2026-10-19 - Health, Human Services and the Arts Committee

16:19The Arts Committee now begins. He's 1244. We do. I want to hear them first, the public comments.

16:39So what do we have? We have the list for Richmond Road. We have a center. We need Clevelanders here, but uh...

17:12Alright, you guys can proceed. You can come up front.

17:17You're the first thing, the one for Richmond Road? Yeah, Mike Burcons. Yeah, you'll say your name.

17:22You know, I'm Mike, Mike Burcons. Um, I'm uh, speaking on the lead, um, standards and the new things that we're talking about.

17:53Um, I think I'm the busiest lead risk assessor in Cleveland or close to it. And I just want to, want to express, I've read about the changes and I think they're excellent.

18:01I think, um, you know, going from two years is, is hardness for a lot of landlords and landlords who take good care of their properties.

18:10You know, that's a, that's a really big expense for them. So even though it's against my self-interest, you know, to go from two to five years, I think it's good for the program.

18:18Um, I just want to invite anybody here on any day to call me up and say, "Hey, I'd like to go on some visits with you."

18:25Because I just want to tell you what you're going to find. It's 25% of the visits we go on.

18:29Part of, part of my service is I give an informal free walkthrough to tell them anything they need to fix.

18:35And uh, you'll find 25% of the time there's a huge punch list. It's a house that's not even close.

18:40And there's a good chance I'm never going to hear from them again.

18:44And then 50% of the time you're going to see I'm going to give them a punch list that's moderate.

18:48And I almost guarantee you that half the time you're going to sit there and go, "Wow, really? Like all of those flaws that you're mentioning are kind of in my house.

18:56They're flaws that are in a normal house that's lived in."

19:00And I just think it'll open your eyes to that.

19:03And then 25% of the time we're going to go to a house that's in really good condition.

19:06You know, I've got two kids, one's 11 and 14, better condition than my house.

19:11And we all are going to agree this should pass, but then if I say, "Hey, let's take 10 minutes.

19:15We'll find a dozen things that are not perfect about them."

19:19And technically, by law, those are all technically lead hazards.

19:23Every little imperfection in the house.

19:25You go to my house, my guess if we go to all of your houses, they all exist.

19:28But the law doesn't differentiate.

19:31And this, the reason I'm talking about this is this puts every, by the way, I did yours about four years ago.

19:36I remember you didn't, you were on the phone talking about business, so your head was down the whole time.

19:40It puts us all in a bad position unless there is something that says, "Okay, this is a normal risk assessment."

19:50But there's a certain amount of subjectiveness the inspector has.

19:55Because if not anybody who says this house is perfect and without a flaw,

20:01it just makes us feel like, one, we're putting ourselves at risk, our license at risk, because that just doesn't exist.

20:08No house doesn't have a flaw here or there.

20:12And that's the only thing I'm asking is that the standard, it's great that it's a risk assessment,

20:17but I think it can be a risk assessment with some caveats.

20:20So there is some discretion on the inspector to be able to pass a house that isn't 100% perfect, because no house is perfect.

20:29And please feel free to call me, go on some risk assessments with me, and I think you'll see what I'm talking about.

20:34If anybody has any questions, please reach out to me and thank you.

20:38Mr. Chairman, since he's a professional, can I ask an example of what he's talking about that exists in all houses?

20:44Yeah, okay, so I'll give, I mean, this isn't even hard.

20:47The other day I was at a duplex, that thing was in great condition, as I'm sitting there taking pictures of the outside.

20:53The third floor peak, the fascia, siding, siding, but one quarter of one side of the siding was missing.

21:01And if you zoomed in, you could see that 80% of the wood paint was perfect, 20% wasn't.

21:08But I told him, I go, I know this is what you're going to hear.

21:12You're going to have to hire somebody who's probably a roofer with a ladder to get up that high to put that over.

21:19And he's like, you're trying to tell me, how does it make it any safe?

21:22Because if there's lead paint behind there, there's still lead paint behind there, it still deteriorates, it can still get into the wood.

21:28And he's like, you're also telling me that this standard, that we're trying to make housing affordable to the poorest people in the region,

21:35this is a standard that if you had a rental house in Bratton Hall, in Rocky River, they wouldn't say, that's no problem.

21:42It's a problem. And I can honestly say, that isn't making a child any sicker.

21:49But I've got to take this picture, and they're doing their job, because the standard is this law.

21:54I'm not upset with them for doing their job, but I'm going to take this picture, I submitted it.

22:01My guess is it's going to kick back for that.

22:03And it's because that's the standard, but what I'm saying is, we should be able to say, yeah, I saw that.

22:08I believe this is within our discretion to say this isn't going to be getting the kids sick.

22:13The other issue is basements. And here's the reason why.

22:16100-year-old houses do not have perfect basements. We all wish they did.

22:21And the problem is, we're now pretty much forced to tell people, you're going to have to spend $10,000 sometimes to clean up a non-perfect basement,

22:29or you could put a lock on the door, and not give tenants access. And that's what they're doing.

22:34Now, what that's doing is, in the duplex, the single mom who's not very wealthy,

22:38does not have easy access to a free washer and dryer, now has got to go to a laundromat.

22:43And you could disagree with this, but yes, there are risks of allowing tenant access to a non-perfect basement.

22:51But there's also a downside to not being able to give people free washer and dryer,

22:57and their kids won't be able to have clean clothes as often.

23:00So it's almost like, yeah, we'd love to get rid of car accident deaths, and we could do that by lowering the speed limit down to 15 miles an hour.

23:07I do think it's somewhat parallel here, is there is a way, we're never going to get rid of all lead safety issues

23:15when we have a big stock of houses that are 100 years old, without knocking them all down, and that's not feasible.

23:21But there are certain things that we could decide, okay, this is something that we have discretion with,

23:26because we do want landlords to be able to give access to basements, so they can have laundry services for their tenants.

23:34I think you asked a question 20 minutes ago, and I don't even know if I answered it.

23:39>> You did, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

23:41>> You know what?

24:06>> Yeah, Mr. Chair, I've done risk assessments and clearance exams, and I think his point is that

24:12a lot of inspections could visually fail immediately and quickly.

24:17And that is an issue that every risk assessor has to grapple with.

24:23But I think that if you just follow the instructions and rules of the license, it'll be fine.

24:34>> You were doing it when there were clearance exams, right?

24:37>> I did both.

24:38>> Okay.

24:39>> There's, risk assessments are different than clearance exams where every little flaw is technically a lead hazard.

24:51And I guarantee you all of our houses have a dozen of them, let alone, the only time a house is close to perfect is right after a flip, right after a turn, when they're getting rent ready.

25:00And even then, there's a couple flaws, but as soon as you get someone in there living for a month, even good tenants with dogs and kids, any single ding in the paint.

25:10>> It's also worth noting, Mr. Chair, that every risk assessment is a snapshot in time.

25:15Any unit can undergo changes within 24 hours of a risk assessment.

25:19>> Tell me that.

25:20>> So, I mean, you can walk in and a place can be pristine on Tuesday and completely trashed on Wednesday.

25:25It's just, it's a matter of, so if somebody walks in and punches a bunch of holes in the wall, all of a sudden it's not going to pass the risk assessment.

25:33It might have passed the day before.

25:34So anything can happen to a unit.

25:37A risk assessment is a snapshot in time, and that's what it's used in.

25:42>> Yeah, I'm not talking about poles punching walls.

25:44But I mean, just opening and closing doors, opening and closing doors from a unit that was just turned as rent ready.

25:51You get somebody in there who's opened and closed the bathroom doors in a month 200 times.

25:57All of a sudden there's going to be maybe a little scrape there.

26:00I mean, little things like that are all technically lead hazards.

26:04And my point is, you definitely need quality control on inspectors.

26:09I go into some places and I'm like, how did this get passed?

26:12No doubt about it.

26:13I believe that there's a way to do control without the standard being perfect because I think the perfect standard.

26:19Maybe it's possible after a turn and nobody's living there.

26:22After somebody's lived there for a month, it's just not possible.

26:25So I don't totally believe there could be quality control.

26:27I totally think there can be accountability for risk assessors.

26:29You can go into a place six months after somebody passed and just say, okay, there's no way that this was.

26:35I know the snapshot in time, but there's some obvious things that are, hey, this is a lived in house.

26:41This is what happens in a lived in house after six months verse.

26:44There's no way that this thing was decent six months ago.

26:47So I'm not arguing against accountability or quality control.

26:50>> Mr. Chairman, so just listening to our colleagues speak and the distinguished gentleman.

26:57I'm sorry, what's your name?

26:58>> My name's Mike.

26:59>> Mike, to hear them both speak, it seems like to me that you can't resolve the issue.

27:06It's not resolvable.

27:08I mean, it seems like, what are we doing if you can't resolve the issue?

27:12And that's what this program was supposed to be about, was to raise all of this money that we raised.

27:19We gave all this money from opera funds, and this is where it comes down to having Mr. Chairman consultants in place before we do stuff like this.

27:30Because what it sounds like to me is that we've thrown a lot of money at this, but listening to your testimony, Mike,

27:37and then listening to our colleagues' testimony is like, so if I come in and I get a clean test today, tomorrow, it may not be the same.

27:47And it's all of these little small things that could go wrong that could change the conditions of the house in a snapshot within a month or a year from now.

27:58>> I kind of disagree with you.

27:59>> Yeah.

28:00>> I'm not the expert, but I disagree with you a little bit.

28:02If I have 100 people, I create systems in place, but if I get it down to 50 or to 40, other children will benefit, control things.

28:14Then if I see issues and concerns, Councilman, on the way, that I'll put that into my quality so I can monitor what's going.

28:23This new -- let me say this.

28:26I probably didn't talk with an expert to talk with you.

28:30>> Rebecca Maurer.

28:33>> Right.

28:34She's putting systems in place so we can look at quality.

28:37We had a quality control.

28:41>> Containment.

28:42>> Can we knock it down from 100% to 60 to 40?

28:48I mean, 60 to 50 to 40%.

28:50And that means a lot to me.

28:53I can never -- I can never hit 100% because as high as you can go with anything is 100%, really.

29:02We can take it and trust eye-dropping it.

29:04We can study it, what we're doing.

29:06And we can keep making it go south.

29:08>> There's a term like it's called de minimis, a de minimis amount of imperfections with ODH and the HUD.

29:16Basically, if it's de minimis, I'm going to get it wrong.

29:18It's like 10% of surface area.

29:20If it's indoor, 20% might be backwards.

29:22Then you don't have to use an RRP specialist.

29:27So, I mean, there are -- now, I do believe something like maybe de minimis amounts don't have to be determined as lead hazards.

29:35I mean, you know, de minimis amount.

29:37And I just -- I do believe you can have accountability.

29:40But I do agree with you on one point.

29:42There is no way a 100-year-old house is ever going to be completely safe of having -- you know, even if you put siding on it, well, the lead paint's still behind the siding.

29:52It still can fall down.

29:53>> I'm there.

29:55>> Thank you.

29:56Thank you for letting me speak.

29:57Thank you, Mike.

29:58>> I'm only going to do three minutes.

29:59I have a lot to go through.

30:00And I should have said that later.

30:01With Zach, please.

30:06And I can't pronounce your last name.

30:08So if I get it wrong, I don't want to get it wrong.

30:10I mean, no disrespect.

30:13>> No problem.

30:14My name is Zach Ravinelli.

30:16I am a local mom and pop landlord out of Slavic Village in the city of Cleveland.

30:22I own four rental properties.

30:24I am local on boots on the ground.

30:26I live in South Euclid.

30:28I'm totally in support of these changes.

30:30As a local landlord when this ordinance first came out, the every two-year requirement for every property was expensive.

30:38It's every two years we have to do this.

30:40My rents are lower than what the market rents are.

30:43And one thing I saw when this came out was rent specifically all over the city, but Slavic Village, an area when I first started buying, was $800 to $900 a month for a single-family home.

30:55And today, if you go on Zillow, you can find properties for as high as $1,600.

30:59And so you could see that rent has definitely increased.

31:02And I do believe one of the reasons is the every two-year requirement.

31:06And so one thing I've done with my properties just from the beginning of buying them, I don't own a property with any wood windows.

31:12I have vinyl windows.

31:13I've replaced some porches.

31:15I've put a significant amount of money into these properties.

31:18One issue that I had with the original ordinance was if I'm a landlord that's doing the right thing, putting the right amount of money into these homes, why am I still being held to the same standard as somebody across the street that's done absolutely nothing, is not complying with the ordinance.

31:33And so I'm definitely in support of these changes.

31:36I think this is a long time coming, and I think this puts us more in line with a city like Toledo.

31:52And going kind of off of what Mike said, too, is the goal of the ordinance, in my opinion, is to get these homes updated at some point.

31:57The main sources of the lead dust that we're seeing is wood windows, wood painted porches, wood siding that has no vinyl siding or it's painted.

32:02Those components are replaced and the landlords make those investments. The chances of a child being poisoned go down significantly.

32:09You'll never make a home 100%, but when those components are changed, the chances drop dramatically.

32:16Yes, yes, tremendously.

32:18So, and one thing I'm looking at, too, is by doing this, in my opinion, it will alleviate the city in a way that will free them up to be able to go after the landlords that have not responded to this at all, have no intentions of responding to this.

32:32And also reward the ones that are trying to do the right thing, trying to stay on par with the ordinance itself.

32:40So, and I am a licensed risk assessor, and I'm a licensed abatement, lead abatement contractor as well.

32:46I do carry both licenses, but I'm definitely in support of these changes.

32:51And I think it's very important right now to maintain the local landlords that we do have, at least in my experience, we do a better job than these out of state companies, than these corporations.

33:03I'm being solicited on a weekly basis. Let's buy your house. I've gotten mailers that are also almost like fear mongering with the ordinance, knowing that a lot of us local landlords might not have the capital compared to some of these large corporations.

33:17But I think it's so critical to maintain the local mom and pop style landlords.

33:23Like I said, I'm a boots on the ground landlord. I was literally cutting my grass this weekend in Slavic Village, so I do a lot of my own stuff.

33:30And the tenants that I have have been with me for years. They stay with me for years. They're not looking for a new place just because, you know, it's hard to find those types of landlords today.

33:40So a lot of the houses out there today, you're calling 1-800 number to, you know, get a showing or 1-800 number to get maintenance done.

33:48So it's just, I think this is a good change to reward the people that are trying to do the right thing.

33:54I like your system. I like your system. How to monitor, quality control, control, the whole nine yards.

34:03And it's about our children. That's what it's about.

34:07So if I may ask, Mr. Chairman, to the distinguished gentleman, what is your cost every two years?

34:17So roughly, it varies. You'll find people as low as $400, $450 per unit to $500 per unit.

34:26And so depending on how many units you have, if you have four or five units in total, you times that by the $400 to $500 amount, and it comes, you know, over $2,000 roughly every two years.

34:38And so while it might not look significant with property taxes also going up as well, it's another thing that you kind of have to either roll into rent, which a lot of landlords are doing, or you don't on the flip side, you kind of eat those costs.

34:54So but at the end of the day, when you give somebody the ability to get a five year certificate, that $500 spread amongst five years obviously is not nearly the type of hit the every two years would be.

35:05And again, it will be rewarding people for doing the right thing. And what I mean by that is we're not giving a five year certificate to somebody that's got wood windows, painted wood porches.

35:15These would be properties that have gone through that rehabilitation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, so much for your comments today, colleagues.

35:29Very good. All right. Thank you. We're gonna get started with the presentation now. Let's please come up to the table as well.

35:55Thank you very much. Happy to introduce everybody at the table. Good morning council members. My name is Rebecca Moore.

36:13I am senior advisor to Mayor Justin Bibb for lead accountability and I've had the pleasure of working with director Margolis and director Martin O'Toole on updates to the lead safe certificate law.

36:24We've also had the pleasure in the last almost, I mean, year long process how the many roles that I've had working alongside the lead safe Cleveland coalition to develop refine and review the amendments to the lead safe certificate law that you have before you today.

36:43So I'd like to invite the lead safe Cleveland coalition, I honor blue Donald who I still sometimes called director because of her prior role as director of building and housing and Hazel remish, who is not at the table today but is behind us to give brief remarks from the lead safe Cleveland coalition and then we'll turn to the presentation.

37:05Good morning, everyone. Good to see everyone.

37:08I am a young of the Donald policy committee chair for the lead safe Cleveland coalition and vice president of the Midwest region for enterprise community partners.

37:16I'm proud to represent the lead safe Cleveland coalition and share its feedback when the city administrations proposed strategic path forward for Cleveland's lead law.

37:25I'm really grateful for this opportunity to collaborate with the city administration through this process and contribute the knowledge we've gained over the last seven years of doing this work.

37:34It feels like a lifetime right that we've been going through this, but as one of the original architects of the current law, this process is encouraging and needed the lead safe law was not originally passed to remain static forever.

37:48I think that's really important to note as we have the conversation and discussion today, a revision and refocus of the current lead safe law is needed to reflect what we have all learned along the way to protect more children from land poisoning.

38:01The coalition has carefully reviewed the recommendations contained in the proposal following review and a vote of coalition members, the coalition supports the proposed changes subject to certain safeguards.

38:13The full results of the vote, along with the comments from the members are included in your packet. I also printed out some if you happen to want a printed copy, I can pass those around.

38:24Councilman Jones looks like you're all passing them down. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. I'm going to provide a brief overview of those results but first, just a little bit of background.

38:35As we all recall in October 2024, Executive Order 2024-03 was signed, accelerating progress toward fewer lead poisoning was the name of that executive order.

38:46This order created a sense of urgency to convene the Cleveland Lead Safe Coalition's policy committee to better understand its impact.

38:54Based on feedback from stakeholders throughout the city, including a few people I see before me today have been involved in that process and or attended a few of our meetings.

39:06The coalition's policy committee and its working groups met eight times over the following or preceding year and a half.

39:12As part of this process earlier this year, we developed five specific recommendations to strengthen the city's lead law. Those recommendations were standardizing lead risk assessments, creating a lifetime certification pathway for properties that have undergone full abatement, extending certification periods for lower risk properties, establishing a lead safe up buzz person, and aligning the law with state and federal guidelines.

39:41The coalition membership approved the recommendations and in April of 2026, they were submitted to city leadership.

39:49Several of those recommendations are reflected in the city's current proposals and the city also has adopted the recommendation to appoint a lead safe up buzz person.

39:58On September 25th of 2026, the coalition hosted a special convening of its members to provide an opportunity for the city's director of lead accountability, Rebecca Moore, and director of public health, Dr. David Margolias, to present the administration's proposed changes to the law.

40:14Thank you again for taking time out. I think it was a very good meeting. Thank you. It feels like yesterday too. It does.

40:22The proposal also was shared with members by email, meaning members of the coalition. The membership then was asked to vote on these recommendations.

40:31To support a neutral and consistent process, all coalition members received the same proposed changes and voting questions, and voting was limited to one response per person.

40:41Coalition members considered each proposed change and expressed broad support for modernizing the law while preserving strong public health protections.

40:49Based on 46 member responses, the coalition supports the proposed changes, the Cleveland's lead safe certification law with qualifications.

40:58I want to go over the proposals that received broad support. First, extending the lead safe certification term from two to three years. That's the general overall creating a graduated certificate schedule that rewards meaningful investments and reduced lead risk.

41:16Strengthening local risk assessment and inspection standards with transparent rulemaking and appropriate safeguards. Adopting HUD's non-target housing definition.

41:27Strengthening tenant protections against retaliation. Improving relocation assistance oversight and enhancing the role of the lead safe board.

41:37And advancing the additional administrative amendments.

41:43The coalition encouraged further consideration on two proposals that did not receive strong support as written.

41:49However, in keeping with the collaborative nature of this process, the city administration has made changes to the legislation in response to that feedback, and we are appreciative of that. Thank you.

42:00The vote reflects the coalition's commitment to a strong practical and accountable framework that prevents Cleveland children from being poisoned by lead hazards in their home.

42:09Coalition looks forward to working collaboratively to translate these recommendations into clear legislative language and accountable implementation.

42:19>> That's all I have. >> I don't know if there are any questions, but thank you for your continued commitment to making Cleveland a safe city.

42:25>> Thank you so much. We'll go through the entire presentation. I think four questions, if that works for everyone?

42:33>> Yes, thank you. >> Because I know there's a lot more to get through.

42:35>> Mr. Chairman, if the distinguished lady, Ms. Ayan and Donald, will be, those are the questions I want to ask her based upon her presentation.

42:44>> You're going to stick around?

42:45>> Well, sure. I was going to, I can stick around.

42:47>> Thank you.

42:48>> They're quick questions.

42:49>> Oh, Mr. Johnson, feel free. Okay.

42:51>> Yes, I'll sit back there and come back.

42:53>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won't be long here. How many members, you said it's, how many total members?

43:00>> 46 members voted out of the coalition. Technically, we say that there are 500 members to the overall coalition.

43:07That is our email kind of subscription list. So throughout the years, everyone's welcome to the coalition.

43:13So the email ask of the vote went out to everyone. The policy committee is a little smaller and we also had a policy working group.

43:20>> I got it. I just want to hit the questions hardcore.

43:23>> You got it.

43:24>> So how many working members do we have?

43:26>> The working group was about, the work policy working group was about 12.

43:34>> Do we have any members here? Or any of those working members?

43:38>> Yes, members here.

43:39>> Okay, two. So one of the tenants is a working member. So, okay. So then the next question, Mr. Chairman.

43:48>> Well, you can raise your hand, Councilman.

43:51>> Yes.

43:53>> So that's excellent. So, Mr. Chairman, so we have 500 working members. How much more-

43:58>> No, no, no. 500 coalition members.

44:00>> 500 coalition members, but how do we determine who's a member or not?

44:05>> Anybody that says they want to be a part of the coalition and join the fight to make Cleveland Lead Safe.

44:10As far as the policy committee, we have probably at least 50 people on our email list for policy committee.

44:20>> So are these the people who make up this coalition, the Lead Safe Coalition? Or is it just kind of like open-ended?

44:26>> It's open-ended. We have a formal steering committee, right? Those are appointed positions more like a board that you would consider for a non-profit.

44:35We have an executive committee. Those are appointed positions.

44:38>> So how many people or actual people who make up this policy and work and do this?

44:41>> Approximately 50.

44:43>> So there's 50 people who actually, over the last seven years, have been doing this work?

44:49>> It ebbs and flows, yes.

44:50>> Okay.

44:51>> Depends on how many people come to the meetings, Councilman.

44:59>> Mr. Chairman, the next question is 90 million was invested by public and private investors, is that correct?

45:05Or what is the actual number?

45:08>> Approximately $90 million has been committed.

45:11I would not use the word invested to the Lead Safe Home Fund throughout the past seven years.

45:17>> So how much, Mr. Chairman, to Mrs. Donald, have been put into the program so far?

45:23>> Through the Chair to the Councilman, I don't have current numbers.

45:27However, I would welcome the opportunity because we are fast approaching several deadlines.

45:32Close-out ARPA award is one to come back before the committee and give a debrief of the Lead Safe Home Fund.

45:39>> Do we have a close estimate, Mr. Chairman, to Mrs. Donald?

45:42>> I don't.

45:43>> Anything you can give us?

45:44>> No, I know my last, but the last number I have is like quarters, at least a quarter old, so I don't want to misrepresent that.

45:50>> Do we have any figures that we can throw out at the table to the Council to work with?

45:54Any money that's come in from private-public partnership for this investment?

45:58>> I mean, we've spent over, I mean, over $35 million has been spent.

46:04But I don't, we will fully spend or should very close these fully spend our ARPA award of $13 million.

46:11So that's the one that this council body administers or oversees.

46:15>> So just want to make sure, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

46:17So we've got $35 million from the private side and $13 million from the council side at this point?

46:23>> No councilman, through the chair to the councilman, that's not what I said.

46:26>> Okay, so we spent $35 million.

46:29>> Approximately.

46:30>> Of that, $35 million.

46:31So how much money ARPA funds did we spend?

46:34How much ARPA funds did you get?

46:36>> Our ARPA award will conclude, all final reconciliation will be November 30th.

46:41So when that final reconciliation happens, very fast approaching, my team is diligently working on that.

46:47I'd be more than welcome to come back and give you full expenditures of which categories and what we spent money on.

46:52>> What allocations did we get in terms of, this is real easy questions here.

46:57So you spent $35 million.

46:59How much money was raised on the outside?

47:01It's just real simple here, math.

47:03And then how much money did-

47:04>> Through the chair to the councilman, it is real simple.

47:06However, I did not come prepared to answer those specific line item questions.

47:10So I'd be more than willing to follow up with you or the council to answer those specific questions.

47:14>> So the question, Mr. Chairman, to Mrs. Donald is how much money did the city give you to run the program?

47:20>> It's 13 million, councilman.

47:23>> Just want to make sure.

47:24>> And councilman, if I could just say, we did invite them as guests to speak on the legislation, but not on the remainder of the funding.

47:31But we're happy to have a follow up conversation, but that was what the invitation was for.

47:35>> I like Ayanna Donald.

47:37So let's clear this up right now.

47:39I'm asking questions about the money.

47:41>> Yeah.

47:42>> You're making proposals to change the program.

47:45This is, I don't know if the chairman wants to push this past real quick, but there's a lot of nuances here that the council is not aware of.

47:55And so when we have to make these decisions, we want to make these decisions.

48:00And what I hear from so far is that we want to make a program that's easier for

48:05those who own properties and have to pay out on an annual basis.

48:10So I don't have a problem with that.

48:13I just wanted to understand what has been brought in thus far because we've talked a lot about this on the program.

48:18We've had citizens come down and protest on this years ago.

48:24And then we set up a whole different charter system process on the other side of this to deal with this issue.

48:32And so I'm just trying to get an understanding of it.

48:34So there's no attacks, I just want to know how much money has actually been raised and how much money has actually come from the council and been spent.

48:44And has this spending at this point, Mr. Chairman, been efficient and effective for the purpose of which it was intended to be spent for?

48:53>> And through the chairman to the councilman respectfully, I appreciate the line of questioning, although that is not the subject matter of today's hearing.

48:59As far as the $13 million is concerned, and as it relates to the legislation, the $13 million or that ARPA award will be done November 30th.

49:07So effectively, this legislation would not take place in changes until after that has happened.

49:13So the spending of those dollars and all those things have already taken place.

49:17And as far as for the remaining dollars that we have in the Let's Save Home Fund, we will work closely.

49:23That is something in a part that as I understand the administration will talk just briefly to because once the legislation gets passed,

49:30that is the function of the coalition to determine how we will spend the dollars and support in the process.

49:36>> I understand, Mr. Chairman.

49:37>> Mr. Jones, I'm so sorry.

49:38>> I get the point, Mr. Chairman.

49:39>> You do need to move on.

49:40>> And I appreciate you, Mrs. Donald.

49:41And I just want to say all things are open when you come to this table.

49:44When this table has to spend the citizen's money, at any time when you come to the table,

49:49a council member will ask on a number of subject matters, especially when we're talking about how we've had to move this process to get it where it is.

49:58And I'm one of those members who fought to make sure that we did everything we could to help the coalition and to put resources in.

50:07So I wasn't meaning to offend anyone sitting here.

50:10I just wanted to know what we raised and what we've given so far on both sides, and that was it.

50:18So if I rattled any change and made some folks uncomfortable, I wasn't intended, just wanted to have an account.

50:25>> Thank you, Mr. Jones.

50:26We're going to proceed with the presentation now.

50:27Thank you very much.

50:28>> Good, good, good.

50:29You gone?

50:31>> I believe I'm handing it to Director Margolias to start us off on the presentation.

50:42>> All right, thanks.

50:44That was a good preamble to our conversation here today.

50:46So the reason that we're here, as has been well articulated, is that children are still being affected by lead exposure and lead poisoning.

50:55So at the Cleveland Department of Public Health, every day our team of case managers hits refresh on their computer and gets a new list of children who have been affected by lead poisoning that they reach out to then do case management, figure out the source of lead poisoning, and do something about it.

51:13And so Cleveland's rate of lead positivity in their blood is still very high and unfortunately much higher than peer cities.

51:26And it's generally because we have older houses that haven't had the same investments as peer cities.

51:32And so this is through 2023, and you can see compared to some other cities like Toledo, Detroit, Akron, and Cincinnati.

51:41And so for the last seven years, we've been working on administering 747 2019, and we've learned a lot from that process.

51:53As you can see from that green bar at the top, we've gotten about 31,000 units into compliance that have proven that they're lead safe and much less likely to cause lead exposure for a child.

52:06Another strip there right right below is the group of properties that we've enforced and said hey you're not doing what you need to do and so we're going to penalize you for not doing the right thing.

52:18But then there's still as you've seen many properties that have been in the shadows that have been not participating in this law for various reasons.

52:30And so we've got some work to do and that's why we come to you today with an opportunity to make some adjustments to the law so we can get more of those properties and better shape to cause less lead poisoning.

52:42And the good news is that over the past three years after a five year period of relative stagnation, we've seen a reduction in the number of kids exposed to lead and in the percentage of kids who are testing positive for lead exposure.

53:01We're feeling hopeful that we can continue that momentum. This is a soundtrack that I called upon. We just need the drums I think you know.

53:15So we made some momentum and we are working hard to show year over year improvement in terms of lead exposure so that this problem can be behind us as much of the rest of the country has seen.

53:27So with that and the how we're going to do that together, I'm going to turn it back over to Rebecca Moore. Thank you very much director.

53:37You know, I want to ground us in I think some of the items that I on a blue Donald touched on which is the months of research conversation and revision that went into these this process.

53:50Certainly the Lead Safe Cleveland Coalition Policy Committee but in taking on this new role, I've spoken with peer cities, folks who we modeled ourselves after like Rochester.

53:59We've talked with landlords, tenant advocates. We did send a formal invitation to legal aid to participate and give comments on the bill.

54:08Lead workers, city staff and the Lead Safe Advisory Board as well as our Lead Safe Auditor who monitors compliance with our own rules that we set out.

54:18While the auditor couldn't formally comment on the bill, they did offer a set of best practices that closely aligned with what we have put together and what we're going to go through today.

54:30I also want to ground us in core principles because what you already heard this morning is I think one of the key things to understand about lead, which is that there is no one perfect answer when we coded our city in a type of paint that as it deteriorates over decades produces a dust that harms kids.

54:49It harms kids in a way that is very hard to see that is often if you don't get it tested in the moment you can't get the exact blood lead level you might not even know and it's hard to know the effects later on.

55:00Is that the reason that your child is struggling in school? Is that the reason that later on down the line they have health consequences?

55:07What we know is that lead is poisonous. There is no biological purpose for it and our body doesn't know how to regulate it. It mistakes it for calcium and iron.

55:16And if we had the perfect solution, if we could get to stripping those layers of paint out of our city overnight any single one of us would do it.

55:24And in the absence of that magic wand we have to understand that there are trade offs and dials that we have before us and the changes you see are the result of experience that we've developed over the years but it has to be grounded in values because otherwise you could turn the dials too far one way or too far the other.

55:45And so these are the values that guided us that we reward investments that protect kids that just like you heard from Mr. Avinelli that if you have made significant improvements that should be rewarded.

55:58That we put effort where risk is that homes that are highly likely to poison a kid should be treated differently from a home that was built in a decade where we weren't using lead based paint nearly as much.

56:08We have one up here, harm reduction, not perfection. That has been the core vision of this program since we adopted a lead safe model.

56:17It is not feasible to get to a lead free model. Lead free doesn't even really have meaning in a city where we pumped lead, leaded gasoline into the air where we had industry that flew up lead particulate matter and dropped it into our soils.

56:32It's not even something that we can achieve because you have a federal and state standards define lead based paint one way.

56:41Well, New York City is much further along in this process than us.

56:44They define lead based paint at a lower threshold so you could get rid of everything we call lead based paint today and the next generation of lead advocates.

56:52And there will be a next generation because we are holding the baton right now but we have so much further to go.

56:58This will be my lifetime's work, your lifetime's work, and then more lifetimes after that.

57:03They could get to the point where they're trying to strip away layers of paint that have a much lower threshold of lead than what we even consider lead based paint now.

57:11At the same time, we want a program that people can administer and explain and we're getting really close to that point where I'm going to be explaining it.

57:18And back the law with action is the final one. Here at the city, execution, enforcement, and that's why we laid out a core strategy package which has five key pillars.

57:31Today, we're going to be going through the first three of them because those are the legislative changes that we can make.

57:38Those are the legislative levers that we can put in place and that are the necessary building blocks.

57:43But we have not taken our eye off the ball that improving enforcement and rebuilding resources are absolutely part of that work.

57:53Those items aren't in the legislative package today, but they're part of our administrative work and work with our partners that are going to be playing out in the months and years ahead.

58:03So with that preamble, I think we're ready to get into the law itself. And if you take away one thing from what this law does, it's going to be these next couple of slides.

58:14Currently, the law has two flavors. It has a two year certificate and a 20 year certificate.

58:20A two year certificate is what we call our Lead Safe Standard. That is where you get your property to a passing lead risk assessment. It doesn't have any evaluation of risky components that have just gotten a fresh coat of paint on there.

58:35And like Mr. Burcon's talked about, could end up with nicks and chips down the road and then poison a kid.

58:40We then have a 20 year certificate, and this is for homes that have reached what's called an abatement standard.

58:46Abatement does not mean lead free. Abatement can mean lead hazards that are encapsulated or enclosed still in a property, but have been treated with a methodology that's rated for at least 20 years.

59:01So right now, not a lot of properties can reach that 20 year standard. Only a few hundred have reached that standard across the city.

59:09And so if you learn one thing about the law, it is this chart. It is about creating a ladder of certificate timelines that reward improvements to the property that materially improve the outcome for kids.

59:25We're starting by moving the two year cycle to a three year cycle. This is in line with the national standards. When we passed our law in 2019, two years was standard across the cities that were even willing to engage in a type of Lead Safe Rental Registry.

59:40But since then, model cities like Rochester have moved to three year cycles. Toledo has a five year cycle. Philadelphia went from two years to four years. There's been an understanding across the ecosystem of old industrial cities that have a lot of housing stock like Cleveland's

59:57that two years is too fast to really differentiate between the landlords that are maintaining their property and giving us the staff time to go after the folks who aren't. Where this law gives the city secret sauce, the special sauce is that if you can meet that base certificate cycle,

1:00:15but you can then show that you have replaced the number one part of a home that poisons kids, and that is old wood windows. We are going to give you five years.

1:00:25We want to incentivize landlords to make that investment in their property. If you talk to lead workers, the staff on Director Margolis' team who go out to properties after a kid is poisoned, risk assessors, and the data from HUD and from our own XRF scans back this up.

1:00:43Old wood windows are our public enemy number one when it comes to lead poisoning. And every single thing we can do to incentivize the removal of these old windows from homes helps kids.

1:00:54And so when we reward a landlord who takes that action with more time, we end up with a stronger bill. If you then handle all of the movable and accessible windows but you layer on to that, the exterior doors and the porch, those are public enemy number two and three.

1:01:12We're going to reward you with 10 years. If you think, "Hey, how did we determine these particular items?" I invite you to think about why lead-based paint was a premium product in the early 20th century, why it was being sold to homeowners, why it was something that construction workers like to have.

1:01:29The lead in the paint allowed the paint to produce a much stronger bond with wood when it was exposed to the elements.

1:01:37So the wood taking in all that moisture from being out in the air, so it's the exterior part of the house, the door trim around an exterior door, the porch, the windows.

1:01:47That's the part of the home where lead-based paint was desirable at a time that we thought lead-based paint was desirable.

1:01:53So when we tackle those parts of the home first, we can make a material impact for kids and then make sure that we reward landlords who make those really strong investments.

1:02:04Okay, there's other elements of the law too. If you have a property that's built after 1960, all of the data tells us much less lead-based paint was used then you can get 10 years right off the bat.

1:02:16If you have consecutive passing certificates, you don't let your certificate lapse for more than six months.

1:02:22You always are turning in a passing test showing that your property is being maintained will give you additional years for that as well.

1:02:29In response to the feedback from the Lead Safe Cleveland Coalition, we kept the 20-year certificate exactly where it's at.

1:02:36So that anchor part of the 20 years is staying where it is, but in response to the feedback to the coalition, we've added an exemption for what are called lead-free properties.

1:02:46These are properties where you use an XRF gun to go surface by surface across the entire home showing that there is no lead-based paint in the property.

1:02:55We are exempting properties like that from this bill and saying that essentially they should be treated like a post-1978 property.

1:03:05That also means that when future generations are hopefully tackling lead from dust, lead from gasoline, that they can still tackle this type of property just like they'll need to tackle a post-1978 property.

1:03:18But it rewards landlords that go to the point of stripping out every single part of the home that has lead-based paint.

1:03:26If you don't have lead-based paint on the property, we don't want to be coming back in 20 years. We want to just exempt you from the law.

1:03:32Again, this is the number one thing you should take away is this idea of grading based on risk and components. This is some data from HUD about where we find lead-based paint. The orange is on the exterior of the home. The blue is on the interior.

1:03:51And this is, again, the number one thing you should take away is these changes to the certificate cycle and the way that they materially reward improvement for landlords.

1:04:02With that, I'll pause and hand the second portion of the law over to Director Margolias.

1:04:10So the second portion, which again, the first portion is the most important takeaway. This is the second most important takeaway.

1:04:17What this legislative change allows us to do is to add a local risk assessment standard and a local inspection license.

1:04:25And so as of today, when your residents give us a call, if they're property owners and they call me and say, "Hey, can you recommend a certain lead risk assessor? Who's the best?"

1:04:37Today, I don't have the ability to make that recommendation. I don't have the ability to say, "Look at the LeadSafe Resource Center. They have a vetted list."

1:04:46But with this change, we would have an updated standard and allow for visible quality control so that I'm able to say, "Here's a certain lead risk assessor who scores the highest based on their ability to do everything that we require and also help make the recommendations to improve your home with the greatest success rate."

1:05:07And so this is something that we took away from Toledo who started after us but came up with this best practice.

1:05:16The other part of this is today, if we find a lead risk assessor is forging documents, which unfortunately found a few of those, like they're forging the lab reports by using a PDF editor, we refer those to the state health department, Ohio Department of Health.

1:05:32And they do an investigation and they've got just a handful of folks who do this and it can take some time for them to get back to us and eventually remove the license of lead risk assessor.

1:05:43With this, we're able to use our quality control team and move a lot quicker so that those folks who are doing the fraudulent inspections are off the street quicker and not tricking our residents and our local property owners.

1:05:55So this is the exact language where we spell out the local lead clearance examination and the local lead risk assessment.

1:06:05We can get into the Q&A on the difference between those two, have that in front of you.

1:06:11And then this is the additional language around that local lead inspection license.

1:06:17And so we're not here to make extra layers of bureaucracy, but something simple and easy where you can now trust that an inspector has been vetted by the city of Cleveland team and so that they could be hired by your residents and local property owners too.

1:06:37Rebecca Moore. Thank you very much.

1:06:40This is the third pillar, if you remember that first slide with the five pillars on it. It's a little bit of a catch all and there's a number of administrative improvements that we're making based on the last seven years of learning from the law.

1:06:57I, you know, they're all spelled out both this mirrors the executive summary that was provided to council and they're spelled out on the slide as well.

1:07:05So I'll just highlight a couple here.

1:07:08One is that we're coordinating with the federal lead safe housing rule right now, landlords who provide a housing choice voucher program properties commonly known as section eight in the city.

1:07:20They have to sometimes they're going through an extensive testing and remediation process for CMHA and then getting a clearance from from them, but we cannot accept that clearance because of a bureaucratic difference in the initial test.

1:07:33We will end clearances the same but we won't accept it. So by changing it and allowing us to accept that final clearance from CMHA, we both make sure that section eight landlords are incentivized to go through both of our programs.

1:07:47And we make sure that we again don't create in a layer of bureaucracy that lowers our ability to provide affordable housing here in the city.

1:07:54Similarly, if you go through the lead hazard control order process with the Department of Public Health and you get a clearance through that process, we can accept that as well.

1:08:05And again, happy to get into any of the details on any of these other elements through the Q&A. But just to highlight a couple, we adopted a change to the lead safe advisory board to focus on relocation assistance.

1:08:20Right now, if a family is hospitalized, and so you guys know, there's different levels of exposure of lead in the blood.

1:08:28There is no safe level of lead in the blood, but at 3.5, that's the first action level that's set by the federal government.

1:08:36Between 3.5 and 10, there's not a required test of the home.

1:08:41At 10, the Cleveland Department of Public Health comes out and does a test, but kids can get up to really high levels, and they can get to 30, 40, 50, 60 micrograms per deciliter.

1:08:53And at some point, they can get hospitalized and have to go through chelation.

1:08:57And during that, when the hospital finalizes that, and the family often can't get a discharge until they have a safe place to go to.

1:09:07And making sure that the lead safe advisory board is reviewing that relocation process, and that we have systems in place that have oversight from the city about relocation.

1:09:17It's going to be an improvement over setting it into a board that wasn't meeting as regular, was not meeting regularly up until now.

1:09:26Secondly, we want to get more XRS out on the field.

1:09:30If you haven't heard me talk about them, they're extremely, very cool and very expensive pieces of equipment.

1:09:37They're about $25,000, but they are what are called XRF guns.

1:09:42And you point them at a surface, and they can immediately tell you whether or not that surface has lead-based paint in it.

1:09:48I invite any members of the committee, I'm happy to spend an hour in your ward if you have some of your residents' homes.

1:09:55It's really critical to see, you'll realize, oh my gosh, we put this stuff everywhere.

1:10:01And seeing immediately where the lead-based paint is.

1:10:07So by creating an XRF lending program, that will allow us to have more risk assessors utilizing those XRFs.

1:10:14So one thing you've heard from the risk assessors in public comment was that every little nick could be an issue on a risk assessment.

1:10:21Well, if you can take an XRF and immediately determine that it's not a source of lead-based paint,

1:10:26we are not interested in whether the paint is deteriorated at that point.

1:10:30If it's not lead-based paint, you as a homeowner, landlord, tenant, you can keep the paint in whatever condition you want to keep it in.

1:10:37And for lead purposes, we're not interested in it.

1:10:40And the more we can determine that right off the bat, well, you might, building and housing, building and housing might care.

1:10:47I mean on the interior, little nicks and scratches like that on the interior.

1:10:53The more we can determine that on the spot rather than making people assume that pre-1978 paint is lead-based,

1:11:00the better, sharper, and clearer our risk assessments will get and the better our investments can get.

1:11:07Lastly, we'll be making sure that there are disclosures in sale or lease of the Lead Safe Certificate status.

1:11:14And we'll be making it easier as a city to check whether a property has its Lead Safe Certificate.

1:11:20That is available online right now, but we're going to be making it easier in the weeks ahead.

1:11:25I believe that I will pause there and let us go ahead to any questions from the committee.

1:11:34Thank you for this presentation, everyone. A lot going on.

1:11:43A lot going on.

1:11:44Did I say something about non-target homes?

1:11:46Yeah, absolutely. Let me explain that.

1:11:49So this is a, this was voted on and supported by the Lead Safe Cleveland Coalition and is one of our,

1:11:58I believe it's actually under this portion of the bill.

1:12:03Non-target housing, target housing is a definition from HUD that relates to things like dormitories,

1:12:09military barracks, and homes or properties that are designed for senior living or for folks living with disabilities.

1:12:18And so as long as those properties don't have any kids living in them, HUD exempts them.

1:12:23We never adopted that target, non-target housing exemption in the 2019 law.

1:12:28And for instance, it means that all of the dormitories for all of our colleges are currently out of compliance with the Lead Safe Certificate law.

1:12:34So by adopting HUD's non-target housing standard, again, it helps us focus on the types of homes that really do poison kids.

1:12:41It makes a lot of sense to not be looking at cases, dorms.

1:12:45Yeah.

1:12:46Did I say something about, are studio apartments part of that too?

1:12:48Yeah.

1:12:49It's a single room occupancy is the definition.

1:12:52HUD defines it as zero bedroom.

1:12:54And so, you know, we were looking at that can include some types of group homes and efficiencies like SROs, single room occupancies.

1:13:05And so that's HUD's definition that we've adopted.

1:13:10Maybe it's worth just clarifying for me then.

1:13:12With my studio apartment that had no walls and just a bed bathroom in the corner, would that count under this exemption?

1:13:21I don't believe so.

1:13:22Okay. Thank you.

1:13:23The goal of this legislation, of course, is making it easier for good landlords to comply and bring more landlords into the fold to free up more resources for what you need to do to make sure folks are being treated well in this community.

1:13:37Can you clarify just a little more about where those resources are going to go?

1:13:40We're saving to do what?

1:13:42Absolutely. So, you know, you saw that the shape of the number of homes that are in the shadows, right?

1:13:51And so when we have additional staff capacity, we're able to improve our enforcement.

1:13:56We're able to increase civil ticketing.

1:13:58We're able to increase violation notices.

1:14:01We're able to be a little bit creative, you know, should we be on Zillow.com looking at rentals and seeing, you know, checking those against our rental registry.

1:14:10So that capacity allows us to go after folks and just make clear what the standards are here in Cleveland.

1:14:16And through the chair, I'll just add also, it's also to you've got property owners now who are looking for a reason to replace the windows in the home and make some of these improvements and are telling our lead risk assessors that, hey, if you extend the interval for a home that's got new vinyl windows, then that's the motivation I need to replace vinyl windows.

1:14:36And we're already hearing examples of that happening as a result of the current law.

1:14:40And so should happen more with this adjustment.

1:14:42That's great. And I always have the position that harm reduction maybe isn't how I think of this.

1:14:46This is more of making sure government's resources are used to their highest and best extent, which is, say, eliminating the most dangerous products or components of a home, windows, and then doors and porches.

1:14:56So we're freeing up staff capacity to improve enforcement, to process paperwork, to do more Zillow searches, to maybe do more in the community inspections.

1:15:06Is there a vision for hiring more staff as well, budgets around the corner?

1:15:10Through the chair, yes, I haven't heard back from our Department of Finance on our budget request, but my hope is I will bring to you in February additional headcount on the lead team, and this will be why, so that we can reduce lead poisoning better, quicker.

1:15:26The why is fantastic, and you've even provided the financial how, it sounds like, if we're saving money by reallocating resources wisely, we'll have more to spend on things like bringing in your capacity.

1:15:36Are we also internalizing the risk assessment function as part of this effort?

1:15:40You and I discussed, I just want to clarify more.

1:15:42No, currently landlords would still have to hire a third-party risk assessor.

1:15:46Okay, checking my little list.

1:15:49Maybe we're just pinning down, of course, this only works if we're enforcing it, and one way of reinforcing it is through the penalties for not registering with the city.

1:15:58Those are all not being amped up here.

1:16:00Those are the same as, well, largely.

1:16:02Can you just walk through the penalties of what happens when you don't register with us?

1:16:05Yes, Mr. Chairman, to answer your question, we have been ramping up.

1:16:11Fortunately, this body passed residents first, which gave us some additional tools like civil tickets, which we're predominantly using to enforce on rental non-performance, let's say, not registering your rental property, not getting your lead safe assessment.

1:16:27So we have lots of statistics on that, but we've been issuing thousands of tickets.

1:16:32Also finding some of that shadow inventory, for instance, housing choice voucher units that have never been in the rental registry.

1:16:40We found many thousands of those, and so we began enforcing on those as well.

1:16:45So by doing that, we're up about 100% in rental registrations over the past year.

1:16:51So yes, enforcement is robust. It will continue to be heavily driven by our staff, who we have an entire unit now focused on lead enforcement.

1:17:01You have doubled the amount of units in the rental registry in the last year?

1:17:05Well, it's a significant bump, let's call it.

1:17:08Up 100%, that's great.

1:17:09Well, let's call it, we're in the 75,000 range, and we were in the 60,000 range, but it's math.

1:17:18It's a big bump still.

1:17:20Maybe just last sort of question, and I don't know what thought process is going into this.

1:17:25So my understanding is that pre-executive order clearances can count as one of your three, but those are under a different sort of rubric.

1:17:32Could you just talk about sort of the thinking behind making sure those are still part of the approvals for your exemption?

1:17:38Yeah, definitely. I just want to make sure I clarify the question through the chair, Councilman, about whether the clearances can count towards your three track record submissions or clearances.

1:17:51Exactly.

1:17:52That you need three qualifying submissions to get your 10-year exemption, and we are allowing the pre-2024 pre-executive order clearances to count as one of those.

1:18:02And those seem of a different character than the ones that you're looking for now.

1:18:05Yeah, I think this is a great --

1:18:08Oh, it's a complicated one. I apologize.

1:18:10It's complicated to me, too.

1:18:12Well, actually, maybe, Senior Advisor, would you mind walking through what this EO did in '24?

1:18:17Yeah, absolutely.

1:18:18There was a -- well, we changed the way we measure in Holmes-led issues in 2024, and I'm deferring to the Senior Advisor on led to clarify what that change was.

1:18:28Because it's interesting that we're looking at -- we will use that information for the exemptions we're now offering, even though those are two different standards.

1:18:37It's a very boring question, but I was -- could you walk us through the changes?

1:18:41No, absolutely. Through the chair, thank you, Councilman.

1:18:43So just to clarify, when the law was initially passed, there were two available tests to sort of start your LedSafe certificate.

1:18:52You could either get a clearance or a led risk assessment.

1:18:56And in the 2024 executive order, the administration made clear that it would only accept risk assessments going forward.

1:19:05And it was one of the recommendations of the LedSafe Cleveland Coalition and something that we have adopted here that this new version of the law will make crystal clear that you cannot start with a clearance.

1:19:16You have to start with a risk assessment.

1:19:18So we've sort of clarified what was a difference in language and testing standards.

1:19:25And if I can say it back, Councilman, I think your question is whether if we are rewarding landlords who have multiple passing LedSafe certificates,

1:19:35should we reward people who had LedSafe certificates that were obtained using the earlier standard, even though we've moved away from that?

1:19:44Is that accurate?

1:19:45That's right. The earlier, lesser standard.

1:19:47And this is a great example of those dials I talked about earlier that there's not one perfect answer.

1:19:55And I truly went back and forth on this in different conversations that you could have one version where you say, no, we moved away from those clearances because they weren't good measurements of lead safety.

1:20:04That was why we moved away from them in the first place.

1:20:06And I have to tell you, our risk assessments are a million times better than the early clearances.

1:20:11We have a much higher sense of the safety that they demonstrate at the time that the test was conducted.

1:20:17So should you not reward those?

1:20:20On the other hand, this question of repeat rewards for repeat certificates has been a question about early adopters who frankly often went above and beyond what most landlords have done to participate in this program.

1:20:36They are landlords who engaged from day one in the first quarter when only 26 people submitted applications during the first rollout.

1:20:45And so one of those dials was, do you reward the small number of people who were early adopters and very good faith engagers in the system?

1:20:55Or do you move away and say, no, only new people can get this?

1:21:00And we landed on the dial that rewarding folks who engaged early were engaged repeatedly.

1:21:06If you have a lapse of your certificate for more than a couple of months, you can't get this.

1:21:11There's going to be a very small handful of people where old clearances are going to be able to meet that standard.

1:21:16Oh, interesting. And that's super clarifying for me.

1:21:18You've been focused on folks who want to engage consistently. Exactly.

1:21:21Those are sort of like, that's a demonstration of good faith, good actors.

1:21:24Yeah.

1:21:25Other comments from my colleagues? I have Councilwoman Hudson next, but Chair, if you'd like to go. Okay. Councilwoman Hudson.

1:21:30Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1:21:35Thank you. Good morning to you all.

1:21:39It was mentioned earlier that part of what the Lead Safe Coalition would like to see is the hiring of an ombudsman.

1:21:47Can you give us an update about that?

1:21:49Absolutely. We'd be happy to. We have posted and hired our Lead Safe ombudsman who joined the city just a little more than a month ago.

1:22:00And we're happy to say that he's been hard at work developing what's called your charter for an ombudsman office.

1:22:06As far as we're aware, this is the first time we've had a formal ombudsman at the city.

1:22:10It's something that's common at hospitals and universities, and it's not a formal legal evaluation.

1:22:16It is an informal resolution, and so you want to have what's called a charter to help set everyone's standards.

1:22:24And so we've been working way hard on that and had our ombudsman come to the Lead Safe Advisory Board to just introduce himself and talk a little bit about that process.

1:22:33And we're hoping to have the office be public and accepting investigations and complaints in the next couple of months.

1:22:40Thank you. And through the chair, is it accurate to say that he would be the person to interface between residents and the city, the Department of Public Health, Department of Building and Housing?

1:22:55Absolutely.

1:22:56Thank you. I'm just curious. We've heard a lot of positive comments about these legislative updates. Has there been any pushback?

1:23:06Through the chair to the Councilwoman, you know, there's been back and forth on really tough questions, but I haven't had someone come to me yet and say that they oppose this bill.

1:23:21I think what we see across the board is that people realize there need to be changes. There need to be updates that incorporate the last seven years of learning.

1:23:31And I'm particularly proud of the effort to bring together improvements that can make a material difference for kids.

1:23:39That is always the North Star with improvements that can make a material difference for the folks who are investing money into their properties and making sure that this whole ecosystem can really thrive.

1:23:51Thank you. I have a question for Dr. Mark Olias and maybe if somebody else. So I'm curious, through the chair, what happens when a kid tests positive for lead in their blood, but then it's found that it didn't come from their residents?

1:24:13So we still work to figure out where it came from. And so we'll often find out about a grandparent who might live in the inner ring suburbs. And so that's something that will pass over to the Cuyahoga County Board of Health.

1:24:28However, we'll do more digging and find out that maybe their current property passes or has a lead risk assessment without any active lead hazards. But where they used to live, we'll go drive by and do other research and find out that, oh gosh, that was probably the property.

1:24:44And so we'll wait to see what the next blood test is. If that continues to decline, then we'll conclude that, okay, it must have been the previous place they live. But it's really kind of case dependent. That's part of what the team does with support of the Ohio Department of Health.

1:24:58Okay, so your team. So let's say, you know, an example given earlier, a child's in the hospital, and they're not allowed to return to their current home until it's deemed safe. That's something that the Department of Public Health and the City of Cleveland does is investigate the source of the poisoning.

1:25:17Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. So we are the local delegated authority. And so it's one of the programs like our food safety program that is highly regulated from the state and highly audited it was something that Yeah, absolutely.

1:25:30And through the chair, that is something that your department has done, has always done. And is that correct?

1:25:37Through the chair. Yeah, I think so. Since the Yeah, for at least decades. What has changed is recently we had that relocation program that allowed us to partner with let's say coalition environmental health watch to relocate families and so

1:25:54that was ARPA spending and so is expired and so that's something that we're going to advocate for being able to restart because that's one of the hardest things that we do is that decision between, you know, you can't go home but you have nowhere to go.

1:26:11And through the chair, are there any other documented, you know, scientifically known sources of lead poisoning, other than lead paint?

1:26:21Through the chair, absolutely. I you know, I've heard my presentations on this lead paint is the number one cause of lead poisoning in the United States.

1:26:32When you talk to most folks in the community, the first thing that they think of is water because of the stickiness of the story from from Flint, Michigan.

1:26:40But lead paint is up here. Water is much lower when you look across the country, lead paint, lead paint dust, other potential sources are some food products have been contaminated with with lead, ceramic dishes, things that you can buy at the thrift store,

1:26:58some toys that are less regulated from out of the country. Gasoline used to be leaded and so it's still it was very much in the soil and still is but but decreasingly so and so makeup.

1:27:14Thank you. Yeah, so there it's a long list but but I do want to be clear because sometimes those can pull away from the work that needs to happen with lead paint.

1:27:23Lead paint is way, way, way higher as a source of lead poisoning, especially here in Cleveland.

1:27:28Thank you, Mr. Thank you through the chair. And what's the timeline for implementation of this.

1:27:34Yeah, absolutely. The bill as written would go into effect in February 2027 which gives us a bit of staff time to get the administrative components in place, but isn't too long of a delay because we really don't want to disincentivize any landlords from getting their lead safe certificate

1:27:51to that end, anybody who has a lead safe certificate now and then during this upcoming window will get an additional year so you should not do not hesitate to turn in your lead safe certificate, even though the three year rule will start in February will add those additional

1:28:08years for people who turn theirs in the meantime. Okay, thank you for the clarification and thank you all for your for your hard work on this.

1:28:15Lock the one on. Next up on our list. Thank you. Good morning. Thank you for your time and efforts. I just wanted to run through a couple of things but, and I appreciate the administration taking the time and walking us through.

1:28:44I know there was a lot of effort spent on that, and help me get some more clarifications I think there's some things I wanted to get on the record, and then get a little more understanding on.

1:28:56Before I started though I did want to clarify it, I know, Senior Advisor Maurer you mentioned, when we coded this paint all over town. I just want to point out it was profiteers that cared more about money than poor children that did that.

1:29:11Sherwin Williams knew for decades before they were prevented from putting this lead paint out there, what the risks were we saw other countries banning this, and in fact, just a few years ago, we still turn around and gave Sherwin Williams millions of dollars to build their gleaming new downtown building but that's a different

1:29:29matter, but I do want to make sure we all talk about the same things and who's actually at fault for this. It's people who care more about money than poor children.

1:29:39And it is the job of government to make sure that we are still looking out for the working class people so I appreciate this continued effort.

1:29:46So, with that being said, I wanted to just understand a little more about that XRF lending program. What, what's that going to look like can you walk us through, through the chair to the.

1:29:55Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, this does go to an equity issue in our city because risk becoming a risk assessor is a workforce development tool you've heard from risk assessors on this morning who their whole they're booked up, doing the risk assessments and we want

1:30:12more Clevelanders to become risk assessors and to be in the lead safe ecosystem, so that when money is spent it stays here in Cleveland and supports our local economy and local workers.

1:30:23But you can do a better risk assessment with an XRF, a XRF allows you to not have to assume that paint is lead based when it is pre 1978 in a lot of risk assessments.

1:30:35Well in risk assessments you have to do that you either have to paint chip sample it, you have to assume or you have to XRF it you have to go one way or the other, and paint chip sampling is onerous very difficult to do.

1:30:48And frankly, no one really likes people taking an exacto knife to their property to get a paint chip sample. So if we can make XRF more widely available, it will improve the risk assessments and frankly a $25,000 tool investment is not in the cards for many folks who are starting out as risk assessors.

1:31:06So we've been happy to work alongside the Department of Public Health and the Department of Community Development to start a pilot we have two XRFs already here at the city and we're hoping to get two more.

1:31:19And we're working to set up the sort of standards and systems for it you do have to be a risk assessor. I'd love to get these things at the local library one day you can just check one out and test your whole home but it does use a type of X ray fluorescence

1:31:34that, you know, you don't want to be pointing it at people it's sort of like an X ray at the dentist office you want to minimize your exposure to it.

1:31:42But we're hoping in early 2027 to have it live and that a risk assessor can borrow an XRF from the city for low cost, perhaps if they do a lead risk assessment for our community development program, it could be free, and then use that to improve the risk assessments across the city.

1:32:00So what I'm hearing is we're not contracting it out to a nonprofit said we're going to be doing that in house and making sure that we can provide those resources to people, that is the current plan.

1:32:10Okay.

1:32:12That's great. I appreciate it. Councilman Hudson's questions earlier about you know the pushback or feedback that you've gotten I am grateful for the folks who did come to provide public comment.

1:32:24If I remember right we had some risk assessors and landlords, I wanted to understand, has there been extensive what level of gathering feedback from tenants.

1:32:39Thank you for that. And, you know, as part of, I know my job and Dr. Margolis his job we talked to tenants on a nearly daily basis because people get scary letters in the mail from violation notices.

1:32:52And so, you know, there's been a few different levels one is that day to day engagement where what we hear is, you know, concern from tenants about like what does this mean how can I keep my property safe.

1:33:05I will be a friend I don't think there's been a we haven't had a tenant only conversation.

1:33:12I would welcome the chance to do that, in any of your words, we have been talking with community grassroots grassroots organizers that work among tenants, we presented, kaha presented with clash and talk to the sequel board as well, who are also you know engage day to day in the lives of our residents.

1:33:31I think helpful, but I do want to emphasize I think there needs to be more focused work on tenants I mean I'm sure you're aware that teams aware, most of our residents are renting now.

1:33:44The direct impact of most of this lead paint is going towards tenants, when it's landlord based properties understand we have this focus we're kind of get landlord feedback because they're the ones that are going to be complying with this but the direct impact is on tenants and we want to make sure that they're actually getting

1:33:58enough of the benefit but also understanding how this fairly complicated process is working in the background.

1:34:05The more we can do that the more agency we can provide to tenants so I would encourage that would also be happy to have the team or, you know, whatever ways we can set up to get more of the word out there.

1:34:16Thank you, Councilman Oh and the only thing I was going to add to that through the chair is we are developing material specifically for tenants, essentially like a visual walkthrough how should I know if I need to talk to my landlord about this what are my rights, things

1:34:29like that are part of the materials we're developing. That's good.

1:34:32I think along that line I'll just since you mentioned I think there's going to be easier to view dashboard or a tool right do want to talk about that just share some more about that.

1:34:42Absolutely. You know we're right now through the administration's open data portal, you can go on today and say does my property have a lead safe certificate.

1:34:52The issue is that it's a little technical. It's a little technical. It takes a little bit of time to get familiar with the interface. It's a little difficult to navigate.

1:35:02And so we've been working with urban AI to make a search tool similar to the permit permit portal look up and we want to make sure that it works.

1:35:16We're still in the final stages of testing, but we are looking forward to sharing that and making it just a hundred times easier to just pull it up quickly on your phone and say hey I'm about to rent this property doesn't have a lead safe certificate because we know that that's going to be a big part of it.

1:35:31And by the way, if it comes up and you don't have a lead safe certificate, you can hit a report button, take you right to 311 and then it'll generate a report that goes over to the building and housing team for enforcement.

1:35:44That's great. And speaking of building and housing, I understand we're going to be seeing an increase headcount from public health. Is there going to be a corresponding increase headcount that we should expect director?

1:35:54>> Right. We've been begging. >> Through the chair to the councilman, well, we have a strategy for having four inspectors and one manager on that team in our building and housing that just does the enforcement.

1:36:08They're working very closely with our rental inspection unit. So while we're not asking for a specific additional headcount, we're moving people around to be able to accommodate that.

1:36:18>> Do you think we could, what's the downsides to increasing that team to get more of those properties out of the shadows?

1:36:26>> Greater than four. We feel right now that's where we're going to hold. We think that's going to be adequate for now. We're being very conservative while we're asking for budget.

1:36:39I'd always like to see more enforcement and going to continue pushing for an increase in that. But I appreciate that. I will move on to a couple last things I wanted to address.

1:36:53So I wanted to understand just a little bit more about the, and I know, let's say, Cleveland Coalition is here as well.

1:37:01So if they're not prepared, that's okay. But has there been conversations or more discussions on what's the incentive side of these things going to look like?

1:37:10What is the plan going forward to get that money out there?

1:37:18>> No, I think it's a great question. I think that when we pass this law and we establish the components of the home that are the highest risk and that we most want removed.

1:37:31I know that we're very eager on the administration end to shape our policy moving forward around that.

1:37:37So what can we do to get discounts for replacing windows in the city of Cleveland? How can we improve workforce so that there is a higher number of available contractors?

1:37:48Can we build out rebate programs?

1:37:50I think that those questions are what are on the table, but we haven't moved forward with them until we can finalize the law to the chair.

1:37:58>> And then final technical one before just two final broader ones was can you walk us through why not have a lifetime certificate assessment and kind of what was the process behind that?

1:38:14>> Yeah, great question because a lifetime certificate was initially a recommendation of the coalition and was certainly something that came up in different conversations.

1:38:29There's sort of a halfway answer, which is that by exempting fully lead based paint free properties, that is a version of a lifetime certificate that gives us the power for future generations to still enforce on those properties at the same rate that they would enforce on a post 1978 property.

1:38:52So the idea is rather than calling it a lifetime certificate, which then could be taken away and then okay, is there like a takings claim? Is there an issue there by calling it a lifetime certificate?

1:39:02By moving away from that and instead saying you're exempt, you're the same as a post 1978 property when we have leaders who are able to go dealing with lead in soil and lead from airborne sources.

1:39:16This framing of it as an exemption gives us the same capacity to go after those lead based paint free properties as post 1978 properties.

1:39:29>> My final point, if we could go back to the -- oh, I am. You have a very brief comment. Briefly, kind of under your best case scenario, what are the improvements that we expect to see under these changes in the next five years and then if you want to address just what else broad picture wise should we be doing right now thinking about the future of like what other parts of the framework should we be building out.

1:39:54I know this isn't the only thing we want to do to address this. So with that, I'll conclude.

1:39:58>> Absolutely. Great question, councilman through the chair. Just to go to this sort of set of strategic pillars, numbers four and five have to be parts of it.

1:40:08If you don't have enforcement and you don't have the resources, the system will not work the way it should and I always think about the lead safe system as an engine and I feel like we've spent the last seven years kind of putting all the pieces of the engine together and I think especially in the last two years to 18 months,

1:40:27we kind of have an engine that's puttering. It's got little bits of steam coming out of it at times but if we can get all five of these moving at the same time, I think we can have an engine that's really, really moving.

1:40:42Thank you, councilman. I'm glad you liked my analogy.

1:40:46>> I did.

1:40:47>> And then always the number one thing I'm looking for is a decrease in the number of EBLs, the decrease in the number of kids who are testing positive.

1:40:54>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1:40:55>> Very much. The reason I haven't asked her any questions is because we meet once a month. We talk over the telephone and I like that. She constantly give me updates.

1:41:10But piggybacking on what Shaw mentioned, your monitoring controls and quality controls, can you bring that with you when you meet with me on a monthly?

1:41:23Because I like to know. And also if some things change, because one thing I do know about, but not just one thing, policy is that it changes on you.

1:41:34So when it changes, you can let me know about that as well so that we know ahead of time.

1:41:41>> Absolutely, councilman. And we're also very lucky that Councilwoman Hudson is on the Lead Safe Advisory Board where we give quarterly updates as well.

1:41:49So we can make sure that absolutely you have those same ones and happy to come present to council any time.

1:41:54>> Yeah, we're not going to meet further down the line. Constantly, you're having progress on this.

1:42:00It's very, very important to us. And I also want to thank you for reaching out to all the committee members, talking with them, and that's important as well.

1:42:11Thank you very much. And Mr. Chair.

1:42:13>> Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1:42:14>> We move forward.

1:42:15>> The Chair recognizes Mr. Harsh.

1:42:17>> Thank you, Chair. Are we doing 10 minutes?

1:42:19>> 10 minutes, please.

1:42:20>> Good morning. I have three main questions through the Chair to get through.

1:42:29And basically we're here today talking about carrots and sticks.

1:42:32We are trying to entice good behavior and trying to crack down on bad behavior.

1:42:36So my question is cut straight to the carrots and the sticks.

1:42:39So on page four, when we talk about enforcement, I'm sorry, page four of the presentation where we talk about why we're here, we've got 31,000 units in compliance.

1:42:48I think these are round numbers, which is appropriate. We've got 65,000 in the shadow and 4,000 in enforcement.

1:42:54And through the Chair, this kind of mirrors my recollection of rental registration to begin with.

1:43:00Through the Chair, would that be accurate? And maybe this is more for Director Bartnold's fool.

1:43:05>> Through the Chair to Councilman Harsh, can you clarify what you mean, this mirrors rental registration?

1:43:11>> I believe that about 35,000 units typically register for the rental registry in a year, roughly 35% of the-

1:43:18>> It was always, since I've been here, upwards of 50,000.

1:43:21>> 50,000?

1:43:22>> Yeah. But now we're upwards of 70,000. So we've seen a dramatic uptick just with residents first passing and more enforcement.

1:43:29>> And so through the Chair, then these 31,000 in compliance, I would presume that they're also in compliance with rental registry.

1:43:35>> That's absolutely correct.

1:43:37>> They have to be.

1:43:38>> Yes. It's a pretty wreck.

1:43:40>> So through the Chair, why are we stuck at 4,000 in enforcement phase when we know the other 65,000 are out of compliance?

1:43:48And we know that half of the rental registries are out of compliance if we're not having a lead safe too.

1:43:52Why are we stuck at the 4,000 number?

1:43:55>> Through the Chair to the Councilman, every day that number ticks up.

1:43:59So when we're doing civil ticket enforcement, which is a predominant way we're now enforcing this, those have an informal appeal opportunity.

1:44:08So we batch them in batches of 500 to 700 when we issue a batch of civil tickets.

1:44:14Mostly to be able to handle the administrative burden of the potential appeals that are coming forward.

1:44:20So there is a staffing limitation on the amount of tickets we can issue.

1:44:24>> So through the Chair, how does the changes presented here today reduce that staffing limitation and allow you to do more enforcement?

1:44:32>> Through the Chair to the Councilman, as stated, we are going to be shifting some staff around to be more available for lead enforcement, and that should help alleviate some of that.

1:44:42We also understand that there's more capacity in the law department for appeals processing.

1:44:49So the law department is also going to be able to find some additional capacity for us.

1:44:55So the appeals are handled by a personnel from the law department, and also Colleen Magesca, our assistant director, who's also an attorney.

1:45:03And so the demands on the attorneys, we're going to be having some additional capacity from law.

1:45:09They're shifting some help our way to be able to hear more of those appeals in a timely manner.

1:45:14>> All right, so through the Chair, before we went into the law department, you said that the personnel in your department that are working on compliance will be able to shift towards enforcement.

1:45:22Is that the understanding?

1:45:24>> Through the Chair to the Councilman, since Dr. Margolias' team started handling the report review,

1:45:31our staff who have been dedicated to lead shifted toward enforcement.

1:45:35So we've been doing that over the past year, but we'll be adding some additional capacity in that unit.

1:45:41>> And so through the Chair, what's a good before and after number?

1:45:44Previous enforcement personnel were roughly x number and the expected number of enforcement personnel is y number.

1:45:52What would those x and y's be?

1:45:55>> Through the Chair to the Councilman, we are anticipating, as I said, bringing two additional inspectors on.

1:46:02And also, we're hiring a manager as our wonderful Victor Santillo transition to the Community Development Department.

1:46:09So that's happening now, but in terms of the capacity to issue more civil tickets,

1:46:16I mean we are continually issuing large batches of civil tickets, a batch of 700 just went out last week.

1:46:23So we'll see it a marked increase, month over month, but-

1:46:28>> So through the Chair, your current enforcement personnel, are we talking about doubling them, tripling them?

1:46:35>> We're talking about doubling them, currently.

1:46:37>> So we should be able to see a doubling in enforcement would be a napkin map.

1:46:43>> It's a fairly reasonable assumption.

1:46:45>> Okay, through the Chair, it's important because CARES don't work for everyone.

1:46:52Some people need to feel the stick, they need to understand that there's a consequence for not doing this.

1:46:56And children's lives are what we're trying to address here.

1:46:59So I want to make sure that we have the stick in place.

1:47:04I'm going to switch my questions over to the caret.

1:47:06On page 12, when we talk about Windows, and through the Chair,

1:47:11I brought this up at the meeting that you had out at the, let's say, resource center as well.

1:47:20I'm wondering if the caret's big enough, I guess.

1:47:22>> So you need the right size care to entice the right type of behavior.

1:47:27And when it comes to Windows, because I've been thinking about this for 20 years.

1:47:33Windows are the most expensive component to replace, typically, because you've got two doors.

1:47:38It's usually just your exterior doors are old.

1:47:41Usually your interior doors have been replaced over the course of the life of the house anyway.

1:47:46So you've really got maybe one or two doors.

1:47:49The porch, not all porches last 100 years, porches tend to get rebuilt on a somewhat

1:47:55regular interval anyway, because they're just exposed to the elements.

1:47:58They rot, you build a new porch.

1:48:00But the Windows, a lot of times, there's a historic relevance to the Windows.

1:48:06People like to keep them, and replacing them, it used to be 400 bucks a pop,

1:48:11was a good round number for an installation of a new window.

1:48:15I don't know if that's changed much, but through the Chair,

1:48:18can you talk a little bit about why you think five years is the right, I thought seven.

1:48:23I thought maybe eight.

1:48:25Why do you think five years is the right carrot for replacing Windows?

1:48:29>> Absolutely, and I think that this, through the Chairman, to the Councilman,

1:48:34I think this goes to those dials that we were talking about earlier,

1:48:38that there's not going to be, people have differences.

1:48:42But I think I want to highlight two things.

1:48:44I apologize, I apologize, Chairman.

1:48:50The first is that when we kept the 20 year stable, that sort of set our ladder.

1:48:56So if we're going to create a ladder, an escalation of engagement,

1:49:00we needed multiple steps on that ladder.

1:49:02But we didn't want to push out the ladder super far to make it, say,

1:49:0710 years and 15 years, or 7 and 12.

1:49:10Because this is also a question of when you next get eyes on the property.

1:49:13Because even though the windows are going to be handled, it might be that the porch isn't.

1:49:17It might be that the baseboards aren't.

1:49:18The stairs down to the basement, which are also a common source of lead-based paint.

1:49:22And so you need to balance the amount of time that you're giving with the next time

1:49:27that you're going to get eyes on the property and ensure that other parts

1:49:30that might have interim controls haven't deteriorated to the point that there are hazards.

1:49:35So giving additional time for windows is significant.

1:49:39But the further out we push the time, those are years when kids might be in the property

1:49:46and you don't have eyes on it.

1:49:47And so you don't want to push it out too far, and you don't want to make it too short.

1:49:51You're trying to sort of hit that sweet spot.

1:49:53>> And through the chair, if I may add, we agree with you that the carrot's not big enough,

1:49:56which is why you're going to see us, and hopefully you're all going to be part of this,

1:50:01raising funds so that we are not putting it just on the private sector to replace those windows.

1:50:06You know, we think we need to bring in more outside investment, more funders, and doing this work.

1:50:12Not only from a lead perspective, but from a sustainability perspective, too,

1:50:16to lower the cost of utilities.

1:50:18Newer windows are good for a number of reasons.

1:50:20So this is not the last you'll hear about the carrots.

1:50:22>> So tell me if I'm doing my math right.

1:50:24So say I come in with a passing lead risk assessment, and I've got new windows.

1:50:28I get a five-year certificate.

1:50:29Five years later, I come back.

1:50:31I have another passing lead risk assessment.

1:50:33My windows are still new.

1:50:36So I get another five years.

1:50:37That's 10.

1:50:38Then I come in, again, for my third.

1:50:41I'm now getting 10 years because now I'm on my third.

1:50:44So I've taken, I passed three tests, replaced some windows, and I've got 20 years of under this five, five, and 10.

1:50:52>> Along with maintaining the rest of the property and ensuring there are no lead hazards.

1:50:55>> Wow, yeah, it's not- >> Three times, yes.

1:50:57>> It's not a get out of jail free card for anybody else.

1:51:00Okay, my last question.

1:51:02So- >> Through the chair.

1:51:04>> I'm sorry, through the chair.

1:51:06On page 18, I'm a little bit confused about the authorization for

1:51:14the directors of departments to issue new rules.

1:51:20>> Yeah. >> This is F, this is 365.04F.

1:51:26>> Yep.

1:51:27>> It says the Director of Public Health and Director of Building and Housing are authorized to adopt rules and

1:51:31regulations as may be necessary for the proper interpretation and enforcement of this chapter.

1:51:37Such rules and regulations shall be published in the city record for two consecutive weeks and shall be effective after 30 days.

1:51:43Such rules and regulations shall have the force and effect of this chapter and continue in effect until revoked by the applicable director.

1:51:49So through the chair, could you explain to me an example of why you would need that?

1:51:52>> Absolutely, so this was the result of feedback from the lead risk assessor community,

1:51:58both at the coalition and elsewhere, that in adopting these local rules,

1:52:04we want to standardize and make predictable what a lead risk assessment means here in Cleveland.

1:52:11And so that has meant at times that the team at the health department needs to say things like, you have to add a picture of the porch floor.

1:52:20That's not required by ODH, but for a risk assessment in Cleveland, we want you to stand on the porch and take a photo of the porch floor.

1:52:27And we want to physically see that.

1:52:30And risk assessors asked us, and I think this was fair, to have a rulemaking process around adding requirements like that.

1:52:39So that you didn't get caught in a situation where the city said, you need to add a porch floor.

1:52:43And every single risk assessment you turn in from today forward needs to have that.

1:52:48Because when we do that fast, it has been frustration for

1:52:53landlords who have felt like, man, I already went through this process, now I have to add something again.

1:52:58But essentially, it's a rulemaking process to give a little bit more time so that when we put in that additional guidance,

1:53:04there's clarity and time for everyone to adopt those new standards before they go into effect.

1:53:10>> Through the Chair. >> Mr. Chair, I know my time is up, but I just want to flag a concern.

1:53:14I am a little bit worried about allowing the administration to basically rewrite internally different aspects of the legislation itself.

1:53:21I'm wondering if maybe that needs an amendment with legislative approval.

1:53:25>> Well, the only thing I'd say, Councilman, just to be out through the chair, to be very clear,

1:53:28we are absolutely not allowed to change any element of this legislation as an administration.

1:53:34This is the same thing when you have a federal rule, and then an administrative department puts in guidance to interpret it.

1:53:41So an example here is a movable and accessible window.

1:53:44You all will pass legislation if you choose to pass it that says you need to replace all movable and accessible windows.

1:53:51But the Director of Public Health's team might need to define a little bit what an accessible window is.

1:53:56Is a window in an attic with a pull down ladder accessible or not?

1:54:02And so we absolutely cannot change any element of the legislation, but we can add additional language to make it clear.

1:54:08>> Right, and through the Chair, that's what I'm getting at.

1:54:09So the additional language could be something that might be objected to by the body.

1:54:16It's just something for us to consider.

1:54:18It might be something that goes to finance, just for a question there.

1:54:21We're out of time, I don't have a club to review back on it, we'll see.

1:54:28Thank you. >> Thank you, Mr. Hartsch.

1:54:30>> I understand what you mean, I'll throw out there to a notification of new regulations to counsel for us to review and then overturn.

1:54:35Could be one other way to do it.

1:54:37>> Yeah, absolutely.

1:54:37>> The Chair recognizes Councilwoman House-Jones.

1:54:45>> Good morning, through the Chair to the team that is at hand.

1:54:49Thank you all so much for the time and effort that you have put in to bring this legislation forward.

1:54:54I have just a couple of questions.

1:54:57One is regarding the licensure that is being proposed.

1:55:02Can you all share and outline the main differences between the state licensure and

1:55:09then the city's proposed licensure that you're putting forth, where's their overlap, where's their differences?

1:55:16And what will be the time difference in getting the license from the state from the city?

1:55:24>> Thank you very much, Councilwoman, through the Chair.

1:55:26It will be the license that you have at ODH will be your ticket to a license here in Cleveland.

1:55:32The difference will be that if you violate the rules of that risk assessor license,

1:55:38Cleveland will then have the authority immediately to say you no longer are within our program.

1:55:44ODH can strip your license on ODH's timeline, but we then have the ability to remove somebody

1:55:50who acts improperly subject to the due process laid out in the law.

1:55:54It allows us to move faster, but there is no difference in licensure through the Chair.

1:56:00>> So as a follow up of the Chair, to the team, you said there's no difference in the license.

1:56:08So just walk me through what that looks like.

1:56:12>> Through the Chair, if I may, so as I mentioned earlier,

1:56:15we have had a few lead risk assessors do fraudulent reporting where they've edited the PDF themselves.

1:56:22And so we send that information to the state where they do an investigation over two to three months.

1:56:28To eventually revoke the license of that lead risk assessor.

1:56:31During that two or three months, that lead risk assessor is still out there taking money from your residents and

1:56:38submitting reports that we unfortunately can't accept because we know there's fraudulent behavior happening.

1:56:43And so this allows us to quickly notify your residents

1:56:49not to be able to revoke that lead risk assessment license so that lead risk assessors continue to take money from your residents.

1:56:58>> Through the Chair, to the team, why can't you do that now?

1:57:02>> We don't have the legislative, through the Chair, we don't have the legislative authority.

1:57:05>> To do what?

1:57:06>> To be able to revoke the Ohio Department of Health lead risk assessor license.

1:57:15>> So I'm just still just trying to, so if someone is operating fraudulently, what do you do now?

1:57:21>> We report it to the Ohio Department of Health, and we don't.

1:57:25>> Just a clarification, through the Chair, aren't you a subsidiary of the Department of Health?

1:57:29>> Through the, and for this program, no, we're not.

1:57:32So we are the local delegated authority for our lead investigation of poison children.

1:57:36And we are the local delegated authority for food safety, for air quality, for various programs.

1:57:42But this is a program that is city specific because of the legislation.

1:57:47>> So when I, through the Chair, to the team here, I wanted to ask clarification.

1:57:52When someone goes to get their lead inspector license from the state, what happens?

1:57:59What are you proposing to happen next?

1:58:01What is the time duration?

1:58:02What's the cost?

1:58:03Go from there.

1:58:04>> Yeah, absolutely.

1:58:06So I actually went through and got my lead risk assessor license earlier this year.

1:58:10So to get your lead risk assessor license from the state of Ohio, you have to take a week long course and study for an exam.

1:58:17You have to pay some fees and then you'll eventually end up with your lead risk assessor license.

1:58:23What we're proposing is that that lead risk assessor license for the state of Ohio is your ticket to a local license.

1:58:30That we don't add additional requirements to it.

1:58:33We say, hey, if you have the ODH license, you can then get a Cleveland license.

1:58:37And that Cleveland license is what you need to participate in our program.

1:58:41This is the same thing that Toledo's doing.

1:58:43But then what that means is that- >> Can I interject real quick?

1:58:46>> So at that point, so how does that happen?

1:58:48You get a lead license from the state and you said, then you get the Cleveland license.

1:58:53What does that mean and what is the process?

1:58:55>> Yeah, thank you through the chair to the councilwoman.

1:58:57We've talked with the staff a little bit until the laws passed.

1:59:00We haven't formalized it, but we've talked about something as simple as a Microsoft Form Councilwoman.

1:59:05That you just say, hey, this is my name, information, my license.

1:59:10And then you get on a list that's then on the city website.

1:59:13That's what Toledo does through the chair to the councilwoman.

1:59:16>> The chair to the team, so you all don't know specifically how you're going to do it?

1:59:21>> Through the chair to the councilwoman, we've absolutely talked about it.

1:59:23But I wouldn't want to presume that it's going to pass until it passes, but the Microsoft Form is what we've discussed.

1:59:30>> Through the chair to the team, regardless of if stuff passed or not,

1:59:34you need to have a very clearly identified process.

1:59:38We should be talking about these things.

1:59:39And regardless if it passed or not, you need to be very clear on this is going to be the standard.

1:59:44>> Yeah, of course.

1:59:46>> Thank you, Councilwoman.

1:59:46I appreciate that feedback.

1:59:48I apologize if I misstated.

1:59:49I didn't want to come in and presume and say that it was all sorted until it had passed, but I apologize if that came across poorly.

1:59:58>> I think that's one of the things, just from my perspective to this body.

2:00:02Things should be clear, and this is for all legislation.

2:00:05It doesn't matter if it passed or not.

2:00:06That's part of the plan.

2:00:08So how can you clearly articulate to people if things aren't clearly comprehensive?

2:00:12This is the plan, this is how we're going to do it, and this is where we're going to move forward.

2:00:16Many times it's like, in my opinion, things aren't clearly outlined or

2:00:24I'm going to say clear from me as a legislator to say yes to.

2:00:29So it's the expectation then that we pass the legislation.

2:00:35Then you're going to come up with a proposal.

2:00:38>> Thank you, Councilwoman.

2:00:39I feel very confident that every element of this law as proposed, we have a plan to implement by February 2027.

2:00:50>> Okay, I'm going to move on.

2:00:53The other question that I had for the chair to the team here is on your presentation handout.

2:01:06You indicated the last step four, step five, or phase three, four, or five.

2:01:1326 and 27, the administrative and partner work.

2:01:19What would success actually look like in 26 and 27?

2:01:24What are the actual goals?

2:01:25Like in numbers?

2:01:26>> Absolutely, thank you, Councilwoman.

2:01:29As the city in engaging with this legislative process,

2:01:32this is absolutely our road map in 26 and 27, so fully implementing the law is absolutely ours.

2:01:39The Let's Say Cleveland Coalition is the private part of our private partnership.

2:01:44They are going through their own strategic road mapping, and I know are looking forward to releasing the results of that road mapping in 2027.

2:01:53>> Clarification through the chair to the team.

2:01:55So we're having legislation, but we don't have a defined set of goals of what we want to get accomplished once the legislation is passed as it relates to enforcement and rebuild resources.

2:02:09I just want to make sure I'm hearing that correctly.

2:02:11We don't have it as of today.

2:02:13>> Councilwoman, we want to coordinate it with our partners who are going through their own road mapping process.

2:02:17And I think you've heard a little bit about some of the enforcement goals from the director of building and housing as well.

2:02:25>> Okay, so asking the question again through the chair to the team here.

2:02:28So we do not have the actual goals that we want to get accomplished when we pass this legislation as it relates to enforcement and

2:02:37rebuild resources in 26, I mean, 26 and 27. >> Through the chair, the intent of this slide was to show that today we're discussing those first three buckets.

2:02:48And so the legislation affects those three buckets.

2:02:51And as I pointed out to one of your colleagues earlier, we're continuing to do the work to raise the funds to be able to invest in those areas.

2:03:00>> But we don't have a goal as it is outlined.

2:03:04>> Through the chair, I'm the co-chair for the Road Mapping Committee as part of the Lead Safe Cleveland Coalition.

2:03:11And so that's something we hope to have by the end of the year.

2:03:15>> So through the chair to the team, so we're going to pass the legislation without any goals.

2:03:19>> Through the chair, that's not what we said.

2:03:22>> Well, that's what I'm asking.

2:03:23>> Through the chair, regarding four and five, that's not part of the legislation.

2:03:29One, two, and three is part of the legislation.

2:03:31We do have, we have articulated what we're trying to do with those three buckets today.

2:03:46>> So I will say this, but you're doing one, two, and three so that you can't get to enforcement.

2:03:54Or no, they are not the same, all right?

2:03:58>> Through the chair to the councilman enforcement is in my wheelhouse, and it's going on now.

2:04:03And it's going to go on until I have every single rental property that's in the shadows in enforcement and in compliance.

2:04:12That is the goal.

2:04:18>> Through the chair to the team, this is, what is the timeline that we think that we're trying to get to 100% compliance?

2:04:26Because we know, how long has this been going on right now?

2:04:29>> Seven years.

2:04:31>> Decades, I mean, 100 plus years that we've been using lead-based paint in the city.

2:04:36>> You said what?

2:04:37>> Lead-based paint was used in the city for over 100 years.

2:04:40>> How long have we had a system in place to work to try to hold people accountable?

2:04:48>> Through the chair to the council woman, with the passage of residence first, a couple of years ago you gave us a lot more tools in our toolbox.

2:04:55That we are now deploying and have been deploying since those were implemented.

2:05:00And we have issued thousands and thousands of civil tickets.

2:05:03Which is yielding results as we've seen from the rental registry going from somewhere under 60,000 units to now over 70,000 units.

2:05:12So we're closing in on that gap.

2:05:14Do I have an exact figure as to when we might close it entirely?

2:05:17No, but I know that we are giving it everything we've got every year that we sit and do this work.

2:05:23>> Okay, thank you.

2:05:25>> Councilman, any final thoughts?

2:05:29On our list is Councilman Jones, followed by Councilman Hudson, wanted some time.

2:05:33Councilman Harsh, do you want more time at the end?

2:05:38Very good.

2:05:39Councilman Jones.

2:05:40>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I might need some more time too.

2:05:43Just all depends, right?

2:05:46So let's get started.

2:05:49I just want to make sure I have clarification in terms of summary of what I've heard thus far.

2:05:53So we're moving from two year term to a three year term, correct?

2:05:58>> Through the chair to the councilman, correct.

2:06:00>> And Mr. Chairman, then we, in the three year term,

2:06:07if they, what are they required to do in terms of just the basics to get to the five years?

2:06:14>> Through the chair to the councilman, if you can show that your property is led safe

2:06:20through a passing lead risk assessment that shows no active lead hazards on your property.

2:06:25And you can show that you've replaced all moveable and accessible windows, then you can get to five years.

2:06:31>> Okay, then if I want to get to 20 years, what would it have to do?

2:06:36>> Absolutely, you would have to show that every single source of lead based paint on your property has been abated in one form or another.

2:06:43And abatement can include removal, like replacing windows.

2:06:47It can also include things like encapsulation or enclosure, but not just the windows, but

2:06:52every baseboard, every piece of trim, every bit of siding, every bit of stairs.

2:06:56Every single source of lead based paint on the property would have to have gone through an abatement process.

2:07:01>> And then I can get to that 20 years.

2:07:03>> That's how you get to 20 years, through the chair to the councilman.

2:07:05>> And so then when you put this together, right, we're going to presume create the brochures so

2:07:11they can educate the people exactly what it is they have to do?

2:07:14>> Absolutely, through the chair to the councilman.

2:07:16>> I see.

2:07:16>> So then the next step of this would be, because I saw on here it was a debate with the Lead Safe Coalition.

2:07:28And that maybe there was a recommendation for 40 years, are you familiar with that?

2:07:34>> Yeah, absolutely, councilman.

2:07:35>> Can you tell me a little bit about that?

2:07:36>> Yeah, absolutely.

2:07:38As part of the evolution of these recommendations,

2:07:41we've gone through a few different iterations of what should happen at that point of full abatement.

2:07:48>> Because they get the 20 and they still look good.

2:07:51Can they go to another 20 that makes it 40, or does it, or we just jump from the five to 40?

2:07:57>> Yeah, it's a great question.

2:07:57So after the 20 year certificate is up, they can absolutely come back again and get a second 20 year certificate to get you to 40 years.

2:08:04But there's not a formal 40 year certificate in the final proposal,

2:08:08because that was not recommended by our partners at the coalition.

2:08:12>> Let's see, and then, now, here's the thing that would be really helpful for members.

2:08:18And certainly helpful for me because, unfortunately, the city of Cleveland has a

2:08:23notorious record of giving money back to the government.

2:08:30>> Yeah. >> Yeah, and I think you used the term, we've been dealing with this for 100 years.

2:08:37And we just gave back what, how much, Mr. Chairman?

2:08:45>> Less than, yeah, it was this path earlier this year.

2:08:48>> So I'm not a person sitting here at the table like give any money away.

2:08:52In fact, I want all the money and we can get the flow into the city of Cleveland if I

2:08:56had a magic ball can make millions come in here and bring all the kind of investments in.

2:09:00I would be one of those people who would advocate that, even keeping the Cleveland Browns in the city of Cleveland, I would advocate that too.

2:09:06So now, with that being said, I know I put my politics there a little bit, but

2:09:11just wanted to, Mr. Chairman, to the director suggest a flow chart.

2:09:17>> Yeah. >> Because we have building the housing doing what it's doing, we don't know.

2:09:24All of the particulars and facts we don't have in any county, and earlier when I started my testimony,

2:09:30I asked some questions and I wasn't trying to stir the pot, so to speak.

2:09:36But wanted to have an actual physical accounting of what we spent so far.

2:09:41>> Yeah, of course.

2:09:43>> And then how to, because see, for me sitting here at the table, it's what you can feel in touch.

2:09:48>> Yep. >> If I can't feel it and touch it, I don't understand what I'm getting here.

2:09:53>> Yeah. >> I don't understand what the deal is.

2:09:55And so right now, for me, I'm kind of left confused.

2:10:00Because we have been working on this for more than we started here in this last piece about seven years ago.

2:10:06That's a lot of time.

2:10:09And hopefully if God gives me the energy, I'll be here another seven years from now to still hopefully not be talking about it,

2:10:15but be giving you guys an award for the success that you have brought us all the way down, Lord, in any other city within our region.

2:10:23So I'm optimistic, though, but I think we need a flow chart.

2:10:28So we need to know what building housing is doing.

2:10:30We need to know what the health department is fundamentally doing.

2:10:32We need to know how this process is working.

2:10:35We need to have an accountability on how many homes have been impacted.

2:10:38If we spent 35 million, and I asked a question, I'm quite sure the director wouldn't have an answer to the question, or maybe she would.

2:10:45How many homes have been lead assessed in the city of Cleveland after $35 million expenditure?

2:10:52You can see all those things are important, because then for me, I need to know how much more money I need to account for to deal with the issue.

2:11:00So that's the question.

2:11:02>> Absolutely, through the chair to the councilman, it's a fantastic set of questions.

2:11:05And absolutely part of my role, this title of senior advisor for lead accountability is increasing that transparency and clarity.

2:11:13And I absolutely think we should have additional conversations about pillars four and five, because I'm happy to talk you through, hey, this was a source of ARPA money.

2:11:22This was a source of ODOD dollars.

2:11:24These are the HUD dollars that have come up.

2:11:26It's really confusing for people, and you can spend, frankly, your whole working career figuring it out.

2:11:32I would love to talk everyone through it, where we're at, what the expectations are for those funds.

2:11:38My only goal here today is to clarify that that source of funding isn't on the table for this legislation, but it is part of the entire LeadSafe ecosystem.

2:11:47>> Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to sit here and ask the question.

2:11:51I made a suggestion and I asked the question.

2:11:54The suggestion was, I know why we hit the table, and you can't just isolate a part in peace.

2:12:02We're looking at the whole picture here.

2:12:03So I suggest that there be a flow chart.

2:12:05We got a problem.

2:12:07And see, the last thing I want to be doing sitting here at the end of this table, Mr. Chairman, doesn't matter how you shot me.

2:12:13Whether you shot me on mistake or you shot me on purpose, I'm still dead.

2:12:16And what we've been dealing with is an issue where I've been shot all over the place.

2:12:20My people have been shot all over the place.

2:12:22But what I'm asking you for, Mr. Chairman, to the director, is a flow chart of who's accountable to what.

2:12:28>> Yep. >> And so as we pass this piece here, we're talking about accountability.

2:12:34We're also talking about relief from what my understanding is for contractors and for people who own properties.

2:12:40And that's why we're really here.

2:12:41I get that.

2:12:42What I'm asking you for is the big picture here on who's accountable.

2:12:47>> Yeah. >> So then I asked the question, Mr. Chairman, to the director, how many houses we spent $35 million?

2:12:54I want to be able to have, in my mind, an accountability of what's going on because I don't get an opportunity.

2:12:59I don't know if you come here and this is, I'm now sitting on this new committee.

2:13:03I don't know if you come here every quarter and make presentations to us about this issue.

2:13:07So maybe I'm behind, but since I don't know, I would like to know where we are.

2:13:11>> Yeah. >> We spent $35 million.

2:13:13How many homes have we assessed?

2:13:15>> Thank you, Councilman.

2:13:16I'm more than happy to provide that flow chart, and I think we can dive into the numbers.

2:13:22I think, yeah, I'm more than happy to do that.

2:13:24>> So how many homes have we assessed?

2:13:26>> So the Councilman, through the Chair to the Councilman, I think the challenge with your question is that the $35 million isn't a measurement of homes assessed.

2:13:34The number of homes assessed is a little higher than the number of homes that have been certified.

2:13:39So those are different- >> Mr. Chairman, it's an easy question, and I want her to filibuster, Mr. Chairman.

2:13:43>> No, I- >> So the director, it's a real simple question.

2:13:47How many homes at this space and time have we assessed in seven years, and when the program is up and running, do we go 100?

2:13:54Do we do five?

2:13:55Do we do 75?

2:13:57Do you even know?

2:13:58>> Through the Councilman to the Chair, that $35 million does not pay for the assessments.

2:14:03The landlords pay for the assessments.

2:14:05>> So how many assessments have we done, Mr. Chairman, in the city of Cleveland?

2:14:09>> Through the Chair to the Councilman, the city does not conduct the risk assessments.

2:14:13That is part of the way our program is set up.

2:14:14>> Is there anybody, Mr. Chairman, sitting here at the table that can tell me how many homes have we assessed?

2:14:19Can the director of health tell us?

2:14:20Because apparently Mrs. Rebecca Maurer doesn't know.

2:14:24>> Yeah, no. >> And if I may, how many homes are in the lead, have certified as lead safe?

2:14:28>> Absolutely, so that is on this slide to talk about the number of homes in compliance is roughly 31,000 units.

2:14:37Those- >> Mr. Chairman, the question is really a simple question.

2:14:40I don't know why we're darting all over.

2:14:42Now, I support the legislation, but you're making it very uneasy for me.

2:14:45>> Yeah. >> It's just like the same example of our colleague, Councilwoman Stephanie House Jones.

2:14:50She asked a simple question, and you went all the way around and filibustered it.

2:14:53>> I'm not asking for a filibuster.

2:14:55I'm only asking for a simple question to be asked so I can be supportive of your legislation.

2:15:00It seems like it's impossible to get.

2:15:02It's like squeezing blood and can't get it out of the turnover.

2:15:04>> I'm sorry, Councilman, I'm sorry I haven't been able to convey it clearly.

2:15:0831,000 units are in compliance, which means that they've been assessed or a part of a risk assessment.

2:15:14>> So we have 31,000, I understand that's in compliance.

2:15:17But the question that I asked you is how many of these have went through this program?

2:15:22So if you're saying that you did 31,000, so did you do 61,000, half wasn't in compliance?

2:15:29Was there 150,000, Mr. Chairman, to the distinguished director?

2:15:34I mean, what are we looking at?

2:15:35I just don't know.

2:15:35>> Thank you. >> And the reason why I'm asking the question, Mr. Chairman, is because at some point, the money's going to run out.

2:15:43And you're going to be sitting back here at the table with another piece talking about, well, we ain't talking about all these things we're talking about, we just need more money.

2:15:49And so what I'm trying to assess here in my mind is just how much, how many homes have been assessed thus far.

2:15:58So if it's this amount plus, what's the total?

2:16:02>> Thank you, Councilman.

2:16:03What I'll do is I'll provide a slide that we present at the Lead Safe Advisory Board every quarter that shows the number of denied risk assessments.

2:16:10And ones that were found with hazards, and that it will be a little more than 31,000.

2:16:16>> And Mr. Chairman, I just want to make sure we're clear sitting here at this table in terms of accounting.

2:16:21Because we're facing uncertainty in terms of funds and resources, Mr. Chairman.

2:16:27The federal government is crazy.

2:16:29We have this orange hemorrhoid in public office up there, and he's driving everybody insane.

2:16:35And so because of the uncomfortability, we need to have an assessment.

2:16:41We need to really have an accounting because, and if we've spent 35 million now,

2:16:47then we'll spend another 35 million in another two years or three years.

2:16:51And then we need to go back and try to come back to the drawing board to deal with this.

2:16:55So what will help me, Mr. Chairman, to the directors having that flow chart, having the ideal.

2:17:00What we're accounted for thus far.

2:17:03What is the expectations of or

2:17:07projections of the future in terms of account money and

2:17:13also how many are we actually really hitting and touching?

2:17:18And I appreciate your presentations earlier with explaining to the committee,

2:17:23at least, that we have this issue but it's so elusive.

2:17:28I guess that's the term I would use.

2:17:30>> Mr. Chair, I had to put you back on too, if you have more to say.

2:17:32>> I'm going to finish it up if you let me.

2:17:35Appreciate you, Mr. Chairman, for your patience.

2:17:38So I want to be able to understand the big picture here.

2:17:41I do support this legislation in terms of giving relief.

2:17:44I do support what we have in front of us.

2:17:46But sitting here at this table, I do want to make sure that we have an accounting because I want to be able to know what we're going to do.

2:17:51And I know the next folks that are going to come, they're going to ask us for money too.

2:17:54So at the end of the day, I want to be able to make sure that I'm an accounting for what's being done.

2:18:00And then hopefully, we can come back with a happy story.

2:18:04So with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield and I don't need to be put back on.

2:18:08>> Thank you, Mr. Jones.

2:18:09Councilwoman Hudson's asked for just a couple quick clarifying follow ups.

2:18:13>> Thank you.

2:18:15Through the chair to whoever can answer this question, presumably Dr. Margolias.

2:18:21Currently, the CDC requires testing of children enrolled in Medicaid between the ages of 12 and

2:18:2724 months or 24 and 72 months that haven't been tested before.

2:18:32Separate from that, it is asked to focus on kids in high risk neighborhoods.

2:18:40But in addition, immigrants and refugees specifically.

2:18:45And then as of October 1st of this year,

2:18:50Medicaid eligibility has been significantly narrowed.

2:18:55Specifically for the target population of kids who are immigrants and refugees.

2:19:01Is there a plan to try and target those kids who are absolutely going to fall through the cracks?

2:19:08>> Yeah, so through the chair, thank you so much.

2:19:11The Ohio department of, well, the Ohio revised code, I believe,

2:19:16has that requirement for all children in high risk neighborhoods, which really applies to all of Cleveland that are tested and for Medicaid.

2:19:25And so the good news about all the terrible things that are happening with Medicaid is that for

2:19:30the most part children aren't affected and will continue to have that coverage.

2:19:36And so we've done a ton of work over the last a year plus to improve the rate of children tested,

2:19:43especially of children who are attending wellness visits, where that percentage has gone from 69% to just about 80% of children being tested.

2:19:52And so our strategy has been to work to improve and increase the number of children accessing those wellness visits so

2:19:59that we know that they'll get their lead test and their childhood immunizations and all the other milestone checks that happen at those visits.

2:20:07>> Thank you, I appreciate that.

2:20:09But it's my understanding that this narrowing will exempt children who are immigrants and refugees from Medicaid.

2:20:18So if they don't have health insurance, how are we going to capture them?

2:20:23>> Through the chair, I will have to get back to you on that, but I believe that children are still going to qualify for Medicaid in this pool.

2:20:35>> Thank you.

2:20:36>> And it might be through the chair that they qualify under a different bucket as opposed to the bucket that they were on that ended October 1st.

2:20:44>> And I believe through the chair that Ohio could exempt, but they're choosing not to.

2:20:51Currently, the state of Ohio is not choosing to expand Medicaid eligibility to children of immigrants and refugees.

2:20:59So, I mean, perhaps we get the right governor in there, then maybe that'll change, but-

2:21:05>> Keep going.

2:21:05>> Thank you.

2:21:07>> Hi, sweetie, my man.

2:21:09>> It's a moral failure, it is.

2:21:11>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:21:12>> Councilman Harsh, do you have any more?

2:21:13Okay, great.

2:21:14Then, Chair, wrap us up.

2:21:17>> I was listening to all you guys.

2:21:22Councilmember Joe Jones, Councilmember House Jones, the Jones, we do need a process analysis.

2:21:34Not just a flow chart, because a flow chart would tell you who's responsible for work workload.

2:21:41But if you do a process analysis, how it goes in different milestones, you're going to hit.

2:21:47And it also is correlated with who is responsible for that.

2:21:52And then that way we can measure what Councilwoman House Jones as well as Councilmember Joe Jones was talking about.

2:22:02>> Absolutely, I completely agree, Chairman, and we can have that prepared for finance next week.

2:22:08>> All right, so I did hear what you were saying.

2:22:11And you know what, when we were doing this, I was listening to you know, good points.

2:22:18You could, moving forward, we could do a process analysis at the same time we're doing this, it just could be overlapping.

2:22:26>> Yeah.

2:22:26>> Because you could do that when you do a program as well as a project.

2:22:31>> Absolutely, and I think it is really challenging for the public to understand how diverse our ecosystem is around lead.

2:22:39There are dozens and dozens of people who wake up every single day, and their job is to help protect kids from lead poisoning.

2:22:46And they might work at other organizations, some of them work here in the city, but there's a lot of confusion in the community.

2:22:52And part of my role is also not to over promise for the city, and so I'll make sure that that document focuses on our processes.

2:22:59Here at the city, and the ways that this legislation relates to a city program.

2:23:03And there is a lot of work happening in non-city programs.

2:23:07And understanding where those programs intersect and who's responsible and accountable for them is, I think, top of mind.

2:23:15And I think the questions today really hit that home, so I can absolutely take that forward.

2:23:19>> You know what, councilmember, Becca is also in the neighborhoods.

2:23:26She's walking in the community, talking with key stakeholders,

2:23:32looking at what's going on and not just taking it on the paper.

2:23:39>> Yeah. >> So she's in the neighborhood.

2:23:40Matter of fact, we were together Friday.

2:23:45>> Mm-hm. >> And we went on East 112th Street and you looked at Ms. Crowder House.

2:23:51>> Yeah. >> And so she's out, actually, but she just got here.

2:23:55She's out there in the neighborhood as well, but I know she's looking at your point there as well.

2:24:01>> I appreciate you, Mr. Chairman, and I can concur, I made a phone call to her, had a constituent on the phone.

2:24:09And the director took good care of her, and it was like a breath off of another problem down.

2:24:14Let's go with the next issue for me all the time.

2:24:17So I appreciate, Mr. Chairman, the director is responsive to phone calls.

2:24:23And so, and then her prior previous employment, walking is not-

2:24:29>> No stranger to it.

2:24:32>> She's just right here.

2:24:33>> So I agree with you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate the fact that you talked about how we should do this so

2:24:39we can have a further understanding of where we are with this.

2:24:43>> You know what, Councilman Durst, it is past Thursday at my community meeting.

2:24:50I was talking with some residents about the lead, and they're having people are returning their phone calls, picking up the phones.

2:24:58One lady said that she didn't get her phone call returned, and I said, well, let me call Rebecca.

2:25:04And I called her on the first hand, click, and we talked with the resident councilman, and I put you out on the phone.

2:25:10>> Yeah, sure did.

2:25:11>> Yeah, she talked with her, and should be some good outcome measures.

2:25:17So I got a chance to get up close view working with her.

2:25:21>> Thank you very much, Chairman.

2:25:22Thank you very much, Councilman.

2:25:24I know that even before the director became the director,

2:25:30she bothered me and pester me about her board appointments in terms of lead safety.

2:25:36So she's a great addition.

2:25:39>> Yeah, thank you.

2:25:40How good are you, Mr. Chair?

2:25:42>> Very good, no further questions, I think, from this side of the table.

2:25:46Time to take a vote, is that right?

2:25:47>> Yeah, with that, ordinance number-

2:25:51>> So, ordinance number 1244-2026 by Councilmembers Conwell, Griffin, and Hudson by departmental request.

2:25:59An emergency ordinance to repeal various sections of chapter 365 and 240 of the codified ordinances of the city of Cleveland,

2:26:061976 as amended by various ordinances to supplement the codified ordinances by enacting new sections

2:26:12365.01 through 365.10, 240.05 through 240.08,

2:26:19all related to Lead Safe Certificate Program, Lead Safety, and various civil penalties.

2:26:24And to repeal section seven of ordinance number 747-2019 past July 24th, 2019.

2:26:30>> Call the roll?

2:26:32>> Yep.

2:26:36>> Yes.

2:26:37>> Yes.

2:26:43>> Yes.

2:26:46>> Congratulations.

2:26:47>> Thank you very much.

2:26:48>> The first major update to our lead ordinance in seven years.

2:26:51>> Yes. >> Fantastic, congratulations.

2:26:52>> Thank you very much, Councilmembers, I appreciate the robust questions.

2:26:59>> Very good.

2:27:00Of course, there may be a brief bathroom pause, but we're right on time, 11.47.

2:27:08Next up is ordinance number 1230-2026 by Councilmembers Conwell, Santana, and Griffin by departmental request.

2:27:14An emergency ordinance to supplement the codified ordinances of Cleveland, Ohio, 1976 by enacting new section 141.40 relating to a good food retailer certification program.

2:27:23And authorize a job retention income tax credit initiative program for the good food retailers subject to separate council legislation authorizing each individual tax credit.

2:27:31To provide economic development incentives for the purposes of fostering job retention.

2:27:35And improving the economic welfare of the people of the city as authorized in Article 8, Section 13 through Howard Constitution.

2:27:42Director, good to see you again.

2:27:44>> Chief, then David, I don't know your formal title actually.

2:27:47So we'd like to start us off, do a quick round of introductions, and then get to the presentation.

2:27:52>> Excellent, thank you, good to be with you all.

2:27:55Dave Margolis, Director of Public Health.

2:27:57To my left is Chief of Integrative Development, Tom McNair.

2:28:00To my right is Superstar from the Director of Development, David Lucas, who will share his exact title.

2:28:05>> David, what is your exact title?

2:28:07>> Deputy Director of Business Growth.

2:28:08>> Thank you, Deputy Director.

2:28:11>> And with that, David Lucas is going to take it away.

2:28:16>> Great.

2:28:17Through the chair, happy to run through our presentation and

2:28:22maybe just quickly set up some discussion around what we're hoping to accomplish today.

2:28:27So what we are proposing is the creation of, it's almost two separate actions.

2:28:33The creation of the Good Food Retailer Certification Program.

2:28:37And then the creation of a supplemental incentive

2:28:42that is attached to those who receive the certification as a good food retailer.

2:28:47So it's all one presentation, it's all one effort, but

2:28:51I just want to kind of separate and set the expectation.

2:28:54These are two different, two separate actions within this one request.

2:28:59With that we have a deck that we can run through quickly just to set the landscape here.

2:29:09It's no secret Cleveland is suffering the loss of grocery stores dating back several decades.

2:29:16Anytime a grocery store closes, residents of the city of Cleveland are now faced with the challenge of finding quality foods.

2:29:26We know that food deserts are a real problem in the city of Cleveland.

2:29:32And we have never had a response that is part of a solution to address those concerns.

2:29:40Speaking from economic development at least, we have never had a response to help them and maybe move the needle on keeping these stores open.

2:29:49So as part of our opportunity here, we can support grocers.

2:29:53We can help them not only retain jobs, but preserve access to food.

2:29:57And this is a wonderful collaboration between public health and

2:30:00economic development that we hope will be the beginning of solving this problem.

2:30:07So the good food retailer certification is going to be a way that we will

2:30:13certify grocers that we feel are delivering a public good to the community by the way that they offer food.

2:30:22The first thing that a grocer must do to obtain this good food retailer certification is demonstrate a financial need.

2:30:30So we will review the financial statements that grocers provide when they apply.

2:30:36We'll allow them to make their case for why they are experiencing a financial difficulty.

2:30:40And that will serve as the basis for if and when they receive the certification itself.

2:30:47That's not the only thing we're going to look at.

2:30:49We're not just looking at the numbers.

2:30:50We're also looking at the practices that they incorporate into just the way their business is set up.

2:30:59Do you want me to run through these, Dr. Marguoli?

2:31:02>> Yes. >> Okay.

2:31:03So we want to see a minimum percentage of fresh nutritious food of at least 40%.

2:31:12But we're going to look at the blend of their product mix.

2:31:16How much of their products is fresh nutritious foods versus any other foods or products in general.

2:31:26So we don't want to fund super stores, super centers, super markets if they're not just focusing on food.

2:31:33And that's the intent of that criteria.

2:31:36We want to make sure they accept SNAP and WIC.

2:31:39We want to see how many Cleveland residents they hire.

2:31:43We're going to look at the wages that they provide to those employees.

2:31:47Are they above the minimum wage?

2:31:50And then how far above the minimum wage are they?

2:31:53We want to review the environmentally sustainable practices that they incorporate.

2:31:59Which we've given some examples of what that looks like.

2:32:01Water conservation, energy efficient measures that they might deploy.

2:32:07And any other environmental sustainable practices that they adhere to.

2:32:12We want to look and see do they donate excess food to local food pantries,

2:32:18meal programs or mutual aid organizations and any other practices along those lines.

2:32:26And then obtaining food or other products from local grocers or producers in Ohio.

2:32:35So this is part of our efforts to promote a local circular food economy.

2:32:43So all these things we're going to review.

2:32:46And then when we're ready to recommend which grocers should receive the certification,

2:32:54we come back to council.

2:32:56We explain each one.

2:32:57We explain why we're recommending each one.

2:33:00You'll have the ability to understand our recommendations.

2:33:04And then we hope that you'll support the certifications.

2:33:08At the same time, we bring these recommendations back to council.

2:33:12The ones that council does decide to certify, hopefully all of them, that we recommend.

2:33:18Then they will also, council will also pass an action to unlock the retention tax credit.

2:33:24Which I'll go into next.

2:33:29So as part of any grocer that is certified, they are eligible.

2:33:35They will be eligible as we're proposing for the job retention income tax credit.

2:33:40I've outlined some of how this retention income tax credit will function.

2:33:47And I'm sure we'll have some discussion around this.

2:33:50But I will say this job retention tax credit is available exclusively to certified good food retailers.

2:33:58That of course demonstrate a financial need.

2:34:01So this retention tax credit is not being considered for any other use in economic development aside from the certified retailers that go through our program.

2:34:11This income tax credit will be up to 100%, and it's calculated based on the income taxes that the grocer pays to the city of Cleveland.

2:34:20So as part of our trip back to council when we're bringing individual

2:34:25grocers and the ones that we recommend, we will also indicate which tax credit we recommend that they receive.

2:34:32Whether it's a 75% tax credit, 100% tax credit, we'll have the ability to present that,

2:34:39defend that and council will have the ability to ask questions about that.

2:34:45The term will be two years for the tax credit and for the certification.

2:34:49So when we certify, we do it for a two year period.

2:34:53At the end of that two year period, the certification expires and

2:34:57anyone who received the certification would have to come back and start the process all over again.

2:35:01But we're choosing and we're proposing a two year cycle for the certification and for the tax credit.

2:35:08During that two year period, they have to provide reporting to continue that certification.

2:35:13So, of course, we're going to maintain communication.

2:35:16They're going to continue to report how they're performing against all the metrics that caused us to recommend them in the first place.

2:35:24All the sustainability practices, the hiring practices, the financial need, they'll continue to provide us information.

2:35:31If they don't demonstrate financial need, for example, during that two year term,

2:35:37then we have the ability to remove the tax credit and revoke their certification.

2:35:44But, of course, the whole point of us certifying them to begin with is because we felt like there was a financial circumstance that we were addressing.

2:35:54I've said this again, I've said this several times now, but each tax credit requires separate legislative authorization.

2:36:02And then I know it's going to be a question, so I just may as well get ahead of it.

2:36:06Some of you have already kind of inquired about this.

2:36:10How much is it going to cost?

2:36:11What's going to be the impact to the budget by offering this retention tax credit?

2:36:16Of course, there's no way to know for sure until we bring our recommendations to council, and then council approves some or all of them.

2:36:23That's the only way we're going to know for sure.

2:36:25But our finance department has given us a rough estimate, and the range is somewhere between 500,000 and a million.

2:36:37But that is just a rough estimate, so please keep that in mind.

2:36:43Just a quick run-through of how this kind of flows through our departments and then to council.

2:36:49So the grocer applies for certification.

2:36:53We review it, first of all, public health will determine eligibility.

2:36:58They'll kind of take the cursory review.

2:37:01Public health will then collaborate with Department of Development to review the eligible grocers and

2:37:09take recommendations for council approval.

2:37:12Meanwhile, development will negotiate the tax credit documents based on our review and recommendation.

2:37:21We'll make sure that clauses are involved in the contracts, such as retention requirements,

2:37:28what percentage, what term the tax credit will go for.

2:37:32And then after all of that is ready, we present everything to council, and not only for the certifications,

2:37:39but for the tax credits themselves.

2:37:43After we've closed and after we're under contracts, the grocer submits ongoing reports, as I've said.

2:37:48They have to maintain that certification throughout the two-year period.

2:37:52After that two-year period, the certification and tax credit both expire and grocers may reapply for certification.

2:38:00And then as far as what one might look like, the illustration below shows a $250,000 payroll.

2:38:07That amount of payroll would owe $6,250 to the City of Cleveland in income taxes.

2:38:14Assuming 100% tax credit, of course, that's $6,250.

2:38:18And then over that two-year period, that's $12,500.

2:38:22That money can be used to help the grocer invest in upgraded equipment, make repairs to their grocery store.

2:38:34Whatever it is that they need relief from, that's two years' worth of relief for almost $13,000.

2:38:40And that's real money that the grocer is going to feel.

2:38:44As far as next steps and kind of long-term vision, the goal is to continue to build out a pot of money that will supplement the tax credit.

2:38:55The tax credit itself won't solve this problem.

2:38:58The tax credit will provide relief, but oftentimes, grocers need to make investments,

2:39:06bigger investments in equipment in their stores and their people.

2:39:11So as part of the foundation that we are building, the goal then is to leverage this and to apply for grants,

2:39:17and to bring capital in to fund some sort of a pot of money that we'll call the Good Food Retail Fund.

2:39:28Beyond that, we'll expand the program to enhance our ability to attract good food retailers.

2:39:33We have tools in economic development for attraction, but we would like to have a special and dedicated fund for grocers.

2:39:42So that will be something that we'll want to build out.

2:39:46And then finally, explore alternative retail food models, Zainab Pixler, who's our lead on food systems, who works for Dr. Margolias,

2:39:58is the expert here, and she is looking at any way we can address the problem.

2:40:03This is just step one.

2:40:06And through the chair, I'll add that Zainab would love to be here.

2:40:10So she is one of a few dozen folks in the country who's been accepted to the John Hopkins Bloomberg Fellowship,

2:40:19and so is doing a three-year MPH program, a Master's of Public Health program for her expertise.

2:40:26And so she's got her convening right now, and so she's going to watch it on YouTube later.

2:40:32Hello, Zainab.

2:40:34Shoot.

2:40:36But anyway, so don't hold that against us that she's not here,

2:40:38but this is really incredible leadership from her to think about how we can support local food systems

2:40:44because that matters so much to public health of our residents.

2:40:48So thank you.

2:40:52Obviously, that was a presentation.

2:40:54Thank you all so much for that presentation.

2:40:56Chair Conwell, you want to start us off?

2:41:03So what they do, they give you their P&L, so you look over that, and who looks over their P&L?

2:41:10Both economic development and public health, but development will be leaned on to the financial analysis

2:41:18more so than public health because, you know, we do that all day, we're very experienced there.

2:41:25What is their main, instead of just putting money out there, what is their main issue on the P&L?

2:41:33Is it shrinkage?

2:41:35Yeah, that's a great question.

2:41:37So the grocery store business, of course, is a very, very tight margin business to begin with.

2:41:45Any volatility in the pricing of food, the increase in gas affects freight costs,

2:41:54which then affects what they have to pay aside from just the inventory itself.

2:41:59It's highly, highly sensitive to volatility in any of the items that are on their P&L.

2:42:06Among them, it's people, it's rent, it's security, and then it's product itself.

2:42:13I mean, those are really the major expenses.

2:42:17We are, this is the first time, this is really one of two ways the city, through the chair,

2:42:22can eliminate an expense off of their P&L.

2:42:26There's two expenses the city collects from businesses, it's income taxes and then it's a portion of the property taxes.

2:42:33So there's no way that we could eliminate our portion of the property taxes without affecting

2:42:38other organizations that also collect from the property taxes.

2:42:46But also, if we were to offer a tax abatement, there's no guarantee that the landlord would pass that benefit down to the tenant.

2:42:55So that's something that we could explore, but this is the logical first step that we can take to remove an expense off of P&L.

2:43:03Yeah, they're not going to pass it down, but we could look at other things if they take our advice,

2:43:10like with your P&L, your inventory control, as well as what's hurting them also.

2:43:18These surcharges are afraid on board, like diesel going up, and so it's going to hit them a great deal delivering their food.

2:43:32The other risk is the snap and the wick that is touching them.

2:43:38That snap and the wick will definitely affect their P&L if it's cut back.

2:43:44A lot of stores like Save a Lot, all these, not all these, all the first of the month,

2:43:53that they look at that and they order inventory based on their snap.

2:43:59And that shrinkage, and if people don't receive a snap, then the shrinkage will go up.

2:44:07The inventory, you have more theft in the stores, which will definitely hurt.

2:44:14Have you talked with the county also, to work with them, because their taxes hit their P&L as well, property taxes from the county?

2:44:29We've looked to see what a property tax abatement would look like,

2:44:36how it could benefit the company, and how it would impact among the county and the city, the others.

2:44:44That wasn't part of step one, that wasn't part of this initial rollout, but we did look at it.

2:44:49There are ways that I'm sure we can do it safely, wisely, but that's not anything that we were ready to proceed with, with step one.

2:44:59Property taxes definitely affect businesses, June or July, I'm looking at their P&L.

2:45:07If we can get the property taxes cut back, it would help us as well.

2:45:14Yeah, through the chair, just another point on that.

2:45:17Most grocery stores don't own their own real estate.

2:45:20They're almost always, not always, but for the most part, they're tenants.

2:45:26And then, whether or not a property tax removal or decrease would benefit them,

2:45:33depends on a lot of things, one of them being just the lease itself.

2:45:36Sometimes the tenant is responsible for paying their portion of the property taxes.

2:45:42Sometimes the landlord pays property taxes and then charges just a fixed payment to the tenant.

2:45:49So that is something that still could be a part of this, but it wouldn't benefit every grocer,

2:45:56because of how much that varies between the tenant and landlord lease.

2:46:03This is one thing that every business, no matter what, they have to pay.

2:46:06And this is the first way we can influence the margins of a business.

2:46:13But there will be more that will look to layer on top of this, and very open to any ideas.

2:46:19You know, the guy that owns the, or the female that owns the property, their lease expires,

2:46:26they're going to pass it on to the grocer.

2:46:31And also, what I noticed also in front of the stores that affects them and affects their cost.

2:46:38They got to do quality control in their stores, some of them.

2:46:42You know, when you go in there, there is two things they're fronting, it's like in a business,

2:46:48is how do you do fronting and control shrinkage, you know, with your product?

2:46:54You got to be able to do that.

2:46:56And then also, the cleanliness of a business affects it as well.

2:47:02You know, so people, they don't want to go there if the business is not clean.

2:47:06So, you know, you have to talk with them about that.

2:47:10And then here's the other thing, and we can benefit them in recruitment.

2:47:15We have jobs, our jobs readiness programs, find out how they're training their workers

2:47:23because they can control their training dollars in their P&L.

2:47:27What will happen is that you're going to save money because we can help them recruit,

2:47:34as well as people with disabilities, whatever the case may be, to work for some of these

2:47:40stores.

2:47:41Because your cost of labor, if your attrition is very high, you're going to lose money

2:47:45on your P&L as well, your property law, so we have here that we recruit people that

2:47:52want to work.

2:47:53You see what I'm saying?

2:47:55And then we can train the workers here now to come back when they're training dollars.

2:47:59Because other things, not just money, that we can help them with, and send over workers.

2:48:09Because when they have to recruit, recruitment costs money, although we don't put it on

2:48:13our books to save recruitment.

2:48:15When we have our, when the mayor gives us his transmittal, we don't talk about training,

2:48:22but training costs a lot of money.

2:48:24You hire people, then people end up losing, they end up leaving.

2:48:28That costs companies money, and it goes on their books.

2:48:31The other thing that they want is that our police officers, I mean, we've got to visit

2:48:37them sometime when they call, police don't show up.

2:48:40They don't show up.

2:48:42And if they don't show up, the main thing that you want to protect is your workers,

2:48:48your customers, and your vendors.

2:48:51Vendors must feel safe when they go into a business, and your employees as well.

2:48:56For an example, Save a Lot, over there on 123rd Street, an employee was shot.

2:49:06She was shot, shot right in her stomach.

2:49:09And so if those employees that you recruit, they don't feel safe, then what happens is

2:49:14that your worker's compensation will go up also, and that affects the P&L.

2:49:19So it's a lot of things, I'll sit down with you guys, and we look at some stuff that

2:49:23we can offer.

2:49:25And what they feel is that they don't have a relationship with our police department.

2:49:30They must be able to at least stop in there, or they open an office up where our police

2:49:35department, we have some police officers will sit down and do their paperwork right in

2:49:40the store.

2:49:41But if people, when they case the stores out, if they don't see police, the safety

2:49:45there, then it's going to be some issues.

2:49:49It's going to be some issues, because then they want to see the police there.

2:49:52And what they do sometime in their fronting in stores, I walk in the business, see the

2:49:56whole thing, what's going on.

2:49:58They take their advertisement and cover their windows up, and when they cover their windows

2:50:03up, people think they can't see in there, and when the police pass by, they can't see

2:50:08in the businesses.

2:50:09Then you know what happens, then you got, you open that up for theft as well.

2:50:14People come in there and rob the stores, or whatever the case may be, they got to

2:50:18be there when people pass by a store that they can see on the inside of it, of that

2:50:23store, and that will help them out as well.

2:50:25So it's other things we could do with them, other than we could do the money, but other

2:50:31incentives, especially that recruitment.

2:50:33Yeah.

2:50:34Because recruitment, if we saved them with that, it'd be more than the $6,000.

2:50:38Sure.

2:50:40You know, I can go on and give you that, but wages, shrinkage, target job, tax credits,

2:50:48and some target job, tax credits, I'm going to do these two habits for people with disabilities

2:50:55that they might not know about other resources, meaning that you can hire an employee, and

2:51:00that TJTC will cut back on your cost of labor a little bit.

2:51:06They might not know about that, some of them might not, but we should make sure they hire

2:51:10some people with disabilities as well, and I know I can go on and on, so I yield with

2:51:15that.

2:51:16Thank you.

2:51:17Thank you, Chairman.

2:51:18I'll be next, followed by Councilman Jones, Councilman Shaw, as desired.

2:51:23The TJTC is an awesome tax credit program, one that we should try to replicate here

2:51:26at the city.

2:51:27We should be able to provide a local income tax credit for hiring returning citizens,

2:51:32or folks with disabilities, there's a long list of folks that the state and the feds

2:51:36already give tax credits for, we can just pile up.

2:51:41We should bring that to them, we'll stand up next, I love it.

2:51:46My first question is, first of all, great program, I think it's, I understand it's

2:51:49sort of an exception to how we do business in the city, I don't feel comfortable doing

2:51:54job retention tax credits, broadly speaking.

2:51:57It just feels like giving money away without clear reasons why, but I think groceries

2:52:02are the exception.

2:52:03I think there's probably a few tiny exceptions, certain industries that are just so socially

2:52:07valuable that are going to the fabric of our community, that we require all hands

2:52:11on deck to support, and grocery stores feel like a layup, I'll throw out their daycares

2:52:14too, but that's for a different conversation.

2:52:18As a matter of technicalities, I was trying to understand, so in section three of the

2:52:22ordinance proposed, the tax credit can go up to 15 years, certification can be a two

2:52:27year with a two year renewal, and some of this is just academic because you have to

2:52:30come back before council anyways, but could you tell me, is there a technical reason

2:52:33why it says 15?

2:52:34Yeah, the state of Ohio, and the reason why we're able to offer retention tax credits

2:52:40is because section 718.151 of Ohio Revised Code allows you municipalities to do it.

2:52:52That is for, the max term per state of Ohio Revised Code is 15 years.

2:52:58So the section in the ordinance is referencing the authorization that we have to administer

2:53:06a retention based tax credit for up to 15 years, but then as you said, the ordinance

2:53:12itself sets that clear expectation that this is a two year program, tax credits will not

2:53:18exceed two years unless the council were to amend, approve and then amend this later

2:53:22if we were to ask that, but to your point, retention tax credits is an area that we've

2:53:29never even considered going into, and we're doing it very carefully.

2:53:34Our law department is, we spent some time even making the justification to our law department

2:53:39why we should do this to begin with.

2:53:43There's no plan whatsoever to expand the usage of retention based tax credits, at least

2:53:48not that we have, but as you said, we feel the same exact way.

2:53:52This might be the one exception to that rule.

2:53:56So I hope that answers your question, and then some, but that's the reason why it's

2:54:00supported that way in the ordinance.

2:54:01Do, to the gathering, to the Deputy Director, do you anticipate re-upping the two year

2:54:07tax credit repeatedly?

2:54:10Is your anticipation that this is a program that will be like a one time temporary tap-in

2:54:13or will employers use it regularly?

2:54:16I expect some will use it regularly.

2:54:22If they're able to no longer meet the criteria of demonstrating a financial need, then that's

2:54:31a good thing for us, not for the employer that might want to continually use this.

2:54:37But as long as they can meet that criteria along with adhere to the other requirements

2:54:43of the program, then they would be eligible for repeated use of the benefit.

2:54:47Sure.

2:54:48And, but you're, I guess we're both anticipating that folks probably just get in the program

2:54:52and stick with it because times are tough.

2:54:54Yes.

2:54:55Yeah.

2:54:56At least for grocers, correct.

2:54:57Okay.

2:54:59Understood.

2:55:00The, you had a slide with a hypothetical employer, I think, yeah, this one here.

2:55:05So the annual payroll is grand and then the employer would get six and a quarter grand

2:55:11back.

2:55:12It's, I mean, this is just helpful for me.

2:55:13I actually hadn't done the math before you came, of course, six and a half grand is

2:55:17a lot of money and also not that much compared to a giant grocery store chain.

2:55:20Can you talk about sort of the, the scale and I don't know the, the impact we anticipate

2:55:24this having on the bottom lines.

2:55:26Yeah.

2:55:28Through the chair.

2:55:29It is, uh, this kind of, this kind of shows you, uh, the power that the city has to move

2:55:40the needle on, on a real expense to a business.

2:55:43There is some ability for us, uh, but this is not going to save, uh, grocers across

2:55:51the city.

2:55:52This is step one, but there needs to be steps two through, through 10, right?

2:55:56Um, this, I would say the profile of a, of a grocer with a quarter million in payroll

2:56:02might be, um, uh, you know, five to six employees.

2:56:05Uh, you know, so this is a smaller grocer, uh, with, uh, I guess the smaller the scale

2:56:14of the grocer, the smaller the benefit that this program will offer, but also the smaller

2:56:20the overhead that they would have relative to, to a larger grocer.

2:56:24So I'd say, um, it's at scale with the type of, uh, expenses that, that they may have,

2:56:30uh, to a small grocer that has five or six employees, 13,000 or 12 and a half thousand

2:56:35over two years.

2:56:36Uh, you know, it's, it's a meaningful benefit, but if, if they're, um, you know, very, very,

2:56:43uh, uh, much in the loss column, then this is not going to save them.

2:56:48And I don't want us to, to present this as the silver bullet to the grocery program.

2:56:53And to the deputy director, I'm hearing that this is, this is not exactly a program designed

2:56:58to, you know, with the input of grocery stores carrying the day, it, it's their needs are

2:57:04many and our ability to provide to those needs are very few, but this is the one thing

2:57:07that we have.

2:57:08This is the one thing that we can do right now, um, that will help that will offer relief.

2:57:12Um, but the goal and the intent, uh, and hold us to it, uh, is to come back and, and

2:57:18grow and expand this program.

2:57:19And this gives us a foundation that we can go out and raise money and to show, uh, to

2:57:25show, uh, in our fundraising that we actually have your money is plug and play.

2:57:29It's ready.

2:57:30We have this set up.

2:57:31We know exactly the groceries that we would like to target and this is what your money

2:57:34will help us use.

2:57:35It makes it because my first thing, this was of course, six grand a year isn't going

2:57:37to keep any stores open, but you're right about the raising funds, the bigger picture,

2:57:41of course.

2:57:42And I am looking forward to using every tool we can.

2:57:44Could you go to, can you discuss more about the fund that you just, uh, you brought up

2:57:48where, where did the funds for the fund come from as a program fees?

2:57:52Um, well, no, the, the, the fund, uh, will not come from program fees.

2:57:57We're not charging, uh, much in, in way of program fees, uh, if anything, 250 up to

2:58:04200.

2:58:05Yeah.

2:58:06And even then, I mean, um, it's hard, it's always hard to justify, uh, you know, an application

2:58:11fee, uh, when the grocer is showing us that they have a hardship, right?

2:58:15So we're, we're being very flexible and understanding and sensitive to that.

2:58:20Um, but also, uh, no, the goal is very much so, uh, to, to raise money, to provide, uh,

2:58:28to apply for outside capital, whether it's, it's state federal, uh, government programs,

2:58:33which there are many, and this is where Zainab and Dr. Margolis and his team kind of come

2:58:37in.

2:58:38They know exactly programs that are available that we can go after, um, but also philanthropy

2:58:43local, even national philanthropy that there are, there are programs and opportunities

2:58:48that, uh, that are available that can address the issue.

2:58:52Uh, what we have seen is, is that we need to be as competitive as we can because every

2:58:56community has, has this problem, uh, and for one to stand out over the others that

2:59:01apply something like this already being in place we feel is going to help us out a lot.

2:59:06Interesting.

2:59:07So to the deputy director, there's a lot of opportunities for philanthropy I'm hearing,

2:59:09which is good news.

2:59:10I hadn't realized that, and it's basically a stronger application for us as a city.

2:59:14If we can demonstrate that we're putting in some, we believe so, we have some teeth

2:59:18to our, yeah.

2:59:19We're putting in some skin in the game.

2:59:20That's the phrase skin in the game and that we have the, the, um, uh, we, we have thought

2:59:26through all the logic that will show them that we are targeting stores and areas and,

2:59:32and just across the board that that actually need our help.

2:59:37It's with that.

2:59:38That's the end of my time.

2:59:38Um, consummate Jones chair recognizes.

2:59:43Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2:59:44Um, my first question, Mr. Chairman, um, we're looking at this first, just on the

2:59:53surface of it.

2:59:55It looks like a great program, but you don't know sometimes because the proof is in the

3:00:03pudding and you have to get down there and bake it.

3:00:06So when I looked at what you're, you're saying here, but you showed us in the presentation,

3:00:12is there a model that by what you put this into play, did you, this is something that

3:00:18you put together or is it, or is it a model that's already existing through the chair?

3:00:23Are you, are you referring to the certification, the retention credit or just the whole thing?

3:00:30Um, there are, we, we looked at other communities, uh, uh, our partners at public health did

3:00:36a ton of research, uh, to see how other communities are addressing the problem.

3:00:42Um, every community can only do what their state law allows them to do.

3:00:48And so that's why there's a lot of variation from one state to the other.

3:00:52But to answer your question, yes, we did look to see how the communities tackle a problem.

3:00:57I don't recall seeing a community that exactly, uh, does what we do.

3:01:02Um, they offer tax credits.

3:01:04They offer tax abatements.

3:01:05Those are the two main tools that, that communities have.

3:01:08Um, but we're doing it in a, in a, I'd say, uh, more targeted manner, uh, than, than what

3:01:14I've recalled saying.

3:01:17And so, so is this like you pulled together, um, different parts and pieces, um, and when

3:01:26you put this program in that way, I mean, how did it evolve?

3:01:29I'm just trying to understand, uh, well, how do you put the cake together?

3:01:33Yeah, yeah.

3:01:34It evolved from a lot of discussion with grocers.

3:01:37Uh, and, uh, so we were getting a lot of, of those, uh, you know, a lot of the businesses,

3:01:44uh, coming to development, um, asking for help.

3:01:50Meanwhile, public health was, was doing their research, not only on what the local conditions

3:01:58might, uh, might be that is causing this issue versus the national or global headwinds

3:02:03that we know all grocery stores face.

3:02:06So the two came together, uh, collaboration between public health and development.

3:02:11Um, you know, those collaborations don't happen often, but in this case we were brought

3:02:15together.

3:02:16We had the input from businesses, uh, you know, that were sharing their experiences

3:02:22with development, asking for solutions that we frankly weren't able to give.

3:02:27Meanwhile, public health, uh, had already been doing a lot of research into this program

3:02:31and we were able to marry those two experiences together.

3:02:34Well, Mr. Chairman, um, uh, to David Lucas, you're the director, deputy director of economic

3:02:43development.

3:02:45Well, sure.

3:02:46I, yeah, Joe Rosebord O'Small is my director, uh, in development, but I'm the deputy director

3:02:50of business growth.

3:02:52So first let me start out by saying, I think this is a great idea because we do have a

3:02:58problem in the issue in the city of Cleveland and the question is, how do we go about doing

3:03:03it?

3:03:04Right?

3:03:05How do we, how do we preserve our businesses?

3:03:06You know, it was really stressful to note that, you know, and I hadn't known this until

3:03:11after the Walgreens closed to my neighborhood that there's no East side, um, uh, pharmaceutical

3:03:19places and all the entire side of the East side of the city of Cleveland.

3:03:24We have no Rite Aid.

3:03:27We have no Walgreens.

3:03:29We don't have a CVS.

3:03:32All of the entire East side of the city of Cleveland doesn't have a pharmaceutical facility.

3:03:36And now I was told that maybe we need to get private pharmacies.

3:03:44So, so like we, we really, we really have a situation here and, um, so addressing this

3:03:52issue is important because, uh, before my facility closed down, we went to him and

3:03:57we talked to him, um, and, um, and we didn't even know that they had any idea of closing

3:04:02at the time.

3:04:03So we closed over like a thousand, 200 stores, uh, throughout and these, these big, big

3:04:08retails.

3:04:09So given that being the fact, um, what is your target market right now with this program

3:04:16if it is to be implemented, um, target market through the chair, uh, brochures that are

3:04:25on the verge of closing that we might be able to otherwise prevent, uh, it's as broad

3:04:30as that.

3:04:31So it's as it comes.

3:04:32So whoever comes with an issue, then there'll be the ones that you deal with.

3:04:36Sure.

3:04:37Well, they would have to apply to us, uh, for certification, include all of the things

3:04:41that we would need to do to evaluate their application.

3:04:43Um, we would, we would advertise this program.

3:04:47We would market it and then hopefully they would hear about it and come to us as well.

3:04:50Uh, but yeah, that's, that's, that's the idea.

3:04:53And so the verbiage that we have here then going to the presentation in terms of vetting

3:04:57out who will have the opportunity to be able to be in this program, you put down a certification

3:05:03that would first have to, um, to be certified, is that right?

3:05:07Sure.

3:05:08So the, the, yeah.

3:05:09Okay.

3:05:10So that's right.

3:05:11Yes.

3:05:13Okay.

3:05:14Um, so then the, this criteria, uh, that you have in place here is meet or demonstrate

3:05:18financial need.

3:05:19So how does that look?

3:05:21How would they demonstrate financial need?

3:05:25Why don't we just be a little bit more specific?

3:05:26And then here's the reason why I'm asking that question just to make it easy.

3:05:31Um, because I don't want you to be guessing in the box here.

3:05:35Sure.

3:05:36So, um, uh, a business, uh, wants to be in a storefront, uh, they have to just pretty

3:05:44much share their entire life in existence of how much they make, what they bring in

3:05:48the home yards, uh, to, uh, the person who's over the Plaza.

3:05:54So the Plaza has an entire financial breakdown.

3:05:56Will we be asking for an entire financial breakdown in that kind of way, or have we

3:06:01set those standards or we still, we're still processing.

3:06:05So there's, there's a through the chair.

3:06:07Um, there's, there's not just one way that we are enabling them to demonstrate financial

3:06:15need, but there's one way that I anticipate most of them using, which is their profitability.

3:06:21So if that is the way that they choose to, to show their financial need for this to

3:06:26us, then they would submit two, maybe three years of financial statements for us to ship

3:06:33for us to see the trend, right?

3:06:35It's not just looking at one year.

3:06:38The trend is really what shows them that the financial need is there.

3:06:41We want to intervene before they're, they're, um, they're showing losses if we can.

3:06:47Um, so to answer your question, if they choose to go with profitability as, as the mechanism

3:06:54for showing that I would require them to submit two, maybe three years worth of financial

3:07:00statements to see what that trend looks like.

3:07:02They may want to make an argument that's different than that.

3:07:04We're open to it.

3:07:06That would impact what they would have to, to, to provide.

3:07:09I anticipate almost all of them show using the profitability as their financial need.

3:07:15So, so what if they, they're not accepting snap and wick.

3:07:20What if, what if they don't fit some of this, this that you do have here, but they're still

3:07:25in need and they still provide a service and there's still a need for that service.

3:07:29Yeah.

3:07:30I can't speak for public health, but through, through the chair, so they would score lower

3:07:35on the rubric and they would be less likely to make those, those top scoring retailers

3:07:42that we bring back to you for, for the credit.

3:07:44And so when we do come back for that legislation, we'll walk through the score on each of those

3:07:49criteria to.

3:07:50No, I asked that question because, you know, sometimes some people just don't offer certain

3:07:55things, but there's still a valuable asset to the community.

3:07:58Sure.

3:07:59So then do you have that space where they're showing that they have this loss, but you

3:08:04know, they are successful in, in what they have been doing, but they, for whatever reason

3:08:08hit some snag, but then now they don't qualify because just because they don't maybe because

3:08:16they're not donating the excess edible food to local food pantries for meal programs or

3:08:22they're, they're, they're receiving their products outside the state of Ohio.

3:08:28Yeah.

3:08:30And those things right there is something that we have to really think about in terms

3:08:33of being fair.

3:08:35If we have a program, that program needs to be fair.

3:08:37The whole proposition of you being here right now, Mr. Chairman, to Mr. Lucas is to preserve

3:08:45the businesses we have in our, in our corporation territory.

3:08:49And so I would hope that we could look at this, maybe not saying that it shouldn't

3:08:54be there, but maybe like, Mr. Chairman, to the director, you said that maybe they'll

3:08:58score a little bit lower.

3:09:00But I just think that we tread carefully here because the whole thought, at least in my

3:09:06mind, at least would be in my mind, at least why we're here is because we're losing business.

3:09:12And and then hopefully we can try to retain that business in our city.

3:09:16You got it.

3:09:18Is that correct?

3:09:20Yeah.

3:09:21So, so I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, we, we take a closer look at this.

3:09:24Now I'm not against this piece of legislation.

3:09:27I think it's brilliant.

3:09:28And I think that it's brilliant in a number of ways.

3:09:30I see a number of possibilities here.

3:09:33The next question, Mr. Chairman, is how we go out and apply for outside funds.

3:09:37You know, what does that model look like?

3:09:40You know, and, you know, how, how, how, what does that actually look like fundamentally?

3:09:47Because and I'll, I'll share this, Mr. Chairman, because, you know, there was a time that

3:09:51this council did not touch the general fund and they didn't touch the general fund, Mr.

3:09:58Chairman.

3:09:59And Mr. Chairman, to, you know, well, Sharon Dumison and the previous administration,

3:10:03you couldn't touch general funds like the holy golden cow.

3:10:07You couldn't even come and scratch that cow.

3:10:09You couldn't come and rub the cow.

3:10:11The cow was kept behind locked doors and they was 25, 40 foot doors that were thick.

3:10:19And now it seems like we're just going into the penny bank at any time.

3:10:23I didn't sit here and watch this go into the penny bank talking about legal aid and

3:10:28giving them 550,000 additional resources right out of our general fund where there's

3:10:33going to come a time, Mr. Chairman, where we're going to have to be fiscally astute

3:10:36with our resources.

3:10:37And it don't seem like that is the case here.

3:10:40So my question is, are we going to go into the general fund or are we looking to tap

3:10:45the general fund for this program?

3:10:47And Mr. Jones, this is your time is up, so we're happy to put you in at the end if you'd

3:10:50like to go back.

3:10:51I don't want to go back.

3:10:52Okay.

3:10:53I just want to be quick answer.

3:10:54Sure.

3:10:55Through the chair, that is not part of our request is to use the general fund to start

3:10:59or seed or build a fund that would be attached to the certification.

3:11:05And then, Mr. Chairman, this question is to our distinguished McNair.

3:11:09I love that name.

3:11:13I can see this man throwing the ball down the field, catching it in zone.

3:11:20So can you can you help us kind of Mr. Chairman to Mr. McNair understand and I know that funds

3:11:28were rated previously.

3:11:31How do we get those coffers back up?

3:11:33Is there a plan for that?

3:11:39So through the chair to Councilman Jones, I think, yes, one, I want to take a brief

3:11:45moment just to say how much I appreciate Zainab Pixler and all the work that she did advancing

3:11:50this.

3:11:51And David has been amazing as we kind of marry these two sides of things, but the importance

3:11:55of public health determining what makes a quality grocer and who we want to invest

3:11:59in.

3:12:00And I think more to your question, you know, one of the things that is challenging for

3:12:05us here, you know, the Department of Development, by and large, tries to take a relatively

3:12:10small amount of capital and make investments that grow our general fund, right?

3:12:15That is the end of the day.

3:12:16You guys allocate, I believe, three million dollars traditionally annually that comes

3:12:21in and we have to be very judicious about how we do this.

3:12:25It is, I think, fair to say unheard of that we take the step that we are taking now where

3:12:31we actually are going to take away a little bit from the general fund through a credit

3:12:37to help this, but we are doing that because grocery is in crisis, right?

3:12:41And urban grocers in particular are disproportionately at risk and targeted because of things like

3:12:51cuts to SNAP and other things to take away resources from so many of our residents.

3:12:56And so we know that if we do not do something here, we are about to start losing a multitude

3:13:01of grocers across the city.

3:13:03And that is going to come with its own issues, right?

3:13:05Like in this case, we are actually, you know, abating some level of the income tax it comes

3:13:11in, but there are sales taxes that are coming in based on, right, like the transactions

3:13:16that are taking place in there.

3:13:18Property tax is not just in the building that is there today that houses a grocer,

3:13:23but also of the homes and everything that surround those property are higher when there

3:13:27is an active grocer in there because I think as well stated, these are businesses that

3:13:31do a social good, right?

3:13:33Like food security is such an important part of the stabilization of our neighborhoods.

3:13:38And so, you know, these businesses start to close.

3:13:40We could end up with less money than we have today, you know, so that doesn't directly

3:13:46answer your question.

3:13:47We are spending time every single day trying to figure out how can we recapitalize a department

3:13:53because honestly, you know, I think that in a different world, I know people, there

3:13:59are many people that don't like tax incentives, right?

3:14:02Whether it's an income tax incentive or a property tax abatement or tax increment financing,

3:14:08we utilize those tools oftentimes because we don't have cash to invest in these businesses,

3:14:14right?

3:14:15If we were sitting on piles of cash, we could say grocery is a critical business for our

3:14:20community.

3:14:21We know that they have to pay for security and these other things.

3:14:24And if you're going to become a quality grocer, then we will just be able to hand out cash

3:14:27to offset those things.

3:14:29We don't have that.

3:14:31And a lot of time looking at how do we recapitalize a department?

3:14:37It's not an easy thing, right?

3:14:40You know, again, I think we're trying to get creative in ways that we can utilize both

3:14:46the resources that we have and appropriate use of tax incentives that can lead to longer

3:14:52term growth of the city and therefore increase those tax bases, right?

3:14:58And you're seeing that whether it is things like the IX Center where we're trying to bring

3:15:01in a large scale employer that will, again, have a net positive impact in the long term

3:15:06or things that we're looking at doing in the housing innovation district in the Eastside

3:15:11neighborhoods that are currently the value of that geography is going down every year.

3:15:16So we're trying to make the types of investments have more people moving back into our city

3:15:20because and I'll close with this, like we're talking about how we solve a grocery problem

3:15:26now.

3:15:28What the real problem is you actually want to solve the grocery problem.

3:15:31We're losing stores all over the city, right?

3:15:33We need more people living in the city of Cleveland.

3:15:36We need density.

3:15:37We need people of higher incomes living in the city of Cleveland, right?

3:15:42Because that is what grocery stores are looking for.

3:15:45That is what pharmacies are looking for, right?

3:15:48Like we need as we've gone from a million residents to 365,000 residents and mostly

3:15:55it's been the people with disposable income that have moved out.

3:15:59That is why we have roughly the same number of people in poverty as we did 40 or 50 years

3:16:03ago, but our poverty rate has gone like this, right?

3:16:07And so, you know, again, we are trying to make investments with the limited capital

3:16:12that we have that bring in more residents, that bring in more businesses and jobs, both

3:16:18of which have a rising effect in the longer term on the general revenues of the city,

3:16:24which then hopefully allows us to allocate more money to do that work.

3:16:28Sorry, that was a really long answer.

3:16:31>> Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, if I had my way, and I don't, I'm just one of 15,

3:16:40I would make sure that your department was fully funded in every possible way because

3:16:46I realized that the most important thing is economic development to the city of Cleveland

3:16:50to bring in tax resources, and as well as to preserve our community and our businesses.

3:17:00In conclusion, the concern I have is that other departments and other programs are tapping

3:17:09into the general fund and using the general fund dollars for other uses where if that

3:17:16$550,000, if I had a choice sitting here at the table, I would give it to you because

3:17:22I know that you're going to help us with being able to assist us bring in hopefully

3:17:27sustain our existing businesses and hopefully work with bringing new businesses into the

3:17:32city of Cleveland, which overall helps to grow our local economy.

3:17:37But in conclusion, I just wanted to say that that's my little bit of unreadiness, Mr. Chairman,

3:17:43and it's not specifically saying I'm against this program at all whatsoever.

3:17:47It's only saying that we are consistently dipping into the general fund.

3:17:52We're spending it like we're going crazy, like we're kids in a candy cookie jar, going

3:17:57in the store and buying whatever we want to with contractor bags and unloading the shelves.

3:18:04At some point, there's going to be a financial reckoning.

3:18:09So I just want to caution us as I have never seen this level of spending in all the time

3:18:17I've been on Cleveland City Council.

3:18:19I have never seen anything quite like this.

3:18:21This is unprecedented in terms of our spending, and I'm concerned about it, and that's the

3:18:27reason why I'm pumping the breaks of caution.

3:18:30And this is another issue is to our new deputy director.

3:18:34I think this is a great program.

3:18:35I think that we should, in conclusion, have an ideal of who's in trouble and who's not.

3:18:42And I don't know how we do that in terms of taking the assessment, but I am concerned

3:18:46about us being able to go outside and thank you, Mr. Chairman, for all that great time

3:18:50you gave me.

3:18:51We appreciate you.

3:18:52Of course.

3:18:53And I'm yielding the floor back to you.

3:18:56Thank you, Mr. Jones.

3:18:57Nope.

3:18:58All important points.

3:18:59Next up, Councilman Shaw.

3:19:00The chair yields to you.

3:19:01I think the chair -- I'm so sorry.

3:19:06Yeah, definitely.

3:19:07Who's champion this year?

3:19:09Is that you, Director?

3:19:11Through the chair, as Deputy Director pointed out, this is truly a joint effort between

3:19:19our two departments.

3:19:21So we bring the public health perspective on which retailers are contributing most

3:19:26in terms of public health to our communities, and then the Department of Development brings

3:19:32the expertise on the finances.

3:19:34Tom?

3:19:37To the chair, I just want to say, I think, as this came together, that seemed like all

3:19:42of us to really go to that separation of church and state, so to speak, right, that you have

3:19:48the Department of Public Health that I think can do the job of evaluating the right type

3:19:54of grocer/retailer that should be eligible for these things.

3:19:59So it is not just a development program looking to incentivize whoever, right?

3:20:04It was a good delineation of power.

3:20:07You know, you were narrating very good, Tom, but with the -- what's that, drug stores?

3:20:16Mm-hmm.

3:20:17There's a trend that's going on.

3:20:19People are ordering their drugs through Amazon, and when I knew that was coming up.

3:20:25So instead of having a big building, because it costs money to keep those buildings open,

3:20:32you have to pay capital improvements, so you just do, like, just in time.

3:20:40You deliver the medication to the -- to your customers.

3:20:44You know, you see what I'm saying.

3:20:46So you do that.

3:20:47So that's one of the reasons the drug stores, they close out, because then you don't have

3:20:51to pay for all that labor, and you can shoot it straight through that way, you know?

3:20:57Although with the grocery stores, if they close and drug stores keep closing, it also

3:21:01affects your comps.

3:21:04When your comps are affected, then your property value will go down, and we'll have even less

3:21:10density in the -- in the city of Cleveland, which hurt us in the long run with our property

3:21:16taxes.

3:21:17Because, you know, payroll dollars to tax, you know, so I understand what you were narrating,

3:21:22but let me say this to both of the Davids, and we talk all the time.

3:21:26I want to be in that meeting with you guys, not to meddle, but there's other things we

3:21:34can offer.

3:21:35Let me look at this.

3:21:36This really won't affect their P&L too much of helping, but we could, as I said earlier,

3:21:43we could -- with their labor dollars, we could help them recruit and send people to

3:21:49them, and it costs money to recruit for the grocery stores or whatever the case may be.

3:21:57And then you could also talk with the police department to figure out a way to have the

3:22:04police go through the store or stop by some of the stores to do their reports.

3:22:10And also, like we did with the tobacco law through the chair, David, look at the advertisements

3:22:17in front of their stores, because that will -- we can clean -- clear that out and cut

3:22:23down on shrinkage and theft, because that shrinkage is hurting them, afraid on board

3:22:28is hurting them right now, and they're controlling cost of labor.

3:22:33Those are the three things that's kicking them right in their teeth, and we could talk

3:22:36with them about it, and whatever resources we have to help them, it doesn't have to

3:22:41always be dollars, it could be that, and we could tell them to keep in front of their

3:22:46stores clean, you know, and that's where I'm at.

3:22:50Thank you.

3:22:53Excellent.

3:22:54Councilman Shaw.

3:22:55Thank you.

3:22:56Thank you for the team, for the work, and the time to meet earlier, I have already,

3:23:01you know, expressed some of my reservations and hesitations.

3:23:04I wanted to kind of walk through some more of the things I was able to look into since

3:23:11our discussion and just put some things on the record.

3:23:14So through the chair, the team, I wanted to understand how much money are we collecting

3:23:20right now through income tax on grocery stores?

3:23:32Through the chair, I think the input that we received from the finance department,

3:23:42there was an estimate, I don't feel, I would say the minimum was $2 million, if I recall

3:23:51correctly, but really, that was more of the floor than, you know, the ceiling.

3:24:01It's hard, honestly, for finance to give us that information because they don't categorize

3:24:07every business by their primary industry.

3:24:10So they were kind of making an assumption based on, you know, a list of what was obvious

3:24:17to them were grocers, sorry, I can't give you like a very exact answer, I want to give

3:24:22you something, but I want to hedge it with the fact that like, it's very difficult for

3:24:26finance to quantify just grocers and what that revenue is.

3:24:30At minimum, it's $2 million, it's probably a lot more than that, but that's all that

3:24:34they were able to tell us at this point.

3:24:36That's marginally helpful.

3:24:38Sorry.

3:24:39That's not your fault, I understand some of the challenges and the back end that might

3:24:45pose to come up with that number.

3:24:46But I think it's important, whether it's to cross reference the data that we already

3:24:50have from our food systems coordination work on identifying which places already sell groceries,

3:24:56combining that with the data from finance to understand what are we actually collecting

3:24:59and what are the potential hits, right?

3:25:02So I do think we should understand that before we pass this piece and would encourage us

3:25:07to hold it until then.

3:25:08I also wanted to understand, like, what's the future plan here?

3:25:12I understand this is, I think as you said, yourself, Deputy Director Lucas, not a silver

3:25:20bullet.

3:25:21Is this a Band-Aid?

3:25:22Is this a, where are we moving towards, because I think as I expressed before, even having

3:25:28some sort of idea or commitment from the administration on the future of how to address

3:25:33food access would help me vote for this or agree with this direction.

3:25:41But until I see that, it's hard for me to not feel like this is a PR-driven Band-Aid

3:25:46solution where, you know, we had a high-profile grocery store closure.

3:25:49But as you all know, we've had other neighborhoods going through these closures for years.

3:25:54So why now?

3:25:55And what's the plan?

3:25:56Yeah, I can try.

3:25:59So, yeah, through the chair, thank you.

3:26:01Yeah, I will share your frustration with the outrage towards the Heinen's downtown

3:26:07closure when we know other grocery stores have been closing along this time, too.

3:26:11I would say that, like, looking back, though, I mean, every time a grocery store has closed,

3:26:16there's been outrage.

3:26:17I think just maybe the downtown folks are, like, more connected to social media, and

3:26:21so that's made more, but the teams have been working on this for a long time.

3:26:25I think, you know, this is a tool that we have at the city level.

3:26:30I think we need our state to help.

3:26:32I think we need federal government to help and see grocery stores as the social need

3:26:38that we all see.

3:26:39I mean, you know, the amount of money that subsidizes healthcare in the United States

3:26:45is basically, like, one of every $5 spent, right?

3:26:49And there isn't an equivalent of federal or state subsidies to support grocery stores.

3:26:55And so I think just as Deputy Director said, like, we need to put some of our skin in

3:27:00the game.

3:27:01It's not that much money, but we're hopeful that we're going to show the way for other

3:27:05communities to do the same that include our community within it.

3:27:09>> Chair, Councilman, I wouldn't describe this as something that is PR driven.

3:27:18I don't know where it fits between Band-Aid.

3:27:21It's certainly not a silver bullet, right?

3:27:24But as Mr. Lucas stated, right, like, some of this was based on folks that have been

3:27:31approaching us, right?

3:27:32Like, you're right.

3:27:33There has been groceries have been closing out through the city for some time, and as

3:27:38I mentioned, like, groceries in a state of crisis, and that gets well beyond the city,

3:27:42right?

3:27:43There are state-level reasons for that.

3:27:45There are federal-level reasons for that.

3:27:47I think we all understand those challenges, right?

3:27:52But like, I do think that we feel that if we set a high enough bar that we're talking

3:27:58about the good folks that are coming in, that this can be stabilizing for some of

3:28:03those more major grocers that are remaining in the city of Cleveland.

3:28:08If we didn't feel that this was something that could help them keep stores open that

3:28:12otherwise might close, I don't think this is a step that we would be taking.

3:28:17You know, so I did have something very related I wanted to state with that.

3:28:24But again, that said, this was brought to us, I mean, largely because we do have grocers

3:28:29in the city that are long-time, oh, and part of this, Heinen's was losing downtown over

3:28:35a million dollars a year.

3:28:36That was not a sustainable business.

3:28:37There are a lot of reasons for that.

3:28:40I'm grateful to the Heinen's family for making a go of that facility.

3:28:45But I don't think if we pass this, this wasn't going to save the downtown Heinen's, right?

3:28:49I think some of our core neighborhood grocers throughout the city, this can save.

3:28:53Yeah, I appreciate that.

3:28:57So yeah, my worry is still that the framework I think we're approaching right is how do

3:29:04we help grocery stores stay open?

3:29:07And that's the problem we're trying to solve.

3:29:09And I guess from my perspective, the problem here is food access.

3:29:13And I don't think it gets us towards addressing the 59% of Cleveland residents that live in

3:29:19a food desert right now, because I also looked at the other programs, other comparable city

3:29:24programs that you guys looked at, almost every single one combines it with an incentive

3:29:31for new businesses, new grocery stores to open, is not there in this one.

3:29:36It's not necessarily providing any incentives, zoning risk zoning or tax incentives for new

3:29:42grocery stores to open in these food deserts.

3:29:44So walk me through some of why not and how are we once again, that's my, my fear is

3:29:53that we are going to do this and then we're not going to get any more further along.

3:30:00So go.

3:30:01Yeah, through the chair.

3:30:02Thanks.

3:30:03Thanks for that.

3:30:04That prompt.

3:30:05I think that it's not just about grocery stores, not closing, this is about the good ones.

3:30:12And there is a distinction.

3:30:13And so when, you know, Zainab joined our team as local food system specialists and

3:30:17a lot of folks, you know, equated her role to, Oh, you're working on food insecurity.

3:30:22And if she helped folks understand and helped me understand, like, no, it's not about just

3:30:26food access.

3:30:27It's that local food systems are important on their own.

3:30:32So it's not, we're not giving out, it's not, doesn't give out free food, but it is a job

3:30:35creator.

3:30:36It's a community hub.

3:30:37It's, you know, these are union jobs that, that, that, you know, are the folks who, who

3:30:42work here.

3:30:43It's about creating a neighborhood hub, a destination.

3:30:47And so there's so much more than food that a grocery store offers because if the solution

3:30:52was just food, then it would be about more greater Cleveland food bank destinations,

3:30:58which are important and they add their own separate thing.

3:31:00But I think local food systems, especially, uh, the grocers that we're trying to incentivize

3:31:05here, offer their own set of benefits that go to the health and quality of life of the

3:31:09community.

3:31:11I hear that.

3:31:12And I, for me, and this is, I think we're, you know, we're, our perspectives do diverge

3:31:16where if we're trying to address this need, why isn't the city stepping up to do run

3:31:23a grocery store on our own?

3:31:25I mean, I, in our discussion, a big point, right, was why is the East side market not

3:31:29something that we're using as a pilot to figure this out?

3:31:32Because as you indicated, there are federal and state level national level economic factors

3:31:37that is causing grocery stores to go out of business that this isn't going to help

3:31:42them.

3:31:43I mean, next year, even in a couple months, if we resume the strikes on Iran and fuel

3:31:47prices go further up, you're going to see a wave of closure.

3:31:49This does nothing to do that.

3:31:51But we know when you buy things at scale, things are cheaper.

3:31:54So if we're trying to help those smaller grocery stores out, why aren't we leveraging

3:31:57some more of these resources where we can say, Hey, why don't we procure more of these

3:32:01things through the West side market nonprofit, start providing it for the East side market,

3:32:06whatever combinations it might be.

3:32:07But it's more driven from the city doing things rather than waiting or providing a

3:32:11subsidy and hoping that the businesses will solve it through the chair.

3:32:15I just don't, you know, we've discussed this.

3:32:19I just, I'm concerned we're not there yet as a city to be able to operate a grocery

3:32:25store well enough, you know, right now when we're, we're just about to be able to do

3:32:33what is it, ACH, automatic electronic payments, you know, right now we're still sending checks

3:32:38and there are examples like that, that I'm just worried we're not, we haven't improved

3:32:43our infrastructure enough to be able to run something like a grocery store well enough

3:32:46for our residents.

3:32:48And so I would say from a personal perspective, you know, I don't think that is off the table

3:32:53through doing this, but I do think that supporting local independent grocery stores is something

3:32:59that we need to do also.

3:33:03Yeah.

3:33:05I have nothing to supplement Dr. Magoli's point on the city run grocers, but I did

3:33:10want to address the earlier comment you made about, about business attraction, because

3:33:19as we say, you know, for our future of the program slide here, we want the, we want

3:33:25to have some, some funding to allow us to be more aggressive with attraction.

3:33:32And that is certainly part of the landscape of this fund or this program.

3:33:38We have tools for business attraction currently.

3:33:42We certainly want better tools specific to attracting grocers, but we have the ability

3:33:46to offer incentives, whether it's tax credits or loan fund or loan funding or whatever

3:33:54it is, our pro our current programs allow for us to support a business that is making

3:33:59a new investment in the city or growing jobs in the city.

3:34:02What, no matter what that business is, what industry they're in, we have absolutely nothing

3:34:07to offer a business that is on the verge of closing down, which is what this gives

3:34:13us.

3:34:14It gives us something.

3:34:15It doesn't give us, there are still limits to what benefit this would bring, but this

3:34:21is at least something that we can put in our, in our toolbox to support a business and

3:34:27even specifically a grocer that might have a concern that will lead to them closing.

3:34:34So I just wanted to draw that distinction.

3:34:36We want more, more tools to attract grocers, but we currently have some, we have absolutely

3:34:42nothing to retain grocers.

3:34:43So through the chair.

3:34:45Mike, how much more time do I have?

3:34:49I'll just wrap up and I'll go back on if I have more, but I, yeah, I have deep reservations.

3:34:55My other big fear is that this is opening a Pandora's box.

3:34:59How long before every other business in town is going to come to us, line up and say,

3:35:03Hey, essentially hold a gun to our head and say, we're going to be moving people out

3:35:07of the city unless we get some kind of a tax credit like this.

3:35:10I understand the department is saying we're not looking, we're not interested in that,

3:35:14but I mean, I'm looking at one of the models, right?

3:35:16I posed was next year, whatever the AI bubble crashes, whatever over leveraged banks, a

3:35:22PNC, someone comes to us as we're going to move these 400 jobs out of the city unless

3:35:27we get a tax credit to keep them here.

3:35:31It's a tough call.

3:35:32And I'm not saying that supposition, right?

3:35:34So I think this is going to open a Pandora's box.

3:35:37That's a really big reservation for me.

3:35:40And I hear you director about we have limited ways, right?

3:35:43We can provide money, but we also have a way to raise money.

3:35:46We could tax bad food retailers.

3:35:49If good food retailers are a thing, I'm emerging bad food retailers are a thing providing

3:35:55a tax and then saying, Hey, you get a break as long as you're doing these things.

3:35:59There are alternatives to raise revenue that I don't think we're really looking at right

3:36:03now.

3:36:04And so I think this is creating a race to the bottom of the barrel because we keep providing

3:36:10more and more, you know, abatements and incentives to not collect taxes so that we can turn

3:36:15around and provide services to our residents such as grocery store.

3:36:19And that's going to be the way I'm going to keep pushing us to move towards.

3:36:24Like I said, I appreciate the team's work behind this.

3:36:28But I, like I said, combined with the fact that it's going to open Pandora's box.

3:36:32We don't have a way that combines like other cities have successful programs that have

3:36:37been sent, combine this incentive with new program, new grocery stores and just further

3:36:43subsidizing businesses instead of solving the underlying issue.

3:36:46So very, very briefly, Chief, through the chair, I appreciate all of that.

3:36:55I think the one thing I would say is it relates to Pandora's box.

3:36:58I think a good reminder via state law, the only body that can approve any of those type

3:37:03of credits is the body of counsel, right?

3:37:07So again, we take very seriously even close all of this, right?

3:37:12But this is a, it would have to be alignment of all parties.

3:37:16>> Thank you. >> You're absolutely right.

3:37:20It takes two to pass every single one of these, and the council has happily gone along with them.

3:37:25>> Thank you, Councilman Shaw, and it's an important perspective.

3:37:27The Councilman Jones, one very last final question.

3:37:31And then, Councilman Jones first, very briefly.

3:37:38>> I support the program, and I do acknowledge from my colleague,

3:37:44Tommy Shaw in terms of the ask may be coming from others.

3:37:48What I would suggest is ways it means where we can start generating revenues, and

3:37:55I don't know if there's, I have some thoughts I'd share off the table later on revenue generation.

3:38:02Because that's going to be critical, me and House Jones sitting here at the corner.

3:38:08We agree that we have an issue with having the pharmaceutical businesses,

3:38:13like Councilman Tommy Shaw stated eloquently, that this is a race then to other industries.

3:38:20And so, certainly would love to sit down and talk to you about the possibility of bringing Mr. Chairman to Deputy Lucas.

3:38:28Some other possibilities and ideals and banter around, and I appreciate the presentation you guys have put together here today to try to resolve an issue.

3:38:36That has absolutely devastated the African American communities and urban communities throughout the entire nation.

3:38:43So with that being said, Mr. Chairman, I have no unreadiness.

3:38:46>> Thank you.

3:38:47>> Thank you, Mr. Jones.

3:38:48Councilman House Jones.

3:38:51>> Yes, through the Chair to the team here, thank you for your time.

3:38:57I had a question generally following along with Councilman Shaw's thoughts

3:39:05regarding what exploration of earning more income

3:39:13as the department looked at to be able to support local grocery stores.

3:39:29>> Through the Chair, I apologize, Councilwoman House Jones.

3:39:31I didn't hear the end of that question, but I heard the, what exploration.

3:39:35>> No, I'm saying what, yeah, what exploration have you all looked at to generate more income to support grocery stores?

3:39:52>> There you go.

3:39:55As far as generating more revenue to support grocery stores specifically, I think the best mechanism would be the fund

3:40:02that would live inside of the certification program that we will begin targeting with grant applications immediately after the passage of this program.

3:40:13That's the best way that I have to answer your question right now, though.

3:40:17>> So we have not, through the Chair to the team here, so just clarification.

3:40:22So we have not explored other ways to generate income to just support.

3:40:29This was basically the only one that you've looked at.

3:40:36>> So through the Chair to Councilman House Jones, I will say broadly speaking,

3:40:42the Department of Development, longer term, right, has kind of dealt with the resources that are allocated.

3:40:50It has not traditionally been a department that is looking at grant funding for a variety of things.

3:40:57Other than, over the course of time, I know that there have been times that they've gone after a variety of federal pools of dollars that are brought in for kind of program specific work.

3:41:07But it's not an entity that typically comes up with ideas for new taxes or things of that.

3:41:14>> That's the point.

3:41:14So I will, again, there is a movement that has happened around this country where people are starting to say what typical elected administrations and council members doing.

3:41:27The people are beginning to put forth real proposals because the real increase,

3:41:34like even right now in this current upcoming budget, there are two tax levies,

3:41:42if I'm not mistaken, two property tax levies that people are contending with.

3:41:47Everything right now is connected to people's property taxes.

3:41:53This is not sustainable.

3:41:56It's not sustainable.

3:41:57And if we as a body do not come up with more equitable approaches for people to pay their fair share,

3:42:06the growing economic gap between the haves and the have nots are only going to continue to happen, right?

3:42:12And I know we're talking about here between 500 to a million dollars.

3:42:17Where does it all come from?

3:42:18What less are we going to have?

3:42:20And that's a real, it's just a thing, right?

3:42:23We talked about a thing, again, just in the cleanliness of our city.

3:42:29I have proposed the excess litter fee certification, I'll put it like that.

3:42:37Where, again, because some parts of our neighborhood are so

3:42:43filled with litter and debris, and we don't have litter people to pick it up outside of people that might be in a special improvement district.

3:42:53But most of these communities, our neighborhoods that are very filled with litter and

3:42:58debris won't ever get a special improvement district, right?

3:43:02And so the elf could be something that we can get people, and really it really is the people who are throwing trash out the windows, throwing things.

3:43:11They just got to pay for it, because I'm at this point now where we have to get people more responsible.

3:43:18Since people can't do it of general goodwill, then you have to pay for it, right?

3:43:25So that we can get what we need to, and have the conditions that people deserve, and what people want, right?

3:43:33That's a significant complaint that comes into my office,

3:43:38just as about the uncleanness of our streets, right?

3:43:43And so we have to be able, and people, no one likes to have to pay more, but something has to give.

3:43:51This press on property owners is just too much, and we as a city have to be able to provide, yes, it's going to be a tax, that's just it.

3:44:01It's either going to come from people's pockets or people's pockets, that's it.

3:44:05Ain't no more new money, these are two pathways.

3:44:09And I think people's pockets are definitely starting to get that tipping point where it's not going to be.

3:44:16But some of our businesses, they're just not paying their fair share.

3:44:22So I don't know when it comes to this legislation now, because again, what is going to how many, I'll ask you this question.

3:44:36As we're looking for a tax credit as it relates to grocery stores in the city of Cleveland,

3:44:44not the city of Cleveland, in the state of Ohio, how many other tax credits are local municipalities offer to give to different industries?

3:44:56>> Good chair, Councilwoman House-Jones, municipalities are authorized to offer tax credits.

3:45:06We're given a lot of autonomy to decide who we want to offer tax credits to.

3:45:11Whether it's to incentivize growth or to encourage retention.

3:45:17How we administer those two different efforts is entirely up to administration and council to come to agreement.

3:45:23>> Right. And do we know, is this one of the,

3:45:28is how many tax credits currently does the city of Cleveland offer to corporations or businesses?

3:45:35Or where are we in offering our tax credits to businesses?

3:45:39>> Through the chair, we currently can offer an income tax credit to businesses that are hiring 50 or more new employees.

3:45:49>> I mean, do we have any of those in place right now?

3:45:54>> Through the chair, at least two.

3:45:56>> At least two?

3:45:57>> Yes, ma'am.

3:45:58>> Okay, I would like to see, because this conversation just ignited an interest of mine to understand currently what are the tax credits that we currently have.

3:46:16And in the state of Ohio, how many different types of tax credits that are initiated by municipality, what do they look like?

3:46:28Because I think that would begin to give us an idea of the potential other tax credits the city may be confronted with if this legislation moves forward, right?

3:46:41Thank you.

3:46:44>> Thank you, Councilman House-Jones.

3:46:47Any other comments from my colleagues?

3:46:50Great, I am going to call this for a vote now, is that right, Mr. Shaw?

3:46:58>> Just one quick thing, I think I want to just make sure, as of right now,

3:47:02this legislation does not provide a source of funding for the good food retail fund.

3:47:07We don't have any source of funding identified, correct?

3:47:10We're just hoping to apply for grants.

3:47:12Hopefully philanthropy, maybe whatever else, I just want to make sure my understanding is right.

3:47:18>> Through the chair, that's correct.

3:47:19We're pointing out that we are not stopping with this current setup of the good food certification program.

3:47:28That is absolutely in the plans, and please hold us accountable to our ability to bring in outside funding.

3:47:35>> And through the chair, if this were to pass, I believe it still has DPS committee and finance committee on there.

3:47:44But also, even after all of that, we're not spending any money until we come back to this body to say,

3:47:51hey, here are the ones that we think are the good food retailers, do you agree, yes or no?

3:47:59>> Or receiving any money, is that right?

3:48:00Because there's no authorization to accept grants.

3:48:02Any of that stuff also has to come back before us.

3:48:09On my mind, I think it is a reasonable request to figure out how much of our income tax revenue is coming from grocery retailers.

3:48:15As well as having a better understanding of the tax credit ecosystem.

3:48:19A hard question, but a real one.

3:48:21So if there's any way to get this information or at least a framework before finance, I mean, that seems like a reasonable request.

3:48:26>> DPS might be tomorrow.

3:48:28>> DPS is happening.

3:48:31>> I don't know if this is on tomorrow, so just, tomorrow felt aggressive.

3:48:36Anyway, we'll follow up, absolutely.

3:48:37>> I mean, it seems like just we should have a good understanding where, yeah, how deep we're dipping.

3:48:42>> Met with the brochures, yeah, David.

3:48:49When is the next meeting?

3:48:53Through the chair.

3:48:54>> Through the chair, do you mean Dave's supermarket?

3:48:56Or, the David's, sorry.

3:48:59>> Well, you know what, this is what I do know, Dave's.

3:49:03If this Snap is, you're going to hear a huge sucking sound over there, and they're going, they'll definitely need a lot of help, Snap.

3:49:13>> Sure.

3:49:14>> Yeah, we've met with many, through the chair, we've met with many, many grocers as part of our bringing in feedback to help us understand the problem and then address it.

3:49:27So almost all of them are citing the cuts in the Snap program as a major source of concern, stress, you name it, that they know is coming.

3:49:42>> It worries me also, Snap, it's something to keep you up late at night, Snap, the resources we have, the offset P&L problem.

3:49:56Tom said you have a lot of people working in the city of Cleveland, taking care of their families two days as well as would save a lot.

3:50:06>> Sure. >> So it does worry me.

3:50:09So I'm there, we're going to call the roll.

3:50:10>> All right, one last, Mr. Shaw?

3:50:13>> Just one last grounds for, I just want to make, I forgot to mention this earlier.

3:50:16It also concerns me, we don't have any restrictions or quotas for affordability in the criteria for a good food retailer, which I understand, separate.

3:50:28But I do believe that would be something that would also make me feel more comfortable as having some sort of things where we can make sure we are passing on some affordability things to the residents from whatever savings they might get from this.

3:50:41So, that I yield, thank you, Chair.

3:50:45>> To the committee, how would you feel?

3:50:47Would it disrupt the program if we on the floor added that amendment to include affordability criteria?

3:50:53>> Through the Chair, no, I think that would be, we can make that, yeah, absolutely.

3:50:58I think that the more important component of that will be when we come back for the legislation.

3:51:04And you can definitely, in advance, we can try and come up with some rubric of affordability when we're presenting the recommendations for your consideration.

3:51:15That might be easier, I think, yeah, I think it's just a matter of trying to figure out how to best measure that on the spot would be harder.

3:51:26But being able to come back with that information might be easier for us, or it might be making it more impactful and meaningful.

3:51:33>> No, that makes sense, I think it's on the final product, but do you want to make a floor amendment now?

3:51:37>> I don't have a good way to kind of phrase how we would pass that on, so I probably would, yeah, if we were going to.

3:51:48But I don't think, I don't have a good criteria for how to phrase that language because I understand it would also go into the good food.

3:51:57So that would still be up to the public health discretion, so I don't have language for that.

3:52:03>> Okay, fair enough.

3:52:05>> Through the Chair, if you're just urging us at the least to factor in affordability as part of the evaluation process,

3:52:15we are totally fair, and we will be ready to explain that as part of our justification when we bring our recommendations through counsel.

3:52:25And we will be ready to address that because we now know that the question's coming.

3:52:32So if that would be enough to kind of satisfy your concern, then I think that's a good way to go about it without amending this piece on the floor.

3:52:40But certainly open to any other approaches, I just thought I'd offer that.

3:52:47>> I'm going to amend it in DPS too if you think of phrasing one of yours.

3:52:50>> Okay, I mean, I, yeah.

3:52:52>> But I mean, it's a fair point that on our minds, of course, it's not just subsidizing high-end retailers with prosciutto's that I can't afford.

3:52:59I know it's not a nurse as well, but making it explicit that affordability for Cleveland residents is an essential goal here.

3:53:04>> Okay, yeah. >> I mean, we're going to line it.

3:53:07With that, for the Health Committee, NS, do you want to call the roll for, what is this, 1, 2, 3, 0, 20, 26?

3:53:14>> Yes.

3:53:16>> Yes. >> No.

3:53:21>> Yes. >> No.

3:53:28>> With that, thank you for your time today.

3:53:30This meeting of the Health Human Services and Arts Committee is adjourned to the call of the chair.