2026-09-08 - Town Council Regular Session

05:30test councilmember Johnson can you try speaking again I sure can can you hear

11:09me yeah we can hear you yeah that's fine I'm still getting feedback but that's

11:17fine okay sorry thank you nope thank you good evening I call this September 8th

15:452026 meeting of the Morrisville town council to order we ask those in

15:49attendance tonight to please silence your cell phones councilmember Johnson

15:53is participating remotely this evening thank you to those here in person with

15:57us tonight those watching via live stream those who are watching a

16:01recording of this meeting our town mission statement which helps guide our

16:05decisions tonight and into the future is connecting our diverse community to an

16:09enhanced quality of life through innovative programs and services

16:13Sergeant Strickland is our sergeant in arms for this evening's meeting we

16:17thank you for your attendance as we gather this evening let us take a brief

16:22moment to reflect on the privilege we have to serve this community Dr. Mark

16:27Luther King jr. reminded us that anyone can be great because anyone can

16:31serve his words encourage us to approach each day and each decision with humility

16:37compassion and a willingness to lift others up in a few weeks we will come

16:42together again at our town's International Festival a celebration

16:46that reminds us that Morrisville is not only a place where everyone feels

16:49valued and included but a place where no one is left behind we do more than

16:54provide public safety and roads we help create memories experiences and moments

16:59of connection that strengthen the bonds of our community as we begin tonight's

17:03work may we do so with gratitude for the opportunity to serve with respect

17:08for one another and with a continued commitment to ensuring Morrisville

17:11remains a place where all people are welcome supported and able to thrive all

17:17who are able please stand as we write to site the Pledge of Allegiance

17:39at this time I'd like to recognize the town manager for possible adjustment to

17:50the agenda thank you mayor I'd like to request that the item that is labeled

17:5616a as a closed session instead be listed as a work session as item 15b

18:02with the title drone show okay before I adopt tonight's agenda town council

18:11policies review and ensure there are no conflicts of interest or appearance of

18:14conflict of interest with any items on the agenda if you notice anything on

18:17the agenda that could be a conflict or look like one could you please share

18:20that now seeing none is there a motion and second to adopt this evening's

18:26regular agenda with that amendment suggested by the town manager to

18:30discuss drone show as a work session item 15b as in Bravo I'll make that

18:34motion motion from mayor pro tema body a second from councilmember Caramella

18:39all those in favor please say aye aye any opposed here we're not going to

18:44carry gene that is least six zero there are four items on our consent agenda

18:48resolution authorizing construction of an international drive sidewalk project

18:53key to the town policy resolution approving a lease for the relocation

18:58slash expansion of the senior center locally preferred alternative for the

19:02weight robust rapid transit western car to your extension say that five times

19:07fast would any member of council wish to pull any item for discussion or is

19:13there a motion and a second to adopt the consent agenda I'll make that motion

19:20thank you I have a motion from their pretend we're body a second from

19:24Councilmember Scott Johnson all those in favor of adopting the consent agenda

19:28please say aye aye any opposed hearing none that also carries and honestly six

19:33zero we have one proclamation listed on our agenda for reference to be read

19:37outside of this meeting it is a proclamation recognizing national

19:41preparedness preparedness month we're now at item 9 item 9 morrisville

19:48speaks public comment for those who have signed up to speak please approach the

19:53microphone and begin by stating your name and residential address and direct

19:56your comments to the council each speaker is allotted three minutes to

19:59ensure everyone has a fair opportunity to share their thoughts a timer will

20:03start after you state your name and address and a buzzer will sound when

20:06your time is up we appreciate your cooperation and helping us manage time

20:09fairly for all participants and there was a number of sheets out there because

20:13we're having our public address as always and a few public hearings as

20:16well so I'm counting on that town clerk to help us make sure this goes as

20:20smoothly as possible at town court certainly do we have anyone signed up

20:23with public address we do first is Linda Lyons my name is Linda Lyons 1005 Church

20:32Street and I noticed that on the news and with small town there are a lot of

20:38financial issues for example Zeppelin carry and Rocky Mount and I'm just

20:45wondering what is Marshall procedures to make sure that this does not happen in

20:51moisture and I would like for someone to get back with me and send me an email

20:57or something to let me know what's being done and make sure we don't run

21:01into any kind of financial issues with the audit thank you very much next is

21:11Peggy Medlin we live our property is Peggy Medlin our property is thanks to

21:29the property that you want to rezone and want all the building it did not

21:34take me but 10 minutes to get out of my driveway I'm a criminal part way to

21:40come here tonight and I can't imagine what it will be we know that there

21:47should be a car for every house or every family that moves there and there

21:54may be two cars I just cannot see it I hate to see that Church Street gets

22:00like my Cremen Parkway there's very few days that there is not a wreck on my

22:07Cremen it's because it's so full and we all know that they've been talking years

22:14to change the road and it's just gonna be a hard time for the rest of us the

22:22three of the families that lives on my Cremen between Church Street and 54 to

22:28get out and I can't imagine putting a whole bunch of new people on Church

22:33Street and you all are gonna be just like we are stuck in home okay if you

22:41could please give your residential address we got the fact that you're on

22:44the Cremen but is there a house number? Thank you very much Ms. Medlin thanks for

22:55sharing your thoughts that is the end of our sign of speakers for public

23:02comment okay is there anyone else here in the room who would like to speak to

23:06this body for up to three minutes on any subject of your choosing other than

23:10the public hearings sir your name and residential items for the record sir my

23:17name is Randy Marshburn I live in a 704 Church Street in

23:21Marshfield and what I got is pertaining to my understanding y'all want to

23:25rezone the property beside us and beside me and where I've got is a farm

23:30it's got cattle on it there and I just wanted to y'all to be aware that my

23:36concerns is the water flow coming off of this going through our property

23:40because the creek flows down through there also too if they go put all this

23:44property houses and stuff there I want to make sure there's some sort of a

23:48barrier there to keep kids and stuff from crossing fences to protect

23:52themselves and you protect my cows and stuff there thank you thank you would

24:01anyone else like to avail themselves of the opportunity to address this body as

24:24a reminder we encourage the submission of written comments as they offer a

24:28valuable way for community members to share their feedback because some people

24:31aren't able to make the meetings themselves to submit written comments

24:35please email public input at morrisvillenc.gov for now item 10

24:40administrative reports administrative reports are for information only unless

24:45council has specific questions would any member of council like to pull the

24:48report which is the Chamber of Commerce quarterly report okay seeing none we

24:57will move on we appreciate Christy Moser being here in case there was any

25:00questions she's our president on the chamber now we're moving on to number 11

25:04public hearings we have three public hearings this evening we now invite

25:08Tiffany McNeil economic development director to the podium council is

25:12scheduled to take action tonight on this item and Tiffany you've changed

25:20good evening mayor members of council I will be covering for Tiffany McNeil she

25:26had to attend to another commitment related to economic development my name

25:31is Jessa Rodriguez and I am the deputy town manager so I will speak to you

25:37this evening regarding Project Titan and Maple Oak incentive incentive

25:41agreement the purpose of this agenda item is for town council to consider an

25:46amended and consolidated economic development incentive agreement this

25:51agreement supports both Project Titan that was announced in November 2025 and

25:57Project Maple Oak that was announced in April 2026 both major initiatives led

26:03by Novartis innovative technologies Inc the company formerly known as Novartis

26:09gene therapies Inc with the name change taking effect this last May before I go

26:15into further detail about what this incentive agreement means I would like

26:19to recognize Matt Lowell the project consultant from Ryan and I would like to

26:25recognize his bull icon from a project director from small molecules

26:31operations from Novartis welcome Novartis innovative technology and

26:36headquarter in Banach burn Illinois's with parent company Novartis AG

26:44headquarter in Basel Switzerland plans to establish expanded operations on

26:48pathway triangles life science campus that is located at 1,000 science drive

26:53in Morrisville the proposed amendment expands the scope of the previously

26:58approved Project Titan incentive that includes Project Maple Oak aligning

27:03both investments under one single incentive agreement these combined

27:08projects mark a significant Novartis expansion within the pathway triangle

27:14campus with a particular focus on advancing national cancer treatment

27:18manufacturing capacity together Project Titan and Project Maple Oak are

27:24projected to generate a hundred and eighty new full-time jobs and a capital

27:29investment of approximately four hundred and fifty one million which will

27:33strengthen Morrisville tax base and directly support the town's strategic

27:37plan goal number five which is economic prosperity under the town's economic

27:43development policy Novartis may qualify for a grant valued at up to 1% of

27:48assessed property improvements with eligibility beginning once the project

27:53reaches the two hundred million assessed value threshold grant payments

27:57are estimated to be distributed in eight annual installments totaling

28:02approximately four point five one million with each payment estimated at

28:07five hundred and sixty three thousand seven hundred and fifty five hundred

28:11and sixty three million seven hundred and fifty it's important to know that

28:16all incentive agreement payments will be contingent upon Novartis agreement

28:22Novartis meeting performance benchmarks and the payment of associated property

28:26taxes I am happy to answer any questions that you may have about the agreement

28:31about any of these projects before we open the public hearing electric nice

28:43mare pretend we're body things Giselle would you mind just going over the

28:48numbers again please I got a little confused in the middle there the

28:53investment is four hundred and fifty one million dollars the incentive at a

28:59one percent will be four four point five one million the installments will be

29:04divided into eight which will be five hundred and sixty three thousand seven

29:07hundred and fifty and that's as a tax credit or it is a rebate essentially

29:14after the the money is received by us then we will credit that money back oh

29:19thank you okay I don't see any other questions so I'll declare the public

29:26hearing open at this time thank you and go ahead and ask the town clerk if

29:30there's anyone signed up for this public hearing there's no one signed up to

29:33speak on this okay is there any of the audience who didn't sign up who wish to

29:39speak on this item okay see none I'd entertain a motion to close the public

29:45hearing I'll make that motion second the motion from our return body a second

29:52from councilmember Scott Johnson to close the public hearing all those in

29:55favor please say aye aye any opposed hearing on that carries unanimously six

30:00zero any discussion on this item does anyone have any questions for staff or

30:06the applicant like to recognize Councilmember Kestlin please so what is

30:17the expected tax revenue from this improvement I don't have that number with

30:27me right now but I can definitely get that to you and follow up question on

30:32there the four point five one million dollars that was you mentioned

30:37installments what was the time period and over the installment payments it

30:41will be eight eight payments and it will be five hundred and eighty three thousand

30:48seven hundred and fifty five sixty three thousand seven hundred and fifty

30:54what is the timeline on that so it will be over eight years they will have

31:00five years to realize the investment and it will be paid back over a period

31:04of eight years so five years when the when the investment is made five years

31:13after that and then eight years for the payment so they will start receiving

31:20incentive after they pass this 100,000 the 200 million apologize 200 million

31:27investment threshold once they need that market 200 million they will start

31:32receiving incentive but never exceeding the amount that we received in any

31:36given year okay and it will be at a 1% with that in the other discussion is

31:53there a motion and a second - on this item I'd like to make a motion to adopt

31:59resolution 2026 - 317 - 0 of the wartsville town council authorizing an

32:05incentive grant agreement with Novartis innovative technologies in a motion from

32:12mayor for Tamara body a second from council member Garamilla all those in

32:15favor please say aye aye any opposed okay that carries unanimously 6-0 thank

32:21you miss Rodriguez we'll now move on to the second public hearing we now invite

32:28Jordan price planer 1 to the podium council is once again scheduled to take

32:32action tonight on this item as well getting the mayor in town council my

32:41name is Jordan Prince planer 1 tonight I'll be presenting the volunteer

32:45annexation for the property located 808 church and 0 Church Street these

32:55properties are currently zoned low density residential and the applicant

33:00Middleburg communities LOC is proposing to develop duplex residence units

33:04currently the land consists of a single-family home and two vacant lot

33:10together the annexation area covers 2.159 acres across three white county

33:17penis these parcels are a part of the Hamlet Church duplexes project which

33:23will cover 34.83 acres and include 128 duplex units the proposed use

33:32remains low density residential consistent with the current zoning

33:35designation the staff recommends the approval of the petition to extend the

33:43town of Moore'sville corporate limits to the subject property for the following

33:46reasons the town has historically honored the volunteer and station

33:50requests the annexation petition meets all statutory requirements annexation

33:56of the property would expand the town's tax base and the annexation and

34:00increase in tax base will improve the economies of scale and delivery of town

34:05services and on August 25th council was asked to consider two resolutions the

34:16first resolution verifying the sufficiency of the annexation petition

34:20and the second set in the date for public hearing which is on this evening

34:24so after public comments council will be asked to consider an ordinance to

34:29officially annex 808 church and your church streets and this includes my

34:35presentation I'm happy to answer any questions also the applicant's legal

34:40representation it's here if you have any questions for them

34:42any questions Mr. Prince or the applicant's I'd like to recognize my

34:48photographer body please hi thank you for the presentation I you might have

34:54covered this and I might have missed it but this development is by right or

34:59requires a zoning it is by right yes okay so the only thing that we're

35:03voting on tonight's whether or not we will annex the property that's correct

35:07and and that's seeing the property in town entitles the annexing to fire

35:15services police etc or what is the exact impact of annexation yeah so that will

35:21they will be include all this town services and that would allow them to

35:26continue this project on the Hamlet Church duplexes okay thank you very much

35:31oh I'd like to recognize councilmember Johnson please remote thank thank you

35:53mayor I just wanted to follow up with mayor pro tem Robotic's comments this is

36:01just simply an annexation where the property owners would receive service

36:08but most importantly they will be paying taxes to the town of Mooresville which

36:14they are not current that is correct thank you I appreciate that I'm sorry

36:24to think of one more question during the public hearing we've heard a

36:27concern about the gentleman with a farm with cattle what is traditionally the

36:34town's role in that type of negotiation for fences and such between the

36:39properties do we have any role there or is that between the developer and the

36:43adjacent home that I'm not sure but I believe that will be a silver matter

36:50thank you like to recognize the town manager at this time mayor pro tem that

36:55would be addressed as part of their application to construct there so again

36:59this is just your annexation to bring the property into town and then they'll

37:04work through staff because it's an outright development and all those

37:07inspections and requirements will be upheld as part of that process but at

37:11what point in that process brandy would would staff be informed that there's an

37:17adjacent farm you know what I mean like that doesn't seem like something likely

37:21to come up between the developer and staff I understand that this is the

37:26annexation here in front of me well staff will look at that as part of any

37:30process as far as what they need to it's not necessarily that a farm is

37:35next door but it is about containing their own stormwater on the site or in

37:40connection to a stormwater pipe so that that will be enforced as part of the

37:45the inspection and permitting process okay would that include a fence so that

37:49the kids can't bother the cattle and the cattle can't bother the kids I can't

37:53say it that will require a fence that would be something that they would work

37:57through with staff thank you council member garamela please can you go back

38:05to the map that shows this is on church street yes great and it will be in

38:38voluntary annexation and by rights but that doesn't really mean but they still

38:45have to go with the rule sets of especially expanding their tournaments

38:51on church street and all those things will be as part of the regular

38:54requirements and putting street lights and other stuff correct okay so at this

39:05time I declare the public hearing open down clerk Bertling do we have anyone

39:10signed up for this public hearing we do first is Linda Lyons your name and

39:19residential address and you have three minutes please my name is Linda Lyons

39:231005 church Street I want to thank you for allowing me regarding the request to

39:27annex 2.5 acres and change the properties on into low density to low

39:33density duplex dwelling I want to make it clear that I'm not opposed to the

39:38annexation of the property itself however I do have concerns about whether

39:43the proposed duplex development as currently envision is an appropriate fit

39:48for Marshall and the surrounding neighborhoods I understand additional

39:53tax revenue and increase in tax base are important consideration for the town but

39:58at the same time the town should carefully evaluate the long-term effect

40:02this development should have on nearby resident including traffic trainers

40:07safety noise appearance and overall characteristic of the community I

40:12respectfully ask the town council and planning staff staff to carefully

40:17considering the problems buffer and railroad tracks will there be sufficient

40:22large buffer between the existing home and proposed development and nearby

40:26train track what landscaping fencing or other screening is being considered

40:31however will be he'll goes in and leave the development are those proposed road

40:36wide and safe enough to handle residential visitors service vehicle

40:41emergency vehicles and construction traffic how will the development affect

40:46church Street and the surrounding roads has there have been a formal impact

40:52study being completed if not will there be required before the project is

40:56approved the study should evaluate the light impact on Marshall and church

41:02Street including the traffic during travel time parking will there be enough

41:06on-site parking for residents and their visitors in the nearby community a lack

41:11of parking can lead to vehicles parking along Church Street blocking access

41:16creative safe concerns creating safety concerns I ask that the town require

41:22adequate parting parking to prevent these problems there is an

41:27establishment established trucking business in the area its truck to leave

41:33early in the morning and return late in the evening this activity has exist for

41:39many years and should be taken into account even evaluated the proposal

41:44residential development will the development include an adequate setback

41:49landscape buffer sound reduced reduction measurement or a fence to

41:56reduce noise it is also important to consider whether the future resident may

42:01complained about normal truck operation that exists before the homes were built

42:06will sidewalks be installed along church Street and throughout the development

42:12pedestrians access and safety should be addressed before the construction begin

42:17especially for residential walking to nearby roads business or other

42:22destination how will the development affect stormwater runoff and drainage

42:26on neighborhood property will there be detailed drainage plans to require to

42:32ensure that existing home do not experience increased flooding erosion

42:36and standing water water affordable and housing design will the proposed home

42:42be generally attained for working families or will they be priced beyond

42:46the means of many residents I also ask you to consider whether the design size

42:52appearance and density will for duplex are compatible with the neighborhood

42:57thank you very much appreciate it and as always you're welcome to email us

43:02that as well if we didn't get all of that at the very end so anyone else

43:08signed up for this public hearing we do have signed up miss Medlin and mr. Marsh

43:12Brown but since you spoke earlier I have your comments and counsels

43:15considered thank you for speaking and that is the end of our signed-up

43:19speakers okay was there anyone else in the room who wants to speak on this

43:22subject okay seeing no one else I've entertained a motion to close the public

43:29hearing I make a motion that we close the public hearing I have a motion for

43:40my return we're body and second from council member Patel to close the

43:43public hearing all those in favor please say aye aye any opposed hearing none

43:47that carries unanimously six zero public hearing is now closed do we have any

43:51questions for staff or the applicant if you want to say something before you go

44:00ahead I apologize recognize Harrison Kathleen after you speak good evening

44:12Mayor Collie members of council Brian Griffin Parker Poe 301 Fayetteville

44:16Street on behalf of the applicant Middlebury communities I just wanted to

44:20address a couple of things that were mentioned during public comment and

44:23reassess and things that Jordan has said this is simply an annexation

44:27request for a little over two and a half acres it's about 7% of the entire

44:32subdivision plan so it's a small portion of that site this is being

44:37developed by right so this is not a rezoning request it's just the

44:40annexation and we are doing everything that is required by the UDO and that is

44:47under the subdivision process will we make make UDO requirements for setback

44:51buffers stormwater and those other UDO requirements thank you for sharing that

44:59I'd like to recognize councilmember Kessler so just a couple of questions

45:05here more so first that what would happen if this annexation was not

45:14approved tonight I understand that it's 7% of the of the entire subdivision but

45:21what impact would have if that 7% was not within the town limits I would

45:29defer to the developer to answer the question so the annexation request is

45:38managed to bring these three parcels into Pours Hills corporate limits to

45:43connect to water and sewer there are two access points where we are also

45:48bringing water from Church Street into the subdivision and sewer as well so

45:54really just what this would make for cohesive development with all the

45:58parcels being in the city limits there's also public streets that are

46:02proposed through the access of these Jordan pull this up yeah so through that

46:17one parcel on Church Street there will be a public street to access the

46:21development so this allows that to be in more corporate limits as well so if

46:29it was not approved tonight he told me you told me what would I guess the

46:35benefits of it was approved but if it wasn't approved how would you move

46:37forward I will call Spencer Merritt with Middleburg communities to address

46:44that question Spencer Merritt with Middleburg communities

47:002193 Breezer at Raleigh North Carolina if it was not approved tonight yeah I

47:06guess it would we'd have to rethink our site plan as it relates to access

47:10because there's certain unit counts related to a number of number of roads

47:15with fire access and things like that so we probably have to defer to staff on

47:20UDO impacts but since it's by right it wouldn't stop the necessarily the by

47:28right use other than just potential access issues potentially this is a

47:35question for staff on how those access issues would impact the services

47:42provided we can answer that question services in terms of public safety or

47:51yes so if if something was constructed there that was not in the town limits

47:57it really wouldn't change the fire response because the camp model and our

48:01our collective agreement with Wake County fire in terms of police response

48:06those would technically get a response from the Wake County Sheriff's Office

48:10rather than the Morrisville Police Department and then do we know how much

48:17the tax base would increase if this annexation were approved I don't know

48:26how the number currently but I could get that for you and then do we know how

48:32much the effort the how much the services and infrastructure costs would

48:36increase as a result of this annexation I can retrieve the information for you

48:41thank you so given right now that it's just an annexation it really nothing

48:51changes it's still vacant property the questions you're asking to be what

48:54related to if they plan if there was a development to come forward but right

48:58now we don't have a submittal so we really can't answer those questions any

49:07other questions for the apps into our staff any with our planning director

49:15like to address this body Michelle Stegel planning director sorry about that

49:24Michelle Stegel planning director just want to remind the council that this is

49:29an annexation only so the development proposal is not under consideration

49:34that will go through our normal process and per zoning it is owned low-density

49:40residential that zoning also applies on the county property that is not annexed

49:47now as well there's no other discussion or questions if we could put the

50:01language up would anyone like to make a motion I make the motion to adopt

50:11ordinance 2026 262 - 0 of the Morrisville town council pertaining to the extension

50:15of the town of Morrisville corporate limits to include property located at

50:20808 Church Street and Sierra Church Street a nx - 2 6 - 0 0 1 5

50:27thank you I'm a motion with the mayor of timber body a second from council

50:36responsible all those in favor please say aye aye any opposed okay that

50:43carries 96 0 as well thank you very much for coming out the applicant and

50:48look to our staff now we're going to move on to something a little bit

50:55different at this time we're going to be doing a buzz you judicial hearing so

51:05we're going to move to the public hearing on a special-use permit for the

51:08West Wake solid waste facility this hearing is an evidentiary hearing that

51:14means it is like a court hearing state law sets specific procedures and rules

51:18concerning how this council must make its decision these rules are different

51:23from other types of land use decisions like rezoning cases the council's

51:28discretion is the board must base this decision on competent relevant and

51:34substantial evidence in the record a quasi-judicial decision is not a matter

51:39of personal opinion it is a decision constrained by the standards in the

51:44development regulation and based on the facts presented if you will be speaking

51:49as a witness please focus on the facts and standards not personal preference or

51:54opinion participation is limited this meeting is open to the public everyone

52:00is welcome to watch parties withstanding have rights to participate

52:05fully parties may present evidence all witnesses and make sorry and make legal

52:12arguments parties are limited to the applicant the local government and

52:16individuals who can show they will suffer special damages other individuals

52:22may serve as witnesses when called by the board general witness testimony is

52:26limited to facts not opinions for certain topics this board needs to hear

52:31opinion testimony from expert witnesses these topics include projections about

52:36impacts on property values and projections about impacts of increased

52:40traffic individuals providing expert opinion must be qualified as experts

52:45and provide the factual evidence upon which they base their expert opinion

52:49witnesses must swear or affirm their testimony at this time we will

52:54administer the oath for all individuals who intend to provide witness

52:59testimony this time I'd like to recognize Tom Clark-Bertling who will

53:03administer the oath I'm gonna read the names of all those who have signed up

53:08to speak if you do not hear your name I'll need you to come forward so you

53:11can sign in first is Michelle Stegel Rachel Seiper Nick Kirkland Miranda

53:16Hotox Kenton Yang Paula Lopez Megan Baldwin Ray Baldwin Ken Murphy Brandon

53:22McCabb Kevin Dean Kevin Barnes and finally Patrick Gilbert is there anyone

53:28in the audience who intends to speak on this item that has not signed in alright

54:14if I did call your name please stand we're gonna swear you in all at once do

54:23you strongly swear or affirm that the evidence you shall give the board in

54:27this action shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help

54:30you God thank you thank you very much thank you everyone who will be speak on

54:40this matter I have a few more things to read the parties this case are entitled

54:45to an impartial board a board member may not participate in this hearing if

54:50she or he has a fixed opinion about the matter a financial interest in the

54:54outcome of the matter or a close relationship with an affected person

54:57does any board member have any partiality to disclose and recusal to

55:02offer seeing none the parties this case have rights for any ex parte

55:12communication to be disclosed ex parte communication is any communication about

55:17the case outside of the hearing that may include site visits as well as

55:22conversations with parties that or the general public does any board member

55:26have any site visits to disclose seeing none does any board member have any

55:33conversations or other communications to disclose seeing none based on the

55:41disclosures we've heard from the board concerning partiality and ex parte

55:47communications which is none does any member of the board or any party to

55:50this matter have an objection to the board members participation in this

55:53hearing okay no objections have been raised okay now we're going to be

56:02moving forward thank you for your patience we now invite Rachel cypher

56:05plan or two to the podium before you begin please confirm that you were

56:09sworn in yes okay the applicant way County will now present evidence and

56:15legal arguments in the support of the request after she's done presenting her

56:18portion there's yours thank you good evening mayor and members of the

56:23council I'm Rachel cypher and tonight I'm going to be presenting the special

56:27use permit for the West Wing solid waste facility the applicant on behalf

56:32of the special use permit is way County and they are here and will be making a

56:36presentation directly after mine so this special use permit request is for

56:44414 aviation Parkway this is for a major utility facility this would

56:49accommodate the development and operation of the future West Wing solid

56:53waste facility the subject parcel is outlined here in red currently it is

57:02home of the town of Morrisville Public Works facility that green area that you

57:07can see within that red outline is vacant wooded lot currently this map is

57:17just to provide a little bit of context so the pink area highlighted is town

57:22of Morrisville's jurisdiction and then the green area is town of Kerry's

57:26jurisdiction so south and east of this parcel is located within town of Kerry's

57:32jurisdiction and it's the zoned resource recreation to preserve open space the

57:40rest of the zoning within the town of Morrisville zoning or jurisdiction can be

57:44seen here so as previously mentioned this parcel is located in the town of

57:49Morrisville's industrial management zoning district which per the unified

57:54development ordinance requires a special use permit for a major utility

57:58facility just a couple more things about the property it's just over 13 and a

58:05half acres and the current way County convenience center is located just under

58:11half a mile away located on aviation Parkway as well so you may recall this

58:18address coming for a special use permit back in October of 2024 that was

58:24when a special use permit was approved for a joint way County convenience

58:28center and the town of Morrisville's Public Works facility that special use

58:32permit expired in October of 2025 so one year after that was approved which is

58:38why a new special use permit application is required the proposed

58:43development is different for this special use permit it is no longer

58:47incorporating the Public Works building that was proposed in the last special

58:50use permit here's the proposed development so there's one entrance in

59:03and out of the site and that's located at the intersection of International

59:07Drive and Aviation Parkway there is just over 1,400 feet of an internal site

59:15drive that you can see coming into the facility that allows vehicles to stack

59:20inside of the proposed development instead of aviation Parkway so they're

59:26not all lined up on the street there's two arrows here pointing to different

59:32portions of the development so on the left you can see the household hazardous

59:37waste facility and then on the right you can see the expanded convenience

59:40center the Public Works yard is still going to be on the parcel and operating

59:49the front building will be demolished to make way for this internal site drive

59:54for the proposed development

1:00:00- So there was a TIA or traffic impact analysis

1:00:03conducted and approved for this site.

1:00:08I'm gonna kind of go through some of those key points here.

1:00:11So first being that the Solid Waste Facility

1:00:16will intersect with Aviation Parkway

1:00:18and International Drive.

1:00:20So there will be a modified traffic signal

1:00:25to allow for, 'cause currently the Public Works facility

1:00:28is not part of that signalized intersection.

1:00:31It will be with this proposed project.

1:00:35And then a constructive right turn lane

1:00:39from Aviation Parkway into the facility.

1:00:42And then a left turn lane into the facility as well.

1:00:46And then a combination of a left turn lane

1:00:48and a through/right turn lane leaving the facility

1:00:52to either Aviation Parkway or International Drive.

1:00:56And then as previously mentioned, that modification

1:00:59to that traffic signal to accommodate for this new facility.

1:01:05So as part of this special use permit,

1:01:06there are three conditions.

1:01:08I'm going to go through each of these.

1:01:11That will be conditions if you approve

1:01:12the special use permit.

1:01:15The first being that Wake County will construct

1:01:18the recommended road improvements as identified

1:01:20in the traffic impact analysis.

1:01:22This would be prior to the receipt

1:01:24of any certification of occupancy or final plot approval.

1:01:28So they would not be able to get their CO

1:01:29until these improvements have been made.

1:01:34The second being realigning and reconstructing the entrance

1:01:39so that the signalized intersection incorporates

1:01:44the ingress and egress of the West Wake Solid Waste facility.

1:01:48And then the third is that the proposed development

1:01:52will be consistent with the site plan.

1:01:58So I'm going to read each of the seven

1:02:01special use permit review standards.

1:02:02These are in section 2.5.6.D of the UDO.

1:02:06Each of these need to be met in order to be granted

1:02:09a special use permit.

1:02:11The applicant will be running through each of these seven

1:02:16review standards and how they meet each one of them

1:02:19after I'm done presenting.

1:02:21So I'm just going to read each one of these.

1:02:23The first is that the proposed development

1:02:25will not materially endanger the public health or safety.

1:02:28The proposed development will comply with all regulations

1:02:31and standards generally applicable within the zoning district

1:02:34and specifically applicable to the particular type

1:02:36of special use.

1:02:38The proposed development will not substantially

1:02:40endure the value of adjoining property

1:02:42or is it public necessity.

1:02:44The proposed development will be in harmony

1:02:46with the intensity, scale, and character

1:02:48of development existing or planned in the surrounding area.

1:02:52The proposed development will not cause

1:02:54undue traffic congestion or create a traffic hazard.

1:02:58The proposed development will not generate needs

1:03:00for transportation, water supply, sewage disposal,

1:03:04fire and police protection, and similar public services

1:03:07that cannot be adequately handled by available

1:03:09infrastructure and facilities.

1:03:11And finally, the proposed development will be consistent

1:03:14with the comprehensive plan.

1:03:17So staff recommends the approval of the special use permit

1:03:20with the following three conditions

1:03:22that I just briefly went over and that concludes

1:03:26my presentation and like I said, the applicant is here

1:03:28and he'll be making a presentation as well.

1:03:35- Okay, the applicant wants to identify themselves.

1:03:48Some words, the applicant at Wake County

1:03:49will now present evidence and legal arguments

1:03:51in support of their request.

1:03:53As a reminder, any evidence and argument must focus

1:03:56upon the applicable standards.

1:03:58For you again, please state for the record your name,

1:04:00address and relations of the case

1:04:02and confirm that you were sworn in, sir.

1:04:07- Good evening, Mr. Mayor, council members.

1:04:11I'm Ken Murphy, senior deputy Wake County attorney

1:04:15here tonight on behalf of the applicant, Wake County.

1:04:19And I am pleased to be before council tonight

1:04:22representing the county and its application

1:04:25for a special use permit for Wake County to construct

1:04:29the West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:04:32at 414 Aviation Parkway in Morrisville.

1:04:36- And if I could just have you confirm

1:04:38for the record that you were sworn in.

1:04:41- Yes, Mr. Mayor.

1:04:42- Thank you. - Thank you.

1:04:44- I want to thank Ms. Cipher for her excellent report

1:04:48and presentation to council.

1:04:49I don't want to duplicate too much of what she said,

1:04:52but I want to give a very basic forecast

1:04:56of the evidence to council.

1:04:58And then you will hear from several members

1:05:00of the design team who will give testimony

1:05:04on each of the seven required standards

1:05:07for this special use permit.

1:05:10Now, the West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:05:12will provide the residents of Morrisville

1:05:15with the opportunity to safely and conveniently dispose

1:05:19of household trash and recycling.

1:05:22Wake County currently manages 11 convenience centers,

1:05:26three multi-material recycling facilities,

1:05:30and 11 household hazardous waste,

1:05:34and three household hazardous waste facilities

1:05:37located all around Wake County.

1:05:40And the West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:05:43will incorporate all three of those elements

1:05:46into this new facility to serve the citizens of Morrisville.

1:05:51As Ms. Cipher indicated in his council as well aware,

1:05:55the West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:05:58will be constructed on property owned

1:06:00by the town of Morrisville,

1:06:01located at 414 Aviation Parkway.

1:06:05Significantly, Wake County, for the last 30 years,

1:06:09has operated a convenience center,

1:06:12essentially a smaller scale version

1:06:15of what we're bringing to council

1:06:18for approval this evening,

1:06:20without some of the features of the new project.

1:06:25The existing Wake County Convenience Center,

1:06:27which has operated for 30 years in Morrisville,

1:06:31is located about three tenths of a mile away

1:06:35at 266 Aviation Parkway.

1:06:38Now, this convenience center facility

1:06:42is starting to show its age and needs to be replaced

1:06:46with a larger, more modern, more efficient facility

1:06:51to better serve the citizens of Morrisville,

1:06:54which as council was well aware,

1:06:56is one of the fastest growing municipalities

1:06:59in North Carolina.

1:07:00And to accomplish this,

1:07:02the county will lease a portion of 414 Aviation Parkway,

1:07:08about 6.7 acres of the parcel from the town,

1:07:14and the county will construct

1:07:15the new West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:07:18on a portion of this town owned parcel.

1:07:21Now, all this brings us to why

1:07:23we are before council this evening.

1:07:26As Ms. Cipher indicated,

1:07:29the town of Morrisville planning staff

1:07:32pursuant to the Morrisville UDO

1:07:35has determined that the West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:07:39is a major utility facility per the Morrisville UDO,

1:07:45which requires a special use permit

1:07:48in the Industrial Management Zoning District,

1:07:51and the subject parcel at 414 Aviation Parkway

1:07:56is zoned industrial management.

1:07:59So, Wake County's objective tonight

1:08:01is to address the seven required standards

1:08:04found in your UDO that council must find

1:08:08in order to grant the special use permit

1:08:10to allow the county to construct

1:08:12the West Wake Solid Waste Facility.

1:08:16And to that end,

1:08:17I have with me tonight several people

1:08:20who have been instrumental in the planning and design

1:08:23of the proposed West Wake Solid Waste Facility,

1:08:28and I wanna recognize them briefly

1:08:31to the council at this time.

1:08:33Some of them you will hear from tonight.

1:08:36All of them have been sworn

1:08:38and are prepared to answer any questions

1:08:40that council may have for them.

1:08:42But first of all, Roy Baldwin,

1:08:45who is a program manager

1:08:47in Wake County's Solid Waste Management Division is here.

1:08:51Megan Baldwin, also a program manager

1:08:54for the County's Solid Waste Management Division is here.

1:08:59Paolo Lopez, who is the project manager for this project

1:09:04from Wake County Facilities Design and Construction

1:09:07is present.

1:09:09Kevin Barnes, a landscape architect

1:09:12from the Timmons Group,

1:09:13who is the landscape designer

1:09:16for the West Wake Solid Waste Facility Project is here.

1:09:21Brandon Lamb, a professional engineer

1:09:24from the Timmons Group,

1:09:25who is the project site civil engineer is present.

1:09:30Miranda Potthoff, AIA, an architect from SA Architects,

1:09:35who is the project architect is here.

1:09:39Kenton Yang, also a professional engineer

1:09:41from SCS Engineers who has served

1:09:44as the project manager for this project is here.

1:09:48And last but not least, our two expert witnesses,

1:09:52Nick Kirkland from Kirkland Appraisals,

1:09:54a North Carolina certified general real estate appraiser

1:09:59is here, as well as Kevin Dean,

1:10:02a professional engineer and a traffic engineer

1:10:05from Kenley Horn,

1:10:06who prepared the traffic impact analysis for this project.

1:10:13And with no further ado,

1:10:14I'd like to call my first witness if it please the mayor.

1:10:19I don't see any questions for this gentleman.

1:10:21So yes, thanks. Keep it moving.

1:10:22Thank you.

1:10:23Okay, I'd like to call Roy Baldwin.

1:10:28And Mr. Baldwin is going to be providing testimony

1:10:31to council on special use permit standard one.

1:10:37The proposed development will not endanger

1:10:39public health or safety.

1:10:42On special use permit standard three,

1:10:45the proposed development is a public necessity.

1:10:49And also on special use permit standard six,

1:10:53the proposed development will not generate needs

1:10:55for public services that cannot adequately be handled

1:11:00by available infrastructure and facilities.

1:11:04Okay, Mr. Baldwin, before you begin,

1:11:07can you please state for the record your name,

1:11:09your address and your relation to the case

1:11:10and confirm that you were sworn in?

1:11:12I sure can.

1:11:13Roy Baldwin, I live at 2924 Bridge Drive,

1:11:16Raleigh, Carolina, and I was sworn in.

1:11:19I am a program manager for Wake County.

1:11:20I've been there for 21 years

1:11:22and every one of our convenience center upgrades

1:11:24I have been part of.

1:11:27Okay, in order to cover standard number one,

1:11:30I wanted to read some notes that I made here for you guys.

1:11:32The proposed West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:11:35will not materially endanger public health or safety.

1:11:38It will replace the county's existing convenience center

1:11:40at 266 Aviation Parkway,

1:11:43which has served residential users in this area

1:11:46for approximately 30 years.

1:11:48A major safety improvement is the vehicle queuing.

1:11:51The existing site has about 130 feet of queuing space

1:11:54or roughly seven pickups.

1:11:56The proposed facility will provide more than 1,400 feet

1:12:00or approximately 58 vehicles,

1:12:02along with six drop-off bays in separate circulation

1:12:05for customers and the service vehicles.

1:12:08The facility will also accept household hazardous waste,

1:12:11including paints, batteries, pesticides, chemicals,

1:12:14and similar materials that should not go

1:12:16to the regular trash or into the recycling.

1:12:18These materials will be sorted by train staff,

1:12:21stored temporarily in secured areas,

1:12:24and transported off-site by a qualified vendor.

1:12:27Flammable materials will be kept

1:12:28in specially designed storage units

1:12:31with fire suppression and secondary containment units.

1:12:34Wake County already uses these practices

1:12:36at three other HHW facilities.

1:12:39The site will also include security fencing,

1:12:41lock gates, 24-hour, seven-day-a-week camera monitoring.

1:12:45Bottom line for number one is this facility

1:12:48improves the traffic safety,

1:12:49provides a control improvement system

1:12:51for safely managing household hazardous waste.

1:12:54It is a huge upgrade for equipment and servicing block.

1:13:00For section two, public necessity.

1:13:03From a solid waste perspective,

1:13:05this facility is a public necessity.

1:13:07It will provide residents with a moderate location

1:13:10to dispose household waste, recyclable materials,

1:13:13and safely manage household hazardous waste.

1:13:15Recycling through this facility

1:13:17helps divert material from the county landfill,

1:13:19which has a finite capacity and a limited lifespan.

1:13:23It also gives residents a safe alternative

1:13:25for hazardous waste materials

1:13:27that should not be placed in regular garbage

1:13:29or potentially illegally dumped.

1:13:32This facility will provide an essential public service,

1:13:34supports recycling and safe HHW disposal

1:13:39and help preserve Wake County's limited landfill capacity.

1:13:45Finally, for section six, public infrastructure and services.

1:13:49The proposed facility will create limited

1:13:51and manageable demands on transportation,

1:13:53water, sewer, fire, police,

1:13:55and any other public services provided by Marshall.

1:13:59It will serve residential customers only,

1:14:01using personal vehicles

1:14:02and is replacing the existing convenience center

1:14:05less than a half a mile away.

1:14:07Water and sewer demands will be minimal,

1:14:08consisting mainly of hose-bip connections,

1:14:11fire protection, an eyewash station,

1:14:13and a one-staff restroom

1:14:15serving four to five attendants per day.

1:14:18Fire and police needs are expected to be no greater

1:14:20than those associated with the existing facility.

1:14:23More school fire and police stations

1:14:25are within a mile of that existing facility.

1:14:29Finally, this project is replacing

1:14:31and modernizing an existing county service

1:14:33and its public service demands can be adequately handled

1:14:36by available infrastructure.

1:14:40Do you have any questions for me?

1:14:44- I do not see any questions on those three items.

1:14:47Thank you for your presentation.

1:14:48- Okay.

1:14:52- And Town Clerk Burton, can you put up the seven items

1:14:55just so that when they're talking toward somebody can,

1:14:58thank you, appreciate it.

1:15:01- Okay, thank you, Mr. Mayor, Council.

1:15:04At this time, the county would call Kevin Barnes,

1:15:07landscape architect from the Timmons Group,

1:15:10the project's landscape designer.

1:15:12And Mr. Barnes will be providing testimony to council

1:15:16on special use permit standard one,

1:15:19the proposed development will not endanger

1:15:21public health or safety.

1:15:23And two, the proposed development will comply

1:15:26with all applicable zoning regulations and standards.

1:15:31- Welcome, Mr. Barnes.

1:15:32Before you begin, please state for the record,

1:15:35your name, address, and relation to the case

1:15:37and confirm that you're sworn in.

1:15:40- My name's Kevin Barnes.

1:15:42I'm a landscape architect with Timmons Group.

1:15:44We're at 5410 Trinity Road in Raleigh,

1:15:49and I've been sworn in.

1:15:51- Thank you.

1:15:54- I've been working on this project for about three years

1:15:58to address the proposed development

1:16:01will not materially endanger the public health or safety.

1:16:05I think actually Roy did a good job

1:16:09of seeing that that was even answered.

1:16:14So I don't think that I need,

1:16:16I want to add anything to that

1:16:19on I think the second special use review standard.

1:16:26The proposed development will comply with all relations

1:16:28and standard generally applicable to the zoning district

1:16:31and specifically applicable to the type

1:16:34of special use per special use.

1:16:39This facility will be,

1:16:42well, this is the fourth of the other facilities

1:16:47within Wake County.

1:16:49As such, there have been lessons learned

1:16:51with the other facilities.

1:16:53This is gonna be a really nice facility here for Morrisville.

1:16:58I don't think I need to add any more to that.

1:17:01Other than a lot of the facilities

1:17:05that we've designed for Wake County,

1:17:10they're being used now.

1:17:12This facility is gonna be,

1:17:14well, we've learned a lot of lessons.

1:17:16So this facility would be a nice facility.

1:17:21- Really just the best facility, right?

1:17:23In Wake County.

1:17:24- What's that?

1:17:25- In your opinion, the best facility in Wake County.

1:17:28- We'll see.

1:17:29- We'll see, okay.

1:17:40- Next I'd like to call Brandon McGlam,

1:17:42professional engineer from the Timmons Group,

1:17:45the project's site civil engineer.

1:17:48And Mr. McGlam will be providing testimony

1:17:51to council on special use permit standard two.

1:17:54The proposed development will comply

1:17:56with all applicable zoning regulations and standards

1:18:01and special use permit standard six.

1:18:03The proposed development will not generate needs

1:18:06for public services that cannot be adequately handled

1:18:10by available infrastructure and facilities.

1:18:15- Welcome, and for the director,

1:18:17your name, address, relation to the case,

1:18:18and confirm that you're sworn in, please, sir.

1:18:21- Brandon McGlam, 5410 Trinity Road, Raleigh,

1:18:27have been sworn in, and you asked me one more thing, right?

1:18:30- Your relation to the case.

1:18:31- Relation to the case.

1:18:32I am the professional engineer record,

1:18:35specifically related to civil site.

1:18:39For special use permit review standards,

1:18:41number two, that's been discussed

1:18:43by a couple of people already.

1:18:45I will say my relation to that is that we work hand-in-hand

1:18:48with town staff to make sure that all of those are,

1:18:52all of those standards and zonings and codes

1:18:54are complied with that is in the zoning coordinates

1:18:57associated with that particular use.

1:19:00So we have done that to date,

1:19:03and we'll continue to do that as the project gets permitted.

1:19:09Number six is the other one I'll speak with.

1:19:12Development will not generate needs

1:19:13for transportation, water, sewage,

1:19:16fire and police protection,

1:19:18and similar public services that can't be handled

1:19:23by available infrastructure.

1:19:24So we take those individually.

1:19:26Transportation will have a TIA expert come up

1:19:31and talk about the TIA here shortly,

1:19:35but from a compliance standpoint,

1:19:37we work with the town of Morrisville as well as NCDOT

1:19:41to comply with all of those standards related to,

1:19:44that are also in conjunction with the TIA

1:19:47so that we meet needs there.

1:19:50Water supply, we're tying into a water main

1:19:53long aviation parkway,

1:19:55so that infrastructure is currently there.

1:19:58Sewer is a similar, sewer is closed,

1:20:00and we have designed sewer for the project as well.

1:20:04Those will be coordinated with town of Morrisville

1:20:06in conjunction with the town of Cary

1:20:09who owns those facilities.

1:20:11So we will be permitting those through them.

1:20:13And as mentioned previously,

1:20:15no additional fire and police protection will be needed

1:20:21as the existing facility is close by.

1:20:25That would be it for me.

1:20:29- Any questions for this gentleman?

1:20:32Okay, thank you.

1:20:39For its fourth witness,

1:20:40the applicant calls Miranda Potthoff from SA Architects.

1:20:46The project's architect of record.

1:20:49This Potthoff will speak to council

1:20:51about some of the design elements of the project.

1:20:54They go to special use review standard

1:20:57for the proposed development will be in harmony

1:21:00with the intensity, scale, and character of development

1:21:03existing or planned in the surrounding area.

1:21:09Thank you for joining us.

1:21:10Your name, address, relation to the case,

1:21:12and please confirm that you're sworn in.

1:21:14- Hi, my name's Miranda Potthoff with SA Architects

1:21:18at 632 Pershing Road in Raleigh.

1:21:21I'm the architect for the new buildings

1:21:23that'll be on our site

1:21:24and have been involved in the project since 2019,

1:21:27and I was sworn in.

1:21:28- Thank you.

1:21:30- The design team has made a significant effort

1:21:32to be good neighbors to the surrounding uses to this site

1:21:36through our site design meeting the intensity

1:21:38and dimensional standards for our zoning district

1:21:41and complying with the UDO requirements

1:21:44for the building configuration and design in section 5.9.

1:21:48Wake County has been operating the existing

1:21:50solid waste collection area

1:21:52less than half a mile down the road

1:21:54from our planned location for over 30 years,

1:21:56which we've heard from Ken.

1:21:58Other nearby uses include industrial trucking

1:22:01and distribution, lawn care, junk collection,

1:22:05concrete plant, government and town services

1:22:08and departments, your town hall, fire, planning,

1:22:12engineering, as well as public works,

1:22:14and then open space to the east of our site.

1:22:17On our site, in our site plan, the collection areas

1:22:20that we're proposing will be located further

1:22:22from Aviation Parkway while the office uses

1:22:25are located closer to Aviation,

1:22:27which will be a little bit more visible

1:22:28to people traveling down that road.

1:22:31We've also met with Town Horesville Planning

1:22:33on several occasions, just to be sure

1:22:36that our confirmed approach to compliance within the UDO

1:22:40for the architectural components is a sound approach.

1:22:45The county's solid waste facilities

1:22:47typically follow a standard prototype design

1:22:49across all of their convenience centers

1:22:52and multi-materials and household hazardous waste

1:22:55collection areas, and we wanted to be sure

1:22:57that those designs of their prototypes

1:23:00complied within the UDO as well.

1:23:02So we have made some adjustments

1:23:04to this particular project as far as proportions

1:23:07of predominant and non-predominant facade materials

1:23:10and finisteration percentages to comply

1:23:13with sections 5.9.4 and 5.9.5.

1:23:18And the materials that we select

1:23:19for these solid waste facility projects

1:23:22are selected based on proven durability

1:23:24and impact resistance in these highly used environments.

1:23:28Those materials were selected to be appropriate

1:23:31for that level of durability needed,

1:23:33but also be in compliance with the materials

1:23:36allowed by the UDO.

1:23:37Our exterior materials will include high quality materials

1:23:41such as integrally colored concrete masonry units,

1:23:45architectural metal wall panels,

1:23:47cast in place concrete and steel.

1:23:50So this solid waste facility will architecturally

1:23:52and aesthetically be in harmony

1:23:55with the character of the surrounding area

1:23:57and in compliance with the UDO as well.

1:24:00Thank you.

1:24:02- Any questions for her and the architecture team?

1:24:07- Okay.

1:24:08- Thank you very much.

1:24:14We are nearing the end of our witnesses.

1:24:16I just have two more to go.

1:24:18And at this time, the applicant calls Nick Kirkland

1:24:23and Mr. Kirkland is going to provide testimony

1:24:27to council on special use permit standards three.

1:24:32The proposed use will not substantially

1:24:34injure the value of adjoining property.

1:24:36And also four, the proposed development

1:24:39will be in harmony with the intensity scale

1:24:41and character of development existing or planned

1:24:43in the surrounding area.

1:24:48- Your name, address, role,

1:24:49and that you're sworn in, please, sir.

1:24:51- Yes, my name is Nick Kirkland with Kirkland Appraisals.

1:24:55My address is 9408 Northfield Court, Raleigh, North Carolina.

1:25:00I'm the appraiser who was hired to do an impact study

1:25:03and I was sworn.

1:25:07- Mr. Kirkland, can you tell council,

1:25:09we've already said your name,

1:25:11but can you tell council your qualifications

1:25:13as a North Carolina general real estate appraiser?

1:25:16- Yes, so I'm a state certified general appraiser

1:25:19in the state of North Carolina.

1:25:20That's the highest the state offers.

1:25:22I also have that designation in seven other states.

1:25:26I've been accepted as an expert in property value impacts

1:25:29for proposed uses against proposed uses

1:25:32in multiple states in total 300 or 400 times

1:25:36before this court on a number of occasions.

1:25:40- At this time, I would offer Mr. Kirkland

1:25:43as an expert witness in the valuation and appraisal

1:25:48of real property in North Carolina.

1:25:52- Do we need to accept that us or you?

1:25:57Okay, do we need to take a vote

1:25:58to accept him as an expert?

1:26:00Okay, thank you very much for stating that.

1:26:03You can give us your thoughts at this time.

1:26:06- Mr. Kirkland, were you asked by the applicant,

1:26:08Wake County, to consider the likely impact

1:26:12the proposed West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:26:15would have on adjoining properties?

1:26:17- Yes.

1:26:19- And did you form an opinion as to whether

1:26:21the proposed new West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:26:26would substantially enter the value of adjoining properties?

1:26:30- Yes.

1:26:31- And what is that opinion?

1:26:33- It's my professional opinion that the proposed development

1:26:37would not substantially enter the value of adjoining property.

1:26:40- And can you explain for council the basis for your opinion?

1:26:44- Yeah, I'd be happy to.

1:26:46So we were hired by the county to determine

1:26:49whether or not this would have an impact.

1:26:52Though the standard is for a public necessity,

1:26:55they wanted to know whether or not

1:26:56it would have an impact or not.

1:26:59And so, in abundance of caution,

1:27:01we were hired to find out.

1:27:03So we did a paired sale analysis

1:27:05where we looked at existing convenience centers

1:27:07in the county, as well as other counties,

1:27:09and found sales and homes right next door,

1:27:12and compared those to other nearby homes

1:27:14that were not next to the convenience centers.

1:27:16If you've ever had your house or your land appraised,

1:27:18you know that the appraiser's gonna find

1:27:19several comparables to compare your property to.

1:27:22And based on those, get an indication

1:27:24of your property's value.

1:27:26We're doing a very similar thing.

1:27:27We identify a property that's sold

1:27:29next to a convenience center.

1:27:30We find several nearby comparables and say,

1:27:33based on these, the one next to the convenience center

1:27:35should have sold for about this much.

1:27:37And whether it's sold for more, less, or about the same,

1:27:40provides an indication of impact or no impact.

1:27:44We've got a number of examples within the impact study,

1:27:47but again, as previously stated,

1:27:49it's my professional opinion that the proposed use

1:27:52would not substantially injure

1:27:53the value of adjoining property.

1:27:55The examples that we found in the county,

1:27:59almost unilaterally, all have houses closer,

1:28:02in an order of magnitude of four to 10 times closer

1:28:06than the closest homes to this.

1:28:08And they're not showing an impact to their property values,

1:28:11so there's no basis for an impact

1:28:12to any of the joining uses to this property.

1:28:16And additionally, we were asked to determine

1:28:18whether or not this would be in harmony

1:28:20where it's proposed to be located.

1:28:22And as part of the research that we've done,

1:28:24we've looked at externalities or causes of potential impact

1:28:28outside of the property that could cause an impact

1:28:30on other nearby properties.

1:28:32And there's no basis for an impact

1:28:34to any of the adjoining uses.

1:28:36And additionally, the adjoining use breakdown

1:28:41or the most common adjoining uses

1:28:42to convenience centers in the county

1:28:45are residential uses or like commercial uses,

1:28:48which is very similar to what's proposed here.

1:28:51Also given that there's historically been

1:28:54a convenience center in close proximity to this,

1:28:56it's my professional opinion that the proposed use

1:28:59will be in harmony where it's proposed to be located.

1:29:02I know it's kind of a lot.

1:29:03I'm happy to answer any questions that you may have.

1:29:05That's all I have prepared.

1:29:08- Any questions for the expert appraiser?

1:29:13Seeing none, thank you.

1:29:14- Thank you.

1:29:22- Okay, last but not least,

1:29:24the applicant calls Kevin Deane,

1:29:26P.E., a traffic engineer from Kintley Corn

1:29:29who prepared the traffic impact analysis

1:29:33for the Westwaite Solid Waste Facility Project.

1:29:36Mr. Deane will be speaking to counsel

1:29:39on special use permits standard five.

1:29:42The proposed development will not cause

1:29:45undue traffic congestion or create a traffic hazard.

1:29:51Welcome back to the, I think you know what to say.

1:29:53- Yes, sir, good evening.

1:29:54Kevin Deane, Kintley-Warren, 1070 South Main Street

1:29:57in Holly Springs.

1:29:58I'm a project traffic engineer and I was sworn in.

1:30:03- Okay, Mr. Deane, can you tell counsel

1:30:06your professional qualifications as a traffic engineer?

1:30:11- Yes, sir, I have a bachelor's degree

1:30:13in civil engineering from NC State.

1:30:15I've a registered professional engineer

1:30:17in the state of North Carolina

1:30:18and I've been performing traffic analyses for 15 years.

1:30:22- And at this point, I would ask counsel

1:30:24to accept Mr. Deane as an expert witness

1:30:28in traffic engineering and traffic impact analysis.

1:30:34Would have any objection, we'll accept that.

1:30:38Seeing no objection, thank you.

1:30:42Mr. Deane, were you asked to prepare

1:30:44a traffic impact analysis or TIA in connection

1:30:48with the West Wake Solid Waste Facility?

1:30:51- Yes, sir.

1:30:53- And did you form an opinion as to whether

1:30:56the proposed West Wake Solid Waste Facility

1:30:59would cause undue traffic congestion

1:31:02or create a traffic hazard?

1:31:04- I did.

1:31:06- And what is that opinion?

1:31:07- It is my professional opinion that the proposed development

1:31:10will not cause undue traffic congestion

1:31:13or create a traffic hazard.

1:31:15- And can you please briefly explain

1:31:17for counsel the basis for that opinion?

1:31:19- Absolutely.

1:31:21Good evening, Kevin Deane.

1:31:22We were engaged by the County to perform an update

1:31:25to the traffic analysis that we had performed

1:31:27for the previous iteration of the project

1:31:30consistent with your standards and NCBOT standards.

1:31:33We had preliminary scoping discussions

1:31:35with talent staff and NCBOT staff.

1:31:38We collected updated traffic counts.

1:31:41And as part of our analysis,

1:31:42we accounted for traffic growth in the area.

1:31:45We accounted for the traffic associated with this project

1:31:48and we used synchro analysis software

1:31:50to perform those analyses.

1:31:53Our analysis in combination with talent and NCBOT reviews

1:31:58identified a number of improvements

1:32:00at the intersection of Aviation Parkway

1:32:02at International Drive and this proposed site driveway

1:32:05to accommodate the project traffic.

1:32:07With those improvements and our traffic in place,

1:32:10we're expecting the intersection to operate acceptably.

1:32:13You've already heard other members of the team

1:32:15talk about additional benefits that are being provided.

1:32:18The amount of onsite stacking increases

1:32:20by almost 10 times and it helps keep traffic

1:32:24off of Aviation Parkway with that increased stacking distance

1:32:27and you've heard that the intersection

1:32:29will be under traffic signal control

1:32:32where the existing Public Works facility

1:32:35is offset from that traffic signal at a stop sign.

1:32:39So based on all our analysis, talent and NCBOT reviews,

1:32:43it is my opinion, again, that this project

1:32:46will not cause undue traffic congestion

1:32:48or create a traffic hazard.

1:32:53- So we have a couple of questions, Mr. Dean.

1:32:55I'll start with Councilmember Garamiello,

1:32:57followed by Councilmember Scargins-Johnson,

1:32:59followed by Councilmember Patel.

1:33:02- Welcome back.

1:33:06When is this project getting completed

1:33:08so that I know the timelines that doesn't fall

1:33:13and when the expansion of Aviation is going to happen?

1:33:18- So it's my understanding that the project

1:33:20will be completed prior to the construction

1:33:23of the Aviation Parkway widening.

1:33:24So when we ran our analysis, we did not include

1:33:28the widening associated with Aviation Parkway.

1:33:31Site plans have been prepared to accommodate

1:33:33that widening of the future, but to be conservative,

1:33:36our analysis didn't include those lanes

1:33:38'cause that would be a worst case scenario

1:33:40to have fewer lanes on Aviation

1:33:41and still handling the same amount of traffic at our site.

1:33:44So our project will precede Aviation Parkway widening.

1:33:50- So which means you had to follow the standards

1:33:53of turn lanes and everything that you had to do?

1:33:55- Yes, sir.

1:33:57- And so basically, the only reason I'm asking is

1:34:04that initially we were talking about the Aviation,

1:34:08we were told because of the site being a lower level,

1:34:12they had to be raised up.

1:34:14And so I just wanted to know how the whole thing

1:34:18is going to work with you all.

1:34:20It's to not be going to a floodplain kind of situation.

1:34:24- Yeah, I can't speak to the site design

1:34:25and somebody else might be able to talk to that.

1:34:27I do know that the turn lanes will be provided initially

1:34:30and our team has been coordinating with the NCDOT group

1:34:33who's doing the Aviation Parkway widening

1:34:35as part of Project New 5811.

1:34:38So they're coordinated efforts,

1:34:42but there will be appropriate laneage

1:34:43when this project opens.

1:34:45- And will you be having sidewalk on the other side,

1:34:50like putting your property line?

1:34:57- I'll let the other Kevin answer his question,

1:34:59if you don't mind.

1:35:01Mr. Barnes is going to come to dress, your question.

1:35:14- Kevin Barnes with Temps Group Landscape Architect

1:35:19worked on the project as far as grading early on.

1:35:24So your first question about the grading difference,

1:35:31we received the plans for Aviation Parkway,

1:35:35probably at 30% plans, maybe two years ago.

1:35:39At that time, it did appear that average,

1:35:44there was around a three foot increase

1:35:48and the height of that road.

1:35:53So we've made those accommodations

1:35:56to kind of comply with that.

1:35:58Some of those plans may have changed,

1:36:01they're in production now.

1:36:04And then your other question about the--

1:36:09- Sidewalks.

1:36:11- I'm sorry.

1:36:12- Sidewalks.

1:36:13- Sidewalk.

1:36:14Yeah, so there is a 10 foot multi-use sidewalk plan

1:36:18that is part of that, those plans for U58.

1:36:22U58 11, which is the Aviation Parkway plan improvements.

1:36:26- So it's not part of their plans then?

1:36:28- Correct.

1:36:31But we have made accommodations for that.

1:36:33There is a portion of that 10 foot multi-use plan

1:36:39that crosses, it's actually over on the north side

1:36:45of the brighter way that we're dedicating

1:36:47for this new, the Aviation Parkway improvements.

1:36:53But it's not part of our plans.

1:36:57- So are you guys doing parkland payment in lieu

1:37:00or anything?

1:37:01Or basically the reason--

1:37:01- Council Member Geller-Melo,

1:37:03will you please bring your mic closer to you?

1:37:05Thank you.

1:37:06- So are you guys doing any road improvements like BILs?

1:37:10Like the reason I asked that is,

1:37:14my first question to Kevin, another given was

1:37:16when is this project going to complete?

1:37:18So obviously your project has yet completed before

1:37:21and then the aviation is coming later.

1:37:24So as a rule of thumb, we always, whoever goes first

1:37:28has to do those improvements.

1:37:29But you're kind of waiting for the aviation widening

1:37:34and then using those changes as part of it.

1:37:37Is that my understanding?

1:37:39- So the multi-use path is something that is part

1:37:44of the U58 11 plans,

1:37:47which is the Aviation Parkway improvements.

1:37:50We've made accommodations at our,

1:37:54where the entrance would be for those improvements,

1:37:58like curb cuts, but not,

1:38:01we're not proposing a multi-use path with this development.

1:38:05- But the only reason I'm asking is like,

1:38:09we asked the other developers to do that.

1:38:12You know, we have a JustNC and others,

1:38:14like we told them to make the turn lanes and other stuff.

1:38:18So this is a development that is happening on your side.

1:38:22So that's the reason I'm asking until on this,

1:38:24like there's a different way to answer.

1:38:28- If I could address the council members question,

1:38:31and this might be a question for your staff,

1:38:35but I don't believe the more school ordinance

1:38:38requires frontage widening for public projects.

1:38:42- It does.

1:38:43For public projects, I don't know, for all the others,

1:38:46we tell them to have sidewalks and lights

1:38:49as part of the unit.

1:38:52Michelle is there, she can answer.

1:38:59So if you could, your name, your address, your role,

1:39:03and whether you were sworn in, please.

1:39:05- Yes, sir.

1:39:06Good evening, my name is Philip Murray.

1:39:08I'm a senior transportation planner

1:39:09for the town of Morrisville.

1:39:10And yes, I have been sworn in to the mayor and council

1:39:14regarding the public facilities.

1:39:16Yes, for example, with schools,

1:39:21there is an understanding of requirement

1:39:24to cover improvements such as this,

1:39:27because oftentimes with facilities like our schools,

1:39:31for example, we have to,

1:39:34they are not required to pay for those improvements,

1:39:36which that's the difference in with this position

1:39:39versus like you were saying with the developer.

1:39:42So that's pretty much the difference

1:39:44between the two, if that makes sense.

1:39:49- Sorry, I didn't understand that.

1:39:51- So maybe we could start again and indicate,

1:39:53don't talk about the schools,

1:39:54'cause Wake County go under that same privilege

1:39:57to not have to do the improvements.

1:40:00- Right, that's right.

1:40:01Well, in this case, with the solid waste facility,

1:40:03yes, and the other, they would not be permitted

1:40:08or required rather to make that improvement

1:40:10as part of their development site plan.

1:40:13One other thing too, I think it was mentioned

1:40:15with the aviation park, we would like to point out too,

1:40:17a beach and parkway, I know it was brought up,

1:40:20is right now scheduled to be let in summer of 2029.

1:40:25So I think that question came up as well.

1:40:27So I want to make sure that the council is aware of it.

1:40:29- That's the anticipated construction date

1:40:31by the city of C's calendar as well.

1:40:35- The reason I was asking is if someone wanted to walk

1:40:40through that property and there's no sidewalk

1:40:43on the other side.

1:40:45So he's jeopardizing himself and the oncoming traffic

1:40:51from the other way because it's a public facility.

1:40:55So which means they can either walk to it

1:40:58or like because they have paints and other things,

1:41:01there's a lot of people around it.

1:41:03So technically it's unsafe to walk on the other side

1:41:07because there's no sidewalks.

1:41:08Even though the plan is there for the future

1:41:11that they need to really time between you guys

1:41:14opening up to that, it's a safety issue

1:41:19for anyone who's walking to the property.

1:41:27- Appreciate your question.

1:41:29I would contend that we are not creating a traffic hazard.

1:41:32- No, I'm saying for the person who walks a pedestrian,

1:41:35who's trying to walk, taking stuff to the facility,

1:41:39there's no proper sidewalk.

1:41:41- I'm sure.

1:41:42- So how do they--

1:41:45- Yeah.

1:41:51- Because there's no sidewalk on the other side either.

1:41:54So pretty much.

1:41:57- Good afternoon.

1:41:58Paul Lopez, project manager with Way County.

1:42:01If Rachel, can you show me the side plan please?

1:42:07- Yours for the increase, sir.

1:42:08- I have been thrown in.

1:42:10- Thank you.

1:42:12- All right, let's see if I can address a little bit

1:42:16of your questions regarding the walkway.

1:42:18Yes, the development has a proposed walkway.

1:42:22So if you take a look at the roundabout,

1:42:25there's a line that crosses like--

1:42:28- You can use the arrow in this point.

1:42:33- Ooh, there you go.

1:42:34All right, so this is a walkway,

1:42:37and this is gonna continue all the way

1:42:39through the development,

1:42:41and it will continue all the way

1:42:43until we get to this area.

1:42:46Also, I would like to point that there is a greenway

1:42:49on the back of the property

1:42:51that continues behind the existing property

1:42:54and finally connects to Aviation Parkway.

1:42:57But we are currently also working

1:43:00with the town of Morrisville in granting access

1:43:04for a connection of the greenway at this moment.

1:43:07There is no other walkway behind

1:43:11or past this point at this moment.

1:43:13So there is no walkway on this other true property.

1:43:17So at this moment, this is the only walkway

1:43:21that we are proposing for the project.

1:43:25- Now, I certainly understand what you're saying,

1:43:28from our point of view, it's more for our staff also.

1:43:32We already have an existing issue

1:43:34with Etch-a-Sensei and others

1:43:35where on the other side, there's no sidewalk

1:43:38and people walk on that.

1:43:40I'm not saying that it will not be the same kind of walk

1:43:43that will happen here, but this is such a big facility.

1:43:46And if someone wanted to walk, what are the means?

1:43:52Like temporary means, at least, you know,

1:43:55kind of, I know you're given the path,

1:43:57you're given the right of way,

1:43:58you're given all the things that are needed.

1:44:00But is there alternate solution between now

1:44:06and when the road is getting done?

1:44:09- So if my understanding is correctly,

1:44:12we are trying to work with the town of Morrisville

1:44:15to make a greenway connection here.

1:44:17So the Morrisville people can actually connect

1:44:21to the Cedar Fork District Park.

1:44:23I believe that's one of the areas

1:44:26where the pedestrians are coming from.

1:44:31Also, based on the development of this property,

1:44:36the Way County will provide the town

1:44:39the two adjacent properties,

1:44:40one of which is the one

1:44:41where the existing convenience center is located.

1:44:45And it is my understanding that the town

1:44:47will like to eventually develop that area

1:44:51as part of the Cedar Fork Park District,

1:44:53providing a separate access to the Cedar Park as well.

1:45:02- I understand all that we have been already briefed

1:45:06about the sidewalk and this one.

1:45:07I'm particularly asking how the pedestrian

1:45:12can get into a convenience center.

1:45:15- So the convenience center and the solid waste facilities

1:45:18are not designed for pedestrians

1:45:19because you have to bring your trash in your car.

1:45:24For example, on the multi-material

1:45:26and also the hazardous waste material,

1:45:29our patrons are not allowed to get off the car

1:45:33when we are taking those materials out of their cars.

1:45:38So typically when a patron comes with paint,

1:45:42gasoline or any of those substances,

1:45:44our staff pickups that from their trunk

1:45:47or their pickup bed and it's put in our containers

1:45:53and our patrons are not allowed to get off the car.

1:45:57The only time that they are allowed to get off the car

1:46:00is when they are in the convenience center

1:46:02because they will be able to dump the trash

1:46:07or their debris into a container

1:46:09which is behind a retaining wall.

1:46:11But this facility is not encouraged for pedestrians

1:46:18and we would prefer not to encourage pedestrians

1:46:21in this type of facilities for safety of the public.

1:46:24- Now, good point.

1:46:25Are you going to put signs that says that?

1:46:29Are you going to put any signage

1:46:32or say it's like, you know, no foot tramp.

1:46:37- If that is what the town of Morrissey would like.

1:46:40We can put a sign that says no pedestrians.

1:46:43- And also I'm assuming no bikes too.

1:46:46- Well, as we see in this plan,

1:46:49that's why this sidewalk ends right there

1:46:52because we are not encouraging any type of connection

1:46:54where we will have pedestrians into the property design.

1:46:59That's why we are trying to make all efforts

1:47:02to guide people into different areas like the greenways

1:47:05and the connection that we will provide

1:47:07on the properties that we are willing to share

1:47:10with the town of Morrissey.

1:47:13- Thank you.

1:47:17- Councillor (indistinct)

1:47:21- Thank you.

1:47:26I will follow your line of questioning

1:47:30and then I'm going to go to the traffic impact

1:47:32which is item number five.

1:47:35So regarding the sidewalks for the town,

1:47:39just to summarize and restate what I've heard

1:47:44for verification.

1:47:47Is that a government entity is not required

1:47:53to build sidewalks as part of their improvement

1:48:05because the plan for aviation expansion

1:48:09does include sidewalks.

1:48:12Is that a true statement

1:48:13that when aviation is improved by NCDOT,

1:48:19the plan currently is to put sidewalks

1:48:23alongside this property

1:48:27so that pedestrians can walk along aviation Parkway

1:48:32on the exterior of this project.

1:48:40- It is correct that the U5811 project

1:48:43will have multimodal accommodations

1:48:45on both sides of aviation Parkway.

1:48:46So the intent once NCDOT's construction is complete

1:48:50is that there will be sidewalk or side path

1:48:52on both sides of aviation Parkway

1:48:54including through the frontage of this property.

1:48:57So you're right, it's not going to go,

1:48:59it's not going to direct pedestrian traffic into the site

1:49:01but it will be along the property front.

1:49:03- Correct, so that those wishing to move along

1:49:08aviation Parkway in general,

1:49:10whether on the side with the temple

1:49:13or the side with the facility

1:49:15that we're discussing tonight, they can do so.

1:49:19As Morrisville does encourage redevelopment

1:49:22of different properties,

1:49:23we will need to improve our connectivity

1:49:26with multimodal things.

1:49:28- Yes, that's correct.

1:49:30- That's helpful.

1:49:36I think I'll transition then

1:49:38to the traffic impact study inputs.

1:49:43So when a TIA is being proposed,

1:49:50there's a lot of inputs into that formulation

1:49:52with trip counts and so forth like that.

1:49:55Do you also include the approved zoning

1:50:03but not built plans of the town

1:50:06for like the there will be a major expansion

1:50:10of the HSNC property,

1:50:12which is immediately opposite of this project.

1:50:17And we do expect with that expansion will be more trips

1:50:22because of events or there's also a residential component

1:50:27going into there as well.

1:50:29So if you could maybe share that.

1:50:31- Absolutely, that is absolutely something

1:50:34that's accounted for in the traffic study

1:50:36and part of our scoping discussions before us study

1:50:39even begins with the town staff and NCDOT staff

1:50:42is making sure that we have accounted

1:50:43for the appropriate projects in the area.

1:50:45In this case, the expansion of the HSNC campus is included,

1:50:49that traffic is included in our analysis.

1:50:51In addition to that, we account for,

1:50:54we call it non-specific traffic growth in the area.

1:50:57So instead of trying to include every subdivision

1:51:00that may hit everywhere in the county,

1:51:02which is unreasonable and often overly conservative,

1:51:05we apply a growth rate to existing traffic volumes

1:51:09up to the study year.

1:51:10So we have a generic traffic growth percentage

1:51:13that's applied to our account volumes.

1:51:14And then in this case, we have explicitly added

1:51:18the traffic associated with the HSNC campus expansion

1:51:22to these distracted data, so.

1:51:25- I appreciate that statement.

1:51:28The traffic light control for the project,

1:51:33is that adjusting the current alignment of our light

1:51:38and then what is the difference between today

1:51:43and the future placement of it?

1:51:45- Sure, great question.

1:51:46So today, the only portions of that signal

1:51:50that are actually controlled are the movements

1:51:53along the aviation parkway and then the traffic

1:51:55coming onto and off of international drive.

1:51:58Your public works facility driveway is all set

1:52:00just outside the control of the signal.

1:52:02I think people probably feel like they're at the signal

1:52:04when they're entering or exiting the driveway.

1:52:07But there's technically a stop sign now.

1:52:09With this project, the driveway gets realigned

1:52:11further to the south so that it aligns appropriately

1:52:14with international drive so that we don't have movements

1:52:16conflicting, turning into and out of the driveway

1:52:19and then traffic coming into and out of this facility

1:52:23will have the appropriate traffic controls in the signal

1:52:26to make sure that they can enter and exit

1:52:28the driveway appropriately.

1:52:30- I appreciate that collaboration as well.

1:52:32Those are all my questions, thank you.

1:52:36- Council Member Patel.

1:52:37- I'll invite our potential body, please.

1:52:40- So it's for the turn lanes.

1:52:41Could you tell me what are the lanes

1:52:44of the right and left turn lanes?

1:52:46- Yes, sir.

1:52:47We're proposing to construct 150 foot left

1:52:52and right turn lanes along the aviation parkway

1:52:56entering the site driveway.

1:52:57So that's the length of the full width turn lane

1:53:01and then you obviously have to taper into

1:53:03or out of that width out there.

1:53:05But it's 150 feet of full width storage.

1:53:08- I understand, thank you.

1:53:09- Yes, sir.

1:53:10- Can you mention, in your opinion,

1:53:12there'll be no traffic impact of the project,

1:53:16but how about during construction?

1:53:18What do we deem back on the traffic

1:53:19during the construction of the facility?

1:53:21- What we often find is that most facilities

1:53:24have much lower traffic volumes during construction

1:53:26than during operations.

1:53:28So there's certainly going to be a traffic impact,

1:53:31but we believe, and it's typical in our analysis

1:53:35to evaluate the built condition

1:53:36when we're performing our analysis

1:53:38as that often governs Saturday peak hour traffic

1:53:41for folks who are coming to the facility

1:53:43is often going to be much higher

1:53:44than the number of contractor vehicles

1:53:47that are grading the site or constructing the facility.

1:53:50- Thank you.

1:53:56- I think someone had mentioned

1:53:57about when we were talking about the sidewalk.

1:54:01I think you stated that you're not encouraging foot traffic.

1:54:06You're not prohibiting foot traffic either.

1:54:11- Well, it's difficult to prohibit it

1:54:14because we do not control the land

1:54:16that is adjacent to us.

1:54:18But we are not encouraging foot traffic

1:54:20in a solid way to facilitate.

1:54:22- I was talking about in the facility.

1:54:24- Outside of the facility,

1:54:26if NCDOT decides to build a sidewalk,

1:54:29it will be on the ROW.

1:54:32- No, I'm talking about just inside the facility.

1:54:34- Inside the facility,

1:54:35we do not encourage foot traffic, no.

1:54:39- You say you do not encourage foot traffic,

1:54:41but you cannot prohibit it either.

1:54:44- Well, our staff will guide people

1:54:46not to wander around our facility,

1:54:50but they cannot control people

1:54:53from moving by themselves.

1:54:55We cannot forcibly ask people to not do that.

1:55:00We have fences that are separating the different facilities

1:55:04and through those measures,

1:55:05we control a little bit the traffic

1:55:07or the movement of people.

1:55:09But as primarily I say,

1:55:13the facility is designed for people to arrive to it

1:55:17in a vehicle, unload the debris,

1:55:20and go out of the facility on their vehicle.

1:55:24There is no services like bathrooms for public,

1:55:27there is no services like open space for public.

1:55:31So we do not encourage any type of foot traffic.

1:55:35- Understood, thank you.

1:55:40- Mayor Petromo, a body please.

1:55:42- Oh, did you want to have something to add?

1:55:44- Mr. Mayor, I think Mr. Baldwin may have something

1:55:47to add to the council members question.

1:55:51- Of course, yes, please.

1:55:53- Yeah, just wanted to clarify,

1:55:55at our 11 convenience centers,

1:55:56we've never had an issue with foot traffic.

1:55:58We specifically have rules and regulation signs

1:56:03all over facilities that say people have to stay

1:56:05in their car until they're dumping,

1:56:07there's no ordering,

1:56:08you're not allowed to walk around or soliciting

1:56:10and no kids under the age of 13 are allowed

1:56:12to get out and help the parents.

1:56:13So we do not want foot traffic.

1:56:15We will put more signage if you guys think

1:56:17that's going to become an issue.

1:56:19So that is not an ongoing issue at any of our sites.

1:56:22Thank you.

1:56:25- Mayor Petromo, a body please.

1:56:27- Thank you.

1:56:29Could you please explain the,

1:56:32I'm sorry, explain the signal to me again.

1:56:36Does this connect up to international drive somehow?

1:56:41- He will align with that.

1:56:42Yes, ma'am.

1:56:43So right now the public works facility

1:56:45doesn't actually line up.

1:56:47And I think left turns out of the driveway

1:56:49are technically prohibited.

1:56:50And we won't mention the names of the folks

1:56:52we saw turn left out there during our traffic counts.

1:56:55But what we'll say is that this will align

1:56:59like a traditional intersection with,

1:57:01like how Town Hall Drive aligns

1:57:03with the new roadway that you have across,

1:57:05maybe from worst of a parking road,

1:57:07right here on Shark Tower.

1:57:08It'll line up so that we don't have folks

1:57:10trying to turn it awkwardly out of an intersection

1:57:12and turn it in the way of someone making an opposed.

1:57:16- Okay, that's great.

1:57:18The only other question I have,

1:57:19we talked a lot about utilities,

1:57:22but we didn't talk about electricity.

1:57:24How much electricity does a facility like this use

1:57:27with this kind of expansion?

1:57:33- So I don't have a number,

1:57:35but we don't use that much electricity

1:57:37as our facilities are very minimal.

1:57:40Traditionally, we will have canopies

1:57:43that have some LED lighting.

1:57:45But since we operate in day hours,

1:57:47most likely those lights will be off

1:57:49unless it's a stormy day where the light is low.

1:57:55Also we have a small office

1:57:57that has three offices and a bathroom.

1:57:59So we are talking very low consumption of light.

1:58:04And the facility will have a few compactors of trash

1:58:08and they don't use that much

1:58:10and they don't run in a constant basis.

1:58:13It's as the trash is arriving,

1:58:15the trash gets compacted and it gets put away.

1:58:19- Okay, thank you.

1:58:22- Your team has been very thorough

1:58:25in answering our questions.

1:58:29And now Council Member Kessalyn, please.

1:58:34- Do you have an expert that can attest

1:58:38that the removal of the trees shade in the green way?

1:58:42Will not subject the public to heat stress

1:58:45thereby endangering their health and safety?

1:58:50- The applicant does not have any expert testimony

1:58:54on that issue.

1:58:58Are you referring to the tree canopy

1:59:03covering the adjacent green way or?

1:59:07- Yes.

1:59:08- Okay, I do not believe our landscape architect

1:59:15can address that or attempt to address that.

1:59:20- Again, Kevin Barnes,

1:59:22I'm a landscape architect for the tenant room.

1:59:25So the only places that we are getting close

1:59:29to disturbing any of the existing tree canopy

1:59:36is where we cross the green way with a sewer easement

1:59:40to make that connection to the sewer that's down below.

1:59:44There is some grading in the area

1:59:47just north of where that easement crosses.

1:59:51You can see it in this plan

1:59:53if I can grab that mouse again.

1:59:58Basically, this is that.

2:00:00What I'm pointing to is the easement, the sanctuary sewer easement that makes a connection to this forced main, or this main, it's actually a, it's not a forced main, it's a main sewer connection, it's a county, a town of Cary, utilities here in the back, so this is the green way because behind the property there's a bridge here that continues that way, so we make a connection there where there's a tree, it's a, it's about a 20-foot easement,

2:00:37where we may have one or two trees removed, but it's, it's a very narrow section of the green way to answer about stress related to heat because of the trees down. I can't answer that, I understand.

2:01:02I would just point out that this project does meet your UDO's tree canopy retention and protection standards. In fact, it exceeds those standards significantly and that is in the statement of justification that is part of your agenda package submitted by the applicant.

2:01:25Does anyone have any other questions? Do you have any more presentation or does our planning director want to address the body? Just very briefly, Mr. Mayor, council members, you've heard a lot of testimony on required special use permit standards 1 through 6, very briefly regarding special use permit standard 7 that this proposed development will be consistent with your comprehensive plan.

2:02:03I would submit to council that the proposed Westlake Solid Waste Facility is consistent with the Morrisville Land Use Plan because your plan identifies the parcel of 414 Aviation Parkway with a future land use designation of institutional and one of the key considerations stated in your land use plan for the institutional land use designation

2:02:33is to identify potential sites for long term expansion of community facilities and related infrastructure that will be necessary to maintain the quality of services and amenities in Morrisville.

2:02:50And I would submit to council that the county's proposed Westlake Solid Waste Facility will replace and will effectively serve as a long term expansion of the county's existing smaller Wake County Solid Waste Facility, which for over 30 years has been located about a third of a mile away from this parcel on Aviation Parkway.

2:03:17And I would further submit to council that the county's proposed new Westlake Solid Waste Facility would offer expanded solid waste collection and management services which are necessary to maintain the quality of services and amenities available to the residents of Morrisville by increasing the number of residents who can safely utilize the facility at the same time.

2:03:44You've heard testimony about the increased traffic queuing capacity of this new site versus the old site.

2:03:53And further, this new Westlake Solid Waste Facility will provide a place for Morrisville residents to safely and environmentally responsibly dispose of household hazardous waste such as batteries, fluorescent light bulbs, paint and paint thinner,

2:04:14herbicides, pesticides, insecticides, and swimming pool chemicals that should not be disposed of in household garbage.

2:04:23You know, this again is an expansion of the existing site about a third of a mile away from the proposed site and the existing site does not offer any such capacity to dispose of hazardous household waste.

2:04:41So, Mr. Mayor, council members, at this time the county respectfully submits that it has submitted substantial material and competent evidence on all seven of the special use permit review standards found in Morrisville UDO Article 2.5.6(d)

2:05:02And that all seven of the special use review standards have been met. And with that being the case, the applicant, Wake County, respectfully asked the council to make the appropriate findings of fact and approve the county's request for a special use permit for construction of the proposed new Westlake Solid Waste Facility at 414 Aviation Parkway to greater serve the citizens of Morrisville and Wake County.

2:05:33And just one more housekeeping matter before I sit down, I would like to make sure that Nick Kirkland's impact study, our real property appraiser, Mr. Kirkland, that the impact study that he prepared is submitted into the record.

2:05:51I believe it has been, but I just want to make sure that it's in the record of evidence for this matter, as well as Mr. Dean's traffic impact analysis, which he prepared.

2:06:03Again, I believe that's already in the record, but at an abundance of caution, I want to ask the council to formally accept those two documents into the record, along with the statement of justification that the applicant prepared and submitted along with its special use permit application.

2:06:24Okay, those received by the town clerk can accept it already. Yes. Okay, for the record, those have been received. Thank you, and I don't mean to be overkill with that, but since this is quasi judicial, definitely want to die all our eyes and cross all our takes.

2:06:56Yes, that's the way to do it. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, council members. So I have a quick question for our attorney.

2:07:04Are there any other parties withstanding that need to be recognized at this time? I would say this is a public hearing, Mayor. Right. I think you can ask anyone in the audience if they wish to present evidence. We can do this and we can determine.

2:07:19At this time I'd say that we have a public hearing open and is there anyone signed up? I do believe we have one person who may have standing and that is Patrick Gilbert.

2:07:33I'm the business cross the street. I didn't know I was supposed to talk. I'm just here checking things out. So I apologize. Okay. Did you want to address this body? Are you part of the standing? Okay. Any other one want to be considered a party of standing? Seeing none.

2:07:55Can you write off a couple of things from the legal corner? Yes, please. Number one, because this is a quasi judicial hearing and there's no one else presenting any evidence. And the only evidence you have to base your decision on is what's been submitted by the county.

2:08:19And so when you look at making your decision at the next meeting, which I understand is set for the next meeting when you would actually take a vote, then you would consider what's been submitted by the county and their witnesses and whether it supports the seven findings that are required to issue a special use permit.

2:08:45If the evidence has been submitted to support the standards, then the permit should be issued. There really is no other evidence before you. And as to the standard number two, which is that the proposed development will comply with all the town ordinances applicable to use that, you know, basically your staff and your applicant office submitting that evidence that it does meet to ordinance.

2:09:23So, if someone, if council wants to ask for something extra you may, but it's not required and it's really not part of the quasi judicial process. So I can get into a rezoning, you know, you may ask the applicant to do something for affordable housing or, you know, there's some type of back and forth.

2:09:45That's not the case here. The standards are the standards. They're required to submit evidence to support the findings. And if they do so, then a special use permit should be issued.

2:09:57Okay. Happy to answer any questions about that. Any questions for the attorney at this time? So, as was mentioned, we're scheduled to vote on this on the 22nd.

2:10:09So now we're going to enter the deliberation phase for my red line here. Does the board have any more questions for the parties or witnesses before we move into deliberation?

2:10:20Seeing none, does any board member have personal knowledge of additional facts relevant to this case that should be entered into the record?

2:10:31Hearing no additional questions or presentation of relevant facts, the board will now begin deliberation.

2:10:41The evidentiary hearing remains open so that the board may ask clarifying questions if needed.

2:10:47As a reminder, this council is tasked with deciding if, based on the evidence presented, this proposal meets the applicable standards.

2:10:55This decision cannot be based on the personal preference of council members, rather it is based on standards and evidence.

2:11:02Council members are encouraged to reference their applicable standards and specific evidence in their deliberation.

2:11:08Council is scheduled to take action at the September 22nd meeting.

2:11:12Does any party or council member wish to continue the evidentiary hearing until that meeting?

2:11:17I think we're deciding we're just leaving it open. So yes, we're in agreement on that.

2:11:28So essentially, I'd like to just first off say thank you very much to staff.

2:11:33This was the first time that we really dug in and explained everything as we went.

2:11:37I've done a number of presentational hearings and I'm very pleased with how smoothly this has been and how clear we've been to the public and to ourselves and to the applicant.

2:11:48But I'd love to entertain any thoughts that anyone has at this time about what we've heard and what we're thinking is going to happen on the 22nd, if you wish to share that now, if that's appropriate.

2:11:59Mr. Attorney, can that be okay?

2:12:01Yes, sir.

2:12:02Councillor (indiscernible)

2:12:04No, I think I want to echo this is a long due project that has to be coming and we are very appreciative.

2:12:12We're going to have this.

2:12:15And obviously, as a body here, we have to ask our safety questions.

2:12:21But I think we are looking forward for it.

2:12:23Councillor members, I do appreciate the clarity that we county has provided in relation to the conditions set forth.

2:12:42I also want to acknowledge the fact that this project has changed since its original inception,

2:12:49where the town did identify a new location for the Public Works building.

2:12:56And so the design had to be redone by the county.

2:13:02And with that, they've been able to present information about with this new alignment that has been requested.

2:13:15They still can meet the seven conditions as evidence they brought with the speakers today.

2:13:23Thank you.

2:13:25Thank you.

2:13:26Mayor Pro Tem, we're back.

2:13:28I just wanted to mention that as was stated in the beginning of the presentation,

2:13:34Wake County has a long history and a lot of experience with facilities like this.

2:13:40They are well run, they're clean, they're safe.

2:13:43And I could not be happier if we're getting one or more so.

2:13:51Very nice.

2:13:53Attorney, is there anything else we need to do to recognize documents or anything like that?

2:13:58Some special cases here in the back, but I think we'd better think covered if you feel like we have.

2:14:05I think if you would just say again for the record that all the submissions by the staff

2:14:12and all of the submissions by the applicant are considered part of the record that you'll base your decision on.

2:14:18Okay.

2:14:19As was just stated, do we need head nods on that or just me stating it?

2:14:24If you will say to be good for the record, yes, sir.

2:14:29I can't just say what you just said.

2:14:33I need that.

2:14:34All the information submitted, presented by the staff and by the applicant are considered part of the record.

2:14:43Are considered part of the record.

2:14:45Okay, great.

2:14:47It looks like we have one vote to go ahead and close out the deliberation and continue the evidentiary hearing at this time.

2:14:54So council is scheduled to take action at the September 22nd meeting.

2:14:59Does any party or council member wish to continue the evidentiary hearing until that meeting?

2:15:04So is there a motion and second to continue the hearing until September 22nd?

2:15:08That's what I need you to say.

2:15:11I would like to make a motion to continue the public hearing until September 22nd.

2:15:17Will you please also state the time?

2:15:21I'm sorry.

2:15:22Will you please state the time as well?

2:15:24The entire statement.

2:15:26It's kind of blocked by your thing.

2:15:27I was sorry.

2:15:30I would like to make a motion to continue the hearing until September 22nd.

2:15:33Town Council meeting, which begins at 6 p.m.

2:15:38I have a motion.

2:15:41Any second?

2:15:44I'll second.

2:15:45A motion from Council Member Scargy-Johnson, a second from Council Member Patel.

2:15:50All those in favour, please say aye.

2:15:51Aye.

2:15:52Any opposed?

2:15:53That carries.

2:15:54And that's the 6-0.

2:15:56Thank you very much to the applicant.

2:15:57Thank you very much to our staff.

2:15:59And once again, thank you to our town clerk and our attorney for helping that go really smooth.

2:16:05So thank you all very much.

2:16:06Appreciate it.

2:16:09We are now scheduled to take a break.

2:16:11We're going to take a 15-minute break, please.

2:16:13Please reconvene at 8-18.

2:36:18So we are back in session.

2:36:22We're at action item number 12.

2:36:25I was wondering, Council Member Johnson is still with us.

2:36:30I wanted to have confirmation of that.

2:36:31Thank you very much.

2:36:32Appreciate your patience and joining us remotely, Council Member Johnson.

2:36:36So we have one action item this evening.

2:36:39We now invite Justin Rosser, Chief of Police, to the podium.

2:36:44Good evening, Mayor and Council.

2:36:51Thank you for letting me come back and provide you with updates to the Foxlark Ordinance

2:36:57based on the recommendations I received from Council last time.

2:37:01And you'll see we just made some statistics for you that I think that most of the Council

2:37:06wanted to see before moving forward this item.

2:37:12So some of the changes that we have made since the last meeting is feedback from Council

2:37:19was to 10 days, maybe a little too short of time for appeals.

2:37:23So we changed that to 15 business days.

2:37:26So that would actually give three weeks' time and still gives our staff time to send

2:37:30letters and do everything that we need to do.

2:37:33So you will see that change has been made in the ordinance itself.

2:37:37Also some concerns around the discontinuance of responses, basically how that process would

2:37:42work.

2:37:44And we have added that in there that would one, require Chief of Police approval and

2:37:48written notice sent to the alarm user prior to any implementation of that.

2:37:53So there would be quite a bit of notice that would go out and that would also trigger

2:37:56internal processes in the police department to make sure we communicate with those alarm

2:38:01users to make them aware that they are following in that threshold where we may need to start

2:38:07talking about discontinuance of responses.

2:38:10The fee schedule, we actually caught this in the fact that we, Council had already

2:38:17adopted the civil penalties that we laid out that was already adopted in the fee schedule.

2:38:24However, there was not a late fee that had been adopted by Council.

2:38:27So you will see there's another resolution in there to adopt the 25% late fee of an

2:38:34outstanding balance if not paid within 30 days.

2:38:36I will tell you that mirrors late fees that the town already does for other departments.

2:38:43So we want to make sure we were consistent in our fee schedule.

2:38:47And then we also talked about time to educate the public and alarm users on this.

2:38:53So we've changed it to where this ordinance would not become effective until January

2:38:561st of 2027.

2:38:58Also with us operating on an angled basis, that would give us a good starting point

2:39:02as well to make sure that we're catching that 12 month period for the ordinance itself.

2:39:10So some of the statistics for us, we had in, and I had to pull 2025 because with 2026

2:39:18ongoing.

2:39:19In 2025, we had 524 false alarms here in town, in 2024, it was actually 620 of them.

2:39:28If I had staff, they did a tremendous job.

2:39:30So I'm very appreciative of the work they put into this because these are, some of

2:39:34these are hypotheticals in the fact that they ran the false alarms as if this ordinance

2:39:39was already in place.

2:39:41So keep that in mind that none of these, these alarm users ever received a letter.

2:39:45So you may see these numbers actually drop a little bit based on the education or the

2:39:50fact that we're sending them letters saying they're in violation, that didn't happen.

2:39:54But if they didn't pay attention to the letters, these are the numbers that would project

2:39:58for us.

2:39:59I want to give you an idea of that.

2:40:00So we actually had 27 alarm users in town that would have been in violation of the ordinance

2:40:05as it would be written.

2:40:07None of those were residential.

2:40:10And the number of false alarms at the alarm, for the alarm users, it was kind of a wide

2:40:15range.

2:40:16It went all the way from 4 to 15 false alarms that would have happened in a 12 month period.

2:40:22The 15 was only one user, and I think there were some issues with that alarm, but obviously

2:40:28we would have to work with that alarm user to make sure that they're addressed.

2:40:32The majority of them fell within the 4 to 7 range, but there were some that were a little

2:40:38higher and the highest one being 15 alarms.

2:40:41We did also check with finance.

2:40:43Only one alarm user would have been in violation of non-compliance with the civil penalties

2:40:48as far as making payments.

2:40:50So that's kind of what it would look like based on the 2025 statistics.

2:40:54Again, we're still, I know we're more than halfway through 2026, but Christmas season,

2:41:00all that tends to add factor in.

2:41:01So it's hard for me to give you a projection for this year.

2:41:05We also looked at some research that had been conducted by the security industry alarm

2:41:09coalition.

2:41:10Some data that they provided, and I thought I was interested to point out to counsel,

2:41:15this is nationwide, a study that 99.9% of all alarms are alarm regulations or false,

2:41:22which means that typically when we respond, we don't find anything wrong with the business

2:41:26or anything else.

2:41:28And I see some surprise looks.

2:41:30We want to help educate them, but I'm happy that 99.9% of them were false because that

2:41:34would mean we'd have a bigger issue if they weren't, right?

2:41:37But out of those alarms that we receive, 99.9% on a national average end up being false.

2:41:44Now I will say we talked about the safety aspect of this last council meeting, but

2:41:49I wanted to show you a true cost financial for us or projected cost.

2:41:54And I say projected because this was based on a study done in 2023.

2:41:58This council can probably guess the cost of things have rose since then, but this is

2:42:03the numbers that they came up with in 2023.

2:42:06So on national average, each response to alarm costs $75 to $95 per response.

2:42:13That's based on a two officer response, which is the same model we use because I don't

2:42:16want officers going by themselves to alarms.

2:42:20There's over 20 minutes per alarm.

2:42:22And based on that was $75, I calculate this at the low end at $75 per alarm.

2:42:29And then as counsel is aware under the cam agreement, we pay $34 and 26 cent per dispatch

2:42:36call for the police department.

2:42:37So that's what we're responsible for paying to carry to dispatch.

2:42:41So based on that at 524 alarms, that would actually total $57,252 annually that we would

2:42:49have been paying for our response to alarms and average, right?

2:42:54But that's a significant cost to us, a significant cost in personnel time that they're taking

2:42:58care of these alarms and not able to be out here and answering calls and doing things

2:43:02that they need to be doing to help keep the rest of the town safe.

2:43:06So I wanted to highlight that for council because I think that's important to show

2:43:09why we're changing this ordinance and trying to educate and gain compliance and making

2:43:15sure people maintain their alarms the way they should.

2:43:17I wanted to include those statistics for you.

2:43:21So those are the changes that we've made some of the statistics that you'd ask for.

2:43:24I'll be glad to answer any questions that anybody may have.

2:43:27We'll start with council member Patel please.

2:43:31Okay, Chief, the statistics are very helpful.

2:43:36Just one question I have, this is on page three, you had mentioned none of those are

2:43:42residential.

2:43:43Are those 524 false alarms weren't residential or just the ones who have violated?

2:43:54None of the ones in violation were residential.

2:43:57We do have false alarms at residence, but none of them would have been in violation

2:44:00of the new ordinance.

2:44:02We find that homeowners tend to be very responsible for their alarms.

2:44:05So we may get one or two at a house, but they'll get the company back out and fix

2:44:09it.

2:44:10Okay, that's what I had.

2:44:11Thank you.

2:44:13Council member Kestlin, please.

2:44:17Thank you for this presentation and for bringing this to us on your own initiative.

2:44:25I really appreciate it.

2:44:26I wanted to know if we could include in the policy that there would be no discontinuation

2:44:37of service for residential users.

2:44:40I know that it's not an issue, but I wouldn't want to put a resident in that position where,

2:44:47you know, if you don't pay, the service is discontinued.

2:44:51So if that's not already in the policy, if that could be included in the policy.

2:44:55I would caution council on doing the wholesale just residential.

2:44:58The only reason why I say that is we may have a vacant house that we determined to

2:45:01be vacant, but there's an alarm system that's still active in there.

2:45:05So I'll be glad to, once we write this policy on the police department to ensure that we

2:45:10keep responding to residents.

2:45:13But I don't want to put it in there.

2:45:14We won't respond to any residential just because of that fact, we may have those few where

2:45:19they may be vacant.

2:45:20It may be a rental house that stays there or vacant for a long time to where we may

2:45:24have to not respond based on that, right?

2:45:29But again, this is all going to come based after a ton of education meeting with them,

2:45:35like this will not be a decision that's made lightly, and that would be laid out in policy.

2:45:39But I'll be glad to look at that.

2:45:40But I can't say that we could wholesale say no to any residential alarm because it just

2:45:46paints its own kind of a corner we can't get out of.

2:45:54I might not be following what you're saying, because I might have been saying one thing

2:46:01and I think I'm hearing something different and I'll ask you to clarify this.

2:46:05Are you, so I guess I'm saying not discontinuing services for residential, but what I was

2:46:14hearing from you was the same thing, I guess?

2:46:18Yes, but I would caution, and again, this would be a policy decision, right, in the

2:46:25police department policy, because it doesn't belong in the ordinance because of the fact

2:46:27that it tends to change over time and everything else.

2:46:31But you have residents sometimes where they become vacant, but the alarm system is still

2:46:36active.

2:46:37So, if we determine that that's the case, we don't want to say we would not discontinue

2:46:43your response, and then I keep having to send resources there when we know we don't

2:46:46need to respond.

2:46:47But I guess what I'm saying is I can design a policy that ensures that we make sure that

2:46:52we're responding to residential alarms that we do need to keep responding to.

2:46:56Does that make sense?

2:46:57It's all in the wording of the policy, right, but when we write policy, we tend not to

2:47:01say yes and no definite on a lot of things just because there are those one or two officers

2:47:07that just prevent us from being able to do what we need to do.

2:47:09Yeah, I would say that if there's a family's primary residence or if there is a rental

2:47:19and that is where that family is living, you know, I wouldn't want to see that.

2:47:24That's all I'm saying.

2:47:25I would tell counsel that would not be my intention to ever discontinue responses there,

2:47:29but we wouldn't say no to any residential.

2:47:33Just because of that fact, it could be a vacant house, it could be something else that would

2:47:36cause us to discontinue.

2:47:38Mayor Pro Tem, the body, please.

2:47:43Can you go back one slide, please?

2:47:48Just pursuant to the fact that a lot of people in Morrisville are residents, I just wanted

2:47:55to make sure that this was clear that so the written notice will be sent to the alarm

2:48:02user.

2:48:03So if it's a rental, that's the person living in the house, right?

2:48:07You're talking about for a discontinuous piece, Mayor Pro Tem?

2:48:10Yes.

2:48:11So what we would do, and this would be in the policy, is that not only would we send

2:48:15written notice, it would go to the residence, it would also, as a rental, and we can determine

2:48:19the owner of the residence, we would send it to them as well, but we will also be sending

2:48:23somebody, me or somebody else in the police department, will go by and speak with them

2:48:27personally.

2:48:28Like, it's not going to be just a letter.

2:48:30I don't want counsel to think that we would be going by to make an effort to contact

2:48:35them and speak with them in person.

2:48:37This would never be just a letter, and then it would be multiple attempts to talk to

2:48:42somebody.

2:48:48I don't see any other questions, so we can bring the language up.

2:48:53I'd entertain a motion at this time.

2:48:57First, I apologize, I'd like to recognize Councilmember Johnson.

2:49:01Yeah, thank you, Mayor.

2:49:05I just wanted to make a comment.

2:49:07I know I can't vote remotely, but I want to thank the Chief for the changes, and if

2:49:14I was present tonight, I would vote in favor of these changes.

2:49:18I understand the Chief's goal here is to make sure we're deploying our resources and

2:49:26services, meaning police officers, in a really thoughtful and responsible manner that is

2:49:35beneficial to the whole community.

2:49:38So I understand that better now, and I appreciate the changes, Chief.

2:49:44Thank you.

2:49:47Thank you, Councilmember Johnson.

2:49:50I'd like to make a motion to adopt ordinance 2026-294-0 of the Morisville town council

2:50:03amending the town code of ordinances, chapter 30, article 2 related to alarm systems.

2:50:09I second.

2:50:10A motion from Mayor of Potomac body, second from Councilmember Patel.

2:50:15All those in favour, please say aye.

2:50:16Aye.

2:50:17Any opposed?

2:50:19All those in favour?

2:50:20Aye.

2:50:21Thank you.

2:50:22All those in favour?

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3:00:00So with the operational financial impacts, well, the operational part, it's 40 plus staff hours

3:00:06a month spent managing the insurance related tasks. So that falls most exclusively the PINA,

3:00:16our membership service coordinator. And what happens is when somebody comes in and they want

3:00:23a membership, they sign up for it, they give a number, we'll check that number. And then what

3:00:28will happen is we'll sign them up for that insurance that they're coming in for. So when

3:00:33they come in to use our facility for let's say the month of June. So what happens is we'll,

3:00:40she'll have to run a series of reports for the different insurance companies and then turn those

3:00:46in to them to get reimbursed for the next month or for the prior month they're in there. So we

3:00:51won't get paid for June until July or August. So that that takes a lot of staff hours to try and

3:00:59track all that and to turn in the reimbursements. Sometimes we're finding this maybe a little bit

3:01:04more recently, but sometimes we'll get, see a reimbursement come in and they may not have

3:01:13paid us for one or two people. So they'll ask for. Sorry to interrupt. Councilmember Scroggins-Johnson

3:01:19has a question. Oh yeah. So it's about the footer in the previous slide just so because I've been

3:01:26doing wild math on the side of the work session. But there's a statement that says 1489 are

3:01:33insurance based and 505 active memberships are 34 percent. I can see where the 505 has been

3:01:39derived. I wasn't really sure about that 1489. Is that the total number of visits? Yeah, no that's

3:01:45no that's a great question. So we have had 1489 people come in and actually sign up for insurance.

3:01:53That doesn't mean they're ever going to come in and use the facility. Okay. So that's a number

3:01:59that there that's the amount of people that actually have insurance based memberships.

3:02:04The 505 for the month of June are the amount of people that came in and utilized that membership

3:02:12through their insurance. Whether once or. Yeah it could be one time 20 times a different time. So

3:02:17we'll count they'll track that they come in one time that goes to the 505 number. The 1489 numbers

3:02:23is their insurance pays for this membership so they can come in and they can and they can sign

3:02:29them up then we'll create their account. So they automatically become an insurance member even

3:02:34though they may never come in. We may see them never or they may come in like two or three months

3:02:40or they may come multiple times a month. So it just it's a yeah. So if somebody comes in one

3:02:47time and their insurance based customer you'll only get reimbursed for that one visit or

3:02:53correct they give you the active status. Yeah yeah it's per if it's below 10 visits for

3:03:02like Ash Lake I think it's 335 335 a person 325 a person so if they come in three times 325 times

3:03:13so this is three visits is what we'll get reimbursed up to 10. I calculate that to be

3:03:18around 62 percent reimbursement rate but we can continue on. I just wanted to make sure

3:03:22I understood the 1489. Yeah I meant to I meant to clarify that before it moved on. I appreciate

3:03:27you so much. Yeah we have another question from council member Caramella at this time. Yeah I

3:03:35understand these issues and it's we are not in insurance business and but there's you go out of

3:03:47network and some doctors don't even take insurance but they give you a paper you can go file

3:03:55insurance. Why are those options not getting explored man saying we don't take insurance you

3:04:02basically tell them hey this is the form you can apply it's on you now not on us but you pay us

3:04:11and you get it reimbursed. We have discussed that with some of the insurance companies the most

3:04:18recent one and I can't remember which one it is they said they do not do that and most of the

3:04:23ones that we have spoken with and are able to speak with a human said they don't do it. We have

3:04:29asked our members to contact their insurance companies. They have to you know like you can

3:04:36ask and chip and others like they we have more power in telling those people because they will

3:04:43obviously push back. Insurance is good for only pushing back because being a great medic united

3:04:50health is going on for almost like eight months we are fighting back and forth but I think these

3:04:56are small things that when option is given for them I don't see a difference between you filing

3:05:02or they filing end of the day they have to get reimbursed you know and they should not just tell

3:05:08you like that okay we don't do it but if you do it they're they're allowing it so it's like a

3:05:15bystander there and that's the two cents please continue thank you so sorry finally please oh so

3:05:37the money so you can see the third the next the last row the total paid by insurance that's kind

3:05:45of the important number on this slide is that's the actual number that we're getting reimbursed

3:05:51in the month of june for the different resident adults resident seniors non-resident adults

3:05:57non-resident seniors and it totals ten thousand three hundred and six dollars and nine six nine

3:06:04ninety six cents so that that that's the number that we got in june as far as what we were

3:06:09reimbursed so that was uh with 505 active memberships and that was a total number that

3:06:17we got reimbursed so that what we did was we tried to um compare it to a regular membership

3:06:24that we have now since they pay monthly the insurance companies with their reimburses monthly

3:06:30we thought of the uh the closest apple to apple will be a monthly paid in full membership and

3:06:35it's just strictly just to show you what a regular membership cost compared to what we're

3:06:41getting with a uh insurance base that's all that this is this is all based on and you can see the

3:06:46difference at the bottom so if you saw move one row up the total paid for monthly those are the

3:06:51numbers of what we would get for the same amount of resident adults if we had 60 resident adults

3:06:57we would have received 2700 for a paid in full monthly and that's all that is trying to get as

3:07:03close as we could to like a regular membership that we have just to kind of we were asked about

3:07:07that so that's the the closest um comparison we could get to it to kind of just show you a little

3:07:14bit of whether you call that unrealized revenue or just the difference of what we would get if

3:07:19that was a regular membership managing capacity that comes into another challenge that we have

3:07:26right now when i first started in september last year you know we were having a lot of people on

3:07:34wait lists so one of the things that we started to do is just make started in january we started

3:07:39making adjustments to our class schedules and capacities to help meet demand lower and large

3:07:45monthly wait list our average number of wait lists for fy 26 was 230 people

3:07:52so you know some of those numbers if you think about it on the 230 that's a pretty large number

3:07:59so there we don't know who exactly is being left off in the wait list but you could argue that

3:08:07there could be some people out there if you the way i think about it if there's people out there

3:08:11that are on insurance and they're on visit 14 or 15 and they're not we're not getting any

3:08:19any reimbursement for that and it's not it's not a money thing but if you think about it like that

3:08:23then it could potentially be keeping a regular paying membership person out depending on when

3:08:31they sign up so again yeah i'm confused about what you're uh associating a wait list because

3:08:40i think a wait list could be for membership because you've capped your membership could be

3:08:46for a specific class 230 people for a specific class seems like a lot but 230 people for

3:08:53membership is another situation i'm not sure what 230 is yeah 230 people is for uh all group

3:09:00fitness classes so that could be water removics that could be yoga that could be anything that

3:09:05you can go on those wait lists come from swimming lessons another one and that's where i'm going

3:09:11to get to in just a second but just to your question but 230 is uh all group fitness classes

3:09:17so that's where we track that seems like yes i understand 230 is a lot but by each class

3:09:26what is the average wait list 10 people 15 people 20 it varies yeah it varies the classes

3:09:33that we saw the biggest wait list for are swimming lessons water robics and some yoga classes

3:09:38for like some of the older uh classes swimming lessons you're going to see a younger uh people

3:09:45in that one but with water robics it's it's pretty much mostly seniors if not all seniors

3:09:51some of the um group fitness classes that we see with yoga those can be some older older groups

3:09:57we also had uh added uh some saturday and two sunday group fitness classes that kind of try

3:10:03and see if we saw where the classes that had the high wait list we try to add more classes

3:10:09in those particular classes to offset the the wait list so is it possible to understand how

3:10:16the insurance participants the active memberships 34 how they're impacting the active classes like

3:10:27you have to really are they 20 i'm sure you've done a lot of different that's a hard number

3:10:34that's a hard number to pull because we don't uh when they sign up through you pace uh it it

3:10:40doesn't really say if they're insurance or not insurance they're just they know we know they're

3:10:44a member and they get to sign up for the class and the reason i i am asking that specific question

3:10:51is because understanding the impact of you know these individuals not returning and you're looking

3:10:58at capacity as one of your justifications for you know as well as staff time for releasing the

3:11:06insurance program so i just needed you know to better understand it thank you yeah um one last

3:11:15thing that we did in jane starting in january is we stopped accepting new non-resident insurance

3:11:21memberships so we still kept the uh non-residents that already had a membership with us but we

3:11:28didn't accept any more new non-resident insurance so we have kind of over the last since the last

3:11:34few months we've done that we've seen a little bit of drop in the non-resident insurance

3:11:39memberships as they fall off or go with their insurance does it cover anymore if they go

3:11:44and do something else we we don't know what happened to those people but you can see where

3:11:47from the data the numbers are going down a little bit uh we did send out a questionnaire

3:11:54um to all of our resident seniors and about 180 were distributed via email both active

3:12:01and inactive so amongst the households it was about 180 questionnaires 36 questionnaires were

3:12:07completed some of the highlights that we found out of the 36 resident responses only eight had

3:12:12the senior center membership and we're going to talk a little bit more about that in just a few

3:12:16minutes that's why we wanted to add this um data in there and then um one of the questions would

3:12:22you participate in non-aquatic classes at msc uh we had three yeses 10 nos and 23 maybes and then

3:12:30would you consider a paid membership keeping in mind there would be some type of discount

3:12:35we had four yeses six nos and maybe depends on the amount of discount we're 26 um some of the

3:12:46slides that and you all got the packet of the full questionnaire but some of the slides that

3:12:50we found um interesting if you will um we're on average how many times do you visit the mfc in a

3:12:57month and this is where mark was alluding to earlier so the the highest number is um 17 that

3:13:03have visited beyond that 10 10 visit mark so 11 to 20 and then the next is the one to 10 and then

3:13:10the 21 above is the six the next one on average how many group fitness programs that are included

3:13:18in your membership do you participate in monthly you will see that the 27 out of the 36 was the

3:13:25one to 10 and 11 to 20 was the nine and you have any of the following options through your

3:13:32insurance plan for how your mafc membership is paid or reimbursed and this um 14 i have another

3:13:40arrangement based on my insurance plan um for nine was i'm not sure um five i pay my insurance

3:13:48company directly for for my mafc membership um and then none of the above so i'm not sure what the

3:13:54eight have done we talked a little bit about the morrisville senior center and how it correlates

3:14:02with mafc you'll see that we do have several class offerings that um overlap with both msc

3:14:09and mafc for instance uh yoga both chair and mat classes and then we have zumba gold aerobics and

3:14:16tachi and i do have a lara krumpler msc manager here as well to answer any questions as they

3:14:22relate to the morrisville senior center they've continued to add programs at the senior center

3:14:27and have done an outstanding job in doing so so we we do operate quite a few fitness programs

3:14:33at msc uh we also offer the fitness i was asked to do the fitness and social programs offered at

3:14:39msc and we do line dancing educational sessions which they're all over the place a lot of

3:14:45educational sessions but eat smart uh move more in a matter of balance or just a few named

3:14:50and then the socials we do the harvest fest st patrick's day lunch and the national senior

3:14:55citizen stage just to name a few and then as far as games which is another social aspect

3:15:00uh bingo mahjong and other various card games are are held at msc some of the area uh senior

3:15:08centers that um we were we were asked to look at potentially doing a pilot program but first we

3:15:13wanted to see who was open on saturday's and weekends basically so you'll see um the list

3:15:19here apex carrie fuquay garner orange county raleigh and wake forest and when some of them

3:15:25are open on saturday's two senior program programs but others do not open on weekends and they use

3:15:33it more for facility rental space so as we looked and and talked to lara about the the the saturday

3:15:41pilot program we did stick to saturday's um the time frame we're gonna hopefully do it is october

3:15:48through december we're not going to do any saturday's following holiday and then the right

3:15:52now the proposed hours of operation are going to be from 9 a.m to 1 p.m and i did put pending

3:15:58program there um pending programming because we're not sure what instructors we're going to get just

3:16:03yet she's still working on that so we have a few lined up that she's been working with msc or mafc

3:16:08on and like i said we already share a lot of programming and instructors with msc so we're

3:16:15hoping that's going to be pretty organic them coming over to us and and wanting to do something

3:16:19on saturday's uh some associated wins to this as increased member engagement we're hoping to see

3:16:25some different folks coming this saturday on coming to the facility on a saturday that may

3:16:30not come during the week because they work um expanded programs just that increase of programs

3:16:35um being done on saturday's and then of course the continued collaboration with mafc and then

3:16:41the associated challenges is just the instructor availability the participant interest we're not

3:16:47sure what it's going to bring we're not sure what saturday's are going to bring and then the

3:16:50programming balance you know do we offer all fitness do we offer a you know a mix of fitness

3:16:58and social um educational so that's you know just getting that program in balance and seeing what

3:17:03the seniors want to come to uh looking ahead uh some of the things that we're looking to do

3:17:13to help the seniors uh moving forward is well first of all a 20 discount for the calendar year

3:17:2020.7 is something that we'd like to do we do in the month around the month of january at the mefc

3:17:27we provide a 10 discount for any new members but for specifically for senior residents we'd

3:17:35recommend to do a 20 discount for the calendar year another thing we'd like to do is uh or

3:17:43hopefully the seniors will have some access to the neighborhood financial assistance i

3:17:47know that's something we just recently started to look at with the after school programs and the

3:17:53in the summer camps and i and i believe there's an option in there too for seniors so we'd like

3:17:57to pursue that as well uh obviously we'll continue to collaborate with a senior center

3:18:03with different things that we can uh do programming together and still share our

3:18:07instructors i know i talked with sarah today our fitness person and we're going to also actually

3:18:13hopefully add pickleball as well uh that uh can be a senior program so you can do over our place

3:18:20also obviously the senior center expansion will help a lot and uh and uh what cindy talked about

3:18:26earlier was a saturday pilot program that we'll have for three months one other questions might

3:18:34y'all we'll start with mayor potemo body followed by councilmember garamillo please thank you could

3:18:42we go back a few slides i think it was the second slide with the numbers on it so it's uh the next

3:18:51one sorry yeah so this says that it's the current insurance members as of 6 30 26 so that's

3:19:00january first to june 30th no it's for the month of june so it's the first through the 30th

3:19:08okay so it's a one month it's a snapshot of one month okay so we're saying that over 12 months at

3:19:1514 000 15 000 just around up 12 months i'm still not seeing where that 202 000 is coming from we

3:19:24knew that was going to be a question yeah that's that was every every month is different so the

3:19:30month of june was 14 000 but for uh some of the other months it was uh more i think actually june

3:19:38might have been the shortest the lowest one so it actually i looked at the numbers for the first

3:19:45quarter uh and the last quarter so it took six months that's all we really had this information

3:19:51for and it totaled uh for six months 101 101,096 uh would have been the unrealized or difference

3:20:00so for those six months we collected 65 202 were reimbursed from the insurance company

3:20:08so it's again that's it's uh 202 is we just doubled the 101 number is how we got that

3:20:15you can't do it by by multiplying unfortunately 14 000 every month is different because it just

3:20:21depends on who comes in and becomes an active member and how much we're asking to be reimbursed

3:20:27okay and the plan that i understand it is to offload some of the people from the mefc the

3:20:35non-aquatic um offers to offload some of those people to the senior center by expanding the

3:20:42senior center program with comparable programs is that correct that was that was one of the

3:20:49things that we we would like to do for sure yes okay um and then i just have some questions

3:20:55generally speaking about how this plan was communicated before it before everybody got

3:21:03the letters because i everyone that i've talked to was surprised and i feel bad and so i'm

3:21:13wondering like what was the like i'm gonna say change management effort but i know that's like

3:21:18corporate speak but what how did we inform people that this might be coming before it

3:21:27land like was there outreach at this at the mefc like was there were there signs like asked us how

3:21:34your membership is changing i mean or did we just send out was the was the letters the first

3:21:41outreach on that we we did reach out to the insurance companies to see you know if if there

3:21:47was anything that we could do there we were looking at the contracts and um some of the

3:21:52contract language didn't didn't feel right for us um so we were just kind of looking at you know

3:21:59all the contracts and making sure that we understood everything there and then um the

3:22:05insurance companies we reached out to them and then it was decided that we would cease the

3:22:12insurance-based memberships in december and that was probably let's see they were given at least

3:22:19a six month notice um and then we did we did mention to in the in the email or how you have

3:22:27email that we were going to be continuing to work with the insurance companies and we encourage

3:22:31the members to reach out to the insurance companies as well right but so i understand

3:22:37that you reached out to the insurance companies but what i'm asking is it doesn't seem like there

3:22:42was any kind of prep work or like groundwork laid where you know people were warned that

3:22:48this might you know this might have to be a thing we're working with the insurance companies

3:22:52we're trying to figure something out we may have to cease insurance program like i just

3:22:57it doesn't seem like there was any kind of change management over here at all to help people

3:23:02understand because when a lot of them got the letters they were frightened and they you know

3:23:09they thought like i i know that it said that it was you know it was going through december whatever

3:23:14it was but you know they thought that they weren't going to be able to go to the ama of

3:23:18seeding more like they it just seems like it seems like that's on us like we i think we could

3:23:24have done a better job there that's it okay councilmember keselink followed by councilmember

3:23:38scott johnson please so the 202,000 estimate how will that be reallocated so that's the

3:23:56that's the unrealized difference so that's not a number that we're seeing now so the number that

3:24:02we're seeing now i wish i could get glasses is yes this what we're getting is the 65 well sorry

3:24:1810,306 is what we're getting for the year what we're receiving from the insurance company is

3:24:2565,000 so again we base that 202 on comparing it to a monthly paid in full membership which is

3:24:35the closest we could get we're asked to kind of say what would that compare to so that's the

3:24:40closest thing we can compare it to so if somebody paid a monthly paid in full senior well no just

3:24:48monthly paid in full membership and compare it to what we're getting now from the insurance company

3:24:55that you can see the difference is a little bit a lot less than what we would get if it was a

3:25:01regular membership that's where that number came from so really i think the question would be

3:25:06the loss possibly for the year will be 65,000 which is what we're getting from the insurance

3:25:12companies right now does that make sense so we'd lose 65,000 but then potentially potentially

3:25:20gain assuming that all those members carried over into new memberships exactly yeah and obviously

3:25:31not everybody's going to sign up and all the non-residents are going to sign up and pay

3:25:36non-regular non-resident that's just not going to happen but that was that would be the like

3:25:41the best case scenario but i think the worst case scenario for me what i'm thinking about

3:25:46is insurance companies are reimbursing us right now 65,000 well you know that's not even for the

3:25:51year i take that back that was for um the for six months they reimbursed 65,000 so it's actually

3:25:58around 130,000 that we potentially that's the worst case scenario is that's what we would not

3:26:04be reimbursed in the following year that we started this so yes some of it will be offset

3:26:10by regular memberships i have no doubt how much that'll be that's impossible to say we're going

3:26:16to lose some people we might gain some people um we're certainly going to lose some non-residents

3:26:22there's no question that we'll lose some non-residents i have no doubt and i hope that helps

3:26:27um what kind of expenditure is the 40 plus staff hours how much is that per month say that yeah i'm

3:26:34sorry so the the cost of the 40 plus staff hours per month what does that look like for her salary

3:26:43so it takes a certain amount of um yeah of the budget to yeah allocate those 40 plus staff

3:26:49hours so i'm wondering that'd be 25 25 plus of what she would normally do on top on top of what

3:26:59she normally does so that also without talking about dollars you're also thinking about time

3:27:06that she's away from the front desk or other duties that she had before that we've given to

3:27:12two of our front line front desk people so that's uh it's not monetary but it is uh time that we're

3:27:19not giving to the to the people that come up to the front desk that helps gotcha thank you sure

3:27:25councilmember schwarg and johnson please thank you for putting this together i i am one of the

3:27:35culprits that requested it and the reason i've requested so much detail along with the

3:27:44other members of council is because this is a significant change um because the insurance

3:27:55reimbursement has been offered for many years and people have had um you know the opportunity for

3:28:05participating in health activities um through that benefit we did fail as a town to reach out

3:28:17to our customer base which is our public and let them know that this was under consideration i

3:28:24know that you looked at the contract but people need to be heard and to also be informed of

3:28:38potential change because it helps them identify their priorities it helps them identify options

3:28:48and in the case of seniors there's less options available to them you know as you age you become

3:28:57less mobile you don't travel as far you may not drive you might need to take the shuttle

3:29:05it's more impactful to our senior population both resident and non-resident i calculated based on

3:29:17some of the slides that you presented today that with the use of the mafc it's approximately 62

3:29:27reimbursement you know rate based on current market rate or whatever so you're recovering

3:29:35if you will 62 versus 100 percent of the average membership fee um i also see that there the with

3:29:46the survey did you survey non-mafc members that are senior um mafc to me that would have been

3:29:57interesting to know why they don't go to mafc if they are msc members there's a reason some people

3:30:06do both but there's also a reason why some of the msc people do not participate in mafc and the

3:30:14reason is because they don't have the insurance perhaps they don't have solar sneakers on their

3:30:20medicare advantage plan um they might not want to swim you know they're they're not aquatic

3:30:27you know and they like um you know just the social aspect a lot more i mean i really think

3:30:34that we improved quite a bit on the social as well as some of the programming with that said

3:30:42we are not expanding our senior um center until late in 2027 and i think that with these proposed

3:30:52changes we're not doing enough of a discount for the impacted seniors in our population i would

3:30:59like to see it set between 65 and 70 percent of market rate just doing the calculations based on

3:31:07a reimbursement for more school seniors if we can think about that it's low i'm i don't know if i

3:31:15don't ask you can't say no but um but i am gonna just kind of say looking at you know the seniors

3:31:23that we have that are participating for 27 they can't really switch there's no capacity for them

3:31:30to switch they're active in the mefc and if we don't allow them to have insurance they might

3:31:37there's at least nine and that's not a statistically relevant sample but

3:31:42there's more than nine people that won't have access and i'm i'm just concerned and i want us

3:31:48to um recognize that we haven't um you know we don't have the capacity to accommodate them

3:31:58at the senior center right now yeah but we don't have the capacity to accommodate them and they

3:32:05may have seen either there's 230 people in the wait list the majority of the seniors are non-resident

3:32:12and focusing on more as well yeah is there a possibility that we could continue to take

3:32:19silver sneakers and just continue the other programs so we've already got um an instructor

3:32:27and mark please help me out on this one we've got an instructor who has already developed a

3:32:32program similar to silver sneakers it just won't be noted as silver sneakers so people can still

3:32:39join that that program silver sneakers is a is a copywriting program they'll still get the same

3:32:46benefits as a silver sneaker class i guess i was i guess i was asking if we could still

3:32:52provide insurance benefits for silver sneakers just that one program well that one's through

3:32:58too so that's one of the programs that's offered through an insurance provider so

3:33:06it depends on if we can get you know get the contract of the way we need it okay thank you

3:33:12that's all the questions oh i'm sorry yes councilmember johnson please yes thank you

3:33:26uh just a couple of comments and maybe one clarification uh thank you for offering

3:33:35saturday classes as a pilot at the morrisville senior center i think that's going to help

3:33:42tremendously that's my hope too i'm sure you are so i'm glad that's one of the options in the

3:33:50solution i've had to offer really good programming to our seniors having said that though i i think

3:33:58we need to do a good a better job of communicating that the membership at the morrisville senior

3:34:05center is free to morrisville residents i've had to clarify that a few times so i don't know where

3:34:14that confusion is coming from but uh our seniors receive free classes at the morrisville senior

3:34:23center and so we are really helping our seniors tremendously by offering that and um i appreciate

3:34:32also the 20 discount for seniors in 20 27 um going above the the 10 percent that you typically give

3:34:42so uh in january so thank you for that i i also appreciate the financial assistance and how we're

3:34:50going to kind of work work with our residents through that offering or assistance and then

3:35:00um here's my clarifying question are you still working with the insurance companies to try to

3:35:07come to some better partnership with them we we have not had any further conversations except

3:35:14the one that reached out to me um that is something we wanted to see what route we were

3:35:19going to be going um this way we have we will be um starting over with them if if we do continue

3:35:28so um those conversations can continue some of them some of them we can't get a person on the

3:35:34line so it's it's all via email okay yeah what whatever we can do to continue helping especially

3:35:47our senior population um i think would be very very welcomed and appreciated by me and i'm sure

3:35:55by most of all of us on council i don't want to speak for everyone else but um thank you for

3:36:04the presentation tonight too thank you yeah i appreciate the um the cost and the resources that

3:36:12i've gone into insurance i think pivoting away from that is probably the appropriate thing um

3:36:18for sustainability financially for us and i really appreciate how you're duplicating

3:36:23classes like silver sneakers um so that our residents will get the benefits even though

3:36:30they don't get the name of it um and i think we have to continue to be clear that mafc memberships

3:36:37are not the end all be all sac is free and we'd love to shift more people over there

3:36:44um and you just have to keep on letting us know that gets too crowded um we're cursed by our own

3:36:52success because you guys have done a really great job in an attractive place and it's very much

3:36:56about the socialization at that age um so we have to try to find the balance until we have

3:37:01the new space which is going to be a little bit larger um but i think the seniors really enjoy

3:37:08what they're getting and it's probably going to have to change a little bit as we sort of evolve

3:37:13into what is going to work best for them what is out breaking the bank for us so those are

3:37:20kind of my thoughts really good conversation um really appreciate everyone who's brought this

3:37:25before and made sure that we're addressing it in a meaningful way because we do get a lot of

3:37:30feedback um from that group and it's important because we are listening and we do hear them

3:37:37any thoughts from the town manager just quickly and this won't surprise you but you know this is

3:37:44a new approach to it so we'll evaluate as this goes we'll we'll see how this is working we'll

3:37:50see what the numbers look like for senior enrollment and we'll see as we get the expanded

3:37:55senior center open what is that impact in terms of classes so this is not a we're done this is a

3:38:01we're taking this step we'll continue to evaluate we certainly you know respect and want to be able

3:38:06to provide services to our seniors our resident seniors and our residents and whole to use mafc

3:38:11particularly so that that work that evaluation will continue anything else you want to share no

3:38:21thank you all very much appreciate the conversation laura thanks for being here appreciate it thank

3:38:25you and i only hear good things about mfc in your work mark so keep it up have a good team no

3:38:32doubt at this time we'll move on to item 15 b is in bravo this is a drone show discussion

3:38:39i'd like to recognize mary pertam or body if you want to sort of kick us off about your thoughts

3:38:44sure thank you everyone this is my item i requested that it come before council because

3:38:52there's been some discussion of uh augmenting the diwali show with a drone show um i believe

3:39:03that'll significantly impact the event both in positive ways i think way more people will come

3:39:11and in less positive ways with impact to staff and potentially impact to the user experience

3:39:23the event because we're having it a smaller venue staff has scaled the event back

3:39:28so uh tj you've done most of the work on the drone show do you want to explain what you've

3:39:35done and what the uh where we are now sure happy to i just i've prepared some words because that's

3:39:44how i roll um so diwali is one of morrisville's most cherished cultural celebrations and our

3:39:51proclamation recognizes it as a festival of light unity and community pride this year we have an

3:39:56opportunity to consider adding a drone light show which is a quiet inclusive visually meaningful

3:40:02way to honor diwali's traditions and share them with residents who may be experiencing the

3:40:07celebration for the very first time a few sponsors have already stepped forward and additional

3:40:12partners are exploring participation if council wishes staff can evaluate feasibility with no

3:40:18financial contribution from our taxpayers so this would only be external sponsorship support okay

3:40:27tonight is simply about deciding whether we want staff to explore this opportunity and this could

3:40:32provide a memorable experience for our community while remaining fully aligned with our policies

3:40:37and fully funded by private sponsors so we just recently um created a sponsorship program and we

3:40:44as a council decided to reduce our budget for special events so if we want to consider using

3:40:53sponsorships to keep our events at the same level or grow them because this used to be a fireworks

3:40:58event and now it's not going to be a fireworks event so i thought we pivoted drone shows which

3:41:03is sustainable quieter but usually about the same cost actually um this might be an opportunity for

3:41:09the town and this apparently would be the first diwali drone show in the state so i think there

3:41:16is some positives and this was a little bit um challenging in that it's kind of our first time

3:41:22going through this process it's a very new process and i was trying to make sure that staff time

3:41:28wasn't spent trying to create this opportunity so i took a little bit more on than i hope would

3:41:35ever have to happen in the future because once we have this process in place i imagine that in the

3:41:41future the council will look forward months in advance to certain events and uh get briefed by

3:41:48staff about what's part of the event and then if staff wants to give us like a menu of other

3:41:53things that could happen with sponsorship levels that might be a way to do it so it's actually

3:41:58staff driven this in this case it was kind of private person driven to start the idea and get

3:42:05the sponsors so i don't think this is the model but this is an outcome possibility so that's kind

3:42:12of what my thoughts were and recognize you and then go down the line yeah to just to be clear um

3:42:19so you have been talking to two vendors and the price is between fifteen thousand and twenty

3:42:27thousand dollars for the drone show the sponsorships that you've lined up from atlantic bank and

3:42:35fidelity investments fidelity investments so far cover ten thousand dollars correct okay and i so

3:42:47look i love a good drone show i mean i'm sure i've never seen one when i'm sure i love them i

3:42:51love everything shiny my i have a lot of problems around this specifically because i i just i i feel

3:43:03like there was just a lot done without the knowledge of council and i just really have a problem with

3:43:14with one council member not it's not because you know it's not that it's you i would have

3:43:20the same problem as satish or harrison did it or anyone but i don't think that we should be this

3:43:28deep in the weeds of what we have staff like these are this is operational and so i think it's

3:43:37a mistake to set the precedent that one council person can go rogue and make a material change

3:43:47to an event without the buy-in of the rest of the council because there will be staff time spent on

3:43:52this and there will be there will be i i don't i would have to defer to brandon on how exactly

3:44:05how much work this is going to be from the staff but i just don't think we should get in the habit

3:44:10of one person committing staff time or for that matter potentially taxpayer money to anything i

3:44:18think we should always do these things as a council so that's why i wanted to talk about this

3:44:26tonight so that we're all here we can all get on board and decide whether we should sign contract

3:44:35with a drone company which if if everyone on the council wants to sign a contract with a drone

3:44:42company i'm excited about that so it's not this isn't like the and versus tj show this is just

3:44:50to me a very necessary procedural step that we get the entire council on board with making this

3:44:58kind of a change and i also do want to say that i think you were trying i know that you weren't

3:45:03trying to do something really good here and that you expended considerable time and had pretty

3:45:11good results and i want to acknowledge that you know it's just that i to me it's a procedural

3:45:16question thank you okay point of privilege can just react a little bit before recognizing you

3:45:22is that okay so um yeah this is not the process that will be in the future right so right off

3:45:29the bat i mean if um superlative was doing this work in the background and then staff came forward

3:45:34and we've got sponsors we're gonna add a drone to it that would be different but the same i disagree

3:45:43that that would be in any way that's saying we we have a contract with superlative right that

3:45:49empowers them to do this work on behalf of staff and council so that's yeah that's why this won't

3:45:56happen again this way i mean we have a policy for sponsorship and things like that and how it goes

3:46:02and we don't approve a contract we went to a budget ordinance amendment as part of the process

3:46:08going forward so there's a lot of moving parts and i was just trying to do all the prep work

3:46:14as possible and i'm not naive i know that the staff has already spent more time than they wanted

3:46:18even talking about this and now we're using up everyone's time to talk about this so i understand

3:46:25completely where you're coming from and perhaps i should have brought this up in a round table

3:46:29that was a suggestion um didn't think to do that i thought it was just moving along and then it

3:46:34would be coming to the group in due time and now i think is the best time for it so i think this

3:46:40is the appropriate time so i'm glad that it's happening now so what i saw was councilmember

3:46:46scott johnson and councilmember patel and councilmember teslin if we can just keep that moving it's

3:46:51possible councilmember johnson might be still we'll keep an eye out for her okay okay lots

3:47:00to unpack here yeah i i i want to take this in two basic buckets the first bucket is about the

3:47:09event itself and and the change the material change and the second is the solution you know

3:47:17and i know that we've talked about the solution okay so first of all um dewali is a signature

3:47:24event that was initiated by our parks and recs cultural advisory committee several years ago

3:47:33they incubated this event by hosting it first time at cedar fork elementary and we had um a very

3:47:44meaningful lighting of um you know with council members and different um distinguished guests

3:47:55and then we grew that into a park and we had fireworks and we had dancing and we had routines

3:48:03and dewali is as i understand it the festival lights so it's it's customary to have fireworks

3:48:13it's customary to do certain things and i wasn't aware and i'm not sure when the decision was made

3:48:24to remove fireworks from the festival of lights it seems like a huge miss to me because it was

3:48:34not shared with the parking rex committee which is the committee that initially created the event

3:48:42so if it was a budget decision to say we don't have funding for fireworks then we should have

3:48:52activated our sponsor you know um company that is supposed to go out and seek sponsorships

3:49:00to maybe make up the shortfall for the fireworks which is customary for that event but at the

3:49:07minimum to bring it up to the park and recs committee which really were the um was the

3:49:14committee that initially took that festival on and added it to our town signature events

3:49:21so i think that's the first miss is we needed to focus on you know budget but we also need to

3:49:28focus on communication and engagement now i know the mayor learned about the fireworks being removed

3:49:38before i did because i just learned last week that it was being removed i i wasn't aware myself

3:49:45so there was a lack of communication to the town council members maybe not all but at least to me

3:49:52um but and um you had been trying to say okay we can't fireworks let's do something really cool

3:50:01again going back the process having one person with a great idea who's a council member any

3:50:13council member and and going and soliciting for funding and ideas and potential companies without

3:50:23the knowledge of the park and recs committee the staff and the other council members is not a full

3:50:30moon we need to kind of bring that up to a round table and i think there's a some confusion possibly

3:50:40um could be conveyed about what is feasible when um you know i don't know what's totally

3:50:48feasible with staffing needs and cost implications and contracts and liabilities and insurance

3:50:57that's why we have staff but um i certainly would have wanted to look first at what is the

3:51:05successful event and then looked at the different options drones are one of the options but

3:51:13reinstating the fireworks is also an option or making the event by annual so we could afford

3:51:21the fireworks instead of every year maybe we do it every other year but we have not really

3:51:28had the um conversation to know that there was a material change and had that discussed

3:51:38with now less than a month away thank you and just for the record september 17th is our

3:51:50up close uh council member patel followed by council member kesslyn followed by council member

3:51:54johnson all right so yeah there is a lot to unpack because i too wasn't aware that the fireworks was

3:52:04being eliminated for this year uh i thought perhaps i missed something during one of the

3:52:13meetings but good to know that you have the same opinion um as far as drone show i don't know

3:52:22whether i'm for it against it without really knowing what the cost of fireworks was last

3:52:29year does anybody have any idea so we did a small show about a 10 minute show and i believe that

3:52:40was under ten thousand dollars again that the show comparably that we do for july third is

3:52:45considerably more expensive but the the one we did for diwali last year was around ten thousand

3:52:52that's my understanding yes okay so for would this same sponsors be interested in doing the

3:53:01fire or sponsoring the fireworks show i'm not sure but if they are that's the path perhaps we

3:53:07can uh we can pursue but i don't mind uh someone going out and soliciting uh vendors asking if

3:53:21they'll be interested in sponsoring something uh did we enter any contract i heard mentioned so we

3:53:28haven't entered any contract with any vendors we haven't to answer that the proposals that they

3:53:36put forth some of those were signed from their end like committing to be able to provide this

3:53:41at this cost and then staff after council authorization we complete a contract by

3:53:47signing our site so they they sent proposals to us so nothing is signed or committed by us

3:53:55so yes in good faith you uh mayor was probably just trying to get something if fireworks were

3:54:06canceled but i did not know that uh the drone show would actually cost more than the firework

3:54:12show we had done last year if that is the case and if we have sponsors still willing to do

3:54:20fireworks that that is something we should consider there are some cities in india who

3:54:27who have done drone show instead of fireworks uh but very few uh fireworks is still tradition

3:54:36right so if you ask uh if you're spending same amount of money whether it's sponsors money or

3:54:42our money uh i would prefer uh fireworks uh but if you're doing drone show was cheaper

3:54:49than significantly cheaper then i would consider that council member castling please so i understand

3:55:00the concerns around learning about the lack of the fireworks only recently um i can grasp that

3:55:07um that being said i i don't like the position this has put staff in um where they're where

3:55:15they're having to react to uh to this um they're already maxed out on capacity and um you know

3:55:22just feel for them on that front um i say that though to say that i think that a drone show

3:55:30is potentially very fitting for morrisville morrisville being a more technologically

3:55:36receptive community i think it would go over quite well um and i would like to uh to to

3:55:43in the interest of having a productive conversation here i would like to direct staff to investigate

3:55:49it for inclusion in the fy 28 budget uh for red white and boom and or diwali and with that

3:55:58understanding the environmental impacts as well as the cost of the drones versus the fireworks

3:56:03environmental impacts being noise air pollution uh energy consumption those sorts of things

3:56:09so i would hope to look for a second round of consensus on uh investigating that for fy 28

3:56:15thank you i recognize council member johnson followed by council member garamilla um so thank you

3:56:29first i i really want to thank mayor pro temro body if it wasn't for her bringing this whole

3:56:36issue forward i still wouldn't know any of this um and that in itself is incredibly problematic

3:56:46and that's why i want to repeat some of the comments that mayor pro temro body made about

3:56:56process and procedure and transparency quite frankly um it is really important that we are

3:57:04all on the same page and no one of us no one elected official should be going out

3:57:13and doing any kind of staff work or operational work if if this was a concern a couple of weeks

3:57:24ago or months ago it should have been brought before council then and we as a group could have

3:57:29had a more timely discussion on an event that's happening in five weeks so i'm disappointed about

3:57:39the way this has all transpired and and and that we only have five weeks now to make any kind of

3:57:49changes or or to weigh in on anything there are a lot of questions i have about

3:57:54a drone show versus a fireworks show and i would have loved the opportunity to have our staff be

3:58:01the ones who would investigate all of that and bring us information and and i'm not sure

3:58:07we have time for any of that to happen before again an event that's going to happen in in five

3:58:12weeks so um as far as drones i'm a drone show would be fabulous i think to have but i think

3:58:23more work needs to go into this whole investigation of a drone show and it should be done by our

3:58:32staff not by an elected official and i'm also concerned that we have an elected official with

3:58:38a contract that's been signed by a vendor none of us should be getting into any of that ever

3:58:46ever um so yeah i don't i don't at this point i would like our staff to weigh in and tell us

3:58:57where they're at as far as the um planning of the of the wally event and and how much um they can

3:59:08or can't do at this point okay if we could hear from council member garamela first then we can

3:59:15hear from staff does that sound good yeah that's that's fine thank you okay and then it looks like

3:59:22council member patel wants a second round of thoughts before we do that and maybe mayor

3:59:27patel everybody council member garamela please yeah um pretty much um i would say six out of

3:59:36the seven did not know like the diva in fireworks was the money was taken out and that's and that

3:59:46too if it is only 10k i think that's one of the i don't want to use the word that mess but i would

3:59:55say it is done. We have set up presidents.

4:00:00Your set of presidents of fireworks. We have more than 50% of the population who celebrate

4:00:07Diwali and taking the fireworks out is I'm surprised like everyone else here and so if

4:00:21money was a constraint in the past a lot of organizations have come forward to have collaboration

4:00:31and Town of Morrisville they want to participate with them. I know Babs will be more than happy

4:00:36to come to the fireworks, HSNC would be happy to do the fireworks with them and if needed

4:00:43we can even raise $20,000, $25,000 if be it for fireworks and they would love to join

4:00:50the bandwagon to be a part of it but not knowing that and then I understand TJ with

4:01:01the good intent trying to find a solution to do that is in a way like you know I have

4:01:14my own doubts with this whole sponsorship thing because it's been almost two years now

4:01:18we don't have a contract I can't basically take saying hey someone wants to give a sponsorship

4:01:24I can't even give them a document as of today saying because and that's bothering for me

4:01:32because we had WIGMAD and like I had Town Bank who wanted to give big sponsors but

4:01:39not a single document till now after two years signing the contract we have it engaged and

4:01:45that is very bothersome for me and now you know if they are getting $5,000 what does

4:01:51that really mean for them okay we are just saying okay what is we are getting a $5,000

4:01:57what does that encompass do we use their names how do we use it we have no documents

4:02:04to even reference any of them what is a $5,000 in title so this whole thing is pretty frustrating

4:02:12to me honestly just listening especially if it is only $10,000 in the whole huge budget

4:02:21that we have and if needed we could have kicked in our sponsorship way ahead or partner

4:02:29with other organizations here would have caught all the money that needed drone might

4:02:36be a good idea but people have not been used to it still so it is like asking from a person

4:02:47who has celebrated the value of my life is if I ask you July 4th do a drone show yeah

4:02:55you would say yes but a majority of the people will say you know it is not what it is it

4:03:01is fireworks it is fireworks you know I am going to say it is like some say it is sustainability

4:03:07pollution and all those things but that is how they have been thrown out with you know

4:03:14divided fireworks and you know those kind of things so I do not know if we need with

4:03:23so many drones FAA permissions I do not know how much the height restrictions and those

4:03:28things and yeah but the time frame of to pull it together that is all fine yeah so

4:03:34so then how much is it easy to pull the fireworks is it easy to pull the fireworks within that

4:03:43time within one month I do not believe there is any chance of scheduling fireworks five

4:03:50weeks out particularly given the number of other Diwali celebrations that occur in this

4:03:54area say nothing a larger region but no one does fireworks like we do we do like we get

4:04:00a vendor to do it I do not think anyone does that I mean we could try to reach out I am

4:04:06just telling you five weeks out from the Diwali weekend I do not think there is any

4:04:10likelihood that there is going to be a vendor available to explore because July 4th is

4:04:21pretty hot season this is not that hot season especially there are no other town does it

4:04:26no other temples basically engage them again but understand the five week period if it

4:04:33is possible or not that is a you know you have to have wake county and all those permissions

4:04:38and whatever is needed but but Brandon like you know I think I think for TJ point of

4:04:45view you know he went into solution mode which reality is we should all I would have

4:04:52flagged it before if we had no then 10,000 is not a big deal at all seriously and and

4:05:02from when I hear that it bothers me more than there is no fireworks so again check

4:05:12what can be done or if you want to push the date a week later so be it alright I am liking

4:05:22it I am just because I think we understand where you are at here I also counsel member

4:05:32tell and then I am sorry sorry okay everybody so couple of things I would like to know

4:05:37is when was the decision made to not have fireworks for Diwali and who made that decision

4:05:44did we make decision at some point that it directly or indirectly I would say that

4:05:49when we did our budget discussion and said that we are going to limit the special events

4:05:54and we gave staff the direction to do that then that was there.

4:05:59So what is the special event budget then how much do we have in it?

4:06:04So I would have to look the number up I do not have that on top of that we could probably

4:06:08look while we are talking so after every special event there is an after action and

4:06:14so following the Diwali event last year the discussion by our special events group was

4:06:19that they were struggling with getting people to attend the event they were struggling

4:06:24with finding a day that did not conflict with another event in the area because again

4:06:28there are a number of temples and other organizations that do this type of thing so they had shared

4:06:33that their interest was potentially reducing the scope of our Diwali event because we do

4:06:38any number of other cultural events that are bigger and are unique more to our community

4:06:44than not others do was there was a number of Diwali opportunities.

4:06:49So that then led into when we talked in the budget and I will have to go back and watch

4:06:52the video but my recollection is that we did share that during that conversation about

4:06:57reducing the special events budget and we shared that there were not going to be fireworks

4:07:02because that was what that special event reduction would equate to and for some of

4:07:06the reasons I just shared based on attendance and trying to perhaps focus on other larger

4:07:12events that were more unique to Morrisville and scale back the scope of the Diwali event

4:07:17here.

4:07:18So I believe and I will go back and look at the video and confirm that this was decided

4:07:23after last year's event by staff and then it was shared with council as a part of the

4:07:27budget process related to the fact we're going to cut the special events budget and

4:07:32that that lined up well with what our intention was regarding the event.

4:07:36Okay so this was something that happened last year after the event?

4:07:40After Diwali we always do an after action and that was the discussion that we were

4:07:44making a considerable investment for a relatively small crowd compared to other events that

4:07:49we hosted.

4:07:51Thank you very much understood thank you and as far as mayor's attempt to find sponsors

4:08:01I keep hearing operational so what was operational about and I just want to understand in future

4:08:10what the boundaries are what was operational about someone going and asking potential

4:08:20sponsors if they'll be interested in something or was this when you're referring to operational

4:08:25or you're talking about something more than that.

4:08:28For me when I'm talking about operational I'm talking about talking to vendors about

4:08:33contract terms and well yeah and talking to talking to businesses about sponsorship

4:08:44and and changing the parameters of an event that's already in planning but the other

4:08:54thing is in my opinion I don't I think that we've exposed ourselves to some reputational

4:09:01risk if we now go back to them and say we're not going to do a drone show we're going

4:09:09to do fireworks can you sponsor it anyway or if we say never mind we don't need your

4:09:16money we're not going to do a drone show like either way I just think that it just

4:09:20makes the whole thing look so you know but operationally what I'm talking about is contract

4:09:28negotiation sponsorship sponsorship discussions beyond the discussion of hey would you be

4:09:36willing to sponsor this event great here's a staff person to talk to you know you you

4:09:41don't you don't I just don't think that you you I just don't think that's our link is

4:09:50the thing like it I just don't think it's our link.

4:09:54I don't recollect that information after your debriefing that was even came to us

4:10:17at least that this I can understand like you know getting a date with the body it's

4:10:24so many events it's pretty much like we removed the parade more as we used to have a winter

4:10:31fest parade and all those things we were not able to compete with Apex carry and other

4:10:36areas so we took it out but that was addition that everyone knew but this particular one

4:10:42I am struggling to figure out like when that was removed to be honest I just don't so

4:10:51I think maybe the thing to focus on tonight though is what are we going what should we

4:10:59do and so Brandon did you do your recommendation my recommendation would be that at this point

4:11:11we are five weeks out that we proceed with the event as planned by our staff if council

4:11:17wants to have a conversation about a drone event in the future we are certainly open

4:11:21to doing that and doing the necessary research to understand what that looks like for us

4:11:28how would it impact our event what might it mean on attendance which in turn impacts

4:11:32staff needs and other things it would give us some time to potentially reach out to other

4:11:37communities that have done this type of show and ideally also check references on if the

4:11:43two companies that the mayor has identified are the companies that we would want to work

4:11:47with or if we need to look in another direction I think it would be extremely challenging

4:11:52to try to do anything right now so again our parts and rec staff intended to send

4:11:58to print last Friday all the materials that we would print and use for advertising on

4:12:03this I have asked them to hold that until after tonight's discussion and so that they

4:12:08will be you know five days behind if they order it tomorrow if we try to change that

4:12:14in any way they would have to modify all that which would put us further behind putting

4:12:18that out there so I think there are real challenges with trying to proceed with altering

4:12:25the event at this point really in any way given the time frame.

4:12:38I hear you council members from Chelsea.

4:12:43So I will ask council if we can't have fireworks should we cancel the event and consider what

4:12:56we want to do with the event for next year drones fireworks combination of drone and

4:13:02fireworks sponsors I'm worried about the expectation that fireworks and we're not

4:13:14having fireworks for something that is standard practice so I just want to hear from folks

4:13:22do we want to have an event that fireworks yes or no I mean it's going to be a good

4:13:31event either way this would just be an augmentation so that's my answer thank you for your answer

4:13:37I'm skeptical thank you so I don't think that this necessarily falls on to under a sunk

4:13:52cost I'm not in favor of altering the event either adding fireworks or cancelling the

4:14:00event entirely I think that we made the decision on the budget and staff is executing that

4:14:10budget and if we have community backlash about the lack of fireworks that's on us we're

4:14:16supposed to be taking the heat on that and not staff I don't think we should be putting

4:14:21staff in a position where they're having to react to react to this so with that I

4:14:30do want this conversation to be productive so I'll propose propose if we can find consensus

4:14:40to have staff investigated for discussion potentially inclusion in the FY 28 budget

4:14:46for either red white and boom or Diwali and or Diwali including all of the impacts that

4:14:53we that have been discussed for this evening I support that Harrison I think that lead

4:15:03time and ramp up time and analysis both environmentally as well as financially is a prudent way forward

4:15:14for next year but then again let's think about this year and to respond to that my

4:15:22thoughts this year are not doing anything different than what was going to happen you

4:15:28know without our input at this point in time tell them the body actually actually I had

4:15:39Councilman Johnson to tell everybody thank you so I hear the concern about the event

4:15:50I am concerned about it to being successful and the expectation of the public but I don't

4:15:57want to cancel it the fireworks were fabulous at the event but that was only part of the

4:16:05event I remember dancing a whole lot with the community to the music that was being

4:16:15played so I I don't want to cancel the event I want to make it the best event it can be

4:16:22at this point five weeks out but I also and I hear that's the decision we have to or

4:16:30the conversation we really have to have right now but I do think we need to have another

4:16:36conversation at another time about roles and responsibilities of elected officials

4:16:43and staff and make sure we are all really clear on how we are going to all work together

4:16:51as a team going forward because I think I disagree with Councilmember Kessling a little

4:16:57bit I think there's a little bit of blame to go around here with all of us so I think

4:17:05we should have that discussion but it's that can come later and we need to have a successful

4:17:11Diwali event this year thank you for that councilmember Patel followed by Mayor Patel

4:17:18Diwali so I too would like to like us to continue event as planned without drone or

4:17:28fireworks however it may be it will still be very entertaining event and one thing

4:17:36I would disagree with councilmember Kessling also is that this was not necessarily budget

4:17:43decision as Tonga explained it was some analysis was done at the end of or after last last

4:17:53year's event and it was determined that we just didn't have enough participation for

4:18:00fireworks and and also conflicting dates so that was the reason not the budget so

4:18:05I wouldn't necessarily say we put them the situation and it was already decided and I

4:18:12know you and I were not part of that conversation but I don't think we are putting it on town

4:18:18staff in this case because this was not budget earlier I'd like to recognize the town attorney

4:18:33please Mayor I wanted to just chime in a little bit on a couple of points going back

4:18:39to the process and the procedure I think any elected official going out and contacting

4:18:46vendors getting proposals negotiating contracts is inconsistent with the council manager

4:18:54form of government that's the form of government we've operated under for years you're the

4:19:00policy makers staff carries out your direction and that is inconsistent with the council

4:19:09member going out and negotiating a contract so I would advise you not to do that to council

4:19:17member Battelle's point councilmember Kessling you all have contacts out in the community

4:19:24if you say do you think your banker or your insurance agent might be a good sponsor for

4:19:30an event you ask them and if they say well I might be you direct it here and maybe they

4:19:38direct it to our sponsorship company but that's how it should work and more than just the

4:19:45you know theory I think it could put you in a bad situation there could be misunderstanding

4:19:54if I'm a vendor and you came to me and you said hey would you like to submit a proposal

4:20:03for you know fill in the blank well I got partners I got a boss I got to go and get

4:20:11that and I submit the proposal I'm thinking if an elected official is coming to me this

4:20:16must be pretty important so I take it seriously and then I found out a week later that somebody

4:20:22else has been solicited for a proposal maybe that's my competitor I mean it just puts

4:20:28you in the middle of something that's not right for an elected official there could

4:20:35be misunderstandings some companies have policies against negotiating with elected

4:20:41officials I mean it's just it gets complicated and so I would just encourage you not to

4:20:48do it and if you have contacts in the communities you think might be interested in sponsoring

4:20:54donating whatever you ask them and if they say yes I might have some interest in that

4:21:00you funnel it back to the professional you know if there's an RFP process and everybody

4:21:08in that world has a chance to submit a proposal fine but you're not going to know who's in

4:21:15that world you know you just can't you can't be the staff and the policymaker so that'd

4:21:22be my advice to you it's good advice which I plan to adhere to so I'm hearing that well

4:21:38let's kind of put this forward I heard from two people councilmember Patel and councilmember

4:21:44Kessling to go forward with the event as is no changes I think councilman Johnson said

4:21:50that as well yeah that correct councilmember Garamela and myself would be interested in

4:21:56investigating whether or not there could be fireworks or drone he's on fireworks I'm

4:22:03on drone I'm sorry I will first do if fireworks is possible if not you know it is what it

4:22:14is I don't want additional burden but if they can do it and there's all permitting

4:22:20and all those things then yeah if not don't do it the drone permitting is going forward

4:22:30already but the key is maybe the people did not ask for drone we came up with a solution

4:22:35of a drone you know so it's personally I wouldn't go for fireworks if at all possible

4:22:52a drone would be good but not it on a diwali day especially especially when our people

4:22:57are expecting it so right now I count two people who would be interested in staff continuing

4:23:03to investigate your thoughts councilman Johnson I'm gonna be very clear since council still

4:23:11wants to have the event I support that but I would like fireworks if we can do it but

4:23:22I do not support the drones at this time I think more investigation needs to be done

4:23:27but I appreciate the thought about you know the technology it does align with their values

4:23:41I just don't think we should have a drone show for 2026 so thank you everybody would

4:23:54you support a fireworks investigation by staff I don't think there's time and I think staff's

4:24:00been really clear about I would support challenge I would support doing the event the way it

4:24:07was I think we've given staff enough challenges for this year okay I'm sorry do not hear support

4:24:14of changing the event in any way from a consensus accurate I'm not sure if the two sponsors

4:24:28would be interested if it wasn't a drone show but that's easily to remedy so pretty much

4:24:34just putting everything back to staff and I'm happy to facilitate any of those conversations

4:24:42that would be appropriate going forward the other thing I would remind you is that you

4:24:48know we have a policy for when applications are due when changes can be made to events

4:24:54and so this would be a tier one event that deadline would have been three weeks ago we

4:24:58would not allow the public to make this type of change at this phase of the timeline for

4:25:04the event to occur we're already passed our own deadline to advertise materials again I

4:25:12think it would be almost regardless of availability of a vendor very very difficult to make that

4:25:19sort of change in scope to the event at this point okay any final thoughts on that seeing

4:25:30none good productive meeting tonight got a lot done I'd entertain a motion is there

4:25:35anything for the order sir confirming that the consensus of counsel is the event continues

4:25:41as is with other amazing amenities and opportunities for the public to participate in and it gives

4:25:48us another opportunity to evaluate the attendance and the interest and get participant feedback

4:25:54and do an after action and that we can come back to you and further discussions about

4:26:00maybe expectations of upcoming events so that we could give some input earlier and

4:26:08I'll recognize councilmember Patel so just mention that since we will not be doing fireworks

4:26:16perhaps we try to figure out which other organizations or temples are doing firewalls

4:26:23on each day and maybe we help promote that event so that way at least people get a chance

4:26:29to go see the fireworks at least from our personal social media we can promote it yeah

4:26:39I think that's what we're it is and that's what that's not town staff correct yes please

4:26:45share please share all that and you'll try to make sure that everyone gets to celebrate

4:26:49Diwali as much as possible because there's always multiple events okay excellent um I'd

4:26:56entertain a motion to adjourn I'll second motion from mayor pretend to return this meeting

4:27:03a second from councilmember Patel all those in favor of a journey please say aye aye any

4:27:08opposed hearing none that carries unanimously 6-0 it is 10-13 we are adjourned thank you