what the town will

1:04:14pay for.

1:04:14>> Wow.

1:04:15>> And this is what they won't.

1:04:17>> Yeah. And so and then the rest is on me.

1:04:18If I want to get fancy Nancy,

1:04:21>> then I can pay for it.

1:04:22>> And further in this document, we'll get

1:04:24to that kind of specificity of pdeiums

1:04:27and you know what qualifies as travel

1:04:30expenses. I mean, at a threshold of 500,

1:04:33we all know if it's out of state travel,

1:04:36you're triggering that immediately. You

1:04:38[laughter] can barely get a single hotel

1:04:39room or a roundtrip uh airfare for $500.

1:04:44So, I mean, I think automatically

1:04:47If we were to set the threshold plus or

1:04:49minus $500,

1:04:51out of area travel is going to trigger

1:04:53it immediately.

1:04:55>> And so I think it would come into play

1:04:59more

1:05:01or it, you know, again for like these

1:05:04more ordinary local conference

1:05:07registrations

1:05:07>> like hosting conference status. We don't

1:05:10want if we don't want that $275 to have

1:05:13to come before all seven of us to give

1:05:15the yay or nay. We just want it to count

1:05:17towards the allocation and be reported

1:05:19back to us in the reporting mechanism,

1:05:21but we don't need to take an official

1:05:23vote on it. That's sort of what the the

1:05:26benchmark is for.

1:05:27>> Do you envision these over 500 expenses

1:05:30being approved as part of the consent

1:05:32agenda

1:05:34>> the same way we would?

1:05:35>> I would.

1:05:36>> Right. I just I made that unless there's

1:05:38an issue which

1:05:40>> we all read the consent agenda and if we

1:05:41have an issue with it

1:05:42>> we can always ask for something to be

1:05:44pulled because I think that's a good

1:05:46mechanism to both show what we did spent

1:05:49and what we in intend to spend as well

1:05:52>> or you know what we did spend and what

1:05:53we intend to do.

1:05:55>> Yeah.

1:05:55>> So it's I think it's

1:05:56>> and and if we do a report that's perfect

1:05:58place to put it. You know, I went on

1:06:01this here's this is a staff report,

1:06:03council report on what they did.

1:06:06>> And like I said, paragraph or whatever

1:06:08you want to say.

1:06:09>> Yeah.

1:06:12>> But this is really

1:06:14>> Yeah.

1:06:15>> I'm going to this conference because I

1:06:17believe blah blah blah.

1:06:18>> So ask for like a brief justification,

1:06:22consent agenda or no?

1:06:23>> If if it's over 500, you don't want a

1:06:26justification.

1:06:29Yeah.

1:06:29>> Okay.

1:06:30>> I mean, there's what could you possibly

1:06:32put on there that I wouldn't look at it

1:06:33and immediately know whether it's a what

1:06:35it is or not? Also, I can Google it.

1:06:38>> Yeah.

1:06:38>> If you're going to the

1:06:40>> And to your point, if it's on consent

1:06:42agenda and it looks fishy or you don't

1:06:44know and you can't figure that out, then

1:06:46discussion.

1:06:47>> Yeah. I mean, if there's something on

1:06:48there, sister city's trip or something,

1:06:50I know what that is. I know the purpose

1:06:52of that.

1:06:52>> Does 500 feel rate?

1:06:55Too low, too high. That means every out

1:06:57of town visit is going to be triggered.

1:07:02>> So,

1:07:02>> I mean, it's just a matter of putting it

1:07:04on consent so everyone can see it.

1:07:06>> Yeah.

1:07:07>> And we're going to report it anyway.

1:07:09>> Yeah. I mean, these are essentially the

1:07:11same policy. One is just before the

1:07:13expense occurs and one is after

1:07:14>> after. Yeah.

1:07:15>> So, two opportunities to keep a breast

1:07:18of what

1:07:20for us, our colleagues are doing and for

1:07:22the public, what their council members

1:07:23are doing

1:07:24>> and what they're where they're spending

1:07:26it. Yeah, I think

1:07:26>> and again consent would always give us

1:07:29the opportunity to pull up for

1:07:30discussion and take a vote.

1:07:32>> Do we want every single overnight out of

1:07:35town to trigger it because 500 that's

1:07:37what will happen

1:07:40750 a little bit more reason or you

1:07:42could have a night in hotel in airfare

1:07:44and three meals in Orlando

1:07:48might be a lot less

1:07:51bananas. 500's really low. You can't go

1:07:53anywhere even for an overnight.

1:07:56>> Not even drive to

1:07:59let's say I drive to Charlotte and spend

1:08:02two night well maybe a night in a hotel

1:08:05with

1:08:06>> some meals. Yeah, that's going to be

1:08:08close.

1:08:10>> It just seems really

1:08:11>> Yeah, especially if you're like in

1:08:14downtown or something. Yeah, I don't

1:08:17know what the number

1:08:18>> and again we are just making a

1:08:20recommendation that the rest of council

1:08:23can disagree with anyway. So this is

1:08:25just sort of again, you know, a starting

1:08:27point. So maybe we say 750.

1:08:29>> I would I would only bump it up just a

1:08:31little bit so that there's also a little

1:08:32bit more evergreenness to this policy.

1:08:35>> Sure.

1:08:35>> 500 today is not going to be 500 in two

1:08:38years. We all know that.

1:08:39>> Yeah.

1:08:40>> And that brings me back to our meeting

1:08:44tomorrow night. How often should the

1:08:46policies we create be reviewed?

1:08:49>> I ask that question of council.

1:08:52>> I get to the policy. I'd be interested

1:08:54to see what everybody thinks.

1:08:55>> That's Do you want me to put that on the

1:08:57slides? Do we want to know or is it too

1:09:00early?

1:09:01>> And we'll offer that we review 143 after

1:09:04a new election each year at a council at

1:09:06a work session.

1:09:07>> Perfect.

1:09:08>> So that the new council

1:09:09>> is that a practice or a policy?

1:09:11>> I think we've done it two years in a row

1:09:12now.

1:09:13>> So it's a practice. Yes,

1:09:15>> that's how I know about it or I Yeah,

1:09:19>> if there were thing other things

1:09:20routinely review

1:09:29>> just a clarifying question my office.

1:09:32[laughter]

1:09:32>> Yes. Um, we would get a request from

1:09:35council to be signed up for something

1:09:37and then that's when it would trigger to

1:09:38go on consent is what you were thinking.

1:09:40>> And the onus would be on us to tell you

1:09:42whether or not it's above or below the

1:09:43750 threshold.

1:09:46>> Because it would be two different

1:09:49Oh, wait. No,

1:09:51>> we could think of that. I mean, yeah, it

1:09:53would be, "Hey, Jenny, I'm going to do

1:09:55this trip. it needs to go on consent for

1:09:56the next council agenda and it would be

1:09:59up to us to give you a little

1:10:01>> blur

1:10:01>> description of why we're doing it.

1:10:03>> We would just take your email like that

1:10:05way it stays in your words and stuff

1:10:06like that if you had it

1:10:09>> and it could go with

1:10:10>> like right now your report online says

1:10:12what was spent and then

1:10:15>> maybe it's not your words but maybe it's

1:10:17a copy and paste into that table we were

1:10:19making like

1:10:21>> what has been requested and what has

1:10:22been spent.

1:10:23>> Yes. and we would sign you up until the

1:10:26next day.

1:10:26>> Yeah. Okay.

1:10:27>> And probably the same document that the

1:10:29document like here's what's requested,

1:10:30we fill it out, here's the

1:10:31justification, then afterwards complete

1:10:34it um with we would complete it with

1:10:37what we spent, not you because it's

1:10:39>> well you don't complete anything now and

1:10:41we would just take your receipts, your

1:10:43email to go from that.

1:10:44>> Okay.

1:10:44>> Yeah. We wouldn't want to involve a

1:10:46form.

1:10:46>> Okay.

1:10:47>> Oh, got it. Okay.

1:10:48>> Yeah.

1:10:48>> So, I heard 500 750.

1:10:52I say we start we propose 7:50 to our

1:10:54colleagues and see what they say.

1:10:56>> Maybe they think it's crazy and it's too

1:10:58late. I don't know.

1:10:59>> Maybe they hate all this. [laughter] We

1:11:01spent a lot of hours and they're like,

1:11:03"No."

1:11:04>> Time check is 6:22.

1:11:07>> Moving on.

1:11:07>> Yeah. I think we just keep plugging and

1:11:09we'll see how far we get. I I had a

1:11:11feeling this was going to be meaty

1:11:14>> and mine can wait

1:11:15>> going to take us some time to get

1:11:17>> there. There's a lot of unpacking

1:11:18unfortunately with the cell phone stuff

1:11:20because it bleeds into public records.

1:11:22>> Uh so for the next one, we're basically

1:11:25already doing it. Jenny, would you

1:11:28rather this read that it's a little more

1:11:30specific that it captures sort of what

1:11:32we've landed on or is leaving it generic

1:11:34as like per policy established that we

1:11:38would report out what was on behalf of

1:11:39council? Yeah, I'm going generic.

1:11:41>> Generic. Okay.

1:11:42>> Okay. Well, look at that. Moving right

1:11:43along.

1:11:45>> Okay. So then we get into travel and

1:11:49I broke it into local and out of town. I

1:11:52mean local I really just put these

1:11:54conference admissions. I personally

1:11:57couldn't think of something else that

1:12:00would fall into quote local travel

1:12:03because we talk about local meals

1:12:05separately. So this isn't even you know

1:12:08again being invited to the gallon or the

1:12:10chamber breakfast or whatever it might

1:12:12be. Um, this is just local travel.

1:12:18Could you think of what else would

1:12:20qualify

1:12:22besides attending a conference in the

1:12:24triangle? And this isn't training.

1:12:27>> I would I wouldn't use the word

1:12:28conference because there's coalition

1:12:31lunchon and etc etc etc. Um, I would say

1:12:36something I would define

1:12:39local travel distinctly. For example,

1:12:46traveling to

1:12:48execute your duties outside of town hall

1:12:51within Wake and Chattam County, Wake

1:12:54Durham and Chadam, whatever. That is one

1:12:59kind of local and then that's probably

1:13:02going to be different than if I've got

1:13:03to go to Bunkham County or, you know, if

1:13:06we're far east or far west or something

1:13:08like that. So here, let's do this

1:13:11because this might be helpful because so

1:13:14that's local and then out of town.

1:13:18And the different municipalities here

1:13:21had different definitions of what was

1:13:23out of town. Um, some had a mile radius,

1:13:27some just said distinguished essentially

1:13:30between overnight and not overnight

1:13:32travel. I mean, that kind of leaves it

1:13:34up to you. I mean, I'm sure some of us

1:13:36would go to Wilmington or Charlotte in a

1:13:39day, you know, and back. And so that is

1:13:42not local, but it's also not overnight.

1:13:45>> Um, you know, so I mean, maybe this

1:13:48whole notion of local doesn't even

1:13:50really matter. I mean, we could

1:13:51practically just scrap local

1:13:55>> conference admissions

1:13:58um not requiring an overnight stay.

1:14:01>> Ah, I see what you're saying. Um because

1:14:05>> you don't wear this. I don't know

1:14:06>> if we look at so okay uh travel applies

1:14:09to any trip requiring an overnight stay.

1:14:12Expenses incurred in the course of

1:14:14traveling locally, eg mileage in a

1:14:17private vehicle are covered by council

1:14:19compensation and are not reimburseable.

1:14:21So just making clear that we're not

1:14:24talking about

1:14:27mileage reimbursement.

1:14:28>> Okay. So we could maybe

1:14:30[cough and clears throat] expand instead

1:14:31of just conference admissions, it would

1:14:33be conference and event or just

1:14:35something a little more catchall

1:14:37>> and then

1:14:38>> define what out of 10 means.

1:14:39>> Yeah, let's just keep going because

1:14:41we'll get to training, we'll get to

1:14:42meals because I mean a lot of this is,

1:14:44you know, maybe even artificial

1:14:46categories we're creating. Maybe some of

1:14:48them get combined. So

1:14:50>> can can I ask?

1:14:52>> So I spoke at the chamber group in

1:14:56Buffford. Mhm.

1:14:58>> Um, and

1:15:00I I could have stayed with my daughter.

1:15:03>> I didn't charge for travel.

1:15:05>> Mhm.

1:15:06>> Um, and this would qualify if travel is

1:15:08what we're recommending.

1:15:11>> Well,

1:15:11>> because I didn't even consider that

1:15:14travel.

1:15:15I mean, if you didn't travel as on a

1:15:18plane,

1:15:19>> then you I mean, yeah, if you drove in

1:15:21your own vehicle and stayed with family,

1:15:24then you didn't incur any expenses for

1:15:28either the town to pay for or to be

1:15:30reimbured.

1:15:31>> There's a hotel night in there and that

1:15:32comes out of my bucket

1:15:34>> if you wanted to. Yeah.

1:15:35>> Yeah. Mhm. And that would have so

1:15:38because the next one says allowable

1:15:40travel expenses either paid directly by

1:15:42the temp or submitted for reimbursement

1:15:45include registration, transport,

1:15:47lodging, meals.

1:15:49>> And that was pretty standard language

1:15:52across the other municipalities.

1:15:55>> That makes perfect sense. I I see what

1:15:57you're saying.

1:16:08So, let's let's let's keep going because

1:16:10we'll let all of the ideas maybe kind of

1:16:12percolate together. Well, we'll we'll do

1:16:16three minutes and then uh we'll pick up

1:16:19wherever we leave off tonight. So,

1:16:23then we get into pdeiums,

1:16:26>> meal pdiums. Um, and we had talked about

1:16:29having council PDMs just mirror

1:16:33precisely what staff's perdems are. Um,

1:16:37so that is one way to go. Um,

1:16:41the other municipalities

1:16:45basically did that. So, Chapel Hill

1:16:48has actual meal cost with receipts.

1:16:51Durham went with this sort of

1:16:53complicated

1:16:54uh formula of $25 a day plus 15% tip,

1:16:58but it was different if it was

1:16:59overnight. Pittsboro just did the GSA

1:17:02predium, which I believe Lisa, you said

1:17:04is what the town staff is.

1:17:06>> We do a PDM. I can't tell you if it's

1:17:08GSA or IRS or exactly where it comes

1:17:10from, but

1:17:12>> um no receipts are necessary. Okay. It's

1:17:15just if you're traveling, and this is

1:17:17for overnight travel, so it's not, you

1:17:20know, during kind of the workday travel,

1:17:21but if you're traveling overnight,

1:17:23>> and so that requires a dinner and a

1:17:25breakfast, but maybe you're home by

1:17:27lunch, so you don't get the lunch,

1:17:28right? But you get a So, it all depends

1:17:30on what your travel schedule is. Um, and

1:17:33then we have a form that we fill out and

1:17:35you know, I was I qualify for a pdeium

1:17:38for one dinner and one breakfast. And

1:17:40those numbers are whatever they are. And

1:17:43that's the employee gets um gets paid

1:17:45that.

1:17:46>> Okay.

1:17:46>> Yeah. No receipts necessary. Makes it

1:17:48simple.

1:17:48>> And so it sounds like our policy is like

1:17:51a lot of policies that I saw that first

1:17:53day and last day of travel

1:17:55>> qualifies a little bit differently,

1:17:56>> right? Depending on what time you leave,

1:17:58what time you get back. Yes.

1:17:59>> Okay,

1:18:00>> that's reasonable.

1:18:00>> So I mean to me that's like a why

1:18:02reinvent the wheel for something

1:18:04particular to council when we have a

1:18:08staff policy. That sounds

1:18:09>> and I believe that that is also one of

1:18:12the procedures that um staff is looking

1:18:14at as part of our work on the dashboard

1:18:18items.

1:18:18>> And so if there's changes to that, you

1:18:21know, they could stay in line with each

1:18:23other, council and staff.

1:18:24>> That'd be something that would be easy

1:18:25for you to send to us that language.

1:18:28>> I can send you the current one, but

1:18:30again, I like I believe it's being

1:18:31worked on.

1:18:32>> Okay.

1:18:33>> Okay.

1:18:36>> Okay.

1:18:37>> Do you want to stop here?

1:18:39rather than start another one. It's 6:30

1:18:41and I wouldn't mind going over except

1:18:42for

1:18:43>> my meeting starts now. N completely

1:18:46gonna be late.

1:18:47>> This this is good. I did not expect for

1:18:49us to get through this in a single

1:18:51meeting. I think we're likely when we

1:18:54reconvened and revisit this again. You

1:18:56know, maybe you've had time to sleep on

1:18:57it and it's like, oh, actually, you

1:18:58know, I'm thinking about this a little

1:19:00bit differently. So, we'll just

1:19:02>> keep chipping away at this one. I'm

1:19:04gonna reread it, too, because I had our

1:19:05last conversation in my head and I

1:19:08>> Yeah,

1:19:09>> but we made really good progress because

1:19:11we're coming to our colleagues tomorrow

1:19:13with some

1:19:14>> Yes. And if you'll just read the cell

1:19:16phone stuff because it it I got really

1:19:18hung up on public records.

1:19:20>> You did. And you may not need to. It's

1:19:23really two separate questions.

1:19:24>> And I would also volunteer that we have

1:19:27a very thorough public records policy

1:19:29that's not mentioned here.

1:19:30[clears throat] So,

1:19:30>> and Oh, yeah. No, no policy. We have

1:19:33several different policies that also

1:19:35work in the solution.

1:19:37>> Yeah,

1:19:37>> tell me about those.

1:19:39>> Completely understand that. But I think

1:19:42we as a council should discuss our

1:19:45responsibility in the public records

1:19:48process.

1:19:48>> Yes. And I love doing this. Absolutely.

1:19:51>> And so that people understand that we're

1:19:53not just lazy, right? that this really

1:19:56is it's a it's there's a lot to keep

1:19:59track of and we're pretty diligent about

1:20:01it, but I think there's

1:20:02>> it was very difficult to divorce the two

1:20:05>> things completely. There is a way to do

1:20:07it.

1:20:07>> Yeah.

1:20:08>> But we need to talk through the whole

1:20:09thing I think before we can get there.

1:20:12>> Yeah.

1:20:12>> Okay. Thank you. We'll reconvene next

1:20:15week. Same time, same station.

1:20:18Thank you.