2026-08-22 - Town Council Retreat

00:00that you'll be able to hear us. This is

00:01welcome in introductions. We really

00:03appreciate all the staff being here on a

00:05Saturday. We know that's challenging.

00:08You guys are working really hard. We

00:10felt as a body that it was really

00:12important to come together and try to

00:14understand each other's budget

00:15philosophy in general. Um, as we move

00:18into the next budget, we have two new

00:20council members who um were great

00:24participants last budget and now this is

00:26an opportunity for all of us to

00:28understand each other a little bit

00:29better. Um, where we're coming from,

00:31where we're going on behalf of our

00:33community, both residents and

00:34businesses, and to support our staff who

00:37are our most important asset. um want to

00:40make sure that we're treating them in

00:42such a way that they want to stay and

00:44stay with us and we want to keep on

00:46supporting them. Um we have one council

00:50member listening at this time. We expect

00:51him to be here momentarily hopefully. Um

00:54I'd like to turn it over to Brandon to

00:56sort of set things going, let us know

00:58that this is being recorded, etc. Town

01:01Manager.

01:02>> Thank you, Mayor. Good morning. Um so to

01:06council, thank you for your time on a

01:08Saturday. Um this is a hard group to

01:10wrangle. I think we provided 16 dates

01:13and this is the one that works. So glad

01:16everybody could be here or is on the

01:17way. Um so for staff, thank you.

01:19Appreciate your time on a Saturday.

01:21Obviously [clears throat] um some of you

01:23are here because we may ask you

01:25questions like the really hard ones will

01:27come to you. Um, but also I think it's a

01:29really good conversation for you all to

01:31hear as we pro already working into the

01:34FY28 budget. So I think that's important

01:36as well. Um, so again, if you've not

01:38been in this facility, restrooms are out

01:41back into the main hallway. Take a

01:43right, take your next right, and then

01:44they're on the left. That's a lot of

01:46turns, but they're that way. Um, we have

01:49the breakfast outside. We have lunch

01:51coming 11:30, 12ish, and then you're

01:54hoping to wrap up by 4:30ish. really

01:57depends on you. We are here for you. And

01:59so I think I want to emphasize that this

02:02is, you know, when we come to the

02:04January retreat, we you really structure

02:07that pretty well and and have a lot of

02:09information in and a hand out, hand out

02:12a book. Um so for today, this is really

02:14your conversation. Um we're going to

02:16guide it. We're going to provide you

02:17some information you've asked for. We're

02:19going to make sure that um you know you

02:21have the basics of our budget and what

02:24are we investing in, what are we

02:26investing in that's one time versus

02:28recurring, what if any of that could

02:30pause and if so what's the impact of

02:32that and then also want to start talking

02:35about um what the future needs are over

02:38the next three, four, five years. We'll

02:40do that uh particularly including

02:42staffing to paint a bit of a picture

02:44there for you all. Uh we will then move

02:46into revenues. Um actually I'm I'm kind

02:50of sorry and this this is a guide. This

02:52is not in [clears throat] any way set in

02:53stone because again we want this day to

02:55go where you want and need it to go. So

02:58if we don't get to the community

03:00outreach at the end, that's okay. We can

03:02do that in another work session. We've

03:04already held some time in upcoming work

03:05sessions for whatever comes out of this

03:08to take it forward. Um and again we're

03:10hoping to wrap up by 4:30 4:45 at the

03:14latest. that's your call. So staff is

03:16here to provide support to you. Um we're

03:19going to lead off this morning. We

03:20trying to get into just the budget

03:22breakdown that seems to be I think at

03:23the core of what the discussion like we

03:25will at least start with today. So Micah

03:27has done a ton a ton of work um to break

03:30a lot of that down and has given us a

03:32great template now for moving forward. I

03:35think that looks at you know what do we

03:36absolutely have to do? What are our

03:38priorities to do? What is nice to do and

03:41what is optional? And I'll tell you the

03:43optional field is pretty slim. Um

03:46because again all of that comes with if

03:48you remove some of that you remove

03:51programs you remove potentially people

03:54you remove potentially quality of life

03:56type issues. So you know we want to make

03:58sure that you're understanding what the

04:00implications of any of those changes

04:02might be. We also Byron is going to talk

04:05about revenues. Um again the the one

04:07piece that we don't necessarily know

04:10today is the new rebound. Um, we're

04:12still waiting on some outstanding

04:14appeals from three years ago.

04:18[clears throat]

04:18Um, but we also don't know what the

04:20reval will come out looking like in

04:22probably January. Um, you know, that

04:25work is going on now. So, we may get

04:28some hints as we go, but by January,

04:30certainly by the retreat, assuming we

04:32schedule that later in the month, and

04:33that's coming soon as well. Um, we'll be

04:36ready to share that with you, and you'll

04:37be able to make some informed decisions

04:39in regards to, you know, what you we

04:41want to do, don't want to do. I think

04:43one of the other important pieces this

04:45afternoon is we'd like to spend some

04:47time um letting you talk to each other.

04:49I've got some prompts I'll I'll share

04:51with you as we go to try to moderate

04:55that to a bit, but what's

04:57[clears throat] the budget philosophy

04:58going to be? Understanding we don't have

05:01every answer today and and we don't have

05:03to answer any of these questions today.

05:05This is a good start, but what's the

05:07philosophy going to be, you know,

05:09[snorts] as we really getting into the

05:11nuts and bolts of the FY28 budget. You

05:14know, we've already had some

05:15conversations about what some of our

05:17strengths are, what some of our

05:18limitations might be, um areas that

05:21we've been able to do some good work,

05:22areas that we still have some catchup to

05:24do. So, we want to talk through all that

05:27um with you or as much as we get

05:28through. And again, depending on timing,

05:31community outreach, um we've heard you.

05:33We need to do that differently and more

05:35often and get better feedback. So, we've

05:38got, I think, a lot of good ideas on how

05:40that can work. Um, a lot of that is

05:42going to involve you as much as you're

05:44willing to be involved. Um, because

05:46staff can do a lot of that outreach, but

05:48I think there's great value in you being

05:50directly involved with that. Um, perhaps

05:52you being involved with hosting some

05:55sessions, whether that be at town hall

05:57or at other facilities. So, we want to

05:59share some information with you about

06:01that as well. Um, let me see.

06:07That's the highlight. You want to go to

06:08the next slide?

06:10>> Before we do that, Brandon, could I just

06:12say one thing,

06:13>> please?

06:13>> Which is that I I would just like to

06:18kind of level set my expectation, which

06:21is that I don't want this day to be

06:23about like what can we cut out of the

06:25budget. I I want the day to be about

06:30understanding the budget, you know,

06:33information. I want I really hope that

06:35everyone approaching it with an open

06:38mind and just here to learn and here to,

06:43you know, hopefully here to, you know,

06:46maybe think up some other great ideas or

06:48or, you know, brainstorm with each

06:51other. But I, you know, I I think that

06:54we do ourselves a disservice if we

06:56approach this as the, you know, what can

06:58we cut to not raise taxes day. So that's

07:01all I wanted to say.

07:02>> Thank you. I think that's an important

07:03part of the conversation.

07:05So thank you Ann. I agree. I totally

07:08agree. I think this should be more of a

07:10information gathering um making sure we

07:15are defining um definitions the same way

07:19because I'm not sure we always do and

07:22and that goes for me as well. I have a

07:25different kind of um

07:27definition to certain things maybe than

07:30others. So I think I think we need to

07:32keep that in mind. I appreciate you

07:34saying that. I think It's very

07:35important.

07:36>> Yeah, that's what we want to do is is

07:38have you minimally better informed when

07:41the more meteor conversations about the

07:43specific FY28 budget come. So, this is a

07:46good chance to do that for newer

07:48members, but [clears throat] really for

07:49everybody again to level set. Let's all

07:51have the same information. Let's all

07:53understand what's in the budget, why

07:55it's in the budget, what are you willing

07:57to talk about in the budget. Um, and

07:59then take us forward from there. Again,

08:01after this, um, we will have any number

08:03of work sessions to follow up on things

08:05we won't get to because we will not get

08:07to everything that you all shared with

08:09us in the surveys. Um, I know that's

08:11hard to imagine. Um, there was a little

08:13bit of information in there. So, we want

08:15to make sure that we are prioritizing

08:17coming out of today, what do you need

08:19and want to talk about next? You do have

08:21a CIP deep dive [snorts] coming in

08:23October. This is a time to refresh that

08:26and that will directly relate to, you

08:28know, what are we investing in? What

08:29does that do? that service and other

08:32pieces of that as well. And then we'll

08:34schedule other pieces. And then again,

08:36hopefully this today and that other work

08:38will better inform what we're going to

08:40do at the retreat in January. How do we

08:42frame that and shape that to make that

08:44as useful to you all as we can. And

08:47again, I think probably next week we'll

08:50we should have a draft calendar to talk

08:52about and look at, you know, trying to

08:54get you all

08:58That's our next big challenge to get

09:00everybody that weekend. Yes, sir.

09:02>> So

09:07not

09:09I need to understand. So if

09:18the time

09:23said

09:26I just want to make sure that

09:32It's not too late

09:35for me.

09:41I just understand.

09:46>> So that can take place certainly. I mean

09:48it can start today. I think there can be

09:51discussion. We're not expecting you to

09:52say yes, we're going up. Yes. None of

09:54that. But I think you can discuss what

09:56the impacts might be. what your concerns

09:57are about that. And then I think January

10:00is when we would really start to have

10:01that conversation and then certainly as

10:04we move into work sessions as early as

10:06potentially March, you know, we'll have

10:08those conversations. And I think you

10:10don't necessarily want to make that

10:12decision too prematurely because you

10:14also don't you not you you council, we

10:17staff don't necessarily have all those

10:19answers up front, right?

10:20>> [clears throat]

10:20>> Because again, the the rebell piece is

10:22going to be a really big piece of

10:24deciding how we approach that because if

10:27you go down in rebell, that's that's

10:30going to be a really big factor in what

10:32we can or cannot do in 28. If it's

10:35level, we work our way through that. If

10:37it goes up, you potentially have a

10:39decision to make about going above

10:40revenue mutual. So, yeah, I think you

10:42can talk about things today, but those

10:44decisions won't be made until probably

10:46April.

10:48>> So, can I add on to that? I think um

10:51this idea of a tax rate is only one

10:54piece of this puzzle.

10:56>> Um and no, I know you're saying

10:59differently, but I just feel like I have

11:01to say this out loud for myself. Um the

11:05tax rate is just one piece of this

11:07puzzle. Everything we do is a balance

11:10and everything we do is choices. And so

11:13I think [clears throat] before

11:15before we get all the way to the end

11:18result, we need to understand all the

11:20choices that are in front of us. So I

11:23think I think maybe it's important um

11:26you know [clears throat] again back to

11:27Ann's comment

11:28>> that today be like a um judgment zone

11:32free kind of uh ask all the questions

11:36you want and need.

11:39And just because you ask a question

11:40doesn't mean you're heading down a a

11:43specific road. It means you need to

11:46understand the answer to the question

11:48because there are so many choices ahead

11:51of us and um so I think I think don't

11:55because I will tell you I can do that

11:57sometimes. I'm like why did she ask that

12:00question? Where is she heading?

12:02>> She means me.

12:03>> Yeah, I mean myself actually. I'm

12:06[clears throat] not heading anywhere. I

12:08just need to know the answer if I

12:11If I agree to go down a road to fund

12:15everything, what does that look like and

12:17what does that mean? That doesn't mean

12:19I'm going there. I just need to know

12:20what that choice is. So, anyhow, I just

12:23feel like I have to kind of lay that out

12:25there, too. I think it's really

12:26important to ask your questions today.

12:30So yeah, and also I think that it's I

12:34think it's really important to

12:36understand that every single budget is

12:38is a different budget. Like Liz will

12:42tell you, she's done more budgets than

12:43anybody in the room and every single one

12:47is different. So the things that we that

12:50we cared about that we asked questions

12:53about that we that we

12:57decided about last time the the picture

13:01has changed. The picture is always

13:03changing. So you know you like you guys

13:06have questions because you're new. We

13:07have questions because the situation is

13:10new you know and that's every single

13:12budget 100%.

13:15>> So just a couple of things.

13:16We're recording this

13:18>> audio recording.

13:18>> The audio recording will be available.

13:20But

13:21>> correct.

13:21>> That being said, I think an important

13:23part of today is sharing our values and

13:27what we're our personal budget

13:29philosophy is in regards to municipal

13:33budgeting. I know you and I have pretty

13:35different, but it's going to be helpful

13:37to everyone for each of us to put it out

13:39there a little bit more um than I think

13:44any of us have in the past. What would

13:46be helpful is if everybody could be

13:50prepared to to

13:53come off their deeply held budget

13:56philosophy a little bit. Because the

13:59more that we can get to a compromised

14:01state on our budget philosophy, the more

14:04that we can evolve a shared budget

14:07philosophy,

14:08the the easier and the better the the

14:11budget cycle will be and the the better

14:13it'll be for the public, too.

14:16>> [clears throat]

14:17>> compromise. No, that's exactly why

14:21>> I wanted you to be pretent because you

14:23sort of bring people together and sort

14:25of say things like that out loud

14:27[snorts] that need to happen. Um, so I

14:29appreciate that very much. So yeah, so I

14:33don't think we're not doing line items.

14:35We're not deciding what we're funding

14:36next year or things like that, but I

14:38think it's really important to ask the

14:39questions of if we don't fund that next

14:42year, what's that going to look like?

14:45consequences of doing things like that.

14:46I think that's a useful thing for today

14:48and the decision about whether or not

14:50we're actually funding things comes

14:52after we have more information,

14:53including the rebell. Um, if we go back

14:55to 5% growth, we don't really have much

14:58to discuss because we're going to be

14:59able to do what the residents are asking

15:01of us without the tax rate. But if

15:04that's not the case and we're fearful

15:05that it might not be, then we're going

15:07to have choices

15:08>> to make. and it's all about choices and

15:10it's we're all working from the idea

15:13that we're doing the choices that we

15:14think are best for the community in the

15:16short term and the long term. So that's

15:19the things to just keep in mind. We're

15:21elected by them to represent them and

15:23we're representing different parts of

15:25the community because we align with

15:27different parts of the community for our

15:29budget philosophy and coming off our

15:32extremes is going to be really

15:33important. I know I'm a bit extreme so

15:35I'm going to try to come together and be

15:37more compromised. I think that This past

15:40councils have not been more than the sum

15:42of their parts. In some ways, we've been

15:44less than the sum of our parts because

15:46we haven't really been able to gel and

15:48understand each other enough to

15:50compromise and give a little bit here,

15:52take a little bit there and end up with

15:55a better budget.

15:57So, that's just a little bit of a that's

16:00a personal perspective, maybe not shared

16:02by everybody, but I'd like this council

16:04to really be more than the sum of our

16:06parts.

16:09That was a lot of soap box. I apologize.

16:10>> That's not a soap box at all. That's why

16:12we're here is to make sure that

16:13[clears throat] everybody is hearing

16:14from each other, particularly the seven.

16:17Um so that we can then help you um

16:19through a budget process and understand

16:21better going in. You know, what are your

16:23priorities? What are you willing to

16:25discuss? What are you not willing to

16:26discuss? Um and and you think some of

16:29that's pretty obvious what your

16:31priorities are line up with the

16:32community's priorities obviously and

16:34they line up with staff's priorities. So

16:35I don't think there's ever challenge

16:38there. Um it's just what can we

16:40realistically do with the resources that

16:42we ultimately agreed to have. And so we

16:45want to we want to work through being a

16:47little better prepared going in so we

16:50don't end up with some of the later

16:52conversations that we ended up with um

16:54in terms of you know what what was a

16:57compromised budget just I think more

17:00compromised than perhaps some folks were

17:02looking for. So we want to get back to

17:05ideally where everybody's closer

17:06together man on the budget indicating

17:09that everybody understands it and feels

17:11it's the best that we collectively can

17:13do.

17:14>> So on the screen just a quick reminder

17:16this is the I asked each of you to share

17:18with us a definition of success for this

17:21retreat.

17:22>> I wanted to add um

17:24some of my thoughts into this initial uh

17:27conversation. Um, first off, I

17:29appreciate everybody who's here, um,

17:32staff and, you know, putting this

17:33together. I know it's a lot of work. Um,

17:36and, uh, it's very much appreciated. Um,

17:41I keep coming back to growth and learned

17:46recently that growth is like a like

17:50riding a bicycle in that [clears throat]

17:54what do you have to do to maintain

17:55stability on a bicycle? you have to be

17:57moving forward. So what how do you

17:59maintain stability when you're growing

18:01is yet you keep growing.

18:03So the question then what happens when

18:05the growth slows down? What happens when

18:07the bicycle slows down? What happens

18:08[clears throat] when the growth stops?

18:09What happens when the bicycle stops?

18:11Right? There's that instability. Um, my

18:14ultimate goal,

18:16um, long-term goal is to get us to

18:20stability

18:22because I know that there's people on

18:24this council that want to protect public

18:26workers and also limit tax impacts on

18:28residents.

18:30And [clears throat] the way I I look at

18:32this, and I know I've sent a lot of

18:33resources um and information, um but

18:36ultimately I would like to maximize the

18:38product productivity of our limited land

18:40now that growth is slowing. That's kind

18:43of the big um

18:45uh philosophy because I think if we

18:50the more we can maximize the

18:52productivity of the land, the less we

18:54put ourselves in um dire straits, so to

18:58speak.

18:59Um, and uh, yeah, I don't want to

19:03sacrifice the long-term fiscal health

19:05um, of our of our community.

19:11>> Thank you.

19:14>> Again, on the screen is what each of you

19:16sort of responded to definition of

19:18success. I'm not going to read that to

19:20you, but if you want to take a minute to

19:21look at that. Um, some similarities,

19:24some differences. Um, I think a lot of

19:26opportunity there, but I'll just give

19:28that to you for a minute to take a look

19:30at

19:36you would like to comment on yours or

19:38someone else's. I think that's a good

19:40opportunity to talk to

19:42>> I'll comment I'll comment on my whole

19:44survey for ply I think I told um

19:47Harrison this I did it on my phone when

19:50I was on vacation and the first time I

19:52did it somehow I got out of it and I it

19:56didn't save anything and I had to back

19:58in. So, my answers were incredibly

20:00short. So, um

20:02>> I'm looking to see if online are going

20:04to be blank.

20:06>> No. Yeah,

20:09>> I don't know how I missed this one.

20:11>> So, anyhow, but um so that's why mine is

20:14just kind of short and blunt there. But,

20:18but this idea of um a philosophy moving

20:22forward, you know, again, back to Ann's

20:24comments, um you know, incorporates a

20:27lot that one that one little statement

20:31and so um um I think that really is

20:34important and back to TJ's comments

20:36about

20:38we do work as a group and a team and you

20:40have to come to consensus you really

20:42have to for

20:44um for the public's benefit and I think

20:48for a better solution um and you know as

20:52it comes to the budget there there are

20:56times I have not been really happy with

20:58things that have been in the budget over

21:00the years, but um you know, I realize

21:03that certain things are more important

21:05to others on council than maybe to me

21:09and not everything I want has gotten

21:11into the budget and I I understand why

21:14that happens too. And yet I have always

21:17voted on the budget because I understand

21:19the importance of it and what it means

21:22and what it means to the community when

21:25when we unanimous votes. And I have said

21:28that others have heard me say this

21:29before. I totally understand not

21:32everything can be unanimous. I've not

21:35always gone along with the majority. Um

21:38I I totally understand that. But the

21:40more we can get there, the better the

21:45message is for our community and and

21:47honestly, I think the better it is for

21:50us as a working group. So just my two

21:54cents on

21:54>> I think what you have Liz gets it said

21:57and if my if I had a comment there

21:59that's exactly what it would say. It's

22:02the two things. Consensus on the budget

22:04philosophy which is I think is what is

22:07going to drive consensus on the budget

22:10and as we move forward which that's what

22:13that's what we're deciding. How do we

22:15move forward? I I mean yeah that's what

22:18mine would say too.

22:24All right next slide.

22:28All right. All right. So again, today

22:29we're going to discuss obviously

22:31whatever you would like to discuss, but

22:33these are some of the buckets we sort of

22:35shared and would suggest. Um, you know,

22:37the service assessment focus, what's

22:39working, where refinements could be

22:40done, um, how do those service levels

22:43work back towards long-term goals, the

22:45strategic plan, your overall vision for

22:47the budget for the community, [snorts]

22:49and then within that, the budget

22:51overview. Um, again, Micah is going to

22:53share a lot of information with you.

22:54You've got a handout in front of you

22:56that goes into some of that level of

22:57detail. and we can dig a little bit

23:00deeper if you'd like to, but there's a

23:03lot a lot of information behind that

23:05that is probably overwhelming at some

23:07point. And so I think for the purposes

23:09of today, we're happy to answer specific

23:11questions, but want to talk in sort of

23:14those areas of we invest in training, we

23:17[snorts] invest in, you know, travel

23:18that goes with that, we invest in

23:20transportation. um as opposed to, you

23:22know, what are those three classes that

23:24that fireman or inspector or whoever

23:27went to. Um third, again, we talked a

23:30little bit about the council philosophy.

23:32I think some of that will come out

23:33during the day, but then we'll also

23:35particularly talk about it after lunch.

23:37And then that community engagement,

23:39what's that vision look like moving

23:41forward? How do we better partner with

23:42you as council members to do additional

23:45and ideally more effective outreach to

23:47the community? Um I think council member

23:50mentioned it, others have certainly

23:52talked about it. Rather than set an

23:54example, rather than just ask

23:56[clears throat] what do you want? Well,

23:58what do you want and are you willing to

23:59pay for it or what are you willing to

24:00trade off and what is the impact of

24:02that? So, again, when we get to this

24:04afternoon, assuming there's time, we got

24:06some ideas and suggestions and then that

24:08will continue. We will start that work,

24:10you know, this fall. I mean, this

24:12doesn't have to wait until spring. We

24:13have opportunities to have um invites to

24:17get people in to start talking about

24:19what's import

24:21a little more conceptually until we have

24:23you know specific numbers but again

24:24that's still information I think that's

24:26worth

24:39you please talk a little bit louder

24:41especially when you're facing away it's

24:42a big room

24:44>> so [clears throat] what I'm saying is

24:45sooner we start this process is better

24:48because I hear a lot about

24:50We want to do this because that's what

24:52community wants based on

24:56regardless of how small is that's what

25:00we

25:03get.

25:09>> One thing I'd like to say about that is

25:10that that is a data point. I never just

25:14because of a survey especially because

25:16of small sample sizes. That's a data

25:18point. That's driving our decisions.

25:21>> We're

25:22so I just want to make sure that we're

25:23very clear that that's not the only

25:26reason we're doing it. Um we don't hear

25:28just from surveys. Each of us here in

25:31the community and we see what people

25:33attend, things like that. So that's just

25:35a really fine point, but I think it's

25:36important to just note that the surveys

25:39are important and we value that input as

25:41a data point.

25:43Thank you, sir. That's a great thing to

25:45share. earlier is better and that's what

25:47we're going to be talking about later in

25:48the day about how we engage a little bit

25:51more robustly.

25:53>> Can you just explain Brandon just a

25:55little bit of the the what you were you

25:58all were thinking when you put the

26:00council philosophy third rather than

26:03first.

26:04>> That's really just the order in which

26:05we're discussing it today. That's not an

26:07order of priorities. That's just align

26:09generally speaking with because I feel

26:11like the way we talked about that was

26:13that we want you to as much information

26:16as you can. We thought the first thing

26:18to start with was this sort of dive into

26:20the budget to understand expenditures

26:22and investments, understand revenues and

26:25that gives you some idea of what can we

26:27and can't we do globally, you know, plow

26:30level. Um so to have that and to

26:32understand, you know, what the staffing

26:34picture looks like right now is one, you

26:36know, important component of that. And

26:38then that allows you to move into a

26:39conversation about the philosophy if

26:41there's folks that might be better

26:43informed from that process.

26:46>> I think it sits one way half does the

26:48other. But again, I think some of that's

26:50going to happen through conversations

26:51like this.

26:52>> I think as a group we generally react

26:55better to things than just starting from

26:57nothing. Correct. I think I agree that

27:00getting us refreshed on budget stuff

27:02will help us to say this is why I think

27:05this and align values with our

27:07statements.

27:08>> Agreed.

27:10Any other questions here?

27:15[clears throat]

27:16>> All right. So, at this point, I'm going

27:17to turn it over. Sorry, Mike is ready to

27:20go, which I love. Um he is ready to do

27:22this. So, again, um you would ask for

27:25some more information about not just

27:27it's a $60.4 million budget, but what

27:30what's in that budget? You know, we talk

27:32about some things that are new and

27:33different, but we don't always talk

27:35about the things that are always there.

27:37Um, and again, we want to make sure that

27:38you have that understanding,

27:40particularly for our newer council

27:41members who haven't helped build these

27:43budgets over years, but really for

27:44everybody to level set. So, I'm going to

27:46turn it to Micah. By going to support

27:48him, and we'll be over here.

27:51>> Well, thank you, Brandon. Yeah. So, as

27:53you said, the next portion of today's

27:55presentation is the budget breakdown.

27:57Um, we hope with the information

27:58provided in the FAQ document as well as

28:01the handout that we be able to meet some

28:03of the session goals listed here. First,

28:06being able to assess how resources are

28:08allocated within the town. Understand

28:10the spectrum of budget expense

28:12categories, which would be recurring

28:14versus our one-time expenditures as well

28:16as to identify the budget drivers that

28:18cannot be reduced. We are kind of

28:20talking about it as discretionary

28:22non-discretionary spending and then

28:25finally to discuss our commitment to

28:26special initiatives. So what are the

28:28true costs related to those items that

28:30the town is investing?

28:33So looking at our organizational

28:35expenditures summary um as we were kind

28:38of developing this framework we were

28:40hoping to hammer home what are our base

28:43level expenditures that we must do

28:45year-over-year and then moving further

28:47down the spectrum what are some things

28:48that are a little bit more flexible.

28:50where is the town going above and

28:51beyond. Um so we kind of started from

28:54that framework and we're able to develop

28:55these six different categories and that

28:58is reflected in this handout that we

29:00provided to you today as well. The first

29:02being our basic department functions at

29:0553.4 million. Um and included in that is

29:09the approved base budget. A large

29:11portion of that is personnel at 34.6

29:14million as well as the other obligations

29:16that our departments need to function um

29:18with their basic level service delivery

29:21and I included there as well is our debt

29:23service.

29:25Next category two are tools.

29:27>> Excuse me.

29:28>> Yeah, of course.

29:29>> Um that doesn't add up to 53.4 million.

29:34So you say that 34 points you say that

29:3634 points you say that 34 points. You

29:39say that 34. So there's 23 uh 13 million

29:43there. What's

29:45>> Yeah.

29:46>> I mean I'm going to understand this like

29:48let's understand.

29:48>> No no it's a great question and those

29:50are kind of the other obligations. So in

29:53this handout on the top left side that

29:56provides a little bit more detail. So

29:58that is exactly [clears throat] you know

29:59what is making up that 53.4 million and

30:02that that's kind of where what that

30:03number comes from.

30:04>> Thank you. That's my dad.

30:06>> Great question.

30:08C in the second category. Yeah.

30:11>> Also, you all just feel free to

30:13interrupt us. This is [clears throat]

30:15excuse me. This is your session. We want

30:17like not to kind of go like we normally

30:19do where you all let us kind of go

30:20through a presentation and ask

30:21questions. You all feel free to

30:23interrupt us. Yes, ma'am. Uh, council

30:25member Scott Johnson

30:26>> for transparency

30:30are not available to the public.

30:59just

31:01>> just an idea. So it it really is just

31:03sort of basic department supplies that

31:05they need to be able to operate. So our

31:07office supplies, you know, things like

31:09paper, um you know, as well as other

31:12sort of technology needs. Um just

31:15essentially anything that sort of goes

31:16into there. um as well as any sort of um

31:20I guess the best way to to sort of look

31:22at it are things ultimately that a a

31:26department just needs to be able to sort

31:29of do things and you all definitely feel

31:31free to jump in with any sort of basic

31:33level

31:35>> uniform

31:40>> it's included in this total list it's

31:42actually down further in the um the tech

31:45software and subscription

31:59possibly

32:08what I'm doing

32:13office

32:26So you want a little bit more detail

32:28about what the general department

32:29supplies are.

32:31>> I don't need numbers. Just

32:33>> Okay. Okay. We can certainly provide a

32:35list for you.

32:41>> Can we actually can we just like every

32:43every once a month can we do a I know

32:46you said we can interrupt,

32:48but it [clears throat] might be really

32:49good to take a pause and say, "Okay, do

32:52do we all um do we understand this

32:55philosophy of a base budget and what's

32:58in it and are we all good with that? Do

33:00we have any questions? What does that

33:01include? Doesn't include just like a

33:03sheet just asked about, but that was

33:05over professional development." But

33:08anyhow, could we just do that every once

33:10in a while? I think

33:11>> yes,

33:11>> I think that's going to be really

33:13important. from the fire. Some of us

33:16more than others, I'm sure. But um

33:20one of my observations

33:22about the roles and responsibilities of

33:26you know staff and council and so forth

33:29is when you're listing staff obligations

33:33in new things and that we never have a

33:38check of existing programs and services.

33:43It's those existing programs and

33:45services that is the foundation of our

33:47base and that has been the issue is we

33:51have so many you know we want new things

33:54but our obligations kind of weigh us

33:57down that's why we're here today at

33:59least that's why I'm here today is

34:01because I'm looking at the base with a

34:04little more

34:06and just because we've always done it

34:09doesn't mean we should do it in the

34:11future and with my council

34:15I'm not always looking at

34:19more detail and question, do we still

34:22need it? Has our community changed? Are

34:25there different priorities?

34:27And so digging into that base is

34:30something that is interest

34:36manager made it very clear that this

34:38time they did a real scrub of base and

34:42in the past I think they do that every

34:44year. So

34:46>> but we do need to let the residents know

34:48that we are keeping an eye on it and we

34:49are representing them and making sure

34:51that that stuff is happening.

34:53>> I I appreciate your comment.

34:58However,

34:59I'm obligated as representing the public

35:02to understand just like council member

35:05Patel said and just because staff did

35:08scrubbing they are scrubbing based on

35:10the council priorities and if the

35:13council doesn't question their own

35:14priorities then it's never going to

35:18change. So in order to better understand

35:22how we need to prioritize and evaluate

35:27needs to do the homework too. It's not

35:29just

35:32every year we need to challenge

35:34ourselves because things change.

35:38You know, we have a lot of challenges

35:40right now.

35:42>> That's why today is so important.

35:44>> I I think I've looked at the step and I

35:47don't think we've gone far enough and

35:51those points of opportunity are going to

35:53be pointing them out. I think that

35:57I need more detail in order to

36:00assess what we do today. So that

36:11so that second category we wanted to

36:13pull out some of our tools, our public

36:16safety related equipment as well as

36:18personal protective equipment. Those

36:20components kind of necessary to service

36:22delivery there. So some examples, more

36:26specific examples there would be

36:28ammunition, squat equipment, drug test

36:30kits, K9 supplies. Um an easy example

36:34for personal protective equipment would

36:36be steel toe shoes. So think things

36:38along that nature are kind of what fits

36:40in this category.

36:41>> I'm sorry, could you repeat that example

36:44to shoes?

36:45>> Steel toe shoes. Okay. Thank you.

36:46>> Yes.

36:47>> So that is kind of demonstrates, you

36:49know, what what are we investing um in

36:52both safety to our staff as well as

36:54safety to the public.

36:57Uh category number three is professional

36:59development and retention. So those are

37:01our certifications, our training and

37:03preparedness as well as continuous

37:06innovation growth. That's investment in

37:08staff in their own professional

37:10development as well as fit for items

37:12that may be required for their

37:14certifications to maintain and do their

37:16job well. So that that's what that

37:18category is at $760,000.

37:21What is

37:26>> that would be our more of our

37:27professional develop development side of

37:30things. So investing in staff to

37:32continue training.

37:38>> Yes, that's that's the broader category.

37:40Yes.

37:52So our fourth category we wanted to call

37:54out our fleet expense expenses. So that

37:56would be our money that we need to

37:59replace our vehicles, money required for

38:01our new vehicles for our new staff that

38:03are coming on board maintenance as well

38:05as the cost for fuel. So that was pretty

38:08straightforward, but that comes in at

38:10$670,000.

38:12>> And we'll say we do have here and

38:17here. We will spend some time on a

38:20couple council members asking about

38:22that.

38:24We have that.

38:28Category number five are our new and

38:32enhanced services approximately 2.6

38:35million. So those are the new programs

38:37that we have invested in as well as

38:39smart shuttle. An example there also is

38:42affordable housing. Um so that that is

38:46Also another example is a sustainability

38:48master plan. So this those are some um

38:50items that we have that we've designated

38:53as a little bit more flexible because

38:55those are the things where the town may

38:56be going above and beyond that core

38:58level function delivery of our

39:00department. Then category number six

39:03that is our transfers out at 2.4

39:06million. Those are our capital reserves.

39:08So that would be the park reserve

39:09transfer, the public safety reserve

39:12transfer as well as the transportation

39:13reserve transfer.

39:17That that's kind of all that fits into

39:19that that six

39:26or

39:28>> these are our current 27 budget.

39:34>> Just for the recording recognize that

39:35council member Gara has joined us. Thank

39:38you very much. Welcome.

39:42Moving

39:45into our next slide, we wanted to call

39:47out in a little bit more detail our

39:49non-discretionary spending or what we

39:51consider to be some of our required

39:52costs. So up at the top that is a great

39:55example is our legally required

39:57functions and safety compliance costs,

39:59storm water requirements, ocean

40:01compliance, financial assistance. We

40:03cannot operate in our department without

40:04a financial system. That's something we

40:06use day in day out and that's great

40:08example to point out. There's a couple

40:11examples there as well. Right under that

40:13is our contractual obligations. Big one

40:16being debt service uh leases. An example

40:19of one of our leases is the senior

40:20center property outsource solid waste

40:23services. We contract with GFL. So that

40:25that is big cost there. Legal services,

40:28liability property and insurance and

40:30then workers comp. So that's kind of

40:32what fits into that contractual

40:33obligation area.

40:36Below that also is our required

40:38personnel cost FICA retirement.

40:42um the required cert certifications and

40:45trainings.

40:46Beneath that is our essential operations

40:48necessary to keep buildings operable. So

40:50that's kind of your base level utility

40:52cost as well as the maintenance required

40:54to patch a hole in the roof that needs

40:56to happen.

40:58And then finally our compliance driven

41:00expenses. Uh two examples there are our

41:02public notices and the advertisings that

41:04need to be put up related to that.

41:19Yes. So that would fit into our basic

41:21department functions for the most part.

41:24So that would be approximately 53.4

41:26billion.

41:29>> I have a comary.

41:33I think there is a discretionary

41:35component in the sense of level of

41:39service. So we do have an obligation to

41:42provide key services as a government

41:45entity. However, the level of service

41:47and the way or the method of delivering

41:51the service can be variable. So

41:56that is something that we should

41:59consider as well with AI. I need to put

42:03that out there this early in the

42:04morning. But

42:07we perhaps have some opportunities for

42:10some efficiencies that will allow us to

42:12deliver services in this

42:14nondiscretionary category in a different

42:17way

42:19that might save us time.

42:25>> And also in the contractual obligation

42:27section, I think we need to look at like

42:31the outsource solid waste services are a

42:34great example. What what services are we

42:36providing that our neighbor communities

42:38are not providing? And you know, I mean,

42:42we've provided those services for a

42:44really long time. Is that is that still

42:46appropriate? Is that still something we

42:48should be doing? And also, you raise it.

42:52I know we don't want to talk about AI

42:53this early in the morning, but I

42:54actually want to talk about AI all the

42:55time. So, so

42:59I think we I think AI is fantastic and I

43:02use it myself all the time. But I do

43:04think that we need to understand the

43:07significant level of investment that is

43:10required to get people to the place

43:14where they can use AI effectively to

43:17actually streamline work. So there's AI

43:20that will write a press release for you

43:22and then you just check it over. but AI

43:25that actually streamlines work like

43:27putting a neural network into a

43:29budgeting a budgeting process etc.

43:35You can't just do that because you have

43:37check GBT. And so I think that I think

43:42yes, absolutely there are probably

43:46significant cost savings and

43:48productivity enhancements

43:52out there. But to I don't think and I'm

43:56sure Brandon will correct me if I'm

43:57wrong, but I don't think that we have at

44:00this time the staff expertise to execute

44:04that. So, so we're talking about we

44:08might be talking about spending money to

44:09make money, either hiring someone or

44:14skilling up someone. my vast preference

44:17skilling up someone

44:19but skilling up someone that's a systems

44:22administrator to

44:25AI architect is a costly process and I

44:29just you know I just think we need to

44:31understand what we're talking about when

44:33we say let's save money with AI because

44:36it's not as easy as it looks so

44:42oh yeah we all have those

44:44Okay.

44:45Okay. So,

44:47>> um sorry I I was late but uh

44:51I agree with an that

44:57look at the holistic view. I talked to

45:00Brandon already on this is um

45:04there's so much that you know AI can

45:08give us. Genie works on all the slides.

45:11It's a click of a button. you you put it

45:14you get it you know dashboards PowerBI

45:17everything is click of a button so look

45:21at that point of view like you can have

45:23it in inspections you know saying which

45:26ones are compliant which ones are not

45:28you know like you don't

45:31a year ago um when I was working at GSK

45:34like they said oh this is chat GPT you

45:38know they used to make fun of us and now

45:41like the new trend is AI first human

45:43later and and I think that's the trend

45:46that we had to start looking at because

45:50um it's only helps to enhance and give

45:53quicker productivity

45:55um we talk a lot about how our IT and

45:59smart city initiatives and all those

46:01things I think this is just a component

46:04that adds into it. I think we have a

46:07fantastic IT that can easily train the

46:10rest of the people here or take use

46:13cases and use us any one of us that's my

46:17bread and butter that we do um you know

46:21like

46:23so so

46:25I don't want to go again and again but

46:26there are so many things especially when

46:29you start looking at the jobs you start

46:31looking at this one essential services

46:33are different you can't replace AI with

46:36the police guy or a fire department, you

46:39know, a public works, you know, so those

46:41kind of things is more on the back end

46:43to basically ensure

46:47Brandon has spent so much time every

46:50time we send an email basically he has

46:53to send it to the staff and staff

46:54basically does it and comes back and

46:56this one so it's so much staff

46:57productivity is lost in that he doesn't

47:00have to do that like you know or we

47:02don't we don't even have to go to

47:03Brandon this is you know just do a

47:05search which is internal to town of Mars

47:09not outside. So you can just do a

47:11regular search. There are conferential

47:14documents you don't need to open up to

47:16the chat. So all kinds of things can be

47:19done. So that basically takes a lot of

47:21your workload out those kind of things.

47:23I think we we need a complete different

47:25workshop on AI and sitting with the IT

47:28staff to see we can talk all day but I

47:30want to also hear from them what is

47:33possible what is not because we are

47:35talking corporate accounts and these are

47:36government accounts. So both are work a

47:38little different. So that I'll just stop

47:41there.

47:42>> Okay. I'm the first one to stop when

47:45somebody's taking us down a rabbit hole.

47:47And now I'm diving into this one and the

47:49irony is not lost on me. But

47:53okay,

47:56the Jeanie's developing a presentation.

48:00It's a click of a button. If Judy has

48:03already set up an MCP server for the

48:06SharePoint that all the files that she

48:08needs are are

48:11housed it and has already imported all

48:14the branding information into the AI and

48:17has set up a project or an agent to keep

48:20that information fresh. It's and and to

48:23make sure that she's complied with the

48:25legal, the ethical, the

48:29the reputational, the financial that

48:33that AI is cognizant of all of those

48:35risks. It

48:38I I'll say it again. Our IT staff,

48:40brilliant as they are, and God knows

48:42Rick has like really upleveled that

48:45department so significantly. I'm going

48:48to say that a

48:50I don't think that it AI training from

48:53our staff is going to move the needle

48:56significantly in what people can

48:59accomplish in that work. And also, I

49:02want to stress that that the AI

49:05literally replaces nobody. It it allows

49:09you to focus on the more strategic work

49:11and the the the the

49:14work that requires your expertise, your

49:17insights that that AI doesn't

49:21understand. It always it will be human

49:24after all. It's never going to be let's

49:26bring in AI to replace all this

49:29it. That's not it. It's how can we

49:33maximize the productivity and the

49:36efficiency of the staff that we have

49:38now. But I I don't think it's our

49:41current IT department leading that

49:43charge.

49:48>> So, let me put a pin in this because

49:50this is more council in section three.

49:53>> That was me.

49:55>> Go ahead. Your fault.

49:56>> So,

49:58Yes,

50:01it actually training

50:04is more important.

50:10You have to have agents

50:13all

50:25but AI can future

50:31because it

50:39can make one question make one comment

50:42before we move from this slide because I

50:44just want to go back and echo um what

50:47Vicki said. These all are required costs

50:50but to what level

50:53we fund them

50:56can be different and can change. So I

50:58[snorts] think that's really important.

51:00So while this these are required costs,

51:04they they are still under scrutiny and

51:06questionable and I think we all need to

51:11I I would hope we're all going to do

51:14that moving forward.

51:16>> Yeah. And as an FAQ, can we get more

51:19granular on the required personal cost

51:22like how much every year and those kind

51:25of things split?

51:27like as a FAQ later on

51:30>> required personal cost

51:32>> like split because usually we get like

51:34okay this is this much million you know

51:36>> like total compensation

51:38>> yeah like just I need like okay this

51:40much the town contributes to this much

51:43you know to the retirement contribution

51:46those kind of splits.

51:50All right. So, jumping into our items

51:55that could be considered discretionary

51:57costs or a little bit more optional. The

52:00top is special programs and initiatives

52:03that are not required by law for new

52:05services offerings. Two examples

52:07provided there are things related to

52:09sustainability and then affordable

52:10housing is included there. Right beneath

52:13that, new amenities, expanded hours for

52:16our public basic departments, added

52:18routes to the transit service.

52:24Also, new initiatives, pilot programs,

52:27community enhancements. The example

52:29righted there is the mural and icon art

52:31pilots

52:32capital projects that are electives. So

52:34some of our park enhancements, optional

52:36facility upgrades, and the very bottom

52:39enhanced service levels above legal

52:41requirements. Um extra landscaping

52:44around town owned property recycling

52:46frequency that is something that was

52:47kind of brought up earlier looking into

52:49our solid waste obligations and how

52:51frequent that might need to

52:52beautifification

52:54as well as transit.

52:57just example

53:20to discretionary.

53:23So essentially if our non-discretionary

53:25funds are the 53.4

53:28um then essentially the other you know

53:30$7 million that we have makes up roughly

53:33discretionary spending

53:36and obviously that goes you know from

53:39things that are a little bit sort of in

53:41the middle there. uh things like PPE,

53:44things like professional development

53:45that are certifications that are

53:46required for staff to consider um you

53:49know certain levels of service that they

53:51ultimately provide to the community um

53:54as well as other things like uh ISO

53:56ratings or um you know accreditation

54:00when it comes to uh specific departments

54:02and then you get into things that are a

54:04little bit more discretionary uh those

54:07newer enhanced services um that

54:09ultimately we provide that maybe we

54:11haven't provided

54:12or things that you know the community

54:14has asked for but is it necessary in

54:16order to keep the lights on. Um that's

54:18where you know it gets a little bit

54:20further to the right. So ultimately this

54:22graph and this is you know for

54:23everybody's edification and I know you

54:25all see it but we tried to move from the

54:27things that are most important things we

54:29have to do to things that are a little

54:31bit more optional things that you all

54:33have discretion over and have the

54:34ability to pull those levers in order to

54:36either um you know generate additional

54:38capacity in the budget or cut

54:45And so with that, I'll actually move

54:48back to this uh slide with these with

54:51these uh session goals that we have for

54:52the budget breakdown and just sort of

54:54give you all an opportunity to ask any

54:56other questions. Um discuss any more.

54:59Obviously, I can go back to any of those

55:01other three slides if you all need

55:02reference points. Um, you all have your

55:04handout here with the breakdowns for

55:06each of these different categories and

55:08just feel free to ask or or discuss as

55:11you as you see fit.

55:18>> So I have a question.

55:27>> Yes. So a lot of our software does fit

55:30into a script a subscription model a

55:32subscription um you know ultimately a a

55:35service model. So whether that is just

55:38um you know cloud-based subscriptions or

55:41you know us honestly all of it is really

55:44cloud-based subscriptions but um a lot

55:46of it fits into that category. So, for

55:47instance, our financial system, our ERP

55:49system is a cloud-based service. Um, and

55:52we pay a subscription fee for that every

55:54year. Uh, that helps cover our

55:55maintenance and the basic operation of

55:57the program. Uh, you know, we have other

55:59programs that that fit into that same

56:01category as well. Our HR software, uh,

56:04fits into that category. And so, we we

56:06look at it there because there's not as

56:08much of a tangible capital aspect of our

56:11our software anymore. A lot of it just

56:13fits into that cloud-based subscription

56:15services.

56:17I can also offer an example. Uh so we

56:20have some limitations with Microsoft

56:22Office uh Outlook which is our email

56:25service that we use with the town um and

56:28limitations set for valid reasons

56:30because we're a government entity. So we

56:32have a subscription in communications

56:34and we use Mailchimp and that's how we

56:37maintain all of our mailing list for our

56:39external uh email distributions um so

56:42our newsletters. So you know uh Outlook,

56:46we're limited to

56:48I forget the number, but it's several

56:51dozen that you can include in one

56:53particular uh email distribution. In

56:55Mailchimp, we can send an email to

56:57thousands at one time. So, that's a

57:00subscription that we have

57:01>> and there's charge for co-pilot. It's

57:03not by default for every 60 bucks or

57:06something a month. That's pretty high.

57:09So,

57:28>> so essentially this this past year we

57:30funded uh what was called tablet command

57:32and chief you want to kind of explain

57:34what tablet command is just at a high

57:37level.

57:37>> Sure. high level. It's an accountability

57:39system for us. It's also a way for us to

57:41maintain operations on scene. So, if

57:44we're in an emergency, we're able to

57:45track where people are real time.

57:50But it's also we for accountability

57:52always relied

58:07into

58:14>> Yes, ma'am.

58:16>> I'm just gonna give you

58:19my um items are interested

58:43in professional services.

58:47I think there is a tradeoff sometimes

58:49between hiring

58:52a person and contracting for a service.

58:55Once we have a service that we routinely

58:58use, sometimes less expensive to have an

59:03inhouse versus contract. So

59:06understanding that a little bit more

59:08would be helpful. Um maintenance and

59:12repair is an area that

59:17But I would like to see and understand

59:21what kind of expectations there are for

59:24maintained

59:38[clears throat] on the replacement cycle

59:41replacement cycle. Replacement cycle

59:44replacement cycle.

59:46you more aggressively

59:48elongate their replacement.

59:53Um the fleet replacement

59:56policy is fairly new. So it's a good

1:00:00opportunity maybe to reassess that

1:00:02[cough] working

1:00:04travel and training break down. I know

1:00:07that you have certification training

1:00:10that's required for certain staff um

1:00:15There's also optional

1:00:17training that might enhance things. We

1:00:21need to kind of look at that in general.

1:00:23What is a policy?

1:00:25Um,

1:00:27and

1:00:29I think that I'd like to better

1:00:32understand why transit is considered an

1:00:35enhanced service because as we paid

1:00:39taxes to Wake County, they provided us

1:00:42with some initial money to

1:00:44shuttle and they rolled that back now

1:00:49shuttle and we're the entire cost. So it

1:00:54doesn't make sense to me that it's

1:00:56optional for our town and county is not

1:01:00providing any support. So I know that

1:01:06I see

1:01:08you know

1:01:09all

1:01:14There isn't more.

1:01:17>> You want to understand why there's not

1:01:18more support from White County?

1:01:20>> Yes. Because it's in their best interest

1:01:22to move people around as well.

1:01:28I'm a little

1:01:32I think these are expenses and the

1:01:35revenue side shows that they give us

1:01:37half. Is that correct? So they are

1:01:40funding it partially.

1:01:42>> We do receive I'll let Michelle correct

1:01:44me when I'm wrong, but we do receive

1:01:45funding from primarily through

1:01:50that actually just went off a little bit

1:01:52here.

1:01:56>> Yeah, sure. So, the overall budget is

1:01:59over a million um for the smart shuttle.

1:02:02Um and historically we got 50%

1:02:04reimbursement for operating expenses.

1:02:06That this year has gone up to 65% plus

1:02:10um we're now getting reallocation

1:02:12funding moving forward which is another

1:02:14couple hundred thousand. So next year's

1:02:17smart shuttle budget um is actually less

1:02:21than fiscal year um 26

1:02:24um because of the added percentage that

1:02:28um is coming in from the sales tax

1:02:31revenues and then the increase in the

1:02:32suballocation funding. So you're

1:02:34actually increasing service next year

1:02:36but pay less as a town.

1:02:38>> Is for giving money?

1:02:41>> They are not.

1:02:42>> What was the question? The Fords Nano

1:02:44said they would give 100,000 for a small

1:02:46as part of our

1:02:47>> Yes, I did

1:02:48>> of for part of our documentation to get

1:02:50their funding.

1:02:51>> There have been a lot of changes at the

1:02:52federal level in terms of what's being

1:02:54prioritized. So, we're not counting on

1:02:56that money coming in at this point.

1:02:58>> That is a prudent decision.

1:03:01Um but again this enhanced or new

1:03:04service for the transit I just think

1:03:11you know

1:03:13>> so we we also did look at the fact that

1:03:16um you know in particularly for this

1:03:19year we did increase the smart shuttle

1:03:22budget because we enhanced the service a

1:03:24little bit um not just from an

1:03:26operational standpoint but also from a

1:03:27node construction standpoint. Um, and so

1:03:30we're looking at those no constructions

1:03:32considering that they weren't there and

1:03:34we funded them in the budget as a new

1:03:36and enhanced service. It's not something

1:03:37that we have to do from that

1:03:39perspective.

1:03:40>> I understood that it's the 1.4 million

1:03:44all new money for

1:03:52>> and it's not all recurring. The nodes

1:03:55are the nodes are one [clears throat]

1:03:57time cost,

1:03:58>> right? Was it 1.4 million that we've

1:04:00invested this year to enhance the

1:04:02service or what is the

1:04:04>> So the the 120 that we have in capital

1:04:07outlay in the new and enhanced service

1:04:09those are that's the no construction. Um

1:04:12but no I hear you with the 1.4 million

1:04:14you're right that is encompassing the

1:04:16entire uh the entire service. Uh so

1:04:20that's certainly something if you want

1:04:21us to kind of go back and and look to

1:04:24refresh

1:04:25>> that is what I can you know evaluate

1:04:28prioritized

1:04:31new and we've been saying that but if

1:04:34it's 1.4 million I'm like well I don't

1:04:36think we need

1:04:37>> well the other thing is though that if

1:04:39we're trying to make the totals on this

1:04:41sheet come up to the 60 million then we

1:04:46need to put the whole cost of of things

1:04:50But I agree that there's a recurring and

1:04:52a one-time cost for the shuttle and if

1:04:56we're and which I totally agree that we

1:04:58should make these supplemental documents

1:05:00available to the public, but I do think

1:05:02that you know we want to make sure that

1:05:06what's on here is what's actual if

1:05:09because if you know we have recurring

1:05:12revenue for the shuttle at 1.4 million

1:05:15you know that's

1:05:17I mean I understand purpose of this

1:05:19isn't to show the this isn't really the

1:05:22budget breakdown. This is the budget

1:05:24outlay breakdown, you know.

1:05:26>> So, at the end of the day, these are the

1:05:28expenses. So, so you're right. We do

1:05:31>> we ultimately spend about 1.4 million or

1:05:34anticipate spending this year about 1.4

1:05:36million in transit service, smart shelf

1:05:38service. However, we will get roughly

1:05:40900 $950,000

1:05:43um in in revenue associated with

1:05:45>> I would I would suggest um FY27 expenses

1:05:50as the name of this spreadsheet. Okay.

1:05:52>> Rather than budget breakdown and um

1:05:56because there you know there are

1:05:59there are offsetting

1:06:02>> revenues. Thank you.

1:06:06Just for information, budgeted after

1:06:09reimbursements um that come in from

1:06:11other places. Um the amount left that

1:06:15the town is responsible for that's in

1:06:17the budget is 386,000

1:06:20and we expect it to be actually

1:06:22substantially less than that because

1:06:23that suballocation money is coming in

1:06:26higher than anticipated and we'll have

1:06:28that number firmed up for you in a

1:06:29couple weeks.

1:06:33Talking about smart shuttles, you know,

1:06:35I sit down and I watch 1.4. It's

1:06:38someone's money. Is it a taxpayers's

1:06:40money or countries money or we actually

1:06:43paid the one person transit money?

1:06:45That's basically it's coming out of

1:06:47that.

1:06:48Are we getting a good ROI out of it?

1:06:50Because when I hear each ride is like 50

1:06:54bucks, you know, so what's the point

1:06:58like you know of 50 bucks for a single

1:07:00person like a boat from going to A to B

1:07:03and it's expensive you know a Uber would

1:07:07be like five bucks within Mors

1:07:12or what or 10 bucks whatever you put it

1:07:14so that 40 50 bucks that you know and

1:07:18and my understanding is the fundings

1:07:21will dry out at some point of time but

1:07:23the operating cost will only go up. So

1:07:26but if we are not doing u more

1:07:29aggressive campaigning to get more

1:07:33ridership

1:07:35I think the taxpayers will say you know

1:07:37this is like too expensive you know it's

1:07:40a be we are talking about all these

1:07:41enhancements but if someone says do you

1:07:44know that each ride is 50 bucks I said

1:07:46why the hell do you want it

1:07:47>> I think in terms of if I think in terms

1:07:50of ROI you know some of this investment

1:07:53is to improve the service it is to

1:07:55improve improve ridership because some

1:07:57of the challenges is you know just

1:07:59running the one or the two buses is it's

1:08:01not necessarily the most efficient way

1:08:03that's why Michelle Brad the team have

1:08:05identified the minivans are the more

1:08:07efficient way to do that so we expect

1:08:09that to enhance the service and not to

1:08:11be necessarily as expensive to operate

1:08:14that's why we're also looking at the

1:08:15additional nodes to increase the

1:08:17viability of the system so I think you

1:08:20know up to this point I will agree it's

1:08:22probably been more about we want to

1:08:23provide the service as opposed to a

1:08:25really strong ROI on that. But I think

1:08:28we need the opportunity over probably

1:08:29the next 12 to 24 months to implement

1:08:32these minivans. And then ideally if

1:08:35funding does come forward to implement

1:08:37you know the third shuttle at some point

1:08:42the third vehicle that should by what

1:08:46the experts are sharing with us and even

1:08:49folks at Campo and go carry and buy that

1:08:52should help us to reduce that cost per

1:08:55ride. Now again that doesn't That's

1:08:57certainly a discussion to be had about,

1:08:59you know, when do we say enough? When do

1:09:01we say we've done what we can, but

1:09:03that's that's really on the side.

1:09:06>> Yeah. For for me, I'm not talking about

1:09:08from administrative cost or like the the

1:09:10cost. I'm more talking about the

1:09:13wrership that has to get bumped up and

1:09:16you know we have to do something

1:09:18advertise tell you know do it because I

1:09:22understand the nodes are not there but

1:09:25the first 13 14 nodes does pick up a lot

1:09:28of people dense neighborhoods and other

1:09:32things in brackenidge I see only one guy

1:09:35who has consistently used it in the

1:09:37mornings as much as like as a private

1:09:40vehicle type hardly I see you know

1:09:42coming in to bracken rage they come a

1:09:44couple of times but that's about it like

1:09:46there's you have 3,000 people no one is

1:09:49using it so how can we increase that

1:09:52from the existing and enhance note is

1:09:54what I'm talking

1:09:55>> I don't disagree I think part of that

1:09:56you know there certainly could be more

1:09:58investment in advertising but again some

1:10:01of the investment being made now is

1:10:03intended to improve that I'm confident

1:10:04that our folks in Bracken bridge and

1:10:06every other big neighborhood that have

1:10:08tried to use it and frustrated with

1:10:10that. I mean, I think we've been very

1:10:11open about that and some of the

1:10:12challenges with it. So, adding

1:10:15additional bands and enhancing that and

1:10:18having other places to stop is part of

1:10:21that. Again, do we do we want to, you

1:10:23know, invest additionally in

1:10:25advertisement. I think that's a

1:10:27conversation that's part of the FY20

1:10:29budget

1:10:30>> and also I don't think I mean I know

1:10:31today is all about the numbers but I

1:10:33don't think that we should fall into the

1:10:35trap of evaluating ROI only in dollars

1:10:38because we had always conceived the

1:10:41shuttle as a a mechanism to to move

1:10:45people around to to help people that

1:10:47were currently homebound to experience

1:10:51the community to help you know we never

1:10:54really saw the shuttle as a money maker.

1:10:56$50 a ride is too much to your point

1:10:59obviously and we have to keep in mind

1:11:01that this isn't a service that we need

1:11:03to provide forever. I have a lot of

1:11:05confidence in the changes that we're

1:11:07making in this budget year and I hope

1:11:09that we continue to see increased

1:11:11ridership. If we don't, you know, then

1:11:13yeah, that's a conversation. But I but

1:11:15the ROI of the shuttle, I think, goes

1:11:18beyond

1:11:19like are we recouping the dollars?

1:11:23I

1:11:39>> wanted to add something on this

1:11:41discussion that we're having about the

1:11:43budget. Um,

1:11:45and I reiterate what I said earlier

1:11:47because I I I left out something that I

1:11:49think is important. I had mentioned

1:11:50protecting public workers. um limiting

1:11:52tax impacts on residents, you know,

1:11:54people care about that. Um certainly

1:11:56this conversation about the transit

1:11:57service protecting services that goes

1:11:59into there as well. Um maximizing the

1:12:01productivity of land is good. Um this

1:12:03is, you know, one way we can talk about

1:12:04doing that so that we can do all of it.

1:12:07It's one um with our budget break or

1:12:11with the budget and budget philosophy.

1:12:13Um the budget is a short-term document.

1:12:15Um, and I ultimately would like our

1:12:18philosophy uh to be gleaned to be

1:12:21informed by trends gleaned from the

1:12:22historic annual comprehensive financial

1:12:24reports. Um, and I know I've shared the

1:12:27the strong town stuff and I'm going to

1:12:28speak like Rocky from uh uh project hail

1:12:32mary but um this is you know uh just

1:12:37trend data from the annual comprehensive

1:12:38transportation or annual comprehensive

1:12:41um financial report. So you know number

1:12:43go down bad number go up good number go

1:12:47down make town weak question number go

1:12:49up make town strong question why number

1:12:52go down question how make number go up

1:12:54question what budget decisions do to

1:12:56number question how make budget

1:12:58decisions that make number go up and not

1:13:00down question and I feel like this is a

1:13:02free tool that we have that we'll be

1:13:06talking about it more in the work

1:13:07session on next week so I'll be

1:13:08presenting it but u especially as we're

1:13:10talking about AI

1:13:12Are there simple tools that we can use

1:13:13to have a more long-term outlook on our

1:13:17um financial future now that the growth

1:13:20is slowing down?

1:13:23>> Show of hands. Who wants Harrison to

1:13:25talk like Rocky all the time? Because I

1:13:27would be very into that.

1:13:29>> What a great book. What a great movie.

1:13:32>> Yeah, I was gonna say I read it first.

1:13:34Amazing.

1:13:38>> Very clear.

1:13:41don't talk like Rocky all the time.

1:13:44I mean, you get into some complicated

1:13:46stuff with this and but it's supposed to

1:13:49simplify a lot of complex conversations

1:13:52down into something that um uh one can

1:13:56inform those short-term decisions to

1:13:58make sure that we're um protecting the

1:14:00long-term uh fiscal reality, but then

1:14:02also being able to translate that into

1:14:05ways that our residents can can easily

1:14:08comprehend

1:14:09>> and that we're having the impact we

1:14:10think we're having.

1:14:11>> Exactly. Yeah.

1:14:18All right. So, any other uh discussions

1:14:21about the budget breakdown, about any of

1:14:23the information in this expense

1:14:26worksheet?

1:14:29>> No, let's talk about the fleet.

1:14:41First I would like to see

1:14:45how much

1:14:53again.

1:15:00So is it subset of what we have

1:15:05functions?

1:15:08Yes,

1:15:09>> I can talk a little bit about that.

1:15:10Included in that is money related with

1:15:14the retention piece. So that meeting um

1:15:18and event provisions, so things for

1:15:20food, for staff in order whenever we

1:15:22meet um as well as some other costs

1:15:27related to some of the uniforms there.

1:15:28So that that's more of the retention

1:15:30piece to help support staff morale

1:15:33rather than the training travel

1:15:35component.

1:15:36Okay.

1:15:42>> So yeah, so that is costs um for our

1:15:46leadership academy succession planning

1:15:48um and [clears throat] retreat costs are

1:15:50also in that line.

1:16:02>> Yes. So in this particular line under

1:16:05the professional development retention.

1:16:06Um that money is specifically for

1:16:09retreat facilitator.

1:16:12That's what's included in that contract

1:16:14professional services there.

1:16:17We have sometimes brought in a

1:16:18facilitator to assist with a retreat

1:16:21whether it's on a specific topic or an

1:16:24entire day. We haven't done that in the

1:16:26last couple of years. I actually reached

1:16:29out to somebody this afternoon.

1:16:35But we have used

1:16:37facilitators in the past

1:16:40conversation.

1:16:43>> So I think I think you already provided

1:16:45some of this during the whole budget

1:16:47process. Can you can you give us this

1:16:51again but with every category with an

1:16:54explanation because I think that would

1:16:56be helpful

1:16:58>> um to understand what's in each and

1:17:01every

1:17:02>> not asking about each one any

1:17:05>> not a breakdown but

1:17:11>> no

1:17:15so we have the budget which is really

1:17:17detailed and then we have this. Are you

1:17:20guys asking for something kind of in the

1:17:21middle?

1:17:22>> I I think you're just just really asking

1:17:24for a kind of an overview, a description

1:17:26of what's included in the category,

1:17:29>> right?

1:17:31>> Right. And I don't I don't think we need

1:17:34or want a line item budget to look at,

1:17:38but a description of what's included in

1:17:40every category would be helpful because

1:17:43I agree there there are contract and

1:17:45professional services and and

1:17:49>> yeah, what does it mean?

1:17:51>> What does it mean here? What does it

1:17:52mean over there? I think just a

1:17:55description would be really helpful.

1:17:57>> Yeah, we can we can certainly

1:17:59[clears throat] do that. um the digital

1:18:01copy that you all were provided, we did

1:18:03add notes in there. We didn't want it to

1:18:04get too busy. So, there are notes uh you

1:18:07know, as far as cell references go, that

1:18:09does sort of break a little bit of that

1:18:11down, but we can certainly enumerate

1:18:12that, especially if you all want this as

1:18:14a public document for the uh uh for

1:18:16dissemination on the website.

1:18:21>> An extension of that as well is how

1:18:24effect number.

1:18:27I'm sorry.

1:18:28>> I said how effect number but essentially

1:18:31how does how do these budget decisions

1:18:33that we're making how do these things

1:18:34impact the long-term fiscal health of

1:18:36the community?

1:18:38from how effect

1:18:41>> for that to be made public and that

1:18:43maybe might be a good starting point for

1:18:44our January retreat to sort of touch on

1:18:48this again at that detail level as they

1:18:51bring forward what that by 28 will look

1:18:52like at that level instead of quite this

1:18:56high help us to start those discussions

1:18:58in January does that make sense

1:19:00>> well but also I think there's a fine

1:19:01line between understanding what's in

1:19:04each category and the the fact that it

1:19:09is the purview of the department heads

1:19:12and the admin the high level staff the

1:19:15senior leadership team to to do what

1:19:19they think is appropriate in each

1:19:20category like I I think that I'm not

1:19:23sure that it's appropriate to go into

1:19:26for us to go into a line by line budget

1:19:28analysis of what's in every category but

1:19:31I mean obviously we should understand

1:19:33what's in every category but I mean the

1:19:37reason that we have a senior leadership

1:19:39team is so that we can trust them to

1:19:43make good decisions about and do what's

1:19:47required like obviously we should

1:19:49>> and I agree with you it's just going

1:19:52back to my initial point about the level

1:19:55of service is what we're requiring of

1:19:58them to meet and that is associated with

1:20:01both cost time and money

1:20:02>> right [snorts]

1:20:03>> and we understand the categories that

1:20:06are presented to us, we can better

1:20:08understand our decisions and associated

1:20:11with that

1:20:13>> and if what we're asking of them is

1:20:15still

1:20:15>> right. So I'm like sure I would love to

1:20:18have a you know that you know a show for

1:20:22service transit kind of doortodoor but

1:20:26it's going to cost five times

1:20:29if I

1:20:31break down. is just a silly example, but

1:20:34it helps us.

1:20:36>> Yeah, Brian. Um, this contractor and

1:20:38professional services, it says 9300.

1:20:44I'm assuming that doesn't include like,

1:20:46you know, um, where we are paying for

1:20:51like a transit study or those kind of

1:20:54studies, right? Like you know, so

1:20:56>> no, so those come generally under um

1:20:59department basic function. So you see

1:21:01there's contract and professional

1:21:02services there. There's about $4.1

1:21:04million. Um so the one and again there's

1:21:08also over in enhanced service there's

1:21:11contracting professional services and

1:21:13then again the professional development

1:21:15one for Michael's point is specific to

1:21:18we have money in the budget to hire a

1:21:20consultant or really a moderator of

1:21:23sorts to come into a retreat session or

1:21:27something else. So that's specific to

1:21:28that category.

1:21:29>> When the board professional

1:21:31and professional development at the top.

1:21:33It's kind of

1:21:36like, okay, now I get it.

1:21:38>> I was just trying to clarify when you

1:21:40asked staff to do this work and create

1:21:42it. When are we going to see it again?

1:21:45And I'm thinking probably January as a

1:21:47start.

1:21:48>> I think we would I'm sorry. Um I think

1:21:51we want to share that with you before

1:21:53January because we don't want to come

1:21:55into January and then having you

1:21:57studying it even a week or two before.

1:21:59we can get this to you certainly sooner

1:22:01than that and you know you may want to

1:22:03bring this back in a work session

1:22:05depending on what we want to accomplish

1:22:07in January. I realize we don't know what

1:22:08that is yet. Um, but I think this is

1:22:11again this is more the core

1:22:13understanding of what is in the 27

1:22:16budget and I think that's important as

1:22:18much of that as we can get done in

1:22:19advance of the retreat has value to it

1:22:22and then that gives us the retreat to

1:22:24really start more serious conversations

1:22:26about what is 28 going to look like at

1:22:29the retreat we have rebal numbers we

1:22:31have hopefully some final answers on

1:22:34appeals from the last evaluation

1:22:37so I think we'll have Of course, the

1:22:39longer we go, the better numbers we have

1:22:41in terms of revenue estimates and other

1:22:43things. You know, in January, we should

1:22:45also have at least a first meaningful

1:22:47sales tax report back. So, that's going

1:22:49to give us an idea of how things are

1:22:51going this year. And then also in

1:22:53January, I think the other thing we're

1:22:55going to ask you to, you know, discuss

1:22:57with us is, you know, we had $500,000

1:23:00that was a reduction in our our

1:23:03anticipated insurance cost. And so, I've

1:23:05given you some information about how and

1:23:07why that occurred. But, $500,000 that as

1:23:10we see where we are in terms of revenues

1:23:11for FY27

1:23:13there may be a discussion about do you

1:23:15want to invest some or all of that now

1:23:18or do you want to sit on that and save

1:23:19that and what would you like to do with

1:23:21that I think there's certainly an

1:23:23argument to be made depending on the

1:23:25totality of the circumstances you know

1:23:27fleet is one example then we're going to

1:23:29talk more about that but you know we

1:23:30wanted $180,000 out of $500,000 that

1:23:34really needed to be there so that's a

1:23:36possibility of Can we invest some of

1:23:38that money for an example in fleet?

1:23:40Because the challenge with fleet um is

1:23:43that you know in the past we've not

1:23:46included that base budget and we've left

1:23:48it as this flexible we'll fund as much

1:23:50as we can and I'm really rethinking that

1:23:53you know after talking more with Matt

1:23:55and certainly with others that have veh

1:24:00that really sets us back because the

1:24:02other challenge is is highly highly

1:24:04unlikely that we're going to find an

1:24:06extra in FY28 to fund 800 to catch up.

1:24:11And of course, it also impacts, you

1:24:13know, how long vehicles are being used

1:24:15and things like that. And again, Matt's

1:24:17got some information to share that he's

1:24:19working on reevaluating how do we look

1:24:21at the lifespan of vehicles and some of

1:24:23that, but all that I think would be

1:24:26January, but we'll give you this earlier

1:24:28than that. So, you can look at that,

1:24:30have time to absorb it, and I think we

1:24:32would do a work session

1:24:35this fall. So that going into January,

1:24:38again, my my goal, I think I hope you

1:24:40would support is that going into

1:24:41January, you have your base

1:24:43understanding of what the budget is. And

1:24:46then we start talking about what might

1:24:48need to be adjusted going into 28 as we

1:24:51also look at, you know, what are our

1:24:52revenues, what are we interested in

1:24:54perhaps.

1:24:57>> Sounds like really solid foundational

1:24:59work.

1:25:12Somebody [clears throat] asked me, "What

1:25:14is this? Why do we have

1:25:18a

1:25:20>> or at least to pull up the document that

1:25:21explains it,

1:25:22>> right? So that's the reason.

1:25:33>> Yeah, we all should have a basic

1:25:34understanding of these numbers.

1:25:39>> Yeah, we'll post this and we'll share,

1:25:41you know, there's additional

1:25:42clarification coming. Again, that was

1:25:44part of the purpose of what this is,

1:25:45right?

1:25:46Tell us what else you need to make sure

1:25:48that you understand what you're

1:25:50approving and what you already have

1:25:51approved and where is there some

1:25:53flexibility should you choose to want to

1:25:55pursue that flexibility

1:26:03>> I'm sorry

1:26:04>> this

1:26:06kind of test here today does it work for

1:26:09you this mix does that spectrum help you

1:26:11understand you know nondiscretionary

1:26:14discretionary

1:26:16across that spectrum to help you make

1:26:18decisions.

1:26:21>> I think I would just add um and I'm

1:26:24going to talk for me. Don't assume that

1:26:26I remember all this. You live with it

1:26:30>> day in and day out. So don't assume that

1:26:32I remember what every category means. I

1:26:35think every time you present something

1:26:37like this, make sure you have more

1:26:38detail so that I can be sure that I

1:26:42remember what every category really

1:26:45and and that I would also say and I

1:26:47appreciate this this is really important

1:26:49that we need to have the revenue side

1:26:52too. I think that is critical to

1:26:54understand.

1:26:56>> Yeah, I know not not everything on here

1:26:59is well to to Satisha's point somebody

1:27:02if the taxpayers it's taxpayers money

1:27:05wherever it's coming from but it's not

1:27:07all coming from the town of Morrisville

1:27:10alone. It's we have a lot of revenue

1:27:12sources that are funding what we're

1:27:15looking at in front of us on this

1:27:16document. So

1:27:18from from the public's perspective too,

1:27:21it's really important um that that piece

1:27:25is a part of this every time we have

1:27:27this discussion about expenses

1:27:30um because that matters um and where

1:27:33that money is coming from. So, I would I

1:27:35would just ask that we maybe moving

1:27:38forward, we always have that the two

1:27:40pieces together because for me that

1:27:42would be helpful when we're talking to

1:27:45the public and explaining why we're

1:27:47spending 1.4 million on transit. Well,

1:27:51it's not all coming from your town of

1:27:53Morrisville tax money. A huge majority

1:27:57of that is funded. So,

1:28:00I think that's helpful.

1:28:02>> Yeah. Incorporating the

1:28:04helps understanding.

1:28:13>> Sure. [snorts] I mean there there are

1:28:14there are several things. So you know

1:28:17for example the fire department gets 16%

1:28:23>> 13.5% of the fire department is cost

1:28:26shared with county service in the

1:28:29unincorporated

1:28:31>> it's 800 880,000 or did they increase?

1:28:34>> We're at somewhere around 1.4 million.

1:28:36>> Okay because when I during my time it

1:28:39was reimbursement back's

1:28:43three different

1:28:45They would have funed a small portion of

1:28:47the two engines we just arrived. Um, you

1:28:50know, they also funded air pack

1:28:52replacement. You know, there was a small

1:28:54portion of that that came from the

1:28:56county. So, those sort of things occur.

1:28:58We certainly get transit money. You

1:29:00know, we get power bill funding that

1:29:02goes to street repairs and street

1:29:04maintenance. Those are some of the

1:29:06larger examples. You know, there is uh

1:29:08the PD's got one or two active grants

1:29:10right now. One is GHSP, the sports

1:29:13traffic safety over time. There's I

1:29:15think one other chief

1:29:17>> the uh detective one of the detective

1:29:21positions that looks into domestic

1:29:22violence and mental health evaluations

1:29:25that's still on a grant. And um we also

1:29:29have quite a few things we've paid for

1:29:31in the police department that are

1:29:32continuous grants, but they have helped

1:29:34us fund several initiatives as well

1:29:36throughout the last couple years.

1:29:39So which which ones are um recurring? I

1:29:43know the fire department is the police

1:29:45department is the police department is

1:29:47the police department is the one.

1:29:50>> So it's a mix. Um so the fire department

1:29:52is generally recurring monies. Um the

1:29:55the grants that the PD gets they may

1:29:57last three years generally no maybe

1:30:00occasionally five years but they're a

1:30:02limited span. Um so there's there's both

1:30:05sides of that coin.

1:30:08So, I think that's really important

1:30:10because we're really good um well, staff

1:30:13is really good at maximizing our tax

1:30:16money. Um and so I think that that's why

1:30:19the revenue portion is so important. Um

1:30:22you know, because we're maximizing these

1:30:25grants sometimes that are matching,

1:30:27we're taking our tax money and making it

1:30:29go further because of all these

1:30:31opportunities. And that is really

1:30:33important to this picture.

1:30:36>> Another good example is storm water. Um

1:30:39you know Ben and Mark and the team have

1:30:40gotten two [snorts] significant grants

1:30:43to support the development of the

1:30:44greenway parallel church. So again,

1:30:48there's just there's lots of those

1:30:50examples out there that we can certainly

1:30:52identify.

1:31:01>> I should

1:31:03be

1:31:09>> Yeah, I think that's what we're talking

1:31:10about is on the side. Where does that

1:31:12funding necessarily come from?

1:31:15>> Correct. In

1:31:17is is specific to that, you know. So, I

1:31:20think one of the questions that Harrison

1:31:21had asked this week was about, you know,

1:31:23how much of a contributes to X Y or Z.

1:31:26We don't necessarily specifically track

1:31:29that outside of, you know, this is

1:31:31funded by Paulo, for example, or this is

1:31:33funded by county monies. Beyond that, we

1:31:36typically have it said, you know, this

1:31:38is specifically funded by ADA, this is

1:31:40funded by, you know, another fee or

1:31:42another tax or or those sorts of things.

1:31:45But we can certainly generally I think

1:31:48specifically specific we can add

1:31:51specific examples of where we receive

1:31:53funding for a program

1:31:56in this as well

1:31:57>> versus

1:32:10there's term limits so we're

1:32:12establishing service based on the rece

1:32:15for a time period just understand that

1:32:19in someone else's level of authority to

1:32:22decide wheretionary

1:32:42service we're a decision on something

1:32:46that is granted that has a lifem

1:32:50and we have to just recognize at some

1:32:52point beyond that term with the governor

1:32:54safety or position we assume some

1:32:58responsibility later or

1:33:03something has to happen to that position

1:33:06you want to add to that

1:33:06>> I think it's important to to clarify

1:33:09because the JHSP grant we currently have

1:33:12is not for a position it's for overtime

1:33:14funding to where I can pay officers to

1:33:16go out and work traffic safety and GHSP

1:33:20refunds us for that. I think what you're

1:33:21referring to is the one that we just put

1:33:22in for which unfortunately we didn't get

1:33:24but you're correct that funds usually a

1:33:27vehicle which we get to keep, right? We

1:33:29benefit from that. So there are parts of

1:33:31that grant that you are right does need

1:33:34to continue on from the town but there

1:33:36are things we get from that that are a

1:33:38benefit to us because we're not funding

1:33:40that out of tax dollars. Right. Well,

1:33:42it's being funded out of tax dollars,

1:33:44not more so tax dollars, right? So, um

1:33:46it just helps us further programs to

1:33:50provide a higher level of service

1:33:51without really necessarily costing

1:33:53additional money. But I want to make

1:33:54sure we because the the GHSP grant we're

1:33:57currently under we've had for the last I

1:33:58think three years. I know at least the

1:34:00last two [clears throat] where we

1:34:01receive additional funding from GHSP to

1:34:03give us the ability to allow officers to

1:34:05go out and work overtime and things like

1:34:07that. But that doesn't,

1:34:09you know, if it ended next year, we just

1:34:11wouldn't those officers out under

1:34:13>> the detective position is one of those

1:34:15magic

1:34:16>> that that is one

1:34:18>> right yes that is

1:34:20>> yeah yeah yeah so that is one that that

1:34:23will end um and so

1:34:28>> I also think that being the case when

1:34:30there is something that's being funded

1:34:31for three years I think we need to

1:34:34present that to both to the public and

1:34:36always to council as a trial period you

1:34:40know and So that if at the end of the

1:34:42trial period the service hasn't worked

1:34:45out, we don't see the ROI, whatever the

1:34:47situation is, it's going to cost too

1:34:49much to continue, then no harm, no foul,

1:34:52we discontinue, you know, and rather

1:34:54than I think like we because once the

1:34:58grant or whatever it is ends, that goes

1:35:01from

1:35:03no funding to

1:35:05discretionary. And I think we don't

1:35:07always make that transition as clear as

1:35:10it could be. You know, that we're we're

1:35:13making the decision to pick up the

1:35:15funding of this service because the

1:35:17grant has expired and this service is so

1:35:19valuable and providing so much to the

1:35:22community that we want to continue. Like

1:35:25I just

1:35:26>> I kind of lose track of like what's

1:35:28Yeah.

1:35:28>> Right. The default is option

1:35:35to

1:35:36versus the default is because we're

1:35:40automatically

1:35:42adding it to our base budget without

1:35:44really having the discussion

1:35:46>> and and um I think I 100% agree what Ann

1:35:50is saying and we got to be cognizant

1:35:52just because we're getting funding you

1:35:54know we should not take it because

1:35:57example

1:35:59like I get free cup of coffee for three

1:36:02years okay and then the fourth year I'm

1:36:04not getting so you're created that habit

1:36:07and now it's a service you're giving now

1:36:10the expense is on us. So that also we

1:36:14got to look into it because um

1:36:18these are supplementary what the chief

1:36:20is saying these are ads and hands but

1:36:23it's part of the whole thing given or

1:36:26not I'm assuming the domestic violence

1:36:28thing we will continue to do that no

1:36:30matter what like you know or or I'm

1:36:33assuming

1:36:34>> I mean if you if you don't continue the

1:36:38position then while we will still do it

1:36:40the level at which we do it would be

1:36:42less, right? I mean, that's just

1:36:45>> the way to look at. I mean, there

1:36:46there's certain things that we can

1:36:47definitely talk about at at another time

1:36:50or we want to address them now, but just

1:36:52goes in level of service for at least

1:36:53public safety. I don't want to speak to

1:36:55Chief Duly, but for me, the positions we

1:36:57get just determines the level of service

1:36:59we're able to provide to the public.

1:37:02So, so are you saying that when you get

1:37:05the grant you get more you have the

1:37:07ability to give more service and once

1:37:10the grant is done less service but

1:37:14how do we how do we as a council now

1:37:16other people know that hey the grant is

1:37:18over now it's less service you know

1:37:21>> that's why I'm saying we have to be

1:37:22messaging it that way to the public all

1:37:24the like every time somebody says

1:37:25something nice to us about the smart

1:37:27shovel if that grant was expiring next

1:37:30It has to be habitual for us to say,

1:37:33"Oh, you definitely want to that that

1:37:35grant is ended next year." So, if you're

1:37:37enjoying that service, hit that survey,

1:37:40you know, because that's how we build a

1:37:42habit in the community of if you like

1:37:45something and you want to see it

1:37:47continue, you know, let us know that you

1:37:50like it. Even if the grant isn't ending

1:37:52for that matter, you know, hey, it's

1:37:54always a this this service is always a

1:37:56budget discussion. If you want it, hit

1:37:58that sur Tell your friends.

1:38:00>> I mean the opportunity to say hey it's

1:38:02just not going to work

1:38:04>> is a decision as well

1:38:09just because we got free

1:38:14opportunity.

1:38:15>> See I tend to disagree there. I think

1:38:18it's always worth trying something

1:38:20that's free like

1:38:21>> No, I didn't say turn it like

1:38:25I'm saying

1:38:28we We have to continue.

1:38:29>> Yeah, exactly. You know,

1:38:35>> but you know,

1:38:38but we also need to critically look at

1:38:41it. Is it still working? No. Yes. Kind

1:38:44of like our

1:38:47example of

1:38:53looking at things, you know, not just

1:38:56them actually. challenging them is a

1:38:59health.

1:39:02>> So I was going to challenge this

1:39:03philosophy until you brought up the

1:39:06transit. Um so I think there's for me I

1:39:09think there's there's a difference

1:39:11between when we're talking about

1:39:13personnel and when we're talking about

1:39:16an amenity like transit. I think when we

1:39:20and we have applied for grants in the

1:39:22past where we've received um partial

1:39:25payment what it starts out at 100% and

1:39:29then it over

1:39:31100 to 80 to 70 and things like that.

1:39:34>> But but when when it comes to personnel

1:39:38for me um when we apply for that grant

1:39:41that means again for me that means that

1:39:45position is important. I understand that

1:39:48over time um the reimbursement is going

1:39:51to slowly decline and then it's 100% on

1:39:54us. I agree with that

1:39:55>> and I'm all in otherwise I would not

1:39:57have agreed to apply for the grant to

1:40:00begin with.

1:40:01>> So I think there's a

1:40:03>> there's a difference here between

1:40:06>> grant money for personnel and then for

1:40:09other um amenities we might offer in the

1:40:13community like transit. I do not

1:40:14disagree. At some point this transit may

1:40:17be 100% on the town of Morrisville and

1:40:20we have to be thoughtful about whether

1:40:22we're willing to pick that all up or

1:40:24not. And to your point is the p it's the

1:40:27public are they willing um because then

1:40:30it's a whole different ball game. So

1:40:32there's kind of a a nuance there that's

1:40:35really important.

1:40:37>> So that's the reason they have this pro

1:40:38penny wise pound foolish. So that's

1:40:41pretty much

1:40:47always

1:40:54>> yes

1:40:55>> particularly in the case of a position

1:40:57you certainly we discussed that ahead of

1:40:59time and share that you know hey this is

1:41:02going to be funded at this much for

1:41:04these three years and then year four

1:41:05it's on us and so the positions we

1:41:07pursue typically are positions that we

1:41:10believe and can discuss with you that

1:41:12this is this is an identified need.

1:41:15Here's a way to get some of it funded

1:41:17until we actually have to take it on all

1:41:19ourselves. You know, there's also the

1:41:20challenge I think loosely affiliated

1:41:23with this is that there's a lot of

1:41:24grants that, you know, we just don't get

1:41:27because we we have a lot of resources.

1:41:30You know, I'm sure um you know, the

1:41:32chief mentioned in this traffic safety

1:41:34position for um that, you know, would

1:41:36only be accepted if we got the grant

1:41:38funding. So, it's not like we didn't get

1:41:40it. we won't, you know, we won't add a

1:41:41traffic safety officer. But, you know,

1:41:44part of that is I'm sure that there was

1:41:46a lot of interest in that grant and we

1:41:48[clears throat] just don't qualify as

1:41:50well as others because of the resources

1:41:52we already have. Um, you know, same

1:41:54thing I think we sally

1:42:02other

1:42:03>> So, Brandon, do we have like a full-time

1:42:06person who is specialized in grant

1:42:08writing? So

1:42:12there is a position asked out of

1:42:14financial services that the one position

1:42:16they would still like to add is grant

1:42:18specialist. So right now that is done

1:42:20primarily by Dawn. Um so Dawn you know

1:42:24focuses on that part of you may not know

1:42:27her but she would have been here today

1:42:29but she had personal obligation. So she

1:42:32works on that. Again we also work

1:42:34closely with Central Pines. They have a

1:42:36grants team that we're able to take

1:42:37advantage of. We pay them

1:42:39>> 16 grand

1:42:40>> 16 grand a year to help us facilitate

1:42:43grant application. Sometimes that

1:42:44becomes a shared grant application or

1:42:47they just help us do a lot of the

1:42:48research behind doing the application.

1:42:51Um because some grants are pretty

1:42:52straightforward and some grants like

1:42:54require the amount of information you

1:42:56would not believe. And so we weigh those

1:42:58as well. I mean, if it's going to take

1:43:00us, you know, 40 hours of work to apply

1:43:02for a $5,000 grant, we're probably not

1:43:05applying for that $5,000 grant. There's

1:43:08no ROI on that one, right? But some of

1:43:10the larger ones we certainly pursue and

1:43:12they provide us a lot of great support.

1:43:15Again, that is a position request in the

1:43:17future from financial service. I mean,

1:43:18it's been asked for before. It just

1:43:20hasn't made it to you. Um, but that's

1:43:22one that's their one identified

1:43:24expansion in the next four years. And

1:43:26and also keep in mind that that grant

1:43:28process that's a collaborative effort.

1:43:30So Don's not doing that on her. She's

1:43:32working with the other department.

1:43:34>> It's always I mean say it's good that

1:43:37Don is doing but it's an art by itself.

1:43:39>> Uh it's not uh I I read a lot of uh

1:43:43grants from workforce education like 40

1:43:4750 of them. But the key is central

1:43:50finance is good. If we are looking for a

1:43:53position then what's the ROI because

1:43:56that's like goes back to what Liz said

1:43:58it's a personal that's lifelong you know

1:44:01so

1:44:02[clears throat] how do we look into

1:44:04those kind of things are are important

1:44:06yes the the functionality of a

1:44:08professional grant writing is important

1:44:11like I have been a big advocate for the

1:44:13economic development person you know

1:44:15like I said bring that person we will

1:44:17get more finances and that's exactly

1:44:19what is happening so we have to see if

1:44:22that's happening or we are not

1:44:26savvy like because grant is like have in

1:44:30the university departments you know it's

1:44:31a completely different auto right

1:44:35>> I think that speaks to the value of

1:44:37certain positions we talked about that

1:44:38before we could add every position with

1:44:42that ROI we'd be in business right

1:44:44because I mean we don't get without

1:44:47Tiffany and Michelle and the team

1:44:50working

1:44:52it doesn't happen. So there's just

1:44:54tremendous ROI there. I mean can I tell

1:44:56you it's exactly the total sum of our

1:44:58maybe um you know we had other positions

1:45:01I mean if you look at you know we added

1:45:03an assistant fire marshal in the fire

1:45:05department and so you know part of that

1:45:07ROI is pretty straightforward because

1:45:09it's helping us maintain all the

1:45:11inspections being completed on time

1:45:13which does generate some additional

1:45:14revenue for us. The other part of that

1:45:16is the ROI is really hard to document in

1:45:19terms of what is being done with

1:45:22community outreach and engagement. And

1:45:24again, it's important to the fire

1:45:26department because it addresses

1:45:27community risk reduction, but it's

1:45:29important to the community. It's

1:45:30important to you because we're engaging

1:45:32more directly. You know, we're doing um

1:45:34things like the campign Ignite where I'm

1:45:36I'm excited. I think the chief is

1:45:38excited to see the first camp graduate

1:45:41become a firefighter. Like that would be

1:45:43amazing. You know, that's the It's a

1:45:45little more challenging to measure, but

1:45:48it's there. You know, we're getting that

1:45:50that ROI back. You know, the same thing

1:45:52in the police department. You know, we

1:45:53added an impact team. That's really hard

1:45:56to measure sometimes because, you know,

1:45:57first your crime rates are going to go

1:45:59up, but you want your crime rates to go

1:46:01down. But if you put four people out

1:46:02there saying go deal with this, your

1:46:04crime rates are going to go up. And

1:46:05that's success. It sounds crazy, but

1:46:07it's success because they're addressing

1:46:09the crime. But, you know, and

1:46:11ultimately, of course, over time, we

1:46:13want that That's a hard ROI to measure

1:46:16in some cases.

1:46:18>> You're you're forgetting the main

1:46:19person, Shandandy, where the ROI is

1:46:22right there in inspections.

1:46:25[clears throat]

1:46:25>> How are we doing on time?

1:46:27>> So, we are coming up.

1:46:29>> Oh, okay.

1:46:31[laughter]

1:46:35>> I wanted to add something real quick.

1:46:38[clears throat]

1:46:39>> Yeah. So uh going back to the financial

1:46:42um decoder thing, this uh particular

1:46:44chart is uh it's called a vulnerability

1:46:46indicator. Um the title of the chart is

1:46:49government transfers to total revenue.

1:46:51Um what it is is the share of a city's

1:46:53income that comes from state or federal

1:46:54aid. What it tells you high dependency

1:46:56on outside funding makes the city

1:46:58vulnerable to political or economic

1:46:59shifts beyond its control. What the

1:47:01trend shows is if the trend is rising,

1:47:03the city is becoming more dependent on

1:47:04outside help. If it's falling, the city

1:47:06is strengthening its local revenue base.

1:47:08Um, you know, that's a it's a very the

1:47:11main thing is validating and discussing

1:47:13the data on this to see if it would be

1:47:15worth um, you know, having this. And I

1:47:17guess a question for my colleagues is

1:47:19would it be worth having uh, this data

1:47:22ahead of our next budget discussion to

1:47:25um, inform our decisions or form our

1:47:27discussions?

1:47:28>> I think at the very least it's worth

1:47:30keeping in mind the questions that that

1:47:33data is answering. Like I actually had

1:47:35never thought about

1:47:37outside as putting us in a position of

1:47:40vulnerability. But

1:47:41>> and I will say that you know there

1:47:43there's a particular um

1:47:47maybe values and uh not to say bias

1:47:51necessarily but there's a particular

1:47:52framework that this is uh coming out of

1:47:56and I guess it's it's

1:47:59it's niche but it applies to municipal

1:48:01um municipal spending and uh certainly

1:48:04if we looked into the data and we found

1:48:06that it's like oh you know this doesn't

1:48:08inform our reality or things like I

1:48:10think those are those are useful

1:48:12conversations to have um on this because

1:48:16it's it's just a different way to think

1:48:17about some of these things.

1:48:19>> I think it's an excellent

1:48:21input to give us another angle because

1:48:26you know we do things on a basis

1:48:34community

1:48:36etc to have another tool that's external

1:48:42And I think about contracting

1:48:44professional services

1:48:48that really is a vulnerability versus we

1:48:51just don't have the the need to have an

1:48:55expert.

1:49:00>> Yeah, I think it's important for us to

1:49:02that's another data point really

1:49:04important for us to understand and the

1:49:06trend.

1:49:07>> But don't we get that already? Like I

1:49:09mean it's not on the grand side like you

1:49:11know but most of them the federal and

1:49:13like because

1:49:16>> and all those things those are kind of

1:49:18defined but more granular like you know

1:49:21the vulnerability this is dying after

1:49:24three years so those kind of things are

1:49:27kind of good to know because that's only

1:49:29after three years you know if the

1:49:31service is having impact on the people

1:49:34or

1:49:34>> yeah I want to evaluate the delta

1:49:36against the cost like what What would we

1:49:39be getting that we don't already have

1:49:41versus how much it's going to cost?

1:49:43>> Yeah. Yeah. This is just data.

1:49:44>> Is it free?

1:49:45>> It's not the discussion. Yeah. This is

1:49:47this this framework, this tool is free.

1:49:51>> I like

1:49:54free.

1:49:55>> It would just require

1:49:57>> How many hours will it take staff to get

1:49:59>> right? So I mean it took me an afternoon

1:50:03>> and you're charging.

1:50:06>> I mean let's not

1:50:10smart city and that we have a lot of

1:50:13data that is readily accessible to the

1:50:15public. [clears throat] So this is a

1:50:17free tool

1:50:20you provide externally.

1:50:25>> What does the licensing look like? Can

1:50:27we take data from that model and share

1:50:30it externally?

1:50:32>> Yeah, it's already shared externally.

1:50:34>> I mean the the insights and the charts

1:50:36and everything we can share it.

1:50:40take a look at it and see what

1:50:42>> right upper level staff thinks about it.

1:50:46>> There's lots of it's a perfectly fine

1:50:48tool. You know, every tool I think comes

1:50:50from a mindset of sorts. So, I think we

1:50:53need the opportunity to dig into a

1:50:55little bit if that's the direction you

1:50:56give to that and again measure the value

1:51:00against what and I'm not suggesting

1:51:08feel like we're at a decent time for a

1:51:10break. So, we will come back from the

1:51:12break and perhaps think about if there's

1:51:14any lingering questions around

1:51:16particularly the the breakdown. Um, and

1:51:19if not, we will move into a fleet

1:51:22discussion and then we'll move from that

1:51:24into staffing.

1:51:28>> Okay. 15 minutes, please.

1:51:31>> I mean, no, take

1:51:33back

1:51:35what he said.

1:51:52>> My way. I can't see the slide.

1:51:56>> Okay, we are back to the session. I'll

1:51:58pass

1:52:00to take us into the next section.

1:52:02>> So,

1:52:04Welcome back.

1:52:07There were several of you that had

1:52:08questions about so what we want to do is

1:52:12give you an update on what the police

1:52:14looks like, how that's being handled

1:52:16right now. And then Matt is also doing

1:52:18some work on reevaluating some of that

1:52:21criteria

1:52:22and looking at length of vehicles and

1:52:24things

1:52:26are newer, they should last longer, that

1:52:28sort of thing. So I'll turn it over to

1:52:30Matt. Um, just before we do that,

1:52:32Brandon, I just want to take a minute to

1:52:34recognize the fact that Micah did an

1:52:35amazing job on the presentation this

1:52:37morning and that was really well thought

1:52:39out and really to me very helpful.

1:52:41>> Thank you.

1:52:48>> Next outing.

1:52:49>> No pressure.

1:52:50>> Yeah, we got a lot to live up to now.

1:52:53Um, yeah. So, good morning. Um want to

1:52:55talk a little bit about some of the

1:52:56fleet and focusing specifically on the

1:52:59replacement cycles. Right now I'm happy

1:53:00to go in any direction you guys want to

1:53:03talk about. Um in the FAQ provided our

1:53:06our current criteria for evaluating our

1:53:09our replacement vehicles.

1:53:11Um and uh so right now we we are looking

1:53:15at

1:53:17uh well sorry back our fleet uh we

1:53:20manage right now 121 vehicles. Um that

1:53:24number goes up to 157 when you start

1:53:26looking into the piece of equipment that

1:53:27fleet is maintaining right now. Uh so

1:53:30right now the way we've been responding

1:53:32in our fleet replacement has been

1:53:35looking at the money that council has

1:53:36been giving us and based off our

1:53:38replacement criteria identifying our top

1:53:41candidates and maximizing what's been

1:53:43replaced.

1:53:44So we are looking at pivoting a little

1:53:47bit and how that's done going forward of

1:53:50presenting what we have uh for vehicles

1:53:53that are eligible for replacement to

1:53:55give you guys senior leadership and

1:53:58council a better idea of where we are to

1:54:00think a little bit more holistically on

1:54:02what kind of funding goes through this

1:54:03and risks

1:54:05associated with replacement. And then

1:54:07just real quick for clarification, the

1:54:09121 and 157 does not reflect fire

1:54:12apparatus. So the fire apparatus is

1:54:15managed through the fire department.

1:54:17SUVs, pickups are handled by fleet, but

1:54:20the actual apparatus is handled outside.

1:54:28>> Question

1:54:31what the apparatus included. So that

1:54:32included any ladders or rescue. So

1:54:37utility vehicles, SUVs, things like that

1:54:39are managed.

1:54:45>> So our uh current policy right now that

1:54:48we start evaluating vehicles for

1:54:51replacement is either the 60% of the

1:54:53NADA book value. Uh a need no longer

1:54:57exists within the department. Um the

1:55:00overall condition of a vehicle has just

1:55:01gotten to a point that is just not

1:55:03operationally safe. Um and then going

1:55:05beyond that we look at uh mileage and

1:55:08age and it varies depend on the use. So

1:55:10PD we're looking at currently looking at

1:55:12six years or 85,000 miles is when we

1:55:15start looking at it. Uh for fire

1:55:18nonapparatus vehicles uh same as as PD

1:55:21that's six year 85,000. Um, our heavy

1:55:25duty trucks, mainly the ones that you're

1:55:27seeing in public works, um, those are 15

1:55:29years or 125,000. And then all of our

1:55:32other fleet vehicles, we're on a 12 year

1:55:35or 100,000 mi or excuse 100,000 mile

1:55:38review period.

1:55:40Um, and so that set us up right now when

1:55:43I'm looking at that and our our 121

1:55:45vehicles that we have right now. Um, 41

1:55:48of those vehicles meet at least one of

1:55:50those pieces of criteria right now. And

1:55:53if we were just to give you guys an idea

1:55:55of what that looks like from a cost

1:55:56replacement threshold for those 41

1:55:58vehicles, that's about $2.8 million. And

1:56:01that 2.8 includes the purchase plus all

1:56:05the up that goes into different

1:56:07vehicles. Um so you safety equipment,

1:56:10lights, and then even more for PD when

1:56:12it comes to emergency response radios

1:56:15and all the things.

1:56:18Um, Matt, when to what extent do we do

1:56:22um I understand we can't do upfits in

1:56:24house, but to what extent do we do like

1:56:26preventive maintenance or or I guess any

1:56:28kind of maintenance. Do we do that in

1:56:30house or do we do we outsource that?

1:56:33>> We certainly try to do as much as we can

1:56:34in house. So, a lot of the simple

1:56:36preventative maintenance things, oil

1:56:38checks, uh all the kind of kind of

1:56:41simple things that we are responsible

1:56:43for as like normal people when we go to

1:56:45like oil we handle all those things. We

1:56:48can also go up to bigger um really we

1:56:51can handle almost anything. Uh it's just

1:56:53more of a time consideration at that

1:56:55point is where we look at does it make

1:56:57sense for us to outsource it from the

1:56:59time you get back out? Is it still

1:57:01covered under warranty? Um so those are

1:57:03the kind of decisions. But right now for

1:57:05the for most of our vehicles we can

1:57:07handle most things. It's more of just

1:57:09the time and cost is the bigger decision

1:57:12for us outsourcing at this point.

1:57:16So

1:57:17thank you so much for giving those

1:57:20breakdowns because that's really helpful

1:57:21for me. uh not talking about public

1:57:25works uh but the vehicles where you know

1:57:30either the PD or the fire take home and

1:57:32as a stuff like you're putting a

1:57:36criteria of 85,000 miles and out of

1:57:39which

1:57:41say

1:57:4350% is back and forth to the residents

1:57:48and back you know so technically it's

1:57:52only 45

1:57:54and then we are adding all the burden

1:57:57because you can't transfer the equipment

1:58:00from one vehicle to other vehicle pretty

1:58:01much completely brand new which has to

1:58:03come on the other side assuming all the

1:58:06bells and whistles that all the speedies

1:58:08and everyone think

1:58:10is it more cost effective to give them

1:58:14like regular vehicles so that they can

1:58:16go back and forth I understand it is an

1:58:18incentive for them to go because they're

1:58:21off duty they don't need to take this

1:58:24one but especially you're putting credit

1:58:26of 85,000

1:58:29>> and if y'all don't mind I'll stand up so

1:58:30I talk about so I think it's important

1:58:33to talk about why our take on fleet is

1:58:36so important real quick right so

1:58:39>> as a profession we went to this model I

1:58:42don't know probably at least 10 years

1:58:43ago I would say

1:58:45>> and the reason why is it's you're right

1:58:48it is an incentive it's a recruitment

1:58:50piece but the biggest readiness, right?

1:58:53So,

1:58:54take for example, if I keep my whole

1:58:57fleet here in town, okay, nine square

1:59:00miles, anywhere in town, there's a

1:59:02railroad track running right through the

1:59:04middle of town. Train the rails, similar

1:59:07to what happened with EQ in Apex, right?

1:59:10Not far away.

1:59:12We have an emergency. My entire fleet is

1:59:15contained in this town to wherever now I

1:59:18need to deploy officers to go block

1:59:19streets, whatever. and they can't get to

1:59:21the vehicles. The other thing is I have

1:59:23people assigned to SWAT teams,

1:59:25negotiators, things of that nature where

1:59:27we partner with other agencies where

1:59:29they be here. By them having that take

1:59:32on vehicle, their equipment with them,

1:59:34it decreases our response time so we can

1:59:36get help to people quicker, especially

1:59:38when we're talking about people coming

1:59:39in. So the operational readiness piece

1:59:42is the biggest thing for me, right?

1:59:44Because that's a safety measure for the

1:59:45town. So to your point, it's not just

1:59:48the going back and forth. It's the They

1:59:50have their equipment with them. They

1:59:51have their police cars. They have

1:59:53license sir that by by statute I can

1:59:56allow them if it's a big enough

1:59:57emergency to run emergency traffic all

1:59:59the way to Morsville. Right. So they're

2:00:02getting here quicker to provide our

2:00:04residents with the assistance that they

2:00:06need at that time. So I think that's the

2:00:09biggest point to kind of kind of hit

2:00:11here is that that's the biggest thing

2:00:13behind our take on fleet. Now to your

2:00:15point recruitment while we're on it that

2:00:18is a big

2:00:19Like I said, pretty much every police

2:00:21department in the nation kind of went to

2:00:22this model. So all our jurisdictions

2:00:25here in Wake County do it. Surrounding

2:00:27counties, the majority of them I can

2:00:29find are doing take home vehicles. So

2:00:31there's a recruitment piece, but I think

2:00:32the all of us went to that model because

2:00:35it provides us with that operational

2:00:37readiness.

2:00:38>> I appreciate you telling me about the

2:00:40operation. I was looking more from a

2:00:42business, you know, like stand point of

2:00:45view. Um then is 85,000

2:00:49like too less because it's or we have we

2:00:53can increase it to more mileage.

2:00:56>> I'm going to turn that one back over

2:00:57Matt, but I just want to say, you know,

2:00:58Matt's new to his position. I'm still

2:01:00just a year into mine. He and I have

2:01:02worked together before. I manage 121

2:01:05vehicle fleet in Apex before I came

2:01:07here. So, we have experiences that he

2:01:10and I are working together to try to

2:01:11adjust some of these things to to help

2:01:13make this a better process, maybe make

2:01:16vehicles last longer, be a cost savings.

2:01:18I will

2:01:20Well, I do want to say that this is

2:01:22honestly the first time that I can

2:01:24recall that I've heard this put in the

2:01:26context of operational readiness rather

2:01:28than a recruiting tool. And I have to

2:01:30say that that removes a lot of my

2:01:32objection to the take-home fleet. Um,

2:01:36how often would you say that becomes a

2:01:39factor, the the officers having their

2:01:42own like in other words, how often is an

2:01:44would you say officers are dispatched to

2:01:48an emergency where they're where the the

2:01:52readiness time.

2:01:54>> So, I highlighted the big ones. I think

2:01:56it happens on a daily basis here because

2:01:58of the fact that if I keep a fleet at

2:02:00the police department, right, officers

2:02:02have to come in to drop those off and

2:02:05now I have to have officers come to the

2:02:07police department to get their cars. But

2:02:09what happens now is they're coming into

2:02:11town and as they are, they're monitoring

2:02:12their radios. So as soon as they get to

2:02:14the city limits, it may be that a call

2:02:16goes out on one side of town. They're

2:02:18like, "Oh, I'm right here at it." That

2:02:20just reduced my response time. It could

2:02:22be a domestic or something where I get

2:02:24an officer on scene much quicker than I

2:02:26would if I had to go to the police

2:02:27department, grab my car, and go back

2:02:28out. So the examples I gave are kind of

2:02:30the the bigger ones, but I would say if

2:02:33not daily, at least weekly, we're seeing

2:02:35that benefit from our ulcers.

2:02:37>> Let me uh I I like that question a lot.

2:02:40So let me ask a different way like

2:02:45like take a hospital like they work 7 to

2:02:487. Okay, the nurses and the CNS,

2:02:51>> they're coming into work, but

2:02:53technically they don't hit their duty

2:02:56till 7:00. So is the police also works

2:03:00like that? Like you know I'm assuming

2:03:01they come on a time and from there they

2:03:05their shift starts right.

2:03:07>> True. It starts once they they get on

2:03:09duty once they get to the the town limit

2:03:12is actually a mile out which we don't

2:03:13have too much just because of the

2:03:16surrounding municipalities but that's

2:03:17where they're able to conduct their

2:03:19duties. But I will say also, I know

2:03:21we're looking at Morrisville, what kind

2:03:22of benefits Morrisville, but one thing

2:03:24that this does too, it benefits our

2:03:26neighboring jurisdictions that they help

2:03:27us out as well in the fact that they

2:03:29could be driving home and going through

2:03:32carry and there's a car that there's an

2:03:33accident that just happened at an

2:03:34intersection. I expect them to stop

2:03:36there and turn their blue lights on so

2:03:38we prevent more people from having

2:03:39access and get hurt. I know that's in

2:03:41Carrie, but carry officers do the same

2:03:43for us. So, I guess to answer your

2:03:47question, like majority when they hit

2:03:49the the town limits, but you know, these

2:03:51are just providing benefits across the

2:03:53board.

2:03:54>> Chief,

2:03:56>> I'm sorry. Would you explain how roll

2:03:58call works and that they, you know, the

2:03:59response people roll call and that's

2:04:01when they get the briefing and then that

2:04:02really starts their response, you know,

2:04:04for call.

2:04:05>> I'm sorry, I didn't hear any of that.

2:04:06>> So, he was referencing roll call. So, we

2:04:09have roll call every day where officers

2:04:11come to police department. Now, the way

2:04:13we do it is a little different than

2:04:14other police departments in the fact we

2:04:16wait a little bit into their shift

2:04:17because typically when shift change

2:04:19happens, it's the busiest time in town.

2:04:21So, I want officers out on the roadway.

2:04:23But what they do is they come together

2:04:25to to share important information like

2:04:27uh the things that happen that day,

2:04:30anything they need to be on lookout for,

2:04:32whatever it is. And and that's

2:04:33technically when their shift kind of

2:04:35starts, but as soon as they get to town

2:04:36limits, they're they're on duty for the

2:04:38purpose of what you were talking about.

2:04:40Does that answer what you were looking

2:04:41for?

2:04:44>> I think that hit most my point is that

2:04:46you got folks that, you know, come in to

2:04:48work early. I mean, if they start at

2:04:496:00, they could be approaching time at

2:04:525:30, 5:15. You we're not paying them

2:04:54necessarily for that, but if something

2:04:56pops, they're there and they're an extra

2:04:58resource. And again, some of that is for

2:05:00emergencies, some of that is for things

2:05:02that people just like a timely response

2:05:05on certain types of activities. So

2:05:07there's, you know, that's a probably

2:05:09tertiary benefit beyond retention and

2:05:13the true operational readiness for

2:05:14emergencies but there's a lot of

2:05:17>> so technically they're not those police

2:05:20officer is not obligated I know they

2:05:24will help out of the way but till they

2:05:26shift you know the same with the nurses

2:05:29you know they one hour they basically

2:05:31shuffle all the information and

2:05:32everything before they carry on through

2:05:34the next person

2:05:36that is not happening until they both

2:05:39talk to each other and then the shift

2:05:40starts. But you're saying it starts even

2:05:42before that.

2:05:43>> They're responsible once they hit the

2:05:44town.

2:05:46>> That's the expectation. That's what they

2:05:47understand. Plus

2:05:49>> the whole reason why we got this

2:05:51profession is to help people. So if I

2:05:52hear a call go out, even as police

2:05:53chief, if I'm driving by, I'm stopping

2:05:56to to help, right? So to your point, but

2:05:58that is the expectation that we we give

2:06:00them is that you go to that call,

2:06:03please, so we can get some help to them.

2:06:04Now, if it's a call that happened where

2:06:07somebody stole some lumber three days

2:06:09ago. Okay, maybe that one should wait

2:06:12just a minute. But these are the active

2:06:14calls that are going on, right,

2:06:15>> Chief? I agree with you 100%.

2:06:18If we have to increase the longevity of

2:06:21this vehicle, you tell me a good way how

2:06:23to do it.

2:06:24>> And I think that's what Matt and I are

2:06:26working on, right?

2:06:27>> Vehicles last longer now than what they

2:06:29did before and things. So that's that's

2:06:31where we're working together. I just

2:06:32wanted to highlight for you guys a as

2:06:34the newer police chief why I see the

2:06:36need for take on fleet. And I think for

2:06:39years, you're right, it's been preached

2:06:40as a recruitment tool, which it is. To

2:06:43be honest, for us to stay in the market

2:06:44to hire police officers, we would need

2:06:46it, but for for me is more the benefit

2:06:50of the operational readiness and the

2:06:52fact that we're adding safety for our

2:06:53residents versus the recruitment piece

2:06:56of it. It's important, but that's not

2:06:57the most important part.

2:06:59>> Thank you.

2:07:02So all the counties that

2:07:06>> every municipality in Wake County either

2:07:08does it or offers a version of it. Now I

2:07:11can't comment Chief Boyce. I would have

2:07:12to ask him, but I'm pretty sure they

2:07:14went to an all take on fleet a few years

2:07:16ago, but they're I mean they have over

2:07:19500 officers, so I'm not sure what that

2:07:21looks like for them, but if you see

2:07:22them, you'll see them out in town. They

2:07:24have take on fleets. So um yeah,

2:07:26everybody everybody that I know the last

2:07:29hold out I knew of was Sanford Police

2:07:31Department. Um but they even went to it

2:07:33now. Um so that's all the surrounding

2:07:36counties and plus also keep in mind

2:07:39[clears throat] what our recruitment

2:07:40looks like right now. I hate to hit on

2:07:41that piece again but it's important to

2:07:44mention that um when we look at mileages

2:07:46and stuff we talked about affordability

2:07:48of living in town especially living in W

2:07:50County. I'm having to recruit further

2:07:53and further out as far as where people

2:07:55live just because of affordability

2:07:57living either this county or even the

2:08:00next county open now.

2:08:02I think that's another major factor.

2:08:09I'm sorry

2:08:12>> right now it's 35 miles which is the is

2:08:14the same for every actually some

2:08:16municipalities around that went out

2:08:18further but that's pretty consistent

2:08:19with with everybody in uh the county and

2:08:23like I said the biggest factor of that

2:08:25is that people living further and

2:08:27further away from Wake County just

2:08:28because of the portability um and what

2:08:30we do is if they don't fit in that

2:08:32mileage uh they can at the closest

2:08:3524-hour facility. So, we have agreements

2:08:38with the police department, fire

2:08:39departments where they can park their

2:08:40cars there and it still decreases that

2:08:42response time. So, because we still want

2:08:44to be fiscally responsible for our

2:08:46residents, right? I don't I don't want

2:08:47like unlimited take on, but that's

2:08:49consistent with what other

2:08:51municipalities are doing. It gives us a

2:08:53good response time for all.

2:08:56>> Speaking of which, I'm prepared to be a

2:08:57nitpicky jerk here. So, this is a

2:09:00take-home vehicle. Is this vehicle going

2:09:03to the grocery store, going on vacation,

2:09:05going it's getting home, parked in the

2:09:07driveway where the officer performs

2:09:09their, you know, their their errands and

2:09:12their their stuff. I mean, I drive to

2:09:13New Jersey six times a year. So, I mean,

2:09:16if I was a Morrisville police officer, I

2:09:18wouldn't be doing that in a Morrisville

2:09:19police car.

2:09:20>> It's it's specifically for use for town

2:09:23function. So, there are things that they

2:09:25do outside the county. Our K9 officers

2:09:27may go train with another jurisdiction,

2:09:29but they're driving it for the K9. They

2:09:32may be driving the K9 to the vet or

2:09:34something because our vehicles have all

2:09:36those safety measures. Y'all probably

2:09:37saw the sad thing happened at the

2:09:38sheriff's office recently where they

2:09:40didn't have those, you know, things to

2:09:42measure the car. So, we do utilize it

2:09:43for that stuff, but nobody uses it for

2:09:45their personal use. They if they are,

2:09:47then they'll lose it.

2:10:04if they're taking it home. Once they get

2:10:07it home, it stays parked till they come

2:10:08back tomorrow. So if like Mayor Pin was

2:10:12asking, if they're going to grocery

2:10:13store or whatever, um you know, they

2:10:16they drive their own personal vehicle.

2:10:22So, um I'm in favor of this take on

2:10:25policy. I want to put that out there. Um

2:10:27I think a lot of the the benefits

2:10:29outweigh the costs I think on on this.

2:10:31And I had questions, but um you had said

2:10:34something the 35 mile kind of limit that

2:10:36was uh very clarifying. The questions

2:10:37that I have is, you know, total miles to

2:10:39and from their home. Um and and maybe

2:10:42how does the how does our affordable

2:10:44housing uh policy decrease that

2:10:47distance?

2:10:49So right now, not many of my officers

2:10:51would fit under the current

2:10:53affordability just because we're

2:10:55fortunate that our salary is high enough

2:10:56that we're competing, right? But it

2:10:58wouldn't fall within that that frame.

2:11:00But I will say if we ever get to a point

2:11:02where more people can live within the

2:11:05municipality, you see even more benefits

2:11:06from it because now I have visible

2:11:08police cars inside of neighborhoods,

2:11:10things of that nature that you see that

2:11:12ends up detering crime. Um, and I think

2:11:15what you may be referring to, Mayor Pum,

2:11:16is that there are some jurisdictions

2:11:18that allow that, but it's because most

2:11:20of officers live in municipality. So,

2:11:22when I allow them to drive it somewhere,

2:11:24that's that visibility piece, right? I

2:11:26see a mark patrol car. So, it tends to

2:11:28deter crime. We just don't have enough

2:11:29here living to to do that. But that's

2:11:33what it would kind of look like. We just

2:11:34don't fit in that that frame right now.

2:11:36But if more living in town, you would

2:11:38see more

2:11:40office.

2:11:42>> I know I personally do. Um

2:11:44>> we have one officer [cough] officer

2:11:47Ghoul stays in Brack,

2:11:49>> right? So what you typically see is the

2:11:51ones that we do have either bought their

2:11:53houses here a long time ago and that's

2:11:55why they came to work for us because of

2:11:57the fact that they want to work in the

2:11:59community live in or they may be in

2:12:02apartment complexes and things of that

2:12:03nature. So I'm not sure exactly how many

2:12:05we have. I could get that number.

2:12:08I I know it's not as many

2:12:10[clears throat] as I would like, but

2:12:11it's just the cost of

2:12:13So this policy

2:12:17can help policies.

2:12:23>> I I can I can definitely look at it. I

2:12:26don't know that I have enough for that

2:12:27to be a benefit right now. Um but that's

2:12:30something we could probably definitely

2:12:31look at. I just I would need to know how

2:12:34many we have. I just don't know we have

2:12:35that many. Plus I need to give them that

2:12:37option too because people need time away

2:12:40from wearing this badge.

2:12:42right just to give them a little bit of

2:12:45a break and and they may be taking their

2:12:47family to grocery. I'm not allowed to

2:12:49put their family too, right? So that's

2:12:51that's kind of part

2:12:55if I can add to that. There are some

2:12:57state statutes that limit what someone

2:12:59can do with a with a taxpayer funded

2:13:02vehicle for their personal use. So we

2:13:04have to be careful about that. Number

2:13:06one. Number two, if we're going to have

2:13:08a police officer in a police vehicle

2:13:10driving around town, we want that

2:13:11officer to be fully equipped and ready

2:13:14to act as something comes up. So, if

2:13:16they hop in a marked patrol car in

2:13:19shorts and a t-shirt to go to the

2:13:21grocery store, they're not really

2:13:23capable of doing what we want them to

2:13:25do. And the image of that is is somewhat

2:13:28cons of a problem. So, um so there's

2:13:31there's a lot more that goes into that.

2:13:33It's the It's the visibility of the car

2:13:35parked somewhere, but it's also the back

2:13:38and forth because now they're in town in

2:13:40town when they're driving back and forth

2:13:42to work more so than they they would be

2:13:44if they were, you know, outside town.

2:13:47>> There's a lot that goes into it. I have

2:13:48to look at from a policy standpoint. We

2:13:50just don't have enough right now for me

2:13:51to say that would be beneficial for

2:13:57>> me. I appreciate the question and I do

2:14:00think we had more something to

2:14:07what I think would be

2:14:10worthwhile to have, but I'm not

2:14:11necessarily expecting us to spend a

2:14:13whole lot of time on it, but essentially

2:14:15um you know, if I could wave my wand and

2:14:17have all the trend data that I wanted

2:14:19to, but uh you know, cost of housing,

2:14:21the distance traveled because of that um

2:14:24and that effect on fleet replacement,

2:14:26right? If we're getting people that

2:14:28because the cost of housing is

2:14:29increasing and it's getting further and

2:14:30further out, right? What does the effect

2:14:32does that have on our fleet replacement

2:14:34if everybody's at the max 35 versus

2:14:36everybody's um the average is a little

2:14:39bit less?

2:14:39>> We looked at it when we first ran this

2:14:41for for budget this last or this this

2:14:44fiscal year we're in now. And while we

2:14:47have some that are that far out, a lot

2:14:50of them we're talking are less mileage

2:14:51than that right now. So I don't know

2:14:52we're to that point.

2:14:54>> Um and I don't know that I would adjust

2:14:57our mileage anymore. it would just be

2:14:58count on them to

2:15:00>> to get there. But it still reduces that

2:15:02response time. It still gives us the

2:15:03operational readiness that we need.

2:15:06>> Um, but yes, to your point, that is a a

2:15:08very good point. As it keeps increasing,

2:15:10we're going to keep seeing people

2:15:11further and further out.

2:15:12>> I to add on that,

2:15:16is there like a value add in giving

2:15:20subsidies to the essential services?

2:15:25Like for example, in terms of housing,

2:15:27if I

2:15:29say the town gives a $500, $1,000

2:15:34to a police officer, and that actually

2:15:37is a cheaper proposition than a fleet,

2:15:41which is $80,000, $90,000,

2:15:44you know, have you done that kind of

2:15:46analysis? I'm I'm saying no. because it

2:15:48there's a value add coming to the

2:15:51affordability you said that the officers

2:15:54don't qualify into that so perfect I get

2:15:57it so as an allowance that will in

2:16:01incentivize them to stay closer to do

2:16:05that

2:16:06>> I person say

2:16:10>> we haven't measured that I think we can

2:16:12to some extent you know that a little

2:16:17challing given you know varying rates

2:16:19and apartments and things and again it's

2:16:22I think for some of the officers it

2:16:24probably is cost but I think for others

2:16:26they don't necessarily want to live in

2:16:28the jurisdiction they serve or they just

2:16:31don't necessarily nothing about morris

2:16:33though but if they're from an area

2:16:35that's nearby they may want to live

2:16:36where they're at some of them still you

2:16:38know live in a family house or family

2:16:40property or things like that

2:16:42>> 100% the fire department is like that

2:16:43they want to stay in the countryside so

2:16:53>> [laughter]

2:16:54>> and town manager brings up a very good

2:16:56point from a police perspective, right?

2:16:58That there are times where we don't want

2:17:00to be in the jurisdiction that we police

2:17:02in just because it's nice to go to a

2:17:04store and not have to worry about other

2:17:05than somebody that you had to charge

2:17:06with crime or whatever, right? So, it it

2:17:09really depends on kind of what they're

2:17:11um you laugh, but I policed in the town

2:17:13I grew up in when I first started. It

2:17:15was not experience sometimes going into

2:17:17the stores. But um so yeah, but I

2:17:19haven't looked at any studies related

2:17:22that

2:17:23>> that only pertains to you, not to him

2:17:25because he's not allowed to take the

2:17:26fire truck home, you know, [laughter]

2:17:30>> I said,

2:17:34>> but thank you. This was very helpful.

2:17:35>> Absolutely. Anything else from here?

2:17:39Sorry. I forgot what your original

2:17:41question was. I told Matt answer for

2:17:43you.

2:17:44>> Yeah. I think your original question was

2:17:47circling back to with the takehome does

2:17:49that look have us looking at extending

2:17:52our replacement criteria

2:17:55and yes we are we are looking at one of

2:17:57the first things when I got here chief

2:17:59and I sat down and first thing on topic

2:18:02that we discussed was this fleet and so

2:18:04he's been we've been very proactive in

2:18:07looking at what we can do uh

2:18:09specifically at the police fleet uh

2:18:11looking at what we're putting into

2:18:13vehicles are there cost savings we can

2:18:14find with our replacements. Um, but I

2:18:17think we both feel very confident in the

2:18:20equipment that we have and that with the

2:18:22way vehicles are constructed now, we can

2:18:26extend usable life. Um, 85,000 miles,

2:18:29you know, we have a few vehicles above

2:18:31that right now um that are operating

2:18:34just fine. Um, our experience so far,

2:18:36especially with these new uh pursuit

2:18:38explorers, has been very positive uh

2:18:41from a maintenance and repairs

2:18:42perspective. We have also brought in a

2:18:45lot of hybrid um pursuit vehicles which

2:18:48do operate you know have much better

2:18:50fuel efficiency um than our regular gas

2:18:54ones. So that helped us on our

2:18:55sustainability front too. Uh and I know

2:18:58one of the things early on when when

2:18:59hybrid technology was a little bit

2:19:01newer. There was concerns about battery

2:19:03life and cost of replacement but that

2:19:05has significantly come down on these

2:19:08Explorers specifically. We're looking

2:19:10it's a very simple replacement um

2:19:13battery replacement and it's about the

2:19:15same cost as a transmission. So it's in

2:19:16that three to$4,000 range. So it is

2:19:20while it is notable, it is something

2:19:22that if we get to that point, we can

2:19:24replace that and you know extend our

2:19:27life and get our for the most part get

2:19:29our money back out of that.

2:19:30>> What about battery disposal? We're also

2:19:32trying to meet a sustainability we're

2:19:34also trying to meet certain

2:19:35sustainability goals.

2:19:37>> Yeah. So, I have not looked into that

2:19:39because we haven't had to replace any

2:19:41hybrid batteries yet because our current

2:19:44program is getting a place that we're

2:19:46replacing vehicles before they're

2:19:47getting closer to that end of life

2:19:50battery cycle, but I can certainly look

2:19:52at what we think about that in the long

2:19:54term.

2:19:54>> Man, if we had to replace a battery in a

2:19:57vehicle, would our staff be doing that

2:19:58work or would it go to a dealer? that

2:20:00would have to go out for.

2:20:01>> So if it went to a dealer, the dealer

2:20:02would have some policy and some process

2:20:06around replacing or around disposal of

2:20:08that battery. And there are some

2:20:09regulations around that as well. So the

2:20:11town wouldn't necessarily have the uh

2:20:14opportunity or responsibility to do

2:20:16anything with that now used up battery

2:20:18system.

2:20:22So we are actively looking at what we

2:20:24can do to extend this and given this

2:20:27year's fiscal picture and potentially

2:20:29next year's we are looking at all of our

2:20:32fleet vehicles. Are there things we can

2:20:33do from a cost savings perspective when

2:20:35it comes to replacing make sure we're

2:20:36right sizing looking at assignments

2:20:39where it fits within departments but

2:20:41then also if it doesn't fit within

2:20:43department look at it somewhere else so

2:20:46we do we have that those processes in

2:20:48place in our policy right now. So

2:20:50obviously uh you may have to triage a

2:20:54little bit and then be really helpful to

2:20:56me to know when the cost of keeping

2:20:59something going exceeds what the

2:21:02replacement would be just from a fiscal

2:21:06responsibility standpoint.

2:21:07>> But is that where we want to be? That's

2:21:09a question. Like there's I mean I've

2:21:11driven cars into the ground to where the

2:21:14point of replacing them or doing work on

2:21:17them was it was just cheaper to go buy

2:21:20But also, I mean, I think obviously I I

2:21:24don't have to tell you this, but I mean,

2:21:25we do want to maintain a certain quality

2:21:28standard,

2:21:30>> like what's the difference between a

2:21:32police car with 85,000 miles on a police

2:21:34car with 100,000 miles on? Is it I mean,

2:21:37is it still operationally ready? Like,

2:21:39can it do a pursuit or do like what can

2:21:42it what's the kind of the what's the

2:21:45criteria? Not just miles, right? Like

2:21:48what's the criteria that we look at when

2:21:50we're

2:21:51>> like we've got to replace that, you've

2:21:53got to replace that. You've got to

2:21:55replace that. You've got to replace

2:21:57that.

2:21:57>> Initial criteria. And then we start

2:21:59looking at condition score which is made

2:22:01up of how much cost has already gone

2:22:03into that vehicle versus the replacement

2:22:05cost. And then looking at like the

2:22:07actual physical appearances. Does it

2:22:09have chipping paint? Is rust starting to

2:22:11build up? Is the interior in good shape?

2:22:13Um, so we take all those factors in to

2:22:16really help us narrow down to what do we

2:22:18actually need to repair, not just

2:22:19relying on something that's hitting

2:22:21triggers and starting the replacement

2:22:23process.

2:22:24>> And it meets its per purpose. It can

2:22:26still function, I guess, the main.

2:22:28>> Yes,

2:22:29>> that's what she's asking about a police

2:22:30vehicle. Once it stops functioning,

2:22:31being safe for the officer,

2:22:33>> then that's got to go top of the list,

2:22:35right?

2:22:35>> Correct. That makes sense.

2:22:38I think it's important to mention that

2:22:39Matt and I have a standing meeting at

2:22:41least quarterly to talk about the fleet.

2:22:43So if we're seeing those issues, he and

2:22:45I can address those, right? Then to your

2:22:48point, a lot of that goes into what does

2:22:49the maintenance cost look like, right?

2:22:51Because I've been in police cars where

2:22:52they had 60,000 miles on it, couldn't

2:22:54barely function just because it was kind

2:22:56of a limit of the vehicle and I've had

2:22:57someone with 120,000 that ran great,

2:23:00right? It's just kind of one of those

2:23:00things, but we have a standing meeting

2:23:02to where we talk about this on a regular

2:23:04basis.

2:23:15Yes. So we complete per maintenance

2:23:17checks in house. We do simple oil

2:23:19changes. Um so right now we are moving

2:23:23into a more proactive model to make sure

2:23:24we get vehicles in on a better

2:23:27frequency. Um, you know, we have our,

2:23:30you know, police and fire, we've got a

2:23:32really good reaction or not reaction, we

2:23:34have really good response to making sure

2:23:35those are brought in because they're so

2:23:37active. You know, people live in their

2:23:39vehicles to to a certain extent. Um,

2:23:42we're working to get more proactive on

2:23:44bringing vehicles in, but we get

2:23:46everything in no matter how far they've

2:23:48been driven. We bring them in at least

2:23:49once a year and make sure that they get

2:23:51their oil change, full inspection, make

2:23:53sure we maximize

2:23:58checkups.

2:24:00>> Uh so that would be on departments. We

2:24:02ask departments to just do a very simple

2:24:04walk around look if there's anything

2:24:06wrong with it. We're not asking anybody

2:24:07to do deep dive into anything. That's

2:24:10where we are. But anything with vehicle

2:24:14warning lights or anything like that

2:24:15coming on, we want to break that into

2:24:17those things.

2:24:33a little louder. Council member

2:24:35>> Patel

2:24:38has PMCS

2:24:42where they

2:24:45do some basic check

2:25:00fire apparatus they check every morning

2:25:03when they come on

2:25:04make sure everything's there where it

2:25:06needs to be.

2:25:06>> Officers check theirs daily and then

2:25:08there's a monthly inspection that a

2:25:09supervisor does to make sure we're not

2:25:11missing something.

2:25:13>> Yeah, our public safety ones are I'm

2:25:15thinking more about some of the ones

2:25:16that are shared vehicles. So, we're

2:25:19looking how we can improve that to make

2:25:21sure those are getting as much attention

2:25:23paid to them as the ones that are

2:25:25getting daily.

2:25:30>> So, um I don't know if you can or not.

2:25:34Maybe Jeie can remember somebody from

2:25:36Genie. Um, has has it always been at 85?

2:25:41Has this policy always been the same?

2:25:44>> Has it always been 85,000? Yes.

2:25:47>> I can't speak to the how long it's been

2:25:49or what was before, but this been in

2:25:51place since 2022 and was updated in

2:25:542023. So, I can't talk to how much it

2:25:57was like before. [cough]

2:25:59>> It's changed over the years.

2:26:04>> [clears throat]

2:26:04>> And I think it's depend

2:26:09how our today have evolved and actually

2:26:14capable of long

2:26:17that's what I hear

2:26:29fire meat is

2:26:34police.

2:26:39Okay. Yeah. And so that's my

2:26:40recollection that it was not it was it

2:26:44was it was a policy where it was of a

2:26:47lesser threshold. It was a and so I

2:26:50guess what I'm and you're right Jeie

2:26:52maybe it's you know because equipment

2:26:55has changed over time so clearly our

2:26:57policy needs to be updated over time.

2:27:00But I was just curious as to and maybe

2:27:02we don't track this, maybe we should

2:27:04start tracking it if we change the

2:27:07policy. Um, what does that I mean, you

2:27:10know, we can sit here and speculate, you

2:27:13know, can we can we go to 100? Can we go

2:27:16to 125 um before we need to replace

2:27:19vehicles? But we need to track this to

2:27:22make sure. And maybe you are now, maybe

2:27:25we weren't 10 or and oh, by the way, it

2:27:28was way more than 10 years ago. It was

2:27:3020 plus years ago when we when we

2:27:32adopted this take-home car policy. It

2:27:34was I don't even know what it was

2:27:36>> in the police department.

2:27:38>> Yeah. I I didn't know when we did. I was

2:27:40just around the country. It was about 15

2:27:43maybe years ago that everybody kind of

2:27:45did. Y'all were behind. Y'all were ahead

2:27:46of time.

2:27:47>> We were ahead. We were We were always

2:27:49been ahead.

2:27:50>> And I appreciate that as the police

2:27:51chief that y'all ahead of time. But

2:27:53anyhow, I I guess that's where I'm if

2:27:56we're gonna if we're going to move this

2:27:59goalpost. Um I want to know how that how

2:28:04that tracks and what that means and and

2:28:06make sure that we're keeping that data

2:28:09so we know the next time this

2:28:11conversation comes up. Um did it work,

2:28:13didn't it work? Um should we, shouldn't

2:28:16we? That kind of thing.

2:28:18>> Data driven decision making.

2:28:19>> Yeah. And if we had We had tracked this

2:28:22back in the day and then you know would

2:28:25make it would help today. We'd have some

2:28:28data to look at today to say this is not

2:28:30going to be a big deal to move the

2:28:32goalpost in 2026

2:28:35or not.

2:28:36>> Yeah. And when we're looking

2:28:37specifically at this this police

2:28:39criteria, we do have a few police

2:28:41vehicles that are well beyond say

2:28:4390,000. So we are we are you know making

2:28:46our choices when we are replacing these

2:28:48if they are past the threshold but

2:28:50they're still operationally fine we're

2:28:52keeping them in. So we are trying to be

2:28:54very

2:28:54>> driven in how we select

2:28:58>> good yeah this is just a kind of goal

2:29:00recommendation not a we must

2:29:04>> okay before we leave that um I think a

2:29:06couple [clears throat] things there one

2:29:07is technology is helping us right so in

2:29:10terms of policing

2:29:12more more current of office and now

2:29:15we're really relying on SharePoint.

2:29:16We're going to have all those versions

2:29:18that are automatically created and

2:29:19saved. And then the other piece of this

2:29:22is that you know I'll give you perhaps a

2:29:24budget preview that there's likely an

2:29:26ask coming from public works for fleet

2:29:29software. So the software we have is

2:29:31very [clears throat] very very dated,

2:29:33very very limited um in in what it can

2:29:37do versus what it should be able to do

2:29:39to automate a lot of this to make better

2:29:41use of AI and all that sort of thing. So

2:29:44back to those contracted software that's

2:29:47that's an example where you know we need

2:29:49a better tool to allow M

2:29:52>> and that comes because we have a big

2:29:54fleet now too. So it comes as you grow

2:29:57and yeah [clears throat]

2:29:58different Yep, that's exactly right. I

2:30:00>> I would like to add that um while we

2:30:02talk a lot about years and miles, uh it

2:30:05is also effective. It's much harder to

2:30:07measure and that's hours. So engine

2:30:09hours uh in in public safety vehicles

2:30:12because they're sitting at scenes idling

2:30:14because they've got to have the lights

2:30:15on and so on. And so that adds a wear

2:30:18and tear. So part of the way we can

2:30:20determine that is the maintenance

2:30:21records and if there's if there's some

2:30:24impact to that if we're seeing higher

2:30:26maintenance records uh and so on. Uh but

2:30:29that is a factor we have to um

2:30:32include uh for certainly public safety

2:30:35vehicles and even so public works

2:30:36vehicles could have to do the same

2:30:38thing. So um

2:30:41you had something before.

2:30:42>> Yeah.

2:30:43>> Okay.

2:30:44>> So uh remind me how much did we allocate

2:30:46this year to the

2:30:50um fleet replacements?

2:30:54>> And the target is 500,000. Again, that

2:30:58target could adjust a little bit. I

2:31:00think particularly as we look at what

2:31:01these new mileage limits are going to be

2:31:04and what's the the length of service of

2:31:06some of these vehicles, but you know, to

2:31:08what I spoke to earlier, you know, we

2:31:10really need to get away from thinking

2:31:12that it's okay to not fund a leak

2:31:15replacement because it's just kicking it

2:31:16down the curve. Now, again, in some

2:31:18cases, new criteria may make that not as

2:31:20significant, but you know, we've got

2:31:23vehicles that are in need of replacement

2:31:25and we may or may not be able to this

2:31:27year because we are missing you know

2:31:31sort of [snorts]

2:31:32what 40% 60% of you know what

2:31:36theoretically should have been

2:31:38>> so

2:31:40not quite yet but um the base allocation

2:31:44target is 500k annually that's based on

2:31:47the policy

2:31:49>> so that's just a target that we've

2:31:51established internally it's not written

2:31:53in the policy that we're looking at $500

2:31:56what's historically.

2:31:57>> Sure. I would be interested in knowing

2:32:00um you know what I guess two sides of

2:32:03this. What what effect does a policy

2:32:06change have on the base allocation

2:32:08target? But then also um at different

2:32:13base allocation levels um you know how

2:32:17does how does that impact the operations

2:32:20of um the fleet?

2:32:24>> Yeah, that's something I want to move to

2:32:26this year. You kind of alluded to it at

2:32:28the beginning of rather than

2:32:31trying to figure out how much money is

2:32:33available to go towards this. I want to

2:32:35present here's everything that is

2:32:36eligible for replacement and creating

2:32:38separate tiers to really understand like

2:32:40what is something that we looked at

2:32:42that's hit the different triggers for us

2:32:44to be looking at now really looking a

2:32:46little bit deeper into actual data.

2:32:48Which vehicle truly needs to get

2:32:51replaced? Something that is not going to

2:32:52last operationally that much longer. So

2:32:54we are the direction I want to go and

2:32:56present that in tears of here's where

2:32:58we're looking at so you guys have a

2:33:00better idea of what our recommendations

2:33:02are from a fleet replacement perspective

2:33:06uh to help decision making on that but

2:33:09yes we can definitely look at the second

2:33:10piece you mentioned of by changing this

2:33:13we can start trending out and try to

2:33:15make some predictions on what it's going

2:33:16to look like

2:33:18so I can certainly see you guys more as

2:33:22we get to the real budget planning

2:33:23process

2:33:26And then is this primarily uh would this

2:33:28primarily be funded through adalorum

2:33:31revenue?

2:33:32>> I mean given that's our largest funding

2:33:34source, but it really would be funded by

2:33:38the revenue that we

2:33:40don't particularly assign versus sales

2:33:43tax

2:33:45>> just whatever we have.

2:33:47>> It's essentially a bucket of revenues

2:33:49outside of anything that's restricted.

2:33:57So, um,

2:33:59Chief, you have convinced me with all

2:34:02the questions and answers. So, with a

2:34:04take home, my

2:34:07last question is, how much does a police

2:34:10vehicle cost today?

2:34:14>> So, uh, a vehicle with upfit brand new,

2:34:17we're looking between 85 and $9,000.

2:34:20>> Yeah. with all everything in. Okay,

2:34:23>> perfect. Then what is your policy

2:34:26when you retire a vehicle? How much of

2:34:29the equipment can be recycled or what is

2:34:33your what how does it work?

2:34:36>> Yeah. So, we look to try and retain as

2:34:38much as we can. The challenging part

2:34:39gets to is if um the vehicle Ford's made

2:34:44any changes to the model, but we do try

2:34:46to replace carry over our radios and

2:34:49some of the those on those things like

2:34:51that we can absolutely there's some

2:34:53things beyond that like cages and some

2:34:55other equipment that when they make body

2:34:57change that we just can't re

2:34:59>> yeah I'm not worried about that like

2:35:00basically the main things like equipment

2:35:02and all those things so that can go to a

2:35:05new vehicle okay

2:35:07>> we are looking at things that have

2:35:08usable life we are trying to take those

2:35:11and make sure we repurpose those other

2:35:13vehicles

2:35:14>> okay

2:35:16>> and talk about what you do with those

2:35:18vehicles when they retire them, we sell

2:35:20them.

2:35:22>> Correct. We hold up that our best

2:35:24replace, we have a surplus. So when we

2:35:26do have PD vehicles, specifically PD

2:35:29vehicles that go down and we need

2:35:30replacements, we do have have a standby

2:35:34vehicles at our shop that we can that

2:35:36way police can stay, you know, fully

2:35:38staffed and all their equipment up and

2:35:40running. Uh but once we get to

2:35:42replacement, we end up stripping them of

2:35:44all their uh materials and then we

2:35:47auction them off.

2:35:52Oh, excuse me. Go ahead.

2:35:54>> Oh, all I was getting ready to say was

2:35:56sorry. That's an important piece of that

2:35:58life cycle uh calculation, that life

2:36:00cycle discussion. Um, you know, if we

2:36:02run the vehicle all the way down to

2:36:04where it has no useful life afterward,

2:36:06then we can't really surplus it and sell

2:36:08it for very much, if anything.

2:36:10um you know, the ability to turn these

2:36:12vehicles over when we've reached

2:36:13whatever that criteria is does maximize

2:36:16the amount that we can ultimately uh

2:36:18surplus those vehicles for. Whether

2:36:20that's going uh you know, through the GV

2:36:22deals process and going to private um

2:36:25you know, private uh residents or if

2:36:27it's going to other municipalities that

2:36:29might ultimately decide to buy those

2:36:30through gals to use in their particular

2:36:33fleets as well. So

2:36:35>> you you gave me a perfect segue on that

2:36:36question. Okay. So, um what's the cost

2:36:40of stripping?

2:36:43>> Uh so, we do a lot of it in house on the

2:36:45stripping part. So, I don't we don't

2:36:47have like a contracted services that I

2:36:49can give you. But if you

2:36:52>> No, I'm not just like And then what's

2:36:55the option? How much do you guys get out

2:36:58of that?

2:36:59>> Uh that's a number I don't have off

2:37:01hand.

2:37:04>> And I'll say it varies. Um it varies

2:37:06based on you know obviously the quality

2:37:08of the vehicles also the you know just

2:37:11the the demand for vehicles in general.

2:37:13Um you know one of the just anecdotally

2:37:17we saw a large increase in um you know

2:37:20the the demand for um certain types of

2:37:24vehicles during COVID times when

2:37:26vehicles were constantly skyrocketing so

2:37:28that a new the the price for a new

2:37:30vehicle was not necessarily cost

2:37:32effective for every municipality across

2:37:34the country. And so a lot of them did

2:37:36utilize the ability to purchase those um

2:37:39used vehicles through deals from other

2:37:42municipalities. So it really does vary

2:37:44um you know on on lots of different

2:37:47criteria. It's hard to just give you a

2:37:49number um just off the bat.

2:37:52>> I kind of know it because the Ford is

2:37:5440,000 and then the equipment is like

2:37:56all the 40,000

2:37:57>> and this is Ford. It's not like a German

2:37:59or this one. The value goes really low.

2:38:02>> I think even if you get 3,000. I would

2:38:05be surprised.

2:38:06>> I'm confident that staff is squeezing

2:38:08everything we can out of these assets.

2:38:11Um, do you feel like you've hit

2:38:13>> these three or is there still more?

2:38:16>> I feel like I've addressing unless

2:38:17there's more questions.

2:38:21>> Um, the surplus

2:38:24uh would that go into the general fund

2:38:28and that would just get allocated

2:38:30wherever [clears throat] get allocated?

2:38:32Is there

2:38:34is there some way to tie

2:38:38the fleet replacement allocation to the

2:38:40surplus that we have coming in? Right?

2:38:42Because that would ultimately

2:38:45one one affects the other to a certain

2:38:47extent. Right. The the less we allocate

2:38:50this, the less we get on surplus.

2:38:54>> Yeah. I guess probably

2:38:59>> Yeah. So um at the end of the day that

2:39:01surplus is really looked to be it's it's

2:39:03looked at as a supplement to whatever we

2:39:05ultimately allocate for fleet

2:39:07replacement. It's not meant to fund the

2:39:09fleet replacement just outright. And the

2:39:12reason for that is exactly what I talked

2:39:13about a second ago. It is variable in

2:39:16terms of how much we're ultimately going

2:39:18to get. So I I hate to hes I I hesitate

2:39:20to go in and say if we sell six vehicles

2:39:22this year, we're going to bring in

2:39:24$50,000, no questions asked. Um we might

2:39:27bring in more, but we very well might

2:39:29bring in less. And so to to tie those

2:39:32numbers directly to whatever we're going

2:39:34to ultimately allocate uh for future

2:39:36vehicles ends up being a little bit um

2:39:39it ends up being risky basically. So it

2:39:42ultimately just serves as um a little

2:39:45bit more of a supplement. Um the same

2:39:47would go for if we have to replace

2:39:49vehicles due to a wreck or something

2:39:52else that happens with the vehicle that

2:39:54ultimately tries to go in as a

2:39:55supplement to purchase that next one. Um

2:39:58but It's it's not necessarily just

2:40:00looked at as being part of our funding

2:40:03uh requirements for those vehicles. It's

2:40:05it's it's extra funding that we

2:40:07ultimately get that maybe helps us

2:40:09either you know move a vehicle forward

2:40:11um in that replacement schedule or you

2:40:14know where we in initially plan for four

2:40:17maybe we have the ability to get those.

2:40:19>> Yeah. Yeah. But I guess the point that

2:40:20I'm making is that the the whatever

2:40:23policy we come up with, whatever

2:40:24allocation we we put in, it will have an

2:40:27effect on that surplus value though not

2:40:30in a way that could be really tracked

2:40:32and measured and whatnot. Right. So

2:40:33that's just more of a

2:40:36just putting it out there that you know

2:40:38that that is that is a downstream effect

2:40:40of the decisions that we make.

2:40:53Yes, that's

2:40:55>> right. It is significantly different and

2:40:57because we do have a a separate reserve

2:41:00for fire apparatus, we do send that back

2:41:02to that capital reserve. So, and not to

2:41:05mention the fact that what we end up

2:41:07getting back for the surplus of a fire

2:41:10apparatus is significantly more than we

2:41:12would get for any other vehicle. And so

2:41:14that does help supplement what

2:41:16ultimately we're putting back into those

2:41:18vehicles and does help kind of build our

2:41:20future liability when it comes to

2:41:22purchasing um you know additional

2:41:24apparatus way down the road, not just

2:41:26for the next fiscal year.

2:41:28>> That's not to say that Dulie takes

2:41:30better care of his stuff than Ross.

2:41:33>> Not saying that. The only I want to add

2:41:35is on that chart, you know that life

2:41:37cycle sounds like that's

2:41:41just service that we keep that for

2:41:45another 10.

2:41:48We don't just get rid of

2:41:5018.

2:41:56>> Yes.

2:41:59>> So, how much how much does it fetch? You

2:42:01know, just curious when you sell it.

2:42:06>> How much?

2:42:06>> Not as much as you would think. I think

2:42:08we got 35,000 ladder.

2:42:10>> Just the number because 35,000 we got

2:42:13>> I think we got the juice out of it,

2:42:15right?

2:42:17>> Yes.

2:42:19>> And then two other quick comments and

2:42:21we'll start transition over

2:42:24that. You know, one I think is that

2:42:26within the last 24 months we have done a

2:42:28pretty deep dive into

2:42:31P and fire in terms of particularly what

2:42:34are fleet shared vehicles but also

2:42:36assigned vehicles to departments to look

2:42:38at does everybody need the vehicles to

2:42:40have a sign you know because we found

2:42:42everything from a vehicle got you know

2:42:4420,000 miles on it to a vehicle got

2:42:465,000 miles on it or less in a year and

2:42:49so there was some reduction in fleet I

2:42:51mean one or two vehicles not a ton but

2:42:53we did reduce fleet a little bit we also

2:42:55shifted some vehicles so they were

2:42:56getting used and not just sitting and

2:42:58waiting for that occasional I think

2:43:00that's one thing. Another thing I would

2:43:02mention in terms of the partnership

2:43:04between the PD and fleet is another

2:43:06thing they're looking at right now is

2:43:08not necessarily every vehicle in the PD

2:43:11has to be a police first responder

2:43:13vehicle. That adds to the cost of the

2:43:15vehicle. Um, so they are looking,

2:43:17there's no decisions been made, but they

2:43:18are looking at what alternate vehicles

2:43:21might be purchased that aren't going to

2:43:22be as expensive as a fully equipped

2:43:25police car to reduce some of that cost.

2:43:27And then that type of vehicle would go

2:43:29with admin and and maybe with detectives

2:43:32and folks that don't typically have to

2:43:34run emergency traffic lights and siren

2:43:37as a part of their job. So just a couple

2:43:39of points that we we have been doing

2:43:42things proactively and they are doing

2:43:44their best to be as creative as they can

2:43:46around the fleet and cost as

2:43:52all right. So um we're going to move

2:43:55into staffing. So what I asked staff to

2:43:57do was to give us basically a five-year

2:44:01outlook on what they felt they would

2:44:03need from a staffing standpoint. Um, we

2:44:06made a couple of assumptions on like

2:44:08assume for a minute there could be a

2:44:10community center. I understand there's

2:44:11no decisions made, but being realistic,

2:44:14you know, if that happens sort of thing.

2:44:16Um, and so they looked at, you know,

2:44:18current year what they got and maybe

2:44:19what they'd asked for and then four

2:44:21additional years to look out over that.

2:44:24And so over the course of that

2:44:26additional four years, there is a

2:44:28request a total of 50 5 positions

2:44:30[clears throat]

2:44:31which we increase our staffing by about

2:44:3318% over the course of the future. Um

2:44:37not surprisingly a majority of those

2:44:39vehicles are vehicles we're done talking

2:44:42about vehicles majority of those people

2:44:44um are in public safety. Um so 19

2:44:47requests from the police department uh

2:44:4913 requests from fire. So in terms of

2:44:52fire, that is almost exclusively to put

2:44:55engine 22 in service as our fifth

2:44:58frontline apparatus. Um that again is a

2:45:01part of that transition back to engine

2:45:03ladder. Um so that engine can speak

2:45:07certainly more fluently than I about

2:45:08this, but that engine would ensure that

2:45:11we are using the full engine ladder

2:45:13model. It would also provide some

2:45:14protection the ladder 22 not having to

2:45:17be on the road as often with the engine

2:45:19there. And again, it also sort of

2:45:21fulfills our commitment to the CAM

2:45:23model. Um, the 13th position there is

2:45:25for a training captain. Again, they have

2:45:28been running their own academy doors.

2:45:30And as you can imagine, training just

2:45:32continues to increase. You know, there's

2:45:34there's never going to be, oh, we're not

2:45:35going to do that anymore. There's always

2:45:36more opportunities, some of which is

2:45:38required training, some of which is the

2:45:41ability to do other things.

2:45:43Chief, you want to speak briefly to your

2:45:46leadership program you installed?

2:45:50>> Uh, yes. Some of that would require a

2:45:52captain position looking to realign some

2:45:55current positions that we have really,

2:45:59but it could go beyond five years

2:46:03for that. But what I wanted to realign

2:46:05is our training going into a training

2:46:09logistics team so that they can put some

2:46:11logistics that we're doing right now

2:46:14online personnel are doing to lift that

2:46:15up. The planning chief I would like to

2:46:18see longterm develop into administrative

2:46:20chief and pick up some of the budget

2:46:21responsibilities so that I can take the

2:46:24deputy chief and take some logistic

2:46:26stuff that he's doing and make him more

2:46:28of a emergency management take on some

2:46:30emergency management responsibilities

2:46:31that I think would be a benefit to our

2:46:33department.

2:46:35So looking to realign some of that

2:46:38what I'm looking at internally then

2:46:39looking at our office administrator he's

2:46:42planning to go out six years could I

2:46:44make that instead of a somebody that

2:46:46helps with the low level

2:46:49since I took the budget

2:46:52be

2:46:53hire somebody

2:47:02watching.

2:47:04That's what I had for as far as

2:47:05administration changes

2:47:12discuss yours.

2:47:14>> Sure. I think uh for mine you will see

2:47:17requests that will

2:47:19when we talk about I think y'all have

2:47:21already discussed this the level of

2:47:23service that we provide to to our

2:47:24community. A lot of mine are to address

2:47:27to where we can provide that higher

2:47:29level of service that we should be

2:47:30providing um in all honesty and keep in

2:47:34mind that some of these are just due to

2:47:36how investigations go. So, you'll see in

2:47:39there drug uh drug positions, the impact

2:47:42unit's great, but I'm using them to

2:47:44address things in the community like

2:47:46vehicle breakins, things that are

2:47:47short-term investigations that I need

2:47:49them to kind of move around with. But we

2:47:51have other investigations in town,

2:47:53drugrelated possibly, things like that

2:47:55that just take maybe a year to two years

2:47:58for a full investigation. So, it would

2:48:00give positions to allocate towards that.

2:48:02That would make it to where we can

2:48:04actually do that for the community and

2:48:05make sure we're addressing all the

2:48:07crimes here. Um, and then some of those

2:48:10are uh SRO POS or at least one more SRO

2:48:13position because we agreed to take the

2:48:14high school, which thank you for that.

2:48:16That is definitely something our

2:48:18community needs because that will be

2:48:19more so kids going to that high school.

2:48:21So, I want to make sure we have those

2:48:22positive interactions. [clears throat]

2:48:24Um, and then the other pieces of these

2:48:27you'll see are just to ease some

2:48:29workload on some staff and give some

2:48:31specialized positions. One being a crime

2:48:33analyst. We're very data driven and

2:48:36right now Tanaga is doing a great job

2:48:38splitting that between accreditation and

2:48:40managing our RMS system and doing uh

2:48:42analytics but it's very difficult unless

2:48:45you're really in that field. So that

2:48:46would add a position to allow us to

2:48:49provide a little bit more of a data

2:48:50driven approach to ours and to answer a

2:48:53lot of council and and uh you know

2:48:55residents questions on okay what does

2:48:57this look like for the police department

2:48:59through that those uh analytics we'll be

2:49:01able to do that. [clears throat] So

2:49:02that's kind of high level what those ask

2:49:05are.

2:49:05>> So that's actually an example of

2:49:07something where I would have a question

2:49:10about is that something that we can put

2:49:13some training toward and skill a person

2:49:16up to the data analysis that's required

2:49:19for that type of position because that

2:49:22like that's not something where you need

2:49:25a ton of you know a ton of uplift. It's

2:49:28really more about the tools and the, you

2:49:31know, and the the insights that can be

2:49:33derived from the data.

2:49:34>> So, is that something, you know, do we

2:49:36need a person to do that or do we need

2:49:39to skill up the person that's currently

2:49:41doing it?

2:49:41>> I think right right now in the police

2:49:43department, I would just because of the

2:49:44fact that Tanaha has so much on her

2:49:46because as as a former accreditation

2:49:48manager myself, I can tell you that's a

2:49:50full-time job in itself. So you you're

2:49:53correct that the training will help but

2:49:54I just don't think I have the personnel

2:49:56to that even if I provide them the

2:49:58training right now that they could

2:49:59devote that much time to it for kind of

2:50:02what we're looking for. So uh but

2:50:04absolutely the training would definitely

2:50:05help.

2:50:06>> You like having the impact team and I

2:50:08hear about predictive analysis of where

2:50:10crime could happen then you could be in

2:50:11front of it. I mean that's where I would

2:50:14love Morrisville to to move if possible.

2:50:17>> Yes sir. and and that's where we're

2:50:18looking to move because we're we're

2:50:20unique in the the fact of, you know, our

2:50:23our our square mileage is is relatively

2:50:26small to other jurisdictions, but we're

2:50:27bordered by Raleigh and Durham, which

2:50:29adds a lot of moving parts for me, let's

2:50:32say, for uh what we have to do as far as

2:50:35investigations and things. So, and we're

2:50:37looking at other partnerships and stuff

2:50:38to help offset that. But those are

2:50:40positions that when I look at a need for

2:50:42us and what we need to do to make sure

2:50:43we're addressing everything we should as

2:50:45a police department. That's where those

2:50:46positions came from. Also highlighting,

2:50:48and I don't remember if I already said

2:50:49this, some of those positions are the

2:50:52ones we were talking about where I would

2:50:53apply for a grant funding so we can at

2:50:56least push, you know, the cost for the

2:50:58town kind of down the road so we kind of

2:51:00grow responsibly in the police

2:51:01department, right? So, um, that's one

2:51:04thing we're looking at for some of those

2:51:05positions.

2:51:07>> Thanks, Chief. So, as you look at the

2:51:09others, I'll start at the top and work

2:51:11around the 0.25 is an admin. So, you

2:51:14recall we created an assistant to the

2:51:16town manager position when she was in

2:51:19retired from the fire department. So,

2:51:21that still exists. It's a three/4er time

2:51:23position. It's not currently filled. I

2:51:25haven't done that because of other a

2:51:27variety of other reasons. Um but there

2:51:29is certainly the need for that resource

2:51:32on on any number of different fronts

2:51:34whether it's an admin or if we use it

2:51:36somewhere but that would be a small ask

2:51:38just to add the additional resources and

2:51:40bring that to a full-time position. Uh

2:51:42next to that economic development

2:51:44Tiffany has a request basically just

2:51:46another staff member to help with

2:51:47workload and continuing to look at not

2:51:50only retention but also excuse me not

2:51:52only recruitment but also retention both

2:51:55larger companies smaller businesses. You

2:51:57can businesses, you can see businesses,

2:52:00you can see businesses, you can see

2:52:02other projects. And then um you know,

2:52:04Amelia, we brought her full time earlier

2:52:06this year and she still has so much more

2:52:09she could do. So that might be a

2:52:11position to help both to some extent

2:52:14that's out there.

2:52:14>> I just had one thing. I was at Greater

2:52:16Raleigh Convention and Visitors Bureau

2:52:18where they gave PA's ice cream an award

2:52:22and unbeknownst to me, they do the

2:52:24manufacturing in Morrisville or they

2:52:26used they needed more space and I wasn't

2:52:30even aware. So I would have loved to

2:52:32connect her with our econ development

2:52:34and try to help them um stay within

2:52:38Morrisville. So the retention is

2:52:39something that I think that maybe we

2:52:41haven't had the resources to really pay

2:52:43as much attention to. And I think that's

2:52:46where when redevelopment happens,

2:52:48there's a real opportunity for us to

2:52:49make sure that we're making the most out

2:52:51of what we've got and keeping it because

2:52:54it's easier to keep a customer than to

2:52:57get a new customer.

2:52:58>> And also to Satisha's point earlier, I

2:53:00mean there are positions that pay for

2:53:03themselves

2:53:04>> and for sure economic development

2:53:07resources are am that are among that

2:53:09category.

2:53:15>> I'm sorry.

2:53:17Can we go back to the police for like

2:53:19one second? Sure.

2:53:20>> Because So I understand that, you know,

2:53:23we want to get in front of crime, etc.

2:53:25But 19 police officers still seems like

2:53:28a lot of police officers to add to a

2:53:32town that's pretty well built out, you

2:53:34know. So just could you just maybe talk

2:53:36about that a little more? Sure. So, um I

2:53:40I agree. It seems like a lot, but I mean

2:53:43as police chief looking at it, I think

2:53:45we fell behind on staffing. I don't know

2:53:47where that happened. When you look at

2:53:49our population compared to other

2:53:51municipalities,

2:53:53I feel like we we should be much higher

2:53:55in the number of officers and staffing

2:53:56that we have. I don't know where that

2:53:59happened. I'm not trying to second guess

2:54:00what happened years ago, right? But from

2:54:03the way I look at it, it kind of goes

2:54:05into what I was talking about. What

2:54:06service level do we want to provide? Do

2:54:09I have enough officers we can go out

2:54:10here and answer 911 calls and do that

2:54:12stuff? Absolutely. But as as

2:54:16my my view, I want us to make sure that

2:54:18we are addressing all the community

2:54:20needs and we're out here and we're being

2:54:21proactive and engaging with the

2:54:22community. That's why you see community

2:54:24police officers in there because right

2:54:26now our staff has taken that on

2:54:28themselves and it adds to their duties

2:54:30with trying to increase the amount of

2:54:31that we're out in the community. And I

2:54:33think over the last year you've seen

2:54:35that we have definitely increased that

2:54:36and it will continue to increase. But

2:54:39those are just some of the things. So

2:54:41right now another thing is kind of

2:54:43comfort level from officer safety

2:54:45standpoint. That's why you see seven

2:54:47would give us the additional and you

2:54:49know on our patrol staffing because what

2:54:52we've seen too is we've adjusted how we

2:54:54respond to things for an officer safety.

2:54:57So take for example, if I only have five

2:54:59officers, right now fully staffed squad,

2:55:01seven, but maybe I have two on vacation.

2:55:03If I had five people working in town, if

2:55:06two domestics come out at one time, I

2:55:08now have one person covering the town

2:55:10town entire town of Morrisville. So from

2:55:13an officer safety standpoint, that's not

2:55:15great when I have one left. So kind of

2:55:18what we're looking at. So really, it's a

2:55:21kind of a change in philosophy on how we

2:55:22respond to things, the direction we're

2:55:24going for the community. But really, I

2:55:27don't know. And it may have been during

2:55:28some of those recessions and stuff, we

2:55:29just kind of fell behind where we maybe

2:55:31should be as a police department for a

2:55:33community this size.

2:55:34>> So, this is an effort to catch up as

2:55:37well as in some areas provide different

2:55:40services.

2:55:40>> Yes, ma'am.

2:55:41>> Thank you.

2:55:43interre.

2:55:52>> So this would be page 13 in the FAQ.

2:55:57>> So

2:56:01um my my question is

2:56:06sustainability of these. Okay. Like I I

2:56:11can understand all the levels of service

2:56:13[snorts] everything you can add you know

2:56:17we'll have the best service but I just

2:56:21cannot foresight the growth in the next

2:56:25five years that we have to sustain and

2:56:29for me I want more scrutiny on every

2:56:32position that goes in because we are not

2:56:35here to let people go and that's not

2:56:38what we because we train them and they I

2:56:41have lot of domain knowledge

2:56:44and that's my biggest fear. The numbers

2:56:47really scares the heck out of me because

2:56:50that is amount of the retirement fund

2:56:54amount of the old things. That's a

2:56:56different ar conversation. I want to

2:56:58bring it up later but I I don't see a

2:57:01pattern of

2:57:04how we could sustain this. So basically

2:57:06any

2:57:08we are growing at 3%

2:57:11might be one two years by I don't know

2:57:13like after that it's done. So I agree I

2:57:17mean this is this is not to say you have

2:57:19to do this of course I mean this is to

2:57:21share with you what the needs of the

2:57:23departments are and again some of these

2:57:25are just based on expansion and growth.

2:57:27We'll let Matt talk to that in a second.

2:57:29Cindy will talk to that a little bit.

2:57:31You know in the case of the fire

2:57:32department it's the model the case of

2:57:35the police department, it's enhancing

2:57:36the level of service. So certainly these

2:57:39are decisions that could be made. This

2:57:40all doesn't have to happen in four

2:57:42years, you know, but to your point, you

2:57:44know, we are we are approaching to some

2:57:47extent in state. I think there's a

2:57:48little bit more in common with that. We

2:57:50gave you, I think, a lot of information

2:57:52about redevelopment and about, you know,

2:57:54where we are in that terms that if you

2:57:55haven't had a chance to read, I would

2:57:57strongly encourage you to do that. Both

2:57:59Michelle and Tiffany have done a lot of

2:58:02a lot of work, you know, put that

2:58:04together for you. So, you know, with

2:58:06these positions and again to your point,

2:58:08it's it's not just positions, right? It

2:58:10is the benefits, it is the retirement.

2:58:12In some places, it's where are we going

2:58:14to put these people? Um because, you

2:58:16know, we are we are cramming into every

2:58:18space that that we know of, you know,

2:58:20and again to the the point earlier about

2:58:22facilities. I mean, we are grabbing

2:58:24space. You've seen that at town hall.

2:58:26We've done that at the connector

2:58:28building. We've just done that with the

2:58:30PSMS building. We're certainly making

2:58:33those efforts, but in some of these

2:58:34cases, they have a place to sit.

2:58:36>> Yeah, I mean to say I I 100% agree with

2:58:39you,

2:58:41but I also

2:58:43like Kerry just now is adding only 13

2:58:46positions after like several several

2:58:48years. I don't know how much their staff

2:58:49is. I don't want to even compare with

2:58:51that. But

2:58:53nice to have, must have.

2:58:56>> Okay.

2:58:56>> Okay. And when these kind of requests

2:58:59are coming

2:59:01everyone the council you know I can

2:59:03vouch like public safety is top of the

2:59:06list

2:59:07>> but said that nice to have is a

2:59:12different bucket and must have and that

2:59:14is where you guys have to make a very

2:59:16thorough decision

2:59:18with what is needed what is not because

2:59:20I'll give you one example you use the

2:59:22data of how by the based on the

2:59:24population you know you need these many

2:59:26people But the crime rate in Morrisville

2:59:28is so less. It's the same thing. It's

2:59:30not in Durham. I can understand Durham.

2:59:33You need more with the population and

2:59:35all those things. But our crime rates

2:59:37are very very less. So I don't know why

2:59:39you guys use that indicator like with

2:59:41that amount of police based on that.

2:59:43>> Well, I think without getting too far

2:59:45into the weeds comparing us to similarly

2:59:48situated communities. We realize we're

2:59:50not we

2:59:53looking at similarly situated

2:59:55communities.

2:59:57Correct me if I'm wrong, Chief Roser,

2:59:58but it's more so the proximity to these

3:00:01larger communities

3:00:03um

3:00:04that requires the amount of police,

3:00:07>> right? I I think what we're looking at

3:00:09is is you have to look at philosophy,

3:00:11right? So, I've said all along my

3:00:13philosophy is proactive policing and

3:00:14community policing. Those two have to

3:00:16marry up together. I think you are

3:00:18correct. We are very fortunate what our

3:00:19crime rate is. But to maintain that, it

3:00:22takes that proactive piece because we

3:00:23are surrounded by two larger

3:00:25municipalities and we see that crime

3:00:28bleeding over into our community um at

3:00:32times and I think to to maintain that

3:00:34you need that proactive piece is what I

3:00:37was saying there. That's why I

3:00:38referenced those two municipalities

3:00:40because we are unique. If we were 35,000

3:00:42and we were sitting in a different

3:00:44location, I don't think you see the same

3:00:47need as we do being surrounded by two

3:00:50larger municipalities the way we are

3:00:51now.

3:00:52>> Well, but also no matter what I like I

3:00:55I'm very concerned frankly that we have

3:00:57a situation sometimes where there's one

3:00:59patrol officer on duty for all more. So

3:01:01like I'm I'm really concerned about that

3:01:03and you know like so the seven patrol

3:01:06officers to make it so that we can field

3:01:11a complete shift. I mean to me like

3:01:15that's just table stakes. We we just

3:01:17should have that. I mean the like the

3:01:19additional SRO even the traffic safety

3:01:21officer you know to Satisha's earlier

3:01:24point you know nice to have versus you

3:01:27know

3:01:29essential but I mean the patrol officers

3:01:34I mean we need what we need

3:01:36>> and I don't want you to go home tonight

3:01:38thinking we're in a really bad position

3:01:40because I do have mutual aid partners.

3:01:42I'm giving you what can happen and does

3:01:43happen at times here in the town that

3:01:46we're trying to now prevent by adding

3:01:48those patrol officers. And I would maybe

3:01:51back up to the SRO if I could just for a

3:01:53minute. That second SRO is really needed

3:01:55because the fact that high school is so

3:01:57big, it's almost like a small

3:01:58municipality in itself. So having one

3:02:01officer in there is extremely dangerous

3:02:03for that officer and and not as safe for

3:02:06the kids that are going to be there as

3:02:07it would be to have two to make sure

3:02:09we're covering that effectively.

3:02:22I'm very concerned about all these

3:02:24knowing that we are new

3:02:33to talk about service levels as a

3:02:35council and what final state is

3:02:40these

3:02:41We all sound important.

3:02:51We can't just keep saying yes because

3:02:56>> we can't just keep saying no.

3:02:59>> I we have said yes a lot. We have always

3:03:03positions

3:03:05but

3:03:12>> so many

3:03:25have

3:03:27>> typically has two for high school

3:03:30as

3:03:31in other communities when they're that

3:03:34full size school.

3:03:36I'm going to take a step back um because

3:03:38again today is not about a justification

3:03:41for the individual positions and I hear

3:03:43you Johnson. I mean that this is not to

3:03:46suggest we can do this. This is an

3:03:48awareness to let you understand what the

3:03:50acts are that are out there and I 100%

3:03:52agree about service. Clearly you can see

3:03:55that in a number of these different um

3:03:58categories. So, um,

3:04:02[laughter]

3:04:03>> I just got

3:04:04>> I know, I know, I know, I know. All

3:04:06right, I'll flip back.

3:04:08>> We're going back. Bear with us. There we

3:04:10go. So, um, I would say then we go

3:04:15around um, next we would let Matt

3:04:17briefly talk about what the positions he

3:04:20has, which is about seven and a half,

3:04:21and then we'll go to Cindy briefly, and

3:04:24then I'll wrap up the small ones and we

3:04:25can answer any questions you may have.

3:04:28>> So,

3:04:29works uh from a high level. A lot of

3:04:31this is to do with um expansion of our

3:04:34infrastructure. Um again we aren't

3:04:36growing rapidly but we are bringing on a

3:04:38lot of uh exciting things. Town center

3:04:41uh C4 community center field assets. Um

3:04:45and those are the big things related to

3:04:47the the grounds and facilities uh

3:04:50technicians that we have there. Then

3:04:52looking at our streets we have a lot of

3:04:53stuff that we are contracting out right

3:04:55now just because we have three streets

3:04:57technicians.

3:04:58and we can get to the point where we can

3:05:01add a few more street technicians. We'll

3:05:02be able to get to two official crews and

3:05:05uh or one large crew that can help us

3:05:07handle more larger scale things in

3:05:09house. Again, trying to get off of so

3:05:11many contracting services. Um and then a

3:05:15few pieces analyst roles um asset

3:05:18operations support analyst. I think this

3:05:20is where I really wanted to start

3:05:21driving more into kind of what Brandon

3:05:25was talking about with our work order

3:05:27system updates. uh specifically on fleet

3:05:30it's I want to get to where we are more

3:05:32proactive and predictive in our in how

3:05:35we're looking at fleet but also looking

3:05:36at similarly in our how we're managing

3:05:39our vertical assets our facilities uh

3:05:42getting a work building out our existing

3:05:43work order system so it can better help

3:05:46us guide more predictive

3:05:49proactive replacements of our large

3:05:51building systems or building assets so

3:05:52we can lower our maintenance costs uh

3:05:55and then a sustainability specialist and

3:05:57analyst Um, you know, our stability

3:05:59group is one person right now plus a

3:06:02halftime return and Kimberly is doing

3:06:05amazing things. Uh, especially if you

3:06:08look from an ROI from her salary to what

3:06:10she's bringing in capable of doing. I'd

3:06:12say she is quite maxed out at this

3:06:14point. Um, so we want to continue to

3:06:17expand sustainability. I think there's a

3:06:19opportunity bringing analysts in to help

3:06:21support her role with looking at some of

3:06:23the data side of things. but then also

3:06:25doing some smaller sustainability

3:06:27project management things. So that's

3:06:30kind of

3:06:37>> all right. Um [clears throat] our first

3:06:39one is the marketing specialist to

3:06:41enhance the capacity and communication.

3:06:43As you know, we have one person that's

3:06:45doing all things marketing. Um again

3:06:48doing a standup job just like Kimberly

3:06:50is. Um however, you know, she's at

3:06:53capacity. Um, we continue to add

3:06:55programs upon programs upon programs and

3:06:58Katie is that person that's doing all

3:07:00the marketing. So, having another person

3:07:02to focus on whether it's the web pages

3:07:04or just social media in general um would

3:07:07help us. Uh, the 20-hour fitness

3:07:10specialist to expand class capacity at

3:07:12MFC. As you all know, we are at

3:07:15capacity. However, we do continue to

3:07:19find pockets to program. Um the staff

3:07:21does a good job of moving things around.

3:07:24So having a 20our person just to help

3:07:27offset managing the different

3:07:30instructors and things like that would

3:07:32be huge for us.

3:07:35to interrupt. Is it fair to say that may

3:07:37also support if there's the ability to

3:07:39expand at the senior center for you know

3:07:42offering some additional programs there

3:07:44that might only now be offered at MAFC

3:07:46is a little more capacity in that

3:07:48>> which staff are looking at that right

3:07:50now to expand those at um MSC. So, the

3:07:5320our camp director, this is new. Um, we

3:07:57since I've been here, and I it's uh two

3:08:00two and a half years now. Um, I was

3:08:02surprised that we didn't have a um a

3:08:05camp director, which is very common in

3:08:08parks and recreation when you're leading

3:08:09camps of our size. Um, our full-time

3:08:12staff have stepped into that capacity.

3:08:14Um, and it's challenging at times,

3:08:16especially when we need people to drive

3:08:18and things like that. We we have been

3:08:20challenged this summer immensely. We've

3:08:22been staff with only one full-time staff

3:08:24person in that facility for for staffing

3:08:26reasons. He's done a great job, but

3:08:29having a camp director that understands

3:08:31the whole facet of the the camp and the

3:08:34logistics of running the camps would be

3:08:36huge. Um, again, that's something that I

3:08:39walked into that we didn't have. So, I

3:08:41feel like we do need that. Um, the

3:08:44recreation specialist for inclusion. Um,

3:08:46again, we're one of um a few departments

3:08:50that do not have an occlusion specialist

3:08:52meeting the demands of the um special

3:08:54needs and things of that nature. Um, we

3:08:58each summer uh specifically in the

3:09:00summer, we do have um challenges with,

3:09:04you know, parents not telling us that

3:09:06they that there are special needs with

3:09:08their kids. So, we're we're trying to

3:09:10figure these things out. So having

3:09:11somebody that's trained and understand

3:09:14that how to uh manage those special

3:09:17needs in today's society, I don't know,

3:09:20I think some of you all may know we

3:09:22added a century tent at Smoresville was

3:09:26um highly acceptable. Um just

3:09:31provided a different outlet for those

3:09:33who may not be able to be in a an

3:09:36environment like that. That two of our

3:09:37staff did that. they had gone to an

3:09:39inclusion workshop and did this on their

3:09:42own. They're not trained in this

3:09:43category. So, having somebody trained

3:09:45to, you know, provide those um the the

3:09:49training, you know, on how to deal with

3:09:52kids and adults uh would be beneficial.

3:09:55Um the facility aid to additional park

3:09:59coverage beyond the existing existing

3:10:01facility aid. As you all know, we have a

3:10:0330hour parks facility aid and he goes

3:10:06out to the different special events as

3:10:09well as manages just going around to the

3:10:13different facilities i.e. Church Street

3:10:15Park, Cedar, Cedarport District Park,

3:10:18making sure that the um renters are

3:10:21utilizing the space as they need to be

3:10:23using using it. Um Shandandy and I work

3:10:26together on the special event permit

3:10:28process and we have a lot of special

3:10:31events going on in our facilities. So

3:10:34Charles is his name. He goes out and

3:10:36just make sure that things They're not

3:10:38driving on the field. They're using the

3:10:39the facilities appropriately. Um he's

3:10:42only 30 hours. So even adding 10 hours

3:10:45to his time would not be able to cover

3:10:48the amount of of special event and just

3:10:51our ongoing programs. It would it

3:10:53wouldn't be able to cover it. So just an

3:10:55expansion on that. Um the activity host

3:10:57to provide assistance to rentals and

3:10:59programming as needed. This is primarily

3:11:01for um

3:11:04uh town center. Um we're going to be

3:11:07doing some, you know, popups and things

3:11:09like that. We're going to be at capacity

3:11:11when it comes to full-time staff. So,

3:11:13having that 20our person that could go

3:11:15and do a popup program for us and to

3:11:18oversee any rentals that may or may that

3:11:21may be occurring at Town Center would be

3:11:23also beneficial. And then as we think

3:11:26about our expansion with our um a

3:11:29potential community center and also

3:11:33trying to get space at other locations

3:11:36for us to grow having that additional

3:11:39athletic specialist to expand the

3:11:41programming um is going to be crucial.

3:11:44Thank you. So again service level I mean

3:11:46a lot of that is service level a lot you

3:11:48know there are some some incoming

3:11:50facilities um we expect you know park at

3:11:53some point we

3:11:55We've got the weight tech park and that

3:11:57doesn't require a position but it

3:11:59requires somebody to help and to check

3:12:01that you know to the facility a for the

3:12:03longest time we really didn't have a

3:12:05presence in the parks unless somebody

3:12:08doing something else there. So this at

3:12:09least gives us that somebody's in the

3:12:12park in a Morrisville vehicle in a

3:12:14Morrisville uniform that just reminds

3:12:16folks that yeah we are paying attention

3:12:19make sure that you know there's a party

3:12:20using a a shelter and it needed to be

3:12:22reserved it was reserved or if there's

3:12:24two people trying to use it they can

3:12:26sort I all sorts of those sort of things

3:12:28again that's proactive it is level of

3:12:30service it's sort of protecting our

3:12:32interests and our assets a little bit

3:12:34>> and I'd love if we could do more popups

3:12:37and stuff that be

3:12:39over the recreation month when those pop

3:12:41ups every Tuesday, we can sort of make

3:12:44that more of a habit.

3:12:45>> It takes staff, right?

3:12:47>> You saw you see how much staff it takes.

3:12:49Yes.

3:12:49>> Um in regards to the inclusion stuff, um

3:12:52Apex has at least one person, maybe a

3:12:55department, they do a newsletter and

3:12:57they're leaning into inclusion and

3:12:59stuff. So when I have more residents

3:13:01asking me about that, um I point them to

3:13:03our parks and rack, but really I point

3:13:05them to that newsletter.

3:13:06that newsletter because Apex is doing a

3:13:09nice work over there, but it's it'd be

3:13:11nice to be able to address some of those

3:13:13needs here in Morrisil for our Morris.

3:13:18>> So Cindy, let me ask you a question. You

3:13:20always talk about cost recovery. So of

3:13:23each of the things, how much cost

3:13:24recovery are we

3:13:26>> of each of these?

3:13:28>> Yeah.

3:13:29>> So

3:13:30with the camp Well, I'd have to go

3:13:32>> especially for the camp because your

3:13:34camp director, you know, specific to the

3:13:36kids who pay some amount and do that. So

3:13:40why should a taxpayer

3:13:43pay and a full-time employee for

3:13:46something that is specific to that?

3:13:49>> So with camp specifically, if you

3:13:51recall, we weren't uh we did not

3:13:53increase camp fees a few years ago. Uh

3:13:57we wanted to keep that cost down. So

3:13:59that cost recovery is going to be lower

3:14:01or we are subsidizing in that area. And

3:14:04also, I mean, taxes cover things that

3:14:07people don't use. Taxes cover public

3:14:10schools, even for people that don't have

3:14:11children. Taxes cover

3:14:14>> I mean, they cover all kinds of things

3:14:16for people that don't use that service.

3:14:18>> No, I get that. I'm not I'm not even

3:14:20questioning that because Fox and Rex has

3:14:23been pretty good in showing us the

3:14:24models of how much recovery and all

3:14:27those kind of things. So, wanted to know

3:14:30how these all fit into it because we

3:14:33just a profit nonprofit $30,000 or 40

3:14:37$50,000 was the gap. So we are again

3:14:41adding every employee

3:14:45there's a lot of thing that goes along

3:14:47with it and I am dead scared and

3:14:51actually I'll be honest in saying that

3:14:53it's nothing

3:14:55personal but it is

3:14:58show me show me the magic how to get to

3:15:01those uh tax numbers you know that's

3:15:03that's where

3:15:05>> again some of that is in in programming

3:15:07fees some of that is and you know what

3:15:09are we recovering resident versus

3:15:11non-resident there options to increase

3:15:13cost recovery if that's the decision of

3:15:15council that's that's not hard to do um

3:15:18you know is there a leveling there of

3:15:21interest potentially because you know if

3:15:23we're at if we are at market we're

3:15:25likely to continue to have people use

3:15:27the programs if we go above market we

3:15:29could lose people it's a little bit of a

3:15:31fine line but the cost recovery is is we

3:15:33can do we can attempt to

3:15:36>> I'm just using cost as just as small

3:15:38justification like not everything is

3:15:42like is a cost recovery

3:15:44but

3:15:46like a cam director just picking on that

3:15:48like you know it's nice to have good to

3:15:51have kind of a thing and

3:15:55the overhead charges of an FD is so much

3:15:58and I just don't want any reduction in

3:16:04future state when we are capped out you

3:16:07know when I came it was 115 like people

3:16:11now I think we have 200 plus and

3:16:15it's it is growing uh but at what level

3:16:18is an acceptable

3:16:22thing because the population is not

3:16:24growing um and you know our area is not

3:16:28growing and we are pumping more and more

3:16:31into it and what what is that number you

3:16:35know is is more important to with the

3:16:37camp director specifically like I mean

3:16:40we talk about that as like we add

3:16:42something every summer but most of the

3:16:45schools in Morsville are year round so

3:16:48that means that there's a population

3:16:51that we're not tapping for camps because

3:16:53they're not off in the summer they're

3:16:55off every three weeks if we could run

3:16:56camps year round because we had a person

3:16:59to do that I mean that's an example I

3:17:02don't think parks and rec should

3:17:03necessarily be a 100% recovery

3:17:06operation. But but if you want to talk

3:17:08about cost recovery, like being able to

3:17:11run year round camps instead of running

3:17:13six week camps in the summer, I mean

3:17:15that seems to me to be programming that

3:17:18would help us recover a lot of cost. I

3:17:22will say um CFCC in general was at 62%

3:17:25cost recovery this past year which was

3:17:27our highest um area which is pretty good

3:17:31considering the programming that we've

3:17:33got going on over there which includes

3:17:34the camps which we are subsidizing a

3:17:37little bit. So they're still at 62% cost

3:17:39recovery. I to me it's more important

3:17:42that that parks and services be

3:17:45affordable for families than that they

3:17:47be at 100% cost recovery. That's just me

3:17:50obviously. And I think you know when we

3:17:52went through the cost recovery model you

3:17:54know one of the things that we did say

3:17:56we were going to do is we were going to

3:17:58cover direct cost and that's what we

3:18:01have been doing. we haven't put in those

3:18:03indirect costs. When you when you start

3:18:04putting in those indirect costs, you

3:18:06know, if you're if you're requiring us

3:18:09to, and I don't think you are, I'm not

3:18:11saying that because it sounds like we

3:18:12want to keep costs down, but if you

3:18:14start looking at those indirect costs

3:18:15and trying to figure out what it what it

3:18:18literally costs to run a camp, our fees

3:18:21are going to be astronomical. They're

3:18:23they're going to be way up there. So, I

3:18:25think where we are, we're we're at a

3:18:27pretty good medium right now. um in

3:18:30comparison to our neighbors as you know

3:18:32as it as it relates to um camp camps in

3:18:35general. uh satish the other uh piece on

3:18:38there um the fitness specialist those

3:18:41are going to be cost recovery because

3:18:43those are going to probably be um paid

3:18:45programs

3:18:46>> the fitness I would say even add three

3:18:48more you know because that's I have

3:18:50heard so much good about it and it's

3:18:52exactly it's a cost it's not I'm not

3:18:56>> it's nothing personal about any of the

3:18:58things at all you know for me it is

3:19:00about you know

3:19:03>> the future and that's that's my day job

3:19:06is you know strategic look at five six

3:19:08years from now

3:19:10>> and if you're just adding the tax should

3:19:12also basically help and what is the

3:19:16trajectory is my

3:19:19>> extra lunch as a council try to share

3:19:21[snorts] our values and where we want

3:19:23cost recovery and how much is important

3:19:25things like that so I think that's going

3:19:27to be a good opportunity too like that

3:19:29would be a good example the camp

3:19:30director might lead us to up the cost a

3:19:33little bit um just recover a little bit

3:19:36more of that.

3:19:37>> So, good conversations to come as well.

3:19:40>> Okay. I don't have the time. I haven't

3:19:42had the opportunity to comment. Um

3:19:45Randy, when you started this section,

3:19:47you said you asked staff to come up with

3:19:51their and this is just four years. It's

3:19:53not five years, it's four years to come

3:19:56up with their future staffing

3:19:58projections. And you mentioned how you

3:20:01said something about I thought I heard

3:20:03the future community center. What what

3:20:07other criteria did you give them?

3:20:09Because the I don't see a future

3:20:11community center happening in these

3:20:15>> may not and you can see there wasn't

3:20:17anything specific to that. I think both

3:20:19Matt and Cindy made general reference to

3:20:21additional facilities. So if those

3:20:23facilities don't come online that could

3:20:25change the window certainly for

3:20:26additional positions. Other than that,

3:20:28it was really no other specific

3:20:30conditions beyond what we think we know

3:20:33is coming. And so that was, you know,

3:20:35the way tech park we expect to open.

3:20:37Again, that's not position resources to

3:20:40that. It's in the the total of the

3:20:42bigger picture. So no other real

3:20:44guidance outside of that.

3:20:46>> Okay. Because um I will give you my you

3:20:49know, I'm having a heartburn over this

3:20:51too because you're in four years you

3:20:53want to increase um staffing by 20%.

3:20:58And I that is not sustainable. Um I

3:21:01don't even know what that equates to

3:21:03dollar. You do have dollars on here.

3:21:05Sorry. You do have dollars. Um so I'm

3:21:09concerned about that because our

3:21:11population is not growing that fast. Our

3:21:13population is slow down. Our revenues

3:21:15are not growing that fast. So um and I

3:21:19think this does all get back to what

3:21:21level of service um are we willing to

3:21:25fun and Not only are we the people in

3:21:29this room, but is the public

3:21:33has the appetite to find. And so that is

3:21:36a really big question that I is going to

3:21:40be hard to answer and get really good

3:21:43data on to answer that question. But

3:21:45that's going to be critical moving

3:21:46forward. And I would also say moving

3:21:48forward in this next budget year, I I

3:21:52appreciate all the explanation here, but

3:21:54there needs to be real justific

3:21:57about what positions are going to be

3:22:00needed in FY28 and near their FY28 and

3:22:03their FY28 and their FY28 included as

3:22:07well. Um and if there is um revenue

3:22:10opportunities

3:22:12um that needs to be included and I get

3:22:15[clears throat] it police, fire, public

3:22:16works, there's no revenue opportunity. I

3:22:19I understand that and there that's just

3:22:21way that is but there those are

3:22:24critically important as well. But um

3:22:27anyhow the justification is going to be

3:22:30um important and and I will tell you

3:22:32when I looked at and you pres you

3:22:34provided some of these numbers back in

3:22:36the spring too when I saw that chart it

3:22:39gave me incredible heartburn incred and

3:22:42it still gives me great heartburn and

3:22:44even adding 20 positions that's like 8%

3:22:48of our staffing and that we're

3:22:51increasing and again our population is

3:22:53not growing that fast. revenue has not

3:22:55grown that much. So, um you know, I get

3:22:59a hard decision still to come. You know,

3:23:01this year was hard. Um hard decision

3:23:04still to come, but I I I think there

3:23:07there needs to be real um

3:23:11real thoughtful conversation about what

3:23:14we do moving forward and at what level.

3:23:17>> 100%. I agree with that fully. So again,

3:23:20this is this is not to suggest that I

3:23:23going to ask you for 20 positions in 28.

3:23:26This is more of an awareness of this is

3:23:28if the department heads could do what

3:23:30they felt they need to do to match sort

3:23:33of the vision and strategic plan and

3:23:35what they anticipate coming. So no don't

3:23:37anticipate that we bring you 20

3:23:39positions in 28 and absolutely there's

3:23:43so much more justice. This is this is

3:23:44just a quick what one

3:23:47>> but Brandon you say 20 positions. Yeah.

3:23:50FY28 right here. That is but that's not

3:23:53request. That is just summarizing what

3:23:55is there for awareness. [snorts] That is

3:23:57not this is this is in no way none of

3:24:00this is a budget request. I don't know

3:24:02what to request because I don't have the

3:24:04context yet or even where we are in

3:24:06terms of revenues and other pieces. This

3:24:08is just to make you aware of what what

3:24:11it could look like if the staff were to

3:24:14do what they feel they need to do to

3:24:16meet the vision and provide the level of

3:24:18service that we've done so far.

3:24:20understanding that I think to to your

3:24:22point this really highlights that level

3:24:25of service is going to be a question as

3:24:27we move forward

3:24:28>> and I thought this year the budget in

3:24:30the budget documentation I [snorts]

3:24:33thought that it was it was really

3:24:35helpful to have that language up front

3:24:38that like we're we are requesting police

3:24:41officers for an impact team and this is

3:24:44what they would do. I mean, I used that

3:24:46language over and over again. And I

3:24:48mean, honestly, what I heard from people

3:24:51was, "Oh, yeah. Well, the police, you

3:24:54know, that's I mean, people understand

3:24:56that we need police officers." I don't I

3:25:00think that to have I think we're going

3:25:01to have to have the justification for

3:25:04everything that we want to add to hand,

3:25:08you know. Yeah. I think that that was

3:25:10really helpful last year and I I would

3:25:12really like to keep that as a you know

3:25:14as just the gold standard of like give

3:25:17me the justification for everything that

3:25:21we're trying to add because it's you

3:25:23know I mean I think it's fair people are

3:25:25saying you know I'm paying four bucks

3:25:27for a gallon of gas. Do I really need

3:25:29this? And yeah, I mean, it's good to

3:25:33have the language and the, you know, the

3:25:36what the what's in it for me on

3:25:39everything.

3:25:40>> And as Liz said, um, including the

3:25:42revenue, like last budget or the budget

3:25:45we're in right now, you're really good

3:25:46about showing us the offsets and how

3:25:48there's maybe 10 positions, but we're

3:25:50only paying for a certain amount of

3:25:52them. Let's not be frightened by the

3:25:54number of positions because even though

3:25:56those are recurring into the future, if

3:25:58we have revenue offsets, it makes a

3:26:00little bit more powerful. And anything

3:26:02that we can use to explain to our

3:26:03residents how this benefits them and

3:26:06we're doing it efficiently and

3:26:07effectively. That's the important thing.

3:26:09Efficient and effective delivery of

3:26:11services. People will understand

3:26:15>> makes their lives better.

3:26:16>> I don't think people will understand.

3:26:20>> No. I think that there's real

3:26:23sensitivity

3:26:24to [snorts] the taxes and level of

3:26:27service and people don't understand

3:26:30>> the level of service cost. So it's not a

3:26:34matter of hey we're going to justify

3:26:36this. It's a matter of what do you want

3:26:39as your level of service? Then we align

3:26:43staffing and supportive cost

3:26:47that level of service.

3:26:50We're in a state

3:26:56level.

3:26:59In this retreat, we're going to talk

3:27:02about

3:27:04and how we engage our public validate

3:27:07some of our ass

3:27:29I would like to know. So

3:27:32I just challenge a lot of ass

3:27:45about communicating is correct.

3:27:48I think it's great and we first need to

3:27:51understand the wants of our public.

3:28:03>> Yeah, there's going to be the back and

3:28:04forth. People like us like have

3:28:08something to react to. So, we're going

3:28:10to initiate and see how they react to

3:28:13reinitiate. I hope we'll talk about that

3:28:15later.

3:28:19very quickly just to wrap up finance.

3:28:22We've already talked about the grant

3:28:23specialist, human resources. This would

3:28:25be a specialist to help us with internal

3:28:28training, the implementation of a

3:28:30leadership academy and other things

3:28:32within the department. Uh planning the

3:28:35request is for a transportation planner

3:28:38uh to add just to that workload. You

3:28:39know, we we consistently come before you

3:28:41with any variety of things that are

3:28:43going on. a lot of work doing Philip's

3:28:46involved with with you know campo and

3:28:49with smart shuttle and with projects and

3:28:52other things. So that would be the

3:28:54request there and I think that's

3:28:56>> just

3:28:59mention that one and then I think

3:29:00important to note is that three of our

3:29:02departments don't have requests right

3:29:04now. Um so communications and just did a

3:29:07reorg again. Thank you to Aaron for

3:29:08that. That really say last year or the

3:29:11current year a request for a position

3:29:14and then inspections

3:29:16has not made a request after looking at

3:29:17workload and what they're doing and how

3:29:19they're looking at that. And then we

3:29:21also have Mark. Thank you Mark. I was

3:29:26engineering who again has a you know

3:29:28sort of three divisions but right now

3:29:30they're they're managing that. Um you

3:29:33know capital projects is heavy right now

3:29:35but again that's going to flow of it

3:29:38over time. So no request right now from

3:29:40them. So these positions I I can't tell

3:29:44you today that this takes us to complete

3:29:46build out but I would tell you this

3:29:48takes us pretty close. Um you know again

3:29:51and those decisions beyond this are

3:29:54going to again be about level of service

3:29:56be about what do you want to offer to

3:29:58the community? What do we want to ask

3:30:00the community to pay for? Um so I I

3:30:03can't tell you today that 50 is it. you

3:30:05know, if you magically funded 50, you're

3:30:06done. That's not it. But again, I don't

3:30:09see another fishy behind this either.

3:30:12Um, as we as we move to build out and

3:30:14again, it's going to be decisions. You

3:30:15know, do we do we have to have position

3:30:18X? No, don't have to have it. But what

3:30:21do you not want to do necessarily or

3:30:23what do we not want to take on that's

3:30:25new going forward in any department?

3:30:30>> I don't hold any faith into those

3:30:32numbers. Back in the day, Back in the

3:30:35day, um it was we were anticipating that

3:30:41the population in Morrisville would

3:30:42reach 25,000 and that can never go

3:30:46higher than that. So, um here we are at

3:30:4935. Well, we're not going much higher

3:30:52than that. I don't I have no faith in

3:30:54any of that. So,

3:30:55>> spoiler alert, we're going much higher

3:30:57than that.

3:30:57>> Yes, I God knows what's going to happen

3:30:59here in coming decades. So, you know, it

3:31:03could be 00 people working here one day.

3:31:05>> But it would really it would really

3:31:07help. Oh, I'm sorry.

3:31:08>> No, I was just to say we only we only

3:31:10know what we know,

3:31:11>> right? We you make and maybe this is

3:31:14really important.

3:31:15>> We all make the best decisions we can

3:31:18with the information we have today. And

3:31:21we can't look back

3:31:24and judge because we didn't have the

3:31:27information we have today. So you can't

3:31:30look back and judge anybody anybody any

3:31:32anybody was here previously because they

3:31:35made the best decisions they could with

3:31:38the information they had at the time. So

3:31:40we are all doing what we can now who

3:31:43knows in 20 years. Sorry. Okay. No, I

3:31:46was just going to say that it would

3:31:47really help me also from a budgeting

3:31:49perspective to have a start, stop,

3:31:52continue, you know, like if I mean we

3:31:55want to start this, it's going to cost

3:31:57this much. We can stop this, you know,

3:32:01like what underperforming programs maybe

3:32:04um programs that are more expensive than

3:32:06we originally anticipated. And also I

3:32:09want to mention I don't think we should

3:32:10be afraid of sunk cost either. Like if

3:32:13we've poured money into that isn't

3:32:16working out,

3:32:18>> you know, let's let's not throw good

3:32:21money after bad and keep funding

3:32:24something that isn't working out, you

3:32:26know, and I mean that because I kind of

3:32:30feel like maybe not right this minute,

3:32:32but I do feel like we've kind of done

3:32:34that in the past where we've been like,

3:32:36you know, oh, we've we've already spent

3:32:38so much money on this,

3:32:40you know, I think we should just let

3:32:42that go.

3:32:46Yeah. Um, [clears throat]

3:32:48>> uh, hearing a lot of these

3:32:51conversations, going back to what I had

3:32:53mentioned in the, um, uh, our opening

3:32:57kind of, um,

3:32:58>> can you speak up just a little?

3:32:59>> Yes. Um,

3:33:01just I guess saying some of the values

3:33:03that I had put or I don't know if these

3:33:04are even values, but just maybe goals

3:33:06and objectives. um adding a couple

3:33:08protecting public workers, protecting

3:33:09public services, limiting tax impacts on

3:33:11residents, and limiting regressive fees

3:33:13on residents as well. It's a additional

3:33:15thing. Um I'm going to assume that all

3:33:19these positions are necessary. Um I have

3:33:22another little chart handout um that's

3:33:26the revenue and cost of theoretical

3:33:27development. And I'll just describe it

3:33:28and then I'll show it. Um it shows uh

3:33:31you know a continuum um from rural to

3:33:33dense with surplus on the rural side,

3:33:35dense on the surplus or uh surplus on

3:33:37the dense side and then subsidy in

3:33:39between. So the question that I have for

3:33:42us is where are we on this continuum?

3:33:47You know where where are we um in what

3:33:50ways are we are these conversations that

3:33:53we're having a function of where we are

3:33:56on this continuum? Um and as we approach

3:33:59buildout, where will we be on this

3:34:02continuum? Um,

3:34:05question 25 of our FAQ um was talking

3:34:08about the GIS uh criteria based mapping.

3:34:10Um, I do have some resources that get

3:34:12into this uh geospatial productivity

3:34:15analysis. I've shared um I do want to

3:34:18mention that we are this was discussed

3:34:21earlier. It's a short-term instate,

3:34:23right? Buildout is not the end all

3:34:26beall, right?

3:34:28>> Um But essentially, where are we to to

3:34:31get to your point about um you know,

3:34:33we're only we can only make decisions as

3:34:36good as the data that we have. Um so

3:34:38having data on uh where we are now and

3:34:41how can we make adjustments to put

3:34:43ourselves in a stronger position. Um

3:34:46that's ultimately where I would like us

3:34:48to um maybe go towards next. uh

3:34:52primarily because at least for me I

3:34:55don't want to nickel and dime staff

3:34:57before we do that type of analysis. Um

3:34:59and I believe that that geospatial um uh

3:35:03productivity analysis as well as some of

3:35:05this financial uh uh trend data

3:35:10uh would give us the data that we could

3:35:14then use to make these informed

3:35:15decisions moving forward from the uh

3:35:18certainly from the revenue side of

3:35:20things so that we can ensure that we

3:35:21have enough support the the resources

3:35:24that we need to support our community.

3:35:29>> I like a lot of that when you think

3:35:31about it almost like a business back in

3:35:33business school like the product life

3:35:35cycle like what is the town's life cycle

3:35:39like products get to a point where

3:35:40they're cash cow and they are generating

3:35:43funds so I don't think we're going to

3:35:45get there we're going to get to a stable

3:35:47point

3:35:48but you mentioned population that's what

3:35:51often key on and that's important for

3:35:53police um and our geographic area is

3:35:56important for fire but also our property

3:35:58tax levy that's really the important

3:36:01that's where the taxes come from they

3:36:03don't come from people they come from

3:36:04our property tax levy so that's to your

3:36:06point what is the most um beneficial to

3:36:10the town off the top of my head I think

3:36:12I remember it's like hotels or something

3:36:14like that we have a lot of so we're

3:36:16already benefiting from that unlike

3:36:18other towns but then maybe it's multif

3:36:21probably the least is maybe single

3:36:23family detached which I love. So what

3:36:26are we going to do with what's left?

3:36:28That's kind of the conversation that

3:36:29we're going to be in this afternoon.

3:36:30>> Yeah. And that's the big that's

3:36:32ultimately that's one piece of the big

3:36:35question because what are we going to do

3:36:37between now and that in state,

3:36:39>> right? But then how does how does the

3:36:43decisions that we make on uh what is it

3:36:46500 400 I can't remember the exact for

3:36:49um new development and redevelopment was

3:36:52it 400 acres

3:36:54>> that's left

3:37:02I'd really like to sit down with you and

3:37:05talk more about the information that

3:37:07you've provided because I read it all

3:37:09but I I am 100% sure that I didn't

3:37:12understand it all.

3:37:13>> So I would really like to get with you

3:37:15and and understand.

3:37:17>> I have a book you can read as well.

3:37:18>> Oh, good.

3:37:20So it's 940 acres combined. Um

3:37:25and I I think there's probably a

3:37:26discussion there in terms of like what

3:37:28was considered redevelopment because I

3:37:31think a lot of people think about that

3:37:32differently, but combined vacant and um

3:37:35redevelopment

3:37:37um 940 acres

3:37:39How many?

3:37:40>> 940.

3:37:41>> But that's redevelopment.

3:37:45>> That's redevelopment and new

3:37:46development.

3:37:46>> So, can you take all that just

3:37:49>> 565 acres of vacant land?

3:37:52>> Okay.

3:37:53>> And some like really challenging

3:37:55parcels,

3:37:56>> right? And it's 375

3:37:58of redevelopment is a lot of times um

3:38:01your single family homes that are in

3:38:03larger lots where you could see people

3:38:05combining redeveloping or single family

3:38:07homes that are sitting on commercially

3:38:09zoned property right now. Um we took a

3:38:12very conservative approach to

3:38:15redevelopment. We didn't look at like

3:38:16shopping centers being torn down and

3:38:18rebuilt and that type of redevelopment.

3:38:20We really just look at what seemed

3:38:24underutilized today.

3:38:27>> So Michelle I think that information is

3:38:30good but also in putting in perspective

3:38:33may 500 may look very big

3:38:36>> but

3:38:37church street if you take that itself

3:38:39will be 70 acres because on either side

3:38:42of the church street there are single

3:38:43single single you're adding all those

3:38:45things up. So what is the biggest

3:38:46parcel? I think the one next to uh

3:38:52uh not the spot is a 50 acre. So like

3:38:56that. What are the big chunks here?

3:38:57>> Yeah. And I have I can get you some of

3:39:00those numbers. I don't have the

3:39:00spreadsheet in front of me, but your big

3:39:02ones are 2D west, east, um and south.

3:39:08The Hamlet property, which is in review

3:39:10right now, the Louis Stevens property,

3:39:14um that you're talking about as well.

3:39:16And then we still have

3:39:17um some parcels left on the crib, a

3:39:19decent amount there, and some on trans

3:39:21there. So, those are your big ones that

3:39:23are left.

3:39:26>> I also like

3:39:27>> in town center.

3:39:28>> I'd also like to mention as well that um

3:39:33this uh sink street um resoning that

3:39:37probably going to be discussing in in

3:39:38the near future um right, will that help

3:39:42us or will that hurt us from a the

3:39:45revenue and the cost of services, right?

3:39:48And I don't know, I uh not been around

3:39:51for a lot of reasonzoning discussions.

3:39:53Um but I don't know, maybe someone else

3:39:56can include me in if that has been a

3:39:58piece of the discussion

3:40:01>> less so we also ask now for education

3:40:05impacts and things like that. So that

3:40:07would be an ask of the council to ask

3:40:09that to sort of take a look at that from

3:40:11a monetary pay payback ROI for

3:40:18>> because if it's not bringing in the

3:40:20revenue and we need the extra police and

3:40:22fire to support that, right, then that's

3:40:24it's just it's going to make us tighten

3:40:26the belt some more, right? And that's

3:40:30just a difficult position to be in. It

3:40:31will continually be a difficult position

3:40:34to be in if the hatchet is essentially

3:40:37just forcing us to tighten that even

3:40:39more when there's nothing to hold

3:40:40deeper. Right.

3:40:44>> Okay,

3:40:46that was a full morning. Um I think a

3:40:48good morning. I think a lot of good

3:40:50discussion. I think a lot of good

3:40:52hopefully answers. Um I think we've got

3:40:54some homework to do particularly around

3:40:56the the budget breakdown. We'll be

3:40:59adding some additional explanation of

3:41:01some of those categories. We'll be

3:41:03adding uh where we may have offset

3:41:07revenues and we'll get that back to you

3:41:08as soon as it's practical. Um, and then

3:41:11I think we had a good discussion around

3:41:12staffing from an standpoint. Not here's

3:41:15what we're asking for. We're a long long

3:41:17way from that, but just here's what our

3:41:20staff feels is important to be doing.

3:41:22Um, and again, primarily focused on

3:41:25maintaining and in some cases enhancing

3:41:27levels of service that we may or may not

3:41:30be able to do. So any final questions or

3:41:33comments from council before we break

3:41:34for lunch?

3:41:36>> That was a very good morning.

3:41:37>> It was a very good

3:41:40>> Well, again, thanks to, you know,

3:41:41particularly Micah and Byron, but also

3:41:44the folks sitting behind us on both

3:41:45sides for being here and being able to

3:41:48answer those questions. It's always

3:41:49good, I think, for you to hear from them

3:41:52versus just me passing through.

3:41:55So with that, lunches outside. So there

3:41:59are three options for lunch the clerk's

3:42:02uh office uh ordered for us. So there

3:42:05are three they're all box lunches. So

3:42:07three of them are Anna's veggie with

3:42:08hummus. One of which is a wrap. 14 are

3:42:11turkey and eight are homemade chicken

3:42:14salad and this soda and water and still

3:42:16juice out there as well.

3:42:18>> I know we have some folks with special

3:42:20needs. So if you would like one of the

3:42:23veggies if you'll hold off perhaps make

3:42:25sure that we get the folks in dietary

3:42:27restrictions first and then if there's

3:42:29something left that's great but you

3:42:31don't have the dietary restrictions

3:42:33consider the two

3:42:35>> and I think those three were only

3:42:36specific to the three that had those

3:42:38dietary restrictions

3:42:39>> and we're aiming to get 1230 123

3:42:47full recess

3:42:54our afternoon session at this time. I'd

3:42:56like to pass it to town manager Zma.

3:42:58>> Thank you, Mayor. Um, again, thank you

3:43:00for the morning. I think that was good

3:43:01conversation for us. I hope it was for

3:43:04you as well. You know, we have a couple

3:43:05things we will bring back to you and

3:43:07share some additional detail on. I'm

3:43:09glad we got through that conversation. I

3:43:11think that was helpful. And again, the

3:43:14the staffing is a reference for now and

3:43:16obviously that comes back later with

3:43:18looking similar but not the same and

3:43:21with some prioritization in that

3:43:23particular we work through the process

3:43:25over the next few months. So this

3:43:26afternoon I'm going to hand it off to

3:43:28Byron. We're going to talk a little bit

3:43:30about revenue revenue tools, what what

3:43:33early early

3:43:35projections might look like for FY28.

3:43:39Um and then You know, most of these

3:43:41revenue opportunities are aware of we

3:43:43want to share that with you as a group

3:43:45and just make you aware of those or

3:43:47remind you of those and then as you get

3:43:49comfortable with that [clears throat]

3:43:51we'll move into more of

3:43:54where we try to get out of your way and

3:43:56let you talk amongst yourselves. I'll

3:43:58try to help facilitate that as well.

3:44:00>> All right. Uh thank you all. Um

3:44:03obviously like I said before please feel

3:44:05free to just stop ask questions talk

3:44:07about anything that you all want to talk

3:44:09about. We're here to facilitate, but

3:44:11ultimately I want you guys to have the

3:44:12opportunity to talk amongst yourselves

3:44:13about anything associated with revenue

3:44:15and we'll be able to support and help

3:44:17with any of that. So the first slide I

3:44:21kind of want to talk about is just to

3:44:23talk about the authority that council

3:44:24has over revenues that we have in our

3:44:26general fund. And we're going to look at

3:44:28it in four different buckets. Some of

3:44:30these buckets do overlap, but at the end

3:44:32of the day, really the most important

3:44:34thing is what you have control over,

3:44:36what you don't have control over, and

3:44:38where you have influence maybe a little

3:44:40bit more indirectly instead of direct

3:44:42influence. So, first area I want to kind

3:44:44of talk about is that direct control.

3:44:46So, what do you directly control that

3:44:49ultimately changes revenue amounts,

3:44:51changes revenue types, um all those

3:44:53types of things. So, the first thing is

3:44:54property tax, the rate in particular.

3:44:56Um, council has the authority to set a

3:44:59property tax rate on an annual basis.

3:45:01Um, and and essentially all that means

3:45:03is that you can increase or decrease the

3:45:05tax rate as you see fit. Doesn't change

3:45:07the amount of assessed value that we

3:45:09have. It changes the actual rate and

3:45:11ultimately that is within your purview

3:45:13to be able to change on that annual

3:45:14basis to generate a certain amount of

3:45:17room tax, property tax that the town is

3:45:19able to bring in in the future. Um, you

3:45:21also have the ability to to uh change

3:45:23the vehicle decal fee. There is a max

3:45:25that you can set, but you can fluctuate

3:45:28that number if you so choose. Right now,

3:45:29it's set at $35, but you do have the

3:45:32ability to change that. 35 is the max.

3:45:35[clears throat] Um, other user fees,

3:45:37obviously, you all know you have the

3:45:38ability to uh create user fees, not just

3:45:42the solid waste and storm water uh

3:45:44program fees, but also other uh

3:45:46operational fees such as recreation

3:45:48fees, uh building inspection fees,

3:45:51things like that. [snorts] Um, and then

3:45:52lastly, go ahead. storm order. Uh we

3:45:55can't go above cost recovery though,

3:45:58right? So that's to where we are now.

3:46:00>> Correct. And and I do believe that there

3:46:02is like a a max. We're nowhere near that

3:46:04max. Um so

3:46:06>> go up with that.

3:46:08>> Yes, it it you within your authority to

3:46:11be able to increase that. Right now it's

3:46:12at $50 uh per ERU. You do have the

3:46:15ability to increase that.

3:46:16>> Okay. I'd be curious in the future what

3:46:18the max would be.

3:46:20>> Okay. I can get that. That's a

3:46:21restricted fund for only that use,

3:46:24right?

3:46:24>> Correct. It is restricted to storm

3:46:27water. Again, that changed when when you

3:46:29all elected to steps increase within the

3:46:33last four, three, four years, you know,

3:46:35that brought it to where the the storm

3:46:37water fee for the storm water was really

3:46:39self-sustaining. It was no longer

3:46:41receiving any funds from the general

3:46:42fund. You know, we had a very quick

3:46:44conversation

3:46:46about the idea of looking at what else

3:46:48might be attributed to that storm water.

3:46:51terms of percentage of salaries and

3:46:52things like that. That can still be

3:46:55looked at down the line. You know, you

3:46:56invest a little to see what you can earn

3:46:58from that. We don't think that's

3:46:59monumentally different. We might recover

3:47:01a few tens of thousands of dollars.

3:47:04We're not going to recover, you know, a

3:47:05million dollars to go back into the

3:47:07general fund, but that that is not

3:47:10that juice is probably not worth the

3:47:12sweets to make a change of fee for just

3:47:16a small amount. Probably

3:47:18>> probably not. But we would see some

3:47:21revenue savings in the general fund, but

3:47:24again, we could look at it again, but

3:47:26we're not expecting a huge impact,

3:47:28>> right?

3:47:31>> And so then lastly, in that direct

3:47:33control bucket, uh we do have

3:47:35sponsorship. So obviously you all have

3:47:37the ability to enter into sponsorship

3:47:39agreements. Um that's something that

3:47:41staff is currently working on in order

3:47:42to help identify what those programs

3:47:44[clears throat] would be or facilities

3:47:47objects would be that could generate

3:47:49some sponsorship dollars. And so that is

3:47:51within your perview to be able to work

3:47:52on that. Uh we'll drop down to the

3:47:56restricted and dedicated bucket here. Um

3:47:59those are really even though some of

3:48:01those funds might be unrestricted

3:48:03ultimately what you end up using it for

3:48:05might restrict it. So an example of that

3:48:07would be what we set aside for capital

3:48:10reserves and moving those funding that

3:48:12funding to the reserve funds that

3:48:14restricts that funding one for capital

3:48:16needs and two for whatever the

3:48:18appropriation that we've set aside that

3:48:20capital reserve for. So for instance,

3:48:23the um public safety apparatus fund um

3:48:27it's really set aside for that public

3:48:28safety need because you all have

3:48:30governed uh and created a policy

3:48:32associated with that particular funding

3:48:35source going into that fund and that

3:48:37fund being utilized for that particular

3:48:39purpose. Um also want to talk a little

3:48:41bit about POW bill. PAL bill is um a

3:48:44funding appropriation that we receive

3:48:45from the state and there's a calculation

3:48:47and formula [clears throat] associated

3:48:48with that but ultimately those funds are

3:48:51used for street needs uh both

3:48:53resurfacing reconstruction needs uh from

3:48:56a from a street level perspective. Um

3:48:59storm water fees we've kind of already

3:49:00talked about fines and forfeitures

3:49:02whenever we have sort of asset

3:49:04forfeitures in the police department

3:49:06those are uh still restricted for police

3:49:09needs. They can't just be used aspects

3:49:12that is a restriction. And then lastly,

3:49:14building inspection. I know that was

3:49:15mentioned earlier as well, but um that's

3:49:17revenue that is associated with being

3:49:19able to maintain the inspections

3:49:21department.

3:49:22>> I always like to mention that we don't

3:49:24get traffic ticket revenue from the

3:49:27police. Right.

3:49:29>> Uh correct. And I'll I'll let you either

3:49:32one of y'all jump in, but yeah, there is

3:49:34some restriction in terms of what that

3:49:35revenue could be used for and it has to

3:49:37be sent back to the state for school

3:49:38>> for school lot. talking. We're talking

3:49:41traffic. Are we talking court costs?

3:49:42Because

3:49:43>> traffic traffic tickets. People think

3:49:45that we give out tickets just to make

3:49:47money, but that's not how it works.

3:49:49>> Yeah. We don't receive any of those

3:49:50funds that I know of. There's a small

3:49:52small small percentage that goes into

3:49:54the retirement system towards funding

3:49:58retirements, I do believe, but none of

3:49:59that comes back to municipalities that

3:50:01I'm aware of. I think I think what

3:50:03you're talking about funds that's

3:50:04[clears throat] typically our drug

3:50:06forfeiture monies and things of that

3:50:07nature that are in a restricted fund.

3:50:09>> I I I heard that the traffic tickets

3:50:12money goes to the NC lottery or

3:50:15something. That's I don't know if that's

3:50:16true.

3:50:21Yeah, it might be that some

3:50:23traffic ticket money goes to

3:50:26>> on traffic tickets. Someone who's

3:50:29convicted of one, they pay two

3:50:32pots of money. Basically, one is court

3:50:34costs and the other is is a fine if it's

3:50:37assessed by the judge. Court costs go to

3:50:39the state administrative office of

3:50:40courts. Fines go from the court to the

3:50:44school system. The town gets no revenue

3:50:46from traffic tickets to the appoint

3:50:47mayor.

3:50:48>> Right. And ultimately, that's a big

3:50:49thing. We aren't giving.

3:50:50>> No, no, because that's I I'm I'm glad

3:50:53you know TJ brought it up because people

3:50:55say, "Oh, you guys are giving too too

3:50:57many tickets because you want money."

3:50:59>> That's a common perspective.

3:51:01>> That's That's not true.

3:51:03>> That's true.

3:51:08>> Okay. So, um I'm going to jump to the

3:51:10top right there. Uh what ultimately

3:51:12council has that they have the ability

3:51:14to influence. Um these are policy

3:51:16influences. Ultimately, these are

3:51:18indirect results. uh that change these

3:51:20revenue sources, but you all do play

3:51:22some part into that. So, for instance,

3:51:25grants, our ability to uh apply and

3:51:28receive grants, our ability to

3:51:30determine, you know, what ultimately

3:51:31gets categorized uh and factored into,

3:51:35you know, different types of

3:51:36aortionments. So, a good example of that

3:51:39is our Wake County reimbursement for

3:51:40fire. um and the ability for staff to go

3:51:44in identify what ultimately goes into

3:51:46that 13.5%

3:51:48uh to be reimbursed. There are some

3:51:49things that fire does that the county

3:51:51won't ultimately uh you know allow for

3:51:54reimbursement and things that they do.

3:51:56So we choose to you [laughter] know

3:51:59staff and fund our operations. Uh and

3:52:02part of that does go into this

3:52:03calculation. Um another example

3:52:05>> hotel tax revenue fall here

3:52:07>> do what? hotel tax.

3:52:09>> We don't quy it goes to the county.

3:52:11>> But don't we isn't there some kind of

3:52:13application process where we can get it

3:52:15back?

3:52:15>> We have to apply. That's what the hotel

3:52:17tax

3:52:25>> and carry to. So that is this box

3:52:27though, right? It it it is this box and

3:52:29and it's in this box indirectly because

3:52:31even though we don't receive occupancy

3:52:33tax, we do as a part of this county have

3:52:36the ability to apply to um the for the

3:52:40hotel and motel tax. An example of that

3:52:42would be how we got uh some funding for

3:52:44Church Street Lighting uh at the Cricut

3:52:46Field. And that $3 million or $2 million

3:52:50um ultimately is something that we were

3:52:51able to apply for and receive as part of

3:52:53a funding package that um uh the uh

3:52:57hospitality department in in Wake County

3:53:00was able to provide. Um also with Smart

3:53:04Shuttle, our ability to increase,

3:53:06decrease services, um add nodes, add

3:53:10stops. Um, you know, and I know we've

3:53:12talked about all of this, but ultimately

3:53:14that is something that affects our

3:53:15reimbursement and affects the amount of

3:53:17revenue that's coming into the town. Um,

3:53:19and then lastly, uh, just another

3:53:21discussion about reserves. Um, the

3:53:24change in policy, how much you set aside

3:53:26for reserves, determine whether or not,

3:53:28um, that funding, even if it is

3:53:30restricted, has the ability to be

3:53:32utilized for those particular

3:53:33restrictions. Any questions about any of

3:53:36the first three before we move on to the

3:53:37board? Okay. All right. And then lastly,

3:53:40what is completely outside of your

3:53:42control? Obviously, there are other

3:53:44external factors. Um, with PAL bill,

3:53:46there are state formulas associated with

3:53:48that with sales tax, utility tax, beer

3:53:50and wine. Also, those types of state um

3:53:53state aortionment factors that go into

3:53:55that. Simply because, you know, we see a

3:53:58large amount of sales within the

3:54:00community. Um, does not necessarily mean

3:54:03all those dollars just go back one to

3:54:05one because there is a portion of sales

3:54:06tax that is not for um uh

3:54:09municipalities, it's for the city or for

3:54:12the county. Um in addition to that, when

3:54:15it comes to property values and the

3:54:17appeals process, that also plays into uh

3:54:20how much abalorum tax, how much property

3:54:22tax we ultimately receive. But we don't

3:54:24necessarily have the ability to control

3:54:26the appeals process, nor do we have the

3:54:28ability to control what the county

3:54:30ultimately values uh for those

3:54:33particular properties. Um, you know, as

3:54:36as you all know, we do contract with the

3:54:38county to be able to uh provide us with

3:54:40tax administration, and that's something

3:54:42they do for all the municipalities in

3:54:44the area. And that is applied on a

3:54:46consistent basis throughout the county.

3:54:48However, we don't necessarily have the

3:54:49ability to determine that this property

3:54:51should be worth 10 million when the

3:54:53county says it's worth five, let's say.

3:54:55Um and then uh interest obviously is

3:54:58dictated by the way that the market

3:55:01works, the way that banks ultimately um

3:55:03decide interest and the type of deal

3:55:05that we have with Wells Fargo in

3:55:07particular and with uh Paragon, our

3:55:09money market account as well. Um the

3:55:11trust also, North Carolina Capital

3:55:13Management Trust, we keep a fair amount

3:55:15of money in there as well. We do receive

3:55:17interest from that. Um, however, you

3:55:20know, it is a little bit of a lagging

3:55:22indicator, but that's also dictated by

3:55:24market forces and interest rates. Um,

3:55:26and then just any other small factors

3:55:28that go into, uh, some of our other, I

3:55:31know I mentioned some of the other

3:55:32intergovernmental ones, but there are

3:55:34some other types, um, landfill fees that

3:55:37we get from Wake County, um, all those

3:55:39types of things that play into outside

3:55:41factors that ultimately you all don't

3:55:43control, but still revenue that we

3:55:44receive, uh, within the town.

3:55:48So any question about any of the four?

3:55:49Yes.

3:55:50>> Yeah. So um I'm going to make an

3:55:53analogy.

3:55:54>> Okay.

3:55:55>> But um I feel that

3:55:58property values maybe not as

3:56:01influenced via policy. Um that level I

3:56:04guess there's different levels of

3:56:05indirectness you could say. Um but the

3:56:08analogy that I'll make is uh the town is

3:56:10a garden. Uh we tend the soil, we water

3:56:12it, we create the bed. Um

3:56:15but the uh the way we get the flowers is

3:56:19to specify which range of seeds get

3:56:21planted where. Uh but we have indirect

3:56:24we have indirect control over uh how the

3:56:26flowers will present. Um but the quality

3:56:30of those flowers is dependent on the

3:56:32quality of the care indirectly. So if we

3:56:35decided to stop watering as a policy

3:56:37decision our flower bed that would

3:56:39affect the quality of the flowers that

3:56:41are that are coming up. Um, so if we

3:56:44decided to stop maintaining streets as a

3:56:46policy choice, um, is it accurate to say

3:56:48that property values would start to

3:56:50decline and thus the tax revenue? Is

3:56:52that a valid

3:56:55statement? Right. Question. Um, we could

3:56:59also decide to uh establish the zoning

3:57:02on a particular parcel next to a

3:57:03neighborhood as either a park or a

3:57:06landfill, right? It's a policy decision.

3:57:08would that not affect the property

3:57:10values of that um of that neighborhood?

3:57:15So, I don't know how it gets broken out.

3:57:17Obviously, um the actual value of the of

3:57:21the property and then the appeals

3:57:23process is outside of our control, but

3:57:25certainly we develop the conditions to

3:57:28um influence the property values.

3:57:31>> No, that's that's definitely a fair

3:57:33point and you're right. There are there

3:57:34are things that you all can do that help

3:57:36increase um you know increase or

3:57:38decrease property values, whether that's

3:57:40reszoning ability, whether that is the

3:57:43ability to uh maintain quality of life,

3:57:46um you know, in order to help drive uh

3:57:48you know, industry or drive um you know,

3:57:52residential uh you know, markets within

3:57:55the area. All of those things are, you

3:57:57know, indirectly within your control. Um

3:58:00and I I don't want to necessarily step

3:58:02on any of this conversation because I do

3:58:03want you all to be able to have this

3:58:04conversation, but you're you're

3:58:06absolutely right. there are other

3:58:07factors that play into this. Um, and

3:58:09those are things that I guess as you

3:58:11probably are going to talk through your

3:58:13budget philosophy that might factor into

3:58:15some of those discussions,

3:58:16>> right? And adding on to this, if we are

3:58:18in a position where you know, okay,

3:58:20well, we have to m stop maintaining our

3:58:22streets as much as we could just because

3:58:24we don't have the funds to do it, right?

3:58:26Would that influence the uh the quality

3:58:29of the neighborhoods in such a way that

3:58:31it reduces the property value such that

3:58:32it reduces our revenue such that it's

3:58:34kind of this vicious cycle where we're

3:58:37continuing to try and uh fund our

3:58:39community

3:58:41but like with that chart that I was

3:58:43showing in a in a you know in a down in

3:58:46a downward spiral. I don't want to say

3:58:47that we are in a downward spiral right

3:58:49but um certainly those are policy

3:58:51decisions that we would be making.

3:58:55>> Do you

3:58:56crime [clears throat] was rampant. No

3:58:58one would want to live here. No one

3:59:00would buy houses here. No one would be

3:59:01able to resell their house. All that

3:59:03would happen. So yeah, all that's I

3:59:06would also add to that. Um

3:59:10our location is really key to why our

3:59:14property values are the way they are.

3:59:16Our location is just

3:59:19so and it always has been and it always

3:59:21will be. We could call it marginal

3:59:23property value then on what we can

3:59:25influence

3:59:26>> but no 100%

3:59:29part of the picture. I I think most of

3:59:32the things that you said is correct and

3:59:34especially like let's take the roads we

3:59:37have money that we allocate for

3:59:40resurfacing and doing so [snorts] is it

3:59:44adequate is depends on how fast you want

3:59:47it but it is a balance of you're

3:59:51touching all the buckets is not like

3:59:53we're ignoring one or the two like

4:00:02I'll just quick um one, you know,

4:00:06Byron's got a note there that you know

4:00:08for direct control operate within legal

4:00:10and equity constraints. So you control

4:00:13the property tax rate with an asterisk

4:00:16because if the legislature comes through

4:00:18and decides they're going to limit how

4:00:20much you could raise property tax then

4:00:22your control lessons. Now again I don't

4:00:26know that that directly impacts us

4:00:28because I don't think they would put a

4:00:29limit that would impact what you might

4:00:30or might not do but again it's still a

4:00:33little less authority than you have

4:00:35today. And then sponsorship. Just a

4:00:37quick update. Um super is here this week

4:00:40coming up um to meet in person with some

4:00:44of the the larger potential sponsors to

4:00:47also be meeting with staff updates. But

4:00:49that's a good sign that we're moving

4:00:50towards perhaps our first larger

4:00:52sponsorship.

4:00:55What one question I think which I didn't

4:00:58see

4:01:00is your our

4:01:04uh PIL and those kind of things here. So

4:01:08I didn't see that bucket like for the

4:01:10apartments and or the houses we have a

4:01:13price that we set I think 3,400 or

4:01:16something right?

4:01:16>> Oh, I'm sorry. What's that

4:01:18>> for the PIL?

4:01:20>> It's 34 something.

4:01:21>> 34 something. photographing me as well.

4:01:24Um, so,

4:01:26so Michelle, that's one thing I wanted

4:01:29to see because the tap fee is called

4:01:32different different. It's called K calls

4:01:34impact fee and Holly Springs calls it

4:01:37tap fee, you know. So, I don't know what

4:01:39that encompasses, but it's 18,000 a

4:01:43door.

4:01:44So

4:01:46if someone could help us you know break

4:01:48it down what really that is because um

4:01:52there might be some opportunities in

4:01:54that area as to

4:01:57or at least understand the lay of how

4:01:59they are doing it.

4:02:00>> Okay.

4:02:02You're speaking specifically about those

4:02:04other municipalities how they're

4:02:06determining.

4:02:06>> So, so like other revenue stream I it's

4:02:09less revenue stream but you know like

4:02:11any new apartments 18,000 250 apartments

4:02:1518,000 is a good chunk of money compared

4:02:17to 3,400 that we charge. So those kind

4:02:21of things at least we know.

4:02:23>> So we have run some comparables. We do

4:02:25that almost every year. I don't have the

4:02:27data in front of me. Carrie is a little

4:02:30bit higher than that. they have been for

4:02:32some time, but we're pretty on par with

4:02:34a lot of the other jurisdictions in the

4:02:37area. And that's one of the ones that

4:02:38we're always watching as well because of

4:02:41how strong some of our lobbies are. Um,

4:02:44if we push too much, we're always

4:02:46fearful. But we're right around where

4:02:49most others are. Again, with Carrie

4:02:51being a little higher, some of our

4:02:53multifamily developments are coming in

4:02:55at close to a million dollars um a

4:02:58piece, more so.

4:03:012.0. I think those were the 900,000 or

4:03:05>> Yeah, I I get it. So, might be for our

4:03:08understanding when the tax rate for

4:03:10Holly Springs is 80,000 that would

4:03:12include the water and sewer because they

4:03:15service that we don't like we just do

4:03:19might be the P is part of the 80,000 or

4:03:22something like that. They package it a

4:03:24different way. The impact that does is

4:03:27packaged a different way and [snorts] we

4:03:28package it as just which is like parks.

4:03:31>> So are you you're talking about

4:03:33something in addition to park.

4:03:34>> Yeah. How how is it packaging different?

4:03:36So because the revenue streams are like

4:03:39we don't have water and sewer poly does.

4:03:42So but they have one fee that basically

4:03:45person they don't see under what it is

4:03:48but we are just charging only.

4:03:51>> We could look and see what they're

4:03:52doing. Does the PIL go towards capital

4:03:57costs primarily?

4:04:00>> Um, I'll let Byron and Genie. It needs

4:04:02to go towards parks improvement property

4:04:04purchase, but I'll

4:04:05>> let

4:04:08there's also um

4:04:10road EIL, right? Yes,

4:04:13>> that's restricted to the road

4:04:15>> anywhere, but is that capital or is that

4:04:18>> capital? So to answer your question,

4:04:20first of all, in terms of buckets, it's

4:04:22really in the bottom left and the top

4:04:24right bucket. You know, you all have the

4:04:26ability to influence that with your

4:04:27policies and we do consider it

4:04:30restricted because we actually when we

4:04:32receive it um put it into those reserve

4:04:35funds. So the streets PIL goes into the

4:04:37transportation reserve, the parks PIL

4:04:40goes into the parks reserve and so

4:04:42therefore it ends up fitting into the

4:04:43same category that those capital

4:04:45reserves fit into. Yes, we do use it for

4:04:47capital and it's for for that particular

4:04:49purpose which is part of the policy

4:04:52itself that you know the parks is going

4:04:54to be used for parks related things the

4:04:56transportation is going to be used for

4:04:57transportation related things

4:05:00>> yeah I think the a point that I would

4:05:02make would want to make on this is

4:05:05development comes in and it gives us one

4:05:07of these pils and we add new asphalt

4:05:10let's say we now have to maintain that

4:05:13asphalt

4:05:15is the revenue from that new development

4:05:18supporting that new asphalt be the um

4:05:22the maintenance of that new roadway that

4:05:24new asphalt that's more of a

4:05:26hypothetical question um that I'm

4:05:29throwing out from

4:05:31>> I will say for your transportation PIL

4:05:33there's some statute involvement there

4:05:35so we're capped at

4:05:38we have two PIL I think the

4:05:39transportation is the 150% um but we're

4:05:42capped on what we could charge for that

4:05:45um and it's based off of an engine's

4:05:47estim for the work.

4:05:51>> It would take a legislative change to

4:05:53get us future maintenance

4:05:56um funding for that, right? That's very

4:05:58unlikely.

4:05:59>> That's very unlikely.

4:06:00>> Very unlikely,

4:06:01>> but that ultimately comes from the um

4:06:04tax,

4:06:06>> right?

4:06:09your ongoing tax revenue in essence

4:06:12should be paying for whatever the cost

4:06:15of that development. So, so se seven,

4:06:20eight years ago, I think I don't know

4:06:21where Blake Mills was there. Um, he gave

4:06:24a presentation uh of the roads and I

4:06:28really like the chart. I have a

4:06:30photograph in memory. He says

4:06:32they have to catch the road has can has

4:06:35to be paved when there is like a curve

4:06:38there. It's 13 year 13th year is the

4:06:42life cycle. If they don't do it then the

4:06:44repair costs are higher something like

4:06:47that you know

4:06:49>> want to avoid that.

4:06:50>> Yeah. So that is helpful because once

4:06:53the town once the development gives the

4:06:55roads to the town it is our

4:06:58responsibility moving on and and usually

4:07:00it's 13

4:07:02I don't know where we are in like some

4:07:04streets are done recently. I don't know

4:07:06what what is planned for this year.

4:07:08>> Yeah. So we look uh every other year we

4:07:11do a condition assessment and rep

4:07:13prioritize based off what our assessment

4:07:16finds and try to address that. We have

4:07:18the goal of keeping our pavement

4:07:19condition index as a town at 80% or

4:07:22higher and we at 81 right now. So we we

4:07:27re-evaluate that to make sure we hit our

4:07:29worst spots to keep our system.

4:07:33>> I had asked a couple of questions on

4:07:35that on

4:07:37um that's average across town keeping

4:07:39that above 80.

4:07:41>> Correct.

4:07:42Um some of the questions that I had were

4:07:45um right what's the median uh what's the

4:07:48mode what's the um

4:07:50the minimum max right because average

4:07:52you could have a really terrible street

4:07:55but a bunch of really good quality

4:07:57streets and that would inform that above

4:08:0080% average but if that one street fails

4:08:02then that's a pretty big liability

4:08:06to to have to cover. That's why we're

4:08:08doing the cables now. We're allocating

4:08:11most of our funds right at that.

4:08:12>> But that's a different fund.

4:08:17>> Our fund.

4:08:18>> It is a different agree to supplement it

4:08:21and the fund will pay us back.

4:08:23>> Yeah. But that's a different 10 cents

4:08:25that

4:08:25>> Right. That's a different tax.

4:08:27>> What is it called? Ms. Ms.

4:08:30>> But I don't have to have it today. I

4:08:32would like to know especially kind of

4:08:34the the min and the max. that that would

4:08:38be a very good min scores.

4:08:42>> Yeah. But so so Harrison brings up a

4:08:45good point. So we're not just talking

4:08:47about roads. We're talking about the

4:08:49little development paper itself and

4:08:52future

4:08:54>> maintenance of whatever

4:08:56>> and you know the maybe we have some

4:08:59presentation to back this up or figure

4:09:02out the commercial is you know like 50%

4:09:06of our tax revenue and yet not as big a

4:09:09and I'm going to say drain

4:09:11[clears throat]

4:09:12>> contributor.

4:09:13>> Yeah. They're a huge contributor. That's

4:09:15right. use as many surfaces. Maybe sort

4:09:19of kind of yet, you know, that's why

4:09:23>> you have to really there's lots of

4:09:25nuances, right? We've had to buy fire

4:09:27trucks with ladders because we have

4:09:29commercial buildings that are high

4:09:31>> whereas maybe well you probably always

4:09:33need a ladder, but anyhow, maybe we had

4:09:35to buy a truck with a higher ladder. Um,

4:09:37first

4:09:38>> and that's why I think this geospatial

4:09:40productivity analysis, the the GIS

4:09:42mapping is important because we could

4:09:45then look at that and see, all right,

4:09:47well, what what is the money maker in

4:09:49town and what are we having to subsidize

4:09:52and is there a balance there?

4:10:01>> All right. Any other questions about the

4:10:04council authority?

4:10:09All right. So, we'll take a look at the

4:10:11toolbox really quickly and then I'll

4:10:12kind of get out the way and let you all

4:10:14talk. Um, so tax base growth looking

4:10:17ahead. What can we expect? What do we

4:10:19see, uh, you know, coming on the horizon

4:10:22where do we see, you know, pitfalls? Um,

4:10:25ultimately we know that there is some

4:10:27new development. It's nowhere near the

4:10:29level that it has been in the past, but

4:10:31it is still there. So, it's still

4:10:32something that we're looking forward to,

4:10:34something that we can um you know,

4:10:36ultimately look to help attribute those

4:10:39uh growing assessed values in the

4:10:41future. Um redevelopment is still

4:10:43there's still potential there. Um you

4:10:45know, that that's still also on the

4:10:47horizon as well. Um as well as just any

4:10:50other economic retention, any other

4:10:52economic development that um might play

4:10:55into this factor as well. Um the

4:10:58revaluation process. So, you all know

4:11:00that the county uh recently changed

4:11:02their revaluation process. It went from

4:11:04four years down to three years, which is

4:11:07why we're coming up on a reevaluation

4:11:08cycle this year, knowing that they're

4:11:10going to move to a two-year cycle moving

4:11:12forward. Um the the explanation that

4:11:15we've gotten from the county, the the

4:11:17explanation that they've given is as we

4:11:20shrink the amount of time between

4:11:23revaluations,

4:11:24you should not see large spikes in

4:11:27revaluation

4:11:28um or assess value the way that we did

4:11:30in this evaluation cycle um for uh the

4:11:33new council members. I know you all know

4:11:35this, but we did in 2025 see about a 48%

4:11:39spike going from the previous

4:11:41revaluation to the to the most recent

4:11:43one. Um the county's goal is to try and

4:11:45smooth that out a little bit, not see

4:11:47such a large spike um for a number of

4:11:50reasons. One, just the initial shock. Uh

4:11:53but also, you know, we've seen a number

4:11:56of appeals this past year and just as

4:11:58the manager stated earlier, we're hoping

4:12:01that the rest of them get resolved by

4:12:02the end of January. Um right now we we

4:12:05just don't know and and that is the

4:12:07challenge that we do have in all of

4:12:08this. We're going to come up on a new

4:12:10reevaluation cycle with still some level

4:12:13of uncertainty depending on what ends up

4:12:15happening with those last few appeals.

4:12:17And we aren't the only county that that

4:12:18is having to deal with this. We aren't

4:12:19the only municipality that's dealing

4:12:21with this. Um there's a a significant

4:12:24backlog with the state that's driving a

4:12:26lot of this um uncertainty when it comes

4:12:28to that. Um but then you just get into

4:12:31the existing base and yes

4:12:34>> just on that you know they said it's a

4:12:37million dollars in this one if we lose

4:12:41all of it what would be the current rate

4:12:44then they have to give the tax they

4:12:47can't run away from the tax. So what is

4:12:48that number

4:12:49>> if so say your question one more time if

4:12:52we

4:12:52>> might be able to answer the remaining

4:12:54ones with the remaining ones with the

4:12:56remaining ones with the remaining ones

4:12:58>> on the current assessment

4:13:00>> we lost a million how much more will we

4:13:01lose

4:13:02>> no no no we it's it's we are losing a

4:13:04million we are saying basically we

4:13:06didn't get million dollar so for example

4:13:10my house u tax is 5,000

4:13:14>> I appealed

4:13:16you know it went 3 to five. So he will

4:13:20basically say we didn't get 5,000 but I

4:13:24still have to pay the 3,000 no matter

4:13:26what. So what is the amount and what is

4:13:29the delta there?

4:13:30>> Uh we can we can certainly

4:13:32>> yeah because that that might be a you

4:13:33know that's a key to find out what we

4:13:36really are losing because end of the day

4:13:38they have to pay taxes either that level

4:13:41or the level below that. I remember

4:13:44seeing that the max of the remaining

4:13:46would be 500,000 but but what that I

4:13:50don't even know if that max is the right

4:13:52thing to say there because there was a

4:13:54lower max I can't remember exactly the

4:13:57numbers but we lost a million max

4:14:00500,000 more

4:14:02>> yeah that's what we said to date if you

4:14:04recall as a part of the developing the

4:14:0627 budget you know we knew the million

4:14:09was gone but then we specifically didn't

4:14:11budget count on any of the 500,000 that

4:14:15was stillended. We don't expect to lose

4:14:174500,000.

4:14:19You know, we did we did some information

4:14:2230 45 days ago. We all that followed up

4:14:25on how to look at the revaluation and

4:14:27what some of the data behind that was

4:14:29and how different property types out.

4:14:32So, you know, there's a percentage

4:14:33there. I forget top what that percentage

4:14:36is. What we're going to lose, we assume

4:14:38some that 500, but anything we don't

4:14:41lose is is essentially money we didn't

4:14:44account for that could become part of

4:14:47that January conversation as well. And

4:14:50so then when that settled, whatever was

4:14:53missing out of that, you know, then we

4:14:54get the new revaluation in January and

4:14:57then that'll impact things are there,

4:15:00>> right? and and uh the manager makes a

4:15:02good point and I do kind of want to

4:15:03emphasize that in January there is

4:15:06another level set and that is this new

4:15:08revaluation process. So any any current

4:15:12any property that ultimately got

4:15:14appealed this past revaluation cycle

4:15:16they will have a new revaluation or they

4:15:18will have a new assessed value. That

4:15:21assessed value they it's within their

4:15:23right to appeal if they so choose. Um

4:15:26our hope uh just based on the way things

4:15:28are going some of those appeals are

4:15:31already going to kind of be factored

4:15:32into this. So you know if a if a

4:15:35property was ultimately valued at $10

4:15:36million and they said they were valued

4:15:39at five whatever the state ultimately

4:15:42decided that's going to be factored into

4:15:44the county's decision. They aren't just

4:15:46going to arbitrarily say all right

4:15:48you're back at $10 million just because

4:15:50we felt like it. Um there is a level of

4:15:53scientific data that they try and go

4:15:55through with this. Um there's a lot of

4:15:57anecdotal data that they try and go

4:15:59through with this. So we're hoping and

4:16:02and I want to emphasize that hoping that

4:16:05one the smoothing out of this will make

4:16:07it a little bit more level and we won't

4:16:09see nearly as many appeals. But also

4:16:11factoring in what happened last time

4:16:13that the county is going to consider

4:16:15that in their uh reevaluation process

4:16:18for the upcoming cycle. Um, what that

4:16:20very well might mean though is that our

4:16:23valuation might be lower than what we

4:16:25would normally have anticipated. Yes,

4:16:26sir.

4:16:27>> Um, I would like it stated for the

4:16:30record

4:16:32how um I think it's apartments are

4:16:35different than most other properties and

4:16:37certainly residential.

4:16:39>> Um, I think that is I I just want that

4:16:42for the record if that can be shared.

4:16:45So, um, and and if this isn't where

4:16:48you're kind of going with this, let me

4:16:49know. But ultimately, apartments, even

4:16:51though it's a residential property that

4:16:53people are living in, it's categorized

4:16:55as a commercial property.

4:16:56>> And so therefore, they kind of behave a

4:16:59lot closer to the way you see other

4:17:01commercial properties behed

4:17:05into all of that. And therefore, when

4:17:07they don't have as much occupancy, they

4:17:09tend to appeal and end up winning that

4:17:11appeal based on the level of tax

4:17:14ultimately they feel as though they can

4:17:16pay. I I know I'm oversimplifying this,

4:17:18but only

4:17:19>> a lot of market

4:17:21>> kind of discretion or maybe the the

4:17:24board of equalization review is looking

4:17:26at market data more than um maybe a

4:17:29residential property,

4:17:31>> right? Residential property, it's it's

4:17:33often looked at as as comps, other

4:17:35residential properties in the area. Uh

4:17:37commercial properties aren't really

4:17:39looked at quite the same way. And so a

4:17:42um an apartment complex behaves like a

4:17:45commercial property for that reason. And

4:17:47so therefore the um it's a lot more

4:17:50sensitive to that market chose those

4:17:52market changes and therefore they end up

4:17:54appealing a lot more and that having a

4:17:56lot more effect on their valuation. Um

4:17:59council

4:18:01>> just um on this topic um I know there

4:18:06was a lot of discussion Vick County has

4:18:08a program like need help paying your

4:18:10property tax bill right and like it's

4:18:13they have categories for like reduce tax

4:18:18value for the home like 65 older 100%

4:18:21disabled veterans seniors and all kinds

4:18:24of things. So

4:18:27do they pay both the town and the county

4:18:30taxes or and if so do we know how many

4:18:34they are waving

4:18:37um that we are aware that we'll we are

4:18:40losing tax on

4:18:43>> so do we know how many they're waving

4:18:46off off the top of my head for sure I

4:18:48don't know how they're waving um

4:18:49>> just curious because you know I want to

4:18:52make sure like people are utilizing that

4:18:54feature that is available to them,

4:18:56>> right?

4:18:57>> And and if so,

4:19:00they're not paying taxes to us. So, how

4:19:02much is that?

4:19:04>> It's a Wake County program. We're not

4:19:06losing any tax revenue from that, are

4:19:07we?

4:19:08>> Yeah. Reduce tax amount.

4:19:11>> Yes. So, we are

4:19:12>> US affects us as well.

4:19:15>> As it should.

4:19:16>> It's it's overall backwards.

4:19:19Ultimately, if if they end up paying 40%

4:19:21less, I

4:19:24what I'll say is I don't know for sure.

4:19:26I will I'll be able to research that.

4:19:28We'll be able to bring that back to you.

4:19:30Um, as Genie always says, we'll put it

4:19:31in the parking lot and bring that back.

4:19:36already come through the pipeline

4:19:37already in terms of exemp

4:20:03and and uh so particular with Genie. I'm

4:20:05interested in non-commercial properties

4:20:09because that basically boils down to

4:20:12residential.

4:20:16>> Um, so I believe every six months you

4:20:19should have an item in your

4:20:22>> I think it comes through administrative

4:20:24reports that the clerk provides you way

4:20:26county tax rebates, refunds, etc. Um,

4:20:30that is a report that the clerk's office

4:20:33receives every clerk in the county

4:20:35receives from Wake County and it shows

4:20:38the typically the the prior month and

4:20:41they get them in an acred uh basis. So

4:20:44it shows whatever level of relief

4:20:47someone has applied for and the Wake

4:20:49County Tax Board has approved. I know

4:20:53it's commercial. I believe it is also

4:20:55residential. So it is listed by name and

4:20:57address. So you have that in your

4:21:00council agenda packet at least every six

4:21:03months. approved basis.

4:21:07>> So,

4:21:08>> you've had it since I've been clerk. So,

4:21:10you've had it for at least 10 years.

4:21:12>> Wasn't it on the last I think it was on

4:21:13the last agenda, was it?

4:21:15>> Yeah, they come through quarterly, I

4:21:17believe, and they're on your consent

4:21:18agenda because they're not really

4:21:20something for you to decide. It's just

4:21:22an awareness so that we're required to

4:21:24share that. We want you required to

4:21:27share that with you. Um, it does impact

4:21:29residential. Um, so I can tell you that

4:21:32um, Miss Mitchell, who you know lives

4:21:35behind Church Street there, so I try to

4:21:37help her as much as I can. And so her

4:21:40recent bill was cut in half and that

4:21:42included Wake County and Morrisville

4:21:45numbers. So I think what I believe what

4:21:48the county is doing and she's got the

4:21:49senior exemption as others have

4:21:51different exemptions.

4:21:53They're not necessarily saying we reduce

4:21:55your taxes. They're saying, "Okay, we

4:21:56reduce your assessment and that's why we

4:21:59see that reduction as well as weight

4:22:01count."

4:22:01>> Yeah. The the It's funny I'm talking

4:22:04about this not because I know um the

4:22:06Sheras texted me yesterday that Mr.

4:22:10Sharma missed the deadline. It is on

4:22:13like 31st or something.

4:22:17>> My point also is that we do know the

4:22:19majority of that because you have to

4:22:21file before you know you have to pay

4:22:23your taxes. So if you don't you may miss

4:22:26it. You can I think go through a process

4:22:28to get that overridden but in most cases

4:22:31we're going to know when we get that tax

4:22:34that's

4:22:36>> so so TJ the reason I'm bringing this up

4:22:38is you know people ask all the time like

4:22:41you know what can we do

4:22:43>> this

4:22:44>> and they're doing it but no one tells us

4:22:46that it is happening at the back end

4:22:47till we know how many houses are really

4:22:50taking advantage of it.

4:22:52>> I just want to point you all back to

4:22:55information we sent you that's actually

4:23:00an

4:23:08information for you. I think I need to

4:23:10take it a step further.

4:23:13I also circle back to while talking

4:23:16about loss of million revenue.

4:23:20Our estimates have been in this report

4:23:23of assess

4:23:26estimated potential

4:23:32that's all to be proved out once we get

4:23:35to January and bring back

4:23:50that updated

4:23:53similar

4:23:55So, Byron, they're not giving you any

4:23:57indication of the the results of the

4:24:01appeal. Usually, you get some kind of

4:24:03income.

4:24:06>> Yeah. Well, I know we'll get an update

4:24:08when it's all said and done about where

4:24:10we're at.

4:24:10>> So, um we get it in aggregate. Um not

4:24:14each individual parcel, each individual

4:24:16result of that. Um, but each month when

4:24:20when Wake County sends us the property

4:24:22tax amounts for the month, they do

4:24:25typically um they do typically include

4:24:28like the amount that has been refunded.

4:24:30Uh, so yes, we do get that just not

4:24:33there have been 12 appeals successfully

4:24:36processed and therefore you've lost this

4:24:38much revenue. It's just you've lost this

4:24:40much revenue. We don't know what it's

4:24:42necessarily attributed to.

4:24:44>> I'm sorry that I asked that totally

4:24:46wrong. reset

4:24:49for the new revaluation process and for

4:24:53that data.

4:24:54>> Do we have a heads up of what

4:24:57>> um what that's looking like? Are they

4:24:59giving you any indication? Are you

4:25:01hearing anything about what we're going

4:25:03to know come January?

4:25:04>> So, we don't yet because they won't

4:25:06actually start that process until

4:25:08January.

4:25:09>> So, that'll be when they start to go out

4:25:11and do that because it's actually for

4:25:13the the following year. Um it's just

4:25:15they they go ahead and they start that

4:25:17process and we have to you know go

4:25:19through that um you know that that new

4:25:23assessed value and and do our revenue

4:25:25neutral calculation in order to bring

4:25:26that to you. Um but we we don't have

4:25:29anything um set right now. I imagine in

4:25:33the coming months we're going to start

4:25:34to hear things. Um the the Wake County

4:25:38Tax Office has has been pretty proactive

4:25:40certainly since I've been here um and

4:25:43and heard lots of good things about

4:25:45them. Obviously it's it was a very

4:25:47challenging couple of years for them um

4:25:49as it was for all the other

4:25:50municipalities. But I think because of

4:25:52that I I can see them being a lot more

4:25:54proactive this year and trying to get

4:25:56ahead of the message, trying to get a

4:25:58sense of what they're looking at to help

4:26:00determine their their assessed values uh

4:26:03going into it. Yes, at the end of the

4:26:05day, they're going to start that process

4:26:06in January and go through and touch all

4:26:08of those properties in order to figure

4:26:10out a fair valuation for all of them.

4:26:12Uh, but we just we don't know what that

4:26:14number is yet. We haven't got any

4:26:16definitive inclination as to what

4:26:18they're going to start to see come

4:26:20January.

4:26:27>> If you go to our budget page, we do have

4:26:29links to counties programs there.

4:26:33It does have a June 1st deadline for the

4:26:37for the senior

4:26:40and it does mention reducing property

4:26:42value, not specifically property tax.

4:26:47>> I've got um

4:26:50something that I've been thinking about

4:26:52and scribbling. So, um these

4:26:59the apartment resonings are

4:27:02The reason the department appeals are

4:27:04interesting because there's an

4:27:06intersection here between municipal

4:27:09finance and housing policy and really

4:27:12you know affordable housing and

4:27:13obviously affordable housing is um a

4:27:16huge topic on everybody's minds but I'm

4:27:19seeing um you know I'm seeing the the

4:27:22tensions right and I feel that having a

4:27:26more comprehensive understanding of that

4:27:29tension because why are they you know

4:27:32what's going in more more specifically

4:27:34what's going into those decisions,

4:27:36what's going into that stuff. Um, right?

4:27:39If apartments are reducing their taxes,

4:27:41but um uh not reducing rents, for

4:27:45example, um

4:27:48you know, is that is there is there kind

4:27:50of a a gaming of the system to this to

4:27:54the detriment of not only the town but

4:27:56then a residents and the folks that are

4:27:58living in these apartments? Um, and I'm

4:28:01thinking about our uh, you know, that S

4:28:04Street that's coming. Um, you know,

4:28:06there might be folks that they're going

4:28:07to say, you know, we need an apartment

4:28:09resoning because we need to build more

4:28:11housing to make housing affordable, but

4:28:15that the the

4:28:18maybe unintended consequences, let's

4:28:20say, of

4:28:23uh, you know, I maybe our housing policy

4:28:26being informed by what is happening in

4:28:29reality and then also understanding how

4:28:31that is affecting our finances to, you

4:28:34know, be able to provide provide an

4:28:36affordable housing uh program, right?

4:28:38Policies [snorts] and incentives in that

4:28:40way. Um so it's all kind of systems

4:28:43related. Um but having a better

4:28:46understanding of how that all kind of

4:28:47fits together I think would be very very

4:28:49valuable.

4:28:50>> Um so so I can't necessarily speak to

4:28:53individual uh rent decisions uh you know

4:28:57because obviously we aren't necessarily

4:28:58privy to that information. Um I what I

4:29:01will say and just kind of for what it's

4:29:04for what it's worth ultimately um you

4:29:07know you all decide to you know move

4:29:10forward with affordable housing [snorts]

4:29:11choose to do affordable housing and

4:29:13there are pros and cons to that you know

4:29:15and and one of from from my perspective

4:29:18in finance and looking [snorts] at the

4:29:20tax administration aspect of it all. Um

4:29:23affordable housing uh does end up

4:29:26qualifying for certain reduced tax or c

4:29:29reduced assessed values. There are

4:29:31changes to the tax rate or not to the

4:29:32tax rate to the amount of tax

4:29:34>> the blue

4:29:36>> um I'm not talking about a specific one

4:29:38just um just in general if a if an

4:29:41apartment complex does qualify as an

4:29:43affordable housing apartment complex it

4:29:45does allow them to reduce that

4:29:47particular tax liability for them. Um

4:29:50now does that mean that you should not

4:29:52do affordable housing? No, it doesn't.

4:29:54Obviously, like I said, there are pros

4:29:55and cons to that. There are trade-offs

4:29:57that end up having to happen. Um, that's

4:29:59certainly something we can take a look

4:30:00at and see who does qualify for that in

4:30:03order to be able to bring that

4:30:04information back to you just so that you

4:30:05can be informed in terms of who's

4:30:07qualifying for it, what that what that

4:30:10delta is, what that liability that

4:30:12that's being reduced there so that we

4:30:14understand how much taxes uh or how much

4:30:17tax ultimately we aren't receiving due

4:30:19to affordable housing. We do that.

4:30:21>> Yeah, it's a system. It's like a like a

4:30:24um

4:30:27mobile

4:30:28however that's pronounced, right? You

4:30:30start tugging on something over here

4:30:31because it's it's one of our priorities,

4:30:33but then it starts to affect something

4:30:34over here and it's like, well, we don't

4:30:35want that balanced,

4:30:36>> right? you're trying to trying to

4:30:38balance this whole thing but with with

4:30:39with an incomplete picture on how

4:30:41everything is relating to each other.

4:30:43But I would like to say seeing the last

4:30:48like you know the the session happened

4:30:50in the legislative

4:30:53towns will start losing authority you

4:30:56know uh pretty soon because for the

4:30:59first time the governor the Republicans

4:31:01and the Democrats are all on the same

4:31:03page for housing and uh the commercial

4:31:07if you basically even we zone saying

4:31:09it's a commercial and it has more than

4:31:1150,000 or 80,000 that's going away and I

4:31:15was talking last week that in the sum in

4:31:19the winter session they are actually

4:31:21going to reduce that number to much

4:31:23lower. So we we can't no longer dictate

4:31:27our land use plan to tell them to do

4:31:30what and and the general frustration in

4:31:34the Jones Street is the towns are very

4:31:37very rigid and they're not allowing

4:31:40housing. That's pretty much a blanket

4:31:42statement that's coming all across. So,

4:31:46and and they have reduced the parking

4:31:49and the from 80,000

4:31:53trust me I know the number but I don't

4:31:54want to say that how much it's going to

4:31:57but it's it's a lot of the authorities

4:31:59will be taken away,000.

4:32:04>> So, um what they did was the population

4:32:08of the town has to be 80,000 or more. So

4:32:10basically it is uh affecting Kerry uh

4:32:14big quantity they didn't even say

4:32:16including the counties too. So Mlinburg

4:32:18those kind of things rally so if if you

4:32:22have a piece of land it's zone

4:32:24commercial and I want to go and I as a

4:32:27builder as a home builder

4:32:30can go there and now make it housing on

4:32:34a commercial piece of property.

4:32:38>> Yeah. It'll override.

4:32:41>> So you can do a single family res.

4:32:45>> It says housing.

4:32:47>> It says housing. I don't know because

4:32:50for the best deal people will do

4:32:52apartments. I'm

4:32:54>> very single family.

4:32:57>> It's density.

4:32:58>> It's density.

4:32:59They're trying to pack density and

4:33:01affordability

4:33:02>> dense housing to help with the

4:33:05affordability issue,

4:33:06>> right? And they're not requiring or

4:33:08anything

4:33:10>> like like ours one one use. That's it.

4:33:14So, I want to share some data that I'll

4:33:16probably be sharing um in an upcoming

4:33:19session, but the North Carolina Housing

4:33:21Finance Agency, and this is more so for

4:33:22the record, the North Carolina Housing

4:33:24Finance Agency has some data, a snapshot

4:33:26of housing in the state, in every county

4:33:29in Wake County. There are uh 460

4:33:33households, 460,000 households, and and

4:33:36this is for 2024, and then 496,000

4:33:39housing units.

4:33:42However, 48.5 I'm I'm not going to put

4:33:44on that. It's roughly 15 50% uh of

4:33:47renters and about 17% of homeowners are

4:33:51cost burdened. So to me, what that what

4:33:53those numbers tell me is that it's not

4:33:55the number of units that are being

4:33:57built, it's the affordability of the

4:34:00units.

4:34:01>> Yeah.

4:34:03And that's the reason for the very fact

4:34:05you said they want to increase the

4:34:07number of units to bring down the

4:34:09affordable rate.

4:34:11>> But the data goes back 10 years.

4:34:14>> The the the affordability is not getting

4:34:16better.

4:34:18>> The costs are

4:34:20>> but the programs that we have like

4:34:23affordable housing um uh uh program for

4:34:27rental assistance and that that sort of

4:34:28thing those

4:34:30probably more so address affordability

4:34:33than just building more housing. But I

4:34:36think we've went into a rabbit.

4:34:43>> But it's a it's it's important because

4:34:44it's going to affect us in the future.

4:34:50Um so yes it is a little bit outside of

4:34:53our uh influence which does nicely segue

4:34:56into what do we have the ability to

4:34:59influence and one of those things is

4:35:01user fees. So um obviously user fees

4:35:06help reduce the burden on taxpayers

4:35:08because as it stated a user fee a fee

4:35:10for service the person who is utilizing

4:35:13the service is the one that's paying the

4:35:15fee. Um, payment and loos also kind of

4:35:18fits into that category as well. There's

4:35:20infrastructure improvements that are

4:35:21associated with that. Um, we do see that

4:35:23frequency changing a little bit. I know

4:35:25we've covered that some, but uh, did

4:35:27want to point that out. And then just

4:35:29lastly, um, you know, user fees really

4:35:32are meant to shift that burden from the

4:35:35general taxpayer to the folks that are

4:35:37actually going to utilize that service.

4:35:39Um, so that's obviously something that

4:35:41we want you all to kind of um discuss

4:35:43certainly in your budget philosophy and

4:35:45if anybody has any questions definitely

4:35:47here to be able to talk about that

4:35:52>> either one of you.

4:35:57Yes,

4:35:57>> we have a parks.

4:35:59>> Correct.

4:36:00>> We have

4:36:06>> street.

4:36:19Um, since we increased their parks, has

4:36:23there been any developments that have

4:36:27not actually develop the amenity.

4:36:32>> Do we have that option?

4:36:34>> Well, I mean, yeah, like the um single

4:36:38family home developments have an option

4:36:41to develop a park in their community.

4:36:50But I think we have never seen another

4:36:53community,

4:36:55never seen

4:36:57park,

4:37:04you know, Michelle probably, you know,

4:37:06validate that

4:37:08amazing assumption of

4:37:14>> Yeah, I think we need to be careful

4:37:16about payment as it's a behavioral tool

4:37:22as well as a revenue tool.

4:37:25policy decision about what we value in

4:37:28the town as much as how we can get

4:37:32another

4:37:43>> so facility rentals uh storm water fees

4:37:46factor that into there. I know that fits

4:37:48into a little bit of a sort of in

4:37:50between area u but yes certainly um you

4:37:54know facility rentals, uh, you know,

4:37:56shelter rentals in parks, uh, the

4:37:58ability to participate in, say, sporting

4:38:00events or, um, you know, to utilize the

4:38:03aquatics and fitness center. Um,

4:38:05building inspections, that's that's a

4:38:07user fee as well. Um, that that's a

4:38:09choice that someone is ultimately

4:38:11deciding to build here and therefore

4:38:12they're paying that that that particular

4:38:14fee. So, all those types of of fees is

4:38:17is ultimately what we're talking

4:38:21>> fire inspection.

4:38:24assistant fire marshal position. We

4:38:26didn't really add a huge burden to the

4:38:28budget that year because it was part

4:38:32and then there was the ability to

4:38:34increase fire inspections to increase

4:38:36the revenue. So I think that position

4:38:38was not quite 5050 and we did about 40%

4:38:43of it from existing parttime money and

4:38:46maybe another 40% of it from you're

4:38:48going to anticipate and I think we

4:38:54just addend.

4:39:02>> All right. And then uh lastly when it

4:39:04comes to you know

4:39:06an unknown. We have two major unknowns

4:39:08here. One is sponsorships and obviously

4:39:10it's an unknown because it's just not a

4:39:12set amount. Um you know, superlative is

4:39:15as the manager mentioned, they'll be

4:39:16here soon. Um and so hopefully we'll

4:39:19have a little bit more information there

4:39:20and and you all will be privy to that as

4:39:22soon as we have that. Um and then the

4:39:24last thing that I do want to talk about

4:39:25and give you all the opportunity to talk

4:39:26about is any future municipal service

4:39:28districts. Um that obviously is

4:39:30something that would require special

4:39:32legislation that we would have to get.

4:39:34Um area that I'm kind of about here is

4:39:36Town Center and the ability to do a

4:39:38municipal service district at Town

4:39:40Center knowing that the other one is

4:39:42getting ready to while it's going to pay

4:39:44the the general fund back. Um you know

4:39:47the last project is the Gables as the

4:39:49manager or excuse me the mayor mentioned

4:39:51earlier um and that does wrap up the

4:39:54street resurfacing and street

4:39:55reconstruction part of what the previous

4:39:57municipal service district was being

4:39:59utilized for. Um any questions about

4:40:02revenues before we kind of move on to

4:40:03the budget philosophy?

4:40:10Yes. So, uh, the state does allow

4:40:12municipalities to essentially levy a

4:40:15special tax on a specific area for a

4:40:18specific purpose. So, we have one in

4:40:21town which was a municipal service

4:40:23district to help um and I'll I'll let

4:40:25others be able to kind of further

4:40:27explain it um you know with in terms of

4:40:29the historical information associated

4:40:31with it, but we had some neighborhoods

4:40:32in town that had private roads and um in

4:40:35order to bring those roads up to

4:40:37standard and make them public roads uh a

4:40:40pretty significant amount of capital

4:40:42needed to be in uh influx into those

4:40:44particular roads in those communities.

4:40:47And so what the town ultimately decided

4:40:49to do was levy a 10-centent tax in that

4:40:51particular area for those particular

4:40:54streets. And that 10-cent tax in

4:40:56addition to some additional uh

4:40:58supplement from the general fund from

4:41:00the town allowed us to be able to get a

4:41:03lot of those reconstruction projects

4:41:04done. Right now we have one left and

4:41:06that is the reconstruction at the

4:41:07gables. And once that's done, um, that

4:41:11that clears out the the the queue of

4:41:14roads that needed, you know, fixing,

4:41:15reconstruction, brought up to town

4:41:17standards. And, you know, the the

4:41:20remaining funding that would be

4:41:21generated from that 10 cents will pay

4:41:23the general fund back and pay the town

4:41:25back for their uh contribution to those

4:41:28particular projects. And once that

4:41:30happens, that municipal service

4:41:31district.

4:41:33So this

4:41:35one it goes back to Harrison's question.

4:41:40What is the maintenance of those roads

4:41:42in the future? Um and your neighborhood

4:41:46in Breen Ridge pays 10 cents less than

4:41:50what I pay because it's all private

4:41:52streets and you are responsible for

4:41:55maintaining yours.

4:41:58recreation of municipal service

4:41:59district.

4:42:00>> Your your subdivision

4:42:01>> manners

4:42:02>> manners manners pays 10 cents less.

4:42:07>> Huh?

4:42:08>> Yes.

4:42:11>> Less tax

4:42:14additional 10 cents.

4:42:16>> Yeah. Yours you're No, they are not

4:42:18charged. Actually, it's less because it

4:42:20the municipality doesn't even do it.

4:42:22They do it on their own.

4:42:23>> Yeah,

4:42:24>> that's true. Because it's a private

4:42:25road.

4:42:25>> It's a private road. So, so,

4:42:27>> so we we we pay the tax

4:42:31of um

4:42:33>> Well, yeah. So, we pay the we we pay the

4:42:36town tax, but then there's also that HOA

4:42:38on top of that.

4:42:38>> No, no, that's not a tax. Okay.

4:42:40>> It's not a tax, but it's more

4:42:42>> No, no, no. What I'm trying to say is

4:42:45>> like

4:42:46>> no no no it's it is important because

4:42:50a private street either it can come in

4:42:52for form of MSD or Breenidge has six

4:42:56subdivisions which are private which are

4:42:59private

4:43:00private are private what we get taxed

4:43:04because it's a private street and we

4:43:06don't have to the town doesn't have to

4:43:08maintain it

4:43:10>> you don't record it is in the MSD He's

4:43:14saying he's saying it's not. And so

4:43:15therefore, it's not that they really pay

4:43:1710 cents less. It's that the ones in the

4:43:19MSD actually pay 10 cents more.

4:43:21>> Oh yeah. So for MSD pays 10 cents more,

4:43:24but the other neighborhoods which are

4:43:27maintaining their own streets which are

4:43:29private pay 10 cents less.

4:43:35>> That's a misrepresentation.

4:43:39That's normal. That's standard. There

4:43:42are in 2006

4:43:47>> um the MS was created with town manager

4:43:50thinking that it'd be great if you could

4:43:53raise all the town roads in the private

4:43:55subdivision

4:43:57standards and I think that it would

4:44:01improve the standards of the town.

4:44:04And my question is this, even if I was

4:44:06part of MSD like I think or something

4:44:12until the MS is dissolved so that

4:44:15everybody

4:44:18is going to have to pay the nextbody

4:44:23until

4:44:28they'll continue to pay into the future.

4:44:30>> Right. And then once that buyback has

4:44:34been met or that payback has been met

4:44:38then we still have maintenance costs

4:44:40which was your point. It's like where

4:44:43does that come from? It's not bill.

4:44:47So now we have mainted

4:44:53fund.

4:44:55>> It's and and the only reason I tell this

4:44:5810 cents is because

4:45:01I've been told several times

4:45:04don't mess with the manners and the

4:45:06others because they are private and the

4:45:09only reason they want it to stay

4:45:10private. They can come and become uh

4:45:14public then it'll come under MSD and you

4:45:18have to charge

4:45:19>> is closed. Okay. No no no I'm saying or

4:45:22or or might be some some form of if if

4:45:24at all they want to accept it.

4:45:27>> Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. So, Jeie knows

4:45:30this better than I do. Let's go back

4:45:31into history. Every It was the public

4:45:35who wanted

4:45:37the town to take over their private

4:45:40roads. And so, the town manager at the

4:45:42time tried to figure out because people

4:45:44were complaining all the time. I'm

4:45:46paying taxes and yet nobody's taking

4:45:49care of my roads. I have to my HOA. I

4:45:51pay through my HOA to take care of my

4:45:53roads. And so, he came up with this. We

4:45:57every townhouse community because those

4:45:59are the ones that typically have the

4:46:01private roads is they wanted to enter

4:46:03this MSD district and they were told at

4:46:06the time that's it we're done you either

4:46:09come in now or you don't come in because

4:46:12we knew this was going to be a

4:46:13multi-deade

4:46:15long-term kind of payback period and so

4:46:18there was a great deal of outreach into

4:46:21the community every neighborhood was

4:46:23invited and talked to and there were

4:46:25only the that entered into the MSD and

4:46:29that is closed. That is clear. I'm going

4:46:32to repeat that till the day I'm done.

4:46:33That is closed. We cannot nobody can

4:46:36join that again because those

4:46:39neighborhoods

4:46:40have been

4:46:42paying an additional 10 cent tax rate on

4:46:45their property value to be in this

4:46:48district and have this work done in

4:46:51their neighborhoods.

4:46:54And and just [cough] so as an aside, at

4:46:57the same time, we also eliminated

4:47:00private roads. All the the newer multif

4:47:02family developments are all public

4:47:04roads. Um so that was a big piece of

4:47:07this. So there's nobody was left out in

4:47:10this equation,

4:47:11>> right?

4:47:14>> And they were built. So So let me also

4:47:17say this. So when when those folks that

4:47:20bought their townhouse that had had a

4:47:24private road network.

4:47:27They were far more um affordable. They

4:47:32were far more inexpensive because there

4:47:34wasn't because I'm sorry, all of this is

4:47:36passed on to the home buyer. No, nobody

4:47:39absorbs anything. It was all passed on.

4:47:42Whereas those townhouse neighborhoods

4:47:44that were all built with public roads,

4:47:47those are much more expensive pieces of

4:47:49property because they were all paying

4:47:52for the public road just like when I

4:47:53bought my house and the cost of the

4:47:56public road in front of my house was

4:47:58factored into the price of my house. So

4:47:59anyhow, I don't know, you there's a lot

4:48:02more you could add.

4:48:03>> So if we're talking about establishing a

4:48:08a municipal service district like I like

4:48:11that is a way separate discussion than

4:48:15anything we need to cover here. So I

4:48:18mean can we like can we sort of high

4:48:20level it as a municipal service district

4:48:23is an option it's a trigger we could

4:48:26pull if it came to that but I mean we

4:48:29don't just explain this we're not trying

4:48:32to create anything we're just trying to

4:48:34help our understand

4:48:37what it is why it is and

4:48:41almost

4:48:43what that means for taxpayers.

4:48:51>> I have one question about this though. I

4:48:54thought when we got the legislative

4:48:57authority for the current um MSD it was

4:49:01very specific.

4:49:03>> Okay. So I'm hearing

4:49:06>> it's not process

4:49:10that it's great to learn what does it

4:49:13mean but it is an option in the future

4:49:15to leverage again. I think there's some

4:49:17strong lessons learned from this mind

4:49:21club, but it is a tool you could

4:49:24potentially leverage again for other

4:49:27things for people who benefit from the

4:49:29service directly for whatever

4:49:31improvement you're doing in a specific

4:49:33district. You could potentially apply

4:49:36this tool again at some point in the

4:49:39future.

4:49:39>> Those funds have to be reinvested into

4:49:41that space for that purpose. very

4:49:44specific

4:49:46stakeholders.

4:49:47>> I I would be particularly interested if

4:49:50um we look at a hypothetical scenario uh

4:49:54we took all of the private roads that

4:49:57exist in Morrisville and we assumed them

4:50:00into our um

4:50:04>> uh services. Yes. Into our road network.

4:50:07um you know, what effect would that have

4:50:09on, you know, our budget discussions and

4:50:12our financial future? Um because I can

4:50:15imagine there might be some some

4:50:17situations where

4:50:19the neighborhoods can't they just can't

4:50:20maintain this anymore. It's too

4:50:22expensive for them to maintain and you

4:50:23know, increasing the the the HOA

4:50:25properties or HOA um

4:50:29>> fees.

4:50:35reserve.

4:50:38>> So I'm gonna tell you right now that is

4:50:40not even a topic I want to entertain.

4:50:43>> I live through this.

4:50:44>> Yeah, it's done.

4:50:45>> I live through this. It is done.

4:50:48>> Not entertain. That's me. But that's me.

4:50:50>> Oh, I think that's also me. I think that

4:50:53most of us

4:50:53>> we don't have a whole lot other than I

4:50:55think you Breenidge is the only private

4:50:59streets or few like left like that which

4:51:02was intentionally done and they they

4:51:04didn't join

4:51:06>> they did not join and and they are okay

4:51:08with it

4:51:09>> and it was a choice that was made and I

4:51:11realize I realize property owners have

4:51:14have um changed as well. I realize that,

4:51:17but it that was a one and done done. It

4:51:21there's so much to this topic. I I I do

4:51:24not want to entertain. I think that it's

4:51:26not fair. I'm into fairness and that

4:51:30that would not be fair to the to the

4:51:33taxpayers. So, anyhow, I said my piece,

4:51:37>> but it's a tool in the tool box.

4:51:40[snorts]

4:51:40>> It was a tool and now it could be a

4:51:43different

4:51:44district.

4:51:46open to a whole different district.

4:51:49>> No discussion.

4:51:51>> Okay. Um, so in terms of slides, that's

4:51:54all that I have for that. Any any other

4:51:56followup uh discussion about revenue

4:51:58before we move on to philosophy

4:52:01>> only that I like more information on

4:52:03that for my own research

4:52:07>> MS the MSD.

4:52:13>> All right. So we'll move on to to uh the

4:52:16budget philosophy. I'll let Jeie kind of

4:52:18jump in here, but um in terms of goals,

4:52:21we really do want you all to be able to

4:52:23have an open discussion amongst

4:52:24yourselves about what it is you all see

4:52:26as your budget philosophy. Um you know,

4:52:29it's not necessarily meant to be a

4:52:31discussion where you all come to a

4:52:33complete consensus and then ultimately,

4:52:36you know, set aside everything that

4:52:38needs to be in the FY28 budget. This is

4:52:40just an opportunity for you all to be

4:52:41able to talk, be able to entertain each

4:52:44other, be able to understand each other

4:52:46more than anything else. Um, those are

4:52:49the big things. Obviously, council

4:52:51priorities are very important in all of

4:52:53that. So, definitely have that be a part

4:52:55of the conversation. We do have a couple

4:52:56of things that you all have mentioned

4:52:57earlier and we can certainly bring those

4:52:59back up as as as prompts, but I'll let

4:53:01you jump in here.

4:53:03>> I think this one's Brandon.

4:53:04>> Oh, Brandon. Sorry.

4:53:06>> Whoever wants to take.

4:53:07>> So, I I'll start off. Um again what you

4:53:11know one of the things is like the

4:53:13theme. So theme philosophy perhaps

4:53:15interchangeable you know in the past is

4:53:17how managers typically assign a theme to

4:53:20the budget that's brought to you. Um so

4:53:22I think you know this is a little bit of

4:53:24a different time a different approach.

4:53:25So we're open to having that

4:53:27conversation with you. Um again I have

4:53:29some prompts that I can um share with

4:53:31you that perhaps help you with

4:53:36>> um so as an example you know if you look

4:53:38at our mission statement what outcomes

4:53:41for you must the FY28 budget protect or

4:53:44improve for residents first. Um and then

4:53:47we had to explain our budget philosophy

4:53:49in one sentence to the public tomorrow.

4:53:52What would it necessarily say we're not

4:53:54going to do this tomorrow but that sort

4:53:55of idea. Um again

4:53:58values should explicitly shape the FY28

4:54:02budget. And I know we have town values,

4:54:03but this would be more along the lines

4:54:05of reliability of core services, equity,

4:54:08fiscal resilience, transparency,

4:54:11innovation, other ideas along those

4:54:13lines.

4:54:15Um, and then again for for you all some

4:54:19prompts around service outcomes. What

4:54:21resident facing outcomes are

4:54:22non-negotiable to hold steady or improve

4:54:25and why? Where can we slower improvement

4:54:28or defer enhancements without harming

4:54:30outcomes. What minimum service levels

4:54:33will we not go below sort of what's your

4:54:36floor commitment if you will for FY2028?

4:54:42>> Did you share that list with us?

4:54:45>> I did not. I

4:54:46>> can get it up on the

4:54:48>> up there.

4:54:49>> Yeah. Let me uh let me send this to

4:54:56>> Can we word cloud our answers?

4:54:59>> Word cloud our answers.

4:55:01>> Yeah, sticky notes over here.

4:55:04>> I know. Oh, I noticed

4:55:04>> this.

4:55:15>> Yes, that's

4:55:19all.

4:55:29I just share one quick thing that I

4:55:31think we've already come to terms with

4:55:33when it comes to parks and w fees. We

4:55:36are willing to charge more for non

4:55:40Morrisville residents a little bit

4:55:42extra. So I've been getting some

4:55:43feedback from car people. I'm like that

4:55:45was our decision and our taxpayers get

4:55:48the fee and non- taxpayers get a little

4:55:50bit more. So I think that's been a

4:55:53positive thing for our town. Gives us a

4:55:56little bit more revenue, makes our

4:55:58services a little bit more attractive to

4:56:00our residents, a little less attractive

4:56:02to others. And capacity. Um, we get a

4:56:05little less revenue because we're not

4:56:07getting more money from the people, but

4:56:10I think we're serving our residents

4:56:11well.

4:56:14>> To be fair, do the same.

4:56:16>> They do.

4:56:18>> We have been doing it for a while. I'm

4:56:20sorry.

4:56:22>> Not 50%.

4:56:23>> No, I agree. I agree. So the the rate

4:56:26that we charge is significantly more

4:56:30>> not necessarily it depends on the

4:56:32service. I mean like to join one of

4:56:34their softball leagues. We don't have

4:56:36softball adult softball here in

4:56:38Morrisville to join one of their adult

4:56:40softball leagues. They have there's the

4:56:42same um you know residents first and

4:56:45then non-resident 24 hours later. And

4:56:48there's also a higher price for

4:56:50non-residents which which is fine you

4:56:53know. I don't I if for the male softball

4:56:57weeks at least it's not 50%. But it's I

4:57:01mean it's higher for sure.

4:57:04>> So I wasn't aware it was 50% more.

4:57:08>> Are we talking we talking

4:57:12>> we're we're 40% differential

4:57:13>> 40%. I apologize. I just wanted to throw

4:57:15out there that that was something we've

4:57:17[snorts] already had in common a

4:57:19discussion about budget philosophy.

4:57:22TJ, we're talking about this related

4:57:26start.

4:57:33>> Do we know do we know the average

4:57:35differential in fees and carry for

4:57:38non-residents?

4:57:39Um I don't know. Okay, that'd be great.

4:57:42Just

4:57:44>> right. I mean if it's you know versus

4:57:48140 that's a significant

4:57:52>> well depending on depending on the

4:57:53activity like understanding that if the

4:57:57year of softball is $200 a 40%

4:58:01differential is $80 if it's 100 then the

4:58:0540% differential is only $40. Like I

4:58:08think that and if it's like a $30 class

4:58:11>> 25 is not that big of a deal when you're

4:58:15talking

4:58:17>> if it's 10 versus 40

4:58:19>> we might be incurring some bad feeling

4:58:21>> right

4:58:22>> J it's not uncommon to see the 50%

4:58:25differential in amongst towns for

4:58:28resident versus non-resident that is not

4:58:30uncommon matter of fact it's higher in

4:58:32some places

4:58:35>> and ours is 40%.

4:58:37>> It's 40% for programs. Some of our

4:58:39facilities are 50%. But pro program

4:58:43based is 40%. Except for the camp that

4:58:46um we voted y'all voted on camp

4:58:49Cedarport. It's less. But the Oh, I'm

4:58:52sorry. No, the different the res

4:58:54non-resident differential still 40%.

4:59:05Yeah, that's 50% right.

4:59:10>> The obvious, but you know, our residents

4:59:12are paying taxes that support these

4:59:14programs.

4:59:16>> And also, I mean, how like I understand

4:59:18like in the aquatics and fitness center

4:59:20or the senior center, yes, there's a ton

4:59:22of crossover, but I don't think there's

4:59:24a ton of crossover in like carrying

4:59:26people trying to reserve more parks,

4:59:28park shelters, you know. So, I think

4:59:30it's more of an issue in some areas than

4:59:33others.

4:59:35>> Okay. Can we get to your question? I

4:59:37like your question.

4:59:38>> Sure.

4:59:40>> So, I will give you I mean looking at

4:59:42the mission, what outcomes must the 2028

4:59:44budget protect or improve for residents

4:59:47first?

4:59:48>> For me, safety is a non-negotiable.

4:59:52I think if people aren't safe in

4:59:54Morrisville and by that I mean

4:59:56physically safe obviously you know

4:59:58police fire adequately provided for but

5:00:01also you know do they feel safe here do

5:00:03we have a culture of safety do we it to

5:00:07me that's all important physical

5:00:09emotional

5:00:11safety for me is is emotional

5:00:16>> I would like to keep our nationally

5:00:19status

5:00:23public,

5:00:25you know, all of the national.

5:00:48So that's interesting Vicki because the

5:00:51national accreditation it's it's a it's

5:00:55an outcome rather than a like a because

5:00:59when you build a service level to a

5:01:01certain point you achieve a national

5:01:03accreditation like you I think we're

5:01:06kind of saying the same thing

5:01:07>> my point is achieved it

5:01:10>> let's keep it building

5:01:15sometimes

5:01:17ratio

5:01:19And so we have to rejust

5:01:24>> rating.

5:01:25>> Oh yes, bonding.

5:01:28>> Yeah,

5:01:30>> that's a good

5:01:47One thing I would say we send those

5:01:49surveys you know and every time the

5:01:52transportation comes number one followed

5:01:54by uh public safety uh and those kind of

5:01:58things but

5:02:01it's

5:02:04how can we dig more deeper or get better

5:02:07data you know because all want to have

5:02:10datadriven decisions on that um so

5:02:13>> so I think part of that and we alluded

5:02:16to it earlier

5:02:17I keep referring to the council. I don't

5:02:18know others have said this. It's just

5:02:19one I remember saying that you know

5:02:22change the way we survey um and also

5:02:24change the way we ask for the

5:02:26information to not just be a survey. So

5:02:29within the survey, I think part of that

5:02:31is to not ask the question, do you want

5:02:33what do you want to see improved, but

5:02:35what would you like to see improved? Be

5:02:37as specific as you can and are you

5:02:39willing to consider, you know, for

5:02:41example, a tax increase to do that. And

5:02:43again, we want to learn that carefully.

5:02:45So I don't want to go into it suggesting

5:02:46we're automatically doing the tax

5:02:48increase. We get that, but there's a way

5:02:49to do that. So I think you asked

5:02:51different questions, more detailed

5:02:53questions, but you also asked the, you

5:02:55know, are you willing to increase taxes

5:02:57for transportation? Are you willing to

5:03:00prioritize transportation over public

5:03:02safety? You know, there there's ways

5:03:04that we can get you, I think, better

5:03:06information. And then there's also this

5:03:08opportunity to do a town hall meeting

5:03:11and let people just converse with you

5:03:13and just hear that feedback. I think

5:03:15part of that goes back to budgettopia or

5:03:18budget topolis about whatever

5:03:20whatever exercise you want to go through

5:03:22um to do that and look at that and I

5:03:24think honestly

5:03:27surprise for our leadership team but we

5:03:29do leadership team plus you know several

5:03:31times a year and that's about 45 of our

5:03:33supervisors one of the things we may do

5:03:34with them is watchtopia let them

5:03:36appreciate you know different person

5:03:38from different departments together at a

5:03:40table and you all figure it out it'll be

5:03:43entertaining if nothing else but I think

5:03:45it's a good exercise but doing that with

5:03:47residents with businesses with

5:03:49stakeholders as is a way to do that.

5:03:51>> Yeah. No, the only reason I say that is

5:03:54philosophically as public safety is

5:03:56number one, but when you're taking a

5:03:58survey, you get a different theme out of

5:04:00it as a overall, but we have to ensure

5:04:03that the data is correct that

5:04:05>> 25 people that take the problem that's

5:04:10sample size is so small.

5:04:11>> Yeah.

5:04:13That's

5:04:14>> and that's

5:04:15>> usually it's the same people who

5:04:18>> only only the tr only the people who

5:04:20don't like it will

5:04:21>> welcome to being elected official

5:04:24>> welcome by the way everybody hates you

5:04:28[clears throat]

5:04:28>> everybody hates you by the way

5:04:30>> that's right [laughter]

5:04:37next

5:04:40after we defend this can

5:04:49>> [clears throat]

5:04:50>> So to that end, I'd like our theme to be

5:04:52we urge you or something like that to

5:04:55engage them to such the point that we're

5:04:58improving the two-way communication.

5:05:01If that's our goal, given this is going

5:05:04to be a really challenging budget.

5:05:07As long as they know that they've been

5:05:08heard,

5:05:10I think that'll be an important thing.

5:05:12for everyone to

5:05:14support this budget going forward

5:05:16knowing that they influenced it. Um

5:05:19because sometimes maybe they don't uh

5:05:24and they feel it's too late.

5:05:28>> Just wanted to offer a comment as well.

5:05:30So one of the things we've talked about

5:05:33uh in our department and and John and I

5:05:35have talked about too is future

5:05:37opportunities for statistically

5:05:39significant surveys. Um, that means not

5:05:42something we would be able to do in

5:05:44house because we would have to shop that

5:05:46out. Um, but that means you would get a

5:05:49statistically representative sample size

5:05:51of the town community because we would

5:05:54have to work with a consultant or a

5:05:56vendor. Um, they would work with us. We

5:05:59would develop questions. they can

5:06:01potentially pose some questions, but we

5:06:04would have opportunity to to ask those

5:06:06pointed, specific, really thoughtful

5:06:08questions that you've all sort of

5:06:10discussed today and and and in the in

5:06:12the past as well. Um, and then that

5:06:17would go to every resident on record in

5:06:20Morrisville and it could go in a variety

5:06:21of ways. They would have the opportunity

5:06:24to follow up. So, essentially, you would

5:06:27really work, they would help us work

5:06:30towards getting a statistically

5:06:32representative

5:06:34response size. Again, it's a future

5:06:37opportunity. There is a cost involved.

5:06:40Um, but it's it's something we can work

5:06:43towards. Uh, just something for you all

5:06:45to keep in mind.

5:06:47>> When is the last time we did the

5:06:48national community?

5:06:50>> We're probably a year overdue, but you

5:06:52recall we did discuss that during the

5:06:54FY27 budget and it did not make it to be

5:06:57funed. $ 35,000.

5:07:00>> There's there's some some different

5:07:02options, but the the allin with a couple

5:07:05of additional tools was about 30,000.

5:07:08>> So, to that end, I never really felt

5:07:11that was very valuable in that we're

5:07:13always in the 95 to 97%.

5:07:16That doesn't change. So, I'd almost want

5:07:18to do our own survey

5:07:21and administer ourselves. Um, all their

5:07:24stuff is really generic and it's pretty

5:07:27pretty much always the same.

5:07:29>> Well, there's two pieces that I think

5:07:30you can customize some questions on

5:07:32whether we can customize the number or

5:07:33not. That that may not be enough. It

5:07:36does give you that demographic

5:07:38comparison data to similarly situated,

5:07:40you know, municipalities, cities, towns.

5:07:42There's some balance to that. I'm sure

5:07:44there is somebody we can work with that

5:07:47can help us with some guidance on what's

5:07:49the most effective way to do our own

5:07:51community survey to get it to everybody

5:07:54to enhance responses. But there's work

5:07:57that can be done there.

5:08:03>> Yeah. They do what they do.

5:08:04>> We can we don't get we get very very

5:08:07limited response from the HOA. You know,

5:08:09we send newsletters. I mean, you know,

5:08:11we invite, for example, I've invited

5:08:13them since I was a town manager to come

5:08:15and speak at any HOA.

5:08:17>> Got one response.

5:08:19>> The resident managers

5:08:21>> are gatekeepers.

5:08:22>> Yes.

5:08:23>> And I live

5:08:26I heard nothing

5:08:49>> right

5:08:50>> last week.

5:09:02But to make that consistent and ask the

5:09:05same questions of those families would

5:09:07be important. So the data matters.

5:09:11>> So I mean that's a start

5:09:13>> right all of it. I know we're jumping

5:09:15ahead because this is on the agenda

5:09:17later, but

5:09:19I'm proposep

5:09:22focus group and I know that some of you

5:09:25are not familiar with something like

5:09:26bluebonet

5:09:31of individuals that were nominated to

5:09:33participate in a workshop and there were

5:09:35several meetings

5:09:38where they asked inepth questions. They

5:09:41were allowed to provide feedback and

5:09:46problem solve.

5:09:52But we need more not

5:09:57as much but real thoughtful

5:10:01what is really important to you and

5:10:04sometimes our surveys are just so high

5:10:06level we're not really getting that

5:10:08level of understanding. You don't have

5:10:10to do everybody but just have some

5:10:12really thoughtprovoking questions to

5:10:16small group.

5:10:19>> Yeah. I I would ask uh I would put town

5:10:22connectivity

5:10:23because there's so many you know

5:10:25especially the high school coming uh the

5:10:27Davis drive there's you know we have to

5:10:30wait and wait and wait for DOT whenever

5:10:32they do but there's certain areas that

5:10:35really need to go from one side to the

5:10:37other side.

5:10:40Um

5:10:42I was going to throw in uh I guess

5:10:43priorities um sustainability initiatives

5:10:47the Morrisville environments environment

5:10:49and stormwater committee is any

5:10:50indicator that's uh what I understand to

5:10:52be the only one that's consistently full

5:10:57>> the only one that's consistently full

5:10:59and active and has a lot of membership.

5:11:12And I also wanted to share um

5:11:16that one sentence. Uh

5:11:19my an idea that I had um which can be

5:11:24tied to the we heard you the the more

5:11:26you know the community engagement sort

5:11:28of things um but protecting the future.

5:11:31Um, right, we're at a point, we're kind

5:11:32of at a junction, right, where we're h

5:11:34where we're having this retreat. We're

5:11:36talking about what does the future um

5:11:38hold. So, setting ourselves up for

5:11:40success on that front to um and the

5:11:44community engagement, I'd say, is part

5:11:45of that. And, um, I know I really like

5:11:49the whole strong town stuff, but, uh,

5:11:50embracing some of those principles with

5:11:52regards to community engagement. There's

5:11:53a lot of kind of guidance that they have

5:11:56on how to do that. um

5:11:59that can also be incorporated as well. I

5:12:01can provide more information on that at

5:12:03a later time. I don't have that prepared

5:12:04for today.

5:12:05>> We should do a book club on that book.

5:12:07What's

5:12:09>> the council?

5:12:10>> We've always been thought of as a

5:12:12crossroads village. So maybe crossroads

5:12:14next to that because you mentioned

5:12:16crossroads. We are at a crossroads.

5:12:18>> Yeah.

5:12:20>> So personnel

5:12:23um because I know in one of your

5:12:27that survey we had to fill out. One of

5:12:28the questions said, you know, are you

5:12:30interested in reduction in force? And my

5:12:34answer is no. I'm not looking. So, I

5:12:36want to make sure and I've said this

5:12:38before when you know for me when when we

5:12:42make the decision to hire personnel I or

5:12:46add a full-time position or any position

5:12:48just to add a position it, you know, for

5:12:51me it's that position is going to be

5:12:52here for the long term. So,

5:12:57So this is absolutely not about the tax

5:12:59rate. But I do want to say fiscal

5:13:01responsibility is a priority is a

5:13:05priority is a priority is a making sure

5:13:09that we as a council understand the

5:13:12income the outgo and that we are it's

5:13:16down to us whether we're using what we

5:13:18have in the most effective manner.

5:13:28priorities.

5:13:31>> Let me ask you this. Um, one of the

5:13:33questions we had was about potentially

5:13:35freezing salaries. I'd be interested if

5:13:38there's any initial thoughts around

5:13:40that. Understanding no decisions. We

5:13:42won't know what we need or need to do,

5:13:44but again, for us going in, that's

5:13:46that's something that will help us. So,

5:13:48I've heard no ri if um what about the

5:13:51possibility of either freezing positions

5:13:54as they open or about um freezing

5:13:58salaries in terms of no merit

5:14:00potentially no

5:14:02>> I'm a no on that

5:14:04>> I'm a no

5:14:05>> yeah I think but one thing

5:14:15>> okay that's different

5:14:18>> so that's within the range of a race so

5:14:20that's a

5:14:24how it's calculated because what we've

5:14:26done in the past is multip

5:14:50performance

5:14:53service but lessen

5:14:59>> potentially reduce

5:15:01the simplest.

5:15:03>> No, it's not she's not saying reduce

5:15:04merit. It's saying like have a

5:15:06realistic, you know, uh kind of number

5:15:10after you judge everything.

5:15:25So this year we did 1% cola. We've

5:15:27traditionally done two for at least the

5:15:30seven years I've been here. So we went

5:15:32down to 1% and then we did three, four

5:15:35and a half and six for merit of meets

5:15:38exceeds and far exceeds expectations.

5:15:42So

5:15:44I'm a little confused on the

5:15:46reduce the

5:15:46>> No, no. What she's meaning is like

5:15:51if you're giving a range, what is the

5:15:52range you said?

5:15:53>> Three, four and a half and six.

5:15:55>> Okay. For so she means to say okay the

5:15:58highest gets only four

5:16:00>> like

5:16:01the level of

5:16:02>> the level of [clears throat] reduce the

5:16:05margin

5:16:05>> margin. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, something

5:16:07like that.

5:16:07>> Yeah, reduce the marginal merit

5:16:09increase.

5:16:10>> Well, and also we had talked about I

5:16:12don't know how it's going. be interested

5:16:13in an update. But we had talked about

5:16:15the the fact that if

5:16:19nobody far exceeds year after year after

5:16:22year, you know, like we're gonna we're

5:16:24going to like rightsize how we evaluate

5:16:27people because if you're doing your job

5:16:29and doing great at it, that's that's

5:16:31meeting expectations. Like we expect you

5:16:33to do your job and be good at it. That's

5:16:36why we hired you.

5:16:38So, I'd be interested to know how that's

5:16:39going because I know

5:16:40>> and I have had some conversations. SLT

5:16:43and David and I have had some

5:16:44conversations. Again, David had a prior

5:16:46commitment couldn't be here today. Um,

5:16:48so we have talked about that. There's a

5:16:50couple of ways to do that. One is

5:16:51through training um which is challenging

5:16:54because some people just and this is not

5:16:56again I want to say not a Morrisville

5:16:57thing. This this happens a lot of other

5:16:59places. So part of that is training and

5:17:02helping our supervisors, particularly

5:17:04our frontline supervisors, appreciate,

5:17:07you know, what is more clearly defined

5:17:10the definition of meets and exceeds and

5:17:12far exceeds. And so part of that is the

5:17:14training component. Uh part of that is

5:17:17the language in the tool um and not

5:17:20making it seem or or the perspective

5:17:23being that it's easy to reach parc

5:17:27should be just shy of walking on water.

5:17:30Um and we we have clearly shifted you

5:17:33know to that more than we should have or

5:17:36want to anyway. So it's really two

5:17:38pieces of that. one is the tool and then

5:17:40the other is

5:17:42>> so one I know um this will be not a

5:17:49popular topic but I want to bring it up.

5:17:53City of Rally has changed the benefits

5:17:58of the new employees who are coming in.

5:18:01So I would like to see how that fits

5:18:05here because I was talking to Jan

5:18:0830 minutes and I

5:18:138 to10 million dollars on the savings

5:18:15that are coming and she said the manager

5:18:18themselves came and gave that kind of a

5:18:21feedback saying let's do it. So

5:18:25basically I don't know what all is I

5:18:28think some kind of benefits right or

5:18:30retirement benefits or something they

5:18:32kind of said no longer they will be

5:18:34giving for new employees.

5:18:37had a big hole to fill. That was kind of

5:18:38an emergency.

5:18:40>> No, no, no. That is like basically they

5:18:44said going forward this because she's a

5:18:46state treasurer. She said the amount of

5:18:48money and the liabilities and all those

5:18:50things is way too high and uh many of

5:18:54the corporate companies I used to work

5:18:56for AT&T. I used to get pension and I

5:18:59was the only like very few people IBM

5:19:01used to give and they cut it off you

5:19:03know everywhere it's getting cut off.

5:19:05>> So uh

5:19:07So a lot of that is out not a lot a

5:19:09decent amount of that is out of our

5:19:10control because we belong to the North

5:19:12Carolina retirement system and so

5:19:14they're making decisions in terms of

5:19:17what is going into that and then they're

5:19:19also generally requiring you know the 5%

5:19:23that goes into uh to their retirement

5:19:25through I think it's currently

5:19:26credential or it changes somebody

5:19:32>> so I think we can look you can look at

5:19:34primarily health insurance benefits,

5:19:37>> something like that. I'm not sure about

5:19:39what it is, but um I didn't go. She

5:19:43said, "Let's sit down and I'll explain

5:19:45to you

5:19:46>> the rally mirror."

5:19:48>> So, Janica,

5:19:50>> huh?

5:19:51>> Yeah, they may offer different

5:19:52additional benefit. So, so that's the

5:19:54thing I I don't want to get into that

5:19:56because I want to understand before I

5:19:58say any word into it. But that was a

5:20:00significant Kerry is trying to do that

5:20:03because they are hiring there all these

5:20:0630 40 people or almost 80 people that

5:20:09are coming in. They started talking

5:20:11about it. Um so I just want to

5:20:16whoever it is right now is BAU. You

5:20:19know,

5:20:19>> I just want to put this out there that

5:20:21I'm not I don't want to make any changes

5:20:24to what we do for our staff that I

5:20:29wouldn't want made to me. Okay. So, like

5:20:33if Cisco, admittedly Cisco's benefits

5:20:35are goldplated, but if they tried to

5:20:38reduce my health benefits, that to me is

5:20:41that's a material change in someone's in

5:20:45someone's life is I'm I'm not interested

5:20:49in looking at anything like

5:20:50>> I think we're talking about

5:20:51>> so they're two different things

5:20:52>> similar but related. Yeah. So I don't

5:20:54think we would suggest I don't any

5:20:55suggestion to change anything but I hear

5:20:57you on current benefits because we we

5:20:59are very generous with our medical

5:21:01benefits. Our employees pay nothing for

5:21:03their benefits. We have consistently at

5:21:06least the last several years taken

5:21:07advantage of our healthc care reserve to

5:21:10not charge employees an increase even if

5:21:12they're covering children and or family.

5:21:15Um so those are things to look at

5:21:16because There's certainly a lot of money

5:21:19um that goes into that as well in terms

5:21:22of what benefits we provide to

5:21:23employees. That would include council to

5:21:25some extent. We provide a very valuable

5:21:27benefit to several council members in

5:21:29terms of health insurance. Um so there's

5:21:32there's all the things that we can

5:21:34certainly discuss. What you know where I

5:21:36was going with that was I do pay more

5:21:39because of the fact that I insured

5:21:41myself, my children, my husband. You

5:21:43know, I I mean, they you know, we've had

5:21:46several years of cost of living freeze.

5:21:49It sucks, but you know,

5:21:52it was necessary at the time. I I you

5:21:56know, so I think that I mean, I don't I

5:21:59feel like, you know, it's easy to sit in

5:22:01a room and say this would save us a lot

5:22:03of money, but I just, you know, I I

5:22:06don't want to I want us to look at the

5:22:09areas that have the least impact. If

5:22:13we're going to if we're going to do

5:22:14anything regarding employees, I want us

5:22:16to look at the areas where the impact

5:22:18won't be as great.

5:22:20>> Then the other piece back to your point,

5:22:21Satisha, and I'll run over to you. Um,

5:22:24you know,

5:22:26quite honestly, we anticipate that our

5:22:29COBRA money, excuse me, not our Cobra,

5:22:31our OpEd money or other post-employment

5:22:34benefits potentially reduces over time

5:22:36because there are fewer and fewer people

5:22:38coming into this that are going to stay

5:22:4030 years and retire from, you know, the

5:22:42town of Morrisville. It's just not the

5:22:44trend right now.

5:22:45>> Brandon, I have zero knowledge on what

5:22:48it is for Morrisville if you use the

5:22:51rally template. So, I have no clue. So

5:22:53that's one thing to just explore and

5:22:56see.

5:22:58That's all. That's the thing.

5:22:59>> Yeah.

5:23:07>> Yes.

5:23:11>> Well, there's technically five levels.

5:23:13There's there's fails to meet, needs

5:23:15improvement, needs, exceeds, and far

5:23:17exceeds.

5:23:18>> So

5:23:22you

5:23:34anybody

5:23:35anything other than

5:23:45>> I require commentary on all whe

5:23:50everybody has to

5:23:53We also require our employees to do a

5:23:55self evaluation. They not score

5:23:57themselves, but they have to fill out,

5:23:59you know, what they think they've done

5:24:00well, why they think they, you know, an

5:24:02area might need to improve. Obviously,

5:24:04don't quite as much of that as we get

5:24:07wonderful, but that's

5:24:11>> And you review and approve all ones and

5:24:14all. So anyone that fails expectations

5:24:17or far exceeds expectations

5:24:18>> actually one's Tuesday one's Tuesday if

5:24:21anyone fails to meet which is rare

5:24:24because quite honestly if you failed to

5:24:26meet over the course of a year you're

5:24:27probably not good you're going to get

5:24:28the opportunity to be successful

5:24:30somewhere else um if you're a two and

5:24:32need improvement I'm going to review

5:24:34that and then if you're a five or five

5:24:36C's I'm going to review that now when I

5:24:38do that and same thing for supervisors

5:24:41they don't review it necessarily to

5:24:43agree or disagree Unless there's just a

5:24:45blatant, you know, somebody said Liz

5:24:47walks on water and we know Liz had four

5:24:49disciplinary actions this year, right?

5:24:51But outside of that, it's not to

5:24:53question the narrative. It's not to

5:24:57question the score, but it is to make

5:24:58sure that the narrative is provided

5:25:00supports the score. So when I look at a

5:25:03five, I'm not trying to decide if if you

5:25:06know Ann got the five, do I really think

5:25:08she was a five this year? Because in

5:25:10some of those cases, I don't work with

5:25:12these folks. I mean front line employees

5:25:14I certainly know them. I see them but I

5:25:16don't know them to evaluate them. So

5:25:18what I'm looking at instead is what's

5:25:20the narrative and does it justify that

5:25:23and consistently farce seated

5:25:25expectations over the course of year

5:25:29back two things just to point out that

5:25:31thank you actually started captic

5:25:38maybe we do have some influence over

5:25:39that's the other postenefits

5:25:42and

5:25:43We don't have them all yet, but we do

5:25:44have a good amount. And then secondly,

5:25:48we track all county towns of types of

5:25:53merit. What's the average? So I want to

5:25:56make sure

5:25:58that data

5:26:00might be very helpful.

5:26:05>> I would say um

5:26:07we're going to continue to make sure

5:26:09that we're staying aligned with market

5:26:11and every two or three years we're doing

5:26:13a third or a half or people. I don't

5:26:16want to get too far out of line. I don't

5:26:18want to feel that people are going to

5:26:19jump to another municipality for a

5:26:21couple of thousand dollars. I know that

5:26:23happens in the public safety for a

5:26:24certain extent and it's a bit of an arms

5:26:26race in that space unfortunately um

5:26:29despite everyone trying to be

5:26:30collaborative and helpful. So um I just

5:26:34want to I think I would generally

5:26:36support moving the merit classes down

5:26:40just a little bit.

5:26:41seems pretty high in any case given the

5:26:44environment

5:26:46but I just don't want to get too far out

5:26:47of whack in so far as then we're going

5:26:49to have a big chunk of money that we

5:26:50have to get people back to where they

5:26:52should be in the market. Um so I

5:26:55understand that the need to save some

5:26:57funds now but if it's just going to be

5:27:00postponing that and

5:27:03maybe lose some good people because of

5:27:05it that's just my concern. So

5:27:08unfortunately the

5:27:10the structure of way county is such that

5:27:13people will move pretty quickly for just

5:27:15a few thousand dollars because they can.

5:27:17Um, so I'd rather keep the people and

5:27:20maybe pay a little bit more than we

5:27:22would if we really were right on the

5:27:24razor's edge. Um, but in saying that,

5:27:27I'd be willing to move down just a

5:27:29little bit and see if that has a really

5:27:30negative effect.

5:27:32>> So, I appreciate that, but let us not

5:27:35forget that merit is based on

5:27:37performance and adjust

5:27:41where your job is compensated based on

5:27:44the demand.

5:27:48We want people that are given the tools

5:27:52to succeed in the town and are able to

5:27:54perform to the best of their ability

5:27:58they can reden.

5:28:09So it's it's just I have faith that they

5:28:14would still perform

5:28:16as they are able but the market

5:28:20adjustment is something that we don't

5:28:22control necessarily

5:28:24it's a regional assessment you read my

5:28:27mind so there's certainly some

5:28:29relationship there I can't can't tell

5:28:31you there's no relationship but what I

5:28:32would tell you is that again merit is

5:28:34about individual performance and it

5:28:36dictates where within the range you are

5:28:39when we do pay in class, we're not

5:28:40looking at individual employees. We're

5:28:42looking at jobs. So, we're looking at,

5:28:45you know, what is the starting pay for a

5:28:46firefighter? What is the starting pay

5:28:48for a police officer or a finance

5:28:50specialist or whatever that position may

5:28:52be going to every other year um is going

5:28:55to help us because we're less likely to

5:28:57fall behind if we look at it at least

5:28:59once every two years. And again, with

5:29:01public safety, we've done this for a

5:29:02number of years now. We always look at

5:29:05starting pay for both firefighters and

5:29:08police because that is where the true

5:29:09arms race is. That's a fair assessment.

5:29:12Um you know other departments we

5:29:13certainly need to stay competitive but

5:29:15other departments aren't going you know

5:29:17crazy crazy exact aren't making

5:29:20significant changes on a regular basis

5:29:22as much as public safety. Um and so the

5:29:25chief has made me very very very aware

5:29:28um that after what other pounds have

5:29:30done most recently that we may below

5:29:34where we want to be to remain

5:29:35competitive. You know, we've already

5:29:36made that switch from previously the

5:29:39goal is to be at 100% of market with our

5:29:42starting pay and we've reduced that to

5:29:44make sure we're at 95% of market with

5:29:47our starting pay and trying to be

5:29:49competitive but also financially

5:29:51responsible. So we will continue to look

5:29:54at every department now every other year

5:29:56and there may be times when we come need

5:29:58to come to you off schedule to say hey

5:30:01something has happened and we are really

5:30:03you know it's not about one it's not

5:30:04about us compared to carry one person or

5:30:07just apex but when you look at your

5:30:09competitors and you're not at 95% you're

5:30:12you know even below perhaps at 90% we

5:30:15need to have that conversation about

5:30:17maintaining that component of it but

5:30:20again doesn't directly tie to merit

5:30:22because those individuals stay within

5:30:23that range.

5:30:28>> So, with the um with the cola and the

5:30:31merit, um I was just

5:30:34maybe trying to wrap my head around um

5:30:38something spec specific and tell me if

5:30:40I'm I'm off base on this, but you have a

5:30:44certain class that um starting salary,

5:30:48whatever it may be, you know, market

5:30:50rate, that sort of thing. you got that

5:30:52at at a particular level and the next

5:30:55year that level is probably a little bit

5:30:58higher.

5:30:59>> Um, with the merit

5:31:02is that a person comes in let's let's

5:31:06just say like you know I don't know

5:31:07three years you'd have the cola is is

5:31:09it's at this level and then it becomes

5:31:11this then it becomes this right over

5:31:13over three years essentially um with the

5:31:16merit is it such that

5:31:21We're starting at cola and then adding

5:31:23the merit on top of that such that

5:31:27a person at the um you know the next

5:31:30year's cola it includes last year's

5:31:33merit.

5:31:34>> Correct.

5:31:35>> Okay.

5:31:35>> Yeah. Compound year to year. Compound.

5:31:37We also we also compound

5:31:39>> um within a year. So for example, if um

5:31:44you were going to get 1% COLA and then

5:31:46you were going to get 3% merit and There

5:31:49was also an adjustment. Um, let's say a

5:31:52paid in class that we're not really

5:31:53doing right now, but you got another two

5:31:55and a half% out of that. We would take

5:31:57your current salary, add the 1% to it,

5:32:00add the two and a half% to that or the

5:32:023% to that, and then the other two and a

5:32:04half% to that. Again, we've always tried

5:32:06to be the most beneficial to the

5:32:08employee that we can. And that's good

5:32:10for, you know, from a morale standpoint

5:32:13or or appreciative standpoint, but it

5:32:16also has helped us stay within market a

5:32:18little bit more. And again, those are

5:32:20not huge changes, but they're small

5:32:22changes that mean something to the staff

5:32:24and help us stay in market.

5:32:26>> Is there a

5:32:30decision to be made with regards to um

5:32:33compounding versus not compounding? Like

5:32:36starting at the cola

5:32:39and whatever the next cola is, the the

5:32:42merit on top of that instead of

5:32:45>> the compounding merits over time, if

5:32:48that makes sense.

5:32:48>> Well, not not so much over time because

5:32:50that merit becomes part of your base

5:32:52salary.

5:32:53>> So, that's not a one-time award and then

5:32:55it goes away. That's how that's how

5:32:57really the majority of our staff move

5:32:59through that range over the course of

5:33:02their career. Um, now again, there's

5:33:04always opportunities for, you know,

5:33:06promotion, you know, for example, within

5:33:08the You start as a firefighter, you can

5:33:10move to a master firefighter. Um, that's

5:33:14promotionish,

5:33:16>> but then you promote to engineer, you

5:33:18promote to captain. Same thing in the

5:33:20police department. We now have something

5:33:22similar in the planning department and

5:33:24in other departments with career ladders

5:33:26where you can advance because you obtain

5:33:29certain other additional trainings or

5:33:31degree or things like that. Again, both

5:33:33fire and police requirements for that.

5:33:35None of this is just be here long enough

5:33:37and we're going to give you money for

5:33:38being here. But we are giving um you

5:33:41know we are recognizing service. We're

5:33:43recognizing achievement. We're

5:33:44recognizing their ability to better

5:33:46contribute to the organization.

5:33:48>> But there does seem to be a disparity

5:33:51depending on when a person comes in

5:33:54because if a person comes in at a their

5:33:57first few years is that a um I guess a

5:34:00reduced kind of cola merit that sort of

5:34:03thing. Um whereas else coming in, you

5:34:06know, kind of at the same level that

5:34:08that market rate has been that the pay

5:34:11that this one person is making is maybe

5:34:13less than what the um you know, a new

5:34:17person coming in.

5:34:18>> So, we typically do not allow someone

5:34:21who is similar who is situated the same

5:34:24i.e. years of experience or anything. So

5:34:26if a if a new firefighter um is hired

5:34:30this year at 58ish

5:34:34>> 54ish

5:34:35>> 54

5:34:39>> it's super fire super complicated. Um if

5:34:43you come in as a police officer at 60 58

5:34:46>> 63. So yeah, and then you know the

5:34:49following year you hire a new police

5:34:52officer. They're going to come in at 63

5:34:54if they have no experience, but they

5:34:56should be slightly behind the

5:34:57experienced officer because they would

5:34:58have picked up their cola and their

5:35:00merit.

5:35:00>> Sure.

5:35:01>> Now again, if the new police officer

5:35:03comes in and over the course of five

5:35:05years, he just performs better than the

5:35:07other police officer, he can certainly

5:35:08make more money than someone with more

5:35:11experience.

5:35:12>> Yeah. Is it worth mentioning what David

5:35:16put in place with the new spreadsheet to

5:35:17make sure we're accounting for

5:35:18experience and being fair to everybody?

5:35:21>> So, we again David has really helped us

5:35:23with some things. So, one of the things

5:35:25we've done is in terms of bringing

5:35:26people in, you know, in the past, I

5:35:28think we really looked at well, you

5:35:30know, who are they and what are they

5:35:32asking for and how does that compare to

5:35:33the people we currently employ, which is

5:35:36not a bad method, but it's not a solid

5:35:38method. So what we use now is we have a

5:35:41a compensation worksheet that says okay

5:35:43here's the starting salary and if you

5:35:46have experience in the same sort of work

5:35:48then you get 2% per year of that same

5:35:52experience work. If you've done some

5:35:54work that maybe helped prepare you for

5:35:56that but it's really not the same work

5:35:57then maybe you get 1% for that year. It

5:36:00could be as little as a quarter of it.

5:36:02It could be a half a percent for a given

5:36:04year of experience. So then that is

5:36:06added up and that gives us a here's what

5:36:08you should offer this person. Now can

5:36:11they ask for more? They can ask for more

5:36:13but we're trying to stick pretty close

5:36:15to what that offer is because that helps

5:36:17us stay at what market should be because

5:36:19of course people are going to ask for

5:36:20whatever they want to ask for. But what

5:36:23we're finding in our our limited use

5:36:25with this is that people typically take

5:36:26the offer even when they've asked for

5:36:28more particularly because we can explain

5:36:30to them here's how we got to your offer.

5:36:33It's not a well we thought this was good

5:36:34enough or well we didn't want you to

5:36:36make more than you know that be across

5:36:37the corner. It's a here's a structured

5:36:40explanation of this is why we're making

5:36:41you this offer. So that brings me to my

5:36:45next question to add on top of that is

5:36:48we always talk about the salaries you

5:36:51know but we don't talk about the total

5:36:53compensation package and uh can we get

5:36:57those numbers like you know take example

5:36:59of you know the police 563 but what is

5:37:04his total compensation package that he

5:37:06gets.

5:37:07>> Yeah. So we show that to you in the

5:37:09sense of when we add a new position you

5:37:11know we're showing you the total cost of

5:37:12that position. Um, in general, what you

5:37:15can do is take a salary and add about

5:37:1828% to it. Um, maybe a little closer to

5:37:2130 for for PD because they have a

5:37:23different um supplement that comes into

5:37:25that. But generally speaking, about 28%

5:37:28of an employes salary is going to add

5:37:30the added on in benefits. And then

5:37:32again, year one, it's a little different

5:37:34because it's also uniform cost,

5:37:36equipment cost, laptop cost. In a PD,

5:37:39it's a car. We talk about that. That's

5:37:41why we

5:37:42half year police officers because then

5:37:44the second year is about the same.

5:37:46>> So, but I'm just using PD that's 28. Our

5:37:50regular planning is not 28 because they

5:37:52don't have all these uniforms.

5:37:54>> Well, no, that's on top of the 28. I'm

5:37:56saying 28 is the is the average

5:37:58>> baseline. Okay.

5:37:59>> Yeah. And then when you add things on

5:38:01top of that,

5:38:05>> that adds up.

5:38:08So going back.

5:38:30>> Yeah, we can we can certainly bring you

5:38:32information on here's what we expect the

5:38:34cost to be if it's 345. Here's what the

5:38:38expected to be at the 3 and 12.

5:38:50>> Oh yeah. This is this is a piece of you

5:38:52know this is an independent decision. I

5:38:54think this is a where are we total in

5:38:56terms of potential expenditures and

5:38:58investment versus known revenues.

5:39:00Absolutely. So I think it's one piece of

5:39:02that puzzle that will bring you again.

5:39:04And I think we had a lot of success last

5:39:06year with showing you some options. And

5:39:08so I think we we will certainly do that

5:39:09again where you know option one might be

5:39:12the full merit in cola but we don't do X

5:39:15or option B might be we reduce merit it

5:39:18saves you this much and that allows us

5:39:20to do Y. Yeah, that that would be part

5:39:22of that conversation. This is just

5:39:24helpful because if you all sat here and

5:39:26said no way we're not going to reduce it

5:39:27at all. Then I'm not going to bring you

5:39:29you know that as an option. But I've

5:39:30heard that there's a willingness to hear

5:39:33about what might be at 345 versus 34 and

5:39:36a half is six and then I assume keeping

5:39:39a 1% cola because that's really the

5:39:41making sure everybody has something to

5:39:43try to keep up. I mean it's not

5:39:44sufficient to keep up with growth but

5:39:46it's a piece of the puzzle

5:39:56>> impact on everything else.

5:40:02>> So the the merit In itself, a decision

5:40:05on merit is not going to impact service

5:40:07level. Certainly not directly.

5:40:10>> I want to know what is

5:40:14>> Yeah, that's what it is.

5:40:23What would the

5:40:29>> Americ

5:40:46collectively make is what the impact

5:40:48becomes. I will show you what the

5:40:50monetary

5:40:52and then you will make the decision on

5:40:53whether or not you fund it and then that

5:40:55will determine through some of these

5:40:57options and discussion what any impact

5:40:59on services would be. But just not doing

5:41:03the full merit of three, four and a half

5:41:05and six should not impact service levels

5:41:08>> in the first

5:41:12change in people.

5:41:13>> I mean if it if it went long enough and

5:41:16others were doing more certainly at some

5:41:18point down the line you could argue

5:41:20people look at what we're paying and

5:41:22what others are paying but again that

5:41:24yes there is some opportunity that can

5:41:26happen

5:41:26>> yeah and and philosophically I feel

5:41:31as of

5:41:34they have done their work it's external

5:41:38factors that are beyond their control

5:41:40with the tax rate going down or high

5:41:44they should not be penalized unlike

5:41:46corporate you know is different is like

5:41:49we didn't do good. You know, the

5:41:51earnings were not there. It's it's

5:41:53definitely but certainly

5:41:56never flat, but at least something to

5:42:00say, okay, this is our appreciation.

5:42:03>> No, I agree. I would I would argue

5:42:04strongly against doing nothing. I think

5:42:06that that would absolutely send a not

5:42:09positive message. I understand that's

5:42:11not intentional, but that's just what

5:42:12would happen. But yeah, I think we

5:42:14should always do something. You know the

5:42:15question becomes again it's also where

5:42:17do we fit in what others are doing you

5:42:20know because at at three four and a half

5:42:22and six plus a percent propola we're

5:42:24very competitive with what other

5:42:26municipalities are doing in terms of

5:42:28salary increases on an annual basis so I

5:42:31think you know we have to look at that

5:42:33you have to look at that in the larger

5:42:34context of everything else that you're

5:42:36trying to do

5:42:37>> and and it's it's I understand that you

5:42:41have to compare but at the same time

5:42:42it's it's hard to compare because we was

5:42:45getting built up. There might be still

5:42:47growth in Holly Springs. There may be

5:42:48still growth in Epex or Kerry or

5:42:51something, you know, like we are pretty

5:42:53much capped out.

5:42:54>> Well, they have the revenues.

5:42:56>> Yeah, they have the that's a piece of

5:42:58the puzzle because if we're if we're

5:42:59giving top merit at 5% and somebody else

5:43:03is giving merit at seven or eight%,

5:43:05which nobody is.

5:43:07>> Yeah.

5:43:07>> That's impactful. That's impactful.

5:43:10That's impactful. That's impact. No.

5:43:14[clears throat] Do I think we're going

5:43:15to have an exodus? I don't think so.

5:43:17>> Yeah, I kind of doubt for a a percent or

5:43:20two a person will leave. I think that's

5:43:23no one is going to do that.

5:43:25>> Part of that is going to be is this a

5:43:26one-time adjustment or is this the new

5:43:29>> We don't know. We don't know.

5:43:30>> I understand that. I'm just factors. I'm

5:43:32sorry. Harrison, do you have your hand

5:43:34up?

5:43:34>> Um that was actually something that I

5:43:37was thinking about if we are approaching

5:43:38build out and having the titan develop a

5:43:40bit more. Um whereas these other

5:43:42communities are grow and they have the

5:43:44revenue um to to do a lot more. Yeah.

5:43:48What's the impact of that? But

5:43:52>> it's an impact in terms of probably the

5:43:54percentage of your budget that goes to

5:43:56personnel if if there is a time that

5:43:58comes that you that you

5:44:03might have already in there. I can't

5:44:05remember if I've asked this before seen

5:44:08this before, but we do the market

5:44:10adjustment. So the whole organization

5:44:13three year period goes to market

5:44:15adjustment. We do a third.

5:44:18>> Are other communities doing that too?

5:44:20>> Yes.

5:44:22>> Are they doing it like we're doing a

5:44:23third third?

5:44:25>> Very similar. Some are doing every

5:44:26other. Some are not doing quite that

5:44:28often. I think maybe some of your

5:44:30smaller communities, but most

5:44:31communities that we're comparable to are

5:44:33doing at least once every three years.

5:44:35>> Okay. because I I guess that that

5:44:37matters when we talk about looking at

5:44:39other communities um and comparing

5:44:42ourselves to them. I think it's

5:44:46important that's why I ask questions. If

5:44:48they're not doing market adjustments,

5:44:50maybe that's why their rates are the way

5:44:52they are or whatever. So, okay. Same

5:44:55thing with like our tax rate. when we

5:44:57look at our tax rate and we always

5:44:59compare well we don't others compare us

5:45:02and our tax rate to everybody else but

5:45:05they always fail to remember that um

5:45:08everybody almost everybody else um

5:45:10locally is paying a separate solid waste

5:45:15fee whereas ours is included in the tax

5:45:18rate so you know those apples to apples

5:45:20comparison are really important so

5:45:23that's why

5:45:24>> and just the other thing I'll remind you

5:45:25to keep in find is that in the context

5:45:27of paying class and market study. So up

5:45:31until this year um if you were the

5:45:33employee and your position went from a

5:45:36grade 28 to a grade 30 because that was

5:45:38what was competitive in the market you

5:45:40would get 2 and a half% per grade with a

5:45:44max of 5%. So we didn't you went up

5:45:46three grades which was rare but

5:45:47occasionally happened you got 5%. This

5:45:50year we did zero. So if you shifted, if

5:45:52your grade shifted, we did not give you

5:45:54an increase unless you fell out of grade

5:45:57because of it increasing. So again,

5:45:59that's but that's where we go back to.

5:46:01There were years that if we did a 2%

5:46:04COLA and it was a 6% for high performers

5:46:06and you went up two grades, you could

5:46:08get a 13% pay increase, which was

5:46:11amazing, but it's not sustainable.

5:46:13>> Correct.

5:46:14>> So what's the difference between a

5:46:16reclassification and a promotion? So

5:46:20promotion is a movement into a higher

5:46:22level of responsibility. Um typically if

5:46:25you are not a supervisor at the time

5:46:27you're taking on supervision of others

5:46:30whether that's on a full-time basis or a

5:46:31part-time basis. Um and then again if

5:46:34you're already a supervisor you're

5:46:35taking on a higher level of supervision

5:46:37and responsibility the organization. You

5:46:39do compensate for promotionals typically

5:46:42fires

5:46:42>> butific

5:47:07resulted in probably a bigger adjustment

5:47:10than we're going to make when we're

5:47:12doing it every other year. But yes, we

5:47:14were doing it every third years, every

5:47:16three years. And I would say the

5:47:17majority of position would go up at

5:47:20least a grade or two over the course of

5:47:23three years.

5:47:26I wanted to clarify something that

5:47:28council member Johnson had said about

5:47:31folks look at our tax rate but then they

5:47:33don't

5:47:35recognize that solid [snorts] waste fe

5:47:37is included in that tax rate.

5:47:40What did you

5:47:42what did you mean by that?

5:47:44>> So it's not it's not as important now

5:47:49because we have one of the lowest tax

5:47:51rates.

5:47:52>> That's that's where I was getting in the

5:47:55Um, everyone would always say, "Oh, look

5:47:58at so and so. Their tax rate is so much

5:48:00less than Morrisville." And they would

5:48:03fail to recognize that it is less, but

5:48:07they're paying an additional I'm going

5:48:09to It's like 200 to $250 a year for

5:48:14solid waste, whereas that we don't

5:48:17charge. That's included in our tax

5:48:19>> and and now our tax rate is the lowest

5:48:22lowest.

5:48:24It's 0.5 difference, but [snorts] they

5:48:27they charge like the solid.

5:48:29>> So, I mean, if you were to put solid, if

5:48:31you to account for solid waste in our

5:48:34tax rate, we go up two pounds minimally,

5:48:37maybe two and a half.

5:48:40>> Is solid waste. Solid waste is included.

5:48:43So, if we were

5:48:51Gotcha.

5:48:54We're the only one or one of two. I'm

5:48:56not sure

5:48:59we're best in the county that don't have

5:49:03a solid waste.

5:49:04>> The commercial has a solid waste

5:49:06>> feast.

5:49:09[snorts]

5:49:17>> I think Sorry.

5:49:19>> Oh, no. Go ahead. Oh, I was actually

5:49:21going to change topics. So if there's

5:49:22one solid, but I go ahead.

5:49:26>> Um I was going to say that I also think

5:49:28that it's time to put AI literacy on the

5:49:33priority list because I think that is an

5:49:37example of something that

5:49:40can make us more efficient, more

5:49:43productive.

5:49:46Again, with all the caveats that I said

5:49:49before, I don't just mean throw AI at

5:49:51everybody, but you know, an AI strategy

5:49:55to get everyone in the organization AI

5:49:58literate in the next couple of years, I

5:50:01think is I think that's important

5:50:04>> and bring that down to the residents

5:50:05too. Give them the opportunity to

5:50:07benefit. I mean, we're an innovative

5:50:09town. We want to be the place where

5:50:10people think of as tech and innovation.

5:50:14This is innovation home address. I've

5:50:15been trying to make that stick for a

5:50:16while.

5:50:17>> Oh, I like that.

5:50:17>> Um that would be something

5:50:19>> it I I get all that before we even at

5:50:23the residents. I think it has to come

5:50:26bottom up uh from every department to

5:50:30see what is the repetitive work and

5:50:33where am we are wasting just if we get

5:50:36the use cases then that's 80% of the

5:50:39issue fixed you know just a small piece

5:50:41of it after that and that only staff can

5:50:46tell us you know where are their like

5:50:49spending more time and what can be done

5:50:52what they don't have to figure out what

5:50:53can be

5:50:54where are they spending most of the time

5:50:56that can be automated is we can all make

5:50:59addiction.

5:51:00>> Yes, we've made some efforts in that

5:51:02regard. We certainly have room to

5:51:04improve and to grow and to to

5:51:06institutionalize it.

5:51:09>> Okay. Anything else on I think we

5:51:11discussed the the merit and that sort of

5:51:14thing. So, thank you. That's a good

5:51:15conversation to have. It gives us, you

5:51:17know, more information to consider as we

5:51:19start building a budget over time. Right

5:51:22now,

5:51:23Let me let me ask you a different

5:51:25question. You're always asking us, you

5:51:28as a town manager.

5:51:31You see all these things request you you

5:51:34can basically sandwiched between your

5:51:38staff and us, you know, and the people.

5:51:41So, how do you see

5:51:43the future of Morrisville, you know, in

5:51:47terms of trajectory and what what makes

5:51:51you not the night thinking about these

5:51:54things.

5:51:56>> I won't really tell you what I think

5:51:57about these things up tonight.

5:52:01So, I think for the community, I think

5:52:04there's still a lot of opportunity. You

5:52:06know, I still think that we have room to

5:52:08grow. I think we will grow in

5:52:10population. Michelle, I think our most

5:52:12recent

5:52:13is 47,000 is what we think we today.

5:52:17Again, I understand that, right? Again,

5:52:19it changes over time, but we think we

5:52:21could get to 47,000. That makes some

5:52:23assumptions. Some of that will be

5:52:25determinations you make on what type of

5:52:27development still comes and do we add

5:52:29more, you know, housing units [laughter]

5:52:32look like. Um, but we think we can get

5:52:34to 47,000. So, if you think about that,

5:52:36you know, that's that certainly is

5:52:38additional revenues to the town in terms

5:52:41of tax base because, you know, some of

5:52:42that can be vacancies, but some of

5:52:44that's going to have to be new

5:52:45development. So, I think we're still

5:52:47going to see some real opportunities

5:52:49with new development. You know, pathways

5:52:51and spark are important to us, but

5:52:53they're not all that's important to us.

5:52:54Certainly, if to comes out of the

5:52:56ground, that's going to be, I think,

5:52:57really important to this community to

5:52:59see the 30 Corners grow there. Um, I

5:53:02think that's an opportunity for us as we

5:53:04go forward. I think we certainly have

5:53:06some challenges, right? Because we've

5:53:08already seen our annual revenue growth,

5:53:11you know, it's not five, six% during was

5:53:13like the heyday anymore. I mean, right

5:53:15now looking at 2 to 3%. We hope that

5:53:18that's something that will continue over

5:53:20time. We continue to look at that and

5:53:21study that. Um, so there's still going

5:53:23to be revenues coming in, but again,

5:53:26we're challenged because I don't think

5:53:27the revenues that are coming in are

5:53:29going to meet necessarily the

5:53:30expectations of this body in terms of

5:53:33quality of life and things that you want

5:53:35to see happen for the community. So, I

5:53:37think that's going to be a challenge.

5:53:39Um, I think some of what a little bit of

5:53:42what happens here is dependent on

5:53:43others. Certainly NC do is a piece of

5:53:46that puzzle in terms of you know do we

5:53:48ever build the second portion of our

5:53:51airport you know when do mcrimin and

5:53:53chapel actually start you know because

5:53:55there's opportunities there in a variety

5:53:58of different ways for things to happen

5:54:00certainly decisions around BRT and and

5:54:03other things that are out of our control

5:54:05are going to impact us um so I do think

5:54:08we have some additional opportunity to

5:54:11lobby a little bit but the challenge

5:54:13right now is it just there's only so

5:54:15much effective lobbying period as an

5:54:17individual. I think we're more effective

5:54:19as we go through the league and we go

5:54:21through other entities to have our voice

5:54:23heard in Raleigh and things like that.

5:54:25So I think that challenges I think

5:54:27adding staff is going to be a challenge

5:54:30um because the revenues I don't believe

5:54:32will meet what we even have talked about

5:54:34even if we did half of that it's still a

5:54:37challenge. I mean, because

5:54:38>> that's where I was trying to get,

5:54:40>> you know, 50 positions is probably

5:54:42minimally six, six and a half cents on

5:54:45the tax role today. Um, and that's

5:54:48probably a little conservative. He's

5:54:49looking at me probably. I've lost my

5:54:50mind. Um, but you know, but there's

5:54:54there's decisions to be made. I think

5:54:56we've heard service level, service

5:54:57level, service level repeatedly. I think

5:55:00that's the theme that's coming out of

5:55:02this is that it's not that we can't do

5:55:04things that that you want to do for the

5:55:06community that the community wants us to

5:55:08do for them. It's just a matter of

5:55:09prioritization and it's also a matter

5:55:12of, you know, how are we going to manage

5:55:14those expectations and you know, what

5:55:16are we ultimately going to do? I mean,

5:55:17so right now, you know, we're working on

5:55:19some plans. We're looking on the

5:55:20comprehensive transportation plan. Well,

5:55:22that's going to come back with a lot of

5:55:24great ideas that we're not going to be

5:55:25able to do right away. Um, you know, we

5:55:27talked about community center. Are we

5:55:29going to be able to do that in the time

5:55:31frame we think we can or is that

5:55:33something that needs to pause? Do other

5:55:34projects that are in the CIP need to

5:55:36start to push back a little bit to

5:55:38perhaps minimize the impact on our debt

5:55:41payments? You know, do we want to grow

5:55:43above $6.5 million? Is there is there a

5:55:45commitment to bring that up to eight?

5:55:47Where is that million that's a penny and

5:55:48a half? You know, where does that come

5:55:50from? So, I think there's definitely

5:55:52significant decisions for this group to

5:55:54make over the next probably 9 10 months

5:55:57um that are going to not just FY28 but

5:56:00also the future of the organization.

5:56:03What are we accomplishing it? How are we

5:56:05accomplishing it and and where do we

5:56:08ultimately want to see ourselves and how

5:56:11do we get to that revenue versus

5:56:14investment expenditure state?

5:56:15>> So what is your conservative way of

5:56:17thinking for 2028 and

5:56:21a liberal way of thinking?

5:56:24So I think the conservative way of

5:56:25looking at 2028 is that we potentially

5:56:28do very little. Um I think that we you

5:56:32know ideally I think there depending on

5:56:34the philosophy of council there are a

5:56:36few positions that should be considered.

5:56:38Um you know we've got town center coming

5:56:40up. We've got some other things in

5:56:41public safety we need to talk about. Um

5:56:44you know as far as how long is is are

5:56:47you willing to wait? How long is the

5:56:49community willing to wait?

5:56:51to visit to get engine 22 in service.

5:56:53You know, right now that calls for three

5:56:55firefighters a year for four years. So,

5:56:57is it three or maybe it's two and it

5:56:59takes us a little longer to get there.

5:57:01Um, you know, at some point do you and I

5:57:04understand, but do you make a decision

5:57:06to try to fix part of that by looking at

5:57:08a tax rate increase that brings a penny

5:57:11that funds positions whether that's

5:57:13policemen, firemen, whatever that is,

5:57:15that's always an option. I don't know

5:57:16that that's this is the time to do that,

5:57:19but I think that particularly depends on

5:57:20the rebail outcome because from a

5:57:23conservative standpoint, I don't know

5:57:24that we'll get any new money out of

5:57:26that. And so then it's a decision of

5:57:28this body. Is there a willingness to

5:57:30consider a penny or two penny? I don't

5:57:32know. Um that would obviously give us

5:57:35some a bit of recurring revenue that we

5:57:37could talk about how we prioritize that.

5:57:39You we continue to look at I think

5:57:41Harrison's made a good point. I'm not

5:57:43sure how it fits into what we're doing,

5:57:45but you know How much control do we

5:57:46have? How much investment should we make

5:57:48to try to maximize land value um so that

5:57:51we are increasing our property tax

5:57:53revenues as much as possible. So on the

5:57:55conservative side I think we

5:57:57unfortunately probably don't do a lot. I

5:57:59think we potentially have to reduce

5:58:01merits down. That's going to save us,

5:58:02you know, a couple hundred,000. And

5:58:05although that sounds like a small amount

5:58:06in a $60 million budget, it's going to

5:58:08be important.

5:58:09>> No. And and to be honest, the reason I'm

5:58:12asking all this is because I can put a

5:58:15bet of 100 bucks that we will lose 15%

5:58:19of our tax revenue because the entire

5:58:22perimeter and all those areas they will

5:58:24fight tooth and nail to say that's not

5:58:28worth you know that's the tax that's

5:58:30that's where I'm like more worried about

5:58:34and that will automatically drop our

5:58:36base budget. It will. I mean, I think

5:58:39that's that's the worst case scenario is

5:58:41that the rebell comes back and we lose a

5:58:44penny or two. And [snorts] that means

5:58:46finding, you know, as much as $2 million

5:58:48to keep doing what we're doing now. Say

5:58:50nothing of salary increases, additional

5:58:53positions, smart shuttle expansion in

5:58:56the future, any number of things that

5:58:57we, you know, expansion of public art.

5:59:00Are we, you know, going to continue to

5:59:01try to do more with rental assistance

5:59:03and affordable housing and all these

5:59:05sort of things. Are we are we going to

5:59:06be able to build Markham Park. Are we

5:59:09able to do anything substantial at Wake

5:59:11Tech Park? You know, all that is is

5:59:13dollars and some of that's programmed in

5:59:15the CIP. Some of that is not. Um so,

5:59:18yeah, it could be a very challenging

5:59:19year. Um I'm optimistic in the sense

5:59:22that we are going to see the mccrimin

5:59:24corridor come online and that is going

5:59:27to generate, you know, revenues for us.

5:59:29Um again, Tiffany is chasing a third

5:59:31relatively big opportunity. Um that hope

5:59:35>> when do we get the CEO for that so that

5:59:37we can start taxing them

5:59:38>> for the CO for Millennium. Um we have to

5:59:43talk. I don't know if we're quite that

5:59:44far in the process with them as far as

5:59:46exactly when that happens. I know

5:59:47they're both moving. Um but we'll bring

5:59:50that back. We've shared that with them

5:59:52previously. We can update that.

5:59:53>> Is it only when we get give them the CEO

5:59:55then the tax starts? Is that how it is?

5:59:58That's what my understanding is.

6:00:00>> I believe that is correct. Yeah.

6:00:12100% anytime you're building

6:00:14construction.

6:00:18>> So you're assessing a shell when it

6:00:19starts and then the next year you're

6:00:21assessing whatever's in the building at

6:00:23that point.

6:00:24>> No, hypothetically, yes. But every

6:00:27company will say it's not worth anything

6:00:30because it's just a shell.

6:00:37>> When they actually pull for whatever it

6:00:39is that they're doing at the time,

6:00:40they're required.

6:00:43They're required to actually report an

6:00:45assessed value of that investment at the

6:00:48time. That information actually rolls

6:00:50all the way forward to the tax assessor.

6:00:52So that's what Tiffy's referring to.

6:00:55They they are in the study that we did

6:00:58with the process, we were actually

6:01:00seeing the new projects that haven't

6:01:04even finished yet, even the apartment

6:01:05complex over there already paying taxes

6:01:08on what was on the ground,

6:01:11>> right? And they have to meet certain

6:01:12requirements that they agreed to when we

6:01:15when we offered them incentives. They're

6:01:18required to to do a certain amount of

6:01:21investment like And in a way, of course,

6:01:24it does help them to say, "No, no, it's

6:01:26not worth anything." But to to get the

6:01:28tax breaks that we've offered, they have

6:01:31to invest a certain amount, don't they?

6:01:33>> That's correct.

6:01:35Basically

6:01:39made by the third to

6:01:43>> keeping in mind, we've done a number of

6:01:45those and we get to pay a dollar in any

6:01:48incentive for economic development. Just

6:01:51I think that's worth worth knowing. Not

6:01:53that I don't think that they're both

6:01:55going to take off and do exactly what

6:01:56they said they're going to do, but

6:01:58whether you want to look at it from best

6:02:00case or maybe not best case scenario,

6:02:02there's there's those pieces.

6:02:03>> Well, they still have to pay taxes on

6:02:04whatever they build.

6:02:05>> They do. Yes. Yeah. It's just that they

6:02:08may not build what we hope they would

6:02:10build uh based on, you know, what that

6:02:12tax would be. But yes, as soon as they

6:02:14start building, they've got to pay

6:02:15taxes.

6:02:16>> Yes, ma'am.

6:02:17>> Okay. Can we go back to adding our

6:02:19priorities

6:02:20>> and then we need to move on to question

6:02:22number two? But um you put in the

6:02:24presentation you had an item in here

6:02:26about trimming low return on investment

6:02:29services. And so I would add that I

6:02:32would say yes for me

6:02:34>> that we need to not keep adding but also

6:02:38looking at things we're gonna stop

6:02:40because they just don't make sense

6:02:42anyway for whatever reason.

6:02:54I just wanted to add on um

6:02:58for council member Garamel's question to

6:03:00you on what are your what do you think

6:03:03about a lot um and one one clarification

6:03:06you had said that um you know I'm

6:03:09concerned about land value but it's less

6:03:12about land value but the value per acre

6:03:15It's a difference between measuring

6:03:17miles per tank versus miles per gallon,

6:03:19let's say. Um, and I can explain that a

6:03:22little bit later. But I did want to say

6:03:25did want to make a point, make a request

6:03:29that as Morrisville moves towards

6:03:31buildout and future redevelopment, land

6:03:33use productivity analyses can help

6:03:35inform a better understanding of the

6:03:36impact that different buildout and

6:03:38redevelopment scenarios will likely have

6:03:40on our city's finances. It's important

6:03:42to utilize important we utilize the land

6:03:44use we have efficiently in terms of tax

6:03:46production and service delivery while

6:03:48also planning for future infrastructure

6:03:50and replacement costs. Increasing the

6:03:52efficiency of buildout can be used as a

6:03:54template for future land use decisions

6:03:57associated with redevelopment. And so

6:03:59I'm requesting that we reach consensus

6:04:00on uh investigating the use of a land

6:04:04use productivity analysis.

6:04:07>> Commission does that.

6:04:10you do those kind of things.

6:04:12>> When we did the land use plan update,

6:04:14there was a fiscal impact component to

6:04:16it. Um,

6:04:18>> love to see that.

6:04:19>> Not sure exactly what

6:04:23we're getting at here though.

6:04:25>> I have lots of resources that I can

6:04:27share. [laughter] I the big thing that

6:04:30is needed to advance this is council

6:04:32consensus

6:04:34from my conversations with with Brandon

6:04:36to just even initiate the investigation

6:04:39of this type of analysis. So that's the

6:04:42thing that I'm requesting.

6:04:46>> I'd say just what authority are we going

6:04:48to have when it comes to redevelopment?

6:04:50Most of it will probably be done by

6:04:51right because we don't have the

6:04:54authority to say no to much. But I need

6:04:56more

6:04:57about that

6:04:59>> start with but um I like where you're

6:05:01going with it. I'm not sure if I want to

6:05:03pay consultants for the information.

6:05:08>> I think to that comment, it really

6:05:09depends. Um we were in the process of

6:05:12working on a townwide resoning following

6:05:14the land use plan update. Um but then we

6:05:17got hit with Senate Bill 382, so we put

6:05:20that on hold. So we do have a number of

6:05:21parcels out there or properties out

6:05:24there where the zoning doesn't align

6:05:25with what the future use plan has called

6:05:27for. So, it really depends what is

6:05:30proposed to be developed um as to

6:05:33whether or not it's going to go by right

6:05:35or go through um a resoning process. Um

6:05:39those council members that were on

6:05:41council when we went through the land

6:05:43use plan update also remember that

6:05:45because there's less and less left, you

6:05:49almost went through parcel by parcel on

6:05:51the vacant land. And so some of that

6:05:54was, you know, fiscally, you know, what

6:05:56are the impacts, but there were other

6:05:58considerations that came into play

6:06:00there, too. But, um, you almost went

6:06:02property by property on the large vacant

6:06:04sites at the end of the day.

6:06:05>> And the thing is there's even fewer of

6:06:07those now.

6:06:13>> That's that's where the opportunity is

6:06:15in the redevelopment to make sure that

6:06:18the properties that are being

6:06:20redeveloped are being maximized

6:06:23>> right

6:06:24>> for the future

6:06:25>> because depending on where we are on

6:06:27this spectrum, right? That will inform

6:06:30our future budget conversations. And if

6:06:32we can make decisions informed data

6:06:34driven decisions, knowing where we first

6:06:37where we are on this and where we could

6:06:39be, where you know what would get us to

6:06:42a point where we don't have to talk

6:06:44about belt tightening essentially. I

6:06:47think that would be I that's that is

6:06:49where I would like to be as a town is to

6:06:52be in the be in the green if we are not

6:06:55in the green

6:06:57I I I get what you're saying but we can

6:07:01do all the analysis but till a developer

6:07:04comes does a redevelopment it could be

6:07:08five years it could be 10 years it could

6:07:10be 20 years you know we are only

6:07:12analyzing on that property what we could

6:07:15come as a best

6:07:16This is townwide.

6:07:18>> Yeah, I'm saying townwide. You know,

6:07:19just take a parcel. I'm just saying like

6:07:22say to Okay,

6:07:25>> Brandon said I'm expecting a lot coming

6:07:27out of it, but that is contingent to it

6:07:31being built and getting ready. So, it's

6:07:34five years from now or like you know 10

6:07:36years from now or two years from now, we

6:07:39have no control, you know, because

6:07:41that's the developer coming in

6:07:43developing it. and and same with the

6:07:46industrial areas or redevelopment this

6:07:50five 10 years

6:07:52in theory it is good but my fear is

6:07:56to catch up are we getting there you

6:07:58know because our costs are also going up

6:08:02so it's it's it's pretty much like a 3

6:08:05to 5% was understandable we had some

6:08:09wiggle room now it's 2 to three and the

6:08:12two to three is not even taking care of

6:08:14the inflation and other things that

6:08:16might be four five so we're already on

6:08:18in the hole

6:08:19>> right but satic we do have some control

6:08:22over redevelopment like Tiffany's asking

6:08:24for another person and I mean

6:08:28>> an economic development person doesn't

6:08:30just have to to deal with giant

6:08:32companies that want to locate in mccrim

6:08:36I mean I'm saying that like we you know

6:08:38if there are areas of town that are ripe

6:08:41for redevelopment I mean that's that you

6:08:44could look to.

6:08:45>> No, but she can't go and say like uh uh

6:08:47to a like a shopping complex, hey um you

6:08:51want to sell this and a new developer

6:08:53come and buy it. That's not what she

6:08:56does, you know, like uh because these

6:08:58are different companies uh like and that

6:09:02could take years the whole thing, you

6:09:05know, because scouting or basically

6:09:08getting the Navares and those kind of

6:09:10things. It's coming from the JDIG up the

6:09:13chain, you know, it's it's coming

6:09:15through the process that she's saying,

6:09:17okay, hey, we have Morrisville, we are

6:09:19the best, you know, pitching for that.

6:09:22But when it's redevelopment, you can

6:09:24say, "Yeah, this parcel is good."

6:09:27But it takes several several years to

6:09:29even demolish and do that.

6:09:31>> But the years are okay if we're starting

6:09:33now.

6:09:34>> Okay.

6:09:34>> I'd rather start now and two years from

6:09:36now get something rather than say,

6:09:38"Well, it's too hard to do that now and

6:09:40then two years we're just if we can get

6:09:42Tiffany to be intentional and know what

6:09:44we want to see,

6:09:46>> she can activate and try to be more

6:09:49intentional about that." staff tells

6:09:52certain developers that they're coming

6:09:53in, no, this council isn't going to be

6:09:55interested because they've been

6:09:56listening to us. So, she can actually

6:09:58tell people what we are interested in

6:10:00and bring things in. Like what I'm

6:10:02thinking right now is if we have a

6:10:03frontier here in in redevelopment in one

6:10:06of our flex spaces, that would be great

6:10:08and that would activate a lot of small

6:10:10businesses. It doesn't need to be JIG to

6:10:12change how things go and to make us more

6:10:15valuable than some of the parcels. So, I

6:10:17really like the idea of being

6:10:19intentional and knowing what we would

6:10:21like to see

6:10:24>> knowing what what's going to get

6:10:27>> and then figuring it out

6:10:28>> if we are

6:10:29>> Tiffany has something and then I I want

6:10:30Michelle

6:10:32>> she's

6:10:35reading

6:10:38>> so I knew I knew I knew she would flag

6:10:40it right away [laughter]

6:10:42>> because Michelle and I work very closely

6:10:44and I certainly write at the same time

6:10:48and development

6:10:50and planning. It does involve building

6:10:59discussions about what the child needs,

6:11:01what the child is looking for.

6:11:09from certain limitations because we

6:11:10don't have the power to truly and fully

6:11:14tell the voters what to do with the land

6:11:15that they own.

6:11:16>> Exactly.

6:11:27These are these are indes.

6:11:39So there is that opportunity

6:11:42>> and and the zoning because with all the

6:11:45restrictions on the zoning that's the

6:11:47biggest problem down zoning up zoning

6:11:49that's

6:11:50>> when we talk about redevelopment um

6:11:54and I've had some of these conversations

6:11:56with senior leadership I think sometimes

6:11:58my mind starts at a different place than

6:12:00maybe the minds of others who have seen

6:12:05more still grow um because I spent 15

6:12:09in the Chicago suburbs before coming

6:12:11here which was truly developed and

6:12:14everything was tear down and rebuilt. So

6:12:16when we did the analysis

6:12:19um and we we called so many acres

6:12:22redevelopment

6:12:23that was really underutilized property.

6:12:26So, when I'm looking at this, um, it's

6:12:28like, okay, we have over 900 acres left

6:12:32before we truly hit at least what in my

6:12:35mind I think of as true redevelopment.

6:12:38That may be different than what council

6:12:41thinks of as redevelopment. So to some

6:12:44some extent I think some common language

6:12:47or understanding of what redevelopment

6:12:50is might be good because I I think a lot

6:12:53of us might think of it differently.

6:12:56Um

6:12:57>> is that something put together and send

6:12:59to us

6:13:00>> to react to because today is not the

6:13:02day. Yeah, I will tell you um like at

6:13:05the old X Pedex property that is

6:13:09probably one of the first true

6:13:11redevelopment sites sites

6:13:15sites

6:13:17sites

6:13:18torn down and reconstructed but there is

6:13:21a lot of other property left before that

6:13:26becomes the new norm. Um but we also see

6:13:31like with renovations and upfits and

6:13:33Southport with renovations and upfits.

6:13:36So, is that what you're talking about

6:13:38when we're talking about redevelopment?

6:13:39Is there the re use and upfit of some of

6:13:42these buildings? I just think at some

6:13:44point getting some common language

6:13:46around this could be beneficial. That's

6:13:48a good

6:13:52one.

6:13:58>> I'm operating under the assumption that

6:14:00Morrisville is going to be around for at

6:14:02least a hundred years, let's say,

6:14:04hopefully longer, right? How talking

6:14:07about Chicago, like how much like

6:14:10>> when I'm when I'm

6:14:14>> when talking about redevelopment, right?

6:14:16I I don't think it makes sense to talk

6:14:18about this, you know, buildout and

6:14:20instate and kind of like this is this is

6:14:22this is the final state of Morrisville

6:14:25because Morrisville will be every

6:14:27municipality will be continually

6:14:28evolving and adapting to new times and

6:14:32and a lot of different things. So, I

6:14:34think yes, everything is on the table,

6:14:37right? If we're thinking if if we're

6:14:39trying to um set Morrisville up to, you

6:14:42know, survive into the future, you know,

6:14:44right?

6:14:45I know we I feel like we sometimes play,

6:14:47you know, the short game of the budget

6:14:49and whatnot, but you know, can we also

6:14:50play the long game of making sure that

6:14:53we we we are good stewards of the town

6:14:55for future generations,

6:14:58right? And I I feel that getting some

6:15:01that this kind of geospatial analysis so

6:15:05we can see okay what what is working

6:15:07well what's not working well can inform

6:15:09those conversations um that we can make

6:15:11now that might help us with our current

6:15:14financial uh picture um but get us if

6:15:18we're not on solid ground get us on

6:15:19solid ground and working towards a more

6:15:23um

6:15:25future with surplus I guess for lack of

6:15:26a better

6:15:31We're closing that one up. I'd like to

6:15:32go to priorities. Think in a 100 years I

6:15:36want to be able to visit Markham Park

6:15:37and the Wake Tech Park and continue

6:15:40working on greenways that we have

6:15:42planned and keep those moving forward.

6:15:44That will be a priority I think that our

6:15:47residents would be interested in,

6:15:48especially if we're not doing that much

6:15:51else that's resident facing. Activating

6:15:54a couple of parks and some greenways

6:15:56would go a long way to show that we're

6:15:59still moving forward.

6:16:02>> FY28 priority.

6:16:05>> So we've got, you know, Mark can't move

6:16:08forward yet. Way tech is in the CIP.

6:16:17>> So that's underway. Um, you know, we've

6:16:19got the greenway.

6:16:21Is there we want to have that

6:16:31Although I'd love to activate the design

6:16:34for

6:16:44I think we are still talking about

6:16:48the

6:16:52we are going into the weeds. If you're

6:16:53talking about single parks, it's more on

6:16:55the higher level that we are

6:16:59>> I would

6:17:02I would have to keep in mind we're we're

6:17:04almost to the point of wrapping up the

6:17:05parks master plan. Um and there will be

6:17:08uh another outreach to you all from the

6:17:11consultant before the report is

6:17:12finalized. Uh but we're hopeful that

6:17:15that work and the report the results

6:17:18from it is really going to inform the

6:17:19conversation uh and what we can do both

6:17:21short-term and long term

6:17:24and perhaps before we activate some of

6:17:27these spaces um I certainly

6:17:30if we can reach consensus on at least

6:17:32doing a preliminary investigation on

6:17:34what it would take to do one of these

6:17:36geospatial analyses

6:17:38um to see if that is an endeavor worth

6:17:40pursuing because I truly really think

6:17:43that going down that path will get us on

6:17:47on the solid ground where we can talk

6:17:48about park, we can talk about greenways,

6:17:50we can talk about um all the things that

6:17:52we want to do as a community.

6:18:03>> Do you say that from the [snorts]

6:18:05context of a park might not be the best

6:18:09thing? Not saying that a park, not

6:18:11saying that a park might be the best

6:18:12thing, but if we're going to allocate

6:18:14resources, um if we're allocating

6:18:17resources in such a way that we're we're

6:18:19putting things into things that will

6:18:20need to be maintained that will that

6:18:22will put us in a position where, you

6:18:25know, future conversations we're going

6:18:26to have to be belt tightening, you know,

6:18:28this kind of this kind of cycle. Could

6:18:31we take a pause on that to investigate?

6:18:35Well, what

6:18:37would help us loosen the belt a little

6:18:40bit?

6:18:42>> Because sometimes we have debt service.

6:18:51>> Well, you're actually talking about one

6:18:52step further. You're talking about when

6:18:54we get ready to activate the space. This

6:18:57is just an example. I am not advocating

6:18:59for it, but um you're saying like would

6:19:02it maximize the space if we put let's

6:19:05say a small apartment building and a

6:19:08park and a pier and all the other stuff

6:19:11like in other words like how can we do

6:19:14what we want in that space while max

6:19:16while not putting ourselves in a bind?

6:19:19>> I'm not asking that.

6:19:22I'm

6:19:26>> you want to wide analysis before really

6:19:30taking any steps to go forward.

6:19:31>> Is there any documentation about the

6:19:33geospatial you're talking about that I

6:19:35would really need to read?

6:19:37>> I'm not no not this. I meant to say like

6:19:40this is like a one pager kind of a

6:19:42thing. I want to go

6:19:43>> I've got six of these. There's so much

6:19:46information and resources out there on

6:19:48this type of analysis.

6:19:49>> And which towns have used this?

6:19:51>> Post Falls, Indiana. Um the other ones

6:19:55here, Gainesville, Texas. really nice

6:19:58>> Lilburn, Georgia.

6:20:00>> There's other ones as well.

6:20:01>> Anyone in North Carolina?

6:20:03>> It's a firm in Asheville. Raleigh is

6:20:05actually doing this investigation right

6:20:06now. So, there could actually be

6:20:07efficiencies because the this firm

6:20:09already has the the data,

6:20:11>> right?

6:20:13>> Yeah. They have they have the Wake

6:20:14County um GIS data and so there's an

6:20:17efficiency there. If we wanted to tack

6:20:18onto this, well, Raleigh's doing theirs

6:20:21that we could do.

6:20:23So the um there's there's a couple of

6:20:26different analysis that could be done.

6:20:28The revenue modeling is about 75K. The

6:20:31cost of services analysis is 75K and

6:20:33then doing scenario analysis would be an

6:20:35additional 20K. Um so not thinking about

6:20:38the scenario analysis, keeping the

6:20:39number simple, $150,000 to do this type

6:20:42of analysis. I don't know what sort of

6:20:44efficiencies would get with, you know,

6:20:45Raleigh having the data. Um but at least

6:20:48how much would it cost to like ask the

6:20:50question of like hey can we get a little

6:20:53bit could we staff I guess we council

6:20:57consensus to ask staff to investigate

6:21:00and give us back okay what would it take

6:21:03what what is the benefit of doing

6:21:04something like this that's

6:21:07>> yes I think that that is worth asking

6:21:10them to take a look at and

6:21:14>> I was going to say it's almost like a

6:21:16mini round

6:21:19Well, it t Yes. But it also ties into

6:21:21the fact that we're talking about budget

6:21:23and how to how to how to deal with the

6:21:27slowdown in revenue and what do we do

6:21:29about that? And we're talking about

6:21:31long-term financial stability. So, it

6:21:33all does kind of tie up.

6:21:34>> So, so, so

6:21:36I like the idea, but I think where I go

6:21:40is we always go into solutioning.

6:21:44Like the ask is

6:21:46>> the ask is to get a better understanding

6:21:48of the problem.

6:21:49>> The exact

6:21:51>> that's ultimately what I'm trying to do

6:21:52here

6:21:53>> so that we can talk about what the best

6:21:55solutions may be.

6:21:56>> So let Michelle

6:21:58uh look into it and like come back this

6:22:02is geopacial. It could be anything else

6:22:04but the baseline is the best value

6:22:08>> right? Is there consensus on

6:22:10investigating? So

6:22:12this is a public meeting. You are asking

6:22:15something of council. I want to be very

6:22:17clear.

6:22:18>> You know we do have that Thursday

6:22:21session but we agree today

6:22:39my op. Sure.

6:22:41>> That's how it works.

6:22:43>> Was this was your I've not looked at the

6:22:46round table items.

6:22:47>> This um this was not a round table. The

6:22:49finance decoder

6:22:50>> the finance decoder was

6:22:52>> right. So still bring your table.

6:22:55I think this kind of

6:22:58opportunity is for understanding the

6:23:01cost and des

6:23:10>> yeah asking the questions literally

6:23:11commits us to nothing

6:23:13>> right

6:23:16I would support it especially if we

6:23:18could look into maybe having NC State

6:23:20>> do a little project on it or something

6:23:23is that could be done

6:23:26>> again again it is solutioning I think

6:23:29see we're going to solutioning

6:23:31>> keep the problem statement and give it

6:23:33to them and let them come back to the

6:23:35solution

6:23:37>> okay let's get back

6:23:41>> yes that's okay

6:23:48>> then we got to get

6:23:51>> equity

6:23:52>> and I do want to ask it's 25 going.

6:23:55>> I need a break.

6:23:59>> I need coffee.

6:24:01>> Come back if you have another priority.

6:24:02We'll skip right to values after you say

6:24:05your two centri

6:24:14[clears throat]

6:24:18>> back right now.

6:24:21I'm going to recognize nominator.

6:24:25>> All right. Home stretch.

6:24:26>> Home stretch.

6:24:27>> Home stretch.

6:24:28>> So for priorities for 28 budget, you

6:24:31have safety accreditation

6:24:34maintaining the accreditation bond

6:24:36rating at AAA connectivity and

6:24:38engagement. I think the engagement is an

6:24:40important [snorts] part of that. We

6:24:41connect pretty well with people. The

6:24:42engagement is what we've got built. Uh

6:24:45sustainability, personnel, no risk. Um

6:24:48and we've also talked about how we want

6:24:50to address you know merit fiscal

6:24:53responsibility

6:24:55AI literacy and stop low ROI

6:25:00if if and when those can be identified.

6:25:02Anybody have any last addition to the to

6:25:05today's [snorts] discussion of the

6:25:06priorities? This isn't a get published.

6:25:08This isn't a final decision. This is a

6:25:10help us start thinking about where we're

6:25:12headed.

6:25:13>> Um I I want to add equity to the list.

6:25:16It's really important to me that that

6:25:20we don't make changes that will make

6:25:23people unable to participate in our

6:25:25programs without some type of offic Any

6:25:34other thoughts? If not,

6:25:36>> I don't know.

6:25:41And I know that's slightly different

6:25:43than equity,

6:25:45but um

6:25:49down in values, but I'll say here, too.

6:25:54I want to make sure

6:25:56there's no winners or losers that we're

6:25:58we're being fair across the board. And I

6:26:01not to harp on because we talked about

6:26:03it a lot, but this idea that residents

6:26:07or non-residents pay a different rate is

6:26:10important to me. Um, as it is to

6:26:13everybody I know, um, I don't want to

6:26:15speak to everybody, but that that

6:26:18fairness factor.

6:26:20>> Yeah. And I think that's a good start. I

6:26:22think it fits sort of both places, but

6:26:25So again from you know what three to

6:26:27five values should explicit explicitly

6:26:30shape our FY28 budget the suggestions

6:26:32there are reliability for services

6:26:35equity fiscal resilience transparency

6:26:38innovation there can be any number of

6:26:40more we want our focus around 85 again

6:26:44this is a start discussion today this is

6:26:47not a a blessing of it and we don't

6:26:49change anything other thoughts on values

6:26:54>> like leing to affordability and being

6:26:56aware of resident burdens like how some

6:26:59people like seniors or other fixed

6:27:02income keeping them in mind as we make

6:27:06decisions.

6:27:11I think a lot of that

6:27:12>> Yeah, it is really in that space.

6:27:15>> Transparency.

6:27:26>> I think transparency can also be part of

6:27:28like datadriven stewardship or

6:27:30evidence-based choices

6:27:33showing that we're using data.

6:27:35>> I think that's two different things. I

6:27:37think datadriven decision making is its

6:27:39own value.

6:27:42that

6:27:42>> transparency to me is

6:27:47>> putting it out

6:27:52>> customer service

6:27:54from the eyes of the customer.

6:27:56>> There you go.

6:27:56>> Customer perspective type of thing.

6:27:59>> We call it that.

6:28:01>> The the voice of the customer is what we

6:28:03call

6:28:08>> that's everything.

6:28:10even before transparency.

6:28:17I'm just going to add community

6:28:18perspective because that's that's a

6:28:20concept we've already got that we're

6:28:21already working with is on posters

6:28:23around town.

6:28:43Well, I think we talked that a little

6:28:45bit that theme. We talked about we heard

6:28:47you. We talked about protecting the

6:28:48future. We talked about we're at a

6:28:50crossroads. I think we can weave that

6:28:52into

6:28:55you sentence you like to share.

6:29:10>> We have all day or at least another 10

6:29:11minutes. You don't have all day. I'm

6:29:14>> easy at me all day. [laughter] A number

6:29:17of people may have your way and not be

6:29:19happy. So,

6:29:21>> all right. Um, so we've got equity and

6:29:24fairness, affordability, transparency,

6:29:26data, data driven decision making. Say

6:29:29that three times fast. And customer

6:29:31service or community perspective.

6:29:34>> I um I missed the community perspective,

6:29:38but I just pulled up a list of values

6:29:39and community was one of the values.

6:29:42See, I didn't even I didn't even read

6:29:44it. I told you.

6:29:46>> Well, again, just a reminder that, you

6:29:48know, community perspective came from a

6:29:50a discussion with that I had with you

6:29:53two January ago. I I started that

6:29:56>> because that started in that and you

6:29:57know by the time we were done with our

6:29:59conversation you know we had heard it

6:30:01multiple times and we started with a

6:30:03resident perspective and then as we came

6:30:05back and I was sharing that with staff

6:30:07we started saying well resident and

6:30:08business and then it was resident and

6:30:10business and stakeholder I said okay

6:30:12it's community let's let's let's keep

6:30:14this simple but yeah so that's where

6:30:15that all started was two years ago but

6:30:17yeah I think community andor community

6:30:19perspective is important

6:30:21>> a couple of words for

6:30:23work stability, service quality,

6:30:26organizational capacity. It's like our

6:30:28strategic plan, effective governance,

6:30:31something like that. But preserving our

6:30:34workforce

6:30:35as a our big asset. So,

6:30:37>> what was the second one?

6:30:38>> Um, workforce stability, service

6:30:41quality, organizational capacity. So,

6:30:44that's almost organizational resilience,

6:30:48making sure our staff is valued, we

6:30:50value our staff, something like that.

6:30:53doing the work

6:30:57kind of quality service.

6:30:59>> So I have one innovation.

6:31:02>> Thank you. I'm hold one second. I do

6:31:04want to say I think particularly for the

6:31:06two newer members, you may not have seen

6:31:08this document, but it's been sent to you

6:31:09on organizational resilience. It's worth

6:31:11a

6:31:13lot of work by staff and council to to

6:31:15come together on that as we started to

6:31:17really focus on, you know, where the

6:31:19root of all this conversation was. Are

6:31:21we making we're looking far enough ahead

6:31:23in the future. Are we making sure that

6:31:24we are not just trying to get through a

6:31:26single year?

6:31:29>> Thank you.

6:31:32>> What did I say?

6:31:35>> Yeah. Yeah. quality service because you

6:31:38know I we say customer service but

6:31:42from our staff point of view too it's

6:31:45you know c be respectful and that is

6:31:49number one like you know we have to be

6:31:51proficient and respectful

6:31:54>> y and I think that circles back to our

6:31:57town values as well and you know we we

6:31:59talk about those four values a lot we

6:32:01talk about when a new employee comes in

6:32:03talk about it in different meetings we

6:32:05occasionally use when we didn't do the

6:32:06best job we could have and we remind

6:32:08people of those.

6:32:10>> Um,

6:32:12would it make sense to pull community

6:32:14perspective out of the parenthesis or at

6:32:17least just have community be its own?

6:32:26>> Sure.

6:32:26>> Then I also wanted to add sustainability

6:32:30>> both environmental and economic.

6:32:34resilience. I think we talk a lot.

6:32:36>> It's not resilience.

6:32:38>> It's not technically resilience.

6:32:44>> I fought this. I tried to fight this

6:32:46fight a couple years ago and I lost. I

6:32:48think financial sustainability.

6:32:51[clears throat]

6:32:53>> Well, even if you talk about financial

6:32:55resilience and financial sustain Yeah.

6:32:57Financial resilience and financial

6:32:58sustainability or environmental

6:33:00resilience and environmental

6:33:01sustainability. Sustainability and

6:33:03resilience are two separate concepts.

6:33:07>> But but that's where we landed. I don't

6:33:10I'm not I'm not

6:33:13although I just did

6:33:16>> I think the bucket of like community

6:33:18wellbeing, quality of life, [snorts]

6:33:21safety, livability. I'm not sure what a

6:33:24good catchall for that might be.

6:33:29That's really good.

6:33:43>> Quality of life and safe community

6:33:46>> sounds great.

6:33:50>> Other values people

6:33:52>> don't have.

6:33:54>> No, these are the start and then we can

6:33:59I don't think we have

6:34:01the

6:34:08customer.

6:34:17>> So yes, thank you. So I think you know

6:34:20we've got some priorities to talk about

6:34:23that I think are a little bit

6:34:24internalist of what are we what are we

6:34:26looking to do with the budget we would

6:34:28certainly you know those may go into the

6:34:30budget message we'll refine those over

6:34:32time but it's a start and then we've got

6:34:34the start of the we heard you protecting

6:34:38the future crossro

6:34:43I did put two things in the parking lot

6:34:45is redevelopment it sounds like we need

6:34:48session on that talk a little bit more

6:34:50about that and then also geospatial

6:34:52analysis which we will start doing some

6:34:55research on and then bring that back as

6:34:56we would round table topic. So for

6:35:00values that we're going to focus on for

6:35:02the FY28 budget, we have equity and

6:35:04fairness, affordability, transparency,

6:35:08data driven decision making, quality

6:35:10customer service, community perspective,

6:35:13organizational resilience, innovation,

6:35:15sustainability, and quality of life,

6:35:18safe community.

6:35:20I think those are solid lists. I think

6:35:22those have we've gotten there a little

6:35:25different than than sometimes in the

6:35:27past, but I think this is sort of coming

6:35:29from the whole day's conversation. So,

6:35:31I'm pretty happy with that. I hope you

6:35:32are. I think that's a good start as we

6:35:35then we've got, you know, I think

6:35:37multiple opportunities to come back now

6:35:40and have some additional conversation

6:35:42with you. So, one of those is certainly

6:35:44going to be, you know, a redevelopment

6:35:46followup that can give you some more

6:35:47information on what that looks like,

6:35:49what we think that means. We've got back

6:35:51the geospatial analysis and how does

6:35:53that implement any decision making that

6:35:55you make about this budget or future

6:35:57budgets. Uh we've also got the CIP

6:36:00coming up in October that would be a

6:36:02deep dive during a work session and then

6:36:04we've also got coming back to you um

6:36:06council member Garamela had suggested

6:36:09looking at some policies and so some of

6:36:11that we're already working on. I think I

6:36:13shared a little bit with that with you

6:36:15either in a weekly email or just a

6:36:17reminder that you know we've looked at

6:36:19what the output has been what some of

6:36:21the questions by the auditor have been.

6:36:23So, we're comparing that to our own

6:36:25policies to make sure we're not missing

6:36:27anything there. We had already started a

6:36:29conversation around updating our policy

6:36:32on travel and training that is pretty

6:36:34close to being ready to come to you to

6:36:36take a look at. So, that'll be another

6:36:38work session where I think we bring a

6:36:39number of those different um answers

6:36:41back. And again, some of it is just it's

6:36:44not simple because it's not all in one

6:36:47place. you know, there's different

6:36:48policies that address similar topics,

6:36:51sometimes intentionally, sometimes maybe

6:36:52not quite as intentionally, but that's

6:36:54that's where we land. So, you know,

6:36:56we'll bring those back to you. Again, as

6:36:57a reminder, you know, most of those

6:37:00policies you approved. I'm not I'm not

6:37:02saying you should expect to remember all

6:37:04of them, but you know, the majority of

6:37:06that comes through you and we've

6:37:08established with you. But again, it's

6:37:09always good to take another fresh look

6:37:11and we've already done some of that work

6:37:13and some of that work um will get ready

6:37:15to do and bring that back to you at some

6:37:16point this fall in work session.

6:37:19>> So from the values,

6:37:22I go back to what an was saying,

6:37:26push AI into the workforce. I don't know

6:37:31which value how you say that like

6:37:33basically our word is you know AI first

6:37:35human later

6:37:36>> I think it comes under innovation as a

6:37:39value I mean

6:37:40>> correct you know but specifically you

6:37:42know pushing that

6:37:45>> adoption

6:37:47>> and I would push back against AI first

6:37:51human later

6:37:52>> see

6:37:52>> and say human first AI

6:37:56>> that's not how the world is you go to

6:37:58chat GPT you

6:38:01AI is the middle of the sandwich. Human,

6:38:03AI, human.

6:38:05>> Yeah. I mean say like if

6:38:09you need a human to start anything.

6:38:11Sure. And then you know you just look

6:38:13what it comes out and just say okay yeah

6:38:16it looks good move on like auto co-pilot

6:38:19>> that that is definitely not how I want

6:38:21staff to operate. [laughter]

6:38:23>> Yeah. So, so but many things are there

6:38:25like especially pulling documents and

6:38:27all those things and reports and other

6:38:29stuff. There's a lot of things that can

6:38:30be done.

6:38:32>> Yeah, Kayla was here. I'd have her

6:38:33explain some of what she's working on,

6:38:35but I don't understand, so I'm not going

6:38:36to try. Um, but she's done a lot of

6:38:38work. She and Billy have spent a lot of

6:38:40time together working on um things

6:38:43related to pulling public records

6:38:45requests and tracking information. Um,

6:38:48she and Jean have done Yman's work.

6:38:50Others have supported organizing our

6:38:52Share files um again particularly in

6:38:55terms of labels and things like that so

6:38:57that when we do these public records

6:38:59requests we aren't coming back with

6:39:01things that shouldn't be released you

6:39:03know and here that's just one quick

6:39:04example so we've got two monumental

6:39:07public records requests from our very

6:39:09good friend um across the street and one

6:39:12of those is anything relating to pew

6:39:14house and then the other one is a

6:39:17different topic um but for example the

6:39:20one for the pew house you know what we

6:39:22initially did previously was we went

6:39:25into Outlook and and sorted for any

6:39:27emails that were relevant to that and

6:39:28asked stop staff for documents. So we

6:39:31were able to give her some software that

6:39:33dramatically reduces that. But when we

6:39:35did the first search through SharePoint

6:39:37for Pew House, we came back with like

6:39:39three different uh disciplinary matters

6:39:41that had nothing to do with anything

6:39:42other than the name Pew was somewhere in

6:39:45there. So it gets captured. So, you

6:39:47know, I mean, when when initially that

6:39:50search was done for the pew house, I

6:39:52think it was over 10,000 records. And

6:39:54those got to be visually they've got to

6:39:56be individually examined. So, the

6:39:58software that we purchased, I think,

6:40:00narrowed that down to like 3,000, which

6:40:02is still crazy, but it's better than

6:40:0410,000. So, we are using AI to help us

6:40:07with that, just as one example of that.

6:40:09And Kayla has done a really lot of

6:40:11really good work. Um and you know Rick

6:40:13as well who had visit training um today

6:40:16um he would be here but Billy

6:40:18particularly has helped her. We're doing

6:40:20a lot of building things inside rather

6:40:22than always going outside um for

6:40:24software as well. So

6:40:32>> yes. Yep. So we've done some of that. Um

6:40:35so we had someone from Microsoft that

6:40:37came and directed uh instruction on

6:40:39co-pilot for staff. It was a It's not

6:40:42the end by any means. Uh and then

6:40:44actually just two weeks ago, several of

6:40:46us were here for an AI session that

6:40:48Central Pines hosted um that was done by

6:40:51a group out of George Washington

6:40:53University. Um, and I'm working on

6:40:55getting them to come to that leadership

6:40:57team plus meeting uh to to speak to all

6:41:00of our supervisors. Um, because he was

6:41:02he was my humble opinion better than

6:41:04Microsoft got um and he can tailor it a

6:41:07little bit I think more to us and he

6:41:08really understands all the large

6:41:10language models and all how that works.

6:41:13um and presented it in a way that like I

6:41:15understood which was good because you

6:41:17know

6:41:18>> and like just uh one thing is as I said

6:41:24ask the staff issues then we can have

6:41:27the it filter through that and I think

6:41:30we should have a work session on this

6:41:33because there's so much value that can

6:41:35come out of that.

6:41:36>> Yeah, we'll continue to bring you

6:41:37examples of that and share with you what

6:41:39we're doing and how that's advanced.

6:41:41more than that I think we want to be a

6:41:43part of it was what I'm saying was like

6:41:45you bring the stuff we'll just [snorts]

6:41:47say okay you know

6:41:50there's only so much every week

6:41:53something is changing

6:41:55that's how fast AI is moving

6:41:58>> I I agree we can talk a little bit more

6:42:00about bringing it to the council I want

6:42:02to better understand that a little bit

6:42:05>> but you actually you bring your issues

6:42:07to the council so that's why you just

6:42:09[snorts] read it out that's all

6:42:10>> so we determine how they should be

6:42:11solved with AI.

6:42:13>> No, we can then have like a

6:42:15>> industry knowledge

6:42:16>> industry knowledge, you know, like the

6:42:19they they don't I'm not trying to be any

6:42:22disrespectful, but

6:42:25it's hardly anything that they know what

6:42:27is going on in the industry outside.

6:42:31>> We bring insight from our professional

6:42:35careers that are different but similar

6:42:43I don't think that's I don't think

6:42:45that's council time. That might be one

6:42:47ones or small groups

6:42:48>> to just sort of share your thoughts with

6:42:50Brandon. He'll filter.

6:42:51>> I wanted to mention that we do have a

6:42:53community innovation group and that

6:42:54might be a good avenue to

6:42:56>> Yeah, that's what they're doing. Yeah,

6:42:57they're doing they're doing a lot of

6:42:59work. One of their topics that they

6:43:02select subgroup for which would really

6:43:04demonstrate the power of that group and

6:43:06how that is working better than there's

6:43:08an example of how we address something

6:43:10that wasn't working efficiently and we

6:43:12turn to something is working

6:43:14efficiently. So that's good.

6:43:16>> All right. Anything else on priority? Oh

6:43:19my gosh.

6:43:19>> Yeah, that's kind of like a

6:43:22>> genius. Somebody's been working behind

6:43:24the scenes. So we'll send talk to you.

6:43:27We we'll get some of this documented

6:43:29document. We'll update all that with

6:43:31you.

6:43:33>> Um

6:43:35I had mentioned this earlier in the day.

6:43:37Um but talking about budget philosophy

6:43:40uh but the budget is a short-term

6:43:42document. Um and I would like for our

6:43:45philosophy to be or our yeah our our

6:43:48budget philosophy to be informed by

6:43:50trends gleaned from historic annual

6:43:52comprehensive financial reports. and

6:43:56to reach consensus on you know

6:43:58considering that as an investigative

6:44:01thing to look into it to ask the

6:44:03question on that front

6:44:06>> could that be just putting the last 20

6:44:08of them into AI and seeing what co-pilot

6:44:10turns out

6:44:11>> um

6:44:13>> is that you've already done

6:44:14>> taking the afternoon to validate this

6:44:17>> I'm going to say

6:44:19we could feed all the budget into one

6:44:23and annual annual comprehensive

6:44:24financial report specifically

6:44:26>> and yeah like and I asked them to use

6:44:28that data you know and basically we spit

6:44:31it out

6:44:32>> it's like less than 15 minutes to get

6:44:35that

6:44:38>> if if if Jeie will give me the all the

6:44:40budgets for the last 10 years I'll do it

6:44:42in five minutes

6:44:43>> probably

6:44:45years

6:44:47>> we'll be happy to bring you

6:44:48>> no but but yeah I I hear where you're

6:44:50saying coming but it's We're entering

6:44:53into a different beast right now because

6:44:56every parcel, you know, we're tanking

6:44:59out. So, the trajectory was nice. Now,

6:45:02it's pretty much flat, but the expenses

6:45:05are high.

6:45:07That's where I'm seeing how it is going

6:45:09to go.

6:45:11All right, we're good. We got about 30

6:45:14minutes to talk about community

6:45:15engagement or if there's anything that

6:45:17we haven't discussed that you would like

6:45:19to discuss, we can do that now. We can

6:45:21do that another time. more pressing you

6:45:23feel what we discuss today.

6:45:30>> Okay. So this is your last question

6:45:40[laughter]

6:45:40>> for today.

6:45:42>> For today

6:45:46you need to say it now because now we're

6:45:49going to move on to community outreach

6:45:52and then we're

6:45:55>> Yeah. Yes. And if you have a thought, I

6:45:57understand you may think, well, I'm

6:45:58going to share that, you know, with

6:45:59Brandon later, but the value is

6:46:01everybody being here at the seven of you

6:46:03discussing it.

6:46:05>> So, I remember one sentence.

6:46:20>> Can you speak?

6:46:22>> Sorry. Wait,

6:46:32>> you got to talk towards the microphone

6:46:34so we can all hear you.

6:46:38>> The mics don't amplify sound.

6:46:40>> No, but if you're looking that way, we

6:46:42can't hear you.

6:46:43So the budget

6:46:46already and then making expenditures

6:46:52that

6:46:55>> is this something that we're all

6:46:57committing to or what what's happening

6:46:58right now

6:47:06>> firstction

6:47:15I So

6:47:17>> that says R, but he's saying his.

6:47:19>> No, I get it. But

6:47:21>> I think that

6:47:24I think it Well, first of all, I think

6:47:26it's early to say that we want to be

6:47:29revenue neutral or to make any

6:47:33any

6:47:35statement about

6:47:37the direction of the budget. But also I

6:47:41I mean

6:47:42The last time we talked about this, we

6:47:43couldn't even keep the lights on at

6:47:45revenue neutral. Like we we really need

6:47:47I think we really need to be careful

6:47:50about thrown out statements like that

6:47:52because

6:47:54I mean we already know that we are

6:47:57seriously seriously squeezed in FY27

6:48:02and I don't even think we were revenue

6:48:05neutral but after a reval you know to to

6:48:11say that we're going to be revenue

6:48:12neutral. I think it's way early in the

6:48:14process and I think we under we need to

6:48:16understand the implications of a

6:48:19statement like that on a budget process.

6:48:22>> I mean understand that but the question

6:48:27>> that's is just his perspective he's

6:48:29saying that's that's all it is.

6:48:31>> I'm I'm not saying that he doesn't have

6:48:32a right to his perspective. I'm saying

6:48:34okay all right

6:48:37>> you're both right but that's his

6:48:39position. The other thing I would just

6:48:41with my experience on the revenue

6:48:43neutral thing is even if we do set it to

6:48:46revenue neutral it really depends

6:48:49individually as to what the rate of

6:48:53increase or decrease on individual

6:48:55property. So some residential properties

6:48:58in the last were 50 plus% but the

6:49:02commercial was 46%. So even at revenue

6:49:05neutral there was a tax increase for all

6:49:07res

6:49:12from a worst case scenario is revenue

6:49:15neutral tax rate could be a tax

6:49:17increase. I mean, if the rebell comes

6:49:20back and the value decrease, you could

6:49:22have to have a tax increase just to be

6:49:25revenue neutral. Just want to make sure

6:49:27we're all thinking through that as well.

6:49:39have revenue neutral.

6:49:40>> So in order for

6:49:42>> in order for their tax bill to be the

6:49:44same, you increase their tax rate.

6:49:47>> So if that's the thing you care about,

6:49:49then that's different. It's tax bill

6:49:51versus the tax rate. So

6:49:54>> yeah, and that's really important

6:49:56because

6:49:59>> whatever tax rate we set in the

6:50:01re-evaluation year,

6:50:04every property is evaluated differently.

6:50:08And so every property owner is affected

6:50:12then differently. So just because you

6:50:15may set a tax rate that you think or I

6:50:19don't mean you, I mean you

6:50:22whoever collect

6:50:23>> collective view. Thank you. The

6:50:25collective view. I I use the collective

6:50:27view a lot. If we set a tax rate, it's

6:50:31not it doesn't affect everybody the same

6:50:35way.

6:50:37And we have no control over that. That's

6:50:39right. So, you have to be really careful

6:50:42when you're talking

6:50:44and and it's hard. This is a hard topic

6:50:46for the public to

6:50:49>> kind of swallow and process. That's

6:50:51right. Because um we we can't we can't

6:50:56affect each individual homeowner or

6:50:59property owner and allow them and give

6:51:02them the opportunity to not have any

6:51:04kind of tax bill increase. That's not

6:51:07what they're

6:51:09>> unless they do

6:51:11and I don't

6:51:15concern but I thank member for sharing

6:51:20that position because I think it's

6:51:22important that we have that dialogue we

6:51:24understand where we are today and where

6:51:27our positions are today and as we get

6:51:30more information because we're going to

6:51:31start to get more preliminary evaluation

6:51:36And then the real numbers in December,

6:51:49right?

6:51:52>> Yes, sir. Um, with the community

6:51:55engagement stuff, probably education on

6:51:58this whole revenue neutral um tax rate

6:52:00would be good. What was our revenue

6:52:03neutral tax rate for this year?

6:52:06From the last revaluation it was 30

6:52:08cents.

6:52:09>> We were at 39. Revenue neutral was 30.

6:52:12That's how dramatic the change was

6:52:16>> and council elected to 35

6:52:21and 34 million

6:52:24time

6:52:24>> and then the the difference between

6:52:27different properties getting

6:52:28>> and everybody's affected differently.

6:52:30And and here's the other piece, and I

6:52:32don't know how this is going to play out

6:52:34this year, but Genie or or Byron,

6:52:37they're really good about letting us

6:52:38know the when the properties are re re

6:52:43are evaluated, re-evaluated, sometimes

6:52:46residential goes up higher than

6:52:48commercial. So, so a revenue neutral

6:52:51rate may affect different the

6:52:54residential community very different

6:52:56from the commercial community. And so,

6:53:00That's happened twice now in reverse

6:53:02order.

6:53:05>> Well, yeah, because Yeah. But anyhow, so

6:53:07it's really important to know where the

6:53:11differential is, whether it's on the

6:53:13commercial property, whether it's on

6:53:15residential property because and

6:53:17whatever we do tax rate wise affects

6:53:20them even differently.

6:53:22>> And that's that's true for the um

6:53:24appeals as well.

6:53:28Which the irony is the commercial grew

6:53:32at a lesser rate than the residential

6:53:34and yet the commercial appeals are more

6:53:37prevalent than res.

6:53:39>> But just to be clear, the reason that

6:53:41the commercial grew so much or the delta

6:53:45was smaller for commercial was because a

6:53:47lot of the really huge commercial was

6:53:50was newer. So houses that hadn't been

6:53:53evaluated in four years had like

6:53:57skyrocketed in value, but because the

6:54:00the

6:54:01commercial had been evaluated when it

6:54:03came online, it was it was closer to

6:54:07what it should have been.

6:54:08>> Well, the housing market just changed so

6:54:10much more dramatically than anything in

6:54:12the commercial market. I mean, that's

6:54:14the other thing. Like, if I could have

6:54:16sold my house for what they said I could

6:54:17at the peak, I mean, I had to look good

6:54:19at the peak. I mean, I had to look good

6:54:20at the peak. I mean, I had to look good

6:54:22at the peak. I mean,

6:54:24>> a lot of people,

6:54:27>> you have your office, man. You can stay

6:54:28there.

6:54:30>> Back to kind of comment. And I'm not I'm

6:54:33not saying anybody is doing this right

6:54:35now, but don't stake out a position yet

6:54:40because there's so much more information

6:54:42to come. So, you can't stake out a

6:54:45position today without understanding the

6:54:48ramifications. We don't know what those

6:54:50ramifications are right now.

6:54:52>> I agree. I think that goes back to your

6:54:53service levels and you know again you

6:54:56will collectively make decisions about

6:54:57what you want those service levels to be

6:55:00and that may influence whether or not

6:55:02there's a revenue neutral tax rate or

6:55:04not.

6:55:05>> And and one thing more for Byron um

6:55:11all our loans or whatever you know at

6:55:14what percentage are they when are they

6:55:16coming up for you know like redoing it

6:55:19because the the loans are not coming

6:55:22down. It's only going to go up. The

6:55:23interest rates are just going up. Okay,

6:55:26that's

6:55:28I can say from a bank point of view.

6:55:30That's what I've been told. Uh so

6:55:34that also affects

6:55:37how much you know refinancing is into

6:55:41the budget. [snorts]

6:55:42>> Yeah, they debt refinancing when it's

6:55:45appropriate. Looks like it makes sense.

6:55:47>> Yeah. and we do we evaluate that, our

6:55:49financial advisors evaluate that. So

6:55:52when we have the opportunity to do a

6:55:54refunding, we try and take advantage of

6:55:56that. Obviously, there are times um

6:55:58where that might not necessarily be

6:56:00financially um prudent to do so. Let's

6:56:04say [clears throat] interest rates are

6:56:05going to go down, you know, a quarter of

6:56:07a percent, but the cost of, you know,

6:56:10issuing a new bond ends up being more

6:56:12than whatever we can save. Obviously, we

6:56:14wouldn't do it, but um you know, they're

6:56:16really good about giving that

6:56:17information letting us know kind of

6:56:19where interest rates are going. Um I

6:56:21agree right now interest rates seem as

6:56:22though they're going to at the very

6:56:24least maintain some level of stability

6:56:26for a little while. So it's not

6:56:28something that we see on the horizon

6:56:30given that most of our bonds that have

6:56:32not been u issued you know the past year

6:56:35or two are you know at a lower interest

6:56:38rate than kind of where the market sits

6:56:40right now. um if that flips or if for

6:56:42some reason it does come down even with

6:56:44the ones that we've recently done um

6:56:46there's typically a window when we get

6:56:49to do that we might not be there for the

6:56:50latest window um but that's certainly

6:56:53something that we'll we'll continue to

6:56:55sort of evaluate and take advantage of

6:56:57that when it comes

6:56:58>> but the reason I bring this up which is

6:57:00pretty critical is um all all these

6:57:05business and uh tech people

6:57:09during co they their PPP loans and they

6:57:12took uh business loans 5 years but 2027

6:57:172026 and 8 is where their uh interest

6:57:21rates all laps and they had to refinance

6:57:24it and people are just filing

6:57:26bankruptcies left right center because

6:57:28they are not able to sustain it that 7%.

6:57:32>> And that will affect our taxes you know

6:57:36kind of

6:57:39So, I want to just quickly share and

6:57:41react to Council Member Patel's

6:57:43statement. Um, I am always hesitant to

6:57:47go ahead and stake out something early,

6:57:48but I am much more on the put the needs

6:57:52first and the tax rate follow that. Um,

6:57:56and I would and I'm going to be

6:57:58openminded about low ROI things because

6:58:01I think we created different programs

6:58:03and even if they have low ROI, they

6:58:05don't have as many attendees

6:58:08are something I'd like to keep on doing

6:58:09them because I think that's how we build

6:58:11community. So I'm a little bit more keep

6:58:14doing what we're doing, expand, make

6:58:16better what we're doing. Um even if that

6:58:19causes an increased tax rate. So I'm

6:58:22just coming at a little bit differently

6:58:24that I'm more quality of life focused

6:58:26and less revenue neutral or tax rate

6:58:28freeze focused. So I think that part of

6:58:31today was sharing that out as much as

6:58:34possible. We're only doing it a little

6:58:36bit at the end now, but these have been

6:58:38some really great conversations.

6:58:41>> And one last thing, you know, we'll talk

6:58:44about this when it comes to probably the

6:58:46CIP discussion is the right time to do

6:58:48it, but you know, your next opportunity

6:58:50to to borrow is going to be in FY28 for

6:58:54fire station 2. So, you know, we're

6:58:56likely going to need to borrow I'm going

6:58:58to say round number $10 million, maybe a

6:59:01little bit less than that. Um, but

6:59:03you're going to need to borrow, you

6:59:04know, 28 to do that. So there's a

6:59:06discussion to be had whether that's a

6:59:08bond or if that's just a borrowing based

6:59:10on what it is. As we also talk about,

6:59:12you know, what what's the next thing

6:59:14that could come that would require a

6:59:17bond and debt. Um because again, as a

6:59:19reminder, you've got about $40 million

6:59:21in that capacity without a tax increase.

6:59:24We're going to probably take about a

6:59:25quarter of that to do the fire station.

6:59:27That's going to leave you about $30

6:59:29million in debt capacity should you

6:59:31choose to use it. Not have to, of

6:59:33course. And index, you know, that debt

6:59:35number going down the road and we want

6:59:38to think about that. But, you know,

6:59:39right now we think from existing

6:59:41conversations at community center

6:59:43potentially that next thing. But again,

6:59:45this CIP discussion will help us look at

6:59:47that and what else is out there and what

6:59:49do you want the timing to be on that

6:59:51we'll be able to bring you some updated

6:59:53information for that board looking at,

6:59:55you know, what does it mean if we do it

6:59:56now, what does it mean if we borrow this

6:59:58much versus this much versus this much,

7:00:00etc. So, that's also a piece of that

7:00:02puzzle.

7:00:05So I'm sorry 10 million for the new

7:00:12what other needs are there that can be

7:00:15bundled if we do a because 10 million

7:00:18for a bond is you go through the the

7:00:21expense of a bond

7:00:22>> yes

7:00:23>> you

7:00:2510 million doesn't seem like enough is

7:00:27there is there anything else on the

7:00:30horizon

7:00:32>> if I can ask a quick question. What is

7:00:34enough

7:00:36for value?

7:00:37>> So I and for some that might be and and

7:00:40I might agree in the end the cost uh to

7:00:42go for a bond for $10 million is okay

7:00:46but typically we we go for way more than

7:00:4910 million on bonds because how much

7:00:51does it cost to go out and

7:00:54>> go 150,000 or something?

7:00:57>> How much is the process itself or how

7:00:59much is the debt service? the process to

7:01:02go through a bond to put a bond on the

7:01:05ballot.

7:01:06>> Um, do you know how much about $800,000

7:01:12I think at this point?

7:01:26>> Okay. Obviously, yes. And it depends on

7:01:28the volume, right?

7:01:30the number of times we had

7:01:35two

7:01:37issue something.

7:01:40>> So

7:01:42community center is one put on it.

7:01:47>> I I know but I meant to say like if

7:01:49you're bundled because

7:01:52like those ones are like where people

7:01:54will go for

7:01:56>> well that's the next thing is you know

7:01:58do you want to one bond in 28 and then

7:02:01turn around and try to do another bond

7:02:02in 31. Do you want to do it all

7:02:04together? You know, in terms of other

7:02:06projects, I think at at cloud level,

7:02:09certainly the the community center is a

7:02:10piece of that puzzle. Um, depending on

7:02:13what a design looks like for the Wake

7:02:15Tech Park, you know, that's not going to

7:02:16be $10 million, but it might be worthy

7:02:18of including in a a bond that includes

7:02:21money towards, you know, public safety

7:02:23and parks. I think if we're going to do

7:02:25something with the pew house, it's

7:02:27almost certainly going to have to be a

7:02:28bond project.

7:02:30>> That certainly is a conversation that

7:02:31can be had in October as well.

7:02:33>> Or church street, you know, church

7:02:36street enhancements to go a step higher

7:02:38than what we are doing. That's also a

7:02:41bond.

7:02:42>> All of that is

7:02:44>> I'm sorry. We don't have

7:02:47this is a conversation we should have

7:02:49ASAP.

7:02:49>> Yes.

7:02:51>> Yep. that's coming in with your CIP

7:02:53conversation.

7:02:54>> I see we've we've arrived at the

7:02:55scheduled wrapup time.

7:02:58>> We're still going to talk about

7:02:59community engagement a little bit,

7:03:01>> but that's a that's a that could be a

7:03:02work session item.

7:03:05>> If staff could provide what the

7:03:07difference in the rates would be, the

7:03:09traditional borrowing and the bond

7:03:12>> and how much it would have to be in

7:03:13order to make it matter.

7:03:17>> You mentioned that a number of times now

7:03:20of Our traditional process is always

7:03:22wait till we get data. data drives our

7:03:25future decisions and we add that

7:03:27information into our financial models

7:03:29for handling debt and reserves with CIP

7:03:32in particular and that's the piece that

7:03:35we're now audit that's really primary

7:03:39priority at this point

7:03:42get that data roll it into our models

7:03:45look at the projects you've already

7:03:46given us but actually put now back

7:03:49information in front of you to rep

7:03:51prioritize this picture the size of your

7:03:54that major update

7:03:58policy for CI.

7:04:00Where does the bond fit? What are those

7:04:02rates look like? Can you afford it?

7:04:04What's what's debt? That's going to be

7:04:07all the table for our discussion this

7:04:09year. We're redesigning our CI.

7:04:12>> Great. Thank you. So, how can you get us

7:04:15talking about community engagement

7:04:16without having a solution?

7:04:19>> Well, I think we shared some of that

7:04:20with you. So, I think you know the high

7:04:22level of community engagement is is that

7:04:24we would like to involve you more

7:04:26directly in community engagement. I

7:04:28think there's something to be said for

7:04:30you hearing directly from some of the

7:04:31residents and the other stakeholders. I

7:04:34think we can do that a couple of

7:04:35different ways. I think we can literally

7:04:37go knock neighborhoods. I don't think

7:04:39that's out of the out of the realistic

7:04:41expectation. And I think that knock is

7:04:44to introduce the idea here's what's

7:04:45going on. And maybe that's the QR code

7:04:47for the survey. Maybe that's a a handout

7:04:50that's got the QR code plus, hey, we're

7:04:52having a town hall. We would really like

7:04:54for you to be there. Please RSVP here.

7:04:57If you're willing to come and, you know,

7:04:59have dinner with us, spend some time

7:05:00with however you want to describe that.

7:05:02I think that's a portion of it. Clearly,

7:05:04a revised survey is something we will

7:05:06get working [clears throat] on and bring

7:05:07back to you for a review of that before

7:05:09we start using that. And there's, you

7:05:11know, there's going to be a couple

7:05:12surveys, right? The first one is going

7:05:13to be the early on, what are your

7:05:15priorities? you know, now expanding that

7:05:17into what are you willing to pay for,

7:05:18what's more important than the other,

7:05:20that sort of thing. So, that's survey

7:05:22one. And I think survey two is more to

7:05:24the specifics of what's potentially in

7:05:26this budget and and you know, how are

7:05:28you approaching funding that and what

7:05:30does that look like? So, I think that

7:05:31survey happens. I think we certainly can

7:05:34continue to take advantage of our

7:05:35advisory committees and get them engaged

7:05:37in these conversations. And that's 50

7:05:39people, not 500, but it's 50 people that

7:05:42are sitting there that want to be

7:05:43engaged, that are looking for

7:05:44opportunities to interact. So, I think

7:05:46the advisory committees are a part of

7:05:48that. I think it's not above us to set

7:05:50up a tent uh outside of a Walmart or a

7:05:53Target. I think to sit in MFC to sit at

7:05:56CFCC's is because I mean it's not a ton

7:05:59of foot traffic but places that we can

7:06:01go um that we can draw you know direct

7:06:04feedback or again if people don't want

7:06:06to stop is at least hand them the flyer

7:06:09says hey we're having this meeting or

7:06:10would you complete our survey would you

7:06:12do both um you know because I would love

7:06:15to see us you know times 10 the feedback

7:06:18we had last year for this year to at

7:06:20least start to approach a reasonable

7:06:22significant statistic ically significant

7:06:25amount of feedback.

7:06:26>> Yeah, we we door knocked with the bond

7:06:29things, you know, like

7:06:31>> a lot of door knocking [laughter] like

7:06:33like

7:06:34>> they gave us like 200 300. Okay, this is

7:06:36your go for it.

7:06:38Um Mark

7:06:41>> I you had mentioned you know the the 50

7:06:44people that we have on the committees um

7:06:47and that not being enough but I like

7:06:50this idea of door knocking because if 50

7:06:52we got those 50 people to knock on 10

7:06:54doors then potentially have 500

7:06:57responses. So expanding

7:07:00like the more the more people we could

7:07:02bring in to do this the more outreach we

7:07:04would be able to do. I think

7:07:07>> that if they if they're willing,

7:07:09>> we want to make it their budget.

7:07:12>> Exactly.

7:07:12>> Your budget.

7:07:13>> Exactly. What are you

7:07:15>> There's definitely a tagline to be had.

7:07:17I think there's a way to approach that.

7:07:19Um that's just different than what we've

7:07:21tried to do before.

7:07:23>> I participate in a door knock day. We

7:07:25invited everybody in the and the

7:07:27committees, you know, and the council

7:07:29and we each took, you know, a section of

7:07:32town and I'd participate in that. I feel

7:07:35like I partic

7:07:36of engaging members.

7:07:39>> Yeah,

7:07:41>> I'm knocking doors every week anyway.

7:07:43So,

7:07:43>> I think

7:07:48some of us may

7:07:55>> both

7:07:57no

7:07:59big no.

7:08:00>> Hard no. Hard no. Oh yeah. Um but

7:08:03special events I think you know we've

7:08:04had a lot of opportunities where you

7:08:06know Michelle and transportation has set

7:08:07up a tables other people have set up. So

7:08:09if we set up and we've done budget where

7:08:11we set up a budget table it'd be nice to

7:08:13have one of you at that budget table

7:08:14with us to maybe in instigate some of

7:08:17that conversation and make that

7:08:19invitation because you know again us

7:08:21making the invitation is nice but then

7:08:22meeting a council member or the mayor or

7:08:24mayor pro saying hey I'd really like you

7:08:26to be there I think bears a little more

7:08:28weight than we bring to it. I've I've

7:08:31had a couple two ideas I think that I've

7:08:33not acted upon yet, but I'll talk with

7:08:34Brandon about one of them. Um, having

7:08:37these town halls, which you brought up,

7:08:40of like, okay, I want to be at a place

7:08:43and a time and, you know, invite the

7:08:47community in. You know, I think it's a

7:08:49question of advertising at that point.

7:08:50You know, how exactly does that work?

7:08:52Then also, um, so that's one where

7:08:53there's no foot traffic, right? You

7:08:55know, the historic Christian church,

7:08:57right? No foot traffic there really.

7:08:59You'd have to actually a lot of

7:09:00advertising. But what if it is a booth

7:09:02at the farmers market and you have

7:09:04people walking through and you can just

7:09:06you have a chair, right? You just, um,

7:09:08you just have a short little

7:09:09conversation.

7:09:11>> Exactly.

7:09:12>> So, um, great idea, but I look at the

7:09:17results. We should target 2500 inputs or

7:09:22something like that, a higher number.

7:09:24Because if we are doing all these things

7:09:26and if we don't get that much it's it's

7:09:28like it's worthless you know because

7:09:30these kind of things we don't do all the

7:09:32time when we do it let's [clears throat]

7:09:34do it all.

7:09:35>> I still think we should send a link out

7:09:37in a text message too. I mean I think if

7:09:39you send somebody a text about something

7:09:41they actually care about I think it's

7:09:43just way more effective than sending an

7:09:45email or a piece of snail mail.

7:09:51Yeah, we have the

7:09:52>> also be interested in a town hall off

7:09:54site somewhere at HSNC or at the

7:09:59First Baptist Church or just something

7:10:02>> that would be neat too

7:10:03>> and this is engagement

7:10:10>> I think so but but we're targeting more

7:10:13res

7:10:16>> I would maybe You said about going to

7:10:19shopping centers, setting up tent in

7:10:21front of Target. Let's go into the

7:10:23neighborhoods too. I don't know if he's

7:10:26>> No, we go to the HOAs. I think

7:10:27certainly,

7:10:28>> but even set up a a time where you know

7:10:31we show up in or creek and whoever's

7:10:35there

7:10:35>> at one of their events.

7:10:38>> No, it's it dilutes the whole thing.

7:10:41It's good to have it, but I think like

7:10:44when the real engagement is when you

7:10:46have 30, 40, 50 people in the room and

7:10:48ask the hard questions and that's where

7:10:51you get good inputs out.

7:10:52>> Yeah. Also, one thing that has struck me

7:10:57um and we've all kind of danced around

7:11:00this um it's the the way the way it's

7:11:04all communicated is going to be really

7:11:06important. And I

7:11:09instead of asking people, you know, what

7:11:12what do you want in the budget? I think

7:11:15this year it's we've asked you what you

7:11:17wanted in the budget before. We still

7:11:19have that information. We want to

7:11:21verify, but oh, by the way, we're not

7:11:23going to be able to afford all this.

7:11:25What of these things would you would

7:11:28would you be interested

7:11:31if we needed a tax increase? Would you

7:11:33be interested in a tax increase to fund?

7:11:36You tell me. I think

7:11:40Well, that no 100%. What? Well, I'm

7:11:43afraid of that because, you know, we

7:11:44heard I heard I heard recently we don't

7:11:47need another park in this town. So, and

7:11:49I'm like that.

7:11:52>> So,

7:11:54that's

7:11:56100% I agree. I agree.

7:12:00>> Sorry, there's two hands up over

7:12:04>> waiting for quite a while.

7:12:06>> Okay, you go. Um, when I was growing up,

7:12:10uh, I played a lot of, uh, computer

7:12:11games, just little flash games. And

7:12:13>> I'm shocked.

7:12:16>> Um,

7:12:17>> and, uh, what I'm thinking about right

7:12:20now is with regards to, you know, the

7:12:23interactivity of doing things. And

7:12:25honestly, there's a lot of things that

7:12:27I've learned in my life through playing

7:12:29video games. Um,

7:12:32but

7:12:34one maybe it's a it's a game design that

7:12:36I'm thinking of where right you are in

7:12:39charge of balancing this municipal

7:12:41budget, right? And you have

7:12:43>> that's what he was talking about.

7:12:48>> Thank you. Sorry, I didn't want to

7:12:49interrupt because I think you all have a

7:12:51lot of really cool and unique ideas. Um,

7:12:53but also wanted you to know that

7:12:55>> literally from [clears throat] the

7:12:56moment you adopted the FY27 budget,

7:12:59staff has been talking internally about

7:13:02how we also can help sort of support

7:13:05educate the public and the community

7:13:08about how a budget is developed, what

7:13:10certain terms mean because we talk a lot

7:13:12internally about local government jargon

7:13:15and acronyms and we all know what these

7:13:16terms mean because we use them but we

7:13:19need to help others understand them so

7:13:21they can better understand how we get to

7:13:23decisions we get to. Uh so comms and uh

7:13:27the finance staff has been working

7:13:29[snorts]

7:13:30We are are planning sort of a a long uh

7:13:34process of social media sort of

7:13:38educational type post around the budget

7:13:40of like a a did you know or FAQ

7:13:43different things like that different

7:13:45periods uh from sort of now through the

7:13:48end of the year into next spring really

7:13:50so they can sort of see the process the

7:13:52way that you all see the process and

7:13:54that we see the process of here's some

7:13:57some of those terms that you may heard

7:13:59and did you know this meant this or you

7:14:02know this is the definition of adorum

7:14:04tax or this is revenue neutral or that

7:14:07kind of thing. Then as we get into midy

7:14:09year then as we get into like budget

7:14:10prep and development really sort of

7:14:12taking them along that path with us. Um

7:14:16but just wanted you to know we're we're

7:14:18ready to to help support and advertise

7:14:21and and get the word out to you. So

7:14:24excited to hear your ideas

7:14:25>> feedback just give you some

7:14:29actual calendar up here. Just some ideas

7:14:32that

7:14:33retire before the end of

7:14:36national really connecting data and

7:14:41investment to outcomes in this budget

7:14:44and that starts the path of

7:14:46conversations for future investments and

7:14:49things like that. Paul and I talked

7:14:52about in October doing something around

7:14:57again connecting actual investments that

7:15:00you've given us this year to actual

7:15:03outcomes that are coming in this budget

7:15:06so that it

7:15:09meaning

7:15:15that we have these lots of ideas and

7:15:18topics throughout the whole year that

7:15:21into this outach here to get people

7:15:25connected to the investment outcome.

7:15:32I wanted to add on um there's a reason

7:15:34why these uh trend data and this um

7:15:37resource is called finance decoder

7:15:40is because it's designed to be

7:15:41accessible to people who don't have a

7:15:44finance background who don't have a um

7:15:48you know that that deep understanding um

7:15:50so it's a could be used as a community

7:15:53engagement tool along with I think the

7:15:55seni diagram is honestly a really great

7:15:58way to visualize some of this stuff as

7:15:59well because it It's definitely hard to

7:16:02conceptualize the magnitude of,

7:16:06you know, where things come from, where

7:16:07things go. Um, but that's basically just

7:16:10a snapshot like, oh, a lot of resources

7:16:13are going to fire and police. It's like,

7:16:15okay, yeah, yeah, that's probably that's

7:16:17probably good, right?

7:16:19So, I like I appreciate that that was

7:16:22included in the packet as well.

7:16:24>> Can we just have everyone just glance at

7:16:26Erin real quick? She's getting a picture

7:16:28of the group. Everyone turn around.

7:16:32I didn't know you

7:16:34>> sort of natural.

7:16:37>> Thank you.

7:16:38>> Thank you.

7:16:40>> All right. Um I think we're at a good

7:16:42place with that as well. Um so I will

7:16:46say thank you. Um very appreciative of

7:16:49your time today. I hope this was

7:16:50valuable to you. was certainly valuable

7:16:52to us um to help us as we really start

7:16:55to dig in even earlier into an FY28

7:16:57budget process. Again, I I'll send you

7:17:00an email Monday or Tuesday that

7:17:02summarizes what I think happened today

7:17:03and what some of our next steps are,

7:17:05what some of our next dates are for

7:17:07different work sessions and other

7:17:08things. Um if you leave this and do have

7:17:11any ideas that oh, I wish I would have

7:17:13said, please feel free to send those to

7:17:14me. Um I can certainly share those out

7:17:16to the group as a whole. Um not for

7:17:19responses so we don't business an email,

7:17:21but so everybody can see those. Um, and

7:17:24we will see you all on Tuesday for

7:17:27council meeting

7:17:28>> and Thursday, right?

7:17:29>> And Thursday. [clears throat]

7:17:34>> So, thanks. Thank you so much to staff

7:17:38for being here. Thank you for my fellow

7:17:39council members for taking time on a

7:17:41Saturday and sharing your thoughts and

7:17:43your values as we this is pretty much

7:17:45the start of the FY2 28 budget. So,

7:17:47thank you all very much. really

7:17:48appreciate. I'd entertain a motion to

7:17:50adjourn.

7:17:51>> So move to

7:17:52>> motion from council member a second from

7:17:55council member. All those in favor of

7:17:56adjourning this summary treat please say

7:17:59I. I oppose. Hearing none that carries

7:18:02unanimously. 70. It is 4:30. We are

7:18:05journ. Thank you all.

7:18:07>> Should make this.

7:18:07>> Thank you the staff. Appreciate it.

7:18:09Staff appreciate it. New staff

7:18:11appreciate it.