2026-10-22 - City Council Work Session

00:38Good afternoon. I'm going to go ahead

00:39and call this meeting to order.

00:41Uh the mayor is running a little bit

00:42late, so he will be joining us and I

00:45he's instructed me to go ahead and kick

00:46us off.

00:48Um every all council members are here. I

00:49think we just have a couple folks a

00:51little detained, but we are at quorum,

00:53so I'm going to go ahead and

00:54uh begin.

00:57Uh Madam Clerk, could you please call

00:58the roll?

01:00>> Good afternoon. Um Mayor Williams? He's

01:03running late. Mayor Pro Tem?

01:06>> Clavijo?

01:07>> Here.

01:07>> Councilmember Nate Baker?

01:09>> Here.

01:09>> Councilmember Barris?

01:10>> Here.

01:11>> Councilmember Cook?

01:12>> Here.

01:13>> Councilmember Corbett?

01:14>> Here.

01:15>> Councilmember Reese?

01:18He's here.

01:21>> Thank you. Uh colleagues, any

01:23announcements?

01:24>> Here.

01:25>> [clears throat]

01:28>> Does anyone have any announcements? Go

01:29ahead, Councilmember Baker. Thank you.

01:31>> Yeah, um just wanted to uh put out a

01:34reminder that the last work session we

01:36discussed

01:37um having a discussion under other

01:40matters on this work session regarding

01:43um

01:44homeless and investments by the city,

01:46status of that, and then also the

01:48encampment policy.

01:49The other thing I'll say is um

01:52early voting is happening and go go out

01:54and vote. Vote early. Thanks.

01:59>> Mr. Mayor, would you like to take over

02:01or would you like me to continue?

02:04Just announcements.

02:06>> Um you you can continue and either one

02:08works for me.

02:08>> Thank you. Any other uh council members

02:10have any announcements?

02:13Go ahead, Council Member Burton and

02:14Council Member Cook.

02:16>> Good afternoon. Thank you all who are

02:17joining us both in council chambers as

02:19well as um watching virtually. So, I

02:21want to give a quick shout-out asked to

02:23give a um shout-out to a city employee,

02:25Mr. Larry Holman, who works with

02:26environmental services for being

02:28creative and bringing bikes to the fire

02:30station for kids giveaway. I think he

02:31repurposed the bike. So, I was asked by

02:33one of my not current colleagues, but

02:35former colleagues, to actually uplift

02:36that. And I did want to make note for a

02:38public that um if you have received a

02:40delayed response for me from email, I'm

02:42currently the only council member who

02:43does not have staff support right now.

02:45So, I'm trying to manage that on my own.

02:46So, please give me grace as I figure out

02:48how to answer and respond to emails and

02:50get things scheduled. So, thank you.

02:54>> Thank you, Council Member Cook, and then

02:55Council Member Kopack.

02:59And then Council Member Ruest.

03:02>> Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone.

03:03Today, we're going to have a

03:04presentation by our local housing

03:06authority, DHA. Um I want to go ahead

03:09and address this ahead of time because

03:10people have accused me of being

03:11antagonistic. So, I want to be really

03:13clear up front. I've spent my

03:15professional career dedicated to

03:17ensuring that my community is safely

03:19housed. I am and have always been a more

03:23widely used

03:26to succeed here in Durham, which

03:28necessitates then that DHA succeeds here

03:30in Durham.

03:32I've called on DHA publicly, not for any

03:35bad faith reasons, but because it's

03:37important to bring our institutions

03:38under scrutiny.

03:40It's important for the residents who

03:41reside in the properties owned, managed,

03:43and subsidized by DHA. And it's

03:45important for the taxpayers being asked

03:47to be the burden of a falling of a

03:48failing system.

03:50DHA is a public-facing institution

03:52serving some of the most vulnerable

03:54residents in Durham. However, we're

03:56continuously told that we have no way to

03:57hold DHA accountable, even though it

03:59impacts everyone in this city.

04:01Board meetings are public, in fact, but

04:03they are not space for discourse within

04:05those meetings.

04:06Uh documents are very difficult to find,

04:09and public record requests go unanswered

04:11for months at a time,

04:13if they are answered at all.

04:16Meanwhile, DHA has been in troubled or

04:18failing status by every metric for

04:20years. And it's not just that audits and

04:22reports have found issues around

04:23financial reporting, record keeping,

04:25cash management, and habitability

04:27standards. It's also that our residents

04:29are living in unimaginable conditions

04:31and are reaching out for help. And those

04:32same residents are blamed time and time

04:34again for their own conditions and for

04:36DHA's mismanagement.

04:38So, my questions and demand for

04:39transparency may be called antagonistic,

04:42but I take very seriously my my

04:43responsibility to keep the people of

04:45Durham safe.

04:46In a time of obvious pushes towards

04:48fascism, I hope that everyone, my

04:50colleagues on council and at DHA

04:52included, will remember why the ability

04:55to question is so protected in our

04:56democracy and how much institutions can

04:58be improved through accountability. It's

05:01my hope that we continue to have honest

05:02conversations that center our residents

05:04what and their well-being. And I look

05:06forward to having some of that

05:07conversation today.

05:10>> Thank you, Council member Copac, and

05:11then Council member Rist.

05:13>> Yeah, thank you. Hello, everyone. Thanks

05:14for joining us today. Uh looking forward

05:16to a good work session. So, I just

05:18wanted to make a a quick announcement

05:19about the November 10th uh

05:22uh community meeting on the

05:24Roxboro-Mangum plan for those who are

05:26interested. Uh it will be November 10th,

05:286:00 to 7:30 at 311 Dowd Street, which

05:31is the former Global Scholars Academy.

05:33So, for anyone interested, um please do

05:35join the meeting that uh that evening.

05:37Thanks.

05:42>> Good, Council member Rist. Sorry.

05:43>> Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem. Good eve- good

05:44evening. Good afternoon, colleagues, uh

05:46residents, staff. Good to see you all.

05:48Just a couple announcements. As I've

05:49mentioned in the past,

05:51I want to shout out again the work of an

05:53innovative coalition in Durham called

05:54the Durham Benefits Access Coalition.

05:57It's a collaboration between public

05:58bodies, non-profit leaders, and the

06:00private sector, including Duke

06:01University, to make sure residents can

06:03claim the benefits they qualify for.

06:05That includes WIC benefits, SNAP

06:07benefits, and also earned income tax

06:09benefits if they file taxes. We are

06:12making a special appeal to build a bank

06:14of potential volunteers for tax season

06:16to help families file taxes. The average

06:19EITC tax credit is almost $3,000, but

06:22you have to file taxes to get that

06:23credit. So, we're building a bank of

06:25volunteers. If you're interested, please

06:26contact me, or you can go online to

06:28durhambenefits.org and register there.

06:31The second thing is I wanted to say a

06:32big shout out to Denise Chaplin and

06:34Emily McIntosh from DPR. They led us out

06:37there yesterday to a bunch of the courts

06:39that we're going to resurface with the

06:40big investment in CAP that the council

06:42has made. We looked at Rock Quarry Park,

06:44with the Whipperwill, we looked at

06:46Elmira and Cook Road. In all those

06:48courts, there's different

06:50there's different conditions, different

06:52site characteristics, and so forth. So,

06:53we're going carefully through to figure

06:55out what the plan is for each of those

06:56courts as we resurface them to make sure

06:57we resurface now, and that resurfacing

06:59can last a good long time. So, I just

07:01want to give a shout out to the tennis

07:03community that's been really advocating

07:04for this work to let you know that

07:06there's going to be a plan developed by

07:07the by the end of the year to be clear

07:09which courts are getting what kind of

07:11resurfacing, and how what that's going

07:12to cost. So, we'll look at a bunch of

07:13options, but that work is going forward,

07:15and I want to assure folks in the tennis

07:16community that we're doing all we can to

07:18make sure those courts are in good

07:19condition and and playable for all kinds

07:22of for all kinds of players.

07:24Thank you, Mr. Mayor Mayor Pro Tem.

07:28>> Right. Just briefly, I'll step out for

07:31just 2 minutes and come right back, but

07:33um

07:35it was stated earlier, there is early

07:36voting going on right now.

07:38Um

07:39I'm

07:40I'm appreciative of the numbers

07:43that we're seeing. I think we can do

07:44more

07:45and we should do more. Again, I want to

07:48state that I am publicly

07:52uh calling on folks to

07:54uh

07:55do not support or vote against, rather,

07:57the three of constitutional amendments.

08:00Uh vote no or vote against it

08:03for proper language to make sure that um

08:06we can continue to do what we need to do

08:08as a city. It is a play on words and I

08:10think that is playing on folks'

08:11intelligence. Um

08:14So, yeah, make sure you go out and vote

08:16and and engage and let's make sure we do

08:18our part for the rest of the state. Um

08:21part of the role of mayor is setting the

08:23agenda and I was uh at a mayor's meeting

08:26at the last work session.

08:28Uh I was not aware that we were taking

08:30up the policy that's already in play for

08:33homelessness and getting encampment

08:35today, so

08:37can someone correct me if that's the

08:38case?

08:43>> I can help with that if you'd like.

08:45>> Yeah, well

08:46>> I think we were just trying to um

08:49if I'm not mistaken, there was not a

08:52consensus on dealing with the encampment

08:55policy. We were just going to take up

08:56the discussion again.

08:58So, both you and Council Member Reese

09:00could participate, but um if I'm

09:03co-

09:05what was clear was that there wasn't

09:06consensus on council on how to proceed

09:10based on Council Member Baker's initial

09:12resolution um that there was

09:15uh

09:16there was also clear

09:18uh feedback from staff around the

09:21challenges um

09:24that

09:25we could pass a policy, but that there's

09:27not necessarily capacity to implement

09:28that policy and so that that's kind of

09:31the the prickly part of all of it.

09:33>> Okay. I So, my understanding is this is

09:38this is work that's already underway. I

09:40know I've requested each of you to

09:41provide your feedback to staff so that

09:44staff can bring forth to the council a

09:47whole a whole list of consideration for

09:49us to be advised on. And that would be

09:51the actual discussion. It appears that

09:53we're being a bit duplicative at this

09:54point.

09:57>> So, yeah, [clears throat]

09:59uh Mayor Pro Tem Cabaldon was obviously

10:01chairing the last work session. What we

10:04decided was to bring this topic up as a

10:07general topic, hear an update um from

10:10the city manager's office, and have a

10:12discussion about how to or whether to

10:15proceed on any direction.

10:19That was my understanding of the

10:20takeaway, because I think that there

10:21were folks who were saying, "We want

10:25staff to move forward, and staff is

10:26already moving forward."

10:28Uh Mayor Pro Tem raised uh

10:30putting together a some sort of task

10:33force or subcommittee. Um I, of course,

10:36presented uh a draft uh resolution. So,

10:40we weren't moving forward with any of

10:41those. We were just going to have an

10:43update, have general discussion. If

10:45there's nothing to discuss, then we'll

10:47just move on. But, we wanted to circle

10:49back while we had the full council.

10:52>> All right. Well, how does this

10:53differentiate from what we're already

10:55doing with the homeless reduction plan

10:57that has capacity for an encampment

11:00policy in it?

11:01Am I misunderstanding that?

11:04And I don't know if this is a question

11:06for you, Mr. Manager. Is there

11:08like an encampment policy, is that a

11:10part of the plan that we put forth?

11:15>> Thank you, Mayor. Council members,

11:16[clears throat] at the at the last work

11:17session, um the comments I offered were

11:20that uh staff would would be bringing

11:24forward an encampment policy. I believe

11:26at the end of that work session, I

11:27committed to council [clears throat]

11:29um that I would get a timeline from the

11:32department, which I did. I also

11:33committed to Council that I would share

11:35that with them. I do not think I did, so

11:37I'm prepared to share that information

11:39today about what the timing would be of

11:41a staff generated policy. I think what

11:43also

11:45we covered in that meeting is um

11:49that

11:50Well,

11:51let me leave it there. We would be

11:52prepared to answer the question of when

11:54a staff policy would come forward and

11:56that we also would be prepared to follow

11:59direction from Council. If Council

12:00established a policy independent of that

12:03staff work.

12:03>> Recording stopped.

12:05>> Okay.

12:06Um

12:09Okay.

12:11>> Thank you. I appreciate the update from

12:14Manager Ferguson cuz that is correct.

12:16So, I think later on what we can just

12:17determine is if we once we get that

12:19information, which was part of

12:22where we left it, if that's sufficient

12:24or not.

12:25>> Okay. I and Council member Baker, I know

12:27we you proposed a policy. I think what

12:30I'm trying to avoid is we place in the

12:33budget that this is what work we're

12:35going to advise staff to do.

12:37And

12:39I don't know, it feels a little reactive

12:40because we've been addressing the

12:42homelessness sprints, which is a part of

12:43the overall work. So, I'm trying to

12:45figure out what what is the policy if

12:47there's already a policy in play.

12:50If there's already action being taken,

12:52then what are we doing?

12:55So, I'm trying to differentiate what is

12:57being proposed versus what ideas I've

12:59asked everyone to share back to staff so

13:01that they can bring that to us for

13:02consideration of everyone.

13:09>> Cuz I think that what Council Baker's

13:12resolution proposed was like providing

13:13storage units for folks and like having

13:15a grievance process. So, I'm not sure if

13:17that was covered. So, do we just want to

13:18put it on other matters to get the just

13:20to move on?

13:23>> I definitely want to move it on move on.

13:24I just want to make sure I'm as we're

13:25going into it I don't I don't I want to

13:27make sure what we're covering is is if

13:30we're covering something and we're doing

13:31that.

13:32But I also don't want to have this

13:34conversation when we have it and then

13:35also staff comes back at the timeline

13:37and have their conversation. Let me go

13:39to Council Member Cook or Baker.

13:42>> Well, I'll just say it's not duplicative

13:43of the plan that we adopted. Those are

13:45two different things. This is

13:47um

13:48really about protecting civil rights of

13:50homeless people

13:52um and property, right? So, um

13:56that is what is in my draft. I don't

13:59know what staff are going to present.

14:01That is something

14:02that we will wait on and we'll get a

14:04little bit of an update from the city

14:05manager's office. So,

14:07any other matters?

14:09>> Yeah, just briefly that this has come up

14:11for us multiple times over the last

14:14couple of years because we do not have a

14:16policy in place. And I do think that

14:18it's been there's been enough council

14:19members now that have talked about

14:21wanting to have a policy in place that

14:22it is forthcoming as part of the

14:24strategic plan, but the strategic plan

14:26doesn't have details. So, there is no

14:29necessarily time frame. There is no

14:31requirement of what is included in that.

14:32We don't have any harm reduction

14:34strategies that are going on um

14:36necessarily as part of that plan. I

14:38mean, obviously we hope that our staff

14:40is looking at everything with a with an

14:41eye towards um

14:42harm reduction. Um but we don't have

14:45those things sort of designated out and

14:47so if we want to give that guidance and

14:49direction, that is I think what we're

14:51doing here and and kind of what we

14:53talked about at the last work session.

14:56>> Thank you. I think

14:58we should wait till other matters and we

15:00should hear from staff and I think that

15:02will help inform the next steps after

15:04that.

15:06>> Yeah, we'll do that. We'll do that. Uh

15:08thank you all. Uh could you just

15:09continue on for a few more minutes and

15:11I'll be right back.

15:13>> Yes, did everyone do announcements?

15:16Yeah, okay.

15:18I think so. Just I don't think I said

15:20anything and I just want to quickly

15:21remind folks that it's fester a ton of

15:24festivals happening right now. Fringe is

15:26happening. Uh in a couple weeks, I think

15:28there's a pilgrimage at the at the Pauli

15:30Murray Center on October 31st. Um

15:34there's a lot of incredible things

15:35happening throughout the city uh through

15:37the fall and so want to encourage

15:38residents to go out um and at many of

15:42them are uh free or low cost. Um also

15:45this Saturday, I think is Puppalooza,

15:48which is a hilarious lovely event where

15:50people dress their dogs up as in

15:52costumes and they get um

15:55uh awards if they win things and that is

15:57uh you know, this we're we're in

15:59interesting times, people. So, if a dog

16:00costume's going to make you have some

16:02joy in your life or a festival, my

16:04suggestion is to go and and do that.

16:06>> Remember you're one of the judges of

16:07that, right?

16:08>> Huh?

16:08>> Aren't you judging costumes?

16:10>> I was not going to Yes, I get to judge

16:11dog costumes this year. Yes.

16:14>> And then Councilman Kopcik as well.

16:16>> Yeah. This is honestly one of the

16:18highlights of my fall.

16:19>> Don't judge my dog too harshly.

16:20>> Okay.

16:21>> [laughter]

16:21>> I will not judge Little Rio harshly. Um

16:24there will be no nepotism allowed

16:25though. Um

16:27>> [laughter]

16:27>> Thank you. Um

16:29can I please uh next up was priority

16:31items by uh city manager.

16:34>> Thank you, Madam [clears throat] Mayor

16:35Pro Tem, members of Council. The City

16:37Manager's office just has one priority

16:38item and that is that for agenda item

16:40number two, this is the FY 2027-28

16:43budget development schedule. There's

16:45also a brief presentation with this

16:46item.

16:48Thank you.

16:49>> Thank you, Madam Attorney.

16:52>> Thank you, Madam Mayor Pro Tem, members

16:53of the Council. It's good to see you.

16:54The City Attorney's office has no

16:55priority items today.

16:58>> Thank you.

16:59Uh

17:00Madam Clerk.

17:02>> Good afternoon, Mayor Pro Tem, Council

17:04members and staff. Um the city

17:07the city Thank you. The City Clerk's

17:09office has no priority items. I do have

17:12the BCCT report for Durham City-County

17:17Environmental Affairs Board. Um

17:21the vote is for Jefferson S. Crawford.

17:24And that's the end of my report.

17:26>> Thank you so much.

17:28Next up I have a public comment period.

17:30Uh I have two folks here signed up um

17:34virtually and then two in person. Madam

17:36Clerk, is that correct?

17:41>> Oop. No, I have five in person.

17:43>> Okay. Well, we'll need to get to in

17:45person. I might need a little help.

17:46Okay. Okay, thank you. So, I'm going to

17:48start with the virtual folks. Uh I have

17:49Ms. Jacqueline Wagstaff uh as the first

17:51public speaker today.

17:58Thank you, Ms. Wagstaff. Good afternoon.

18:00Can Okay, we can hear you. Uh thank you

18:02for being with us. You have 3 minutes.

18:04>> Okay, thank you.

18:06Uh first I just want one last time to

18:08say thank uh the city manager,

18:12uh the chief the new chief of police,

18:14and Councilwoman Burroughs for assisting

18:17us in the Fayetteville Street corridor

18:18with our situation on on the pilot

18:21Fayetteville Street strip.

18:23And I just want to say we really

18:24appreciate it. We still got a lot of

18:26work to do, but you did a great job. But

18:28what I'm here for today, I wish the

18:30mayor had stuck around because I had

18:32some questions for him based on some

18:34comments that he made Monday night at

18:36the City Council meeting. Um

18:40I went and did some homework of my own.

18:43And he announced that he had obtained a

18:45$175,000

18:47grant that was written by I'm assuming

18:49his

18:50out of the office of the mayor. Well, I

18:52have some questions about that. And the

18:54first question is, when was the office

18:57of the mayor established? Because based

19:00on the charter that's built in for the

19:02city of Durham, the structure of the

19:04operation of the charter says that this

19:06council is a council-managerial form of

19:09government where the city council

19:11employs the city manager, city clerk,

19:14and the city attorney. And the city

19:16manager oversees the day-to-day

19:18operations of the administrative

19:20department.

19:21That's clear in the charter. It does not

19:24state that there's an office of the

19:26mayor. It does not state that the mayor

19:27writes grants. It does not state that

19:29the mayor has a staff that writes

19:31grants. So, my question would be that I

19:34did some research on the $175,000

19:37grant. It came from a beverage lobbying

19:41organization, the Beverage Association.

19:43The mayor has a has restaurant, and I'm

19:46assuming he's a part of that. So, that

19:48would be a little conflictual. Then, I

19:50would like to know

19:52one, when was the office of the mayor

19:54established officially? The um I would

19:57like to know that his assistant he

19:59stated his assistant wrote the grant.

20:02When was the authority given to an

20:04assistant to the mayor to grant right?

20:06And if that was given, what account does

20:09this money go into? And how are these

20:11funds dispersed? And where as a citizen

20:14can we go on the city website and find

20:17that process so that if there are other

20:20organizations out there that would like

20:21to access that $175,000,

20:25where would they do that? And who makes

20:26the decisions on who gets that money?

20:29Because as the mayor stated Monday, he

20:31said he gave the money to certain

20:34organizations as

20:36for whatever reason, food insecurity.

20:38So, I have a lot of questions about that

20:40office of the mayor establishment and

20:43some of the duties that he has taken on

20:46based on not the charter, but based on

20:49whatever policy that y'all may have. And

20:51I would like to be directed to those

20:52policies. So, I will be submitting these

20:55questions in writing to all the council

20:57members and the city attorney for

20:59clarity on this. Thank you.

21:02>> Thank you.

21:04Uh The next speaker I have is Karen

21:06Boswell, who's also a virtual speaker.

21:11>> Hi.

21:12>> Good afternoon.

21:14Thank you for being with us.

21:15>> Uh you have 3 minutes.

21:17>> Yes, ma'am. Good afternoon. Uh I'm so

21:20sorry

21:21the Mayor Williams couldn't stick around

21:24for this part. Um

21:26>> Ms. Boswell, he is here.

21:28>> Oh, is he? Okay, I didn't know if he

21:30Okay, I didn't Oh, he's back. Hey, how

21:32are you? You must just got back. Okay.

21:34Anyway, let me I only got 3 minutes. So,

21:36anyway, um part of my business uh Apply

21:39Pressure Coordinator LLC originated in

21:41Bahama, North Carolina, is uh I like to

21:44document, investigate, and expose.

21:47Uh so, here we go.

21:48My name is Karen Boswell.

21:51I'm standing or virtually before you to

21:54demonstrate severe

21:56irregular irregularity, selective

21:59enforcement, and systemic denial of

22:02equal protection under the law.

22:04The administrative and judicial record

22:06establishes a clear disparity of

22:08treatment and characterizes systemic

22:10narcissistic abuse by proxy and direct

22:13North Carolina

22:15law violations. Example, abuse of

22:18process weaponized in the court. My

22:20abuser, Robert Kirkland Harris,

22:23has been permitted to repeatedly file ex

22:26parte 50B protection orders, false

22:28police reports, charges, baseline

22:30criminal allegations without required

22:33judicial screening. This continued

22:36malicious

22:37prosecution and abuse of pro process

22:40under North Carolina common law, which

22:42I've stated below.

22:43Falsifying criminal reports, uh there's

22:46been selective prosecution and un pu

22:51unpunished proxy violations. Sorry, my

22:53glasses are fogging.

22:54>> [gasps]

22:55>> Third-party family associates, including

22:57Sharika Harding and Durker Parker,

23:01are engaged and documented physical

23:03assault, cyberstalking, and stalking

23:05with complete immunity from prosecution.

23:08Sherika Harding, a drug dealer, gang

23:11member, directly related to personnel

23:14the assistant district attorney's

23:16office,

23:17clerk of courts, had issued direct

23:19threats, caused property damage, engaged

23:21in stalking with zero legal

23:23consequences.

23:24Judicial misapplication of standards,

23:28judge Hall

23:30routinely failed to apply mandatory

23:32North Carolina statute criteria, issuing

23:35invalid ex parte orders, entertaining

23:38improper involuntary commitment

23:41petitions against me.

23:44While my active Chapter 50B protective

23:46order against Mr. Harris remained

23:48unserved and pending.

23:51Official misconduct, falsifying records,

23:53law enforcement officers including MP

23:55Strickland acknowledged generating

23:57inaccurate official reports, engaged in

24:00administrative deflection, dismissed

24:02documented safety concerns to shield

24:04internal failures.

24:06Discriminatory intent, unenforced

24:08violent crimes. Robert Kirkland Harris

24:11explicitly admitted on recording to

24:13physically choking me,

24:16stating his actions were motivated by

24:18white privilege.

24:21Because Harris maintained

24:25>> Thank you, Ms. Boswell.

24:33>> All right, thank you.

24:34>> [clears throat]

24:35>> Now, we'll move to our in-person

24:36speakers.

24:38Uh Chris Pearlstein and

24:39>> Mary Williams.

24:40Um Jacqueline Westaff was signed up for

24:43item four, too.

24:45Um

24:46it was on the online

24:48the system didn't pull it correctly like

24:50it was supposed to.

24:51>> Item four, okay. Right now, I'm still on

24:53public comments.

24:54>> Okay. Okay.

24:56>> All right.

24:57>> Thank you.

24:57>> What I

24:58>> also saying earlier she has folks for

24:59public comment that aren't on your

25:01sheet.

25:01>> Okay, could you update me on um maybe

25:04just send me just a quick note on who's

25:06the names for who's here.

25:09Or there are people that are virtual

25:11that did not populate here?

25:13>> Um no, all of our virtual speakers

25:16>> Okay.

25:17Okay, so you have additional names in

25:19the audience who signed up to speak.

25:22Okay.

25:22Could you just give me those?

25:26Yeah, just give me those.

25:28Welcome, you have 3 minutes.

25:35>> His comments about the um

25:38uh upcoming meetings about

25:39Roxboro-Mangum. Um

25:41we've got some motion happening on on

25:42our major corridors and as the person

25:44who's reckless Roxboro, um I think it's

25:47really important that we keep these

25:47things moving forward, keep at top of

25:48mind. Uh remind you all that the Vision

25:51Zero Action Plan um passed unanimously

25:54uh will help us get to our Vision Zero

25:56goals. Uh those are uh if I remember

25:59right, it's a 50% reduction in 2035 and

26:01a 100% reduction

26:02uh in deaths and serious injuries in

26:042045.

26:06Dealing with these corridors is a major

26:07issue. Uh I'll be very excited if we if

26:09we can actually get Roxboro fixed,

26:10obviously, cuz I live right there. Uh

26:13but I also think we have to remember

26:13that we've got to we've got to fix all

26:15these other streets that we have that

26:16are on our um

26:18uh

26:19our high injury network, but also like

26:21we've seen issues on

26:23in places where it's not our high injury

26:24network and neighborhood streets where

26:26we've had tragedies, and so we have to

26:27keep that in mind. We really have to get

26:29this implemented broadly and equitably

26:31across the city.

26:33Um I I want to kvetch here just for a

26:34minute about what happened in the last

26:35meeting. Uh just to to remind folks,

26:37there was uh uh my my complaint about

26:40time again. Um I I cited a pretty

26:42specific um context here

26:44in our rules, I'll repeat that again,

26:46where numerous speakers appear as

26:48proponents or opponents, the presiding

26:50officer shall have the discretion,

26:51subject to appeal to the council, to

26:52shorten the time or fix and apportion

26:55the allotted time among the

26:57non-applicant speakers. And there was

26:58only one. There was it was just me. And

27:00uh my time was still shortened, and my

27:02reading of that uh I'm not numerous.

27:05Uh and so that's my kind of initial

27:07complaint. I I kind of did a follow-up

27:08email with the um

27:10city attorney's office and the the clerk

27:11just to make sure I understand it right.

27:13Like I'm not going to sit here and make

27:14too big of a deal about it, but um I'm I

27:16just want to make sure that, you know,

27:19I understand why this rule exists, um

27:21but the ways that we follow it and don't

27:22follow it uh seem to kind of benefit

27:25certain categories of people, certain

27:26groups.

27:28Uh certain times they can stack the deck

27:30and come in and go way over to the the

27:3315-minute period and talk about their

27:35views on a case, but then if it's not

27:38those organized groups that are kind of

27:40coordinating these efforts, um

27:42ordinary citizens like myself that

27:44aren't kind of operating with with other

27:46groups that aren't in coordination, um

27:48don't get our allotted time. And I I

27:50think that's giving us worse outcomes in

27:51these public hearings. And so I just I

27:53hope we'll consider how to do it. I I

27:55understand you're in a tough spot

27:56running these meetings, and you don't

27:57want them to go way over. You get a lot

27:59of heat about people going over time and

28:02trying to do whatever. So it's it's

28:03challenging, and you know, just

28:05respectfully ask that we kind of

28:06consider how that that works and and the

28:08outcomes that we're getting. Thank you.

28:11>> Thank you, Mr. Feuerstein. Again, you

28:12are correct on the procedures there, and

28:15uh you are a resident that's requesting

28:18fairness. And um again, the rules are at

28:22my prerogative. However,

28:24um you're right. So that's something

28:26I'll consider.

28:30All right. Next I have uh Leslie Saint

28:32Drai.

28:43>> Hello, council members. Uh

28:46I'm Leslie Saint Drai. I'm here with

28:48Community Land and Power and the Stop

28:50Data Centers in Durham Coalition for

28:52this first part of my statement. Um I'm

28:55here to urge all of you to deny city

28:59water connection extension agreements to

29:02new county data centers coming in

29:04including the new one project Lloyd. It

29:07was actually filed August 21st, 3 days

29:12before the county moratorium and it was

29:15not uh discussed as it was asked by

29:18planning if there was anything in the

29:19pipeline. They said no.

29:22Um so there's lots of questions on how

29:24that came to be. I want to reiterate

29:27that not one resident in every

29:30in any city or county council meeting

29:33thus far on data centers has publicly

29:36supported data centers or the loophole

29:38allowing hyperscale data centers in the

29:40county. Only two people have spoken in

29:43favor. It is Scott Levitan who was the

29:45president of RTP Foundation and Ramsey

29:47Ritchie for the Chamber of Commerce,

29:50both corporate lobbyists. So I urge you

29:53to be making policy

29:55uh for the people of Durham, not for

29:58people coming here to just extract and

30:00profit off of of all of us. So again,

30:03please deny the water extension

30:06agreement uh to project Lloyd and any

30:09other data center. Y'all have taken a

30:11vow uh with your moratorium to protect

30:14residents and we expect you to do so by

30:16denying water to a hyperscale data

30:18center coming in. Again, lots of

30:20questions on that that we still need

30:22answered. Um we have as a coalition um

30:26we urge you to uh basically effectively

30:29ban all data centers like Murphy, NC,

30:33and Clay County have done. Uh it is

30:35legal to prohibit almost all

30:39You can't completely prohibit a use, but

30:40you can make a threshold so low that it

30:43effectively does. They have a 1 to 2 MW

30:46threshold. Uh Clay County allows

30:48governmental data centers. Um we can and

30:51we demand a special use process for

30:53anything that's allowed under the

30:55threshold. The community deserves to

30:57know, uh deserves oversight, and um

31:01involvement in the process of making

31:03these regulations.

31:05Uh and so we know they're coming up

31:06soon. We're for a draft in December.

31:09We want to regulate the air, water,

31:11water discharge, soil, decommissioning,

31:14e-waste. Uh we want a regular audit of

31:17them so we can shut them down if they

31:19are violating regulations. Uh we'll be

31:22speaking more to this soon. I'm going to

31:24shift to a personal statement uh

31:28about protecting people's constitutional

31:30rights under the Fourth Amendment and

31:33asking you to stop the sweeps. Right now

31:35you're violating the Fourth Amendment.

31:37Everyone has the right to their

31:38constitutional rights. And so uh every

31:41day that goes by that you're sweeping

31:43and taking people's things, you're

31:44actually acting illegally.

31:47>> Thank you.

31:49Um next speaker, let's see.

31:56Madam Clerk, this is So that was

31:59all of the uh the other speakers were

32:01just for items, correct? Okay. Got it.

32:04Thank you.

32:06>> [clears throat and cough]

32:06>> At this time, I'll pass it over to Mr.

32:08Manager.

32:11Oh, you did. Okay.

32:12All right. So at this time, I'll read

32:14consent agenda.

32:16>> [clears throat]

32:24>> All right. Item number one,

32:26Durham City-County Environmental Affairs

32:28Board appointment.

32:29Number two,

32:37Yeah. Number two, uh fiscal year

32:382027-2028 budget development schedule.

32:41It's a presentation.

32:45Uh number three, service agreement with

32:47and system upgrade agreement with

32:48Motorola Solutions Incorporated.

32:51And number four, proposed lease at

32:53property at 1898 for the Office of

32:55Economic and Workforce Development. That

32:56item has been pulled.

32:59Number five, eminent domain action to

33:01obtain a sanitary sewer easement at 1622

33:03Crystal Creek Drive for the WS86

33:06project.

33:09And that item is pulled.

33:14Number six,

33:16US Department of Labor grant

33:18project ordinances, GPOs, for Workforce

33:22Innovation and Opportunity Act, WIOA,

33:24grants.

33:30That item is pulled.

33:32Number seven, first amendment to

33:34contract for Workforce Innovation and

33:36Opportunity Act, WIOA, adult and

33:38dislocated worker programs with Eckerd

33:40Youth Alternative Incorporated DBA

33:42Eckerd Connects.

33:48All right.

33:56Okay, so item number six is not pulled.

33:58Item number seven is.

33:59All right, item number eight, utility

34:01extension agreement with Durham County

34:03Land Trust Incorporated Trustees

34:05Incorporated to serve Alma Street

34:07Commons.

34:08Number nine, service contract award to

34:09Gregory Poole Equipment Company for

34:12routine generator maintenance and

34:13emergency repairs services,

34:16repair services for Department of Water

34:18Management plants and facilities.

34:21Presentation, Durham Housing Authority,

34:24DHA, state of DHA.

34:26Number 11, tree canopy assessment

34:28presentation.

34:30Looking forward to that.

34:32Number uh

34:39Okay.

34:40Number 12, consolidated item Sunrock

34:44Camden concrete manufacturing plant

34:45major special use permit and major site

34:48plan.

34:55Okay.

34:57All right.

34:58And that is the agenda.

35:01So I have

35:03items

35:06items 5 7

35:124 5 7

35:16All right. With the that's the center

35:17general with the item with the exception

35:19of items 4 5 and 7. The others are

35:20presentations.

35:28All right. Item number four.

35:31Proposed lease at Provident 89840 office

35:34of economic workforce development. This

35:36is pulled by online speaker Ms.

35:38Wagstaff.

35:39Ms. Wagstaff, can you hear me?

35:44>> I can.

35:44>> Welcome. You have 3 minutes.

35:46>> Um it's going to be quick. Um I have a

35:49concern about when departments decide to

35:52move from current locations and it's not

35:54just the work off workforce development.

35:56This has happened on multiple occasions

35:59where department decides that they want

36:01to be in a more plush area and it's

36:03costing the taxpayers and I looked at

36:05the amount of money that you're you're

36:07supposed to agree to or you're going to

36:09possibly sign off on to move this

36:12>> Recording in progress.

36:13>> to move the um

36:15office of workforce development into the

36:17Provident. I need to know what why does

36:20the workforce development office want to

36:23move from Golden Bell, which I don't see

36:26how much foot traffic comes through the

36:28office of workforce development. Do do

36:30they need bigger space? Do they need to

36:32accommodate more people? I

36:35There's a lot of questions about this

36:37and you're talking about almost a

36:38million dollars worth in a contract to

36:40move this office from its current

36:43location to a more plush location

36:45downtown. I think it's problematic. I

36:47think the city right now with the budget

36:50restraints that we continue to have I

36:53just think it's a bad move for to be

36:56talking about moving a department, a

36:58whole department that I don't really

37:00think gets a lot of foot traffic. So,

37:02that's my questions and I'd like to see

37:04some of them answered and I'll submit

37:06those later.

37:09>> Put it This one same.

37:11All right. Um Council member Burgess.

37:15>> Mr. Young, can you come?

37:19>> Uh good afternoon. Joshua Gunn, director

37:21of OEWD.

37:22>> Hey, good afternoon. I just have a

37:23couple quick questions for you in

37:24regards to the contract for this. Um but

37:26before I get started, how many staff

37:28members do you have in your office?

37:29>> We are 19 employees.

37:31>> And is everyone like is it a hybrid mix,

37:33work from home, or everyone's in office?

37:35>> We're primarily in the office. We do

37:36provide some accommodations and

37:38flexibility for work from home as

37:39needed.

37:40>> Okay. So, I'm looking at just some of

37:41the terms of the contract where it says

37:43you get 15 parking passes and then

37:45additional parking passes will be $100

37:47per space.

37:48So, then and then also that you have the

37:50meeting room equated at 25 hours. It

37:53would overall what I'm looking at is

37:54like the monthly fixed fee is the base

37:56pay, but then if you have to go you have

37:58like little add-ons that are ala carte.

38:00So, I want to know how can we get a

38:01better understanding of what the actual

38:03numerical value is for this contract

38:04since as it presently stands it does not

38:07fully accommodate your staff.

38:08>> Yeah, good question and thank you for

38:10that. It's in terms of parking. So, I

38:11have

38:13four grant-funded staff members that are

38:15included in the 19 that I just mentioned

38:18who primarily work outside of the

38:19office. The proud program operates out

38:22of Butner uh Federal Correctional

38:24Institute. Uh we also have uh two other

38:26staff who work in the NC Works Career

38:28Center. So, uh while they won't have uh

38:31dedicated full-time access to a uh

38:34parking space at PROWL and we believe

38:36that

38:36>> And that's just to

38:38pay his rent.

38:40>> We believe based on our uh our usage

38:42that uh at no point in the month or year

38:46or time period will we need more than

38:48those 15 spaces.

38:49>> Okay. And then looking ahead towards

38:51like departmental growth, do you see Do

38:52you have any projections for growth in

38:54your department in years coming to where

38:55you you would like um tremendously

38:56impact the structure or how this lease

38:58is designed?

38:59>> Yeah, that's a good question. So, as you

39:00know, we're going through our economic

39:02mobility plan uh sort of a sort of a

39:04departmental strategic planning process

39:06uh to assess uh the kind of future state

39:09and size of the department. Difficult

39:11for me to answer without completing that

39:12plan, uh but I don't anticipate within

39:15the scope of this lease us needing much

39:17more space. In fact, the thought process

39:20behind consolidating into a more

39:22flexible space uh gives us the potential

39:24to both grow and and maybe scale back if

39:26if that becomes a reality. Some of those

39:28grant-funded positions that I talked

39:30about, for instance, uh are at risk of

39:33that federal funding that we use for

39:34those is at risk of going away. Uh and

39:36so this gives us more flexibility rather

39:38than leasing a large space which we had

39:40at Golden Belt uh and saves us a

39:42significant amount of money in the lease

39:44compared to what we would have paid if

39:46we renewed at Golden Belt.

39:47>> Okay. And then my final question is like

39:48you have 20 per the contract you have 25

39:50hours um for the meeting room credits.

39:52How like how often do you guys Will that

39:54be sufficient to accommodate your staff

39:55or just how often do you use the meeting

39:57spaces?

39:58>> Yeah, so the other piece about uh the

39:59sort of flexible working environment

40:01that we like is there are multiple

40:02places in the building for us to

40:03convene. Most of our convenings are

40:05small. Hey, three or four of us need to

40:07get together to talk about a a

40:08particular thing. Uh those 25 hours

40:10gives us the ability to host um

40:12you know, businesses and outside

40:13partners in the space which we do at

40:15some regularity, um but I think 25 is

40:17more than sufficient for us.

40:18>> Okay. Thank you so much.

40:19>> Yeah.

40:22>> Yeah, thank you, Director Guyton. And as

40:23a follow-up, could you speak to the

40:26estimated difference in your

40:29annual costs for this space versus the

40:31current space?

40:32>> Yeah, so um

40:34we

40:35So, the total I think the total lease

40:36that's in front of you is somewhere

40:37around $700,000 for 5 years. Our current

40:40lease rate at Golden Belt is closer to

40:42$900,000 for 5 years. So, we're saving

40:44$200,000 against the current lease rate,

40:47but the proposed renewal, which our real

40:48estate team might be able to give you a

40:49little bit more specifics on,

40:51was far exceeded our current lease lease

40:54rate. So,

40:55our landlords were projecting an

40:57increased rental rate, as well as in the

41:00event that we needed to go

41:00month-to-month, an additional charge for

41:03that. So, this is a significant savings

41:05for the city.

41:09>> Thanks for being here, Director Guyton.

41:11How long has DWD been in in its current

41:14location?

41:15>> Oh, I don't know.

41:18Probably a long time.

41:19>> Okay. Okay.

41:20>> Yeah, and I I I

41:20>> I would imagine cuz I I don't go back

41:23that far,

41:24that part of the motivation was

41:27to be a part of the revitalization of

41:29Golden Belt. It's my guess. Is that

41:32>> I Yeah, I can't speak for what was here,

41:33so I don't

41:33>> Um so, I'm just curious, the motivation

41:36for moving,

41:38we looked at the cost that's in the

41:39memo. So, it looks like some cost

41:40savings versus staying in the same

41:42place. It sounds like there's some

41:44flexibility moving forward as well. Are

41:46there I'm just curious, are there any

41:47other kind of motivations that you all

41:49are considering?

41:50>> Yeah, the in addition to cost savings,

41:52which I know that the the city's budget

41:53has been a driver of all departments

41:55thinking about ways that we can

41:57contribute to to savings. That was a big

41:58factor, but also the way we do business

42:01requires us to be more connected to the

42:03ecosystem of entrepreneurs, small

42:05businesses, and a lot of the activity

42:08that happens in Durham in that space

42:09happens in the center of the city. In a

42:12space like Provident, it gives us the

42:13ability to be closer to the people that

42:14we serve, which in our case is

42:16businesses, entrepreneurs, and small

42:18businesses. Also gets us closer to

42:19partners who are doing similar work.

42:22For instance, Duke's economic

42:24development office is in that building,

42:25not in Provident, but in the building.

42:27Other entrepreneurial serving

42:29organizations operate out of that space

42:31as well. So, it gives us the ability to

42:32be more entrenched in the ecosystem.

42:35As great as Golden Belt has been, it's a

42:37nice large space with some some great

42:38beautiful windows and uh you know, it

42:41really has they've really been great

42:42partners for us. It's somewhat on an

42:44island and we don't find as much you

42:46know, traffic coming to our department

42:48and we we see ourselves as being you

42:50know, pivotal in the economic

42:51development of Durham and we need to be

42:52visible and engaged in that ecosystem.

42:54So, being closer to that

42:56that heartbeat gives us the ability to

42:58do that.

42:58>> Do we still have staff in in Golden

43:00Belt?

43:01Cuz I know NIS was there.

43:03>> We have community partnerships and

43:04engagement and our audit services

43:06division are both in Golden Belt.

43:08I believe that's everybody, right?

43:09>> That's that's everybody that's that's

43:10left there. Okay. Um do you see any

43:13plusses or or minuses? So, you're

43:14talking about proximity, which I think

43:15is really important to some of these

43:17private sector partners which you you

43:19all are engaging with a lot.

43:21Um

43:23any plusses or minuses? You're kind of

43:24moving to the other side of downtown

43:26from here where we have the planning

43:29department, where we have housing and

43:31neighborhood services upstairs.

43:34So, we're lacking that proximity. Do you

43:37see any plusses or minuses to

43:39one

43:41paying rent to a private landlord versus

43:43being in a public building um

43:46and two, that distance that maybe we

43:48have from some of our critical partners

43:50like like the plan internal partners

43:53like the planning department and

43:55neighborhood.

43:55>> Yeah, as a part of Thank you for that

43:56question. As part of this process, we

43:58the city engaged a design consultant to

44:01to review whether or not moving our

44:03department to City Hall was an option.

44:05There were multiple other departments

44:06that I think were involved in that

44:07study. Don't know the outcomes of who's

44:08moving and who's not. Um, but from a

44:10business case standpoint, it just didn't

44:12make sense based on who we serve uh, and

44:14wanting to to your point be in proximity

44:16to

44:17uh, the businesses and not be viewed as

44:19sort of an institutional wall. Uh, which

44:21city hall doesn't necessarily always

44:23create the best opportunity for

44:24businesses to walk through and come and

44:26engage with us and feel comfortable in

44:27talking about economic development with

44:29us. Um, so that proximity was critical.

44:31As it relates to partners like planning,

44:32zoning, transportation, and all the

44:34folks that we work with Uh, we work

44:35together every single day already. Uh,

44:37much of that work happens on teams. Uh,

44:39and we continue to have that that

44:41ability and I don't mind walking uh, 10

44:43minutes down the hill to come here

44:44either.

44:45>> Okay. Thank you.

44:48Thanks Mr. Mayor. Actually, Director

44:49Guy, I think you answered my questions.

44:50I think it's a great move. I think I you

44:52know, I think your point about being

44:54part of the ecosystem is really

44:56important. You are a key player in

44:58economic development in the city and our

45:00in our goals of shared economic

45:02prosperity and social mobility. I think

45:03connecting to that ecosystem makes a lot

45:05of sense. As I understand Golden Bell is

45:07also a private that you we're paying

45:08rent to a private entity, right? So it's

45:10not like we're going from from from

45:11public to private. So I think it's a

45:13great move. I appreciate the work you're

45:14doing and I yeah, I think this is going

45:15to work out well. And I think you're

45:16probably closer to the city hall now.

45:17You'd be closer to city hall than you

45:19are now, right?

45:19>> Wouldn't have to get in the car.

45:20>> Yep. Thank you.

45:23Anyone else?

45:25All right. Uh, yeah, I think it's a

45:26great move. Uh, I think you know, um,

45:29it's the economic workforce development

45:30and you're moving into the building

45:32where much of the economic development

45:33in the city's legacy and history was

45:35birthed.

45:36So, um, makes sense. We're saving money.

45:38We're amongst the ecosystem and I do

45:41like the idea that we are

45:44we're playing ball in the private

45:45sector, you know, helping to power the

45:47local economy. Um,

45:49that's a language that we don't talk

45:51enough about

45:53uh, on this council and I hope that we

45:54get there.

45:56Um,

45:57so, yeah, I look forward to working with

45:58you guys more.

45:59And um,

46:01I I I'm glad you're not on an Allen

46:03anymore. I

46:04Like I said, a couple of years ago I

46:05tried to get in the building and it took

46:06me 30 minutes to find it and get inside.

46:08So,

46:09um, yeah, you'll be amongst an ecosystem

46:11where it works. So, looking forward to

46:13it.

46:13>> Thank you.

46:14>> Thank you.

46:19All right, um,

46:22gosh, item number five is next. That was

46:25pulled by

46:32Yeah.

46:34All right.

46:35It's an person. Autumn Ranch, Autumn

46:38Ridge?

46:40Be here?

46:41Yeah, please come up.

46:43You have 3 minutes.

46:48Item number five, right?

47:02Question.

47:03>> Yes.

47:03>> If your name Autumn Ridge?

47:05>> No, we're not. We're the We're the board

47:06of the Home Owners Association.

47:07>> Okay, so I'll need your name for the

47:09clerk for public record.

47:10>> Okay.

47:11>> I thought I thought it was an

47:12interesting name.

47:14>> I was like,

47:16>> um,

47:20yeah.

47:37Are all of you all speaking?

47:40>> Uh, it sounds like I was nominated to

47:41speak.

47:42>> Okay, sounds like an HOA.

47:44>> Yeah.

47:45>> All right.

47:47Um, would you state your name for the

47:49record and you have 3 minutes.

47:50>> Uh, good afternoon. My name is Leo Cruz.

47:52I reside at

47:52>> is Leo, too, huh?

47:54>> Yeah.

47:54>> Okay.

47:55>> Um, I reside at 1624 Crystal Creek Drive

47:58in Durham and I'm a resident of Autumn

48:00Ridge. I heard earlier that number five

48:03was pulled. So before I start speaking,

48:05I was just wondering if

48:06there's any more information on that.

48:08>> It was pulled by you or Autumn Ridge.

48:10>> Cool.

48:11>> Oh, pulled it. Okay.

48:12>> Okay.

48:12>> Yeah, so basically when you guys signed

48:14up

48:14and you said you want to speak on this

48:16item

48:17on this populated sheet of names or

48:19individuals, it it lets me know what

48:21items I need to take off of the consent

48:23agenda. Okay. to address. So you all are

48:26the only ones that are addressing this

48:27today.

48:28>> So I'm here to express my opposition and

48:30concerns regarding the proposed sanitary

48:32sewer easement acquisition. I understand

48:34and support the goal of providing

48:36reliable sewer service to residents of

48:38Grand Oaks. However, I respectfully ask

48:40the council to carefully consider

48:42whether taking private property through

48:44eminent domain is truly necessary when

48:46other routing alternatives exist. Our

48:49board has not received any engineering

48:51studies or alternative route analysis

48:53showing that the proposed approaches the

48:55best option for all affected parties. No

48:57such documentation has been posted to

48:59this working session either.

49:01So some of the questions that we would

49:03like to ask of the city are what are the

49:07alternative routes that were

49:09researched and how many of those routes

49:11were considered and technically

49:13feasible?

49:15The original petition for this project,

49:17as I understand it, was started sometime

49:19around 2007.

49:21So we're trying to understand what the

49:22urgency for this is now.

49:24The official project sounds like it

49:26began around 2018. And I understand that

49:29each Grand Oaks resident shares some

49:31responsibility somewhere in the tens of

49:33thousands of dollars to connect to the

49:35easement should it be approved and

49:37constructed. I would expect that from

49:392018 the funds required has increased.

49:43So are the Grand Oaks residents aware of

49:45the additional funding to connect to the

49:46sewer?

49:48And also recent reports of sewerage

49:50problems in East Durham raise concerns

49:52about the city's sewer capacity. Has an

49:54independent evaluation confirmed that

49:56the existing system running through

49:58Autumn Ridge, already servicing 138

50:01homes, can accommodate this project?

50:04And

50:06uh the project description um is as

50:08follows. Uh WS86-2018

50:12water and sewer extension construction

50:14project phase one will extend public

50:15sanitary sewer service to properties on

50:17Red Coach Road and Grand Oaks Road. On

50:20the Durham topology map, it appears that

50:21some homes on Red Coach are at a lower

50:24elevation from the proposed route

50:25through Autumn Ridge. If this is so,

50:28what is the plan for these homes?

50:30As it would require a lift station to

50:31accommodate.

50:33Do you have any uh

50:34>> Thank you. Uh if you will submit your

50:37questions and we'll we'll try and get

50:39those answered.

50:40>> Sure. Thanks. Thank

50:41>> Thank you.

50:42>> And um Mary Peacock, also on the Autumn

50:44Ridge board. One of the other concerns

50:46is that the

50:48um area has two um options. One is to

50:51run the sewer line over to Guess Road.

50:54The other being is to run the sewer line

50:56onto Bivins. And we're just wondering

50:59why the

51:00um city would want to run the sewer

51:02through our community when two other

51:04options that would not interrupt our

51:06community are available.

51:11>> Thank you.

51:13Just please uh submit those. You can

51:15send it to the office of the mayor and

51:17we'll get it over to the city manager's

51:19office and get it taken [clears throat]

51:20care of.

51:22Council member Cook, uh would you like

51:23to? Okay.

51:25Council member Cook, do you mind if I

51:26let staff respond?

51:27>> I mean, I was just going to repeat the

51:29question, so I'd love for staff to

51:30respond. And gentlemen, there there's

51:32someone that's going to respond to you.

51:34>> Gentlemen,

51:35so we're going to get your gentlemen,

51:36Autumn Ridge

51:37>> hang out for a second. Someone's going

51:38to

51:38>> Gentlemen, we're going to get it

51:39answered right now.

51:42Welcome.

51:43>> Good afternoon. My name is Clint

51:44Blackburn with Environmental and Street

51:45Services.

51:47Um so we've been trying to communicate

51:49with this neighborhood for 4 to 5 years.

51:52They've completely cut off

51:54communications with us.

51:55Um so a lot of this has been provided to

51:59them and um

52:01so we're

52:03uh

52:04so the um

52:05alternate route is actually within the

52:07community itself.

52:09Um we chose not to proceed with those

52:12routes because it would actually

52:14increase environmental impact upon a

52:17blue blue line stream behind properties.

52:20Um the uh the route we chose

52:24accommodates the the houses that are

52:26downhill from the line. So it's

52:30it it's the best option. There really is

52:32no other option because of the the way

52:35the the gravity flows in that area.

52:38Without

52:39extensive

52:41cost.

52:48>> I am curious when you've done those

52:50studies, um

52:52do we do studies on sort of like

52:54feasibility and and best options and

52:56then um

52:58is there a reason that we don't get

52:59those or at least like a reference to

53:01those in other places?

53:02>> was I mean the feasibility is running

53:05the the calculations of um

53:08like when we when we draw the sewer line

53:10out, um that was a feasibility. So I

53:12mean I could show you the alternate

53:14plans, but they you know, it's it's

53:17they're not flushed out to the point of

53:20uh like final design. They're you know,

53:22as soon as we ran the numbers and we

53:24realized that the the flow was

53:27counterintuitive, we

53:29scrapped that route and and kept working

53:32until we had the route that the the

53:34gravity was able to flow all the way

53:37properly and that's the route that was

53:38chosen.

53:39>> Okay, if makes sense to me and I I guess

53:41this this might be a city attorney

53:42question, but I am curious about since

53:44eminent domain is such a serious um

53:46piece of this, if there are requirements

53:49and what those look like before um

53:52an alternate or before a route is chosen

53:55and whether or not there is a required

53:56to like do a study on alternate routes.

53:59Putting you on the spot, I know. Sorry.

54:00>> Yeah. Council member, since I know so

54:02little about the engineering piece of

54:03this, um I have Beth Hylen here who does

54:06work on these issues, so I'm going to

54:07invite her up to the podium.

54:14>> Good afternoon, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem,

54:16and Council. Um Beth Hylen, senior

54:18assistant city attorney.

54:20Um when it comes to eminent domain,

54:22there really aren't a whole lot of

54:24requirements as far as what route do we

54:27have to take, um

54:28you know, do we have to redesign, do we

54:30have to do an extensive study.

54:32Um the eminent domain statute is

54:34actually a pretty

54:36uh short on communication requirements

54:38and and feasibility studies doesn't

54:41really address those kinds of things.

54:42So, uh when it comes to eminent domain,

54:45you know, we generally work with the

54:46client department and, you know, their

54:49recommendation is their recommendation

54:51and we proceed accordingly with the

54:52legal side of it.

54:58>> If I may, Mayor, that that

55:02uh across the board on on city projects,

55:04I think it is it is a

55:07uh prominent presumption before a

55:09project begins that we want to minimize

55:11the impact on any private property and

55:13that we whenever there are viable design

55:16alternatives that lessen impacts to

55:18private property, uh obviously there's a

55:20cost-benefit analysis to the taxpayer,

55:22but for the most part, if there if there

55:25are ever any viable options that avoid

55:27uh

55:29voluntary and certainly involuntary uh

55:32acquisition of property, uh that it that

55:34is always a primary driver of any

55:35project. Um happy with any project for

55:39Council to ask, you know, kind of what

55:40level of analysis I think Mr.

55:42Blackburn's description on this one is

55:44fairly straightforward, but but we you

55:46know, I I'm comfortable giving Council

55:48assurance that that we always presume

55:51acquisition of property and in

55:52particular

55:54you know, the use of eminent domain as a

55:56very last option and and only when our

55:59design alternatives are extremely

56:00limited.

56:05>> Yeah, go ahead.

56:07>> I know if Ms. Basil had something to

56:09>> Okay.

56:12>> All right. Thank you all so much. Thank

56:14you.

56:18All right. Next item is

56:21number seven.

56:23Is that you Council member Kulback?

56:32>> All right.

56:33Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

56:35Director Gunn.

56:39>> Greetings once again.

56:41>> Hello. Yes, thank you. I just wanted to

56:42ask about how we measure success

56:47in a contract like this.

56:51You know, what we've seen in the past,

56:52what we'll be looking for going forward.

56:54>> Yeah, so

56:55success metrics are a part of kind of a

56:58multi-faceted process that involves the

57:00Department of Labor and then the State

57:02Department of Commerce.

57:04The federal funds flow through the

57:05state. The state then gives local area

57:07boards like the Durham Workforce

57:08Development Board

57:10funding for the WIOA program that this

57:12contract in this case is for adult

57:14dislocated workers.

57:16Um

57:17I will say that the bar is pretty low

57:21in terms of what the state considers

57:23performance.

57:24And it's typically what I would describe

57:26as output measures, things like how many

57:27people did you serve? There is an income

57:30threshold there that that I've been

57:32vocal to say I think it's pretty low as

57:33well.

57:34But there those metrics are put into the

57:37overall workforce development boards

57:38performance

57:40evaluation for a given year and our

57:42contracts are written to speak to that.

57:45They

57:46there is a monitoring process that the

57:48state does to determine whether or not a

57:50contractor

57:51reached those goals those benchmarks

57:53around individuals served and the income

57:55level attained.

57:57They are limited in terms of what I

57:59would like to see which are things like

58:00how many jobs they you know how many

58:02folks became employed as a result of our

58:04services economic mobility metrics for

58:06instance you were making this amount

58:07when you walked into the career center

58:08now you're making this amount. We are in

58:10the process as a part of our strategic

58:12plan economic mobility plan

58:15adding additional metrics and you know

58:17I'm learning some of the limitations

58:18that the state and federal government

58:21have in terms of how how flexible and

58:24outcome driven we can be.

58:26But at present it's mostly output data

58:28and so the contracts are written to

58:29reflect that. This particular contractor

58:32did not reach each of the performance

58:34metrics in the previous performance year

58:36and when that happens there is a

58:38corrective action plan that the state

58:40gives us the state monitors us and says

58:42you didn't hit A B C and D or you're

58:44close but didn't quite get there. So

58:45here are some things that we need to to

58:47put in place for you to do that. And so

58:49we got a corrective action plan for this

58:50particular contractor.

58:52As it relates to this

58:54contract that's before the council today

58:56we did the state mandated RFP process

58:59and this contractor responded along with

59:01another. The Durham Workforce

59:02Development Board then scored both

59:04applications and ultimately recommended

59:06Ecker for this contract.

59:09>> All right. Thank you and I'm

59:10appreciative of the work at the local

59:11level to identify and and stipulate some

59:14of those additional metrics of success

59:16that are you know more outcome versus

59:19output and so I'm glad to know that'll

59:21be part of the plan that you're

59:22developing too. So thank you.

59:23>> Yeah. Thank you.

59:25Just may if could in Um, Council member

59:28your questions are absolutely on on

59:29point and um, as you may know I've been

59:31asking for the last couple years for the

59:33same questions about these contracts.

59:34What kind of metrics are do we really

59:36asking for? I had a conversation with

59:37Dr. Director offline about that.

59:39Under his leadership the workforce board

59:41is very well aware of the need for much

59:43more clear

59:45and direct and sort of yeah, outcomes

59:47focused measures to be able to measure

59:49what we're doing in terms of our

59:50workforce work. So, under Director

59:52leadership and again the workforce board

59:53we're working on that. I think again

59:55using the under the constraints of the

59:56federal system we're trying to move this

59:59towards a system where we can much more

1:00:01effectively leverage those federal

1:00:02dollars to really create the kind of

1:00:04workforce impacts we want. So,

1:00:05absolutely it's a work in progress. I

1:00:06appreciate your leadership but it's it's

1:00:08a great question.

1:00:09>> Yeah, we we are working hard. I was at

1:00:10the NC Works Partnership Conference last

1:00:12week asking these very questions to

1:00:13state leadership. How do we, you know,

1:00:15this isn't enough. We got to do more.

1:00:17How do What are the mechanisms that I

1:00:18have as director, as a fiscal agent,

1:00:20what can the board do to get us to more

1:00:22outcome driven metrics? And so,

1:00:25uh, we have a new board chair that we're

1:00:26aggressively putting together plans to

1:00:28address these issues.

1:00:31>> Appreciate those questions, colleagues.

1:00:34Um,

1:00:36had the same ones last year, so.

1:00:39Um, thank you. All right, that's item

1:00:41number seven.

1:00:46Item number 10. Okay, this now we are at

1:00:48our presentations.

1:00:51Yeah.

1:00:53Yeah, let Yeah, let So, I'm actually

1:00:56going to call on the Durham Housing

1:00:58Authority first.

1:01:00Uh, you guys have lots of people in the

1:01:01room.

1:01:03So, uh, I'll I'll invite Deputy City

1:01:06Manager Bertha

1:01:08Winbush.

1:01:09>> Good afternoon, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem and

1:01:11members of City Council. Bertha Winbush,

1:01:13Deputy City Manager.

1:01:15I am representing this item today.

1:01:17However, I want you to know that we have

1:01:18strong partnerships with DHA across the

1:01:21organization.

1:01:22There is a regular cadence of meetings

1:01:24with DHA staff and the city of Durham

1:01:26staff

1:01:27including meetings between the interim

1:01:29CEO and our city manager.

1:01:32The also the director of housing

1:01:34neighborhood services and the interim

1:01:35CEO or DHA CFO and the city CFO to

1:01:39discuss their monthly financial reports.

1:01:42As you recall one of our agreements was

1:01:44that we receive those monthly financial

1:01:45reports from DHA and they have had a

1:01:47regular cadence of getting those to us.

1:01:50We also have introduced meetings between

1:01:52community partnerships and engagement

1:01:54department as demonstrated by their

1:01:55financial support

1:01:57the properties doing national night out

1:02:00and we're very appreciative of that

1:02:01partnership. So I say all that to say we

1:02:04are constantly communicating and getting

1:02:06updates from DHA.

1:02:08In June Ashanti Brown interim CEO of

1:02:10Durham Housing Authority invited us to a

1:02:13presentation on the state of DHA.

1:02:15Representative from the city manager's

1:02:17office, the city attorney's office,

1:02:18finance, housing neighborhood services

1:02:21and ESS attendant that meeting. The

1:02:24presentation was informative and we felt

1:02:26it would be valuable to bring this

1:02:28forward to city council as well as the

1:02:29public.

1:02:31We had planned updates to city council

1:02:33on several topics so we decided to

1:02:34incorporate all of those topics into

1:02:36today's presentation.

1:02:38Of course if you don't see something in

1:02:39the presentation that you would like to

1:02:41discuss or ask questions DHA is here

1:02:44with their staff.

1:02:45We also wanted to make sure that we hit

1:02:47on those major topics that you all had

1:02:50indicated you wanted to discuss the loan

1:02:52as well as some of the other projects we

1:02:54funded like the bond projects.

1:02:57We wanted to make sure that DHA had an

1:02:59opportunity to come before you directly

1:03:01and answer those questions and also we

1:03:03wanted to make sure that this was a

1:03:05meeting that would be well attended by

1:03:07our public as well as their support. And

1:03:09so now I'm going to turn it over to

1:03:11Ashanti Brown who's going to present her

1:03:14presentation as well as introduce you to

1:03:16her staff.

1:03:17>> Thank you.

1:03:20>> Thank you so much, Deputy City Manager

1:03:22Lyn Bush.

1:03:23Good afternoon, Mayor Pro Tem. Um you're

1:03:26here in the room, and I will greet Mayor

1:03:28um Williams when he gets back. Um as

1:03:31well as our members of council.

1:03:34Hello, City Manager Ferguson and Durham

1:03:37city staff.

1:03:39I am here to present on behalf of the

1:03:41Durham Housing Authority as the interim

1:03:42Chief Executive Officer, who I have with

1:03:44me today. First, I will introduce my

1:03:46board chair, Ms. Mamie Webb-Bledsoe. She

1:03:49is the chair of our Board of

1:03:50Commissioners. I also have a quite a few

1:03:53members of our leadership team with me

1:03:55today. If you can just raise your hands

1:03:57so that everyone knows that you're here.

1:03:59And also some of our um partners that we

1:04:02work with very closely from our

1:04:03development side. I also have our

1:04:05General Counsel, Mr. um Eric Pristell.

1:04:09And our former CEO, Mr.

1:04:13Anthony Snell is also here representing

1:04:15as a advisor to our board.

1:04:18And so with that, I will jump in and

1:04:21thank you for allowing me to trick you

1:04:23into what you thought was a 20-minute

1:04:25presentation.

1:04:29So we're going to talk about some tough

1:04:30things this afternoon, specifically

1:04:32related to the Durham Housing Authority,

1:04:33and we're also going to talk about some

1:04:35wins.

1:04:37I want to make uh make it clear that at

1:04:39no point in this presentation am I

1:04:41implying that we are a perfect agency

1:04:44and that we are that we have it all

1:04:45figured out. What I want to make sure is

1:04:47clear to everyone today is that we are

1:04:49an agency that has a lot of work to do,

1:04:51and we have done a lot of work, and

1:04:53there is progress that has been made.

1:04:56And so with that, I'm going to learn how

1:04:58to use this clicker really quick.

1:05:04And jump right in.

1:05:09And so I do have a bit of a background

1:05:10that I'll provide on the Durham Housing

1:05:12Authority or housing authorities in

1:05:13general. We're going to talk about the

1:05:15bond update for the Forever Home Durham

1:05:17bond, and we're also going to go into

1:05:19what we've been doing around our public

1:05:20housing performance improvements. We'll

1:05:22touch on our Housing Choice Voucher

1:05:23program, and I'll wrap up and see if

1:05:26there are questions and additional

1:05:27discussion items that I can answer after

1:05:29that.

1:05:41Okay, I think I got it now.

1:05:43It's user error. So,

1:05:45>> [laughter]

1:05:45>> in terms of background, the Durham

1:05:47Housing Authority is federally funded.

1:05:49Um we're a federally funded housing

1:05:51authority. We're funded by the United

1:05:52States Department of Housing and Urban

1:05:54Development, and we're governed by a

1:05:56board that's appointed by the mayor and

1:05:58city council.

1:06:01With that, um and I'll I'll leave a lot

1:06:04of information in here as informational

1:06:06items.

1:06:10I see there's a bit of a delay. Okay, I

1:06:12got it though. Thank you.

1:06:14I'll leave some information in here for

1:06:16informational items in terms of history

1:06:18of housing authorities and how all of

1:06:19those things work, um but I'll touch on

1:06:21some highlights as I go along.

1:06:23So, housing authority um residents, they

1:06:25typically do not pay more than 30% of

1:06:27their income for housing. Um everybody

1:06:30um is assessed their income is assessed,

1:06:32and we determine at that time what we

1:06:33can count as income and make a a

1:06:35determination of their portion.

1:06:37The way that we are funded as housing

1:06:39authorities, we get two annual

1:06:41appropriations from Congress. And so,

1:06:44Congress does that by way of what's

1:06:45called operating funds and capital

1:06:47funds. And so, we'll talk a little bit

1:06:49about how that looks on the next slide,

1:06:51but I just want to stop right here and

1:06:53preface that with operating funds, that

1:06:55covers our regular operating costs for

1:06:57the property day-to-day.

1:06:59Capital funds are specifically to cover

1:07:01capital projects, like we're replacing

1:07:04the roof for the entire community and

1:07:05things of that nature.

1:07:08The operating fund formula is calculated

1:07:10by HUD property by property. It's based

1:07:13on the number of occupied units, and it

1:07:15also considers that you're going to

1:07:17collect a certain amount of rent. And so

1:07:19typically based on HUD's ratings, they

1:07:21expect that you're going to collect at

1:07:22least 98% of your rent in order to

1:07:26offset what they're going to subsidize

1:07:27you with operating funds.

1:07:32And so I've provided a chart here or

1:07:34it's a slide here with a few charts to

1:07:36show you just a little bit about each of

1:07:38the different funds that we work with

1:07:40with our public housing program as well

1:07:42as our housing choice voucher program.

1:07:45So on the left-hand side, you'll see two

1:07:47um charts on top of one another. One is

1:07:49for public housing. You'll see I went

1:07:51back over the last um a little bit over

1:07:53a decade

1:07:54um

1:07:55or just about a decade and we're looking

1:07:57at the public housing operating fund,

1:08:00how it's been appropriated by Congress

1:08:02over since 2008. And as you can see,

1:08:05there um has been a little bit of

1:08:07fluctuation here and there. There's

1:08:09there's a slight increase um in around

1:08:122024.

1:08:14But that was really

1:08:17not the whole story. And so I'll tell

1:08:19you about that in a few moments, but

1:08:20that's how the operating fund has

1:08:21worked. And I'm really looking at

1:08:23national funding across the entire

1:08:25country. So this is how Congress um

1:08:28makes that appropriation is for all

1:08:30housing authorities across the United

1:08:31States.

1:08:32>> And Ms. Brown, those those are real

1:08:33dollars. This is not adjusted for

1:08:34inflation, right? That's actual.

1:08:36>> Those are actual dollars, not adjusted

1:08:38for inflation. And thank you for that

1:08:39question because that's actually where I

1:08:41was going next. Thank you, sir. So the

1:08:44next piece here with the capital fund is

1:08:45a very similar story. So where where

1:08:48we're not going is back to the '90s

1:08:51where housing authorities were funded at

1:08:53an extremely higher level than where

1:08:54they were funded now. But what you can

1:08:56see is that we're starting in 2008, and

1:08:58you see where funding for capital funds

1:09:00drops off.

1:09:03And then it slightly increases

1:09:06in 2017 and that was because of who we

1:09:08had in Congress. If you all recall back

1:09:10then, we had a Congress that was

1:09:11supportive of a affordable housing and

1:09:13they saw fit to make sure that that

1:09:14housing funding was there.

1:09:16The story that I'm telling here

1:09:18is that the funding is not necessarily

1:09:20completely reliable because if you look

1:09:22at 2026,

1:09:24you'll see that big drop right at the

1:09:26end.

1:09:27And so,

1:09:29we're talking about the funding levels,

1:09:31but what I don't show you here is what

1:09:33the actual numbers look like. And so, to

1:09:35that point that Councilman Rest raised,

1:09:39when we're talking about what our costs

1:09:41look like or what's adjusted for

1:09:43inflation, these numbers are not

1:09:44adjusted for inflation.

1:09:46So, if you see

1:09:48on the public housing operating fund

1:09:50table,

1:09:51you see that there was a level of

1:09:53funding in 2014, that little dot there.

1:09:57And it climbed a little bit and then we

1:09:58get to 2019 where it hits a peak.

1:10:04When you go back and you see that there

1:10:06was a drop, we don't get back to the

1:10:07level of funding that we were looking

1:10:09for until maybe the next year later.

1:10:12What happens with that operating fund

1:10:13calculation is that when you get funded,

1:10:16HUD has to receive that funding and make

1:10:18a decision about how they're going to

1:10:19allocate it across housing authorities

1:10:21across the country.

1:10:22When they do that, it's not adjusted for

1:10:25inflation. And so, if we're talking

1:10:27about what happened in 2019

1:10:29and then we go forward all the way to

1:10:31today,

1:10:33what has happened is that our operating

1:10:35costs have increased by 37%.

1:10:39And I'm just going to I'm actually

1:10:40basing that off of a number

1:10:42that we've been hearing about often in

1:10:44our industry, but I was in a conference

1:10:47today, the the North Carolina Affordable

1:10:49Housing Conference. There was a

1:10:50representative from Harvard's Joint

1:10:52Center of Housing Studies who talked

1:10:54about operating costs for multi-family

1:10:56housing. What he expressed is that based

1:10:59on the data from their studies, we're

1:11:01talking about an increase in operating

1:11:02costs of 37% since before COVID-19.

1:11:06And he expressed in that same sentence

1:11:09that affordable housing costs are likely

1:11:11higher.

1:11:13We do not see an adjustment for

1:11:14inflation. It's the same number that it

1:11:17has been and actually where we're at now

1:11:19is that we're at a funding level back

1:11:21where we were around 2019.

1:11:25And that is before Congress does the

1:11:28after Congress does the appropriation

1:11:30and before HUD actually distributes that

1:11:31money to the housing authority.

1:11:33If you go to capital funds, you see a

1:11:35similar story.

1:11:36Where we're talking about the same

1:11:38thing. We're talking about capital

1:11:39projects with the rate of 37%

1:11:42inflation or 37% increase in operating

1:11:45costs, but you don't really see it in

1:11:46the numbers. And so what we're not

1:11:47talking about here is the percentage of

1:11:49the need.

1:11:51So if I say that that operating fund was

1:11:5480% of what the housing or I'm sorry,

1:11:5750% of what housing authorities needed.

1:12:00And then I back out 37% increases in

1:12:03operating cost.

1:12:04We're talking about a significantly less

1:12:08percentage of what the need was.

1:12:11And then if I do the same thing for the

1:12:12capital fund.

1:12:1464% of what the need was based on what

1:12:17was requested and this data is based on

1:12:18data from the Council of Large Public

1:12:20Housing Authorities.

1:12:22If I back out 37%

1:12:25increase in cost.

1:12:27We're significantly significantly under

1:12:29the need.

1:12:31Now when I go over to the Housing Choice

1:12:33Vouchers side of this slide, you'll see

1:12:35that Housing Choice Voucher funding has

1:12:37typically been trending upward.

1:12:40So that first chart is talking is

1:12:41speaking to the fact that that's

1:12:43landlord payments.

1:12:45The money that's made available for

1:12:46housing assistance payments for housing

1:12:48authorities across the country.

1:12:50And right below it, you see a similar

1:12:52story for the Housing Choice Voucher

1:12:53Administrative Fund.

1:12:55And that's the fund that you have to

1:12:57operate the program. And you see that

1:12:59there have been increases over time.

1:13:02Based on this information, one could

1:13:04take away that it seems that it's a more

1:13:06favorable program to Congress.

1:13:08And this is the beginning of the story

1:13:10that we're telling.

1:13:11Public housing is not necessarily in

1:13:14favor of Congress. And that is why

1:13:17housing authorities have to consider

1:13:20have to

1:13:21consider the sustainability of their

1:13:23programs. And you cannot sustain public

1:13:25housing where your funding is not

1:13:27reliable. When it's 50% of what you

1:13:30actually need and not adjusted for

1:13:32inflation,

1:13:33you cannot operate a system like that.

1:13:37And on top of this, we're not talking

1:13:38about you underfunded for 1 year.

1:13:41We're talking about underfunding for the

1:13:43tune of 30 years.

1:13:45And so, yes, it is a failed system.

1:13:49There is no way you can sustain housing

1:13:51with funding at those levels with the

1:13:54backlog that it creates.

1:13:58And so, because of that, housing

1:14:00authorities have to look at moving out

1:14:02of public housing to the Housing Choice

1:14:04Voucher Program. And that is what the

1:14:06Rental Assistance Demonstration Program

1:14:08is. And so, you're going to hear me

1:14:10speak a little bit about that. We refer

1:14:12to it as RAD, but that program takes

1:14:14those units out of public housing and

1:14:17get and provides the same level of

1:14:19assistance, 30% of your income, but it's

1:14:21on the voucher side of the house. And

1:14:23that allows us to have more sustainable

1:14:26programs and and more longevity.

1:14:29>> Just a quick question.

1:14:30>> Yes, sir.

1:14:31>> [clears throat]

1:14:31>> And these are these are congressional

1:14:34allocations, right?

1:14:35>> Yes, sir.

1:14:36>> And it's safe to say that Congress

1:14:38allocates

1:14:40assuming that the funding

1:14:43are they treating everyone the same?

1:14:45>> No, sir.

1:14:45>> Okay. So, cuz I'm thinking about the the

1:14:48aggressive growth and cost of living in

1:14:50Durham versus somewhere else, you aren't

1:14:54they I mean, if they're not adjusting

1:14:55for inflation, and therefore they're

1:14:56definitely not

1:14:58adjusting for

1:14:59the dynamics that we have here locally.

1:15:02>> No, sir. I'll say that that has been a

1:15:04common concern of housing authorities

1:15:06across the the country. A common concern

1:15:09that we all share is how HUD adjust

1:15:10those annual their factors that they use

1:15:13to look at this, because we want them to

1:15:15consider more of what's going on in the

1:15:16local environment. And so, that has been

1:15:19an issue for us across the country.

1:15:24Thank you.

1:15:30And so, with that, when I mentioned the

1:15:32fact that we're talking about

1:15:33underfunding for 30 years,

1:15:36the nation and its housing authorities

1:15:40have a funding backlog of a hundred and

1:15:42sixty-nine billion dollars for capital

1:15:45repairs alone.

1:15:48This is based on studies that have been

1:15:50presented and provided by the Council of

1:15:52the Large Public Housing Authorities.

1:15:55So, like public housing across the

1:15:57country, the Durham Housing Authority

1:15:58does have a backlog of capital needs.

1:16:01DHA's three largest properties,

1:16:03McDougald Terrace, Cornwallis, and

1:16:05Oxford Manor, are all over 50 years old.

1:16:08And so, when we look at what that looks

1:16:10like in Durham, what you'll see is that

1:16:13we had a physical needs assessment in

1:16:152022. Now, keep in mind, yesterday's

1:16:17price is not today's price, but our last

1:16:20round of physical needs assessments in

1:16:212022 generated a need for capital needs

1:16:25of 60 million dollars for the next 5

1:16:27years.

1:16:29We have a an allocation of capital funds

1:16:32that sometimes falls between and because

1:16:34of the the flux there, it can fall

1:16:36between three to four million or two to

1:16:38three million, and it really depends.

1:16:40But, where we are right now is that if I

1:16:43base it on the 2 to 3 million

1:16:45that we receive annually and I look at

1:16:47the next 5 years, we're talking about 10

1:16:49to 15 million dollars.

1:16:52How can we be successful

1:16:54when we're not even getting 20% of our

1:16:57capital needs?

1:17:01In addition to that, the 2020 McDougall

1:17:04Terrace crisis did result in us having

1:17:06to drain our organization's operating

1:17:09reserves.

1:17:11And then right after that, we went into

1:17:12our COVID-19 crisis or in the middle of

1:17:14that.

1:17:16And so we can feel this

1:17:18pretty much every day now because of the

1:17:20dramatic drop in rent payments in the

1:17:22wake of pandemic era moratoriums.

1:17:28So our current baseline, if I take us

1:17:30out of the background and the history,

1:17:32let's talk about where DHA is now. We're

1:17:35just going to give a baseline of where

1:17:36we are on our public housing units and

1:17:38things of that nature.

1:17:39Um and run through so we can get to some

1:17:42of the meatier parts of this discussion.

1:17:44So currently we're at 894 public housing

1:17:47units. Some of you may recall we were at

1:17:49once upon a time at 1,887

1:17:51units. But that is because we have been

1:17:53successful with converting our RAD

1:17:55units, converting our public housing

1:17:57units to the housing choice voucher

1:17:59program.

1:18:00And so because we've done that, those

1:18:02units are now considered under our

1:18:04voucher program and we'll talk about

1:18:05that in a in a future slide.

1:18:08We have 645 affordable units that we

1:18:10have an interest in, um either that we

1:18:12own or manage or we have an ownership

1:18:13interest in 300 units that are under um

1:18:16that are completed with joint ventures,

1:18:18and 500 units under construction.

1:18:20We have a little around 2,400 vouchers

1:18:23that are currently leased, which is 74%

1:18:25of our allocation, but we typically

1:18:27utilize anywhere between 90 and 105% of

1:18:30our budget authority.

1:18:32I'm happy to say that we are one of the

1:18:33very few housing authorities in the

1:18:34United States that is not currently in

1:18:36shortfall with our Housing Choice

1:18:38Voucher Program

1:18:39because we are watching how we use our

1:18:41budget very closely.

1:18:43We have 105 budgeted staff and an annual

1:18:46operating budget of $59 million.

1:18:49And most of that, I will repeat, is for

1:18:51our housing assistance payments under

1:18:53our Housing Choice Voucher Program.

1:18:55Those are the payments that are

1:18:56allocated for our landlords.

1:18:58And after that, we're talking about that

1:19:00allocation that jumps around a little

1:19:02bit for our capital fund. Right now,

1:19:03we're sticking with the $3.5 million

1:19:05annual number.

1:19:12Here I have a breakdown where you can

1:19:13see side by side how our um units or how

1:19:17our demographic stack up between our two

1:19:19areas. And so, for our housing where our

1:19:22community members live in our

1:19:23communities, where we lease housing, um

1:19:26these are their numbers on the left-hand

1:19:28side. And on the right-hand side are the

1:19:29the demographic numbers or the data

1:19:31around our Housing Choice Voucher

1:19:33Program um participants.

1:19:36And so, I'll keep in mind when we talk

1:19:38about an average rent that's based on

1:19:39someone's rent based on 30% of their

1:19:42income. At any point in time, if someone

1:19:44has a hardship of some sort um or if

1:19:46they cannot pay, we do have a minimum

1:19:48rent of $50. And if for some reason

1:19:51someone cannot afford that, they can

1:19:53come into the Housing Authority's office

1:19:55and say, "Hey, I'm having a hardship."

1:19:57And we'll take their rent down to zero.

1:20:00And where why we require that process is

1:20:03because we do have an obligation and a

1:20:04requirement to verify that a hardship

1:20:06does exist before we eliminate that.

1:20:11And so, in total, and we have about

1:20:134,000 households that we serve in

1:20:16Durham,

1:20:17which is approximately

1:20:19um I'm sorry.

1:20:21About Yes, it's a little over 4,000

1:20:23households across Durham. And in terms

1:20:25of individuals, we're talking about

1:20:269,000 individuals.

1:20:28In the past, you've heard us reference

1:20:3010,000 individuals, and that number has

1:20:32dropped and that's because we have um

1:20:35dropped the number of voucher households

1:20:36that we assist.

1:20:38Um that number has decreased over the

1:20:40years and we are allowing those numbers

1:20:42to decrease because we were over our

1:20:44budget authority and so we would not

1:20:46have had enough money to pay those

1:20:48landlords

1:20:49and if we were to release new vouchers.

1:20:56In terms of waiting list, I did not put

1:20:58this number on a slide, but just for

1:20:59context, we do have 26,000 people across

1:21:03our housing choice voucher waiting list

1:21:05and another 2,146

1:21:07people across our public housing waiting

1:21:09list.

1:21:14Now, let's get into the bond.

1:21:18So, as I stated, um we have to fo- as a

1:21:22housing authority focus on getting our

1:21:24units out of the um public housing

1:21:27program. And so with that, our strategy

1:21:30has been that we would do it using the

1:21:32Rental Assistance Demonstration Program.

1:21:35And so we are committed to repositioning

1:21:37all of our properties. We've been doing

1:21:38that using the RAD program and primarily

1:21:40on our larger sites, we do that um with

1:21:43the RAD program as well as redeveloping

1:21:44those larger sites.

1:21:46We have partnerships with public and

1:21:48private developers. I'm sorry, private

1:21:50developers and non-profit developers

1:21:52that help us with transfers of

1:21:54assistance, which is a RAD tool. So,

1:21:56when you hear us say transfers of

1:21:57assistance, we're taking something out

1:21:59of public housing

1:22:00and putting it on the Housing Choice

1:22:01Voucher Program.

1:22:06So, I mentioned that once upon a time we

1:22:08had 1,800 units. We're down to 894

1:22:11because we were successful with those

1:22:13conversions and this breaks down how we

1:22:15were able to do that.

1:22:17Now, we could not have done that without

1:22:19the city's support and partnership with

1:22:21the DHA Downtown Neighborhood Plan.

1:22:23It has been a tremendous effort and we

1:22:25are extremely grateful because it has

1:22:27been a catalyst for over $700 million in

1:22:30real estate development work in the

1:22:32Durham area just based on our RAD

1:22:34transactions.

1:22:36So, this is just a general my a general

1:22:39idea of what the DDMP planning footprint

1:22:42was and the communities that were

1:22:43impacted or planned to be impacted by

1:22:45the DHA downtown neighborhood bond

1:22:47funds.

1:22:48Um also now known as Forever Home Durham

1:22:51bond funds.

1:22:53And so, what you'll see is that there

1:22:55was the JJ Henderson, the Joyce, our old

1:22:58offices we were going to tear down and

1:22:59build housing on, but we've diverted

1:23:01that funding to Villages of Hayti, so

1:23:03that we can build housing there instead.

1:23:05We also have our former 519 Liberty

1:23:07Street site, known as our CNI site, and

1:23:10now we're calling it Momentum, as well

1:23:12as the Forest Hill Heights Tribute

1:23:13Rising site, and the Southside um the

1:23:17Southside phases three and I'm sorry, is

1:23:19it three and four? Three and four.

1:23:24So, this just gives you an overview of

1:23:26each one of those transactions, um

1:23:28hitting the highlights, some of which

1:23:30we'll talk about. I'm going to go ahead

1:23:32and get through these slides because I

1:23:33do know um that I I promised a shorter

1:23:36presentation,

1:23:37um but I don't want to belabor points

1:23:39that you all may see on the slides as

1:23:40well, so.

1:23:42Um the main thing here is that we have

1:23:44brought back um 200 um

1:23:48This is our JJ Henderson site. We

1:23:49brought back all 177 units,

1:23:52um and well as well as a new building

1:23:54called the Joyce on the JJ Henderson

1:23:56site with the bond funds.

1:23:58On our CNI site, we were partners

1:24:01together on the CNI grant, where we

1:24:04partnered based on our DDMP plans um for

1:24:08519 in Liberty Street.

1:24:11And on that site, we when we partnered

1:24:13to go after this grant, we were

1:24:14successful with that partnership, and we

1:24:16were awarded a $40 million Choice

1:24:18Neighborhood Implementation Grant for

1:24:20the benefit of 519 East Main Street and

1:24:22Liberty Street Apartments.

1:24:24And as a result of that, we've been able

1:24:26to use that funding to bring back up

1:24:28approximately 583 units, 45 of which are

1:24:31still in a process because they're going

1:24:33to go on a future phase. Um and they're

1:24:36going to be replaced off-site on Forest

1:24:37Hill Heights.

1:24:43We also have additional phases and I

1:24:45wanted to just make sure that you all

1:24:46had the pictures here so you can see

1:24:47inside the units.

1:24:49Um we do plan to host some tours to make

1:24:51sure that everyone gets a chance to

1:24:52actually experience what this

1:24:54um this investment has brought about.

1:25:01And it's a slide sequence of several

1:25:03more photos of the CNI site.

1:25:14And now we'll talk about Villages of

1:25:16Hope VI. So on Villages of Hope VI, if

1:25:18you all recall, it was great to see many

1:25:20of you at our groundbreaking event, our

1:25:22groundbreaking celebration for one of

1:25:24the most historic, monumental moments,

1:25:27in my opinion, in Durham history. Um and

1:25:30this is where we broke ground on the

1:25:31first phase of the Villages of Hope VI.

1:25:34The first phase, again, 215 52 units

1:25:38where we will have 30 units um for RAD

1:25:41transfers of assistance that I

1:25:43mentioned. Those transfers of assistance

1:25:45are coming from McDougald Terrace. And

1:25:48so 30 McDougald Terrace households will

1:25:50be replaced right there on this site.

1:25:54And I'm sorry, 30 McDougald Terrace

1:25:55units will be replaced on this site. The

1:25:58residents that currently reside in those

1:25:59units will follow their assistance.

1:26:03And this transaction had uh was about

1:26:06$80 million in project costs and there

1:26:07were $17 million in that from the bond

1:26:09fund.

1:26:11Phase two will also have affordable

1:26:12housing in that phase. It's going to be

1:26:1468 affordable homes for seniors.

1:26:19And these are just pictures. If you've

1:26:21drove by the Villages of Hayti site, I'm

1:26:24happy to report that you'll start to see

1:26:26structures out of the ground. We have

1:26:28gone vertical.

1:26:41And there are more photos and overhead

1:26:43shots of the Villages of Hayti site. So,

1:26:45here we are.

1:26:47We're here um we also

1:26:49we're here,

1:26:51but we still have more work to do. And

1:26:53so, we need to talk about what's next.

1:26:54But before we move on, we need to talk

1:26:56about the $40 million investment

1:26:58that was just on those previous slides

1:27:00that I was able to just walk through

1:27:02really quickly.

1:27:04That $40 million in investments, as I

1:27:06stated, has leveraged over $700 million

1:27:09in real estate development in Durham.

1:27:11Just for RAD.

1:27:14We haven't began to even talk about the

1:27:16CNI side of that investment from the

1:27:19bond funds. That has resulted in another

1:27:22$70 million

1:27:23in investment, which brings us to nearly

1:27:26$800 million

1:27:28in real estate development as a result

1:27:30of those bond funds.

1:27:34And that's only the beginning, because

1:27:36we only mentioned phase one of Villages

1:27:38of Hayti of Hayti. There are two more

1:27:40phases left.

1:27:42And there will be even more units and

1:27:45more more real estate development that

1:27:47are leveraged.

1:27:49We started with

1:27:51only 500 deeply affordable units in this

1:27:54area.

1:27:55And it was actually around four 400 some

1:27:57odd units in this area. We're going to

1:27:59now to 1,094 units just with the

1:28:02transactions that I named.

1:28:05But what's coming

1:28:07is a transaction that brings another not

1:28:10over 900 units.

1:28:12And before I go into that one, I just

1:28:14want to point out that without the city

1:28:18without the city of Durham's support,

1:28:21we're talking about the fact that 519

1:28:23would still be standing.

1:28:26Liberty Street Apartments will still be

1:28:28on that footprint.

1:28:31J.J. Henderson would have fallen by the

1:28:33wayside.

1:28:36The Joyce would have never been built.

1:28:40400 households, most likely most of them

1:28:43elderly, would have been in substandard

1:28:46housing.

1:28:48And so not only were we able to replace

1:28:50that housing, we were able to bring back

1:28:51hundreds more units for others.

1:28:56And this could not have been done

1:28:57without the city of Durham's support.

1:28:59And that is why we want to say thank

1:29:01you, and we truly appreciate it, and I

1:29:03know that there are about a thousand

1:29:04other people that will be in here

1:29:06rallying around this to say thank you as

1:29:09well.

1:29:10And so, what's next?

1:29:13In a couple of weeks, we're hoping to

1:29:14bring a transaction, hopefully to

1:29:16dispense the last uh round of the bond

1:29:18funds um for Tribute Rising. Um and so

1:29:21this Tribute Rising transaction is going

1:29:23on the Forest Hill Heights site that is

1:29:25currently 55 units of housing on four 14

1:29:29acres of land, and it's going to come

1:29:31back as 900 plus units across the entire

1:29:34site across three phases. We'll be

1:29:36coming uh before City Council requesting

1:29:39approval just for the first phase, uh

1:29:41but we do need some more time to work

1:29:43through and work it out.

1:29:47What's important to highlight here is

1:29:48that there are 55 RAD units that are

1:29:51going to be replaced back on this site.

1:29:53And there will also be those 45 units

1:29:55that we mentioned from our CNI site that

1:29:57are coming over as well. And we have to

1:29:59have those constructed in order to close

1:30:01out the CNI grant with HUD.

1:30:04Also in phases two and three of this, we

1:30:06plan to have 150 RAD units. Those RAD

1:30:09transfer of assistance units on this

1:30:12side as well.

1:30:14And I'll talk a little bit about what

1:30:15that means in a few moments.

1:30:18Other units outside of the bond funds,

1:30:20and this is critically important because

1:30:21it helps to highlight what we're doing

1:30:23for our other

1:30:25communities outside of the bond fund

1:30:26sites.

1:30:28Our Sandy Ridge Station with 50 transfer

1:30:31of assistance units from Oxford Manor.

1:30:34Pearson Flats with 50 additional units

1:30:37from McDougall Terrace.

1:30:39The Renegade Apartments across from the

1:30:41H A's old central offices, 22 transfer

1:30:44of assistance units.

1:30:46Southside phases three and four, 23

1:30:49transfer of assistance units from

1:30:50McDougall Terrace.

1:30:52And then Revival Apartments, 53 transfer

1:30:55of assistance units from McDougall

1:30:56Terrace.

1:30:59We have some photos where you can see

1:31:01inside of 300 East Main, also known as

1:31:03Renegade Apartments.

1:31:06And Revival, which is going to be the

1:31:08where the 53 RAD units that are coming

1:31:11from McDougall Terrace will go.

1:31:13This is just a couple of photos

1:31:15regarding that.

1:31:21So now let's talk about our remaining

1:31:23public housing inventory.

1:31:27So we've had success with the bond

1:31:29program. It's been a catalyst to help us

1:31:33move some of our public housing out of

1:31:35the inventory and create new housing,

1:31:36but we still have several units that

1:31:38remain. Several communities that remain.

1:31:42And so as you can see, we mentioned TOAs

1:31:44quite a bit on this table here or on

1:31:46this that you can to show you that we

1:31:48we are going to continue with our work

1:31:50in that process.

1:31:51So we

1:31:53we've landed with 895 94 units. And when

1:31:56all is done, we will have 579 units

1:32:00remaining.

1:32:01And so we're focused on planning around

1:32:02those 579

1:32:04units.

1:32:06There was a planning process with the

1:32:07McDougald Terrace community members back

1:32:10at over I'm going to say back in 2023,

1:32:122024 and that's where a plan was I'm

1:32:15sorry, 2023 a plan was reproduced

1:32:17produced and submitted to have based on

1:32:18that feedback.

1:32:20And in that plan HUD did approve it in

1:32:222024 and we consider what's called a

1:32:24build first model.

1:32:27We are pursuing a build first model

1:32:28because there are significant number of

1:32:30households that reside in McDougald

1:32:31Terrace and we wanted to make sure that

1:32:33we had housing to place to relocate them

1:32:36to before we started work on the site.

1:32:39Our build first strategy actually

1:32:41contemplates Lincoln Apartments.

1:32:44So if you see on the diagram here bottom

1:32:46left hand corner of the photo Lincoln

1:32:48Apartments is just south of McDougald

1:32:49Terrace.

1:32:51We have just recently closed a

1:32:53solicitation process where we requested

1:32:55qualifications for developer partners

1:32:57for the redevelopment of the Lincoln

1:32:58Apartments site.

1:33:00Um and we closed that process and we are

1:33:01now looking at those proposals or we

1:33:04have an evaluation committee looking at

1:33:05those proposals

1:33:07in order to make a recommendation to our

1:33:08board for consideration.

1:33:11We're hoping to have that recommendation

1:33:13available to our board in November so

1:33:15that way we can make an an offer to a

1:33:18developer partner and start getting down

1:33:20to brass tacks

1:33:21in 2027.

1:33:29And so just going into the McDougald

1:33:31Terrace repositioning progress

1:33:34based on all of those TOAs or those

1:33:36transfers of assistance that I mentioned

1:33:38you'll see that McDougald Terrace

1:33:39started at 360 units. We are now down to

1:33:4255%.

1:33:44I'm sorry, we're we've transferred over

1:33:46or committed to transfers for over 50%

1:33:49of those units.

1:33:52And that leaves about 149 units that we

1:33:54need to plan for on the Lincoln

1:33:56Apartments site, and as I stated, we're

1:33:58evaluating partners.

1:34:01We're doing the same thing with Oxford

1:34:02Manor. Oxford Manor, 172 units. We have

1:34:06done those transfers of assistance.

1:34:08We've committed um transfers of

1:34:10assistance to three transactions

1:34:11already. Of the 172 units, 58% of them

1:34:15are on track to be removed from public

1:34:17housing and placed into new construction

1:34:19buildings.

1:34:20And that leaves a remainder of 73 public

1:34:23housing units. And we are already in

1:34:25talks with the developer partner about

1:34:26transferring though that assistance to

1:34:28another site.

1:34:31For our future repositioning,

1:34:33we do still have some work to do. Um

1:34:36we're working with Corn Wallace. We have

1:34:3849 of the 200 original units.

1:34:41Um that's 25% of the site already

1:34:43planned for transfers of assistance to

1:34:45brand new construction units.

1:34:47Um we are planning to put the remaining

1:34:49151 units in phases two and three of

1:34:52Tribute Rising.

1:34:55And here we go through There's a table

1:34:57that's available where we have a

1:34:58conservative projection around how we're

1:35:01going to work continue our work to move

1:35:04these additional units out of public

1:35:06housing and into new construction units

1:35:08or some form of rehabilitated housing.

1:35:12This schedule is conservative and we

1:35:14time it just like this because we don't

1:35:16want to overstate um what our abilities

1:35:19are, but this is where we are with this.

1:35:27For public housing performance

1:35:29improvements,

1:35:32this is where we have that opportunity

1:35:34to talk about the fact that

1:35:36we are the owners or the holders of a

1:35:39troubled program.

1:35:41And so with that,

1:35:42um the Durham Housing Authority, we

1:35:45we are the beneficiaries of government

1:35:48funding, but we have to be the managers

1:35:50or administrators of a failed system.

1:35:53And so based on that, we are ultimately

1:35:57addressing the fact that we have decades

1:36:00of underfunding in capital improvements,

1:36:02and it does impact unit conditions.

1:36:05So the Durham Housing Authority is a

1:36:07troubled housing authority. We entered

1:36:09into a recovery agreement with HUD um

1:36:12back in 2022

1:36:14um to look at some objectives that they

1:36:17wanted to see that we could meet. And

1:36:18those objectives were primarily focused

1:36:20on improving unit conditions, improving

1:36:23occupancy, and also repositioning

1:36:25McDougald Terrace.

1:36:27The way we stated here is our recovery

1:36:29focus falls into four buckets because we

1:36:31now know, in light of some of the things

1:36:34that have changed since we first went

1:36:35into the recovery agreement, that we

1:36:36have other focus areas as well.

1:36:39Because the Durham Housing Authority was

1:36:40not able to achieve the the metrics, and

1:36:43of course how could we when we're

1:36:45talking about 20% of the need

1:36:48to accomplish some of these metrics.

1:36:51Because of that, we did have to um enter

1:36:54into um or we're starting to work with

1:36:56cure monitors from HUD regarding our

1:36:58public housing performance.

1:37:01Yes, sir.

1:37:01>> But I

1:37:02Let me make sure I understand that

1:37:03correctly. So they

1:37:07HUD positions you in a disadvantage

1:37:09position, and then grade you based on

1:37:11that disadvantage position?

1:37:15>> Yes, sir.

1:37:16>> Okay. That sounds like the grading

1:37:18system with our school system.

1:37:20>> Yes.

1:37:21>> Okay.

1:37:22>> Yes, sir.

1:37:24And so where our focus now

1:37:27where our focus is now is on the fact

1:37:29that we have to recover our public

1:37:31housing program. That has been our focus

1:37:32for the last several years.

1:37:34Um it's focusing on deploying millions

1:37:36of dollars in capital funds that are

1:37:38available into our units. We'll speak

1:37:40about that very high level so I can get

1:37:41through the slides because I don't know

1:37:42if I'm getting those looks because I'm

1:37:44way past time, but

1:37:45>> I've been I've been stealing your time

1:37:47twice, but you know, you get to ask some

1:37:48[laughter] questions.

1:37:49>> So, I'll go on and uh keep it pretty

1:37:51high level from this point out, but the

1:37:54um the work that we're doing is focused

1:37:56on these primary areas because it has

1:37:58been identified in our work with our HUD

1:38:01Cure monitors. And so, basically what

1:38:03HUD said was that you did not meet them

1:38:05the targets, and so

1:38:07um

1:38:07we are not going to move forward with a

1:38:10more aggressive action. What we are

1:38:12going to do instead is we understand

1:38:13that we see the work that you're doing.

1:38:15We see the partnership with the city,

1:38:17and we see that it's a process. And so,

1:38:20we want to allow additional time for you

1:38:23all to continue working at achieving

1:38:24these milestones. They've assigned us

1:38:27two Cure monitors that are working with

1:38:29us very closely um to look at strategies

1:38:32on how we can continue to improve our

1:38:34performance, as well as helping us to

1:38:36make sure that we're as aggressive as

1:38:38aggressive as possible with our

1:38:39portfolio repositioning plan.

1:38:45In that recovery, we focus again lease

1:38:47enforcement, resident engagement, and

1:38:49tenant leadership is a a key part of

1:38:51that. Um and but we have also have to

1:38:55focus on we have to focus on the units,

1:38:57and so

1:38:58where we talk about this is on our

1:38:59capital improvement slide. We walked

1:39:01through several of the capital

1:39:01improvements that have been made. We've

1:39:03invested at least $12 million in capital

1:39:05funds alone in the communities to make

1:39:07these improvements. Um and I do have a

1:39:10note there regarding the Cornwallis

1:39:11sinkhole because it is a part of the

1:39:13budget um that we are working on with

1:39:16our current capital funds.

1:39:17Um the sinkhole repair for Cornwallis

1:39:20will require $1.3 million,

1:39:22and so it is contemplated in the capital

1:39:23improvements that we have to make.

1:39:26For the participatory budget grant, we

1:39:29have um completely deployed all of the

1:39:32improvements in Cornwallis. Um those

1:39:34Cornwallis did benefit from the

1:39:38um lighting upgrades and cameras.

1:39:41Um we also did the improvements at Price

1:39:43Steel Place um with the additional

1:39:45camera improvements and lighting as

1:39:46well. There is one minor item related to

1:39:49power grid power line in the elevators

1:39:51that we're working on as well.

1:39:53And beyond that, we are just preparing

1:39:55for

1:39:56the Oxford Manor community cameras that

1:39:58we are so in desperate need of.

1:40:02We have a slide that talks about our

1:40:04rent collection. We've spoken about that

1:40:05before in the past as it related to some

1:40:07of the other grant program the

1:40:09opportunities we had to address you all

1:40:12and we were significantly um

1:40:15we're still deploying significant

1:40:16efforts to

1:40:18pursue rent collection for past due rent

1:40:21as it is a critical part of us being

1:40:22able to continue to operate.

1:40:25For

1:40:28our going to I'm moving through here.

1:40:30I'm moving I'm moving. So audit status,

1:40:32we have completed six audits in two

1:40:34years.

1:40:36And our housing choice voucher program,

1:40:38we have a tremendous amount of momentum

1:40:40there as well.

1:40:42Our housing choice voucher program did

1:40:44fall into trouble status during COVID-19

1:40:46as our staffing did drop below

1:40:49if we have a normal program operation of

1:40:5115 people, we at one point were at least

1:40:54with only five people in the department.

1:40:56And so we've had to do a lot of work to

1:40:58get the the housing choice voucher

1:40:59program turned around and I'm happy to

1:41:00say that that was accomplished in two

1:41:02years. We are now standard performers

1:41:05and have areas of improvement based on

1:41:07our review that are listed on a slide

1:41:09here as well.

1:41:13In conclusion

1:41:17we are creating new housing

1:41:19opportunities for traditional avenues

1:41:21using our RAD program and we are also

1:41:25working with our partnerships. Our

1:41:27partnerships are strong ranging across

1:41:29the city, county, and private

1:41:30developments. Um

1:41:32in addition to that, we know that we

1:41:34have continued challenges in our units

1:41:37and it's not that it's an impossible

1:41:38job. We're but we're the holders of

1:41:40that.

1:41:41No, things are not perfect, but we are

1:41:44tackling the issues of systemic failure.

1:41:48And this is a systemic failure of the

1:41:50public housing program that we can't

1:41:51control, and that is a federal failure.

1:41:56We are doing this to eliminate

1:41:58the isolated status of our current

1:42:00public housing communities. And so, when

1:42:02we go through our RAD conversions, it's

1:42:03about bringing our communities back into

1:42:05the fabric of Durham. No more isolation.

1:42:09And so, we have to focus on bringing

1:42:10housing to the market that is

1:42:12sustainable for the long term, but also

1:42:15that brings public housing to the

1:42:17housing choice voucher platform, so it's

1:42:18something that can be maintained.

1:42:22What we do need help with is continued

1:42:24support for the affordable housing bond

1:42:26program,

1:42:27and also that extend to extend grace as

1:42:29we work through significant challenges.

1:42:33And we are very grateful for the

1:42:34resources that have been pushed our way,

1:42:36and especially community partnerships.

1:42:40And with that, I will yield the floor.

1:42:43Um, I thought I could trick you guys out

1:42:45of that short presentation, but

1:42:47I got a few more minutes in anyway.

1:42:50>> Well, thank you so much. This is a lot

1:42:52of information, but I think it what we

1:42:54needed to see

1:42:56because there are always a lot of

1:42:57questions.

1:42:58And um,

1:42:59I'd like to just bring it to my

1:43:00colleagues for any uh discussion.

1:43:03Council member Ricks, thank you for your

1:43:05service

1:43:06on the uh DHA board. Uh, this is a lot

1:43:08to

1:43:10I mean, considering the other non-boards

1:43:12you have, this is a lot to take on. Um,

1:43:15so thank you. Uh, colleagues,

1:43:17I'll start to my left.

1:43:22>> Thank you so much for that presentation.

1:43:24Um,

1:43:25I'll just start with a couple questions.

1:43:28Um,

1:43:30I think

1:43:31the there are only a few players in town

1:43:34for permanent affordability and DHA is

1:43:36the biggest one and then maybe the

1:43:39Durham Community Land Trust.

1:43:40Um and so

1:43:43it it it looks like what Congress wants

1:43:47is privatization of uh housing authority

1:43:50units and public housing so that it

1:43:53doesn't look like it used to and doesn't

1:43:55look like it does today. Um you pointed

1:43:58out in the presentation the massive drop

1:44:00in um units within the portfolio of the

1:44:04housing authority. So uh my question my

1:44:07first question is if we had a time

1:44:09machine and could go back, were there

1:44:12any other avenues

1:44:14to um investing in public housing units

1:44:20that didn't involve convert these

1:44:22conversions to these RAD conversions and

1:44:26um shifting public housing units over to

1:44:30vouchers?

1:44:32>> So to answer your question, there

1:44:34possibly

1:44:35there there were limited avenues.

1:44:38Um but I want to preface with how you

1:44:41started with the question is around the

1:44:43loss of public housing units. No, it's

1:44:46the remote the moving public housing

1:44:48units to the housing choice voucher

1:44:49platform. We have retained all of our

1:44:52affordable units. We're just under a new

1:44:55platform that actually is more stable

1:44:58for the long term for those households.

1:45:01>> Okay, I appreciate that. So um does does

1:45:04the housing authority lose assets? I

1:45:06mean is is um in these conversions, the

1:45:09RAD conversions, does the housing

1:45:11authority retain ownership over these

1:45:14properties?

1:45:15>> Absolutely. We maintain an ownership

1:45:18interest by the fact that we lease the

1:45:20land. We do not give away our land and

1:45:23we keep restrictions on the land to

1:45:24ensure that it's long-term

1:45:25affordability.

1:45:26>> Okay, thank you. And then um the only

1:45:28other question just just for now is the

1:45:31the right to return.

1:45:33What's the track record for right to

1:45:35return?

1:45:36>> And so in terms of the success rates,

1:45:38I'm going to

1:45:39look back here at a colleague because I

1:45:41know that they have that information

1:45:42readily available, but the right to

1:45:45return stays with that household as long

1:45:47as they are on record, so it doesn't

1:45:50leave. They're sorry, they always have

1:45:54the right to return.

1:45:56However, what we have observed in the

1:45:58CNI grant is that some households would

1:46:00prefer to remain in public housing.

1:46:03Or remain where they are and we believe

1:46:05some of that is really related to the

1:46:07fact that they just don't really want to

1:46:08move again. And some of it is really to

1:46:10do with that they might be a little

1:46:12afraid of the new

1:46:14and what that brings. In terms of

1:46:16numbers, I do have the data. If you give

1:46:18me 1 second, I'll flip to it for you.

1:46:39So if we're looking specifically at our

1:46:41CNI site,

1:46:43we had originally 214 units on that site

1:46:46and so all of those units are being

1:46:48constructed and we're north of that now.

1:46:51In terms of who's returning, I'll have

1:46:54to turn to Karen to see if she can help

1:46:56me with answering that question.

1:47:02>> Good afternoon, Karen Latta, Durham

1:47:04Housing Authority.

1:47:05So although we demolished 214 public

1:47:08housing units, we actually only had 125

1:47:12households at the time that the Choice

1:47:14Neighborhoods grant was awarded and that

1:47:16was because the authority had

1:47:18intentionally let the unit the

1:47:19properties go vacant

1:47:21it we knew it would be a challenge to

1:47:23relocate in a in a tough market. So, we

1:47:26started with 125 households.

1:47:30Um we are now down to um about what we

1:47:34consider 94 so original households

1:47:38through a combination of we've we have

1:47:40lost um a number of households to death

1:47:42which was a a property with a large

1:47:44number of seniors

1:47:46um as well as some evictions and people

1:47:48choosing to move out of state, move move

1:47:51to other places.

1:47:52Um to date of that 90-ish households,

1:47:55we've had

1:47:58um 20 16 households who have come back,

1:48:01three households who are moving this

1:48:03week

1:48:05um and another 10 households or so who

1:48:08are contemplating moving into a phase

1:48:10that should be done in a in a few weeks.

1:48:12Um that's our core group of people who

1:48:15have indicated they want to come back.

1:48:18We expect that when we have two more

1:48:20buildings um open up next year that

1:48:22we'll have um some additional folks

1:48:24decide they want to come back.

1:48:26What we found was in our relocation

1:48:29um we moved a number of folks to brand

1:48:32new um or relatively new LIHTC projects.

1:48:35And so, they're not feeling a huge need

1:48:37to move again, to come back to a brand

1:48:40new low-income housing tax credit

1:48:41project.

1:48:42And a number of our

1:48:44um

1:48:45of our uh

1:48:46residents

1:48:48are more comfortable in the public

1:48:49housing um environment. They they are a

1:48:51little more anxious about being under

1:48:53private management. And that is

1:48:55something that we're working on from an

1:48:57education perspective

1:48:59um trying to prepare our residents as

1:49:02they move back onto the site because it

1:49:04is a very different regime.

1:49:06And residents need to know what they're

1:49:09getting into so that they are housing

1:49:11stable and don't run the risk of of

1:49:13losing their housing when they really go

1:49:14back onto for site.

1:49:19All right, thank you all. I'll stop

1:49:20there for now and let other colleagues

1:49:22ask questions.

1:49:25>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor, and thank you, Ms.

1:49:26Brown, for this presentation. Um

1:49:30So, some questions that come to mind.

1:49:32First of all, you've been with DHA for

1:49:35some time, and so you have a bit of

1:49:36history on it, and I'm sure you had

1:49:37conversations with prior leadership.

1:49:40Did our housing stock at some point fall

1:49:42farther behind other communities?

1:49:45Or the age of our housing stock, the

1:49:47state of it that we've been trying to,

1:49:49you know, address for for some years

1:49:50now, was that reflective of experiences

1:49:52of other communities around the country,

1:49:55given HUD's kind of historic

1:49:57underfunding of their properties?

1:49:59>> Very much so. Um uh

1:50:02In terms of how others other public

1:50:04housing authorities are dealing with

1:50:05this across the country, as well, where

1:50:06they have aged housing stock, but I will

1:50:08say that in Durham, um

1:50:11we

1:50:12we do have some older housing stock, and

1:50:14while there are communities that have

1:50:16aged housing stock, this the housing

1:50:18stock that's over 50 years old, we have

1:50:20to focus on getting out of our

1:50:21inventory. Um this is a national issue.

1:50:25However, there are some housing

1:50:26authorities that were able to move

1:50:28earlier on because they had the

1:50:30resources to do so, and they were able

1:50:32to get out of public housing a lot

1:50:33faster. And so, some of those housing

1:50:35authorities you may um hear about from

1:50:37time to time. They include um housing

1:50:39authorities that were able to make those

1:50:42changes based on being bond rated and

1:50:43being able to go to the private market

1:50:45to get funding to make those transitions

1:50:47happen. Um whereas the Durham Housing

1:50:49Authority was not able to do that. In

1:50:51terms of your question, if there were

1:50:53ever if there was ever a time where we

1:50:54fell farther behind, there was a season

1:50:57where the Housing Authority was focused

1:50:59on, "How are we going to deal with the

1:51:01extent of capital repairs um versus

1:51:05um replacing the housing." And during

1:51:08that time, the Housing Authority did

1:51:09pursue a portfolio-wide conversion for

1:51:12its public housing communities. And in

1:51:15that portfolio-wide conversion process,

1:51:17what the housing authority was looking

1:51:18at was doing capital improvements, but

1:51:21not necessarily replacing the housing.

1:51:24And so that process changed in 2016

1:51:28when it was determined that you can't

1:51:30duct tape

1:51:31sinking storm water drains and or you

1:51:35can't paint that. You need to replace.

1:51:38You need to tear it down and replace

1:51:39that. And so the housing authority

1:51:41looked at it at it from a different way.

1:51:43Now, I wasn't there before then, but I

1:51:46just wanted to make sure I answered your

1:51:47question.

1:51:48>> Yeah, thank you for that.

1:51:49>> Yes, sir.

1:51:50>> So,

1:51:51we're going through this process of

1:51:52repositioning

1:51:53and you have a situation like the MAC

1:51:56and another communities where you have

1:51:57some folks who've moved out and others

1:52:00who still remain. I think the slide said

1:52:022030 will be the completion of the TOAs

1:52:05for the MAC.

1:52:06And one of the concerns I've heard from

1:52:08residents is that in the meantime, if

1:52:10you're living next to a vacant unit,

1:52:13that can lead to a lot of health

1:52:16and sort of sanitation challenges for

1:52:18residents who are still there maybe

1:52:19between two units where no one's living.

1:52:22What sort of support, you know, is DHA

1:52:24able to give and able to address that

1:52:26sort of challenge for folks who are

1:52:28remaining in some cases for another

1:52:30three or four years?

1:52:32>> Thank you for the question. We're

1:52:33actually looking at households that may

1:52:35be between vacant units so we can

1:52:36prioritize them for the opportunity for

1:52:39transfer of assistance. Um so we're

1:52:41looking at that strategically to see if

1:52:43we can get those units consolidated

1:52:46down to where there are occupied

1:52:48buildings and less of those

1:52:49onesy-twosy's. Um it is something that

1:52:51we're looking at as well as ways to get

1:52:54those households and construct and units

1:52:55that have already been constructed.

1:53:02>> So next, I'm just curious what sort of

1:53:04feedback you get directly from residents

1:53:06or have heard just sort of in research

1:53:08from other communities

1:53:10when you are repositioning folks from

1:53:12one property to multiple properties

1:53:14which I know that you know can impact

1:53:16the fabric of a of a community.

1:53:18>> Very much.

1:53:19>> Um what sort of feedback do you get on

1:53:21on that and is there is there much that

1:53:23can be done about that if you are

1:53:26ultimately

1:53:27you know building new units in multiple

1:53:29places?

1:53:30>> That's a really good question. Um the

1:53:32way that we do approach that is we

1:53:33typically try to do transfers of

1:53:35assistance relatively close to the

1:53:37originating site. Um so that way we're

1:53:39not doing too much disruption because we

1:53:41also do consider the schools um and

1:53:43things like that that may be a part of

1:53:45that concept that that the the equation

1:53:47that we need to consider. Um and so

1:53:49that's one approach. But beyond that

1:53:51when we're talking about multiple sites

1:53:53it really there are when we're talking

1:53:55about relocation we have people working

1:53:56directly with those households to do

1:53:58needs assessments and to understand what

1:54:00are your needs and what's changing in

1:54:02order to make sure that we're relocating

1:54:04them to where they actually want to go.

1:54:06Um and or what meets to a place that

1:54:09actually meets their needs.

1:54:12Okay.

1:54:13>> Uh and two more quick questions. Thank

1:54:14you colleagues. Um so first is

1:54:17you know I know another thing I've heard

1:54:18from residents is

1:54:20some concern about repayment and having

1:54:22an understanding of how much they owe

1:54:25and if you know concerns about kind of

1:54:26consistency or transparency around that.

1:54:29Um you know what are some of the causes

1:54:32of of those challenges and are there

1:54:33steps that can be taken to address that

1:54:35so people sort of know what they owe and

1:54:37can can move forward uh to make those

1:54:40payments.

1:54:41>> To address the issue if someone has

1:54:42questions about what they owe they can

1:54:44always contact their management office.

1:54:46Um and the management office can go over

1:54:48their ledger with them to help them walk

1:54:50through the how their rent was

1:54:51calculated and any discrepancies or

1:54:53questions that they might have about

1:54:54their ledger. Um some potential causes

1:54:57of that it could be that in some

1:54:59circumstances that the household um

1:55:02there may have been a request for a

1:55:03decrease in their rent that the

1:55:05management team needed to, um, go on and

1:55:07process. And if that is something that

1:55:09they identify, if they're reviewing that

1:55:11with the household, they can certainly

1:55:12go on and make sure to get the record

1:55:14recorded and adjust it to ensure that

1:55:16those rents are adjusted appropriately.

1:55:19From there was also a season at one

1:55:21point where we were very short-staffed.

1:55:23And so there are some instances where

1:55:25households may have, um, had, uh,

1:55:28a certification like a rent decrease

1:55:30completed later than normal. And when

1:55:33when we got the new staff and they

1:55:34completed those transactions or those

1:55:36actions for those households,

1:55:38and it reduced their rent, or if that

1:55:41person and had a new job and it

1:55:43increased their rent,

1:55:45I can understand that they might have

1:55:46questions about, "Hey, what's this on my

1:55:47ledger?" And so that's that opportunity

1:55:50again where we ask that they contact the

1:55:51management office. The management office

1:55:53does send them something in writing

1:55:55explaining these things, but that is an

1:55:57opportunity for them to have that

1:55:58one-on-one discussion about their own

1:56:00account and walk through what

1:56:02transpired.

1:56:03And again, if there is an ever an issue

1:56:04where there was a rent increase and it

1:56:07was done retroactively, we always adjust

1:56:09the account to give 30 days notice. And

1:56:11if there's an instance where that has

1:56:12been missed, if it is brought to our

1:56:14attention, we will rectify it

1:56:16immediately.

1:56:18>> All right, thank you and I'll pause

1:56:19there. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

1:56:24>> Good afternoon, Ms. Brown. Nice to see

1:56:25you. So I will say for my colleagues I

1:56:27did have a chance to meet Ms. Brown over

1:56:29the summer for a lengthy quite bit of

1:56:30time, but it took a lot out of the

1:56:32guesswork for this. I came prepared for

1:56:33this. So thank you so much for the

1:56:34opportunity. Just a couple of questions

1:56:36for you. In regards to McDougald

1:56:38Terrace, um, I know that you're, you

1:56:40know, where housing units have been

1:56:42boarded up. Was this and I've expressed

1:56:43concern previously about the homeowners

1:56:45around there who were concerned about

1:56:46how that property looks and the impact

1:56:48to their property value. So what's the

1:56:49plan for that and how do you guys be

1:56:51good neighbors while you're in

1:56:51transition?

1:56:52>> Yes, ma'am. Thank you for that question.

1:56:54It's um, a really good question because

1:56:56it is something that is coming up and

1:56:57that we're hearing about. Um, and we

1:57:00also are concerned about the community

1:57:01members that live in the community

1:57:03having to see that blight every day.

1:57:04We've been fortunate actually, and I

1:57:06believe it was a member of council that

1:57:07has actually sent someone over um, from

1:57:10our uh, cultural arts program or the art

1:57:13program from the City of Durham to begin

1:57:15conversations with us about the

1:57:16potential to bring some art into the

1:57:18community for those faces that are

1:57:20vacant to beautify it and make it a more

1:57:21vibrant space. We just started those

1:57:23discussions last week or the week before

1:57:26um, and we're continuing to work

1:57:28continuing to work through that because

1:57:29this does present an opportunity for the

1:57:32potential of some murals and things of

1:57:34that nature to help bring back some

1:57:35vibrancy in the meantime.

1:57:37>> So, we want to put murals over like

1:57:39vacant properties that are dilapidated.

1:57:42That's the idea?

1:57:44>> That is one of the ideas until we can

1:57:47tear the buildings down unfortunately.

1:57:49Um, we do have to have some other that's

1:57:52the solution that we have come up with

1:57:53so far. Um, but outside of that it's

1:57:55just really about maintaining the units

1:57:57and maintaining the site.

1:57:58>> Okay, cuz I'm current concerned about

1:58:00the use of We don't have an infinite

1:58:01amount of dollars, so I'm just concerned

1:58:03about the use of money when we talk

1:58:04about that just seems interesting to me.

1:58:06My next question is for the um,

1:58:09the voucher programs. We've done a lot

1:58:11of building around here, so um, in

1:58:12Durham we've approved a lot of units to

1:58:13come online for affordable housing. Have

1:58:16you had any developers or um, private

1:58:18landlords reach out to you to offer um,

1:58:20some of those um, housing choice

1:58:22vouchers for the of these new

1:58:23developments? Cuz I know you said you

1:58:24have a a back list for what it was

1:58:2626,000 for one program and 2,000 26,000

1:58:29for housing choice and 200,000 200

1:58:32Sorry, 2,000. My bad. I don't want to be

1:58:34all that. For um, public housing. So,

1:58:36I'm just trying to figure out the

1:58:37ecosystem as we're approving all these

1:58:38developments and how's that assisting

1:58:39you all with meeting some of your goals?

1:58:41>> Well, in terms of the voucher program

1:58:43and and also the public housing units,

1:58:45those numbers are pretty fixed. And so,

1:58:47when we do do those transfers of

1:58:48assistance it's the same number of units

1:58:50that we started with. And so, yes, to

1:58:53answer your question, we do have a

1:58:54number of people that reach out to us in

1:58:56general offering units for the Housing

1:58:58Choice Voucher Program. Um, we ask that

1:59:00they list those units online at

1:59:02affordablehousing.gov

1:59:05.com affordablehousing.com.

1:59:08So, if there are Housing Choice or

1:59:09landlords that are interested in listing

1:59:11their units for affordable housing um

1:59:14for the use of a Housing Choice Voucher,

1:59:15we ask that they list it on

1:59:16affordablehousing.com

1:59:18because that is a central marketplace

1:59:20for um voucher renters across the United

1:59:23States to use to find a unit. Um, but we

1:59:25do have a number of them that reach out

1:59:27and that are committed to offering

1:59:28affordable housing or an opportunity for

1:59:30affordable housing lease-ups in Durham.

1:59:32Um, in terms of those private

1:59:34developers, um that a lot of them do

1:59:36accept vouchers and they have the

1:59:37opportunity as well to list their

1:59:38communities on the same site.

1:59:40>> Okay, thank you so much.

1:59:40>> Yes, ma'am.

1:59:44>> Thanks, Mr. Mayor. Thanks for your

1:59:45comments, too. Uh, it's my pleasure to

1:59:47serve on the Housing Authority Board. It

1:59:48is one of the more intensive boards I

1:59:49serve on. Um, Chair Bledsoe Well,

1:59:52Bledsoe drives us hard. Um, but you

1:59:54know, you really can't if you just go to

1:59:56the the larger board meetings, it's not

1:59:57as as you don't learn as much as you do

1:59:59at the committee meetings, which are

2:00:00really rich. But it's So, it's a lot of

2:00:02details. So, thank you for that. Um,

2:00:04first of all, Ms. Brown, thanks for the

2:00:05presentation. I think you did a great

2:00:06job of sort of summarizing the context,

2:00:09the challenges, the opportunities, and

2:00:11where we're going with public housing in

2:00:12Durham. So, really appreciate that. Um,

2:00:14I mean, I obviously have heard the story

2:00:15many times in our board meetings, but I

2:00:17think you if anything, what you were

2:00:19describing was the

2:00:21this hard work. It's really hard work.

2:00:24You're trying to you're you you showed

2:00:26the average rent is about $350. So,

2:00:28these are the folks in Durham who have

2:00:29the least ability to pay, and yet your

2:00:32resources from the government are being

2:00:33constrained. And so, serving those the

2:00:35most housing challenged with limited

2:00:37resources is incredibly hard. So, I just

2:00:39want to thank you for that, you and your

2:00:40staff, for the hard work you do. This is

2:00:42not easy work.

2:00:44Um,

2:00:45>> I'm sorry, can I respond to that,

2:00:46Council member?

2:00:46>> Yeah, yeah.

2:00:47>> I want to say thank you for that. Um,

2:00:49and I want to acknowledge the Durham

2:00:50Housing Authority staff that are in the

2:00:52room and the Durham Housing Authority

2:00:54staff that may be listening or may watch

2:00:56this later. It is a hard job and I want

2:00:58to say thank you for choosing to offer

2:01:00your service in Durham because I know

2:01:02that it is a

2:01:04a competitive industry for that skill

2:01:06set and for your talents. And the hard

2:01:09work that the team has done and

2:01:11continues to do is truly appreciated and

2:01:13I want to make sure that everyone of you

2:01:15know that we truly appreciate your

2:01:17contributions to the Durham Housing

2:01:18Authority and I hope you heard today

2:01:20that it's been acknowledged. Thank you.

2:01:23>> Um, also want to

2:01:25I mean, Councilwoman Baker, you think

2:01:26you're right on. I think what the

2:01:26government is the federal government is

2:01:27doing is like the is moving these units,

2:01:31it's creating incentives to move them to

2:01:32the private sector, right? Through

2:01:33through vouchers. You're absolutely

2:01:34right on about that. I think you can

2:01:36probably answer your own question now.

2:01:37Like, what could what else could we have

2:01:38done with limited capital funds coming

2:01:40from the federal government? It's like

2:01:41we

2:01:42we'd look around like

2:01:44foundations. The city we could find more

2:01:46more bond funds, but I think the dollars

2:01:48just aren't there. And so, the reality

2:01:50is is that as you're sort of again

2:01:51getting at it is um

2:01:53um, as Lotta mentioned, what's happening

2:01:55is that we are we are replacing aging

2:01:58units with new units, right? But these

2:02:00RAD conversions now are under we own the

2:02:02land, right? But they are under public

2:02:04management. And so, in the future as

2:02:06folks in these RAD conversions, their

2:02:08landlord is no longer the Housing

2:02:09Authority, it is a private company.

2:02:11Yeah, yeah. This is this is what's going

2:02:12This is the trade-off we're making, but

2:02:14uh

2:02:15essentially without that trade-off, we

2:02:17would be losing public housing units.

2:02:19It's a tough game. It's really tough

2:02:20game.

2:02:21>> Yes.

2:02:21>> Um, I want to just say that the work

2:02:24>> I can I

2:02:25>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:02:26>> One note though is even with that, we do

2:02:28have the opportunity to take back

2:02:30management um, in those agreements that

2:02:33we set up as well.

2:02:34>> Yeah. And so, in all this, to me it's

2:02:36somewhat miraculous. We like with all

2:02:38the work we've done in Durham with bond

2:02:39funds, we did not we did not fund

2:02:42redevelopment of the three biggest

2:02:43public housing communities as you

2:02:44mentioned, McDougald, Oxford Manor, and

2:02:46Cornwallis. And so, somewhat miraculous

2:02:49that even though there's no funding from

2:02:50the feds to do it, no funding locally,

2:02:52essentially what DHA has been doing is

2:02:54developing new housing and moving folks

2:02:56to the new housing. So, now half the

2:02:58families that were at McDougald are

2:02:59living there. Half the families at

2:03:01Oxford Manor and now a quarter of

2:03:02Cornwallis Road. So, it's not easy. It

2:03:04takes time, but we are actually doing

2:03:06the work even though there's no no

2:03:08funding so far from the city or from the

2:03:10feds. So, it's pretty miraculous. Um

2:03:13as you said, this is hard work. It's not

2:03:15perfect, but I want to again want to

2:03:16acknowledge what you've been doing and

2:03:17addressing the challenges we've had. And

2:03:19as you said, we you need patience. We

2:03:20need to provide some patience. But, it's

2:03:23a slow process. I know the troubled

2:03:24agency status is over our heads, but

2:03:26we're moving towards that. And I think

2:03:28it's going to be frankly difficult with

2:03:30these aging properties to get out of

2:03:32troubled status, right? Cuz what they're

2:03:33grading us on is unit conditions. It's

2:03:35difficult. So, the best thing we can do

2:03:36is move forward and develop new

2:03:37properties. So, I just want to thank you

2:03:39for that. I'll stop here. I think that

2:03:41The other thing is there was a question

2:03:42about McDougald Terrace, right? And I

2:03:44think in some ways it's on all of us.

2:03:46Like we've talked about new affordable

2:03:47housing bonds in Durham. I think that's

2:03:49something we need to consider in the

2:03:50next couple years. That's one way we

2:03:51could fund the McDougald Terrace

2:03:53complete renovation and and

2:03:55redevelopment. Without that, you know,

2:03:57that's it's still waiting for those

2:03:58resources. So, look forward to that. But

2:04:00again, thank you and your staff for all

2:04:01this. And I look forward to the

2:04:02conversation with my colleagues.

2:04:05>> Can I say one more thing?

2:04:08Can I?

2:04:09All right. So, one other note though in

2:04:11response to Council Member Burgess'

2:04:13question about how those private

2:04:15developers or private communities can

2:04:18help the housing authorities to that

2:04:19point

2:04:20that Council Member Wrist made is that

2:04:23they help us with though continuing our

2:04:25work to transfer our units

2:04:27out of also out of our public housing

2:04:29inventory. If there are private

2:04:30developers that have projects that seem

2:04:33palatable to what we need for our

2:04:35affordable housing communities, Um, can

2:04:37also partner with them to do those

2:04:39transfers of assistance

2:04:41um, so that we can put units into those

2:04:42properties as well. Um, but that of

2:04:44course is a a negotiation process and to

2:04:46make sure that it's something that works

2:04:48for our community members.

2:04:49Thank you.

2:04:52>> [clears throat]

2:04:53>> Thank you. Good afternoon. Um,

2:04:55I'm really struck by how much tenants

2:04:57are missing in this conversation. We're

2:04:58really talking a lot about buildings and

2:05:00financing and um, I think we're really

2:05:02missing the the human part of this story

2:05:05um, and I think historically that's been

2:05:08an issue where we've seen really good

2:05:11work towards future development and

2:05:13building and um, and collaboration with

2:05:16private developers and management and we

2:05:18really haven't seen the needs of our

2:05:20residents taken care of. Um, so I just

2:05:22want to center that for a moment. Um, I

2:05:25also want to note that there's a lot of

2:05:26conversation about federal failings and

2:05:28those are many. I don't think anyone

2:05:30here is in question that the federal

2:05:32government has not been supporting

2:05:33public housing. Um, but I also think

2:05:36it's important that we take

2:05:37accountability of our own stock as well.

2:05:39We've got comparable um, Raleigh and

2:05:42Greensboro with their uh, public housing

2:05:44authorities that both have an Inspire

2:05:46score of 83 and 87 respectfully. They're

2:05:49not any further down the privatization

2:05:51road than we are um, and yet we are

2:05:53continuing to fail in all of these

2:05:55aspects. So I think it's important to

2:05:56talk about

2:05:58the federal government failing yes, but

2:05:59also to take accountability for the

2:06:01issues that we're facing in Durham

2:06:03specifically. Um, so to that note, um,

2:06:06can you explain the corrective action

2:06:08plan that was submitted to HUD and in

2:06:11detail tell us um, what was proposed by

2:06:14the housing authority?

2:06:15>> Sure.

2:06:17When comparing us to the Raleigh Housing

2:06:19Authority, I also want to note that the

2:06:20Raleigh Housing Authority is a bond

2:06:21funded, I'm sorry, a bond rated housing

2:06:23authority which means that they can

2:06:25pretty much write their own checks.

2:06:27In addition to that, our Greensboro

2:06:29counterpart was very successful with

2:06:31their housing stock that was not nearly

2:06:32as old as the Durham Housing Authority

2:06:34with repositioning their assets pretty

2:06:36fairly early on um with a more simpler

2:06:39recon- repositioning strategy.

2:06:42For our Housing Choice Voucher Program,

2:06:44the Corrective Action Plan did um

2:06:46highlight that we're going to focus on

2:06:48our waiting list documentation, our

2:06:50inspection enforcement, payment standard

2:06:52review documentation, as well as Family

2:06:54Self-Sufficiency Program enrollment.

2:06:57What that entails is for Family

2:06:58Self-Sufficiency Program enrollment.

2:07:00That's a program where households can

2:07:02voluntarily participate in this program

2:07:05to increase their earnings um over a

2:07:075-year um individual participation

2:07:10contract. And over the over the term of

2:07:13that 5 years to the extent that their

2:07:14rent increases, that portion of that

2:07:17rent increase goes into an escrow

2:07:18account, and at the end of the 5 years,

2:07:19the households have access to that. Um

2:07:22but again, it's a voluntary

2:07:23participation, and so we do have to make

2:07:26sure that we continue our work to market

2:07:27the program to those that are interested

2:07:29and connected to actual goals that um

2:07:32the households would actually want to

2:07:34work towards um so that they will

2:07:35participate in the program. For Payment

2:07:38Standard Review, that's just simply

2:07:40documenting that we actually um having

2:07:43that additional documentation for our

2:07:44Payment Standard Review process. Um and

2:07:46we typically do document it, but we've

2:07:48gotten some additional information about

2:07:50um other ways that we can document the

2:07:52process that we went through um to um

2:07:54evaluate our payment standards. For

2:07:56Inspection Enforcement, that's basically

2:07:58when a unit fails inspection, making

2:08:00sure that it's removed from the program

2:08:02timely or that we abate those payments

2:08:04timely. And lastly, for Waiting List

2:08:05documentation, that um indicator was

2:08:08more of a training issue, um and we have

2:08:10since resolved that in terms of making

2:08:12sure that the employee that looked at

2:08:14that indicator and did the work to

2:08:16assess it has been trained um to make

2:08:18sure that it

2:08:19we're properly evaluating that indicator

2:08:21in the future.

2:08:22>> Um were there there were no other

2:08:23benchmarks than listed in there? Cuz I

2:08:24thought But were some about um timely

2:08:26submissions of audits and budgets.

2:08:29>> Well, when you're referencing the

2:08:30corrective action plan, I thought you

2:08:32were referring to our Housing Choice

2:08:33Voucher program. But the timely

2:08:35submission of our audits and budgets is

2:08:37a part of a conversation that we're

2:08:38having with HUD on the public housing

2:08:39program in general. Um and as we

2:08:41mentioned when we got into the

2:08:42conversation with HUD initially about

2:08:44some of the issues that we were having,

2:08:46we were significantly behind on our

2:08:48audits. We've completed six audits in 2

2:08:50years and actually the audit for last

2:08:52year was submitted 2 months early.

2:08:55>> Um we're going to talk a little bit

2:08:56about the RAD conversions. Obviously,

2:08:58it's not free to do it. Can you talk

2:09:00about the costs associated with it and

2:09:01also the funding sources for those um

2:09:05that we're planning to use in the

2:09:06future?

2:09:07>> Sure. So, RAD conversions

2:09:10that's a there's quite a bit in that

2:09:12question there because a RAD conversion,

2:09:14how we typically have been doing it as

2:09:16of late that you can see is with the use

2:09:17of the Affordable Housing Bond Fund

2:09:19program. And as I stated, the

2:09:21construction costs for new units um when

2:09:24we discuss that we're talking about

2:09:25mixed-income communities that have

2:09:27incomes for our units for not just those

2:09:29deeply affordable units to be replaced,

2:09:32but also

2:09:33and units for additional housing.

2:09:36Um

2:09:37when I mentioned the use of our RAD

2:09:38program and the cost of the development

2:09:40for those sites, it was in excess of

2:09:42$700 million, but has resulted in over a

2:09:45significant number of units that we over

2:09:48more than the the units that we

2:09:49replaced. And so, we're talking about

2:09:511,000 unit units now as opposed to the

2:09:53original 400.

2:09:56>> So, where is that where will that

2:09:57funding be coming from?

2:09:59>> It's already been funded through our

2:10:01development projects, and so we partner

2:10:03with developer partners and pull

2:10:04together performance to develop those

2:10:07projects. And typically, there's a

2:10:08capital stack associated with that

2:10:10development. That capital stack can

2:10:12include the bond funds. It can include

2:10:14grants from um different um development

2:10:18entities or development projects like

2:10:19the State Housing Finance Agency

2:10:21sometimes will fund some development

2:10:22projects.

2:10:24Um there's some private debt as well in

2:10:26some of those transactions. Um and

2:10:28that's where the

2:10:30operating income for the property will

2:10:31sustain that debt over the long term. Um

2:10:34and pretty much it's it varies based on

2:10:37the transaction. For our RAD transfers

2:10:39of assistance, the cost of construction

2:10:42is born by the or handled by the

2:10:44developer for that project.

2:10:46>> And can you talk about some of the pros

2:10:47and cons of some of those income

2:10:49streams?

2:10:51>> Um I think that that

2:10:53that's a I can answer it very generally.

2:10:55It really depends on those what those

2:10:58income streams are that are coming into

2:10:59the project.

2:11:00Some of the pros are that obviously it

2:11:02makes the funding available for the

2:11:04project. But some of the cons might be

2:11:06that there's additional restrictions

2:11:08that require

2:11:10some different things and mechanisms to

2:11:12kind of jig around, but really and truly

2:11:15it depends on the funding source

2:11:17and it depends on the project.

2:11:20>> How many of the RAD

2:11:22conversion properties are still managed

2:11:24by DHA and what is the plan for the

2:11:26future conversions?

2:11:29>> So currently there are about two

2:11:31properties, I'm sorry, two properties,

2:11:33two RAD conversion properties that are

2:11:34currently managed by DHA.

2:11:37And actually there are three. Those

2:11:39properties are Maureen Row, Day Mark

2:11:40Court, and Edgemont Elms. There are

2:11:42other communities that we have under

2:11:44private management because they were

2:11:46already under private management when

2:11:47they converted. And those are our whole

2:11:50six communities managed by our partner,

2:11:51The Community Builders.

2:11:53In addition to that, going forward our

2:11:56RAD conversion properties are currently

2:11:58private privately managed and we plan to

2:12:00continue that track where they go under

2:12:03private management so that they can

2:12:04stabilize the asset and make sure that

2:12:06it can perform sustainably.

2:12:10>> And you talked about DHA

2:12:12retaining the rights to the land. Is

2:12:14that DHA, is that DVI, or where is the

2:12:16discrepancy there?

2:12:18>> So, I don't call it a discrepancy. It's

2:12:20that the Durham Housing Authority has a

2:12:21development instrumentality called the

2:12:23Development Ventures Inc. also known as

2:12:25DVI. And so, with that, there's the same

2:12:28board for the for DVI that is the

2:12:31development instrumentality that we use

2:12:33in that transaction. The DVI,

2:12:36um,

2:12:37development instrumentality is a part of

2:12:38the ownership structure for those deals.

2:12:41>> Okay.

2:12:41Um, so as an advocate, I often have

2:12:44trouble figuring out on these RAD

2:12:46conversion properties what type of

2:12:47subsidy a specific tenant has.

2:12:50Um, I find that it's next to impossible

2:12:52for them to know, and when they come to

2:12:53ask, often they can't get that

2:12:55information. So, what type of community

2:12:57education are you doing and what type of

2:12:59record keeping are you doing to ensure

2:13:00that that problem doesn't continue?

2:13:03>> Well, the community education starts

2:13:04well before the RAD conversion actually

2:13:06happens. There are community

2:13:09meetings that happen throughout the

2:13:10process along the way before we actually

2:13:12convert, explaining to the households

2:13:15what's happening and what assistance

2:13:17they're going to. For our current RAD

2:13:19converting communities, with the

2:13:20exception of the three the three that I

2:13:22named initially,

2:13:24all of those are Housing Choice Voucher

2:13:26programs. And there may or may not be

2:13:28tax credits involved in some of those

2:13:30conversions.

2:13:31>> Right, and that's it's important to know

2:13:33because there's different protections

2:13:34for people who have tax credits or

2:13:36don't.

2:13:36>> Yes.

2:13:37>> Um, and so is there a methodology that

2:13:39we can do to list that out for folks

2:13:41because I think telling people is not

2:13:42enough.

2:13:43>> Absolutely. At the time that they

2:13:45actually lease up at that site, they are

2:13:47given a full packet of information that

2:13:49explains how their programs work. And

2:13:51so, there's something, um, that they

2:13:53receive for each of the programs, and

2:13:55it's also a part of the information that

2:13:57they receive in their lease. And so,

2:13:59they're informed at the time of lease

2:14:00up, but if you're recommending that

2:14:02there's something in advance of that,

2:14:05what we typically do is we give them

2:14:06that information in letters and notices,

2:14:08and we do document it in in tenant file

2:14:10that that information was sent out. And

2:14:12so it should be in their tenant file.

2:14:16Do you all retain that information?

2:14:20You're saying that we're retaining the

2:14:22letter the information that they get

2:14:23once they convert?

2:14:25Yeah. So when the household converts and

2:14:27they're in that new community, who's

2:14:29responsible for their files is the new

2:14:31that new file I'm sorry for that file is

2:14:33the new community management and they

2:14:35retain records of what they gave at the

2:14:37time of lease up. For the public housing

2:14:39communities, if there is a meeting, we

2:14:42do have records of the notices that were

2:14:43distributed and provided.

2:14:46>> Um and are all of these RAD conversions

2:14:48under Section 18?

2:14:50>> No, not all of them.

2:14:51>> talk about the other ones outside of

2:14:53Section 18?

2:14:55>> I'm sorry, you said talk about So

2:14:57>> Can you explain the difference?

2:14:59>> Sure, I what I'll do is I'll ask one of

2:15:00my colleagues to come up and help me

2:15:02with answering your question.

2:15:10>> Hi, my name is Eric Swan. I'm senior

2:15:12vice president of real estate

2:15:13development at the Housing Authority.

2:15:14Um so most of the transactions that we

2:15:17do have in our current pipeline are a

2:15:20product of the RAD Section 18 blend.

2:15:23Um so the at least in in recent history,

2:15:26uh the Elizabeth Street transaction was

2:15:28the was one that was not Section 18 that

2:15:31was pure RAD. Um at the time the Section

2:15:3318 rules did not allow for the pairing

2:15:36of the Section 18 program with a 9% tax

2:15:38credit. Um so uh the the rules have

2:15:42since changed uh through HUD so uh you

2:15:44can pair a 9% with the with the sec-

2:15:47Section 18 blend and so that's the the

2:15:49product that we've favored most

2:15:50recently. And so uh again, the you have

2:15:54to qualify for the Section 18 based on

2:15:56uh the high construction costs in the

2:15:58area and so there is sort of a In

2:16:00addition to the RAD component, there is

2:16:02a uh

2:16:04a Section 18 approval that runs

2:16:05concurrently. And so that's also done

2:16:07with HUD and they time it out so that

2:16:09you receive both approvals at the same

2:16:10time. So, essentially with the uh the

2:16:12Section 18 program allows us to pursue

2:16:15that that funding based on the

2:16:16obsolescence of the buildings that are

2:16:18involved um just given the the

2:16:19construction costs to maintain them

2:16:21versus building something new.

2:16:23>> Okay, thank you. That's helpful. Yeah, I

2:16:25mean, my concern about Section 18 and

2:16:27y'all know this, but there there's the

2:16:29allowance for market readjustments every

2:16:30year. And so, we're seeing for for

2:16:32example, we saw one property where the

2:16:34units went from um

2:16:35$800 to or $900 to $1,800 in 4 years.

2:16:40So, the tenant subsidy doesn't change,

2:16:42of course, but what HUD needs to provide

2:16:44now to make up for that remainder is

2:16:47going to be significantly larger after a

2:16:49doubling of um market rate in 4 years.

2:16:53So, a concern of mine, we're talking

2:16:55about um

2:16:56you know, more stability in these units,

2:16:58and that is that is certainly a concern.

2:17:01Um

2:17:04Yeah.

2:17:05>> The way that we manage those increases

2:17:07in in um the rent is that those pay

2:17:10those rent increases have to go through

2:17:11our voucher program for approval, and it

2:17:13has to be based on a fair market rent.

2:17:16Um

2:17:16uh that we perform an analysis through a

2:17:19reasonable rent study before we actually

2:17:21can approve it. And it also has to fall

2:17:23within an hour established payment

2:17:25standard. And so, if they decide that

2:17:27they want to do that, it does have to

2:17:29fall within. Now, we have seen in the

2:17:31data that based on the fair market rents

2:17:34that there are some instances where

2:17:36those larger increases are

2:17:37substantiated, but the subsidy that's

2:17:39allowed will allow will allow us to pay

2:17:41that subsidy.

2:17:44>> Yeah, but it's a lot more.

2:17:46>> Um okay, thank you. That's going to be

2:17:48all my questions on the on the Section

2:17:5118. Um

2:17:54Can we get the SEMAP reports and the

2:17:57most recent audits updated on the

2:18:00they're not available with the rest of

2:18:02your SEMAP reports or audits. Just

2:18:05letting you know, we don't have

2:18:06availability to audits from 2023 and

2:18:082024. And we don't have the same out

2:18:10from 2025 publicly available.

2:18:12>> When you say we, is it uh

2:18:14>> Um, on online on the online system. So,

2:18:16where all the rest of y'alls are

2:18:17consolidated on the on the federal

2:18:20I can't remember what the website's

2:18:21called, but all the rest of your stuff

2:18:22is up there, but not the audits from

2:18:242023, 2024, and the same up reports for

2:18:262025.

2:18:28>> Um, is it possible that you could let me

2:18:30know after and reference the Okay, thank

2:18:32you.

2:18:34>> Um

2:18:36And so, you talked a little bit about

2:18:37your policy around minimum rent, and I'm

2:18:39curious to know why you don't feel like

2:18:40the requirement is met if someone does a

2:18:42recertification and their income is zero

2:18:44dollars.

2:18:45>> Because it is actually our policy that

2:18:47there is a minimum rent. However, at the

2:18:49time of of doing that research, the

2:18:51household can let us know that there is

2:18:53a hardship and they cannot pay the

2:18:55minimum rent. And so, our policy does

2:18:57state that they have to say that they

2:18:58can't afford that minimum rent. So, the

2:19:01policy is there is a minimum rent, and

2:19:03we have to apply that, but if they

2:19:05request that hardship, then we can

2:19:07reduce it. And at the time of annual,

2:19:09they can say that. Now, if you are

2:19:11saying that you do not have any income

2:19:13in the household, there is a zero income

2:19:15certification that we complete at that

2:19:17time to evaluate um, the the that

2:19:21circumstance. Um, we as housing

2:19:24authority practitioners all know and

2:19:26understand that there are other

2:19:28contributions that come into that

2:19:29household as well that we do need to

2:19:31make sure that we account for. The

2:19:33general rule of thumb is that there is

2:19:36not a such thing always as zero income,

2:19:39and if there is, we can certainly allow

2:19:40them to request a hardship exemption at

2:19:43that time. But, we have to show

2:19:46for purposes of our compliance that the

2:19:49household truly needs that hardship

2:19:51exemption.

2:19:52>> All right, but they have to

2:19:53affirmatively ask for it.

2:19:54>> Yes.

2:19:56>> Um what are the current vacancy rates?

2:20:01>> So,

2:20:03currently for our public housing

2:20:04program, we're sitting at around 95%

2:20:06occupancy, and that is because of the

2:20:09allowed the vacancies that were allowed

2:20:11to take out of inventory, so we can

2:20:13pursue modernization efforts. For some

2:20:16of our affordable housing communities

2:20:17though, we will have to say that there

2:20:19are a couple of communities that do have

2:20:21lower occupancy rates.

2:20:23Um, that information

2:20:25Is there a specific community or you

2:20:27just want an overarching percentage for

2:20:29our affordable housing program?

2:20:30>> Yes, the latter.

2:20:32>> Okay.

2:20:34So, for affordable housing, the

2:20:36occupancy rate

2:20:38sits around

2:20:44We're at 86% occupancy on the affordable

2:20:46housing side.

2:20:49Okay.

2:20:50>> Um,

2:20:51and you talked to earlier about the le-

2:20:54the vouchers that y'all were actually at

2:20:56some point over- over committed. Um, but

2:20:59you also presented it in one of your

2:21:01board meetings that there's 21% of the

2:21:03vouchers that are not currently being

2:21:04used, so can you help me rectify that

2:21:06information?

2:21:07>> specific?

2:21:08>> Um, nope. That's that's what I've got.

2:21:10>> 21% of vouchers not being used, I'm

2:21:11going to say that that's related to our

2:21:13allocation, and that's correct. Based on

2:21:16our allocation, we do have room for

2:21:19up to 21% or maybe around over 21% more

2:21:22vouchers. However, based on our budget

2:21:24authority or what we can spend, as

2:21:27you've seen in the market when those

2:21:28rents have increased over the last

2:21:30several years, it has resulted in us

2:21:32having to pay larger subsidies. And so,

2:21:35because of that, it did result in us

2:21:37having to dip into our housing choice

2:21:39voucher admin- our housing choice

2:21:40voucher payment reserves, so that we can

2:21:42continue to operate the program

2:21:45over 100%. Um, but in terms of

2:21:49whether or not there were um instances

2:21:51where we have vouchers that we can

2:21:53allocate. That is not the case because

2:21:55we're over our budget authority.

2:21:56>> Mhm. And how long has it been since the

2:21:58wait list has opened?

2:22:00>> For our voucher program, the wait list

2:22:01has not opened since 2018 for

2:22:03tenant-based vouchers. Before our

2:22:05project-based vouchers,

2:22:06um those waiting lists open based on the

2:22:08needs of those communities and some of

2:22:09them are currently open now.

2:22:13>> Um and then

2:22:15can you explain the process of putting a

2:22:17voucher leasehold into abatement?

2:22:21>> So yes, I can, but I would like to ask

2:22:24that uh my colleague, Ms. Tonya Crowley,

2:22:26come up to the podium and explain that

2:22:27process for you. Thank you.

2:22:30>> Good afternoon. I'm Tonya Crowley,

2:22:32director of the Housing Choice Voucher

2:22:33Program. The way abatements work is when

2:22:35a unit fails two consecutive

2:22:37inspections, we are required to abate

2:22:39the unit. And the abatement means we

2:22:41withhold the um subsidy portion.

2:22:44>> And so I know that there were quite a

2:22:46few instances where payment was

2:22:47continuing out to landlords after that

2:22:49second failed inspection. What's being

2:22:51done to remedy that issue?

2:22:53>> And that's part of our corrective

2:22:54action. We're doing more training and

2:22:56more monitoring.

2:22:58>> So the the issue you feel it was a

2:23:00staffing issue?

2:23:01>> Yes.

2:23:03>> One note um on the Housing Choice

2:23:05Voucher Program is that there's

2:23:09at one point in time, as I mentioned,

2:23:11there was a significant reduction in

2:23:13staff in the department. Actually, not a

2:23:15reduction, but the fact that there were

2:23:16a lot of people that resigned or left

2:23:18over time. And as we replace additional

2:23:20staff or bring in new staff members, we

2:23:22have to train them on a 700-page

2:23:25document to make sure that they

2:23:26understand how to operate the program.

2:23:28And in some cases, there are those

2:23:30instances where um we have to do

2:23:32additional training even though we coach

2:23:34through how to do these processes. It's

2:23:36about staying on top of how those

2:23:37processes work and making sure that we

2:23:40continue that monitoring that to give

2:23:41additional training as needed.

2:23:44>> Okay.

2:23:46Thank you, Ms. Crowley. Um

2:23:48onto collection rates, you skimmed over

2:23:49this slide, but

2:23:51why did you use information about lease

2:23:52enforcement from September of 2025?

2:23:55>> I do apologize. I was actually using

2:23:57slides that I had available You said,

2:23:59"Why didn't I?"

2:24:00>> Did you? Yeah. That's over a year old,

2:24:02yeah.

2:24:03>> Oh, this was because I was using slides

2:24:05that um

2:24:06that referenced the top 125 households

2:24:09that owe a balance. And so, that

2:24:11information that was in that particular

2:24:13slide was showing 125 households through

2:24:17time. And so, that top 125 households,

2:24:20we took a snapshot in September 2025,

2:24:22but the data in that report is as of

2:24:24this year.

2:24:27>> So

2:24:27>> So, initially, these were the top 125

2:24:30households as of September 2025.

2:24:34And what we did was we

2:24:36followed those households or looked at

2:24:38those households to to look at what was

2:24:40what the status of those accounts were

2:24:42over time. And so, we've been monitoring

2:24:44that as a sample of households that owe

2:24:46that rent.

2:24:47>> And can you talk about the outcome of

2:24:48that?

2:24:49>> Sure.

2:24:52And I do apologize if it seemed that I

2:24:53glazed over it. I was trying to be

2:24:55respectful.

2:24:55>> have very much time, yeah.

2:25:00>> So, I do have it in the slide deck, but

2:25:02what I'll do is actually go over the

2:25:04most recent report as of I want to say

2:25:06was it yesterday or the day before

2:25:08yesterday? Oh, it was yesterday.

2:25:10So, the most recent report for those top

2:25:12125 households is that 33% are illegal,

2:25:1527% are under a notice that hasn't

2:25:17matured yet, and 40% of those cases have

2:25:18been resolved.

2:25:19>> I'm sorry, can I interrupt you for 1

2:25:21second? This is not my time, so I'm not

2:25:22going to have her while she's answering

2:25:24it hasn't counted against anyone else's

2:25:25time.

2:25:26Please continue.

2:25:27>> Yes, ma'am. So, legal, again, 33% are in

2:25:30legal status, 27% are under a notice,

2:25:33and 40% of those cases have been

2:25:35resolved.

2:25:36>> [clears throat]

2:25:37>> Okay. Um

2:25:40how many work orders do you have

2:25:41currently outstanding?

2:25:43>> Sure.

2:25:45For work orders,

2:25:47I'm going to use report information as

2:25:49of this week.

2:25:56Or based on the I'm sorry, the report as

2:25:58of this week. Currently outstanding

2:26:01where we stand Oh, sorry.

2:26:11On the resident generated work order

2:26:13side, we do have 3,000 work orders open.

2:26:20The majority of those work orders

2:26:22actually do belong to one portfolio.

2:26:25Um nearly a little over 2,000 of those

2:26:27work orders are actually in a portfolio

2:26:29where we have not had a manager since

2:26:31the earlier part of this year.

2:26:33And so that's specifically um for

2:26:35Cornwallis that has that large number of

2:26:37work orders.

2:26:42I'm sorry, and that was a note from Mr.

2:26:43Buchanan, um our

2:26:45um deputy operating officer who's over

2:26:47all of our property management. And what

2:26:49he has stated is that the bulk of those

2:26:51work orders are from inspection work

2:26:53orders that we generate.

2:26:55>> And how many of them are emer- or what

2:26:57did Do we have a current average time

2:26:59for repairs on emergency work orders?

2:27:01>> Yes, currently we're sitting around 17

2:27:03days in some cases for emergency work

2:27:05orders based on the reports that you

2:27:06might be referencing. However, we did

2:27:09discuss this yesterday and actually

2:27:10amongst our board that the data is not

2:27:13always accurate on that data. Um we're

2:27:16taking it as a raw number. And what that

2:27:18what is contributing to that issue is

2:27:20that what we have set up right now is a

2:27:22work order number or work order line

2:27:24that goes to a third party. That third

2:27:26party is in place to make sure that our

2:27:28households get all of their work orders

2:27:30entered into a system and documented.

2:27:33However, that third party from From to

2:27:35time will document anything as an

2:27:37emergency work order. It could be Hey, I

2:27:39like I would like to get this wall

2:27:42painted or perhaps it could be that

2:27:45something that is not an emergency work

2:27:47order will be classified very easily as

2:27:49an emergency work order because of that

2:27:52continued um discussion that we're

2:27:53having with our outside third party. In

2:27:55addition to that, what we're also

2:27:57noticing is that there is a significant

2:27:59number of duplicated work orders. And

2:28:02so, even when we report out these

2:28:03numbers from time to time that partner

2:28:06may not check the system to see if

2:28:08someone had already reported something

2:28:09and just enter it again.

2:28:12>> So, is it your contention that there's

2:28:13not that many emergency work orders?

2:28:16>> Yes, that's based on the data that we

2:28:18have to go back regularly and correct

2:28:20that for our third party.

2:28:22>> Okay. Well, we're still way over the

2:28:23federal requirement of 24 hours. What

2:28:26are y'all doing to get closer to that

2:28:28response time?

2:28:29And I've got a few more questions, won't

2:28:31be but probably

2:28:33>> We'll catch you on a second round. Not

2:28:34this one.

2:28:35You can answer.

2:28:38>> And so, what we have experienced is that

2:28:40we've brought in a new maintenance

2:28:42operations manager that's dedicated to

2:28:44overseeing all of our maintenance

2:28:45operations and strictly focusing on all

2:28:48of our work orders,

2:28:50um as well as the deployment of our

2:28:51maintenance staff.

2:28:53Um and so, that is the main thing is

2:28:55making sure there's an additional focus

2:28:57and also hiring staff. Sometimes what

2:28:59may contribute to that emergency work

2:29:01order going beyond 24 hours, if that is

2:29:04the case, because I can't necessarily

2:29:06say that that is always the case, but if

2:29:07that does happen, um it is usually

2:29:10because it is a staffing issue and we

2:29:11just have to get someone deployed.

2:29:13>> Mhm.

2:29:13>> And so, that but as far as I know, we

2:29:16typically do resolve 24-hour emergencies

2:29:18within 24 hours.

2:29:21>> Thank you.

2:29:22Mayor Pro Tem.

2:29:23>> Thank you. So, thank you so much for

2:29:25being here with us and thank you for the

2:29:26very, very thorough uh presentation and

2:29:29all the data and um I have not met with

2:29:31you, but I over the years have met with

2:29:33your predecessors many times.

2:29:35Um, I want to thank both Council Member

2:29:37Reese and former Mayor Pro Tem Johnson

2:29:40for their um

2:29:42service on on your board. It is not an

2:29:44easy board, and both both members have

2:29:47dedicated a lot of time in getting into

2:29:49the weeds of a very complex issue.

2:29:51Um

2:29:53I've seen the ebbs and flows of DHA over

2:29:56many years. I know the staffing issues

2:29:58that y'all have had. I know that you are

2:30:00repairing or trying to repair um a

2:30:03pretty damaged ship in a lot of ways

2:30:05with not the resources that you need

2:30:07from an entity that doesn't want to give

2:30:09it to you. Um, while I don't

2:30:11I don't love RAD conversions, right? We

2:30:13all know. I'm glad that the land is

2:30:15being retained. It was a general topic

2:30:17of conversation when the bond came up.

2:30:19You know, is this the best for you know,

2:30:21way to do this? How do we do this? What

2:30:23are our real choices?

2:30:25Um, I will say that

2:30:27uh our approach to housing changes over

2:30:30time, and right now we are not in a

2:30:32particularly um forgiving time

2:30:35as a country

2:30:37towards poverty, towards anything. Um,

2:30:39but that can change.

2:30:41And so, I'm glad that we will have the

2:30:42opportunity in the future to potentially

2:30:44change the way we are doing it even if

2:30:47we don't love it right now.

2:30:49Um, I think that this whole exercise

2:30:52while important

2:30:53um you know, the many of us rant and

2:30:56rave a lot about systemic large systems.

2:31:00Um,

2:31:01the the the failures of capitalism, the

2:31:03failures of you know, how we tax in this

2:31:06country. And yet, we do not offer the

2:31:07grace and empathy that we need

2:31:10uh with that system that we have to

2:31:12tackle every day, which is our housing

2:31:14authority. It is an extremely

2:31:15frustrating um place to be in as an

2:31:18individual council member when you are

2:31:19at a sitting and a lever of power that

2:31:22you have to face residents all the time,

2:31:24but you don't actually to the budget or

2:31:25the decision-making to make their lives

2:31:27actually better.

2:31:29And so, it's hard. It's a very hard

2:31:31place to sit and I can imagine for you

2:31:33and your staff, it's also a very hard

2:31:35place to sit. That does not mean that

2:31:36DHA is perfect. That does not mean that

2:31:38every rent letter

2:31:41interaction with the resident went as it

2:31:42was supposed to or should have.

2:31:45But, at the end of the day, thousands

2:31:47and thousands of Durham residents are

2:31:48housed in your units and now are moving

2:31:51into

2:31:52impeccably nice units.

2:31:55High-quality units. Units that do not

2:31:58look different than the fancy thing down

2:32:00the street that people are paying or

2:32:02even in their own building paying

2:32:04a gazillion dollars more per per month.

2:32:07And that is a win and that should be

2:32:09celebrated.

2:32:11And so, I will celebrate that every day

2:32:13because for me, Durham residents said

2:32:15yes to that. They said yes to still the

2:32:17largest affordable housing bond in North

2:32:19Carolina history 6 years after the fact.

2:32:23And that's why I like serving this

2:32:24community and it's why I will always say

2:32:26bet on Durham because we do try and

2:32:28stand up for each other even in

2:32:30everything that's flawed and f'd up in

2:32:32this country.

2:32:34Um

2:32:35so, I I know that we have a lot of work

2:32:37to do still. I have a lot of questions

2:32:39around design, especially when I think

2:32:41about our senior senior dedicated

2:32:43housing. Are we thinking about zero

2:32:45entry showers? How are we going to think

2:32:48about the shifts for folks who

2:32:51were used to their door facing outside

2:32:53and now they're on a shared hallway,

2:32:55right? That's a really different lived

2:32:57experience for residents and I will

2:32:59follow up directly

2:33:00uh to not use up so much of our time

2:33:02today with those types of questions

2:33:05because I do have a lot of questions

2:33:06around that experience and those design

2:33:09uh issues.

2:33:10It is it's going to be challenging for

2:33:12somebody who maybe is used to uh

2:33:15a Cornwallis where you weren't sharing a

2:33:16shared hallway to move into a shared

2:33:18hallway and what does that mean? How

2:33:19does that interaction work? And how do

2:33:21we set up those residents for success?

2:33:23And by default, how do we set up your

2:33:24staff for success? So, the tension

2:33:27between your staff and our residents is

2:33:29not always hard. It can be a more

2:33:32productive, caring,

2:33:34um, interaction. And uh, that that's a

2:33:38lot of

2:33:39very careful, methodical work. And I

2:33:41know we're in it, and it's not going to

2:33:43get easier,

2:33:44even though I wish it would. Uh, I look

2:33:46forward to Director Vinis's, um, housing

2:33:49plan later this fall, which will take

2:33:52help us tackle the big question on how

2:33:54do we help figure out McDougall Terrace,

2:33:57Oxford Manor, and the other ones that

2:33:58Cornwallis that are large and are going

2:34:01to need a lot of support. And how do we

2:34:02do [clears throat] that in a lot of, uh,

2:34:04a much more fiscally restrained

2:34:05environment than we had, quite frankly,

2:34:07in 2019 as a city. Um, those are the big

2:34:09questions. That's actually what I look

2:34:11forward to tackling from a public policy

2:34:13standpoint. Um,

2:34:16and again,

2:34:18are we perfect? No, but we should offer

2:34:20grace and empathy for something that is

2:34:21extremely hard to do. And that includes

2:34:24our tenants, right? That includes our

2:34:25residents. Thank you.

2:34:31>> Thank you.

2:34:32>> Thank you.

2:34:33All right. Um,

2:34:36this conversation is it's a little

2:34:37triggering.

2:34:40Uh, maybe it's because I've been

2:34:42communicating with you all so much over

2:34:44the last 3 weeks, uh, trying to um,

2:34:48get the best outcome for our residents.

2:34:50So, let me start off by saying this.

2:34:53I appreciate the work that you all are

2:34:56doing, because I see what the federal

2:34:58government's positioning has done to

2:35:00you,

2:35:01uh, as an organization.

2:35:03And, uh, let me ask this question real

2:35:05quick. How many housing authorities did

2:35:07a, uh, uh, froze payments during the

2:35:10pandemic that you know of?

2:35:12Was that like a common trend across the

2:35:14country?

2:35:15>> It is not a common trend. Um however,

2:35:18housing authorities were impacted by

2:35:19moratoriums, but it's not a common trend

2:35:22that I'm seeing locally. I can answer

2:35:24locally um that they froze those

2:35:26payments.

2:35:27>> Got you. During the pandemic?

2:35:28>> During the pandemic, no sir.

2:35:30>> So, uh

2:35:30>> Outside of moratorium, outside of being

2:35:32able to evict um for a morat- during the

2:35:35moratorium.

2:35:36>> Okay.

2:35:37Um

2:35:39I often say this is a failed the federal

2:35:42government, you know, this is a failed

2:35:43policy because of the failed support uh

2:35:46to the agencies.

2:35:48I want to be very clear. Today we're in

2:35:51City Hall. We're not in a courtroom, so

2:35:52I'm not going to beat you up because of

2:35:54what they're doing.

2:35:55I'm going to be your partner, and I'm

2:35:57going to continue to celebrate the work

2:35:59that is done being done because I've

2:36:00talked to many of your residents, and

2:36:03I've talked to residents who have

2:36:05moved to other places.

2:36:07I appreciate the vision that we're not

2:36:09just putting all of one income into one

2:36:12concentrated area, and then asking the

2:36:14question of why are we getting the

2:36:15outcome we have?

2:36:17But it's a little triggering because

2:36:18before I got here today, I was a little

2:36:20late because there's a line cook

2:36:23and two teachers that are sleeping in

2:36:25their freaking car.

2:36:28Sleeping in their car.

2:36:31And you have an entire organization

2:36:33where the rent is $250

2:36:36in 2026.

2:36:38We don't have enough capacity for it.

2:36:41We don't have enough capacity for people

2:36:42who are in hardship.

2:36:45And you have this disadvantage

2:36:48from the federal government. We're

2:36:50trying to do what we can on the local

2:36:51level.

2:36:52Trying.

2:36:54And yet

2:36:56this is what it's coming out to be

2:36:57today. So, I I'm going to continue as

2:37:00much as I can to support the work that I

2:37:02see that's that that's that's moving

2:37:04forward positively.

2:37:06We're going to continue to cut the

2:37:07ribbons. We're going to keep to continue

2:37:08to put the shovels in the ground,

2:37:10and make sure we house more people in

2:37:12better conditions than where they are.

2:37:14>> Yes, sir.

2:37:15>> That's just the reality. That is the

2:37:16reality that I see with the organization

2:37:18of DHA and the development arm.

2:37:20It's not perfect It's not perfect.

2:37:23I guess who else is not?

2:37:25We aren't.

2:37:26We are not perfect. There are things

2:37:29that the city screws up on and it's a

2:37:30hell of a lot that the council screws up

2:37:32on.

2:37:34But,

2:37:36we keep moving forward and I want to

2:37:38celebrate that work.

2:37:40So, I appreciate you coming here to give

2:37:42us

2:37:43all of this information. I appreciate

2:37:45the partnership we're going to keep

2:37:46going forward with. Um but

2:37:49we're housing people in better

2:37:50conditions than they've ever had

2:37:53in the last I don't know how many

2:37:54decades.

2:37:56I mean, think about it. It's It's

2:37:57underfunded.

2:37:59It's dilapidated.

2:38:01The one thing we hear the common thing

2:38:03we hear all the time is humans should

2:38:05not be living in this.

2:38:08And so, moving people into better

2:38:09conditions, what I can offer you is to

2:38:11help you do better at what you're doing

2:38:13rather than rather than tearing it down.

2:38:16And so, you're going to There There are

2:38:18seven of us on this council. You're

2:38:19going to hear seven probably different

2:38:21perspectives and I respect all.

2:38:23But, I I think that the best thing for

2:38:26all of us is to make sure that we're

2:38:27building the partnership.

2:38:29And in Durham, I think we give a damn a

2:38:31lot more than a lot of a lot of other

2:38:32people cuz we have we have uh

2:38:35we work with Legal Aid. Legal Aid

2:38:37protects the interests of the residents.

2:38:39You all help the residents. So, when I

2:38:40hear humanity, which I heard earlier, I

2:38:42can't remember which one of my

2:38:43colleagues said it,

2:38:44I think this is it, man. I think this is

2:38:46humanity.

2:38:48When people are experiencing hardship

2:38:51and we're actually meeting them where

2:38:53they are. It's $250 and if you can't pay

2:38:55that, you can pay a minimum $50. And if

2:38:57you can't pay that, it is zero in 2026

2:39:01and I have a two I have two teachers

2:39:04and a line cook

2:39:06that's trying to get a hotel room.

2:39:11So, please build more

2:39:13and I hope that we can help fund you

2:39:14building more

2:39:16because a teacher should not be sleeping

2:39:18in their car, one of them with a child.

2:39:21That's the work we don't see behind the

2:39:22scenes.

2:39:25>> Yes, sir.

2:39:26>> So, colleagues, we have another round.

2:39:28Um I we can finish this and take a break

2:39:31or we can just keep going.

2:39:33Um

2:39:35It's up to you guys.

2:39:36Would you all Would you like to take a

2:39:37break or would you like to finish this

2:39:38up?

2:39:39All right.

2:39:42Finish it up?

2:39:43Take a break?

2:39:45>> When you say another round, you mean

2:39:46just another round?

2:39:46>> All right. Let me Let me ask this. Are

2:39:48there any more comments that need to be

2:39:50made?

2:39:51Cuz I know she had

2:39:53All right.

2:39:56Yeah, we have two.

2:39:58Yeah, let's take a break.

2:40:01>> Is there a second round on this?

2:42:59>> Mhm.

2:48:44>> Mhm.

2:49:32>> My mic on?

2:49:33>> Yeah, there we go.

2:49:34>> Uh a couple follow-up questions. Um the

2:49:37first one that I have is uh regarding

2:49:40policies around tenant democracy. So,

2:49:43this pol- this um body actually just

2:49:45recently adopted new policy direction

2:49:48that um future projects that receive

2:49:51city funding should attempt to build in

2:49:53tenant democracy. Um so, is that

2:49:56something that that you can speak to a

2:49:57little bit?

2:49:58>> Oh, so that's I did see that um in the

2:50:01in the information around some of the

2:50:02city ordinances and I was excited to see

2:50:04that because that's actually something

2:50:06that's retained with our RAD

2:50:07conversions. With the Rental Assistance

2:50:09Demonstration Program, our residents

2:50:11retain the right to organize and the

2:50:13councils that existed can continue to

2:50:15operate as resident councils in those

2:50:17communities. And if for any reasons

2:50:19there's issues with them being able to

2:50:21organize, we certainly step in and make

2:50:23sure to reinforce that they have that

2:50:25right.

2:50:27>> Okay, thank you for that. And then um

2:50:29the next question that I had was for the

2:50:33RAD conversions, there's a market rate

2:50:35element.

2:50:36Um is there have there been

2:50:37conversations? Is there a way to build

2:50:40in or is there something already built

2:50:42in to limiting essentially rent

2:50:44stabilization not as an ordinance but

2:50:47through an through the agreement and the

2:50:49ownership of the DHA to ensure that

2:50:54rents are not going up substantially on

2:50:57those properties and that there's a

2:50:58limitation to the

2:51:00to the potential increase in in rents

2:51:02from year to year.

2:51:04>> So, I'll start with the rent

2:51:05stabilization question and what we can

2:51:07do in the very beginning of a

2:51:08transaction.

2:51:10On all of our transactions, we do

2:51:11implement those restrictions based on

2:51:14our land lease instruments and so that's

2:51:17generally written in

2:51:19and for example in our tribute rising

2:51:21transaction, we have those instruments

2:51:24in place or prepared to be in place to

2:51:26make sure that the affordability remains

2:51:29for persons at different income levels.

2:51:30And in addition to that, I

2:51:33believe the second part of your question

2:51:34was around their adjustments each year.

2:51:37When we convert under the rental

2:51:39assistance demonstration program,

2:51:41they're required to do their rent

2:51:43increases based on an adjustment factor.

2:51:46We call it the OCAF factor, but that is

2:51:48built into their housing assistance

2:51:50payment contracts. That is a part of the

2:51:51consideration as well

2:51:53and so it has to follow a certain

2:51:55methodology to make sure that that's

2:51:56reasonable. I'll also yield to Mr. Snell

2:52:00in case he has something to add to that

2:52:03unless or

2:52:04did you have anything else?

2:52:05>> No, I I don't [laughter] really have you

2:52:06did a great job on the

2:52:08>> With respect to the affordability

2:52:11matter, there is a affordability rent

2:52:14there's affordability

2:52:16restrictive covenant that are on these

2:52:19sites that are for the city requires 30

2:52:22years. So, that means that that site

2:52:24with the city's funding that they have

2:52:26for 30 years that property has to remain

2:52:29affordable. Now, with one of the things

2:52:32we were looking at with one of our

2:52:34upcoming projects is we have the

2:52:37opportunity to go out to a 99-year

2:52:39restrictive covenant on that on that

2:52:42site, which we were exploring also, but

2:52:44that's coterminous with the actual

2:52:47long-term lease there. So, there is a

2:52:49minimum requirement that the the site

2:52:52will remain affordable for a minimum

2:52:54period of years.

2:52:58>> And then to the market-rate units, there

2:53:01is a way

2:53:03to limit

2:53:05increases from year to year?

2:53:07>> Actually, let me correct my response

2:53:08related to market-rate units. So, for

2:53:10the market-rate units, the the

2:53:12restrictions around that is related to

2:53:14what's a reasonable rent.

2:53:16Um so, if where that comes into play for

2:53:19the housing authority side is if there

2:53:20is a household in there with a

2:53:22tenant-based voucher,

2:53:24um we have to do an analysis of that

2:53:26rent that they're charging based on the

2:53:27market to make sure that it's

2:53:29reasonable. Um however, for the

2:53:31market-rate units in general, that is

2:53:33something that um those those owners

2:53:35actually do have the ability to set.

2:53:38I do think it's correct.

2:53:39>> Okay. Okay.

2:53:40Maybe something to to consider in in

2:53:43future projects.

2:53:45Um and then just to reaffirm something

2:53:47that you already said, tenants in RAD

2:53:50conversions have the right to organize

2:53:52that is protected.

2:53:53>> Absolutely. It is protected um by

2:53:56federal law, actually. Yes, sir.

2:53:59>> You're right.

2:53:59>> Thank you.

2:54:02>> Anything?

2:54:03Go ahead.

2:54:05>> Uh just briefly, I want to thank you and

2:54:07your staff again for being here today

2:54:09for what you presented to us to make

2:54:10sure we have all the information um that

2:54:13that you're able to offer today. I also

2:54:15appreciate you spending so much time

2:54:16with me personally, uh and I think that

2:54:18is really helpful for you know, for all

2:54:20of us as council members to to increase

2:54:23uh our own education, my own um

2:54:25knowledge of of DHA, your properties, um

2:54:29you know, the people uh who you're

2:54:31attempting to serve. Uh you know, I

2:54:32think as my colleague Council member

2:54:33Reese was saying, we know it's a really

2:54:35difficult situation where both you face

2:54:38real systemic barriers to be able to

2:54:40provide all the services you want to be

2:54:42able to provide. And at the same time,

2:54:44you want to honor, you know, tenants who

2:54:47who speak up to you, to us, to to others

2:54:51uh what can feel like really untenable

2:54:53situations uh for them.

2:54:55You know, as we work toward some of

2:54:56these medium and long-term solutions,

2:54:58but you have folks who have lived in

2:54:59difficult circumstances for a long time.

2:55:01And so, I know that that's a really

2:55:02difficult tension. And so, I appreciate

2:55:04the work that you're trying to do. I

2:55:06appreciate acknowledging shortcomings.

2:55:08You know, I I think as the mayor said,

2:55:09we have to acknowledge all of our

2:55:11shortcomings and then do our best to be

2:55:12responsive, accountable, uh and address

2:55:15where there there are deficiencies. So,

2:55:16I appreciate you you being here today

2:55:18sharing and continuing to do this uh

2:55:20important work. I also, like Mayor Pro

2:55:22Tem said, proud of Durham coming

2:55:24together and contributing toward this

2:55:25work.

2:55:26Um you know, otherwise, we wouldn't be

2:55:28able to be where we are today without

2:55:30that sort of

2:55:31that sort of partnership.

2:55:33Um and the last thing I just want to

2:55:34appreciate your your mentioning of the

2:55:36work the arts and culture staff is is

2:55:37doing uh in response to a resident

2:55:40request. Um you know, residents who felt

2:55:42like

2:55:43you know, they don't know when they're

2:55:45going to be getting out.

2:55:47Um it can be a very depressing situation

2:55:50when you see a lot of the homes around

2:55:51you boarded up. Uh and their request was

2:55:54for their kids to be able to see

2:55:55something just a little bit more

2:55:56beautiful on a day-to-day basis.

2:55:58Uh and so, I appreciate staff's

2:55:59responsiveness to that as well as

2:56:01responsiveness to other neighborhoods.

2:56:03You know, they're not being boarded up

2:56:04and shut down who ask for art uh to be

2:56:07able to provide that. So, thanks for

2:56:08mentioning that today as well.

2:56:11>> Thank you for sending them our way.

2:56:13Thank you.

2:56:15>> All right. Thank you, uh Ms. Brown. We

2:56:17go way back. I had met you when you

2:56:18first got to I was with Durham CAN and I

2:56:20was a part of Downtown Durham

2:56:21Development Plan. So, when it was part

2:56:23of Durham CAN and the Grant Street

2:56:24ladies, so we I appreciate you for your

2:56:27grace today.

2:56:28Um as I know it's some tough

2:56:30conversations that have happened, but

2:56:31you've handled everything gracefully, so

2:56:32I do appreciate cuz it couldn't have

2:56:33been me. No, I'm playing. But I

2:56:34appreciate all your grace

2:56:36um in navigating this. And also just

2:56:38want to hear more since uh McDougald's

2:56:40in Ward 2, which is my ward, more about

2:56:43some of the um if you we could just chat

2:56:45a little bit more about some of the the

2:56:46plans for arts. I do have concerns

2:56:48concerns about that. Particularly who's

2:56:49going to pay for that? Right? Um and

2:56:51just how do we make sure it's an

2:56:52inclusive like not a one-off like one

2:56:54resident, but how do we make sure that

2:56:55we capture the voice of all the

2:56:56community? I also want to thank DHA

2:56:58staff. Particularly um you guys work

2:57:00really hard and there's a lot of room We

2:57:02all have room for growth. No one's

2:57:03perfect, and so there's never going to

2:57:05be that situation, but I did get a

2:57:06chance to see a lot of hard work that

2:57:08went out on National Night Out. And Mr.

2:57:10Green and how he's worked with um the

2:57:12Mayor's Council for Women to actually

2:57:13get the clothing closet up at um Grady.

2:57:16I think it's one of McDougald Terrace.

2:57:17So there's a lot of great work

2:57:18happening, but if you're not present in

2:57:19community or you choose to have one

2:57:21angle, you're not going to see it. And

2:57:23so I think that's where I really just

2:57:24want to make sure we just kind of give

2:57:26grace in those areas. I do have a

2:57:27question though. Um I think what I've

2:57:29heard from some folks is that people

2:57:31I don't want to say it's um the running

2:57:33issue of public safety and people feel

2:57:35it's got to be a little bit territorial.

2:57:37And so when folks move from different

2:57:39communities to others, some folks may um

2:57:41form community in unsavory ways. And so

2:57:45I just want to know how have you all

2:57:46considered that as you can um do some of

2:57:48the um

2:57:50transitions for folks in acknowledging

2:57:52that people have started to do a little

2:57:54bit things that are like centered in

2:57:55violence as they move to different

2:57:56communities.

2:57:57>> Yeah, that's a very challenging question

2:57:59and the best way that I can answer that

2:58:00is that we have to partner um with our

2:58:02law at least our law enforcement partner

2:58:04agencies um to do this work.

2:58:06Um it's not easy and our primary focus

2:58:09is on the housing to make sure that

2:58:11folks are in standard housing and that

2:58:12is something that they can um actually

2:58:15sustain and afford. Um but where we need

2:58:18the experts in the room is with our law

2:58:19enforcement partners around how to

2:58:21navigate that while striking a balance

2:58:23with our obligation to give families

2:58:24into standard housing that they can

2:58:26sustain in.

2:58:28>> Thank you so much.

2:58:29>> And thank you for elevating.

2:58:31>> [clears throat]

2:58:33>> Uh just real quick to your comment.

2:58:36When the city had closed, I don't think

2:58:38it was for COVID, I think it was for

2:58:40protest or something.

2:58:42Um during George Floyd time, we had

2:58:44boarded up a bunch of walls and

2:58:47local artists went out and painted and

2:58:50made murals, so the city became an art

2:58:52display.

2:58:53I would love to see our art students at

2:58:56Durham public schools maybe take part in

2:58:57that as well.

2:58:58>> That's so cool.

2:59:00>> Um Council um Council member Cook.

2:59:13>> Um okay, so we were talking about work

2:59:14orders. Um and so I want to go back to

2:59:17that

2:59:18um

2:59:19and you were talking about addressing

2:59:21them more quickly, especially on the

2:59:23emergency ones. Do you have a

2:59:25methodology since you can't determine if

2:59:27these are actually emergencies? Do you

2:59:28have a methodology for determining if

2:59:30they are emergency repairs?

2:59:32>> Absolutely. We can determine if it's an

2:59:34emergency. We do have a a process We

2:59:36have a description of what is considered

2:59:38an emergency and it's usually something

2:59:40that's an immediately immediate threat

2:59:41to

2:59:43um the the health and safety of the

2:59:44household.

2:59:46Um we do have a methodology to make that

2:59:47determination.

2:59:48>> You said earlier that there was a third

2:59:50party that was doing it and they were

2:59:51misdiagnosing, so I'm just wondering how

2:59:53do we

2:59:53>> We provided it to that third party and

2:59:55it perhaps may be a third like a

2:59:57training issue on Aryan, but we are

2:59:58looking to making some changes in the

3:00:00future where we're using additional

3:00:02technology to help with the

3:00:03classification of those the proper

3:00:05classification of those work orders.

3:00:07>> Um so as to city code violations

3:00:10specifically, how come the Durham

3:00:12Housing Authority isn't sending folks to

3:00:14the Housing Appeals Board about these

3:00:17violations anymore?

3:00:19>> I don't know the Where do we need to

3:00:21send people? I don't understand the

3:00:23question. I'm sorry.

3:00:24>> Well, y'all used to appear for the

3:00:25Housing Appeals Board. This is where we

3:00:27deal with the city code violations, but

3:00:29>> we're invited, we most certainly will

3:00:30show up. I'm not aware of instances

3:00:32where we didn't

3:00:33attend, but I can certainly look into

3:00:34that. My expectation is that we do

3:00:37attend those sessions to provide

3:00:38updates.

3:00:39Because we do maintain a monthly meeting

3:00:41with the the Housing and Neighbors

3:00:43Neighborhood Services team that does the

3:00:45violation work and give updates on those

3:00:47violations. I imagine it might be

3:00:49related to those updates that we provide

3:00:51during those meetings, but I'll get with

3:00:52my team internally to get a better

3:00:54update on that.

3:00:54>> Okay, yeah. We have an appeals board

3:00:55that's a quasi-judicial board and DHA

3:00:57hasn't been sending a representative as

3:00:59of late for the issues that are or the

3:01:01cases that are open there.

3:01:02>> Okay.

3:01:02>> Um and there are 59 cases open. We have

3:01:07my my account currently is that there's

3:01:09259 open violations at DHA properties.

3:01:13Many of those violations are under the

3:01:16Durham Housing Code 10-241 that was was

3:01:19passed last October, which states that

3:01:21a landlord can't collect rent for those

3:01:24inhabitable conditions. Do you have a

3:01:25plan to address those more quickly? Are

3:01:27they set aside for faster repairs?

3:01:32>> So, I I have to see those in order to be

3:01:34able to give you the best response, but

3:01:35anytime we get a code violation, it is

3:01:37something that we track and report on in

3:01:39those monthly meetings

3:01:41with the code enforcement team. And so,

3:01:43I do imagine that that could be a very

3:01:44helpful resource

3:01:46in terms of where those things lie, but

3:01:48we do track them and we we stay on top

3:01:51of our code violations in order to get

3:01:52them resolved. There are some

3:01:53circumstances that might be pointed out

3:01:55at our vacant properties or our vacant

3:01:58land.

3:01:59And those are issues that we typically

3:02:02will resolve as soon as we can get the

3:02:04properties cleaned up. And

3:02:07the only real way to finally resolve it

3:02:10completely is to build something on it

3:02:11or to continue to work that we're doing.

3:02:13>> Yeah, this is separate from the AD

3:02:15violations that are constituting

3:02:17demolition and at the unoccupied lands.

3:02:19These are These are ones

3:02:21I don't know if all of them are but they

3:02:22at some point were called in by someone

3:02:24who was living in those in those places.

3:02:26>> Okay, we certainly can take a look at

3:02:27those to see if there's something going

3:02:29on in terms of the status and the

3:02:30resolution.

3:02:31>> Yes, ma'am.

3:02:32>> Yeah, I mean and I want to ask one more

3:02:33question and then I'm going to go back

3:02:34to that. Can you talk about the

3:02:36transition to the exclusively online

3:02:38system and how you're dealing with folks

3:02:39who are inherently

3:02:42um

3:02:43>> What exclusively online system? I'm

3:02:45sorry.

3:02:45>> Um there's been several places that have

3:02:47been told that they are now going to be

3:02:49forced to pay their rent online, that

3:02:51they're going to be at receipts online.

3:02:52So no, that's not happening?

3:02:53>> No, ma'am. What we What we did was we

3:02:55sent out communication to all of our

3:02:56community members letting them know that

3:02:58we were expanding their rent payment

3:02:59options. So our residents can still pay

3:03:02the same way that they've always paid.

3:03:04Um but we've just added additional

3:03:05online options.

3:03:07>> And will they be able to get bills on

3:03:08paper if they need them?

3:03:10>> Would they be able to get the

3:03:12>> their bills?

3:03:13>> On paper? Yes, their rent statements?

3:03:15Yes, ma'am. We mail them every month.

3:03:17>> And that's no no plan to change that.

3:03:20>> As it stands right now, those rent

3:03:21statements will continue to go out in

3:03:22paper right now but in the future

3:03:25there's a chance that households can

3:03:26access them online if they choose to.

3:03:29>> Okay, my time's continuing to tick. Um

3:03:36Okay. Uh

3:03:38All right, I'm just going to talk about

3:03:39this really quickly for a minute. So

3:03:41we've got housing quality standard score

3:03:43of zero in every in every report from

3:03:472022 through 2025.

3:03:49We've got SEMAP's report finding a

3:03:51failure to meet enforcement for

3:03:53life-threatening housing quality

3:03:54standards under CFR 249853.

3:03:58We've got 259 open code violations.

3:04:01I know that we're sitting up here

3:04:02talking about celebrating our wins and I

3:04:04don't want to take away from that, but I

3:04:05really want to think about the lived

3:04:07experiences of the folks that are in

3:04:08these places because you're you're

3:04:10saying that you can't designate

3:04:12necessarily or that you've got a third

3:04:13party that can't determine if something

3:04:15is a life-threatening um or severe

3:04:17habitability issue, and I've got seniors

3:04:18that are now going into their third year

3:04:20without heating at your properties, and

3:04:22y'all are aware. And so it's it's hard

3:04:25for me to hear this because I feel like

3:04:26we're just we're skimming over what

3:04:29folks are actually having to live

3:04:31through in these situations, and it is

3:04:33it's really really poor. And so I just

3:04:35want to I want to highlight that because

3:04:37people are they need help, and they're

3:04:39reaching out for help, and they're not

3:04:41receiving it. And um

3:04:43yeah, anyway.

3:04:45>> Council member, are people reaching out

3:04:46to you directly or city city hall?

3:04:50>> They're reaching out to me at city hall.

3:04:51They've reached out to the housing

3:04:53authority. I've seen and and we have um

3:04:56city code violations where we've gone in

3:04:58and designated some of these as failing

3:05:00code statuses, but we haven't done

3:05:01emergency repairs because they're at

3:05:03housing authority properties.

3:05:04>> sharing those reports?

3:05:05>> Sure.

3:05:06>> Thank you.

3:05:07And once I see those reports, I can work

3:05:10with you to make sure we they're

3:05:12properly addressed.

3:05:16>> Council member Rice, did you have your

3:05:17hand up my Okay. I just wanted to say I

3:05:19think it's helpful if that information

3:05:21is shared to all council members, number

3:05:23one. Number two,

3:05:25um

3:05:27I That's why I emphasized the historic

3:05:29nature of some of this. Some of these

3:05:31things go back. It is not So there's two

3:05:33things happening. We've seen several

3:05:35families get moved out, several folks

3:05:36moved out. It was also stated that

3:05:38people are also not wanting to move out

3:05:40in some cases because of discomfort,

3:05:42right? They're they don't know

3:05:44to Council member Rice's point, they

3:05:46don't know that new community. They're a

3:05:48little bit wary of moving, right? They

3:05:51have had not great circumstances in

3:05:54their living in their living situation

3:05:56already, and so maybe there's not a

3:05:57belief that it's going to be better.

3:05:58There's a whole bunch of psychology that

3:06:00is happening here,

3:06:02and

3:06:03I think we need to be very careful and

3:06:05honest about

3:06:07two things can happen be happening at

3:06:09the same time. Certain folks could be

3:06:11having not okay living situations, and

3:06:13the Durham Housing Authority can also be

3:06:15working diligently to improve long

3:06:18historic trends, and that is quite

3:06:20frankly what I believe. I believe both

3:06:22are true. We know that. I've been a

3:06:24council member for a long time. I have

3:06:26had people reach out to me because their

3:06:27sewer was backing up in their apartment

3:06:29at DHA property. This was 5 years ago.

3:06:32It was not getting handled. It was not

3:06:34responded to in an effective manner. And

3:06:36then it got handled because council

3:06:37members got involved. It's not because

3:06:39this isn't true. It's not because I

3:06:41don't believe that it is happening, but

3:06:43I also believe and have seen huge

3:06:46improvements. And part of it is around

3:06:47staffing. We know that there have there

3:06:49were several key parts of your team that

3:06:52went un-

3:06:53staffed for like 18 months. That's going

3:06:56to have a huge effect.

3:06:59A domino effect on what you're able to

3:07:01accomplish. And so, to right the ship of

3:07:05a large institution takes a long time.

3:07:09Is it fair to those residents? No.

3:07:13Do we have limited means? Yes.

3:07:15So, that is that is the tension point of

3:07:17sitting in the seat. This is the entire

3:07:20time I've been on council this has been

3:07:21a tension point.

3:07:23If I think back to 2018 and 2019 and

3:07:26where the Housing Authority was then to

3:07:28now, it is a fundamentally different

3:07:30place. Does that mean that there still

3:07:31needs to be improvement? Yes.

3:07:34But I think it is a missed opportunity

3:07:37to say that all is lost or that there

3:07:39hasn't been improvement or that we

3:07:41haven't moved hundreds of families into

3:07:43high-quality housing with fixed rent.

3:07:47And so, that's the macro, and that's the

3:07:49story we also need to tell. And that

3:07:51doesn't diminish or not say or not or

3:07:53not include the reality of many of our

3:07:56residents.

3:07:57And that's a hard thing to live in

3:07:59tension with.

3:08:01But that's the job we chose when we

3:08:02chose to run.

3:08:05>> Yeah, I think that those comments are

3:08:07exactly spot on. You know, I don't think

3:08:09anyone is pretending that we don't have

3:08:11challenges here.

3:08:12I don't think anyone is pretending that,

3:08:14you know, um

3:08:16>> [clears throat]

3:08:17>> that that you all are having challenges

3:08:20and and we don't either. I think what

3:08:22we're acknowledging is

3:08:24one, we don't want to govern on

3:08:25assumptions. We want to make sure we

3:08:27have the hard data. We want to make sure

3:08:28if there's a serious issue, then we want

3:08:30to know about it.

3:08:31And that's why I say Council member

3:08:32Cook, if you have someone is coming to

3:08:34you, share it with the rest of us. We

3:08:35can all get together and help maybe

3:08:37provide some direction or support to you

3:08:40all as an agency to get it there. I'm

3:08:42also not going to pretend the fact that

3:08:44that with the federal government

3:08:46historically and significantly

3:08:47underfunding you all and then you only

3:08:49are getting up to $250

3:08:52in rent from residents, you know, that I

3:08:55mean, where is the where else is the

3:08:56money going to come from?

3:08:58I mean, we did a $95 million housing

3:09:01bond.

3:09:02So so money came from that.

3:09:05Well, I

3:09:06it's not going to just appear on any

3:09:08We're not writing a You're not writing a

3:09:09blank check here. You don't have a blank

3:09:11check.

3:09:12So, I just want to

3:09:13I want to function in reality here.

3:09:16And that's why you don't hear me being

3:09:17overly hard on you guys. I'm I'm glad

3:09:19you're here today to give us a a status

3:09:21update.

3:09:22But I think you did a great job at

3:09:24providing all of the, you know, the the

3:09:26the the bigger picture here.

3:09:28You know, and so we've talked about

3:09:31boarded up properties and what we can do

3:09:32with them. We've talked about taking

3:09:34families out of these conditions and

3:09:36moving them into better situations.

3:09:37We've talked about the, you know, the

3:09:39rack conversions. We've talked about,

3:09:41you know, the development arm of DHA.

3:09:43We've talked about the status of the new

3:09:45properties. We've talked about the

3:09:46status of the old properties. We've

3:09:47talked about you know, um um

3:09:50the needs, you know, we talked about the

3:09:52uh the violations.

3:09:54And and I think that we have more

3:09:56information to give us more direction

3:09:58than not.

3:09:59You know, so it it gets a little

3:10:01frustrating when all we can do is just

3:10:03beat it down. And I I'm just

3:10:05I'm not going to do that. I'm going to

3:10:06work on finding solutions, you know, and

3:10:08and that's what I think we can do

3:10:10together.

3:10:11So, um

3:10:12I appreciate it.

3:10:16>> A week from today 10:00 ribbon cutting

3:10:18it at Momentum, right? So, another

3:10:20ribbon cutting from

3:10:21>> Well, that's a um a VIP tour in that

3:10:24particular instance. Yes, sir.

3:10:26>> Got 3 minutes.

3:10:27>> Yes.

3:10:27>> Yeah. Thank you. Looking forward to

3:10:28that.

3:10:29>> Yes.

3:10:30>> All right. So, that's all the comments

3:10:31from that round. If there any other

3:10:32comments, colleagues, just we have one

3:10:34just

3:10:35>> I just very quickly, I do want to thank

3:10:37Durham uh Cultural Affairs Board the

3:10:38conversation around um public art and

3:10:42not just at our housing properties that

3:10:45are in in need of repair or will be

3:10:47changing, but also new projects that

3:10:49that's come up as a as a desire of those

3:10:51communities. And so, I just wanted to

3:10:53lift up that board's

3:10:54um

3:10:56very eagerness to want to be in that in

3:10:58those conversations and in that space.

3:10:59That's all.

3:11:02>> Thank you. Um quick question. How many

3:11:04attorneys do you have on staff?

3:11:06>> Currently, we have one in-house

3:11:07attorney. Um we are looking to add an

3:11:10additional temporary attorney to help

3:11:12with our lease enforcement caseload. And

3:11:14we do have one um law firm Well, we have

3:11:16a law firm as our general counsel and

3:11:18actually a representative is present

3:11:20here today from the Banks Law Firm.

3:11:22>> All right. Thank you.

3:11:24I have one speaker um colleagues, that

3:11:28All right. I have one speaker uh Lillian

3:11:30Horns Downey.

3:11:34In person. No, virtual.

3:11:37Oh, are you here?

3:11:39Welcome. You have 3 minutes.

3:11:41>> Um first, my name is Lillian Hornsby

3:11:43Downing. I'm currently the interim co-

3:11:47I'm sorry.

3:11:47>> Pull it back down.

3:11:48Yeah, people are listening online. There

3:11:50you go, that's perfect.

3:11:51>> Thank you. Um, I'm currently the co- one

3:11:54of the interim co-directors of the

3:11:55Eviction Diversion Program that's funded

3:11:57by the city.

3:11:59Um, I personally oversee the program and

3:12:01team operations that identifies trends

3:12:04in our work. And my team regularly

3:12:06represents public housing tenants and we

3:12:09see honestly one recurring problem that

3:12:12we think is actually leading to most of

3:12:13the issues and that is inaccurate

3:12:16records and procedural failures that are

3:12:19constantly putting people's homes at

3:12:20risk. Um, federal laws provide public

3:12:23housing tenants with additional

3:12:25protections. One of those is the access

3:12:27to a review their tenant files before

3:12:31they are in trial. This year we've

3:12:33helped 36 tenants request their files.

3:12:3627 of those cases involved active

3:12:38litigation. DHA has since dismissed 25

3:12:41of those cases but two of them remain

3:12:43pending. Of those requests of those 36

3:12:46requests only 14 completed files have

3:12:48been received and an average 29 business

3:12:51day turnaround to get them. The

3:12:53remaining 32 requests are outstanding or

3:12:56incomplete and they have an average of

3:12:5883 business days since they've been

3:13:00pending. Our reviews of the files that

3:13:02we had have shown missing documents,

3:13:05incorrect recertifications,

3:13:07inconsistent ledgers and we've

3:13:09identified roughly 24,000 improperly

3:13:13charged rent. That number is sure to

3:13:15grow whenever we're able to review

3:13:17additional files.

3:13:19Tenants have also have the right to a

3:13:21grievance hearing before certain lease

3:13:23terminations. Since August of 2025 we've

3:13:26assisted 18 tenants with requesting and

3:13:28and having a

3:13:30a hearing.

3:13:31Um, 15 of those hearings are complete.

3:13:3314 of the terminations ultimately were

3:13:35rescinded and the one that wasn't

3:13:38continued to court where DHA later

3:13:40decided to voluntarily dismiss that

3:13:42case, which means 15 tenants stayed

3:13:45housed.

3:13:46Uh another frightening trend that we've

3:13:48seen is that tenants fleeing domestic

3:13:50violence situations who are in desperate

3:13:52needs of an emergency transfer,

3:13:55they find themselves sitting on wait

3:13:57lists for years at a time. The Violence

3:13:59Against Women Act provides emergency

3:14:02transfer protections, yet we're seeing

3:14:03tenants left waiting while other safety

3:14:05remains at risk.

3:14:07Now, our clients only represent a very

3:14:10small fraction of public housing

3:14:12tenants, but these outcomes raise

3:14:14serious concerns about tenant records,

3:14:17lease termination, and whether tenants

3:14:19can meaningfully access protections that

3:14:21they're entitled to.

3:14:22I've heard city leaders, including

3:14:24members of this council, ask how we can

3:14:26combat rising homelessness. I think a

3:14:28very necessary starting point is going

3:14:30to be ensuring that public housing does

3:14:33not push people out through inaccurate

3:14:35records, procedural failures, and

3:14:37barriers to essential protections.

3:14:40It's very easy to assume that

3:14:43tenants need to just remanage their

3:14:45household, but honestly that overlooks

3:14:48the actual problems that are present.

3:14:51>> Thank you so much. If you don't mind

3:14:52forwarding those comments as well, so we

3:14:54can make sure we get all of them.

3:14:55>> Absolutely.

3:14:56>> Yeah, thank you.

3:14:58Um

3:14:59and I and [clears throat] I think that's

3:15:00a great example of of what Durham does.

3:15:03Um

3:15:04we fund the plaintiff's standard

3:15:05defense, if we want to think of this as

3:15:06a courtroom. We are supporting nearly a

3:15:08million dollars to legal aid to make

3:15:10sure there's support there. We gave 1.5

3:15:12million to Durham Housing Authority to

3:15:14make sure you can get staffed up and get

3:15:16some operations in play. So, uh I think

3:15:19we have enough information shared today

3:15:20to get all the issues figured out. Uh

3:15:23and um

3:15:24hopefully our partnership will be

3:15:26defined about, you know, defined by how

3:15:28we're helping keep people housed, help

3:15:31get people housed, and that 4.5 million

3:15:34that we just put toward homeless

3:15:35reduction,

3:15:36and the strategies to keep people,

3:15:38you know, keep uh to make sure

3:15:40homelessness is rare and brief.

3:15:42I think we have a lot more going in the

3:15:44right direction than not. So.

3:15:48Those are all the uh matters for item

3:15:51number 10.

3:15:52Thank

3:15:59It's virtual

3:16:01item number 10.

3:16:03Oh my god, Virginia, I'm so sorry. Come

3:16:06on up.

3:16:07Um and Gabriel St. Claire, that was the

3:16:09one. Is Gabriel St. Claire in the room?

3:16:11>> Yes, I am.

3:16:13>> That does a

3:16:15Yeah, come on up.

3:16:18Okay, got it. Thank you.

3:16:21>> Good afternoon.

3:16:23Council members, city manager.

3:16:26Um

3:16:293 minutes.

3:16:30Uh I was

3:16:33holding to my seat as I listened to the

3:16:35presentation. Of course,

3:16:38I am no stranger to the housing

3:16:40authority staff, board members,

3:16:45and others. I attend those meetings

3:16:47frequently,

3:16:49and along with any chance given

3:16:52to publicly speak and support residents.

3:16:55Um

3:16:56I appreciate city council member

3:16:59Cook's opening remarks, that yes, we

3:17:03need the housing authority to succeed.

3:17:07We need housing.

3:17:09That's not a question.

3:17:11We know it's a housing crisis across the

3:17:14country. That's not a question. But what

3:17:17is the question is what is being done at

3:17:19the local level?

3:17:22I sit very challenged with the

3:17:24accountability.

3:17:26Just like others have stated about the

3:17:29calls they receive, I'm no stranger to

3:17:32publicly saying the calls that I receive

3:17:3424/7

3:17:36from all ages.

3:17:38Elders, working class, and others

3:17:41that not only live

3:17:43in communities sparked by violence,

3:17:47but also

3:17:49maintenance concerns.

3:17:52No one should have sewage coming up

3:17:57through their tub, or cannot bathe their

3:17:59child in a tub

3:18:02um due to the conditions,

3:18:04or have walls crumbling

3:18:06through years of water damage that go

3:18:11unheard, unseen, unresolved.

3:18:14I'm not going to say it's an easy task.

3:18:18I'm not going to say it's unexpensive.

3:18:21But what I am going to say is

3:18:24you can build all day long,

3:18:27but if you are not taking care of what

3:18:28presently exists,

3:18:31that building means nothing.

3:18:35I hear about Rag converted, Light Tech,

3:18:38all of those new developments arising.

3:18:41But I know I have brought residents from

3:18:44Willard Street,

3:18:46Ashton Place, Veranda to Witted, and

3:18:49those are supposed to be the new big

3:18:51beautiful

3:18:52projects to move residents into.

3:18:57And all of you have heard their

3:18:59concerns.

3:19:01So I don't want to sit here

3:19:03or allow anybody to sit here with the

3:19:06facade that when you move residents from

3:19:09one property that they're automatically

3:19:11moving to something better.

3:19:15I sit in eviction court, as you all

3:19:16know, most of you.

3:19:19And I listen to all the rental ledgers,

3:19:22sorry.

3:19:24Thank you.

3:19:24>> Thank you.

3:19:25Uh Gabriel uh Sinclair.

3:19:31Um

3:19:33>> Hi.

3:19:33>> Yeah, Miss one second. Miss Maze, if you

3:19:35have written comments you want to send

3:19:37the rest of them, please do.

3:19:39Welcome.

3:19:40>> Peace. All good to all people here.

3:19:42Really glad to be here. Maria Harris

3:19:44called me last night. Um and uh I

3:19:47thought I'd just speak off the cuff. I

3:19:49um

3:19:51live in uh

3:19:53at uh the J.J. Henderson building, which

3:19:56is uh

3:19:57uh public housing.

3:19:59Um I'm probably not saying that exactly

3:20:00correct, but anyway, it's uh definitely

3:20:04uh the Durham Housing Authority people

3:20:05have been wonderful to me.

3:20:07Um

3:20:08I've been living there for a year. For

3:20:0918 years before that, I lived at Forest

3:20:11Hills Heights.

3:20:13And then for 3 years previous to that, I

3:20:15lived at JJH.

3:20:17Um

3:20:18I would love it

3:20:21if I could then get back to

3:20:25uh if they build, you know, a nice nice

3:20:27new apartments where Forest Hills

3:20:29Heights used to be, well, I'd like to

3:20:31see what that looks like. So, I'm still

3:20:33on the list to you know, go back.

3:20:36I'd like to see what it looks like.

3:20:38And if it's nice, hey, I wouldn't mind

3:20:41going back. Uh I I found Forest Hills

3:20:44Heights to be very helpful to me.

3:20:46Um

3:20:48uh I found the people

3:20:49uh the Durham Housing Authority always

3:20:52uh

3:20:52always ready to listen to me. And uh you

3:20:56know, uh

3:20:57uh it's uh we had trees.

3:21:00Um

3:21:01I really am not interested in seeing 900

3:21:06apartments go up there

3:21:08>> [laughter]

3:21:09>> Forest Hills Heights used to be or where

3:21:11it still is. Um

3:21:14you know, I I don't I guess do maybe we

3:21:16need Do we need 900 apartments there? I

3:21:19don't know. There's only 55 apartments

3:21:21there now that are empty.

3:21:23And I lived in one of them for 18 years.

3:21:26Um so anyway, um I really have uh no

3:21:30complaints because if I have a

3:21:32difficulty, I just

3:21:34call

3:21:35Durham Housing Authority or I call the

3:21:37management team at JJH.

3:21:40And most of the time it gets addressed.

3:21:43Sometimes it doesn't and then I

3:21:45seek other people to talk with. But uh

3:21:48anyway, I just like to put in a good

3:21:50word for Durham Housing Authority and

3:21:52say they've been very helpful to me. I

3:21:54have an invisible disability.

3:21:56And uh living in public housing here in

3:21:59Durham helps me to

3:22:01um

3:22:02you know, live a

3:22:03pretty nice life. You know, I'm a

3:22:05minimalist. I don't have a car. I ride

3:22:08my I rode my bike here.

3:22:09You know, I live a I I sing in a church

3:22:11choir and so I don't have a real regular

3:22:15job. I teach Tai Chi and Chi Gong at a

3:22:17local park for free.

3:22:19You know, and I get to live in public

3:22:22housing cuz I hardly have any money.

3:22:24You know, I'm a senior citizen. I'm 73

3:22:26years old and I basically live on the

3:22:28minimum of social security. So I just

3:22:30like to say thank you to all of you and

3:22:32to Durham Housing Authority.

3:22:35>> I think I'm going to teach Tai Chi or

3:22:36learn it if I'm going to look like that

3:22:38at 73.

3:22:40Thank you all. Uh thank you

3:22:42Ms. Maze. Um Ms.

3:22:45Ball of paper up from from

3:22:48you.

3:22:49From legal.

3:22:52Horn's Downey. Yeah, thank you. Thank

3:22:54you Ms. St. Claire for you all of you

3:22:55all's comments.

3:22:57All right. Um

3:22:59That was a heavy agenda item. We're now

3:23:02going to go to trees.

3:23:06>> [laughter]

3:23:07>> Which could be just as intense.

3:23:11Don't feel like you need all 20 minutes,

3:23:13all right? Don't feel like you have to

3:23:14take it.

3:23:15>> [laughter]

3:23:32>> Good afternoon.

3:23:34Um Mr. Mayor, city managers, city of

3:23:37Durham council members, and all the

3:23:40present city hall staff. My name is

3:23:42Craig Reed. I'm the urban forestry

3:23:43program manager. I'm located in the

3:23:45urban forestry division in the general

3:23:47services department of the city. It's my

3:23:49pleasure to introduce today. We have

3:23:51Sarah Lilly. She is with Eocene

3:23:53Environmental Group. She's going to be

3:23:55presenting the results of our recent

3:23:56canopy study. This is part of a much

3:23:58larger USDA um urban forestry grant that

3:24:02we received. This is one of four major

3:24:03deliverables that we'll be having over

3:24:05the next few years, and really excited

3:24:07to hear it. So, thank you so much.

3:24:08Thanks for having us.

3:24:11>> Thanks, Craig.

3:24:13Uh good afternoon, Mayor, council

3:24:15members.

3:24:16All right, let's get into this. So, I'm

3:24:17Sarah Lilly, urban forestry consultant

3:24:20with Eocene Environmental.

3:24:22Here to talk about Durham's tree canopy

3:24:24assessment that we completed.

3:24:28Executive summary, so this is just an

3:24:30update. There's no decision being made

3:24:32here today. It's just a presenting on

3:24:34the project as it stands.

3:24:38So, why are we looking at trees?

3:24:40Um so, a bit of a lighter topic, but

3:24:42trees do provide a lot of benefits to

3:24:45the city of Durham and to all of the

3:24:47residents. They provide environmental,

3:24:50social, and health benefits that should

3:24:53be enjoyed by all people.

3:24:56So, the purpose of this project was to

3:24:58evaluate, set, and monitor the tree

3:25:01canopy goal, understand the areas where

3:25:04there is high tree canopy coverage and

3:25:05low tree canopy coverage

3:25:07and project tree loss and canopy change

3:25:10over time.

3:25:11With the overarching goal of being able

3:25:13to include this data on the city's GIS

3:25:16system to view in conjunction with other

3:25:19infrastructure.

3:25:22So we'll be going over the current tree

3:25:24canopy coverage, uh prior assessment

3:25:27that was completed about a decade ago

3:25:29and comparing the two. We'll look at

3:25:31trees

3:25:32planted in the public right-of-way and

3:25:35as well as how canopy changes in that

3:25:38right-of-way with different planting

3:25:40regimes.

3:25:41Before getting getting into conclusions

3:25:43and questions, I do want to acknowledge

3:25:46Durham has done an amazing job of

3:25:48planting and preserving its trees

3:25:51and this is shown by the city has been

3:25:54acknowledged as a Tree City USA for 42

3:25:57years this year. That's huge.

3:26:02So a little note about the different

3:26:04boundaries of we looked at. So we did go

3:26:06back in time to a former tree canopy

3:26:09assessment and at that time the city was

3:26:11a little bit smaller

3:26:13but we looked at that tree canopy cover

3:26:16and also compared it to the tree the

3:26:19city boundary as of 2024

3:26:22where an additional 10.5 square miles

3:26:24was added.

3:26:26And we also compared that to the urban

3:26:29growth boundary, so where the city is

3:26:31expanding to. That added another 55

3:26:34square miles to the assessment.

3:26:38And we also then zoomed in on the public

3:26:40right-of-way. This is where This is the

3:26:43area outside of parcels. It's where the

3:26:46city can plant and maintain trees.

3:26:50This is commonly along roadways and

3:26:52that's shown in this image as this

3:26:54bright green area along the road.

3:26:58So I mentioned that trees provide a lot

3:27:00of benefits to everyone in Durham. These

3:27:03are some of the major ones that are

3:27:05commonly thought of, so they provide

3:27:07shade and cooling. They remove pollution

3:27:09from the air, from the water. They

3:27:11create oxygen.

3:27:13They absorb storm water and can help

3:27:16prevent erosion.

3:27:17And this all leads to improved health,

3:27:20both mental and physical health

3:27:22consequences for people who live near

3:27:25trees.

3:27:26And in general, the greater the tree

3:27:28canopy cover, the more benefits that

3:27:30those trees provide.

3:27:33So, canopy cover can be defined as the

3:27:36portion of the land covered by trees.

3:27:38This is the branches, the leaves, the

3:27:40stem of the tree, as seen from above.

3:27:43So, we're going to have a lot of aerial

3:27:44imagery in here.

3:27:46And an important note is that this

3:27:48includes trees for a geographic area

3:27:51both on public property and private

3:27:54property. So, for example, there's the

3:27:56tree inventory currently happening right

3:27:58now as well. That's only public trees.

3:28:01This is a more broad view.

3:28:04And how is it measured? So, we get a

3:28:07bird's eye view satellite imagery and we

3:28:09use two methods here.

3:28:11The first is we use that satellite

3:28:12imagery and we threw out 6,000 random

3:28:15points and had an actual person go

3:28:18through and identify, is that a tree or

3:28:20not a tree? This was more statistically

3:28:23valid. And we use this to quality

3:28:26control a second method that use lidar

3:28:28imagery. So, satellite imagery that

3:28:30bounces light down and it comes back and

3:28:32it will tell you, is that a tree? Is it

3:28:35road surface? And the height.

3:28:37So, that is less statistically valid,

3:28:39but it's useful for smaller areas like

3:28:43parcels or neighborhoods or census

3:28:45tracts.

3:28:49And our assessment showed that this is

3:28:52just the overall data,

3:28:54tree canopy covers 54.7%

3:28:57of the surface in Durham city boundary

3:29:00as of 2024.

3:29:0225% of the land is covered by impervious

3:29:05surfaces. This is roads or roofs of

3:29:08buildings.

3:29:1016.2% was herbaceous, so grass, shrubs.

3:29:153.4% was bare soil and water was 0.7%.

3:29:21Comparing that to

3:29:23>> Can I just

3:29:24>> Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I'm just

3:29:26real quick on this slide. Um

3:29:27>> Sure.

3:29:29>> So, like tree canopy is the canopy, if

3:29:32it's like overhanging impervious

3:29:33surface, what would it show up as?

3:29:36>> So, that's a great question and

3:29:37something we argue about a lot. Um so,

3:29:40it does show up as tree canopy in that

3:29:42case because it is intercepting storm

3:29:44water and providing benefits over that

3:29:46area.

3:29:47>> Okay, so this isn't saying that 25% of

3:29:49the land is impervious. This is 25% of

3:29:52the land exposed to the sky.

3:29:54>> Correct.

3:29:54>> Okay.

3:29:56>> Yeah. And we have to work with the

3:29:58information we have, so

3:30:00we use that satellite imagery.

3:30:03So, comparing to other communities in

3:30:05North Carolina, only Asheville was

3:30:07measured to have a higher tree canopy

3:30:09cover at 55.9%

3:30:12and statewide the US Forest Service

3:30:16estimates that 60% of land is covered by

3:30:19trees.

3:30:21And I do want to point out in this

3:30:22slide, it does give the standard error

3:30:24of the mean, so 54.7%

3:30:27plus or minus 0.77%.

3:30:30There's data inaccuracies in the

3:30:32satellite imagery.

3:30:34Our method was 98.3% accurate, but

3:30:37there's a little inconsistency in there.

3:30:39I just want to mention that that'll come

3:30:40up in a minute.

3:30:44So, we looked at tree canopy cover

3:30:45across census tracts in Durham, which is

3:30:48what we see here. The lowest tree canopy

3:30:51cover is right dab in the center, 18%

3:30:54tree canopy cover right here.

3:30:56The highest was 76%

3:30:59and we compared it against population

3:31:01density

3:31:02in general, as tree canopy or sorry, as

3:31:05population density goes up, tree canopy

3:31:08goes down.

3:31:10And looking at those two census tracts

3:31:12in a little more detail, the one with

3:31:15the highest tree canopy coverage in the

3:31:16southwest corner,

3:31:18it had a lot of undeveloped land owned

3:31:20by the US Army Corps of Engineers

3:31:22and a lot of older subdivisions, which I

3:31:24grabbed a screenshot of street view just

3:31:26with mature trees.

3:31:28And of course, the lowest canopy tract

3:31:30is right here, downtown. There's just a

3:31:32lot of parking lots, buildings, uh

3:31:35recreational fields where you can't

3:31:37plant trees.

3:31:42So, we took the data from the previous

3:31:43canopy assessment as well as the current

3:31:46time frame. We basically layered them on

3:31:48top of each other

3:31:50to create this map that's in blue and

3:31:52red, where blue is where canopy has been

3:31:55unchanged, red is where canopy has been

3:31:57lost, and it does show some green on

3:32:00there, but canopy has also been gained.

3:32:03And this is not indicative of the entire

3:32:05city. This is just a snapshot that we

3:32:07grabbed, but it does show, for example,

3:32:09in 2024, there's a new development going

3:32:11in, there is tree canopy loss.

3:32:16This zooms in on the data a little bit

3:32:18more and I like this one a lot because

3:32:20>> one of So, that that was just an

3:32:21example. Like, how did you pick the

3:32:23Leasburg Road and Garden Gate Drive?

3:32:24That's just like a random just to sort

3:32:26of show the process?

3:32:27>> Yeah, just a random example.

3:32:30>> Thanks.

3:32:31>> Not indicative of the entire city.

3:32:35And but I did choose this picture in

3:32:37particular because it did show a good

3:32:39example of how where a tree has been cut

3:32:42down to the top left of that building,

3:32:45um you see the red where a tree canopy

3:32:47has been lost, but tree canopy has been

3:32:50maintained in blue. And around each of

3:32:52the trees, you see this halo of new

3:32:55growth.

3:32:56And any arborist here would be very glad

3:32:59to take you outside, show you a tree,

3:33:00show how every tree is putting on a

3:33:02little bit of growth every year.

3:33:08So, now we're going to look at the

3:33:09different city boundaries that we looked

3:33:11at. And using the city boundary as it

3:33:14was in 2016,

3:33:16about a decade ago, the tree canopy

3:33:18cover was 52%

3:33:20and we measured it at 53.4%

3:33:23in more recent times. There is the

3:33:25caveat, this change may be negligible

3:33:29with statistical error.

3:33:31They're more likely to be equal than

3:33:34they are to be different.

3:33:36And this trend is continued if we look

3:33:38at the 2024 city boundary.

3:33:41So, it seems [snorts] like it went up a

3:33:44little, but that change may be

3:33:45negligible with statistical error.

3:33:48So, 53.9% to 54.7%.

3:33:53And then again, looking at the urban

3:33:55growth boundary,

3:33:57it was 57.7%

3:33:58a decade ago, tree canopy cover was

3:34:01measured at 58.9%

3:34:04currently.

3:34:05Again, this change may be negligible. In

3:34:07general, each of these numbers has about

3:34:091% give or take where it's accurate.

3:34:16So, this may be surprising because it is

3:34:19very easy to see where trees are being

3:34:22removed. So, like in that image that I

3:34:24showed earlier with that big red blotch,

3:34:27um, it's easy to see when trees are

3:34:29taken down and houses and impervious

3:34:32surfaces are put in. However, for all

3:34:35the trees that are out there across

3:34:36Durham, there's millions, they are

3:34:38putting on a little bit of growth every

3:34:40year.

3:34:42This isn't to say that we can rely on

3:34:44that continuous growth to offset any

3:34:47trees that are removed.

3:34:49Trees do still need to be maintained for

3:34:52their growth

3:34:53and they need to be planted in order to

3:34:56provide future canopy benefits.

3:35:01So, this leads to the next assessment

3:35:03that we did talking about tree planting.

3:35:06And we did a potential planting

3:35:08assessment of trees in the public right

3:35:11of way.

3:35:13Again, this is because this is where the

3:35:15city can plant trees. They can plant

3:35:17trees on other public

3:35:19properties, but

3:35:21trees along streets do provide a lot of

3:35:23benefits to pedestrians and people

3:35:26across the city.

3:35:29>> Yeah.

3:35:30>> Sorry, I have a question. I have a lot

3:35:31of junk, too. Um if you go back to like

3:35:33the public right of way, I just have a

3:35:35question about as the trees mature, is

3:35:36it being considered how the roots may

3:35:38impact like the infrastructure around

3:35:40also the sidewalks or just how like how

3:35:43are you thinking about that moving

3:35:44forward?

3:35:45>> That's a great question. Um that was not

3:35:47part of this assessment. I do have some

3:35:49arborists from the city with me today.

3:35:53Not sure if they want to speak on that

3:35:54yet or if you

3:35:55>> I'm happy to answer that.

3:35:58Yeah.

3:35:58>> If you go to the mic, please. Thank you.

3:36:00>> So, I was used to being very loud, so I

3:36:02don't use microphones all the time. Um

3:36:04yes, we absolutely take that into

3:36:05consideration. I mean, utilities is

3:36:07something that's really important,

3:36:08underground utilities, sidewalks. I

3:36:10mean, I don't need to tell everyone in

3:36:11this room, but

3:36:13we are in touch with sidewalk like the

3:36:15other groups with environmental street

3:36:16services where new projects are

3:36:17happening, being conscious of that. Um

3:36:21if an area does not will not sustain a

3:36:23larger tree, then we put a smaller tree

3:36:24in there. But, we are trying to add as

3:36:26much canopy to where we can. Um also, I

3:36:29mean, you did not specifically, but we

3:36:31take into account obviously overhead

3:36:32lines and things like that as well.

3:36:34>> And are you also monitoring the tree

3:36:36like the um freshly planted trees for

3:36:38like disease and like cuz I've seen some

3:36:39look kind of little shady. So I'm just

3:36:41want to know if like how often they're

3:36:43monitored.

3:36:43>> I can use this for the next year at

3:36:45least. We had probably the worst I've

3:36:48been in North Carolina my whole life.

3:36:49Probably the worst drought, some of the

3:36:50worst conditions over the last year. So

3:36:53if you see a tree that's not looking its

3:36:54best,

3:36:56give it a break. It's it's trying. If

3:36:57it's still alive, it's doing pretty

3:36:58good. Um all that to be said, yes, we we

3:37:01are monitoring for disease. We do

3:37:02monitor I mean always um we're really

3:37:05lucky that we have a lot of very

3:37:06passionate you know residents who let us

3:37:08know, but our own team, we're out there

3:37:09in the community. We're actively

3:37:11monitoring situations and especially

3:37:12disease like you mentioned.

3:37:14If we start to see that that's something

3:37:15that we want to remove it so it doesn't

3:37:16become something that you know can

3:37:18affect more trees in the community.

3:37:19>> Okay, just while we're here, last

3:37:20question, I promise. Um

3:37:22in terms of trees we plant, is there cuz

3:37:24we know there's a really beautiful fruit

3:37:25tree downtown when we were coming back

3:37:27from the parade. I think it's called the

3:37:28raisin aisle. So like is there ever

3:37:29opportunity to plant more fruit bearing

3:37:31trees or is it like generally

3:37:32>> So I get asked this a lot. Um

3:37:36I'm agnostic on fruit tree I think

3:37:37they're they're great, but I think that

3:37:39it can present a lot of other issues

3:37:40that you have. Um

3:37:42it can have unwanted pests that come

3:37:44with fruit trees. I mean mess, birds,

3:37:46this or that.

3:37:48I think that there's just been reason

3:37:50and maybe precedent set that we don't

3:37:52usually plant fruit trees um in that

3:37:54streetscape of environment, but you

3:37:56know, luckily we do have a great partner

3:37:57in Keep Durham Beautiful who's able to

3:37:59plant you know plant on parks and

3:38:00private property and things like that. I

3:38:02do know there are some groups within the

3:38:04larger city you know, outside the right

3:38:05of way that are planting fruit trees.

3:38:07>> Okay, thank you for that. I just make

3:38:08that um statement because we know like

3:38:10during the spring we get those pollen

3:38:11blooms cuz we don't have enough like we

3:38:13have too many male trees not enough

3:38:14female trees. So just thinking about how

3:38:15we can like mitigate that someone who's

3:38:16allergic. But thank you so much for

3:38:18that.

3:38:18>> Thank you.

3:38:21>> All right, thanks for the questions and

3:38:23looking out for trees.

3:38:26All right, so I had to boot that

3:38:27question because we just did this GIS

3:38:30assessment. So a lot of computer work.

3:38:32Unfortunately, It's more fun to go

3:38:34outside and look at trees.

3:38:36Um so, to assess the potential planting

3:38:38areas in the public right of way, we had

3:38:41a lot of GIS layers that were provided

3:38:43to us. So, we took the 2020 forest

3:38:46satellite imagery. We basically

3:38:48cookie-cuttered out the existing

3:38:50parcels.

3:38:51We took out the canopy that we measured.

3:38:53We took out the trees that had been

3:38:55inventoried already because you don't

3:38:57you can't plant trees on top of trees.

3:39:00We took out street signs because the

3:39:02city has an ordinance about how close a

3:39:04tree can be planted to a street sign.

3:39:07Similarly, we buffered out road

3:39:09intersections. We don't want trees

3:39:11planted next to intersections to create

3:39:13sightline issues.

3:39:15And after all of that taking away, we

3:39:17came up with these potential plantable

3:39:19areas in the public right of way. It's

3:39:21these very narrow bright green strips in

3:39:23this image here.

3:39:27And taking that area, we then went into

3:39:29a math exercise where we said, "Okay, we

3:39:32have large, medium, and small trees that

3:39:34we can plant in these areas and their

3:39:36general size."

3:39:38And we prioritized large trees because

3:39:41they provide the most benefits. And with

3:39:44that, we came up with just over 2.3

3:39:46million potential planting sites for

3:39:49trees

3:39:50to potentially add 2,665

3:39:53acres of tree canopy.

3:39:56And of course, with all data, there is

3:39:57the caveat. We didn't have all the data

3:40:00available to us.

3:40:02A large one was overhead utilities.

3:40:04Power companies don't share that

3:40:06information.

3:40:07So, we are unable to say if a site is

3:40:09actually feasible for a large tree, but

3:40:12it could be feasible for a small tree.

3:40:14And

3:40:15Durham employees do verify that before

3:40:18putting a tree in the ground.

3:40:20And while 2,665

3:40:22acres seems like a lot,

3:40:24uh this graphic just kind of shows that

3:40:27acreage is in that yellow. The gray is

3:40:29the total right of way area. So, it only

3:40:32makes up 19% of the total right of way

3:40:35and a fraction of that greenish area,

3:40:37which is the land on private parcels.

3:40:41So, there's a lot of planting

3:40:42opportunities out there.

3:40:44And the public right of way may not

3:40:46always be the best place to plant trees.

3:40:49Your city has done an amazing job of

3:40:51planting lots of trees there for the

3:40:54benefit of people. But, as this image

3:40:56shows, they sometimes struggle there.

3:40:57It's hard. They cause hardscape issues.

3:41:00Um there's limited soil volume. It

3:41:02requires a lot of maintenance from the

3:41:04city. And these trees, they don't all

3:41:06have a host figure right there. So, it's

3:41:08a lot of maintenance moving around

3:41:11all over the city.

3:41:13So, that's just something to keep in

3:41:14mind. And I'm sure everyone here and

3:41:17your team here keeps that in mind when

3:41:19planting trees across the city.

3:41:23And

3:41:25I did mention your city has done an

3:41:26amazing job of planting trees. I believe

3:41:28there's been over 8,000 trees planted

3:41:30this year and over 150 planted with Keep

3:41:33Durham Beautiful, which is incredible.

3:41:36In 2018, there was an urban forest

3:41:38management plan that recommended

3:41:40planting 1,500 trees a year and that's

3:41:42been met or exceeded.

3:41:47So, the final part of this assessment,

3:41:50we took the current tree inventory

3:41:53and we looked at how canopy would change

3:41:56according to four different planting

3:41:58regimes.

3:41:59So, if there was no planting, if 500

3:42:02trees or 1,000 or 1,500 trees were

3:42:05planted every year.

3:42:08And we took that tree inventory, we

3:42:11calculated tree growth, we estimated

3:42:14tree mortality using scientific studies,

3:42:17and then we threw in that annual 500,

3:42:191,000, 1,500 planting of trees to come

3:42:22up with the new time period's tree

3:42:25population and canopy cover.

3:42:28And this was all calculated by a

3:42:30software provided by the US Forest

3:42:32Service called i-Tree Eco.

3:42:36And so with no additional planting, if

3:42:38you just let, you know, the trees that

3:42:40are out there die off at about a 5%

3:42:42mortality [clears throat] rate, the

3:42:44number of trees would go down and tree

3:42:45canopy would also go down.

3:42:49i-Tree Eco showed that planting 500

3:42:51trees a year, overall the tree number

3:42:53would go down, but tree canopy would

3:42:55start to creep up as those trees, you

3:42:57know, grow and build upon their canopy

3:42:59year after year.

3:43:01And similarly, adding a thousand trees,

3:43:04a slight

3:43:05downtrend in the number of trees, but

3:43:07tree canopy goes up.

3:43:09And planting 1,500 trees a year,

3:43:13that's when you start to get overcome

3:43:14the annual mortality rate and you start

3:43:17to get a growth in the number of trees

3:43:19that are out there.

3:43:21And I think this is just a further

3:43:22testament to the General Services

3:43:24Department and all the tree planting

3:43:26that the city has done, meeting that

3:43:281,500 trees a year quota to add to the

3:43:32city's tree canopy.

3:43:37And just some final takeaways here.

3:43:40So there was a 54.7%

3:43:43tree canopy within the city limits and

3:43:4558.9%

3:43:47within the urban growth boundary. That

3:43:49area hasn't been developed yet.

3:43:52So keeping in mind

3:43:54preservation methods to keep those trees

3:43:57and replace trees as areas are developed

3:44:00is extremely important.

3:44:02The canopy has been maintained in the

3:44:04past decade. This is through the city's

3:44:07efforts of proactive planning and

3:44:09maintenance.

3:44:11And an estimated 2,665

3:44:14acres of potentially plantable area was

3:44:15calculated.

3:44:18And while planting in the right-of-way

3:44:20is important and does provide benefits

3:44:22to many people,

3:44:25there can also be efforts to plant on

3:44:28private property. Um and it should be

3:44:30kept in mind that trees in the

3:44:32right-of-way are the responsibility of

3:44:34the city and it may require additional

3:44:36funding to maintain extra trees.

3:44:39And I think one of the final conclusions

3:44:41I wanted to make and mention, and I'm

3:44:43sure you're all aware of, um

3:44:46this year has been one of the driest

3:44:48years for the city of Durham.

3:44:51But it also has been one of the wettest

3:44:53Julys on record in the city of Durham,

3:44:56which is

3:44:58just showing how our climate is

3:45:00changing.

3:45:02Weather events are becoming more

3:45:03extreme.

3:45:04That's hard for trees. It's hard for all

3:45:06of us. And there are further stressors

3:45:09on the urban forest, such as pests that

3:45:11have been introduced.

3:45:13And just something to keep in mind that

3:45:16maintaining your tree canopy is

3:45:18incredibly important.

3:45:22So going forward, this data will be used

3:45:24by General Services to track the

3:45:26progress of the 2018 planting goals

3:45:30and to plan for future planting.

3:45:33They have an idea of where in the

3:45:34right-of-way they can add additional

3:45:36trees.

3:45:37The Planning Department can use this

3:45:38information to track the canopy cover in

3:45:41the urban growth boundary and how future

3:45:43development affects it

3:45:45and ensure that UDO standards are being

3:45:47met in the comprehensive plan.

3:45:52And with that, I do have to mention this

3:45:54is a grant-funded project through the US

3:45:56Department of Agriculture Forest

3:45:58Service. And big thank you to the team

3:46:01that helped me out here on the city of

3:46:02Durham. Um and I want to give a special

3:46:04thank you to my GIS analyst, Matt.

3:46:08And with that, if there are any further

3:46:10questions?

3:46:12>> Thank you so much. Um I I just had a

3:46:14quick question. The um

3:46:17when when residents plant trees in their

3:46:19yard that grows over into the

3:46:22right-of-way,

3:46:22>> Mhm.

3:46:23>> what is the process? Well, this might be

3:46:25a city

3:46:26>> That's yeah.

3:46:26>> city question.

3:46:27>> That's okay.

3:46:28>> I mean, I heard you

3:46:29>> They're here.

3:46:29>> I did hear you quietly say you want to

3:46:31work with the city of Durham.

3:46:33>> So, the question is so if I plant a tree

3:46:36in my private property and then it

3:46:37starts to kind of encroach into the

3:46:38right-of-way,

3:46:40who's the responsibility?

3:46:40>> blocking the view

3:46:42uh of

3:46:44There's a stop sign in East Durham that

3:46:46no one knows is a stop sign because the

3:46:47tree in the private yard has grown over

3:46:50to block the stop sign and we're

3:46:52experiencing a high volume of crashes

3:46:54there.

3:46:55I think transportation has now cleared

3:46:57it up, but yeah, but I was just

3:46:59wondering what is that process?

3:47:01>> I'm kind of looking back there at them a

3:47:03little bit, but um in my theory it'd be

3:47:05something that we'd have a technician.

3:47:06Um we have someone Bobby Tan who's been

3:47:08with us almost 30 years. They would go

3:47:10out, you know, engage with the resident,

3:47:11you know, let them know that this is

3:47:12something that's a safety hazard. Even

3:47:14though the tree is technically not city

3:47:16responsibility responsibility on our

3:47:18property, we try to mitigate it and

3:47:20Alex, I'll let him

3:47:22take it back over.

3:47:23>> Good afternoon. Thank you.

3:47:24>> And I'm only asking you guys on record

3:47:25so I can record this and show it to the

3:47:26residents that we are addressing it.

3:47:28>> No, absolutely. Um so, visual

3:47:31obstructions are uh assessed by the

3:47:34transportation department.

3:47:36Um and if there is an issue that needs

3:47:38to be addressed through code

3:47:41enforcement, we hand that off to code

3:47:43enforcement. So, um we do not

3:47:47prune

3:47:48private trees that encroach into the

3:47:50right-of-way.

3:47:52We We We let the the resident take care

3:47:54of that, but but the issue needs to be

3:47:57uh assessed by the appropriate

3:47:59department

3:48:01and the the subject matter experts that

3:48:03are there.

3:48:04>> Okay.

3:48:05Thank you.

3:48:06Colleagues, any any questions?

3:48:09Um Councillor Rebecca.

3:48:13>> Thank you so much for your presentation.

3:48:16Um just a couple things. Um

3:48:19Uh

3:48:20so, we we know that there are costs um

3:48:22and benefits to to trees and sometimes

3:48:25it's hard to put a number to certain

3:48:28costs and certain benefits.

3:48:30Um they can do place some wear and tear

3:48:32on infrastructure. They can also um

3:48:35reduce heat island effect, which can

3:48:37also benefit infrastructure.

3:48:39Um

3:48:41So, you all looked at where trees could

3:48:44potentially go within the public right

3:48:45of way. Um

3:48:47I'm curious also if you considered

3:48:50places where there might be heavy

3:48:51pedestrian traffic because those

3:48:54because pedestrians, I think

3:48:58s- really benefit from street trees both

3:49:01um the canopy as well as the location of

3:49:05the tree separating them from moving

3:49:08vehicles. Like, if it's adjacent to um

3:49:11the the curb. And so, I'm just curious

3:49:13if if you all took a look at

3:49:15incorporated that at all into your

3:49:18analysis.

3:49:20>> Sure, yeah. Um that's a great point and

3:49:23it's not something that we considered in

3:49:25our analysis. We just identified where

3:49:27trees could be planted. I'm wondering if

3:49:30Craig wants to step up because they are

3:49:32working on developing an urban forest

3:49:34management plan and that's part of other

3:49:36parts of this grant and that could be a

3:49:38factor in that plan.

3:49:42>> Okay, thank you. Yeah, I've I've seen

3:49:44other cities that kind of designated

3:49:46like A streets and B streets where A

3:49:48streets are very heavily um

3:49:52pedestrianized and those are areas where

3:49:55the city says, "Look, this is worth it

3:49:57for us to plant the best possible trees

3:49:59and get that canopy."

3:50:01Um whereas B streets, we would love to

3:50:03have that, but they're less prioritized

3:50:05because specifically because of

3:50:07pedestrian traffic. So, just something

3:50:09that um maybe we'll consider moving

3:50:12forward. Um and then there have been

3:50:14times where I'll see

3:50:17especially in downtown Durham where the

3:50:19street gets dug up, um curb and gutter

3:50:23gets dug up, sidewalk gets dug up for uh

3:50:27a new development, and then the power

3:50:29lines don't get buried. And so, even in

3:50:32a very heavily pedestrianized area, um

3:50:36power lines remain up uh above, and then

3:50:40um no no trees get get planted. Um and

3:50:43then we we repave the street, um replace

3:50:46the curb and gutter, and put down the

3:50:47sidewalk. So, um

3:50:50I'm just curious if you think that

3:50:53burying the power lines would be

3:50:54beneficial to being able to plant uh

3:50:57street trees in some of our heavy

3:50:58pedestrian areas?

3:51:00>> That's a great question. Um so, I do

3:51:02have to say I have a have a background

3:51:03in utility forestry, and it is hard to

3:51:06plant underground power lines. It is

3:51:08extremely expensive, and there are

3:51:10consequential root problems infiltrating

3:51:13those power lines. To bury them, you

3:51:15have to trench and rip off off a lot of

3:51:18roots, which can kill existing trees.

3:51:21Um

3:51:22so, there still has to be uh um like a

3:51:25minimum approach distance almost

3:51:27underground the same as there would be

3:51:29above. So, there's a little give and

3:51:32take there.

3:51:38>> I will stop advocating for underground

3:51:39power lines.

3:51:41>> I I didn't say that, but

3:51:42>> I'm going to stop. I I

3:51:44I always say, "Why don't they just put

3:51:46them underground so the trees don't

3:51:47fall?" Now I see

3:51:49that trees could

3:51:49>> What what is the cost associated with

3:51:51putting them underground?

3:51:53>> Oh, I don't know that number off the top

3:51:54of my head. You'd have to ask

3:51:55>> Well, city. it would be like digging up

3:51:58the digging up the

3:52:00>> Mhm.

3:52:01>> the pavement, right?

3:52:02>> Right.

3:52:03>> So, like if it's already dug up

3:52:06>> I mean, that would definitely help the

3:52:07cost. Yes.

3:52:08>> All right.

3:52:10>> Yeah. I've been asking for tree for

3:52:13power lines to go in the ground for a

3:52:14long time, but now I see.

3:52:17Go ahead.

3:52:18>> Thanks for the myth. Um thanks for the

3:52:19presentation. Fascinating and and quite

3:52:21a change of pace from our previous

3:52:22presentation. I I must ask.

3:52:24>> [laughter]

3:52:25>> But still important for the social

3:52:27>> Trees are important, yeah.

3:52:29Um so, the first thing is um you know,

3:52:31we're in a growing city, as you know,

3:52:33right? And we have a lot of growth

3:52:34pressures. Um I think top level, the

3:52:37fact that we maintain our canopy in the

3:52:39past decade is actually an important

3:52:41important headline. And that's you're

3:52:43saying that's because of both proactive

3:52:44planting and maintenance, but also to

3:52:46some extent protecting plant trees where

3:52:48we've been growing, right? Developing

3:52:50it.

3:52:50Um so, that's that's good to to to know.

3:52:53Um

3:52:54I guess my question is on this um so,

3:52:57that what's UFMP?

3:53:00>> Uh Urban Forest Management Plan.

3:53:01>> Got you. So, what so since 2018 we've

3:53:03had a goal of planting 1,500 trees a

3:53:06year, right? And in the model you

3:53:08presented there, obviously the more

3:53:09trees you plant, you're going to sort of

3:53:10see more impact on the tree canopy,

3:53:11right? So, does that plan like how far

3:53:14does that plan go? And are we sort of

3:53:16like at the end of the sort of end of

3:53:17that plan? And so, what is I'm I'm kind

3:53:19of wondering in terms of the conclusions

3:53:21and sort of next steps. Um

3:53:24are we sort of is there a request at

3:53:26some point for to continue that planning

3:53:28increase planning like and I don't know

3:53:29what it cost to plant 1,500 trees a

3:53:31year. So, if you can give me some sense

3:53:33of what that all looks like.

3:53:34>> Sure. So, I believe as an additional

3:53:36part of this project, not that I was

3:53:38involved in, but they are updating the

3:53:40Urban Forest Management Plan. So, that

3:53:42will undoubtedly go into it. I don't

3:53:44know if

3:53:45>> Please, please.

3:53:47>> They have the overarching project. I

3:53:48just have a small portion.

3:53:50>> Erase that one. Um so, yes, the the plan

3:53:52that we put through in 2018,

3:53:55that I mean, we're still technically

3:53:56active, but we have a new plan that's

3:53:58currently being done. So, the contractor

3:54:00that we've gone through, they are

3:54:01currently doing an inventory of all

3:54:03trees that are managed by the city

3:54:05within the right of way. Um,

3:54:07simultaneously, we're about to actually

3:54:08put out a public survey to get, you

3:54:11know, public opinion on trees. What do

3:54:12you think? Are we doing a good job not?

3:54:14And then this will be a new urban forest

3:54:15management plan that they'll give us

3:54:17that will have prescriptions, ideas of

3:54:20do this. Or are you spending, you know,

3:54:22is it is it is it the right thing to

3:54:23plant this many trees? What's the

3:54:24maintenance requirements? I mean, one

3:54:26thing I'll say with the drought that

3:54:27we've mentioned is, you know, trying to

3:54:29water newly planted trees, that's really

3:54:31important. So, there are, you know,

3:54:32limitations on staffing and the

3:54:34infrastructure that we do have for it,

3:54:36but regardless, we're going to have

3:54:38something new in the spring that should

3:54:39be basically our direction for about the

3:54:41next decade. I think that's kind of your

3:54:43question was

3:54:43>> Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah. And so, just to

3:54:45to sort of go into that further. And

3:54:46again, I I think this is I think it's

3:54:48great. I think we should do all this.

3:54:49Like, what is it? Yeah. Yeah.

3:54:51We agree on this. Um, so what does it

3:54:54what does it cost annually for those

3:54:561,500 or more trees for the planting and

3:54:58then the maintenance and then what's the

3:54:59total? Like, well, how much are we

3:55:00spending on this? I'm curious. I don't

3:55:02We haven't looked at

3:55:03>> throw out some numbers, but does anyone

3:55:05behind me want to I mean,

3:55:07I'm happy to answer enough, but

3:55:10>> a ballpark Yeah.

3:55:13>> Kevin has a code. Kevin.

3:55:17>> Good afternoon. Kevin Lilly, Assistant

3:55:19Director of General Services. And I

3:55:21don't have a ballpark figure for it for

3:55:23what it cost to put in 1,500 trees a

3:55:25year because we have relied on a lot of

3:55:27partnerships.

3:55:28We have relied on a water into trees uh,

3:55:32line item in your water bill where

3:55:34people can donate us money.

3:55:36Uh, we work with a budget and adjust the

3:55:39tree size to the budget that we have.

3:55:43And then we work with community

3:55:44partners, uh, partnerships, uh,

3:55:47nonprofits, the universities Keep Durham

3:55:49Beautiful to assist us in allocating

3:55:51more trees, to water the trees, to care

3:55:53for the trees, and to actually plant

3:55:54more trees.

3:55:56>> That's helpful. And And it's good that

3:55:57we're utilizing partnerships to make

3:55:59that happen. It'd be helpful to have

3:56:00some sense of you could If you could

3:56:01sort of like give us some kind of What's

3:56:03the figure? Like it's something

3:56:04>> I can get that for you. Yes, sir.

3:56:06>> Yeah. Yeah.

3:56:07>> Yes.

3:56:07>> Just to have a sense. And then I guess

3:56:08the the follow-up question would then

3:56:10be, so going forward with the new plan,

3:56:12are we expecting that to sort of

3:56:13increase what we're investing? Or I'm

3:56:16happy to consider that, but I'm just

3:56:17kind of curious if we're if we're Is

3:56:18that's part of the plan, or if you're

3:56:20sort of

3:56:20>> of the plan. What we've asked we have uh

3:56:22as as Craig alluded to, we have three uh

3:56:25primary goals. Uh

3:56:27three companies that we're working with.

3:56:29Eocene on the canopy study. Then we're

3:56:31taking the canopy study and giving that

3:56:33to Arbor Pro, who's doing our inventory,

3:56:36and they are also going to be building

3:56:38for us a management plan, which will

3:56:41carry us forward to the next decade. And

3:56:43then we're working with Southern

3:56:45Gardens, a local company right here.

3:56:46They're doing planting for us. They're

3:56:48planting 4,000 trees over the next 3

3:56:50years. So that the the combination of

3:56:53the $5.4 million grant we have will

3:56:56encompass all of this.

3:56:57We anticipate the plan will come with

3:57:00costs on what a

3:57:02an urban forest budget should look like

3:57:04for the city the size of Durham, with

3:57:07the tree canopy we have, with the trees

3:57:09that we've got, and what we're trying to

3:57:10accomplish. And we hope to see all of

3:57:12that as Craig alluded to in the spring

3:57:14of uh 2027.

3:57:17>> Yeah, so we look forward to that. I

3:57:18guess the last final question. So, in

3:57:20terms of that investment, how do we

3:57:21stack up compared to peers? Or do we

3:57:23have like more investment in urban

3:57:25forestry than others? Less? Like how do

3:57:27we Where do we stack up?

3:57:29>> I just got back from a conference in

3:57:30Hickory, North Carolina 3 weeks ago. I

3:57:33think we are

3:57:34>> be better than Hickory, right?

3:57:35>> Yeah.

3:57:35>> Yeah.

3:57:36>> I think we're doing phenomenal compared

3:57:37to our our neighbors. I think we are

3:57:40maintaining a

3:57:42a very respectable tree canopy. Anytime

3:57:45you're over 40% it's remarkable for a

3:57:48city the size of Durham. The fact that

3:57:51we have exceeded 50% and and are going

3:57:53in the right direction considering the

3:57:55development that Durham has seen

3:57:57is phenomenal. Our staff

3:58:01for size-wise we are smaller than some,

3:58:04larger than others, but we're able to do

3:58:05most of it in-house where some of our

3:58:08local communities are contracting out a

3:58:10lot of that work. So, I think our model

3:58:12is working and I think that we have set

3:58:15a good goal for for other communities to

3:58:18follow.

3:58:20>> And And what's our UDO goal? Our UDO

3:58:22goal is

3:58:24The UDO goal was set at 55%.

3:58:26>> 55%? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

3:58:26>> Yeah, okay.

3:58:27>> And so, we're we're slightly above that

3:58:29citywide.

3:58:29>> Slightly below that. We're moving in the

3:58:31right direction

3:58:32>> Yeah.

3:58:33>> Okay.

3:58:34>> Yep.

3:58:34>> Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

3:58:35>> Thank you.

3:58:44>> I'm just wondering, I know you talked

3:58:45about it briefly, but why we prioritize

3:58:48large trees over like medium-sized trees

3:58:50particularly in sort of dense downtown

3:58:53or like other sort of urban areas?

3:58:56>> So, where space allows large trees are

3:58:58preferred because they do end up

3:59:00providing more benefits overall.

3:59:03So, if you can imagine planting a crepe

3:59:05myrtle might have a small canopy, but

3:59:07planting a larger oak tree, you know,

3:59:09you might get a much larger canopy

3:59:12in the future which will provide more

3:59:13benefits.

3:59:15>> Okay. And so, that And that is taking

3:59:17into account like the possible

3:59:19also consequences of having like larger

3:59:22roots and larger trunk and like all of

3:59:24the extra things that that would entail.

3:59:26>> That is something to keep in mind for

3:59:28sure. I don't think there's a direct

3:59:30correlation there or hasn't been

3:59:32directly calculated, but yes, that is

3:59:35something to consider.

3:59:36>> Okay, interesting. Um I'm also wondering

3:59:38and you might not be the right person

3:59:39for this, but you might be, if there was

3:59:41any conversation with our Environmental

3:59:43Affairs Board um in in this work. Maybe

3:59:47it's staff.

3:59:48Staff cool.

3:59:49Hey.

3:59:50>> Yes. Yes. Um, before we went through

3:59:53this, before it came to council to be

3:59:55approved, to be contracted, all that

3:59:57good stuff, um I actually presented,

3:59:59mentioned all these different things to

4:00:01that to that that group, discussed it

4:00:03all, the benefits and you know

4:00:05what we're trying to accomplish through

4:00:06it.

4:00:07And um yeah, answer any questions and

4:00:10you know, try to stay as engaged as I

4:00:12can with them and I'll just add to the

4:00:14thing we said earlier real quickly about

4:00:16utilities is that we also do try to work

4:00:19with other city departments in groups

4:00:20and utilities, sidewalks, transportation

4:00:23to make sure that we're not existing in

4:00:25a silo, that we communicate and

4:00:27collaborate as much as possible.

4:00:28>> Awesome. Thank you.

4:00:34>> All right.

4:00:35Well, thank you

4:00:36Mayor Pro Tem.

4:00:38>> Thank you. I appreciate the

4:00:40presentation. I was

4:00:41early days on council and we talked

4:00:43about our canopy around this plan,

4:00:45around equity, around where trees were

4:00:46planted initially. [clears throat] It

4:00:47was a huge conversation, I think back in

4:00:49like 2018, so it's kind of impressive to

4:00:51see like decisions made and how they

4:00:54came to fruition. Okay.

4:00:57Um, I will say that one thing that has

4:00:58come up

4:00:59as we plant more and I agree with that

4:01:02and I'm sure in this next plan is

4:01:05just to wrap I mean, I've seen two trees

4:01:06come down around luckily not on my

4:01:08property because we had to take several

4:01:10down.

4:01:11Um

4:01:12just because of drought resistance, the

4:01:14roots get real dry and they just tip

4:01:16right over. Um, and I think that that's

4:01:18going to happen a lot, so I'm I'm

4:01:19assuming that within the next round

4:01:21we're going to think about I mean, I

4:01:22know that's why we've been moving more

4:01:23towards native plantings, that's one of

4:01:25the reasons we're really seeing a lot of

4:01:26those proffers in our

4:01:28in our rezoning cases because

4:01:31drought, you know, native trees tend to

4:01:33be able to handle more extreme um

4:01:36weather climate issues than something

4:01:38that's like a crepe myrtle is not

4:01:40native. Um

4:01:41and so uh

4:01:43just want to see if that's something

4:01:45that we're thinking about. Is that kind

4:01:46of climate resiliency component in the

4:01:49next phase? So, that's one question. And

4:01:51then the second question is and I've had

4:01:54this struggle as somebody who

4:01:55occasionally not like Councilmember

4:01:57Wrist or Copac or even the mayor bikes.

4:01:59Um

4:02:00in the fall and in the into the winter

4:02:02until our street crews can really get

4:02:05out there, it can be really sketchy to

4:02:06ride your bike. And I just want to share

4:02:08that as a as another thing to think

4:02:10about like a you know, unintended

4:02:12consequence. When there's a ton of

4:02:14leaves uh and debris and you can't see

4:02:17and it gets slick, I mean, you can biff

4:02:18pretty easily. And so,

4:02:20is that something that kind of again,

4:02:22that collaborative collaboration across

4:02:24departments, especially with

4:02:25transportation. I want trees. I I think

4:02:27they're great, but we also have to think

4:02:28about like how do we clean up after

4:02:29them? That goes to the fruit question,

4:02:31but just goes to the leaf question. Um

4:02:33so, those are some of the thoughts that

4:02:34I have today.

4:02:36>> Yeah.

4:02:37Uh Robin?

4:02:38>> I have to say, I am a cyclist and I do

4:02:40know when there's walnut shells in the

4:02:43cycling path.

4:02:47>> I did just want to speak very briefly to

4:02:49the native question. Um so, within the

4:02:51new landscape manual, all of the trees

4:02:54that will be available for credit for

4:02:57uh street tree plantings are

4:03:00almost all native. I think there are one

4:03:02or two that are not, which is a major

4:03:03change. Um but they are not invasive.

4:03:06So, I know that one of them that is

4:03:07non-native is a ginkgo.

4:03:09Um but those do definitely have their

4:03:11maintenance issues as well. That part I

4:03:13don't speak to because planning doesn't

4:03:15maintain, but we certainly um give other

4:03:17people homework. So.

4:03:21>> I hear about that homework that was just

4:03:24shared.

4:03:26>> So, one thing that's really important

4:03:27and I'm very fortunate there's been

4:03:29people within this division that have

4:03:30been here for a long time. Um Alex and

4:03:33Kevin just being two of them.

4:03:35There's a lot of knowledge that and

4:03:36things we've learned. Um climate change

4:03:38and all that, you know, we are seeing

4:03:41different climate trends.

4:03:43The most important thing

4:03:45Sorry. The most important thing that I

4:03:46try to think about when we're deciding

4:03:48what do we plant where is

4:03:50what's going to survive? What's going to

4:03:51be I mean, we don't want to plant

4:03:53something if it's just going to die. I

4:03:54mean, like a good example was

4:03:56our state flower, the dogwood. I love

4:03:58it. There's a disease that's an

4:04:00anthracnose. They just

4:04:03and

4:04:03they they just they won't live. So, as

4:04:05nice as it would be for that moment you

4:04:07put in the ground, if it's going to be

4:04:08dead in a year, then it doesn't make

4:04:10sense. So, we don't plant anything

4:04:11invasive. We try to like Rob was saying

4:04:14as well, we try to really prioritize

4:04:16native plants as much as we can. But, if

4:04:18there is a tree that we can plant that's

4:04:20technically non-native, but it's not

4:04:22invasive, and it can do really well, it

4:04:24can have wildlife value, it can provide

4:04:27shade, all these benefits. Like an

4:04:29example was

4:04:30going back to the dogwood, there's a

4:04:31kousa dogwood which breeds with that

4:04:33disease, has the disease resistance, and

4:04:36can offer

4:04:37basically the the same wildlife value,

4:04:39human value, everything else, well then

4:04:41maybe we plant that instead. And we do

4:04:43try to communicate and like I said,

4:04:45collaborate as much as we can. Leaves

4:04:47are probably the number one issue that I

4:04:49have conversations with residents about,

4:04:51and there's not a great solution for it,

4:04:53unfortunately, but you know, we do look

4:04:55at areas and try to be, you know,

4:04:57cognizant of that.

4:05:00>> Thank you. Those are all my questions

4:05:02and comments. And again, thank you to

4:05:03staff. This is um you know, happy

4:05:05impressive work.

4:05:09>> Thank you.

4:05:10>> Thank you.

4:05:11>> That'll be it.

4:05:15And to all the urban foresters out

4:05:17there, just thank you all again for

4:05:19helping me uh

4:05:20I think it was my second on council

4:05:23on Oakland Oakland Avenue. Wow.

4:05:26But the neighbors had a standoff on who

4:05:28was going to take the attic share, who

4:05:29was it?

4:05:31I learned so much so much about it. All

4:05:34right, our final Well, we have two more

4:05:36items, but uh we have one more

4:05:38presentation.

4:05:40>> Right

4:05:41All right. Um good afternoon Mayor,

4:05:43Mayor Pro Tem, and members of Council.

4:05:45I'm Christina Reardon, um Budget and

4:05:47Management Services. Um so today I'm

4:05:49going to be walking you through the

4:05:50proposed budget development schedule for

4:05:52FY um 28, including the key milestones

4:05:56between now and budget adoption. Uh this

4:05:58is a new process for us than what we've

4:06:00done in the past. Um in previous years,

4:06:02the calendar has kind of just shown up

4:06:03on your agenda, uh but this year we

4:06:05wanted to provide you with a

4:06:06presentation. Um

4:06:08in addition to the budget calendar, I'm

4:06:10going to discuss how we're connecting

4:06:11the budget process with the newly

4:06:13adopted strategic plan.

4:06:15And um

4:06:17you know, we've you've re- recently

4:06:18adopted the plan, but um we have been

4:06:20working on an implementation um process,

4:06:22and that um

4:06:24we we want to uh

4:06:26establish um the priorities Council

4:06:28identified for the city, and the budget

4:06:30process as one of the primary ways that

4:06:31we can do that. So as we move through

4:06:33the budget cycle, we want to be

4:06:35intentional about how we allocate

4:06:36limited resources, what outcomes we

4:06:38expect to achieve, and how we measure

4:06:40progress towards the commitments we make

4:06:42for our community.

4:06:46Sorry about that.

4:06:48So um the proposed um budget calendar is

4:06:50going to be similar to the one you've

4:06:52seen in prior years, uh but we are

4:06:54working to strengthen the connection

4:06:55between the budget process and the

4:06:57strategic plan.

4:06:58Uh staff have developed a way to uh

4:07:00track implementation,

4:07:02and um we're going to talk a little bit

4:07:04about that. And today we're asking you

4:07:06um to approve the budget development

4:07:08schedule at your next Council meeting,

4:07:10and uh we want you to provide some

4:07:12guidance on the process for Council

4:07:14budget requests, um including how those

4:07:16budget requests are submitted. Um, we

4:07:19know that the city has many important

4:07:21needs and that we're not able to fund

4:07:22every request. The strategic plan, we

4:07:25believe, gives us a framework for

4:07:26considering those competing needs and

4:07:28identifying what investments can have

4:07:30the greatest impact towards advancing

4:07:32that plan.

4:07:33At the same time, the plan does not

4:07:35replace the city's other

4:07:37responsibilities. We continue to to need

4:07:39to meet essential services, um, meet our

4:07:42existing obligations, and respond to

4:07:44operational needs. So, the goal is to

4:07:47consider the those responsibilities

4:07:49alongside the priorities you've

4:07:50identified.

4:07:56So, I have

4:07:58I have three main areas that I want to

4:08:00cover today. Uh, the first, I'll walk

4:08:02you through the budget development

4:08:03calendar and the key dates leading up to

4:08:05adoption. Second, I'm going to review

4:08:08how the strategic plan connects to the

4:08:09budget decisions, including how we're

4:08:11tracking the implementation.

4:08:13And then, finally, I want to explain how

4:08:15Council can submit budget requests and

4:08:17discuss the process Council would like

4:08:19to use to provide guidance to staff on

4:08:22what ends up in the budget in the

4:08:23adopted budget.

4:08:26So, this is, um, the major milestones

4:08:29for, um, the budget calendar for FY28.

4:08:33Um, and it's taking us from November

4:08:35through budget adoption on June 21st.

4:08:38Um, in November, we're going to, um,

4:08:40start out the process with your first

4:08:42quarterly financial update. And then, in

4:08:44January, we move to Council budget

4:08:46requests.

4:08:48Um, these are early step steps to help

4:08:50establish financial context and ident-

4:08:53identify the proposals Council would

4:08:54like to consider.

4:08:56Included throughout this process will be

4:08:58opportunity for residents to be heard

4:09:00and share their feedback, including the

4:09:02upcoming community conversations, which

4:09:04are, um,

4:09:06uh, CP&E Department will be hosting this

4:09:08November.

4:09:10So, in February, Council will

4:09:12participate in two budget retreats,

4:09:14where they'll receive more information

4:09:15from staff as well as community input.

4:09:18These discussions are important because

4:09:19they help establish the budget

4:09:21guidelines that that the staff and city

4:09:23manager will use to develop his

4:09:24recommended budget.

4:09:26In March and April, we'll have the first

4:09:28of two um

4:09:30public hearings

4:09:32and adoption of the budget um

4:09:34development guidelines.

4:09:35In May, um the city manager will present

4:09:38his recommended budget followed by two

4:09:41day-long work sessions where Council

4:09:42receives more detailed information to

4:09:44answer any questions and discuss any

4:09:46changes they would like to see.

4:09:48Finally, in June, we have another

4:09:50opportunity to hear from the public with

4:09:52the second public hearing.

4:09:53There will be option to hold a third

4:09:55work session with the final budget and

4:09:57capital improvement plan being adopted

4:09:59on June 21st.

4:10:01Um throughout the process, staff will

4:10:02use the strategic plan to help inform

4:10:04our conversations about where to focus

4:10:06attention and how to evaluate competing

4:10:07proposals.

4:10:09So, and you have a more detailed

4:10:10calendar in your packet, but these are

4:10:12the dates that we are proposing for that

4:10:14budget calendar for FY28.

4:10:21So, I did want to briefly remind Council

4:10:23of the goals and priorities from the

4:10:24recently adopted strategic plan. Um as

4:10:27you remember, the plan establishes five

4:10:29goals and 14 priorities. The first goal

4:10:32is safe community, includes priorities

4:10:34such as reducing violence and supporting

4:10:36safe, positive opportunities for youth.

4:10:39Included in this um

4:10:41goal are would be the um upcoming

4:10:43violence reduction plan.

4:10:45Inclusive economic prosperity focuses on

4:10:48creating pathways to quality jobs and

4:10:50economic mobility, supporting small

4:10:52businesses and entrepreneurs, and

4:10:54expanding opportunities for wealth

4:10:56ownership. Um our Department of

4:11:00our Office of Economic and Workforce

4:11:01Development is working on currently

4:11:03working on an economic mobility plan um

4:11:06that will be part of this goal.

4:11:08High performing organization focuses on

4:11:11how the city delivers services and

4:11:12manages its resource. This includes

4:11:15competing completing infrastructure

4:11:17projects efficiently, maintaining a high

4:11:19performing workforce through competitive

4:11:22pay and benefits, and improving

4:11:23governmental efficiency and meaningful

4:11:25outcomes.

4:11:26So you can think about our pay and class

4:11:28study

4:11:29and the work some of the work we've been

4:11:30doing on CIP delivery.

4:11:35So the remaining two goals focus on

4:11:37built and natural environment and

4:11:39affordable accessible housing.

4:11:41A vibrant sustainable built and natural

4:11:44environment includes priorities such as

4:11:46encouraging affordable walkable bikeable

4:11:48neighborhoods, expanding access to

4:11:51parks, playgrounds, and greenways,

4:11:53improving transit, reducing emissions,

4:11:56and building infrastructure that is more

4:11:57resilient to heat and flooding.

4:12:00Affordable accessible housing focuses on

4:12:02promoting the construction and

4:12:04preservation of affordable housing while

4:12:06protecting residents from displacement,

4:12:08as well as improving outcomes for

4:12:10residents experiencing homeless

4:12:12homelessness.

4:12:13So two of the plans in this goal would

4:12:15be the affordable housing plan that is

4:12:17going to be coming forward to council

4:12:19and our homeless strategic framework.

4:12:22So as we consider budget requests, we'll

4:12:24be asking staff how a proposed

4:12:26investment supports one or more of these

4:12:28priorities,

4:12:30what outcomes it is intended to achieve,

4:12:33and how we will know whether it is

4:12:34making a difference.

4:12:36We want to create a connection between

4:12:37council's direction and the work

4:12:39departments carry out. Some of the work

4:12:41may require new investments, while other

4:12:43priorities may be advanced through

4:12:45existing programs,

4:12:47operational improvements, partnerships,

4:12:49or changes in how we deliver services.

4:12:52This distinction is important. Strategic

4:12:55alignment does not automatically mean

4:12:56that every priority requires a new

4:12:58budget request. It means we should

4:13:00understand how existing work contributes

4:13:02to the plan and where additional

4:13:03resources or different approaches may be

4:13:05needed.

4:13:08So, I want to move on to talk a little

4:13:10bit about um

4:13:12how we have been implementing the

4:13:14strategic plan. So, um

4:13:16when we adopted the strategic plan, we

4:13:18promised to develop a process for

4:13:20tracking progress and I wanted to share

4:13:22what we've been doing internally with

4:13:23you today.

4:13:24So, we worked with our executive team to

4:13:26divide initiatives into two tiers. So,

4:13:28tier one are initiatives are priorities

4:13:30that the city manager selected for more

4:13:32frequent review and leadership

4:13:34involvement.

4:13:35These initiatives report to the

4:13:36executive team every two months.

4:13:39They're um initiatives that need more

4:13:41decision-making by the leadership team.

4:13:44They include some of our bigger plans

4:13:45such as housing, economic mobility,

4:13:48violence reduction, and homelessness.

4:13:51Tier two initiatives are monitored

4:13:53through

4:13:53rotating monthly status updates

4:13:56involving our deputy and assistant city

4:13:58managers and department directors.

4:14:01These initiatives are not less

4:14:02important, but we expect them to need

4:14:04less leadership involvement to be

4:14:06successful.

4:14:07If an initiative encounters a

4:14:08significant barrier, misses a milestone,

4:14:11or needs a timeline adjustment, it can

4:14:13be elevated to that tier one for

4:14:15additional attention.

4:14:18We also will be updating our public

4:14:19dashboard twice a year so council and

4:14:21residents can see which initiatives are

4:14:23on track, delayed, or completed.

4:14:26Uh the purpose of this, you know,

4:14:28process is not simply to track activity.

4:14:30It's to help us identify barriers,

4:14:32understand where we're making progress,

4:14:34and determine where leadership decisions

4:14:36or adjustments are needed.

4:14:38Um the information can also inform

4:14:40future budget um discussions. For

4:14:43example, if an initiative is delayed

4:14:45because of a resource constraint or an

4:14:46unexpected operational change,

4:14:49that information can help us

4:14:51um have a more informed conversation and

4:14:53next steps.

4:14:58So, uh this slide is a snapshot of kind

4:15:01of our annual um strategic uh

4:15:04plan implementation calendar.

4:15:06Um and what it looks like on an annual

4:15:08cycle with the different stakeholder

4:15:10groups involved in the process. I want

4:15:12to make note that this um does include

4:15:15um a bi-annual progress update to the

4:15:17council on our strategic plan. Um but

4:15:20those will not probably be the only

4:15:22times you hear about strategic plan um

4:15:24priorities. Um a lot of them come before

4:15:27you at your regular work session, and we

4:15:28expect that to continue as well.

4:15:32In addition to the strategic plan

4:15:33implementation process, I also want to

4:15:35provide a brief update on a related

4:15:38effort currently underway as part of the

4:15:39strategic plan, which is the citywide

4:15:42program evaluation process.

4:15:44So, this The purpose of this work is to

4:15:46develop a more systematic process to

4:15:48evaluate the effectiveness of city

4:15:50programs to ensure public dollars are

4:15:52invested in services that achieve their

4:15:54intended outcomes and strengthen

4:15:56governmental accountability.

4:15:58We are currently working on the first of

4:16:00two steps. The first is developing a

4:16:02comp- a comprehensive inventory of city

4:16:04programs to better understand the range

4:16:07of programs across the city.

4:16:09And then the second step is developing a

4:16:11program evaluation framework that

4:16:13establishes a consistent approach for

4:16:15evaluating programs and understanding

4:16:18their outcomes.

4:16:20And so, we expect to be using that um

4:16:22and inform that helping that to inform

4:16:24decisions about how we deliver um and

4:16:27use city resources.

4:16:31Um so, one thing we did want to stress

4:16:33is um I think you all know the

4:16:34importance of the strategic plan, but we

4:16:36wanted to um talk about why we think

4:16:38it's important to use it as part of the

4:16:40budget process.

4:16:41Um so, there are four uh key reasons to

4:16:44connect uh the strategic plan to the

4:16:46budget process.

4:16:48Uh the first is council established the

4:16:50strategic priorities in the plan.

4:16:53Requests that advance those priorities

4:16:55will receive additional weight in the

4:16:56evaluation process, which helps ensure

4:16:59that the direction that council has

4:17:00given us is reflected in the way that we

4:17:02consider new investments.

4:17:04Um second, the plan helps guide

4:17:06investment of limited resources. Uh we

4:17:09understand that the city has many

4:17:10important needs, and we have met have to

4:17:12make many hard choices.

4:17:14Strategic alignment gives us a

4:17:16consistent way to assess competing

4:17:18proposals alongside costs, operational

4:17:21requirements, and available funding.

4:17:23Uh third, city council requests and

4:17:25departmental requests will be linked to

4:17:27the strategic plan. Uh at least that's

4:17:29our hope, and these create a common

4:17:31framework for evaluating proposals.

4:17:35Finally, the help the the plan helps us

4:17:37deliver on our commitments um by

4:17:40connecting funding decisions to specific

4:17:42priorities and expected outcomes, we can

4:17:44better understand whether investments

4:17:46are helping us make progress.

4:17:52Okay.

4:17:53So, um once again, we will be asking

4:17:55council um

4:17:57to submit their budget requests. Um we

4:18:00have proposed the date of January 15th

4:18:02as the due date for that uh process.

4:18:05And I wanted to spend some time on what

4:18:07information um we will be requesting on

4:18:09the form, so that everyone is ready for

4:18:11the process. Uh we intend to use the

4:18:13forms similar to the ones that we've

4:18:15used in the past, and make those forms

4:18:17um you know, once you fill them out to

4:18:18all council members.

4:18:20Uh the form will ask for request name

4:18:22and a brief description, whether the

4:18:24request is one-time or reoccurring, and

4:18:27whether it involves a new service or

4:18:29expansion of an existing one.

4:18:32Um it will also ask for more detail

4:18:33about whether what the request will

4:18:36would fund, what's it intended to

4:18:38achieve, any staffing or equipment

4:18:40needed, and the expected cost or

4:18:42revenues.

4:18:44One particularly important section asks

4:18:46which strategic plan priority or other

4:18:49adopted plan. We also realize that there

4:18:51are plans that the council has adopted

4:18:53besides the strategic plan, but kind of

4:18:54tying them to an adopted plan of the

4:18:56council um and how it advances that

4:18:59priority.

4:19:01Um we'll encourage requests to be as

4:19:02specific as possible about the outcomes

4:19:04council would like to see. This gives

4:19:06your colleagues a clearer understanding

4:19:08of the purpose of the request and helps

4:19:10address its potential impact.

4:19:12We also recognize that developing cost

4:19:14estimates can be challenging,

4:19:16particularly when a request involves

4:19:18multiple departments or a new service.

4:19:20Um our budget staff um will try and work

4:19:23with council and departments to help

4:19:25develop the information needed. Um but

4:19:27again, having real specifics about your

4:19:30request is is kind of the best way that

4:19:32we can help give you the estimates that

4:19:34you would like.

4:19:35Um finally, we're going to ask we would

4:19:37like to ask council members to limit

4:19:39submissions to three requests. This is

4:19:41something we did in last year's process

4:19:43and we we would like to continue that um

4:19:45in the next year.

4:19:48So, kind of talking up about um what is

4:19:51the kind of uh

4:19:54uh what a strong request would look

4:19:55like. Um this is we kind of provided an

4:19:59example here um

4:20:01to kind of illustrate the difference

4:20:03between a general request and one that

4:20:05provides enough information to evaluate

4:20:08its potential impact. So, a request to

4:20:10fund more youth programs it it

4:20:13identifies a broad need, but it doesn't

4:20:15really tell you what the funding would

4:20:17support, how many young people might

4:20:19benefit, what outcomes are expected, and

4:20:22how much the proposal would cost. So, on

4:20:24the the right you'll see a stronger

4:20:26request which would identify specific

4:20:28actions such as expanding a summer

4:20:30enrichment program for youth facing

4:20:32barriers at a defined number of

4:20:34recreation centers.

4:20:36Um it connects those actions to the um

4:20:39strategic plan goal and priority, and it

4:20:42identifies outcomes such as serving

4:20:44additional youth and tracking

4:20:45participation and completion.

4:20:48And it also includes um we would expect

4:20:50it an estimate of cost

4:20:52um with the appropriate department.

4:20:54So, the details here are just kind of an

4:20:56example, um but the principle I wanted

4:20:59to kind of make with this is that the

4:21:00clearer the request is and the easier to

4:21:02understand, um the easier it is to

4:21:05evaluate and help colleagues determine

4:21:07if it's um

4:21:09something that merits inclusion in the

4:21:10city's budget.

4:21:14So, my final slide is kind of talking

4:21:15about the next steps. Um the January

4:21:1815th um in the budget process would be

4:21:20the next step for council budget

4:21:21requests. Um we will be asking you to

4:21:24approve this at the November 2nd, and so

4:21:27I do want to provide an opportunity for

4:21:29you to provide me any guidance on the

4:21:30process, um both about the the calendar

4:21:33itself and then the kind of process for

4:21:35council budget requests. Um you know,

4:21:37our goal here is to have a a transparent

4:21:40and clear budget process um that

4:21:42connects the priorities that you have

4:21:43established in our strategic plan and

4:21:45helps staff to implement them. So, I

4:21:47will pause here to

4:21:49find out if there are any questions.

4:21:55>> Thank you. Um

4:21:57Thanks for the laying this out. I uh

4:22:00And I do want to like restate what I

4:22:02stated last time, which I felt like the

4:22:03ranking that we did was really useful.

4:22:06Okay. Um so, just adding throwing that

4:22:08out there. Um

4:22:10I one thing that I think has come up for

4:22:12me uh several times in doing this is

4:22:14that I often do not know how much the

4:22:17thing will cost, and I am wondering if

4:22:19like we could have things submitted by

4:22:21January 10th and we could get staff

4:22:23feedback or have a conversation or if

4:22:26there's like

4:22:27y'all want us to work that in

4:22:28beforehand. January 15th is early, I

4:22:31will say, and it's also like

4:22:33um and I know that staff is getting

4:22:34their requests in early, too, but it's

4:22:36like community is like oh, we have until

4:22:39June for the budget, right? And so like

4:22:40people are just sort of getting it

4:22:42together in January and it's like a lot

4:22:44to ask of folks to like have their

4:22:46requests in and then like for us to be

4:22:48able to like

4:22:49schedule time to meet with different

4:22:51departments and like assess

4:22:54amounts. I don't know. It just it feels

4:22:56like a big task and I would love to

4:22:58present you with something that's more

4:22:59useful than like to be determined, which

4:23:01I saw was in your bad example, but like

4:23:03often that is I feel like what I have to

4:23:05end up doing because it's like it's come

4:23:07to me sort of at the last minute and I

4:23:08like I don't know how to assess the

4:23:10cost. So I'm just wondering if you have

4:23:12thoughts about that.

4:23:13>> think that's why I did want to we we we

4:23:15would be willing to offer some help with

4:23:17that. I think it does help though the

4:23:19more specific that you can be about your

4:23:20idea and then we can kind of connect you

4:23:22with the the

4:23:24maybe the department that it might

4:23:26live in or you know, someone else who

4:23:28might have some expertise in costing out

4:23:30something out.

4:23:30>> Okay, so the January 15th sort of works

4:23:32all of that in there. There would be

4:23:34room potentially afterwards to still

4:23:36like have that conversation or you want

4:23:37us to do it before January 15th?

4:23:39>> I'm going to I'm going to ideally this

4:23:40is council's process. So you know,

4:23:43I I realize that how prescriptive I am,

4:23:46but I

4:23:47would obviously love to have it as early

4:23:49as possible because we are trying to

4:23:51prepare for your February retreat. So

4:23:52what we are trying to get to is make

4:23:54sure that all your colleagues have all

4:23:55the information that they need and that

4:23:57we've prepared for the discussion that

4:24:00you want to have at those retreats. So

4:24:01that's what I'm trying to work back from

4:24:04and then if there are any questions and

4:24:05we have to go back that's kind of what

4:24:08the earlier the better is what I'll just

4:24:09say.

4:24:10>> Yeah, I mean and ideally we're working

4:24:11on it now,

4:24:13but the truth of the matter is that it's

4:24:15about to be the holidays and then it's

4:24:17going to be New Year's [clears throat]

4:24:18and then we have

4:24:20ostensibly like two weeks to do it. So

4:24:23it just [clears throat] anyway, I'm just

4:24:24I'm naming that like it does feel rushed

4:24:27and I get why it is. I think you're

4:24:28right to ask us for it early and just

4:24:30the complications on our end.

4:24:36Thank you. Um

4:24:38I am letting my boards and commissions

4:24:40know at each now and I've been doing

4:24:43that for a minute because we we've kind

4:24:45of stuck to that mid-January date for a

4:24:47number of years. I'm open to having a

4:24:50different conversation, but so if you're

4:24:53if you're on a board or commission and

4:24:55you know that there's going to be a

4:24:56budget ask, I'm already flagging for

4:24:57folks meet with me before our holiday

4:24:59break so that I know going into the new

4:25:01year what they might be. So that's just

4:25:04an advice to colleagues. Um

4:25:06It it it does make it a little tricky

4:25:08cuz I know this time of year can get

4:25:09busy,

4:25:10but um

4:25:12I found that to be very helpful and I'm

4:25:14giving the especially the chair and the

4:25:15vice chair of each board and commission

4:25:17that opportunity like, "Hey, talk to

4:25:18your folks. It doesn't have to be a

4:25:20whole group of folks. I know it gets

4:25:21hard to coordinate." And just have that

4:25:23conversation. Um I'm going to throw a

4:25:26huge wrench in it uh council colleagues

4:25:29and I apologize. I will not be here that

4:25:31week of May that we normally have our

4:25:33budget work sessions. My nephew is

4:25:35graduating and I'm not missing that.

4:25:37I've missed many family gatherings in

4:25:38May over the years um to do these budget

4:25:41work sessions and that's

4:25:43>> Is that the the May 25th, 26th?

4:25:45>> Yeah, and I will say that sometimes it's

4:25:47very straightforward and those budget

4:25:50sessions work sessions are just kind of

4:25:52tying a bow on thing that is

4:25:55we've we've known since February and

4:25:57there have been other budget years like

4:25:58last year where we are doing some

4:26:00serious work in those budget work

4:26:01sessions and so um happy to get excused

4:26:05absences or happy to have conversations

4:26:08with you individually ahead of um

4:26:11um when we have to adopt it, but I

4:26:13wanted to be very transparent from the

4:26:14beginning that I'm not missing family

4:26:17stuff again.

4:26:21>> Maybe we can deal with it as we get

4:26:22closer, but I'd like all council members

4:26:24to be at the budget meetings.

4:26:25>> We just have to adopt the schedule on

4:26:26November 3rd. That's the ask of us. So,

4:26:29um I just [clears throat] didn't want to

4:26:31miss that opportunity to go ahead and

4:26:33state it very publicly and very ahead of

4:26:35time.

4:26:36>> Yeah, if you would if you want us to

4:26:37bring back other alternatives, you would

4:26:39just have to let us know before the the

4:26:41>> Yeah, based on the available dates

4:26:43provided,

4:26:44colleagues that we can let staff know

4:26:47what dates we If you're going to miss a

4:26:49date, maybe they can work around that.

4:26:52So, we'll do that.

4:26:55Any other comments? Council member

4:26:57Harris.

4:26:58>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Just a couple of

4:26:59questions. So, just on the on the

4:27:00strategic plan stuff. So, I went online

4:27:03quickly. Is the dashboard now

4:27:05operational or is it still to be sort of

4:27:06like

4:27:07>> No, we are working

4:27:08>> Yeah, we're working on the dashboard cuz

4:27:10we've just started implementation. So,

4:27:12I'm going to turn to my strategic Do you

4:27:14have a date? Do we have a date

4:27:15specifically? We're still working on on

4:27:17developing the dashboard. So,

4:27:18>> first part of 2027. Do you want to come

4:27:21up to the

4:27:23Sherry McCaffery Strategic Initiatives

4:27:25Manager. We're currently working on it

4:27:27now. We hope to have it go live in the

4:27:29earlier part of 2027.

4:27:32So, we just changed I think we just

4:27:33added a date on our website actually

4:27:35this week. So,

4:27:37>> Great. And then that other thing is on

4:27:38the on the the timeline you showed us,

4:27:42it shows that it shows coming back to

4:27:43the council for a biennial update like

4:27:44nowish. So, is that going to happen

4:27:46sometime this fall or when's that update

4:27:48going to

4:27:48>> This would cuz we've just started

4:27:50implementation, this is kind of your

4:27:51first update and then we will have

4:27:53another when we've had more time to do

4:27:55some implementation. We'll probably

4:27:56we'll bring something back to the

4:27:58probably to the February retreats.

4:28:00That's not to say that you won't see

4:28:01anything on the strategic plan that that

4:28:04is being implemented. You know, you have

4:28:05a housing plan coming. You had you've

4:28:07had stuff come forward, but we will be

4:28:09providing you what our implementation

4:28:11looks like and where we are with stuff.

4:28:14You know, we're just getting started

4:28:15with that piece of it. So,

4:28:17I wanted to introduce you to the concept

4:28:19of what what doing with it and then

4:28:21we'll be providing you with an update um

4:28:23in that time frame. But you would expect

4:28:25we going forward we will have a more

4:28:27formal

4:28:27>> formal Okay, got

4:28:28>> Yes, exactly. Twice a year we will come

4:28:30to you.

4:28:30>> Okay. And last question, as I know that

4:28:31obviously like we are we don't over

4:28:33share, but we're probably looking at

4:28:34another tight budget year.

4:28:36Um I just want to

4:28:38understand so that the limit to three

4:28:40requests, is that from staff, the

4:28:41manager, the mayor? Like where's that

4:28:43coming from just I'm clear.

4:28:44>> Uh yes, so you know, I think that what

4:28:47we had heard was that you know, an

4:28:48overwhelming number of requests is hard

4:28:50for you You all This is your process, so

4:28:52you all are evaluating these and kind of

4:28:54providing guidance to uh the city

4:28:56manager. So last year we had a limit of

4:28:58three, and so this is we were just

4:28:59proposing to kind of keep that as well,

4:29:01too. I mean that is um up to the

4:29:03council.

4:29:04>> Uh-huh. Makes sense.

4:29:08Okay, the mayor's saying I'm I'm I'm I'm

4:29:10happy to stick with that. Got you.

4:29:12>> That just real quick, the the May city

4:29:14manager presents recommended budget,

4:29:15that should be May 17th.

4:29:17Cuz that's the Monday.

4:29:19May 18th in 2027.

4:29:22>> Um and I believe that that is the new I

4:29:25think I looked at the new council

4:29:26schedule, and I believe that that date

4:29:28that it is May 18th and not May 17th.

4:29:32I I believe that there's a change in

4:29:34your schedule because of a a holiday or

4:29:36something like that.

4:29:38But we can confirm that.

4:29:41>> Okay.

4:29:48>> Mary Grace Stone King, city manager's

4:29:50office. Um we can provide why it's on

4:29:54the 18th, um but if y'all remember we

4:29:56were asked to accommodate a lot some

4:29:59more holidays that we haven't in the

4:30:00past. Um so I don't have if that was

4:30:04related to a specific holiday why we

4:30:06have it on the 18th. That is why it's

4:30:08currently, but um

4:30:10in our follow-up materials for the um

4:30:14November 2nd city council meeting, we

4:30:17can more specifically

4:30:19state why that one's on the um May 18th.

4:30:32>> I thought we made an exception for just

4:30:34the one instance and we didn't like do

4:30:36the entirety of it. Well, cuz I I'm

4:30:38Googling like what holiday is that

4:30:39honestly?

4:30:42>> So, we were asked to accommodate for um

4:30:45holidays for

4:30:47um

4:30:48uh Eid and also uh Ramadan and other um

4:30:53high holidays for um

4:30:56the Jewish religion. So,

4:30:59um I

4:31:00believe that might be Eid. Um is it the

4:31:03time of year? Just the time of year is

4:31:05usually in spring. Um but again, I'll

4:31:08double-check and provide that in

4:31:10follow-up materials.

4:31:12>> Okay.

4:31:20>> All right.

4:31:22Thank you.

4:31:22>> Thank you.

4:31:24>> Everything Everybody's all good?

4:31:27Okay.

4:31:27>> [clears throat]

4:31:27>> So, we'll get We'll make sure those

4:31:28dates align. Council members, if you

4:31:30have conflicts like Mayor Pro Tem does,

4:31:31just make sure we

4:31:33uh provide that over so we can make sure

4:31:36everyone is here.

4:31:40>> Okay. Thank you.

4:31:41>> Yeah.

4:31:41And I'll do the same considering that I

4:31:43and that's our last presentation. We

4:31:46have one other matter two other matters.

4:31:48One, I have to request another excused

4:31:50absence.

4:31:52For What is it?

4:31:53>> November 2nd.

4:31:55>> Second and

4:31:55>> And you have November 5th. Yeah.

4:31:57>> November 2nd and 5th. I'll be gone that

4:31:59week.

4:32:00>> Second.

4:32:02All in favor?

4:32:03>> Aye.

4:32:03>> Any opposed?

4:32:04>> Thank you.

4:32:05>> Okay. Uh motion carries for excused

4:32:08absence for the mayor on Monday,

4:32:09November 2nd and Thursday, November 5th.

4:32:12>> All right, I'll bring you back good

4:32:13news, folks.

4:32:15All right, um

4:32:17yeah.

4:32:17>> I'm just going to go ahead and

4:32:19ask for it. I need I'll need an excused

4:32:20absence as well for the work session on

4:32:22November 19th.

4:32:27>> All right, all in favor of the motion to

4:32:29excuse Councilmember Cook from November

4:32:3119th. All in favor?

4:32:33>> I.

4:32:34>> All opposed?

4:32:35Oh, did you

4:32:36>> So moved.

4:32:36>> I'll I'll move that.

4:32:37>> Second.

4:32:39>> Sorry.

4:32:40It's right in front of me now. Moved and

4:32:41a second.

4:32:42Uh and passed. All right, you have one.

4:32:45>> I'll need an excused absence also for

4:32:47November 19th as I'll be traveling to

4:32:48the National League of Cities

4:32:49Convention.

4:32:50>> Oh, crap.

4:32:51>> Oh, do we have quorum for that?

4:32:52>> not have quorum. I won't be here for

4:32:54that either.

4:32:55>> You're going to?

4:32:56>> Yeah.

4:32:56>> Mr. Mayor, is there Well, we have

4:32:58quorum, but we have to verify with

4:32:59Councilmember Kopac because otherwise we

4:33:01don't have quorum cuz we're missing

4:33:02three now on November 19th.

4:33:07>> Yeah.

4:33:07>> Who's the third?

4:33:09>> Councilmember Cook, Councilmember

4:33:10Burris, and the mayor are all gone on

4:33:12>> Councilmember Burris, aren't you going

4:33:14as well?

4:33:15>> NLC.

4:33:15>> Cuz you're you're you're the rep the rep

4:33:17for

4:33:18>> No, you're thinking of League of

4:33:18Municipalities, not National League of

4:33:20Cities.

4:33:21>> Right, it's the chapter though.

4:33:23>> And I'm not planning on going to the

4:33:24NLC.

4:33:25>> All right.

4:33:27So you you're going to be there?

4:33:28>> I will.

4:33:28>> Councilmember Burris

4:33:29>> Councilmember Burris and Councilmember

4:33:30Book Cook has asked for an excused

4:33:32absence, so we just need to make sure

4:33:33that Councilmember Burris, Baker,

4:33:34myself, you Councilmember Burris, and

4:33:35Councilmember Kopac will be here.

4:33:37Otherwise, we do not have quorum on

4:33:38Thursday, November 19th.

4:33:41>> All right.

4:33:43I request this an excused absence for

4:33:45this been on

4:33:47Yeah, I'll entertain a motion to accept

4:33:50an excused absence on the 19th for

4:33:52myself and Councilmember Burris.

4:33:55>> So moved.

4:33:55>> Second.

4:33:56>> I moved it properly second it.

4:33:58All right, all in favor? All

4:34:01All opposed, thank you.

4:34:02>> I do want to flag that we had

4:34:06a planned presentation on the 19th

4:34:09or a fairly significant conversation

4:34:11with the council that I think we had

4:34:13been previewing for the council. This is

4:34:15where our consultant for the

4:34:17paying comp study was going to come

4:34:19before council and engage you in a

4:34:20number of key conversations that council

4:34:23has expressed interest in before.

4:34:25We will look at options, but I can't

4:34:28make any promises about whether or not

4:34:30we can reschedule that. Certainly I want

4:34:32you know that the intent of that is to

4:34:34get your feedback. At the same time, we

4:34:37are on a pretty tight schedule because

4:34:38we are trying to get recommendations

4:34:39that we can incorporate into this year's

4:34:41budget cycle. So, we will take a hard

4:34:43look at that and do what we can. I do

4:34:46want to just own that there may be some

4:34:48push-pull there in terms of what we're

4:34:50able to to advance in time for the

4:34:53budget work session if we do have to

4:34:55slide that back. I don't think there's

4:34:57any possibility of sliding it forward,

4:34:58but we'll we'll take a look at that.

4:35:00Just wanted to flag it as something

4:35:02that'll come up given the number of

4:35:03absences that day.

4:35:05>> Thank you. If we need to entertain a

4:35:07special meeting, um

4:35:09I'd entertain that. Yeah, go ahead.

4:35:12>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Or if we need to

4:35:14do small group ahead of time

4:35:16virtual with the council members who

4:35:17aren't going to be able to be there. I

4:35:19don't know if that's an option. I just

4:35:20wanted to say that maybe what we have to

4:35:21do.

4:35:22>> Yeah.

4:35:23Just let me know.

4:35:25Okay, there was something before other

4:35:27matters. I don't remember what it was.

4:35:29Oh, um

4:35:32Yes, encampment policy. Um

4:35:38>> [clears throat]

4:35:40>> Thank you. So, at at the end of the

4:35:44previous work session, we were asked if

4:35:47we could estimate when we would about

4:35:50what time we think staff would be

4:35:53coming back to council with the proposed

4:35:55policy if if there was no

4:35:57um

4:35:59council discussion that got out ahead of

4:36:00that. I did confer with the community

4:36:03safety director, Ryan Smith. Uh

4:36:06we believe that our time frame would be

4:36:08that we would be back in front of the

4:36:10council at the beginning of 2027. So,

4:36:12that would I would at this time not want

4:36:14to commit specifically to January, but I

4:36:17would say as as early in January as we

4:36:19felt prepared to bring that forward.

4:36:21Um that's when we think it would align

4:36:24with the the rest of the kind of early

4:36:26stage implementation of the strategic

4:36:29plan the council has adopted. As we

4:36:31stated last time, and I've stated a few

4:36:33times today, if if council does give us

4:36:35direction before then, we will do our

4:36:36best to implement that direction, but

4:36:38left to our own devices, that's the

4:36:40timeline that we would be on.

4:36:47>> You brought the original matter, so I

4:36:49just wanted to

4:36:51ask if you had any

4:36:53>> Yeah, I I have a policy, but I don't

4:36:55have votes. And so, I think the

4:36:58the next best thing is

4:37:03you all have the draft, so

4:37:05um

4:37:06it's not your cup of tea, then we won't

4:37:08move forward, and we can wait on the

4:37:10staff draft.

4:37:12>> Uh just what I was getting at earlier,

4:37:14my understanding

4:37:16when we passed the budget last year, one

4:37:18of the items in that budget was an

4:37:20encampment

4:37:22plan or a policy. It was not formed out

4:37:24yet, but it was an intent for staff to

4:37:27come up with one. And I was just trying

4:37:29to make sure that

4:37:31we were not duplicating what staff was

4:37:33already working on, and more so for us

4:37:35to take any ideas, whether it was a

4:37:36written out policy drafted uh like

4:37:39council member um Baker did, or if it

4:37:42was just a few ideas, but to provide

4:37:44that to staff. And so, when they would

4:37:46bring that to us for consideration, it

4:37:48would be a

4:37:49uh uh

4:37:50you know, a

4:37:52everyone would have

4:37:54contributed to it.

4:37:55Uh I personally didn't feel comfortable,

4:37:57and I wouldn't even do this it's just me

4:37:59as mayor having one document that we're

4:38:01considering for the entire council.

4:38:04Uh, so that's just what I was

4:38:05requesting.

4:38:08Yeah, go ahead.

4:38:10>> Oh, my gosh. Um,

4:38:12I'm happy to wait on that timeline. I

4:38:14just but I do want to make sure that all

4:38:16of the research and cuz I also think

4:38:17that we could get it as a as a policy as

4:38:20opposed to a resolution. It might even

4:38:22be stronger. I do not want the research

4:38:24that's already been done to go to waste

4:38:26and I also want to ensure that we're

4:38:28we are doing a harm reduction

4:38:31value statement as as part of that

4:38:34policy. I want to make sure that we're

4:38:35like looking at harm reduction and also

4:38:38the rights of people who are unhoused.

4:38:40Um, I know that this is like a really

4:38:42fraught issue but these are like folks

4:38:44who are

4:38:46they experience the brunt of all of the

4:38:48statistics, right? Like they are more

4:38:50likely to be incarcerated. They're more

4:38:52likely to have major health issues.

4:38:53They're more likely to have all of these

4:38:54like many of issues and I want to make

4:38:56sure that we are centering them and

4:38:58focusing on them and ensuring that

4:38:59they're safe in our policy. So it is

4:39:01fine for me as long as the work that

4:39:03council member Baker has done and also

4:39:05that the community has done and their

4:39:07feedback on that draft um, is considered

4:39:09by staff and so I just want to make sure

4:39:11that that's

4:39:12um, sort of

4:39:13on in the in the focus of that draft.

4:39:16>> and I don't agree with that. I

4:39:17don't want to disagree with that at all.

4:39:19I I I just want to make sure that

4:39:21everyone

4:39:22has an opportunity to provide whatever

4:39:24feedback they can to staff. Um, because

4:39:28what

4:39:29it it can be really easy to have one

4:39:31sided approaches to this and I and I

4:39:33want to make sure like you're going to

4:39:34hear in my approach the same thing you

4:39:35just said but at the same time ensuring

4:39:37that we're curbing the balance or the

4:39:39the wrongdoings that are happening

4:39:41again. I want to be able to talk about

4:39:42more than just people in the encampment

4:39:44but the effect around the encampment.

4:39:47The the policy has to be really holistic

4:39:48for me and that's what's in my feedback.

4:39:51Um, if I had not given that to staff or

4:39:54have not, then we're only considering

4:39:55just one one person. What I'm saying is

4:39:58I just want to make sure everyone is

4:39:59happening. And also it you know, we

4:40:02could be talking about just a matter of

4:40:03timing here

4:40:05when it's going to come and I know

4:40:07>> [clears throat]

4:40:08>> just at least I'm hearing at least I may

4:40:10be hearing things, but I could have

4:40:11sworn that staff said this is just this

4:40:13is a part of it and maybe we're talking

4:40:15about expediting it or bringing it

4:40:16earlier.

4:40:17We just did the violent crime reduction

4:40:19summit. I want that tomorrow.

4:40:22And I can come up with a policy to say,

4:40:23"Hey, this is what it is." But is that

4:40:26realistic? Uh, so I just want to make

4:40:28sure that, you know,

4:40:29earlier I was making sure we're not

4:40:31duplicating anything and but the biggest

4:40:33thing is making sure that everyone had a

4:40:34chance to give feedback.

4:40:36And and so we're talking about the

4:40:37timeline. Staff, if you all can make it

4:40:39happen sooner, even better.

4:40:41But I do want to make sure it's um

4:40:43everybody has contributed. Go ahead.

4:40:45>> Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Yeah, and I

4:40:46appreciate comments from Council member

4:40:47Cook. This is serious stuff. I I agree

4:40:49100%. Um, and I appreciate Council

4:40:51member Baker for bringing forward the

4:40:52resolution. We have a variety of ways to

4:40:54provide input to the manager. We can

4:40:56provide that one-on-one. It could be in

4:40:57the form of resolution if we choose to.

4:40:59Can be in meetings like this. So I think

4:41:01we take advantage of all those. I'll I'm

4:41:03happy to share my comments with the

4:41:04manager, but I do on this one I think

4:41:06this is and I also think sometimes we do

4:41:08resolutions on sort of larger matters of

4:41:09national interest. But this is the one

4:41:11this is a policy we've said we wanted to

4:41:12do with the homeless framework and so

4:41:14I'm happy to like let the staff take the

4:41:16first crack at this with input from us

4:41:18and come back to us with a draft policy.

4:41:19So, happy with that procedure. And the

4:41:22timeline sounds good to me.

4:41:26>> All right. Deal, go ahead.

4:41:28>> So, like just as I believe the city

4:41:30manager stated last meeting, um, I'm

4:41:32okay with like the timeline, but are we

4:41:34okay with if they come out with a policy

4:41:36that we can't implement? Would that just

4:41:37not be shooting ourselves in the foot at

4:41:38that point? So, it's like what are we

4:41:41like really going to do cuz we're going

4:41:42to be we're going to have a new budget

4:41:44starting over in like what, July? So, we

4:41:47want to have something on the books, but

4:41:48you can't do anything with it. So, we'll

4:41:50just be in the same situation. So, are

4:41:51you guys okay with that?

4:41:53>> Like if staff comes back with a policy

4:41:55and we don't like it.

4:41:56>> Well, because you requested that in the

4:41:58policy, your draft version that we

4:42:00provide storage units for. And so, we

4:42:01have to figure out like where the

4:42:02money's going to come from or just like

4:42:04the capacity issue. So, I'm just like,

4:42:06are you going And we're midpoint during

4:42:08the budget, so I don't know how to like

4:42:09the reallocation will work, but would

4:42:10you be okay if like they come back like,

4:42:12"Hey, we can do this, but we don't have

4:42:13money for it." So, you're going to still

4:42:14be in the same situation then, right?

4:42:20>> Uh no, no. The The intent was always

4:42:22that there would be time for staff to be

4:42:25able to provide input. So, if there was

4:42:27something in the policy, of course, that

4:42:30was not feasible to be implemented, it

4:42:33wouldn't be part of the policy We would

4:42:35take it out of the policy.

4:42:37>> Okay. And I'm just I've already

4:42:38expressed how I felt about the origin of

4:42:40this last time, so I'm not going to

4:42:41relitigate that. So, I'm more than happy

4:42:43to wait for staff to come

4:42:45um with a policy that hopefully address

4:42:46this and then hopefully we can move

4:42:48forward, but I do want to um state that

4:42:50we need to I would hope that in the

4:42:52interim that you would meet with people

4:42:53who are not in your immediate orbit,

4:42:55particularly these people who are in

4:42:56communities, and hear their sides of the

4:42:58stories. And so, maybe that would help

4:43:01create a comprehensive outlook or

4:43:02approach um cuz I think that in Camp was

4:43:05like on the the line of Ward 1 and Ward

4:43:073. And neighbors want to hear and talk

4:43:09to you about this before we come back.

4:43:11So, I would hope that folks would dig in

4:43:12a little bit more

4:43:14um in the interim.

4:43:19>> Yeah, I mean, I guess the only thing

4:43:20that I'm thinking of now is that if

4:43:22there is going to be a budgetary

4:43:24restriction, that we probably will need

4:43:27at least like a heads-up from the from

4:43:29staff a little bit earlier if you all

4:43:30are sort of in in development. Because

4:43:32if we would then need to make a request

4:43:35around it or if someone wanted to do so,

4:43:37we're going to be past our submission

4:43:39dates, so.

4:43:40Just another sort of complication.

4:43:47>> Yeah, I just want to say that I

4:43:50think that staff are going to do their

4:43:52jobs. They have Councilmember Baker's

4:43:54very thorough um

4:43:56uh

4:43:57idea. Um they can incorporate the parts

4:44:00that they feel they can actually

4:44:01achieve.

4:44:02Uh I think that that's going to come

4:44:04forward with any budget ask period. Just

4:44:07we had a strategic framework that we

4:44:09adopted. There's going to be additional

4:44:11things that we have to think about and

4:44:12wrestle with.

4:44:14And I want to give um

4:44:16them

4:44:17the the grace that they need so that we

4:44:20can actually implement things

4:44:21effectively um and and actually meet the

4:44:23need.

4:44:24Um and I understand that that's

4:44:26challenging and I understand that that

4:44:28is hard. Um we have we have a crisis,

4:44:31but I I want to remind folks of the

4:44:33excellent email that we've received last

4:44:35week around our housing sprints and some

4:44:38of the successes that we've seen there.

4:44:40And I know the mayor's been highlighting

4:44:41them

4:44:42often during his Monday night meeting

4:44:44comments. And so

4:44:46uh

4:44:47we are doing really incredible work, uh

4:44:50really hard work. And I want to give uh

4:44:52our staff, very highly effective and

4:44:55competent staff,

4:44:56the grace and time to bring back

4:44:58something that we can

4:44:59um be proud of, that meets our needs,

4:45:02and that residents can understand the

4:45:04kind of how and why.

4:45:07>> If I can, I I just wanted to respond

4:45:09that um I do I do want to address the

4:45:11budgetary concern and say I I do think

4:45:14the my expectation is staff will bring a

4:45:17policy

4:45:19written and matched towards what we

4:45:21believe we can effectively enforce. If

4:45:24that if that policy falls short of any

4:45:28expectations or goals and that is

4:45:31budgetarily driven, we'll try and make

4:45:32that very clear. Um in the meantime

4:45:35though, I would expect though that the

4:45:38the encampment policy um will

4:45:42will be based on I think our reasonable

4:45:44projections at that time of of what our

4:45:46budgetary resources are uh and

4:45:49implementation. I think there will be a

4:45:50number of unknowns, and so I think uh as

4:45:53with any policy, you know, we we will uh

4:45:56try and help council navigate that to

4:45:57the best of our ability with the facts

4:45:59that we have and certainly can answer

4:46:00any questions before that time uh about

4:46:03sort of where where things stand in

4:46:05terms of implementing the the master

4:46:07plan.

4:46:08Thank you.

4:46:13>> All right, thank you all so much. And

4:46:15don't vote by mail. Just go in person

4:46:18and vote.

4:46:19And um

4:46:20that's our meeting.

4:46:22Oh, settle the Yeah, I got to settle the

4:46:24agenda.

4:46:26Trying to get out of here. Sorry, folks.

4:46:28>> All right.

4:46:30>> Um I'm glad several council members

4:46:32called you on it cuz I probably was

4:46:33about to let that happen, too. Hang on

4:46:35just a second. It's in my history, and

4:46:38I'm bringing it up now.

4:46:40There it is. Thank you. All right. So,

4:46:42to settle the agenda,

4:46:44uh we have on consent items 1 through 9

4:46:46and on GBA public hearing item 12.

4:46:50>> Thank you. I'll entertain a motion to

4:46:51accept the uh settled agenda.

4:46:54>> So moved.

4:46:54>> Second.

4:46:55>> Then moved and properly seconded. All in

4:46:57favor?

4:46:57>> Aye.

4:46:58>> Aye. All opposed?

4:47:00Thank you so much.

4:47:03Thank you all. Be well.

4:47:05We're adjourned at 5:46.

4:47:09Did you Did you know Richard Sullivan?

4:47:11Um