2026-07-07 - Climate Resiliency Committee

0:02This is a meeting of the climate

0:04resiliency committee to cover order

0:06number 26-10009726.

0:11Uh communication from council Dave Ducet

0:13regarding requests for the city to

0:14investigate geothermal energy. Uh

0:17there's some handouts and there's some

0:18stuff that's also been posted on the

0:20website. Uh there's some updates that

0:22need to be done for the data on the

0:24website that'll show up in the next uh

0:26council meeting. Um

0:30but uh what I wanted to do really is

0:33just go through some uh general ground

0:36loose issues for now. Uh I'm doing this

0:40through PowerPoint because basically

0:43uh I organized my own notes in

0:45PowerPoint so it made it easier to do

0:46that. Um so the goal of the the series

0:50of meetings is to develop proposal for a

0:52feasibility study. Uh I expect multiple

0:55meetings um with different speakers and

0:57specialists based upon who shows up and

0:59what we need. Um but the structure of

1:02the meeting we get the agenda we have

1:03new business old business prove the

1:06minutes all that this is an ongoing

1:08series of meetings. Um and if Mike

1:12correct me if I'm wrong if this is not

1:14the appropriate approach. So um but uh

1:18you know the assumption is basically

1:19that we will have multiple meetings with

1:21different speakers uh specialists uh

1:24probably plan a few meetings ahead. I'd

1:26like to try to do meetings every other

1:27week or so and try to get things paced

1:30that way. Um and I think the uh

1:33fundamental assumption here is that

1:34basically the cost of getting energy to

1:37us is cheaper than the energy itself.

1:38And we got to start developing our own

1:40local energy and fossil fuels seems to

1:42be a likely oh sorry uh thermal exchange

1:45networks would be a likely candidate for

1:48us to uh heat and cool our homes. So

1:52hold on.

1:54Um, for today's blue knit, uh, new

1:56business, uh, Black Swan Lab will be

1:59doing a presentation when they show up.

2:01Um, there's other actions I've been

2:03discussing, but hadn't put it into the

2:06draft of the editorial, but having the

2:08non-binding referendum in 2027

2:11ballot and getting that in place to get

2:14the view of the people of the city of

2:16whether or not they want to do something

2:17like this. um and basically you know the

2:20infamous search for funding uh for the

2:23feasibility study etc. So we don't have

2:25to cover a lot of the cost. Um the use

2:29of AI, I've been toying with AI just

2:32doing research with this and I found it

2:34very effective and to if if there's a

2:38structure for a feas proposal for a

2:40feasibility study. You could feed it

2:42into AI and it'll give you the first

2:45draft. I'm not saying it's the final

2:47draft, but it will give you a first

2:48draft that you can then walk through,

2:50edit, and change as necessary. Um and uh

2:54the other part of AI is actually just to

2:57if we can capture geological data of

2:59Malber, feed it into an AI model and ask

3:02them where to drill the wells. So um

3:05there's opportunities with the

3:07technology I think we need to be keeping

3:09an eye on. Um

3:12Oops.

3:14And that's basically the three slides

3:16that I had. Um, you know, when we get

3:20the minutes, we'll go through that in

3:21the next for the next meeting. Um, for

3:24the three of us, are we comfortable

3:26having a meeting in like two weeks? Two

3:28weeks from Tuesday, two weeks from

3:30today.

3:32Are you

3:33guys available for that?

3:42That'd be the 21st.

3:47Yeah,

3:52>> I'm good.

3:53>> You get both of you guys. So, I'm

3:55getting confirmation.

3:56>> We have the council meeting on the 20th.

3:58>> On the 20th. That's fine.

3:59>> Yep.

3:59>> Yeah.

4:01>> Mr. Chair.

4:02>> Yes.

4:03>> Thank Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah. I I

4:04mean, I can confirm I would be available

4:06in the evening of the 21st. I think

4:07just, you know, so long as we know kind

4:10of who's coming, who's presenting, what

4:11Yeah. Right. All that sort of stuff

4:12ahead of time, I would be comfortable

4:14with that.

4:14>> Yep.

4:15>> Yep. 7 p.m.

4:16>> Uh 7. We'll do 7 p.m. Yep.

4:22>> Dave, you're here.

4:24>> You are here. Excellent.

4:41>> Yeah.

4:45just planning the next meeting after

4:47this one. We're meeting in two weeks

4:48again. So for folks online, uh the folks

4:53in Black Swan Labs just showed up. So um

4:57do you want to start with the

4:59presentation now? You good? Okay, let me

5:01switch controls for a minute.

5:21slideshow up there.

5:29>> Slideshow up on the top.

5:37I guess

5:39there's the remote such a sense of

5:40power. Um,

5:42>> you can stand there with the mic.

5:44>> Okay, awesome. Thank you so much. Um,

5:48hey, uh, pleased to talk to you all.

5:50Thank you so much for the the honor of

5:52being here. Um, I'm Audrey Schulman. Uh,

5:54I'm the executive director at Black Swan

5:56Lab. Uh, we do practical solutions uh to

6:01solve, you know, to reduce climate

6:03change. Um, and we're funded by the Bar

6:06Foundation.

6:08Cool. Um, so I don't know if you've

6:10heard of thermal networks, but the uh

6:12I'll explain what they are in a second,

6:14but they um the very first one installed

6:17ever in the world by gas utility is uh

6:20installed in Framingham. Um and

6:24uh it is uh it's quite exciting and I

6:29was lucky enough to be one of the major

6:30people to to help ha make it happen.

6:34Um, no.

6:38Okay, good. Um, this is a thermal

6:42network. Uh, to give you a better idea

6:44what it is, it is uh heat pumps. If you

6:47know what heat pumps are, they're

6:49basically like air conditioners that can

6:51run forward or backward. So, they

6:53provide heating and cooling. But instead

6:56of pulling that temperature from the air

6:58outside, which as you can imagine is

7:01very volatile in temperature, they pull

7:04temperature from pipes under the ground

7:07where it's way easier to control that

7:10the temperature of the water. So the

7:11heat pumps connected can always work at

7:14their greatest efficiency. And so

7:16because of that, they are very very

7:18efficient. Um

7:23there. No,

7:26there we go. So they can p they get that

7:29temperature of the water which is just

7:32not over not hot, not cold. It's in an

7:35ambient temperature range between like

7:3740 and 90°. So it's just keeping it sort

7:41of you know it would be cold almost to

7:43your touch uh by running the water

7:46either through bore holes in this case

7:51or getting that temperature from

7:53wastewater.

7:55Um this is an installation going in in

7:57Syracuse that will be owned by National

8:00Grid and the city the county in Syracuse

8:03I think will be selling the wastewater

8:06temperature to National Grid.

8:09um and or that you can get that thermal

8:12energy from uh waste heat such as from

8:16an ice rink. So an ice rink you can

8:19imagine is always pulling wants lots and

8:21lots of cold so it would return the

8:24water into the that that pipe hotter and

8:28that heat can then go to homes down the

8:30street. Every ice rink produces enough

8:35temperature to heat 50 homes.

8:39Yeah,

8:41it's a shame to waste.

8:42>> We get 12 ranks in Marboro.

8:44>> Exactly.

8:45>> That doesn't count the name.

8:47>> Um, so you've you've got a lot of this

8:51right here. Um, so thermal networks are

8:54being installed uh everywhere across the

8:57continent. In Europe, they're installing

9:00systems of 10,000 units at a time.

9:04Uh, so they're they can go very large.

9:09Um there's some of them sorry for the

9:12>> quick question on the other uh go back a

9:14minute.

9:15>> Um what's the definite why are there

9:17different colors? Is there

9:18>> some of them are owned by utility you

9:20know there uh you can go to that link

9:22it's building decarbonization coalition

9:24okay

9:25>> and look I think some of them are owned

9:26by utilities some of them are owned by

9:28universities some of them are wastewater

9:30some of them are waste heat some of them

9:32are you know so it's different types of

9:34uh thermal networks

9:38um so one of the things they can do is

9:40radically reduce because they're so

9:42efficient our electric peaks as we move

9:45more and more towards electricity

9:48for everything. Um, so this is ISO New

9:51England's prediction of how much

9:53electricity New England will need in the

9:55future. Um, and on the left, how much

10:00that might cost to increase our

10:02transmission that much. So 25 billion at

10:05the top. So the more we can bring that

10:08peak down,

10:10the lower our electric bills will be.

10:12And that's just transmission.

10:14It's going to be much more also to do

10:16distribution system.

10:18So, uh here's Oh, wait. I gotta get

10:22hold. Okay, there we go. Here's uh a

10:26estimate on how much thermal networks

10:28can save. Each of these lines, each of

10:31these are are pathways towards that

10:34electrification towards all of our

10:36buildings using only electricity,

10:39different methods using airsource heat

10:41pumps, etc. And thermal networks have

10:45the lowest peak use and so they can save

10:48us an enormous amount not only in

10:50transmission but also in distribution

10:52system and all of that all of us get get

10:55you know electric customers we're the

10:57ones who pay. So what this means is

10:59thermal networks can reduce how much our

11:02electric bills rise in the future which

11:05Lord knows everybody would be happy

11:08about after last winter. So in back up a

11:13so in this one in particular um what is

11:16the ramp up of thermal networks in doing

11:19that on the existing customer base I

11:22mean what's your buildout assumption to

11:24make

11:25>> so that's by 2050 this is for New

11:27England this is done by E3 which is you

11:29know and they were assuming uh I think

11:3122% of homes would go to thermal

11:34networks and 49% of businesses

11:38>> 22% of homes

11:40and 49% of businesses.

11:43Um, and so that is, you know, but any

11:47thermal network, each thermal network

11:49will reduce your electric peak in

11:51comparison.

11:52>> Oh, absolutely.

11:53>> To airsource heat pumps, etc. Anybody

11:56have airsource heat pumps here?

11:59>> Um, I I do too. They're they're uh great

12:03and this is better.

12:06Um so your thermal energy bills uh they

12:10will be so this is with gas furnace.

12:12This is by applied economics clinic. Uh

12:15the next one is uh the your annual

12:19heating bill uh for the average

12:21Massachusetts home with thermal network

12:24using the heat pump rate that we

12:25currently have. But we're probably

12:28moving to a version two of the heat pump

12:30rate. And so the thermal network charge

12:33annual heating charge would be even

12:35lower.

12:38So uh that is if it was if it's done

12:40this is a prediction by applied

12:41economics clinic if it's done by a gas

12:44utility and that's a for-profit gas

12:47utility. But you've got another option

12:49open

12:50which is uh you could have them

12:53installed by your municipality which is

12:55nonprofit,

12:57right? You don't need to pay back the

12:59investors. Denver is doing it uh is

13:03installing thermal networks now. They're

13:06going to do so with wastewater as well

13:07as with bore holes. Boise, Idaho has a

13:10system that's been functioning since the

13:1270s, I think maybe the 80s. Uh, West

13:15Union has had one for 20 years. Uh, and

13:18Ann Arbor, Michigan is currently

13:21installing one. So, this is an option

13:24available to you. And that would reduce

13:28the am costs for all of your residents

13:31in comparison to a for-profit

13:34utility doing it. But for-profit

13:37utilities are always an option. Yes. So

13:40I know one of these and I forget which

13:42one it was um might have been the West

13:44the ones that's been been there for a

13:45while. It seems that in these cases,

13:48some of the older networks, are they

13:51continu are they expanding the network

13:52or is it staying the way it is

13:54>> because it seems that they don't seem to

13:57expand much.

13:58>> And uh Karen's here too and so she'll

14:00correct me if I get any of this wrong

14:01and she can look stuff up as we talk.

14:03But I believe uh Boise if I remember

14:06correctly is expanding and uh and West

14:10Union has been bringing more not

14:12expanding the loop if I remember

14:13correctly but has been adding more

14:15customers to it and the more they do

14:17that the lower cost it is for each

14:19customer

14:20>> because you've already installed the

14:22system and so this the customers are

14:25paying back for the installation and the

14:28operations and maintenance. So, the more

14:29you have on the system.

14:31>> So, the town does the I was just going

14:32to ask that does the operation and

14:34maintenance of the system as well.

14:36>> Yeah. In uh West Union, I think they

14:38have a nonprofit uh that they

14:40subcontract to to do that. Um or

14:43for-profit, I think it's for-profit or

14:45they call it a for-profit and it doesn't

14:47seem to make much profit. Um and uh

14:49Boise, I think they they have the city

14:52do it and you know, we can put you in

14:54contact with the you know, either one if

14:57you want. Uh and Ann Arbor is is just

15:00installing now and it's using a

15:02Department of Energy grant.

15:04>> Okay.

15:05>> Um

15:05>> a number of cities nearby that have uh

15:08utilities. The city, the municipality

15:10runs this the utilities.

15:11>> Yes. Yeah. I mean, and you run your

15:13water and your sewer, I assume. So, and

15:16it would be very similar to that. Um,

15:19and if you do it, you're not gonna uh

15:24you it'll be much you won't change the

15:28energy the thermal bill much as opposed

15:30to for-profit utilities potentially.

15:33Um, so there's a lot of Massachusetts

15:36municipalities who are interested in

15:38thermal networks. Um, and that's partly

15:41because the tax credit exists still, not

15:45for solar, not for renewable, but it

15:47does for for thermal networks on bore

15:49holes. Um, and so these are all the

15:52feasibility studies of different

15:53Massachusetts towns

15:56uh who want uh to do to go to thermal

15:59networks. Um, and that IRA tax credit is

16:0430 to 50% of the cost. So that's a chunk

16:09of of potential savings right now.

16:12>> So the 30 to 50% is taken over for how

16:16many years?

16:18>> Uh it's just the cost of the

16:20installation.

16:21>> So if you spent $10 million, you would

16:23get $5 million back up to $5 million

16:26back.

16:26>> Right. But how many years does it take

16:27to depreciate? I went through all this

16:29when I had my solar panels installed.

16:31>> Oh.

16:31>> I got threeear depreciation schedule for

16:33the solar panels. Uh, so depreciation.

16:37>> I'm not sure I'm going to get the

16:38depreciation right. Um, but as I

16:40understand it, it's a direct pay at the

16:42so it never leaves the municipality's

16:44pocket.

16:45>> So, so it's not depreciation. It's like

16:49just

16:50>> it's a grant

16:51>> basically. Yeah.

16:52>> Okay,

16:53>> Mr. Chair.

16:54>> Yes.

16:55>> A quick clarification.

16:55>> Oh, sure.

16:56>> Thank you. Um, what is the how long is

16:59that funded through?

17:00>> I think it's 2035.

17:03It's 33.

17:04>> 33. Okay.

17:05>> Thank you.

17:06>> We're gonna have the the person in the

17:07back will correct me each time I'm

17:09wrong.

17:09>> That's great. Thank you.

17:12>> Um,

17:13so in Marboro,

17:17you got two wastewater treatment plants,

17:19not one, but two. Um, and you've got the

17:23largest ice rink in North America.

17:26Uh, and you've got the ground

17:29everywhere. So, you've got three really

17:31great options to get that thermal energy

17:34from. Um, and so let's look at them a

17:37little more closely. Uh, right now, you

17:40know, here's one of your wastewater

17:42treatment plants up in the corner there.

17:45Uh, and you can see there's a lot of

17:47buildings nearby.

17:49U, most of them are commercial. You've

17:51got, if I remember correctly, about 3.5

17:54million gallons per day through that

17:56wastewater treatment plant. So that

17:58means uh you have enough for about you

18:00know approximately 300 homes which is

18:04probably several of those large

18:05commercial buildings.

18:07Um

18:08>> 300 homes will get my neighborhood right

18:10down in the bottom.

18:12>> Yeah, there you go. You just have to get

18:14the pipe there. Um, right now there's a

18:18Department of Environmental Protection

18:19grant to do both the feasibility study,

18:23the design and the installation

18:26of that wastewater energy recovery

18:28system. So, that's just the the thermal

18:32source. You'd still have to install the

18:35distribution system and there'd still be

18:36the building conversions.

18:39>> Um, uh, and that D grant is a rolling

18:44grant. they've got only $5 million. So

18:48once that's used up, that goes. You

18:50can't you can't that offer is not there

18:51anymore. So I recommend you look at that

18:55first.

18:57Um

18:58>> is it a rolling grant period or does it

19:00refresh every year?

19:02>> It's uh just the first time they've ever

19:03offered it. I don't think, you know,

19:05they don't think they have plans to

19:06offer it again.

19:07>> Okay.

19:10>> Uh here's the New England Sports Center.

19:13You got a lot of homes across the

19:15highway. Uh that's again because you got

19:1812 ice rinks there. In my rough

19:20figuring, you've got enough to heat 600

19:23homes because it's 50 homes

19:26approximately per ice rink.

19:30So there's a lot of homes. Or you could

19:33do on this side,

19:34>> but they are for profit. They would have

19:37obviously need to get their permission

19:39to

19:39>> Oh, yeah.

19:40>> They would make money off of this. Yes,

19:42they could get revenue from it. And I

19:44looked up on the web and you know, Lord

19:46knows if it's right, but it looks like

19:48one of their HVAC units might be uh

19:50fairly old.

19:53>> So that might be a time that they might

19:55be very interested in replacing it

19:59and moving to the system where they're

20:01selling their heat.

20:04>> Mr. Chair,

20:05>> yes, thank you. uh what is the forgive

20:08my ignorance on a heat pump and how

20:10these networks um work but what is the

20:13capacity what's the distance for

20:15something like this to

20:16>> be functional right you point up to

20:19those homes and to the commercial but

20:20how far

20:22>> uh so um the the Framingham installation

20:26is a onem loop approximately uh there's

20:29other installations that are bigger the

20:31frame you know there you want to if

20:34generally you want to have some thermal

20:36source uh every

20:40you know half mile something like that

20:41so you can bring things back to

20:43temperature if you need to.

20:44>> Okay, thanks.

20:45>> Um

20:49>> yes, they're they're modular so you can

20:51install one and then grow over time.

20:53They're like Lego blocks

20:55>> even though each block is a well that's

20:573 to 600 feet deep,

20:59>> right?

21:00>> Uh yes, if you do bore holes, they're

21:02they're 300 to 600 feet deep,

21:05>> right? or or if you're able to tap into

21:07um a sewer tap or something like that,

21:09>> right? There could be a sewer

21:10interceptor in there too,

21:13etc.

21:14>> So, one of the things that we talked

21:16about is that the network itself because

21:19it's all under the frost line, the

21:21network actually provides a thermal uh

21:24register as well. So, as it if it

21:28travels further, it's still in ground

21:30temperature. So the, you know, if it

21:33comes back warm and if it travels half a

21:36mile to a well, it may actually be at

21:38ground temperature before it gets to its

21:40destination because of the length of the

21:42pipes, it's still underground. So

21:44>> yeah.

21:45>> Do you mind speak to the thermal battery

21:46aspect of it?

21:47>> Yeah. And it's

21:48>> You want to come up to the mic and

21:49speak?

21:52>> Okay.

21:53>> Um, so one of the things is the water

21:56itself has an enormous amount of thermal

21:58storage in it, right? if you if that

22:00water there's a an installation at

22:02Colorado Mesa University with over

22:04100,000 gallons of water in that loop

22:07that's over a mile long. And so if that

22:10water of 100,000 gallons uh in that big

22:14pipe running around the system is at 90°

22:19um that's an enormous

22:21battery thermal battery that you can

22:23pull the temperature off at any time.

22:26It's it's equivalent to many many you

22:28know therms of gas and I could go I

22:32don't have the numbers off the top of my

22:33head but you can just it's a giant

22:34battery.

22:36>> Um and if you did it to the to those uh

22:39businesses instead each of them use

22:41energy in a very different way. So one

22:44of them would to be taking heating and

22:46making the water colder. The next one

22:48would be taking cold maybe and making

22:51the water, you know, like it they would

22:53go back and forth and you'd get

22:54simultaneous load cancellation also,

22:57right? That ice rink to the homes kind

22:59of concept.

23:01Um, uh, and here's Boston Scientific,

23:05which uh I believe uh Dave, you've

23:09talked to them or something and they

23:10might

23:10>> someone talked to them and they

23:11expressed interest in putting geothermal

23:13in. Yes.

23:14>> So they they might do bore holes.

23:16There's a lot of buildings around them.

23:18There's some schools

23:20etc. And that way they might take on the

23:23cost of doing the bore holes and you

23:25just do the distribution system or you

23:28choose your utility to do the

23:30distribution system.

23:32Um,

23:33>> so this could be something that say

23:34could go to the hospital, which is the

23:36emergency department at UMass, or it

23:38could go to the high school and the uh

23:42um the the elementary school uh good now

23:46brothers up in front.

23:47>> Yeah, you're missing the dental care

23:49place in the corner. Um yes,

23:52>> you could you could do it many different

23:53ways.

23:54>> Yeah.

23:54>> Um and this would be, you know, you'd

23:57want to do uh an engineering study to

24:00try to figure this out.

24:02Um, but if there's a lot of different

24:04ways forward here, I would talk to

24:06Boston Scientific, check and make sure

24:09they're interested in this concept and

24:11then potentially do a feasibility study.

24:14I would go to New England Sports Center

24:16and ask like, "Hey, is your HVAC gold?

24:18Do you want revenue?"

24:20>> Um, and I would uh fill out the

24:23Massachusetts D grant for wastewater

24:25energy recovery. We will help you. We're

24:28already doing that with uh for South

24:30Hadley and uh potentially for you know

24:34we we'll find out but maybe for for

24:36other towns. Um so we are happy to do

24:39that

24:40>> Mr. Chair.

24:41>> Yes.

24:41>> In the area of Boston Scientific we have

24:44a capped landfill as well as an ice

24:47skating rink right across the street.

24:49>> Really?

24:49>> Yes. It's a Naven rink. It's one rink,

24:52but um council n

24:54>> that right that

24:55>> curious on this athletic field

24:58>> that right building right next to it.

24:59>> No way there.

25:00>> Yeah.

25:01>> You're just curious on capped landfills.

25:04Can they be utilized in any way for this

25:07type of energy?

25:08>> I would think uh you'd have to go

25:11through uh so you probably don't want to

25:13do bore holes on the capped land because

25:15you don't want to go through the cap and

25:17break it. Um, and

25:20>> no, I don't.

25:21>> Is all of that cap land? The parking

25:24lot, the

25:27>> parking lots possibly.

25:29>> Yeah,

25:29>> those areas

25:31the right.

25:33>> All of that is kept. Okay.

25:35>> Just curious.

25:36>> I'm not an engineer, but I assume that

25:38that might be a difficult that might be

25:40a problem.

25:40>> Just the edges maybe or the parking lots

25:42you were saying for the cap landfill. If

25:45there's parking lots there and that

25:47aren't capped,

25:48>> yeah, then I then I would assume you

25:49would not want the bore holes anywhere

25:51in the capped land. However, for our

25:52understanding,

25:52>> uncapped land should be fine.

25:54>> Yeah.

25:54>> Good.

25:55>> I was talking with Priscilla Ryder. You

25:56said that, you know, and we have to get

25:59Priscilla Ryder and probably um uh Ted

26:04from DPW up in here because, you know,

26:07can we drill in conservation land? And

26:11is, you know, if if we're doing just a

26:13thermal capture, is that considered

26:14stewardship of conservation land?

26:17Because it's a very minor, you know,

26:19insignificant impact. Uh but there's a

26:22whole bunch of conservation land around

26:24here and other places that we could tap

26:26into.

26:27>> Yeah, I think if it's under if it's

26:29state land, then you have to do article

26:3097 if I remember correctly. And so uh

26:33they the uh EA at you know the

26:37governor's office might want to make

26:38that process simpler. So if you want to

26:41go to them to ask for a simpler process,

26:44that would probably be helpful for you

26:45and others.

26:47>> Thank you.

26:48>> Okay. Yes, Trey.

26:51>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a a quick

26:53question. So, looking at these three

26:55sites, right, the the wastewater

26:56treatment plant, the New England Sports

26:58Center, and Boston Scientific. I can

27:00understand that with the wastewater

27:01treatment plant, we're we're using the

27:02actual wastewater itself. Um we wouldn't

27:05be drilling bore fields there in theory,

27:08right? And and same is true for the

27:10sports center and Boston Scientific.

27:12Yeah. Right. Yes.

27:12>> So, how how are we

27:13>> Boston Scientific would be drill holes,

27:15bore holes.

27:16>> Okay. Okay. Okay. But

27:17>> but the other two would not be.

27:19>> I guess my question is how are we

27:21capturing the the waste heat from these

27:23sites? I mean this I'm just unfamiliar.

27:26>> No, it's it's a totally confusing

27:28concept. So waste water has temperature

27:30to it. All those warm showers all you

27:33know it

27:34>> fermenting stuff.

27:37>> It's it's generally between 60 and 90

27:39degrees. Sure. which is the kind of

27:41temperature that heat pumps are very

27:43happy and they work very efficiently

27:45with to provide you the temperature you

27:47want in your house whether heating or

27:49cooling.

27:50>> Uh and uh with ice rinks you would only

27:53be able to provide heating because you'd

27:56be taking the ice rink would take all

27:58the cold off the water and all the homes

28:00would get all the the heat or any

28:02businesses.

28:04>> Thank Yeah know that helps a lot. Thank

28:06you. And the the bedrock you get

28:09temperature because it's in this area

28:10it's about 55 degrees all the time which

28:12again is a temperature range that makes

28:14heat pumps happen.

28:15>> Sure. And that's what Ever Source is

28:17doing in Framingham. Those are three

28:18bore fields that they drilled on Sounds

28:21like municipal property. Um Yes.

28:23>> Right. To then heat that small

28:25neighborhood.

28:25>> Yeah.

28:26>> Gotcha. Thank you. Thank you.

28:29>> Um so uh here's some uh press for

28:33different thermal networks. Um here's uh

28:37the Black Swan Lab team that we have.

28:40We're available, you know, we got the

28:41center of public enterprise who tries to

28:43figure out how public money can help uh

28:46econ, you know, economic uh everything.

28:50Um we got thermal energy insights, Eric

28:52Bosworth, who installed the Eversource

28:56Framingham thermal network and now he's

28:58on his own. Um and Lord knows what

29:02happened to all the formatting on this.

29:04And then uh we got uh Jamie von Nostrin

29:06who uh was the department of public

29:09utilities chair last year in

29:12Massachusetts and now is at the future

29:14of heat initiative. And uh so we are

29:16ready to help out with uh econom you

29:19know economic and financial questions uh

29:22with technical questions with

29:24legislative and regulatory questions and

29:26with who owns what how.

29:30Um and uh so if you're interested,

29:33please just, you know, any more

29:35questions, we're happy to help. We will

29:37help you do grants. We will help you do,

29:39you know, take whatever steps you want

29:41forward on this issue because I think

29:43Marorrow can lead on this.

29:45>> So,

29:45>> and we would love to help. Um, so go

29:49back to the three bullets of next steps

29:52type thing that um,

29:56you know, New England sport, reach out

29:57to New England Sports Center, reach out

29:58to Boston Scientific, that that's ours

30:01to do. Um, but, um, the D grant for

30:06wastewater energy recovery,

30:08>> you said you could do that. we would

30:10need uh numbers from your you know

30:14>> D sorry uh DPW

30:16>> DPW okay

30:18>> um and it wouldn't so if we do this

30:22quickly we could get a basically the

30:25grant for free

30:26>> potentially. Yeah. Sooner is better,

30:29right?

30:29>> Sooner is better. Uh the other thing to

30:31know about and uh the other thing to

30:33know is well two things to know. One you

30:36they prioritize underserved communities.

30:38So if you can get any affordable housing

30:41uh or you know have it in any

30:43environmental justice area, it's better.

30:45And the second thing to know about that

30:47grant uh is that um the you can also use

30:51a sewer interceptor. So it does not have

30:53to be at the treatment plants.

30:55>> Okay. Um,

30:56>> it could be a made what I understand is

30:58basically you drop a hose a hose loop

31:02into a sewer pipe that can be as long as

31:04it needs to be because it's just a sewer

31:06pipe and that's how you capture the

31:07thermal energy, right?

31:09>> I I think it might be a little more

31:10complex than that, but we could go, you

31:11know, you uh you basic you you put a

31:14heat exchanger in the pipe potentially

31:17or you pull the waste water out into

31:19another compound.

31:20>> Okay.

31:20>> Yeah.

31:21>> Okay. But Okay. Yes, sir.

31:24>> Mr. too. Um, and these seem to me make

31:28great sense to me.

31:29>> Oh, great.

31:30>> As everyone else, I suspect. However,

31:32uh, they're all on the north and east

31:34side of Marbor.

31:36>> There's not much on the west side of

31:37Marbor where we're having a lot of

31:39development these days. And we have some

31:41Fortune 500 companies on that side. Does

31:43it not make sense to not put all of our

31:46baskets in the all of our apples in the

31:48Boston scientific basket and open it up

31:50to other industries here in town? Uh, so

31:54I I recommend always exploring as many

31:56options as possible to figure out which

31:58one works best. Um, and if you want

32:01things on the west side of town, I think

32:03you have another treatment plant on that

32:04side. I I did not look at that one. I

32:07just, you know, so we we could look at

32:08that one instead.

32:09>> Would a feasibility study tell us the

32:12best

32:13path forward?

32:15uh uh yes potent you know and it depends

32:18you know feasibility studies uh would

32:20cost some money uh unless you did it

32:22through you know the D wastewater energy

32:25recovery grant so I mean and that's only

32:28for $15,000 so I just want to um so the

32:32bigger the feasibility study the more

32:34money the town might have to pay but it

32:37might be well worth it

32:39>> thank you thank you Mr. Chair

32:40>> Sure Mr. Yes.

32:43>> I'm curious about the end pro end side

32:45of it and that's how much disturbance in

32:48the streets would have to happen to pipe

32:50this to each individual house such as my

32:53neighborhood. They're going to be

32:54replacing gas lines. Wouldn't this be

32:56the appropriate time maybe to put in

32:59these pipes for future heat from these

33:03thermal energy units. But curious how

33:06that works and how big is the pipe? How

33:08much disturbance in the street? That

33:10type of situation. It's it's very

33:12similar to uh a gas pipe replacement

33:15what you're you know what you'll be

33:17going through it will be very similar if

33:19they if you had to drill bore holes that

33:21would be a different thing uh but that

33:23would generally be away from the house

33:25and in a parking lot nearby. Um so you

33:29know it's it's a it's a pipe maybe a

33:31little bit bigger than a gas pipe and

33:33instead of one service pipe going to

33:35your house you'd have a service loop a

33:36pipe going to your home and then coming

33:39one coming back. Um, and other than

33:41that, uh, it's about the same.

33:44And, uh, yes, of course, it's a great

33:46time to install.

33:47>> Well, that's why I was going to say, in

33:48other cities and towns like Denver or

33:51wherever you mentioned, Boise and so

33:53forth, have they utilized piping to the

33:57homes with other utilities when they

33:59were putting in their utilities, or is

34:01this something they had to put in

34:02themselves?

34:03>> Uh, the uh,

34:05>> just thinking of tearing up the streets

34:06more than once.

34:07>> Yeah. Gosh, who you never want to,

34:09right? limited chapter 90 funding, isn't

34:11it?

34:12>> Um, yeah. So, you always want to do uh

34:15do as many utilities, underground

34:17utilities as you possibly can. Uh, and

34:20Worcester has a cooperative uh paving

34:23program. I don't know if you've ever

34:24heard of it, where they have all the

34:26underground utilities tell them where

34:28they want to work over the next five

34:30years, and then they sequence them

34:32together.

34:33uh and it's allows the paving dollars to

34:36go uh you know 60% further. So I

34:41recommend you consider that. And Karen,

34:43you wanted to add

34:45>> just to say you could ask your gas

34:48utility what their plans are for the

34:50next four years and see where they are

34:52going to be planning to replace pipes

34:54because the electricity utilities have

34:58the option of putting money to what they

35:00call a nonpeline replacement which would

35:03be exactly this if they choose to rather

35:05than the millions of dollars per mile to

35:08replace the pipe. Um there are pros and

35:10cons of working with utilities as they

35:12know, but it certainly is another avenue

35:15to explor.

35:16>> Yes,

35:18>> you can see if there's overlap on any of

35:20these maps and Audrey has described

35:23other potential locations with the call

35:27gas system enhancement.

35:29So, I appreciated that explanation was

35:32really good, which is why I wanted you

35:34in front of a mic.

35:36Okay.

35:37>> Okay.

35:38>> So, yeah, the the gas utilities do

35:40replace pipes. They have funds to do

35:42that. They are allowed to instead

35:44install this kind of system

35:46>> as a replacement

35:47>> instead of a gas pipe replacement. Um,

35:51and

35:51>> even if it's not gas,

35:53>> if it's not gas, yeah, it's called a

35:54non-pipeline alternative. That's their

35:56term.

35:57>> Okay. uh and they can do this this type

36:00of system. Um

36:01>> even if they lose customers doing it,

36:04>> they uh it's a super complicated legal

36:07problem right now in the middle and and

36:09the Senate and the House and everybody's

36:11fighting and over it. So I'm I won't get

36:13into that one.

36:14>> Okay.

36:15>> But uh it's it should be clarified soon

36:17that legal issue.

36:19>> Mr. Chair.

36:20>> Yes.

36:20>> Thank you. I want to clarify something

36:23um again on how these work. So

36:29is it sim is it is it like you mentioned

36:31the airflow heat pumps that people have

36:32at their homes right is it is it similar

36:34to that regard in that it is

36:37it has capacity or has limits to the

36:40capacity for temperatures and whatnot

36:42will these will this completely replace

36:44somebody's home heating and cooling or

36:46will it kind of be like a dual fuel

36:49system will they will retain their own

36:52>> so the instead of having uh so first

36:56off. Air source heat pumps have, you

36:57know, if they're cold climate, they

36:59should be able to deliver all the

37:00heating and cooling you need, assuming

37:02your home, you know, you have the

37:04windows closed. Um, right, it's that

37:08should work at this point. They're very,

37:10very capable. But this system, uh, it

37:13has an easier time of it because when

37:15it's super cold or super hot outside,

37:19the water in the pipes down below, you

37:21know, in the ground is still the same

37:23temperature. It's not 100°. it's not

37:26zero degrees

37:27>> and so they the heat pumps connected can

37:29work at just perfect efficiency all the

37:32time delivering you the heating or

37:34cooling you need and uh in addition

37:37there is generally a backup heating and

37:40cooling system attached to the system so

37:43that you don't have to each customer

37:45doesn't have to have a backup the water

37:47pipe themselves has a backup on

37:50>> what is that what is that fueled by

37:52>> uh it can be fueled by gas or

37:54electricity or whatever. The Eversource

37:57one is electric.

37:58>> Got it. Okay.

37:58>> Uh and I Yeah. To Yeah. And there's many

38:01ways you can do it.

38:02>> Yep. That's helpful.

38:03>> And those are outages. That would

38:04effectively be an outage. Recovery from

38:06an outage,

38:07>> right?

38:07>> Uh it could it it could uh it could be

38:09many things. It could be like, you know,

38:11the something's gone terribly wrong,

38:15>> right?

38:15>> And uh you need to get the the water up

38:17to temperature again. There's that. The

38:20installation in Colorado Mesa has uh a

38:23gas boiler attached to it. In 15 years,

38:26they've never had to use the gas boiler

38:29>> to do that, but it's there as a

38:31supplemental backup system just in case.

38:34>> Yeah. And then my other question was um

38:37the communities you showed that had

38:38already done feasibility studies, I

38:40think it was Somerville, Lexington,

38:42Arlington, a couple other community,

38:44what are they doing now? I assume I

38:46don't know when they were completed, but

38:47kind of what is the takeaway for these

38:49communities?

38:50>> They're each confused about what the

38:52next step is. Um they're trying to

38:54figure out, you know, do they have the

38:57gas utility do it? Do they bring in a

38:59third party? Do they do it themselves?

39:01Where does the money come from? How do

39:04they govern it? etc. Yeah.

39:06>> And so, uh that is why exactly why Black

39:09Swan Lab is trying to help.

39:11>> Great. Thank you. And uh wait can I have

39:13Karen say something that might be

39:16>> so Mr. Chairman if Karen for the PD

39:19audience you got to come up otherwise

39:21it's not of any value.

39:22>> It's small issue it's very tiny. I was

39:24just going to say that um this is not so

39:27much an issue in Marboro I imagine but

39:29for many communities they don't have

39:31cooling and they're getting cooling for

39:34the first time with this system. So when

39:37we look at even the idea of a cost

39:38comparison, a lot of times they forget

39:40to factor in what does it cost to do air

39:42conditioning and the all that. So this

39:44is sort of a cooling and heating system

39:46especially double benefit for people

39:48that don't otherwise have cooling.

39:49>> Yes.

39:51>> One other thing um if I'm no basically

39:55it's not just heating and cooling but

39:56they'll also provide hot water. The

39:58system can also

39:59>> domestic hot water.

40:00>> Yes.

40:01>> So

40:03and correct me if I'm wrong. Let's go

40:04back to our our very famous uh skating

40:08ring that's going to

40:09>> Oh, yeah. There we go.

40:10>> That's going to supply 500 homes.

40:12>> 600. Yeah.

40:13>> 600 of homes. This is a system that goes

40:15through all the different homes. If

40:17there's a crack anywhere in that system

40:20where that water is not continuing now

40:23that we have 600 homes that don't have

40:25hot and cold, is that correct?

40:27>> Uh yes. Same same as if your uh an

40:31electric wire broke or a gas pipe broke.

40:35Yeah.

40:36>> So when the systems down, it affects

40:38everybody that's on the system.

40:39>> But that's also why there was a backup

40:41in Colorado that hasn't been used in 15

40:43years.

40:43>> Yes. But if there if there's something

40:44catastrophic, if a you know construct,

40:47you know, somebody's doing construction

40:48and they dig into a pipe, that pipe is

40:51out.

40:52>> Um they they generally have shut off

40:54valves. There's there's same sort of

40:55process as exists with gas and with

40:58electric only it's way less dangerous,

41:01right? You hit a gas pipe, there's

41:03trouble.

41:05>> Thank you.

41:05>> I mean, if we're we stand on New England

41:08Sports Center just for heating, um it

41:11could go up Bigalow Street, you know,

41:13and do the neighborhoods of Bigalow

41:15Street, which is the street that goes

41:16under 49 uh 290.

41:20>> Yeah, that one. um or go down Edge

41:24Boulevard and start doing the actual

41:26office buildings in there. And we're

41:29brokers, like we don't we buy it from

41:31New England Sports Center and we sell it

41:33to someone else, but we basically do

41:36thermal exchange broking. And I would I

41:39would state that this is an incredible

41:40economic development option because if

41:44done through the city, you know, you can

41:47tell people their energy bill for the

41:49next 50 years just pegged to inflation.

41:52You know what the operations and

41:54maintenance is. You know what the

41:55installation cost was. every business

41:58for the next 50 years would know what

42:00their heating and cooling bill would be,

42:02which would be one of the biggest ways

42:04you could help businesses, especially

42:06now. Um, it would be amazing.

42:10>> Mr. Chair, if I can.

42:11>> Yes.

42:12>> One of your biggest businesses was a

42:14very promising business when it was a

42:16mall. Malls are slowly starting to go

42:18away. My wife was down at the mall last

42:20week when it was very hot and they

42:22weren't running their air conditioning

42:23that well. They're trying to save cost.

42:26This would be a win-win if New England

42:29Sports Center could provide energy such

42:31as thermal energy to that mall because

42:33they're looking at variable options

42:36including housing and this would be the

42:38time to consider that type of situation

42:41if they go that route. Uh but and they

42:44got lots of parking area too. So, who

42:46knows backup wells and so forth. But

42:48yeah, you're right next to a place

42:50that's looking for help and this would

42:52be helpful to the mall. Well, I I agree

42:55that it could be helpful to the mall,

42:56but not necessarily from New England

42:58Sports Center because I see a whole

42:59bunch of customers between there and

43:01there. Yes. I mean, you know, this is

43:03this is a great photo because it shows

43:05New England Sport Center on one side and

43:07that big honking building on the other

43:08side is basically Salmon Pond Mall,

43:11>> but all that parking space could be made

43:13into a well fields that could then

43:16support going back. It's almost like a

43:18barbell effect, right? Exactly. You got

43:20one on one side and one on the other

43:22side feeding the middle. Um

43:24>> but

43:25>> yeah, you know, when it comes um you

43:28know, anything that could be done with

43:29New England Sports Center could be

43:31something of a um you know, restoration,

43:34low-income housing, all that as well.

43:36>> Great.

43:37>> Um

43:39so,

43:39>> thank you.

43:40>> Yeah, you're very welcome. Um

43:44any other questions at this point?

43:46>> Yes, Trey.

43:48>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just one quick

43:49question and I um was taking a look at

43:52that map that you'd referenced of the

43:53different um geothermal networks, the

43:55thermal energy networks, right? Um I

43:57found the the web link and um just

44:00looking I can't help but notice that

44:01there there are no other thermal energy

44:03networks currently in New England,

44:04right? A lot of them are district

44:06energy, which sounds like it's other

44:07renewables, correct me if I'm wrong, and

44:10then smaller geothermal networks. But

44:13you'd mentioned that Mass D has a grant

44:15for wastewater recovery specifically. Is

44:17there any such funding for like these uh

44:20the different borefield drilling sites,

44:22that sort of stuff? Because to me, it

44:23seems like what Framingham's doing is

44:25maybe a little bit more palatable,

44:27right? It's a lot smaller. I know

44:28they're still in, you know, in the in

44:30the pilot program. We're less than two

44:32years into the construction, but um or

44:35post construction, I should say, but is

44:37there any kind of funding for something

44:39like that rather than a full-scale

44:40thermal energy network?

44:42So, uh, you're asking is there any

44:45funding for just the bore holes part?

44:47>> Yeah, just because I think I think right

44:48I appreciate what we're talking about,

44:50but all of this would be a fullscale

44:52thermal energy network. It sounds like

44:54all all three of these sites that would

44:55be kind of the ad.

44:56>> And so, you're thinking more single

44:58building. I I'm not see I mean the map

45:01there's a few across the US like you

45:02referenced, but there's nothing in New

45:04England for this. We would be really

45:05kind of

45:06>> Oh, no. Smith Smith College has just

45:08finished it. Uh, Mount Holio did their

45:11entire has done is doing their entire

45:13campus uh um

45:15>> and that's a that's a thermal energy

45:17network. It's not to to me I got the

45:19impression that that was they're using

45:20existing renew renewables and stuff like

45:22that. No, they're they're doing a

45:23thermal

45:24>> they're doing uh bore holes. I think

45:26Mount Holio has a central plant so it's

45:29a slightly different model.

45:30>> Gotcha.

45:31>> Uh and they're doing it in three phases

45:33to interconnect. Okay. Uh I don't know

45:35as much about Smith College,

45:38>> but regardless, we're Yes, this would be

45:40cutting edge, but other people are kind

45:42of doing

45:42>> Yeah. more and and National Grid's also

45:44doing it in uh Dorchester. Um there are

45:47there are other installations in

45:48Massachusetts.

45:50>> Beverly is one as well. Just to add to

45:52your question about where's the money,

45:54um, this is not a done deal, but the

45:56current environmental bond bill that is

45:59going to be going to conference

46:00committee has $15 million for pretty

46:03much anything related to thermal energy

46:05networks,

46:06>> um, which could include, you know,

46:08grant. So, this would be it has to I

46:10it's $15 million grant. It's not a bond.

46:12So, if that makes it through

46:15>> the committee, we'll make sure you know

46:16about it so you can apply for some

46:18money.

46:19>> Thank you. Yeah. So, um, Mike, do you

46:22want to say anything?

46:23>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, so the the

46:27cases you've cited are all like Smith

46:31College, Holio College, they're all the

46:35one user. the concept of putting one in

46:39Malro. I now got to convince people

46:42andor commercial folks to change their

46:46current heating system to a geothermal

46:49system. Right. So hang on. So solar as

46:54councelor Ducet has told me and finally

46:57after years going that way I don't have

47:00an electricity bill but that was a

47:02$30,000 investment on my part which I

47:06won't see the payback in for five years

47:08>> y

47:08>> to do that. So, h how do I convince

47:12residential users, commercial, the West

47:15Union one? I just sent you all the case

47:18study. There's only 12 individuals or 12

47:21buildings hooked up to that, but they're

47:23all in there downtown and I'm assuming

47:25the downtown

47:27gang flex some muscle to say, "Okay, we

47:29all want to participate." How how how do

47:32you how do I go to a resident and say

47:34your neighborhood we want to make sure

47:36you all go on to geothermal that that's

47:39that is not an easy ask

47:41>> it I totally agree and so one of the

47:43greatest things we're working on the

47:45biggest problems is how to pay for the

47:47building retrofits if we can do that I

47:50think uh from the Eversource Framingham

47:52installation every customer they

47:55contacted except for one said yes so

47:59long as the building retrofits were paid

48:01for because they were getting cooling

48:03because they were getting their improved

48:05indoor air quality because

48:07>> but that was an important thing you just

48:09glossed over as long as it was being

48:10paid for by who?

48:12>> Yes. So that's the the critical thing.

48:14So right now with the inflation

48:17reduction act there is part of the thing

48:20the way to get that is to own the heat

48:22pump. Uh and so it's possible that the

48:25whoever installs it, if they include the

48:28heat pumps, which is a large portion of

48:31the cost of the building retrofits, they

48:33get more credit. They get more of a tax

48:36write off. Um so there's and then also

48:39with a municipality which has the you

48:42know the mandate to do public good if

48:44you did either revenue bonds for this

48:48you could your cost of capital would be

48:50so much lower in comparison to a gas

48:54utility. You could still give people

48:56lower energy bills and uh make back that

49:00money and the only people paying for it

49:02would be the people connected to the

49:03system. So, so it's interesting this

49:05West Union case study, they the city

49:08doesn't own their their

49:11utility, if you will. They rent it.

49:14>> So, you know, this there's still some

49:16work to be done.

49:18>> Oh, crazy amounts. I do not want to Yes.

49:20That's why we have the team to be able

49:22to help to let you choose the ways

49:24forward.

49:25>> But I think you've raised the biggest

49:26issue there is. And I I want to add to

49:30that because basically, you know, there

49:32is the federal uh funding through the

49:35IR, you know, IRA tax credit. Um there

49:38is state grants to help with payment. I

49:41do believe that we should be as a city

49:43doing tiffs for these types of projects.

49:46So there's three buckets of money that

49:48we can help fund it. there is a return

49:50on investment which even if it's five

49:53years after five years you're in the

49:55gravy as far as savings goes at the end

49:58you know I would hope that you know

50:01based upon what I analysis I've done is

50:05that you know this if if we do well let

50:10me phrase it any thermal exchange

50:13network should be locking in a price

50:15point for heating and cooling for 10

50:17years the for for the 10 years, which is

50:20effectively covering the cost of the

50:21bonds. So, from the financial side, if

50:24we know what the bonds costs are and

50:26we're getting a customer base, that

50:28should actually be enough to cover the

50:30bonds as we go forward. And then after,

50:33you know, after the 10-year contract's

50:36over, you see where we are in 10 years

50:38as far as price point goes. And

50:40hopefully, we're lower than what they

50:41came in at the beginning of the 10 years

50:43because as long as we're undercutting

50:45fossil fuels, which should be pretty

50:47easy, uh we're showing cost savings and

50:50the businesses will you know will look

50:53at that. I mean Boston Scientific is

50:55looking to do this on his own because

50:56they see the savings you know

50:59>> Mr. Chair if I may.

51:00>> Yes sir.

51:01>> I was just looking at again today and

51:03thank you councelor Austin for sharing

51:05your article. Councelor Roby shared an

51:08article with us from the Boston Globe on

51:10June 15th. It was about geothermal

51:13energy and pretty much speaks to what

51:15councelor Det just said is after those

51:18years go by of cost then you're as you

51:20said in the gravy but I'd say in the hot

51:23water or cool water but um that's a very

51:26interesting article. It was on June 15th

51:28that Sarah shared it with us from

51:30councelor Roby. I would suggest going

51:32back to that article. It was excellent

51:33about it was in the globe and it was

51:35about geothermal energy. talks about one

51:38of the uh universities I think

51:40Smithfield in Massachusetts. It was a

51:42very interesting pros and cons but spoke

51:45to the longterm effects and I thought

51:47that'd be helpful for this committee to

51:50keep on file. Yeah.

51:51>> Thank you, Mr. Chair.

51:52>> I mean just as as far as solar panels

51:54goes, I had solar panels installed 10

51:57years ago. I own them, okay, which is an

52:00important part of this. Um and yeah, I

52:03paid them off in seven years. It was a

52:05seven sevenyear 0% loan almost like a

52:09car. But after that and you know I I

52:12have a contract for SREx for 20 years.

52:14So I am making money off my solar panels

52:17right now.

52:19>> The volatility of gas bills. Has anyone

52:21noticed other than me? I mean I think we

52:24paid $900 in January or something for my

52:27home gas bills. I can't imagine what a

52:29business is paying if I'm paying $900.

52:31So I feel like as you said relative to

52:34fossil fuel costs it's really

52:36>> as long as we show a price point that's

52:37lower than that and part of the

52:39feasibility study is basically proving

52:41in within the feasibility study they

52:43would that can be done at a price point

52:45that makes it competitive against fossil

52:46fuels. So that's the end result of the

52:48fossil feasibility study. Um

52:53so

52:54thank you for for this presentation. My

52:56question to uh members of the committee,

53:00do we want to take an action to do a

53:04feasibility study just on um waste heat

53:09wastewater energy recovery as a

53:10feasibility study and say yes, Trey?

53:14>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I I guess I would

53:17I would encourage that we have the city

53:19go after this mass D grant funding for

53:22that wastewater recovery before kind of

53:24committing ourselves to any anything

53:26like that. I I wouldn't want to commit

53:28to a feasibility study without knowing

53:30what what funding we would have for it,

53:32right? Um, so I think, you know, it's

53:34encouraging to hear that there is, you

53:36know, grant funding out there for this

53:37kind of a project, but, um, I'm not

53:40sure. I don't know if Priscilla has kind

53:42of if you guys have talked about this

53:43before or um, if there's been an effort

53:45from the city to attain any of this

53:46funding. I'm not sure. I guess I

53:48>> not at this point. No, I was going to

53:50talk to Priscilla and, uh, Ted to come

53:53in and, uh, talk to us in the next

53:55meeting. So, um, but I think as, um, so

54:00just as far as the wastewater, uh, you

54:04know, uh, wastewater energy recovery,

54:06um, do you also agree in doing all those

54:09in favor and just getting a feasibility

54:11study just on wastewater recovery? Yes,

54:14sir.

54:15>> Mr. Chairman, you're not allowed to make

54:17a motion.

54:18>> Ah, do I Thank you very much for that

54:20correction. I appreciate that. So,

54:24go back to what you said at the

54:25beginning of the meeting. We need a

54:26couple one hour in. I'm not going to go

54:29commit funds or try to get funds for

54:30something I don't fully understand.

54:33>> My opinion. I'll let the committee

54:35decide what they want, but I'll tell you

54:36where I stand right now. There's still a

54:39little more work I think that's got to

54:40be done before I'm going to go commit

54:42any municipal resources to something

54:45that's not well understood yet. We only

54:48met for one hour. Mhm. Okay. Thank you.

54:53Okay.

54:55So,

54:56anyone interested in

54:59>> Yes.

54:59>> Uh Mark,

55:00>> thank you, Mr. Chair. I make a motion to

55:02explore the feasibil uh to explore

55:05funding sources for a feasibility study.

55:08>> Okay. For wastewater energy.

55:09>> Yes.

55:10>> Okay.

55:11>> Just to explore

55:13monies available for feas whether it's

55:15through our a conservation commissioner

55:18or through our DPW. Okay. Um,

55:21>> and utilizing black swan as well.

55:23>> Okay. Okay. Uh, I'll second that. All

55:27those in favor?

55:29>> Discussion.

55:30>> Oh, discussion first. Any discussion?

55:32Yes, Trey.

55:33>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just clarifying

55:35questions. Sorry. doesn't commit us to a

55:37feasibility study, but rather it kind of

55:39gives the intention that this this body

55:42would like to have folks come before us

55:43at our next meeting to address um you to

55:46kind of clarify some questions about

55:49>> what you know what the wastewater

55:51recovery feasibility study would look

55:52like and what funding sources there are

55:55for it,

55:55>> right? Which is which is different than

55:56the original proposal, which is why I'm

55:58asking for the vote, but yes.

56:00>> Sure.

56:00>> Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Okay. Um,

56:04okay then. All those in favor?

56:06Unanimous. All Okay. Um,

56:10okay. So, do you folks have anything

56:14else at this point? Are you

56:17>> I'm a teeny bit confused. What is your

56:19role in all this?

56:20>> We uh

56:22>> How do you get funding?

56:23>> We get funding from We get funding from

56:25foundations uh from the state, etc. to

56:29be able to help municipalities reduce

56:31their emissions and uh come up with

56:34practical solutions to provide people

56:36energy.

56:37>> Great. We're not paying for it. Welcome.

56:39>> Nope.

56:41>> Appreciate you guys showing up.

56:42>> Thank you so much.

56:43>> Yeah.

56:44>> Any question other should we

56:47>> stay nearby? But I think we're set for

56:49now. So

56:51>> thank you.

56:52>> Yeah, it's a good question too.

56:55>> Thank you.

56:55>> Okay. Um, so we we talked about having

57:00the next meeting in two weeks and I'll

57:02see if we can get uh Priscilla and Ted

57:04to show up, one or both if at all

57:06possible and talk about um a would be

57:10the best place to do wastewater energy

57:12recovery just because there is an open

57:14grant for that and then also talk about

57:17just doing the whole utility thing. So

57:20which you know the the conversation

57:23seems to be and even um

57:28was Eversource is doing Framingham?

57:30Eversource did Framingham.

57:31>> Yeah.

57:32>> They I heard someone describe it as

57:33saying they still don't know how to sell

57:35this stuff. So there's still lots of

57:37issues to be addressed.

57:39>> So So we'll have another meeting in two

57:42weeks. And yes sir.

57:45>> Make a motion to adjurnn.

57:47>> Motion seconded to adjurnn. All those in

57:48favor.

57:50Okay. We are adjourned at 5 8:05.

57:54Thank you very