2026-07-21 - Climate Resiliency Committee

0:01committee is meeting at 7:01

0:04p.m. Um, attending is uh the climate

0:09resilient council.

0:12>> Oh, anyway, um Mark Vital, Trey Fello,

0:17plus we have Priscilla and Ryder and Ted

0:22uh Scott uh representing the operations

0:25of the city. Um, we are waiting for

0:28folks from Black Swan Labs to show up.

0:32Uh, I think Audrey, I'm not sure if

0:35Karen's showing up, but Audrey showing

0:37up. She's the

0:39Did you guys see the prior

0:41>> I did watch.

0:43>> Okay. Okay. Um, so Audrey and Karen are

0:45from Black Swan Labs. Um, are you guys I

0:50I there's a lot of issues that are

0:52coming up. So, one of the things I want

0:54to get straightened out actually ahead

0:56of time is basically when the next

0:58meeting can be because I want to try to

1:00set up a meeting before the next city

1:04council meeting. Uh, looks like August

1:064th is available. Um, maybe late the

1:11second week of August and then late the

1:13first week in September because of

1:14schedule constraints. Um, what do you

1:17guys get? Are you guys available on

1:19August 4th?

1:22Trey asking me.

1:23>> Yeah, you and

1:24>> well, again, I was mentioning to you

1:26last night, if we have if we're just

1:28exploring.

1:29>> I'd rather not,

1:33>> you know, I don't want to just explore

1:34everything on the planet, I'd rather

1:36have a plan of action,

1:37>> right?

1:37>> So, so hopefully we find out from our

1:40experts.

1:40>> Yeah. Well, I think the other the other

1:42thing I wanted to talk about with um I

1:46was talking with the solicitor is um is

1:50it possible to do a referendum ballot on

1:54uh

1:55you know on the 2027 election and I want

2:01to discuss that within committee that

2:05>> that would be on August 4th if that's

2:06okay with you guys.

2:08You good?

2:10Yes, Trey.

2:11>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, August 4th

2:13can totally accommodate. I know

2:15September 1st I will definitely not be

2:17available. Um

2:18>> Oh, that week, right?

2:20>> That week I will likely be unavailable.

2:22Um

2:23>> Okay.

2:23>> That that Monday and in the

2:25>> Yeah, not the Monday, but later on. I

2:26mean, yeah. Yeah, the first what? Um

2:30>> but yeah.

2:31>> Gotcha. So, you're saying you would like

2:33to do something later the week cuz So,

2:35we we can talk about that kind of later

2:36on, but I will confirm August 4th. Okay.

2:39So, let's let's focus. We'll be here on

2:40August 4th. We'll do that and then from

2:42there we'll figure out

2:43>> do August 4th.

2:43>> You cannot do August.

2:44>> Three appointments.

2:45>> Okay.

2:46>> Including the board of health which is I

2:48must be at the board of health.

2:49>> Okay. Uh what about uh the 5th which is

2:53the Wednesday?

2:55>> Wednesday.

3:01>> Mr. Chair.

3:01>> Yes sir.

3:03>> August 5th would be a bit of a difficult

3:05date for me. I think I could make it

3:06work should we need to. Um, I do agree

3:08with councelor Vital though. I think

3:10>> just also on the fourth, I would like to

3:12know that counselors go to it as well,

3:15but that's the first annual hopefully

3:17law enforcement national night out

3:20>> on what day?

3:20>> It's kind of the 4th.

3:22>> Oh,

3:23>> starts at 4:00, goes until 8:00. No, it

3:26starts at 5:00 and goes to 8:00. I put

3:28four o'clock to set up.

3:29>> Okay.

3:30>> So, you know, that's supposed to be a

3:31big kind of

3:32>> thing that the police department's

3:34doing. So, hopefully us counselors will

3:36support that. Oh, absolutely.

3:39>> Um, so the fifth doesn't work. How about

3:41the sixth,

3:45>> Mr. Chair?

3:46>> Yes, sir.

3:46>> I I know I'll definitely be out that

3:48evening as well. Um, I'll be working,

3:50but um, you know, I I'd be happy to kind

3:53of figure out a date, you know, pursuant

3:55to this meeting tonight. I see see what

3:57we come up with, see what our next

3:58action steps are. Obviously, it sounds

4:00like we have some idea, right? A

4:01referendum question we need to discuss

4:03and we'll have more info. Right.

4:05>> What about the Monday night? Monday the

4:063rd.

4:10>> Depend again. Kind of depends on what

4:12time. I I'll be candid. Um I know I have

4:15a work event from 3:00 to 5:00 that that

4:17afternoon, but I I'm sure I could get

4:18back here in time for um

4:20>> 7:00 7:30.

4:21>> Yeah, for 7:00 7:30. I'm sure I could do

4:23that.

4:24>> Okay. So, let's let's right now assume

4:26it's going to be on the 3rd. Is that

4:27okay with you?

4:28>> It is.

4:29>> Okay.

4:30And I'll confirm it. I'll confirm it

4:32with the uh city solicitor. make sure he

4:34can show up for that.

4:37Okay.

4:45Okay. Um so as far as new business goes,

4:51um there were two well two primary

4:55issues. The last two are kind of tied

4:57together. Um Katie Roby sent out um a

5:02link to a presentation about uh climate

5:06law and

5:09um I was looking up some of this

5:10information. This is just cut and pasted

5:12from the descriptions. So basically the

5:16states introducing a new climate law

5:19standard uh that everything needs to be

5:21permitted within a year. Um

5:26and it must be started by October 1st.

5:30So um there was a presentation that was

5:32done earlier. Did you see the

5:34presentation on this or is this

5:35Priscilla or

5:38>> Yeah, we saw this presentation. We've

5:40talked about it in site plan review.

5:42This is an optional option. So that the

5:46battery storage are allowed by the Dover

5:49amendment. So they're allowed anywhere

5:51in the community. What the state is

5:53trying to say is if if if

5:56a build builder wants to has to go

5:59through a bunch of different um boards

6:01to get approval, then they may want to

6:05do this consolidated process and get one

6:07permit instead of three or four.

6:10>> Sure.

6:10>> And so we're working with legal to

6:13figure out how how that sets up because

6:16you you want it to be in place in case

6:18somebody wants to use that, right? Um

6:22it may be that nobody uses it. It

6:24depends on, you know, whether it's to

6:26their advantage or not. Um we're pretty

6:29quick at giving permits, so it's not a

6:31big huge issue, but um

6:34>> so we're working on that and we're we're

6:37trying to figure out the the legalities.

6:39The state is still

6:42>> um figuring out some of the logistics on

6:45the safety aspects of what's required

6:47with battery storage. there is some fire

6:49issue that's related to them.

6:51>> Um we've had four or five companies come

6:54to this city already saying you know

6:56we're National Bridge has said they they

6:59need some some storage here in order to

7:01distribute. So we are already getting

7:03inquiries and we've all said the state

7:06still hasn't given us all the direction.

7:07So, we're, you know, it's it's a moving

7:10target. Um, okay.

7:11>> At the moment, but we're definitely

7:12aware the site plan review committee's

7:15reviewed it. And

7:16>> thank you for the update, though. It's

7:17much more than I expected to [laughter]

7:18hear.

7:19>> There you go.

7:20>> Um, okay. I mean, the one thing that I

7:23noticed is, you know, uh, 25 megawws of

7:26generation is like 5,000 solar panels or

7:28something stupid like that. I mean, it's

7:30outrageous number of panels or

7:32something. Um and then uh yeah 100

7:35megawatts of battery storage is I think

7:38multiple uh uh tractor trailer trailer

7:43you know trailer fulls batteries and

7:44stuff. Um

7:47but okay if it thank you for the update

7:49for it being in process really

7:50>> and the bigger the bigger ones are going

7:51to be um issued by the state and the

7:54smaller ones are going to be issued by

7:55municipalities. So it's they have they

7:57have a tiered system.

7:58>> Okay. So anything above 25 megawws power

8:02generation still has to be done by the

8:03state.

8:04>> I believe I believe that's the case. I

8:05think the community still has some input

8:07but

8:08>> right

8:08>> it's um we're still figuring that all of

8:10that out.

8:10>> And below 25 megawws is pretty much one

8:14process to to be done.

8:17>> It can be it can also just use existing

8:19system. It just just depends on what

8:22what what hurdles they have to go

8:24through and

8:25>> Okay. And we're we're

8:28expecting that by October we will have a

8:30system that's in place that if they

8:33choose to use that option we have it

8:35ready. So

8:36>> and you think you're going to be ready

8:37by October 1st?

8:39>> That's what we're working on if that's

8:41what's required?

8:42>> Uh best of luck with that. See?

8:46Okay. Um,

8:49[clears throat]

8:49so the the second and third scenario,

8:54um, you you two were copied on the email

8:56that we got back from Black Swan Labs.

8:59Uh, basically

9:01the 30-in sewer main that goes under the

9:05sewer burr in front of countryside.

9:09um has the potential to if we can

9:13capture the thermal heat to heat and

9:15cool a significant amount of those

9:17units. And um basically

9:22the state has a whole bunch of uh grants

9:25and incentives to and they want to make

9:28this happen specifically because it's

9:30also um low-income housing affordability

9:34and everything. So, um

9:38I think that is

9:41a a microcosm of what my proposal has is

9:44trying to do. Um because basically you

9:48have the land owner who owns the

9:51building, owns the property. Uh the

9:53tenant is basically renting, you know,

9:57the building, you know, unit in the

9:58building. Um, and

10:02[clears throat] the opportunity is using

10:04state and federal grants plus, you know,

10:08we this the city can do tiffs to help

10:11fund this. Uh, so that at the end the

10:16landowner pays for a system to deliver

10:21thermal services to their tenants.

10:26and we or

10:30the city is the role basically the

10:33utility is a broker between the two. So

10:37you know whoever gen you know you you

10:39can have multiple situations where land

10:42you know land owners may have thermal

10:44exchange networks in place um either

10:48through geothermal wells or you know

10:50wastewater heat extraction

10:53um and then

10:57they sell it to the city as a middleman

11:00and then the city sells it to the actual

11:02tenants. And if the tenants are on the

11:07same property, it doesn't matter. It's

11:09still the same. If the tenants are a

11:11couple of, you know, lots further ahead,

11:15still doesn't matter. The the landlord

11:17is still making money. You know, um, in

11:20this case, because of affordable

11:22housing, you know, the the city the the

11:25state's providing a lot of incentives to

11:27do this.

11:29Last night after the city council

11:31meeting, I was talking to the developer

11:34on Forest Street that wanted to do the

11:36Forest Street extension and I said,

11:39"Would you guys be interested in

11:41developing

11:43a thermal exchange network to sell

11:45heating cooling to your clients?" You

11:47made it in. We did.

11:49>> Congratulations. Thank you.

11:51>> Can you sit in the well with these two?

11:53>> Okay, sure.

11:54>> Yes, you too.

11:55>> You answered enough questions yesterday.

11:57you deserve to be in here.

11:59So, Audrey,

12:02um Aaron, that's Priscilla and Ted.

12:05>> Hi.

12:06>> Nice to meet you.

12:06>> Nice to meet you, too.

12:09>> I appreciate everyone being in the well

12:11for this. Um,

12:13so what I was just doing is talking

12:15about um the thermal, you know, the

12:18potential the thermal exchange project

12:20for um the Boston uh Boston Post Road

12:24East uh the C the um

12:28uh the Highland. No, what's the any the

12:32project

12:33>> wastewater energy thing

12:35>> wastewater capture? Okay.

12:37>> The the D mass D wastewater energy

12:39recovery grant. Yes. Okay. So, what is

12:43the process required to to put submit to

12:46that grant? Cuz you guys said that you'd

12:49be doing it through Black Swan Labs. Can

12:50you just do a

12:51>> Yeah, I can answer that. So, um

12:53>> and speak into the mic.

12:54>> Sure.

12:56>> Uh

12:58so, the phase one is the feasibility

13:00study only, which is what you'd be

13:02starting with. Uh it's a $15,000 grant

13:05and a lot of it is very basic questions

13:08about your town, your organizational

13:10structure and the energy use of your

13:13sewer system right now like the flow

13:15rate, things like that. So basically

13:16sewer information

13:18um and then there's a project narrative

13:21um which we have we can help draft for

13:24you. We've done this for South Hadley

13:25where we answer questions about like

13:27what is sort of your vision for this

13:29project. um it does not have to be um

13:32extremely detailed because part of the

13:34feasibility study is figuring out what's

13:36possible. So it's really like a one to

13:38two page a couple of key questions of

13:41your organizational structure. Who are

13:42the key people and sort of your what are

13:44what's your proposed project and in this

13:46case we're proposing a feasibility study

13:48to explore this and where is it and who

13:51does it serve and things like that. It's

13:53so the first phase is a very relatively

13:55simple grant. It's nothing that your DPW

13:58or your sewer folks have not done many

14:01many times.

14:03>> Okay.

14:03>> I can I even have all the questions that

14:05I can forward to. Sure. Uh, one other

14:07quick thing is that um, this is a little

14:09bit more nuanced than probably

14:10necessary, but the D recognized that

14:13their the way they structured their

14:15grant application was a was not um,

14:19differentiated enough for the three

14:21phases. And when we asked a lot of

14:23questions about just phase one, was that

14:25really necessary for just phase one

14:26applicants? They're like, you know what,

14:28we're going to we're going to kind of

14:30redo the phase one thing and we'll let

14:32we'll post it on our website. So,

14:34there's going to still be a little bit

14:35more revision, my guess, making it even

14:37simpler. Um, but for now, we think we

14:41know the majority of the questions with

14:43possibly a few tweaks that'll come out

14:44in the next two weeks or so.

14:48So that so the actual definition of the

14:52feasibility is

14:53>> phase one

14:54>> phase one is to be determined in another

14:55two weeks or so before

14:57>> the full the full um the full details of

15:00what the grant will require will be

15:03definitive in the next couple weeks. I

15:05do think we know the majority of it now

15:08but they might do a little nuance

15:10tweets.

15:11>> Okay. Um,

15:15so one question I have, uh, I looked it

15:18up before, but when does the land owner

15:20get involved with this feasibility?

15:24>> You said the landlord,

15:25>> the land owner, landlord, land owner.

15:28>> Um, so uh, we can uh, tell them early

15:31on. I assume it's a the selected the

15:34site that looks like the best would be

15:36that affordable housing uh site on

15:40Boston Post Road,

15:41>> right?

15:42>> Um and uh so it would be good to

15:45approach them earlier rather than later

15:47to let them know about it and make sure

15:48that they're they're interested, but in

15:50general most affordable housing uh tends

15:53to want to go towards uh clean energy

15:55and has a lot of uh mandates that they

15:57should do that.

15:59>> Right. just to add like I I think we

16:01could also be helpful there and maybe

16:03making a one-pager of you know a

16:05narrative that would be attractive to

16:08make them excited about this because

16:10there's a huge amount of benefits and we

16:12can make it easy for you to articulate

16:13to that to them.

16:15>> I I think a oneep one page narrative

16:17would be really good. What were you

16:19going to say?

16:19>> Couple questions. um both both the

16:22wastewater treatment facility and the um

16:28development that we're talking about is

16:29within my wood and the wastewater

16:33treatment plant is about a mile away

16:35from from Country Village and it took

16:41like I don't know 40 years to finalize

16:45Route 20 and get it to a to a position

16:48where it is

16:51able to go without going 20 miles an

16:54hour between potholes. Uh it's a great

16:57road right now and I can't see my

17:00constituents being too excited about

17:02digging up Route 20 to put in a pipe for

17:04Country Village. That's not going to go

17:07over well.

17:08>> The pipe is already there and goes

17:10through the front of the property so we

17:12can tap it within the property of

17:13Country Village.

17:14>> So there's no digging. No, the dig is on

17:16their property,

17:18>> not on the street. Okay.

17:20>> It would it would depend exactly where

17:21the sewer interceptor is, but if

17:23assuming it goes to the side of the road

17:25or uh you know that that's where the dig

17:29would be, but we'd have to learn more of

17:30where and potentially we know

17:32>> Ted

17:33>> sewer interceptor in that location is

17:36off the road.

17:37>> Is that where the grinder is?

17:38>> It's in an easement. I assume it's in an

17:40easement. We'll find

17:41>> Is that Is that where the grinder is or

17:42is the grinder further uphill? What's

17:44that?

17:45>> It used to

17:46>> The grinder I mean there was this whole

17:47thing about the grinder that went on a

17:50>> the pump station.

17:51>> The pump station

17:52>> further west.

17:53>> Further west. It's f It is further west

17:55than that. Okay. Thank you for that.

17:56Appreciate that. Um

18:00so

18:02okay.

18:05So basically

18:07some Okay. The question I have basically

18:10who reaches out to the land owner?

18:12Should I be the one? Should you guys

18:14like does you know

18:18>> happy to do whatever you think is better

18:20>> potentially both of us.

18:22>> Yeah.

18:23>> You know all three of us to be maybe.

18:25>> Yeah. Okay. Uh

18:27>> might make sense just to have like a

18:29dedicated meeting to think that through

18:32and you know be really you know

18:35thoughtful and nuanced about it.

18:38>> Yeah.

18:38>> So

18:39>> yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, part of that

18:43is to figure out if if this is something

18:46we can start rolling today would be

18:49good. Yes, Ted, were you

18:52>> were you going to comment or you just

18:54trying to turn the mic up?

18:54>> We don't have to be right on top of the

18:56mic and pick up.

18:58>> Yeah.

19:00>> Yes, sir.

19:00>> I have I have another concern. Um, the

19:03buildings there are

19:0650 60 years old. I suspect they don't

19:09have a whole lot of infrastructure that

19:11you can put new piping in uh to each of

19:14their, you know, different apartments.

19:19>> That would all be within the property

19:20itself. And

19:21>> within That's right. But I mean, that's

19:22still part of the project.

19:23>> That is still part of the project. Yep.

19:25And also basically I I actually know

19:28people who live in those projects or

19:29have lived in those projects. And the

19:31heating system is basically your classic

19:35um electric uh baseboard heat type

19:38thing, central heat like that. It's, you

19:40know, people spending 5 to 800 bucks

19:43heating a one room, onebedroom

19:45apartment.

19:47So I think the opportunity here is huge

19:49for us to do it.

19:50>> Yeah. It depends on what kind of heating

19:52system they have.

19:53>> I'm sorry, what?

19:54>> It depends on what kind of heating

19:56[laughter] system they have.

19:58>> Yeah.

19:58>> Um

19:59>> Yeah. And that that will you know but we

20:01we can find out.

20:02>> Yeah. That's all electric heat. What I

20:04understand it's all electric heat like

20:06>> Yeah. And this this would radically

20:07lower their energy bills in comp their

20:10electric bills in comparison then if

20:11it's if it is electric baseboard.

20:14>> Mhm.

20:15>> Can I ask a question? So

20:16>> sure.

20:18>> The [clears throat] first step would be

20:19to get the grant I assume. So what are

20:21feasibility studies cost normally and

20:25how much is the grant? We we can uh

20:27we've been told by uh the the

20:30feasibility study is for $15,000 and

20:33we've been told that you can probably

20:34get something pretty close to that. Uh

20:37you know that that that's might be the

20:39right price. There might be a little bit

20:40more. We could figure it out. Um and the

20:43second part is uh for design and that's

20:46for up to $100,000.

20:48Um and again don't you know it depends

20:51what you're designing how much it costs.

20:53And then the third part is for up to

20:55$750,000 for the installation. And

20:57Karen, I got that right. Right.

20:59>> Yes, you did.

20:59>> Okay, good.

21:01>> I noticed some feasibil when I think

21:04feasibility study, one feasibility study

21:06I saw didn't have anything about money.

21:09>> Are we talking feasibility studies that

21:11talk about money?

21:13>> Uh, I'm assuming you could uh you could

21:15decide what you can get for $15,000. I'm

21:17assuming it does not have to do with the

21:19the economics of it, but more is it

21:22technically feasible to get it done to

21:25get enough to get get enough energy to

21:27make it worthwhile for you.

21:30>> I mean, the one thing I've

21:31>> So my only point would be it's a

21:33feasibility study. If you're going to

21:35design, you got to know what it's to be

21:37feasible. Is it going to be cost

21:38effective?

21:39>> Yes.

21:40>> So otherwise, you don't go to the

21:41design. You don't spend money on the

21:43design. So

21:44>> Right.

21:44>> Right. And that uh always depends on how

21:46much you pay for it and uh at what sort

21:49of uh cost of capital and who's where

21:52the revenue is coming from. And so I

21:54think that that would be one of the

21:55things that we can help with. We've got

21:56a variety of experts that will will

21:59assist including the the exhead of the

22:01department of public utilities in

22:03Massachusetts and uh the the guy who

22:06installed the thermal network in

22:08Framingham for Eversource um as well as

22:11the center for public enterprise who are

22:13looking into the economics. But it would

22:14be you all to make your decisions about

22:17what would be most attractive to you.

22:21>> So I have a question and I've I've

22:23looked around and maybe around the world

22:26they've had them. Where where close to

22:28us did they actually tap into a sewer

22:31main?

22:34>> Um so they're doing an installation in

22:37uh sir

22:39>> well they they have one in Washington DC

22:41at DC water. Uh that's uh there's also

22:44they're doing an installation in

22:46Syracuse using the county's wastewater

22:49treatment plant there

22:50>> and it's not not installed yet.

22:52>> Yes, they will be doing it um

22:54>> at the plant or in a in a pipe.

22:56>> They're they're taking the as I

22:58understand it the effluent o out of the

23:00plant afterward and taking it to a

23:03separate pump house that they'll build

23:04and then have a heat exchanger there to

23:07transmit just the heat to the to the

23:09clean water that goes around the

23:11neighborhood. in Vancouver.

23:13>> Yeah.

23:15>> Yep.

23:15>> Not near us.

23:16>> Y

23:18in Massachusetts yet?

23:20>> Thank you, Mr. Chair.

23:21>> Hold on.

23:21>> Not that I know of at the moment. I

23:23can't think of any.

23:24>> Go ahead.

23:24>> The I like I like to think long term as

23:28best I can. Meaning as a city what you

23:31know if this is a direction that we want

23:34to go in what capa what percentage of a

23:38capacity coming out of the sewage is

23:40going to go to this project and allow us

23:43to use other products because if it's as

23:45good as everyone seems to think it is

23:47then there'll be other people who will

23:48say hey I want cheap energy too and I

23:52you know and I'd rather before we do any

23:55it's figure out you know what's phase

23:56one in Marbor what's phase two in

23:58Marorrow what's so forth and so on. Are

24:00we going to tap into the skating rinks?

24:01We got to kind of get to an entire

24:05municipality plan for this and not just

24:08do project to project in my opinion.

24:11>> So I hold on Trey, you had your hands up

24:15too, so I'm going to get it back to you.

24:17>> Yeah, I mean I please councelor Vital if

24:20you'd like to answer his question first

24:21that's fine. I'm also happy to jump in.

24:23It's a little off the beaten path from

24:24where he was going. it was more in terms

24:25of some of the existing projects that

24:27have already happened and just some

24:28questions I have around those um just to

24:31see kind of how feasible it is what

24:33we're doing obviously we're going to you

24:35know ideally have a feasibility study

24:37but I know I have some concerns about

24:38the Syracuse project and then the ones

24:40in Massachusetts that are not full

24:41thermal energy network systems but

24:43rather um district energy or geothermal

24:46networks right so ju just some

24:48clarifying questions there but um I I

24:51defer to you Mr. share how we'd want

24:54>> um I so one of the conversations we had

24:57at the beginning of this is like you

25:00know Malboro is is

25:03a dense but small city but not super

25:05dense I mean total population around

25:0745,000

25:09I think we're about 7 square milesish

25:12or something how much

25:15>> 25 square miles more than I thought okay

25:18um in any case we can't you know one

25:21option is like try in one place and grow

25:25or figure out where there are

25:28opportunities within the city and

25:30leverage those independently. This being

25:33one of them. Um and then we may find

25:37some other ones, you know, um either,

25:40you know, on Forest Street or whatever,

25:44um of businesses that want to take

25:46advantage of this. And the the business

25:48model

25:50to implement this is going to be very

25:52similar where and it's also very similar

25:55to like solar panels today, right?

25:57um you know there was someone that has

26:00interest they negotiate eventually

26:02there's a project plan of what what

26:06someone wants to get done either it's

26:08done through us it's done through the

26:10land owner whatever right um we work

26:13with them if it's a thermal exchange

26:18through wastewater that's one scenario

26:21we can do a thermal exchange for heating

26:23from Fort Meadow freeze the lakes faster

26:27during the winter. Um or we could do

26:30geothermal wells and march with those

26:33and just keep on drilling to our heart's

26:35content because that you know that there

26:37there could be thousands of wells driven

26:40drilled within Malber over decades you

26:42know um but the model still becomes

26:45effectively the same. You have the land

26:47owner who makes the investment to

26:50utilize the resources of his land to

26:53capture some degree thermal energy in

26:55his property. He then sells it to the

26:58utility which is the municipal utility.

27:00We we're the middleman. Then the utility

27:03sells it to the end users, the tenants

27:06or the property owners and other

27:08properties. So this may you know in this

27:12may become a scattered for first

27:14generation where we got maybe over time

27:18a couple of different projects going on

27:20within the city and then it just grows

27:23from there and expands. Um, most of the

27:26ones I've seen, the projects that are

27:28getting done, no one's really thinking

27:30about expansion, which I consider to be

27:32the biggest issue because you got to you

27:34got to figure out how to fund the

27:36project, but also fund expansion. But

27:39that that becomes more of an operations

27:41instead of a project related issue.

27:44>> So, does that make it any clearer or I'm

27:47not sold on it yet. For example, we have

27:50a great open space plan that we have. I

27:53see this being a part of that. So we so

27:55we say, "Okay, South Street, if that's

27:58going to be houses, we're going to talk

27:59to the developer because it's going to

28:01be a lot more cost effective if we do it

28:04before the the buildings are up." A lot

28:07more cost effective.

28:08>> Oh, absolutely.

28:08>> So, if we look at some of the areas that

28:11developers like we're going to get more,

28:13at least I believe we're going to get

28:14more housing down on Donald Lynch

28:16Boulevard.

28:17>> Mhm.

28:18>> That's going to happen. whether it's in

28:19the mall, whether it's, you know,

28:20somewhere along Donald Lynch Boulevard,

28:22somewhere else, but that would be

28:24another great opportunity for the

28:26skating rink idea,

28:28>> right?

28:28>> So, I just see

28:31this being more should be more strategic

28:33and not just saying, "Hey, let's go do

28:35this because we have it's a mile from

28:38the the sewage plant and

28:40>> Oh, it's it's not a mile from the sewer

28:42plant. It is a couple of feet from a

28:4430-in sewer man." And that's what the

28:47whole thing is about. That main goes

28:49farther up.

28:50>> Oh, true. But we just have to,

28:51>> right? So,

28:52>> no, the main that main is the sewer

28:54birth that goes up to Phelps.

28:57>> You're not seeing my my point here. I

28:59know you're getting excited about this

29:00project. And I and I'm excited about the

29:02project, too. Yeah.

29:03>> I just would rather slow it not even

29:05slow it down, but just say, "Okay,

29:08>> what are some other opportunities that

29:09we long-term want to look at

29:12>> here within the city?"

29:14>> Is South Street one? Is Donald Lynch

29:16Boulevard one? Yeah. you know, other

29:18other developments that we see down the

29:20road somewhere. You know, we

29:22>> if this is such a cost effective model,

29:25then I would think that developers would

29:27be jumping jumping over hurdles to get

29:29to it.

29:30>> I think that we should be um working

29:35with future, you know, with businesses

29:37that are planning to move in the city.

29:39they should be aware of what we're

29:40trying to do here and ask them to get

29:42more involved in it because there's a

29:44lot of businesses that are interested in

29:46trying to basically get greener for many

29:49reasons.

29:50>> You know, that's why there's, you know,

29:52you have a uh chief sustainability

29:55officer for many businesses now because

29:57they're looking at sustainability of the

29:59business overall.

30:00>> And you know, I think that,

30:04[clears throat]

30:04>> you know,

30:06>> I don't I don't want to be a a fly in

30:07the ointment here. No, no, no.

30:08>> I want to get I want to get a

30:09feasibility study. I want to get us

30:11looking at this as an alternative,

30:14>> right?

30:15>> I just want to make sure like again back

30:17to my point if if we're how much of the

30:20capacity from that treatment plant is

30:22going to be used for this project.

30:23>> I think

30:24>> there going to be other projects that

30:26we'll be able to do,

30:27>> right?

30:27>> So it's every 1 million gallons per day

30:30of waste water, you can get basically

30:33enough heat and heating and cooling for

30:36a 100 homes. So if you have sorry

30:40>> uh if you take three degrees of

30:42temperature off that wastewater as it

30:43goes by and so

30:45>> how many homes

30:46>> 100 homes 1 million gallons per day on

30:49average not not max flow but the average

30:53uh and you take three degrees of

30:55temperature off you have enough

30:56temperature to heat and cool 100 homes.

30:58So if you have 20 million gallons you

31:00got enough for 2,000 homes. uh and I

31:03don't remember what the your wastewater

31:06treatment plant flow is, but you can use

31:08that as a basic concept. And then uh I

31:12would not forget the ice rinks also,

31:14>> which you've got just free uh shed heat

31:18that you could use uh constantly.

31:22Um, it's a so I would just I'm I'm

31:25really happy to go around and look look

31:27around the municipality and suggest

31:29other possibilities, but I don't want to

31:32have you bite off more than you want to

31:33chew at this moment

31:34>> or or or overstep in any way. We're

31:37happy to help in whatever ways you think

31:39is helpful.

31:40>> Right. Yes. So I just say if we're

31:42looking at the if they feel like this is

31:44the best look at the wastewater plus the

31:47disadvantaged place I think the first

31:50step is let's get information what

31:52information do they need from us

31:54>> okay

31:55>> I would assume it's not a constant flow

31:57so

31:57>> right

31:58>> so what type of information you need we

32:00want more information on what the tap

32:02looks like is it a is it a wet tap

32:05where's the tap in the pipe

32:06>> right thermal exchange

32:08>> all things like that how how does that

32:10work and and things like that. Go for

32:13the grant. See if you get the grant. See

32:15how much the feasibility study says.

32:17What does the feasibility study say? I

32:19think that's where we are right now. So,

32:21>> okay.

32:22>> Seems

32:23okay. I I add um to your point,

32:27councelor Vatel, that I I think it's

32:29great that you're sorry that you're

32:31looking at the big picture and what what

32:33it sounds like to me is you're saying in

32:36terms of the whole town, where are the

32:38various thermal assets and how can we,

32:41you know, look at this 101 15 years in

32:43advance and sort of have a big strategic

32:45plan. I I think that's a great just

32:48generally great planning. Well, I see

32:50this as as a a carrot for future

32:53development, right? They're taking this

32:56advantage. Now, we have other folks that

32:58may want to purchase land on Donald

33:00Lynch Boulevard that may not have wanted

33:02to do it originally,

33:03>> right?

33:03>> You know, those types of things.

33:04>> There are loads of examples, very good

33:06examples of new developments with

33:08thermal energy networks that we could

33:10help you, you know, we could provide you

33:12with all this.

33:12>> And the closest one is Framingham,

33:14right? Well, that Well, I'll let Andrea

33:16that's that's not uh Framingham is Yeah,

33:19it was building retrofits and they're

33:20doing a second installation that a

33:22second loop that's being added onto

33:24Framingham. So, they're already

33:25expanding there. Um but there are other

33:28new developments that do this like

33:30Whisper Valley in Texas or uh Markham

33:33which is just outside of Toronto. Uh you

33:37know, so you've got two extreme

33:38temperature

33:40>> sites where it works really well.

33:42Mark, are you going to say something?

33:44>> Yes, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Um, I've been

33:46looking over the grant proposal and it

33:49looks like they'll give you for a

33:51technical assistance grant, as you

33:53noted, 15,000. Uh, and then after that,

33:56we'll wait for that. I think that's

33:58important to do the feasibility study or

34:00the technical assistance grant study.

34:02Uh, then it looks like they go up to a

34:04100,000 for a pilot program. Correct me

34:07if I'm wrong.

34:08>> I think it's a design

34:09>> design a pilot design. And then after

34:12that, I read that they will offer and I

34:15see this is just there's a $5 million

34:18amount available at within this grant,

34:20but $750,000

34:22for construction is what I see in this

34:25notice from the state. I just forward it

34:27to you. Um, Mr. Chair,

34:29>> thank you. I appreciate that.

34:30>> With that said, do you know how many

34:33communities in Massachusetts may be

34:35interested in absorbing this $5 million?

34:38cuz you know if we take a million from

34:39it there won't be much left for others

34:41>> right so I assume it's about five

34:43installations that will come out of this

34:46and uh we are currently working with

34:49Boston Housing Authority to you know

34:51take a look as well as with South Hadley

34:53and I assume there will be many other

34:56sites so it's good to come in with a

34:58really good proposal and one that us

35:00that uh serves underserved communities

35:04because that's what it says it's

35:05particularly interested in

35:06>> and I understand why you're considering

35:09the housing down on um East Main, not

35:12East Maine, Route 20 East.

35:13>> Route 20. Yeah.

35:14>> Yeah. Uh with that said, it sounds like,

35:17you know, this is one of maybe many

35:19projects down the line if someone sees

35:21it working and working well. Um it was

35:25mentioned the new housing going in. You

35:27know, this could be like the jump start

35:30to going to other locations. And I just

35:33don't know how much it seems like

35:37whatever energy they take from the

35:39wastewater will that affect our will it

35:41lower the wastewater temperature by the

35:43time it gets to the plant that's my

35:45concern.

35:46>> So uh I think it has a while to go

35:48through the ground after that before it

35:50gets to the wastewater treatment plant.

35:52So by then it will probably have picked

35:54up those three degrees or lost those

35:57three degrees whichever

35:58>> you know it'll equalize

36:00>> to what it was before. Boy, what a way

36:02to harness energy then, you know.

36:04>> Yeah, it's it's waste energy in the

36:07waste water.

36:08>> I wanted to make sure it didn't affect

36:10the plants. That's all. You know,

36:12>> um I would just add to your earlier

36:13point about the limited amount of grant

36:16funding and the fact that it's rolling

36:17admissions that, you know, if you this

36:21is a rare opportunity to have almost a

36:23million dollars of state aid for

36:24something like this. So, if you want to

36:26just focus on getting that feasibility

36:29study in and then you'll get a lot of

36:30information that will help you decide

36:32what you want to do going forward. I

36:34mean, it's you just saw the grant. It's

36:36not that heavy lifting. I mean, it's

36:38going to take time. Everything takes

36:39some time and you have other priorities

36:40perhaps, but um it just seems like if

36:44you want to get your hat in the ring on

36:45the earlier side of this and get some

36:47information, this would be some very

36:48nice amount of money for Marlo to to

36:51move forward.

36:52>> Well, and it's interesting with if I

36:53may, Mr. J just one more comment within

36:56the grant information they do state the

36:58word they do suggest matching funds for

37:02the 150,000 and for the 750

37:06it may be helpful you know the way it's

37:09worded is interesting so but again we'll

37:12take a look at the feasib I would hope

37:14we go to at least the technical

37:15assistance study the feasibility study

37:18and then we'll see where we can go from

37:21there and what kind of funds might be

37:23needed if the state is looking for

37:24matching grant money. If not, may they

37:28didn't say you had to. When you read it,

37:30you'll see it's very interesting the way

37:32they worded it. So, if it maybe for the

37:34first project, if they're going to give

37:36us the entire amount without matching

37:38grants, that would be fantastic. But I

37:40have a feeling if you're a business or

37:42someone, they would probably be looking

37:44for that. But we'll see where it goes.

37:46But I was very interested in what the

37:48state d the mass D has put out on this.

37:50So

37:51>> I mean some some projects are going to

37:53be modest in scope and won't really need

37:55much more than the actual amount of the

37:58grant for the design but if you have you

38:00know a substantial project that's where

38:01they're probably talking about what are

38:03you planning to get for

38:04>> so starting small may be the way to go

38:07it sounds like if you are not interested

38:09in matching the the uh grant money but

38:12but thank you and I appreciate all your

38:14assistance as well the chair

38:16>> thank you I just want to say one thing

38:17before I go to you Trey um I this I saw

38:21this when you sent the information about

38:23it is like this is a um this is a

38:27microcosm that shows the opportunities

38:30and issues that get confronted when

38:32we're trying to do this because it just

38:34so happens that the landowner and the

38:36tenant are on the same property. So

38:38there's there's nothing going in and

38:40out. you know, we want to be the broker

38:43in the transaction for, you know,

38:46basically the landowner sells the

38:49thermal heat to us and the, you know,

38:51the tenants buy it from us and we're in

38:53the middle doing the transaction,

38:54keeping everything honest. Um, and you

38:58know, [clears throat] the you know,

39:01having the opportunity for the state to

39:02cover a big chunk of this in cost for um

39:07is one of the reasons why I went, "Oh,

39:09this is great." you know, we can go

39:11forward with this as an example, a

39:13demonstration, and also get into I think

39:16this may get into conversations with

39:18other land owners in the city like what

39:21um you know, if we're doing this other

39:23you know, I want me some of that too

39:25because at the end of the day, what

39:28we're proposing here is the second

39:29revenue stream for land owners and their

39:32tenants or maybe their tenants or maybe

39:36someone else, you know. So, but actually

39:39Trey goes next. Yes, sir.

39:41>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I I do have a

39:43couple of questions, so bear with me.

39:44And it's kind of in relation to this

39:45whole conversation. I want to start

39:47first going back to the grant funding,

39:49this 15K grant. And I think Commissioner

39:51Scott, you would hit the nail on the

39:52head of trying to give us direction as

39:54to as to what needs to happen next. That

39:56grant funding can only go towards

39:58wastewater and waste heat projects,

40:01correct? Okay. So I guess to me that

40:03that indicates that you know the next

40:05steps here would be for this body to

40:08right the city obviously needs more

40:10information to work with black swan labs

40:12to see what exactly is it needs to

40:14happen um you know then the grant is

40:16applied for if we get it we put together

40:18a feasibility study that is within the

40:2115k restraint right we don't want to be

40:24going beyond that I I don't know how

40:26feasible it is to have a feasibility

40:27study at $15,000 for something like this

40:29so that that's kind of my first like

40:31just kind of figuring out where where

40:33are we going from here because I I'm

40:34enjoying the conversation about

40:35Countryside Village and some of these

40:37other places, but I'm struggling to find

40:39where funding's coming from, right? That

40:41the tiff would imply we're creating

40:44jobs. That that that's not happening. I

40:45don't see how the city could finance a

40:47tiff for something, you know, geothermal

40:49at Countryside Village. I'm I'm

40:51struggling with some of these other

40:52projects as well, just in terms of

40:54Donald Lynch Boulevard and with the

40:56highway over there in 290, right? How

40:58are we going to be operating with the

41:00state? So I I just I want to have some

41:02focus on what what monies are available

41:04and what can we do given given the

41:06future. So long-winded way of asking it

41:08sounds like the grant funding really

41:10should be for a wastewater treatment

41:12plant like a wastewater or waste heat

41:15you know feasibility study

41:16>> and uh the D grant is only for

41:18wastewater.

41:19>> Okay. Okay. And then just kind of

41:21piggybacking off from that I guess my my

41:24next question is the city's role. I feel

41:26like I've heard a couple different

41:27moving parts, but the idea that I keep

41:30hearing is the land owner sells to the

41:32utility and we are the utility in this

41:34case and then we sell to the tenants. I

41:38I guess I'm struggling to see anywhere

41:39else that that's happening. I mean, it's

41:41not not happening in Massachusetts,

41:42that's for sure. It's either colleges or

41:44universities or a utility company,

41:46National Grid or Eversource, right? The

41:48Framingham is Eversource. Even the

41:50Boston Housing Authority, it's the

41:52Boston Housing Authority is not in

41:53control of that. It seems like it's

41:54National Grid who's doing that. So, I

41:56guess my my question then becomes what

41:58what is the city's role in any of those

42:00cases and what would it be in ours?

42:02>> Um

42:02>> I know it's it's a a bit couple moving

42:05parts.

42:05>> So, it's it's a little bit of the wild

42:06west.

42:07>> Sure.

42:07>> And there's a lot of different models

42:09out there. The Syracuse in and can you

42:12all hear me if I face this way?

42:14>> Move the mic closer.

42:15>> Yeah. Feel it's okay here.

42:17>> Okay. Um the the uh Syracuse model is

42:22one that might be most close to it.

42:24National grid is the dist owns the

42:26distribution system and the county owns

42:29the wastewater treatment plant. Uh and

42:32there would be an exchange of funds for

42:33that energy for that thermal energy. Um

42:37there's there was also a model in Troy,

42:39New York where the city was going to own

42:41the uh the bore holes and sell the

42:45thermal energy to national grid. So,

42:47those are those are some models. There

42:49are some municipalities out there. West

42:51Union, Iowa, uh wait, uh Boise, Ind, you

42:55know, Idaho, Idaho,

42:58>> Idaho. There we go. Uh I can get my

42:59states right. Um where they do have

43:02geothermal utilities uh that are run by

43:05the municipality or by a company for the

43:08municipality. So, those those and Ann

43:12Arbor is about to install one too. So

43:15there are methods like that too. You you

43:18should go through and figure out what

43:20you want as a as a city,

43:22>> right? So we shouldn't, you know, kind

43:24of I guess the the reason why I ask is

43:26just it seems like the conversation is

43:27really predicated on the fact that the

43:28city is the the utility in some way. Um

43:31right, but that doesn't necessarily have

43:33to be the avenue in which we go. That's

43:35the clarification.

43:36>> Can I just add one thing? Um, councelor

43:39Desai, you you are often saying the land

43:41land owner sells, but in a in a in a

43:44sewer related system, the city is the

43:47sewer. The city has the temperature.

43:49There's no land owner involved in that

43:51system per se. The the city owns the

43:53sewer. The city is selling the temp the

43:55thermal energy directly basically to

43:59whoever's distributing it to the

44:01building. So in in the case of in the

44:04case that Audrey was describing in

44:06Syracuse, they're selling it to National

44:07Grid and National Grid has a

44:09distribution system. Um if it's all

44:11within the city, it never goes to a land

44:13owner. Now the bore hole question is a

44:15different different

44:16>> question. So so the way I thought about

44:17is at least this the waste water um

44:21thermal systems um someone pays to build

44:26that system and I'm assuming the land

44:29land owner would in the case of the

44:31projects not the city um and if the land

44:34owner pays to build the system then he

44:38gets the revenue from the system.

44:41I I would assume that I mean and I I

44:44think this is something that is an

44:45interesting question. I would assume if

44:46the city owns the sewer and uh provides

44:49the thermal energy then uh the

44:54uh city would get revenue from that and

44:57I don't know if the city would prefer to

45:00have the landowner pay for the

45:03technology and you know to take that

45:06temperature or not. I would think the

45:07city would want to have that that

45:09technology because it would be affecting

45:10their system

45:12>> and they would want control over it, but

45:14I I do not know.

45:15>> Right. So, you know, there's got to be

45:17something there for the land owners to

45:20basically um benefit from, you know,

45:24benefit financially from the situation.

45:27And also um if the land owner pays for

45:30the system and they're a for-profit

45:33corporation then they can take all the

45:35tax deductions that they can where the

45:38city cannot you know so I I think the

45:41you know when it either with wastewater

45:45heat or geothermal wells property owner

45:50pays for the systems and at the end of

45:53the day the you know the wells are owned

45:54by the city and at the end of the

45:57the, you know, the the wastewater is

46:00also owned by the city, but in both

46:03cases, the land owner makes money

46:04because they're the ones that put

46:06together the system to extract the re

46:08the energy. I

46:10>> I think you could do it in many, many

46:12different ways. And you might think of

46:13it as somewhat similar to the electric

46:15system that there's the distribution

46:17system, who does the generation, and

46:19then the consumer. Mhm.

46:21>> And so if the city owned the wastewater,

46:24it would be akin to owning the battery.

46:27It it could install the distribution

46:30system and sell to the customers and

46:33then take that revenue too. Or, you

46:36know, or it could be that uh in a lot of

46:41the installations across the country so

46:43far, the the bore holes when bore holes

46:45are used instead of wastewater are in

46:47parking lots owned by the state or

46:51municipality.

46:52>> Yeah.

46:52>> And so maybe under those circumstances

46:55again, the city has the battery, right,

46:57or the solar panels and then is selling

47:01into, you know, it this could be pared

47:03in a thousand ways. It depends on what

47:04the city wants.

47:05>> I'm not I'm not

47:07I'm not saying that this way the way I'm

47:09proposing is the exclusive way that it's

47:11going to get done.

47:12>> But I think that the the landlord,

47:17you know, if if we can have the landlord

47:20pay for much of the system as possible

47:23and then basically give him he gets the

47:25incentives, the feds incentives, the

47:28state incentives. you know, we can if we

47:30can provide city incentives, if the tips

47:32don't work, the tips don't work. Um, or

47:34at least figure that out. Um, but at the

47:38uh,

47:39you know, the landlord basically

47:44run owns the systems be, you know, and

47:48therefore they get value from that from

47:50owning the systems. Whether or not

47:52wastewater heat is marked at the same

47:55price point as, you know, geothermal

47:58wells, you know, bore holes, I don't

48:00think so because, you know, again, it's

48:03like, you know, they're they're

48:04extracting heat from our water. So, it

48:06shouldn't be as much as a geothermal

48:08well, but there should be some

48:09compensation, you know, because they

48:11built the system. You know, I I could be

48:13wrong, but it could be that the

48:16underlying concern for which that might

48:19be a solution is how do we pay for this?

48:21>> And you're thinking, well, if if the

48:24town can't afford to or doesn't want to

48:26pay for it, we want someone else to be

48:28able to pay for it, like the landlord

48:29idea. So, one thing just to consider is

48:32um as Audre has mentioned, we we are

48:34working with some super duper good

48:37experts on sort of different modular

48:40ownership models, different financing

48:41models. So, I think the question of how

48:44do we pay for it is a really important

48:45one and and keeping an open mind about

48:47the variety of ways that best suits you

48:52>> and evaluating them all would probably

48:53be just a good exercise when we get to

48:56that when you get to that point after

48:57the feasibility study. And we're happy

48:59to have a good strong sitdown meeting

49:02with our our key people on that.

49:04>> And and will the feasibility study

49:06provide sort of those different options

49:08so that they would look at that stuff?

49:10>> It won't be financial, it'll be

49:11technical.

49:12>> So the feasibility study will just say

49:15>> is this feasible tech, you know, in in

49:18the in the way, but then then that next

49:21step would be figuring out a model that

49:23>> Exactly. Yes.

49:24>> Okay.

49:26>> Okay.

49:28Okay. Anything else?

49:30>> I just have a I have a curious question.

49:32>> Trey, I saw Trey's hand first. Sorry.

49:34Trey,

49:35>> thank you, Mr. Chair. I um just real

49:38quick, I guess my my [clears throat]

49:39major concern here is that I look at

49:42like the the Boston Housing Authority

49:43Franklin Field Project. I look at the

49:45Framingham project. Seems as though like

49:47the the municipality or at least

49:49Eversource and National Grid came into

49:51this with a very specific vision of what

49:52they wanted to do, right? in Framingham

49:54it was they wanted geothermal um to

49:56actually dig bore holes and and try a

49:59little pilot program. Seems like with um

50:01Boston Housing Authority they had aging

50:03gas boiler system in pre-existing

50:05buildings that they had identified. I'm

50:07worried that we're a little a lot of

50:10moving parts here, right? Like we're not

50:12we're not looking at one specific thing

50:14as a group. Um, and I understand that

50:16it's it's hard to, right? There's a lot

50:18of things going on. But I guess because

50:19of that, I'm I'm concerned about putting

50:23funds one place or another when we

50:25really don't know what direction we want

50:26to be going in. So, I guess my question

50:28is for Black Swan Labs. Is there a way

50:30in which you folks apply for this grant

50:33and kind of tell us, you know, hey, we

50:36we did a feasibility on, for example,

50:38the right the grant funding for the um

50:40the wastewater and waste heat and then

50:42come back and say this this is what the

50:44report says, this is what it is. You

50:46know, you guys take with that what you

50:47will or is that not kind of part of this

50:49program?

50:50>> We're we're not eligible to apply. You

50:51have to be a municipal basically a DPW

50:54or a water treatment plan or something

50:56like that. Those are the only folks who

50:58are eligible for

50:59>> we would have happily done that for you

51:01if we [laughter] could have. Sure.

51:02>> And I will say that I worked uh so we

51:06brought this idea when I was at heat a

51:08different nonprofit. We brought this

51:11concept to national grid and average got

51:13them to agree then we found all the

51:15sites for them

51:17>> and it wasn't like the sites were you

51:19know knew that they wanted bore holes uh

51:22they just wanted to you know go towards

51:25clean energy.

51:26>> Sure. But they came to that through you

51:28folks in some way, right? Outside of

51:30grant funding and feasibility, but they

51:31worked in partnership with you. I'm

51:33assuming some kind of agreement between

51:35the utility company and and Black Swan

51:37Labs. I guess I I don't know. My my

51:40trying to figure out where where do we

51:42go from here is really what I'm trying

51:43to figure out.

51:44>> Any you know just I suggest exploring

51:47the different options until you find

51:48options that make you happy.

51:51>> Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

51:52>> Okay. I just not so bad.

51:54>> This is more towards Ted. Um we're we're

51:57in a unique I'm always looking to make

51:59money rather than spend money. Um we

52:03accept waste water from the town of

52:05North and we treat it in our west

52:08facility. Can we send can we sell back

52:11their waste water for a thermal project

52:13in North?

52:18>> Okay. Well, we do charge them for for

52:21the service, but you could there's all

52:23kinds of possibilities. I mean, but what

52:26is it practical?

52:27>> How do you how do you how do you get the

52:30thermal energy to them in the street or

52:32anything?

52:33>> I think that

52:33>> I think I think the best thing to do is

52:36they made a proposal on wastewater.

52:38There's grant money there. Use the grant

52:41money. This is a case where you're right

52:44you're right on top of it. You're not

52:46transmitting everywhere. So have them uh

52:49help us with the with the grant and then

52:53take it from there and see where it

52:54goes.

52:55>> Okay. So I thank you, Ted. I appreciate

52:59that. Um I mean I I think that

53:05a grant for this small piece as a

53:08demonstration I think is critical

53:10because it shows viability even if we

53:13you know depending how far down we go.

53:15Um, so I I think that there is an

53:17opportunity here and would you for here

53:21be interested in working offline and

53:24getting the first draft of the grant in

53:27place for the study, you know, basically

53:32for the Boston Post Road East project.

53:35>> I think that would be great. I would

53:36suggest also talking to the people the

53:39uh building owner to make sure to get

53:41some information on the building.

53:43>> Yeah.

53:44>> Yes. make sure they're interested.

53:46>> President O, what were you going to say?

53:47>> So, I am very concerned about committing

53:51city resources when we really don't know

53:53what we want yet. I I believe the

53:57mayor's not on board. Ted and Priscilla

54:00are being kind. I I don't I I I am

54:03concerned of using their time and

54:05resources for something that's not well

54:07defined. So, you tap into the the

54:09wastewater system. The planning boards

54:12put it perfectly. What guarantees

54:15someone's going to use it? I'm gonna get

54:16rid of my fossil fuel supply system and

54:19use geothermal

54:21way. We are so far in the infancy part

54:23of this that committing resources from

54:26my perspective is really premature. your

54:30I think your your focus would be better

54:32to get national grid to try to develop a

54:34pilot program here in Malro versus

54:38trying to say we're going to set it up

54:40here cuz I'll tell I'm not going to

54:42support city resources going after this

54:44when it's not well defined. We've had

54:47two meetings for two hours and we're

54:49going to commit a whole bunch of city

54:51funds. He's not going to approve it. All

54:54right. I I I I appreciate what you're

54:56doing. I just think what you want to do

55:00and what the real benefits are are not

55:02well laid out. I hear a lot of if the

55:05land owner does this and if that ifs are

55:08great but that's that you're committing

55:10city resources and they're at a premium

55:13right now and I want you to be very

55:15careful what you're asking for because I

55:17don't think we're ready. This to me

55:19needs a lot more discussion. I'm not

55:21shutting it down, but I just think we're

55:24way too early in the process to say, you

55:27know, Ted, Priscilla, we're going to

55:28have you stop what you're doing and

55:30focus on geothermal.

55:32Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

55:35>> I'm not saying to drop what they're

55:37doing either. Um, but I think that in

55:41this case, you know, there's there's an

55:44opportunity here to do research and the

55:47feasibility study money is out there for

55:50us to take advantage of and Black Swan

55:53Labs is willing to write the feasibility

55:55study. So, they just need input from the

55:58city to actually get it done.

56:01So, uh, the mayor's here. Would you like

56:04like to comment at all?

56:11you remember how it works?

56:12>> I do remember. Yeah. Thank you, Mayor.

56:14>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, no, again, I I

56:18watched the first meeting and now being

56:20here at the second one, I I have a lot

56:23of questions and I think everyone in

56:25this room has a lot of questions as well

56:27and um they're not there yet. My concern

56:31is my job is to protect the city. And I

56:35think if we go out to this countryside

56:38village and start talking to them about

56:40it before we have any of these answers,

56:42it's not a good look for the city

56:44overall. Um they're going to have the

56:46same questions as we are. My first

56:48initial question is cost. Um we can talk

56:50all day about what this means in that

56:53regards, but there is no cost affiliated

56:55with that. Um, I think we're

56:56consistently putting the cart before the

56:58horse with this process and that's

57:00concerning to me as well. I wrote a

57:02support letter to Black Swan. I was

57:04happy to do that regarding what we can

57:07do for the next step. I think we're

57:09three steps ahead. Um, I would like to

57:11know what the feasibility study will

57:13consist of, what that what that means,

57:15and then take the next step before we we

57:17start reaching out to all these

57:18different individuals. um because I

57:21don't think it's the best look for this

57:22city when we don't have these answers um

57:25that they will have for their questions.

57:27Again, I'm totally on board with this.

57:29I'm here obviously because I want to

57:31support this project. Um I'm open to the

57:35project. I just don't have the answers

57:38to move forward the way that I want to

57:41and to utilize um the department heads I

57:44think is a little premature as of yet.

57:46I'd rather black swan do what they need

57:48to do to figure out what actually can be

57:50done and then have this committee come

57:53in and discuss the possibilities and

57:56utilizing their valuable insight to see

57:58what the next steps actually are and

58:00what actually is feasible from the

58:03feasible feasibility study. Um, again, I

58:07just don't

58:09know why we're meeting as of yet before

58:11the feasibility study and what that

58:13feasibility study could pertain.

58:19Well, I see the feasibility study

58:21contain whether or not it would make

58:23sense to do a project like this for this

58:26one in particular because the money is

58:27available for a specific type of project

58:32that you know would fit within this the

58:35scope of this overall project.

58:37>> But what does what is that project?

58:39We've talked about different scenarios

58:40between Donald Boulevard to the sport

58:42center.

58:43>> This one in particular is only for the

58:46um

58:47>> wastewater energy. So why aren't we

58:49focusing on that? You know, I think

58:51there's a lot of conversation about

58:53everything else but that within the last

58:56hour that we had. So I think that we

58:58just need to focus on that project and

59:00what that entails. What are the pros?

59:02What are the cons? How much is it going

59:03to cost? What are the possible costs to

59:05the city? What's the liability for this

59:06for the city? What's the liability for

59:08the treatment plant? Those are the

59:10questions that are not being addressed

59:12tonight. And I think that's where the

59:14concrete needs to happen so we can where

59:17the rubber hits the road. Um, again,

59:19that's just my take. I don't feel

59:21comfortable moving forward unless those

59:23we have an idea of where those answers

59:25are coming from.

59:27>> So, I believe, and I'm sorry if it's

59:29been confusing, most of the time we've

59:31been talking only about the feasibility

59:33study for the wastewater energy recovery

59:35at that site, or at least that's what I

59:36would thought we were talking about.

59:38There is the possibility of many other

59:40sites and further possibil

59:43possibilities, but my recommendation is

59:45you look first at the grant which is

59:48free and takes just a little time to to

59:52you know file for to find out if it's

59:54technically feasible and that along the

59:57way you talk to the owners of the

59:59building to make sure they're

1:00:00interested. Uh and I'm happy to do that

1:00:03and we can do it separate from the city

1:00:05if that makes it better. But many

1:00:08housing authorities, low-income housing

1:00:09authorities have mandates that they have

1:00:11to do this and especially if it would

1:00:13save them money and their uh their

1:00:16residents money, they're very

1:00:17interested. And so this might be

1:00:19something that helps the low-income

1:00:21housing [clears throat]

1:00:22uh authority. At the same time, you try

1:00:26out the system and begin to figure out

1:00:29what models might work for the city, if

1:00:31any, for further expansion of other

1:00:34possible thermal networks if you want.

1:00:36It's just it's a way of stepping in

1:00:38slowly and trying it out with very very

1:00:41little risk.

1:00:45>> You okay? Or

1:00:46>> Yeah. I mean, I still don't know how the

1:00:48energy is going to be transferred to

1:00:50there. Um the cost that's affiliated

1:00:52with that. We brought up a tiff. That's

1:00:54not going to be possible. Um, so again,

1:01:00I I still don't think that if you go to

1:01:03this individual or the owner, they're

1:01:06not going to understand the actual

1:01:07process as a whole. And I think that it

1:01:11it's a little too premature.

1:01:12>> So, another option is to not talk to the

1:01:15owner, just find out if it's feasible.

1:01:18>> Correct.

1:01:18>> And then if it's feasible,

1:01:20>> then you have an initial conver you, the

1:01:22owner may say, "I'm not interested at

1:01:24all." and then you did the study and

1:01:25it's feasible and they don't want it and

1:01:26that's fine. That's just the end of it.

1:01:28Or

1:01:29>> which that makes sense to you, you know,

1:01:31like why do we have to why do we have to

1:01:33have an actual location already

1:01:34determined when we don't know if it's

1:01:35feasible?

1:01:36>> The other thing that you don't need to

1:01:38know now because we don't even know if

1:01:40it's technically feasible is what are

1:01:43you going to do to pay for it? That's a

1:01:44whole another conversation before you

1:01:46consider applying for a design, right?

1:01:48you would we would have that

1:01:49conversation with you. If if it turns

1:01:51out they're like this is very feasible

1:01:53and these are all the benefits and you

1:01:54all get excited about it. We would spend

1:01:56a lot of time trying to answer that

1:01:58question. How do we pay for this? How

1:01:59does it make sense for this city? And we

1:02:01would we have some key experts that we

1:02:03would bring in to support you if you

1:02:04wanted us to.

1:02:06>> Um and then only if you decide that it

1:02:08makes sense would you then consider

1:02:10taking the next step for the design

1:02:12phase.

1:02:13>> And that's even before like the

1:02:15installation phase. you you have

1:02:16multiple like sort of guardrails along

1:02:18the way

1:02:19>> to uh decide whether you want to keep

1:02:22moving forward. This is not a huge

1:02:24commitment at this stage. Correct.

1:02:25>> It's just let's get the information to

1:02:27even know if it's technically feasible.

1:02:29That's

1:02:29>> and through you Mr. Chair, I think that

1:02:31makes the most sense like is this even

1:02:33feasible?

1:02:34>> And then if so, we can talk about this

1:02:36all day long or all night. It's great.

1:02:38But until we know what this feasibility

1:02:39still and I think that's where we are

1:02:41and I think that's why it's

1:02:43>> it's

1:02:44>> I don't again to put the cart before the

1:02:46horse when we don't even know if it's

1:02:47feasible you know and again the cost

1:02:48could determine how feasible this is. So

1:02:51we could be talking a million or we

1:02:53talking about $10 million. We don't know

1:02:55until we initially get this.

1:02:57>> And just in terms of the council over

1:02:59here's concern about um putting

1:03:01resources in now. Uh,

1:03:05from what I understand, the only

1:03:06resources would be, cuz we're happy to

1:03:08help with the grant, it would be the

1:03:10part of the grant that is specific to

1:03:12Marborough's system that we wouldn't

1:03:15know without your data. So, we would do

1:03:17a lot of the project description and

1:03:19anything that would be helpful for you.

1:03:20And then you would just plug in, you

1:03:21know, I don't know how many hours of

1:03:22staff time that would take. You probably

1:03:24have all this information on every other

1:03:25grant you've written just about. So, I

1:03:29don't hopefully it would not take a lot

1:03:30of DPW staff time. I I just I just can't

1:03:32have my department heads take the lead

1:03:34on this.

1:03:35>> Right. I just can't have my department

1:03:36heads take the lead on this. Like it's

1:03:38just not

1:03:39>> Yeah. We help in any way we can.

1:03:41>> Correct.

1:03:41>> No. And I get that. I just want to make

1:03:43sure that we're clear that like we have

1:03:44a city to run and and that's that's the

1:03:47main priority. So that's right.

1:03:48>> You know, but

1:03:49>> Okay. Councelor.

1:03:51>> Well, I will agree with the mayor here

1:03:53that I think we go for the grant money,

1:03:55the technical study grant money of

1:03:5715,000. appreciate your services to

1:04:00offer our DPW commissioner the time he

1:04:03needs to do his job. Uh especially

1:04:06during the snowstorm season. I'm sure

1:04:08you'll be quite busy, Ted. But I'm

1:04:11anxious about this. I've read that

1:04:12Germany is going to have 20% of their

1:04:15energy based on wastewater transitioning

1:04:19of the thermal energy transitioning 20%

1:04:23of their country. And I am tired of

1:04:26paying for fossil fuel to fuel my home,

1:04:30fuel my vehicles. We are in a dilemma in

1:04:33this country. I'll make that statement.

1:04:35We don't have to go any further than

1:04:37turning on the national news. And you'll

1:04:40see fossil fuel is not the way to go.

1:04:43And I'm excited about this project. At

1:04:46least let's do the feasibility study as

1:04:48the mayor just recommended. Let's not in

1:04:50any way take from our department heads.

1:04:53They're busy enough and I will commend

1:04:56Council Ducet for starting this process.

1:04:59Thank you.

1:05:01>> Thank you for that. Um,

1:05:04[clears throat]

1:05:05so

1:05:06when do Okay. If we're going to do a

1:05:09feasibility study for this project,

1:05:13um, when how long do you think Black

1:05:16Swan Lab would take to get a plinary

1:05:18draft done?

1:05:21could probably do it next week.

1:05:23[laughter]

1:05:24Get to you by the end of the week.

1:05:26>> And it it takes about a month. Uh they

1:05:28the D says it'll takes about a month for

1:05:30them to assess the grant and decide.

1:05:33>> Okay.

1:05:33>> Is there a deadline?

1:05:34>> Good news is that I just was on a call

1:05:36with the grant and they're

1:05:37>> they're they're going to do a a

1:05:39collection of grants at the same time

1:05:41because they want to compare them and

1:05:42have them in different parts of the

1:05:43state and so far they haven't gotten any

1:05:45grants. So we're not late. That's the

1:05:47good news cuz you know there's very

1:05:48limited money here. So, we're on the

1:05:50early side,

1:05:51>> right?

1:05:52>> Um and uh so that's that's good.

1:05:55>> Okay.

1:05:55>> Okay. Um

1:06:00let's see if

1:06:01>> Thank you.

1:06:02>> We were going we were talking before the

1:06:04meeting of doing uh next climate

1:06:08resilience meeting on August 3rd,

1:06:12which is actually

1:06:15Monday.

1:06:15>> Order of health meetings from 6:30 to

1:06:177:30. Can we do a meeting at 7:30?

1:06:19>> I don't know though.

1:06:20>> I I think the next meeting should be

1:06:22based upon whether or not the what the

1:06:24feasibility says.

1:06:26>> She said in about a week, but yeah.

1:06:28>> Right. But it has to be submitted.

1:06:29Correct.

1:06:29>> No. Well, it's got to be submitted by

1:06:31the feasibility study has to be

1:06:32submitted by the city, right?

1:06:33>> No. No. There's not a deadline first.

1:06:35>> Huh.

1:06:36>> It's rolling,

1:06:37>> right? But who submits the feasibility

1:06:39study?

1:06:40>> Oh, officially someone from your town

1:06:42has to be from the city. We can only

1:06:44help because we're not eligible as a

1:06:46nonprofit. Right.

1:06:46>> Okay.

1:06:47>> So,

1:06:48>> and the question is, do we want to

1:06:49review it before cuz it's going to be

1:06:51submitted from the city, so I expected

1:06:53that we would at least want to see it.

1:06:55>> Yeah.

1:06:55>> Well, I if I can interject, we'll get

1:06:58what information it is. We'll have the

1:06:59grant. We can email it around for

1:07:01comment, come down, and then we submit

1:07:03it like we do all our other grants.

1:07:06>> Yeah.

1:07:07>> Yeah. Yeah. So, just run with it and

1:07:10then you guys when you get the grant

1:07:12when when you get in a draft of the

1:07:13>> Well, we'll email it out to everybody

1:07:15for comment.

1:07:16>> Okay.

1:07:17>> Before we send it out,

1:07:18>> right?

1:07:19>> Okay.

1:07:20>> Whoever you can you can tell whoever you

1:07:23want to to put on the uh

1:07:25>> send it to the city council, too. But

1:07:27>> right,

1:07:28>> Mr. Chair.

1:07:29>> Yes, sir.

1:07:30>> I'd like to make a motion.

1:07:31>> Yes. that Blackstone puts together this

1:07:34the grant application up to including

1:07:37well up to the specs that you will need

1:07:40from the city. Someone from DPW will

1:07:43fill in the blanks that are needed on

1:07:45that application

1:07:47and then

1:07:49commissioner will once it's all been

1:07:51done the commissioner will send around

1:07:53the application to everyone in this

1:07:56meeting including the mayor. Um and then

1:08:00we will decide to whether to send it

1:08:01forward or not. That's my motion.

1:08:03>> Okay. Motion has been seconded to I'll

1:08:07Do you have a Do you have a comment,

1:08:08Trey?

1:08:10>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know I was just

1:08:12doing a little bit of homework about the

1:08:14grant and I guess what what I my

1:08:15question is what does this lock us into?

1:08:18Because I mean I I'm reading here

1:08:20there's three phases to the grant

1:08:22process like we discussed. Are we now

1:08:24locked in to going forward with a pro

1:08:26after the feasibility of project design

1:08:27and project construction?

1:08:29>> No.

1:08:29>> Okay. Because I'm seeing a little bit of

1:08:32conflicting information on the internet

1:08:33about that. But I also know it does say

1:08:35that nonprofits can apply. The issue is

1:08:38because it is the owner of the

1:08:40wastewater treatment plant that has to

1:08:41be the final applicant. But um I I just

1:08:45want we are not locked into anything

1:08:47beyond the I guess the energy assessment

1:08:50feasibility study. But again, I I go

1:08:52back to I'm not sure why why we need a

1:08:54motion for for what we've just

1:08:56discussed, I guess, is where I'm I'm a

1:08:58little I get it. It's to formalize this,

1:09:00but

1:09:00>> yes,

1:09:01>> um

1:09:02fair enough. I guess it seems like the

1:09:04mayor is on board with this. So, um

1:09:08Commissioner Scott is as well, but uh I

1:09:10I am just concerned that we're locking

1:09:12into something that goes that that is

1:09:14going to keep tumble. So, so I can the

1:09:18way I see this right is that each of

1:09:21these stages

1:09:23is um basically a gate. Okay. You know,

1:09:27are you going to take it serious to do a

1:09:29feasibility study? Yes. Then you get the

1:09:30feasibility study. After that, okay, do

1:09:34you want to go forward with the design?

1:09:36Okay. Then you, you know, we would

1:09:38decide then to go forward design. And

1:09:41then for construction, that's the third

1:09:43step for construction. So, it's just the

1:09:46three-step process. We're not locked in,

1:09:49but you but there's a sequence and we

1:09:51can stop with feasibility. If we find if

1:09:53we find it's not feasible, we're done,

1:09:55right? You know, if on the other hand,

1:09:57we find it feasible, then we got to

1:09:59start taking it more seriously.

1:10:01>> And they can't make you apply for the

1:10:03design phase too. They can't make you

1:10:05apply for any other phase.

1:10:07>> So, yeah.

1:10:09>> Sure.

1:10:09>> Thank you.

1:10:10>> Okay.

1:10:11>> Yes. Coun president.

1:10:13>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can you restate

1:10:14the motion?

1:10:18>> I make a motion that Black Swan

1:10:21>> will put together the uh application for

1:10:24the feasibility study up to everything

1:10:27that they can do other than the specs

1:10:29from the wastewater treatment plant that

1:10:31will be done by DPW.

1:10:34At that time, commissioner will send

1:10:36around the application to

1:10:38>> So, so hang on. So, that's a one long

1:10:40motion. I you know if you're going to

1:10:42write all that down I I can't wait to

1:10:44see your report. Council Ducet, what is

1:10:46the motion?

1:10:48>> The motion is

1:10:48>> you can't just keep adding words and

1:10:50stuff to it. That's not

1:10:51>> the motion is that this committee will

1:10:53go forward with the feasibility study.

1:10:56>> Concise enough.

1:11:00>> So you don't have council approval.

1:11:01Nothing needed. If the mayor wants to

1:11:03take it on, that's his job.

1:11:05>> But you you're going without any council

1:11:07input other than the five members here.

1:11:10So, so you don't know if you got And

1:11:12don't tell me you talked to people. That

1:11:13doesn't go well.

1:11:14>> No, no, no. That's I agree.

1:11:16>> You haven't reported anything out to the

1:11:17city council. No one's aware of what's

1:11:19going on.

1:11:20>> All right. I I am just talking to Sarah

1:11:23about this earlier today.

1:11:24>> I was nervous of Ted's and Priscilla's

1:11:26time.

1:11:28>> All right. That this project is going to

1:11:31undertake without any real data that

1:11:34shows it's going to work. I hear a lot

1:11:35of some place in Idaho and this place in

1:11:38Framingham that I haven't seen a scratch

1:11:41of data that says it works. I again I I

1:11:45admire the effort but I still think we

1:11:47are way early in the process my opinion.

1:11:52Thank you Mr. Chair.

1:11:53>> Okay.

1:11:56>> Yes Trey.

1:11:58>> Thank you Mr. Chair. I I I think I'm

1:12:00coming from a similar place as President

1:12:01Oing in the sense that that there seems

1:12:04to be buyin from the mayor. There seems

1:12:05to be buyin from the department heads.

1:12:07I'm not sure why we're going forward

1:12:09with a motion that as President Austin

1:12:13said the last meeting, we didn't report

1:12:14anything out from this committee even

1:12:16though we had a meeting, right? We're

1:12:18now having a second meeting as a

1:12:19committee and we've yet to report

1:12:21anything to the council about what we're

1:12:22doing here. And I hopefully the other

1:12:24counselors are watching, but they might

1:12:26not be, right? They're not on this

1:12:28committee. So, I I I do worry a little

1:12:31bit that moving to commit the city and

1:12:34our resources, albeit modest, because

1:12:36thank you, Black Swan Labs. I I'm I'm

1:12:40you know, if if there's buy in, there's

1:12:41buyin and we can move ahead. I I'm I I

1:12:44don't know why we're making a motion. I

1:12:45I would like it to be reported out first

1:12:47off, you know, at the at the next

1:12:49council meeting, but again, that's in

1:12:51August and, you know, are we I assume

1:12:54we're meeting before our next council

1:12:55meeting in August again. So, I I don't

1:12:58know. I'm I'm also weary of the timeline

1:13:01in which we're doing this, the speed at

1:13:02which we're doing this, which is great.

1:13:04We should we should be working hard to

1:13:06make this happen. But again, we've had

1:13:07two meetings, so I don't uh um not sure

1:13:12I could support a motion on this, but

1:13:14>> the motion you just you pretty much just

1:13:16gave stated why we have a motion. The

1:13:19first meeting, we didn't have anything

1:13:20come out out of the committee. The

1:13:22motion right now to go to the

1:13:23feasibility study would go to in my

1:13:25opinion should go to the over to the

1:13:28next ch uh council meeting and as a

1:13:31report of committees and and the chair

1:13:34would report that the committee met and

1:13:36we made a a vote to send forth the the

1:13:39feasibility study.

1:13:40>> Mr. Chair,

1:13:41>> actually let me let me insert something.

1:13:43>> I actually haven't yielded my time. I

1:13:46hate to do that but I I was speaking

1:13:48before I was interrupted. I do want to

1:13:49point out there was a motion at the last

1:13:51meeting of this committee.

1:13:53>> I couldn't I can't remember it because

1:13:55it was another long drawn out motion,

1:13:57but we made a motion and it didn't come

1:13:59out to the council. So, I'm worried that

1:14:00we're in a redundant cycle here and

1:14:02we're doing it again tonight.

1:14:04>> Um, are you are you done?

1:14:06>> I yield my time, Mr. Chair.

1:14:08>> I was trying I I was trying to get

1:14:10before you interrupted and I apologize

1:14:12for interrupting you. Um, but I had a

1:14:16talk with Sarah cuz I was very surprised

1:14:18that there wasn't the minutes in the

1:14:19mailbox. All kidding aside, and I had a

1:14:23conversation with her and she said

1:14:24basically nothing was sent out of

1:14:26committee. That's why she didn't do the

1:14:27agenda. She didn't do the minutes. So I

1:14:30I had a conversation with her. She's

1:14:32going to put the minutes in place and

1:14:34the we'll be doing both meeting two or

1:14:37three meetings depending upon how many

1:14:39we have between now and the August

1:14:41council meeting as far as what's going

1:14:43on. Um now Ted made a comment that most

1:14:47of the grants for this type we approve

1:14:51it after the city accepts the grants. We

1:14:54we as a we as a council do not approve

1:14:59sending out grants.

1:15:01So we can we basically if the grant goes

1:15:06out and the state gives us the grant,

1:15:08the s the council approves that grant,

1:15:12but we don't approve it ahead of time.

1:15:14So I don't think this vote has to go to

1:15:18the council, nothing personal, um to be

1:15:21voted on to be accepted. I think that we

1:15:23can if this works out and we get the

1:15:26grant, then we approve the grant when it

1:15:29gets accepted. Yes, President Motion

1:15:31just blacks want to go do something.

1:15:33>> Okay,

1:15:34>> there's no motion.

1:15:35>> Okay, you guys want to continue then on

1:15:38doing that?

1:15:38>> Mr. Chair, I retract my motion.

1:15:40>> So moved. Thank you for the

1:15:42clarification.

1:15:45Uh,

1:15:47so I I actually think that we spent a

1:15:49lot of time in the second two bullets,

1:15:51which is exactly what I wanted to do as

1:15:54far as what is going on here because I

1:15:57think at the end of the day, you know,

1:15:59this this project in particular is a

1:16:02small project that can demonstrate what

1:16:04we're trying to do throughout the city,

1:16:06but it's just a small space to do it in.

1:16:10and we'll see what sort of how far it

1:16:12goes down the path as far as that goes.

1:16:15Um

1:16:17the old business um

1:16:21we never really got into but basically

1:16:23you know what other

1:16:25uh funding there could be for

1:16:27feasibility for these types of projects.

1:16:31Uh I mean you guys do a lot of grants

1:16:36and stuff and keep an eye on what sort

1:16:38of state grants there are that are

1:16:40coming in. What is out there or do you

1:16:42see any other types of grants out there

1:16:44for this type of these types of efforts?

1:16:47I mean

1:16:48Ted or Priscilla,

1:16:51do you guys know of any other grants or

1:16:53things that are available?

1:16:54>> We can we can look. I I don't know of

1:16:56any personally.

1:16:58>> Um we we did help. Uh it looks like in

1:17:01the environmental bond bill there might

1:17:03be $15 million to do in installations

1:17:06like this.

1:17:08>> Um but it has not yet been approved.

1:17:10Should be approved potentially sometime

1:17:12this week.

1:17:13>> Okay. Um

1:17:15>> and the state does have we're a green

1:17:16community. We have fund you know

1:17:18sometimes there's funding there. There's

1:17:20lead by example. the DOER has um funding

1:17:23in. Um there's there's a variety of of

1:17:27grants that, you know, when they seem

1:17:30feasible, you know, we talk about it, we

1:17:32decide what what makes sense and we talk

1:17:35to the mayors, decide what what makes

1:17:37sense to to apply for. Um the geothermal

1:17:41stuff is new. So, um, you know, they the

1:17:45the lead by example is is is a grant

1:17:48that's kind of like if you want to, you

1:17:50know, do pilots or do something like

1:17:52that, um, it's it's there. I don't know

1:17:54how much money it's it's there, but

1:17:56>> that's the OE.

1:17:58Yeah. And ju just to add that the

1:17:59governor recently announced a um build

1:18:02build mass uh revolving fund that would

1:18:07be potentially very helpful for

1:18:08borrowing money at very low interest to

1:18:10build these kind of infrastructure

1:18:12projects. A big chunk of it is meant to

1:18:13be for clean energy projects. So that's

1:18:15another source. And also uh state

1:18:18revolving fund also can sometimes be

1:18:20leveraged if you're doing something else

1:18:22with your your sewer system.

1:18:26Okay, Mr.

1:18:27>> Chair.

1:18:28>> Yes, sir.

1:18:28>> And and grants aren't unusual. We've

1:18:31seen them for recycling. You know,

1:18:32that's how we got to where we are now.

1:18:35You know, we see a lot of grants coming

1:18:37from the state because they see the

1:18:38initiative to start getting cleaner

1:18:41energy, start reducing our waste cycles,

1:18:46state revolving funds. Thanks for our

1:18:48sewer and water. You know, it helps us

1:18:50there. So, this isn't unusual. So, I

1:18:54would support us going for the 15,000

1:18:57for this study, this technical study as

1:19:01a minimum, but I would support it when

1:19:04it comes back to the full council.

1:19:06>> Thank you.

1:19:08>> Um,

1:19:10I'll look into the lead by example.

1:19:11That's actually good. Um, the other two

1:19:13bullets on the bottom, this is just

1:19:15stuff that were brought up.

1:19:17Um, I have talked to the city solicitor

1:19:20about setting up a non-binding

1:19:22referendum

1:19:24um for the 2027 election because I think

1:19:27that's something that needs to be

1:19:29visible to the citizens. um the use of

1:19:33AI in doing the analysis just on geo

1:19:36geographical geothermal geographical ge

1:19:40geological data um and do some analysis

1:19:43based on that you know overlaying what

1:19:46we have with GIS you know there's

1:19:49opportunities to accelerate the use of

1:19:52uh identifying where things it makes

1:19:53sense to do drilling basically um but we

1:19:57we can keep that as an item I'm trying

1:19:59to get in touch with city solicitor for

1:20:01the next meeting uh just to have a

1:20:03conversation with him about what it

1:20:05takes to do that as a process because I

1:20:07think that's that's an important part of

1:20:09this. Um,

1:20:12is there So, you guys are going to start

1:20:15working on the grant and

1:20:19we're going to set up a meeting for

1:20:24in uh August

1:20:27for

1:20:28>> I thought we were going to I thought we

1:20:29were going to do everything through

1:20:30Ted's email.

1:20:32>> Um, well, I also want to get the city

1:20:34solicitor in here to talk about the

1:20:35non-binding referendum.

1:20:37>> Mr. Mr. Sheriff, if I could interrupt, I

1:20:40would really prefer not to continue to

1:20:43use city resources until we get an

1:20:45understanding of what the feasibility

1:20:47entails. Okay.

1:20:48>> And that way we can have a further

1:20:50dialogue and incorporate how we can move

1:20:52forward because if it the feasibility

1:20:54study says it's not feasible, then it's

1:20:57not worth it to continue to have these

1:20:59conversations until we understand what

1:21:02we're up against.

1:21:03>> Okay.

1:21:05Understood.

1:21:05>> Thank you.

1:21:07>> That's taken care of then. Yes, sir.

1:21:08>> Mr. Chair, just real quick, just

1:21:10something to throw out there kind of for

1:21:11for um I don't know where this goes, but

1:21:14a conversation for the solicitor. I

1:21:16agree with the mayor, right? Not coming

1:21:18down here to discuss the the local

1:21:20ballot question. I would be concerned

1:21:21about the political implications, right?

1:21:24What kind of committee has to be behind

1:21:26that? How does OCPF, the Office of

1:21:28Campaign and Political Finance shape

1:21:30out, right? A referendum like that, I

1:21:32worry about a city council body or I

1:21:35here in the city discussing that. So, I

1:21:37would just like, you know, like kind of

1:21:39sending back to you if this is something

1:21:40you would like to do, I would encourage

1:21:42that that conversation be had with the

1:21:43solicitor, but maybe not with the

1:21:45committee before, you know, I would I

1:21:48would like some sort of clarification

1:21:49there. I'm I'm very concerned that that

1:21:51could be violating some sort of campaign

1:21:53finance laws or some sort of

1:21:54electioneering in some way.

1:21:56>> Honestly, that's why I wanted to get the

1:21:57city's lister involved, but considering

1:21:59that my boss just said wait it out.

1:22:01>> Mr. Sir, I'm listening to my boss.

1:22:03>> I am not your boss. I I believe we can

1:22:05work together in this. However, I feel

1:22:08that

1:22:09>> we we have to take this next step. I I'm

1:22:12on board. Take this meeting as a win.

1:22:14I'm on board for this next step and then

1:22:16we can re-evaluate. We can reassess and

1:22:18we can see where the next step is. So,

1:22:20it's a win for tonight. So, let's let's

1:22:22call it a night so I can go home and eat

1:22:24dinner, please.

1:22:25>> Chair, make a motion to adjourn.

1:22:28>> Motion is seconded to adjourn. All those

1:22:30in favor?

1:22:32Okay. Mo meeting is ended at

1:22:368:23 p.m.

1:22:37>> Thank you.

1:22:38>> Thank you.