2026-10-12 - Finance, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Committee

00:04[music]

01:59>> Mhm.

03:08>> [music]

03:49[music]

05:49>> Mhm.

06:44>> Good afternoon.

06:47Today is Monday, October 12th. This

06:49Committee of Finance, Development,

06:51Equity, and Inclusion is called to

06:53order. Madam Clerk, call the roll.

06:56Here.

06:57>> Present.

06:58>> Here.

07:01Here.

07:02>> Present.

07:04>> Present.

07:06>> Present.

07:08>> Thank you. Uh

07:10first ordinance that we have, we have

07:12guests. Um I always start out with

07:14guests. So, I'm going to bring up for

07:16ordinance number 923-2026

07:19as amended by Council Member Santana,

07:22Bishop, and Griffin by departmental

07:23request, an emergency ordinance

07:25authorizing the directors of Development

07:27and/or Finance to apply for and accept a

07:29grant from the US Department of

07:31Transportation for the Regional

07:33Infrastructure Accelerator Program and

07:35authorizing the director to enter into

07:37one or more professional services

07:39contracts to implement the grant. And

07:42amendment states there is no legal

07:44objection to this legislation if amended

07:47as follows. One, in section four in the

07:49second paragraph starting at line seven,

07:52strike director of development and

07:54insert directors of development and or

07:57finance. This was dated 9 8 2026 by

08:00Vishnu Ganglani, assistant director of

08:03law.

08:04Chief director.

08:05>> Yeah, good afternoon, council.

08:08I'm here with David Wilson, major

08:09projects manager and director of border

08:11to small. We're here to talk about the

08:12regional infrastructure accelerator

08:14grant. This is a 1.15

08:17million dollar

08:19grant with no match available. So, we'll

08:23quickly go through a presentation.

08:25>> I do.

08:26>> Great.

08:26>> Yes.

08:26>> David will lead us through a quick

08:28overview and then we're happy to answer

08:29questions.

08:30>> We thought David was a guest, but he's

08:31not a guest. So,

08:32but we're going to go ahead since we've

08:34already started doing that.

08:35>> I wasn't going to contradict you, chair,

08:36so.

08:36>> [laughter]

08:38>> Thank you.

08:39>> It's okay.

08:40>> Thank you, chair. Thank you, committee.

08:42Yes, looking forward to going through

08:43the presentation. So, really quickly,

08:46the

08:48grant here before you is

08:50administered through the US Department

08:52of Transportation, the Build America

08:54Bureau, a 1.15

08:57million dollar award that we received in

08:59in April.

09:01The grant term is it's a 36-month period

09:04performance period.

09:06And this grant will allow the city to

09:08identify potential

09:10projects eligible for additional funding

09:12under the TIFIA and RIF programs

09:16as well as support the ongoing project

09:18of creating an accessible lakefront and

09:21riverfront.

09:23And as Chief Trevisan mentioned, there

09:26is no match required for this grant. And

09:29the Department of Transportation may

09:30provide additional time and or resources

09:33to the close out uh,

09:36uh, expiration or termination of the

09:37cooperative agreement. Uh, and so this

09:40slide shows what uh,

09:43the the the scope of the grant um,

09:45really what this uh, the funding can be

09:49applied toward uh, for the uh, project

09:52that I just mentioned. And the request

09:54for legislation is authorizing uh, the

09:56directors of development and our finance

09:58to apply for and accept the RIA grant

10:02uh,

10:03in addition to employing by contract uh,

10:05one or more uh, consultants or

10:07consultant firms for the purposes of

10:09supplementing the regularly employed

10:12City of Cleveland staff

10:13uh, in order to provide professional

10:15services necessary to implement the

10:17scope of the grant.

10:19Uh, happy to entertain any any

10:21questions.

10:22>> All right, thank you. Uh, this is heard

10:24in DPS, Councilwoman Santana.

10:27>> Yes, Council President, we heard it in

10:29DPS and recommended for passage.

10:31>> Thank you. Do we have any questions from

10:33our colleagues, Councilman Brian Kazy?

10:35>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman,

10:37to the chief, have you guys already

10:38received the money?

10:40>> Um, to the Councilman through the chair,

10:42we've received an award letter. We're

10:44not able to accept the dollars until we

10:45pass this legislation.

10:47>> Do So, Mr. Chairman, to the chief, so

10:49you already applied for, right?

10:50>> We applied for under previous

10:52authorization uh, legislative authority.

10:54We just added the apply for language

10:56back in for

10:57>> And do we know exactly how the 1.15 is

11:00going to be spent?

11:01>> Yeah, so over the 36 months as part of

11:04our grant application, we did include a

11:05budget. That budget is uh, changeable

11:08over the 36 months if needs change.

11:10Broadly, uh, it'll be used for a

11:12financial advisor and analysis, um,

11:14doing some credit analysis on our short

11:17or quarter short TIF, so determining how

11:19credit worthy that TIF is. Um, some work

11:22with project bundling and phasing, some

11:23engagement work, um, legal assistance we

11:26can use this grant to pay for, so um,

11:29the complicated legal documents as it

11:31relates to public improvements

11:33um, and then uh, some of the program

11:35management work.

11:36>> So Mr. Chairman to the chief,

11:38do we know yet what exactly

11:41um

11:42the administration wants to do with with

11:45the the Cortland Shorter Court?

11:47Shorter Cortland Shorter.

11:50>> I know. It's

11:51>> With the project, do we know do we know

11:53yet and does this constitute

11:56just the TIF area?

11:58>> So the the um RAE grant uh is a grant

12:02for technical assistance, again $1.15

12:04million,

12:05no match that we can use to hire

12:07technical advisers. Those technical

12:09advisers will then help us understand

12:13how to best leverage the TIF. So when we

12:16pass the Shorter Cortland Shorter TIF,

12:17uh we talked about using it on public

12:19improvements including improvements at

12:21the lakefront, riverfront, but

12:22throughout the city. Really the goal of

12:24these dollars is to bring in technical

12:26advisers to help us figure out how to

12:28stretch those dollars further and bring

12:31projects forward sooner.

12:32>> And if we're if we're getting this and

12:34we're using this for that, Mr. Chairman

12:37to the to the chief, what is the North

12:39Shore the the New Community Authority

12:41doing?

12:43>> So the the North Coast Waterfront

12:44Development Corporation and then the New

12:46Community Authority, two separate

12:47entities.

12:49Um uh North Coast Waterfront New

12:51Community Authority is a

12:53quasi-governmental body

12:55uh that is enabling

12:57uh the redevelopment of the lakefront.

12:59So that includes pre-construction, that

13:01can include paying for things like

13:03district parking uh down the line. So

13:06that's what the New Community Authority

13:08does is it looks at various different

13:10amenities that would benefit all of the

13:12various different um partners down at

13:14the lakefront.

13:16North Coast Waterfront Development

13:17Corporation is a 501c3

13:20uh and that entity is seeing forth the

13:23city's development um you know goals and

13:26lakefront goals. so working with

13:28development partners, identifying

13:29developers from around the country who

13:31are interested in coming into the city

13:34to invest their dollars here. All of

13:36these are interrelated pieces, but all

13:38kind of play their own separate part.

13:40>> And then, Mr. Chairman, to

13:42to the Chief, so we have the new

13:44community authority, we have the uh

13:48>> North Coast Water

13:49>> the North Coast Water Development. Now

13:51you're saying we

13:52that those we have those two entities

13:54doing the work. Now we're getting $1.15

13:58million to bring other people in

14:01to do

14:03more work, to do their work, to do the

14:06same work? What what is it?

14:08>> To the Councilman through the Chair,

14:09these are advisors to the city. So the

14:12shorter quarter short TIF is a city

14:14source of dollars. Those are That's We

14:16want to We want to hire advisors to then

14:20advise us.

14:20>> So we want to hire people to tell us how

14:23to spend our money.

14:24That's what you're saying with with this

14:26here, correct?

14:27>> As a client, yeah, I believe so. Yeah,

14:28to the Councilman through the Chair.

14:30>> Um Mr. Chairman to the Chief, is And

14:33does this portion of whatever they're

14:36going to be doing include Burke?

14:38>> To the Councilman through the Chair,

14:39this is really focused on the source of

14:41dollars. I don't anticipate it being for

14:43Burke.

14:44>> Okay. Does it Does it include

14:49E

14:50west west of

14:53East 9th?

14:54>> To To the Councilman through the Chair,

14:55it can include any project in the city

14:56of Cleveland.

14:57>> Oh, any project anywhere in the city of

14:59Cleveland?

14:59>> Correct. So any project that is eligible

15:01to be used with TIF dollars, which is

15:03any project,

15:04>> Oh.

15:04>> could could fall within this bucket.

15:05>> Okay, so Mr. Chairman to the Chief, I

15:08was under the assumption that this was

15:09just used for the waterfront. This is So

15:12if there's a TIF project on

15:15I don't know, East 185th and

15:17Nottingham, whatever.

15:19These This These dollars could be used

15:22to help guide that TIF as well.

15:25>> Uh so to to the councilman through the

15:27chair, the way that the dollars work is

15:29they are for

15:31any activities that are eligible for

15:33TIFIA or RIF. So, those are two federal

15:36loan programs.

15:38Um and so the question would be whether

15:40any project is eligible for those

15:43federal loan programs. And so there are

15:45projects throughout the city that could

15:47be tied to those federal loan programs.

15:49The way that we applied for the grant

15:50and you asked how we anticipate using

15:52these dollars. We anticipate using them

15:54tied to our shorter quarter short TIF

15:56district because those are substantial

15:58public improvements that we foresee in

16:00the near future. But when you ask what

16:03could these dollars be used for, any

16:05project that is eligible for TIFIA or

16:08RIF, which are two specific federal loan

16:10programs, could be eligible.

16:11>> Okay, my last question, Mr. Chairman of

16:13the Chief, does the city currently have

16:15any TIFIA or RIF dollars?

16:18>> To the councilman, no, we do not.

16:20>> Okay, so

16:21so we're bringing consultants in to tell

16:23us how to spend money we don't have.

16:26>> To the councilman uh through the chair

16:30the consultants are going to talk they

16:33were they are going to advise the city

16:35on our shorter quarter short TIF, which

16:37is in place, which is generating

16:39dollars.

16:40>> Which is not TIFIA or RIF though.

16:41>> TIFIA or RIF are loan programs that we

16:43have not we have are in the kind of

16:45pipeline for but we have not secured

16:47those loans, no.

16:49>> Okay.

16:49>> would need council approval to secure

16:51those loans.

16:52>> Okay.

16:53All right, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

16:54>> Councilman Palazzolo.

16:56>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

17:09More and more confused to the lake front

17:11cuz I'm I'm becoming more and more

17:12confused about it. Explain to the to the

17:15viewing public what again so they know

17:18what it is. What is a TIFIA? And what is

17:21an RIA?

17:23>> Sure. To to the councilman through the

17:25chair, um RIA is the Regional

17:28Infrastructure Accelerators. That is the

17:30name of the federal grant program where

17:33the city has been awarded 1.15 million

17:36dollars of federal dollars without any

17:40expectation or requirement for federal

17:42match. So, that is 1.15 million dollars

17:45that the federal government is going to

17:47give the city through RIA.

17:49>> Okay.

17:51>> The condition to be eligible to use

17:54those dollars is that they have to be in

17:57furtherance of a project that is

17:59eligible for TIFIA.

18:02Um that's the Transformative Infrastruc-

18:04Infrastructure Financing. I don't

18:06remember all of the exact federal

18:08acronym.

18:09Um

18:10but it is a uh it is a federal program

18:15grant loan program

18:17that is available. Um and so,

18:19essentially, the federal government

18:21wants to see more projects access this

18:24federal loan, TIFIA.

18:27And so, they are have created the

18:28Regional Infrastructure Accelerator

18:30grant as a way to help cities and other

18:34entities get their projects ready to

18:36then meet what is a very high bar to get

18:39into the TIFIA loan program.

18:41>> Okay.

18:42So,

18:43um

18:44at some point, you're going to identify

18:47a consultant, correct?

18:49>> To the councilman through the chair,

18:50correct.

18:51>> Okay. Um and who And will that come back

18:54to council or is that is awarded by the

18:56Board of Control?

18:57>> Uh to the councilman through the chair,

18:58it's awarded by Board of Control based

19:00on the authorizing legislation in Part

19:011.

19:01>> Okay.

19:02So, um

19:04then how is council to learn

19:07as to what if it's the Board of Control

19:09controlled by the mayor,

19:11how is council to learn

19:13who this company is and what expertise

19:15that they bring to the table.

19:17>> To the councilman through the chair, I

19:19believe that Board of Control

19:20resolutions are shared publicly and with

19:22all of council members and so that is

19:24one way that council would become aware.

19:26Um the other is any point at any request

19:29of any chair, we are happy to come and

19:31give an update about the comprehensive

19:33program in front of

19:34the city for the lakefront.

19:36>> Okay. So, as you've indicated, Mr.

19:38Trevisano,

19:39Burke Airport is not a part of this in

19:41any way, shape or form.

19:43>> To the councilman through the chair,

19:44that is what we are currently

19:45contemplating, yes.

19:46>> You're contemplating.

19:48>> We do not We do not anticipate Burke

19:50will be part of this in any way.

19:51>> Okay.

19:52So, um

19:53is the dismantling

19:55and demolition of the Shoreway between

19:59East 9th and West 6th

20:01a part of this?

20:03>> To the councilman through the chair, uh

20:05in that

20:07yes, in that that is the North Coast

20:09Connector project.

20:11Uh which is a project that has $150

20:13million in state and federal loans.

20:16Uh we have a federal match required for

20:18that project and so some of the

20:20technical work that these advisors uh

20:22that we can pay for out of this $1.15

20:25million from the federal government, uh

20:27some of what they will be doing is

20:29helping us determine how best to phase

20:31that project, bundle that project, and

20:34time the financing for that project to

20:35be at the but at biggest benefit to the

20:37residents of the city of Cleveland.

20:39>> Um with in the legislation itself, and

20:42I'm trying to find it here, is it

20:44embodied within a legislation exactly

20:47defining what the money's to be used

20:49for?

20:50>> Uh to to the councilman through the

20:52chair, the legislation says consistent

20:53with the grant application and

20:55requirements, um but it's not laid out,

20:58I don't think, specifically in the

20:59legislation.

21:00>> So, since it's not laid out in the

21:02legislation,

21:04then what's to stop the administration

21:07from utilizing it

21:09for something else.

21:11>> Uh to the councilman through the chair,

21:13there are really strict requirements

21:14from the federal government that lay out

21:16how federal dollars have to be spent, so

21:18they could not be spent outside of the

21:20parameters of the grant application that

21:21we submitted and the parameters that are

21:23were listed here today.

21:25>> Okay, so as we all know

21:27the vote those of you here at the table

21:29and in viewing public um

21:32the consultant that you're hiring

21:36can be utilized

21:38um

21:40as a part of the again dismantling,

21:42destruction, demolition

21:44of the Shoreway between East 9th and

21:47West 6th.

21:49Is that

21:50That's correct, right?

21:52>> To the councilman through the chair,

21:53just to be precise, um this is a grant

21:56for technical advice, but not for, you

21:59know, it this wouldn't be like a

22:01construction company that would be

22:03brought on.

22:04>> advice. Okay.

22:06Um is there any reporting provision back

22:08to council on this legislation, Mr.

22:11Chairman, to the Ms. Travisano?

22:13>> Uh to the to the councilman through the

22:15chair, I don't believe that there is

22:16built into the legislation, no.

22:18>> Mr. Chairman, and I would request that

22:21there be a report back to council every

22:23quarter

22:25as it pertains to this legislation and

22:27will make that motion

22:29that there be a report back uh to city

22:33council

22:35um

22:36every quarter as it pertains to this

22:39grant

22:40and the utilization of the grant.

22:44>> Are you putting forth an amendment?

22:46>> Yes, I'm making that an amendment, Mr.

22:47Chairman.

22:47>> Okay. Um there's an amendment put forth,

22:50could you make sure that you repeat the

22:52amendment so everybody understands your

22:53amendment.

22:53>> that every quarter there must be a

22:56report back to Cleveland City Council

22:59as it pertains uh to the uh consultant

23:02that's been retained

23:04how those funds are being spent and for

23:06what purpose.

23:08>> Thank you. Do we have a second for that

23:10amendment?

23:10>> Second.

23:11>> Councilman Casey has seconded the

23:12amendment. Do we have discussion?

23:15>> Uh just a question. How often do they

23:17give you reports?

23:19>> Uh to the councilman through the chair,

23:21the consultants will provide reports I

23:23think however we require in the

23:25contract. I have no worries about this

23:27amendment.

23:27>> All right. Therefore, uh there's

23:29amendment that's been uh table moved and

23:31seconded. Attorney, do you have that

23:32amendment?

23:33>> Say it one more time.

23:34>> Councilman Polensek, could you repeat

23:36the amendment one more time?

23:37>> That uh there should be a report back to

23:39the to the council every quarter

23:41as it pertains to the consultant that

23:44has been retained what their scope of

23:46work is and what they are actually

23:49doing.

23:50>> Okay.

23:52>> You got it?

23:53>> Yes.

23:54>> All right. And it's been seconded. Any

23:56other any further discussion?

23:58Seeing Councilman uh I'll seeing no

24:01further discussion, all in favor say

24:03aye.

24:03>> Aye.

24:04>> Uh any opposed?

24:05The ayes have it. Uh

24:07uh Councilman Polensek, did you have any

24:09follow-up?

24:11>> Uh

24:11no. Oh, I will make an official request

24:14to you, the chair, and to Mr. Visani. Um

24:17cuz this does pertain to the lakefront.

24:20I'd like to the know um who has been

24:23retained

24:24to lobby on behalf of the administration

24:27in Washington uh to uh close Burke

24:30Airport. I'd like to know who's been

24:31retained and what amount of money has

24:34been spent

24:35what funds have been utilized to pay

24:37that uh that uh

24:39that um

24:40lobbyist or firm who's ever been

24:42retained. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

24:44>> Mr. Visani?

24:45>> Yeah, to the councilman through the

24:46chair, I don't have that in front of me,

24:47but I'm happy to provide that

24:48afterwards.

24:48>> Thank you. Ms. Majestro, do you have

24:50that request?

24:51>> Yes.

24:52>> Okay, if you could follow up in writing

24:53so that we can make sure that we have

24:55that request.

24:55>> Thank you.

24:56>> And please clarify because I do know

24:58that we have uh Knight

25:01What is their name? Something and Knight

25:04that we already have as an automatic

25:06lobbyist.

25:08So, I don't know if that one is who

25:10we're looking at, but if there's

25:12additional lobbyists, but I do want to

25:13make sure even if it's Knight who is our

25:16lobbyist on file now, we want to make

25:18sure we clarify even if that if they're

25:20the ones that's lobbying, okay?

25:21>> Understood.

25:22>> thank you, Mr. Chairman.

25:23>> All right, thank you cuz I know that

25:24they do have one already.

25:25>> on uh

25:26>> Yeah, out there to decide I want to make

25:28sure that we get full full range of what

25:30you're asking for. Okay, uh Councilman

25:32Charles life.

25:34>> Thank you. Just just to build off

25:36Councilman Plensic's question, I I I

25:39know there's there's grant dollars for

25:41the North Coast Connector. What

25:43are I guess are there additional points

25:46of legislation coming down the pike

25:49prior to any construction or do does the

25:51administration have legal authority to

25:55let's just continue the conversation say

25:57of of alter the Shoreway tomorrow?

26:00>> Um to the Councilman through the chair,

26:02there are multiple pieces of legislation

26:04I would anticipate coming to City

26:05Council.

26:06One is on the allocation of the shorter

26:09quarter short TIF dollars and using

26:10those dollars at our federal as our

26:12federal match for the the North Coast

26:15Connector project. The other is

26:18a contract for progressive design

26:20builder. We'll certainly have to go in

26:22front of Council

26:24and then there will be

26:25many opportunities for the North Coast

26:26Connector and the um

26:30broader Lakefront development to go in

26:31front of Planning Commission.

26:33>> Okay.

26:33I ask because I do worry that we are

26:38increasingly putting the cart before the

26:41horse.

26:42Uh

26:44in that so for many years I raised

26:47questions about whether or not it would

26:50be prudent to what I'm saying is

26:53bifurcate the Shoreway. So, I'm not

26:54talking about whether the Shoreway

26:55should be a controlled access road or if

26:58it should be a boulevard. I'm speaking

27:01specifically to driving westbound and

27:04being able to enter directly onto the

27:06Main Avenue bridge to cross the river

27:08rather than having to make any turns

27:11to

27:13cross past the downtown area. And and I

27:16raised those concerns for many years and

27:20in personal conversations and I think

27:23publicly as well and and I'm it it it

27:27frankly concerns and annoys me to almost

27:29hear that the dot the grant dollars have

27:31been received and the implication being

27:34that to deviate or to question or to

27:36alter would jeopardize the receipt of

27:40the dollars when that is

27:43essentially this council being backed

27:45into a corner

27:47because we did not have the

27:48conversation. We I don't think we even

27:50engaged the community about that aspect

27:52of the plan. We've asked the community

27:53if they want better access to the lake

27:54front, but we haven't asked the

27:58thousands of West Side commuters or the

27:59thousands of people on the East Side

28:01trying to go west if they are aware and

28:04in favor of this change to the road

28:06network.

28:07So, I

28:09I say that because I don't want us to

28:11continue going down a road where we're

28:13accepting grant dollars that make

28:17the that predestine our future

28:20rather than allowing us to have those

28:23conversations with our community and I

28:25think especially given that and I know

28:27this isn't popular across this table,

28:29but given that the plan for right now is

28:31to demolish

28:33the existing Brown Stadium, I think that

28:35there is a value in taking a moment to

28:39understand how we can accomplish all

28:42things knowing that that is no longer an

28:44obstacle we have to incorporate into the

28:46design if it were to be demolished. And

28:48and I am interested in understanding if

28:51this

28:52is is the receipt of these dollars

28:54pushing us further towards a foregone

28:57conclusion or is it allowing us to

29:00understand what our potential

29:02alternatives could be that in it may be

29:04more favorable in fact now that we don't

29:06have to design for having a large

29:08stadium on the lakefront.

29:12>> To the councilman through the chair,

29:14I would say that these specific dollars,

29:17I don't know that they really move the

29:19needle either way and kind of the the

29:21two things that you just talked through.

29:23They're meant to be technical advice to

29:24the city for how to best utilize the

29:27shorter quarter short-term dollars.

29:29To the extent that there is

29:31conversations around, you know, project

29:33phasing, bundling, value engineering,

29:36etc. I think these dollars could be

29:38helpful for

29:40I know that these dollars could be

29:41helpful for all of those conversations,

29:43but this kind of core question you have

29:45around the connectivity, you know,

29:47north-south and then east-west, I don't

29:49foresee these dollars really moving the

29:51needle on that conversation one way or

29:53the other.

29:55>> Okay. Um thank you for that. I I will I

29:57will take that

29:58into consideration as I I weigh my path

30:01moving forward. I will say I've had

30:03conversations with Councilman Cazy as

30:06well as uh Mayor George of Lakewood and

30:09and we are interested in will likely be

30:11convening a public meeting that we would

30:13ask

30:14uh the administration of NOACA to come

30:16to to speak specifically to the

30:17Shoreway. The highest employment zip

30:19codes in downtown Cleveland are 44107,

30:22which is Lakewood, 44111, which

30:25encompasses our wards, 44135 is up there

30:27as well. Uh so I don't think that this

30:29is a uh

30:31a distraction. I think that this is an

30:33important community conversation that

30:34just frankly hasn't happened and uh

30:36we've discussed our ability to call that

30:38meeting so that we can get this aspect

30:40of the plan towards the forefront cuz

30:41what I want is I want a lakefront where

30:44people can walk to without having to

30:46worry about getting hit by cars, cuz

30:48we're funneling industrial traffic from

30:50the West Bank of the Flats into downtown

30:52rather than past downtown. So, thank

30:54you.

30:55>> Thank you.

30:57And as you mentioned earlier, I think a

30:59lot of those decisions still have to

31:00come to council, right?

31:02Okay, so I really hope that we have that

31:05conversation before we make any final

31:07decisions because I agree with the

31:08councilman that we want to make sure

31:10that council just isn't backed in a

31:12corner and then feel like well, we're

31:14going to jeopardize money if we don't

31:16have input. So, please keep that in

31:18mind.

31:19Uh any other questions, councilman

31:20Joseph Jones?

31:21>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um

31:24the presentation that was made, I just

31:26want to make sure I got some um

31:28clarification on it. Whenever you spend

31:30these dollars, you will be coming back

31:32to Cleveland City Council, is that

31:33correct?

31:35>> Uh to the councilman through the chair,

31:37the legislation authorizes accept of the

31:39of the grant dollars and expenditure of

31:41the grant dollars. We did just agree

31:43that we will do quarterly updates back

31:45to City Council.

31:49>> So, when you choose whoever you're going

31:51to choose to do whatever you're going to

31:53do because that's not clear, is that

31:55correct?

31:56>> Uh to the councilman through the chair,

31:57that'll go through Board of Control.

31:58>> So, the Board of Controls would make the

32:00approvals.

32:01Well, would you be uneasy when you're

32:04spending this money just come to the

32:05council and say, "Hey, these are the

32:06consultants we got to do this project."

32:09And then that way we know how it's is

32:10spent and it won't be so much of a

32:12question mark over how the funds should

32:14be utilized.

32:15>> To the councilman through the chair, I

32:16think that's exactly uh the goal of the

32:18quarterly update meeting. So, we'll be

32:20doing that quarterly. We'll be able to

32:21say, you know, what we've spent the

32:23dollars on and then what we anticipate

32:24going forward.

32:25>> I see. Councilman, just for

32:26clarification, we we just had that

32:28conversation right before you came in.

32:29So, all those questions, they're going

32:30to be getting Miss Majestro is going to

32:32be getting this information and they're

32:33going to have that in the quarterly

32:34report. So, uh you're right on point,

32:37but a lot of your colleagues ask those

32:38exact questions.

32:39>> And and then the and I I heard some of

32:42it, you know, while I was on my way back

32:44down here. Um

32:45and I know that some of it had been

32:47touched upon, but in the line of

32:49questioning, I know we had a meeting at

32:52transportation

32:53last week. And it sounded like

32:57we're not moving forward with the

32:58program that we initially thought we

33:00were going to move forward. Is that

33:02where we on that and would these funds

33:04be utilized in some kind of way to put a

33:07golf course at at Burke Lake Airport?

33:10>> To the councilman, through the chair,

33:13the conversation at finance today was

33:15very consistent with the conversation

33:17that we had at DPS last week. So,

33:20$1.15 million, no federal grant match

33:22required for technical assistance

33:25to the city of Cleveland as the client

33:27for those to those to the

33:28>> The the question is are we going to use

33:30any of those funds to to to deal with

33:32this airport?

33:33>> No.

33:33>> We we So, that this wouldn't even be

33:36involved with that at all.

33:37>> Correct.

33:37>> Okay. No no further questions, Mr.

33:39Chairman. Thank you.

33:40>> Thank you. And I just want to make sure

33:42I reiterate to all of my colleagues that

33:43a lot of these questions already asked.

33:45So, we in order for the sake of

33:48making sure that we don't be

33:49duplicative, please make sure that we

33:52try to start out any of these meetings

33:53being here on time so that we can make

33:55sure cuz all these questions were

33:57addressed. So, I want to make sure we

33:58state that. Are there any more questions

34:00at 923-2026

34:02as amended?

34:04>> [sighs]

34:04>> Seeing no the questions, ordinance

34:05number 923-2026

34:08as amended stands approved.

34:12Thank you.

34:13>> Thank you.

34:18>> All right, we have a real quick piece

34:19before we I know that a lot of people

34:21are trying to get to this meeting at

34:223:00. Uh this is ordinance number 1050

34:261043-2026

34:28as amended by council members Bishop and

34:30Griffin by departmental request and

34:33emergency ordinance authorizing the

34:34director of parks and recreation, public

34:37works, and/or finance to enter into one

34:39or more contracts with one or more

34:41temporary employment agencies to provide

34:44professional services to supply

34:46temporary or and/or seasonal personnel

34:49for the Department of Parks and

34:50Recreation, public works, and/or finance

34:54for the various divisions of city

34:55government for a period of up to 1 year.

34:58And I'll read this.

35:01I want to make sure that I get this

35:02right cuz there is

35:05legal objection

35:07to this legislation if amended as

35:09follows.

35:10And that's uh in section 1 at the second

35:14paragraph line 1 after Board of Control

35:17insert with legislative authority. Uh

35:19and what we have to do is uh this

35:23ordinance itself provides authority for

35:26the Board of Control to select a

35:29contractor. Requiring further

35:31legislative authority would violate the

35:33charter.

35:34City Council does not control the Board

35:36of Control. Uh so what we would need is

35:39for someone to proffer an amendment to

35:41remove this uh proffer an amendment to

35:43remove this amendment.

35:46Some Some move.

35:48Uh do we have a second to remove this

35:50amendment?

35:50>> I'll second.

35:51>> Councilman Michael Polensek has

35:53seconded. Uh any discussion over the

35:55removal of this amendment?

35:57Councilman Kelley uh would like to offer

36:01an amendment a different amendment.

36:03Councilman Kelley

36:03>> Do you have it?

36:06Is this it? No, that's not it.

36:07>> Do you want to vote on it?

36:09>> Oh, hold on. Hold on real quick. I got

36:10to vote on removing the amendment first.

36:12All in favor say I.

36:14>> I.

36:14>> I.

36:14>> Any opposed?

36:16>> No.

36:17>> Okay. All right. The eyes have it. So

36:19that amendment is removed. Uh Councilman

36:23Kelley is going to be offering a

36:24different amendment.

36:26Yeah, let me find it. Hold on 1 second.

36:28>> You find it.

36:35>> Do you have it Do you have it there in

36:36front of you?

36:40Yes.

36:42I think so.

36:43No.

36:45I don't.

36:46Oh, there it is.

36:48I knew somebody had it.

36:50Uh Mr. Chairman, I'd recommend um as an

36:53amendment at the end of section 1 insert

36:55the contract or contracts authorized

36:58shall provide that no hiree shall

37:00possess a weapon or illegal substance

37:03while on the job. Any hiree with two or

37:06more such infractions shall be

37:08immediately terminated.

37:11Thank you.

37:12Uh

37:13Here.

37:13>> I mean it's not just What

37:15is this?

37:16>> All right.

37:16>> certification, Mr. Chairman. What that

37:17piece is is with the labor.

37:20>> I have That's I think that's your

37:21discussion. Yes.

37:23Okay, you got You need a second.

37:25All right. So, do we have a second for

37:27that amendment?

37:28>> Second.

37:29>> Councilman

37:30uh Councilman um

37:32Slyth has voted uh this amendment has

37:34been moved and seconded. Uh any

37:36discussion on this amendment?

37:38>> Yes, Mr. Chairman.

37:40>> Hold on for a second, Mr. Chair. Okay,

37:42so

37:44does the attorney have the amendment?

37:49If we can give the copy, okay.

37:51>> she has a copy.

37:51>> Okay. Uh

37:53Councilman Kazy

37:55I'll I'll reread I'll reread it uh for

37:57Councilman uh Conwell. The contract or

38:00contracts authorized shall provide that

38:02no hirees

38:04shall possess a weapon or illegal

38:07substance while on the job. Any hiree

38:10with two or more such infractions shall

38:12be immediately terminated. This is in

38:14regards to the temporary hires from

38:17Snyder Blake for

38:19um

38:20temporary

38:22help during the summer and and winter,

38:24too? They Are they here during Mo-

38:25mostly it's mostly the summer help,

38:27correct?

38:29And this this stemmed from incidents

38:31that our own employees were having with

38:35um

38:36some of the temporary help that gets

38:39employed by by Snyder Blake. This helps

38:42protect our

38:43our regular employees.

38:45>> So, just to be more clear, and are you

38:48familiar with that incident between a

38:50Snyder Blake um temporary worker and

38:54city employee that evidently there was a

38:56confrontation that took place.

38:58>> So, uh I I did ask around. I asked

39:01Commissioner Porras, asked folks in

39:02Parks, asked our folks. We We don't know

39:04about an issue of someone pulling a gun

39:07on someone. I don't know about that. So,

39:10um

39:11>> Okay.

39:12Okay. Um what is your current policy?

39:16And you've heard the amendment around

39:17making sure that we have background

39:19checks making sure that

39:20>> we we excluded that.

39:22>> Okay, we excluded that, but can you tell

39:23us what your How do you hire your

39:25third-party seasonal workers?

39:28>> um

39:29any individual that comes through Snyder

39:30Blake is required to do a background

39:32check.

39:33They are required to do a drug test, and

39:36we do have a pretty strict policy. We We

39:38typically do

39:40um

39:42one and out for something that would be

39:43as egregious as weapons or drugs.

39:46So,

39:48um the

39:48the amendment is fine.

39:50>> Okay. So, just to make sure we clarify

39:52the amendment. What Councilman Keazy is

39:54trying to make sure is that any

39:56third-party uh groups that we have, that

39:59there are actually guardrails to make

40:00sure that we protect our employees and

40:02the public. Um and they already have

40:05background checks. They already have

40:07rules that if they do have weapons or um

40:10drugs or anything else on the job, then

40:12you have the right to remove through

40:15your third party.

40:16>> That is correct.

40:17>> Okay.

40:17>> That is

40:18>> correct.

40:18>> All right. Any other discussion

40:19regarding this amendment?

40:20>> Yes, Mr. Chairman.

40:21>> Yeah, yeah, Mr. Chairman.

40:22>> Councilman

40:24Joseph Jones and then Councilman Kevin

40:26Carter.

40:26>> I'll be brief, Mr. Chairman.

40:28>> Um

40:28>> Let him Let him have it and um Mr.

40:30Chair, if you can and I'll come in.

40:32>> He I got Councilman Jones and then

40:34[snorts] I'll come back to you,

40:35Councilman.

40:35>> All right, good. Good.

40:37Uh Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, we

40:39we've talked, you know, in years past a

40:41lot about the this particular contract

40:44each year. And you know, I always ask

40:46the question, can we Do we have any

40:48other alternatives uh in the greater

40:50area where we could could have

40:52also have the opportunity apply? Because

40:55I know, Mr. Chairman, in years past,

40:57we've

40:58it's been

40:59>> [sighs and gasps]

41:00>> it's been depressing, to say the least,

41:03in terms of the quality of people who

41:05come out of that. And um and and I've

41:09had to deal with it for quite bit of

41:11some time and um I wanted to hear what

41:14the director has and to say about that.

41:17>> Director.

41:17>> Sir, absolutely. Uh through the chair to

41:19the councilman and to the committee as a

41:21whole, the Snyder Blake contract um

41:25what I will call the the relationship

41:27that we've had with Snyder Blake has

41:28been for a long time. We have I have in

41:30my experience, we've used other

41:32employers or other contractors to do it.

41:35Honestly, you you're going to get the

41:36same result if you have the same people

41:38that come through the door. And that's

41:41in for the most case for most part what

41:44you pay.

41:45Um the amount of money that we pay and

41:48what we're asking for,

41:50it would be very difficult, for

41:51instance, to get a landscaper that is

41:54very qualified, has no background, to

41:56pay them $15 an hour. That's going to be

41:58very difficult because many of these

42:00people are going to be able to get paid

42:02a different rate and they'll be able to

42:04have a job all year long. To be able to

42:06have somebody on a seasonal basis where

42:08you have them only for a few weeks, a

42:09few months out of the year,

42:11um that's one thing, but I will say

42:13this.

42:14um I have hired many qualified

42:18individuals

42:19from Snyder Blake. In fact, if you all

42:21know Michael Ingram,

42:22Michael Ingram, who's actually now

42:24running this program, was a Snyder Blake

42:25employee.

42:27And so there there there are bad seeds,

42:29but I think there are a lot of good

42:31seeds. There are a lot of good people

42:32that need an opportunity that come

42:34through this program.

42:36I will say that we are looking for ways

42:38to use less of this. In the past week,

42:40it was pretty much 80% of what we've

42:42done. Now we've kind of shrunk it down

42:44to maybe 60%. We use an outside

42:46contractor. We are open to finding more

42:48alternative ways, but in my mind this is

42:50still necessary because of the

42:52seasonality of this work. How do you get

42:54people that only work for a certain

42:56period of the year? And to keep them to

42:59have them all the time, that's a

43:00challenge. So to have this kind of

43:03program is is important for what we do.

43:05>> Councilman.

43:06>> Mr. Chairman, how how how much does

43:09Snyder Blake make off the contract?

43:12>> Okay.

43:14>> Thank you.

43:15>> Through the chair to the councilman, the

43:18current rates are for a person who does

43:21not have a driver's license is $21.05

43:25per hour.

43:26>> So they make $21.

43:28>> Snyder Blake does.

43:30No, he asked what he asked. Yes, for

43:31Snyder Blake.

43:32>> What he's talking about is how much of

43:34the compensation does the actual company

43:36make?

43:37>> Yes.

43:37>> For doing the contract.

43:39>> So through the chair to the councilman,

43:41>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

43:42>> The employee makes $16.85. The company

43:45makes $21.05.

43:46>> So then the company makes about $5 or

43:49about $4 and change off of every

43:51employee.

43:51>> Yep, that's that's correct.

43:53>> Basically, if you have a unit, it's 21

43:56and change. And then 16 15 of that goes

44:00to the employee. Six of that goes to the

44:02company.

44:03>> Yep, 16.85 to the employee.

44:05>> Okay.

44:06>> So so what's the annual we give to

44:08Snyder Blake?

44:09>> Mr. Chairman, to the director.

44:11Uh through the chair to the council may

44:13be annual amount that we pay. Um it for

44:16the Department of Public Works is

44:17somewhere around

44:19I want to say be about 2.7, 2.8 million

44:21dollars. And then there's other

44:22departments that also are um using this

44:25contract as well.

44:26>> I see. So, so Snyder Blake get how much

44:29on an annual year from the contract?

44:31>> So, through the Department of Public

44:32Work about 2.7 to 2.8 million dollars.

44:34Could be a little bit more, but

44:37>> And what other departments, Mr.

44:39Chairman, um

44:40use the contract along with um

44:43>> Okay. So, we we did send that

44:45information through and I want to s-

44:48Oh, this is your phone. Sorry.

44:50Uh through the chair to the council we

44:51did send that information to Brooke. I

44:52think community relate the community

44:55committee development, uh parks,

44:58and finance,

45:01health.

45:02Once you

45:06>> So, so they so they make 2.7 million for

45:08all the departments combined under this

45:10contract?

45:12>> Can we get that accurate amount if we

45:14can from Ms. Majesta? I want to make

45:15sure we get that accurate amount.

45:17Not try to guess it.

45:19>> Mr. Chairman, to the director. Do So, so

45:21they make 2.7 million serving not only

45:24your department, but all the departments

45:26in the city?

45:27>> Uh through the chair the 2.7 and 2.8

45:29just for Public Works. And we can get uh

45:31through the the chair we can get the

45:33accurate information to this to this

45:35body.

45:35>> So, then Mr. Chairman, the request would

45:37be um how much money does Snyder Blake

45:42make from the city of Cleveland? So, in

45:44your department is 2.7 million. So,

45:47could it be 10 million?

45:50>> Don't know.

45:51>> them the accurate with all the other

45:52departments? So, that every department

45:54that use Snyder Blake can you give them

45:56the us the number?

45:57>> Yeah.

45:58>> So, we can do that.

45:59>> And Mr. Chairman, how many years have to

46:01the director of Snyder-Blake held this

46:03contract with the city?

46:08>> Yeah, through the chair, I don't know.

46:09I'd have to look at that. And I I'll get

46:11back once I get you the

46:12number.

46:12>> years, 30 years?

46:14>> No, it's been more than 10, but I don't

46:16I don't know the exact number through

46:17the chair.

46:18>> Mr. Chairman, would you would you does

46:20the the assistant commissioner know? Cuz

46:22seem like she knows.

46:24Do you know how many years, Mr.

46:25Chairman, to the assistant commissioner?

46:28>> Through the chair, I'm the commissioner

46:29of Parks and Rec. Okay. Um it's been

46:32well over

46:33uh I've been downtown since 2012 and it

46:35was

46:36in place then.

46:39So, it's been well before this it's been

46:41well over a decade.

46:42>> And it's been well over who?

46:44>> A decade.

46:45>> A decade. I know.

46:46And it it seems like, Mr. Chairman,

46:48Snyder-Blake has had this contract

46:5130-some years plus?

46:53>> No, it hasn't been 30-plus years. I've

46:55been here 28 years and it wasn't in

46:57place.

46:58>> I started in 1998

47:01and I remember Snyder-Blake, Mr.

47:02Chairman.

47:02>> we could we yeah, just we'll get that

47:04information

47:05>> the issue and I'm going to come back to

47:07this because this is important, you

47:08know, is is and I've said this in terms

47:11of diversity of our city

47:13uh having to um just have one person

47:16have the contract. And then we sit here

47:19we don't we don't know nothing about

47:20them.

47:21They've never been here at this table.

47:23I've never seen them.

47:25And so, it would be nice, Mr. Chairman,

47:27that you would have Snyder and Blake and

47:29whoever that is is come here and sit

47:31here at the table and talk to us because

47:33the problems that we have out in our

47:35neighborhood is basically service. And,

47:38you know, I have, Mr. Chairman, um to

47:40the director I've had to deal with um

47:43some of the seasonal uh employees uh in

47:46my neighborhood trying to get them to

47:47cut vacant lots. And I've unfortunately

47:50have had uh my share of of of uh stories

47:54to tell. I'm not going to labor this

47:56committee with some of them, but some of

47:58them, Mr. Chairman, has been right out

48:01sad

48:02and appalling.

48:04And in some instances, just horrible.

48:08And so, I would say, Mr. Chairman,

48:11why can't we have Snyder Blake come to

48:13the table at some point? Is that

48:14possible, Mr. Chairman, to the director?

48:17>> Uh we can work on that and figure that

48:19out when we do the operational handlers

48:21or something with that.

48:21>> I would appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.

48:23And then you'll get back with me, Mr.

48:25Chairman, to director let us know how

48:26many years they had the contract. And if

48:28they had it more than 30 years, Mr.

48:29Chairman, why couldn't we have, you

48:31know, some other kind of diversity?

48:33>> that's the um

48:34>> And that And that's just the That's

48:35putting that out there. And

48:37And the director doesn't have to answer

48:38cuz it seems like they like Snyder and

48:40Blake. Seems like a lot of people like

48:41them cuz they've been here for 30 years.

48:44So, so it would be, you know,

48:45interesting, Mr. Chairman, just to

48:47figure all of this out cuz it seems like

48:49it's more than meets the eye.

48:50>> All right. And we'll look at that. And I

48:52know that one question that the

48:54councilman didn't ask that I think if

48:55you guys could provide clarity to, has

48:57anybody else ever bid on the contract?

49:00Because I know that the only other

49:01companies that I could think of right

49:03off my head that do this kind of

49:04seasonal work is Minute Man and Rand.

49:08>> Yeah, so

49:09to the chair.

49:10>> those are the groups I can remember when

49:11I first got here there was a company

49:12called Flex Tech

49:14that ran Flex Tech. They were here when

49:16I first got here. And then there was a

49:18few years a company was called They were

49:19non-profit called Community Hiring Hall.

49:22>> Okay.

49:23>> Adecco. Yeah, Adecco is still

49:25>> just let us know what companies like

49:26actually have bid or have been out there

49:29so that we could kind of know the scope

49:31of that. We are still on discussion

49:33regarding the amendment offered by

49:35Councilman Casey. Councilman Conwell

49:37regarding the amendment that Councilman

49:39Casey has put forth.

49:41If just to reiterate, he has put forth

49:43an amendment to make sure we have

49:46protections for our workers and our

49:47citizens

49:48by making sure that there are strict

49:50rules for our third-party providers

49:53not to have weapons or

49:55drugs on the job.

49:57>> Yeah, you know what? I agree with that

49:59also. I think it should be in their

50:01training manual as well to the chair to

50:03the but it should be non-negotiable.

50:06I can't go for it two or three times,

50:08whatever the case may be. You know, some

50:10policies

50:12they're non-negotiable and that one

50:14right there is non-negotiable when you

50:16bring in a weapon. So, we say let me let

50:19me see this right here

50:21Council Member.

50:24I'm looking at uh

50:26Any hire with two or more infractions

50:28should be immediately terminated. It

50:30should be non-negotiable.

50:33That the first time they bring a weapon

50:34in that you that you terminate it.

50:37I mean, maybe I'm reading it wrong. What

50:39you have here to the chair to Council

50:41Member Casey, any hire with two

50:44two is two or more fractions or more

50:47fractions like what? Three, four, five,

50:48six, seven, eight, nine, 10? I don't

50:50know. Should be immediately terminated.

50:53I think I think that with a with a

50:55weapon that could be a felony.

50:58Um,

50:59I think that's non-negotiable and it

51:01should be non-negotiable with any

51:03employee in the city of Cleveland and

51:05that's where I'm at.

51:07>> And Councilman, I I hear you saying I do

51:09want to make sure that if I can say this

51:12um with the concealed and carry laws in

51:15the city of Cleveland and the state of

51:17Ohio being the way that they are

51:20okay? Even though I know if you are have

51:22a felony record that you are not allowed

51:25to carry a weapon under disability.

51:27Um, but for the most part with concealed

51:30and carry laws being as loose as they

51:32are, I would be a little bit concerned

51:35being um

51:37being overly

51:39um

51:39strict on if somebody has a weapon. And

51:43let me just state because um

51:46and I'm just stating this clearly I'm

51:47almost telling you that probably more

51:49people than

51:50that we interact with on a day-to-day

51:52basis are probably carrying weapons,

51:53especially if they don't have any felony

51:55records.

51:56Um,

51:57and then I think that there are criminal

51:59um statutes that if somebody actually

52:01intimidates somebody with a weapon or

52:03something else that will create

52:06automatic fires and other things like

52:08this. I think what Councilman McKenzie

52:10is trying to do is almost trying to put

52:12how you put those stickers on certain

52:14places like weapons are not allowed in

52:16here to explicitly state that you should

52:18not and cannot bring weapons into the

52:20building.

52:20>> That means it's non-negotiable there in

52:22CP.

52:23>> I Councilman, I'm fine with whatever you

52:25guys want to do. I'm just trying to just

52:26give you sort of the background. The

52:28reason that I am somewhat um, supportive

52:31of Snyder Blake and these programs is

52:34because we have a large portion of our

52:36community that are formerly

52:37[clears throat] incarcerated, and we

52:39have a large portion of our community

52:41that just want to make a part-time or

52:43just want to, you know, want to work a

52:44seasonal job. So, I want to us to not be

52:47overly rigid with a group of people that

52:51um,

52:52already have significant

52:54um, collateral sanctions and barriers

52:56and other rules that they have to that

52:58prevent them from, as you always state,

53:00getting gainful employment and other

53:02things. But, like you said, and you can

53:04um, pivot to you guys,

53:07what is non-negotiable? If somebody

53:09pulls out a weapon or does something, is

53:11that non-negotiable?

53:12>> Let me say this. Let me say this, CP,

53:13before they talk. Your job to the chair

53:16is to protect your employees and your

53:19customers at all times. And if you don't

53:23protect them,

53:25then, you know what? We can end up with

53:27a lawsuit also, CP. They It's loose and

53:30everything, but we say that it's

53:31non-negotiable.

53:34>> Yeah.

53:35Do you want to speak?

53:37>> Okay.

53:38>> To the chair, to the councilman, I I

53:40It is non-negotiable. We've had

53:42instances over the years with some of

53:45our temporary agency employees staff

53:47members that some of their acts are

53:50non-negotiable [clears throat] and we

53:51put them on the do not recall hire list.

53:54So Snyder Blake understands and we say

53:56Snyder Blake because they've had the

53:58contract for some time.

53:59>> I am not worried about that. You got

54:00Snyder Blake cuz you trying to control

54:02the cost of labor. So I understand that.

54:05>> So we do have some non-negotiables where

54:07we don't get them back. So we've had

54:10staff members over the years that are

54:11drinking on the job. They may fight on

54:13the job. Those are non-negotiables for

54:15us.

54:15>> Non-negotiable.

54:16>> So for

54:18a threat with a gun or drugs, that's

54:21non-negotiable. We've had instances

54:23where

54:25the police has been called. That's

54:26non-negotiables for us. So I like this

54:29particular language in there two times.

54:33Depending on what you do, it's

54:34non-negotiable.

54:35>> Right, it's non-negotiable. What you

54:37trying to control, Council President, is

54:40the culture. If you don't control that

54:42culture and you let it get out there,

54:45then you going to have issues and

54:46concerns and you have more things that's

54:48going to hit you with drinking or

54:50whatever the case may be. I love his

54:53piece of legislation, but with guns,

54:55it's non-negotiable and we just take

54:57those guys on cuz you got to protect

54:59your employees as well. It's there and

55:02it's your job. If not, then it's going

55:04to be on you, too, the chair.

55:07>> All right.

55:08So we heard uh discussion. All in favor

55:11of the amendment offered by Councilman

55:12Casey, say I. I. Any opposed? The eyes

55:16have it. All right, thank you.

55:18Therefore, the amendment carries. Are

55:19there any other questions regarding

55:211043-2026

55:23as amended?

55:24>> I do.

55:25>> Councilman Joe Jones and Councilman

55:27Kevin Kramer.

55:28>> Mr. Chairman, it's quick. Do Are they

55:31the the people who um

55:35are part-time employees, are are they I

55:37mean,

55:38do we have any restrictions on them

55:39carrying guns?

55:43>> There you go, sir.

55:45Through through the chair to the

55:46councilman, we do not allow weapons on

55:49the premises, in the vehicles, honestly.

55:51>> And and and I will say, Mr. Chairman, I

55:53you know, I've had some situations where

55:55I've dealt with the director and he's

55:57been really good on on dealing with

55:59issues and situations and and being

56:02really well

56:04a great communicator and let me know

56:06about certain things. So, I appreciate

56:07that. So, thank you. No further

56:09questions.

56:09>> Councilwoman Kevin Conwell.

56:11>> All right, Councilman Joe Jones.

56:14I'm with you. He asked He asked my

56:15question. I don't want to repeat it.

56:17>> Thank you.

56:18>> And just for the sake of making sure we

56:20protect workers, I'll be honest with

56:22you. I've also seen citizens, especially

56:24where there's monuments, pull out guns

56:27on our city workers and on our on on

56:29Nimbus well.

56:30So, I just want to make sure everybody

56:32knows that

56:33you know, let's make sure that we uh

56:35keep that in mind as well. There's a lot

56:36of these city workers get intimidated

56:37and I've had to intervene where

56:40especially if they mess up one of those

56:41memorials where there's bottles put

56:43everywhere and a city team has to go

56:45move and I've seen that get very

56:47volatile. So,

56:49it's all the way around. Yeah.

56:50>> But you know what, CP?

56:51>> Okay.

56:52>> To the chair to CP.

56:54>> Um

56:55>> You call the police when you're ready to

56:57move remove the memorial.

56:59You call the police and I agree with

57:01you. I remember a

57:03sanitation worker that was uh murdered

57:05on the job also and uh

57:09>> Okay.

57:09>> It's It's just guns, man, with that. And

57:12you got to take a stand.

57:13>> Thank you.

57:14>> All right.

57:15>> All right, thank you.

57:16Uh seeing all the questions, ordinance

57:18number 1043-2026

57:20as amended stands approved. Thank you

57:22all.

57:23>> Thank you.

57:25>> Um I know that Councilwoman House-Jones

57:28has to go to uh housing innovation uh

57:32meeting, but um there's a ordinance

57:36950-2026

57:38as amended by Council members House

57:40Jones and Star, an emergency ordinance

57:42amending the title and section two of

57:44ordinance number 715-2025

57:47passed July 9th, 2025 relating to

57:51Cleveland Casino revenues for use by

57:54Cleveland City Council.

57:56And uh there are a couple of amendments

57:59that have come down from

58:01uh the law department.

58:04Um

58:05>> Um I probably it probably was going to

58:07make sense for me to just come back in

58:09an hour if y'all still here. How many

58:10pieces we have to do?

58:11>> I got a lot more. You want to just do

58:12that?

58:13>> Yep, I'll come back.

58:14>> Okay. All right, I'm going to wait till

58:15Councilwoman House Jones can come back.

58:17All right, thank you.

58:18>> Yes, I'm going to come back.

58:20>> Thank you.

58:21>> We going to be here in an hour?

58:24>> Huh?

58:25>> You going to be here in an hour?

58:26>> I don't know. Hopefully.

58:30All right.

58:32Parks and recreation.

58:33>> What's at 3:00? What's going on?

58:34>> Parks and recreation. For everybody

58:36that's been asking me what's going on at

58:383:00 in Ward 8 on East 66th Street,

58:42there is something called an housing

58:44innovation district. At 3:00, there's a

58:47huge meeting that um everybody's talking

58:50about about how they're going to roll

58:52out the housing innovation district.

58:54That's the district on East 66th that

58:56that's in Councilwoman House Jones' ward

58:59uh where all the directors and I believe

59:00some external partners are getting

59:02together to um

59:04develop that plan, and it's a pretty um

59:06important meeting, okay?

59:08Everybody's been asking me what's going

59:09on at 3:00. I want to make sure

59:10everybody knows.

59:14>> I wasn't invited either.

59:16>> Well, it's I just said Ward it's Ward 8.

59:19>> Doesn't mean I don't want to be there.

59:20>> I know.

59:22>> One council person on the council.

59:24>> All right. Ordinance number 688-

59:282026 as amended by council members

59:31Casey, Hudson, Bishop, and Griffin by

59:32departmental request. An emergency

59:35ordinance authorizing the director of

59:36parks and recreation to execute various

59:39deeds of easement granting to the

59:41Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District

59:43certain easement rights at or under

59:46several city-owned properties at Emery

59:48Park and Esterbrook Park for the

59:50Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District's

59:53Big Creek Storage Tunnel and declaring

59:56the easement rights

59:57not needed for the city's public use.

1:00:01Uh

1:00:03There are several amendments that I will

1:00:06not read, but they are on your tablet if

1:00:09you want to read the

1:00:10that there are no legal objection to

1:00:12this legislation if amended. Uh there

1:00:14are several amendments once again on

1:00:17your on your tablet. Uh three amendments

1:00:20and uh it's dated 10 12

1:00:2326 by Nicholas Delaney, assistant

1:00:26director of law. So, please refer to the

1:00:28amendments on your tablet

1:00:31uh for the three lengthy amendments that

1:00:33uh were submitted. All right? Uh

1:00:37Councilwoman Councilman Bishop, this was

1:00:40heard

1:00:40Services.

1:00:42>> Uh yes, Mr. President. We vetted this

1:00:45Municipal Services and we fully

1:00:47recommend it for passage.

1:00:48>> Thank you, Councilman Casey. This was

1:00:50heard in Public Utilities.

1:00:51>> Duly vetted and recommended for passage

1:00:53as amended.

1:00:54>> Thank you, Councilwoman Santana. You

1:00:55have relieved it from Department of

1:00:57Public Development Planning and

1:00:59Sustainability.

1:00:59>> Yes, I relieved it.

1:01:01>> Okay, thank you. Director and uh team,

1:01:03please announce who all is with you.

1:01:05>> Uh thank you uh chairperson. So,

1:01:07Commissioner Di Genaro is going to

1:01:09review this project with us.

1:01:11>> Thank you, Director. Um before I begin,

1:01:13I'd like to introduce our guest from the

1:01:15Sewer District to uh Director DeRosa's

1:01:18right, um we have Doug LaPadula who is

1:01:20the project manager, and also Angela

1:01:23Jones, who is the senior government

1:01:26government affairs person for for

1:01:28Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District.

1:01:31And

1:01:32this project is known as the Big Creek

1:01:34Storage Tunnel. It is the seventh of

1:01:37seven

1:01:38CSO tunnels. CSO stands for combined

1:01:41sewer overflow. And these are

1:01:45storage [clears throat] tunnels that are

1:01:47part of the sewer district's Project

1:01:49Clean Lake, which is a $3 billion

1:01:5224-year program aimed at significantly

1:01:55reducing CSOs discharge into Lake Erie

1:01:58and waterways other waterways around the

1:02:01greater Cleveland area. The Big Creek

1:02:03Tunnel is over 4 miles long. It's 20 ft

1:02:07in diameter,

1:02:09and it is built in rock 50 to 100 ft

1:02:12below the surface under Cleveland and

1:02:15also the villages of Brooklyn and

1:02:17Lyndale.

1:02:18And this tunnel will capture and store

1:02:21combined sanitary and storm water from

1:02:2211 11 combined sewer outfalls. And upon

1:02:26completion, CSO volumes discharged to

1:02:29Big Creek and its tributaries will be

1:02:30reduced by 550 million gallons per year.

1:02:34The sewer district requires access for

1:02:37construction and future maintenance of

1:02:39the project and is seeking three

1:02:41permanent surface easements,

1:02:43four subterranean easements, and three

1:02:45temporary easements from the city at

1:02:47Emery and Estabrook Parks.

1:02:50And just to give you an overview of

1:02:51what's taking place at these parks. At

1:02:54Emery Park, the tunnel is being

1:02:55constructed at the north end of the

1:02:57park. It's 70 ft below the surface, and

1:03:01park operations will not be affected

1:03:03other than contractor occupations of

1:03:06portions of the park green space. And

1:03:08the contractor is going to provide

1:03:10acoustic fencing around the work area to

1:03:12reduce impact on park users and

1:03:14residents.

1:03:15Um

1:03:16I also want to note future permanent

1:03:18easements will be needed at Emery Park

1:03:20for a future CSO project known as

1:03:23BCSO3.

1:03:25Um, this project will begin immediately

1:03:27after the Big Creek Tunnel is

1:03:28constructed, um, which is expected to

1:03:32uh, the BCSO3 is expected to start in

1:03:342029 and be completed by 2031,

1:03:37at which time, um, the Sewer District

1:03:39will coordinate with Parks and Rec on

1:03:42park restoration.

1:03:43At Estabrook Park, the Sewer District is

1:03:46constructing a tunnel shaft at the

1:03:47northwest corner of the park 50 ft below

1:03:49ground. Um, again, park operations won't

1:03:52be affected other than a temporary

1:03:54relocation of the path to the playground

1:03:57and ball field. And similar to at Emery

1:04:00Park, the contractor will provide a

1:04:01crystal acoustical fencing around the

1:04:03work area and coordinate with Parks and

1:04:06Rec on restoration of the site at the

1:04:08conclusion of the of the project.

1:04:10Um, so the easements that are being

1:04:13requested, um, the value of the

1:04:16easements at Emery Park is $220,400.

1:04:20And the Sewer District has agreed to

1:04:22increase its site restoration budget by

1:04:25$450,000,

1:04:27which totals $670,400,

1:04:31um,

1:04:31which will cover the city's costs to

1:04:33install future improvements at the park.

1:04:35And these funds will be deposited into a

1:04:38newly created fund and will be used

1:04:39solely for permits at Emery Park.

1:04:42And the value of the easements at

1:04:43Estabrook Park is $56,400.

1:04:48And, um, again, this these funds will be

1:04:51deposited into an account to be used

1:04:53solely for permits at uh, Estabrook

1:04:56Park.

1:04:57And the Sewer District

1:04:59uh, um, we're any of us can answer any

1:05:01questions that you might have.

1:05:02>> Thank you. Any remarks from the Sewer

1:05:04District?

1:05:06>> No, I think that covers it, Mr.

1:05:08Chairman.

1:05:08>> Okay, thank you. Uh, are the council

1:05:10members of that area and support

1:05:14Councilman Harsh and Councilman Cazy.

1:05:17>> This is Esther Brook in Emery Park.

1:05:19>> Uh Mr. Chairman, it's Councilwoman

1:05:21Hudson and uh Councilman Hazy. It It

1:05:23switched to that to Brook. Okay. Um

1:05:25Councilman Hudson is in support. We've

1:05:27gone back and forth with Councilman

1:05:29Cazy. I believe with the modifications

1:05:31and the amendments that we have that

1:05:33he's now in support, but if you could

1:05:34speak to that, Councilman.

1:05:35>> Yeah, with the amendments. We've been

1:05:37working on this. I've been working with

1:05:42everybody. Uh NOACA, FirstEnergy, CPP,

1:05:46MoCaP, uh everybody for for quite a

1:05:49while now in regards to this. I'm not a

1:05:51happy camper, but I'm not going to hold

1:05:54it up any longer. I believe we've come

1:05:56to a happy medium when it comes to the

1:05:59restoration of the park and the pole

1:06:01situation.

1:06:02Uh they're taking the park for anywhere

1:06:04from

1:06:054 to 7 years or the majority of it. So,

1:06:08it's a it's a big deal uh for Emery

1:06:11Park, but I think we've we've

1:06:14ironed out the kinks and and I'm ready

1:06:16to move it forward.

1:06:18>> Thank you.

1:06:18>> And

1:06:19Mr. Chairman

1:06:20>> Councilman Harsh

1:06:21>> to chime in. Uh when I did represent

1:06:23Esther Brook all of 8 months ago, uh

1:06:25we've been in constant communication

1:06:26about this project and there had been

1:06:28some pre-testing work done over there.

1:06:30Uh uh Councilwoman Hudson and I were

1:06:33both apprised of everything. I was

1:06:34supportive. I believe she is as well.

1:06:37>> All right, thank you. Uh

1:06:39any other questions? Seeing no other

1:06:41questions, ordinance number 688-2026

1:06:44as amended stands approved. Thank you.

1:06:56Uh sewer district, just uh a second

1:06:59uh secondary question.

1:07:00>> Yes.

1:07:01>> So, if Cleveland Heights or Shaker says

1:07:05we'll get back to you

1:07:07and you guys decide to move, then we

1:07:09just still at risk for that dam or what?

1:07:13>> Uh

1:07:14Council President

1:07:15>> This is regarding the letter that we

1:07:16received from you guys. Just want to

1:07:18make sure I understand that.

1:07:19>> Yes, Council President. What we uh

1:07:21shared with both cities is that once

1:07:24they do their due diligence, we will

1:07:25have a conversation and kind of discuss

1:07:28where they would be back in the uh list

1:07:30of projects that we are going to uh

1:07:32proceed forward with. So,

1:07:35answer to your question in the meantime,

1:07:37yes, that effort of of a solution for

1:07:40that area will be postponed.

1:07:42>> So,

1:07:43that dam is still an imminent threat.

1:07:47>> Mhm.

1:07:48>> Correct.

1:07:49>> Mr. Chairman, I got

1:07:50>> But it's been an imminent threat for how

1:07:51long? Since 1979?

1:07:54>> Correct.

1:07:54>> Okay, so at some point in time we need

1:07:56to know because it seems like if

1:07:59Cleveland Heights and Shaker just says,

1:08:01"Hey, we're not going to fix the dam or

1:08:02we're not going to pay the bill." I

1:08:03think 55 million you know, whatever you

1:08:05guys had out there, that basically

1:08:08they're going to say we'll risk the the

1:08:10the that dam fails and then everything

1:08:13downhill in those flood plains will be a

1:08:16problem.

1:08:17>> Correct, Council President. We have made

1:08:19that very clear to both cities and we

1:08:23expect that the conversation is moving

1:08:25forward. However, uh we have to be

1:08:28responsive to our ratepayers and the

1:08:30list of all the other projects we have

1:08:32in our area, in which we have $1.4

1:08:34billion worth of projects scheduled in

1:08:37our stormwater utility.

1:08:39And so, we have um made that urgency

1:08:43loud and clear. Um and we know that

1:08:46there have been some members from the

1:08:48city of Cleveland, uh as well as some

1:08:51council folks here that have begun to

1:08:53have those conversations with the other

1:08:56two cities.

1:08:58And so, hopefully um those conversations

1:09:00will be productive.

1:09:01>> Well, I'll be talking with the

1:09:02administration because at some point in

1:09:05time, I want to know who's going to be

1:09:06liable if we have a matter a major

1:09:08catastrophic

1:09:09>> Mr. Chairman,

1:09:10>> because of that, okay? So, we'll have

1:09:12that conversation.

1:09:14Uh our Councilman Conwell, I'm going to

1:09:15allow you because I know this affects

1:09:17your area, but we'll probably need to

1:09:19bring in uh between utilities and plus

1:09:21the council members that are affected by

1:09:23this to really probably set up something

1:09:25with uh those two cities and the sewer

1:09:27district because I don't think anybody

1:09:29is really

1:09:30um taking seriously the threat that our

1:09:32neighborhoods have regarding this. But,

1:09:34Councilman Conwell, proceed.

1:09:35>> Mr. Chairman, I have a question.

1:09:36>> Let him have it.

1:09:38He's got it. He's got a question.

1:09:39I yield.

1:09:41>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, to Mr. Conwell.

1:09:43It

1:09:43I was looking at looking for it over

1:09:45here, so it's not on here, but um and I

1:09:48know it's been

1:09:49bypassed to come to the committee. I had

1:09:51a question earlier that wasn't asked

1:09:54wasn't answered, and it was

1:09:57you know, um

1:09:59impact with our community and areas well

1:10:01in terms of the release of methane gas

1:10:03and the breaking of the shell. That's

1:10:05this particular project. Is that

1:10:06correct, Mr. Chairman, to Mrs. Jones?

1:10:09>> That's correct.

1:10:10Um

1:10:12>> It It fits the

1:10:13>> If we could, I know that I started this.

1:10:15I want you to answer Councilman Jones'

1:10:17question, but I think it would be better

1:10:19for us to actually have some kind of

1:10:21hearing and work with uh Councilman Kazy

1:10:24as well as um all the council members

1:10:27affecting that uh being affected by that

1:10:29area so that we can have a full hearing

1:10:31on that. But, if you can answer

1:10:32Councilman Jones' question and then

1:10:34we'll reset this to have that

1:10:35discussion.

1:10:36>> And I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman, cuz

1:10:37I have family that live in that area.

1:10:39>> Okay.

1:10:39>> And the the question is um

1:10:43the impact of methane gas um

1:10:46in terms of the health of the citizens.

1:10:48Um do we know if this and how and has it

1:10:52and would it be a hazard and how we

1:10:56will determine to how we deal with this

1:10:58because there was so much Mr. Chairman

1:11:00that was released in our community. Um

1:11:03right into the air, right into the

1:11:04public and they did not have any idea or

1:11:06clue that this was happening.

1:11:07>> If you could.

1:11:08>> Yeah, Mr. Chairman to the councilman, um

1:11:10you know, we did look at that. That was

1:11:11from the Mill Creek tunnel uh I believe

1:11:13in your ward. I did provide a response

1:11:15to uh the council. I'm not sure if it

1:11:18got to you or not yet, but that

1:11:19methodology was a little bit older in

1:11:22the 1990s and early 2000s where the the

1:11:25rock and the shell would have been

1:11:26exposed to release that methane into the

1:11:28tunnel and then it had to be vented. In

1:11:31the new project and the new way that we

1:11:32tunnel, uh we actually build the

1:11:34concrete liner right behind the tunnel

1:11:36boring machine and then seal that area

1:11:39up with grout so that that um methane

1:11:42gas can't escape into the tunnel for

1:11:44worker safety as well as community

1:11:46safety. Uh so we don't feel that this

1:11:48tunnel will have an issue with the

1:11:50methane gas. The contractor's always

1:11:52responsible with their safety plan to

1:11:53monitor that for their own safety, but

1:11:56we don't feel it'll be a problem with

1:11:57today's uh tunneling methods going

1:11:59forward.

1:12:00>> Mr. DeGenaro.

1:12:01>> Yeah, thank you Council President. Just

1:12:02wanted to know we did send that

1:12:03information to council staff last week.

1:12:06So we were happy to resend it if you

1:12:07like.

1:12:07>> Okay, thank you. So if you make sure we

1:12:09have that.

1:12:09>> Uh and with that being said, if it was

1:12:11released Mr. Chairman, if it did get

1:12:13out, if there was a mistake, how would

1:12:15it impact the health of the citizens?

1:12:18>> Yeah, I

1:12:19I think the the method or the amount of

1:12:21gas that would be released would be very

1:12:23manageable by the contractor. We have

1:12:25not had that issue with any other tunnel

1:12:27um in the last six that we've built. Um

1:12:31I know you're referring to the Mill

1:12:32Creek days where it was drilled from the

1:12:34surface to vent that up into uh

1:12:37the atmosphere. Um that method would not

1:12:40be used today's day and age because of

1:12:42the tunneling method.

1:12:43>> No further questions. Thank you, Mr.

1:12:44Chairman.

1:12:45>> Councilman Conwell.

1:12:46>> You know, um CP, I had a uh

1:12:49meeting with uh Matt Carroll. Matt

1:12:51Carroll is over there now as chief of

1:12:53staff for uh uh

1:12:55Shaker

1:12:56um municipalities.

1:12:58And we sit down and we discussed the

1:13:00issue and they said there is two lakes,

1:13:03of course, the upper lake and the lower

1:13:05lake. Through the chair, they said

1:13:06they're working with you guys

1:13:09on the upper lake right now. Is that

1:13:11correct?

1:13:12>> That's correct.

1:13:13>> All right, and it's going to cost them,

1:13:14I think, uh $7 million.

1:13:17And the lower level

1:13:20I plan to go back to talk with the mayor

1:13:23to uh meet with him about that as well.

1:13:25And I reached out to you, Angela Jones,

1:13:28after I talked with him. I think it was

1:13:29on a Friday.

1:13:31And I never got a chance to talk with

1:13:33you about it, um CP.

1:13:35>> Okay.

1:13:37We need to make sure we follow up with

1:13:38that.

1:13:38>> Yeah, and then we'll do a discussion on

1:13:39that one.

1:13:40>> We'll we'll make some We'll get on your

1:13:42schedule and try to coordinate a a full

1:13:44meeting to give you the count the

1:13:46council a full briefing for that.

1:13:48>> Mhm. It's It's It's a It's

1:13:52It's definitely a threat, man.

1:13:54>> [sighs]

1:13:54>> It's a threat. He and I we The our next

1:13:56meeting will be at the lakes. We're

1:13:58going to walk around the lakes and I'll

1:13:59tell you about it and then we'll

1:14:00coordinate it together to see what's

1:14:02what cuz our residents need to know.

1:14:04>> Okay.

1:14:05>> Mhm.

1:14:06>> All right. Thank you. Appreciate you

1:14:07guys.

1:14:07>> Thank you very

1:14:08>> All right. We're going to move to public

1:14:09utilities.

1:14:11Councilman King.

1:14:13Ordinance number 1037-2026.

1:14:16>> It used to be. He got the councilman

1:14:18look on today.

1:14:19>> director, chief, councilman. He's the

1:14:21manager and the supervisor.

1:14:24>> First

1:14:25>> [laughter]

1:14:25>> He got a

1:14:25>> Ordinance number 1037-2026

1:14:29as amended by council member Kazy,

1:14:31Bishop, and Griffin by department

1:14:33request an emergency ordinance to amend

1:14:35section 129.22

1:14:37of the codified ordinances of Cleveland,

1:14:39Ohio, 1976 as amended by ordinance

1:14:44number 1548-84

1:14:47passed October 8th, 1984 relating to

1:14:50easement acquisition. And once again,

1:14:52this is ordinance number 1037-2026

1:14:56as amended. Director.

1:14:57>> Thank you, Chairman, members of the

1:14:58committee. The codified ordinance

1:15:00section 129.22 puts a cap on the amount

1:15:03the director of public utilities can pay

1:15:05for an easement. As council's well

1:15:06aware, easements are necessary in any

1:15:09underground utility in order for us to

1:15:11make sure that we still have access and

1:15:13the ability to fix it when it breaks.

1:15:15We're asking that that cap be removed.

1:15:17>> Okay. And I want to make sure that I

1:15:19read the amendment. There's no legal

1:15:21objection to this legislation if amended

1:15:23as follows. One, in section one, at

1:15:25amended section 129.22,

1:15:28last line, strike as determined by the

1:15:30Board of Control. Dated 10/8/26, signed

1:15:34by Nicholas Delaney, Assistant Director

1:15:36of Law.

1:15:38All right.

1:15:39Councilman Cazy, this was heard in

1:15:42utilities?

1:15:43>> Duly vetted and recommended for passage.

1:15:45>> Councilman Bishop, this was heard in

1:15:46MSP.

1:15:48>> Uh yes, duly vetted and recommended for

1:15:50passage.

1:15:51>> Thank you. Do we have any questions

1:15:52regarding ordinance number 1037-2026

1:15:56as amended?

1:15:57Seeing no questions, ordinance number

1:16:001037-2026

1:16:02as amended stands approved. Please sign

1:16:04on.

1:16:06Next number is ordinance number

1:16:071135-2026

1:16:09by Councilmembers Cazy and Griffin. By

1:16:11departmental request, an emergency

1:16:13ordinance authorizing the Director of

1:16:15Public Utilities to enter into one or

1:16:16more concession agreements for the

1:16:18operation of a first-class food and

1:16:21beverage service at the Carl Stokes B.

1:16:25Stokes Public Utilities Building for a

1:16:27period of two years with two one-year

1:16:30options to renew, exercisable by the

1:16:32Director of Public Utilities. Director.

1:16:34>> Thank you, Chairman. We do have a uh

1:16:38a cafeteria at the Department of Public

1:16:40Utilities at 1201 Lakeside. It is small.

1:16:42It is hard to find a vendor, but we're

1:16:44going to continue to look. Our employees

1:16:48and visitors um

1:16:50deserve uh high-class food options. So,

1:16:53asking for authority to go back out to

1:16:55bid and find a concessioner for our

1:16:57cafeteria.

1:16:58>> Thank you. Uh

1:17:00Councilman Cazy, this was heard in

1:17:02Public Utilities.

1:17:03>> As long as they find a first-class food

1:17:05and beverage provider,

1:17:08we'll be good. So, recommend it for

1:17:09passage.

1:17:10>> Thank you. Seeing no other questions,

1:17:12ordinance number 1135-2026

1:17:14stands approved. Please sign on.

1:17:17Next up is ordinance number 1038-2026

1:17:20by Councilwoman Cazy and Griffin. By

1:17:22departmental request, an emergency

1:17:23ordinance authorizing the purchase by

1:17:25one or more requirement contracts of

1:17:27various types of electrical test

1:17:29equipment and labor and materials

1:17:31necessary to maintain and repair

1:17:33electrical test equipment, including

1:17:35training when necessary for the division

1:17:38of Cleveland Public Power, Department of

1:17:40Public Utilities for period of 2 years.

1:17:44Director.

1:17:44>> Thank you, Chairman. A recurring piece

1:17:46of legislation every 2 years

1:17:47approximately to um to test the

1:17:50equipment at Cleveland Public Power.

1:17:52This would include high-voltage cable

1:17:53test sets, meter test equipment,

1:17:55transformer test, relay test equipment

1:17:58in order to one, ensure that the um

1:18:01that our equipment is properly

1:18:03maintained, and then two, make sure that

1:18:05our employees are working in a safe the

1:18:07safest manner we can. So, this equipment

1:18:09is critical to the delivery of power to

1:18:11our customers.

1:18:13>> Thank you.

1:18:14Uh Councilman Cazy.

1:18:16>> Duly vetted, recommended for passage.

1:18:18>> Thank you. Seeing no other questions,

1:18:20ordinance number 1038-2026

1:18:22stands approved. Thank you.

1:18:23>> Thank you, Chairman.

1:18:30>> Next up, we have ordinance number uh

1:18:32this is Public Works. Ordinance number

1:18:341137-2026

1:18:36by Councilmembers Bishop and Griffin. By

1:18:38departmental request, an emergency

1:18:40ordinance authorizing the purchase by

1:18:41one or more standard and requirement

1:18:44contracts for the purchase, lease, or

1:18:46lease with options to purchase of

1:18:49various on-road vehicles, apparatus, and

1:18:52off-road equipment, cabs, bodies, and

1:18:55accessories, equipment, and other

1:18:56aftermarket items necessary to equip the

1:18:59vehicles authorized for their intended

1:19:01purposes, including vehicle

1:19:03rehabilitation, training, and

1:19:06inspections as needed for the Department

1:19:08of Public Works director.

1:19:11>> Uh good afternoon, chair. Good

1:19:12afternoon, committee. I'm Patrick Dugan,

1:19:13assistant director of Public Works. I'm

1:19:15here with Commissioner Brown from MVM.

1:19:17And this past this uh legislation or

1:19:19ordinance, sorry, is for uh replacement

1:19:22of vehicles for utility uh using

1:19:24enterprise.

1:19:26Uh Commissioner?

1:19:27>> If this uh to the uh

1:19:29council, to the chair. Uh this is a the

1:19:32yearly ask for the Department of Public

1:19:35Utilities Enterprise funds for

1:19:36replacement vehicles for their fleet.

1:19:38>> Thank you. I know this was heard in MSP.

1:19:41Uh Councilman Bishop?

1:19:44>> Uh yes, Mr. uh President. Do we

1:19:46recommend it for pass?

1:19:47>> Thank you. Uh do we have uh the actual

1:19:51vehicles that are going to be purchased?

1:19:54>> To the chair, the uh included with the

1:19:57uh legislation is there a there's a list

1:20:00of vehicles for Department of Public uh

1:20:02uh

1:20:04Division of Water,

1:20:06WPC, and CPP.

1:20:08>> Uh CPP? Councilman Kazy, help me out.

1:20:12>> Mr. Chairman, we asked for uh a

1:20:14Municipal Services and Property a list

1:20:17an extensive list of the fleet for DPU.

1:20:21Mr. Chairman, to the Commissioner, have

1:20:22you guys sent that over yet?

1:20:24>> Uh Mike's crew is working on that now.

1:20:26It's uh a large list, and you asked to

1:20:29have uh

1:20:30uh,

1:20:31uh

1:20:32assigned to it. So, it's going to take

1:20:34me a couple of days to prepare that. We

1:20:36are in a process of preparing that and

1:20:37sending that over.

1:20:38>> Okay.

1:20:40And I'm glad that you mentioned that,

1:20:41Councilman Casey, because I'm and I and

1:20:43Councilman Casey, I don't know the

1:20:44proper name for it and I wish Council,

1:20:46uh, Director King was here. But, what

1:20:48are those trucks

1:20:50that help when we ever have electrical

1:20:53outages?

1:20:54>> The bucket truck. The bucket truck.

1:20:55>> trucks.

1:20:56>> Yeah.

1:20:56>> Are we trying to replace those cuz I've

1:20:58been hearing nightmare stories? You know

1:20:59these workers talk and they've been

1:21:01telling us that they have a severe

1:21:04shortage of bucket trucks and that they

1:21:06don't have the proper equipment when we

1:21:08have some of these power outages that

1:21:09it's like literally either always broke

1:21:12down because the lift is always broke or

1:21:15they have like one east and one west

1:21:17which is insufficient and we always are

1:21:19forced to bring in contractors.

1:21:21>> To the to the chairman, uh,

1:21:23the there are several large bucket

1:21:26trucks on order right now and there are

1:21:29bucket trucks included in this

1:21:30legislation. The the issue is that uh,

1:21:34industry, the bucket truck industry,

1:21:36there's like a three-year

1:21:38uh, lead time on those vehicles. So, we

1:21:41have them on order. We have not received

1:21:42them yet because the whole industry is

1:21:44has a three-year backlog.

1:21:46>> And what is the deal that I keep hearing

1:21:48that they are easy to break and people

1:21:50break them all the time?

1:21:53>> To the chair, I cannot uh, I'm

1:21:55not aware of that. Uh, motor vehicle

1:21:57maintenance does not uh, repair the

1:22:00Clayton Public Power fleet. They have

1:22:02their own maintenance people, but we do

1:22:04assist them with uh, any accidents and

1:22:07any uh, major collision damage.

1:22:09>> Okay. All right.

1:22:11Go ahead, Councilman.

1:22:11>> There's There's five five bucket trucks

1:22:13in the request they asked for this year.

1:22:16Um, 250 or 250, 260 and 170-ft bucket

1:22:21truck, which are the trucks that that

1:22:22you're referring to. Um,

1:22:25the issue now that we're hearing is that

1:22:26if if we pass this legislation, it's

1:22:29going to be 3 years prior until we can

1:22:32can get those trucks.

1:22:34>> To a maximum of 3 years. We have been

1:22:35working with the the major suppliers of

1:22:38those to try to get places in put in

1:22:40place with the anticipation of this

1:22:43order.

1:22:43>> All right. I'm looking forward to

1:22:44getting the information about the the

1:22:46fleet of the DPU vehicles.

1:22:48>> Thank you. And please share that with

1:22:49all of us when you get it.

1:22:51>> We sure will.

1:22:51>> Okay, that's great. Uh Councilman

1:22:53Michael Polensek.

1:22:54>> Thank you.

1:22:55Thank you, Mr. Chairman, my honorable

1:22:56colleagues, to the commissioner. Um

1:23:00The The question is this, and I I guess

1:23:03it goes into everything we've been

1:23:04dealing with at the table here.

1:23:06Um

1:23:08what is the general

1:23:10What is the general condition of the of

1:23:13the entire fleet for Cleveland Public

1:23:14Power?

1:23:15>> [snorts]

1:23:16>> Through the chair to the Councilman,

1:23:18uh

1:23:20for Cleveland Public Power, that they

1:23:22have a a large number of vehicles are in

1:23:27fair to poor condition, which the over

1:23:29the last 2 years the ordinances that

1:23:32have been passed is addressing that.

1:23:34Unfortunately, the units that need to be

1:23:36replaced the the the most are the units

1:23:39that are have the highest backlog on it.

1:23:41So, that we have the backlog, it affects

1:23:44tree trimming trucks, it affects bucket

1:23:46trucks, and it affects digger Derrick

1:23:48trucks. Those are the ones that are it

1:23:50just industry-wise are very hard to get,

1:23:51though. What you'll see in this

1:23:53ordinance is that there's a large number

1:23:55that are being replaced because of the

1:23:58length of time it takes to get them.

1:24:00>> Okay. So, that brings me to my next

1:24:02question. If we know, cuz we heard the

1:24:05same thing about fire apparatus, the

1:24:07length of time it takes to get a hook

1:24:09and ladder or pumper. So, then that ties

1:24:12me in to what

1:24:14all of us need to do with our own

1:24:16vehicles.

1:24:18Um cuz I know I'm getting a a truck

1:24:20fixed right now.

1:24:21Is that What what are we doing to stay

1:24:25ahead of the curve on maintenance and

1:24:27repair? If it's taking us this If it

1:24:30takes us this long to get equipment,

1:24:33then what are we doing either through

1:24:35MVM

1:24:37or through utilities? Cuz when you just

1:24:39tell tell us that they got a bunch of

1:24:41vehicles that are very poor

1:24:44condition.

1:24:45Um

1:24:47we know there's wear and tear on

1:24:48vehicles. That's a given.

1:24:50That's just the nature of the beast that

1:24:52we're dealing with. But what are we

1:24:54doing to to repair and stay on top

1:24:58of maintenance? It's you know

1:25:01it's what what my grandfather When my

1:25:03one grandfather was a mechanic,

1:25:05um

1:25:07he constantly drilled, "Got to change

1:25:08oil. Got to change oil. Got to change

1:25:10your fluids." I I I heard that so many

1:25:12times. And I I still do it to this day.

1:25:15Um in fact, I change my oil on my truck

1:25:18every 3,000 mi.

1:25:20Um

1:25:21and that's I think it's why it's lasted

1:25:2215 years.

1:25:24Um

1:25:25but

1:25:26what can you tell us or how can you

1:25:28assure us

1:25:30that MVM and utilities

1:25:34are doing what they need to do to our

1:25:35vehicles, to maintain our vehicles, so

1:25:37we don't So if So if it takes time to

1:25:40get them, that we're not without

1:25:43critical vehicles? Cuz I know there are

1:25:45companies around that fix vehicles.

1:25:49Private vendors.

1:25:50Okay. Floor is yours.

1:25:53>> Uh through the chair, to the councilman.

1:25:54So, as obviously as vehicles get older,

1:25:57they require more maintenance. We have

1:25:59been working with Cleveland Public Power

1:26:00to increase the level of maintenance

1:26:02that they are already are performing on

1:26:04those vehicles. Uh

1:26:05again,

1:26:07uh as you increase that level of

1:26:08maintenance, it increases your your

1:26:10maintenance budget. So, uh typically,

1:26:13you know, at when a vehicle reaches its

1:26:15certain life cycle life cycle cost, you

1:26:18would not continue to put additional

1:26:20money into that. But, with the situation

1:26:22that they have with Cleveland Public

1:26:24Power, we are putting that money and

1:26:26Cleveland Public Power is putting that

1:26:27money out of their operating budget to

1:26:30maintain those vehicles and and do the

1:26:32increased level of maintenance that they

1:26:34are required to do to keep those units

1:26:36on the road in a safe condition.

1:26:39>> Okay, because again,

1:26:41what you're telling us is correct and I

1:26:42don't question your capability. But, if

1:26:45it's taking us You said 3 years?

1:26:47>> Up to 3 years, depending on the specific

1:26:50unit.

1:26:50>> Okay, well, then we got up maintenance.

1:26:52We know we have to put more maintenance.

1:26:53I just had to put a starter on my truck.

1:26:55I didn't like doing it, but it was 15

1:26:56years old.

1:26:58You know, especially when I got the bill

1:26:59for it, okay? But, if I didn't put the

1:27:02starter on, it wasn't going to run.

1:27:04So, all I'm saying is that I'm hoping

1:27:07that we're really And this is something

1:27:09as we go into the budget hearing, cuz I

1:27:11got a bunch of questions on budget.

1:27:13Believe me what I tell you. About

1:27:15maintenance and repair, whether be um

1:27:18parks and recreation and city building.

1:27:22We have got to really focus on

1:27:24maintenance, repair, the things that are

1:27:27critical that every citizen who's

1:27:29watching this at home

1:27:31has to do within their own home

1:27:34or their own with their own vehicles.

1:27:36We've got to step it up because I don't

1:27:38have to tell you what a new what a new

1:27:40car costs or new truck costs. You knows

1:27:43you know better. What what is a What is

1:27:45a bucket truck cost?

1:27:46>> Uh a a 65-70 ft bucket is going to be

1:27:49somewhere in the neighborhood of

1:27:51uh

1:27:52$260,000

1:27:54to $275,000.

1:27:55>> Cha-ching. Okay. So, it tells me we got

1:27:59to figure out how to maintain our fleet

1:28:01better, so it lasts longer. And then

1:28:04when we do bring in new vehicles, we

1:28:06have backup vehicles then in cases of

1:28:08emergency. So, okay, I'll I rest my

1:28:11case, Mr. Chairman, but you know, some

1:28:13of the questions I'm going to ask when

1:28:14we get into the budget hearings.

1:28:16We got to get back to some common sense

1:28:18around here. Thank you very much.

1:28:20>> Thank you.

1:28:21Uh any other questions regarding

1:28:23ordinance number 1137-2026?

1:28:26Seeing no other questions, ordinance

1:28:27number 1137-

1:28:30Seeing no other questions, ordinance

1:28:31number 1137-2026

1:28:34stands approved. Please sign off. Thank

1:28:36you.

1:28:36>> Thank you, Council.

1:28:37Community Development.

1:28:47Ordinance number 1031-2026

1:28:50as amended by Council member Santana and

1:28:52Griffin by departmental request. An

1:28:53emergency ordinance authorizing the

1:28:55directors of Community Development

1:28:56and/or Finance as appropriate to enter

1:28:59into one or more agreements with the

1:29:01Legal Aid Society as the lead partner

1:29:03organization to implement a program to

1:29:05provide access to legal services for

1:29:07covered individuals

1:29:09in eviction proceedings under section

1:29:12375.12

1:29:14of the codified ordinances of Cleveland,

1:29:16Ohio 1976

1:29:18legal representation in Housing Court.

1:29:21And the amendment states as follows,

1:29:23there is no legal objection to this

1:29:25legislation if amended as follows. One,

1:29:27in section three, strike line two in its

1:29:30entirety and insert the following. Uh

1:29:33in quotations, one million 250,000

1:29:37and shall be paid from fund funds number

1:29:4001-8006-6320

1:29:44and fund number 10 SF400.

1:29:47RQS 8006

1:29:50and RL 2026-20-58.

1:29:54This was dated 10 6 26, signed by George

1:29:58Peters, Assistant Director of Law. Uh

1:30:00Director.

1:30:02>> Good afternoon. Thank you to the

1:30:03committee. Um I am here today with my

1:30:05Assistant Director Andrew Kuntz. Um we

1:30:08are speaking on behalf of the uh Legal

1:30:12Aid Society of Greater Cleveland and

1:30:14their work uh providing legal services

1:30:16for low-income tenants facing housing

1:30:18instability and eviction. Uh the

1:30:21department uh will contract with Legal

1:30:23Aid to continue what's known as the

1:30:25right to counsel program for $1.25

1:30:27million.

1:30:30>> Okay, uh we'll go into uh questions. Uh

1:30:35However, Councilwoman Santana, before I

1:30:36go any line of questions, uh this was

1:30:38heard in DPS.

1:30:39>> Yes, it was heard in DPS. I think is

1:30:41there amendment?

1:30:43>> I did read it.

1:30:44>> Oh, you did. Okay, yeah.

1:30:45Um and recommended for passage. But this

1:30:47goes back to the general budget here in

1:30:48February. So, just to reiterate that.

1:30:50>> So, it goes back to the general budget.

1:30:52I want to remind everybody that this is

1:30:53actually a program that council

1:30:55committed um at council actually created

1:30:58uh because a lot of tenants, especially

1:30:59when COVID hit, uh did not have

1:31:02representation.

1:31:04Um and we found out that there was a a

1:31:07heavy likelihood when they went into

1:31:09housing court without representation, a

1:31:12lot of these tenants would actually get

1:31:15um evicts evicted. So, Legal Aid has

1:31:17worked in order to try to do that. And I

1:31:19know that they gave numbers last week,

1:31:21but they have um made a a tremendous

1:31:24impact on uh preventing people from uh

1:31:27being uh evicted. So, just wanted to

1:31:30make sure everybody knows that, okay?

1:31:31Yeah. All right.

1:31:32>> It did include um Councilman Joe Jones

1:31:34is asking that if his numbers were

1:31:36included and one was included in that

1:31:39breakdown.

1:31:39>> I I don't have it.

1:31:41>> Councilman uh to the councilman through

1:31:43the chair, I did uh send that to you in

1:31:45an email on Friday.

1:31:46>> Um this Friday?

1:31:47>> Yes.

1:31:48>> All right, so I haven't had a chance to

1:31:49view it. Do you know the numbers?

1:31:51>> Uh I can tell you that there were 5,370

1:31:54eviction cases. I don't have the number

1:31:57for Ward 1 in specific. Uh but that's

1:32:00about 18,940

1:32:02residents.

1:32:04>> It's about how many?

1:32:05>> 18,940

1:32:07residents who were assisted assisted by

1:32:09this program, yes.

1:32:11>> And Mr. Chairman, um to um Director

1:32:15Tate, um you're saying that 5,370

1:32:18cases came from Ward 1?

1:32:20>> I'm saying that that is the total number

1:32:22of cases. I don't have individual ward

1:32:25numbers uh here in front of

1:32:27>> so then what's the 18,900

1:32:29Mr.

1:32:30>> Can I get you the number?

1:32:32Uh the number is and we could uh make

1:32:34sure that it is is forwarded to you. In

1:32:36Ward 1 in 2024,

1:32:40there were 355 cases. In 2025,

1:32:45there were 373

1:32:47cases that were heard by Right to

1:32:49Counsel and Legal Aid.

1:32:51>> Okay, so

1:32:51>> And if I'm looking, that is the highest

1:32:56rate

1:32:57per in the entire city. So you had more

1:33:00Oh, no, I apologize. Ward 7 and Ward 8

1:33:03actually had the highest number of cases

1:33:06that were in 10.

1:33:08>> So let me ask for clarification, Mr.

1:33:10Chairman, cuz I don't have those

1:33:11numbers.

1:33:12Um 355 in '24, 373

1:33:16in in 2025. So then the question would

1:33:20be how many of those cases

1:33:22uh was actually

1:33:24followed through with? Or or were are

1:33:26these are just people who came and said,

1:33:27"Hey, I want this service." And then

1:33:30>> are Councilman, these are eviction

1:33:31filings.

1:33:32>> Oh, so these are all evictions?

1:33:34>> who were um who were served.

1:33:37>> Thank you.

1:33:38Um last week, Mr. Chairman, I testified

1:33:40about a group of folks who were being

1:33:42evicted out of their homes. And we I

1:33:45tried to get service from Legal Aid.

1:33:48What was uh harrowing for me, Mr.

1:33:50Chairman, to the director was going into

1:33:52these people's homes. Some of them were

1:33:54dying. They were on their sick beds.

1:33:56Some of them had cancer. Uh some of them

1:33:58had families and we were trying to get

1:34:01anyone and anybody that could get any

1:34:03assistance from legal aid. And Mr.

1:34:05Chairman, um this was something that

1:34:07really impacted us gravely. Uh actually

1:34:10in April of this year, uh we even had

1:34:13the Harvard Community Service Center um

1:34:15uh Mr. um Uh Mr. Chairman, as you know,

1:34:18Mrs. Elaine Goldstein, she can testify

1:34:21to this.

1:34:22Um and we just couldn't get any

1:34:23assistance. I even had to Mr. Chairman,

1:34:25what made me kind of angry and I didn't

1:34:27mean to

1:34:28to to have such passion, but when you

1:34:31are helping people and your heart is to

1:34:33help people and then we have this

1:34:35program which we are giving them an

1:34:36additional 500,000 or is it 550,000

1:34:40increase into their program?

1:34:41>> 500,000, sir.

1:34:42>> Mhm. And then not being able to get Mr.

1:34:45Chairman, going to their offices not one

1:34:47time. I went on three separate occasions

1:34:50and couldn't reach anyone. And so,

1:34:52that's with going to the office and

1:34:55leaving my card, Mr. Chairman, to try to

1:34:57get assistance and help for those people

1:34:59and it still fell on deaf ears. So, I

1:35:01don't know what happened if there was a

1:35:02breakdown at that particular period of

1:35:04time or they didn't have any employees

1:35:06available to assist and help, but my

1:35:09next line of questioning, Mr. Chairman,

1:35:10to the director is if, you know, I need

1:35:14legal assistance for an eviction, um

1:35:17what is what my income have to be in

1:35:19order to qualify to get legal

1:35:20assistance?

1:35:21>> Um to be honest, I don't actually know

1:35:24that I believe they have a uh cut off

1:35:27based on um

1:35:29poverty level.

1:35:33But I don't I don't have that answer. I

1:35:34can get it for you.

1:35:35>> And and and the reason why I asked, Mr.

1:35:37Chairman, was because all these people

1:35:38were poor people. And you know, I I

1:35:41constantly from time to time over the

1:35:43years, Mr. Chairman, to the director,

1:35:46I've had a hard time trying to get into

1:35:47this program for whatever reasons. And

1:35:50I'm going to probably need your help or

1:35:52some kind of influence, you know, um

1:35:54through your department to assist us.

1:35:56And I don't know who I could talk to

1:35:58because I do have a lot of people on a

1:36:00on a number of occasions who needed

1:36:01legal assistance. And it's like shooting

1:36:04in a dark. So, I don't I don't know how

1:36:06these people got through, but a sitting

1:36:08elected official went down there, made

1:36:11all the phone calls, went not once, not

1:36:14twice, but three times, and still

1:36:15couldn't get any assistance for my

1:36:16people. So, I I want to know how I can

1:36:19improve that somehow. I don't know what

1:36:21it is. I don't know if it's what that

1:36:22situation is. I I'm not going to even

1:36:24sit here and kind of imagine what it

1:36:26might have been. But, what I'm sharing

1:36:28with you, Mr. Chairman, and what I'm

1:36:29sharing with the committee here, an

1:36:31elected official went down there three

1:36:32times, made several phone calls, and

1:36:36unable to get assistance for his people

1:36:38on several attempts. And Mr. Chairman,

1:36:40we had a community meeting about it. We

1:36:43had We had our people who who were

1:36:45there. We even invited them to come to

1:36:47the session. And And And no avail. So,

1:36:51with that being said, uh if it if the

1:36:53director could tell me what that income

1:36:55is, that would be great cuz I'm not

1:36:57sure. At first, I'm thinking, Mr.

1:36:58Chairman, maybe our people make too much

1:37:01money. Maybe you have to make like

1:37:03$10,000 a year in order to qualify. I'm

1:37:05not sure.

1:37:06>> Can we do this cuz I want to make sure

1:37:07that he gets a complete walk-through?

1:37:10Can we set up a one-on-one with him and

1:37:13Ms. Colleen Cotter so that they can have

1:37:15a clearer line of communication on how

1:37:18the intake process works? And so that he

1:37:20has a specific dedicated person that he

1:37:23could talk to.

1:37:24Um because that's unsettling to hear

1:37:26that he went and didn't get anything cuz

1:37:29we actually are the ones that really

1:37:30kind of stood this program up. So, we

1:37:33want to make sure that any council

1:37:34member or any public person has an

1:37:36opportunity to be heard whenever they

1:37:39have this issue. So, can we arrange for

1:37:41them to actually have a meeting with you

1:37:43to be able to sit down and walk through

1:37:45it step by step?

1:37:46>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That would be

1:37:47appreciative on this end. I don't ever

1:37:49want to have to go through that

1:37:51nightmare again. Um so, I'm appreciative

1:37:53of your leadership today.

1:37:54>> just contract with them. So, that's why

1:37:56I want to get you Legal Aid themselves

1:37:58so that she's not trying to answer

1:38:00questions on their behalf. They need to

1:38:03sit down with you and go over with you

1:38:04point by point how the intake process

1:38:07works.

1:38:07>> All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1:38:08Thank you, Dorena.

1:38:09>> All right. Thank you. Councilman Brian

1:38:11Casey.

1:38:12>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman,

1:38:14to our presenter, what was the amount

1:38:17that you mentioned

1:38:18for this I think you said 1.2 million?

1:38:20>> It's 1.25, I believe.

1:38:23>> Is that what we're Is that what the ask

1:38:24is today?

1:38:25>> Yes.

1:38:26>> Is there an amendment?

1:38:28>> There was an amendment.

1:38:29>> an amendment. That's why we're passing

1:38:30this cuz we added during budget

1:38:32reconciliation, we added $500,000.

1:38:35It was originally, I think, 700 750.

1:38:39>> That's That's what I was going to ask. I

1:38:40know in the legislation it says 750.

1:38:42>> 750, but then if you look at the

1:38:43amendment, we actually are trying to

1:38:45increase because Council actually uh

1:38:48during reconciliation said we wanted to

1:38:50add 500 additional thousand dollars.

1:38:52>> Okay. And then, Mr. Chairman, to our

1:38:53presenters,

1:38:56last year, you received 750,000?

1:38:59>> Uh Legal Aid Society.

1:39:00>> Okay. I know well well the program.

1:39:02Well, whoever the program is, right?

1:39:03Okay. 750,000 and you indicated there

1:39:06was 5,370

1:39:08filings.

1:39:09>> Yes.

1:39:12Eviction filings. Yes.

1:39:13>> Okay. And that was with the program.

1:39:15>> served, sorry. Eviction cases.

1:39:17>> And then how many

1:39:18And then, Mr. Chairman, to our

1:39:19presenters, how many of those 5,370 did

1:39:23did the program actually work?

1:39:25>> That That is the number that's

1:39:28the cases and clients that were served.

1:39:29Yes.

1:39:29>> Okay. So, they actually And can you

1:39:32explain to us what served means? I mean,

1:39:34is it just answering

1:39:37Is it actually going to court? Is it

1:39:39actually answering a filing?

1:39:41>> Uh I believe it could be any combination

1:39:43of those things.

1:39:44>> Okay, so that it could be anything.

1:39:46>> Yes, I believe so.

1:39:47>> Okay, thank you.

1:39:48>> And just as a follow-up to the

1:39:50councilman through the chair, you I I

1:39:52did send this I can send this to you

1:39:54also their their application report.

1:39:56>> thank you.

1:39:57Does uh

1:39:58just to take that a step further,

1:40:00is it possible for Legal Aid to give us

1:40:02the disposition of those cases?

1:40:05>> Uh, through the chair.

1:40:06>> what the outcome is.

1:40:07>> Sure, I'm sure I'm sure.

1:40:08>> Because I think that's what everybody's

1:40:09looking for. We don't want to just hear

1:40:11that somebody made a call and say, "Oh,

1:40:12we served you and have you as an

1:40:13unduplicated service." We want to make

1:40:16sure that we understand if the

1:40:17disposition is actually getting the

1:40:18outcome. Now, I know the question I'm a

1:40:20rhetorical person. The actual increase

1:40:24actually went from like 10% of these

1:40:28guys actually getting cases and um

1:40:30getting a massive amount of evictions to

1:40:32like I think almost 80-something now.

1:40:34Um, but those are the kind of things

1:40:36that they would be good for us to have

1:40:37in order for the body to be able to see

1:40:40that, okay?

1:40:40>> Very good.

1:40:41>> All right, thank you. And one more

1:40:42question, Mr. Chairman.

1:40:43>> Is evictions up or evictions down? Do we

1:40:46know?

1:40:46>> That's that's the uh the the that's the

1:40:48empirical data that I want them to give

1:40:50you and make sure that they spend that

1:40:53time with you, okay?

1:40:54>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1:40:54>> Thank you. And can we please make sure

1:40:56we do that? If I need to call Carlin

1:40:58myself, I need him to have that

1:40:59conversation, okay?

1:41:01Thank you. Uh, seeing no other

1:41:02questions, ordinance number 1031-2026

1:41:05as amended stands approved. Please sign

1:41:08on.

1:41:09The other one is

1:41:10council members Polensek, Santana,

1:41:13Bishop, and Griffin by departmental

1:41:14request, ordinance number 1034-2026.

1:41:21This says authorizing the director of

1:41:24community development to lease the Five

1:41:26Points building, also known as

1:41:28Collinwood Community Center, located at

1:41:30813 East 152nd Street to the Famicos

1:41:34Foundation to operate and provide a

1:41:36range of social services and maintain

1:41:39the five-point building for a period of

1:41:422 years with two options to renew.

1:41:45>> To the chair, I believe that was Yeah,

1:41:47that was heard this morning, I believe.

1:41:49>> Okay. That was heard in DPS and heard in

1:41:51Municipal Services. So

1:41:53>> Oh, and where

1:41:54>> out of both, Councilman Bishop.

1:41:56Yeah, so now it's just

1:41:59>> No, no, no, that's ours. Yeah, but I

1:42:01don't think I was aware that that was on

1:42:03the agenda, but we can

1:42:05happy to

1:42:06>> What what what number is that?

1:42:07>> needs to be done here.

1:42:08>> 10 34 So, Councilman Palencia, this is

1:42:12in your your area?

1:42:13>> Yes, it is, but that was it.

1:42:14>> Okay. So, this is this is basically

1:42:19um

1:42:20Okay. This is for the rent out Collier

1:42:23Heights Community Center, the five

1:42:25points, also known as Collier Heights

1:42:27Community Center Collier Heights Collier

1:42:28Heights Community Center, okay?

1:42:31And it has been passed in those two

1:42:33committees.

1:42:37Any comments?

1:42:39>> I do, Mr. Chairman.

1:42:41>> Councilman Palencia, while she's looking

1:42:42up some information

1:42:43>> Chairman, obviously I support the lease

1:42:45agreement with Famicos.

1:42:47There's been an outstanding issue with

1:42:50maintenance of the building, and I just

1:42:52want to see

1:42:54I want to I'm going to request through

1:42:55you, Mr. Chairman, and through the

1:42:56director, I want to see the fi- I want

1:42:58to see the final lease document before

1:43:01it is signed.

1:43:02Uh because to my knowledge it has not

1:43:04been signed. Unless I'm incorrect. Um

1:43:08I want to see the final lease agreement

1:43:09cuz that's been the issue at the Five

1:43:11Points Community Center, and we have

1:43:13identified $100,000

1:43:15for repairs. And the director explained

1:43:19a process that that um Famicos must

1:43:21should go through as it pertains to

1:43:23making repairs on a building. So, I'm

1:43:25just I'm I want to make sure through

1:43:27you, Mr. Chairman, and through the

1:43:29director, that I can see that lease

1:43:31before it is

1:43:32um

1:43:33signed and agreed to, okay? Other than

1:43:35that, I support the

1:43:37the legislation.

1:43:38>> Okay, thank you. And you were here, I

1:43:41believe, with John Iannalifo when you

1:43:42left.

1:43:43>> That's correct, yes. Thank you.

1:43:45>> So, seeing no other question Oh,

1:43:47Councilman Conwell.

1:43:48>> Yeah, um

1:43:50Council member asked me to uh

1:43:53put some money into that um building,

1:43:56but uh

1:43:57I really don't know.

1:43:59It's my first time hearing this. I

1:44:01really don't know what you're doing over

1:44:02there um with that building. If you

1:44:04actually put dollars in it, you should

1:44:07at least sit down and talk with me, tell

1:44:10me about, you know, what you're planning

1:44:12to do. I mean, Council member Mike

1:44:14Polensek, if I'm going to put some

1:44:16dollars in there, my residents' money,

1:44:18it's not my money, their money. I need

1:44:20to at least know what's going on. Now,

1:44:22if you want to go solo with it,

1:44:24then by all means, do.

1:44:26>> So, Mr. Chairman, to my colleague, my

1:44:28esteemed colleague, I thought John

1:44:29Iannalifo had spoken to you.

1:44:31>> Well, you you don't want to put in the

1:44:33legislation and uh Council member

1:44:35>> This was by departmental request.

1:44:37>> Well, well, you know what? Uh your name

1:44:40is on it.

1:44:41>> Then I would ask that your name be

1:44:42added, too.

1:44:43>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, put it on there as

1:44:45well.

1:44:45>> put Councilman Conwell's name on it?

1:44:46>> I have absolutely no problem with that.

1:44:48>> uh Councilman Conwell's name added.

1:44:49>> Thank you very much.

1:44:50>> And if you guys can have that

1:44:52conversation

1:44:53>> I'd be glad to.

1:44:55Be glad to.

1:44:55>> All right. Seeing no other questions,

1:44:57ordinance number 1034-2026

1:44:59stands approved.

1:45:00>> Thank you.

1:45:01>> Thank you.

1:45:03All right. Uh we now have two more

1:45:06pieces. We are going to hold and going

1:45:08to ask if Ms. Jimenez

1:45:10I'm going to hold 1042-2026

1:45:14for further notice.

1:45:23All right. This uh is resolution number

1:45:27Member Cazy

1:45:30an emergency resolution declaring

1:45:32October 13th as Bernie Kosar Day in the

1:45:36city of Cleveland.

1:45:37Councilman Cazy, would you like to

1:45:39discuss this?

1:45:40>> Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.

1:45:42Everybody who is probably

1:45:4535 or older, maybe,

1:45:48remembers the the joy and excitement

1:45:50that

1:45:51Bernie Kosar brought to the brought to

1:45:52the city of Cleveland. He's a young

1:45:54strong guy who

1:45:56not only was he the 1991 Ohio Division

1:45:59Player of the Year in high school, but

1:46:01he also went on to be the victim of Doug

1:46:03Flutie's Hail Mary pass in 1980

1:46:074

1:46:09uh

1:46:10in college football.

1:46:11Bernie always wanted to be a Cleveland

1:46:13Brown so much so that he actually, to

1:46:16his credit, manipulated the NF the 1985

1:46:19NFL supplemental draft in order to allow

1:46:22himself to be drafted by the Cleveland

1:46:24Browns.

1:46:25Some of his career highlights, he's 21

1:46:27over 21,000 almost 22,000 career passing

1:46:30yards in the city of Cleveland. Took us

1:46:32to three divisional AFC Championship

1:46:34games.

1:46:35Um some of his highlights include the

1:46:3797-yard bomb to Webster Slaughter.

1:46:41His 1986 double overtime win against the

1:46:43Jets, which is the second longest game

1:46:45in NFL history from clock time.

1:46:48He reinvented the the the no-huddle

1:46:51um 1990 to 91 he had the most

1:46:53consecutive passes in NFL without an

1:46:56interception surpassing Bart Starr and

1:46:59only to be had the record broken by Tom

1:47:02Brady.

1:47:03And the biggest thing is that Bernie

1:47:04always wanted to be a Cleveland Brown

1:47:06and he

1:47:07his heart is in Cleveland and

1:47:10um

1:47:11I think it's time that you know he's

1:47:13Cleveland's second son when it comes to

1:47:15the football team and

1:47:16it's about time that the city finally

1:47:18recognizes his accomplishments to

1:47:20everything he's done in the city.

1:47:23>> Well, first of all, this is outstanding.

1:47:24Uh

1:47:25Just so that everybody knows, I've been

1:47:27watching Bernie and been knowing him a

1:47:29very long time. And

1:47:31this is well overdue. He's a very humble

1:47:33person, does a lot of things, and every

1:47:36time I look at his

1:47:38information, he talks about you matter.

1:47:40So, he has taken his enthusiasm for what

1:47:43he's done on the field and becoming an

1:47:45exemplary citizen off the field.

1:47:48So, I think that this is a very good

1:47:50resolution. And I'm hearing that he may

1:47:53be coming here.

1:47:54>> There'll be a reception here in the

1:47:56committee room tonight at 6:00

1:47:58>> Okay.

1:47:58>> for him and Down Syndrome Day in the

1:48:00city of Cleveland.

1:48:01>> And thanks for letting us know.

1:48:02>> And he'll be here. I thought they

1:48:03[laughter] did. And he will be here

1:48:05tonight to accept the to accept the the

1:48:08the recognition.

1:48:08>> Outstanding, because you know, like I

1:48:10said, I've been watching Bernie a long

1:48:12time. He's always been a great football

1:48:14player.

1:48:15He's always been a great football

1:48:16player. And I'm glad that he'll be here.

1:48:19I'm glad that he'll be here for that

1:48:20this this evening. I'm glad you and you

1:48:22know, your colleagues, hopefully they

1:48:23can join and be able to celebrate that

1:48:25with him. Okay?

1:48:26>> Are we going to add all the councilman's

1:48:28name on it?

1:48:29>> Do you have any objection to all the

1:48:30council members' names being added?

1:48:32Would you please add all of the council

1:48:34members' names to that? Okay?

1:48:36>> Councilman Kevin Conwell.

1:48:38>> Yeah, you know what? That is a good

1:48:41you narrating him well.

1:48:44Council member Kazy as well as Council

1:48:46President Blaine Griffin, he's a great

1:48:49guy. He still goes out in the community

1:48:51to help to give back. But I want to do a

1:48:54sidebar. Councilman Slight wasn't here

1:48:57when he was playing. You said he was 34.

1:48:59What is he about? 29 or 30 years old? He

1:49:01wasn't [laughter] here. You don't know

1:49:02nothing about Bernie Kosar except what

1:49:04he see on the reruns.

1:49:08I had to throw that heat in on you, sir.

1:49:12>> [laughter]

1:49:12>> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, they have moved

1:49:14out.

1:49:15>> Councilman Joseph Jones.

1:49:16>> You know, as one of the things to just

1:49:18add is that, you know, when you

1:49:20when you go through a process of him

1:49:23being the quarterback for the time

1:49:24period he was all the way up until now.

1:49:26>> That's not it.

1:49:27>> Um hands down, by far, uh which is

1:49:30unfortunate for us here in the city of

1:49:32Cleveland, he was the best quarterback

1:49:34that we had. He was I mean, this man was

1:49:37playing uh

1:49:39uh with broke ribs, uh

1:49:42uh fingers, elbows,

1:49:45uh uh and even a broke ankle at one

1:49:48point in time. So, so he was one of

1:49:51those quarterbacks that was hardcore,

1:49:54hard hitting. He stuck in that pocket,

1:49:57and he threw that ball to Webster

1:49:58Slaughter. And on a many Sundays, I

1:50:00enjoyed myself as a kid watching Bernie

1:50:03Kosar uh play for the Cleveland Browns.

1:50:05And so, I wish we had another Bernie

1:50:08Kosar.

1:50:09>> Uh uh news flash, I just got a text. Um

1:50:12I heard Jimmy Haslam is going to be here

1:50:14to greet KG and Michael Wilson

1:50:17along [laughter] with Bernie Kosar

1:50:18today.

1:50:19>> I'll be glad to see him. I just got a

1:50:21text from Jimmy.

1:50:21>> I'll be glad TO SEE HIM.

1:50:24>> [laughter]

1:50:24>> I JUST THAT'S A GOOD ONE, STEVE.

1:50:25>> I JUST HAD TO LIGHTEN IT UP TODAY.

1:50:29>> All right.

1:50:30>> Uh that would be funny, man.

1:50:31>> Seeing that the question is ordinance

1:50:33number 1235 passed 2026 stands approved.

1:50:36Please sign off.

1:50:37>> Bernie, Bernie.

1:50:38>> Uh Councilwoman House Jones and

1:50:42Councilman Starr are not here to discuss

1:50:44this piece. Uh this is going to be an

1:50:46extensive piece to discuss. Uh so, what

1:50:50I'm going to do is since they are not

1:50:51here to have this discussion, um

1:50:55I believe I'm just going to hold it.

1:50:57>> Okay.

1:50:57>> Um in order for us to be able to have

1:50:59it, really, to be honest with you, I

1:51:01think this should be something that we

1:51:03have a very rigorous conversation, um

1:51:06maybe in a a a meeting before we

1:51:08actually get to the table. Uh but I did

1:51:11I want to do a forward them to have a

1:51:12conversation publicly.

1:51:14Uh, so we'll determine on if we want to

1:51:16bring it back to the table to have a

1:51:18public discussion because um, it's my

1:51:21understanding that there are some

1:51:22amendments that the administration has.

1:51:25Uh, but there's also some um, some

1:51:27amendments that uh, Councilwoman House

1:51:29Jones would like to proffer regarding

1:51:31our casino revenue funds. Um, I do want

1:51:35to make sure that everybody should read

1:51:38our ordinances very thoroughly

1:51:40uh, because one of the things that we

1:51:43are not is a contracting department. But

1:51:46um, I believe that there's some things

1:51:48that they would like to propose and I

1:51:50don't believe this would do them justice

1:51:51if they're not here, okay?

1:51:53>> Mr. President.

1:51:54>> Yes.

1:51:55Councilman.

1:51:55>> Uh, is it

1:51:57do can administration amend uh, council

1:52:00medic

1:52:01generated pieces?

1:52:02>> No. No.

1:52:04Uh, but what administration can uh, do

1:52:08is if something does not have

1:52:10legislative um, that it does not meet

1:52:13legislative authority. But no, they

1:52:15cannot amend on our behalf. That's one

1:52:19of the reasons why I want to hold this

1:52:22because there's a lot of questions

1:52:23around this and want to make sure that

1:52:25we understand what all is being asked of

1:52:29all of this, okay?

1:52:32>> I have a question.

1:52:33>> Councilwoman House

1:52:34>> my understanding that she wanted to pass

1:52:36this because she had to pay for the

1:52:38conference. So,

1:52:40if we hold it today,

1:52:43>> Well, I mean we can pass as is,

1:52:47but it was some amendments that she was

1:52:50looking at making.

1:52:50>> Okay.

1:52:51>> And

1:52:52I'll be more than willing if if it just

1:52:54pass as is, but if she wants to make

1:52:56amendments then she may have to come

1:52:58back to the table

1:53:00to look at those cuz I don't have her.

1:53:02>> You don't have her amendments. Okay.

1:53:04Okay.

1:53:05>> Okay. And and to your point, uh

1:53:09I will, um

1:53:13This The reason that the amendments were

1:53:16sent up by the administration,

1:53:18Councilman Bishop, to your point, and

1:53:21this is my understanding, this there

1:53:23were clerical errors in the ordinance uh

1:53:26when the ordinance was introduced

1:53:28without the deletions that were in the

1:53:30prepared draft. So, the amendments that

1:53:32were given to us were amendments to

1:53:35correct the legal language. Um that's

1:53:37what they're saying.

1:53:38>> She's coming back.

1:53:39>> Mr. Reed, are you here?

1:53:40>> I texted him.

1:53:43Um the reason that the administration

1:53:45has submitted a couple of amendments is

1:53:47because there were legal

1:53:49uh clerical errors. Amendments, so this

1:53:52amendment is to fix a clerical error.

1:53:56The ordinance was introduced without the

1:53:57deletions that were in the prepared

1:54:00draft. So, it is not the administration

1:54:02just amending on our behalf. This is

1:54:05basically trying to clear up any, um any

1:54:09legal I mean, any clerical errors. And

1:54:12once again, these are recommended. We

1:54:14would have to introduce the amendments

1:54:16and accept them.

1:54:17So, she If she is on her way back, do

1:54:20you want to read this in the record and

1:54:21then we might as well get into it.

1:54:23>> I can read it into the record.

1:54:24>> All right, let me do this first then let

1:54:26me read the ordinance then, okay?

1:54:27>> Okay.

1:54:28>> All right, this is ordinance number

1:54:29950-2026

1:54:32as amended by Councilman House Jones and

1:54:35Star, an emergency ordinance amending

1:54:37the title and section two of ordinance

1:54:40number 715-2025

1:54:43passed July 9th, 2025 relating to

1:54:46Cleveland Casino revenues for use by

1:54:49Cleveland City Council. And I'll read

1:54:52these two amendments for the clerical

1:54:53errors, and then as I read the two

1:54:55amendments for the clerical errors, then

1:54:57hopefully by then Councilwoman House

1:54:59Jones

1:55:00uh will be here in order to deliberate

1:55:02her case.

1:55:04They are saying the amendments for these

1:55:06are the strictly the clean up legal

1:55:08language that there is no legal

1:55:10objection to this legislation

1:55:11implemented as follows. And Councilman

1:55:14Jones, just to let you know we're just

1:55:15making the clerical errors

1:55:17to clean up any clerical errors in this,

1:55:19okay?

1:55:20So and then you can get into the

1:55:22amendments that you would like to

1:55:23proffer. All right, so first there is

1:55:25there is no legal objection to this

1:55:27legislation implemented as follows. One,

1:55:30in section one at the second paragraph

1:55:32line one after Board of Control insert

1:55:35with legislative authority.

1:55:38Oh, no, that's not it. That's not it. I

1:55:39apologize. That's the wrong one. Wrong

1:55:41one, wrong one, wrong one.

1:55:44Trying to move too fast. All right,

1:55:45there is no legal objection to this

1:55:47legislation if amended as follows. One,

1:55:50in section one line four and five strike

1:55:53and adopting new protocols for the use

1:55:55of such funds and insert a period.

1:55:58Number two, in section two lines 10

1:56:02and 11 after project strike in

1:56:04accordance with the process set forth in

1:56:07file number 715-2025A

1:56:11as may be amended from time to time.

1:56:14This is an amendment once again to fix

1:56:16clerical errors that were omitted when

1:56:20the ordinance was introduced without the

1:56:22deletions that were in the prepared

1:56:24draft. Do I have a

1:56:27Do I have a

1:56:29anyone that would like to offer this

1:56:30amendment?

1:56:32>> I can offer that amendment. Do you want

1:56:34me to read it again? Or should I can I

1:56:36just say so moved?

1:56:37>> You say so moved.

1:56:38>> Okay.

1:56:38>> So moved. Do we have a second?

1:56:40>> I'll second.

1:56:41>> All right, Councilman moved and

1:56:42seconded. This is a discussion. Any

1:56:44discussion on this? Once again, this is

1:56:47because there were clerical errors and

1:56:50there was

1:56:51language that was omitted. So what this

1:56:54amendment fixes is a clerical error.

1:56:57The once the ordinance was introduced

1:56:59without the deletions that were in the

1:57:01prepared draft. So this is to clean up

1:57:03the legal language in the ordinance

1:57:06950-2026

1:57:08as amended.

1:57:09>> But it's not the past ordinance. It's

1:57:11>> No, this is the this is discussion to

1:57:14accept these two amendments that we

1:57:16declare the clerical errors.

1:57:18Seeing no other discussion, all in favor

1:57:21say I.

1:57:21>> I.

1:57:22>> Any opposed? The eyes have it. Okay? So

1:57:26Councilwoman Jones has prepared some

1:57:28amendments and I will turn the floor

1:57:31over to her

1:57:32and have a discussion regarding uh

1:57:35the amendments that she is proffering

1:57:37regarding casino funding.

1:57:38>> Mr. Mayor, cuz it's not it's not on our

1:57:40>> Uh can one of the department put it up

1:57:42on the screen? Cuz I didn't I don't

1:57:44think that

1:57:45>> have it.

1:57:45>> Yeah, you know it's it's

1:57:47No, it's it's on your on this right

1:57:49here. Cuz I'm going to explain

1:57:51beca- this is

1:57:52Okay, so um

1:57:53>> This is the entire ordinance?

1:57:56>> No, I'm going to It's really the section

1:57:58of the amendment cuz I'm trying to

1:57:59explain this was actually submitted back

1:58:01on August 18th and I'm not sure what

1:58:03happened whatever. So I'm just going to

1:58:04go through it and we can talk about it

1:58:06and go from there.

1:58:07Um so as everyone knows the the casino

1:58:13legislation that we've talked about

1:58:15years on years, it all the things that

1:58:17it already does

1:58:18um

1:58:1950% of the casino revenues that are

1:58:23collected equal amounts distributed

1:58:25between each of the wards. And the one

1:58:27thing we're supposed to be getting a

1:58:29monthly

1:58:30expenditure report from the director of

1:58:32finance to clerk

1:58:34and seal. I have yet to see that, but

1:58:37this is something that I think we want

1:58:38to

1:58:39stay on top of. These are the things

1:58:40that people have talked about.

1:58:43The proposed changes this was the

1:58:44amendment that you all just put in

1:58:46there. Again, these were the things that

1:58:47were put in there.

1:58:49It removes adopting new protocols for

1:58:52the use of such funds.

1:58:54Um we are not trying to say this is the

1:58:56exact way you have to do it to keep it

1:58:57more um open and fluid.

1:59:00Um the second one, which is an amendment

1:59:02that somebody needs to do, is it removes

1:59:05the currently 17 council members cuz we

1:59:07don't have it. Um so that regardless of

1:59:10how many council wards we have, uh this

1:59:13will be applicable. And then um the

1:59:16other portion was the framework where I

1:59:20it doesn't say that this is the

1:59:22exact process that you have to utilize.

1:59:26It is more of a guiding framework,

1:59:28right? So that is what you have in the

1:59:30legislation.

1:59:31Um which is the underlying uh portion in

1:59:35section two. Does everyone see that?

1:59:37>> Yes.

1:59:37>> Okay.

1:59:39Um the other one Now, this was another

1:59:42um

1:59:43proposal which was not listed on here,

1:59:45but I

1:59:47presented it over here, which was

1:59:49submitted. Um this is a section that is

1:59:51in section two, which what it currently

1:59:54says is project proposals will be

1:59:56submitted to the council and reviewed by

1:59:57council staff, and the Department of Law

2:00:00determined that the project constitutes

2:00:02a proper public purpose benefiting the

2:00:04general health, safety, or welfare of

2:00:06the residents of the city of Cleveland.

2:00:08This is the one that I think is the most

2:00:10contentious with whoever. But one of the

2:00:12things when I over the summer, um I was

2:00:15tasked with talking with various council

2:00:18members, and I will thank the nine

2:00:20council members who gave me their

2:00:21feedback that indicated this was one of

2:00:24the issues. And doing further um and

2:00:27doing further research, um

2:00:29one of the I'm going to go back to that

2:00:31cuz it'll come back from that. But that

2:00:32was it was to remove the entire section,

2:00:34and that is what it strike over. That is

2:00:36what I sent over in August, and it did

2:00:38not come

2:00:39um in this form. And then the other one

2:00:41we just talked about about um all

2:00:44projects will be submitted, reviewed,

2:00:46and authorized by separate legislation

2:00:48in accordance with the process set forth

2:00:50in the file. This was again the

2:00:51amendment that you talked about where

2:00:54it's a guiding framework and not an

2:00:56exact um protocol.

2:00:59Uh and so that's what the revised

2:01:01language states, um which again is

2:01:04underlined in section two.

2:01:07Why is this important? Um

2:01:09this is a thing that we have talked

2:01:10about um

2:01:12the Supreme Court's decision in 1951

2:01:16that talked about the public person

2:01:17purpose doctrine is dynamic and changes

2:01:19with circumstances. No single broad rule

2:01:23can be built. Each set of facts must be

2:01:25analyzed individually. That is the case

2:01:28law that is presented in McClure versus

2:01:30Hagerman. Also again, which I sent uh um

2:01:34this is the one that talks about um the

2:01:37legislative body

2:01:38may determine what is a public purpose

2:01:42and course will not interfere absent a

2:01:43gross abuse of discretion. This is a

2:01:46thing where Cleveland City Council has

2:01:48the responsibility to determine what a

2:01:51proper public purpose is. Not staff, not

2:01:54the light of law department, it's

2:01:55Cleveland City Council.

2:01:56>> That's right.

2:01:57>> And so that is the reason why in section

2:02:00two

2:02:01decided to strike this process where for

2:02:04some reason it's the staff and the

2:02:07department of law to determine that the

2:02:09project constitutes a proper public

2:02:11purpose. Cleveland City Council must do

2:02:13that.

2:02:13>> That's right.

2:02:14>> Not anyone else. And um again, like I

2:02:17said, in the information I sent over,

2:02:19the the Ohio Municipal League in their

2:02:22um 2024

2:02:25new council member went extensively into

2:02:28what this process is and one of the

2:02:30challenges that we have, how did we get

2:02:32here? The most recent challenge that I

2:02:34personally had was trying to allocate

2:02:38professional development for my office.

2:02:40I was told from staff that

2:02:43it was not able to be done, and two, it

2:02:46is a personal benefit, which is absurd,

2:02:49and I felt felt it as such, and

2:02:51therefore I went through this process to

2:02:54come up with legislation that is based

2:02:56on

2:02:57the law and not anything else. And so,

2:03:00that is what is in before you all today.

2:03:03Um I have talked to various members, um

2:03:06and we just have to come to a place here

2:03:08in Cleveland City Council where

2:03:12the law as it is written

2:03:15is being followed.

2:03:18And not all of some of these other

2:03:20things that um have come come to

2:03:23fruition since the time that I have come

2:03:25uh to this body. So, um

2:03:28that's just what's before you. Um there

2:03:30will need to be another amendment um

2:03:34like I said, that's has to the straight

2:03:36language, which I would appreciate uh

2:03:38one of the members to put forward, um

2:03:41but that's what we have here, and I'll

2:03:42be more than happy to answer any

2:03:44questions that people have.

2:03:46>> So, first of all, thank you for um

2:03:48clarifying all of these, and um let's do

2:03:51the easy one first. Um I think right now

2:03:54it says currently has 17, um and can we

2:03:58have an amendment that somebody can

2:03:59proffer to go from uh in section two to

2:04:03change that from currently 17 to 15?

2:04:06>> No.

2:04:07>> Can I just clarification? I would just

2:04:09say to end with within the city. So, no

2:04:12matter just to strike currently 17. Just

2:04:15to strike it completely, which would

2:04:17then make it broad, so no matter how

2:04:19many wards are in the city of Cleveland,

2:04:21it would be just applicable to how many

2:04:23wards are in the city of Cleveland.

2:04:25>> Would somebody would like proffer that

2:04:26amendment?

2:04:27>> I'll proffer the amendment. Okay.

2:04:28>> Proffer amendment.

2:04:29>> Okay. So, Councilman Hairston, I have a

2:04:31second Councilman Santana. Any

2:04:32discussion? Seeing no discussion, all in

2:04:35favor say I.

2:04:36>> I.

2:04:37>> Okay, that amendment passes.

2:04:39Attorney, do you have that amendment

2:04:41clarified?

2:04:44Could we give her a copy?

2:04:46And just so that we could repeat, okay?

2:04:49In section two of this ordinance, it has

2:04:53within the city currently 17.

2:04:56And what the councilwoman has proposed

2:04:58is just striking currently 17 and ending

2:05:03at within the city.

2:05:06Okay? All right. So, the amendment has

2:05:09been a profit and approved. The A's have

2:05:13it.

2:05:14Discussion.

2:05:15The other amendment is the project

2:05:18proposals.

2:05:20I could do this one or two ways. We

2:05:22could either ask and have discussion or

2:05:25we can properly amendment and then

2:05:27discuss and then vote on whether we

2:05:29support or not support.

2:05:31>> That's what I would have recommend.

2:05:33>> If we discuss first, then we can go into

2:05:37if we do the amendment or or if we did a

2:05:40property amendment, then we would have

2:05:42to vote and either

2:05:44vote I or nay on that amendment. So,

2:05:48councilwoman as a member of this body, I

2:05:50know you're not a member of finance

2:05:51committee. Would you rather have that

2:05:53conversation first or would you rather

2:05:54just us move straight to the discussion

2:05:56and have a vote?

2:05:58>> We can we can have a question the the

2:05:59discussion.

2:06:00>> Okay, so we're going to have the

2:06:01discussion. All right. I just do have a

2:06:04couple of questions that I want to make

2:06:05sure I understand.

2:06:08So, we went through an extensive process

2:06:11with 715-2025

2:06:14where we got outside counsel that gave

2:06:17us sort of a did a review of all of our

2:06:20discretionary spending and casino money.

2:06:25Why is and and

2:06:28it would be good if you could maybe have

2:06:29somebody from our legal department and

2:06:31they could come here too.

2:06:33>> I'm trying to understand why that is not

2:06:35appropriate as a document. Do you

2:06:38believe that we need to strike that

2:06:40because it is

2:06:43too restrictive?

2:06:44>> I believe it needs to be restricted

2:06:46because legally legislators are supposed

2:06:50to define what a proper public purpose

2:06:52is and not staff and the law department.

2:06:54>> So

2:06:54>> And it began because of my interaction

2:06:58consistently with the staff where I have

2:07:01been told for various things from

2:07:05getting

2:07:07like staff t-shirts or jacket that that

2:07:10is not a proper public purpose. I've

2:07:12been told professional development is

2:07:14not a proper public purpose and these

2:07:17are

2:07:18I just again based on the intent of when

2:07:21we went through this process those

2:07:22things are absolutely applicable and not

2:07:25having to go through a process where

2:07:27we're going back and forth having to

2:07:28consistently get outside counsel to ask

2:07:31a question that everyone

2:07:33people should know what is actually

2:07:35applicable versus what is not or even

2:07:37having to come to you you know quite

2:07:39frankly council president to try to

2:07:42handle a tiff like you know what I'm

2:07:44saying the rift that's going on because

2:07:46the attorney said something no and again

2:07:50again

2:07:52other council members have talked about

2:07:54how they had been denied things because

2:07:57it was told you couldn't use

2:07:59casino dollars that can go in contingent

2:08:02with councilmatic events things that

2:08:04have don't have any bearing of what

2:08:07truly is a proper public purpose and it

2:08:09is not I think it's really inappropriate

2:08:12at times for staff members to and the

2:08:14law departments are interacting things

2:08:17that are not according to law. We have

2:08:19laid out a process in the file and again

2:08:22if there are things that people are will

2:08:24say oh no

2:08:27well we think that's the issue." I will

2:08:28go back to the case law, right? The case

2:08:31law actually outlines no single broad

2:08:34rule can be built. Each set of facts

2:08:36must be analyzed individually, and that

2:08:38is something that is not happening. The

2:08:40individual facts are not being analyzed,

2:08:42and according to case law that we are

2:08:44using for our proper public purpose,

2:08:46that's the standard that needs to be

2:08:47held.

2:08:47>> Councilwoman, in your defense, I will

2:08:49tell you that I want this settled

2:08:51because you're right. I'm tired of

2:08:52trying to manage. This has become

2:08:54probably a major headache for me, and I

2:08:58would love to get this clarified.

2:09:00Um, I do want to make sure, as Council

2:09:02President, it is my responsibility,

2:09:04um, whether people like it here or not,

2:09:06um, to try to make sure we protect this

2:09:08institution. So, anything that I do, I

2:09:10want to try to make sure we're

2:09:11protecting the institution. Uh, the

2:09:13other question that I have is, would we

2:09:15have to increase the uses on the file

2:09:20because that's one of the reasons

2:09:22originally I did not want to create a

2:09:25file because I

2:09:27had I was told we had to create a file

2:09:29because we had to outline, and once

2:09:31again, in your defense, the legal the

2:09:33law department told us, "Well, these are

2:09:35the rules that you guys set forth." So,

2:09:37do we have to expand, in your opinion,

2:09:40uh, the uses in 715-2025?

2:09:44>> You can add a statement other You know

2:09:46what I'm saying? I I think there will

2:09:48not be every circumstance issue will not

2:09:51be listed, and that is the reason why,

2:09:53in this case, the file doesn't say

2:09:56explicit protocols. It says as a guiding

2:09:59framework, right? Which then allows the

2:10:01flexibility based on versus, you know,

2:10:04various circumstances, but even in the

2:10:06file, it it states that, you know, there

2:10:08are other things as determined, right?

2:10:11But, again,

2:10:13as we have gone through this process of

2:10:15other things determined, it's always

2:10:17seems like there can be a challenge with

2:10:19the staff and the law department about

2:10:22what those things are the other things

2:10:24as defined.

2:10:25>> And I want to make sure that I clarify

2:10:27because I remember bringing you into a

2:10:30meeting and it has become explicitly

2:10:33clear that the staff is getting this

2:10:35guidance from the law department.

2:10:36>> Right. And again

2:10:37>> And the law department is the one

2:10:38stating this which leads me to and

2:10:41because I mean I know that we constantly

2:10:42say staff and I want to make it clear

2:10:44that our staff has actually be and I've

2:10:48seen it with my own eyes in writing as

2:10:51well as in person that the law

2:10:53department specifically whenever they

2:10:56review contracts for the contracting

2:10:58departments, they're the ones that are

2:11:00coming back saying that

2:11:02this is not a proper public purpose.

2:11:04It's not arbitrary by our staff. I want

2:11:06to make sure that we clarify.

2:11:07>> I actually too because I have sat down

2:11:09this and I've done explicit research.

2:11:12According to the outside counsel, the

2:11:14three things that we cannot

2:11:16are not a proper public purpose

2:11:19are alcohol, bad debt, and partisan you

2:11:23know, and politicking. Those are the

2:11:25three things

2:11:26that public dollars cannot be spent on.

2:11:30Everything else technically, if you set

2:11:32up a program or process or whatever and

2:11:34you can you know, make that connection,

2:11:37it is it could potentially be

2:11:40permissible. But again, I do think it

2:11:42believes on the circumstance, right? You

2:11:44can't just get a individuals like

2:11:47sometimes people will be like, oh, I

2:11:48want to get

2:11:50Mrs.

2:11:52Skye's uh um her house you know, her

2:11:55house roof repaired or whatever because

2:11:57oh, she needs it done. You can't

2:11:59technically do that. You actually have

2:12:00to have a formalized process where Mrs.

2:12:03Skye has to be able to apply, you know,

2:12:05if you have the home repair program or

2:12:07things of that nature. Those are the

2:12:08types of things that again in working in

2:12:10this body, we should be working toward

2:12:12collectively and not just as adamant, oh

2:12:15no, that's not a proper public purpose

2:12:16because that again, and I'm always going

2:12:18to go back to the case law, which

2:12:20everyone wants to try to pull in our

2:12:21face. Legislators set proper proper

2:12:24[laughter] proper public purpose, not

2:12:26the law department.

2:12:27>> I understand I understand your point.

2:12:29Just trying to make sure I get to the

2:12:30bottom.

2:12:31Um last question but not least, and then

2:12:34I want to open it up to the rest of the

2:12:36body to have this conversation. Um I do

2:12:39think it's unfortunate that we don't

2:12:40have the law department here because I

2:12:42think it would be important, as I stated

2:12:44in an email to Director Griffin last

2:12:46week, um that the law department really

2:12:49needs to be involved and explicit in

2:12:51this conversation. But this is speaking

2:12:54hypothetical. The We're not a

2:12:56contracting department.

2:12:58>> Mhm.

2:12:58>> Therefore, because we are not a

2:13:00contracting department, generally most

2:13:02of our contracts go through community

2:13:03development, they go through um

2:13:07public utilities, they go through parks

2:13:09and recreation, or they go through

2:13:11health, or maybe they go through public

2:13:13works, okay?

2:13:15So, if it goes through Okay, I'll put

2:13:17you on the list, Councilman. If it goes

2:13:19through any of those proper public

2:13:20purpose, I mean, if it goes through any

2:13:22of those departments, the law the law

2:13:24department is still going to review that

2:13:27contract for its appropriateness of

2:13:29proper public purpose. So, how does this

2:13:32um strikingness get us around that?

2:13:35>> It doesn't I mean, I'm just saying it

2:13:37doesn't um the only thing, as you can

2:13:38see, the very next says the very next

2:13:41sentence says all projects will be

2:13:42submitted, reviewed, and authorized by

2:13:45separate legislation.

2:13:48It says it right there.

2:13:49>> Okay.

2:13:49>> It doesn't get it it does not um

2:13:52the issue is that in that sentence it

2:13:56grants staff and the department of law

2:13:58to be the final decision-makers on what

2:14:00is a proper public purpose. Removing

2:14:03that keeps it as a joint team where

2:14:06there can be a level of conversation and

2:14:10based on the facts and analyzing the

2:14:13individual issue, we can come to some

2:14:15level of compromise and not have this

2:14:17consistent back and forth where one

2:14:20entity that was not um

2:14:23uh

2:14:25given the legal

2:14:27um authority to do so to make the final

2:14:29decision.

2:14:30>> Well, why wouldn't we just expand 715

2:14:33and add some of the usages

2:14:34>> Because again, I don't

2:14:36Because Because the reason why I believe

2:14:37that is similarly going back to the case

2:14:40law

2:14:40sometimes they are I don't think we are

2:14:43going to have an explicit list of

2:14:44everything you can utilize it for. Who

2:14:46would have thought that me having a

2:14:47conversation about professional

2:14:48development, where professional

2:14:50development is done to the benefit of

2:14:52people. You The myriad of issues that we

2:14:54deal with, and to have people tell me,

2:14:57"Oh, no, that's a personal benefit." And

2:14:59again, if when you look at the case law,

2:15:00which was actually based on a

2:15:02municipality back in 1951, it was based

2:15:05on I think it was the city of Dayton

2:15:07actually becoming um paying for the

2:15:10professional dues of a professional

2:15:12association. That's what the case law

2:15:14was actually based on. And the Supreme

2:15:15Court then actually said that it is

2:15:18applicable, right? Because based on who

2:15:21the city is becoming a um a member of

2:15:23this association would benefit the

2:15:26public. And yeah, it's incidental, but

2:15:28again, it's still benefiting the public

2:15:30at large.

2:15:31>> All right, I got Councilman uh Slyfe, I

2:15:33got Councilman Conwell, Councilman

2:15:36Bishop.

2:15:37>> Thank you. I I I kind of want to

2:15:38understand how this works through like

2:15:41two examples, one sort of

2:15:42inconsequential, one sort of more

2:15:44consequential. Uh can I use your shirts

2:15:47as a

2:15:47>> So on the the Kam's Corners 4th of July

2:15:50parade

2:15:51>> Mhm.

2:15:52>> the mayor's staff all wears shirts that

2:15:55say City of Cleveland, Justin Bibb,

2:15:56Mayor. So clearly where legally there's

2:15:59some protocol for shirts.

2:16:01>> Yes.

2:16:01>> My The way this has been described to me

2:16:04is that perhaps when casino dollars came

2:16:09into existence and we created this

2:16:11framework or this file for how we could

2:16:14use, the error was that we attached the

2:16:17file to the legislation. So, instead of

2:16:20that becoming a non-exhaustive list of

2:16:24examples of things we can do, since it

2:16:26was attached, it's now being interpreted

2:16:29as this is a definitive list. And the it

2:16:31has that been

2:16:33has that been characterized that way to

2:16:35you cuz that's sort of how I've

2:16:36understood it? With the resolution would

2:16:38be to clarify that this was never

2:16:40supposed to be an exhaustive list. This

2:16:42was never supposed to be attached to the

2:16:43legislation.

2:16:44>> Just a clarification, the file was never

2:16:46supposed to be an exhaustive list, but

2:16:47the way it was designed and written made

2:16:50it an exhaustive list. Going back to

2:16:53And again, I know there is a level

2:16:56of where

2:16:58um

2:16:59this

2:17:00this body our collection of people

2:17:02wanted to have some framework so that

2:17:04it's not everything, but it was never

2:17:06supposed to be an exhaustive exhaustive

2:17:09list.

2:17:09>> Sure. And and

2:17:10>> in the file, like

2:17:12um even in the file, it is a place where

2:17:15you can have things that are not even

2:17:18listed on the list. But even that's what

2:17:19I'm saying, once you get to that point

2:17:21of things that are not listed on the

2:17:22list, that is where the problem comes

2:17:24into

2:17:25into problem. I like I said, so go

2:17:27ahead.

2:17:27>> And and if I'm recalling correctly when

2:17:30casino dollars came on board, the we we

2:17:33really replicated block grant

2:17:34requirements unnecessarily because this

2:17:36was general fund and we have dialed that

2:17:38back to make it less restrictive. So,

2:17:40there's precedent for making this less

2:17:41restrictive. Um so, what what I then

2:17:44want to understand is okay, so

2:17:49I'm going to use an impure example

2:17:50because this is towards a city

2:17:51department, but let's imagine there's

2:17:53some third party that this the

2:17:55administration is some organization the

2:17:57mayor's administration does not like for

2:18:00some just or unjust reason, but I'm

2:18:01going to use resurfacing cuz I think

2:18:03it's easier to understand.

2:18:04>> Okay. Uh

2:18:05we resurfaced the city West 194th

2:18:09last year. So, if next year I wanted to

2:18:12take $100,000 and resurface West 194th

2:18:17Street again,

2:18:19there's nothing inherently illegal about

2:18:21that, but the administration would come

2:18:23back and say it's not a D, it's not an

2:18:26F, we're not doing that. And

2:18:28essentially, they would throw down their

2:18:29discretion as a separate branch of the

2:18:31government to say that's that's not

2:18:33occurring. So, what I what I'm trying to

2:18:35understand is what I think and what I

2:18:38suspect is when the administration is

2:18:40coming and telling you that something's

2:18:43not a proper public purpose,

2:18:46perhaps what they are actually getting

2:18:47at is

2:18:49you we have your their you we could

2:18:51receive authorization to do something,

2:18:53but we can't be compelled to enter into

2:18:55a contract. Is that a fair way to

2:18:57characterize it?

2:18:58>> You could be, but that's not what Based

2:19:00on my experience, that has not been the

2:19:01case.

2:19:01>> I I I hear that.

2:19:02>> That has not been the case. And I think

2:19:04that is the problem. Right? Is that we

2:19:07never get to a place where we are

2:19:09investigating things as they are being

2:19:11presented.

2:19:12>> Sure. So, cuz to go back to the council

2:19:14president's example, like if if the

2:19:17department of whatever the heck were the

2:19:21contracting department in whatever

2:19:22hypothetical scenario, we could pass

2:19:25legislation giving them authority to

2:19:27enter into a contract for filling the

2:19:29blank. And the that director, the

2:19:32finance director, the mayor, any anyone

2:19:35on the administration side could

2:19:36basically say,

2:19:37"Thank you for the authorization. We

2:19:40will not be entering into that contract.

2:19:41However, we are a separate branch of

2:19:43government, and you can authorize, but

2:19:45you can't compel." And and and it would

2:19:48it would be more

2:19:50it would it would I think it would be

2:19:51more fair and transparent if the answer

2:19:55were

2:19:56we're not interested in doing that

2:19:57instead of having to

2:20:00rely on proper public purpose.

2:20:03And that seems to be where a lot of this

2:20:05this this contentious like I've almost

2:20:07been waiting for the administration just

2:20:09to say we agree with you Councilwoman

2:20:11House Jones

2:20:13we're not interested in that however.

2:20:14>> And and again that is fine. Hopefully we

2:20:17can also get that in the monthly reports

2:20:19that should be coming right? You should

2:20:21get that the level of those

2:20:23proposals that have been submitted and

2:20:25then coming back those that have been

2:20:27approved and those that have been

2:20:28rejected. I think that is very fair and

2:20:31open process but again even the

2:20:33reporting standard that we had

2:20:35had have put into it it it has not

2:20:37actually been done.

2:20:39>> Yeah

2:20:40and I hear that my I think my biggest

2:20:42concern

2:20:44and it's not because of any specific

2:20:46example it's just trying to extrapolate

2:20:48into doom scenarios into the future if

2:20:51the

2:20:53if

2:20:54the courts generally don't intervene

2:20:57absent a gross

2:20:59abuse of discretion what happens if

2:21:02there are

2:21:04abuses of discretion that are authorized

2:21:06by a legislative body that are

2:21:09not gross in

2:21:11the

2:21:12>> Well again

2:21:12>> professional definition of the term cuz

2:21:14and I only bring it up because you know

2:21:16I think we all know that the process

2:21:20the the the existence of discretionary

2:21:22dollars I actually do like the

2:21:24recommended nomenclature of council

2:21:26allocated dollars is not without

2:21:28controversy and like what what happens

2:21:31when there is impropriety or appearances

2:21:34of impropriety and trying to understand

2:21:36what good governance answer there is for

2:21:39things that may not be gross abuses of

2:21:42discretion that warrant some

2:21:43interference but put us in a

2:21:47a

2:21:48a

2:21:49a place we don't want to be whether with

2:21:51the the legal system or just with the

2:21:53public we serve.

2:21:54>> Correct. That's That's why I think my

2:21:55biggest hang-up is it was like in in an

2:21:57impure system right now, we have this

2:21:59firewall.

2:22:01And I think I'm not convinced it

2:22:02entirely goes away because we still rely

2:22:05on people to enter into the contract and

2:22:07agree to put their signature on the

2:22:08paper on the other side of the building.

2:22:11But in assumption where they're on

2:22:13board,

2:22:14it seems like we have a less durable

2:22:17firewall. And I I want to just make sure

2:22:19we're not overcorrecting and putting

2:22:20ourselves into a

2:22:23a situation

2:22:24that we wouldn't want to be in

2:22:25otherwise.

2:22:25>> Well, I don't see this as overcorrecting

2:22:27because I will always go back to

2:22:29the legislative body is the one who's

2:22:30supposed to set the rules.

2:22:32>> That's correct.

2:22:33>> That's just it. Like I I don't I don't

2:22:35know how or why that is so hard to

2:22:37interpret of legislator's job is to

2:22:40write the rules.

2:22:44And from the examples that you said, I

2:22:47don't have I can only talk about the

2:22:50experience that I've had and what I've

2:22:51heard from other council members of

2:22:53things that which I believe are very

2:22:55clear proper public purposes, but are

2:22:59told no, it's not a proper public

2:23:01purpose.

2:23:02>> That's correct.

2:23:02>> And and my final question because I do I

2:23:05everything that I've experienced with

2:23:06you in this process is you are trying to

2:23:09more effectively

2:23:12serve the residents you represent in in

2:23:15ethical and honorable way. So, I don't

2:23:16want you to think that anything is

2:23:18beyond that. But in a situation

2:23:20>> And the majority and I will put I'll

2:23:21just add to that point. The majority of

2:23:23council members have shown that since

2:23:25the existence of this body, there have

2:23:27been issues where people have had

2:23:29problematic behaviors and the systems

2:23:31deal with them accordingly. But I do not

2:23:33think that it is

2:23:35um fair to put every council member as

2:23:39being unscrupulous, doing everything

2:23:41when

2:23:42we come here to serve and to help

2:23:44support the best that we can given the

2:23:46limited amount of dollars that we do

2:23:49have and the level of resistance um

2:23:52to do the things that whether improve

2:23:54yourself to be a better legislator and

2:23:56or just to improve conditions in your

2:23:58neighborhood have been met with such

2:24:00resistance

2:24:02um

2:24:03you know, I I I just I I just feel like

2:24:05as a legislator is our responsibility to

2:24:07define what it is and then move forward.

2:24:10>> And and I agree and I will say like I do

2:24:12not think that Impett Park in the ward I

2:24:14represent would have a playground that

2:24:16is comparable to what you see in

2:24:17Fairhill Park in Lakewood but for

2:24:19council discretionary dollars because it

2:24:21is not, you know, there's Cleveland has

2:24:22very acute needs and that playground I

2:24:25don't think was ever going to rise to be

2:24:27one of them but I think it's important

2:24:28to attract and retain people in the

2:24:29city. My my final question is just

2:24:31trying to not really question as much as

2:24:33a thought exercise that I'm trying to

2:24:34grapple with is a scenario where we pass

2:24:39we define a proper public purpose

2:24:40through some sort of legislative action

2:24:42that's in conflict with Ohio Revised

2:24:43Code and where within the process we're

2:24:46able to recognize that

2:24:49uh

2:24:50we we may have actually overstepped and

2:24:52and and that's again a what what is the

2:24:53firewall to make sure that we're not

2:24:55subjecting ourselves or outside

2:24:57organizations to some interact with the

2:25:01legal system that could have been very

2:25:03well intended. I'm not even saying like

2:25:04I love the example of a council person

2:25:06in the past who wanted to buy a

2:25:08wig for someone with cancer. Like that's

2:25:10very honorable thing. So this isn't just

2:25:12about us trying to like be devious. Uh

2:25:14just trying to think through what

2:25:16protections we have to make sure that

2:25:18the 15 or 17 or however many of us there

2:25:20are who are not all attorneys are making

2:25:23sure that we're also getting the legal

2:25:26advice that we need to be making the

2:25:27right decisions.

2:25:28>> Right. So that is a when you talk about

2:25:31getting the legal advice you need, I

2:25:33would say that I haven't gotten the

2:25:34legal advice that I thought I would get.

2:25:35So it just depends.

2:25:37Just like any

2:25:39um you know, situation or scenario or or

2:25:42circumstances. So, um

2:25:45and as it relates to there are a couple

2:25:47of ways that you can look at if there is

2:25:48something that goes against

2:25:51the Ohio, you know, Constitution.

2:25:53Sometimes there's a legal strategy

2:25:54intentionally done to do that to broaden

2:25:57the thought process, you know, here in

2:25:59the state of Ohio. That's why you get

2:26:01case law, that's why you go and

2:26:02>> Thank you.

2:26:03Uh

2:26:04Conwell stepped out. I'll come back to

2:26:05him, Bishop.

2:26:08Uh Mr. President,

2:26:11um so you said that we had gotten um

2:26:14outside counsel's advice on this on this

2:26:18PPP, right?

2:26:19So, um is it is it a

2:26:23Now, who

2:26:24who was the firm or who was the outside

2:26:26counsel that gave us that advice?

2:26:27>> McDonald Hopkins was hired back in 2025

2:26:32in order to review all of our

2:26:34discretionary funding um to make sure

2:26:38that we were in compliance and then they

2:26:40helped develop um the file as well.

2:26:44>> Okay. So, I I do agree that um the

2:26:47legislators should be

2:26:50the folks that's making the rules and

2:26:51writing the rules.

2:26:53Um but I do agree with us being air on

2:26:56the side of caution also at the same

2:26:58time.

2:26:59Um if you ask one legislator what color

2:27:02is the sky, one may say blue, the other

2:27:04one may say gray.

2:27:05So, I do believe that we should take

2:27:08some time to clarify and put into the

2:27:11file, right?

2:27:13What we want to expand our pop our PPP

2:27:17um to encompass.

2:27:20I do believe we should expand it,

2:27:22but I think it needs to be clear, so

2:27:25um so, you know, so we can all have a

2:27:28guideline

2:27:29uh and a framework to work within

2:27:32as legislators.

2:27:33Thank you.

2:27:34>> Thank you and and I agree with you.

2:27:37That's one of the reasons that I really

2:27:39wish that we would review the file and

2:27:41see what else we need to add to the

2:27:43file. I understand the councilwoman is

2:27:44saying that the file is only a framework

2:27:47or a guideline.

2:27:49Um but I think it would be a lot easier

2:27:52on everybody, especially if we protected

2:27:54our to protect ourselves, if we actually

2:27:56just expanded the guideline. To her

2:27:58point, she had an issue where she's been

2:28:01trying to deal with professional

2:28:03development.

2:28:04>> And I've got a

2:28:05>> If I could, councilwoman.

2:28:07With professional development, she had

2:28:08an issue with professional development.

2:28:11Um

2:28:12and one of the things that the law

2:28:13department, I want to make sure that I

2:28:15state this clear, that the law

2:28:17department said that is not a proper

2:28:19public purpose. And to her point, I'm in

2:28:22agreement. Why? And they said, "Well,

2:28:24cuz that's you guys haven't written that

2:28:26in your rules." And I think that's

2:28:28what's been the frustration. And that's

2:28:31what I would tend to think we should do

2:28:33is expand what we can actually do within

2:28:37that file or what we can actually expand

2:28:40that framework.

2:28:41Um but once again, that's the reason why

2:28:43I'm going to do this because

2:28:45and and I'll save my comments for for

2:28:46later. I want to hear from other folks,

2:28:48but councilwoman, I know you wanted to

2:28:49respond, so please.

2:28:50>> Yes, so I would just go into that even

2:28:52we we're talking about the file, but the

2:28:54issue isn't the file. My issue

2:28:57specifically, and again talking to other

2:28:59council member, is the fact that you

2:29:01have staff and the law department was

2:29:03like, "That's not a proper public

2:29:04purpose." Again, there's no legislation

2:29:06where you explicitly Who knew you would

2:29:10in in in an environment where it says

2:29:12that you have to justify professional

2:29:14development. Like No, where where where

2:29:17is that where we currently even right

2:29:19now the administration invest in

2:29:21professional development?

2:29:23>> So

2:29:24>> Where Where Where Where is it where a

2:29:25council person is trying to invest in

2:29:28their council medical event and they are

2:29:30denied literally? They were denied the

2:29:33use of their casino dollars to support

2:29:35their Council meeting event. Who would

2:29:37even knew you would have to write

2:29:38something like that down?

2:29:39>> So, so listen, I I do agree with you,

2:29:42uh, Councilwoman House, about

2:29:43professional development. We just had a

2:29:45session in here which our consultant

2:29:47provide us professional developed to our

2:29:49staff. And that's a form of professional

2:29:52development and it was a PPP at that

2:29:54point. So, I do agree, but listen, I'm

2:29:56telling you,

2:29:57uh, in my view is that you can almost

2:30:00tie politics to almost everything

2:30:03that a legislator can do. And for case

2:30:06in point is,

2:30:07um, and I

2:30:10like with the gift cards.

2:30:13Um,

2:30:14you know, you can say, well, that's for

2:30:16people. You know, you're giving gift

2:30:18cards to people.

2:30:20But, somebody else looking from the

2:30:22outside in can say, oh, well, that's not

2:30:26a public perfect that's for politics.

2:30:28That's So, it I mean, it's a it's a I

2:30:31mean, it's always another side to the

2:30:33coin.

2:30:34Um, but I do believe we should expand it

2:30:36in professional development is one of

2:30:38the things I think that we are

2:30:40that we that we practice around here.

2:30:43We provide professional development for

2:30:46our staff

2:30:47and for our membership. So,

2:30:51and that goes to every staff member in

2:30:53the political in in our political

2:30:55offices, also. So,

2:30:57I just want to say that,

2:30:59um, but cuz my gift cards it makes me a

2:31:01little nervous

2:31:03for people to think that I can prop that

2:31:06I could possibly be doing this for

2:31:07political purposes and not just for

2:31:12the welfare of my constituency.

2:31:14And because I would never do that for my

2:31:18purposes.

2:31:19But, it's been said that we do that for

2:31:22a political purpose. So, just an example

2:31:24about how people can

2:31:25um,

2:31:27construe or

2:31:29twist situations.

2:31:31>> everything that way.

2:31:32>> Yeah. So, can I add I'm going to just

2:31:34when you talk about the gift card? So,

2:31:35one of the things is because there was a

2:31:38um

2:31:39um

2:31:41an inquiry that was done on Cleveland

2:31:42City Council. At the end of that um

2:31:45inquiry, it was found to be

2:31:47unsubstantiated, right? And as a result

2:31:50of that finding, what was put into the

2:31:53auditor's guidance was indicating that

2:31:56Cleveland City Council members

2:31:58should not um assist with the distri-

2:32:02distribution of gift cards. Even just

2:32:04with that. I recently had going back and

2:32:06forth with the law department on what

2:32:08did assist mean? As if I couldn't

2:32:10interpret what assist meant.

2:32:12They had an interpretative meaning of

2:32:13you you could not have it at a city

2:32:15council event or the city council member

2:32:17could not be at the event where they

2:32:19were where where they were at. That is

2:32:21not [clears throat] what the auditor

2:32:22meant. The auditor defined assist

2:32:24because I asked them. They did define it

2:32:26as the Cleveland City Council member

2:32:29could not physically distribute the

2:32:31cards

2:32:31>> Right.

2:32:32>> nor could they be uh dictate who got the

2:32:35gift cards.

2:32:36>> Correct.

2:32:36>> That was the definition. And again, I

2:32:38don't know how anybody else do it and

2:32:39maybe that's something that we need to

2:32:41do is actually talk about how people are

2:32:43doing processes. I have it at a annual

2:32:46event. It's one table over there. People

2:32:48go, be done, and we done. You see what

2:32:50I'm saying? So, again, I just

2:32:52I

2:32:53I can only go by of what I am hearing,

2:32:55what I've seen, and actually talking

2:32:57back to the tune of the law. But this is

2:32:59a level of disconnection that this body

2:33:02has with the law department where as a

2:33:05legislator

2:33:07trying to let me try to make me think

2:33:08that I don't know what the word assist

2:33:10means.

2:33:11And I had to if I hadn't cuz I was

2:33:13pressing on it for weeks with the law

2:33:14department. So, me myself, not the law

2:33:17department, I went to the Ohio auditor

2:33:19myself

2:33:20>> Right.

2:33:21>> to confirm what I knew, assessment.

2:33:24Right? And I don't know how we got here

2:33:26and quite frankly

2:33:27>> Politics.

2:33:28>> it's very dis- it's just disturbing.

2:33:31That there is just this level of

2:33:34contention.

2:33:36Right?

2:33:37>> to help people.

2:33:38>> Because I don't feel like I have a

2:33:39partner

2:33:41here in council for real when it comes

2:33:42to this law department. Just some of the

2:33:43stuff like when you talk to other

2:33:45professionals, people be looking at me

2:33:47like I'm crazy.

2:33:49Because again, this is the this is

2:33:51simple.

2:33:52>> It's simple.

2:33:53>> How we going to fix the real issues

2:33:55going on in our community?

2:33:57The $130,000 that we get cuz that's what

2:33:59we talking about when literally I can

2:34:01talk about my neighborhood, over 70% of

2:34:03them have been less than $5,000.

2:34:07Compared to the millions that we are

2:34:09putting in the community.

2:34:11And I just don't think that this level

2:34:13of contention should not be for this

2:34:16small amount of money.

2:34:18If it is proven, you know, from for all

2:34:20of the things. You know what I'm saying?

2:34:22So, I just again, I'm offering it, you

2:34:24know, the the the body is going to do

2:34:25what it's going to do, but at the end of

2:34:27the day, I do I should think we

2:34:30that as legislator, we have enough sense

2:34:32to be able to divine what a proper

2:34:34public purpose is, which it is in the

2:34:36file, but knowing again, going back cuz

2:34:38everybody wants to go back to the case

2:34:40law. Everything will not be explicitly

2:34:43written down. I just don't think that's

2:34:45possible. But if people want to add it

2:34:48to the additional other 48 things that

2:34:50are already listed.

2:34:51>> Hey, Councilman Conwell, Harris, Ben

2:34:53Jones.

2:34:54>> Okay, thank you very much.

2:34:56>> Go meet with Rebecca on this lead issue

2:34:59for next uh next week, CP.

2:35:03So, to the chair,

2:35:06I remember when I uh

2:35:08I think it was '05, '06,

2:35:11I used uh my expense uh

2:35:14dollars for uh professional development.

2:35:17I would use it toward um education to

2:35:20go, and no one ever ever pushed back um

2:35:23on me. So, we could use we could still

2:35:25use our um

2:35:27our expense report for us.

2:35:30Is that correct? With education to go,

2:35:32and also I went to um Cleveland State

2:35:36for continuing education as well as um

2:35:39Baldwin Wallace. It was for Six Sigma,

2:35:42critical thinking, critical analysis,

2:35:44risk analysis. I took all these kind of

2:35:46courses.

2:35:47And I use them also um Councilwoman and

2:35:50to the chair for my um

2:35:52As a matter of fact, I use it here at

2:35:53the table. You know, actually the stuff

2:35:56stuff I bring up here I I went to school

2:35:57for. And studied it at Baldwin Wallace,

2:36:00and my expense report paid for it. So,

2:36:02this um correlated to the expense report

2:36:04as well if we move on this, or we's just

2:36:07we're sticking with the

2:36:09um

2:36:10>> This just This is only

2:36:11>> the gambling casino.

2:36:12>> is only regarding the casino dollars.

2:36:13>> And so, let me ask you another question

2:36:15before I go over to my other uh

2:36:17are we saying that on the gambling

2:36:19casino money that we could um bring in

2:36:21staff members who are

2:36:23>> Well, that's currently and that's the

2:36:24other thing I just wanted to um to

2:36:27mention um as we talk about what is only

2:36:30what's applicable to the casino

2:36:31legislation, we currently utilize casino

2:36:34dollars to pay for staff, which is not

2:36:37written in the legislation.

2:36:39But, we do it.

2:36:41And when I asked the question to the law

2:36:42department, no one responded to me.

2:36:44>> Mhm.

2:36:45Mhm. [clears throat]

2:36:46That's Yeah, that's what I wanted to

2:36:47know. So, they never responded to you

2:36:49about

2:36:50>> And we currently fund staff, which is

2:36:52not listed in the legislation. But, it's

2:36:55one of those other things.

2:36:57>> Yeah, you should take a look at that.

2:36:57That's a good um thing you brought up.

2:36:59Here's in the uh

2:37:01to your argument also in the total

2:37:04rewards book for next your next

2:37:06generation of benefits,

2:37:08they have in here professional

2:37:09development programs.

2:37:11>> Aggressive

2:37:12>> skills. You saw it, right?

2:37:14So, there

2:37:14>> I know it's We We are currently paying

2:37:16for our professional development at

2:37:17other places.

2:37:18>> Right. Right. That's ongoing. That's

2:37:20ongoing. Now, you mentioned uh

2:37:24I think the professional development

2:37:25should be correlated to uh to the job

2:37:28that we're doing.

2:37:29You know, I mean, we do a lot of

2:37:31different things. I think it should be

2:37:33correlated to maybe finance or

2:37:37You know, you know what I'm saying? Or

2:37:39purchasing and procurement or

2:37:41uh maybe social work and things like

2:37:43that. It should be correlated to that.

2:37:45You think? To the chair to the um

2:37:47councilwoman.

2:37:47>> It should be, but everybody may not

2:37:49necessarily feel that way, but I feel

2:37:51very uh strongly about investing in the

2:37:54team that you have. You can't have all

2:37:56the myriad of subjects that come before

2:37:58us and not having people have a level of

2:38:01professional competence to be able to

2:38:03serve people well. Because again, a lot

2:38:06of times, we just don't necessarily have

2:38:08it to the tune that I feel like

2:38:10experiences that I've had and the um

2:38:13uh skills that I've been able to

2:38:14accomplish is because people actually

2:38:16made investments in me. And I wanted to

2:38:18actually be able to do that for the team

2:38:19that I have.

2:38:20>> But you know what, councilwoman, even if

2:38:22you brought someone in and they have

2:38:24what you have,

2:38:26um knowledge gets stale

2:38:28because things are constantly moving.

2:38:30And to keep up with knowledge, you must

2:38:32have continuing education through the

2:38:34chair. So, although we came in, you and

2:38:36I came in with that uh I support

2:38:40professional development even for the

2:38:42staff if we get good outcome measures

2:38:44from it. To the chair to the um

2:38:46councilwoman.

2:38:49So, I'm there I'm there with that. That

2:38:51um education means a lot to me. You need

2:38:53it for skills. And you could benefit it

2:38:55more cuz it's really it's an investment.

2:38:58And so, you'll get um paid back in the

2:39:00long run um for that.

2:39:03But you get you got to have supporting

2:39:04evidence, though, to match up I guess

2:39:07they write down what they will support

2:39:09and what they will not support.

2:39:11One thing about certifications,

2:39:14if you get a certification or something

2:39:16like that, it is should be applicable to

2:39:18the job, to the chair.

2:39:21>> I agree.

2:39:23>> [clears throat]

2:39:23>> So, I'm there. That's all I had to say.

2:39:24I got to get to this legislation with

2:39:25Rebecca. Do we need me to be here to

2:39:27vote on anything?

2:39:28>> have to bring it back next week, but

2:39:29that's fine.

2:39:29>> Yeah, we I I think we need to I I want

2:39:32to say this cuz I we're losing the

2:39:33crowd, and I want to give this its fair

2:39:36to it cuz I Councilwoman, let me say

2:39:37this to you. It's going to be actually

2:39:38surprise you.

2:39:40I think you're right about a lot of

2:39:41this. I just want to make sure

2:39:43that we actually have the gap I am I'm

2:39:46going to make sure you and Councilwoman

2:39:47Jones I just want to make sure that um

2:39:50you know, like I said, I'm I'm trying to

2:39:53act in my role as a Council President to

2:39:55make sure that even though I think it's

2:39:57important for us to make sure that we

2:39:58have rules, we also need to make sure

2:40:00that we have guidelines on how we deal

2:40:01with this. So, I'm I'm going to make

2:40:03sure I hear you out and I don't

2:40:04shortchange this. Um so, I want to

2:40:06also want to make sure that I hear from

2:40:08law, and I want to talk through a couple

2:40:09of other things with you on this as well

2:40:11if I could.

2:40:12>> And and like I said, and even when we

2:40:13had those conversations with the

2:40:14outside, this is the sentences

2:40:17the law department put Let me be just

2:40:19explicitly clear. The law department put

2:40:20it in. This was not recommended by the

2:40:22outside attorney. This was something

2:40:24that the law department put in.

2:40:26>> Okay.

2:40:27Councilman Harsh, and then Councilman

2:40:29Joseph Jones.

2:40:29>> So, uh I think we're getting a good

2:40:31preview of uh what's been set up for

2:40:34next Thursday. Um while Councilman

2:40:36Conwell is still here, next Thursday

2:40:38we're having an operations committee

2:40:40hearing at 10:00 a.m. to discuss

2:40:43proper public purpose, ethics,

2:40:45allocations of funds. Where does the law

2:40:47come in? Where does morality come in? Is

2:40:50there a clash between what people want

2:40:51to do to help folks in their

2:40:53neighborhood and what the law department

2:40:54wants to do to protect taxpayer dollars?

2:40:57I think it's a very high-level argument.

2:40:59I think it's a very high-level concern.

2:41:01I think the council lady stands correct

2:41:02on a lot of issues.

2:41:04And I think that

2:41:06uh

2:41:06opening up the hood on this subject,

2:41:09I've asked some legal experts, some

2:41:11ethical uh some professors of ethics and

2:41:14law to come in and speak about this.

2:41:16They're not affiliated with the city.

2:41:17They don't work for the city. They teach

2:41:20at various colleges in the area, and

2:41:21this is their area of expertise. So,

2:41:24next Thursday at 10:00 a.m. we're going

2:41:25to have a whole 2-hour discussion about

2:41:28ethics in government and and where this

2:41:29clashes, cuz I think the clash is real.

2:41:31And I think that council members' desire

2:41:34to help people in their neighborhood is

2:41:35legitimate and good. And I think law

2:41:37department's concern about protecting

2:41:38public dollars is also legitimate and

2:41:40good. And I think that there is a

2:41:42conflict of viewpoints. And and I think

2:41:44it's a subjective an issue.

2:41:46>> And again, I will still go back onto

2:41:47that. And that might be the case.

2:41:49>> Mhm.

2:41:49>> The subjectivity

2:41:51>> That is the issue. No, it's not even

2:41:52politics. It is the subjective nature.

2:41:55But at the end of the day, it is the

2:41:57legislature's responsibility to write

2:42:00the rules.

2:42:00>> So, I think that's exactly where the

2:42:01conflict comes in. So, Mr. President,

2:42:03the original uh 950, the one that's on

2:42:07our tablet, that struck uh that

2:42:09inserted, you know, all projects will

2:42:11reference file number 715 as a guiding

2:42:14framework. Um I don't believe many

2:42:16people objected to. I think that was

2:42:18actually language to loosen it up and

2:42:19make it more of a guidance rather than a

2:42:21strict uh prescription. I think people

2:42:23were fine with that. And I know when the

2:42:25councilwoman reached out to me the night

2:42:26before it was last uh proposed to be

2:42:28introduced, I was fine with it as well.

2:42:30Um but after that conversation, there

2:42:31was what I'm just going to refer to

2:42:33lovingly as the midnight amendments. Um

2:42:35in the midnight amendment here on this

2:42:36page, removes the sentence prior to it

2:42:40that says um

2:42:42project proposals will be submitted to

2:42:43the council and reviewed by council

2:42:44staff in the Department of Law to

2:42:46determine that the projects constitute a

2:42:48proper public purpose benefiting blah

2:42:50blah blah. And that is the strike

2:42:52through that is being proposed today at

2:42:54the table that changes in nature this

2:42:56entire thing.

2:42:57>> That was the thing that was submitted

2:42:59>> If we

2:43:00Well, it was it was never included as

2:43:02part of the original

2:43:03>> is that's not what they wanted. And I'm

2:43:04going to just be And this is this is one

2:43:05of the things that consistently happens,

2:43:08right? And I can only talk about my

2:43:09experience. I submitted the information

2:43:11back on August 18th, and you said it's

2:43:13the last minute, which was the reason

2:43:14why it wasn't listed or or

2:43:18the reason why it wasn't um

2:43:21read back in August. And so to then to

2:43:24come here on October whatever today,

2:43:27October 12th, and the information was

2:43:29still not updated or whatever, that's a

2:43:32problem.

2:43:33>> Right.

2:43:33>> And because this is this is new

2:43:34legislation. You see what I'm saying? So

2:43:36I I again, and whether people liked it

2:43:38or not, and this is the issue, is that

2:43:40whether people

2:43:42choose to like something or not like

2:43:43something, then they will just be like

2:43:45at their discretion, I'm not going to do

2:43:46it. And I wanted to to have a real

2:43:48conversation about this because it's a

2:43:50problem.

2:43:51>> on a clock, Council? Are we Are we good?

2:43:52>> We are on the clock, Council, but go

2:43:54ahead. I'm here.

2:43:55>> And I want to make sure everybody knows

2:43:56this that I'm probably, in order to make

2:43:58sure that I get the law director cuz he

2:44:00cannot escape this conversation. Yeah.

2:44:03We need him in this conversation when we

2:44:04do this, but go ahead.

2:44:05>> So so aside from procedure-wise, the

2:44:07conversation we originally had did not

2:44:08include this strike-through, but then it

2:44:10came to light later. Here's the pro-

2:44:12Here's the Here's the problem that I

2:44:13start to have.

2:44:15I disagree with the statement that it is

2:44:17our job to make laws and determine

2:44:19proper public purposes because I took an

2:44:21oath to defend the Constitution of the

2:44:22United States and Ohio, which supersedes

2:44:25the laws of the city of Cleveland. If I

2:44:27decided that my dude, John,

2:44:31who made a

2:44:33CD on mental health and wellness that is

2:44:36the greatest CD on mental health and

2:44:38wellness of all time, and I wanted to

2:44:40buy 25,000 copies for everybody in my

2:44:43ward at $10 a pop and give my dude John

2:44:45$250,000 cuz I determined that's a

2:44:47proper public purpose, I think I'm

2:44:50wrong. And I think somebody has to step

2:44:52in and tell me that I'm wrong. And I

2:44:53think the oversight in this case is the

2:44:55law department. And the law department,

2:44:57because while we might make the laws,

2:44:59the courts interpret those laws. And

2:45:01case file case from 75 years ago has

2:45:04been updated dramatically over the last

2:45:0675 years. And I would bet that case law

2:45:09would not support me buying my dude

2:45:11John's $10 CD 25,000 times, even though

2:45:14I think it's a proper public purpose.

2:45:16And that's why I think this strike out

2:45:18of the law department being involved is

2:45:20very, very dangerous for us. We need

2:45:22oversight. We are supposed to act with

2:45:24oversight. And I think that it also

2:45:26creates a problem, and this is like

2:45:27really, really important, too.

2:45:29Right now, council staff operates on the

2:45:32advice of the law department when these

2:45:34issues come up in front of them. They

2:45:36check with the people who are

2:45:38credentialed experts in this area, who

2:45:40determine whether or not something is

2:45:42appropriate for that allocation. I would

2:45:43point out, too,

2:45:45our monthly expense reports are general

2:45:47fund and have different allocations in

2:45:48casino revenue, but uh

2:45:51if a staff member were to authorize

2:45:55something that turns out to be run a

2:45:57foul of the law, because, you know, we

2:45:59do have former colleagues in jail for

2:46:01misallocation of public funds.

2:46:04That staff person then is in a tough

2:46:07spot legally if they did not follow the

2:46:10advice of the law department. Removing

2:46:11the law department from oversight

2:46:14removes the protections that our staff

2:46:16has working here.

2:46:19>> If you take the law department out and

2:46:21we tell staff, "Approve my purchase of

2:46:23John's CD." Staff goes, "Okay.

2:46:26If the courts ever come for me because

2:46:28John's CD was not a proper public

2:46:30purpose, that staff member is caught in

2:46:31the crossfire."

2:46:33And that's what we don't want to happen,

2:46:34either. We don't want our staff members

2:46:36here bearing the brunt of illegal

2:46:38choices that were made by elected

2:46:40officials. I think the guardrails are in

2:46:42place to prevent that from ever

2:46:43happening. And what we're talking about

2:46:44is is or not we should step over the

2:46:45guardrails.

2:46:46>> Okay.

2:46:47>> I think that's a very, very dangerous

2:46:48precedent to set and I'm very concerned

2:46:49about simply just this striking of this

2:46:53sentence. I think the rest of it is fine

2:46:55and I recognize a lot of the good

2:46:56purposes that the council lady wants to

2:46:58pursue this.

2:46:58>> Here's what I would like to do cuz I

2:47:00want to get a council lady opportunity

2:47:02to close. I'm going to hold this for

2:47:04further discussion, okay? Because I do

2:47:07want to make sure that we do that part

2:47:09of the thing that I think our sticking

2:47:11points is that many of the staff people

2:47:13because of the experiences that they

2:47:15have

2:47:16that they could actually be liable if

2:47:18they don't follow the the the the the

2:47:21advice of the law department. And a

2:47:23couple of them had to unfortunately go

2:47:25testify in front of some cases and I

2:47:27know what you're saying council woman is

2:47:29that you everybody is not trying to do

2:47:31anything illicit. People are just trying

2:47:34to help and I get that. But I do want to

2:47:36make sure that we get Griffin and that

2:47:39we also get a public conversation and

2:47:41vet this more, but I think we're going

2:47:43down a rabbit hole that we that I don't

2:47:45want us to go down in because um I think

2:47:47we need to vet this a little bit more,

2:47:48but I'm going to give councilman Jones

2:47:50an opportunity to say something then I

2:47:51want you to make any closing

2:47:53>> in response to councilman staff. So it

2:47:55says all projects will be submitted,

2:47:57reviewed and authorized by separate

2:47:58legislation. What is the process to

2:48:00submit, review and authorize legislation

2:48:02here in Cleveland City Council?

2:48:06>> I'm sorry.

2:48:07>> What is the process to submit, review

2:48:10and authorize separate legislation here

2:48:13in Cleveland City Council?

2:48:14>> Well, I think that if you're trying to

2:48:15get at the point if you're trying to

2:48:17make a point I believe you are

2:48:19that anything to allocate funds would

2:48:21have to go to the law department anyway.

2:48:24>> That that's just that is just my point.

2:48:26>> Right.

2:48:27>> Because again

2:48:27>> I think that amendment comes later when

2:48:29you introduce new legislation down the

2:48:31road that you don't want reviewed by the

2:48:32law department and we don't need to

2:48:34remove that barrier here.

2:48:35>> saying that.

2:48:36>> Again, all legislation goes to the law

2:48:38department, correct?

2:48:39>> All of it.

2:48:40>> Not if you bypass it.

2:48:41>> We're not bypassing it.

2:48:42>> Tell me what Tell me what legislation is

2:48:44bypassed the law department.

2:48:46>> write it into the this is

2:48:48not up for review. I mean you're

2:48:49removing project proposals submitted go

2:48:52to the law department to determine. Then

2:48:53why remove that? If it if it's going to

2:48:54the law department then why remove it?

2:48:56>> The issue is determining that the

2:48:57project constitutes a proper public

2:48:59purpose.

2:49:00>> Why wouldn't you send it to the law

2:49:01department for review?

2:49:02>> Based on the case law, it is the

2:49:03legislator's responsibility to define

2:49:06proper public purpose.

2:49:06>> my guy John CD, that should just be

2:49:09allowed.

2:49:09>> Again, is that a proper public purpose?

2:49:11Is that Did you define Did you define

2:49:14it? But so that's the that's the again

2:49:16is based on based on what? So again is

2:49:20everybody Everybody has made a

2:49:22determination that this was the guidance

2:49:25for a proper public purpose, right?

2:49:27Which is the case law. And it explicitly

2:49:29says the legislators are to define what

2:49:32a proper public purpose is. We have a

2:49:34file. So accordingly, you know, to the

2:49:37file

2:49:38and other things, no it actually isn't.

2:49:40And again, it goes back to the Supreme

2:49:42Court that says a gross misuse of the

2:49:45law. So those are the types of things

2:49:46that I think where when you evaluate

2:49:50the facts and the circumstances of the

2:49:52the situation, that's where you can be

2:49:55like, no, you know, it's not going to be

2:49:57done or anything like that. But again,

2:49:59how I will say is where where will

2:50:01professional development fall in this?

2:50:03>> And let me say this where it falls into

2:50:04this.

2:50:05>> And

2:50:05>> [laughter]

2:50:05>> and if we could, can we do this? We do

2:50:07this if we could because um

2:50:10I think we need some more advice on that

2:50:12because one of the things One of the

2:50:14things that I think is the problem that

2:50:16I think we run into as well is whenever

2:50:18we are expending these discretionary

2:50:20public dollars, everyone in the city or

2:50:25everyone in the ward would have to

2:50:26benefit. So, let me just tell you the

2:50:29strict the strict um

2:50:32what what I believe is that says to your

2:50:34point about your friend John.

2:50:36Um if I'm doing something that will

2:50:38benefit one person or a small group of

2:50:41person, then that's not a proper public

2:50:42purpose. Hence,

2:50:43>> even though

2:50:45>> We do home repair.

2:50:46>> [laughter]

2:50:47>> But we do that through a process where

2:50:49we get money to

2:50:51an organization.

2:50:51>> Our organization

2:50:53does that. But my point is this, to your

2:50:55point is that even though I hear what

2:50:57you're saying, I think we're and

2:51:00sometimes if you talk to different 10

2:51:02different lawyers, you might get 10

2:51:03different answers. But if you look at it

2:51:05from that standpoint, if I am saying I'm

2:51:08going to put casino dollars for

2:51:11my staff person to benefit, then that

2:51:14may not mean that everybody has the same

2:51:18access to that kind of thing.

2:51:20So what I have been telling my staff,

2:51:22why don't we just put it in the budget

2:51:25so that we can actually have an

2:51:27opportunity to provide that. And this

2:51:29also why I increased our discretionary

2:51:32from 1200 where it's now we actually

2:51:34have 2500.

2:51:36>> Mhm.

2:51:36>> But I get that. But

2:51:38>> But

2:51:38I know [laughter] no no I'm

2:51:40going to bring up the discretionary

2:51:41dollars, right? So there are council

2:51:44members who have used the discretionary

2:51:46dollars to supplement the salaries of

2:51:49their current employees, right?

2:51:52If you say and again this is my thing of

2:51:54trying to have some of my

2:51:57employees actually go to some

2:51:58conferences, right? Do you know the

2:52:00council the cost of many of these

2:52:02conferences that far exceed

2:52:05the $2500,

2:52:07right? So therefore it will put it in a

2:52:09situation that the council wouldn't

2:52:13community members wouldn't get whatever

2:52:15they have versus the professional

2:52:17development that would be offered. And

2:52:18again,

2:52:20people choose to do manage their offices

2:52:23the the way that they do and like I said

2:52:24there it is not been the

2:52:27preview of this body thus far to make

2:52:29the necessary investments which I think

2:52:32um

2:52:33members should get it. So, you know,

2:52:35that's just where we are, you know. And

2:52:36like I said, and again, if people don't

2:52:38want to do it, that is fine. If people

2:52:40feel like there are other people better

2:52:42equipped to define a proper public

2:52:45purpose, that is fine, too. I'm just

2:52:47going back of what people have said. If

2:52:48we're not going to use this case law, we

2:52:50just don't bring it. It's not

2:52:51applicable. But according to the case

2:52:52law,

2:52:54the legislators define proper public

2:52:55public public purpose.

2:52:56>> email that to everybody as well?

2:52:57>> I I I have sent all of this information

2:52:59back back in August. So, I will send it

2:53:01again, and we can go

2:53:03>> your PowerPoint

2:53:04cuz that PowerPoint was actually a good

2:53:06PowerPoint.

2:53:07Um go ahead and

2:53:08Mr. Harrison did Mr. Johnson

2:53:10>> And again, you don't have to be a lawyer

2:53:11to know that the legislature's

2:53:12responsibility

2:53:13>> You got to be a lawyer to practice law

2:53:14in America, and I don't think there's

2:53:16one of those in the room. So, I think

2:53:17that 75-year-old case law could have a

2:53:19lot of ramifications

2:53:20>> This is the one that they said say it

2:53:22again.

2:53:22>> Councilman Jones has a question on this.

2:53:24>> And again, no, I'm just going to say but

2:53:25this is the case law that the attorneys

2:53:27indicated that we that we utilize.

2:53:30>> All right, if we could this this is why

2:53:32a 75-year-old case law I'm sure it's

2:53:33been revisited.

2:53:34>> okay? That's not what the lawyer said.

2:53:36>> then we're going to end on that note.

2:53:38>> If they would they would have used

2:53:39something else, right?

2:53:40>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know,

2:53:42sometimes and this is where, you know,

2:53:44the politics come in. And and so, I'm

2:53:46not going to deal with the politics. I'm

2:53:48going to talk about my situation.

2:53:50Um and I'm so glad I didn't give out one

2:53:52gift card last year. Not one.

2:53:56So, let me say this.

2:54:00I've sat here at this table and I saw us

2:54:02give our stadium away

2:54:05to a rich billionaire

2:54:07and then talk about collapsing it. I've

2:54:10sat here and we've argued in years past

2:54:13when Keisha Johnson had a grass cutting

2:54:15program and others had grass cutting

2:54:18programs and I wanted to start a grass

2:54:19cutting program in my neighborhood for

2:54:21senior citizens. I wanted to offer

2:54:23services to them, and it was difficult

2:54:25for me to be able to do so.

2:54:27And then John James

2:54:29worked with me to be able to make that

2:54:31happen. When we talk about proper

2:54:33public, you know, process here. You

2:54:36know, there will be those who will argue

2:54:38we shouldn't give our senior citizens or

2:54:40citizens Bruce. We shouldn't fix their

2:54:43homes. We shouldn't repair their homes.

2:54:45We shouldn't even be involved with

2:54:47trying to deal with the lead issue in

2:54:49homes with public money and resources.

2:54:52You will have all those kinds of

2:54:53arguments all the time. time. And so one

2:54:56of the things I will say is that, you

2:54:59know, sitting here at this table, we

2:55:00can't even share, you know, and one of

2:55:03the problems I have, Mr. Mr. President,

2:55:05first I want to say thank you, Mr.

2:55:06President, for increasing

2:55:09the the account that hadn't been

2:55:11increased in 40 years in terms of our

2:55:13expenses and our our our monthly

2:55:16allotments. And then I want to also

2:55:18thank you for your leadership in terms

2:55:19of trying to make sure the wheels stay

2:55:21on the wagon. So I understand the

2:55:22precautions. I also understand the

2:55:24precautions of my colleague, Mr.

2:55:26Hairston, at the other end of the table.

2:55:28But Mrs. House Jones is absolutely 110%

2:55:31correct. Um

2:55:34the state of Ohio didn't elect us into

2:55:35public office. The citizens of the city

2:55:38elected us into public office. It is our

2:55:40responsibility, Mr. Chairman,

2:55:43to Mrs. House, as she so eloquently

2:55:46stated, to make the laws. We are

2:55:49legislators. It is our responsibility to

2:55:51make the laws. And then no matter what

2:55:53those laws are, whether the

2:55:55administration like those laws or not,

2:55:57they are our laws. They are our

2:55:59guidelines. And everything goes through

2:56:02the process of the legal department.

2:56:04There's not one piece of legislation,

2:56:06Mr. President, that has not went through

2:56:08the administrative process and went

2:56:10through the law department to be

2:56:11approved. We sit here today and approved

2:56:14$1.5 million grant. And it's a open-end

2:56:17process. We all know it sitting here at

2:56:18the table. We know that the

2:56:19administration we've given them the the

2:56:22purpose to expand, you know, to accept

2:56:24and to expand. And we don't know where

2:56:27they're going to go with all the

2:56:28expenditures.

2:56:29Uh we just gave them that whole blanket

2:56:31openly. And and when we started asking

2:56:33about where would be and what the

2:56:35guidelines would be, it's more

2:56:36open-ended. And I understand why it has

2:56:39to be flexible, too. So, at the end of

2:56:41the day, we have a one side of the town

2:56:44that unfortunately through block grant

2:56:46money it is so difficult to use the

2:56:49block grant resources to help people out

2:56:51because of this argument here, how it

2:56:53has be- become so encumbered. And it's

2:56:56not encumbered, Mr. Mr. President,

2:56:58because of the simple fact of of of what

2:57:02Washington is saying, it's encumbered

2:57:04because we have encumbered it over the

2:57:06years. And we have made it difficult to

2:57:08use here at City Council, and we had

2:57:10that conversation in the last session of

2:57:12Council about how difficult it was and

2:57:14how we have encumbered and put rules and

2:57:16regulations on top of rules and

2:57:18regulations. And now you have to spend

2:57:20so much money just to get out so much

2:57:22money. And so, with that being said, I

2:57:25support uh Mrs. House Jones. Uh she has

2:57:28the law her side. Um it is very clear.

2:57:32Uh you can't get no clearer than what it

2:57:34is. We choose what the public purpose

2:57:36is. We I've seen us sit here and give

2:57:39multi-millionaires, billionaires

2:57:42we've given the the the Cavs money.

2:57:45We've sit over here and given Dolan's

2:57:47money. So, when it comes to programs

2:57:49that help our people, um I think all of

2:57:52us sitting here and any future

2:57:54legislator sitting here at the table,

2:57:55whenever they put legislation together,

2:57:57no matter what we do here at this table,

2:57:59it always go through the law department.

2:58:01It always go through our staff. And I

2:58:04think that we would not be right if we

2:58:07didn't do what the people sent us down

2:58:09here to legislate and make rules. So,

2:58:11with that, Mr. Chairman, to Mrs. House

2:58:13Jones, I commend you

2:58:15for being on this side of the table

2:58:17as well as uh putting forth this

2:58:20particular piece here so that we can

2:58:22have some flexibility in it so that it's

2:58:25so not so rigid where someone else's

2:58:27perspective and opinion eliminates the

2:58:30capacity to help people. And that's why

2:58:32we're I know I'm down here for it. I

2:58:34know many of you all who are here are

2:58:36also for that same purpose. And I won't

2:58:38belabor it, Mr. Chairman, and that's

2:58:40where I stand on this issue.

2:58:41>> Thank you. As we close, I just want to

2:58:43state this.

2:58:44We didn't have enough money

2:58:46since this man gave enough money back in

2:58:482001.

2:58:50And the first time we got enough money

2:58:52is when Blaine Griffin became Council

2:58:54President in 2023.

2:58:56>> And so thank you.

2:58:57>> on. No, no, let me finish. Let me

2:58:58finish. We got extra council people.

2:59:01We've gotten all of these other things.

2:59:03So, I understand and totally support

2:59:06that we all have unique needs in our

2:59:08wards and we want to make sure we do

2:59:09this right. I also just have an enormous

2:59:12responsibility to make sure that I look

2:59:14out after you and every single person at

2:59:17this table whether they like it or not

2:59:19because at the end of the day I take my

2:59:21responsibility serious to make sure that

2:59:23I don't put this council in an untenable

2:59:25position. I think the councilwoman made

2:59:27some very good points today, okay? And I

2:59:30think that we do need to make sure that

2:59:32we get some input from some other

2:59:34sectors that are not here. And I do want

2:59:36us to understand that as she she was

2:59:39very she very well prepared. And one of

2:59:41the things that I would tell everybody

2:59:43is that also that person that lives on

2:59:45Buckner, that person lives on Huff and

2:59:47Lee Road

2:59:48it's never enough that we can give. You

2:59:50hear the people come here every night at

2:59:52public comment, y'all don't give no

2:59:54money. Everybody in the city wants our

2:59:57dollars. And all we want to do is try to

2:59:59make sure that we don't put any council

3:00:01member in an untenable position because

3:00:03all of you guys mean well and I would

3:00:06take it personally just like any other

3:00:08council president if we get in a

3:00:10position even accidentally. You said

3:00:12something last week on the floor, one of

3:00:13my favorite quotes from Ms. Fannie Lou

3:00:15Hamer.

3:00:16Whether you shoot me on accident or on

3:00:18purpose, it don't matter if I'm dead.

3:00:20And that's what I'm trying to make sure,

3:00:22and that's why I want to treat this with

3:00:23an abundance of caution. Okay? Um but I

3:00:27will say this, Councilwoman,

3:00:29I know that you don't always agree with

3:00:31my tactics, but anytime that you've come

3:00:33to me with some of these issues, I've

3:00:34tried to work through them. So, believe

3:00:36me, nobody wants to get this fixed more

3:00:38than me right now, um but I want to make

3:00:40sure that we do it with an abundance of

3:00:42caution. That's all I'm asking.

3:00:43>> And I I I totally appreciate that, but I

3:00:46want to be clear, you know, here is

3:00:49when you have attorneys here that throw

3:00:51in your face that professional

3:00:53development isn't and then bring this

3:00:54case law to the front, cuz that's what

3:00:57was done, and that's the reason why I'm

3:00:58bringing it forward.

3:00:59>> Okay.

3:01:00>> But you you know, um like I don't know

3:01:02what my job is.

3:01:04I I can't speak for no other members of

3:01:06Council, but I am very clear on my

3:01:08charge as a legislator, as I'm going

3:01:10into my 12th year being a such. So, you

3:01:13know, we'll have a conversation and then

3:01:14we can go from there, but

3:01:15>> Thank you.

3:01:16>> That's it. I'll talk to y'all later.

3:01:18>> Uh this Committee of Finance, Diversity,

3:01:20Equity, and Inclusion is concluded.

3:01:22Thanks, everybody. Uh till next week.

3:01:39>> [music]

3:01:45[music]

3:02:00[music]

3:02:10[music]

3:02:20>> Mhm.