2026-10-22 - Operations Committee

00:00Order, Madam Chair. Could you call the

00:01roll?

00:09Could you call the roll?

00:12Here.

00:15Here.

00:17Here.

00:19Thank you.

00:20Um great. So, uh thank you everybody for

00:22attending today.

00:23Um we are not discussing any legislation

00:26and there will be no votes called from

00:27members. We are What we are doing today

00:29is having a public discussion about

00:30ethics in government. Um as most folks

00:34know,

00:36uh by the way, I'm just going to set the

00:38table and run through how this all

00:39works, okay?

00:41Um as most people know, Cleveland is one

00:43of the poorest cities in America. We

00:44have roughly a 28% poverty rate,

00:47um which is over 100,000 people living

00:48in poverty. Um anyone who's ever lived

00:50in poverty can attest that the impacts

00:53uh on a person are dire. Uh it does

00:55alter your sense of self-worth. It

00:56lessens your worldview because there are

00:58aspects of society you simply can't

01:00afford to access. Uh you know, having

01:01lived in a trailer park as a kid and uh

01:04filing uh tax returns for about a dozen

01:06years under 14,000, I can attest

01:09firsthand to the impact that poverty has

01:11on a person.

01:12Um it is something you can truly feel.

01:15And the impacts of generational poverty

01:17in America are still being studied, but

01:18we know the outcome is not good.

01:20Uh it's a very common desire and

01:23possibly even a responsibility of

01:25elected officials to lessen or alleviate

01:27the effects of poverty. And you can sit

01:28down here with us if you like. Okay.

01:31It is

01:32uh uh uh

01:34uh

01:34It is a desire for a lot of elected

01:36officials to lessen or alleviate the

01:37impacts of poverty. And one popular way

01:39on a local level to do this is with

01:40direct financial aid, often in the forms

01:42of a food card, a $25 or $50 Dave's

01:45card, for example. Um

01:47Australian ethicist Peter Singer is well

01:49known for promoting the idea of the

01:50ethical framework that reducing

01:52suffering is a good thing. Um it's

01:55actually in fact one of the best good

01:56things you can do. And so surely for

01:58somebody with very little money, $50

02:00food card can lessen their suffering on

02:02some level for some time at least. It's

02:04also worth noting that nearly every

02:06religious tradition on Earth promotes

02:07charity and kindness uh to the poor as a

02:10good thing. In fact, it's a driving

02:12motivation for many people when they

02:13consider running for public office in

02:15the first place.

02:17So, in the other corner is a

02:19long-running history in America of

02:20political corruption.

02:21Uh politicians use their power to access

02:23public funds and spend them in ways that

02:25advance their political careers,

02:27um benefiting those close to them or in

02:29some examples just straight-up bribing

02:31voters.

02:32Uh this history is so well understood in

02:34the US that uh many of the 90 million

02:36people who never ever ever vote will

02:38tell you it's because, quote and quote,

02:40"They're all crooks."

02:41All right.

02:42The general public's inability or

02:44unwillingness to trust government is

02:45rooted in well-documented cases of

02:47public corruption. Uh the law department

02:49at City Hall has long been concerned

02:51about gift cards should they appear too

02:52close to bribery or corruption in the

02:54public eyes. Um and it cannot be

02:56forgotten, honestly, that uh three

02:57members of this body have been sentenced

02:59to prison just this century, and two of

03:00them were for misallocation of public

03:02funds.

03:03Uh so, the consequences for us are very

03:05real.

03:06And while we have conversations about

03:08this at City Hall all the time, we

03:10rarely have them publicly,

03:12um and nor would I expect this subject

03:13to get a lot of interest unless it does

03:15turn into a court case. Uh but then

03:17something rather incredible happened on

03:18September 9th of this year. The sitting

03:20president of the United States on

03:22national television, I think he was in

03:23Dallas,

03:24um promised every American $5,000

03:27from the federal government if the

03:28Republican Party wins in November.

03:30Um

03:31to And before anybody could say that

03:33this was a misstep or misquote or an

03:35unintentional statement, Bernie Moreno,

03:37who is actually the senior senator from

03:39Ohio, promised that evening to draft the

03:41legislation ensuring that those checks

03:44would go out, just doubling down

03:45immediately before the day was even

03:47over. In fact, uh payments to roughly

03:4970,000 Ohioans have actually already

03:50been paid for another reason, uh

03:53something to do with uh medic-

03:55uh Obamacare, but uh from Trump for a

03:57different reason. And uh the point is

04:00that money from the federal government

04:01is being mailed to voters right now with

04:03an active and consequential election

04:05underway.

04:06Uh the two most common statements I

04:07heard about this are how is it legal and

04:09how can I get mine?

04:12Uh so the question before us is this.

04:15When are politicians helping people and

04:18when are we bribing them?

04:20Clearly the Constitution requires us to

04:22provide for the general welfare.

04:24Uh but we also clearly frown upon

04:26political corruption. So what is the

04:27difference between helping a person and

04:29buying their favor?

04:30Uh as a follow-up to that question, if

04:32we are to identify the difference,

04:34uh is it the legislative branch's job to

04:37elect guardrails to prevent abuse of

04:38public coffers or is it the job of the

04:40executive branch, via law enforcement,

04:42to monitor our behavior and let a court

04:46and the judge in the judicial branch

04:48settle it if there is a a a concern?

04:51Um I'm pleased to welcome four guests to

04:54City Hall this morning. Each is an

04:55expert in the field of law, history, or

04:57ethics and none are entangled in work

04:59with the city. I think I clarified that.

05:01None of you have contracts or none of

05:02you are working for the city of

05:03Cleveland under any capacity. Okay.

05:05Uh

05:07Uh da da da

05:09Yeah, so I'm going to introduce

05:10everybody now and then review the

05:11process for the hearing itself. So each

05:13guest is going to have 10 minutes to

05:14talk on subjects at hand from their

05:15professional perspective. We're going to

05:17start with Professor history Professor

05:19uh

05:20Ain off Ain off Rabinovich Rabinovich

05:22Fox from Case Western Reserve who's

05:23going to discuss the history of

05:24political corruption in the in in the US

05:27in 10 minutes.

05:28>> [laughter]

05:29>> Uh following her will be Professor Kelly

05:30Couble from Baldwin Wallace discussing

05:33uh

05:33the ethical conflict we've just

05:34described, public good versus public

05:36protection. He'll be followed by

05:38Professor Abigail Moncrief from CSU

05:41Marshall College of Law who has an

05:42expertise and I [music] believe in

05:43ethics of public policy. And then

05:45rounding us out will be Jeremy

05:47Bendik-Keymer, the Professor of

05:48Philosophy and Faculty Senate Chair at

05:50Case Western. Uh he's going to discuss

05:52good relationships in governance.

05:54Uh I'll keep interjections to a minimum

05:56only to clarify if there's some

05:57confusion about something somebody said.

06:00Uh after everybody's had an opportunity

06:01to share thoughts, I will open in to my

06:03colleagues on the Operations Committee

06:04for about 10 minutes each. We'll defer

06:06to Council President Griffin first.

06:08We'll then proceed in length of service

06:10uh to Dean Palen sick, Councilman

06:11Conwell when he arrives, and

06:13Councilwoman House Jones when she

06:14arrives, and I'll bring up the rear. Uh

06:16that should take us to about 11:30,

06:1711:40, or so. Uh at that time,

06:19colleagues who are not members of the

06:20committee will have about 5 minutes to

06:21ask questions. Uh and if there are more

06:23colleagues than time allows, I will

06:25divide the remaining time by uh the

06:28number of colleagues in the room.

06:31Thanks.

06:32Um we do need to wrap up on time. Uh I

06:35do understand that people have other

06:36obligations today. I want to respect

06:38each of you

06:39uh um

06:40for making the time to join us at all uh

06:42and ensure by I will respect you by

06:44ensuring that we get out of here by

06:45noon. Um so, there will be a hallway

06:47outside if people want to carry over

06:48discussions and keep talking. Um to the

06:50best of my knowledge, this is the first

06:52time City Council has ever held a public

06:53hearing to discuss ethics in government.

06:55I don't know that we've ever done this

06:57publicly um to bring this discussion

06:59into the light, um but we are joined by

07:02some other folks, uh and I want to thank

07:04you all for being here as well. We are

07:06uh broadcasting this uh for TV 20 and

07:09for YouTube's posterity. Uh I look

07:11forward to the conversation. I'm going

07:13to keep a timer

07:14um at 10 minutes just so that we uh

07:17don't lose track of where we are, um but

07:19that is the extent of my statements.

07:22Thank you all for being here.

07:24Uh Professor Rabinovich Fox, I believe

07:26you're up first.

07:36Oh, I'm I apologize. You must turn on a

07:39microphone and speak into it with your

07:41outdoor voice cuz otherwise, the

07:42microphones will not pick you up, and

07:44this will not be recorded for posterity.

07:47>> Apologies.

07:49Um so, yes, good morning. Thank you.

07:51>> You you know, it's you Yeah, you need to

07:53sort of like uh

07:55uh hold the mic

07:55>> Okay, we'll do that then.

07:57>> [laughter]

07:57>> Yeah. Yeah.

07:59>> Um so, the history uh the topic of the

08:02history of of corruption in Francia Lee

08:04is a very vast one.

08:07Uh we can be here all day, but for the

08:10interest of time, I will uh try to keep

08:13it to the highlights.

08:16Um, I want to focus only on a few cases

08:18that will show us not just how uh the

08:21idea of corruption has changed over

08:23time, but also how people addressed it

08:26and tried to fix it. Um, so as said, um

08:29unfortunately uh government corruption

08:32or even is not a product of modern time.

08:35It is something that is very ingrained

08:38to our political system. Um, so I guess

08:41the good news is like things are not

08:44necessarily getting worse.

08:46Um, but uh both the definition of

08:48corruption and the nature of it has

08:51changed as our government has changed

08:53and expanded um from colonies to

08:56independence, local, state, federal

08:58level.

08:59>> [music]

08:59>> Um, these all change over the years and

09:02how we elect those governments have

09:04changed over the years and so the

09:07form of corruptions have changed over

09:09years. Um, and one could argue that

09:12corruption is kind of like even built-in

09:15feature into government and especially

09:17uh elected government. Um, because

09:20everything that has to do with power

09:22also has to do with its abuses. Um, so

09:26that was something that was very clear

09:29to the founding fathers and the framers

09:31of the Constitution who were very weary

09:34uh uh from the possibility of one person

09:37getting too much power,

09:39right? And to abuse the system. And they

09:43framed that Constitution and wrote this

09:45Constitution with that very much in

09:47mind, um operating that every power

09:50corrupts. Um, there's no good man among

09:53us and no one is

09:56uh

09:57shielded from that. And the Constitution

10:00framers really divided a system that

10:02really prevent one entity from achieving

10:05too much power. Whether or not it works,

10:08that's a different conversation.

10:11But the the idea of bribery does appear

10:16in the Constitution.

10:18The framers also included the moment

10:20clause Article 1 Section 9, which

10:23probably Abigail will know better than

10:26me

10:27that prohibits any public officer

10:30official to receive gifts or to benefit

10:33from office.

10:34But if the Constitution specifically

10:37mentions bribes and corruption,

10:40what consists corruption? What is

10:43corruption really changed over the years

10:45as the norms change?

10:48And what today in today's standard might

10:51have now we consider corruption might

10:54not be illegal or even a questionable

10:57thing

10:58a hundred years ago.

11:00This is the case with our own very first

11:03president George Washington. Who

11:06even before

11:08he became president in 1755

11:12he tried to get elected to the House of

11:14Burgesses in Virginia and failed because

11:17he didn't pay enough booze to buy booze

11:21alcohol for the constituent because that

11:23was the way you get elected in those

11:27days. In 1758

11:30he got elected because he spent 39

11:33pounds and six shillings which is about

11:36$8,000 today to secure the 331

11:41votes that he needed. So

11:44the more booze you buy that's how you

11:48get elected apparently.

11:50And that was fine like that today we

11:52would think about it as corruption but

11:55that's apparently how things work.

11:59But government corruption is not just

12:01about buying votes, right? It's also

12:04about creating a system where some

12:06people benefit

12:08more than others due to connections to

12:11power. So in the decades before and

12:13after its Civil War,

12:16uh this took the form of the spoil

12:18system,

12:19uh that first enacted by Andrew Jackson,

12:22uh but really became more famous um or

12:25at least on the local level with um New

12:28York City and Tammany Hall, which was

12:32um a society that was

12:34uh

12:35uh

12:36intended to help uh the people who

12:39belonged to Tammany Hall by giving them

12:41contracts and jobs and protections um

12:44and and support in right in uh

12:49for votes. Um and especially in New York

12:52City, um even though that kind of like

12:55rise of political machines that was um

12:58kind of like quid pro quo

13:01uh type of relationship was very famous

13:04in New York City, it did um expand it to

13:06other cities in the country. Um

13:09the New York City because of being the

13:12largest city back then and a port city,

13:15so hence uh controlling the custom

13:19uh

13:20uh offices, right, had a lot of way

13:23wiggle room to uh

13:26to kind of like benefit both the both

13:28the bosses, but also the political

13:31candidate that were affiliated with

13:34Tammany Hall in favor of jobs. Um

13:39and uh again, New York New York corrupt

13:42machine really uh spread to municip uh

13:45municipal politics uh and because New

13:48York was a big city, they also had um

13:52influence on electing uh

13:55state and federal uh offices because of

13:59their political power. Uh this was the

14:01case um

14:03with uh in the Gilded Age in 1980 in

14:061880, sorry, with James Garfield.

14:09>> [music]

14:09>> Um that was actually a a case that shows

14:12that even if you do have a lot of

14:14political power and political machine,

14:16you can't do everything. [music]

14:19Um so, James Garfield, our own

14:22uh from Ohio, uh was nominated as the

14:26Republican nominee back then uh

14:29uh

14:30can presidential candidate were

14:32nominated, they were not elected via

14:34primaries. Um

14:37and he was elected not he was not the

14:40Tammany Hall candidate uh but he was

14:44able to become a president. His VP,

14:46Chester Arthur, uh was the Tammany Hall

14:49candidate and he was supposed to be kind

14:51of like the man that will uh take care

14:55of all the rest. Um after Garfield's

14:58assassination uh by a disgruntled civil

15:02um

15:03uh Charles Guiteau, who was like trying

15:06to get a job, right? Because he voted

15:09for and supported Garfield and when that

15:12didn't happen because Garfield really

15:14tried to clean the system, he

15:16assassinated um

15:19Garfield and then uh people think, "Oh,

15:23maybe the spoil system is a problematic

15:26system. Maybe we shouldn't do that." Um

15:28and to say in favor of Chester Arthur,

15:31um even though he was a Tammany Hall

15:33kind of like candidate, he took his role

15:36as a president now a very seriously and

15:39he really

15:41uh pushed for um in 1883, he signed the

15:45Pendleton Civil Service Reform Act into

15:48law that really prevents um

15:52political appointments in the civil

15:53service and goes to professional uh

15:56right? That all those positions would be

15:59uh

16:00hand on on merit and professional uh

16:03requirements, not connections. Um this

16:07kind of like uh really moved the

16:09professional uh civil service system

16:12um

16:13pretty much until like 2 years ago, uh

16:16the Trump administration gutted

16:18important parts of it,

16:20uh but uh

16:22that idea that right, government and

16:26people who work for the government

16:28should not do it just because they voted

16:30for that government, but because they

16:31have professional

16:33um experience and skills, this really

16:35narrowed the path of political

16:38corruption. However, it doesn't mean

16:40that it solved everything, as you uh can

16:43imagine. Uh the Pendleton Act only

16:46applied to the federal government, so uh

16:48local and state governments still capped

16:51with their actions.

16:52Um and as both the economy and the uh

16:56government expended um in the 19th

16:59century, uh so too corruption scandals.

17:03Um mainly again in the 19th century,

17:06we're mainly talking about railroad and

17:08land speculations in the West. Uh in the

17:111920s, it's about oil reserves contract,

17:14the Te- teapot dome uh scandal that was

17:18about Okay, I will wrap it up. Um as I

17:21said, I can be here very

17:24Good stuff. Yes, today we can talk about

17:27tech billionaires, AI technology, seven

17:30in the '70s, we had campaign issue with

17:34Spiro Agnew and the Watergate scandal

17:36that also uh brought with them

17:40um

17:41uh

17:42again,

17:43as we see for corruption, people also

17:45react to corruption by legislation.

17:49Um and really the way best way to fight

17:52to fight corruption is through creating

17:55transparent, independent system that are

17:57based on public oversight, clear rules,

18:01not personal favors or political

18:03affiliation. We have it in the

18:05progressive era with Theodore Roosevelt,

18:08um who is uh

18:10not only does the anti-cor- uh trust uh

18:14act, but really um uh

18:17pushing the first um law that uh

18:19prohibits

18:21um

18:22uh uh uh

18:23uh

18:24corporation to uh yes, to uh contribute

18:28to political campaigns, which of course

18:30with Citizen United also went on fire.

18:33Uh

18:34but um

18:36but as history um

18:38shows us uh right, Americans uh

18:41don't like uh corruptions and they don't

18:44like the representatives being corrupt.

18:47And when there is enough public anger,

18:51um

18:52the government do change and do resolve.

18:54So, like yes, it is a built-in factor

18:58and yet um

19:00I think history does show us that

19:02>> [music]

19:03>> it's not an absolute power, right? So,

19:06corruption can be maintained and can be

19:09curtailed when we create um again uh

19:14equal system policies that do not uh

19:18based on a person, but kind of like

19:22based on a system and based on

19:25transparency and law and guardrails uh

19:29that are enacted according to clear

19:31criteria and not to kind of like where

19:35you live or what's your name or who

19:37you're voting for. Um so, I'll stop

19:40here, but as I said, we can

19:42>> Thank you, Athena.

19:43I I think one of the things you're

19:44saying is that the founders expected

19:46political corruption because power has

19:48that effect on people. And so, it was

19:49expected that we were going to have to

19:51address this for the course of our

19:53governance. Um amongst many other

19:55things, we'll come back to you. Thank

19:56you, I'm sure when we get to the

19:57questions. Uh do you want to just keep

19:59moving through uh the agenda. Uh I will

20:02um run a 10-minute clock and I'll just

20:04show it to y'all so that we can try cuz

20:06I I do we're on schedule right now, but

20:08I I I next [music] is uh Professor Kelly

20:10Cobble. Uh Cobble. Cobble.

20:12>> Cobble.

20:12>> Cobble. Cobble. Okay. Uh from Baldwin

20:14Wallace, uh Professor Beth Cobble can

20:16talk about

20:18when is helping hurting?

20:21>> Yeah, um so yeah, I uh by training I'm

20:25sort of a Kantian. So,

20:28you know, we call that deontology. Focus

20:30on principles

20:32rather than just consequences. You were

20:35mentioning Peter Singer, the utilitarian

20:37philosopher who focuses

20:38on consequences. But consequences matter

20:41to deontologists, too, of course. And

20:45the other thing I want to say is,

20:46although I'm a Kantian by training, by

20:49instinct I'm a nominalist and even a

20:52moral particularist. And so, I try to

20:55really understand the context of a of

20:58the question I'm asked. So, a lot of

21:00this is me trying to get up to speed

21:02about what the context of the question

21:06is. So, you're not going to get much

21:07philosophy and

21:10there will also be probably

21:12opportunity after I'm finished to

21:14correct all the inaccuracies of my

21:17understanding of sort of this context,

21:19okay? So, uh,

21:22uh, thanks for inviting me here and um,

21:26it seems like there were two two

21:27questions that

21:29um,

21:30Chairman Harsh posed in our in our

21:33preliminary discussions

21:36regarding the practice of distributing

21:38these food cards. So, I'm going to be

21:39asking about about this and and seeing

21:42if we can get clarity on the ethics of

21:44distributing the food cards in

21:45particular, right? So, um, you know,

21:48going back to this general question of

21:52connections to power and uh, the

21:54privileges that that can confer and the

21:56corruption that that implies, what

21:58distinguishes helping people in need

22:00from buying votes in this case? And then

22:03there was that question that I'm really

22:04not going to address about the role of

22:06the legislature versus allowing the

22:08courts to figure out what what the what

22:11the law

22:12means here. So, I I agree that getting

22:15clarity on the ethics of distributing

22:17the grocery cards

22:18is is urgent and it's just becoming

22:21increasingly urgent as as we reflect on

22:24the consequences of the one big

22:27beautiful bill act and its effect on for

22:29example snap, right? So uh in Ohio

22:33additional eligibility restrictions were

22:35imposed in November 2025.

22:38There was an expanded work requirements

22:41uh regime that began in March and uh of

22:45course we're seeing the reduced federal

22:46support for snap um that took effect

22:49this month, right? And and more of the

22:51the bene the costs associated with snap

22:55are being shifted over to states in

22:57October. So even a $25 or $50 grocery

23:01card can provide meaningful short-term

23:03relief in this uh context. So

23:07I'm going to try to clarify what I think

23:09is is the ethical legitimacy of this

23:13practice, but also the importance of

23:15following a a a process that ensures

23:19that legitimacy.

23:20Um um because corruption is a problem,

23:23but so also is the the bad optics. Uh if

23:27people think that it's corrupt, that's

23:29almost as bad in some ways as if it

23:31actually is corrupt because it's a

23:33democracy and and what the public

23:35perceives is is of critical importance.

23:37So

23:39um

23:40you know, helping constituents

23:42um is is not the same thing as buying

23:46votes even if one of your motives in

23:48helping constituents is to get

23:50re-elected, right? Um so here in

23:53Cleveland council members have helped

23:56finance a new playground at Impett Park,

23:58approved funding for the Meijer grocery

24:01store project in Fairfax,

24:03uh and supported neighborhood

24:04improvements uh in Kinsman. Um and

24:08residents who appreciate and value those

24:10projects might reward these uh council

24:13members at the ballot box. And again,

24:15that's kind of what representative

24:16democracy is about. So corruption and

24:19expenditures that generate political

24:21goodwill aren't simply um synonymous.

24:24Um Ohio law does prohibit certain

24:27transfers of money or other things of

24:29value in connection with elections,

24:31including payments intended to induce

24:33voting behavior.

24:35Um

24:36that legal prohibition doesn't fully

24:37resolve the sort of ethical distinction

24:40though between

24:41uh

24:42officials earning political support

24:44through legitimate allocations of public

24:46funds, right, to address uh constituents

24:49in need from officials using those funds

24:52to confer personal favors

24:55that invite political obligations. So,

24:58taking Chairman Harsh's example, why is

25:00it okay for Council to fund a food

25:02pantry, but maybe not um to provide

25:05grocery cards?

25:07Um I don't see the ethical difference.

25:09Uh uh So, the grocery cards are arguably

25:12even um maybe a better option in many

25:15cases. They preserve dignity and choice,

25:18so they help preserve the agency of of

25:20these individuals, uh

25:22which is an important

25:24uh ethical value uh in a lot of

25:27philosophical theory. And maybe it's

25:30reducing some of the administrative cost

25:33associated with food pantries as well.

25:35It's a very efficient way to uh

25:37distribute um

25:38food uh aid.

25:40Um but there is the question of

25:44going back to the issue of power and

25:46corruption, um there is the question of

25:48how do people become eligible, who

25:50controls the distribution, and how

25:52transparent is the process, right? So,

25:56um

25:58So, uh

25:59uh Council President Blaine Griffin, as

26:01I understand it through reporting, um

26:04stated in July, and this was in res-

26:07uh this was in response to the auditor's

26:10uh June 2025

26:13uh letter uh um

26:15uh

26:16uh Keith Faber's letter in the auditor

26:19in which he sort of said some things

26:21about this uh card distribution

26:24um process and made recommendations

26:27about that process to ensure

26:30uh

26:31uh

26:31you know, that it's it's being done

26:33properly.

26:34Uh according to uh the council

26:36president, as I as I understand it, um

26:38there is an established process

26:40associated with the uh

26:42um grocery cards that the council

26:44members decide um how much money to

26:47spend on them for their for their wards,

26:50but then it's the city's Department of

26:52Community Development that contracts

26:54with the nonprofit um who's then charged

26:57with administering the cards, and the

26:59nonprofits are the ones who ensure that

27:03the recipients satisfy the eligibility

27:05and the residency uh requirements.

27:08Um and if when they do, then the people

27:11receive these cards, and after the cards

27:13have been distributed, then those

27:15nonprofits are supposed to seek

27:17reimbursement, uh right?

27:19>> That's the process.

27:21>> That's the process, right? So, the

27:23process has not always been followed

27:25adequately, right? And that's kind of uh

27:28part of the issue here. That's why

27:29That's what the auditor uh was pointing

27:31out in that June 25 letter. There were

27:34about 1,500 um total uh in two wards

27:38missing or incomplete eligibility forms.

27:42Um there were 88 cards issued to people

27:44with addresses outside of Cleveland. Uh

27:47and in many cases, the documentation was

27:49completed only after the nonprofits had

27:52already been reimbursed. And then there

27:54was the issue with the

27:56Ward 1 council person's

27:59a situation where um staff in his office

28:02uh distributed some leftover cards

28:04themselves, which violates the process.

28:07It's only supposed to be the nonprofits.

28:09Um so, there were there were these these

28:11issues where um the process wasn't being

28:14followed uh regularly, right? So, um

28:19I don't think at at any at any point

28:21here

28:23was do we have evidence of actual

28:25corruption. There's, you know, um a

28:29process that's not being followed

28:30religiously. Um

28:32it would be, you know, better if the

28:34process were followed really religiously

28:37just to avoid even the appearance in the

28:39public's eye of some form of corruption.

28:42Um there was also the issue um

28:45of the law department's interpretation

28:48of um the auditor's letter and um now

28:51I'm referring to

28:53uh

28:54reporting about um

28:56Council Person House Jones. So, you can

28:59correct me if if this is inaccurate, but

29:01uh uh the law department interprets

29:04the the uh auditor's letter as saying

29:07that council people should not even be

29:09attending events at which these cards

29:12are being distributed.

29:15Because there's something funny about

29:17that in some way. Uh

29:19as I understand it, uh Council Person

29:21House Jones asked the auditor directly,

29:24"What what what did you mean when you

29:26said that council people should not be

29:29distributing the cards?" Or um

29:33And he meant just that, that they

29:34shouldn't be distributing the cards. He

29:36didn't mean that they shouldn't be

29:37attending various events in their ward

29:40where cards are being distributed. So,

29:43what do I think about that? Does the law

29:44department have a point? Is this is this

29:47a bad idea? I I don't I don't think that

29:50it is. I think that it's fully

29:51defensible to for council people to

29:53attend these parties. If the optics are

29:56a little funny or if people are

29:57misinterpreting this, then we just need

30:00to find a way to provide better clarity,

30:03um better communications about how the

30:04process actually works.

30:07Um so, that people understand that the

30:09council people are not directly

30:11uh distributing these these cards. So,

30:15uh

30:17I would um and and by the way, uh

30:20council people of course can take

30:21political credit for these programs

30:24because again, uh that's how democracy

30:26works. So, uh I can can I conclude

30:29really quickly? So,

30:31um

30:32So, the process described by the council

30:34president seems great to me, but it

30:37needs to be

30:38uh you know, followed religiously. I

30:40don't know how that works in terms of

30:43implementation. How do we ensure that

30:45that process is being followed better?

30:48And and maybe the public, if it's

30:49possible, needs to have a better

30:50understanding of exactly how this

30:52process works. Um I don't know how that

30:55can be made more public.

30:57Um

30:59uh and and that's really about it. The

31:01only other issue that I

31:03would would acknowledge here is

31:06you know, the the the safeguards and the

31:08documentation to ensure that the process

31:11is legitimate needs to be proportionate.

31:14Um

31:15uh a few $25 grocery cards should not

31:18require so much paperwork

31:21that in the end of the day the cards are

31:22never distributed. So, that there is

31:24that issue, too.

31:25Um I think that's all I had. Thanks.

31:28Thank you.

31:31>> I appreciate uh all of that. Uh we're

31:33just going to keep moving and then we're

31:34going to open it up uh to to everybody

31:36else. I'm sure we'll have some some some

31:38lively questions. Uh up next uh

31:40Professor Abigail Moncrieff, uh CSU

31:43College of Law. Um

31:46Professor, sure. Floor is yours.

31:47>> All right. Uh

31:49so, let me start uh using Katie

31:51Zickelgraff as my object lesson by

31:52saying I do not have a license to

31:54practice law. I am not an attorney and

31:56nothing that I say should be construed

31:57as legal advice. Um I am merely a law

32:00professor.

32:01Um and uh I'm also not a Kantian.

32:04Um very much a utilitarian.

32:06Uh

32:07so, uh

32:08so, we have there are the legal question

32:11here is um

32:13I think clear

32:15but not because the law is clear

32:19but rather because there's a distinction

32:21that matters but is hard to enforce. So,

32:23let me walk you through why I think

32:25that's true. So, we have statutes on the

32:26books at both the national and state

32:28levels uh that prohibit exchanging money

32:31for votes.

32:32Um the national statute is 18 U.S.C.

32:36section 597 that says whoever makes or

32:38offers to make an expenditure to any

32:40person either to vote or withhold his

32:42vote or to vote or for or against any

32:45candidate shall be fined under this

32:47title.

32:48And the Ohio statute is Ohio Revised

32:51Code Section 3599.01

32:54which says no person shall before,

32:56during, or after any primary convention

32:58or election give, lend, offer, or

33:02procure or promise to give, lend, offer,

33:04or procure any money, office, position,

33:06place or employment, or any other

33:08valuable consideration

33:10to or for an elector. Uh

33:13in exchange for a vote. So, the law says

33:16you're not allowed to pay people to vote

33:18for you.

33:19Does giving them a welfare benefit of

33:22any kind, whether that be a food card or

33:25a tax break or social security check

33:29in exchange for a vote violate that law?

33:33If you do it literally with the

33:35intention of getting their vote so that

33:39you get more power for your personal

33:41gain, it probably does violate the law.

33:44If you do it because you genuinely

33:46believe that that is the best policy for

33:49the city as a whole or for the country

33:51as a whole or for the state as a whole,

33:53then it probably doesn't violate that

33:55policy that statute. So, how do we know

33:58whether you're doing it in exchange for

34:01a personal power and an elected position

34:04or whether you're doing it because you

34:06genuinely think that it is the best

34:08policy for your community as a whole.

34:09So, are you doing it for

34:12public welfare or are you doing it for

34:13personal gain? That is an internal

34:16subjective state that is very hard to

34:19observe from the outside. Like, what's

34:21your motivation for offering this uh

34:23policy or for running on this policy?

34:27Law confronts this problem all the time.

34:30We have all kinds of uh laws throughout

34:34the legal codes that turn on internal

34:37subjective states.

34:39Did you intend to murder somebody? That

34:42determines whether you've committed

34:44first-degree murder or involuntary

34:45manslaughter.

34:47And determines how long you're going to

34:48stay in jail. And so then we have tools

34:52for trying to figure this out. We ask

34:53you to testify and we try to figure out

34:56whether you're lying or not. We have

34:58other people

35:00testify about your character to figure

35:02out whether you're lying or not when

35:03you're at in a trial being tried for

35:05these kinds of offenses.

35:06But fundamentally, it is actually

35:09difficult to tell. So

35:11So this is part of the reason that we

35:12have an entire history of

35:14under-enforcement of these laws.

35:17Um

35:18part of the problem is that

35:21it's they're hard to prosecute. They're

35:23very it's very hard to figure out

35:24whether people

35:26are are offering policies for personal

35:29gain or out of a genuine belief

35:34that the policy will promote welfare.

35:36That said, um

35:39I think that this is an area where when

35:40you're talking about food cards versus

35:44Trump's offer to pay voters $5,000 if

35:46they vote for him, where we can use the

35:48same kind of approach that Justice

35:50Potter Stewart famously announced for

35:52distinguishing between hardcore and

35:54regular pornography.

35:55You know it when you see it.

35:57And so like we do have intuitions about

36:00what the difference is between a bribe

36:03and a policy proposal.

36:06And

36:07and and we can we we can as voters

36:11choose not to elect corrupt politicians

36:14who are trying to bribe us for their

36:16votes for our votes. And we can try to

36:20prosecute some of those individuals who

36:22do that, too. But I want to I want to

36:23raise one last um

36:26significant legal problem

36:30with prosecuting bribery. So I guess

36:33part of what I want to say to you guys

36:34is I wouldn't worry about sending out

36:35food cards. It's very hard to Even if

36:37you were doing it to try to lure the

36:38voters, it would be hard to prosecute

36:40you for it because I think there is a

36:42very good case that this is for the

36:44welfare of the community and not because

36:46you're trying to retain power. Um so,

36:50you know, so I think

36:51because the law kind of errors on the

36:53side of under enforcement, I wouldn't

36:55spend a lot of sleepless nights worrying

36:57about whether you've run a foul of the

36:58bribery statutes.

37:00And then the other piece of this that

37:02makes things very difficult and I think

37:04makes things particularly difficult in

37:05the context of what we're witnessing

37:07with the like $5,000 payments from Trump

37:10um is that there's also immunity for

37:14public officials and the court has

37:16recently expanded immunity for the

37:19president. [music]

37:20Uh the Supreme Court has recently

37:21expanded presidential immunity and said

37:23that presidential immunity applies to

37:26all official acts and does not apply to

37:28personal acts. So, the same distinction

37:31that we I was just describing in terms

37:33of public policy versus personal gain

37:36should dictate the distinction between

37:38official acts and personal acts. If

37:40President Trump is off- ering $5,000

37:42payments because he thinks that it's

37:44good public policy and he's proposing a

37:46statute out of a legitimate legislative

37:49desire to give everybody $5,000

37:52then it's an official act. He's

37:54announcing a policy platform that he

37:56wants to try to push through Congress.

37:59But if he's doing it as a campaign

38:01strategy to try to get people to vote

38:03for him, then he's no longer acting in

38:05his official capacity as president of

38:06the United States and is now acting as a

38:09candidate for president and that's a

38:11private act rather than an official act.

38:14But again

38:15these distinctions are flimsy and they

38:17de- they depend on on internal mind

38:21states that are very difficult to prove.

38:24And um and so the you know, the

38:27the ability to prosecute and to overcome

38:30an argument of immunity is limited by

38:35the nature of this legal distinction.

38:37And so then the last thing that I'll

38:40talk about is this question that Chris

38:42raised about I'm sorry Council member

38:45Harsh. I am like so bad at protocol,

38:48Chris. Okay, so uh so the other thing

38:52uh that you raised was this question of

38:54like should the legislature be in charge

38:56of creating rules and limits or is it up

38:59to courts on a case-by-case basis to

39:00enforce? In my view of the law and the

39:03legal system,

39:05that's an artificial distinction. Law

39:07doesn't do anything without enforcement.

39:09Law doesn't exist without enforcement.

39:12And um and so the legislature can write

39:14all the statutes it wants, but if the

39:16courts are incapable of enforcing what

39:18the legislature puts into

39:20uh into the statute books, then that law

39:22that's just empty words. If you can't

39:24enforce it, then it's not real law. And

39:27um and so you really need all three

39:30branches of government to cooperate in

39:34the realization of law in order for law

39:36to be law. You have to have a statute, a

39:40court, and an enforcement agent all

39:43working together to give life to what

39:46laws are on the books. Sometimes that

39:49enforcement can be internalized by

39:50members of the polity and then can be

39:53self-enforced without the need of a

39:54court to be involved, but only if the

39:58members of the polity who are supposed

40:00to be bound by the law subjectively

40:02embrace the constraint as their own. And

40:05I think as we have seen throughout

40:06history, members of the elected class

40:10who have power don't feel subjectively

40:13constrained by the limits that the

40:15legislature has placed on corruption.

40:18They haven't chosen to self-enforce a

40:20lot of them. Not Some of them do, but

40:22but a lot of them don't. And um and so

40:25then if you want members of the elected

40:28class to be genuinely constrained, then

40:31you have to get courts involved and also

40:34prosecutors involved in in making those

40:38limits real

40:40um and making sure that they get

40:41enforced. So, it's not an easy task from

40:44a legal perspective and from a

40:45perspective of institutional design, but

40:49but and and and ultimately at the end of

40:52the day I really think that it has to be

40:54up to the voters to sniff out the

40:56difference

40:57between corruption and policy.

41:01And to choose to vote against people who

41:03are corrupt. So we'll see what Texans do

41:05when given the choice between a

41:08>> [laughter]

41:09>> a corrupt a felon felony level corrupt

41:12politician and

41:14and a guy who has never been prosecuted.

41:17But

41:18you know in the

41:19in a lot of elections I think we see

41:21voters ignoring corruption or thinking

41:23that it's not a reason not to vote for

41:26somebody. So

41:28you know if we choose a corrupt system

41:30then we're stuck with it. And

41:33you know we need to vote against those

41:35types of guys.

41:38>> You have 10 seconds.

41:39>> I'm done.

41:42That probably took 10 seconds. To me

41:44saying I'm done.

41:45>> [laughter]

41:46>> All right.

41:47Thank you.

41:48>> Thank you. Appreciate that. So I I think

41:50I think that we we got started climbing

41:52up the mountain and I think you kind of

41:53got us to the top of the mountain. We're

41:55sort of we're facing the issue now and

41:57we're going to survey the land and see

41:58see where where what what the view looks

42:00like from the top. Um and then as a

42:02reminder to everybody

42:04when uh this is

42:06Professor Bendik Keemer.

42:08When he's done we will open it up to

42:09questions from the

42:12committee

42:13starting with Council President and then

42:15seniority order. So Polensek, Conwell,

42:18House Jones and then myself and then

42:19we'll open it up to everybody else.

42:21But

42:22cool. Let's keep it going.

42:24This is

42:25Jeremy Bendik Keemer, the Professor of

42:27Philosophy and Faculty Senate Chair at

42:28Case Western Reserve.

42:33>> Thank you.

42:34Thank you for your service and thanks

42:36for hosting this

42:38panel. It's interesting.

42:40Um

42:41I'm going to just talk about some big

42:43picture concerns in light of what my

42:45colleagues have said.

42:47Um it's this panel is phrased as a

42:50ethics panel.

42:51Um so, the question of legality, the

42:54question of

42:56um

42:57the normative structure around um

43:00ethical decision-making is something

43:02that's important [music]

43:04for a person.

43:05Um but I'm not going to weigh in on it.

43:07My colleagues have done that better in

43:09many ways.

43:10But the thing that's very obvious to say

43:12is that it for an ethical person, um you

43:15have to be legal.

43:16And if a law is a bad law, then you have

43:19to try to change it legally. And if

43:22there are no obvious legal means to

43:24change it,

43:25in other words, where the laws are so

43:27bad that you can't engage in processes

43:29to change it, then you have to figure

43:31out how to create laws in a way that is

43:34just. So, there's a really the question

43:37of this panel is a question about areas

43:40of discretion,

43:42not of legality.

43:43Obviously, if something is illegal or if

43:46it is too close to being illegal, then

43:49an ethical person avoids it, and they do

43:52the best they can to figure out what the

43:55heck they're supposed to do to be in

43:57compliance with the law. End of story.

44:01And to the degree to which people talk

44:02out of both sides of their mouth around

44:04this, you can instantly know that

44:05they're not ethical.

44:07Ethical people want to get things right.

44:10Period.

44:12Okay. So, the question is about the

44:14question is about the discretionary

44:17area. And obviously, there's a lot of

44:19complexity here. And what I at first

44:21when I was invited into this um

44:24forum, um of course, red flags went up

44:27because this is a highly um I won't call

44:29it politicized. I don't think that

44:31that's the correct use of the word

44:32political. It's a highly strategic

44:35um cynical

44:37>> [music]

44:37>> uh environment that we're in right now,

44:39where politics is being subverted

44:41by sound bites and by fast talking out

44:44of both sides of people's mouths. And I

44:46hate to say it, that happens across

44:48party lines. So, I'll just say that

44:50right now is a non-partisan thing. Um

44:52with no nod to Cleveland, I'm thinking,

44:54at the national level.

44:56Okay, so I was concerned because it felt

44:59like this was potentially a very

45:00superficial, um,

45:02way of getting into a tangle that just

45:04gets re-appropriated on social media in

45:07in soundbites.

45:09Um, however, I think that that framing

45:11of it, that worry, is part of the

45:13problem because once you get into

45:15discretion, you get into the

45:17actual ethical issue underlying our

45:20situation. Ethos, [music]

45:22right, from the Greek is a way of life.

45:24It also means character. It's also a

45:26spirit of a community. And our

45:28community, our way of life, and our

45:30character,

45:31reportedly, if we support this country,

45:34we we accept being here, is democratic.

45:37So, actually, the concern I had with

45:40superficiality with, um,

45:43kind of co-opting whatever we talk

45:44about, the concern with how, um, vicious

45:47the whole thing is and actually

45:48unpolitical is part of the larger issue,

45:51which is a failure of democratic trust.

45:54And by democratic, I certainly do not

45:56mean the Democratic Party, no offense to

45:58the to that party. I mean something

46:00deeper than that.

46:02So, I would say that just to provide a

46:04couple big picture issue uh it big big

46:07picture framings that the maybe the

46:08thing to think about once one clears

46:11away the legality and does one's

46:13darndest to figure out if one's on the

46:16right side of the law is how to

46:18establish discretion in communities and

46:21then in adjacent communities, the ones

46:23that you should care about because your

46:25community affects those communities, not

46:26the ones that just want to sit, you

46:28know, on the other side of the world and

46:30take potshots at you or the other side

46:31of the country or maybe at the center of

46:33the country and take potshots at you.

46:35The question is how to create trust,

46:38democratic trust, around discretionary

46:40areas. That's the question that I asked

46:43for myself. So, when you think about

46:46that, when you think about the spirit of

46:47democracy, there's a couple very basic

46:50things to keep in mind. One is that it

46:53the spirit of democracy is based on free

46:55relationships.

46:57And free relationships mean

46:59relationships where nobody rules another

47:01person.

47:02The rule comes from us getting together

47:04collectively and the civic republican

47:06idea, this is my favorite form of

47:08republicanism, right? An ancient ideal

47:11is that in a society where people are

47:14free and equal, nobody has to be afraid

47:17to look each other in the eyes,

47:19to be able to shake each other's hands.

47:22That's the way it is.

47:24Right?

47:25And so that's the that's the spirit of

47:28our community. And within that we are

47:30expected as citizens to be focusing on

47:33the public good.

47:34So the simplest thing to say about this

47:36issue about the worry about buying votes

47:38is that why is it a problem to buy a

47:40vote? Because it co-opts our primary

47:43duty

47:45as a citizen in a

47:46>> [music]

47:46>> democratic society, which is that our

47:48vote should focus on the public good. I

47:50know that sounds strange in our world.

47:52That shows you how much voting

47:54is part it has eroded. The spirit of

47:57voting. Vote this the idea in a

48:00democracy is that I need to think about

48:02[music]

48:03the public.

48:05I have to think about my own issues, but

48:07I have to think about what is right for

48:09the public.

48:16No, you're good. I just let you settle

48:17in. So it's all good. So anyway, so

48:20that's that's the first thing, right? So

48:21that that the attention should be on the

48:23public good.

48:25The other thing to think about is that

48:27because there's a commitment in

48:28democracy to people being able to govern

48:30their lives together,

48:33we need to have situations where people

48:35are at a threshold of agency to be able

48:39to effectively know that they can share

48:41in governance without feeling pushed

48:43around or without being precarious. And

48:46I I bring this up because I think this

48:48is underlying the confusion over the

48:50food stamp or sorry, the food excuse me,

48:53the food donation issue. The food card

48:55gift card issue, excuse me. I should by

48:57mention it that I was a beneficiary as a

48:59child of food stamps. I just want to

49:01bring that up and it was a program that

49:03meant a lot to my family.

49:05Um, but in any case, um,

49:08peop- there has to be a threshold. So,

49:10if you think about it, there's various

49:11I'm just going to talk about very simple

49:13conditions. We come together in

49:14democracy to share in governance in a

49:17free relationship where nobody rules

49:18another person. Our responsibility in so

49:21far as we engage in that is to focus on

49:22the public good and we need to have

49:24people who have enough agency together

49:26that they're not afraid of being

49:28coerced, pushed around, or intimidated.

49:31And have enough know-how to be able to

49:33participate in the public good. So, what

49:35I would just say is a very simple thing

49:36that I would use if I were in this

49:38situation in terms of the big picture

49:40discretion.

49:41Right? I would think about how the use

49:44of discretionary we'll call them

49:46discretionary funds, discretionary

49:47gifts, I don't know what you want to

49:48call them. Discretionary goods is

49:50probably the simplest way to do it.

49:53And I would think about whether

49:54discretionary goods are delivered with a

49:58clear intention

50:00that maintains a focus on the public

50:02good.

50:04Never the private interest.

50:06That's the that follows from this

50:08picture. And then I would also ask if

50:11part of that intention is to bring

50:14people up to a level that they can

50:16participate in collective governance.

50:20And I think that that would basically be

50:22it.

50:23Now, then the larger question and I've

50:24only got like a minute left.

50:26>> two. Two.

50:27>> Okay. But the larger question then is if

50:30one acts within these kinds of broad

50:33kind of this this broad framework,

50:35what is one to do in reality about such,

50:39um,

50:39just a complete

50:41erosion or even absence of trust

50:44>> [music]

50:44>> in in in in it you can say in public

50:47officials, but it's really in the

50:48democratic process. It's in our

50:49democratic experiment.

50:51And so, all I can say there is stuff

50:53that I think my colleagues have already

50:54said very well, um, which is that there

50:57are obviously

51:00there are obviously a lot of things that

51:02go into trust, but the the basic one

51:05basic ones are values that are shared

51:08that people can recognize.

51:10And then communicative

51:13uh capacities, right? So that people are

51:15recognized. People have voices. This is

51:18part of the civic republican ideal.

51:20People can are also able to clear

51:22ignorance through communication.

51:24Communication is a lot about just

51:25information, what you're doing here,

51:27thinking.

51:29So insofar as you think your

51:31discretionary orientation is basically

51:33right, you want to give

51:36particular things within your

51:37discretionary power because it will

51:39bring people up to a level where they

51:40are more capable of being citizens with

51:43together or because you and and and

51:46because you're always thinking that it's

51:47about the public good and not private

51:49interest, then I think but that that you

51:51still encounter this kind of cynical and

51:55and and corrosive environment of

51:56distrust, I think the obvious thing to

51:58do is to try to figure out what

52:01practices are in your community cuz it's

52:03a community question to try to basically

52:06join

52:07surface what the community values are

52:10that shape

52:11what's acceptable for the community for

52:13discretion. And again, I always think

52:15you have adjacent communities because

52:16your community always affects another

52:18community. So there's this idea of

52:20paying attention to your neighbors. And

52:22then also finally, just trying to work

52:24out the right kind of communicative

52:26practices so that people can be

52:28informed. This is already been said. So

52:30that people know um also legal pathways,

52:32that's a part of legal agency if there's

52:34a legal issue around this. And so that

52:36people know that they can come in, look

52:39you in the eye, shake your hand, and be

52:41recognized um as part of the process. So

52:44that's it for the big picture stuff, um

52:46but thank you for uh hearing me out.

52:49>> Thank you very much. Uh I appreciate all

52:51four of you. I know somebody had to to

52:53run skedaddle a little sooner than

52:55others.

52:56Um but I think it's a really great table

52:58setting. So we uh

53:00often have these conversations um at

53:03city hall and I I'm really grateful that

53:05the four of you were able to spend some

53:07time talking about this,

53:08um, in a public setting because I think

53:10that we don't talk about ethics enough.

53:11I don't think we don't we don't talk

53:12enough about, um, the responsibility of

53:14elected officials to balance the public

53:17interest, the public good with the, uh,

53:19very real long running historical

53:22problem. Um, and it's since it's

53:24something we grapple with, I wanted to

53:25to bring it out into the open to just

53:26sort of have a a a fair conversation

53:29about it. I think all of you have have

53:30done that very very well and I and I

53:31thank you. I'm going to open it up to

53:33questions. Um, I'm going to start with

53:35Council President Blaine Griffin. Uh,

53:36everybody will have 10 minutes on the,

53:39uh, Operations Committee. Uh, that

53:40should take us to a little after 11:30,

53:4211:40 and then I'm dividing the

53:44remaining time right now by four,

53:46um, who will go in order of, uh,

53:48attendance. So, uh, Council Pre- Oh, and

53:50I'm sorry, one more thing about

53:51procedure. We do try to do this thing

53:53about going through the chair. It's not

53:55the most important thing in the world.

53:56This is there's no legislation on the

53:57table, so we can be a little bit, you

53:59know, but, uh, the idea is to try to

54:01keep the conversation from getting to,

54:03uh, personal. I don't think that'll be

54:04an issue today, but,

54:06you know, we'll just we'll roll with it.

54:08Council President.

54:09>> Thank you, Mr. Chair.

54:11Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, first and

54:13foremost, um, I think, um, I'm glad that

54:16we're having these conversations. I know

54:17that Councilwoman House brought up an

54:19issue that we had in finance, a

54:21conversation in finance and I think it's

54:23important to start to have these kind of

54:25conversations in the public. Um, and the

54:27reason that I agreed to have these

54:29conversations in the public is because

54:31we want to be transparent as a council.

54:33Uh, I think transparency in government

54:35is extremely important. I will say that

54:37council members come under the most

54:39scrutiny of any elected official out

54:42here.

54:43Most people won't come and interact with

54:45their mayor. Most people won't interact

54:46with their congress people. Most people

54:48won't interact with senators, governors,

54:49or anybody else. But who they will

54:51interact with on a regular basis is

54:53their council person. So, council people

54:55are often times asked to do and know a

54:58little bit about everything, but not be

54:59an expert at one thing. And we're also

55:01asked to provide, um, and have an

55:04enormous responsibility to try to

55:05provide for the public. You mentioned it

55:07earlier, the environment, the political

55:09environment right now is very, very

55:11toxic. Uh when we have a person that can

55:13stand on the stage and tell everybody,

55:16um you know, that they're going to give

55:18$5,000 to everybody if they get the

55:20right outcome in an election, um is

55:22blatantly um misleading, dishonest, if

55:25not illegal.

55:26Um then, we also have uh a person that's

55:29sitting in the highest office in the

55:31land that has made almost a billion

55:33dollars between him and the family

55:34members regarding cryptocurrency and

55:37some of the other policies and some of

55:38the other things that they're doing. One

55:40of the biggest topics that people are

55:41having at the federal level is about not

55:43having insider trading, where we have so

55:46many congresspeople that have public

55:48stocks, and after they make votes and

55:51these kind of things happen. Yet, the

55:53scrutiny, as you mentioned, on social

55:55media and in the public puts us in a

55:58position where we constantly have to

56:00defend our actions of what we do as a

56:02council. So, I'm glad that the council

56:05um

56:05man Harsh is putting this together

56:07because I think that we got to be able

56:08to be transparent and also show the

56:10public and justify why and what we're

56:13doing.

56:14I will tell you that uh the United Way

56:16Alice Report, which gives statistics on

56:19poverty in the area,

56:21has stated that food insecurity is the

56:24number one issue that our residents are

56:26facing when it comes to social service

56:29safety net.

56:30And even though Cleveland City Council

56:33and City Hall and our budget is not set

56:36up to really handle a lot of the social

56:39service needs because the social service

56:41safety net, and we're about to vote on a

56:43Health and Human Services Levy with

56:45Issue 11,

56:46um should generally and has

56:48traditionally come from the county.

56:51But, in the zest for so many people to

56:53change the form of government to compete

56:56with the city,

56:58they created a new form of government

56:59that I think some people don't um agree

57:02with now, even some of the people that

57:04were proponents of that new government.

57:06But, their primary responsibility was

57:08supposed to be the social service safety

57:10net. However, council, because we're the

57:13closest with the people, have an

57:16enormous responsibility to try to find

57:18ways to take care of the needs of the

57:21people that we serve.

57:23I will also tell you that we are one of

57:24the rarest cities that have

57:25discretionary dollars. And the reason

57:28that we have discretionary dollars

57:29because Cleveland is a Dickensian model

57:31of a city.

57:32There are some areas that have different

57:34needs than others. There are different

57:36parts of the wards that have different

57:38needs than other parts of the ward. So,

57:40being able to be flexible and have

57:43discretionary dollars to be able to

57:44handle the needs is a critical for

57:47Cleveland City Council. I'll give you a

57:48case in point.

57:50If we did not have discretionary

57:51dollars,

57:53we would not have had some of the

57:54cameras and speed tables that most of

57:56our residents uh wanted so bad.

58:00And Cleveland City Council, through

58:01those dollars, were able to do it. You

58:03mentioned Meyer Supermarket. Meyer

58:05Supermarket happened because I had to

58:07put um

58:09200,000 worth of discretionary dollars

58:11into the supermarket in order to make it

58:14pencil when they were trying to build it

58:16in order to have right-of-ways. So, I

58:18say all of that to set the stage for

58:21just two questions and then I'll turn it

58:23over to my colleagues.

58:25Who is government supposed to serve?

58:28And I ask that honestly because I

58:31oftentimes think that people focus on

58:33the rich who influence, the middle class

58:35who they try to focus all the policies

58:37around, but the poor people are often

58:39left behind.

58:40So, who is government supposed to serve?

58:43And then also,

58:45when we, and this is an honest question,

58:48as a council set proper public purpose

58:52rules of how to spend the money,

58:56how is that or is that any kind of

58:58ethical concern that you guys would

59:01give? So, those are the two things.

59:03Who is government supposed to serve? And

59:05also, if council members are the ones

59:08who set up the guidelines and the rules,

59:10as you stated, that we had a process and

59:12that we just need everybody to follow

59:14the process, then why is there any

59:18question about ethics or any issues like

59:21that?

59:22Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I yield to the

59:24team.

59:24>> Who would like to take a stab at that?

59:26Anybody want to jump in?

59:29Professor Moncrief.

59:32>> I think, you know, the question of whose

59:34government's supposed to serve, I would

59:35answer more from my

59:37political theorist hat than my law

59:39professor hat, but I

59:42but I

59:44there you know, political theorists have

59:45offered a number of different answers to

59:47that question over the years about how

59:49do we serve everyone. I you know, I

59:51think the

59:52the most fundamental answer is

59:54government is supposed to exist to serve

59:55everyone.

59:56But of course, there are going to be

59:57competing demands on government

1:00:00resources from different

1:00:02groups and different factions, and so

1:00:04how does government go about creating a

1:00:07system that serves everyone?

1:00:09Um my own view is the utilitarian Peter

1:00:13Singer welfareist view that we should

1:00:15try to maximize the well-being of

1:00:18everybody as as much as possible, which

1:00:20means that we should take into

1:00:22consideration the fact that wealthy

1:00:25people have a smaller marginal utility

1:00:27of an additional dollar than do less

1:00:30wealthy people, and so like they gain

1:00:32less from each additional benefit you

1:00:34give them than do people who start off

1:00:36with less

1:00:38uh

1:00:38at the outset. And so then government

1:00:41services ought to be more concentrated

1:00:43in helping people who need help and not

1:00:46helping people who are already doing

1:00:48fine.

1:00:49Um there's a a different way of stating

1:00:52the same idea that comes from John

1:00:54Rawls, which says we should use what's

1:00:56called a maximin constraint, where we

1:00:58should try to improve the welfare of

1:01:00everybody in whatever way is possible

1:01:02without

1:01:03um making the least well-off any worse.

1:01:06And so it that's the you know, the the

1:01:08constraint on welfareism is whatever we

1:01:11do can't possibly make anybody

1:01:14less well-off than they uh start the the

1:01:16least well off any less well off than

1:01:17they started out being. Um so there are

1:01:20like different ways of kind of stating

1:01:21the same notion, but then but the uh you

1:01:23know, the idea that government services

1:01:26can justifiably be concentrated on the

1:01:29people who need services more is is

1:01:32fairly well known even within an a

1:01:33conception of government that is there

1:01:35to serve everybody.

1:01:40>> I think we'll go down here first.

1:01:43>> I I I just want to

1:01:44add uh

1:01:45a bit of and also

1:01:48from historical example that we are

1:01:51maybe uh living in a very stratified

1:01:54society, but we are living in the same

1:01:56city. Um or in the same community, both

1:01:59rich people and poor people using the

1:02:02same roads, the same sewer system,

1:02:05>> [music]

1:02:05>> uh

1:02:05issues of public health, of food of food

1:02:08security. Um it's not just affecting the

1:02:11people who are directly affected by it,

1:02:14but it is affected the entire city, even

1:02:16people who are not maybe food insecure.

1:02:20Um so we when we think about who

1:02:22government should um serve, right? It is

1:02:25everyone in the sense, but also everyone

1:02:27has

1:02:29the um

1:02:30duty in a way, right? And and I think

1:02:34and as a historical example, Theodore

1:02:36Roosevelt, who came from a very very

1:02:38rich family, right? Um

1:02:41really understood that that even with

1:02:44all his money and all his uh power and

1:02:48political power, he was not able to

1:02:51protect um in his case it was his wife

1:02:54and his mother who died from infections

1:02:58that had to do with public health. And

1:03:01because, right, the servants in his

1:03:03house were living in in in in dire

1:03:08condition and

1:03:10brought the disease into his own, right,

1:03:12cured mansion. Right? This idea that we

1:03:15are connected to one another, that even

1:03:17if we are seemingly living in very

1:03:20different world if because we are

1:03:23working with one another we're using the

1:03:24same roads, the same air, the same

1:03:27resources, we do need to think that the

1:03:30government when thinks about services

1:03:32and who do they serve, we need to serve

1:03:35um all of those communities cuz those

1:03:38communities are connected. It's not that

1:03:40oh, the poor the poor need help and the

1:03:43rich can take care of themselves because

1:03:45we are living in this

1:03:48interconnected system.

1:03:52>> Ali, did you want to go?

1:03:53I I have something but I'm happy to

1:03:55wait.

1:03:56>> I could add

1:03:58just I just want to acknowledge going

1:04:00back to sort of the

1:04:03the the cynicism and the skepticism

1:04:05about public servants in general.

1:04:08But there's also there's a lot of

1:04:10ideology out there that muddies the

1:04:13waters when we're talking about um

1:04:16uh who is policy supposed to actually

1:04:18serve. So, a prioritarian

1:04:21which and Rawls comes out of the Kantian

1:04:23tradition just But uh

1:04:26Yeah, he is. Yeah.

1:04:29Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:31Um

1:04:32So, even if you embrace a

1:04:33prioritarianism which is utilitarianism

1:04:37with a focus on the the the people who

1:04:38have the greatest needs.

1:04:40Um uh so, a maximin uh my my colleague

1:04:44mentioned that that idea.

1:04:46There are ideological

1:04:49uh

1:04:50there's a lot of ideology out there. A

1:04:52lot of people who are struggling

1:04:54financially

1:04:56embrace this ideology that says, "Look,

1:04:59eliminate taxes on large corporations,

1:05:02on uh the wealthiest investors because

1:05:05this in the end of the day is the best

1:05:07and most efficient way to help the

1:05:09poorest." I I don't embrace this

1:05:12philosophy but it's

1:05:13widespread. It's widely embraced.

1:05:17It interacts with a general skepticism

1:05:19about government and the role of uh

1:05:22policy and public servants. So, I just

1:05:24want to acknowledge

1:05:26part of the problem here is

1:05:28there's a type of ideological warfare,

1:05:30obviously, and and

1:05:32um

1:05:33you know, that's a tough philosophical

1:05:35battle to to uh win. Uh

1:05:39So, just acknowledging that, yeah.

1:05:41>> The only thing The only thing

1:05:43>> Yep.

1:05:44The only thing I would um

1:05:46add to what has been said, which is

1:05:48[music] excellent, is um

1:05:51that the answer to one is important for

1:05:54getting the answer to two right.

1:05:56Right? The number two pr-

1:05:59proper public purpose rules, there's a

1:06:01question of legitimacy and trust there.

1:06:04It requires a good answer to number one.

1:06:07One that people will accept, one that's

1:06:09clear, one that makes sense, etc. So,

1:06:12the only thing I would add is that who

1:06:14who is who who um who is the

1:06:18who are the governments who is the

1:06:20government supposed to serve? Who are

1:06:21you supposed to serve? Well, it's the

1:06:24human being

1:06:26who happens to be one of the ones who is

1:06:29who has elected you.

1:06:31That's the key thing. It's the human

1:06:34being. And if a person is dehumanized

1:06:37by virtue of precarity

1:06:40they come first.

1:06:43We could argue about this later. I think

1:06:44Rawls is completely wrong about this.

1:06:48So, I would just say that. And I think

1:06:50that in so far as they're probably

1:06:51public proper public purpose rules at

1:06:54stake, what's it What I mean, in so far

1:06:57as there's lots of tangles and

1:06:58complexities, somehow one has to sit

1:07:00down with one's community

1:07:03and get clear about why those rules are

1:07:05there, whether they think there should

1:07:07be different kinds of rules or

1:07:08accountability. And at the bottom of it

1:07:10is going to be a justification, and I

1:07:12think the justification should be we're

1:07:14serving

1:07:16our our our citizens who are human

1:07:19beings. So, if you are in a situation

1:07:22where you can't live as a a decent human

1:07:24life with dignity, that's going to be

1:07:26something we prioritize.

1:07:28That's my answer.

1:07:29>> Can I say one more thing on question

1:07:31Uh

1:07:32So, I you know, I I I answered question

1:07:35one a little bit and did not talk about

1:07:36question two, but I think that the

1:07:38question of like how do we go about

1:07:41ensuring that we are serving the public

1:07:43and not serving our own interests,

1:07:45the constitutional design anticipates

1:07:47separated powers as the way of doing

1:07:49this to where you you enact a statute

1:07:52and then somebody else goes out and

1:07:53hands out the food cards. And so, the

1:07:56there's a there's a separation of

1:07:58accountability

1:07:59to where we make sure that you can't

1:08:02personally hand out a food card and be

1:08:03like, I

1:08:05provided this for you, right? Like some

1:08:06No, the person who hands it out is

1:08:08somebody else and the person who voted

1:08:09to provide it to you is somebody So,

1:08:12then there's this like

1:08:14uh

1:08:16a little bit of a buffer to make sure

1:08:17that when you vote to hand out gift

1:08:20cards,

1:08:21you're not thinking ahead about how much

1:08:23credit you're going to get back from the

1:08:25individual when you hand it out to them.

1:08:27And um and so, I do think that this, you

1:08:30know, the I and I didn't read the news

1:08:32reports leading up to this, so I'm just

1:08:34taking your word for it that there was

1:08:35some discussion about like maybe you

1:08:37guys shouldn't be there when the when

1:08:39the gift cards are handed out. Um

1:08:42I you know, I think that's not a

1:08:43terrible idea. You City councils are not

1:08:47um separated powers in the same way that

1:08:49the US constitutional design is. And so,

1:08:51like you do have a little bit of a mixed

1:08:53function relative to

1:08:55uh the stricter separation that exists

1:08:57at the national level. Um so, I don't

1:08:59think there's anything illegal about you

1:09:00being there, but if you wanted to, you

1:09:02know, be ethical and and be as ethical

1:09:05as possible, you might want to not be

1:09:06there just as a way of saying like,

1:09:08"Hey, we really did We would we would

1:09:10have voted for these gift cards

1:09:12regardless of whether anyone ever knew

1:09:14that we were the ones who did it."

1:09:15Right? And I know that that kind of runs

1:09:17a little bit contrary to your

1:09:19motivations as elected officials,

1:09:21but uh because you want to get reelected

1:09:23and you want to claim credit, but at the

1:09:25same time, that is a way of of uh

1:09:29of creating some insurance against

1:09:31self-interested decision-making.

1:09:35>> Um

1:09:36I should have made a bingo card today

1:09:37because I definitely would have put

1:09:39dehumanization on it.

1:09:40>> [laughter]

1:09:41>> Uh and I would have gotten the credit

1:09:42for that. I thought that was a word we

1:09:43might hear today.

1:09:44>> Would you have put Rawls and Maxim on

1:09:45it?

1:09:45>> I I probably would have put Rawls cuz

1:09:47Rawls' theory [laughter] of justice is

1:09:48pretty well taught right now, I think.

1:09:51It's covered in most universities. Um uh

1:09:54next we'll go to uh Dean Polensek. Um

1:09:56you've got 10 minutes,

1:09:58Councilman.

1:09:59>> Thank you.

1:09:59>> You um Mr. Chairman and my honorable

1:10:02colleagues and those of you who are

1:10:03here, um

1:10:05I have the um historical perspective of

1:10:07being here for 14 consecutive terms. So,

1:10:10I've seen the good, the bad, and the

1:10:12ugly at times.

1:10:13But, I will tell you

1:10:15for the most part over my period of

1:10:17time, I think um

1:10:19the overwhelming majority Council

1:10:21members have tried to do the right thing

1:10:23on behalf of their constituents

1:10:26and of and of the

1:10:28the greater city.

1:10:30Um

1:10:32I too came out of an extremely [music]

1:10:33poor family. Mother raised four of us by

1:10:36herself and um

1:10:37two-bedroom house. So,

1:10:39um

1:10:40I remember having uh the powdered milk,

1:10:43the powdered eggs,

1:10:45um and the big blocks of cheese and all

1:10:48that stuff.

1:10:49And um

1:10:51and I understand I saw how she

1:10:53struggled. So, I

1:10:55can relate and I try to relate every day

1:10:59to the less fortunate residents [music]

1:11:00of my community. So, let me give you a

1:11:03historical perspective. When I came in

1:11:05[music] this body,

1:11:06uh it was just under 700,000 people.

1:11:11Um

1:11:12there were 33 members of Council.

1:11:14So, based on population loss,

1:11:17based on disinvestment,

1:11:20based on in some cases institutional

1:11:22racism, and I could go right on down the

1:11:24list as as the [music] complexion of

1:11:25some neighborhoods changed, we saw

1:11:27businesses abandoned and bailed.

1:11:30Um

1:11:31So, today

1:11:32um

1:11:33I myself

1:11:35have have

1:11:36have been receiving

1:11:38am receiving more calls today than ever

1:11:41before in my political um engagement of

1:11:44people needing help.

1:11:46They can't fix their roofs. They can't

1:11:48replace their hot water tanks. They uh

1:11:50they're on uh fixed pensions or on

1:11:53social security.

1:11:55And I could relate to my my late um

1:11:58mother-in-law who lived to be 92 years

1:12:01old. One of the saddest

1:12:02days I think I've ever experienced in my

1:12:04life. I was driving her home one day

1:12:07uh down St. Clair Avenue. Um

1:12:10cuz she lived off St. Clair where she

1:12:11lived since she bought the house. Her

1:12:14late husband who died at a very early

1:12:16age they bought the house before the

1:12:18Pearl Harbor. That's what she told me. I

1:12:20said, "How long have you lived in this

1:12:21house?" She said, "Since before Pearl

1:12:22Harbor."

1:12:23But she she she had the strange look on

1:12:25her face. I said, "Grandma, what's

1:12:26wrong?" Um she said, "I never thought

1:12:29I'd live this long."

1:12:32And I said,

1:12:33"What what are you saying?" She said, "I

1:12:35can't [music] afford to live."

1:12:38It was one of the saddest things I've

1:12:40ever heard in my life.

1:12:42She

1:12:43and she So, if it wasn't for um

1:12:47people

1:12:48in the family helping her

1:12:51um [music]

1:12:52cuz you'd go over to the house in the

1:12:53wintertime. She'd walk She's walking

1:12:55around in with a coat

1:12:57cuz the the gas was low. She lived in a

1:13:00one of these old two-family houses that

1:13:01litter our neighborhoods all over the

1:13:03city. No insulation, no nothing. So,

1:13:07I'm very much aware of the challenges

1:13:10that we're we're having.

1:13:11Um so, why has council I created the

1:13:16the equity fund

1:13:18>> Yes.

1:13:18>> 26 years ago.

1:13:20And I will tell anyone contrary

1:13:23Cleveland.com or whatever it's one of

1:13:25the If I would point back in my

1:13:27political career, it's one of the I

1:13:29would point to as one of the greatest

1:13:30things and best things I ever did.

1:13:32Because why did we call it equity?

1:13:33Because there wasn't equity

1:13:36in this city. [music]

1:13:37People were being excluded. They were

1:13:39being denied basic opportunities. So, I

1:13:42put a million dollars in each [music]

1:13:44ward.

1:13:46That was 26 years ago.

1:13:49And at the time the administration, then

1:13:52Mayor Mike White,

1:13:53uh didn't support it right out of the

1:13:55gate. But then he came to realize as

1:13:57well how important it was. The only

1:14:00mistake that we made over the years is

1:14:03that we never documented

1:14:05how that money was used.

1:14:08If you were to look at how the programs

1:14:11>> [music]

1:14:11>> and the things that this council

1:14:14funded, capital projects, helping local

1:14:17businesses, doing everything, you people

1:14:20wouldn't believe what we what we did

1:14:22with that money. That's the mistake, and

1:14:24I think we need to start keeping a track

1:14:27cuz we're refunding the neighborhood

1:14:28equity fund, thanks to this council

1:14:30president.

1:14:31Um

1:14:32we need to keep a track of those

1:14:34projects

1:14:35cuz whether it be a Myers or whether it

1:14:37be whatever we're doing in our

1:14:39neighborhoods and my colleagues are

1:14:40doing, uh we need to document it going

1:14:42forward.

1:14:44We funded, we had an internal discussion

1:14:47with with with [music] regard to the um

1:14:50uh

1:14:51the ARPA funds,

1:14:52uh how they should be directed, how they

1:14:54should be used. We put $10 million in

1:14:57the food bank.

1:14:59There are some people that questioned

1:15:01should we be putting money in the food

1:15:02bank? Well, we did it

1:15:05because we saw the need.

1:15:07We saw the need at the food bank. Um

1:15:10more more demand on them than ever

1:15:12before. I'm very proud of what [music]

1:15:14the council did. I put to help create

1:15:17the food bank, I put my neighborhood

1:15:20funds in to help create the food bank on

1:15:23South Waterloo Road. Again, I'm I'm it's

1:15:26for the money I put in, I I I I thank

1:15:29the good Lord that um it's one of the

1:15:31best decisions I ever made.

1:15:33Are there some members of the body in my

1:15:3614 terms here

1:15:38who maybe stepped over the edge, went

1:15:40over the edge? Yeah, and they paid a

1:15:41severe price for it. But, I will tell

1:15:43you the overwhelming majority council

1:15:45members here have tried to do what is

1:15:48right based on the needs that have

1:15:50[music] been they are confronted with

1:15:52every day. And I tell people all the

1:15:54time, "Answer my phone for a week.

1:15:58You'll get a whole different perspective

1:15:59on life."

1:16:01You'll you'll say, "What?"

1:16:05Yeah.

1:16:06They're calling you They want you to

1:16:08come over. Their basement's backed up

1:16:10with raw sewage to help open up their

1:16:12basement.

1:16:13Uh they they again hot water tank's out.

1:16:16Um

1:16:17they they need help. Um they've got mold

1:16:20in their basement, they need help. I

1:16:22mean, if you were to the calls that I

1:16:24received today

1:16:25um

1:16:26are far greater.

1:16:28I receive uh more emails, more phone

1:16:31calls than I've ever received in my

1:16:32>> [music]

1:16:32>> in my time in public office.

1:16:35So, I'm glad to hear as well about the

1:16:38laws. Um

1:16:39one of my biggest gripes here at City

1:16:41Hall is we I think we've passed every

1:16:44law we could pass. Now, do we tweak

1:16:46things at times? Yeah, do

1:16:47at times because society's changed, we

1:16:49[music] come in with new laws.

1:16:51Yes.

1:16:52But, just try and get the existing laws

1:16:54enforced.

1:16:56Especially health code,

1:16:58building code.

1:16:59It's like trying to part Lake Erie.

1:17:02It is extremely difficult, and that's

1:17:04one of the frustrations of this

1:17:06legislative body in dealing with the

1:17:08present administration is getting the

1:17:11laws enforced in [music] this city. We

1:17:13have more challenges today. It's been

1:17:15alluded to. We are the we either one or

1:17:17two with the poor as as pertains to the

1:17:20poor [music] city. We are right up there

1:17:22with um

1:17:23child um mortality. We are right up

1:17:26there with um

1:17:28uh children living in poverty.

1:17:31Um so, I want to say to not only the the

1:17:34panel that is here, but to the viewing

1:17:35public,

1:17:36um

1:17:37whether it be the gift cards or other

1:17:40requests that are being placed upon

1:17:42members of council, it's the greatest

1:17:44it's ever been.

1:17:45And I wrestle with it every day. I

1:17:47wrestle with priorities.

1:17:49Um and I can tell you, I'll speak on

1:17:51behalf of my council, there's not a day

1:17:52that goes past that someone doesn't call

1:17:54my office looking for some financial

1:17:56assistance.

1:17:58A nonprofit group, a local a church

1:18:02that's got a food program, um an

1:18:04organization that's [music] trying to do

1:18:06something. Um so,

1:18:10we have become we if you look at the

1:18:12charter, we're we're we're legislators.

1:18:16But what we really have become is

1:18:17ombudsmen.

1:18:19We have become a jack of all trades and

1:18:22overwhelmingly,

1:18:23>> [music]

1:18:23>> um you know, we are um there's nobody in

1:18:26this body.

1:18:28I don't care if you have P- I've served

1:18:29with PhDs in this body. I've [music]

1:18:31served with You name it, I've served

1:18:33with them. There's nobody

1:18:36mentally

1:18:37and educationally equipped

1:18:40or

1:18:41uh or past experience [music]

1:18:44when they come in this body, their their

1:18:45world changes.

1:18:48I don't care.

1:18:49>> [music]

1:18:49>> In fact, the people who do the worst are

1:18:51the people who were um political science

1:18:53majors.

1:18:54Okay? Because they they have their own

1:18:56perception of how things should work,

1:18:58and I can tell you it doesn't work that

1:19:00way.

1:19:01It doesn't work that way. So, I'm glad

1:19:03that Chris set this up.

1:19:06Overwhelming the majority of this body

1:19:08[music] we're trying to do what is right

1:19:10based on and I don't have to tell you

1:19:12that the hits that we've taken we're

1:19:13losing a jail, we lost we're losing the

1:19:15Browns, the stadium, they're trying to

1:19:17wipe out the airport. We need jobs, we

1:19:20need opportunities [music]

1:19:21for our citizens, and the council, um

1:19:24we're struggling to figure out how to do

1:19:26that. And I'm I'm proud to serve with

1:19:29the member men and women in this body.

1:19:30We're trying to do our best. Um but

1:19:34unless you walk in our shoes and listen

1:19:36to our phone calls,

1:19:39then it's a different if different

1:19:41perspective, different world. Thank you,

1:19:42Chris.

1:19:43>> Any questions?

1:19:45If anybody wants to feedback on that,

1:19:46sure.

1:19:47>> I'm so sorry. I have to excuse myself. I

1:19:49was unable to get out of teaching a

1:19:51class, and I have to rush. Sorry about

1:19:52that.

1:19:53>> you the

1:19:54park

1:19:55>> Yes, I'm on set. Thank you.

1:19:57>> Did somebody want to speak to

1:19:58>> I I don't know. I think I would Oh, you

1:20:01want to go?

1:20:01>> No, I was just saying goodbye, Kelly.

1:20:03>> Okay.

1:20:04>> Um

1:20:06Yeah, I mean, I on the point about how

1:20:07hard it is to get the laws enforced, I

1:20:09do think that when

1:20:11the overall mood of

1:20:15a country or a city or a state or

1:20:16whatever

1:20:18becomes skeptical of government,

1:20:21it becomes significantly more difficult

1:20:23to enforce laws because we have less of

1:20:26the self-enforcement, you know, and

1:20:28there's less less of a desire on the

1:20:30part of each individual citizen to

1:20:31comply with the laws.

1:20:33And uh and there's more of an attitude

1:20:36of well, well, government's not out to

1:20:37serve me, not really trying to help me.

1:20:40And so this, you know, the question of

1:20:42of how do we distinguish between

1:20:45corruption and service

1:20:48gets to the question of how do we make

1:20:50our laws easier to enforce as well,

1:20:52right? Like the more that you can that

1:20:54you can convince your people that you

1:20:57are serving them and that you're not

1:20:58self-interested and that the government

1:21:00is there for them and that it's a tool

1:21:03for for their thriving and not uh you

1:21:06know, not a tool for self-aggrandizement

1:21:08on the part of the people holding

1:21:09office,

1:21:10um the easier it gets to enforce laws

1:21:13because they become more self-enforced.

1:21:15Um I don't acknowledge also, of course,

1:21:17that there are

1:21:19resource constraints that affect the

1:21:20ability to enforce laws, and so that's,

1:21:23you know, but but I do think that

1:21:24there's there's a

1:21:26there is a

1:21:27a moment that we're living through right

1:21:29now of intense skepticism toward

1:21:31government that is almost certainly

1:21:33making your jobs a lot harder.

1:21:34>> Hey, I'm skeptical of government.

1:21:36And I mean it.

1:21:37>> Yeah.

1:21:38>> Because of what I've seen what I've

1:21:40experienced. When I see billionaires

1:21:43who have their hands out

1:21:44>> Yeah.

1:21:45>> in Ohio

1:21:46at the same time we can't adequately

1:21:48fund public education. We can't support

1:21:51things that are critical for our

1:21:52communities. And I [music] see it the

1:21:53wealthiest among us and I just picked up

1:21:56Forbes magazine with the with the the

1:21:58Fortune 400 and you see some of our own

1:22:02folks who are in that group who stand

1:22:05out like they're on Prospect Avenue with

1:22:07a cup

1:22:09wanting money

1:22:10I it it I I become very jaded as well, I

1:22:13can tell you.

1:22:17>> We're going to we're going to keep

1:22:18moving

1:22:19forward if you want to answer the I just

1:22:21want to make sure we don't lose track of

1:22:22time.

1:22:22>> Yeah, I I just would say that it goes

1:22:24back to this question of who the

1:22:26government serve, right? What is the

1:22:27role of government? And I think, you

1:22:29know,

1:22:30in in the Great Depression,

1:22:33uh that

1:22:34um

1:22:35question became very severe because it

1:22:37was apparent that old people cannot

1:22:40afford to live. That uh relying on your

1:22:43church, relying on a nonprofit, relying

1:22:46on your family members is not enough.

1:22:48And the government does have the

1:22:50responsibility to take care of your

1:22:52basic needs, whether it's education,

1:22:55health, uh

1:22:57where you live, what you eat, right?

1:22:59This is the role of government. And this

1:23:01is And I think, you know, going back to

1:23:03the question of trust, if if the

1:23:06citizens don't feel that the government

1:23:09really

1:23:10work to secure those things, right? Then

1:23:13then it is as kind of like, oh, you're

1:23:15doing it for yourself or you're doing it

1:23:17to help your friends. Um but but it is

1:23:20the role of the government. And I think

1:23:22like that's one of kind of like

1:23:24as a justification for the the policies

1:23:27and the things that you do in in city

1:23:29council, you do need to say, yes,

1:23:32you need to rely on government. And I

1:23:35And again, I do acknowledge

1:23:37it issues of funds and and constraints

1:23:40and limitations, but but it needs to be

1:23:43that this is the job of the government

1:23:46to provide those things, right? To to be

1:23:49able for people to live in dignity and

1:23:51their humanity to be secured and not to

1:23:55rely on the good faith of employers,

1:23:59churches, um who has a role in all of

1:24:02those assistance, but you cannot rely on

1:24:05them. And you know, we lived in a period

1:24:07where the Great Depression really proved

1:24:09that that the only

1:24:12uh

1:24:13entity that can really secure those

1:24:15things is the government and even the

1:24:18federal government or you know, the

1:24:20local government and not the good faith

1:24:23of

1:24:24billionaires and other philanthropists.

1:24:28So, I will just put it that way.

1:24:30>> Point well taken.

1:24:32Um

1:24:33we're going to continue on to Councilman

1:24:34Conwell. Uh you've got the

1:24:36>> I want to get to you, Professor, in a

1:24:38little while. You know, when we

1:24:41when you talk about these cars, this is

1:24:43what I couldn't understand. I just can't

1:24:46understand it. Okay.

1:24:48So, we do ribbon cuttings. We champion a

1:24:52lot for our residents.

1:24:55Um we have an up-close view of what's

1:24:57going on.

1:24:58A genuine concern, a sensitive ear

1:25:00what's going on in our community. So,

1:25:03you have these million-dollar projects

1:25:06and you sit there as the council member

1:25:07cuz you champion it and you push the

1:25:10projects through city planning. You push

1:25:12the projects through the uh

1:25:15diff- different committee meetings. You

1:25:18call the police if there's an issue or

1:25:20concern with the projects to make place

1:25:22matter

1:25:24in your community.

1:25:26So, that's the same thing as

1:25:30the gift cards.

1:25:32You're there in front of there taking

1:25:33speaking

1:25:35and you're pushing the projects. They're

1:25:37It's directly correlated. You're talking

1:25:39about uh with the senior housing

1:25:42programs. We have CDBG coming up at 1:00

1:25:45later later today. They count they call

1:25:47their councilman and say, "Councilman

1:25:49Carnwell or Councilman Chris Harsh or

1:25:52Councilman whatever, I need a new roof."

1:25:54You get Miss Jones a new roof.

1:25:57Correlated, you got the gift cards. It's

1:25:59a different price, but you're there

1:26:01pushing that and you champion it for

1:26:03your resident.

1:26:05The same thing with the with a furnace.

1:26:07The same thing dealing with abject

1:26:09poverty in the community because some of

1:26:11the residents need need a lot of things

1:26:14in your neighborhood. So, it's the same

1:26:16thing, street improvements. Different

1:26:18politicians have street improvements and

1:26:20has Joe Jones' name up there because he

1:26:23championed for you to have a street

1:26:25improvement. [clears throat]

1:26:26But then you come and you say something

1:26:29about the gift cards. That's not

1:26:31correlated. So, you can't say one thing

1:26:34and say the other. I don't want to stand

1:26:36that.

1:26:37That's your job. And even when you

1:26:39campaign for re-election, you put up all

1:26:42the things that you championed for

1:26:44because you you're champion for you're

1:26:47the champion for your bosses. Your job

1:26:50as a legislator is to write policy

1:26:53and bring home money. So, then when you

1:26:55bring home money, oh, you can't do that.

1:26:58You got to be clear. You're not being

1:27:01clear. You're not being clear to the

1:27:03politician. And getting to your point, a

1:27:06lot of things when you look at ethics,

1:27:08it's different in different wards and

1:27:10it's different in different communities

1:27:12because what you're looking at some of

1:27:14this ethics stuff and I sit back and

1:27:15watch. It It affects on culture on the

1:27:20culture of that community and racial

1:27:22biases.

1:27:24You dehumanize

1:27:26the African-American community.

1:27:29And so, when we go in that direction to

1:27:31benefit our residents, you say you can't

1:27:34do that.

1:27:35And presidents have done it throughout.

1:27:37You mentioned

1:27:39I forgot your name with the Great

1:27:41Depression. What do you know in the

1:27:43Great Depression, African-Americans

1:27:45cannot get social security. Dehumanize.

1:27:49When you know in the Great Depression

1:27:51when when soldiers came home from World

1:27:54War II, we could not get the GI bill.

1:27:57They pushed people out into the

1:27:58community. You dehumanize us. And then

1:28:01when we moved into that direction to

1:28:03benefit our people, guess what?

1:28:06You're breaking the law. And when

1:28:08[clears throat] you talked about

1:28:09Pendleton, and I'll yield in a second.

1:28:11When he pushed the civil right not the

1:28:13civil rights piece, when he pushed for

1:28:15ethics back in 1883,

1:28:18Woodrow Wilson

1:28:21fired African-Americans that passed the

1:28:24civil SERVICE TEST. HE FIRED US. WOODROW

1:28:29WILSON fired us.

1:28:31And he did he got rid of us. And so it's

1:28:33about it's about what they say they're

1:28:35saying what is right. And that's a fact.

1:28:39THAT'S A FACT. AND YOU PASSED THOUSANDS

1:28:42OF African-Americans passed the exam.

1:28:45And that guy

1:28:46did an executive order and he fired

1:28:49African-Americans.

1:28:51And you know he did. But when you

1:28:53narrated you never mentioned Woodrow

1:28:56Wilson. And I'm sitting back here

1:28:57thinking about and he saw me. I'm

1:28:59thinking about the

1:29:00how they dehuman- how they did us.

1:29:04That that is right. So how you going to

1:29:06talk about gift cards and you got up

1:29:09there for street improvement projects,

1:29:11you have council members and state reps

1:29:13and people names on things and then

1:29:15you're sitting up there and you're

1:29:17championing for projects.

1:29:19>> I don't think she's taking a stand

1:29:20against gift cards. I don't think that

1:29:21was

1:29:22>> No, no, no, no, no. I didn't say she

1:29:24did. I'm talking about the whole piece.

1:29:26>> yeah. He's connecting

1:29:26>> Cuz you you you champion for your

1:29:28neighborhood.

1:29:30And as CP mentioned, the council

1:29:32president, he talked about the council

1:29:34members. It's the council members that

1:29:36really have to champion for their

1:29:38communities. Cuz we get blamed for guess

1:29:41what?

1:29:42Everything.

1:29:44>> Everything.

1:29:45>> I agree. And and you're right. There is

1:29:47systematic racism in this country. It

1:29:50has started well, well before we became

1:29:52a country, right? It's not has stopped,

1:29:56you know, when we elected a black

1:29:58president. Um we're still living in a

1:30:00very much racialized and I would even

1:30:03say

1:30:04gendered, right? Uh

1:30:06system that um discriminate against

1:30:10black people, against immigrants,

1:30:13against women, against minorities. Um

1:30:17yes, we're not living in a just society.

1:30:20That's should be, right, the assumption

1:30:23and but we are I think needs to aspire

1:30:26how do we better society, right? To live

1:30:30even if if when when the, right, the the

1:30:35declaration of the end of independence

1:30:37that that says that all men created

1:30:40equal

1:30:41uh

1:30:42was not was maybe a universal statement,

1:30:46but a lot of people were not under it,

1:30:48right? That

1:30:49>> That's right.

1:30:50>> that under that system. So, I think and

1:30:52the role of government is to really push

1:30:55how to

1:30:57bring more and more and more communities

1:30:59and people under that universal

1:31:02statement that all men created equal and

1:31:05have inalienable rights.

1:31:06>> But you know what? But you know what?

1:31:08When they pushed the amendments and the

1:31:10civil rights legislation in the 18th

1:31:13century,

1:31:14way before they went to the um civil

1:31:17service system, African Americans took

1:31:20the test and then Woodrow Wilson got rid

1:31:24of us and many of the other presidents.

1:31:26So, you were in that system

1:31:28of dealing with the uh uh

1:31:30the amendments and the whole nine yards.

1:31:33>> I I agree.

1:31:34>> The 14th Amendment. The four You were IN

1:31:36THE 14TH AMENDMENT.

1:31:37>> RIGHT. [clears throat] And I think the

1:31:3814th Amendment is maybe the most

1:31:40important amendment in the Constitution

1:31:42and I wish it would be more enforced

1:31:45than it is now.

1:31:46>> But you broke, not you,

1:31:48>> No, right.

1:31:48>> but you broke the 14th Amendment.

1:31:51>> I agree. And I agree and if you ask me

1:31:54from a historical perspective,

1:31:55>> Just We're playing ping pong.

1:31:57>> Yeah.

1:31:57>> Yeah, we're playing ping pong. I I I

1:31:59just used the history No, I want to add

1:32:01some stuff I want to add some stuff to

1:32:02the discussion, and yeah.

1:32:04>> Yeah.

1:32:04>> Okay, just in the interest of time, cuz

1:32:06this is what you're bringing up, right?

1:32:08I I was I thought I was going to hear

1:32:09about redlining when I came down here

1:32:11today, and it's interesting that I'm I'm

1:32:13glad you're bringing this up.

1:32:14>> Redlining.

1:32:14>> Right. I mean, as a as a as a as a as a

1:32:17metaphor for something real that has

1:32:20affected it. [music] But, here here's

1:32:21the thing. I mean, I think one thing to

1:32:23think about in the national climate and

1:32:26in so far as it affects the city of

1:32:27Cleveland is to think a little bit about

1:32:29what game is being played. I don't think

1:32:31games necessarily mean cynical. Games

1:32:33Good games are good.

1:32:34There's good games, and you got to play

1:32:36them good, too. Well, part of the game,

1:32:39right, with this whole thing that's

1:32:40coming down from the the federal

1:32:43environment, right? Really the

1:32:45executive, I should say, environment is

1:32:47actually to produce a generalized

1:32:49environment of cynicism.

1:32:51Right? So, and and and and so, and I

1:32:54could go into this for a a lot. And to

1:32:55the extent to which you you in the city

1:32:58of Cleveland get ensnared in trying to

1:33:00defend yourself against attacks that

1:33:03that are trying to show you as in some

1:33:05way corrupt, and you're defending

1:33:07against it, that that's actually not

1:33:08their game. Their game is to tie you up,

1:33:11but really, it's to generalize the

1:33:13cynicism. You're actually They want you

1:33:17to in some way be part of that because

1:33:19then the cynicism and the the erosion of

1:33:22the public good, that orientation toward

1:33:25the public good, which is coming down

1:33:27hard from the current administration,

1:33:30um that will then become a diffuse

1:33:32environment that affects everybody. So,

1:33:34the game actually, and I think Cleveland

1:33:36could play a role in it. Cleveland's a

1:33:38great city in many ways for its

1:33:40potential for this is to switch the game

1:33:44to actually showing people how democracy

1:33:46can work.

1:33:48And in order to do that, both of you

1:33:50bring up two really good ideas, right?

1:33:53You have to be able, basically, to put

1:33:56on your hat and be historians and

1:33:58storytellers and educators not from on

1:34:00high everyday people to tell the story

1:34:03and to tell the information to people

1:34:06about what is structuring the situation.

1:34:08Right? So what is happening is you've

1:34:09got a narrowing of trusted discretion

1:34:12that comes with the growing of distrust

1:34:15and the clamoring for oversight. You

1:34:17have to switch that around by generating

1:34:20trust. That's what allows people to

1:34:22relax and understand that the discretion

1:34:24makes sense. In order to generate that

1:34:27trust, uh

1:34:28uh uh Councilman uh Palencik, uh

1:34:31Councilman Conwell, you both have two

1:34:33possibilities of better education for

1:34:35people. One is to tell the story of the

1:34:38phone calls every week.

1:34:40I mean, there are interns everywhere who

1:34:42could help you do that.

1:34:44I can I know a bunch of college students

1:34:46in my university who would would would

1:34:48love to come work in your offices to

1:34:51help tell the story

1:34:52of what you're seeing every week. It

1:34:54needs to get out there. And you were

1:34:56right, and Palencik Councilman Palencik

1:34:57was right when when when when you made

1:34:59the mistake of not telling people what

1:35:01you were doing, that was setting it up.

1:35:03So you can reverse it. And then of

1:35:04course the big one in town is still,

1:35:06this is why we're not allowed to talk

1:35:08about race in this country anymore,

1:35:10quote unquote, is to get off the table

1:35:13the major systems that have dominated

1:35:15people and have created enduring

1:35:16inequality and degradation. But we can

1:35:19tell that story in terms of the human

1:35:21being.

1:35:23And what it takes for the human being,

1:35:26whether they're racially coded, whether

1:35:27they're gender coded, and etc. to get on

1:35:30their feet again.

1:35:30>> what You know what you have to tell the

1:35:32story as well.

1:35:33>> I do. Every day.

1:35:34>> when when you when you narrated the

1:35:37civil service exam, uh uh Professor, you

1:35:41never mentioned some of the presidents

1:35:44that like like Roosevelt and the rest of

1:35:46them.

1:35:47>> I only had 10 [laughter] minutes.

1:35:48>> Oh, okay. But but but it was in your

1:35:51paradigm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You You had

1:35:53someone like me who know the history

1:35:56sitting back there listening to you, and

1:35:59you talked about the civil service exam

1:36:02but the cultural bias this in the system

1:36:05this in that system I know.

1:36:08And so I'm sitting back listening to you

1:36:10about President Wilson and the rest of

1:36:12them. He was the worst president.

1:36:14>> I I agree with YOU. I AGREE WITH YOU

1:36:17WHOLEHEARTEDLY. As a historian and

1:36:19that that that that is really actually

1:36:23I mean I think

1:36:24>> [laughter]

1:36:25>> President Wilson is definitely and the I

1:36:27mean historians do not like to do those

1:36:30those rankings but it's definitely he's

1:36:32definitely out there in the worst five

1:36:35presidents ever. I agree with you.

1:36:37>> Well, he was I mean like he was a white

1:36:39supremacist. He was a fascist. He was a

1:36:42He was a eugenicist. He was like I mean

1:36:44he was

1:36:46But no so but like Wilson was Wilson was

1:36:48terrible in ways that were like not

1:36:50specifically about corruption though,

1:36:51right? Like he wasn't And so like so

1:36:53because we're talking about

1:36:55>> [laughter]

1:36:57>> a very bad bad president in a very in in

1:37:00a for a lot of reasons

1:37:01>> I'm going to say this to you. He helped

1:37:04bring back the KKK.

1:37:06>> Yes.

1:37:07>> The Birth OF A NATION.

1:37:08THE BIRTH OF A NATION.

1:37:10>> THE FIRST MOVIE to ever shown in the

1:37:12White House was the the

1:37:14the nation where where the nation and he

1:37:16was he was he was a generally racist and

1:37:21I you know, I respect this this but I

1:37:24can do a lot of bad words about him. I

1:37:27have no sympathy toward Woodrow Wilson,

1:37:29let me tell you.

1:37:31>> [laughter]

1:37:32>> I would not have had President Woodrow

1:37:34Wilson ON MY BALLOT.

1:37:37>> [laughter]

1:37:37>> BUT I WOULD BUT I WOULD SAY AND and and

1:37:39and and following my colleagues and got

1:37:42also to to the point of of Councilman

1:37:45Polensek is that I think that right we

1:37:49we have inherited a bad system.

1:37:53But but but our role both as citizens to

1:37:57push right the legislator to fix the

1:38:00laws and to pass the better laws and you

1:38:03as council to enact and pass laws is

1:38:07that sometimes there are good laws on

1:38:10the books and the problem is that

1:38:12they're just not being enforced and to

1:38:15and a way to kind of like

1:38:17rebuild that trust is the way that you

1:38:20know in the progressive era that yes

1:38:24Woodrow Wilson is also part of

1:38:27and in the back in the new deal and the

1:38:29great depression what the government

1:38:32greatest achievement it didn't you know

1:38:34that that

1:38:35Franklin D Roosevelt did not solve the

1:38:38depression World War II did right?

1:38:41>> II

1:38:41>> So so

1:38:42>> [laughter]

1:38:43>> World War II did right? That he the new

1:38:45deal did not get us out of the

1:38:47depression but what it did gave people

1:38:51is hope and the reason the big

1:38:53government is good government the

1:38:55government it can be good.

1:38:57>> hope hope is not a strategy. Right. Hope

1:39:01is not a strategy.

1:39:02>> with you but the idea is that government

1:39:05can be a good government that government

1:39:08can do good things and sometimes if the

1:39:11government just do their jobs right

1:39:14enforce the good laws that are actually

1:39:16on the books you don't need to kind of

1:39:18like try to catch

1:39:20up.

1:39:21>> be out of here by noon. I am going to

1:39:22try to keep the trains a little bit on

1:39:24time. We have one more member of the

1:39:25operations committee

1:39:27that has not had a chance to to talk yes

1:39:29I think we've teed it up

1:39:32Councilwoman Stephanie Howse-Jones 10

1:39:34minutes the floor is yours.

1:39:36>> Okay

1:39:38as

1:39:39you all were having a conversation on

1:39:41the 14th Amendment I am going to share

1:39:44with this body a master class on the

1:39:4614th Amendment that I was privileged

1:39:49enough to witness

1:39:51by attorney Sherrilyn Ifill

1:39:53at the policy summit

1:39:55and I will just I'm going to leave that

1:39:57there but one of the things I think that

1:40:00many of us in this body and even in the

1:40:02the of Cleveland understanding how our

1:40:04city was organized. In the charter of

1:40:06the city of Cleveland,

1:40:08section one, general powers. People talk

1:40:10about a lot of things of what the city

1:40:12of Cleveland should be doing, shouldn't

1:40:14be doing. In the charter, one of the

1:40:16sentences is one of the things that the

1:40:18city of Cleveland should be doing.

1:40:20May define, prohibit, abate, suppress,

1:40:24and prevent all things detrimental to

1:40:27the health,

1:40:28morals, comfort, safety, convenience,

1:40:33and welfare of the inhabitants of the

1:40:35city.

1:40:38First thing in the charter of Cleveland,

1:40:41what's the first thing that they said?

1:40:43It wasn't safety. I'm just going in this

1:40:45one sentence.

1:40:46It was health.

1:40:49Health.

1:40:51One of the fundamental things of health

1:40:54is eating.

1:40:58>> I don't know.

1:40:59>> So, I'm going to I I I just want to put

1:41:02a foundation right there. [music] And

1:41:05that's one of the things I'm going to

1:41:06tell you how I come into this space.

1:41:09I don't come into this space randomly,

1:41:11haphazardly.

1:41:13I am very clear on my charge on

1:41:15Cleveland City Council.

1:41:17My challenge happens

1:41:19the the conflict I find myself in is

1:41:22where people

1:41:24try to define things where I already

1:41:26know the definition of.

1:41:30My challenge is

1:41:32when I go against

1:41:34I'm I'm fighting with a law department.

1:41:36Just because you a lawyer don't mean you

1:41:37right.

1:41:41And

1:41:42I'm I'm I'm

1:41:43>> [laughter]

1:41:43>> I am I am I am a thousand percent

1:41:47percent sure. You see what I'm saying?

1:41:49Just because you a lawyer don't make you

1:41:51right. And we are in an environment

1:41:53where people think that your title going

1:41:55to define that you are right.

1:41:58So, I'm going to get to this gift card

1:42:00thing and what the issue is.

1:42:03>> [cough and clears throat]

1:42:05>> We did have um

1:42:07you know, that the and I always go talk

1:42:10about people tell people talk about my

1:42:11colleague Councilman Jones and what was

1:42:14going on there.

1:42:17The rendering from the Ohio auditor

1:42:19indicated it was unsubstantiated.

1:42:24Unsubstantiated.

1:42:28And in that decision last year that the

1:42:31auditor stated

1:42:35>> The complete sentence was

1:42:38The city should establish procedures to

1:42:41ensure that food gift cards are

1:42:43distributed only to qualified persons

1:42:45living in the appropriate ward. The city

1:42:48and not for profits are compliant with

1:42:50program and contractual requirements.

1:42:52Elected officials do not assist with

1:42:53distribution and that reimburses made to

1:42:56the nonprofit entities handling the the

1:42:58distribution of the cards are for actual

1:43:00cards issued.

1:43:02What that translated to is a law

1:43:05department writing contractual language

1:43:08that stated the gift card program will

1:43:11not be distributed at or during any

1:43:14council member coordinated programs.

1:43:17And therefore

1:43:19You

1:43:21think? But therefore

1:43:24me and the law director got into it

1:43:27where he highlights

1:43:29elected officials do not assist with

1:43:31distribution as if I did not know what

1:43:33the word assist mean.

1:43:36This is this is the problem that I have

1:43:38and people ask why are you all why you

1:43:40so angry Councilwoman Owens?

1:43:42Why you so why you so mad? This is one

1:43:46instance of no less than 500 instances

1:43:51of the foolishness that I have to go

1:43:53through.

1:43:54Where I have a law department trying to

1:43:56play me like I don't know what the word

1:43:59assist mean. And versus arguing with

1:44:01them cuz a lot of times people don't

1:44:02realize okay, I will go back and forth

1:44:05with you. I contacted the auditor

1:44:09that wrote the letter.

1:44:12And the auditor

1:44:15indicated

1:44:17a sis I was like, well, do I need to

1:44:18define what a sis means? They was like,

1:44:21no, a sis means that

1:44:23council members should not distribute

1:44:24the cards or

1:44:27a dictate who are the people who get the

1:44:28cards.

1:44:32This is what I'm talking about. I see it

1:44:34again, like I don't even get into all

1:44:36these details with people cuz I know

1:44:37what I know, but since we want to have

1:44:39this

1:44:40hearing,

1:44:41let's do it, right?

1:44:44Going even further when we want to look

1:44:46at gift cards and things of that nature,

1:44:48most people cannot even tell you what

1:44:50was the voter turnout last year doing a

1:44:51municipal election.

1:44:53Most people don't even know.

1:44:55And many of these were I will tell you

1:44:57the voter distribute No, the voter

1:45:01turnout in the city of Cleveland, if you

1:45:03look at individualized wards, it went

1:45:05from anywhere from 9%

1:45:08to 27%.

1:45:10For the mayor's election, it was 18%. So

1:45:13if people want to put on here that think

1:45:15gift cards is a is is is is a

1:45:17miraculously voter turnout, baby, we we

1:45:19are failing.

1:45:21We are failing.

1:45:23We are failing.

1:45:25>> [applause]

1:45:25>> In addition to that, when people want to

1:45:27talk about ethics, I'm like, well, what

1:45:29is what are ethics? We are talking about

1:45:32principles of right and wrong,

1:45:34fairness and honesty. We need to stop

1:45:37using big big words. And I'm going to

1:45:39always go back to the fundamental things

1:45:42of what we were charged to do.

1:45:45Our powers, right?

1:45:48Again, focusing on health,

1:45:51morals,

1:45:52safety.

1:45:54This is our job.

1:45:56This is our job. In a time

1:45:59where you look look at census data,

1:46:02right?

1:46:04Talk about the average household income

1:46:06in the city of Cleveland is 50 $56,000.

1:46:10Most people have no idea. I don't I

1:46:12don't think we should even consider what

1:46:13the poverty levels is and the poverty

1:46:15rates cuz that ain't even real. It's not

1:46:18real. And as we as me as a legislator,

1:46:22we don't take into consideration the

1:46:24true cost of living.

1:46:27Most people are so far removed because

1:46:30we have normalized the the the

1:46:32depression that people have literally

1:46:34been living in.

1:46:36Right now in the city of Cleveland,

1:46:39by yourself, you need to be by yourself,

1:46:42no kids, yourself, you need to be making

1:46:44around $40,000

1:46:46to exist.

1:46:49If you have a child by yourself, most of

1:46:53Do you know what how much you need to

1:46:54live at at the city of Cleveland?

1:46:56$71,000.

1:47:00Seven And what does that cover, you say?

1:47:03We are talking about food, housing,

1:47:05child care, transportation,

1:47:08medical, and some of the other stuff cuz

1:47:10it's it's it's a bucket for other and

1:47:11you can define the other.

1:47:13So, if one person with one job in the

1:47:15city of Cleveland needs to be making

1:47:16around $71,000 and the average citizen

1:47:19in the city of Cleveland household

1:47:20income is $56,000,

1:47:23we normalize depression and think we

1:47:25doing people a favor.

1:47:28And

1:47:29no one

1:47:31in this building or elsewhere

1:47:33is going to tell me

1:47:36that distributing

1:47:39a $25 gift cards where now I'm trying I

1:47:41got to get Councilman Polensek to try to

1:47:43get it up to $40 or $50, but I know I

1:47:46know you already said yes, but I hadn't

1:47:47talked to him.

1:47:49BUT YOU AIN'T GOING to convince me

1:47:51that in a time like this where the press

1:47:54is on everybody

1:47:57that I'm doing something wrong. Cuz like

1:47:59I said, I can stand on it. And if people

1:48:01would actually be in true community with

1:48:03people

1:48:04and actually participate in the annual

1:48:07holiday party that you do, you might

1:48:09actually get a good have a good time and

1:48:11actually see what fellowship is when you

1:48:13know the press is is so hard on people.

1:48:17And what it looks like for people that

1:48:20you know are dignified people.

1:48:23But you could do it in a way

1:48:25that is not so

1:48:28heavy and undignified. You can get a

1:48:30meal, your kids can play, we line

1:48:33dancing, but you could go over to the

1:48:34side and get your card. Most people

1:48:36around here don't know what that's like.

1:48:38And I will stand on this and I will have

1:48:41all of the attitude and be handsome.

1:48:43Because at the end of the day, I know I

1:48:45am fulfilling my duty as a member of

1:48:47this body. And I will go against the law

1:48:50department, the finance department, and

1:48:51any other body because I know what this

1:48:53charter say.

1:48:55I know what this charter say.

1:48:57And I'm going to continue to do my job

1:48:58accordingly. That's it.

1:49:03>> Would anybody like to follow up on any

1:49:04of that or um

1:49:06or should I just move us along with the

1:49:07agenda?

1:49:09>> I mean, I think like I you know, as I

1:49:10listen to you talk, I like my my

1:49:14First of all, by the way, you identify a

1:49:17a $25,000 deficit per year

1:49:21for

1:49:23citizens of Cleveland in terms of their

1:49:25average income versus the income they

1:49:26actually need to survive. And here's

1:49:28Trump saying, "I'm going to solve all

1:49:30problems that I've created with the

1:49:31economy with a one-time $5,000 payment."

1:49:34And I and I'm hearing you and I'm just

1:49:36going, "Yeah, I hope this corrupt

1:49:38bargain fails because it should, right?

1:49:40Like that's just not enough to make up

1:49:42for the harm he's done to the economy

1:49:44and that the you know, that that people

1:49:46are suffering under and have been

1:49:47suffering under for years."

1:49:49But I'm also listening to you talk and

1:49:50thinking like you are making the case so

1:49:53so profoundly for the the fact that what

1:49:57you are doing is attempting to serve the

1:49:59public interest and not trying to buy

1:50:01votes. And so like and that from a legal

1:50:04perspective,

1:50:05you know, I don't think any lawyer can

1:50:07listen to you presenting the way that

1:50:09you just presented and think like, "Oh,

1:50:11well, but still it's bribery." Because

1:50:13it's just clearly isn't. Like your

1:50:16motivations is have nothing to do with

1:50:18you trying to retain power. And and so

1:50:22that you know so so I I came in here

1:50:24thinking like this is like clearly it's

1:50:26not bribery. I like why are we having

1:50:28this conversation? I didn't know that

1:50:30that you'd had the confrontation with

1:50:32the auditor in the law department and

1:50:33all of that. And um

1:50:35>> It's a constant back and forth of the

1:50:36law department.

1:50:37>> You know and I think and and like and

1:50:38there is a a lawyerly instinct that you

1:50:42know that I have been that I have had

1:50:44ingrained in me and that I have grown up

1:50:46in as as a a person with a JD.

1:50:50That judges in particular are supposed

1:50:52to not only avoid impropriety but also

1:50:55avoid any appearance of impropriety, any

1:50:57appearance of bias.

1:50:59And and so you know so lawyers tend to

1:51:03create very big buffers between what is

1:51:07actually permissible and what and that

1:51:10you know by by that sort of strict terms

1:51:11of the law and then what they will

1:51:13advise you to do.

1:51:14And so like so they're going to tell you

1:51:16like steer so far away from an

1:51:19appearance of bribery that nobody could

1:51:21possibly accuse you of it. And that's

1:51:23the advice they're trying to give you.

1:51:25But I can also understand all of your

1:51:27frustration with just you know

1:51:28especially the way lawyers lawyers also

1:51:30have a bad habit of being like well I

1:51:32know the law so you have to do what I

1:51:33tell you. Instead of instead of you know

1:51:36explaining it to you in that way. I

1:51:38think if they had told you you know like

1:51:40hey you're not actually breaking the law

1:51:42but if you want to avoid any possible

1:51:44appearance of breaking the law then

1:51:45here's what I would recommend. And

1:51:47instead of doing that they're sitting

1:51:49there being like well the auditor tells

1:51:50you that you're not allowed to hand out

1:51:51the cards which you know is not what the

1:51:53auditor tells you.

1:51:54>> And I would just say just to end off on

1:51:56that when this goes back into the we've

1:51:58had these are going to continue to have

1:52:00these conversations about a proper

1:52:02public purpose and they always go back

1:52:04to this 1951 case law thing. And even in

1:52:07there it basically says that no one law

1:52:13is going to basically fulfill everything

1:52:15and that you have to look at each of the

1:52:17di you know the circumstances. And that

1:52:19is the problem that fails in this body

1:52:22is because again, we don't talk to each

1:52:23other. You don't know people don't

1:52:25aren't trying to even understand

1:52:28the actual what's the goal? What are we

1:52:31trying to accomplish with this program,

1:52:33with this investment, things of that

1:52:34nature. And people just have like to

1:52:36have a blank check to be like, "No, no,

1:52:37no, no, no." And I would like to

1:52:39encourage my colleagues to step back

1:52:41into our collective power, to realize we

1:52:45are the ones to determine the rules and

1:52:47need partners to help us get to the end

1:52:49goal and not be contrarians.

1:52:53>> Thank you, Councilman. I think that we

1:52:55have

1:52:56set up a few things here. I think that

1:52:57we've

1:52:58By the way, I did directly, personally

1:53:00invite the law director to this hearing,

1:53:03not to be on the table, but to be in the

1:53:05room and potentially to be able to

1:53:06answer questions should they come up

1:53:07later.

1:53:08Obviously, that invitation was not

1:53:11taken.

1:53:12I think we've established a few things

1:53:14here and we've got about 5 minutes left.

1:53:15So,

1:53:16I think we've established that helping

1:53:18people in the neighborhood is a good

1:53:21government duty. It's a responsibility

1:53:23of elected officials to serve the people

1:53:24that elected them. That the distribution

1:53:27of of food cards is itself a moral

1:53:30clarity and and a good thing to help

1:53:31people who are struggling. And the only

1:53:34issue would be the transparency and how

1:53:35we communicate this issue and and making

1:53:37sure that everybody understands how the

1:53:38program works ahead of time and

1:53:40and on all of that.

1:53:42I'm going to forego my 10 minutes

1:53:43because I don't have it. I wanted to

1:53:45respect everybody's time. I know we've

1:53:46got places to go and things to do. I

1:53:48said at the top of this meeting that I

1:53:50would divide the remaining time by the

1:53:52number of council members who wanted to

1:53:53also speak. I see four people in the

1:53:55room and I see five minutes. That means

1:53:57everybody has one minute. I'm going to

1:53:59go in order of attendance today. So,

1:54:01Councilman Sly was here first, followed

1:54:02by Councilman Jones, Councilman Shaw,

1:54:04and Councilman Starr. I will give each

1:54:06of you one minute

1:54:07and that is how we will round out

1:54:10>> Joe Jones one minute.

1:54:11>> He's got one minute, but Councilman Sly

1:54:13starts first with his minute. So, you've

1:54:15got one minute each.

1:54:16>> All right, Mr. Chairman. I'll be brief.

1:54:18Just a point, Mr. Chairman. Just a

1:54:20point, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to yield

1:54:21my time and I would like to give my time

1:54:23to Mr. Star.

1:54:24>> Okay.

1:54:25Councilman Sly.

1:54:26>> Thank you. I I will say that I think

1:54:29that one of the challenges we have in

1:54:30this community is that people can play

1:54:32corruption with cynicism and everything

1:54:34that you do not like is not

1:54:35automatically corrupt. That word gets

1:54:38thrown out very frequently. I am

1:54:40intrigued by the idea of of how we need

1:54:43to work to shape what the acceptability

1:54:45of discretion is and frankly

1:54:48I don't say this with any level of

1:54:49judgment. I don't believe that the

1:54:51community I represent is looking for me

1:54:54to hand out gift cards. not. However, I

1:54:56respect the needs of other parts of town

1:54:59and other

1:55:00elected officials and I think that we

1:55:02need to do more to understand that

1:55:04ethical disagreements are not inherently

1:55:06corruption in and of themselves as well.

1:55:08My my my question is when

1:55:13if ethical or illegal behavior is

1:55:15happening, who as an individual elected

1:55:19official am I primarily accountable to?

1:55:22Is it the obligation of the voters to

1:55:24hold me accountable, the law department,

1:55:27other branches of government, my

1:55:29colleagues, some combination thereof

1:55:31because I think what people get

1:55:33frustrated by is when they see

1:55:36misbehavior and they expect others to be

1:55:39held accountable, it's not clear who

1:55:42holds them accountable.

1:55:45Sorry, Chris. Well,

1:55:47>> [laughter]

1:55:47>> and I only ask because because I'm only

1:55:49picking on you because you're sitting

1:55:50next to me. If my residents are unhappy

1:55:53with something he does, you know, he was

1:55:55duly elected by his residents and I

1:55:58would argue that it's not up to my

1:56:00residents or the media or whomever to

1:56:02micromanage who the voters of Ward 11

1:56:04decided to elect them.

1:56:06>> Would anybody like to

1:56:09have a run at

1:56:10>> For the interest of time, all of the

1:56:12above.

1:56:13>> [laughter]

1:56:13>> Right, it should be a combination and I

1:56:15think right as

1:56:17my colleague said, if only 20% of people

1:56:21show up to vote, Um, that's on us,

1:56:25right? That's on the citizens. If

1:56:27citizens are not are not are continuing

1:56:31to voting a corrupt government, that's

1:56:33on the citizens, right?

1:56:36Um, but I do think that yes, you have

1:56:39the responsibility both this this body,

1:56:43there's a law, there's

1:56:45court, there is other things that you

1:56:49should be right hold you to an account.

1:56:53But first and foremost, right? It should

1:56:55be the citizens who vote you and the

1:56:58duty of the citizens who vote you is to

1:57:00hold you accountable. I agree that, you

1:57:03know, your constituents should not have

1:57:06a say

1:57:06>> [music]

1:57:07>> in his election, right? Cuz they are not

1:57:10his constituents. But, but I think that

1:57:13as a body,

1:57:15you should be accountable to the

1:57:17citizens of Cleveland as

1:57:20as a whole, right? And and they should

1:57:22hold you accountable as well. Like it's

1:57:25it In a democracy, we all participate.

1:57:28>> I'm going to be held accountable to TV

1:57:2920 who has us for 2 more minutes. Um,

1:57:32Councilwoman Jones Councilwoman Shaw, 1

1:57:34minute.

1:57:35>> Uh, I'll make it quick. I appreciate

1:57:37everyone's time this

1:57:39after almost afternoon now in the

1:57:41committee's time.

1:57:43Just I think one of the things

1:57:44everything Councilwoman House Jones

1:57:46mentioned, right? I think we're being

1:57:48disempowered and made to feel like not

1:57:51being provided the full facts. I think

1:57:52it's really frustrating from the law

1:57:54department. If the administration has an

1:57:56issue with how council members are

1:58:00allocating these things or have issues

1:58:02with it, they should just tell us that

1:58:03instead of saying that there's this, you

1:58:05know, rigmarole of the law and not

1:58:07trying to hide behind the law. And I I

1:58:10I hear the frustrations. I've only been

1:58:12here less than a year and I'm really

1:58:14frustrated, so I can't imagine for the

1:58:15council members that have been here

1:58:16longer how how frustrating and this must

1:58:19be. But I want to just make two quick

1:58:21points and

1:58:22don't think we have time for questions,

1:58:24but

1:58:25we're talking about food cards, gift

1:58:26cards, all these things, the

1:58:27discretionary money.

1:58:30We're giving out millions of dollars to

1:58:33billionaires, as other colleagues have

1:58:34already mentioned. Like, the

1:58:36administration is wanting us to not

1:58:38focus on that, and that to me is the

1:58:40focus. Uh

1:58:42that's my minute. Uh the final thing

1:58:43I'll just say is at I encourage us to

1:58:46also, yes, think about our own power in

1:58:48setting what proper public purpose is,

1:58:50and remind us that we have a duty to our

1:58:53residents that when there's rules and

1:58:55administrative bureaucracy, we have to

1:58:57be willing to push through and challenge

1:58:59those as well in order to serve our

1:59:01residents. It is not simply good enough

1:59:03for us to say that bureaucracy or

1:59:05administrative things are holding us

1:59:07back. That is the power vested in us by

1:59:09the charter, and we should employ it.

1:59:10Thank you.

1:59:12>> Councilman Starr.

1:59:15>> I'll be real brief, um Mr. Chairman.

1:59:17One,

1:59:19do which one of you Do you live in

1:59:21Cleveland?

1:59:22Do you live in Cleveland?

1:59:24Do you live in Cleveland?

1:59:26Two, are you from Cleveland?

1:59:28Are you from Cleveland?

1:59:30>> From meaning born here or what?

1:59:32>> Yeah, born and raised.

1:59:33>> Partially.

1:59:35>> Okay. You went to You went to CMSD?

1:59:38Cleveland Metropolitan School District?

1:59:43Okay.

1:59:44I always ask that question cuz everybody

1:59:46who ain't from Cleveland always got a

1:59:47opinion about what Cleveland does.

1:59:49Everybody who ain't from Cleveland,

1:59:51ain't born and raised in Cleveland,

1:59:53going to tell us what we're doing wrong

1:59:54wrong or right, and that all often times

1:59:57has a problem. Second, I would ask um to

1:59:59the chair, what was the actual sole

2:00:01purpose of this hearing today? Through

2:00:03the Through the chair.

2:00:04>> Uh this was a public discussion of

2:00:06ethics in government.

2:00:09>> What's your What's your What degree do

2:00:10you study in?

2:00:12History.

2:00:13>> Law and political science.

2:00:15>> Philosophy.

2:00:16>> And what you study in, chair, yourself?

2:00:20Chair, what did you study? What did you

2:00:22study?

2:00:22>> Uh I did not achieve a college degree.

2:00:25>> So, we're talking about ethics in a

2:00:27public setting. Um I would like to make

2:00:29a request. Is it possible chair for you

2:00:31to bring this committee hearing um, to

2:00:33war five to have it at a neighborhood

2:00:34meeting to talk about this discussion?

2:00:37>> Uh, we can talk about having an

2:00:38operations committee in the public, but

2:00:39did you have a question cuz I I wanted

2:00:41to wrap this up at noon.

2:00:42>> Yes, my question is can we have this

2:00:44setting cuz this more in-depth

2:00:46conversation in the public setting in

2:00:48the neighborhood so residents can hear

2:00:50some of the things that are going on so

2:00:51we can make it um, the equitable

2:00:53decisions that we need to make when it

2:00:55comes to

2:00:56This is taxpayer dollars, right?

2:00:59So this the people's dollars and we're

2:01:00trying to tell us how to spend the

2:01:01people's dollar if they won't give cards

2:01:03or not. And then my last point is

2:01:06um,

2:01:07I think us bringing in this conversation

2:01:10and we directly targeted and mentioning

2:01:12um, one war council person's some type

2:01:15of issue just seems as if it's a

2:01:16targeted and motive and I do not agree

2:01:19with that type of practice. So I I would

2:01:21like to request if we could possibly

2:01:23bring operations meeting um, to a war

2:01:25five neighborhood so we can explain to

2:01:27the

2:01:29Let me make sure I say it right the

2:01:30accurate number. I have more than 25,000

2:01:32residents. Um, 71% of the residents are

2:01:35living near or at the poverty um,

2:01:38guidelines. And then over 52,000 of our

2:01:40household in war five earn less than

2:01:42$25,000. So giving them a $25 gift card

2:01:46is some type of uh, way to vote when we

2:01:48had the lowest voter turnout in war

2:01:50five. So I would just want to make sure

2:01:51my one core request is if we have can we

2:01:54actually bring this ethical dilemma in

2:01:57government panel discussion to war five

2:02:00for a community meet and under your

2:02:01leadership chair to be able to discuss

2:02:03this to the residents in war five so you

2:02:05can understand what we deal with and we

2:02:07can understand what the decision is

2:02:08being made in city hall which is going

2:02:10to direct taxpayer dollars that they are

2:02:12supposed to be entitled to as well.

2:02:14>> I will see what we can do. Um, thank you

2:02:16everybody for being here. I appreciate

2:02:17this. We have these conversations all

2:02:19the time in the back rooms. I'm glad we

2:02:20can have one outside in front of

2:02:21everybody. I think it's really good for

2:02:23us to talk about ethics in government

2:02:24and I think we've achieved some of

2:02:25matter some amount of consensus. I think

2:02:28we've all agreed that food gift cards

2:02:29are a good program. That we should be

2:02:30able to do them, that we should be able

2:02:31to do them as needed by the ward for the

2:02:33people that we serve and represent and

2:02:35that the law department needs to kick

2:02:36rocks if they want to say no to us

2:02:38because this is a good allocation of

2:02:40public funds that directly serves the

2:02:42needs of the people in the ward. So, I

2:02:44think we've achieved that. Thank you

2:02:46very much for being here today. I was

2:02:48going to gavel this out.

2:02:50I think I should just go ahead and do

2:02:52that. This hearing

2:02:54operations committee is called to a

2:02:56close until the call of the chair.

2:03:05>> [music]

2:03:11[music]

2:03:18[music]

2:03:25[music]