2026-09-15 - Legislative Approvals and Acquisitions Committee

01:22All right. Good morning, everyone.

01:24Welcome to the Committee on Legislative

01:25Approvals and Acquisitions. Today is

01:28September 15th. It is now 11:08 a.m.

01:33Here today, present in chambers, we have

01:34council member Kagiada,

01:37Council Member Onishi, Council Member

01:39Naba, Council Member Viegas, Council

01:41Member Galima, and I don't see Coun Oh,

01:46yep. There's You're blending into the

01:48chair, James. Yeah, take your jacket

01:49off. I can't see you. We have Council

01:52Member James Houston who's just in Kona.

01:54I'm Council Member Heather Kimell, chair

01:56of this committee. Mr. Mr. Clerk, do we

01:59have any testimony from the public?

02:02>> Thank you, Madame Chair. We do have a

02:05number of testifiers here in the Hilo

02:07Chamber as well as via Zoom and I

02:10believe one testifier at our YEA remote

02:12site. So, at this time, what I'll do is

02:15I'll start with our Zoom testifiers,

02:16then we'll go to Yimea, and then we'll

02:19come back to Hilo, and then we'll

02:20continue that rotation until we've

02:22exhausted all our testifiers. With that

02:24being said, our first testifier via Zoom

02:27is Donald Thomas testifying on Bill 186

02:30to be followed by Alex Lancaster.

02:34Don, if you are ready to begin your

02:36testimony, if you could unmute yourself,

02:39introduce yourself, and then you'll have

02:40three minutes for Bill 186.

02:43>> Okay. Thank you. Can you hear me?

02:45>> Yes, we can.

02:46>> Yes. Uh my name is Don Thomas. I uh work

02:49at the University of Hawaii and um Let

02:53me see you turn that on.

02:56Uh I have have been uh conducting

03:00groundwater research here in Hawaii for

03:02actually going on now 50 years and uh

03:06have done work uh in uh several parts of

03:10the Big Island uh as well as on Aahu.

03:13And I guess to be very brief, you have

03:16my written testimony. Uh what I found is

03:19that that their current conceptual model

03:22for groundwater and how groundwater is

03:25stored, how it moves through the island

03:27uh is is very incomplete. Um the

03:32conventional model says that we have a

03:33single basil lens. Uh we drill into that

03:36basil lens and withdraw water from it.

03:39And um sort of the sustainable yields

03:42that are used by seaworm are based on

03:45that model. Uh what I found is uh I've

03:49drilled uh several bore holes and and uh

03:52what I found is in fact that the the

03:54groundwater is moving through the island

03:58in multiple layers and uh we have found

04:03this we first discovered it in Hilo. Uh

04:06there's a about a 450 foot thick aquifer

04:10uh at about 1,200 ft below sea level and

04:14that water's coming from Monaca uh not

04:17Monoloa as the uh seaworm map shows. Uh

04:22we've also found this in the Kaho

04:25aquifer where uh the Kaho aquifer

04:30uh as as outlined you have a very thin

04:33basil lens there but underlying that is

04:36another aquifer that is coming from the

04:40Kaikua

04:42uh aquifer sector area

04:45and with respect to the the current

04:49proposal that you're considering Um we

04:53have not done

04:55detailed work there but uh what we have

05:00seen strongly indicates that that same

05:03process is going on uh that there is is

05:06water exchange uh between the uh the the

05:11uh ano hoalu

05:14um aquifers.

05:17We don't we don't know how deep it is

05:19but uh what we have seen

05:21>> 30 seconds.

05:22>> Okay. Um we've seen uh deep offshore

05:26water discharging which very clearly

05:29indicates that there are deep aquifers

05:31out there. And this is all by way of

05:33saying that we really need to go back

05:35and re-evaluate sort of the sustainable

05:37yields as well as our our uh aquifer

05:41supposed aquifer boundaries because they

05:44really have no meaning uh scientifically

05:47in where the water is and what

05:49quantities of water are there or can be

05:52withdrawn. And I'll I'll close there and

05:54be happy to answer questions now or at

05:56any time later. Thank you.

05:58>> Thank you so much for your testimony.

05:59Chair, our next Zoom testifier before

06:01going out to Yimea is Alex Lancaster.

06:04Alex is requesting to testify on bills

06:07186 and 187. Alex, you'll have three

06:09minutes per agenda item if you clearly

06:11transition. If you don't transition,

06:13it'll be three minutes total. Please

06:15introduce yourself as you begin.

06:17>> Aloha, chair. My name is Alexander

06:19Lancaster.

06:21I am the founder and program director of

06:23Hawaii Livestock Management and the

06:25owner of Hawaii Oyster Company LLC. I am

06:28here today in strong support of Walo

06:30Green LLC.

06:32As Kanna and Pacific Islanders, we look

06:35carefully at large corporations coming

06:37into our island, especially when their

06:39development offer little benefit to the

06:41local community. But this project is

06:43different. Waloa Green brings together

06:46housing, agriculture, local employment,

06:49food security, community resistance. We

06:52cannot continue calling housing a crisis

06:55while delaying meaningful housing

06:57projects. This is not a luxury retreat.

07:00These approximately 400 multifamily

07:03homes are intended for local people,

07:05kuna, and working families. This project

07:08will give 400 local families an

07:10opportunity for safe, stable housing.

07:13Water is our most precious resource

07:16and must be managed responsibly. But

07:19providing water to 400 local families is

07:21not wasting water. These families

07:23already live on our island and need

07:25water every day. This development will

07:27use water for one of its most important

07:30purposes, supporting the health and

07:32stability of our people. Through my work

07:35with Hawaii Livestock Management and

07:38Hawaii Oyster Company, I have seen

07:40difficulties in the local in the local

07:42producers and non I'm sorry,

07:46I'm writing. I'm sorry, I'm a little

07:48messed up here. I got to go back. The

07:52state's housing study determined that

07:53Hawaii County needs approximately 18,900

07:57additional homes by 2027. Yet, less than

08:0010% of that need has been met. Housing

08:03remains limited. Rent continues to rise

08:05and local families are being forced to

08:07leave because they can no longer afford

08:09to live here.

08:11Combining homes, agriculture, land, and

08:14food systems facilities will create

08:16lasting opportunities for residents,

08:18farmers, and local businesses while

08:20strengthening food security and West

08:22Hawaii's economy. I hope to one day be a

08:25part of the production of food grown on

08:29this property with Aloom Farms.

08:32Thank you guys for having me.

08:36Mahalo for your time. Thank you so much

08:39for your testimony chair. At this time,

08:42if we could transition to Kendra and our

08:44testifier in our Yimea office.

08:49>> Thank you and good morning. In your

08:52council office today, we have Michelle

08:54Stefonic testifying in support for bills

08:58186.

08:58>> No, opposition. Sorry. Oh, excuse me. In

09:02opposition, let me clarify please. In

09:05opposition of bills 186 and 187,

09:10Miss Stefanic, you will have three

09:12minutes per agenda item. Please let me

09:14know when you transition so we can reset

09:17your time.

09:23Really, is that a message to me to start

09:25over?

09:28>> No, Kendra, you guys are fine.

09:30>> Oh, okay. Sorry. I had a message across

09:32the screen that requested that I start

09:34over. Miss Stefonic, you will have three

09:37minutes perg agenda item. Please let me

09:39know when you transition so we can reset

09:41your time. And if you do not clearly

09:44transition, then you'll have three

09:46minutes total. Please reintroduce

09:48yourself before you begin by stating

09:50your first and last name. Mahalo.

09:55We ready? You're ready. Aloha, chair and

09:58council members. My name is Michelle

10:00Stefonic and I would I live in Waloa

10:03village. I oppose bill 186 which would

10:06change land from agriculture to urban

10:09for Waloa greens projects. Before

10:11allowing that change, the county needs

10:13to demonstrate that the infrastructure

10:15can protect both the people already

10:17living here and those who would be

10:19moving into this new development. The

10:21county's 2008 South Cohalla Community

10:24Development Plan identifies a second

10:26access road for Waloa Village as a quote

10:29very high priority. 18 years later,

10:32we're still asking for that same

10:34permanent second road. During the 2021

10:37Mono Road fire evacuation, residents

10:39reported waiting more than an hour in

10:42traffic. That experience demonstrates

10:44the difficulty of evacuating the

10:47community we already have. Please

10:50consider the combined evacuation needs

10:52for our existing residents and everyone

10:55who would be added through the Waloa

10:57Greens Kama Ka Newui Waloa Heights and

11:02Waloa affordable apartments. All would

11:05depend on the same single permanent

11:07access road and currently the one fire

11:10access road we have. Each new

11:13development affects more than its own

11:15future residents. Additional vehicles

11:17would join the same evacuation traffic

11:20as families already living here. The

11:22question is, can the entire community

11:26reach safety in time? On August 25th,

11:29the state housing agency withdrew the

11:31environmental review exemption for the

11:33separate Waloa affordable apartment

11:35projects following concerns about

11:37evacuation safety. That action

11:40reinforces the importance of examining

11:43the combined impacts for growth before

11:46approving it. Completing a fulli fire

11:49evacuation study is only useful if it

11:51addresses the actual conditions the

11:54entire community would face, including

11:56the developments being considered.

11:58Please withhold approval for Bill 186

12:01until those impacts are adequately

12:04evaluated and a permanent second road is

12:07built and open. The county has already

12:09established the need for the second road

12:11in its own community development plan.

12:14Please make your decision on bill 186

12:17reflected that the plan required this

12:20the completion before additional homes

12:22are occupied. Mahalo for the this

12:25concludes my testimony for bill 186.

12:27Please reset the timer for 187. Go

12:30ahead. the opposition. I opposite uh I

12:33oppose bill 187 because additional

12:36housing should depend on adequate

12:38evacuation capacity and reliable access

12:41for the entire community. The Lahina

12:43fire investigation prepared for the

12:46state attorney general describes Waloa

12:49village as having I'm going to quote it

12:51here 100% higher risk than any other

12:55place in the US. Its comparison places

12:58Waloa wildfire risk above even Lahinus

13:01that deserves serious consideration

13:04before approving additional development.

13:06The county completed an evacuation study

13:09in July. However, there were some

13:11significant gaps in the studybased

13:13scenarios. It assumed Waloa road

13:16remained open in both directions. Yet

13:19during past fire evacuations, the upper

13:21eastbound portion has been closed. And

13:24although the study examined an eastbound

13:27closure separately, it did not combine

13:29that closure with an evacuation

13:32of the proposed second road. It also did

13:35not model the impacts if both directions

13:38of Waloa road became impassible.

13:41Please require analysis addressing fire

13:44related road blockages and specifically

13:47the combined evaluation evacuation needs

13:50of the existing residents and all

13:53proposed developments before further

13:56approving growth. The need for another

13:59road also extends beyond wildfire

14:01evacuation. A serious collision at a

14:04critical location could prevent

14:06residents from coming and going and

14:08delay firefighters, police, or

14:10ambulances. Reliable emergency access

14:14matters every day. The county should

14:16ensure essential safety infrastructure

14:18is in place before additional homes are

14:21occupied. We cannot continue to kick the

14:25kick the can down the road and assume

14:27somebody else will fix the problem. How

14:29can the county justify adding more

14:32residents before demonstrating that

14:34existing and future residents can

14:37evacuate safely? Please deny or defer

14:40Bill 187 until the necessary analysis is

14:43complete and a permanent second access

14:45road is open. If you proceed with

14:48approval, I respectfully request an

14:50enforcable condition that no certificate

14:53of occupancy be issued and no residents

14:57be allowed to move into this project

14:59until Waloa Village has a permanent

15:02fully functioning second road that is

15:05open to the public traffic. Our existing

15:07community needs reliable access today.

15:10Adding more residents makes it even more

15:13urgent. Mahalo for the opportunity to

15:15testify.

15:17Thank you, chair. That it concludes your

15:19testifiers in WA.

15:21>> Thank you so much to our testifiers. At

15:23this time, we'll come to our testifiers

15:25here in the Hilo Chamber. The first of

15:27which is Matt Chocker testifying on

15:30bills 186 and 187 to be followed by

15:32David Foster.

15:35Matt, whenever you're ready to begin,

15:37you can introduce yourself. You can turn

15:38that mic on by hitting the green button

15:40at the base. And [clears throat] you'll

15:41have three minutes per agenda item if

15:43you can clearly transition as Mr. Fanic

15:45did. If not, it will be three minutes

15:47total.

15:48>> Cool. Okay. Aloha, Chair Kimell, Vice

15:50Chair Onishi, and members of the

15:51committee. My name is Matt Hawker. I'm

15:53the executive director of Wildfire

15:55Safety Advocates, and I am speaking on

15:56their behalf for the first part of this

15:57testimony. I will clearly transition to

16:00some personal comments in the second

16:02half. Um, [snorts] you have our written

16:03comments both from the meeting two weeks

16:05ago as well as the ones that I submitted

16:07yesterday for our organization. We do

16:09not abandon any of the arguments from

16:11the first testimony. We simply have

16:12expanded it with new information that

16:14has come to light since the last

16:16committee meeting. I won't repeat all of

16:18the details within our written testimony

16:20that's extensive and it covers both

16:22deficiencies within this application as

16:24well as a number of suggested remedies.

16:26Rather, I would like to focus on a

16:27specific event that occurred in the

16:28interim between these two meetings. The

16:30Hawaii [snorts] Housing Finance and

16:32Develop Corporation, HHFDC, is a state

16:34agency that works to advance housing

16:36throughout the state. They have been

16:38working with a continental developer,

16:39Lincoln Avenue, to bring a new

16:41affordable housing project to the Makai

16:43end of Walo Village, very close to the

16:45active development led by Greg Brown.

16:47This development is planned to include

16:48approximately 329 units, less than half

16:51of what you see in the application in

16:53front of you today. [snorts] As is

16:54common on 100% affordable projects,

16:56HHFDC declared an environmental

16:59exemption on these apartments,

17:00publishing it in the environmental

17:02notice on April 8th of this year. Our

17:04organization wrote them. We had

17:06identified multiple hazards with this

17:08application. Um, and we wrote them on

17:10July 24th uh of 25th requesting that

17:13Dean um Minami, the HHFDC executive

17:17director, withdraw their environmental

17:19exemption. On September 2nd, after our

17:21last meeting when we all were in the

17:22same room, we received a letter that was

17:24dated August 25th from Director Minami

17:27stating that they withdrew that

17:29exemption. If they want to proceed,

17:31they're going to have to go back and

17:32redo the environmental review. and we

17:35don't see how that ends with anything

17:36other than an environmental assessment

17:38um and likely an EIS after that. Our

17:41understanding is that they came to this

17:42decision after conferring with both

17:44local state legislators and directly

17:46with the governor personally. We know

17:48this wasn't an easy decision. It is

17:50slowing down housing that is desperately

17:52needed. But it is also doing something

17:54more. It is an acknowledgement that

17:55barreling ahead without concern for the

17:57consequences is dangerous. It is a state

17:59agency agreeing that our concerns are

18:01valid and they are doing something about

18:03it. These are the exact same concerns

18:05we're raising with you on a project that

18:07is twice the same size, sharing the same

18:09road, and I urge you to follow the

18:11state's lead. Okay, one last

18:14professional note on this whole thing.

18:15We have retained legal counsel and we

18:17had a complaint drafted against HHFDC

18:20that we were ready to file. We're really

18:22glad we didn't have to file it and their

18:24advice has been worth every penny up

18:26until this point in time.

18:27>> That was my professional testimony. Um,

18:29now this is my personal testimony on

18:30Bill 187. I am now speaking um for my

18:34most important position as a father to a

18:37very young child. Um I am tremendously

18:40concerned about the physical safety of

18:42the vulnerable residents in Waloa

18:44village, the kei and the capuna. I am in

18:46no way affiliated with the school or the

18:48DOE, but I did hear council member

18:51Anaba's concerns about the capacity for

18:52the school to continue absorbing more

18:54growth during the last meeting and I

18:56share those concerns. Around 800

18:58children attend Wllo Elementary School

19:00and I have no idea what the overall

19:02capacity is, but I do recall hearing

19:04council member Anaba request a letter

19:06from the DOE verifying that it can

19:08absorb the growth. In the WLOA Greens

19:10testimony that they submitted yesterday,

19:13they discussed water rights and aquafer

19:15capacity at length. I did not see

19:17anything about the school in there.

19:19Perhaps a letter came through a

19:20different route and I haven't seen it

19:22and that's totally plausible. Um, but I

19:24would like to see that and have that

19:26flagged as an important issue um, for

19:27this whole thing. Finally, we've

19:29discussed the evacuation study a little

19:31bit already today. Um, but there was an

19:33interesting bit of dialogue that

19:34happened in that meeting related to the

19:35school that I think everyone should know

19:36about. At the July, it was the July 14th

19:38meeting. It was in Welo Village. It was

19:40hosted by civil defense and the mayor's

19:41office. And in this meeting, the

19:43school's principal asked the host if

19:44there were any plans to get the students

19:46out of the school in an evacuation.

19:50Within the study, it was explained that

19:53the school buses are kept in Kona, not

19:56in the village. If something happens,

19:58school buses have to get from Kona to Wa

20:00village. More importantly, they do not

20:03account for all of the students.

20:05Literally, within the evacuation plan,

20:07it says that about 175 of these students

20:09are going to have to be driven away in

20:11the staff members personal vehicles.

20:15That's the plan. That's the state of

20:17play in the school today without the

20:19extra growth. And again, perhaps there

20:21is a plan to mitigate this uh you know

20:23this extreme hazard with all the growth.

20:26But I haven't heard it yet and I think

20:28you all need to hear it too. And I

20:29really want to emphasize how we're not

20:31opposed to housing. It's a vital human

20:32right. But putting people, especially

20:35families with young children, in a

20:36dangerous situation is not helpful. It

20:40is simply setting the stage for a

20:41tragedy of immense proportions. And I

20:44urge this committee to take action today

20:46to prevent that future tragedy. Mahal.

20:50>> Thank you for your testimony. Chair,

20:52your next testifier is David Foster.

20:54Also testifying on bills 186 and 187.

20:57David, when you're ready to begin, if

20:59you could just introduce yourself,

21:00you'll have three minutes per agenda

21:02item. If you can clearly transition. If

21:03not, it will be three minutes total.

21:05Thank you.

21:06>> Okay. And which button am I supposed to

21:08push?

21:08>> Oh, seems like it's on already.

21:10>> All right. Great. Thank you.

21:14I I'll I'll call out 187. I hope I don't

21:16actually need more than three minutes.

21:19Uh good morning, chair, council members.

21:22Uh my name is David Foster. I'm a

21:25resident of Waloa and a member of

21:27wildfire safety advocates and I'm

21:29speaking in opposition to approving Bill

21:31186 and 187 today.

21:34I want to draw your attention to the map

21:37on the first page of the submission that

21:40the wildfire safety advocates made for

21:43this meeting.

21:45I've named this picture foreseeable

21:47consequences

21:49because it depicts the entirely

21:51foreseeable consequence of allowing all

21:53of this development to incur to occur

21:56within Waloa without a supporting

21:58community plan.

22:00These four areas on the map will double

22:03the population of Waloa. They aren't

22:06speculation. They are real. The red area

22:09has been in continuous construction for

22:11years with apartment and commercial

22:13development and they're going on right

22:15now. The blue Nanakai already has the

22:18first streets and houses with more

22:21coming and this only depicts the first

22:23phase. The area immediately north

22:27envisions a thousand or plus more. The

22:30yellow is your very own Kamakoanui

22:33affordable housing project. You voted 11

22:36million towards this project this year.

22:38You aren't observers. You are investors

22:41in the future fate of Waloa.

22:44And last but hardly least, Waloa Greens.

22:48All these projects are being bolted on

22:50to Waloa. They all converge on the same

22:54exact unchanged road infrastructure, the

22:57same K8 school, the same water supply,

23:01the same fire and and and police

23:03services, the same health care services

23:06of which we don't have enough,

23:09the same parks, the same businesses, the

23:12demands on those resources are being

23:15treated as afterthoughts.

23:17Judging each project individually

23:19obscures the fact that collectively they

23:22exert enormous pressure on a community's

23:24resources.

23:26As development accelerates, the moment

23:28when these re resources can no longer

23:31support demand draws closer. Yet there

23:34is nothing being done to address this

23:36issue. Not a single resource can be

23:39expanded overnight. They all require

23:41years of planning, investment, and

23:43execution. None of which is happening.

23:4730 seconds, please.

23:49>> 187.

23:51Drawing a road on a map doesn't build

23:54the road. Setting aside space on a map

23:57for a school or park doesn't build a

23:59school or the park. Wellserved letters

24:01don't drill wells and they don't ensure

24:04water security. I make no claim to being

24:07a planning expert. It would be better if

24:09subject matter experts explain to us all

24:11how these growth impacts will be

24:12addressed. That hasn't happened and

24:14there's no sign it will. I appreciate

24:17that this council is finally asking some

24:19of these questions of the Waloa green

24:21project, but they should have been asked

24:23and answered before this.

24:25You don't need deep planning expertise

24:27to see that current practices leave

24:29Waloa with too many unanswered questions

24:32and too much accumulating risk risk that

24:36will last for decades.

24:38Council person Viegas last time talked

24:41about making decisions that endure for

24:43seven generations. At the rate Michaela

24:46is going, we're going to be lucky if we

24:48can last two. This is not an argument

24:51against growth. It is an argument that

24:53the consequences of growth are entirely

24:55foreseeable and must be planned for. The

24:58council needs to direct the planning

25:00department, the mayor, who's ever smart

25:02enough to do this to develop an

25:04overarching regional plan for Waloa

25:07built with input from the community and

25:09key stakeholders. It needs to identify

25:11how essential community resources and

25:14infrastructure will scale concurrently

25:16with the growth you are approving,

25:19supported by concrete plans and

25:20commitments.

25:23Yeah. Right. Right now, it's almost as

25:25if the county is conducting some weird

25:26science experiment to see how much how

25:29much can be piled on top of a community

25:32before it's crushed by the weight.

25:35We need you to to take some

25:37accountability and help us as a

25:39community to actually have a cohesive

25:41plan that supports all of these projects

25:44that you're approving. Mahalo for

25:46listen.

25:50>> Thank you for your testimony, chair.

25:52Next testifier will be via Zoom. Keelani

25:54Flores testifying on bill 186 and 187.

25:58Colani, when you're ready to begin, if

25:59you could just unmute, introduce

26:01yourself, and you'll have three minutes

26:02per agenda item if you clearly

26:04transition. If not, it will be three

26:06minutes total.

26:08>> And I just ask for a time where the

26:10three minutes ends initially, please be

26:12notified as such. Thank you. Aloha

26:15council members and chair. My name is

26:17Eclani Flores and of the Flores case

26:20ohana and I just come before you as a

26:22community member who has concerns

26:25but one of the concerns is that this

26:27project is flying under the radar

26:29because very little community engagement

26:32or community awareness has been brought

26:33out about this. That's why you have only

26:35a handful of people here. I know the

26:37probably the applicant just touched upon

26:39a few committee members in Wolo but the

26:41Wola village most of people don't even

26:43know what this project is let alone the

26:44rest of the island here. So, one of my

26:47concerns is that there's a lack of

26:48information about this project and there

26:50wasn't any comm community intent to do

26:53community engagement awareness of what

26:54this whole entire project is about. I'm

26:57just calling upon the council just to do

26:59a simple action and the action is to

27:02defer. I'm not saying to oppose or to

27:05approve. I'm just asking to defer this

27:07project because there isn't significant

27:09data analysis and information that's

27:11available and there's certain things

27:13that weren't done in order to make a

27:15appropriate decision whether to approve

27:17or not approve this this project. It's

27:20part of the council's due diligence.

27:22When you talk about due diligence,

27:24that's what we're talking about due

27:25diligence.

27:26I provided written testimony previously

27:29the last committee meeting as well as

27:30for this meeting. I'm just going to

27:32highlight a few points that pertain to

27:34bills 186 and as well as transition to

27:36187.

27:38And what what brings to light is that

27:41the proposed Woloa Green LLC project

27:44brings to light that the county council

27:47and the county does not have updated and

27:50accurate information pertaining to water

27:53sustainability

27:54and the impact upon Hawaii's aquifers to

27:57make appropriate decisions at this time.

28:00Likewise, the Hawaii County Water Use

28:02and Development Plan update of 2010 is

28:06outdated. The data that was used for

28:08that particular plan was it used for in

28:112000. We're two decades later and the

28:14the sustainable yield for Y aquifer

28:17hasn't been updated in a plan. So we

28:18don't even the county doesn't even have

28:20a plan to follow that's accurate and

28:22updated.

28:24So the we come back down to one of the

28:26primary concerns that I have for this

28:28project is that do we even have enough

28:31water? Do we have enough water?

28:34And listening to the testimony of the

28:37applicant and his consultants last time

28:38they skirted around the issue. They

28:40talked about

28:40>> seconds for the first three minutes.

28:42>> They talked about Kho and other aspects

28:44having to do with water. Earlier

28:45testifier he talks about reaffirm that

28:49there has been no detailed studies and

28:52analysis pertaining to the Y manu

28:55aquifers. So those aquifers are

28:59determined the sustainability yield is

29:01determined by the commission on water

29:03resources and management. There isn't

29:06even a letter from them saying that this

29:08project would whether it will be on the

29:10capacity of the present aquifer of 60

29:13million gallons per per day.

29:15>> First three minutes are up

29:18>> if you transition.

29:20>> Thank you so much. So when we look at

29:22bills 187 as well it also has to do with

29:24water as well.

29:26So, one of the concerns is water. But

29:29even before you even get to the concerns

29:30about water, it's asserted that

29:35one of the things that's hasn't been

29:37done for this project is an

29:39environmental assessment. According to

29:42chapter 343

29:45of the Hawaii Revised Statutes, there's

29:47certain things that trigger a water I

29:50mean trigger an environmental

29:51assessment. And one of these things is

29:54has to do with project Bill 187. And one

29:58of the triggers for this is section

30:02343-5.

30:06It says an environment assessment shall

30:08be required for actions that and then

30:11quote one propose the use of state or

30:15county lands.

30:17There is a section in this project in

30:20particularly the bill 187 where there's

30:23a historic trail that goes through the

30:25project. There's a historic trail that

30:28according to the highways act of 1892

30:31which is still applicable to today that

30:33is stateowned property that is

30:35government property. If that is

30:37government property then it should be

30:40subject to our environmental assessment

30:42as according to law. There's other other

30:45sections in 345-5.

30:47Number four says that propose any use

30:50within an any historic site.

30:54That's a historic site yet there's no

30:56assessment of of it. There's mention in

30:59the planning department's recommendation

31:01and there's reference to this historic

31:03trail. So there's two things. It's an

31:05historic trail and it's governmentowned

31:07which means it's stateowned. Secondly,

31:10the also in the tree 343-5,

31:13it also states that environmental

31:15assessment is needed for number nine

31:18when they propose any

31:21power generating facility. So when you

31:25look at their map, the conceptual map,

31:27there's a couple things you'll see. They

31:29have a section in the conceptual map

31:31below and it's in the plan. They propose

31:34a solar generating energy facility. That

31:38over right there would trigger the 343

31:42assess environment assessment. Likewise,

31:44this conceptual plan, we have no idea

31:46where the trail goes through, but you if

31:49you're going to approve X amount of lots

31:51in the subdivision, how do we know

31:53that's not going through our state

31:54property is going to be impact?

31:55>> Give me seconds, please.

31:57That's why if you look at my testimony,

31:59there are certain aspects that need to

32:01be done to

32:04before this project before

32:06the county council can even make in a

32:08decision whether to approve or not

32:10approve this project. There's certain

32:11things that need to be done beforehand.

32:13And I thank you folks for the

32:14opportunity to be here and speak on this

32:16matter as a community member who will be

32:18directly affected

32:21by this and impacts with the Hime

32:23aquifer and through my traditional

32:25Hawaiian cultural practices. Mahalu law.

32:27Thank you.

32:29>> Thank you for your testimony. Chair,

32:30your next testifier is here in Hilo. Yen

32:32Wenfong testifying on bill 186.

32:42questions.

32:45>> Seems maybe we do not have Yenwin Fong

32:48here to testify. And

32:49>> uh really he he's here as a um member of

32:52the team on the on the application, not

32:55as a testifier.

32:56>> Ah, understood. And with that being

32:58said, those are all the testifiers you

33:00have this morning.

33:01>> Thank you, Mr. Arselli. Mr. Clerk,

33:07>> bill 186 state land use district

33:09boundaries map. by changes to

33:11classification from agricultural to

33:12urban at white koa south kohala Hawaii

33:14covered by t portion of tax p 68002016.

33:18This matter is postponed September 1,

33:202026. We have a motion on the floor by

33:22council Houston, second by council

33:24Kirkwitz to recommend passing bill 186

33:26and first reading and bill 187 draft to

33:28amend section 25814

33:31white village district zone map article

33:338 chapter 25 of the Hawaii County Code

33:362016 edition as amended by change

33:37district classification for residential

33:39and agricultural 1 acre and open to

33:41multiple family residential 1,500 ft

33:44family agriculture 1 acre agriculture 10

33:46acres and open at Waklua South Kohala

33:48Hawaii covered by portion of tax code

33:5168002016

33:53applicant wa green LLC area 14.86

33:5714.868 868 acres. Le plan commission

34:00forwards it recommendation for this

34:01amendment to state boundaries map for

34:03the request a change of zone which allow

34:05the applicant to develop a 400

34:06multi-unit multiple family housing

34:08complex with a clubhouse and related

34:09improvements. Properties located at the

34:11southeast side of Pua Mia Street

34:13approximately 10 ft south of its

34:15intersection with white road. This

34:17introduced by council member Kimble by

34:19request. Both bills were both bills

34:21postponed September one. This also has a

34:23motion to floor by councus. Second may

34:25council Kirk M recommend pass 17 on

34:27first reading because both motions are

34:30on the floor. You have to make a

34:31declaration of which motion is actually

34:34on the floor right now.

34:35>> Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Um to that end,

34:37I'm going to suggest that we um start

34:40with 187 as the main uh content bill and

34:45we'll start by um asking the applicant

34:47and their representatives to come up. I

34:49do know that you've shared some

34:51additional information with the county

34:53uh council. So, if you want to share any

34:55of that, I'll let you kick us off.

35:02[snorts]

35:07>> Well, it's still good morning. So, uh

35:09good morning,

35:11uh

35:15committee chair Kimble, Council Chair

35:18Inaba, and members of the council. Thank

35:20you for giving us this opportunity to

35:22come back before you. You know, before I

35:25begin, I want to apologize for my abrupt

35:28departure at our last meeting. Um, I had

35:32a return flight that I tried the whole

35:35day to change and I couldn't. Um, my

35:38wife was was also off island and I had

35:41two dogs that were unshaperoned at my

35:43house. I needed to get back to them. and

35:46um you know we're really grateful for

35:49the time uh that you gave our project

35:52and for the opportunity to answer

35:54questions uh during our last meeting. I

35:58also want to let you know that we

36:00recently lost a very important member of

36:02our Woloa green team. Kanani Atan has

36:06been uh with us practically from day

36:09one. She is joining the county of Hawaii

36:12to work on hurricane LA relief. We wish

36:15her all the best and we really thank her

36:17for her exceptional work.

36:20I think it's important to start by

36:22saying that you know this is not the

36:23same project that you considered uh last

36:26time. Um you know the comments

36:29suggesting that our projected water use

36:31would threaten the health of the Yimea

36:33aquifer forced us to re-evaluate our

36:36proposal.

36:38We discovered actually at the question

36:41that was posed by council member Kane

36:44Ali Kleinfelder, you know, he said, "Are

36:46you guys really going to need that

36:47amount of water?" And we looked at that.

36:51We talked to our engineers about it and

36:53they confirmed we overestimated

36:56the water use. Uh we made a mistake. We

37:00have a new uh detailed will serve letter

37:03from the Hawaii Water Company that

37:06projects 362,000

37:08gallons of water a day usage at full

37:11buildout. Okay. And that's a 72%

37:15reduction from the 1.29 million that we

37:18initially estimated um we needed. Uh you

37:23know, we had that old designation 1.29

37:2629 million for more than a year and it

37:29sort of sat on a shelf and uh you know

37:34water was not a question uh at that time

37:37that we were concerned with. So we were

37:38just very comfortable with the fact that

37:40we had this water um

37:44that you know could be available to us.

37:47Th this adjustment and new water

37:50conservation measures that we're

37:52agreeing to will ensure that Woloa

37:55Green's impact to the Yale aquifer is

37:58within applicable standards. You know,

38:00Danny will have a more detailed

38:02presentation, but it's important to know

38:05at the outset that our water plants have

38:07significantly changed.

38:10Yeah, Danny and I have been close

38:11friends for more than 50 years. And you

38:14know at this stage in our life um whitea

38:17green is more than just a development to

38:19us. You know we want it to be something

38:22um that everybody can be proud of

38:24particularly the big island community

38:27and we want it to be a model community

38:29that will serve wola families long after

38:32we're gone. You the idea is basically

38:35pretty simple. Give working families a

38:38place to live close to where they work.

38:40Give residents a path toward home

38:42ownership, produce and distribute food

38:46locally, preserve ecologically

38:49significant land, generate renewable

38:52energy, and make a meaningful

38:55contribution to the WA community. This

38:58is not a luxury development. We have

39:02approximately 400 rental homes,

39:05including our 135 affordable housing

39:09obligation,

39:10more than 200 agricultural home sites

39:13where families can build a

39:15multi-generational home, grow food, and

39:18put down roots, a food hub that connects

39:21local growers and food entrepreneurs

39:24with local families and markets. And

39:26we're putting real resources behind

39:29those commitments. W Koa Green will

39:32contribute approximately $10 million in

39:34fair share contributions and we're

39:37donating five prime acres on Woloa road

39:40for the county that they could use for

39:44various uses including a community

39:46center, athletic facilities, future

39:49school site possibly, or a resilience

39:52center for emergency relief. We're also

39:55preserving approximately 111 acres in

39:58perpetuity in partnership with the WOA

40:01dry forest initiative

40:04with public access trails, environmental

40:07education for kids and restoration of

40:09the dry uh native dryland forest. This

40:12easement will join and add to the 400

40:15acres already under their supervision

40:18and protection. And we have more than

40:21200 acres for renewable solar energy

40:23projects. The conservation easement and

40:26the renewable energy plans together

40:29account for more than 300 acres of all

40:32of which will not have a water demand.

40:36So when we call this Waloa green, we

40:38really really mean it. This is about

40:41living, working, growing, and raising a

40:43family in the same community. At this

40:45time, I'm going to ask Danny to address

40:47the water issue. Danny,

40:51>> before you go ahead, could I have you um

40:53introduce yourself?

40:55>> Yeah,

40:55>> my name is John Yoshimur. I'm with

40:57Michael Green.

40:58>> And then Danny, if you could fully

40:59introduce yourself as well.

41:01>> My name is Danny.

41:04>> Hello, council. My name is Danny Popkin.

41:06Thank you so much for having us back

41:08again and uh thank you for your public

41:10service. I realized after the last

41:13meeting what you all do and how hard

41:15this work is and how we have the

41:17community

41:18entering suggestions about this project

41:20and John and I really take this to

41:22heart. We spent four years in this

41:26community

41:27uh talking to a lot of people. We have

41:29met with Koala Village Association many

41:31times talking about our project as well

41:33as Kaloa safety advocates. We've met

41:37with um many council members here

41:39tonight. We've met with prior council

41:41members. We've met with Tim Richards.

41:43Met with two mayors. We've met with a

41:45lot of folks to come up with a plan that

41:47John and I feel is a really uh

41:49integrated, intentional plan that um is

41:53special. Um and that's really I think

41:57the big picture for us. And of course,

41:59we have this issue that came up last

42:00meeting about water and we'll address

42:02that shortly. Um

42:05we um I mean John went through all the

42:08reasons that we think this project's

42:09special. One one other one just to add

42:11is that the White Kaloa Dry Forest

42:13Initiative who is I don't know if you

42:15know all them but they're an amazing

42:16organization that literally abuts our

42:18property. They now uh control through I

42:21think an easement from the village

42:23association for about 400 acres of land.

42:26Um and the as Mr. Flores said the the

42:30actual apparent trail area that goes

42:32through was in a gulch on our property

42:34and the 111 acres is that sort of area

42:37that we're preserving as an open space

42:39as a conservation easement and our

42:42partnership with White Hoa Drive Forest

42:44Initiative is one where they'll steward

42:47the land, they'll reforest it. We've

42:49been big supporters of them since the

42:51day we showed up here. They've been here

42:53doing this for I think almost 15 to 20

42:55years. I don't know if you know but they

42:57have an afterchool program where they

42:58have 60 kids come there to learn about

43:00environmental education Hawaii cultural

43:05issues about the plants and the land and

43:07respecting it. And every year I talked

43:09to Jen Lawson they have approximately

43:12700 school kids that come there on field

43:14trips. So one of the biggest things that

43:16we thought was so important was to align

43:18and adjoin our property with that. Give

43:20them the 111 acres to control. And we

43:23feel that integrating the community

43:25together uh with these homes and

43:29apartments which will have a rent to own

43:30program so that people can hopefully

43:32start to own the properties maybe move

43:35into a 1acre lot as John said be a

43:37multigenerational family have a plot for

43:40gardening and perhaps raise an animal or

43:42two. Just feel like it all ties together

43:44so well and we spent a lot of time

43:46thinking about that. Um as you know this

43:50process is different than what I'm used

43:52to. As I said to you last time, my whole

43:54life I've spent uh restoring, re

43:57rehabilitating buildings so they don't

44:00go into a dumpster. John and I have been

44:01we joke we've been environmentalists

44:03since the 70s when we first met. We take

44:05it seriously. When the articles called

44:08us water hogs, we took that very

44:10seriously. So we'll talk today about

44:12that was a big mistake that was made on

44:14that water estimate. One of the

44:16interesting things about the process

44:18here is that folks, we have about 30

44:21plus conditions on our approval. And

44:24this is almost like John and I have been

44:25in high school for four years with some

44:27tough professors. And we're hoping if we

44:30gain support tonight with an approval,

44:32we're going to go off for four years of

44:33college. And we have a lot of hard work

44:35to do over the next four years to get

44:37this project hopefully built because

44:40there are a lot of approvals and

44:42conditions that have been put on this

44:43project and right and proper ones that

44:46we appreciate. One of the conditions

44:48that we've talked to Councilman Eustus

44:51about is water conservation [snorts] and

44:54uh there's an US EPA program that is

44:57called Water Sense. And Water Sense is a

45:01program that mandates not only low flush

45:03toilets, showerheads, sinks, washing

45:06machines, but sensors on your uh pipe

45:10that comes in, which and I have it on my

45:12phone. I use it for my house. It tells

45:14you when there's not only a massive

45:15leak, but when there's drips. And this

45:18program has a minimum 30% savings in

45:21water conservation. So, our hope is that

45:23our 362,000

45:25gallons a day will reduce down to about

45:27250 if that is successful. And the HOA

45:31and we and CCRs and conditions that

45:34we'll have on all the units will

45:36guarantee that there'll be great water

45:38conservation uh savings on this

45:40property. So, we're very proud of that

45:42and I think that's certainly an

45:43important part of uh what what we need

45:46to do and thank you for the last meeting

45:48because we were asked to study this,

45:50come back to you and and do whatever we

45:52can to change it. Um the condition B in

45:56our approval and there's 30 plus

45:58conditions and things we have to go

46:00through to after this meeting if we

46:02become successful. Condition B is a very

46:05important one. It basically says if

46:07there's no water there's no development.

46:09And what that really means is that John

46:11and I are totally at risk from the day

46:14of approval to whenever these projects

46:16are built that if the state if the

46:18seaworm were to put this project into

46:20designation, we would have to line up

46:23and argue that our project is maybe

46:25better than another one, better than a

46:26luxury resort, a golf course and what

46:28have you. We think at that point if that

46:30were the case and we hope that doesn't

46:32happen and we've talked to uh three

46:35hydraologists, one of which was Don

46:37Thomas who's here on his own time. He's

46:38an academic. He's studied this his whole

46:40life and some others that the um you

46:43know that there possibly is more water

46:45than the 16 uh 16 million gallons a day

46:49sustainable yield and that will be

46:51something that Seaworm I'm sure will

46:53study. They they declared that in 2019

46:56and I'm sure that will continue. But

46:57condition B in our approval which is

46:59what we're here to talk about our

47:01approval literally says that if there's

47:03no water we don't get a CO and we don't

47:05get plan approval. So we're at risk for

47:08that. We also have a letter will serve

47:11letter from Hawaii Water Service which

47:12is a very part important part of our

47:15approval process that John and I've been

47:17working on for over a year with Jeff

47:19Darrow's team that's been extremely

47:22great but also very uh challenging. I

47:25mean we've been through a number of

47:27iterations and work work with them to

47:29make sure we got this application right.

47:32But condition B is it says that if you

47:35don't have water, you don't get it. And

47:37Hawaiian Water Service is a requirement

47:39of our application. We have a will serve

47:40letter. We happen to have it with the

47:421.2 million gallons. We now have it with

47:44the 300. So um that they have plenty of

47:47water in uh this tariff district that

47:50we're in to supply water for us. Um and

47:53if we need to talk about that further,

47:55we can. Um

47:59so that's, you know, part of our study.

48:01I don't you know at the end of the day

48:02if chair Naba asked to uh bring I think

48:05Mr. Shyer here and we have folks if we

48:07need to to get into that sort of roundt

48:10discussion about seaworm and the greater

48:13issues the global issues of the aquifer

48:15and certainly they're really important

48:17and I appreciate so much learning so

48:19much about it in the last two weeks but

48:22um in my humble opinion I think the

48:24issue at hand is that we do have a well-

48:26served letter from Hawaiian water

48:27service we're 100% at risk under

48:30condition B that if we don't get it we

48:32can't do it um so that's something that

48:35uh maybe could be considered. Um I think

48:39that's pretty much the end of my thing.

48:41Uh and I thank thank everybody for being

48:43here.

48:47>> Okay.

48:50You know, before I close, I do want to

48:51acknowledge uh the WA uh WAS um wildfire

48:56safety um associates. Um you know, we

49:00didn't talk about fire until now. Uh I

49:03think you know our position has always

49:05been that the best thing we can do to

49:09prevent a problem is to be responsible

49:13land owners. And from day one we have

49:16tried to do that. We've um worked with

49:20the DOT to widen and improve firereaks

49:24on our property. We've worked with

49:26Waloid Dry Forest Initiative to create

49:29new fire brakes. Some of the fire breaks

49:32I think um were cited by the fire

49:36department as being very helpful in

49:38preventing a spread of the last fire we

49:41had um you know maybe two or three

49:43months ago. Uh there has been

49:46significant movement on the Kamakoa

49:49egress uh within the past couple of

49:52months. The state and the county have

49:54come to some sort of agreement. They're

49:55moving forward with that. the right of

49:57entry on private properties has been

49:59resolved and we've been told that that

50:02egress will be completed by the end of

50:05the year. So, you know, we're we're here

50:09to help. Uh we're going to try to do

50:12whatever we can to um get the um

50:16community safe, have some uh you know,

50:19emergency routes. Um, and you know, we

50:23commit to our our wild wildfire safety

50:26associates people. You know, we've been

50:27talking to them. Um, and uh, it's been

50:30very civil. Uh, we we want to help them.

50:34We believe in what they are saying and

50:37we we're going to do our best to um, you

50:40know, support them and and again, I

50:42think you know, by being responsible

50:43land owners, that's probably number one

50:46thing we can do.

50:51Yeah, you know, I'd like to share I I

50:53think in the packet we have this graphic

50:56here um like green community benefits

51:00and um you know I just like to again

51:03reiterate you know we're going to

51:05provide affordable workforce housing 1

51:08acre agricultural homesteads

51:11$10 million in fair share contributions

51:155 acres of land to the county food hub

51:19renewable energy devel- velopment,

51:21public access to more than 100 acres of

51:24open space, including trails and

51:26environmental resource protection.

51:28Um, you know, there's also been a number

51:31of testimonials that um has been shared

51:34with you and I just want to read very

51:37briefly from some of them. Alex Sue, who

51:40is the president of Aloon Farms, which

51:42operates on both Aahu and Kawaii, writes

51:47that the fact that this project is

51:49designed to put all of this in a single

51:51community alongside workforce housing

51:55who will be the hub's most immediate

51:57customers reflects a sophistication

52:00about how food economies actually work

52:02and I do not see that in development

52:04proposals.

52:06Rosanne Freighus of the Building

52:09Industry Association of Hawaii says WoWa

52:12Green will provide muchneeded workforce

52:15housing

52:16in in South Kohala, helping to create

52:20housing opportunities closer to major

52:22employment centers. The addition of

52:24approximately 400 multif family units

52:27represents a meaningful investment in

52:29the region's housing supply and supports

52:32efforts to retain the local workforce

52:34that is essential to the area's economy.

52:38And finally, comments from Jen Lawson,

52:41who's the executive director of Waloa

52:43Dry Forest Initiative. Waloa Green's

52:45approach to development in Waloa is

52:48forward thinking and demonstrates a

52:50commitment to community that we haven't

52:52experienced with other developers.

52:55You know, I'm really sorry we we didn't

52:56have a chance to talk to Mr. Florence um

52:59and really didn't have a chance to meet

53:01him until recently. But uh you know

53:04these are the kind of people that um you

53:06know we we have tried to reach out and

53:08and meet with as many people as possible

53:11and uh you know um

53:15we're we're also you know known people

53:18known quantities. So we we um you know

53:21ask people who have concerns or

53:23interests to please let us know. Um,

53:27unfortunately the way we found out is

53:28through articles that drop a day before

53:32our hearings that we're not able to

53:33sufficiently prepare for.

53:35>> I'm going I'm going to interrupt you

53:36right there because I I want to keep us

53:38moving. Um,

53:39>> yes.

53:40>> So, can we maybe stick to anything

53:43that's new information? Um, I appreciate

53:46all all of your outreach efforts, but

53:48I'd like to get into our deliberation.

53:50Thank you.

53:51>> I'll just close with this final thing.

53:53You know, Danny and I have spent years

53:55trying to create something special, a

53:57holistically integrated, sustainable

53:59community that that will make Woloa

54:01stronger for generations to come and

54:04provide needed local regional housing.

54:07We're asking for your support so we can

54:09finally get to work and build it. Thank

54:11you.

54:12>> Thank you all. Mr. Pepin, you had again,

54:16please keep your comments succinct and

54:18to novel material.

54:19>> Yes. Uh, thank you, Committee Chair

54:20Kimell, Vice Chair Onishi, members of

54:22the council. John Pippen, uh, planning

54:24consultant here today assisting Waloa

54:26Green. Wanted to touch on some, um,

54:29public testimony points that were made.

54:31Uh, Mr. Flores brought up environmental

54:33review under 343. Um, there are no

54:36triggers in our project. We've gone over

54:39this kind of backwards, forwards, and

54:40inside out with the planning department.

54:43Um, none of the alleged triggers

54:45actually apply to this project. Um, we

54:48do have a potential historic trail on

54:52the property, um, as been documented in

54:54the public record, uh, a June 5th letter

54:57from Na Alahel. We're we're happy to be

55:00working with them to find exactly the

55:03location, uh, survey and preserve the

55:06trail. Uh, it appears to coincide with

55:09the 111 acres of open space that we've

55:12already, uh, baked into the the reszone

55:14proposal. um no use is proposed of that

55:18land. Um similarly, it is a historic

55:22site but it is not on the national or

55:25Hawaii register of historic places which

55:28is what that trigger relates to. Um and

55:32then thirdly, the power generating

55:34facilities as a trigger in HRS 343 are

55:38for fossil fuel uh power generating

55:41facilities, which obviously that's not

55:43what we're talking about. So, um, none

55:45of these triggers, uh, apply. We're not,

55:47uh, proposing to use state or county

55:50lands or funds, historic sites or or

55:53anything of the sort. Um, and we've

55:56again gone over this at at length with

55:58the planning department. Um, with

56:01respect to Department of Education, uh,

56:03I reached out to them. I spoke with

56:06representatives, uh, of DOE

56:09yesterday. They were finishing up their

56:12um their letter which they said they had

56:13essentially no concerns, but they were

56:15going to update us on the capacity and

56:17forecasts for schools in the area. Um

56:21and and we spoke with council member

56:23Hustus about this at length, too. Um

56:26it's a it's a complicated uh picture,

56:28but uh we are expecting today to receive

56:32those comments um from DOE. No concerns

56:35from their perspective uh as they spoke

56:38to me on the phone about it. just some

56:40updates. Um similarly, I discussed with

56:44Seaworm staff um their potential

56:47presence at today's meeting virtually,

56:49they said they would uh work on it, see

56:52to it, reach out to uh council member

56:55Anaba, uh since I believe if I recall

56:58recly the request came from him. They

57:01they wanted to uh kind of make that

57:03connection. Not sure that they were able

57:06to fit it into their schedule. So, uh,

57:08we have been diligently at work and, um,

57:12look forward to to discussing and and

57:15your questions about the project. Thank

57:16you.

57:17>> Thank you, Mr. Rippen. Um, with that,

57:20I'm going to pass it over to, um, Chair

57:22Enabo who submitted a communication with

57:25another presentation. Why don't we take

57:26that up first and then we'll go into

57:28deliberations.

57:29>> Oh, thank you. I just want to make sure.

57:30So, regarding the water concerns, do you

57:34folks have you folks shared your updates

57:37on that?

57:41We have experts here that can further

57:44add to the conversation and we'd like to

57:46see uh this this presentation as well

57:49and their their testimony may still be

57:52re relevant. Their uh answers to

57:55questions that come up may still be

57:57relevant. Okay. So you folks are fine to

58:01proceed with this presentation.

58:06>> You know, that's entirely up to you. Uh

58:08council chair, we we

58:10>> My question is did you do you folks feel

58:12like you've addressed the water

58:14component as part of your introduction?

58:17>> Yes, we we do. We reduced our use, but

58:20just in case you want to have a wider

58:22discussion, we have some people here who

58:24can speak to that.

58:25>> Okay, good. Thank you. Um so in our

58:29packets and for those joining the

58:31meeting we have communication 1025.8

58:35um submitted

58:37by

58:39uh Dr. Sher and he's in chambers today.

58:43Um so I've asked you to come forward at

58:45this time and give us a just a brief

58:48overview of u the water source here.

58:53Um

58:55just so we have it sounds like the

58:58applicant has brought folks to talk

59:00about water. So we just want to make

59:02sure that we are getting a comprehensive

59:05non-biased opinion on the water use and

59:08resources available in this area. Um

59:14can you please start by introducing

59:16yourself?

59:18Hello my Kako uh council chair Naba

59:22chair Kimell vice chair Anishi um my

59:26name is Jonathan Le Shyer I was born and

59:29raised and reside on the island of Oahu

59:32for the last uh three decades or so. I

59:35have been working on issues at the

59:36intersection of water use and land use

59:39across the Hawaiian islands.

59:41>> Okay. Okay. And can you briefly describe

59:43your professional background and

59:45expertise specifically related to land

59:47use zoning and water development?

59:50>> Sure. Um I hold a bachelor's, master's

59:54and doctorate all in environmental

59:56studies. I wrote my doctoral

59:58dissertation on um the holy water case

1:00:01and how native wine claims and

1:00:03scientific information were adjudicated

1:00:05by the um water commission and the

1:00:08Hawaii Supreme Court. Um, in terms of my

1:00:10land use experience, I spent three years

1:00:12as one of the two Konamoku

1:00:14representatives on the Oahu Island

1:00:16burial council. So, dealing with burials

1:00:18in the context of development of Kokao

1:00:20and rail. I spent eight years on the

1:00:22state land use commission from 2018 to

1:00:2620 or 2014 to 2022. The last four years

1:00:29as the chairperson uh I teach have

1:00:32taught land use law at the William S.

1:00:34Richardson School of Law. As a employee

1:00:37for the Office of Hawaiian Affairs and

1:00:38as a consultant for the Department of

1:00:40Hawaiian Homelands, I've advised on land

1:00:42acquisition, management, and

1:00:44development. And regarding water

1:00:46management area designation, I was um

1:00:50deeply involved in the designation of

1:00:51the Nova Hawa surface water management

1:00:54area on Maui. Um the Lahina surface and

1:00:57groundwater management area on the

1:00:58island of Maui. the um un ungranted

1:01:03designation of the Kaho aquifer on this

1:01:07island as well as a pending designation

1:01:09petition for the white Anai aquifer on

1:01:12the island of Oahu.

1:01:14>> Thank you. Do you currently have or have

1:01:16you had any previous financial

1:01:18professional or consulting relationship

1:01:20with the applicant?

1:01:22>> Uh none whatsoever. I I know a couple of

1:01:24their subconultants.

1:01:26And have you been retained or

1:01:29compensated by Walo Greens uh regarding

1:01:33the matter before us today?

1:01:35>> No, not at all. Um I will note that I am

1:01:38a consultant to the Department of Pine

1:01:39Homelands and I actually think that they

1:01:41probably have concerns being that they

1:01:42have unfilled um projects with that

1:01:46drawn water from the YA aquifer or may

1:01:48draw water from the Yime aquifer. But I

1:01:50I bought my own ticket today. I'm just

1:01:52here on my own dime.

1:01:54>> Thank you. Just wanted to set the

1:01:55ground. um groundwork there. Can you

1:01:58please proceed with this brief

1:01:59presentation?

1:02:04>> Thank you very much. Um so I will keep

1:02:08this as brief. I want to move this as

1:02:10close as possible. Um I will keep this

1:02:12as brief as possible. Um I just have

1:02:14five um quick points I want to bring to

1:02:17you. First of all, just a a story from

1:02:20Maui, very recent. Why does this matter?

1:02:22an example from West Maui or Maui Kohana

1:02:25where we have a really great project

1:02:26ready to go except for the availability

1:02:28of water. Um to understand your

1:02:32responsibilities and the also the

1:02:34responsibilities of the commission on

1:02:35water resource management. I'm going to

1:02:36very briefly cover some water law

1:02:38history and then go into the water code

1:02:41and how it's constructed and

1:02:43particularly this one unusual part of

1:02:44the water code sometimes referred to as

1:02:46the Maui compromise because it was

1:02:49before the state legislature the Maui

1:02:51delegation that fought to have this

1:02:53bifurcated system of water regulation

1:02:56put into the state because they were

1:02:57worried or the state water code because

1:02:59they were worried about how that might

1:03:02impact pending development on the island

1:03:03of Maui. I'll then talk about what

1:03:05hydraological units are. So, how do we

1:03:07get a YA aquifer and how sustainable

1:03:10yields are calculated and then get to

1:03:12how do we get to this point where we

1:03:14have a project that has certainly been

1:03:16thought through and um has many

1:03:18supporters but we might not have enough

1:03:20water for.

1:03:23So in 2006, and this is before my time

1:03:25on the land use commission, the land use

1:03:27commission approved for Maui Land and

1:03:29Pineapple a project known as Pule Lewa

1:03:31much needed affordable housing just um

1:03:34makai of the airport in West Maui. And

1:03:38they specifically said, "Hey, we're

1:03:39looking at pumping and we're looking at

1:03:41sustainable yields and the two aquifers

1:03:42that are in this area, we're fine.

1:03:45There's no problem." But between 2006

1:03:48and when the project started to be

1:03:49developed um pumping increased in the

1:03:52Honokuay aquifer. This is a graph from

1:03:54the water commission's finding effect

1:03:56for designation of Lahina. And you see

1:03:58that the sustainable yield line is red 6

1:04:01million gallons a day and pumping

1:04:03started to exceed sustainable yield in

1:04:05that aquifer. One of the ways you saw

1:04:08the impacts of that was that you saw

1:04:10this in wells. The next two slides are

1:04:12wells that are actually operated by

1:04:14Hawaii Water Service. The same utility

1:04:16that operates um the water system in W

1:04:18Koa, the Konopoly P3 well was drilled in

1:04:212008. It started out with chlorides,

1:04:23which are salts, which you're trying to

1:04:25keep at a minimum at 62 parts per

1:04:27million. The EPA secondary standard when

1:04:31you taste salt in your water is 250

1:04:34parts per million. And you can see this

1:04:36as they pumped this well, they were

1:04:38stressing the aquifer and it started to

1:04:39climb up. and other wells in the

1:04:41aquifer. Um they actually shut them down

1:04:44because chlorides were so high. This

1:04:46eventually led to the water commission

1:04:49at the behest of the community of Maui

1:04:51Koana designating Lahina as a surface

1:04:54water and groundwater management area um

1:04:57a delay in housing projects and the

1:04:59director of the department of water

1:05:00supply saying for the pulle project we

1:05:02just we can't provide water for you.

1:05:06So we wouldn't want to go there. um

1:05:10water law history. So, two-fifths of the

1:05:13way through um there's whole year-long

1:05:16classes and semesterl long classes at

1:05:18the University of Hawaii taught in water

1:05:20law. I'll try and do this in 30 seconds.

1:05:22The basic idea is in ancient Hawaii,

1:05:23water wasn't private property bought and

1:05:25sold. Um and in the first laws of the

1:05:28kingdom, they took that understanding

1:05:29and put it into the constitution of 1840

1:05:31and to the Mahel. But then with the rise

1:05:33of the plantations, the large ranches,

1:05:36um, and the transformation of Ho's

1:05:38economy, the court started to treat

1:05:40water like private property that could

1:05:41be bought and sold. And that continued

1:05:43all the way until the early 1970s

1:05:46when a court case on the island of Koi

1:05:48between two sugar plantations, arguing

1:05:49over who owned how much water in a

1:05:51particular river, went to the Hawaii

1:05:53Supreme Court, and the Hawaii Supreme

1:05:54Court said, "Actually, neither of you

1:05:55guys own it. Water is a public trust."

1:05:58That len led to the 1978 constitutional

1:06:00convention formally declaring water was

1:06:02a public trust resource and the 1987

1:06:06adopt adoption by the legislature of the

1:06:08water code. The water code is long and

1:06:11kind of complex. I just want to

1:06:13highlight three parts for you in it. Um

1:06:15the administrative structure section

1:06:18creates the water commission. Seven

1:06:20people appointed by the governor

1:06:22confirmed by the senate gives them their

1:06:24powers. Part three is the Hawaii water

1:06:27plan, which is how we're supposed to

1:06:30reconcile water use and land use in

1:06:32Hawaii. And it's really intended to

1:06:34avoid conflict. When conflict can't be

1:06:36avoided, you have this Maui compromised

1:06:38part, the designation part of the code.

1:06:40Um, which has really set up a dilemma

1:06:42because this whole legal history

1:06:44established that the state and the

1:06:47counties as administrative subdivisions

1:06:49have this duty to protect public trust

1:06:51interest in water everywhere, but they

1:06:53only actually have the tools to do so in

1:06:56designated water management areas.

1:06:59This is the diagram from the water

1:07:01commission of the Hawaii water plan.

1:07:03It's composed of different components. A

1:07:05water resources protection plan

1:07:06developed by the water commission.

1:07:08That's where sustainable yields are set.

1:07:10A water quality plan de developed by the

1:07:12department of health. A state water

1:07:14projects plan. All the water that's

1:07:15needed for state projects like schools,

1:07:18DHL, other uses. An agricultural water

1:07:21use and development plan which says if

1:07:23you're going to plan for agricultural

1:07:24uses, how much water do you need for

1:07:26those uses? And then it all rubber hits

1:07:28the road on the county water use and

1:07:30development plans which are supposed to

1:07:31reconcile county zoning, county general

1:07:34plans with water that's available.

1:07:40The Maui compromise. This is a map of

1:07:43all the designated water management

1:07:44areas in the state. Blue means it's a

1:07:46groundwater area. Hashmarked is a

1:07:49surface water management area. The

1:07:51entirety of Koi, the entirety of Hawaii

1:07:53Island are not management areas,

1:07:54including also most of Maui, [snorts]

1:07:56Lanai, Kohave. Um,

1:08:00what's the difference for groundwater in

1:08:02a designated versus a non-desated area?

1:08:05Anywhere in the state, if you want to

1:08:07drill a well, you're supposed to get a

1:08:08well construction permit and a pump

1:08:10installation permit. Those permits are

1:08:12handled almost like construction

1:08:14documents. As long as they're

1:08:16technically correct, you have a licensed

1:08:17well driller, you get them. So all the

1:08:19wells currently in the Yimea aquifer

1:08:21never went through any sort of public

1:08:23process um that was meaningful about it.

1:08:26They just were permitted by commission

1:08:28staff. In water management areas, you

1:08:31also have to get a water use permit.

1:08:33Those permits have to be publicly

1:08:36noticed. People have the chance to

1:08:37testify on them, object to them, even

1:08:40ask for a contested case for them. So

1:08:42from the development perspective point

1:08:44of view, designation is very difficult.

1:08:48It can be slow. It can be costly. It can

1:08:50be contentious. It can add to costs for

1:08:53things that we wanting to build like

1:08:54affordable housing. On the other hand,

1:08:57in designated water management areas,

1:09:00there's transparency for the public and

1:09:02there's actually a requirement that

1:09:03applicants show that they're not harming

1:09:05the resource, that their uses are

1:09:07reasonable and efficient.

1:09:10So, how are areas designated? It can be

1:09:12done either by a petition from a

1:09:14community group or by the recommendation

1:09:16of the water commission part of the

1:09:18water code sets up the basic standard

1:09:21which is if the water resources and area

1:09:23may be threatened the commission shall

1:09:25designate. So it's an affirmative duty.

1:09:28There's also seven groundwater criteria

1:09:31listed in the water code that the water

1:09:33commission is supposed to consider. And

1:09:35one of those is whether an increased or

1:09:37wa of water use or authorized plan use,

1:09:40which means things you've already

1:09:41approved, may cause the maximum rate of

1:09:43withdrawal from the source to reach 90%

1:09:46of the sustainable yield.

1:09:51As a very very brief side note when the

1:09:53the land so

1:09:56state constitution was amended in 78. We

1:09:58thought it would take one year to pass

1:09:59the water code. It took nine nine

1:10:01legislative sessions of people beefing

1:10:03it out finally ending with the Maui

1:10:05compromise. One of the things the

1:10:07legislature did was they set up a review

1:10:09commission and said, "Hey, after

1:10:11[clears throat] this code has been

1:10:12implemented in a few years, please go

1:10:14hold hearings around the state and come

1:10:16up with recommendations for how to

1:10:17improve it." Their number one unanimous

1:10:19recommendation was get rid of the

1:10:21designation process. Just designate the

1:10:23entire state. People are fighting over

1:10:25whether or not we should regulate things

1:10:26when really we should be focusing on how

1:10:28do we regulate efficiently.

1:10:32I'm almost done. [snorts]

1:10:34Um so now we get to the part of the

1:10:37water code that defines hydraologic

1:10:39units and sustainable yields. And um Dr.

1:10:41Thomas actually alluded to some of this.

1:10:44Um the code says, hey, the Hawaii water

1:10:47plan, the water resources protection

1:10:48plan divide developed by the water

1:10:50commission staff divides each county

1:10:53into units that are supposed to be as

1:10:55close as possible to like a distinct

1:10:57hydraologic basin.

1:11:00Sustainable yields are how much water

1:11:03should be withdrawn in those without

1:11:04harming the resource.

1:11:07So this is the map from the water

1:11:08commission of Hawaii Island and how

1:11:10those lines were drawn. Those lines were

1:11:13drawn based on what they could see on

1:11:16the surface.

1:11:18So the separation between and Malo and

1:11:22all the other ones are based on like is

1:11:25there a chain of craters there? Um some

1:11:27cinder cones. Are they the correct

1:11:30boundaries or the incorrect boundaries?

1:11:34The purpose of drawing these boundaries

1:11:36is both to try and have distinct units

1:11:38but also to manage the resource and

1:11:41spread pumping. So the boundaries are

1:11:43what they are. There is a process for

1:11:45amending those boundaries um which was

1:11:48considered here and not acted on. Um how

1:11:52are sustainable yields are set?

1:11:54Sustainable yields are set by assuming

1:11:56and m Dr. Thomas mentioned this too

1:11:59assuming that the only water is fresh

1:12:01water floating on salt water and the

1:12:03whole thing they're trying to protect is

1:12:05salt getting sucked up into wells. So

1:12:06when you have fresh water floating on

1:12:08salt water and you start to pump it out

1:12:10the lens thins. So you don't want that

1:12:11salt water sucked up into your wells.

1:12:13They have a equation called the robust

1:12:16analytical model which is not that

1:12:17sophisticated. Basically they take

1:12:19recharge all the rain all the fog drip

1:12:22you can only pump 44% of that. Now this

1:12:26works based on a whole bunch of

1:12:28assumptions being true including

1:12:32recharge is even across the aquifer. So

1:12:34it rains just as much on the summit of

1:12:37Monaca and in the wet zone as it does

1:12:39near the coast, which we know is not

1:12:40true. It assumes all wells are evenly

1:12:43placed the exact same depth and pumping

1:12:46at the exact same rate, which is also

1:12:47not true. If all those assumptions are

1:12:49true, then you can get to that

1:12:51sustainable yield that they set.

1:12:54The Water Resources Protection Plan is

1:12:55that part of the Hawaii Water Plan that

1:12:57sets sustainable yields. It's been

1:13:00published three times, 1990, 2008, and

1:13:022019. In 1990 and 2008 they set the

1:13:05sustainable yield for 24 million as 24

1:13:08million gallons a day for the way

1:13:09aquifer. In 2019 they reduced it to 16

1:13:12million gallons a day and they did so

1:13:14because of better data on how much rain

1:13:16was actually falling in this area. The

1:13:18recharge.

1:13:21They did note in 2019 about the idea of

1:13:25we are thinking of combining Mahukon and

1:13:28Io Malu. Um and so they said these are

1:13:30provisional numbers. That proposal was

1:13:33mentioned to the water commission during

1:13:36adoption of the 2019 plan. They actually

1:13:38went forward and held another briefing

1:13:40with the water commission on it and held

1:13:41a public hearing on it and they never

1:13:43acted on it. They tabled that

1:13:46recommendation and the water commission

1:13:47has not been actively considering it.

1:13:49Now why did that happen? I'll give you

1:13:52an example from one example and this

1:13:55came up in the water commission's

1:13:56discussion and I was at this meeting in

1:13:592019. The groundwater staff who was

1:14:02advocating for this combination said,

1:14:04"Hey, look at this drawing uh this graph

1:14:07from Bob Whittier and it would looked at

1:14:09chemical signatures from different wells

1:14:11saying where is this water coming from?"

1:14:13And he said, "Hey, there's this data

1:14:15that shows that the well in Niho Malu is

1:14:18the same as the well in Himea." Well, I

1:14:21don't know. It's it's super clear to see

1:14:23on this slide, but they had one data

1:14:25point in Yimea. And so they were trying

1:14:28to say, hey, these two things are

1:14:29similar based on the data we have, but

1:14:31they didn't even have the data to do it

1:14:33um make that conclusion. And so the

1:14:35commission was very skeptical that the

1:14:37reason for combining these was not that

1:14:38they were the same source, but they just

1:14:40wanted to avoid the designation process.

1:14:44Something that has happened since 2019.

1:14:46So this is from a US Geological Survey

1:14:49publication that assembled the best

1:14:52projections of what climate change is

1:14:54going to look like across the Hawaiian

1:14:56Islands and how it's going to affect

1:14:58recharge. So there's three main

1:15:00scenarios

1:15:02and scenario A, B, and C. Of these, the

1:15:05best case scenario, end of the century,

1:15:08is that the Yimea aquifer has 1/3 less

1:15:10recharge. The worst case scenario is

1:15:1255%.

1:15:15That's not in any of that previous

1:15:18analysis from 2019. This data wasn't

1:15:20published yet. So I'm almost pow. How

1:15:23did we get here? As was reported in

1:15:25environment Hawaii after Pat Tumins did

1:15:27a UEIPA of that 90% trigger current

1:15:31pumping existing pumping 89.68% of

1:15:34sustainable yield.

1:15:37Now Hawaii County does have a water use

1:15:39and development plan. It's supposed to

1:15:40be updated every 5 years. The last

1:15:43update was done in 2010 and was adopted

1:15:45by the water commission in 2011. And

1:15:48when the water commission was reviewing

1:15:50that plan, they noted in 2015 that the

1:15:532010 plan had said, "Hey, two systems on

1:15:56this island need further focus. The

1:15:59Yimea system and the um Kaho system."

1:16:04They did note some really valuable

1:16:05things even when now keep in mind 2010

1:16:08the sustainable yield was 24 mgd for ya

1:16:11and they still said hey we think we see

1:16:12a problem ahead and they said you know

1:16:15what we should do demand side

1:16:17conservation programs we should identify

1:16:19areas where potable water consumption

1:16:21can be reduced or replaced. So that was

1:16:24officially in the plan that was adopted

1:16:25including by this body. Um

1:16:29the water commission asked them to do

1:16:31those focused plans, one for Waya and

1:16:33one for Kaho. At their February 18th,

1:16:362015 meeting, the first step is to

1:16:38approve a project description. The

1:16:40department of water supply presented

1:16:41that to the water commission adopted it

1:16:44and said, "Okay, come to us with your

1:16:46first report on May 15th." On May 19th

1:16:48of that year, the county said, "Can we

1:16:50separate Kaho and Himea?" And they put

1:16:53out separate schedules for that. that

1:16:55was approved by the water commission on

1:16:56August 17th. There may have been

1:16:58progress since then, but I have not seen

1:17:00anything in the official record that any

1:17:02progress was made to do a specific um

1:17:05plan for Yimea since 2015.

1:17:10I'll just note the recently adopted 2045

1:17:12position um general plan has a couple of

1:17:15very applicable policies about how to do

1:17:17this. um listening to the um project

1:17:20proponents um presentation today.

1:17:23They're actually considering applying

1:17:25some of these ideas to their

1:17:27development. That's it. I know this was

1:17:29a lot of information particularly right

1:17:32before lunch. So I apologize for that.

1:17:34Um but I just want to hopefully can

1:17:37answer some of your questions. I just

1:17:39reviewed the example from Maui. Um how

1:17:43water law history works and how that

1:17:44defines your public trust duties. what

1:17:46the Maui compromise was, how we set

1:17:48these units and sustainable yields, and

1:17:50then how did we get here? How did we get

1:17:51here when we have a project that like

1:17:53might have a lot of value to it, but

1:17:55yikes, do we have enough water for it?

1:17:57Mahalui.

1:17:58>> Thank you very much um for that

1:18:00comprehensive presentation. Um

1:18:04again I did ask him to be here today um

1:18:08to provide a non-bias opinion expert

1:18:13opinion on water resources available in

1:18:16the area and I understand that uh the

1:18:19applicants have um some of their own

1:18:22experts here as well but if anyone has

1:18:24questions uh invite them to ask now in

1:18:28case uh he needs to head out as

1:18:32model.

1:18:33>> Thank you, council member. Uh over to

1:18:35you, council member county claner.

1:18:37>> Thank you.

1:18:38>> No, chair.

1:18:41>> Oh, sorry,

1:18:42>> council member Eustace.

1:18:44>> I reserve the right as the maker of the

1:18:46motion to begin debate.

1:18:50>> I will acknowledge your uh premacy in

1:18:54the debate process here as the maker of

1:18:56the motion. Um Mr. Mr. County Lee

1:18:58Clanfelder if you're all right with

1:18:59that. Go ahead, Council Member Eustace.

1:19:02>> Thank you, Chair. I appreciate that. I

1:19:04first want to begin thanking everyone

1:19:05who's continued to participate in the

1:19:06discussion. Um, and I appreciate the

1:19:09time residents, community organizations,

1:19:11the applicant, our agencies have taken

1:19:13to engage with these measures. Um, you

1:19:15know, much much of the testimony

1:19:16reflects the attention that I think we

1:19:18all recognize.

1:19:19Hawaii Island needs housing, including

1:19:21housing that local working families can

1:19:23afford. At the same time, residents are

1:19:25asking legitimate questions about

1:19:26whether growth can occur safely and

1:19:28responsibly given white collo's existing

1:19:30infrastructure challenges, wildfire

1:19:32risk, evacuation constraints, water

1:19:35resources, schools, and other community

1:19:37needs. I do not think that these

1:19:39concerns are fundamentally opposed to

1:19:41one another. The question before is

1:19:43whether growth can occur responsibly

1:19:45with appropriate protection for the

1:19:46community and appropriate mitigation of

1:19:49the impacts created by this development.

1:19:51I also think it's important to recognize

1:19:53that bill 187 before us here has changed

1:19:56significantly throughout this process.

1:19:58At our previous meeting, we adopted a

1:20:00new wildfire resilience condition

1:20:02requiring this development to achieve

1:20:03and maintain compliance with Fire Wise

1:20:05USA principles or an equivalent county

1:20:08approved wildfire resilience plan. I

1:20:10believe that is an important and

1:20:12precedent setting step for Hawaii County

1:20:15because it expressly recognizes the

1:20:17wildfire risk within a reszone approval

1:20:19and requires resilience to be

1:20:21incorporated into the design and

1:20:23long-term maintenance of a new community

1:20:24from the outset. In an area where we all

1:20:27know wildfire risk is significant, we

1:20:29should be thinking about defensible

1:20:31spaces, vegetation management, home

1:20:34hardening, emergency preparedness, and

1:20:36long-term maintenance while communities

1:20:38are being designed, not years to come

1:20:41when houses already been built. I also

1:20:44want to be clear about what the

1:20:45condition does and does not accomplish.

1:20:47Those measures can reduce Wi-Fi risk

1:20:49within the development, but they do not

1:20:50eliminate the WO broader evacuation

1:20:53challenge. Those are separate but

1:20:55related responsibilities.

1:20:57I do recognize the request that

1:20:58additional development should be not

1:21:00should not move forward until a

1:21:01permanent second road is funded and

1:21:02constructed. I understand the basis for

1:21:05that position.

1:21:06While I defer that is not I do not

1:21:09believe every long-standing regional

1:21:10infrastructure deficiency can

1:21:12automatically be assigned to one project

1:21:14particularly where the proposed regional

1:21:16roadway is not directly connected or to

1:21:19or primarily serving that property. What

1:21:21I do believe is that appropriate is

1:21:23requiring this development to

1:21:24demonstrate that its residents can be

1:21:26safely accommodated, that its access and

1:21:28emergency planning are appropriate, that

1:21:30the impacts attributable to this

1:21:31development are adequately mitigated. At

1:21:33the same time, the county has a

1:21:35responsibility to continue advancing

1:21:37broader evacuation and transportation

1:21:39infrastructure that Wolo needs.

1:21:42We also adopted a stronger drainage and

1:21:44flood mitigation condition. That

1:21:46amendment reflects the information that

1:21:48we have now in the South Kala flood

1:21:50study and requires greater consideration

1:21:52of upstream and off-site runoff,

1:21:54existing drainage patterns, downstream

1:21:56impacts, and appropriate mitigation as

1:21:58the project moves forward. I think

1:22:00there's an important principle there as

1:22:02well. When better information becomes

1:22:03available about the hazards facing a

1:22:05property or the surrounding community,

1:22:07our land use decision should reflect

1:22:08that information. We also strengthen

1:22:11affordable housing provisions.

1:22:12Affordable housing should not simply be

1:22:14something promised at the end of a long

1:22:15development timeline, but move forward

1:22:17along with the rest of the project.

1:22:19Taken together, these amendments have

1:22:20materially strengthened Bill 187,

1:22:22establish clearer and more enforceable

1:22:24expectations about wildfire resilience,

1:22:26flood mitigation, and affordable

1:22:27housing. They also demonstrate that the

1:22:29legislative process can respond

1:22:31meaningfully to community me concerns

1:22:33rather than simply moving a proposal

1:22:34forward exactly as submitted.

1:22:37Throughout this process, my focus has

1:22:39been on finding a reasonable middle

1:22:40ground, not by minimizing the concerns

1:22:42raised by residents, but by identifying

1:22:44that we can appropriately address

1:22:45through this resone and what requires

1:22:47broader county action. Hawaii has a

1:22:49significant housing and cost of living

1:22:51challenge. I do believe we can simp we

1:22:53cannot simply say no to every project

1:22:55that comes before us. At the same time,

1:22:57growth has to occur responsibly.

1:22:59[snorts]

1:23:00Our [clears throat]

1:23:02responsibility is to require that this

1:23:04project to address the impact it

1:23:06creates, strengthen protections where

1:23:07appropriate and continue doing our part

1:23:09as a county to address larger regional

1:23:11challenges in the community facing W

1:23:13Koa. I appreciate everyone taking the

1:23:14time to testify.

1:23:17I think we many of ultimately asking us

1:23:20the same thing that growth can be

1:23:21thoughtful that safety and

1:23:22infrastructure matter and the decisions

1:23:24we make today leave White strong in the

1:23:26future. This is a standard that I have

1:23:28tried to apply throughout this process

1:23:30and a standard I will continue to apply.

1:23:32With that chair, I move to amend bill

1:23:35187 draft 2 with the contents of

1:23:37communication 1025.11.

1:23:42>> Motion by council member Husta, seconded

1:23:44by council member Lima to amend bill 187

1:23:48with the contents of 1025.10.

1:23:53No, one one. Thank you.

1:23:58>> Go ahead on the amendment.

1:24:00>> Thank you, chair. As as we've discussed

1:24:03and as was shared recently from

1:24:05testimony in the presentation, you know,

1:24:07water was is one of the most significant

1:24:09issues raised during our previous

1:24:11discussion and has continued to be a

1:24:12major concern in the testimony that we

1:24:14received. You know, since our last

1:24:16meeting, the applicant has provided

1:24:17additional information, including

1:24:19updated will serve letter, a revised

1:24:21estimated reducing projected paddle

1:24:23water demand from approximately 1.29 29

1:24:25million gallons a day to about 362,000

1:24:28gallons per day. I appreciate the

1:24:30additional work that has gone into

1:24:32refining those numbers and identifying

1:24:33opportunities to reduce potable water

1:24:35use particularly for a and irrigation

1:24:38needs. But regardless of that final

1:24:40demand number, I think there's a broader

1:24:43principle that is important for us to

1:24:44establish

1:24:46when we approve significant new

1:24:47development, especially in a new area

1:24:49where water availability and

1:24:50sustainability are generally community

1:24:53concerns. I do think our responsibility

1:24:55ends with determining whether water can

1:24:57be supplied. We should also be seeking

1:24:59how effectively and efficiently that

1:25:01water will be used.

1:25:03This amendment would require the

1:25:04applicant to prepare and implement a

1:25:06water conservation plan as the project

1:25:08develops. For the residential portions

1:25:10of the project, it establishes a goal of

1:25:12reducing projected pot water use by at

1:25:14least 30% compared to typical new

1:25:17residential construction using the EPA

1:25:20water sense specification for homes as

1:25:23that benchmark. It does not require a

1:25:26formal certification.

1:25:28The amendment also recognizes that

1:25:30agriculture and other non-residential

1:25:32water uses are different and for those

1:25:34areas, it emphasizes efficiency and the

1:25:37use of alternative or non-pottable water

1:25:39sources where feasible and permitted. I

1:25:42want to emphasize that this amendment is

1:25:43not intended to resolve the larger

1:25:44questions surrounding the aquifer or

1:25:46sustainable yield. Those questions

1:25:48deserve their own technical discussion

1:25:50and I'm grateful for the presentation

1:25:52here today. This amendment addresses

1:25:54something much more directly within the

1:25:55control of the applicant. how

1:25:57responsibly the water allocated for this

1:25:59development is used.

1:26:02Water is limited. It is precious and

1:26:04conservation should not be something we

1:26:06try to add years later after a community

1:26:08has already been built. It should be

1:26:09incorporated into that design and

1:26:11operation of new development from the

1:26:13beginning. I also believes this creates

1:26:15a useful standard for future projects

1:26:18and we should not only ask whether a

1:26:19development has access to water. We

1:26:21should increasingly expect significant

1:26:23new development to demonstrate that

1:26:25conservation is built into its design.

1:26:28Thank you chair.

1:26:30>> Thank you council member Hustus. All

1:26:31right folks we are on the amendment

1:26:33here. So any discussion? Council member

1:26:35Onishi.

1:26:35>> Thank you madam chair.

1:26:38I guess to the applicant about this

1:26:41amendment on agriculture.

1:26:43Can someone come up?

1:26:55So to my knowledge, you folks are going

1:26:57to be using a private firm that's

1:27:00providing water in the Walo area. Okay.

1:27:03My understanding is their cost per

1:27:06gallon is higher than the public county

1:27:09water system. Correct. Okay. So

1:27:14on the agriculture side, farmers need

1:27:17water. So how you folks are going to

1:27:20deal with that?

1:27:22>> Yeah, thank you, Councilman. Um, so

1:27:26there's a couple answers to that. Of

1:27:28course, the 400 unit rental apartments

1:27:31don't have agriculture. We will, as part

1:27:33of our plan, have some community gardens

1:27:36that we will have plots of land that

1:27:37we're going to manage so that people

1:27:39living in the apartments can grow some

1:27:41food and they'll have drip irrigation

1:27:42>> basically home use. Then

1:27:44>> home use like drip irrigation.

1:27:45>> But you folks mentioned that you folks

1:27:47were looking also at production of farm,

1:27:50right?

1:27:51>> Yeah. So, let me uh so the next part of

1:27:54the project is the 275 1acre egg lots.

1:28:00And my my belief of those lots, what

1:28:02John and I believe it will be is it be a

1:28:04family hopefully a multigenerational

1:28:06family live in a house like that and

1:28:08have a plot of remember we're in a very

1:28:11difficult this is class E very poor

1:28:13soils in hello it's really hard to grow

1:28:16anything other than dragon fruit so

1:28:18people would have to have raised beds

1:28:20and maybe do drip irrigation something

1:28:22like that there you know it's a it's a

1:28:25difficult place to grow certainly not a

1:28:27commercial grow operation

1:28:28>> so hate hate to interrupt you but so

1:28:31when you folks do a presentation you

1:28:33folks mention about farming providing

1:28:36food for the communities this

1:28:38>> so it's not like regular farmlands that

1:28:41is going to be used for like acres of

1:28:44growing different vegetables or fruits

1:28:47>> you're talking about individual

1:28:50>> families that are going to be growing

1:28:53their own food and that's if they have

1:28:55the time to do it because if they

1:28:57working on this like if they purch

1:28:59purchase a home, they're going to be

1:29:01have to be working maybe multiple jobs

1:29:03to pay for it, right? Their their their

1:29:06um um their mortgage, right? And so they

1:29:09might not even have time to do farming,

1:29:13>> right? So I think when you folks do your

1:29:16presentation it should kind of be a

1:29:18little bit more different because I felt

1:29:19that there was going to be production of

1:29:22know tonnage or you know at least

1:29:26hundreds of pounds of food for them to

1:29:29feed because you folks also mentioned

1:29:30there was going to be a food hub.

1:29:32>> Yeah.

1:29:33>> Right. And so where was all that going

1:29:36to be

1:29:37produced?

1:29:39>> Council member Uni, I just wanted to

1:29:40remind we're on the amendment. Yeah, I

1:29:42know the water conservation.

1:29:43>> We're talking about the agriculture side

1:29:45of the water, right? Because it it

1:29:47doesn't make sense if it's just

1:29:49basically for for home use,

1:29:51>> right? Go ahead. So, um, with regard to

1:29:55the 1acre lots, okay, uh, the, um,

1:30:02the amount of water that we are, um,

1:30:05committing to those 1acre lots, I think,

1:30:07is 600 gallons a day. Is that what it

1:30:09is? 600

1:30:10>> 600 gallons a day. That's 200 gallons

1:30:13more

1:30:14>> than to the So,

1:30:17>> just about the farming part. That's all

1:30:19I'm worried about because you folks did

1:30:20your did your presentation about farming

1:30:23producing food,

1:30:25>> but you didn't say for home use only,

1:30:27right? And then you folks said you was

1:30:29going to have this food hub. So it, you

1:30:31know, so what what generally speaking,

1:30:34okay, the vast majority of these 1acre

1:30:36lots, I see them as having growing, you

1:30:40know, things outside their homes, much

1:30:43like a lot of us may do. Okay.

1:30:49I grow on my 8 8,000 square foot lot in

1:30:53Evo Beach okra, Japanese cucumbers,

1:30:56papaya, a lot of stuff. I get at least

1:30:5810 10 things that I'm growing. And my

1:31:02water usage with my house and the

1:31:04irrigation does not come to 600 gallons

1:31:07a month. Okay.

1:31:10If these people want to have a larger

1:31:13scale um agricultural um activity on

1:31:18their oneacre lot, we are going to try

1:31:20to work with Hawaii water service to get

1:31:24access to pot non-pottable water,

1:31:26recycled and slightly brackish water.

1:31:29Okay? And we will we will make that

1:31:32available to these people who want to um

1:31:35grow more. There may be some people who

1:31:38want to say to let's say um a farmer,

1:31:43hey, I want you to take half of my lot

1:31:48and half of my neighbors lot,

1:31:50effectively one acre, and we're going to

1:31:52let you farm our property. And then

1:31:55we'll work with those people to get them

1:31:57adequate water as well. With regard to

1:32:00the food hub,

1:32:00>> so where where is that in the documents

1:32:03that Epho is going to be doing this? We

1:32:06we didn't detail it in our documents,

1:32:08but this is the idea about how we would

1:32:10accomplish that. You know, we we

1:32:12generally speaking 99% of the people are

1:32:15just going to be growing like maybe uh

1:32:18basil and rosemary. Yeah.

1:32:21>> So the other people who want to grow

1:32:22more then we're going to work with them

1:32:23to get them non-pottable water for

1:32:26irrigation. With regard to the food hub,

1:32:28we plan to do aquaponics there, which

1:32:31basically, you know, you use water

1:32:34>> the the the us who are going to develop

1:32:38the food hub and work with the the

1:32:41tenants to to get their um you know,

1:32:44their their aquaponics. Uh

1:32:46>> if I may,

1:32:47>> if I may, I think I I just want to

1:32:49understand your question. We're not

1:32:50farming on the land. The food hub does

1:32:52not produce food. It's possible that

1:32:55somebody could do hydroponics or

1:32:56aquaponics. If they do, it would be

1:32:59reverse osmosis, recycled water.

1:33:01>> Um, and the food hub is more a place

1:33:04like this gentleman, Alex, who has an

1:33:05oyster farm, could bring oysters in and

1:33:08have a place to store it and distribute

1:33:10it. Aloon Farms who who works on owns

1:33:12Kawaii shrimp.

1:33:13>> So, basically, it's not where your

1:33:15property on your property is. Correct.

1:33:17You're not growing. It's not you can't

1:33:18grow on this property. It's very hard to

1:33:20do.

1:33:20>> Yeah. That's what I was saying. So your

1:33:22presentation the way you made it

1:33:23>> I I heard you.

1:33:24>> It's kind of No, you're right. It's a

1:33:26little over over embellished.

1:33:28>> Yeah, I understand.

1:33:29>> Thank you very much.

1:33:31>> Council member Onishi, Council Member

1:33:32Confielder.

1:33:36>> Um let's just

1:33:39Okay.

1:33:41Uh Mr. Hus, thank you for uh guiding the

1:33:45conversation very skillfully

1:33:48uh into our first amendment. I would

1:33:50have liked to have more time discussing

1:33:51the bill before jumping into amendments,

1:33:53but here we are. Uh, with the amendment

1:33:55in front of me and the way that this was

1:33:57guided into the convers conversation,

1:34:01uh, I appreciate the intent.

1:34:05Um, I really can't see a reason to say

1:34:07no to this, but this doesn't even begin

1:34:08to just to really get into the details

1:34:12of water usage as presented by Mr. Shyer

1:34:16about 10 minutes prior to where we are

1:34:17right now. Um, so wherever the council

1:34:21wants to go with this, this this should

1:34:23just be a a common sense

1:34:27build out in anyone's plans. I mean,

1:34:30toilets are now low flow.

1:34:33All the devices in a home are low flow.

1:34:38So, I appreciate the amendment. I I

1:34:40don't think it does what what really

1:34:41needs to be done in this discussion,

1:34:43though. Thank you.

1:34:44>> Thank you, Council Member Conley

1:34:46Clanfield. Anyone else on the amendment?

1:34:49Seeing none, all those in favor of

1:34:51amending bill 187 with the contents of

1:34:54communication 1025.11, please say I.

1:34:57>> Any opposed?

1:34:58>> Nope.

1:34:59>> Mr. Clerk, you have eight eyes, one

1:35:02oppos. Actually, we'll have to do a roll

1:35:03call since we have uh

1:35:05>> on the motion to amend any saving draft

1:35:072 with the constant communication

1:35:081025.11.

1:35:10Council member Gimba.

1:35:11>> I council Huis.

1:35:14>> Hi.

1:35:16>> Council Naba. Hi

1:35:17>> council kagiada.

1:35:18>> Hi

1:35:19>> council clan builder.

1:35:20>> No

1:35:21>> council kirkowitz.

1:35:22>> I council onishi.

1:35:24>> I council viegas.

1:35:26>> Hi.

1:35:28>> Chair Kimmel.

1:35:29>> I chair Kim. We have eight votes in

1:35:32favor with council member Connie

1:35:33Clanfelder opposed. Motion carries. The

1:35:35bill is amended.

1:35:36>> Thank you Mr. Clerk. All right. Back to

1:35:38the main motion. Further discussion.

1:35:40Council member Con. Clampfelder.

1:35:42>> Yeah. Thank you chair.

1:35:44Oh yeah. It's kind of where I wanted to

1:35:46start was at the bill's basis. Uh Mr.

1:35:49Shyer,

1:35:50are you eating right now?

1:35:52>> No.

1:35:52>> Okay.

1:35:56Thank you to Chair Nava and uh our staff

1:35:59for getting Mr. Shyer lunch. Thank you

1:36:01for being here today.

1:36:06Mahalo.

1:36:08>> Oh, what I was going to say when you

1:36:09first you first when I first started um

1:36:13just any planning decision should

1:36:14ultimately just have your input

1:36:17[laughter]

1:36:18given your background. Right. And I'm

1:36:20serious because

1:36:22there's a number of things that stood

1:36:23out to me in the last discussion around

1:36:25water use. Most of which revolved around

1:36:27one person's experience on being on

1:36:30different portions of government and

1:36:33involvement in projects, but none of

1:36:35which have the depth of experience that

1:36:37you have in sustainable yield, water

1:36:40use, land use, decision making at state

1:36:44and county levels, Supreme Court cases,

1:36:47water law, public doctrine, all of that,

1:36:49which is a the backbone of how we make

1:36:52water decisions in Hawaii County. You

1:36:55touched on a few things in your opening

1:36:56discussion. No, that I wanted to revisit

1:37:00the

1:37:02the way that we are currently drawing on

1:37:06the aquifers. You pointed to two things

1:37:07which caught my attention. One, we don't

1:37:10have a very solid understanding of

1:37:13aquafer overlaying and water source

1:37:17beyond physical

1:37:20viewing of an area.

1:37:23And then two, how those sources are

1:37:26being tapped

1:37:27and what their actual yield is.

1:37:31Can you can you circle back to those

1:37:34items? I mean, you heard that this

1:37:37project has decreased their usage by

1:37:40about a million gallons per day. And we

1:37:42just heard a very interesting discussion

1:37:44about defining what a is. During that

1:37:47conversation, I saw Mr. Pippen shaking

1:37:49his head no and the two applicants

1:37:51shaking their head yes on whether

1:37:53they're doing agg or not. So it's

1:37:55confusing to say the least. But if you

1:37:58could

1:38:01dive in a little bit deeper because I

1:38:02I've heard from Mr. internet. I've heard

1:38:05this over the years

1:38:08the articles that were written that came

1:38:09out

1:38:11talked about other areas that are having

1:38:13projects that are sizable

1:38:16including the recent one land companies

1:38:20thousand time shares I think we approved

1:38:22not more than four or five years ago and

1:38:23I was just reminded that there's a

1:38:26number of projects that have the ability

1:38:28to draw huge amount of water from an

1:38:31unknown aquifer

1:38:33source or system. So, dive in a little

1:38:36bit deeper on that because I'm I I have

1:38:38a an interest in this beyond just being

1:38:41mad at our own water department for not

1:38:43following what I just heard from you as

1:38:45well. And I've brought them in front of

1:38:46us in the past six months to ask some of

1:38:48these same questions and gotten we're

1:38:50working on it answers.

1:38:53>> Thank you very much. Um, council member,

1:38:58I I have been fortunate to have a lot of

1:39:00different experiences in land and water

1:39:02use, and I just really credit the people

1:39:04who trusted me and the communities I've

1:39:05been able to work with. So, it's not so

1:39:08much expertise as my of my own, but

1:39:10things that folks from around Havi have

1:39:12been um generous enough to share with

1:39:15me.

1:39:16Um, so yeah, so the the state

1:39:23significantly underfunds the water

1:39:25commission. They're doing the best in

1:39:28many ways that they can with

1:39:30insufficient staff and insufficient

1:39:31scientific knowledge. So they've set up

1:39:33this

1:39:35simple, overly simplified system for

1:39:37protecting groundwater that I described

1:39:40to you. Um, it certainly has its flaws.

1:39:45It is the system that we have right

1:39:47[snorts] now. Um there's ways that we

1:39:50could do better. The gold standard is to

1:39:52actually do um what are called numerical

1:39:55models, three-dimensional models often

1:39:57developed by the US Geological Survey

1:39:59that capture all the different ways that

1:40:01water move. And if like has been done

1:40:03for the island of Maui, get to the level

1:40:05of sophistication where they say, "Huh,

1:40:07if you put a well in at this spot and

1:40:09you pump it at this much, here's what's

1:40:11going to happen to other wells. here's

1:40:13what's going to happen to water flow to

1:40:15the coast that's helping liu beds or

1:40:17estuaries all those things that doesn't

1:40:19exist for this area and it doesn't exist

1:40:22for the entire state it exists in a few

1:40:24areas so we have the system that we have

1:40:27and we have this designation process so

1:40:32the duties that I believe this council

1:40:35has at this particular point um don't

1:40:39end with just a will serve letter Um

1:40:44because exactly as you said, you're

1:40:46already aware that there's other water

1:40:48demands that are coming from the Himea

1:40:50aquar. If they're tied to the Hawaii

1:40:52water service wells in this area, that's

1:40:53where they're coming from. So there's

1:40:56the previous project at Waloa that you

1:40:59mentioned for the time sharers. There's

1:41:00the pending farms which I understand is

1:41:03mostly entitled um from the existing

1:41:06original Mona Resort entitlement plus

1:41:08other things. DHHL which is a public

1:41:11trust use supposed to have a much higher

1:41:13priority of use has a number of unbuilt

1:41:16projects within the YA opera as well as

1:41:19the desire to get water from the way

1:41:21aquifer to Kyopa rather than depend on

1:41:23the very expensive Kohala Ranch water

1:41:26system. So when you lump all those

1:41:28together plus any water credits the

1:41:30Department of Water Supply has already

1:41:32committed to any water credits that

1:41:34Hawaii Water Service has permitted to

1:41:37that number and the water code is called

1:41:39authorized planned use. So what you

1:41:41really need to know is not

1:41:44how much water is being pumped now which

1:41:46we said is 89.68%

1:41:49plus this project.

1:41:51What you want to know is what is being

1:41:53pumped now plus what is authorized plant

1:41:56use plus this project. The idea is

1:42:00somebody has written a lot of checks and

1:42:01they haven't all been cashed from the

1:42:03account. So you can't just look at the

1:42:05account balance right now and say we're

1:42:08good because you know we still have this

1:42:10balance when there might be a whole

1:42:12bunch of other checks coming in that are

1:42:14going to draw on that.

1:42:17>> Is that responsive to your question

1:42:18council member?

1:42:19>> That's a great response. It

1:42:23let me s on that one. Okay. And then to

1:42:25Mr. Daryl.

1:42:29No, stay stay there. Stay there.

1:42:30Jonathan, stay there. You're good.

1:42:31There's We got two chairs.

1:42:41Somewhere in my memory banks, I remember

1:42:43the council passing some form of a law

1:42:46that requires the planning department

1:42:49when we consider projects like this to

1:42:51bring us all of the other projects or

1:42:53maybe it's a change of zone, but it's

1:42:56something that requires planning to show

1:42:58us all the other projects pending

1:42:59approval or that have potential

1:43:01buildouts. [clears throat]

1:43:03>> Do you remember?

1:43:03>> Correct. Yes, it was uh introduced I

1:43:07believe by cherry nava and it is

1:43:10presented to the planning commissions.

1:43:13So I'm sure it's part of your packet

1:43:15that uh was brought up.

1:43:17>> Okay. It's it's an Excel list that

1:43:20identifies all the surrounding

1:43:23uh projects and what the status is uh

1:43:27and their um I believe if there is uh if

1:43:33it's still active or if it's uh expired.

1:43:37>> Can we I don't know where it is in in

1:43:40what we have.

1:43:40>> I'll go and look for it. Can you get

1:43:42that to each of the council members

1:43:44prior to our discussion coming up

1:43:47>> uh for the next hearing if there is

1:43:49Well, there will be no matter what.

1:43:50Yeah, before the next hearing.

1:43:52>> Yeah, no problem.

1:43:53>> Thank you.

1:43:54>> Thank you.

1:43:55>> So, so back to you, Mr. Shy. So, we

1:43:58Jeff, we have we have this requirement

1:43:59of the council that Mr. NABA built in

1:44:02which shows us all of the proposed

1:44:05developments full buildout that are

1:44:07coming that over overlapped with a 90%

1:44:11draw currently or 89 point whatever it

1:44:14is right or close to 90% which is a

1:44:16trigger for the water commission correct

1:44:20>> uh yes it's one of the 70 criteria for

1:44:22groundwater designation

1:44:24>> and

1:44:25another point I heard is the water use

1:44:30is hard to track currently because

1:44:32that's just the wells that it's not

1:44:36necessarily the wells that are

1:44:38pumping. It's that they have an ability

1:44:41to pump. We just don't know how much

1:44:42they're pumping right now.

1:44:43>> Um so the the figure that um was

1:44:47reported in Environment Hawaii is

1:44:49reported pumping. So that there are

1:44:53wells that are not reporting even though

1:44:55it's legally required. So they may be

1:44:57pumping that could be added on to the

1:45:0089%.

1:45:01Um and yeah,

1:45:04>> how do we get that information?

1:45:06>> Uh it's up to the water uh commission,

1:45:08the commission on water resource

1:45:09management to provide those reports.

1:45:12>> Okay. But there's a little bit about it.

1:45:14>> I want I want to come back to you

1:45:15because Okay. Yeah. Because you already

1:45:17spoke on the amendment. Let me um give

1:45:18some other folks the opportunity to

1:45:19chime in. Council member Viegas.

1:45:22>> Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you for

1:45:24being here. Um Dr. shower. Um, is it

1:45:27shower?

1:45:28>> Uh, rhymes with lawyer or sounds like

1:45:30shyu.

1:45:31>> Perfect.

1:45:32>> Shyer.

1:45:33>> Shyer. Okay, got it. Um,

1:45:36thank you for being here. I, uh, have to

1:45:40honestly say that the slide brought me

1:45:42to tears. If best case scenario is, and

1:45:46when did you when were they saying this?

1:45:49>> Uh, those are projections to the end of

1:45:51the century. So, 2100.

1:45:55Okay. Um, that's devastating. 33%

1:46:00less water in our aquifer for my

1:46:03grandchildren and great great

1:46:04grandchildren. Highly highly um alarming

1:46:09quite frankly for myself. Um, and that

1:46:12being the best case scenario. Um,

1:46:16you know, your ability to take us

1:46:18through and look at history. How did we

1:46:20get here? what decisions have been made

1:46:22that got us to this point. Uh it's

1:46:26something that um is this elusive

1:46:29potential source of answers for how to

1:46:33make better decisions moving forward

1:46:36that I uh navigate sitting in this role

1:46:40and position. Um,

1:46:42[clears throat and cough]

1:46:43thank you for explaining the authorized

1:46:46planned use because that is a statistic,

1:46:50a number that I know I have been chasing

1:46:53for years and have yet to get an answer

1:46:58about. Um, we were, some of us were just

1:47:00in Maui for the Hawaii State Association

1:47:02of Counties annual conference and just

1:47:05sitting here and correct me if I'm

1:47:06wrong. Um, Chair Inaba, I may say this

1:47:09wrong, but the intent is, you know, we

1:47:13hear the term Maui Noi, and all I can

1:47:16think is Maui Nova,

1:47:19[snorts] and the legal, cultural,

1:47:22environmental, social

1:47:25challenges crisises

1:47:28that they have experienced

1:47:31based on some unfortunate decisions that

1:47:34were made historically there. I have

1:47:36deep concerns growing up here. I love

1:47:39Maui. It's beautiful. Watched it be

1:47:42devastated by short-term vacation

1:47:45rentals and condos and housing

1:47:47development opportunities.

1:47:50Um,

1:47:51and it still displaced the locals. So,

1:47:56growing up here and on the west side and

1:47:58having seen that become

1:48:01a potential part of our journey, I'm

1:48:03just being honest with all of you. Um,

1:48:07I have red flags with that. Uh, it is

1:48:11lovely to pencil a development that

1:48:16almost could be euphoric,

1:48:19but unless you're planning to manage

1:48:21every person's parcel and what and how

1:48:23they farm, I just I know that's not

1:48:25practical. Having been involved with

1:48:27Kohaniki and pushed and negotiated to

1:48:31get as much as we could from the

1:48:33community, um I'm concerned about your

1:48:36ability to really enforce the things

1:48:39you're talking about. I do however want

1:48:41to compliment you, um and Council Member

1:48:44Hustus on that amendment and your

1:48:48willingness to lean in and make all

1:48:51those changes um that are available to

1:48:54you now. Um,

1:48:58I also wish we were using a better

1:49:01system

1:49:03that could actually scientifically look

1:49:05at our water and put a lot of this to

1:49:08rest. Uh, it's really unfortunate that

1:49:12our most prized resource. Uh, whoever

1:49:15controls water controls development

1:49:18and wealth, wealth creation, wealth

1:49:21management.

1:49:23um also could potentially contribute to

1:49:27the destruction of civilization on the

1:49:29big island if as we know it if we don't

1:49:32manage it. Um

1:49:35I know that we can survive without every

1:49:38one of us owning our own home but we

1:49:41cannot survive without access to fresh

1:49:43water. And so my deep concern here is

1:49:50our capacity as an island when it comes

1:49:52to our aquifers and the the unanswered

1:49:55questions to no fault of you gentlemen

1:50:00as developers and coming to us with what

1:50:03I'd like to think is an authentic

1:50:06intention to bring housing to bring a

1:50:10template of what's possible. It's

1:50:13unfortunate that it's happening at a

1:50:15time of critical mass with climate

1:50:17change and the impacts to our weather

1:50:20patterns and our water security. And um

1:50:25with that, I'll yield at this time.

1:50:28>> Yeah. Council member Viegas, Council

1:50:29Member Glima.

1:50:31>> Thank you. So I just want to bring the

1:50:34COU perspective to this and that is you

1:50:37can have a giant development with zero

1:50:40water and it does have any impact on

1:50:43water resources because they have no

1:50:46water. So you know I think this is a

1:50:50better option. They're going to try and

1:50:52do water conservation. They're going to

1:50:55take care of people. They're going to

1:50:56have

1:50:58um opportunities for folks to

1:51:01um if they want to participate in

1:51:04agriculture. And agriculture doesn't

1:51:05have to be row crops. It can be

1:51:08aquaponics and hydroponics, which

1:51:11basically all of the serious agriculture

1:51:14in Hawaii is now greenhouse aquaponics

1:51:18or hydroponics. It is not row crops

1:51:21because that just doesn't work anymore.

1:51:25So [clears throat]

1:51:28I would beg my fellow council members to

1:51:32not make the perfect enemy of the good.

1:51:35This may not be the perfect project.

1:51:37They may have not thought everything

1:51:39through, but they thought a lot through.

1:51:42[clears throat]

1:51:43And it's a lot better for our people

1:51:47than living in Ocean View. Not putting

1:51:50Ocean View down because those folks are

1:51:52something else.

1:51:54But I think it's good to have other

1:51:56options than to live without water,

1:51:59without schools, and with

1:52:03very little access to escape routes if

1:52:06the volcano

1:52:08lava zone one and two erupts. So I think

1:52:11white cola green is a better option.

1:52:15Thanks.

1:52:16>> Thank you, council member Gumba. Anyone

1:52:17else? Council member um Kagiwara.

1:52:21>> Thank you, chair. Um yeah. Wow. Uh

1:52:26so much here. Um

1:52:30you know I recently a few months ago

1:52:34took the OHA training talking about the

1:52:36public trust doctrine.

1:52:39Um

1:52:40which I knew about to some extent but it

1:52:43was really reinforcing.

1:52:45And I'm just wondering I I see here in W

1:52:50Koa Green in your um

1:52:54your resources kind of page you you

1:52:56mentioned the Kauawaii Springs case.

1:53:01Um and maybe uh Mr. Showyer, you're a

1:53:04good person to to ask this question of,

1:53:08but how how does what came out of the

1:53:12Kauawaii Springs case apply or

1:53:14potentially apply to the Y Koa Green

1:53:19project? Um, I just want to really

1:53:21understand this and and feel like I'm

1:53:26have all the information because this is

1:53:27a really hard decision I think one way

1:53:29or another.

1:53:32U mahalo council member. Um the koi

1:53:35spring space case was decided by the hoy

1:53:37supreme court in February of 2014. So

1:53:40the real simple background um there was

1:53:44a water bottler who took over an old

1:53:46plantation spring on the island of Koi.

1:53:49Um and they were bottling water mostly

1:53:51for offices and selling it. And then

1:53:54they wanted to expand. Business was

1:53:56good. So they went to the planning

1:53:58commission. But then some community

1:53:59members came and said, "Hey, if you're

1:54:01going to like be taking more and more

1:54:02water out of here, were kind of

1:54:04concerned." Um, so they testified about

1:54:07that and the planning commission

1:54:09correctly said, "Huh, you know, yeah,

1:54:11that that might be a concern and water

1:54:12is a public trust and so we have some

1:54:14responsibilities."

1:54:16And then the um so they turned first to

1:54:19the water commission. They wrote them a

1:54:20letter that said, "Hey, can you guys

1:54:21give us any input?" And sort of like

1:54:23they didn't show up today, they sent

1:54:25like a simple letter to the quiet

1:54:26planning commission said, "Oh, it's not

1:54:27a designated water management area. We

1:54:28can't do anything." Which was not the

1:54:30right thing to say, but that's what they

1:54:33said. So then the planning commission

1:54:35said, "Okay, shoots. We don't have any

1:54:37information."

1:54:38So they asked the applicant to provide

1:54:41some. Applicant said, "We don't think we

1:54:42need to provide any." The planning

1:54:44commission denied their permit request.

1:54:46They said, "Listen, we think this is

1:54:48going to impact a public trust resource,

1:54:50water, if we approve this, so we don't

1:54:53have the information needed to make our

1:54:56decision." So they denied it. The

1:54:58private company appealed. It went all

1:55:00the way to the Hoy Supreme Court. Hoy

1:55:03Supreme Court upheld the county of Koi.

1:55:05They said, "No, actually the planning

1:55:06commission did exactly the correct

1:55:08thing." And then one of the things that

1:55:10was super useful that the court did was

1:55:13that you know there is a series of

1:55:16complex water cases. Wahole um kukui one

1:55:20kukui 2 violo mai nava 1 2 and three um

1:55:24and you don't want to read through all

1:55:26of those. So they said hey you know what

1:55:27we're going to summarize everything for

1:55:28you agency. And when they say agency

1:55:31they meant state or county agency. And

1:55:34so they set up this whole process that

1:55:37if a body of the county or the state is

1:55:40making a decision that's going to impact

1:55:42water, um what do you have to do? Uh

1:55:45there's certain standards first that the

1:55:47applicant is supposed to do. They're

1:55:49first supposed to show their actual

1:55:51needs, which seems like maybe we got a

1:55:54little bit closer to today. Um then they

1:55:57have to look at do you have any

1:55:59available alternative sources?

1:56:02They have there's a particular standard

1:56:04called reasonleness and beneficialness

1:56:06or the reasonable beneficial standard.

1:56:08reasonable is is it efficient and

1:56:11beneficial? Is it in line with existing

1:56:14state and counties plans and priorities?

1:56:16And then are they impacting any public

1:56:20trust uses of water which include

1:56:26[laughter]

1:56:27>> the Hawaii courts have specified there's

1:56:29five public trust uses of water which

1:56:31are always supposed to have priority.

1:56:34um water left in its natural state that

1:56:37supports ecosystems. So water flowing

1:56:39mal and makai whether it's in streams or

1:56:40underground

1:56:42water used in exercise of traditional

1:56:44and customary native

1:56:52>> water used for traditional customary

1:56:53native wine practices. Water reserved

1:56:55for or used by the department of hine

1:56:57homelands. the domestic needs of the

1:57:00general public and um water set aside

1:57:03for cult farming and other farming on

1:57:06kuliana parcels. So is the use proposed

1:57:10one of those or not? And if it's not, is

1:57:12there going to be a harm to one of those

1:57:13public trust uses? And then there's a

1:57:14whole bunch of duties of the approving

1:57:17agency to then make specific findings

1:57:19about that. So my hot take in this case

1:57:23is that you're aware of [snorts]

1:57:26some of the information from the

1:57:27applicant, not necessarily all the

1:57:30information from the applicant that

1:57:31would be required under Koi Springs. And

1:57:34you would need to do some of these

1:57:35analyses in order to fulfill your public

1:57:37trust duties towards water especially

1:57:40given that yes there's some complexity

1:57:43and uncertainty around what the true

1:57:45boundaries are of the ya aquifer but it

1:57:47is what the water commission has set and

1:57:48they've said if it's if you go over 16

1:57:52then you're going to start to be harming

1:57:54this resource.

1:57:57>> Thank you.

1:57:57>> Thank you. Thanks. Um, I mean, clearly

1:58:01we're not dealing with a water bottling

1:58:04plant here. We're be dealing with a

1:58:06project that has many uh wonderful

1:58:09attributes and could be really good for

1:58:12the community. And I think that's that's

1:58:14why I specifically am struggling so much

1:58:17with this uh decision uh because it does

1:58:20seem like a really good project. Um I

1:58:25guess you know if we could trade it for

1:58:27some project that we okayed for time

1:58:29shares I would love to do that but we

1:58:31can't do that. So um

1:58:35what going forward I'm I'm wondering if

1:58:39um maybe uh Mr.

1:58:42Are there any um

1:58:46alternate water sources if for some

1:58:48reason um that's needed by this project

1:58:51or is the Yimea aquifer the only uh

1:58:54possible place to draw water?

1:58:56>> Thank you council member for the

1:58:58question. Uh it's a great question. It's

1:58:59very relevant and the answer is

1:59:02affirmatively yes. There are alternate

1:59:04sources. Uh in fact, Hawaii water

1:59:06service employs a brackish and recycled

1:59:10system for approximately three gallon uh

1:59:12three million gallons per day. It draws

1:59:15uh that brackish water from the adjacent

1:59:18Aniho Amalu aquifer. We intend to uh

1:59:22pursue similar sources for non-potable

1:59:24uses on this property as well. So that

1:59:27is definitely an option here.

1:59:29>> Okay. And would that uh further reduce

1:59:32your water usage as you've detailed

1:59:35today or is that already been taken into

1:59:38account?

1:59:38>> No, that would further reduce um

1:59:40especially the irrigation and

1:59:42agricultural uses which are uh in our

1:59:46current demand estimates.

1:59:48>> Okay. And is the reason that wasn't um

1:59:50maybe part of this before just because

1:59:52you already got the okay for the water

1:59:55amount you wanted or is this like a more

1:59:57expensive uh more challenging uh way to

2:00:00go?

2:00:00>> I think it's it's primarily the first we

2:00:03got uh the will serve letter for the

2:00:05full request. Uh Hawaii water service

2:00:07didn't uh didn't have any qualms about

2:00:09providing the water. It's well within

2:00:11their capacity uh currently. they don't

2:00:14have to expand their system or or drill

2:00:16any new wells to supply this water. Um,

2:00:19but it's only come up in the last couple

2:00:22weeks that we're actually aware of these

2:00:25alternative sources of brackish and

2:00:27recycled water, reclaimed water, um,

2:00:30being available. So, it's it's kind of

2:00:32new information for

2:00:33>> Thank you so much. Um, so my thoughts on

2:00:37this are

2:00:39the council member representing this the

2:00:43district that um has this property in it

2:00:48um has clearly done a lot of homework

2:00:51and I think has thought about, you know,

2:00:56projects that are already in play, but

2:00:59also potential projects that especially

2:01:02like the DHHL um potentials coming up

2:01:05and he seems to be still supportive of

2:01:09this which which carries a lot of weight

2:01:11with me. But I I do have my concerns um

2:01:16still around, you know, what I've heard

2:01:18here around, you know, the public trust

2:01:20and our responsibility for making sure

2:01:24that we don't go further than than we

2:01:27should with the water commitment. So, um

2:01:31I'm still really on the fence and um I

2:01:34know at least one uh person asked if

2:01:36that this could potentially be postponed

2:01:40or held for a while. I don't know if

2:01:42that's a possibility with other people

2:01:44here, but um yeah, I'm still, you know,

2:01:48new information is coming fast. It seems

2:01:50like we got a lot of new information

2:01:52today. Um you have recently gotten new

2:01:55information. Um, I'm wondering if

2:01:57there's additional new information that

2:01:59may be coming out there. So, um, that's

2:02:02that's just where I'm at right now. Um,

2:02:06so I'll I'll leave it at that and let

2:02:07my, uh, colleagues, uh, jump in here as

2:02:11they may. I yield.

2:02:12>> Thank you, Council Member Kagi. I will

2:02:14just note that we are about 10 minutes

2:02:16into the next scheduled meeting, so want

2:02:19to keep this the same. Council member

2:02:20Onishi.

2:02:21>> Yeah, I was Thank you, Madam Chair. I

2:02:23was going to just ask a question, too.

2:02:25we want to just have this postponed to

2:02:27the next meeting

2:02:30for more discussion.

2:02:31>> Um I'm gonna ask um Cherry Naba to

2:02:35introduce a a Manini housekeeping

2:02:37amendment so we can resolve that and

2:02:39then I think um what I am getting a

2:02:41sense of from the body is that there's a

2:02:43desire to have more conversation. I

2:02:45haven't weighed in yet but I do I would

2:02:47feel comfortable there's some data I

2:02:48don't have that I'd like to have.

2:02:49>> So all you I'll yield to Cherry Nova.

2:02:52>> Thank you.

2:02:52>> Thank you. Move to amend bill 187 draft

2:02:552 with the contents of communication

2:02:571025.10.

2:03:00>> Okay. Motion by council member Enava to

2:03:03amend bill 187 with the contents of

2:03:061025.10.

2:03:10Cherry nava.

2:03:11>> Second by council member Kirkowitz.

2:03:13>> Thank you. [snorts]

2:03:13>> Thank you. Um just this is housekeeping.

2:03:16My office prepared the last amendment

2:03:18that uh we overlooked. we we use to

2:03:22implement twice. So just fixing that ask

2:03:26for your support. Thanks.

2:03:28>> Any discussion? Seeing none, all those

2:03:30in favor, please say I.

2:03:32>> Any opposed? Mr. Clerk, you have nine

2:03:34eyes. Bill 187 is amended. Okay, back to

2:03:38the main motion. Council member um

2:03:40Towitz.

2:03:41>> Yeah, thank you, Chair. Seeing as we're

2:03:43we're running out of time and this

2:03:45question about water availability um and

2:03:48and commitments is still lingering. I

2:03:50had suggested at the last committee

2:03:52hearing and I'll suggested again hearing

2:03:53from Seaworm um if they are the quote

2:03:56unquote regulatory body that is keeping

2:03:58track of all of the water commitments as

2:04:00Mr. Shower had suggested. A lot of

2:04:02checks have been written um but we don't

2:04:04know if the bank's going to be able to

2:04:06cash it right. I think it's really

2:04:07important to know with this project

2:04:09being um brought before us for

2:04:12consideration

2:04:14um and water commitments already being

2:04:16provided by the private water service

2:04:18company. Just wanting to do our due

2:04:20diligence to make sure that there is

2:04:21carrying capacity for the area to

2:04:23support what we all agree to be a very

2:04:25worthwhile project. So if your office

2:04:27would like to write that letter or our

2:04:30office can take the lead, I just I think

2:04:31it's important for us to hear that body

2:04:33by the next hearing. Thank you.

2:04:35>> Agreed. Um, council member Kenny Le.

2:04:40>> Well, while we have honed in on water, I

2:04:42I'd like the applicant to be a little

2:04:44bit more specific about your

2:04:45agricultural use. I've heard a I've

2:04:48heard renewable energy. What I heard was

2:04:49a beautiful project. I think as we've

2:04:52sused out more of the details, there's a

2:04:54beautiful project on paper and then

2:04:56there's reality of what we're going to

2:04:58build. Um, which is similar to what I

2:04:59heard from a testifier today. So I would

2:05:03say sharpen up them pencils and uh come

2:05:06back to us with the project as you

2:05:07actually plan to build renewable energy

2:05:10a 10acre lots food hubs those things

2:05:13take water

2:05:15especially a food hub

2:05:17and then to Mr. Sher, thank you for

2:05:19being here today. Um, enlightening as

2:05:21usual. And then I I think we've we did

2:05:24we did hone we honed in on water very

2:05:26specifically today. It's very important.

2:05:31The plight of white Kaloa is

2:05:34what I see as an incompetency from past

2:05:37councils and developers to adequately

2:05:40build infrastructure in white Kaloa

2:05:42leading to what we have today. which is

2:05:44why Matt Chocker is in here and the

2:05:46wildfire folks have come in again and

2:05:48again to lean in on us to make better

2:05:50decisions. Now, this is another

2:05:52application for a big project for a lot

2:05:55of homes. It's not just water. It's how

2:05:57people get in and out. It's two highways

2:06:00or one highway servicing the entire

2:06:02area. Mr. Nava's comment about the

2:06:05schools. all of this it's it's our duty

2:06:08to review the impact on infrastructure

2:06:11and our community when we look at a

2:06:13project like this

2:06:15seeing Kanani Atan step away from the

2:06:17project and thinking about the white

2:06:18cola land company decision thousand time

2:06:22shares coming not built yet and uh

2:06:25Kyapa's inability as a department of

2:06:28wine homelands project with existing

2:06:31parcels that don't have access to county

2:06:32water and rely on Kohala Ranch water

2:06:35currently ly all point to some very

2:06:41to me in just inappropriate past

2:06:43decisions and here we are with another

2:06:45project trying to decide whether we

2:06:47should or shouldn't move forward with

2:06:48more homes because they may be

2:06:51affordable and solve a crisis.

2:06:54I just there's a lot of question marks

2:06:56out there that if you look at

2:06:58holistically

2:07:01this is going to be a difficult decision

2:07:03for me. So, thank you for your time

2:07:05today and thank you for everyone who

2:07:06came in to participate.

2:07:08Look forward to our next hearing. And

2:07:10Mr. Daryl, please show us that list of

2:07:11proposed projects. And uh Mr. Shyer, if

2:07:15you could you can work with us with the

2:07:17to get information as Miss Kirkwood

2:07:19requested from Seaworm and a better

2:07:22layout of water usage in the area, that

2:07:24would be tremendous. Thank you.

2:07:26>> Thank you, council member. Um I'm going

2:07:29to just check in over there with Mr.

2:07:32Hustus. Any final comments before I take

2:07:35a motion to postpone?

2:07:37>> No. Thanks, chair.

2:07:38>> All right. Council member Nishi, did you

2:07:40want to make the motion to postpone for

2:07:42us?

2:07:43>> Okay. Make a motion to post um postpone

2:07:47bill 186 and 187 to our next committee

2:07:51meeting which is I think no se October

2:07:556.

2:07:56>> Yes.

2:07:59I I I'm afraid the clerk is going to

2:08:01require us to do one motion to postpone

2:08:03at a time.

2:08:03>> Postpone bill

2:08:04>> and we're on 187 now. So, if you can

2:08:06>> 187 to October 6th committee meeting.

2:08:10>> Thank you. A motion by council member

2:08:13Onishi, seconded by council member

2:08:14Kaguada to postpone bill 187 to our

2:08:17October 6th committee meeting. All those

2:08:20in favor?

2:08:21>> I just have a question. I you know a lot

2:08:23was just asked of the applicant and I

2:08:25want to make sure two weeks is enough

2:08:28time. If not the next committee meeting

2:08:30would be October

2:08:3220th and that one would be in Kona. Um

2:08:35also with the request for seaworm I I

2:08:39just don't know if that's enough time.

2:08:41So first and foremost with the applicant

2:08:44>> you're going to

2:08:46thank you for the courtesy. I would

2:08:48certainly prefer to come back in two

2:08:49weeks. have been coming several times

2:08:51and appreciate getting it done with. I

2:08:53think I just want to say one thing about

2:08:55seaworm. You know, I you asked me to do

2:08:58research over these last two weeks on

2:09:00water and I've spent an enormous amount

2:09:01of time talking to uh not only Don

2:09:05Thomas who was on but other

2:09:06hydraologists and I think the problem

2:09:09with Seaworm will be that

2:09:13there there is a I don't call it a

2:09:15debate, a discussion within the

2:09:16hydraology community.

2:09:17>> I'm sorry. Yeah, I I think we can we can

2:09:20go back and forth with the currently

2:09:22exists, but just wanted to check on the

2:09:24date and then

2:09:26>> uh [clears throat] Mr. Shyer, just from

2:09:29your professional opinion, do you think

2:09:31that we would be able to get an answer

2:09:32from Seaworm in two weeks?

2:09:36>> You can just do a thumbs up, thumbs down

2:09:38from back there. [laughter]

2:09:40>> All right, we'll try our best for two

2:09:42weeks. Thank you. I just wanted to

2:09:43double check with the applicants first.

2:09:46We'll we'll do our best to try to get

2:09:48somebody for in in that time frame. I it

2:09:50may be a bit of a challenge, but we do

2:09:52have a little bit of an extra time

2:09:54between our next session this this go

2:09:56around. Um all right, any further

2:09:59discussion on postponement?

2:10:01Seeing none, all those in favor, please

2:10:02say I.

2:10:03>> Any opposed? Mr. Crook, you have nine

2:10:06eyes. Bill 187 is postponed. Mr. Anishi,

2:10:09>> motion to postpone bill 186 to the

2:10:12October 6 committee meeting.

2:10:15Motion by council member Onishi,

2:10:17seconded by council member Viegas to

2:10:19postpone bill 186 to our October 6th

2:10:23meeting. All those in favor, please say

2:10:24I.

2:10:25>> Any opposed? Mr. Crook, you have nine

2:10:28eyes. 187, sorry, 186 is postponed to

2:10:32October 6th. With that, we have no

2:10:34further business on our agenda. We are

2:10:36journed. Mahalo.

2:10:39>> Thank you all. Enjoy the rest of your

2:10:41day.

2:10:43>> Thank you all.

2:10:48The committee on policy policy committee

2:10:51on environmental and natural resource

2:10:53management will start at

2:10:571:27 to give us a a potty break.

2:11:18We're going to talk about that next.

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