2026-10-05 - City Council

00:33Good evening, everyone. It's great to have you all here. Welcome to the People's House.

00:38And tonight we are calling this meeting to order at 7pm. Please join me in a moment of silence.

00:45Thank you. I'll pass it over to Councilmember Burris, Pledge of Allegiance.

01:03Thank you, Mr. Mayor. If this is your practice, I invite you to rise with me and

01:06recite the Pledge of Allegiance. So much. Madam Clerk, please call the roll.

01:34Good evening, Mayor Williams. I'm here. Mayor Bertram Cagliaro. Here.

01:38Councilmember Baker. Here. Councilmember Burris. Here.

01:41Councilmember Cook. Here.

01:43Councilmember Copac. Here.

01:44And Councilmember Rist. Here.

01:46Thank you so much. We're going to start with our ceremonial items.

01:50And our first reading is with Councilmember Cook. We'll get these celebratory items out of the way,

01:59which tonight is going to be a little different. I'm really excited about.

02:02And then we'll get on with the meeting and we'll be out of here in 35, 40 minutes,

02:07plus about three hours. No, we'll see.

02:14Good evening, everyone. So I'm going to be reading the proclamation on National Disability

02:23Empowerment Awareness Month. Is there anyone here that wants to miss Gloria?

02:30Whereas National Disability Employment Awareness Month is observed annually in October to celebrate

02:57the contributions of people with disabilities to America's workplaces and the economy and

03:02reaffirms the commitment to ensure equal opportunity for all. The two thousand twenty

03:07twenty six National Disability Employment Awareness Month theme celebrating value and talent

03:12encourages employers and communities to recognize the strength of a workforce

03:16that provides meaningful opportunities for people of all abilities.

03:19And whereas employers can play an important role in identifying and removing unnecessary barriers

03:25to employment, providing reasonable accommodations, supporting accessible workplaces and recognizing

03:30the qualifications, skills and talent of applicants and employees with disabilities.

03:35And whereas people with disabilities are valued as contributors to the city of Durham as

03:41employees, employers, business owners, entrepreneurs, civic leaders, volunteers,

03:45family members, neighbors and community members. And whereas the city of Durham is committed to

03:51supporting the full participation of people with disabilities and acknowledges that meaningful

03:55employment provides opportunities for economic independence, professional growth,

03:59self-determination, community participation and the opportunity for individuals to contribute

04:04their skills, knowledge, creativity and experience. And whereas the city of Durham Mayors Committee

04:10for Persons with Disabilities works to promote awareness, accessibility, employment opportunities,

04:15community participation and recognition of individuals, employers and organizations

04:20whose efforts positively impact people with disabilities. Now, therefore, I, Leonardo

04:25Williams, mayor of the city of Durham, North Carolina, do hereby proclaim October 26

04:29as National Disability Employment Awareness Month in Durham and encourage employers,

04:34educational institutions, community partners and residents to join in celebrating the value

04:39and talent of people with disabilities to recognize their contributions to our workplaces

04:44and community and to support meaningful opportunities for people with disabilities

04:47to participate, contribute and thrive throughout the year. Witness my hand in the corporate seal

04:52of the city of Durham, North Carolina. This is the fifth day of October, 2026.

05:00Good evening, our mayor, Williams and our city council of Durham. Thank you so much.

05:12Really appreciate it. And good evening, everyone else here. Ladies and gentlemen,

05:18I would like to acknowledge what this is all about. This is our 48th year since the signing

05:27of Americans with Disability Act. We have made significant progress in giving all Americans the

05:36freedom to make of our lives what we will. Yet in time of property, as well as challenge,

05:44people with disabilities have had few opportunities in our workplace than those without. As we work

05:54to revitalize our economic, it is essential that each of us can bring our talent, expertise

06:03and passion to bear in the marketplace. But a strong economic is not enough. We must ensure

06:12not only full participation, but also full opportunities during National Disability

06:19Employment Awareness Month. We recognize it in the defensively contributions, people with

06:27disabilities making our economic and we command to build a country where each of us can realize

06:36the full extension of our dreams. And that's what we're all about, working together,

06:40complicating together. This month, let us rededicate ourselves to brighten down

06:49barrels, raising up explorations for all our people, regardless of disability. So we may

06:58share in a brighter future together. Our theme is value and talent and an honoring of American

07:10250 birthdays. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for the contribute and the kindness that you

07:18share among us. God bless you. Thank you. As I was saying over there, I'm Gloria Whitehead,

08:08the chairperson. This is my vice chair. And we work very hard to make sure that

08:13Durham gets the message that if you have a disability, we're going to do the mayor's committee

08:19persons with disability. We're going to do everything that we can do and make sure that

08:23you are successful in doing anything that you want to do. You want to go to school,

08:28you want to go to work, anything that you want to do as a disabled person,

08:32you want to do it. We're going to make sure that you get every answer that you want

08:36so that you can be successful. And I apologize for being late, but I couldn't get in because

08:41I'm in a wheelchair and couldn't go through the metal detector. So they had me out there

08:45trying to figure out how to get me in. Thank you guys for giving us your attention. And please

08:52support us, especially mental illness. Please give us support because we need it. Thank you,

08:58everybody. All right. Thank you for a proclamation. And the very young lady who was reading her

09:35comments is also a former Marine. So thank you for your service. All right. I have the distinct

09:45honor here of recognizing Harper's home. So Heather Hendon and Harper, will you please join

09:51me up? So just briefly, these are good friends of mine. And we recently, there are some community

10:11members who live in a local housing establishment. And they came together and they said we want to

10:18have impact on our community, not just a big old, you know, building downtown, but we want to come

10:24together and truly support our community in ways that are a little unconventional. And I got

10:31invited to that evening and I did not know what I was being invited to, but I got there and I saw

10:34Heather and Harper and they were able to tell their story. And we talked that night and I was

10:40like, I would love to honor you guys with the proclamation because I believe the work that they

10:45are doing through lived experiences, it's just so powerful. And so I'm really excited

10:51that we brought this to fruition tonight. All right. Proclamation. Whereas October is recognized

10:59as Children's Health Month, raising awareness of the factors that support the health and well-being

11:04of children and their families. Durham is home to world-class pediatric care, welcoming families

11:11from across North Carolina and beyond who travel here for specialized and life-saving treatment.

11:17And whereas when a child must travel for care, families may be uprooted for weeks or months at

11:26a time while navigating housing, work, school, transportation alongside their child's treatment.

11:32And whereas childhood cancer survivor Harper Harrell spent more than two years receiving

11:41treatment at Duke Children's Hospital, inspiring Harper and her mother, Heather, to help families

11:48who must leave home for child's care. And whereas Harper's Home is a Durham-based non-profit

11:54providing free, fully private homes near Duke Children's Hospital. I usually don't repeat lines

12:02but I'm going to repeat that line. Whereas Harper's Home is a Durham-based non-profit providing

12:11free, fully private homes near Duke Children's Hospital. So families facing cancer and other

12:17life-threatening childhood illnesses can stay together and close to care. And whereas Harper's

12:23Home welcomed its first family in September 2025 and broke ground in April 2026 on a dedicated

12:30Durham community to serve more families, supporting children's health extends beyond medical

12:36treatment to the families, caregivers, and communities surrounding them. Now therefore,

12:42I, Leonardo Williams, Mayor of the City of Durham, North Carolina, do hereby proclaim October 2026

12:49as Children's Health Equity Month and Durham and encourage residents to recognize and support

12:55children receiving medical care and the families who stand beside them. So witness my hand and the

13:02corporate seal of the City of Durham, North Carolina, this fifth day of October 2026,

13:07and I employ the Durham community and surrounding areas to please support this type of work. Thank

13:13you. Thank you Mayor Williams and members of City Council for this Children's Health Month

13:28Proclamation and for recognizing that children's health extends beyond medical treatment to the

13:34families and communities around them. Harper's Home exists because we know this firsthand.

13:42Almost five years ago, my daughter, Harper, was eight when she was diagnosed with leukemia.

13:48She spent more than two years in care at Duke Children's. Harper received world-class medical

13:55care and our family had another enormous advantage. We already lived in Durham, the City of Medicine.

14:03When Harper needed Duke, we were minutes away. After a long day or a long stay at the hospital,

14:11she could sleep in her own bed and we could be together as a family. We learned quickly that

14:16when your child is seriously ill, proximity isn't only about convenience. Sometimes it's

14:22life-saving. That became the, I'm sorry, but we met family after family whose children traveled

14:30for access to that same care without what we had outside of the hospital. They'd come to Durham

14:36because their child needed care that they couldn't get at home and suddenly they had to figure out

14:41where they needed to sleep at night. That became the question behind Harper's Home.

14:46If families have to come to Durham to save their child's life, how do we welcome them with open

14:52arms and give them a safe, affordable place to lay their heads? Last year, we began doing just that,

15:00welcoming families into free private rental homes here in Durham. This year, as Mayor Williams

15:07mentioned, we broke ground on our own permanent community just 1.9 miles from Duke Children's.

15:14That proximity is intentional and I think this project is particularly meaningful in this room.

15:22Durham has wrestled with hard questions about housing, growth, and what our neighborhoods

15:28should look like. I can only tell you what that flexibility has made possible on one piece of

15:36Durham land. We're taking property that once served our family alone and creating cottages

15:43and duplexes where eight families at a time can live for free during some of the hardest times

15:50of their lives. They aren't hospital rooms or hotel rooms, they're homes. Places where siblings

15:58can stay together, the dog can come along, and a family can close the front door after a brutal

16:04day and simply exhale together. We talk a lot about what it means to love our neighbors.

16:10Durham gives us the opportunity to turn that from something we say into something we practice

16:16together. Families come to Durham on the worst days of their lives because of our extraordinary

16:22care. If we're going to be the city families come to when their child needs it, I hope we can be

16:27extraordinary in how we receive them. Harper is 13 now and something that began with one little

16:34girl's medical journey is changing a piece of the city where she grew up for the better. We are

16:40profoundly grateful it's happening here in our beloved city. Thank you. I just wanted to say

16:52thank you all for this opportunity to be here. I'm so so grateful and I'm so glad that we're

17:00able to do something so wonderful in this wonderful city. So thank you and have a good night.

17:05We have amazing people in this city. Great people. Good evening everyone. I'd like to call forth

17:32Jimmy Liandia, come on, for tonight's proclamation for Energy Efficiency Day. Thank you for being

17:40here. Whereas the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating, and Air Conditioning Engineers

17:54advances energy efficiency of new and existing buildings including through its research,

18:00standards, publishing, and continuing education. Whereas ASHRAE Standard 90.1 has served as the

18:08benchmark for commercial building energy codes in the U.S. and a key basis for codes and standards

18:14worldwide for almost half a century. And whereas improved energy codes for homes and commercial

18:20buildings can reduce energy consumption and utility costs while supporting local economic

18:25activity and workforce opportunities. And the City of Durham supports increasing building energy

18:31efficiency through the advancement and implementation of up-to-date codes and standards.

18:36And whereas a nationwide network of energy efficiency groups and partners has designated

18:42the first Wednesday in October as Energy Efficiency Day. And whereas Durham residents can contribute

18:49to our sustainability efforts by learning about energy efficiency and practicing smarter energy

18:55use. Now therefore I, Leonardo Williams, Mayor of the City of Durham, North Carolina, to hereby

19:01proclaim October 7, 2026 as Energy Efficiency Day in Durham and encourage all citizens to join me

19:10in supporting the implementation of our carbon neutrality and renewable energy action plan

19:15and advancing greater energy efficiency now and in the future. Witness my hand in the

19:20corporate seal of the City of Durham, North Carolina this fifth day of October, 2026.

19:25Thank you, Mayor Williams and council members. You know, what is ASHRAE? And it's not exactly a

19:43household name like he was, like he read ASHRAE's American Society of Heating Refrigeration

19:49Air Condition Engineers. So again, not well known even though it's been around. It was founded in

19:561894 and first started off in New York City and has grown. So there is now over 50,000 members

20:06worldwide. We are now in 132 countries and we have nearly 200 local chapters. Myself, I belong to

20:16the Triangle Chapter. I've been a member of 30 years and you know our mission statement is to

20:24serve humanity by advancing the arts and sciences of heating ventilation air conditioning refrigeration

20:32and their ally fields. So basically, you know, we're a bunch of volunteers. We're just trying to advance

20:40inside air quality, air conditioning, try to be as efficient as possible at the, you know,

20:47most cost-effective way. We're, myself, we are a resource here locally so we meet every month.

20:55So if you had any questions, well you can rely on us. You can come to us,

21:00contact us if you have any questions about your particular building. So I just appreciate the

21:07opportunity to be recognized and actually explain what ASHRAE is. Thank you.

21:18Good evening everyone. I'll be reading the proclamation for Hispanic Heritage Month.

21:48I'd like to invite members of the comite to come up. Those who are being honored this evening,

21:55if they could also please come up and then anyone from either Governor Stein's or the council offices

22:00that are here, the folks who are being honored could be towards the front. That would be really

22:27great. We don't want to, if you're being honored this evening, go ahead and kind of.

22:39Okay, thank you. Whereas National Hispanic Heritage Month is celebrated annually from September 15th

22:50through October 15th to celebrate the histories, cultures, ideas, and contributions of Americans

22:55with ancestry from Spain, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Central and South America, and whereas the

23:002026 National Hispanic Heritage Month theme is Together We Are More, Unidos Somos Mas. The theme

23:06highlights what that while stories may span diverse countries and traditions, the community

23:10is connected by shared values like resilience, faith, and an unwavering belief in opportunity.

23:16And whereas the city of Durham embraces all our neighbors of Hispanic, Latino, and Latinx heritage

23:20regardless of documentation status and recognizes their profound and positive influence in the

23:25city of Durham, and whereas the city of Durham recognizes the challenges the Hispanic, Latino,

23:29and Latinx communities, community continues to face in our city and the resilience in creating

23:34solutions for future generations, and whereas the city of Durham recognizes and celebrates the

23:39impact and efforts led by community organizations and individuals to support the Hispanic community

23:44like Mercedes McCurley Jaramillo, who leads the Cembrando Raices initiative that unites multiple

23:50Hispanic and Latinx families every week around community gardens, Mexican-American, Durham-based

23:55artist Antonio Annelise, who uses the visual arts to build bridges between diverse cultures,

24:01and Lase Latino NC, who provides essential information and public service resources in

24:06Spanish for the Latino community. Luis Alvarez, vice chair from El Futuro's board, who is pushing

24:11for the construction industry to provide comprehensive mental health and substance

24:15abuse help, and Alexandra Valladares, a Latina leader and community advocate with a track record

24:20of helping the Hispanic, Latino community in Durham. She's an educator, artist, musician,

24:24and restorative peacemaker, and whereas the city of Durham celebrates and encourages the growing

24:30number of Hispanic, Latino, and Latinx residents, resident leaders who are adding their voices to

24:35our city and county political landscapes, commissions, community organizations,

24:40Durham public schools, nonprofits, etc., and whereas the city of Durham is committed to

24:46improving existing opportunities and opening new doors for Hispanic, Latino, and Latinx residents

24:50of all backgrounds to participate in our city's participatory democracy. And now, therefore,

24:58I, Leonardo Williams, mayor of the city of Durham, North Carolina, do hereby proclaim

25:02September 15th through October 15th, 2026, as Hispanic Latino Heritage Month in Durham and

25:09encourage all residents to celebrate the distinct traditions of the Hispanic, Latino, and Latinx

25:12community and their contributions to our city, state, and nation by participating in relevant

25:17ceremonies, activities, and programs. Witness my hand in the corporate seal of the city of Durham,

25:22North Carolina, this fifth day of October, 2026. And I think what we can do is invite the chair

25:37of the comite to come and say a few words, and then for the folks who've been honored tonight

25:41to follow. Thank you so much. Good evening, everyone. I'm Jose la Córdova, and I am

25:51the mayor Hispanic, Latino, committee chair. First of all, I want to say thank you to every

25:58resident who's joining us in celebrating the contributions of the thriving Hispanic, Latino

26:04community. This year's heritage month theme, it's unidos somos mas, and that theme invite us all,

26:11Hispanic and non-Hispanic, to celebrate our community and recognize the strength

26:16that help us to build a thriving city of Durham. Mayor Williams, Mayor Pro tempore Caballero,

26:23members of the city council and the community engagement team, thank you for supporting the

26:27work of the mayor Hispanic, Latino committee, and by honoring our community with this proclamation.

26:33As we celebrate also, I want to name a feeling that I believe many of our community share.

26:41Celebrating our heritage and our language at this moment, it's bittersweet. I was asked earlier this

26:47evening, what's the number one issue that we're working on? Well, we carry pride on who we are

26:53alongside deep concerns for safety and the well-being of our families and neighbors.

26:58Detention and deportation affect entire families, including children who fear being separated

27:04from their parents. Families worried that speaking Spanish might invite suspicious

27:09about their immigration status, or that their children might be bullied at schools because of

27:13their language of heritage. These concerns are part of our community's conversations,

27:19and they stay with us when we speak with our community. As we celebrate Hispanic heritage

27:24month, it is important to remember that every family deserves to feel safe, every child deserves

27:32to feel that they belong, and every resident deserves to be treated with dignity. I accept

27:40the Hispanic heritage month proclamation with great pride and gratitude. As the chair of the

27:45mayor Hispanic Latino committee, I invite every Durham resident to carry on this spirit into an

27:52action. Please stand beside your immigrant neighbors, speak up against discrimination,

27:58and help to protect the dignity, safety, and belonging of our community. Let us celebrate

28:04our heritage through our words, through our actions, through the care and courage that

28:10we show for one another. And let us celebrate Hispanic heritage month, not only this month,

28:16but all year round, because Unidos somos más united we are more. Muchas gracias a todos.

28:27And let me just give you a recognition to the individuals that we're recognizing

28:38this evening. I want to call the representative of En las El Latino. Thank you so much for

28:54that. I talk in Spanish. Right now Jose is playing We Are the Language, Beautiful Language.

29:16[Spanish]

29:48Thank you Jose. Thank you everyone for being here tonight. Thank you Mayor Williams and city

30:24council members. My name is Luis Alvarez. I am the board chair of El Futuro. It is a non-profit

30:32here in Durham that gives mental health services to Latino families. Our mission is to nurture

30:39stronger familias. And that's what I'm representing here tonight. Growing up in Durham, I never

30:45thought I'd be here speaking in front of everybody, but it just goes to show the perseverance and the

30:50strength that the Latino community have with the support of the city. I heard we're supposed to be

30:55out of here in 35 minutes, so I'll keep it at that. Thank you. Antonio Alaniz. Good evening Mayor

31:08Williams. Good evening board city of council of Durham. My name is Antonio Alaniz and I'm a

31:15visual artist. And I just want to say thank you so much for this certificate. It means the world

31:20to me that the work of the artist sometimes goes unnoticed. But to see that you all are here

31:26honoring the work that I'm doing and also for adopting the recently in Durham cultural board

31:32plan as well. I want to say thank you for this investment. And also I am here to celebrate,

31:36but also to grieve. As you were saying earlier, communities are under attack and our communities

31:40do not feel safe. But I'm just hoping that we can continue using the arts as a way to

31:45continue fighting and also remember that we come from a strong lineage of campesinos, people who

31:51worked in the fields and people who have fought in revolutions, people who have fought in multiple

31:57difficult parts of our history. And as well I just want to say thank you so much for taking this

32:03again for me fully accepted. Muchas gracias. Mercedes. Thank you everyone. I generally don't

32:18like to be in these spaces and don't like to be the face of a group of women that are doing the

32:27work and the labor. This work, community work, that's what the work community comes from. This

32:33work doesn't get done in isolation. I couldn't be doing what I'm doing without the support and I

32:40can stand here and start naming Nancy, Amanda, Evelia, Norma, Susana, Mirna, Mayra, Dulce,

32:55Daniela, Maria, Natalie, Natalia. And I need to go down my list of women that are doing this work

33:05that should be here with us that need to be recognized because they're the ones that get up

33:11every morning at five in the morning and raising children and taking care of homes and working

33:19are part of Durham and on Fridays come to Club Boulevard Elementary after work, after

33:27cleaning houses, being nannies, working at factories, working construction, come

33:34and have found a safe space where they can where they feel that the voice is adding to our

33:42community. So they're getting back into growing food, being able to share food with community.

33:49So I'm here to celebrate them. So thank you for this opportunity. Thank you and after folks take

34:03their seat we have some performers here this evening who are going to celebrate with us.

34:08Thank you all so much. All right Vivian I think we're ready.

35:33Thank you all so much and that is our meeting tonight. We can all go home now to the held you

37:39guys to the end of the meeting. Thank you all so much. I will now start with council

37:49comments and I'll start to my left. Councilmember Copac.

38:02Good evening, happy heritage Hispanic heritage month to everyone and I look forward on Wednesday

38:08to having the honour of delivering the keynote at Durham Centre for Senior Life in recognition

38:13of Hispanic Heritage Month and also in recognition of the incredible contributions of the Hispanic

38:19Latino Latinx community to the Durham community. So looking forward to that. I want to congratulate

38:25and thank a bull, a bike Durham, the city and partners for putting on another incredible

38:31movable Durham open streets event and I would like to see us expand this into

38:36more parts of Durham so more of our residents can experience what it is to have truly safe

38:42streets. I want to wish a happy LGBTQ+ History Month which is a great time to visit the Pauli

38:48Murray Centre and to connect with the LGBTQ Centre of Durham. Happy NCCU Homecoming Week.

38:56There's a lot going on and I want to thank the Durham Chamber and our hosts in Grand Rapids for

39:00welcoming us to an intercity visit last week which was a great learning opportunity.

39:07I want to say welcome to Lauren Fung who is a City Council intern who will be working

39:14this fall on projects to democratize safety and beautification projects on our streets.

39:19Lauren is a student at UNC's Masters of Regional Planning program, has done some really important

39:25initiatives, some work to support immigrant communities and is also a Rubik's Cube champion.

39:31So welcome Lauren, looking forward to working with you. Looking forward to making a number

39:39of steps, stops tomorrow night for National Night Out. It's a really important opportunity for us

39:44to build relationships and connect with each other in ultimately serving one of our most

39:49critical roles which is providing for the health and welfare of our residents. So looking forward

39:53to seeing everyone out tomorrow night. And finally we need everyone to know about the

39:58harmful amendments that our legislature has brought forth and put on the ballot this fall

40:04which will lead to even further cuts to municipalities like Durham will benefit

40:08the richest North Carolinians and corporations and will make voting harder without making it

40:13safer or more secure which is why I'll be sharing with my colleagues language for resolution to

40:19consider in Thursday's work session to educate and call on all Durhamites to vote against

40:24these harmful amendments. Unidos somos más. Thank you. Thank you and Councilmember Kobach

40:34did not leave any announcements for anyone else, just ran the gamut on everything. Councilmember

40:40Baker. That is true. That covered everything. Councilmember Kobach congratulations. Thank you

40:47for that. I'd like to associate myself with those comments. Thank you all for being here. Thank you

40:53to all who are watching at home for your participation in your local government here

40:58at City of Durham, our Monday night meeting. Also want to give a shout out as well to

41:06the amazing organizing around Durham Pride this weekend and prior I saw many of my colleagues

41:14out having fun. There was rain but it didn't deter people, many people out in the streets

41:20and it was beautiful, movable, a beautiful way of demonstrating that people belong in our streets

41:29and not just cars, that we can reimagine what our streets look like, what our city looks like,

41:35and that spaces can be held by human beings and bikes and scooters and skateboards and there were

41:42so many people out at this movable event downtown. It was beautiful to see. And then I also want to

41:52congratulate one of our city's most critical institutions and partners, Duke University.

42:01Through the made for this campaign they've raised five billion dollars since 2019 just in

42:08contributions from private donors and between July 2025 and June 2026 they've raised one

42:16billion dollars and we know that when Duke is doing well Durham we want we want Duke and Durham

42:23to both succeed. Our destinies are intertwined and we all know that. We just want to make a

42:30comparison. The general fund for this fiscal year for the city of Durham is just 326 million dollars.

42:38As a tax-free institution it is time that Duke make contributions to the city of Durham. Our

42:48taxpayers, our residents make those contributions through taxes, our small businesses do. In fact

42:53if you're downtown you pay three different taxes, county, city, and municipal service district in

42:58downtown. And so we do believe I do believe it is time for our largest landowner and wealthiest

43:05landowner to to pay their fair share so that we can all thrive together. And I look forward to

43:11productive meeting. Thank you. Good evening and thank you all who are joining us in council

43:19chambers and those who are watching us online virtually. I'm excited to be back after spending

43:23the week in China. I had the opportunity to go to our sister city in Kunishan, China where I got

43:27to visit various industries with our young entrepreneurs for our sister cities. So many

43:31things to the coordinators of that trip. Got to visit some electric vehicle manufacturers,

43:35small business incubators, their local hospitals, and of course Duke University. They have a campus

43:39there as well. So a lot of innovative and great things happening in this city. They are now at

43:43the number one produce, not producer, but manufacturer of coffee products. So that was

43:47really fun to visit and also got to go doing what's known as Chinese Moon Festival or the

43:51Mid-Autumn Festival which represents a lot of folks who come back to the rural areas. A lot

43:55of people move to the bigger cities to pursue education. It's about going back home to honor

43:59your roots and your family and it happened of course of my birthday which I'm still celebrating.

44:03So super excited to be home. That flight was one of the longest flights I've ever endured in my life

44:08where you go to sleep and wake up used to have 15 hours left. So that was pretty fun. Also want

44:12to say happy homecoming to the Eagles of Lustrous North Carolina Central University to which I am a

44:17double graduate. So as a mayor I don't want to leave him out. Looking forward to an event full

44:21of a lot of great activities happening and hopefully we'll see you all at the game on Saturday.

44:26And don't forget there's many ways to give that participate and share so don't forget to donate

44:30to NCCU. Also I had the opportunity to join my colleagues on Saturday at the Pride Parade. We

44:36had a lot of fun where one of my colleagues dances like a robot I saw in China and I won't,

44:40it was Nate, it was definitely Nate. It was a good time though to see everyone

44:45dancing and getting along and just celebrating our community. Just really quick there's one person

44:50who did drive through a parade and I just want to uplift. In fact you see roads blocked off and

44:54people in the streets it's probably not a good idea to take your vehicle onto the street.

44:58That was a bad decision. But finally last but not least I want to send my sincerest gratitude

45:03to our city manager Mr. Beau Ferguson and Director of Community Safety and Wellness

45:07Ryan Smith who joined me this morning as we met and spoke with some neighbors of the

45:11Fayetteville Street corridor who were concerned about defunct encampment. So also Chief Martis

45:17is here so I want to thank you for your hard work with Operation Safe Passage. This issue has

45:21been really near due to my heart. I'm going to be brief because I have 54 seconds left but I want

45:25to know we hear your concerns about housing challenges in this community and we take those

45:29very seriously. We know it's not a one size fits all approach but we must do this work together.

45:35I think about there's been a lot of talk on social media about dignified housing but

45:40I think about the fact that we have a vulnerable population where people feel it's okay to target

45:44them and sell illicit drugs there and have drug houses of close proximity. Is that dignified

45:49housing where people don't have restrooms to go to the smell all those things. So I think it's

45:54really thinking about who's advocating for community and I don't know when we've got a

45:58social justice hierarchy so only certain folks could speak for community but people do have a

46:02right to want better standards for where they're living and for their neighbors. So I look forward

46:07to having conversations that result in like tangible outcomes and not just for likes and

46:11posts on social media. So look forward to meeting tonight. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Mayor. Good

46:24evening colleagues, staff, residents and those online as well. Good to see you all. Yeah my

46:28colleagues touched on a lot of things been going on. It's been an exciting couple weeks. I did

46:31want to note that is also it was a bittersweet weekend. Two folks died from gunshots over the

46:36weekend a third person just succumbed to wounds today. That's a tragic result in the Bull City

46:42and my heart goes out to the families involved. We do have a violence reduction plan in the

46:46city of Durham with the county and we're moving forward on that but we can't move fast enough.

46:51As we saw last week actually a couple weeks ago at the work session violent crime was up

46:55five percent this last two months last six months period compared to last year. So

46:59it's something critical to work on. I'm glad that the chief is here. We know it's a challenge we

47:02have. Tomorrow is national night out. I encourage you all to get out to meet some of the great

47:07folks on Durham Police Department who are working hard every day in violent and tough

47:12situations. I want to thank you all for the staff and the officers and for being out there

47:16tomorrow night. So let's work together to address violent crime. I did want to again

47:23my colleagues noted a lot of things that are happening. I did want to say pride was a lot

47:27of fun even though the rain was coming out it couldn't dampen us and I want to give a big

47:30shout out to the Velvet Hippo that had that float right in front of us to bring the tune so we can

47:36keep moving and rocking out. So thanks to the Velvet Hippo for bringing the tunes and the funk.

47:42I also want to say thanks to NCCU President Kerry Dixon and her staff for inviting me and

47:47colleagues to come to the football game on Saturday. Close loss to Campbell would have

47:51been good to pull that one out but I want to give a big shout out to the mayor who said hey you

47:54want to come down on the field for halftime and watch the band play. So from a former

48:02drum major yeah so great to be with you on the field there what a great experience so thank

48:05you for that and and go central during this homecoming week looking forward to all the

48:08celebration. The last thing I'll say is yeah with a bunch of colleagues we did go to Grand Rapids

48:14last week to visit the city there on the western coast of Michigan. It's always good to get out

48:19of Durham I'm so proud of Durham and all that we're doing but it's always great to get out of

48:22Durham and see what other communities are doing what they're doing well what they're doing not

48:25so well. There's a lot of things we can learn from Grand Rapids a lot of great amenities

48:28downtown I think we'd love to have a lot of lessons about workforce development that that

48:33we can share here in Durham and actually I see some folks from from from BPAC and bike Durham

48:38they got bus rapid transit in Grand Rapids we don't have that yet so they definitely move

48:41forward on some key transit pieces that we'd love to have so it's always good to learn I

48:45want to thank the chamber for bringing a bunch of us to Grand Rapids to learn more about what

48:49they're doing and yeah thanks to BPAC and bike Durham for the great movable streets festival

48:54on Sunday it's great to be out streets are for people and he's glad that we could celebrate that

48:57so thank you Mr. Mayor. Councilmember Cook. I don't have anything to add but I want to thank

49:05all my colleagues for touching everything that I had on my list and and I look forward to a good

49:10meeting thanks everyone for being here. Thank you councilmember mayor Pro Tem. Good evening everyone

49:15thank you so much for all my colleagues and their great comments pride was great lots of fun

49:20activities are happening right now it is one of the busiest times of the year in the Bull City

49:24because cooler weather has finally arrived I just wanted to share this very quickly this is about

49:31voting against the amendments it's also in Spanish which I thought was excellent and so this was a

49:37resident brought it during the Hispanic heritage month celebration and so I just thought it was

49:42great that we're seeing bilingual and other languages we we all know how dangerous these

49:49amendments are and folks really aren't understanding the real danger that it's going to face all three

49:55of them are bad obviously the one that municipal government is most focused on is around the

50:00property tax piece of it but please don't know on all three of those I expect as we lean you

50:07know start heading into early voting we're going to see a lot more chatter a lot more

50:11op-eds resolutions and things like that I know our school board colleagues have passed one and

50:16we're getting they're encouraging us as a council to pass one as well so I thank you councilmember

50:22Kovac for for bringing that to us and so please get out to vote the reason they put it in front

50:28of you is because they know they're sucking at their jobs and so they need to turn out the vote

50:35in a different way than they want to see we're all watching our gas tanks carefully we're all

50:42watching our food bills we know how expensive things are and we know whose fault it is and I

50:49hope Durham voters also are real clear on whose fault it is don't don't don't fall for baubles

50:55y'all don't don't fall for gimmicks so that is all I have this evening thank you so much in regards

51:04to those you all are hearing us talk about these constitution amendments and saying vote no

51:09some people may not know what the heck we're talking about I will be holding a press conference

51:13about some of these things just providing general information to the public but basically it's about

51:19you know some things that are already in place as a law or practice but the general assembly is

51:24moving to cement some things into the constitution which will make it really hard to manipulate or

51:30adjust if needed prime example if we run into a natural disaster we'll need to end the federal

51:35government says FEMA will not help you as a state we'll have to generate you know generate

51:41revenue to address that natural disaster such as hurricane helene and if we aren't able to do that

51:46then there are other measures that would have to take place which means that government money

51:50could go into wealthy people with wealthy resources and just make more wealthy people

51:56wealthier and it uh you know our government should work for the people and and and not you

52:01know uh funneling out to private uh private entities so um we'll be putting a little more

52:08information out about that uh and and um i'll be making sure that i use my capacity to to be loud

52:14about it as well as you've heard there is uh there is a lot that's happening uh all the things my

52:20colleague said so yes happy homecoming to our alma mater nccu uh family weekend is coming up

52:26at duke university uh i want to say shout out to bike durham and the organizers around movable

52:32enjoyed it uh folks were rolling walking running biking uh just it was so many people out but also

52:41uh npr wnc celebrated 50 years and i'm really excited about that but also duke duke health

52:49duke regional 50 years um was uh have uh celebrating 50 years this weekend um really

52:57excited about that also the first church for african americans in durham white rock baptist

53:02church 160 years and in january uh pastor dr reginal van stevens will be the longest serving

53:12pastor at that church which will be over 30 years so uh just lots of things that are happening in

53:18our community uh and and really excited about it yes we went to grand rapids michigan last week

53:24uh council members commissioners uh school board members uh our administrators the private sector

53:34chamber of commerce it was an amazing gathering uh spent a lot of time together really just doing

53:39some mutual learning uh what they're doing there and what we're doing here and just doing some

53:45comparative analysis and looking forward to just bringing some of those ideas here they're taking

53:50some of our ideas and we had the city of baltimore as well uh on their inner city visit here and

53:57they are now about to adopt the heart program in baltimore so uh lots of things happening and

54:02really excited about it uh outside of my time i will as always give an update uh council member

54:11burris just to address the uh she acknowledged operation safe passage and addressed the

54:17encampment at fedville street american tobacco trail palace street uh and and really this applies

54:23i don't need to really say anything i think that her comments were eloquently articulated exactly

54:28the way i would want them expressed um because everyone that's passionate about it that that

54:34that doesn't go discounted but at the same time you know we we no one person determines you know

54:42uh how all of this works we are a government you've you elected us to lead and i think that

54:48this council is leading uh we have a homeless plan that we haven't had before you know we are

54:53we are filled with compassion but we're also going to have accountability and um and and for those that are

54:59saying that nothing should happen then what should happen to the folks that are living in those

55:04conditions and um for those folks that are saying you know uh the city is you know the city is you

55:11know all the claims that are made trust me uh our staff is amazing and they're doing it the right

55:16way in the best way that being said i'm going to address our uh housing sprints uh that's that's

55:23happening um there are many many questions on it but uh i think this may address the concern that

55:29we are just kicking people out of the encampments and just throwing them somewhere else there go

55:34somewhere else um across the housing sprints that we've done thus far we've now housed about 100

55:40people and of those 100 people more than 40 have been children and our latest sprint the average

55:48age of those those children have been eight years old and additionally in the most recent sprint we

55:54have also been able to provide housing for 16 of the 18 people who were sleeping outdoors

56:00at oakwood park when i say housing i don't mean just hotel rooms i mean actual housing people

56:06now have a roof over their head that's not a hotel room and they're receiving wrap-around

56:11services they're receiving um uh you know just counseling to help them get on their own two feet

56:16this is not a situation where the government is just going to forever take care of someone that

56:22is capable of taking care of themselves but we will do our part to make sure that people can

56:26become self-sustainable again um and there's a lot more work to do you know just i just want to be

56:33very clear about this we are making real progress and and again kudos to the staff um you know

56:41there are some emails that i've gotten or some people that have sent me messages saying you

56:46know i don't want my textiles paying for this i'm sorry you elected me to be mayor of this city

56:51and i cannot look an eight-year-old child in their face and see them homeless and not do something

56:56about it and i continuously say you know give me two hours of this war this unnecessary war

57:04at our end two hours of the budget to that war we can solve homelessness for the entire country

57:09we can solve hunger for the entire country so other parts of the government in this country

57:15may not have their priorities in place but in Durham we do and i'll stand on that ten toes down

57:20so i applaud the staff for this work and the colleagues i applaud us as a council for putting

57:26our investments uh in in a compassionate way here but also holding accountability and and

57:33we are leading the city this is where the decisions are made not on facebook and not on

57:38social media it's on this council and we'll continue to lead the city the best way we can

57:45and uh eventually i haven't met with the chief yet one-on-one although we've had one-on-one

57:51interactions but i'll also start giving some updates around uh just the uh the update on

57:56the valid crime reduction uh as council member risk said yes two people were were shot uh too

58:03much for my comfort um but i'm going to be defiant about being defined about our our

58:09challenges just we will not let those challenges define who we are it really frustrates me that

58:15there are individuals who are just picking up a gun to communicate that that's just silly to me

58:21it's stupid and people are dying but i am going to remain hopeful and tomorrow as stated we do

58:27have national night out and i hope that out of the i think 47 sites i hope that you will join

58:34one of them and just be in community and be with your neighbors and let's be defiant let's let's

58:40love hard on our neighbors and let's be out there and show how we're truly going to be defined and

58:45that's not by our negativity but how we overcome those negative things all right thank you all so

58:51much and uh let's let's get to let's get to work uh we have about 758 we have about 30 minutes to

58:58finish the agenda and so what i'll do is i'll pass it over to mr manager for priority items

59:05thank you mayor mayor madam mayor pro tema members of council the city manager's office

59:10has a few priority items to bring to your attention this evening first for agenda item

59:14number 12 this was the application for outdoor recreation legacy partnership program grant

59:20this item was uh the rules were suspended and this item was voted on and adopted at your work

59:26session but there was a pretty robust conversation about this item so i just want to make sure

59:30council saw that there is additional information uh explained in the gap between the original bond

59:35request for the long meadow and east end park renovation projects and the project's current

59:39estimated funding needs that was attached to your agenda as item number 12 but i wanted to alert

59:44council to the fact that there's an updated version of that memo that you received via email

59:48just a few minutes ago so if you have not had a chance to see it yet but are looking for it

59:53later i would ask you to use the version that's in your email then for agenda item number 16 this

59:58is the 2020

1:00:00Second quarter crime report, additional data and analysis that was requested during the

1:00:04September 24th work session for the crime report has been attached under item number

1:00:0916.

1:00:10Finally, just an announcement to reiterate what several council members have announced

1:00:17this evening.

1:00:18I just did want to remind the community and the council that tomorrow is our national

1:00:22night out celebration.

1:00:24We have celebrations across the city.

1:00:26This is a fantastic event where we celebrate everyone's participation in building neighborhood

1:00:31connections and working in activities to prevent crime throughout our community and keep our

1:00:35community safe.

1:00:36I want to applaud the tremendous work of our police department but also a number of other

1:00:40city departments, community partnerships and engagement, fire department, the Parks and

1:00:45Recreation Department, a number of departments that support and participate in national night

1:00:49out throughout the city.

1:00:51For any residents who are interested in finding out more information, I encourage you to go

1:00:54to our city's police department, the city's police website where you can find a specific

1:01:01page about national night out that has all the information to help find a celebration

1:01:06in your area.

1:01:07I know the manager's office will be out and a number of members of the mayor and council

1:01:11will be out and around.

1:01:12We look forward to seeing you out on what looks like a beautiful night to celebrate

1:01:16partnerships in our city.

1:01:18Thank you, Mayor.

1:01:20Thank you, Madam Attorney.

1:01:23Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Madam Mayor Pro Tem and members of the council.

1:01:26Good to see you.

1:01:27City attorney's office has no priority items tonight.

1:01:31Thank you.

1:01:32Madam Clerk.

1:01:33Good evening, Mr. Mayor, Madam Mayor Pro Tem and members of City Council.

1:01:36The city clerk's office has no priority items this evening.

1:01:39Thank you so much.

1:01:44I'll now read the consent agenda.

1:01:47Item number two, citizens of Azaria committee appointment number three, Durham Board of

1:01:50Adjustment Appointments, number four, number three, yeah, number four, renewal contract

1:01:55for state and federal lobbying services.

1:01:57Number five.

1:01:58I'd like to call that.

1:01:59I'd like to call number four.

1:02:00I'll probably review that list, thank you, Madam Clerk.

1:02:05Matter of fact, Mayor Pro Tem, can you just.

1:02:07And I pulled it as well.

1:02:08Wait, which one did you?

1:02:08I pulled number four.

1:02:09And I think there's a speaker on it as well.

1:02:11Yeah, it is.

1:02:18Four, twenty three, twenty four, sixty, in person, sixty nine.

1:02:25But no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1:02:40Item number four, renewal contract for state and federal lobbying services, which was

1:02:44placed on GBA.

1:02:45It's been pulled.

1:02:48And there's a resource person.

1:02:49Okay, there is a speaker.

1:02:57Oh, I see, I see, there's a lot of numbers on here.

1:03:04Okay.

1:03:07Item number five, fiscal year twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six, fourth quarter financial

1:03:10report.

1:03:11Item number six, cooperative group purchase contract change order to three, custom pomper

1:03:18fire trucks.

1:03:19Number seven, imminent domain action to obtain one temporary construction easement at seven

1:03:24ten West corn Wallace Road for the S.W. four five bike and sidewalk project number eight.

1:03:30I'm going to domain action to obtain one temporary construction easement at three, four, one,

1:03:33four Hillsborough Road for the S.W. five two sidewalk project number nine amendment

1:03:39two to structural maintenance improvements for parking facilities design agreement with

1:03:44Kim really horn and Associates Incorporated number ten consulting consultant contract

1:03:51for compensation classification study number eleven approval of amendments to the citizens

1:03:56advisory committee bylaws and thirteen utility extension agreement with set up now investments

1:04:02LLC to serve foreign street lots number fourteen utility extension agreement with family building

1:04:09company to LLC to serve twenty six twenty nine Harvard Avenue lots and fifteen utility

1:04:15extension agreement with Raphael Darrell Lopez Lopez and Alona perot to serve nineteen hundred

1:04:22and nineteen hundred and two and your avenue for sixteen twenty twenty six second quarter

1:04:28crime report for seventeen consent to contract assignment neighborhood compass data portal

1:04:35contract number one nine one one six from neighborhood data works to University of

1:04:40North Carolina at Chapel Hill number eighteen triangle region transit survey funding agreement

1:04:47number nineteen and our local agreement for bus mobile ticketing software and hardware

1:04:54on number twenty purchase contract with Gillette LLC for eight buses for go Durham and twenty

1:04:59one contract amendment six to the professional engineering services contract with Hazen and

1:05:04Sawyer PC for the East Durham water and sewer rehabilitation rehabilitation and belt street

1:05:10regional stormwater improvements project number twenty two construction award to TA

1:05:15loving company for the Elizabeth Street water replacement project on GBA our public hearings

1:05:21twenty three solid annexation and I a storm headquarters and I s Durham headquarters

1:05:26to and number twenty four consolidated annexation thirty eight fifteen wake force highway those

1:05:33are our items our consent agenda with items for just item number four pulled and then

1:05:42we have our present public hearings tonight I'm gonna take a motion to to move the consent

1:05:52agenda second the property seconded by the clerk please open to vote oh here we go please

1:06:12close the vote and the motion passes unanimously I don't know why it froze all right item number

1:06:20four renewal contract for state and local federal lobbying services I was yeah all right

1:06:32speaker is Pablo Freeman welcome you have three minutes all right good evening mayor

1:07:12Williams mayor pro tem Caballero members of council city manager Ferguson city attorney

1:07:17Rieberg staff folks in the audience the millions of viewers who care about democracy online

1:07:23so for our students who are in the audience tonight you're gonna get a great lesson with

1:07:30this agenda item because here in Durham we talk in progressive sonnets and then we govern

1:07:37as conservatives and you're gonna see that expressed tonight in this matter before the

1:07:42council so on the council tonight is a proposed contract with checkmate government solutions

1:07:50now unless you've done your research or you've googled this name you won't know much about

1:07:55it but their founder is hunting buddies with the son of our president additionally his

1:08:01brother is a sitting congressperson in the middle part of North Carolina and they happen

1:08:09to be winning this contract to represent us before in Raleigh so you might think hiring

1:08:14a republican might be a good thing for you and I think with this republican controlled

1:08:19general assembly that might make sense however if you go to the secretary of state website

1:08:25for North Carolina you will see their other clients one of their other clients is the

1:08:29city of Charlotte and the city of Charlotte for all of its incredible lobbying with checkmate

1:08:34government solutions and its money that it's spent managed to get a poison pill inserted

1:08:40in this year's budget bill where they had to reverse their vote against tolls on I-77

1:08:47and you can look at the news reports have been published in the press recently so I'd

1:08:52like to know why are we spending nearly a half million dollars to a republican founded

1:08:59lobbying firm in progressive Durham what are we getting out of it and to continue with

1:09:04the question that councilmember Baker asked at the work session what are the metrics if

1:09:09you read the memo essentially all we're buying is relationships the proposed contract that

1:09:14we have with our federal lobbying firm actually has deliverables metrics they're helping with

1:09:19grant funding they're helping with templates and so on and so forth but what are we getting

1:09:24with this what pieces of legislation have they blocked what have they helped because

1:09:28their track record in Charlotte isn't very strong despite you know the founder being

1:09:31hunting buddies with our president so my challenge to all of you on the dais I need

1:09:37you all to govern like progressives and stop voting like Republicans into the Duke students

1:09:43start googling checkmate government solutions and ask yourselves why is progressive Durham

1:09:48signing this contract thank you very much thank you councilmember cook thank you and

1:10:00thank you mr. Freeman I don't have too much to add I think that this is something that

1:10:06I've been looking at since the contract for renewal came back this was something that

1:10:13we started early on in my tenure as a council member and so I just want to own that I was

1:10:19really excited to have a lobbyist and I thought that that was going to be a great thing for

1:10:23this city and I will say that exactly as our public speaker has stated the federal

1:10:30lobbying has had an amazing return on investment we have seen incredible appropriations almost

1:10:37to the tune of three million dollars last year alone far and away outstrips the money

1:10:43that we're spending on those federal lobbyists and that investment I can stand by and support

1:10:49unfortunately we haven't really seen the same in return on investment from our state

1:10:54lobbyists and I think that in addition to some considerations about who the lobbyists

1:11:02are the real thing for me is that the cost of this lobbying firm is way greater than

1:11:09comparable state lobbying so we had three different firms that responded to our RFP

1:11:16back when we were hiring and several with comparable comparable substantive expertise

1:11:24and one with almost exactly the same substantive expertise and also the same number of years

1:11:29and experience and the cost of the other two were six thousand and sixty five hundred

1:11:36a month respectively and we chose the one that is ten thousand dollars per month and

1:11:41that is a ten thousand dollars per month expenditure regardless whether folks are

1:11:47in session or not I will say that I sit on the legislative committee I know that our

1:11:52lobbyists are working very hard it's not any comment on the specific lobbyists that

1:11:57we've been assigned to I know we're doing quite a lot of work and have met with us

1:12:01very regularly but for me I can't understand the return on investment substantiating the

1:12:07great expenditure that we're making for this for this specific firm and so I will be voting

1:12:13against the state lobbyists contract for that reason this evening yeah thank you any

1:12:23other comments yeah sure go ahead thank you Miss Mary I appreciate the comments from the

1:12:28audience and councilman cook yeah anytime we're working with a Republican legislature

1:12:34and asking lobbyists to help us this is a it's tricky stuff right this is sausage making

1:12:38it's a big investment we've made we made that decision several years ago I will say

1:12:43the part of the work that our lobbyists do is to defend us from bad legislation it's

1:12:47hard to quantify that the one thing we did get this year was a local bill passed for

1:12:52Durham that gives us that we're the only city in the state of North Carolina that now

1:12:57has the authority to set our own speed limits state DOT says default speed limits at 35

1:13:03miles per hour across cities in North Carolina if it's not otherwise posted so the default

1:13:07is 35 miles per hour we can now set that below 35 we can set up wherever we want to

1:13:12and that's a real win for us I will note in terms of cost right just a couple weeks

1:13:18ago as you probably all know a nine-year-old on his bike was killed by a car in the street

1:13:23probably is going faster than 25 miles an hour so hard to quantify a life I think part

1:13:28of our vision zero goal is to make sure we reduce speed limits to make sure less kids

1:13:33are getting hurt on roads in adults as well and so for me that's a big win it's a big

1:13:37win I know it's tricky politics here when you're working with a lobbying firm but to

1:13:41me that's a big one for Durham thank you mr. Mayor anyone else so I just have a question

1:13:53for attorney miles hello so I heard some mention about some like basically having

1:14:00some metrics in the contract is that out of the question to amend the contract to add

1:14:03those metrics in so we can see kind of like I just want to know more about what my count

1:14:08my colleagues want because what's the solution this case right and so if you're saying like

1:14:12this you're not satisfied with the production the work and the outcomes is there a way

1:14:17to make it better that we move forward because I do know that in my mind in theory for state

1:14:21legislators like our delegation should be there technically our lobbyists almost they're

1:14:26the ones who are in Raleigh that we send we vote there but I do know that we've had some

1:14:30recent turnover and so we lost some maybe senior people for our Durham delegation so

1:14:34there's one part I'm looking at but I am not completely thrilled with the outcomes

1:14:39of this investment and so I'm wondering if there's a way to strengthen our contract

1:14:42with them to get better outcomes or how do we and I also feel like the information flow

1:14:46does not necessarily make it to all seven of us and so we asked earlier in this year

1:14:50I know I asked you put on like a mailing list to kind of monitor some of the bills

1:14:54and I'm still not at mailing list and so just trying to figure out like how do we improve

1:14:58what should if there's a willingness to improve contract or what can we do to move forward

1:15:03Aaron Miles with the city attorney's office we can amend the contract to add those metrics

1:15:08I think the question would be what would those metrics look like because anything

1:15:13that we're asking for with through our lobbyists through our delegation has to be voted on

1:15:18by a majority of each chamber so even if those thing bills are being filed or appropriations

1:15:25are being asked for there's no guarantee that those things will come to fruition unless

1:15:30there is a vote at the state level or the federal level to move those things forward

1:15:36so I guess the question would be what would those metrics look like for you all so we

1:15:39can try to quantify them in the contract just acknowledging the fact that when you

1:15:44are asking for those type of things and dealing with state representatives and federal representatives

1:15:50you're waiting for those votes to occur and there's no guarantee that even the appropriations

1:15:56that we are getting on the federal level or that are pending on the federal level

1:16:00are those are not guaranteed okay and I'll just clarify my comments are specific for

1:16:04checkmate like not that I don't have the same concerns at the federal level so and

1:16:08then I just want to like the tension for me also is that we invoke certain folks names

1:16:13but then we also did pass the resolution around the Trump the Trump credits for the kids

1:16:19the accounts more so so it's just kind of thinking about the consent this is like for

1:16:23everyone to think about like when we're naming things about we don't want to be affiliated

1:16:26with certain people but then we voted unanimously for a resolution to do those accounts so

1:16:29it's kind of like where are we really standing with this more so and like I'm not as an

1:16:34idea have opportunity to speak with some of our lobbyists will the lobbyists and talk

1:16:37to them about the affiliation between the guy who's the best friend of Donald Trump

1:16:43all that stuff like that so I'm just trying to figure out if we're making perfect in me

1:16:46a good or is this just like another moment for us so I want to figure out like how do

1:16:50we get to a solution in this moment and I'm not trying to compel anyone to vote differently

1:16:53but I just want to gently here solutions for if you're not supporting this or we want

1:16:58to have metrics around to make it better what does that look like for my colleagues

1:17:06any other comments councilmember Baker call back you all good thank you I appreciate

1:17:18people's comments I mean when this so first of all the city attorney's office ran an

1:17:23RFP process right two years ago now and so within that process these were the two firms

1:17:34that were kind of brought to the front of the line and then ultimately the legislative

1:17:40committee made a decision and then brought it to council as a recommendation essentially

1:17:43so it wasn't just willy-nilly it was with actual research and checkmate was picked partly

1:17:51because of their relationships there are certain legislators who don't love them either right

1:17:57it was a mixed bag and we understood why that was necessary in this moment and I will say

1:18:07the part around against legislation that could be damning there has been a lot of that this

1:18:13session there has been stuff that has been we were able to know what was happening and

1:18:19had we not had those people with those relationships we would have been caught off guard and Durham

1:18:24would be in a worse place hard to quantify because that is relationship it is not did

1:18:31you get an appropriation of X amount of dollars it is it is because people know people and

1:18:38Durham is not in a position quite frankly in Raleigh we are not a positive position

1:18:44in any way and so at this point I'm gonna take what I can get just like I didn't love

1:18:50the name of the trump accounts but it is a savings account that many kids are going

1:18:54to be able to get and it's going to improve their quality of life and it's going to create

1:18:59a system and a process for lots of families who would not otherwise be able to access

1:19:03that that's not a great place to be in that's a hard place to be in that's what it's that's

1:19:10what governance is about governance is not campaigning governance is making hard decisions

1:19:17and everything is not necessarily going your way and also not doing you know not you know

1:19:24having the ability to realize that you're going to have to make decisions you don't

1:19:30necessarily like every day and it's not easy in this moment it is very very hard our General

1:19:38Assembly is the most powerful General Assembly state legislature in the United States they

1:19:44have an obscene amount of power and if folks really want to change that equation you shouldn't

1:19:49be in this room because this isn't where the decision like that makes happens you need

1:19:53to be in Raleigh you need to be showing up at public comment the same way you show up

1:19:57here every week you need to be showing up there because if you want the power to change

1:20:03in the state of North Carolina that's the lever you got to push and it's going to take

1:20:07ten years let's be real so I just want to be really honest with folks I don't think

1:20:14I don't govern without transparency even if you don't like the outcome of the decision

1:20:18that I make I want you to understand why I made it so that's kind of the backstory

1:20:24on that contract I remember when it first approached I got on the phone and talked

1:20:29to some some folks across the state who are legislators and you know folks have opinions

1:20:34about checkmate happy to have the conversation around metrics but I will say it is about

1:20:40relationships so it is a little bit challenging yeah thank you this is one where I appreciate

1:20:50hearing that the comments and the dialogue from from my colleagues I agree I think this

1:20:56is a very difficult one to to quantify I feel like the federal government lobbyist is a

1:21:03little bit easier to quantify because of the nature the nature of their work is different

1:21:12and can be different especially potentially next year could be different as it was two

1:21:17years ago it's different so those relationships are different in the way that they operate

1:21:21are different and the way that we can quantify and measure their success is different I

1:21:25do think that there's a lot of gray area here where we can't really we don't really

1:21:29know everything that's happening we're just kind of hoping that we are getting the best

1:21:35bang for our buck so again I appreciate appreciate all the comments I do want to continue to

1:21:43take a very close look at at checkmate and monitor as closely as possible we had other

1:21:54folks who who had responded to the RFP is is this the best way to go I think we always

1:22:01need to be doing that especially with these ongoing contracts but but especially in this

1:22:05case and I appreciate the questions raised by councilmember Burris and councilmember

1:22:12cook raising the issue the cheated I asked a lot of questions in the work session I'm

1:22:19with councilmember cook on this one but but I I think that we need to continue as we

1:22:25move forward to monitor the work that's being done thank you thank you mr. mayor and I'll

1:22:31just say as a newer council member this is the first cycle I've gone through of the

1:22:36legislative process on council and so I appreciate hearing from my colleagues in work session

1:22:43and again today to sort of inform you know my thinking about these relationships and

1:22:48how to sort of maximize and optimize what they can do for us would certainly welcome

1:22:52additional discussion among my colleagues about ways to try and be as clear as possible

1:22:57about metrics I also acknowledge you can't quantify the bad not done and this is quite

1:23:03different than federal lobbying in terms of the kind of return that we can bring back

1:23:07so I think we need to be careful about drawing equivalencies there but I think it's always

1:23:10good to bring a critical eye when we're spending this sort of money and making sure we're

1:23:13getting our money's worth you know I don't sit under joint city or I don't sit under

1:23:19legislative committee I know that's where a lot of these discussions happen with my

1:23:21colleagues who who are most closely situated I would also welcome you know more direct

1:23:27feedback to myself and for all council members but I appreciate that you know I along with

1:23:33my colleagues was able to give input into key issues that I wanted to see represented

1:23:37I felt that was heard I got feedback on that and I do believe we've seen some positive

1:23:45dividends both stopping the bad and promoting the good but definitely we should take a

1:23:48critical eye on this in the coming year and decide if this is the relationship we want

1:23:52to continue and how we want to measure success so thank you thank you I do want to remind

1:23:58folks that legislative committee meetings are open and everyone even whether you are

1:24:03on the committee or not welcome to join and then we can make sure on that committee that

1:24:10some of the updates that they're providing are getting sent to the full council so that's

1:24:14the one next step that I heard the ask around and I just want to make sure that we're closing

1:24:19the loop on that so for those members who can't council members who can't join because

1:24:24of the time then we can make sure to send that information to everyone and just reminding

1:24:31colleagues that those meetings are whether you're on the committee or not it's the same

1:24:33as joint city county those are public meetings thank you thank you you know in democracy

1:24:40there is a lot that goes on in the sausage making process that it's just it's just not

1:24:45attractive you you just want to be able to be free and that includes being able to come

1:24:50and say some things that just it may not make the most sense it may be immature it

1:24:56may be whatever but I want to be able to protect the space where we can always say

1:25:00and do what we need to you know say and do and that goes for folks in the public no

1:25:07matter how it comes off and that goes for here on council as well madam attorney do

1:25:13you know do you have the rating of the lobbying firms in the state by whose rate ranked number

1:25:20one two two three I don't know their specific ranking I do know that checkmate specifically

1:25:27was identified as one of the top lobbying firms in the state and they've recently brought

1:25:31on the norcon legal municipalities as a client in addition to a number of municipalities

1:25:38throughout the state so sometimes I asked a question that I know the answer to but I

1:25:43wanted to come from you but they were ranked the number one lobbying firm in the state

1:25:48of North Carolina and the organizations that work alongside of us to get actual things

1:25:53done or protect us from being damaged even further considering the city votes nearly

1:25:5885 percent Democrat with the super majority in the General Assembly of Republican if you

1:26:04have a number if you have the number one law firm that has all of these partners that

1:26:08are represented along with you where you can get more things in than just what you

1:26:13asking for sometimes the best that we aren't leading on something then you might be making

1:26:18the best choice especially if they're the number one lobbying firm that has relationships

1:26:25with the majority and actually half of their team including their co-part and their co-owner

1:26:30are Democrats so to the students who are here the best thing you can do is be independent

1:26:38thinkers and look at the information that's available to you the easiest thing to do

1:26:44is just be easily influenced and the fact of the matter is we have gone through and

1:26:51combed through and did all of our research on who would be the best option for us and

1:26:57that's who we chose we can virtue signal and just say we're going to get a fully Democratic

1:27:03lobbying firm and go to the super majority of Republicans and then what that would be

1:27:09a bigger waste of money so there's a little logic in this in common sense and I'm going

1:27:16to stand behind the decision that we made because it's backed up by an actual process

1:27:23so not everybody like that but that's just the fact of the matter we have the number

1:27:29one lobbying firm I don't know all of their folks on there but I do know as mayor of

1:27:34this city I do get some communication with them and I want to make sure as stated earlier

1:27:39that they are communicated with the entirety of the council I know that they are speaking

1:27:44two to three times a week with our staff so I'm sure staff is hearing this just let's

1:27:49make sure that we're getting that communication from them those updates to the council to

1:27:54all seven of us so everyone can know I don't think this is innocent I don't think this

1:28:00is just innocently picking out one organization considering I've seen the organization around

1:28:06calling this out but you know I appreciate the the funds that we did get from the federal

1:28:14lobbying firm and I appreciate the damage that was prevented from the state lobbying

1:28:18firm some of the things that are impeded upon the state was actually caused from here

1:28:25in Durham and we know that to be fact and it's affected every municipality across the

1:28:32state and the reason why it hasn't some of our powers have not been fully taken away

1:28:38is because we've had the right relationships in place to prevent that from happening so

1:28:46I'll support this it's easy I think that councilmember burrs your points around just

1:28:53trying to quantify it a bit more I don't think there's anything wrong with having a

1:28:57critical eye it having some expectations I'd welcome that to both to both of the firms

1:29:03we're working with but we're in a very difficult space in this in this state and I'd welcome

1:29:09instead of the energy of us the energy of trying to get us to just waste money maybe

1:29:16we should put our energy and trying to flip the state so we can have a fair chance in

1:29:19Raleigh until then I'll be voting yes for this and of course I'm going to call the

1:29:28question I'll entertain a motion to authorize the city manager to negotiate and execute

1:29:39the contract for state lobbying services we'll check make government relations LLC

1:29:43and an amount not to exceed $480,000 second moved and properly seconded quick discussion

1:29:52colleagues feel free to vote this doesn't determine anything our quick question one

1:29:56more time for you do we know about the average that people are paying for cities our size

1:30:02I'm sorry would you do you know about the average of what people are paying around

1:30:06our size cities I do know that Charlotte I believe pays more for their lobbying services

1:30:14than the city of Durham I don't know the average but I can find that information out

1:30:19about what the average lobbying amount is I do know that almost every major municipality

1:30:26North Carolina does have a lobbyist on retainer when we did do the RFP that was one of the

1:30:34first tasks that we did do was reach out to all of the large municipalities to see

1:30:40who did and we were the only ones that did not have a lobbying firm on on retainer thank

1:30:46you and attorney miles it'd be good to have that like per capita some kind of to sort

1:30:50of adjust for population just get a sense of that would be great yes we can absolutely

1:30:54do that research for you and provide that thank you and of course please close the

1:30:58vote and the motion passes four to three with council members Baker burrs and cook

1:31:06voting thank you I'll also entertain a motion to authorize the city manager to negotiate

1:31:10and execute the contract for federal lobbying services with the Ferguson group LLC Washington

1:31:15DC and an amount not to exceed three hundred and forty six thousand dollars so moved so

1:31:20again moved and probably seconded by the clerk please open to vote please close the

1:31:25vote and the motion passes unanimously thank you all right oh we're ready for our first

1:31:33public hearing consolidated annexation MIS Durham headquarters to thank you mayor mayor

1:31:41Williams mayor Bertim Caballero honorable council members good evening I'm Andy Lester

1:31:46with the planning department let's go to booth you all tonight before I begin staff

1:31:50like to state for the record that all planning department hearing items have been advertised

1:31:55and noticed in accordance with state and local law and affidavits of all notices are

1:31:59on file at the planning department a request for utility extension agreement voluntary

1:32:03annexation initial zoning map change has been received from Casey Booth with Mid-Atlantic

1:32:09surveying and engineering PLLC for one parcel of land and associated right of way totally

1:32:14totaling nine point eight oh two acres and located at thirty four twenty nine industrial

1:32:20drive this annex annexation petition is not contiguous to the primary corporate limits

1:32:25but is contiguous to an existing satellite portion of the city the applicant proposes

1:32:31to keep this current zoning designation of industrial light which the city must establish

1:32:36within its jurisdiction through a direct translation the applicant proposes this annexation in

1:32:42order to connect to city utilities as a reminder a direct translational zoning is one in which

1:32:49the existing county zoning is translated to the identical city zoning district upon

1:32:54the annexation of the property into the city limits a translational zoning does not and

1:32:59cannot include a development plan and any future development may proceed according to

1:33:03what the zoning would allow the properties are currently designated the general industrial

1:33:08and recreation open space on the place type map the proposed industrial light zoning

1:33:13is generally consistent with the designated place types and if those proposed zoning

1:33:17is approved there is no change to the place type map thank you staff the applicant are

1:33:22available for any questions thank you you've heard the staff report are there any questions

1:33:28technical questions or comments for staff councilmember cook thank you um just to well

1:33:34actually i'm gonna two and a half will you speak up a little bit more um and then thank

1:33:39you uh so my two questions are can you just tell me the um the requirements for recreational

1:33:46on open space the place type map there's there's really no requirements for recreation

1:33:53open space um it's just a place type map that recommends um protection of certain environmental

1:34:00features um the place type map generally includes all floodplain within the city as

1:34:07designated um yeah if you if you could just talk right into it that'll help how's this

1:34:14much better fantastic um so yeah the recreation open space generally denotes the floodplain

1:34:21that's within the city and a large area of natural heritage areas are recreation open

1:34:28space as well in terms of planning consistency if it's generally in the floodplain there's

1:34:33already udo protections for that and any annexation is considered consistent with

1:34:38it and then can you talk about the additional floodplain protections that we have yeah

1:34:43so article eight um is the environmental section of the udo and there is a litany of

1:34:49things you can and cannot do within the floodplain and so if there's any development within

1:34:53the floodplain um they would have to get a floodplain permit at the time of site plan

1:34:59okay and so this fits the recreation and open space simply because it's got a floodplain

1:35:05that's going to remain undisturbed due to protections on it and why why else would

1:35:11it be generally consistent with that place type because there is built-in protections

1:35:18within the udo um it does not limit what you can do in the floodplain that'd be taking

1:35:24for the most part um so there are things that you could do within the floodplain within

1:35:29the udo um but as a policy um we found we find proposed annexations consistent with

1:35:38ros place type okay i'm gonna probably follow up on that line of questioning with the next

1:35:45case too but i'm interested in this the consistency with recreation and open space if we have

1:35:51requirements in the udo that are going to make everything consistent that it seems

1:35:56kind of strange to me that we would then have it be designated on the place type map and

1:36:01then have a conversation about consistency right if the if the udo requirements in themselves

1:36:07sort of require the consistency with that place type map designation do you see what

1:36:13i'm saying i'll defer to good evening sarah young with the planning department councilmember

1:36:27cook i completely understand this is actually one of the points of conversation that we

1:36:32had when we were developing the comprehensive plan about whether or not to even designate

1:36:36these areas specifically since there are protections that require um the special treatment

1:36:41of these environmental areas but the decision was made at the time to both designate them

1:36:46um but still evaluate them so that is certainly happy to continue to have a follow-up conversation

1:36:52about that moving forward but i want to give you the background as to why thank you those

1:36:57are my questions thanks go ahead one question for you um you mentioned that there cannot

1:37:08be development plans in direct translational zoning cases uh why why is that because essentially

1:37:17a translational is a general zoning meaning it is you're looking at the the complete

1:37:23range of uses in a general zoning and the translational is just taking um the base zoning

1:37:31district from the county to the city and then that's all it is look if they wanted

1:37:36to add a development plan they couldn't um if they wanted to do it at this point they'd

1:37:40have to go back through planning right but if they if they had initially uh they could

1:37:45do it industrial light with a textual graphic development plan okay and that's uh the conditional

1:37:50zoning okay because that's our mechanism for being able to uh ensure greater accountability

1:37:56to the comprehensive plan yeah that's one one and without the development plan we can

1:38:03that's why we're looking at the range of uses yeah okay sure all right thank you so

1:38:12at this time i'll declare the public hearing open um mr go show you no mr part oh i see

1:38:29larry barker we're gonna sit down on this sheet we're gonna figure it out good evening

1:38:40council members thank you uh i'm sorry how much time do you think you need uh 35 seconds

1:38:49all right we'll put we'll put five minutes on the clock thank you i'm uh larry barker

1:38:53i'm part of the applicant team we've worked with staff and uh prepared this the contractor

1:38:59is planning to build a building here to use uh for their purposes they've been in the

1:39:04business in in Durham working for 25 years out of a couple of leased facilities so they're

1:39:09building a warehouse uh area to work out of consolidate their businesses any questions

1:39:24uh we'll we'll come back to that all right i have speakers virtually a dare of salt

1:39:31that's for item 24 this is the only you just had a resource person there are no other

1:39:38speakers for this oh okay okay i see all right the yellow is confusing me here sorry

1:39:50i'll come to your office we'll lay it out so i can follow it better thank you you really

1:39:56just needed 35 seconds uh all right there are no speakers for this uh colleagues are

1:40:03any questions for the applicant all right at this time i'll declare the public hearing

1:40:07closed and back before the council yeah yeah i'm just gonna make uh one comment um just

1:40:15a general comment not specific to this one uh i do we get a we've gotten a decent number

1:40:21of these direct translational rezoning cases with annexations um over the past several

1:40:27months um and it really hamstrings our ability to ensure greater accountability and consistency

1:40:33with the comprehensive plan sorry i'm so sorry is this pertaining to this item okay

1:40:41this is a direct translational rezoning case okay yeah um and so my hope moving forward

1:40:48is that um when applicants like like this one uh come and submit an application for

1:40:56a direct translational rezoning case that they are encouraged to uh include a uh a development

1:41:02plan with it because i think that that's a really really critical tool for us to be

1:41:07able to ensure greater accountability to to the public and better development that's

1:41:14all thank you mayor prozum thank you i would like to have um not here but would love to

1:41:19have an analysis by staff about whether that goes beyond the scope of our power because

1:41:24of its base zoning and it's just including a it's going from a annexation the base zoning

1:41:31is the same so um yeah if if that makes sense yeah i just want to clarify that a translational

1:41:40zoning we talked about the zoning piece but really it's only an annexation request there

1:41:46is no zoning request it's just by state law um municipality has to apply a zoning district

1:41:52when they annex property so i think that is uh just a clarification i want to make for

1:41:58the record that's why some folks choose not to do that because the only thing they're

1:42:02actually asking for is annexation right and that was my understanding of it for many years

1:42:06um a lot of times what we see most often actually are just one or two homes the folks

1:42:12just really want access to city water and i just don't believe at the end of the day

1:42:17that we should be putting a lot of onus on those kinds of property owners um that's a

1:42:22fundamental belief of mine uh if it's a maybe a more affluent one i'm willing to have that

1:42:28conversation but i'm not interested in essentially taxing the bejesus out of small uh individual

1:42:35property owners um i think it's unfair and it's one of the reasons people don't like

1:42:40government thank you thank you may i respond yeah i i agree if it's a one or two small

1:42:52property owners i completely agree translation rezoning just an annexation if we are talking

1:42:58about some of the large ones we had a 30 acre case um i think that that is uh a critical

1:43:04opportunity for us to encourage uh use of the development plan thank you all right there

1:43:14are no more questions or comments i will call our question here and entertain a motion

1:43:19to adopt an ordinance annexing ms durham headquarters two into the city of durham into

1:43:26authorize the city manager to enter into a utility extension agreement with dtm properties

1:43:30of durham loc so moved second move the property second madam clerk please open to vote madam

1:43:35clerk please close to vote and the motion passes unanimously thank you and i'll also

1:43:41entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance amending the unified development ordinance by taking

1:43:47property out of the industrial light falls jordan district b watershed protection overlay

1:43:52county jurisdiction and establishing the same as industrial light falls jordan b jordan

1:43:57district b watershed protection overlay overlay city jurisdiction so moved second move the

1:44:04property second and madam clerk please open to vote please close the vote and the motion

1:44:08passes unanimously and i'll entertain a motion to adopt a consistency statement as required

1:44:15by north Carolina general statute section 160 d-605 so moved second move the property

1:44:21second madam clerk please open to vote and close to vote motion passes unanimously some

1:44:27of these words just don't go together in the english language are we ready yep ready

1:44:36fantastic um item number 24 thank you it's probably going to be difficult to read also

1:44:44thank you a request for utility extension agreement voluntary annexation an initial

1:44:49zoning map change has been received from jeremy anderson thomas and hutton for non-parcels

1:44:53of land totally land and associated right of way totaling 12.224 acres and located

1:44:59between wake forest highway and valley del drive this annexation petition is not contiguous

1:45:04to the primary corporate limits but it's contiguous to an existing satellite portion

1:45:07of the city as part of the application the applicant is seeking to change the zoning

1:45:12district from commercial neighborhoods residential rural and residential suburban 20 to plan

1:45:17development residential 18.410 to to allow up to 200 apartments and townhouses the properties

1:45:24are currently designated suburban commercial apartment and townhouse neighborhood established

1:45:30residential and recreation and open space on the place type map the proposed pdr 18.410

1:45:36zoning is generally consistent with the apartment and townhouse neighborhood established residential

1:45:41and recreation and open space place types however the proposal is inconsistent with

1:45:47the suburban commercial place type if the proposal proposed zoning is approved staff

1:45:52recommends to change the place type map to designate the suburban commercial portion

1:45:56of the property as apartment townhouse neighborhood thank you staff and the applicant are available

1:46:01for any questions thank you you've heard the staff report councilmember cook i'm just

1:46:07going to re-ask the question that i asked last time can you explain why this is consistent

1:46:11with the recreation and open space designation sure outside of following the udo standards

1:46:20or the requirements from the udo for the floodplain the graphic development plan illustrates

1:46:26building and parking envelopes outside of the floodplain and because they are limiting

1:46:33their range of potential impacts to the floodplain that is how is it that is how it is consistent

1:46:38with the ros place type thank you thanks all right no other comments questions i will

1:46:47now declare the public hearing open how much time do you think you need all right please

1:46:54put seven minutes on the clock welcome all right i'm just gonna move the mic i'm not

1:47:04very tall uh good evening mayor williams mayor pro tem caboero and members of the

1:47:09city council i've not been in chambers for a while if you don't remember me i'm neil

1:47:12gosh attorney at the morning star law group uh and i'm here on behalf of the owner and

1:47:17applicants for this annexation rezoning request along with jeremy anderson with thomas and

1:47:21hut uh this assemblage is made up of about nine parcels totaling just under 11 acres

1:47:26the zoning we're seeking would allow the property to be to be developed with a mix of apartments

1:47:31and townhomes the density would be a little bit north of 18 dwelling units per acre um

1:47:37which would allow for a total of 200 units we have committed to a minimum of 12 percent

1:47:41of the units being townhomes uh this property is across the street from oak grove elementary

1:47:47and right next to the oaks crossing shopping center where there's a transit stop and when

1:47:52you look at that you know kind of in the abstract i think this is the type of infrastructure

1:47:57where dense residential infill development is desirable i don't want to oversell the

1:48:02walkability because at the end of the day uh this property fronts onto highway 98 which

1:48:08well i mean it's a highway but uh with the commitment that we have in the development

1:48:13plan to connect to the offsite sidewalk there will at least be safe walkability to transit

1:48:18and restaurants um this project has a graphic development plan which i know isn't necessarily

1:48:24what that common these days but there are a couple things i want to point out on the

1:48:29development plan first there are two points of access onto highway 98 both of those will

1:48:35be restricted to right in right out um there's another possible point of access on the valley

1:48:40dale that would be an optional access point that may or may not get built while it would

1:48:46that access point would provide for a full access movement for the development it also

1:48:51requires a left turn lane on uh on 98 so ultimately it'll be up to the developer to

1:48:56decide if they want that access or not you can also see there is no stream on the property

1:49:01but there is one close by and the riparian buffer for that stream overlaps onto this

1:49:06property we're not going to be getting within 100 feet of that offsite stream meaning there

1:49:10are no impacts to the riparian buffer also our building and parking envelope do not

1:49:16include any of the floodplain or environmentally sensitive areas on the property in fact other

1:49:21than the riparian buffer and the floodplain there are no environmentally sensitive features

1:49:26on the on the site no wetlands no steep slopes no floodway as has been noted this project

1:49:32has committed to handling the 100 year storm event at the existing culvert at valley dale

1:49:36drive we had heard um from area residents concerns about flooding in this area and it's

1:49:44a problem and it's not necessarily that's not necessarily surprising given that there

1:49:48is floodplain in this area and some things were in fact built in the floodplain prior

1:49:53probably to floodplain regulations but um we wanted to we wanted to try to do what

1:50:01we can to address the existing problem and you know if that road is getting flooded

1:50:05out or something like that that also isn't beneficial for this development just generally

1:50:11we've committed to a maximum pervious of 65 percent which is lower than what the udo would

1:50:16allow and uh we've committed to green building techniques we've also committed to 15 percent

1:50:21of the units being accessible now i want to touch on affordable housing we've committed

1:50:25to five percent of the units being affordable tonight we're going to increase that commitment

1:50:30to eight percent but i want to be clear about something our client has made every effort

1:50:35to improve this project every step of the way based off feedback they get from planning

1:50:39commission from staff from the community we know that there were multiple concerns

1:50:44raised by various people and we looked into all those concerns at the end of the day

1:50:48squeezing three percent more affordable units into the into the budget for this project

1:50:53seemed to us to be the best place to to focus eight percent is a very strong commitment

1:50:59that not every project will be able to achieve but you know i for one think that we should

1:51:05strive to achieve it on any project where it might be possible even if it means certain

1:51:09other concerns might not get addressed i guess what i'm saying is there are trade-offs

1:51:15and on my ledger affordable housing is usually going to win every time especially because

1:51:21it's not really possible on all projects i think that in in a nutshell tells you what

1:51:28this development is about this client has made like i said every effort to improve

1:51:32the project they've been open to feedback and we've really sharpened their pencil on

1:51:37this appreciate being here tonight and you all considering this we look forward to having

1:51:42conversation and hearing your questions we'll try to answer those as well thank you all

1:51:53right thank you i'll start with my virtual speakers adair salt hello hello can you hear

1:52:07me yes ma'am welcome you have three minutes thank you so much my name is the deer salt

1:52:13and i'm a resident of the growth park community which is about a half a mile away from where

1:52:19this property sits i will admit before i start i'm i'm defeated i feel defeated i

1:52:26feel disgusted because i think i just heard the same speech a couple of weeks ago about

1:52:32a property on robins road uh from mr gosh so i will start by saying i um i recognize

1:52:44that growth is coming and and i'm not even really here to ask you to stop it i'm not

1:52:49sure that i can but i am asking that growth be accompanied by appropriate protections

1:52:56for the existing residents our roads are congested our schools are crowded it took us six years

1:53:03to get a stoplight at the entrance of the growth park community on nine a public safety

1:53:10emergency response stormwater infrastructure all of these are already under increasing

1:53:15strain you all are aware of that yet we continue approving additional density without first

1:53:21identifying how we're going to how these systems are going to be expanded and how improvements

1:53:28will occur and who's going to bear the cost so i believe that our current city and county

1:53:36residents the county residents matter a lot as well should not be expected to subsidize

1:53:43the long-term impacts of these new developments in this new development if a project creates

1:53:49additional demands on the roads and the schools and everything else then the developer should

1:53:54be required to contribute its fair share toward the necessary improvements improvements growth

1:54:00is not the issue but unfunded growth around here is the issue responsible growth requires

1:54:07responsible planning and responsible planning means ensuring that growth pays for growth

1:54:12and we don't always see that so if this project is approved i ask the council please to ensure

1:54:22that growth pays for the infrastructure necessary to support that growth that could include

1:54:27things like roadway improvements public safety support school related improvements all of

1:54:34the schools in our district are many years old and are already way overcrowded um they

1:54:40need improvements stormwater upgrades and other contributions that directly address

1:54:46the impacts that would be created by this development we should not ever approve density

1:54:53first and hope the infrastructure catches up later um thank you for the opportunity

1:55:00to speak i appreciate it thank you so much miss salt next i have russell florac florac

1:55:19if you can unmute yourself madam clerk are you able to unmute them it seems he logged

1:55:43off mr mayor um i i have tameka patterson okay i'll go to the next person tameka patterson

1:55:50good evening mayor and council members my name is tameka patterson and i live across

1:55:55the street from 3815 wake forest highway um i'm here to ask you to vote no on motions

1:56:02one two and three regarding um 3815 wake forest road annexation on june 9th the planning

1:56:09commission voted to recommend denial and they issued this explicit finding the planning

1:56:15commission finds that the ordinance requested is not consistent with the adopted comprehensive

1:56:20plan the commission believes the request is not reasonable and is not in the public

1:56:25interest and recommends the denial based on comments received at the public hearing and

1:56:30the information in the staff report i urge the council to uphold the advisory board's

1:56:37recommendation based on um some key reasons one um jumping from rural zoning to pdr 18.401

1:56:49which would permit up to 200 units without a complete traffic impact analysis adds hundreds

1:56:58of daily trips onto wake forest highway without studying the required infrastructure um mitigations

1:57:06um allowing structures up to five stories tall directly across from and beside single

1:57:13family homes destroys the neighboring privacy um without any type of height step downs to

1:57:19two to three stories or any type of landscape buffers um this density completely breaks

1:57:26the corridor's character um not to mention high density construction inside the sensitive

1:57:32um falls in jordan watershed overlay district b it just it increases the one-off risk um

1:57:40so we need some strict storm water controls some binding construction management and structural

1:57:47inspections so that neighboring properties are not subjected to um these issues and

1:57:56um as far as i heard dlt has said they're not making any changes to this road as it

1:58:03is so the increase in traffic will be what we're seeing an increase to what we've already

1:58:11seen over the last few years thank you so much thank you for your comments mr patterson

1:58:18uh katie ross hello welcome you have three minutes this is katie ross from bahima uh

1:58:33so uh my first point i i'm repeating myself from many times but repetition is the way

1:58:41people learn so maybe i'll get lucky this time durham does not need 200 more apartments

1:58:46and townhouses according to reliable unbiased research durham needs 50 000 new housings

1:58:52under the mtp projections or 60 000 under the obm new housing units to be built over

1:58:5930 years starting 2020 ending in 2030 or 2035 depending on which of those projections you

1:59:06follow that works out under the mtp to 1500 units per year and under the obm projections

1:59:14to 2000 per year in less than six years the durham city council alone has approved 32 838

1:59:23new dwelling units more than half the maximum 30 year projected need the approval average

1:59:30per year since 2020 by the council alone is 5473 and 2026 is only three quarters complete

1:59:40the average is the average is of the city council approvals is almost three times the number of new

1:59:47units needed per year to reach the highest need projection of 60 000 new units by 2050

1:59:54now add administrative approvals with administrative approvals added

2:00:00Durham has built, has under construction, has already approved more new housing units

2:00:06in six years than the projected need for 30 to 35 years.

2:00:12Lead Associate Research for Investors reports that there is currently 11.9% vacancy rate

2:00:19for multifamily units in Durham.

2:00:22The vacancy rate has hovered around 12% for several years.

2:00:26That is a glut of apartments.

2:00:29In addition, this property is in the fall, Jordan Watershed Protection Overlay.

2:00:35The land drains directly into critical water sources.

2:00:38Our Triassic basin clay is not absorbent.

2:00:41With the forest cleared, expect flash flooding and slope failures.

2:00:44Hey, what else could go wrong?

2:00:47But others will address that later.

2:00:49This proposal is non-contiguous to the city limits of Durham.

2:00:53It seeks approval through a loophole allowing a new non-contiguous proposal to attach to

2:00:59an existing donut hole or tumor as I see them to create two touching tumors or a larger

2:01:07donut hole tumor.

2:01:09What is the rationale in allowing these originally discouraged donut holes to be indefinitely

2:01:14expanded by adding more and more donut tumors?

2:01:18Theoretically and maybe actually these satellite tumors can be metastasized to eclipse Durham

2:01:23itself.

2:01:25Allowing daisy chain development endangers the definition of our city and allows endless

2:01:30consumption of our dwindling natural resources.

2:01:32Thank you.

2:01:33Thank you, Ms. Ross.

2:01:35Next up I have Sarah Fine.

2:01:36Mr. Mayor, she's not online.

2:01:43Okay.

2:01:44Timothy Smith.

2:01:50Hello.

2:01:51This is Timothy Smith.

2:01:54I live, thank you Mr. Mayor and Council Member for this opportunity to express my opposition

2:02:00to the 3815 Wake Forest Highway annexation.

2:02:08I live right around the corner in the Grove Park neighborhood.

2:02:13I have two concerns.

2:02:15The first is the concern over additional load to our already overstressed sewer system

2:02:23in this area of Durham.

2:02:27And the second is around the safety of that intersection at 98 and South Mineral Springs.

2:02:34Recording stopped.

2:02:35I'll speak to the second because I don't have much expertise in sewer systems.

2:02:46The Oak Grove Elementary School is right across the road from this development and

2:02:52on this busy intersection.

2:02:56But there is no safe crosswalk facilities that exist on this intersection.

2:03:03And as a neighborhood school, there exists no sidewalk in any direction from the school

2:03:08outside of the school's property.

2:03:11This makes walking to school, even if you live across the road or within the block,

2:03:17like I do, to school an impossibility for the children.

2:03:24And in addition to the pedestrian safety, traffic and congestion in this area is already

2:03:31a challenge.

2:03:33And this development will make that worse, specifically the entrance and exit for Oak

2:03:41Grove Elementary.

2:03:42Car pickup and drop off is directly opposite where the development proposes their entrance.

2:03:50And I did hear that they propose right only entrance and right only exit.

2:03:57But that is still an issue of traffic flow as there's already backed up cars trying

2:04:08to get turning a right into the elementary, exiting as a right only from elementary,

2:04:15the elementary school, and also trying to take the left into the elementary school

2:04:21drop off zone, which does get backed up into the road often, specifically during pickup.

2:04:30So thank you for your time.

2:04:32Thank you so much.

2:04:35Sarah Fine?

2:04:43Hi, can you hear me?

2:04:44Yes.

2:04:46Right.

2:04:47You have three minutes.

2:04:49Thanks.

2:04:50I wanted to also express my concern around the proposed new residences along Wake Forest

2:04:55Highway.

2:04:56I'm not against additional housing in Durham and development overall, but I feel like

2:05:02this location will contribute to a traffic nightmare.

2:05:06My backyard actually backs up to Valleydale Drive, which runs along this proposed area.

2:05:11And we have two young children at Oak Grove Elementary, which is right across the street

2:05:16from this proposed area.

2:05:18Every day we drive our two children to Oak Grove Elementary.

2:05:22And I think that this proposal negatively impacts the safety of our children and our

2:05:26families.

2:05:28We regularly see traffic accidents at the corner of Wake Forest Highway and Mineral

2:05:32Springs.

2:05:33And I have seen many near accidents as families transport their children to and from school.

2:05:40The main entrance to this elementary school is right there across the street from this

2:05:44proposed site.

2:05:46I cannot imagine having to navigate the daily task of school carpool with the significantly

2:05:52increased car traffic that would naturally come with this proposal.

2:05:57We just want to keep our kids safe.

2:05:59I would ask that council members drive to our school between 715 and 745 in the morning

2:06:05as well as at 215 in the afternoon when school lets out to just come and see how congested

2:06:11this space already feels.

2:06:15And I heard at the beginning of this meeting mentioned by council member Nate Baker that

2:06:19it's a beautiful thing when our roads can be for people and not just for traffic.

2:06:25We are really far from that out here in Easter and I have significant concerns that this

2:06:31proposal would make that problem much, much worse.

2:06:35Thank you.

2:06:38Thank you.

2:06:41And Tonita Jones-Austin.

2:06:42She's not in the queue, Mr. Mayor.

2:06:47All right.

2:06:48The Russell Florek.

2:06:49Come back.

2:06:52Okay.

2:06:54Those are all of our in-person virtual speakers.

2:06:56I'll now move to in-person.

2:07:01I'm going to call up so that you can just queue up.

2:07:05Michael Harris, Lukaku, Jacqueline Nelson Harris, Pam Andrews, Donna Standback, Ava

2:07:21Pearson, Tammy Salalia, Tana Motley Pearson.

2:07:29You can all queue up.

2:07:30Thank you.

2:07:32Welcome.

2:07:34You have three minutes.

2:07:36Welcome, Mr. Mayor.

2:07:37City Council.

2:07:38I'm back again to give you another disapproval of this project that is trying to spring up

2:07:49in the area of Oak Grove Parkway.

2:07:52As I was here once before, Oak Grove community already expressed and exists with multiple

2:08:02traffic areas on Oak Grove as well as Highway 98.

2:08:08It is impossible at some times of the day to be able to move around, especially when

2:08:15you're thinking about the elementary school, there is no sidewalks on either side where

2:08:22this project might want to be built.

2:08:28So I'm opposed for this annex that the developer has want to present and place in our neighborhood.

2:08:37I'm hoping that we can see that over on Olive Branch, which there's about nine different

2:08:45developments going on, and Olive Branch basically runs into Highway 98.

2:08:50Once those facilities are built, the traffic is going to be tremendous on 98.

2:08:56We only have two grocery stores that right now that are serving that whole community.

2:09:04We need perhaps that more than anything is to have another grocery store that could

2:09:10be built somewhere nearby.

2:09:12We do not need another addition of 200 available apartments to be existing on that area in

2:09:21which is now trying to disrupt the flow of traffic that is already disrupted.

2:09:27So other than that, I can say that by looking at the watershed and the sewer, the news

2:09:37observer made a report several weeks ago about how the Goose Creek sewer basin has

2:09:47reached capacity and therefore the growth cannot continue until that incident has improved.

2:09:56So the same thing that's going to happen in our area, the water is going to be limited

2:10:01to a lot of the homes that have already been there for several years, the sewers that

2:10:07now that's beginning to react in that area.

2:10:10So I would suggest to the committee and City Council to reject this proposal due to the

2:10:21fact that the overgrowth is going to basically hurt this community and other communities

2:10:27around us.

2:10:28Thank you.

2:10:32Thank you.

2:10:38Next.

2:10:39Good evening, Mr. Mayor.

2:10:40Mayor Williams, City Council members, thank you for having us here tonight and to speak

2:10:42on this issue of annexing this rural residential property.

2:10:48I'm a resident of Oak Grove, I back up right to Valleydale Drive, I can walk straight out

2:10:54of my house and end up on Valleydale Drive and for the residents of Valleydale Drive

2:10:58that have been on the calls and listening to what's being planned in this area, I truly

2:11:05speaking for them and the residents of Oak Grove in this case where Valleydale is a very

2:11:09small street.

2:11:10The traffic on Valleydale surprisingly is really exponential, there's a lot of cars

2:11:15that use it as a pass through.

2:11:17When the conversation around what's planning to happen with this development and the optionality

2:11:24of building an exit point on Valleydale, the question of what do you plan to do with the

2:11:28road comes up and the answer is that's not in scope, they just plan to potentially put

2:11:34an exit there.

2:11:35So that's one concern that we have coming out of this.

2:11:39You have 200 apartments that are planning to come up entering a very, very busy street

2:11:43where there are kids, there are school buses that come through there all the time and

2:11:48there really is no plan at sidewalks, there's no plan to do much on Valleydale.

2:11:52That's one issue but the second piece is the traffic on 98 as it stands today, planning

2:11:56to build a right only, right entry for this apartment complex, for the people that live

2:12:04in Oak Grove, as you can imagine, if you can't make that turn making a left then what

2:12:09do you do?

2:12:10You go down the street to make a U-turn at the light and that is one scenario that I

2:12:16can see playing out where, how do you account for that?

2:12:20Where people will naturally, only people going into Oak Grove are people that go to Oak Grove,

2:12:24now you have to account for the people that are just trying to get around so they can

2:12:27make the right hand turn into their apartment complex.

2:12:31That is a real concern of ours.

2:12:35As the previous residents stated before, the area of 98 doesn't really need another housing

2:12:43complex at the moment.

2:12:44There's construction taking place on Mineral Springs where Inca Ridge is being built,

2:12:48there's construction all the way down, all the branch, there's construction around all

2:12:52the branch on Sheraton Road or Sheriff Road.

2:12:56So we have a lot of construction of homes, single family townhomes being built around

2:13:02us at the moment where another kind of piece of land being occupied to do something right

2:13:08across the street from Oak Grove Elementary just seems out of place at the moment.

2:13:13I would love to see the development come to fruition as some of the stats were being

2:13:18listed earlier of seeing people move into those places and then justify the need for

2:13:24more housing versus just building.

2:13:26We've already had in our community where we have community on one side and another side

2:13:32of the kind of Link Lake connection there where our pond went into.

2:13:41Thank you.

2:13:43Thank you.

2:13:44Could you pronounce your name for the record for me?

2:13:45Ookaku.

2:13:46Ookaku.

2:13:47Ookaku.

2:13:57Okay, got it.

2:13:58Thank you.

2:14:00Hello, my name is Jacqueline Nelson Harris and I reside at Oak Grove Parkway, Durham,

2:14:04right off of Highway 98.

2:14:05Ms. Jacqueline, could you hold on one second, Ms. Pam, that's going to help you out.

2:14:20I'm here tonight to respectfully oppose Agenda 24 concerning the proposed annexation and

2:14:28rezoning along Wake Forest Highway and Valley Gail Drive.

2:14:35This proposal will allow up to 200 residential units on approximately 12 acres.

2:14:42My concern is the accumulative impact on the development on traffic schools, infrastructure

2:14:50and our existing neighborhoods.

2:14:53My greatest concern, along with everyone else, is traffic.

2:14:58There are already four developments right now being built off of Sharon Road, which

2:15:03feeds into Highway 98.

2:15:07The same developer has also proposed a hotel and an entertainment center off of Robbins

2:15:14Road, which also feeds off the Highway 98.

2:15:19These developments cannot be considered one at a time.

2:15:23They all add traffic to the same roadway system.

2:15:29I'm also concerned about our schools.

2:15:32We do not have enough schools capacity to support the number of school-age children

2:15:38that would be impacted by all of this new growth.

2:15:41Our existing infrastructure is already under pressure.

2:15:47In my own home, I experienced diminished water pressure during the evening hours.

2:15:54How will our water system handle even more growth?

2:15:58I am also concerned about Valley Dail Drive stormwater drainage and flooding.

2:16:05These issues need to be addressed with clear enforceable requirements, not just a promise.

2:16:15Currently when I am going to the grocery store, which is approximately a half a mile,

2:16:21if I don't go before 3 o'clock, it will take me a half an hour to get there.

2:16:28How would you feel if you lived in this community and had to live with cumulative effects of

2:16:36our growth every day?

2:16:39I respectfully oppose agenda item 24.

2:16:44Please consider the overall impact of this proposal and protect the safety of our school's

2:16:51infrastructure and quality of life of the residents who already live there.

2:16:58Thank you.

2:17:01Thank you, Ms. Chuckler, just to make sure I have Wanda Allen, Jason Sloan, Rebecca Freeman

2:17:19as well.

2:17:21Pablo Freeman.

2:17:35Good evening, everybody.

2:17:37Stormwater comments indicated a contamination plume advisory.

2:17:41There is a history of site contamination on 3718 Holloway Street.

2:17:45The site is listed on the DEQ incident number 9992.

2:17:49The contamination plume may or may not be located on your property.

2:17:52The applicant said understood.

2:17:55This is in your stormwater report that they received.

2:17:58Next.

2:17:59Dr. Brittany Maduro at the first neighborhood meeting asked about the NCDQ incident.

2:18:04What specific tests have been done to determine whether grading, runoff or future stormwater

2:18:08controls could move contamination toward Little Lake Creek downstream properties or

2:18:13nearby wells?

2:18:15Has site specific testing been done?

2:18:17There was no response.

2:18:18October 1992, the hydrologist states the groundwater was found to have been impacted

2:18:25at this site where the destruction happened at incident 9992.

2:18:30The groundwater contamination plume has been defined in up gradient and down gradient directions.

2:18:35Next.

2:18:37Actually, let me go back.

2:18:42There are currently five active tanks, underground storage tanks on this site, one 8,000 gallon

2:18:47unleaded, one 6,000 gallon unleaded, one 3,000 gallon kerosene, two 4,000 gallon tanks

2:18:54containing unleaded and diesel fuel on this site, across or adjacent to this property.

2:19:00Next.

2:19:02December 1992, an active leak was found.

2:19:05Groundwater monitoring wells were established in the plume.

2:19:08Monitoring is ongoing for groundwater contamination next to this development site.

2:19:12Notice this site is in this plume.

2:19:16Next.

2:19:17The groundwater storage tanks themselves were northeast of the building, putting them even

2:19:21closer to the proposed site.

2:19:24The proposed site is about 500 feet from this spill.

2:19:28Next.

2:19:29December 2025, letter states, "Records indicate that the incident has been classified as high

2:19:35risk."

2:19:36The last document required updated risk information, including an updated receptor survey where

2:19:42redevelopment in the area could change the outcome.

2:19:45Has either been done?

2:19:47Has an environmental assessment been completed?

2:19:50Has soil or water around these residential homes within the status radius plume been

2:19:54completed, especially to the four neighboring active wells to this annexation case?

2:20:00Little Lake Creek is within the plume site as well, which runs behind Valley Deal Drive

2:20:04as it makes its way to Falls Lake.

2:20:07Has the applicant provided sufficient information in the public record for council to make

2:20:11an informed legislative decision tonight?

2:20:14Now whether this rezoning is reasonable or in the public interest, it does not sound

2:20:21like the harm is contained.

2:20:22It's not in the NCD-EQ records.

2:20:25Please research them.

2:20:27Why would we disturb this plume when there is a chance that we could put contaminated

2:20:31soil already in wells that are still being checked as high risk?

2:20:38Please don't do this.

2:20:46Tammy Sawaya, my address is on record.

2:20:48I want to continue on and talk about the contamination of the site.

2:20:54You'll see here the development, and you'll see the high-risk active site where there

2:21:00was leakage.

2:21:02I want to point you to in November 2022, there is this result from a Valley Deal well, contaminated

2:21:10well at 3004.

2:21:13What you're going to see, it's going to be hard to show there, but MTBE 3.3, it was

2:21:19detected.

2:21:20So what does MTBE harmful effects could be?

2:21:26Agencies consider it to be a contaminant of concern.

2:21:29Long-term effects, it affects the nervous system, liver and kidney and animals, possible

2:21:35cancer concerns.

2:21:37If the contamination groundwater is beneath a building, there is a risk of vapor intrusion

2:21:42through the soil and into the air.

2:21:44What does that mean?

2:21:46That means indoor air exposure, and that can cause headaches, dizziness, irritation

2:21:51to eyes and lungs.

2:21:54So I also want to point out that groundwater results from DEQ on September 1st and 23 collection

2:22:01sites from five wells indicated that the presence of petroleum hydrocarbon compounds

2:22:07above the North Carolina two-level groundwater quality standards, and it has been consistently

2:22:15repeated the same results.

2:22:17There are several other toxic compounds from wells adjacent to the 3815 site.

2:22:24So the key takeaway is that there is ongoing groundwater contamination next to this site.

2:22:30If there's nothing available to this site, we need to find out if there is.

2:22:36Staff reviewed specifically advised that the contamination plume associated with this

2:22:41incident, 9992 at DEQ, may or may not extend to this property.

2:22:46And the documented application was, documented applicant's response was understood.

2:22:51An applicant later asserted at the Planning Commission hearing that the contamination

2:22:56does not exist on this property by itself.

2:23:00Does that resolve the concern?

2:23:02How can they make this statement?

2:23:03What reports, what testings or agency findings prove that there is no harm in this site?

2:23:12And since the extent of the plume has not been established, cancels should ask themselves,

2:23:18would they like to learn more about this site?

2:23:21Would this affect the zoning decision, the appropriate development intensity, or development

2:23:26plan commitments or other measures?

2:23:29You shouldn't approve this now.

2:23:32Administrative review later cannot substitute for good information now before you make

2:23:37the decision.

2:23:38At the minimum, please ask the developer to proffer to have conduct onsite groundwater

2:23:44monitoring environmental impact assessments before disturbing the ground.

2:23:48Thank you.

2:23:54I'm Wanda Allen, and address is on file.

2:23:58Take a look at this slide.

2:24:00This slide shows the Little Lick Creek floodplain, and you can see the Little Lick Creek runs

2:24:08directly through the area.

2:24:10The red area is where the proposed apartments would be built, and the star identifies the

2:24:17contamination site.

2:24:19This is important because the proposed development is immediately adjacent to the flood area

2:24:27and the Little Lick Creek plume area.

2:24:30There are also residents in this area who rely on private wells for their drinking water,

2:24:38so we have several things coming together in one location.

2:24:42We have flooding, a contaminated site, proposed departments, Little Lick Creek flowing into

2:24:50Falls Lake, and residents who depend on well water, documented, I said documented, by NCDEC

2:24:58contamination.

2:24:59And yes, there is a Oak Grove Elementary School right across from that.

2:25:06Next.

2:25:07Okay.

2:25:08We've heard about flooding.

2:25:09We know this is in a flooding area.

2:25:11Look at the photo.

2:25:13These photos tell the story.

2:25:21There's another photo here that shows continuous flooding.

2:25:26Another photo, please.

2:25:28Look at this one.

2:25:29This is flowing into Falls Lake downstream.

2:25:32This is where this apartment site is going to be.

2:25:37The area floods, you guys.

2:25:39The area floods.

2:25:41There's even a sign on Mental Spring Road that says "High Water Area," warning flooding.

2:25:49There is NCDEC contaminated site nearby.

2:25:54Little Lick Creek carries the water into Falls Lake, and the people in the area rely on well

2:26:00water, which Tammy just showed you have been contaminated.

2:26:07Adding a large apartment development to this area adds to another impact to high risk.

2:26:14Use the data.

2:26:16Use the information that you have.

2:26:18DUQ documents, you've got the website there.

2:26:22Use this information.

2:26:23Do not approve this development.

2:26:28Mayor Pro Tem and Council Members, my name is Rebecca Freeman, and my address is on

2:26:36file.

2:26:37According to Durham Public Schools Transportation, students living less than a mile from their

2:26:43assigned school are walkers.

2:26:45This site for this development is .1-tenths of a mile from the site.

2:26:51So, that means 28 elementary school students must walk from this development to Oak Grove

2:26:57Elementary School.

2:26:58The development and the school are on opposite sides of NC-98, a primary highway from Durham

2:27:04to Wake Forest, with over 14,000 vehicles daily in 2025, and four lanes of undivided

2:27:11traffic and very short shoulders.

2:27:16Walking is dangerous, bicycles would be deadly, children would cross NC-98 at the busy congested

2:27:23intersection with Mental Springs Road, carrying over 8,800 vehicles daily in 2025.

2:27:29Mental Springs Road is an artery from RTP and Highway 70.

2:27:33This dangerous intersection is an unavoidable path to the school for the children to walk.

2:27:39Will the pending Mental Springs and NC-98 intersection upgrade also include pedestrian

2:27:45safety access, which I noticed on the report that there is one coming in 2025.

2:27:52Not only lack of safe access to school, the Library, Ravenstone Shopping Center, and

2:27:58pharmacies are dangerous to navigate with major gaps in the sidewalk along NC-98, even

2:28:04the shopping center that is adjacent to it, there's a problem there with the accessibility.

2:28:09And the bus stop, which is on the east side of Mental Springs Road, away from this development,

2:28:16is not accessible by sidewalk.

2:28:19And the 10-foot shared path built by the developer will not remedy that at all.

2:28:29The bicycle and pedestrian advisory commission made four improvement suggestions, but the

2:28:34developer has not committed to any of them.

2:28:36The proposed road improvement to add a concrete driveway on Monolithic Island on page 6 of

2:28:41the zoning report would be absolutely dangerous to residents, pedestrians, and also traffic

2:28:46on NC-98.

2:28:48A direct access to NC-98 from this development will be hazardous to the four lanes of traffic

2:28:53so close to the busy Mental Springs intersection as well as a shopping center access point.

2:28:59This type of development on NC-98, further east at Triple Crown Development, has been

2:29:05the site of numerous accidents and vehicles making illegal u-turns into the incoming

2:29:11traffic.

2:29:12So this monolithic traffic island has been tried before and is not working.

2:29:17And finally, this development does not conform to the place type map designation of suburban

2:29:23commercial and will require changing the place type map.

2:29:27Why not build commercial for the many new developments approved?

2:29:31Commercial development seems to be missing from southeast Durham only housing buildouts.

2:29:36Thank you.

2:29:50Hi, my name is Tina Motley Pearson, and my address is on file.

2:29:56We have a first responder shortage, and that's not just me saying it or PRD saying it.

2:30:04That's actually in the headlines.

2:30:07You can see on your screen the headlines read, "Durham Police Department Hopes to

2:30:11Fill 134 Vacancies with Paid Training Before Academy."

2:30:16The Durham Police Department hopes to quell a critical staffing shortage by paying recruits

2:30:21before they start the job.

2:30:23Durham Police has 397 sworn positions filled, including more than 60 recruits in training,

2:30:28but there are still 134 vacancies.

2:30:33There are many delays and resource issues with 911 calls.

2:30:38And Durham made headlines again for the longest ER wait times in the state.

2:30:44CP policy 119 is clearly not being met.

2:30:49This policy is to ensure new developments within the urban growth boundary are within

2:30:54the established level of service.

2:30:56For emergency services such as fire, emergency medical services, police, and community safety,

2:31:03Durham wants to be a big city out here, but it has little city infrastructure.

2:31:09We are not set up to safely deal with all the growth.

2:31:14In regards to lack of infrastructure, I'd like to make one more comment regarding schools.

2:31:19The developers are only proffering $15,000 toward school for 43 new students.

2:31:26The average estimated annual cost for a new student is $5,374, which would be $231,082,

2:31:38and $15,000 is only 6.49%.

2:31:43We really need to pause all this development and fix the lack of services and infrastructure

2:31:50first.

2:31:51Please vote no on this.

2:31:52Thank you.

2:32:04Good evening.

2:32:05My name is Ava Pearson, and my address is on file.

2:32:08Some of you may know local Durham resident Jerry Ray.

2:32:11He has thousands of followers and posts regularly about the lack of EMS services in Durham.

2:32:17One post says Durham has no EMS units to 911 call.

2:32:22Durham had to ask Orange County EMS to respond.

2:32:25Another post says adults arrive to school to take students to the hospital themselves

2:32:29since no EMS arrives 21 minutes after the 911 call.

2:32:34No EMS available.

2:32:36Another one, a teen severely injured on a bicycle.

2:32:39An adult having to take their children to the ER because there are not enough EMS units

2:32:42for the area.

2:32:44This should not be happening.

2:32:45We're playing Russian roulette with the EMS services because there are so many developments

2:32:49in an area that is unable to keep up with the critical services.

2:32:52If we keep going like this, it's only a matter of time before we lose someone.

2:32:56Time matters in situations like these, and that is becoming more and more apparent.

2:32:59What does it take before we start making changes?

2:33:01Thank you.

2:33:07Good afternoon.

2:33:08I'm Donna Steenback, address is on file.

2:33:143815 Wake Forest Highway is one of the three top nearing capacity basins in Durham County.

2:33:30We participated in the sewer issues back earlier this year and there was slides presented that

2:33:39showed that it needed, Lick Creek needed $25 million of improvement to be completed

2:33:45in five years.

2:33:49It was stated that only it had a capacity for additional 2375 three bedroom units.

2:33:59This did not include the 3524 approved dwelling units in which it's increased and are not

2:34:09included in this count.

2:34:12This means that we are over by 1149 units with these 200 apartments and townhouses.

2:34:26As we discussed, this site has varying slopes, it starts off at a good level and then drops

2:34:34off to the floodplain and the creek there.

2:34:38The topology shows that there are going to be drainage issues to the floodplain and

2:34:46that this is going to be, because of the difference in slope, more grading, more runoff

2:34:51and faster runoff because of the grade, and hard to keep any existing mature trees.

2:34:59Those are at a minimum proper and then it's going to take more funding to keep the flooding

2:35:11from going into the Lick Creek pump station at Stylons Road.

2:35:16One of the pictures that you saw earlier was showing where it was flooding there at Stylons

2:35:22Road downstream and that particular one of the properties is my sister's and she says

2:35:29that they're routinely having flooding down there and that is not good to be having flooding

2:35:38around your pump station.

2:35:46One of the things we were looking at were the environmental impacts and if you look

2:35:52at the regulated floodplain and the stream buffer it talks about exceeding UDO but actually

2:35:59you're talking about additional intrusions could impact the floodplain at the site plan.

2:36:06That's not an exceeding of the UDO and we keep having more problems with the streams.

2:36:15Thank you.

2:36:16Thank you.

2:36:19My address is on file so I was actually here probably 20 years ago very angry with a set

2:36:29of different faces and nothing really got accomplished.

2:36:32So I'm in the Grove Park community, really, really want to thank you all for what you've

2:36:37been able to do.

2:36:39This has been night and day from what I experienced 20 years ago to what we're experiencing now.

2:36:45We've got new speed bumps, we've got a lot of things that have been allocated to our

2:36:49community especially as a satellite community.

2:36:51One of our biggest complaints as a satellite community is the taxation with that representation.

2:36:56So I think and I think it's kind of ironic that it's the 250 year anniversary that we

2:37:01just talked about earlier in the evening that we can actually just kind of leverage

2:37:05into this discussion as well.

2:37:06I can appreciate the argument presented by the developers council and I also can appreciate

2:37:12the hard work and the governance that you all had to do but to me I don't have anything

2:37:17new to offer to all of the litany of aggravating circumstances that go along with this challenge.

2:37:22I think objectively you can look at this and vote the way it should be voted which

2:37:27is hopefully the way that we're presenting it.

2:37:30So I'm not going to take my entire two minutes but I want to thank you all for the work

2:37:34that you do.

2:37:35I think you guys, you all are smart individuals and are elected by your constituency and

2:37:42I think that you will make the right decision tonight and oppose this item.

2:37:45Thank you.

2:37:46Thank you.

2:37:48And following Pablo Friedman I have Andy Lowe and Chris Burrissey.

2:37:52All right.

2:38:03Good evening Mayor Williams, Mayor Pro Tem Caballero, members of council, city manager

2:38:08city staff, the hundreds of folks in the islands, the millions of people online who

2:38:12care about democracy.

2:38:14So I want to go back to something that Katie Ross said, one of the first speakers.

2:38:19So I think in a prior meeting councilmember Rist you were talking around the number of

2:38:24units that Durham will need, right?

2:38:26And I really encourage everyone on the dais, particularly those of you who are free market

2:38:30conservatives to read Katie Ross's blog because it talks about how we have already met the

2:38:35projected number of housing units we need by perhaps the most deferential study to those

2:38:41of you on the council who believe in approving these rezoning requests and we are way ahead

2:38:46of schedule.

2:38:47And so the reason why I say that is because now that we have these requests we can be

2:38:51a little bit more selective and choose to lead into those progressive values that some

2:38:55of you on the dais really struggle to legislate on.

2:38:59So let's talk a little bit more about what I mean with those progressive values.

2:39:03So one of the things in these reports are the numbers.

2:39:07So let's talk about the numbers.

2:39:09So in this proposed rezoning request $379,000 of revenue will be generated and $127,000

2:39:18of expenditures will be associated, leaving the taxpayer to win about $250,000, which

2:39:23is great.

2:39:24We want to increase revenue, but here's where the delta comes in.

2:39:28The projected cost TMS is almost $350,000, and so the taxpayer, that is those of us

2:39:34who live in the city and the county, will have to subsidize this developer to the tune

2:39:39of $100,000.

2:39:41Now I don't believe in corporate welfare, and I would like to hope those of you on

2:39:44the dais don't either, and I think at a minimum, at a minimum, this developer should hold

2:39:50the taxpayer harmless, meaning they should be proffering at least $100,000 for EMS services.

2:39:57That is progressive values.

2:39:59Free market conservatism and Milton Friedman style economics and Reagan trickle down is

2:40:03not progressive values, but let's lean a little bit more and talk about the proffer

2:40:09for schools, right?

2:40:11It's not sufficient tasks go down to Raleigh when some of you on the dais refuse to hold

2:40:16the line for public schools, okay?

2:40:19They are shorting the public school system to the tune of approximately almost $30,000.

2:40:25You can look at data and reporting by Bull City Political Nerd, which talks about the

2:40:29average proffer per pupil is $1,000.

2:40:32That proffer should be $43,000.

2:40:36If you believe in progressive values, this developer needs to pony up an additional

2:40:40$150,000 to make the taxpayer solvent.

2:40:44Additionally, if you're leading into voting yes, please add them a sidewalk.

2:40:49If you walk next to the developer, the proposed applicants project, there are no sidewalks.

2:40:54There's a lot of traffic.

2:40:55Somebody's going to get really hurt there.

2:40:57Thank you.

2:41:04Good evening.

2:41:05Mayor Williams, Mayor Pro Tem Caballero and the rest of City Council, my name is Andy

2:41:09Love.

2:41:10I'm here tonight to actually speak in favor of this project.

2:41:11First off, I do want to acknowledge the attempt to make the meeting shorter.

2:41:16I've been here very late with you all a couple of times, so kudos for that.

2:41:20I always like to start these off with acknowledging the place site map, the comprehensive plan

2:41:23and actually the upcoming LDC.

2:41:25I know it's on pause, but it's a good way.

2:41:28I find it a useful way to see how staff applies the comprehensive plan, as is the spirit

2:41:33of the new LDC or the new upcoming zoning.

2:41:36The place site map, most of the property is in apartment townhomes.

2:41:39It's next to existing schools and amenities, so it makes sense.

2:41:43The most of the plot has RX5 in the new LDC, which is mixed-use residential.

2:41:50The definition of it actually calls out mid-rise apartment buildings as an example of that.

2:41:54That is in progress within the LDC right now.

2:41:59To me, makes a lot of sense.

2:42:00It's next to a bus stop, next to, again, existing amenities.

2:42:02I know Highway 98 is not in a great spot, can I take what you can get?

2:42:07I mean this, and I've come up here before and I've acknowledged before there are costs

2:42:11associated with growth and things like this.

2:42:13You're up here taking a preponderance of the evidence, I think, is the legal term that

2:42:16they use.

2:42:17This is not all as good or all as bad, and so I wanted to highlight that.

2:42:21I also want to bring tonight, there's been a lot of conversation, we had a tough budget

2:42:24season on money, how does numbers work out?

2:42:27I also went and took a look, there's been a few folks that have talked about the cost

2:42:30benefit analysis, revenue generation, et cetera, using the city's cost benefit analysis

2:42:35at full build out, which I think is in year three or four, correct me if I'm wrong, staff,

2:42:38feel free to, the city is netting about $191,000 of additional revenue.

2:42:44If you convert that to the county using the property tax rates, that's $252,000 to the

2:42:50county per year at current tax rates, starting in three to four years at full build out.

2:42:55So that's a good amount of money, that's about $440,000 per year, and that increases

2:42:59with inflation as property tax changes, et cetera, and when we come out of tough budget

2:43:04conditions, we need to make revenue positive decisions to get out of that.

2:43:08All these things cost money, all the infrastructure everybody's talking about costs money.

2:43:11This is a way, in infill like this, in density like this, is a way to drive that revenue

2:43:16without having to raise the property tax rate, which is the only other way to do this,

2:43:20which we all will have to pay.

2:43:22So wanted to shut that out, I think the project overall is good, it's housing, and I recently

2:43:27actually read a headline of Portland, I mean, and people talk about studies and like what,

2:43:32how to measure it, it's a hard thing to measure, but you can follow the money, in Portland,

2:43:36right now market rate apartments are starting to decrease in price faster than 80% AMI

2:43:41subsidized units.

2:43:42So this does, it does happen, they had a new supply come online because of COVID era building

2:43:48and low interest rates, and so, I thought that was interesting, and so, love to see

2:43:54vacancy rates stay, you know, not too high, not too low, and, you know, the consumer

2:43:58went out.

2:43:59So thank you all, hope you vote yes.

2:44:07So, good afternoon, good evening, City Council members.

2:44:10Notice I have my phone out, but I also have papers, so I want to start this off with

2:44:14a really strange request of you, which is to follow the rules.

2:44:17So the rules for these public hearings state that it's supposed to be 15 minutes for the

2:44:23proponents and 15 minutes for the opposition.

2:44:26I've been keeping track of the time, the proponents should have seven minutes left

2:44:31to get to 15 minutes, and I'm rounding down, by the way.

2:44:35The opposition has gone 26 minutes over time, which City Council is well within their power

2:44:42to grant.

2:44:43I didn't hear a vote on that, but that's okay.

2:44:45So what I'd like to do is start off by asking you to follow the rules and give the folks

2:44:49who are proponents additional time.

2:44:51I have a lot to talk about here, I think this is a really positive project, and I've got

2:44:54a lot of information to share, and I'm not going to be able to do it in three minutes,

2:44:57but if I had equal time, I would absolutely be able to do it.

2:45:00So I'm going to get right into it and let you all discuss and think about that.

2:45:03So this area is going to be a very dense project.

2:45:07It is going to be 200 homes on 10.9 acres, if I did my math right, I'm not sure if I

2:45:12have that.

2:45:13It's 18 units an acre, a little bit more, fun comparison, assuming an almost ridiculously

2:45:18conservative number of one resident per unit.

2:45:21That is still about 11,000 residents per square mile.

2:45:25For reference, Durham currently is at 2,500 residents per square mile.

2:45:32Cary, suburban Cary, is at 3,000 residents per square mile.

2:45:37Raleigh, nicknamed Sprawly oftentimes, is at 3,100 residents per square mile.

2:45:43So we're well below that.

2:45:45Do you think of Cary as more of a city than us?

2:45:47I don't.

2:45:48So what we are getting here is a little bit of a catch-up in that density.

2:45:52We're sprawling a little bit less by putting in higher density within our urban growth

2:45:56boundary.

2:45:57I think the next question for you then is, does this density make sense in this place?

2:46:01And so I think a lot of folks have talked about how they don't want this here, totally

2:46:05understand that.

2:46:06This is an area that has historically been a little bit lower density, actually quite

2:46:10a bit rural, and the thing that I'd like to point out is there is a fare-free go Durham

2:46:17bus stop 0.2 miles away.

2:46:20And guess what?

2:46:21Get next to it.

2:46:22The applicant sidewalk combined with an NCDOT project that is coming up, HS, I think 2005s,

2:46:28is going to also complete a total route where folks from this complex will be able to get

2:46:34straight to the bus stop without crossing a road continuously on sidewalks, right?

2:46:39So why are we running a bus out here if we're not going to put housing?

2:46:42These folks will also have a grocery store less than a third of a mile away.

2:46:46Literally, they just got to cross mineral springs.

2:46:49It's dangerous.

2:46:50I totally believe all the folks that live out there, that's something that we got to

2:46:53solve.

2:46:54But that's much closer than what I have right here on the periphery of downtown, right?

2:46:58Oak Grove, 0.1 miles away.

2:47:01So we need a safe crossing if we're ever going to make that useful.

2:47:04But that's very close, much closer than what I have.

2:47:07Neil Middle is only 2.4 miles away, that's all I got.

2:47:10Thank you, folks.

2:47:11We'll let that propose one more time.

2:47:14Thank you.

2:47:15And I will say, for the record, Mr. Pearson, you are actually correct.

2:47:20Our rules do say 15 minutes per side.

2:47:22I've never followed it.

2:47:24I try to give everyone, if you show up, I try to give everyone voice.

2:47:30But for the record, each side has 15 minutes or equal time.

2:47:35If there are 100 people that speak in opposition, then it's two people to speak in support,

2:47:44and 100 people spoke, and two people have that equal amount of time.

2:47:48So I try to be fair and let folks come out and voice their concerns to it.

2:47:59But I am stating for the record, you are correct, sir.

2:48:03And it is my prerogative to whether I'm going to follow those rules or am I going to adjust

2:48:08the rules.

2:48:09And I can come in tomorrow night and say, you know what, 15 minutes this side, 15 minutes

2:48:13that side.

2:48:15I can say, you know what, tonight, I mean, whenever you have just this whatever, you

2:48:20know, if there are 20 people to speak in support and two people speak in opposition,

2:48:24they have the same amount of time.

2:48:27Just it's how I facilitate the meeting.

2:48:31But I did want to say that you're correct based on our rules and wanted to put that

2:48:37on the record because we get people coming here and define things for us a lot.

2:48:43All right.

2:48:44But those are all of our speakers.

2:48:47And I don't have any other speakers for this item or I don't see it.

2:49:05Okay.

2:49:06Mr. Gose.

2:49:07Would you like to respond?

2:49:08Thanks.

2:49:19So I just want to address a couple things that were said.

2:49:21We heard a lot of comments.

2:49:24One was about the schools being overcrowded.

2:49:26The data in your staff report shows very specifically that schools in this area are

2:49:31nowhere near overcrowded.

2:49:32The elementary school is almost here 50 percent capacity.

2:49:36So schools in this area are not overcrowded.

2:49:38That having been said, I mean, I do think they're, you know, our commitment to the

2:49:44monetary contribution to DPS is a little light.

2:49:50We would like to raise that commitment to $21,500 based off of, well, like I said,

2:49:57it's light.

2:49:58It's about $500 per student at 21.5.

2:50:00We do want to make that commitment.

2:50:03The Planning Commission did recommend denial, but that was a vote.

2:50:06That vote was a 5-5 vote.

2:50:08I think that's important to understand.

2:50:10We've made changes to the plan since Planning Commission.

2:50:12They are reflected in your staff report, most of them.

2:50:15Your staff report also reflects the fact that this project as analyzed by your professional

2:50:21staff is consistent with 18 out of 20 applicable comprehensive plan policies, 12 of which we

2:50:28exceed the UDO and six of which we simply meet the UDO.

2:50:34There was a lot of conversation about various pieces of infrastructure that may or may not

2:50:40be at capacity or near capacity.

2:50:44One, we're not in Goose Creek.

2:50:48We're not in that sewer basin.

2:50:49We want to make sure that's clear.

2:50:51And there are plans, as was shown on the slideshow, to improve and increase capacity

2:51:01at the Lick Creek Lift Station.

2:51:03So, I mean, the growth is, you know, I think the city is actually planning for this growth,

2:51:11which is what I think I hear a lot of people saying they wish the city would do.

2:51:15And in my opinion, the city is actually doing that in this case.

2:51:19There was a lot of talk about sidewalk, which I was a little confused about.

2:51:24We do have a commitment for, obviously, we have to put sidewalk on our frontage.

2:51:29We have a commitment for additional sidewalk offsite, which essentially would go through

2:51:33the shopping center out to the mineral springs.

2:51:36It will connect up with the NCDOT project for sidewalk along mineral springs, which

2:51:42will then give you continuous access to the existing bus stop there.

2:51:46One thing that we have struggled with here is how would -- what is a safe way to cross

2:51:54Highway 98?

2:51:55To be fair, NCDOT also had that struggle, which is why that crosswalk is not in the

2:52:02scope of their project.

2:52:04Would it be nice to be able to cross NCDOT on foot, you know, at a safe pedestrian crossing?

2:52:11Absolutely it would.

2:52:12But beyond the scope of what a project this size is able to do, it's beyond the scope

2:52:15of what NCDOT thought they could do in their project.

2:52:18And that explains why we have not made that.

2:52:21Now, there was a suggestion made at the planning commission, which we thought was a really

2:52:26good one, which is to work with NCDOT and the city at time of site plan to establish,

2:52:31you know, wayfinding signage and additional signage that would alert people to the fact

2:52:38of the school and what school hours are, that type of thing, hopefully to help people

2:52:41slow down and be more mindful of pedestrians.

2:52:45But there's no doubt about it.

2:52:47This project increases walkability.

2:52:49Does it make it totally walkable?

2:52:51It does not.

2:52:53But it makes it much better than what's there today.

2:52:56Now, there was also some talk about contamination.

2:53:01The contamination reference did not originate on this site.

2:53:07Another way of saying that is there is currently no active DEQ investigation on this property

2:53:13or any other property where that plume exists other than where that contamination originated.

2:53:19Now, there is monitoring at other sites.

2:53:24But the best way to protect yourself from the groundwater contamination from that one

2:53:30site is to not rely on groundwater.

2:53:32In other words, to annex into the city so you don't have to use a well and you can

2:53:36tap on city water and sewer.

2:53:38This project is proposing to do exactly that.

2:53:40It will also bring city utilities closer to properties that currently are on wells.

2:53:45And if those wells are not contaminated today, that's a great thing.

2:53:48And maybe they will never get contaminated.

2:53:49But if they do get contaminated, this project will actually make it easier for those properties

2:53:54to connect up to city water and sewer so that they don't have to rely on contaminated

2:53:58groundwater.

2:54:01There was also some pictures about a storm in August of '24.

2:54:06So that was Tropical Storm Debbie, which wrecked havoc on Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina.

2:54:13And so, yes, I would agree that when we have tropical storms that come to this area, there's

2:54:16some flooding that is experienced.

2:54:18Now I'm not trying to be, you know, too snarky about that.

2:54:22This area is near floodplain.

2:54:24It has flooding issues.

2:54:26But those pictures, you know, show a very specific storm and a month later, North Carolina

2:54:31was hit by Hurricane Helene.

2:54:33There was a lot of rainfall in that time frame, and that's what you're seeing in those photos.

2:54:38I'm not suggesting those photos aren't real.

2:54:40I'm just saying they're not representative of a typical rainstorm.

2:54:45They're representative of a hurricane which also spat out tornadoes, which also sat over

2:54:51Florida for a long period of time, caused lots of damage there.

2:54:54And by the time it got here was a tropical storm that continued to dump rain on South

2:54:58Carolina and North Carolina.

2:55:01And there's also a little bit of talk that this development, this project is not consistent

2:55:06with the place type map.

2:55:07And that is true for a portion of the property.

2:55:10Some of this property is designated for suburban commercial.

2:55:15And it was said, well, we need more commercial development in this area.

2:55:19At the same time, it was also said that there's too much traffic in this area.

2:55:25Commercial development is going to breed more traffic than residential development.

2:55:28And you don't have to take my word for it.

2:55:30That's actually in the staff report materials with the traffic analysis in there, specifically

2:55:36based off of a full build out of the current zoning, some of which has commercial zoning

2:55:42already.

2:55:45If you base the traffic produced off of a full build out under the current zoning versus

2:55:48the traffic that might be generated from the full build out of the proposed project.

2:55:52This project represents a decrease in nearly 6,500 vehicle trips per day.

2:55:57That includes a decrease of 323 AM peak hour trips and a decrease 277 PM peak hour trips.

2:56:06So I don't want to pretend like all of those trips that we're talking about decreasing

2:56:10are exist on the road today, they don't.

2:56:12But this is how traffic is analyzed for development purposes in the city of Durham.

2:56:19And in every municipality, frankly, this is how it is analyzed.

2:56:23The current zoning designation would allow a much more traffic intense development than

2:56:27what we're proposing here.

2:56:29At the end of the day, this is a sensible, dense residential infill development that

2:56:35will take advantage of existing infrastructure, existing development in the area.

2:56:41And it will put people closer to goods, to schools.

2:56:45And it also provides offsite sidewalk housing that will be a safe walk to transit.

2:56:53This is a good development on paper.

2:56:56And I think you've that's also reflected in the staff report.

2:57:01Thank you very much for your time and we're happy to answer your questions.

2:57:04Thank you.

2:57:08All right.

2:57:09Thank you so much.

2:57:10Colleagues, you want to go right into questioning or you want to take a quick break because

2:57:16we can get out of here.

2:57:17We just go straight through.

2:57:18It's up to you guys.

2:57:19All right.

2:57:27Those are all the speakers I have.

2:57:29Thank you for your response.

2:57:30At this time, I'm going to declare the public hearing closed and back before the Council.

2:57:33All right.

2:57:35Councilmember Rivers.

2:57:36Mr. Ghosh, can you come back to the microphone, please?

2:57:40Thank you.

2:57:43Thank you so much for your rebuttal to what's been offered by community members.

2:57:46I did want to follow up with you in regards to the groundwater contamination.

2:57:50And while you made the point that, you know, I guess a way to circumvent that would be

2:57:55for people to connect to city water and sewer, but God forbid someone wants to plant, you

2:57:59know, something in the soil actually if it's contaminated.

2:58:01So I see that there looks like on the site, I'm looking at the satellite view, like a

2:58:06lot of junk cars or just like various things there.

2:58:11That is currently occupied on this site, if you look at the corner.

2:58:15The site that we're looking to develop now?

2:58:17Yeah.

2:58:18Currently it's occupied.

2:58:19I mean, there's a house on that property on, I mean, there's nine cars.

2:58:22I see like old vehicles there.

2:58:24So I'm just thinking about like, just think about the need to do a little bit of environmental

2:58:28analysis because like you made the point that, you know, hey, you connect, you're

2:58:33not using well water.

2:58:34So we're about contamination that was brought up.

2:58:36But I'm thinking about people, if you're in a town home, you may want to plant things

2:58:39that are edible.

2:58:40Right.

2:58:41And then think about the impact of those things.

2:58:43So while you may fix and alleviate one issue you have the other end, so I just want to

2:58:46make sure like comprehensively, how can we ensure that we're not putting people at risk

2:58:51of harm by contamination?

2:58:53Well, I would agree that there are two different issues that you're talking about here.

2:58:57So generally speaking, any developer is going to do a phase one environmental analysis

2:59:01before they do development.

2:59:02That has nothing to do with the groundwater contamination that's been reported or documented

2:59:06by NCDQ.

2:59:07Sure, phase one might identify those things, but that, but it is separate.

2:59:13So I mean, I don't, I can't speak to whether there's junk cars or something like that

2:59:17on this site.

2:59:18To my knowledge, this is not a salvage yard, you know, like a commercial salvage yard

2:59:24or something like that.

2:59:25So I don't, if there are a bunch of old cars there or something, I would imagine, you

2:59:29know, that it's a private collection or something.

2:59:32Yeah, I'm just looking at Google, which is accessible for all of us.

2:59:35The satellite view on Google right now is that's what I'm seeing when I zoom in at

2:59:38this site.

2:59:39I'm not serious about just thinking about those and we just as a normal line question.

2:59:43So I move on my next question, but just wanted to uplift that.

2:59:47Looking at it.

2:59:48So the affordable house, the affordable units that you believe eight percent proffer for

2:59:52with those solely because townhomes will be a mix of townhomes and apartments.

2:59:56Well, it'd be eight percent of the overall build out and we're

3:00:00We're just using the definition of affordable housing as it is in the UDO.

3:00:04So it could be townhomes.

3:00:05It could be all townhomes.

3:00:06It could be all apartments or it could be a mix-in.

3:00:07So your answer is either/or?

3:00:08Yes.

3:00:09Okay.

3:00:10And so when you – I see that you had this for 30 years.

3:00:12Have you all or the applicant be interested in – I'm thinking about, like, just working

3:00:16with Durham Housing Authority.

3:00:18Has it ever crossed you all to ensure that we're making sure people actually who need

3:00:21these housing units to affordable housing are through the voucher program?

3:00:24Have you all considered ever working with DHA on that?

3:00:26I mean, sure. I've worked on plenty of projects that we've partnered with DHA on.

3:00:32This project hasn't actually, you know, got to a point where we've had those conversations

3:00:38with DHA.

3:00:39I mean, DHA's got a voucher program – well, I'm sorry.

3:00:42DHA's got – one thing DHA's trying to do right now is to move residents out of

3:00:49some of their existing properties so that they can redevelop those properties.

3:00:53The voucher program, there are limitations on what that can be.

3:00:57So generally speaking, voucher programs cap out at the 50 percent AMI, and so that can

3:01:04be difficult to achieve on a project like this, which is not a LIHTC project.

3:01:09So generally when we've partnered with DHA in the past on affordable housing projects

3:01:12through a voucher program, it's going to be a LIHTC project where you can hit – I

3:01:17mean, again, they usually cap out about 50 percent AMI, but actually typically what you're

3:01:21doing is partnering with DHA to get the 30 percent AMI.

3:01:24So no for this project.

3:01:25Okay.

3:01:26Correct.

3:01:27Thank you for that.

3:01:28The ValiDale exit.

3:01:29So I do see that concern about – just in there, can you just give me a little bit more

3:01:32context on if you aren't able to put that exit on ValiDale, what would that look like

3:01:37for folks?

3:01:38I believe it's in the comprehensive package about the ValiDale exits, more so.

3:01:42Like, it may possibly be two, but there are some limitations that if you discover it may

3:01:46not be two.

3:01:47How do you plan to mitigate that?

3:01:48Well, I mean, the access point on ValiDale is an optional access point.

3:01:54There are going to be two access points on the 98.

3:01:56That's what's required by Fire Code or the UDO.

3:01:59The ValiDale one is completely optional, so they could do it or they don't have to.

3:02:03Really what I think from a developer's standpoint, what they're looking at is the access points

3:02:09on 98 are going to be right in, right out only, which means that the whole development

3:02:12would not have a full access location anywhere.

3:02:16So to preserve the ability to have a full access location, that's what that option

3:02:19is on ValiDale.

3:02:20But if they do that, it also requires additional turn lane to be added on Highway 98.

3:02:26But it's also not necessary from a circulation standpoint.

3:02:30So that's why it's optional.

3:02:31But the two that are on 98, those will be built, regardless of whether the one on ValiDale

3:02:35gets built.

3:02:36Okay.

3:02:37Thank you so much for your time.

3:02:38I don't have any more questions for you.

3:02:39I'll just say in general that I am deeply concerned.

3:02:42I've said this a million times, and I get that we all have different philosophies around

3:02:46housing and that we're all different, different ideologies and approaches more so.

3:02:49But some things are just very obvious, and this area is highly congested.

3:02:54And it just, we're running into an issue where I think we're not, we're trying to

3:02:58justify things and paint these like visuals where if you're not the one living in that

3:03:02area and community, well, I respect everyone's voices, but if you're not dealing this on

3:03:05a daily basis and you are living in an area that's walkable and have access to bike trails

3:03:10and such, I love that for you.

3:03:13But not everyone has that.

3:03:14And so we must be considerate.

3:03:15And as one of your developer colleagues from, not you, but he basically said to us, you

3:03:19know, that's not, infrastructure is not a developer's job, it's a city's job.

3:03:23And so as a city councilor, I must acknowledge that we are putting burdens on people and

3:03:28their quality of life.

3:03:29And I don't want to have a situation where, I've said this a million times before, people

3:03:34are going to have problems getting a home rent as insurance because we're building things

3:03:38in questionable areas that are already flooding.

3:03:40Trees have purposes, their roots actually have a job, they do.

3:03:44And when you go out and clear-cut and masquerade, we are taking away some of those natural protections

3:03:48for people in the community.

3:03:49So we are seeing right now through the El Nio, what's happening in California, like

3:03:53we're having weather phenomenons, we are to the point where we cannot reverse damage

3:03:57we've already done.

3:03:58And so it's important that as we continue to grow and build out, that we're taking

3:04:02consideration what damage we've done to earth already and what it's going to look like

3:04:06moving forward.

3:04:07So thank you all for your time.

3:04:08But I wanted to just take about the environmental, like we want to have earth for a very long

3:04:12time.

3:04:13And I'll say this, like, even though some people promote growth, I came back from China,

3:04:16which is a highly dense city in Kunshan.

3:04:18I didn't see the sun shine for six days, well, five days, because of smog.

3:04:24That's the reality.

3:04:25And now they're trying to reverse and do zero carbon emissions.

3:04:28So what would be the harm being proactive in planning how our city grows and making

3:04:31sure that we give everyone a voice to express those thoughts?

3:04:35So thank you.

3:04:36Thank you, Council Member Cook.

3:04:39Thank you.

3:04:44She's out so good.

3:04:45She just speaks so quickly and I use up all my time talking too slow.

3:04:50Okay.

3:04:51You have a 12, I think a 12% minimum on townhouses.

3:04:55Is there any minimum on apartments?

3:04:57Are you requiring any apartment build at all?

3:05:01There was no minimum on there for apartments, although I think in order to reach the density

3:05:09that we're required to meet under PDR zoning, I mean, you're going to have to do apartments,

3:05:15because if it's 200 units maximum, the PDR zoning requires the site plan to at least

3:05:24achieve 80% of whatever the maximum is, we wouldn't be able to get that many townhomes.

3:05:29It can't be 100% townhomes and still meet that density.

3:05:34Are they going to be, do we anticipate them being for sale or for rent, and will it depend

3:05:41between apartments and townhouses?

3:05:43Well, I can say that the intent, I mean, this isn't obviously ownership status isn't regulated

3:05:49through zoning, but the intent is for the apartments to definitely be for rent.

3:05:54The townhomes might also be for rent, but that would be the option for the for sale

3:06:00component.

3:06:01So, because of the way our affordable housing definition or amendment is proffered, it contemplates

3:06:08that it could be either, the affordable units could be for sale or rental, because it's

3:06:13just using the definition.

3:06:14Yeah, but there's a different standard if they're for sale or for rental.

3:06:16I'm sorry?

3:06:17There's a different standard for affordability if they're for sale or for rental.

3:06:20Right, I'm acknowledging that, yeah.

3:06:21That's what I'm saying.

3:06:22So, it's going to, we're using the UDO definition of affordable housing in our zoning amendment.

3:06:26So if it's for rent, it will meet that standard, if it's for sale, it will meet that standard,

3:06:31if that's what we're relying on.

3:06:32Yeah, I mean, I'm just curious about if it's rental or for sale, so, but y'all don't have

3:06:36an answer to that necessarily.

3:06:37We think apartments will be for rent, townhouses will be more for sale, but that's, you're

3:06:42just assuming.

3:06:43No, the apartments will be for rent, that's the intent, and it's possible that the townhomes

3:06:48would be for sale or for rent.

3:06:51Okay.

3:06:53Is there any more consideration on a step down buffer for the higher potential apartment

3:06:58buildings?

3:07:00A step down buffer?

3:07:01Yeah, you talked about it.

3:07:02What does that mean?

3:07:03You said at the planning commission that someone had suggested that to buffer the height of

3:07:08the buildings.

3:07:10Oh, no, that's not something that we would be prepared to commit to.

3:07:22You also said at the planning commission, which was back in June, that you would look

3:07:26into further reducing impervious surface at 65% at the time was the best you could

3:07:30do, but you were hoping that you could do more, did y'all, were y'all able to do more

3:07:34than that 65%?

3:07:35We looked into that, we're not comfortable reducing past 65%, although, I mean, we tend

3:07:45to think that's probably going to be less than 65%.

3:07:48It's just that as a tight zoning restriction, we can get comfortable enough that we'd be

3:07:55able to hit that.

3:07:58Okay.

3:07:59So no further commitment there, and I do appreciate the additional affordability commitment.

3:08:05This is, I think, as y'all are sort of proposing at a high transit area, that we're looking

3:08:11more at 10 to 15% affordability, is there any way that we could increase from that

3:08:178%?

3:08:19No.

3:08:20I mean, as I mentioned, we were looking at multifaceted concerns that people have mentioned.

3:08:30What we tried to focus on here is increasing the affordable housing commitment as much

3:08:35as we could, and that's where we ended up at 8% on that.

3:08:39But I think that it would be very difficult for us to get above that.

3:08:46So that you were interested in going higher than 75% native on the planting of trees?

3:08:50Why are we not just doing 100%?

3:08:51Oh, no, I'm glad you brought that up.

3:08:53We would change that to 100%, yeah.

3:09:02I heard you reference this, and it was in my notes to ask you about, that there were

3:09:06potentials for additional safety measures like signage and extra signaling.

3:09:11I heard you say that y'all thought it was a good idea.

3:09:14Did you do any work since June to see if any of that is an option?

3:09:19So that level, we would come at site plan stage, but I mean, we've looked into whether

3:09:28such signage exists, and of course it does, but I mean, I wouldn't know how to style

3:09:33a zoning commitment based off that, because a signage isn't -- I mean, it's not exactly

3:09:41code requirements.

3:09:42It would have to be something that would be looked at at site plan to see where those

3:09:45signs can go.

3:09:47Okay, I'm going to ask staff that question in one second, but I want to ask the one

3:09:51remaining question that I have on my list, which is that I heard you raise the DPS amount.

3:09:5921.5.

3:10:0021.5.

3:10:01Okay.

3:10:02I calculated it for $2,500 a student, which would be at $107,500.

3:10:12Any interest in making it part of the way there significantly more than what y'all

3:10:19have proffered here?

3:10:21I mean, I guess I don't -- why would you calculate it at that number is my question.

3:10:26I mean, the outstanding amount that's shown or the amount of per student cost that's

3:10:33shown in there is a per student cost that doesn't necessarily suggest that it's a hole

3:10:38in the school budget in any way.

3:10:42I mean, there are taxes that go from this development to the school system, so these

3:10:46are additional on top of that.

3:10:48The fiscal impact analysis, or as I recall, suggests that this was all revenue positive.

3:10:54So I mean, I appreciate that you calculated a higher number.

3:10:58I don't know that we're going to be able to meet you at that number, though.

3:11:02Okay.

3:11:03So no interest in going higher on that?

3:11:05Not that high.

3:11:06I mean, I can look at potentially a higher number, but not that high.

3:11:09What would a potentially higher number be?

3:11:11I'd have to -- we'd have to -- we'd have to consult with our client.

3:11:15Okay.

3:11:16Thank you.

3:11:17And can I have staff for one quick question on -- I am interested in this idea of potentially

3:11:24having proffers around infrastructure support -- safety support, so the conversation was

3:11:31around more like signage and signaling.

3:11:35If that was found to be an option, I think that there's a lot of conversation around

3:11:39the fact that there's no crosswalk there, and then also that it's a school zone, and

3:11:44so there could potentially be more lighting, more signage, et cetera.

3:11:49Is there a way that they could proffer to fund that if it was found to be an option

3:11:55to add those signage or signals?

3:11:58That's an early in question.

3:12:02Sure.

3:12:03So with the promise, planning, and development, I think it would really depend on how that

3:12:07proffer were crafted.

3:12:10This is an NCDOT right-of-way, and we certainly need to coordinate that with them to make

3:12:15sure it's something that they would even consider allowing.

3:12:21Can we get language for how one might do something like that?

3:12:24I feel like we've done somewhat comparable proffers previously.

3:12:28Is there a language that -- I don't know that we've ever done one for

3:12:32any type of signage.

3:12:34We haven't done it for signage, but we've done it for other things that required permissive

3:12:38usage, like bus stops, if a bus is going to be routed there, shelter, if there is going

3:12:45to be lots of potentials.

3:12:49And those are things that we know are permitted within the right-of-way, if there is a need,

3:12:56but typically it would be MUTCD signage that's allowed within the right-of-way.

3:13:02Double-zone signage, which is also permissible, it really will depend on what is envisioned.

3:13:13So I'd be happy to review some language for that, if you have something in mind.

3:13:20I don't.

3:13:21Okay.

3:13:22Thank you.

3:13:26Those are my questions.

3:13:27Thanks, Ms. Mayer.

3:13:28I have a couple more questions for staff.

3:13:30Staff?

3:13:32A couple more questions.

3:13:33So just on that, I want to go back to -- I think Mr. Ghosh referenced the traffic counts.

3:13:38I want to just make sure I understand, in the zoning map change report, I'm going to

3:13:44pull that one up.

3:13:45So what that shows is -- make sure I'm reading it properly.

3:13:49So in the traffic counts, what it shows is that the daily traffic generated by present

3:13:54designation is about somewhere almost like 8,000 vehicles per day, right?

3:14:00But that is -- that's assuming that under the current zoning designation, you would

3:14:04have like potentially a restaurant there with like a drive-through or sort of a convenience

3:14:08store with a bunch of pumps.

3:14:09Is that correct?

3:14:10Yes, that is correct.

3:14:11Okay.

3:14:12And we typically try to generate traffic based on the most intensive use.

3:14:17So that's a use that could be -- so that could be -- if this were not approved, that

3:14:21could be use of the property.

3:14:22Yes, by right.

3:14:23And so -- right.

3:14:24And so what I see on the -- again, on the zoning map change report is that the potential

3:14:30impact of the proposed designation is less than that because of it being residential

3:14:33not commercial.

3:14:34So that's how you get the lower traffic counts.

3:14:36Yes, that's correct.

3:14:37Okay, I just want to make sure I understood that.

3:14:38Okay.

3:14:39So what I just want to ask about is on the sidewalk things.

3:14:42I think there's really some -- and I think Mr. Goshe referenced this in the beginning,

3:14:46you don't want to oversell the connectivity right there, right?

3:14:49But I do want to understand there is a DOT project, right, that's on the Division 5

3:14:54list.

3:14:55I was trying to get more detail on that today.

3:14:56So that's a project that's going to create right turn lanes at the Middle Springs 98

3:15:02intersection.

3:15:03And so -- and that includes also sidewalks.

3:15:06And if so, how far do the sidewalks extend beyond the intersection?

3:15:10So the sidewalk, it will be on the east side of Mineral Springs.

3:15:14So from NC98 north to the bus stop.

3:15:17And that's the extent of what they're building in sidewalk infrastructure.

3:15:22So then, Mr. Goshe, you referenced a five-foot sidewalk that you would seek to build from

3:15:26your parcel to -- would that be to the intersection with Mineral Springs?

3:15:29Right.

3:15:31So on our frontage, it would be a 10-foot wide, but as it leaves our property, we went

3:15:35to a five-foot.

3:15:36And that's by the shopping center?

3:15:38Yeah.

3:15:39Right.

3:15:40And then to the Mineral Springs intersection.

3:15:42Okay.

3:15:43Yeah.

3:15:44So that would -- so that would complete -- so then from your -- from your parcel, you could

3:15:47walk continuously, if you can make that gap with the five-foot sidewalk, you could walk

3:15:52to the intersection there.

3:15:53You could walk the north to the bus stop.

3:15:56With the EOT improvement, you can walk north to the bus stop on sidewalk.

3:15:59And I also understand -- I want to give a shout-out to the manager here.

3:16:02So I understand that we did sign an interlocal agreement with the county, I think, back

3:16:05in August or something that would allow us to -- if DOT does build that sidewalk, that

3:16:10we would then maintain it.

3:16:11Because that is on county land, right?

3:16:12That's not currently city land, correct?

3:16:15Yes, that is correct.

3:16:18There was an agreement executed that would allow the city to maintain that sidewalk.

3:16:21Okay.

3:16:23I appreciate that.

3:16:24So, you know, we -- we're obviously -- I think there's a -- since there's a debate

3:16:30on the council about this project, we've debated a lot of projects on this council

3:16:34the last couple years.

3:16:35And we've debated many that had much less connectivity than this right here.

3:16:40So yeah, I did drive the site today.

3:16:43And I recognize, as you said, you don't want to oversell the sidewalk there.

3:16:47But I think what we have here, and I appreciate one of the speakers, Mr. Perilstein, this

3:16:51is actually -- we're -- in our conference plan, we've said we want to get more dense

3:16:56and more affordable -- more dense all around the city, not just downtown, right, all -- in

3:16:59all parts of the city.

3:17:01The place to have map calls for apartments and townhomes right on this parcel.

3:17:05That parcel, as Mr. Perilstein said, and as we talked about with the sidewalk, you

3:17:09could walk from your parcel, an apartment or townhome, to the corner there and get

3:17:13on a fare-free bus and come downtown easily, right?

3:17:15So a young family could buy a townhouse, rent an apartment there.

3:17:21With zero or one car, you could get downtown on the bus, you've got a school right across

3:17:25the street.

3:17:26Admittedly, DOT is even having trouble getting any kind of crosswalk there.

3:17:30That's unfortunate.

3:17:31But it's right across the street to the school.

3:17:33There's also -- we talk about 15-minute cities.

3:17:36You could walk in five minutes to the grocery store, right?

3:17:40There's an independent grocery right there on the other side of Middle Springs.

3:17:43So to me, there's all kinds of options here.

3:17:45There's also a library that's about, what, two-tenths of a mile away.

3:17:50It's a hard -- that first going east from your parcel, that first block, it's not super

3:17:55pedestrian-friendly.

3:17:56But beyond that, there's sidewalks that go all the way to the sidewalk, and even to

3:17:59the golf course, if you're crying out loud, right?

3:18:01So there's like -- there's a whole lot of pedestrian access here.

3:18:03I understand the concerns about traffic, but we're doing -- what you're doing here

3:18:07is actually building a community where you don't have to have a car.

3:18:10You could walk to the bus stop and get on a fare-free bus.

3:18:13So I appreciate this offer here.

3:18:15I appreciate the additional profit of affordable units as well as the profit for schools.

3:18:20I think, as one of my colleagues referenced earlier, we're -- part of what we're doing

3:18:24here is we're sort of operating -- we're making hard choices in an imperfect world,

3:18:29right?

3:18:30This is giving us more housing, which we need.

3:18:32I know I must be the Milton Friedman conservative.

3:18:34I think that's the feedback I'm getting for residents here.

3:18:36I think supply matters in housing markets.

3:18:39I think most folks agree to that.

3:18:41Supply does matter.

3:18:42We have -- we've seen the data from our metropolitan transit plan that we're going to grow by

3:18:4990% jobs, 50% of residents by 2055.

3:18:53We're growing.

3:18:54And to suggest somehow that we have a fixed number of houses that we've got to build,

3:18:57and we're done with that, is simply not correct in a dynamic market.

3:19:00So we need more housing.

3:19:01We have 300 or 400 people moving here every month.

3:19:04This is going to give us more housing, affordable housing.

3:19:07It's going to give connectivity, access to transit.

3:19:10I think this is a good project.

3:19:11It's not perfect, but I will be supporting it.

3:19:13Thank you.

3:19:15>> I'll turn the call back.

3:19:17>> Yeah.

3:19:18Thank you, Mr. Mayor.

3:19:19First, a couple questions for Mr. Gausch.

3:19:22So under the green building commitment, there's references to an array of standards that

3:19:27would qualify.

3:19:29And there are two green guard and Duke Energy Hero that are not actually certifications.

3:19:34And so I'd like to know if you would strike those as options for what would qualify in

3:19:39meeting the policy under the comprehensive plan.

3:19:43>> So thanks for bringing that to our attention.

3:19:48So my answer to the question is yes.

3:19:50I'm looking a little confused because I thought the recent guidance that has not yet maybe

3:19:59been presented, JCCPC from staff suggested that the Duke one actually is a certification.

3:20:09But I'm just basically questioning are those the right programs to strike from this condition

3:20:13or not?

3:20:17>> Thank you.

3:20:18What Neil is referring to is the presentation on Wednesday which will recommend the removal

3:20:24of the green guard, green globes, and the Energy Star programs from the text commitment

3:20:32as these are not really certifications.

3:20:34So those are the three that will be recommended by Peyton and Bree.

3:20:39And I think that's what you're suggesting is to bring the language of this condition

3:20:44into conformance with that kind of -- >> Yes, the Duke Energy Hero is also not a certification

3:20:48as far as I understand.

3:20:49So I may need clarification on that but I think for the purposes of this evening I

3:20:52just would want to strike that one as well unless we can confirm for sure it's a building

3:20:58certification.

3:20:59>> And the report is listed as a certification.

3:21:03>> In which report?

3:21:04>> The JCCPC report that you'll be hearing on Wednesday.

3:21:11I will do some research on that from the dais.

3:21:14So next we've talked about the DPS contribution.

3:21:17There are a large number of students that would be added which is a good thing when

3:21:22it's close to a school but we have been seeing a standard of about $1,500 per pupil.

3:21:28I understand this is a larger development and I'm curious if you would consider $1,000

3:21:33per student in contribution.

3:21:35>> Well, maybe, I will say we chatted with our client over the phone here and we were

3:21:45at 21.5, I believe they said they were comfortable going up to 32.5 on that and I think you're

3:21:50asking if they'd be comfortable going up to 43.

3:21:53So I'll just say I don't know the answer to that question right now but 32.5 is they've

3:21:59already told us that they felt they could do that.

3:22:04>> All right.

3:22:06And then can you just talk a little bit more about the work that would be ahead to try

3:22:10and address the crosswalk issue?

3:22:12>> Oh, well, I'll just be honest with you.

3:22:16I don't know that the crosswalk is going to go there.

3:22:19My understanding is that NCDOT and the scope of their project and maybe someone is better

3:22:26to speak on this, determine either that it wasn't a good idea to have a crosswalk there

3:22:30or that it's too difficult to actually establish one there.

3:22:34Why?

3:22:35I don't know.

3:22:36>> I know some of the documentation is there's concern that there's a tradeoff between greater

3:22:41safety and potentially slowing traffic down more and it can be hard to do both of those

3:22:46but I'm just curious what's possible from a safety standpoint.

3:22:53>> I guess let me ask you this.

3:22:55What do you think an appropriate commitment will be here?

3:22:57Because I can tell you that we cannot commit to putting a crosswalk there because I don't

3:23:01know if that's actually going to be achievable.

3:23:04So what would be, you know, like, I'm not -- I think we all agree it would be really

3:23:10great if someone potentially could safely cross 98.

3:23:13>> Yeah, and in this particular question, you know, I'm not trying to solicit a proffer.

3:23:16I'm trying to understand what the steps would be towards having greater safety there and

3:23:20what we've seen from BPAC recommendations, which I know you can't commit to and deliver

3:23:25alone, but, you know, in partnership with DOT, like, what would the work be to try

3:23:29and make that a safer crossing?

3:23:32>> Well, so one thing I will say, BPAC had a couple of recommendations.

3:23:36One of them was about a mid-block crossing and I can tell you that will not be approved.

3:23:41There's already an intersection there.

3:23:43There's no greenway there.

3:23:44I mean, you can get mid-block intersections at greenways or places where there is high

3:23:48pedestrian activity.

3:23:49I think we've heard from everyone in the room that there is not high pedestrian activity

3:23:53in this area because there's no pedestrian, you know, infrastructure.

3:23:56So a mid-block crossing wouldn't -- is definitely not going to happen.

3:24:00Whether a crosswalk could be implemented at the intersection, I mean, to my eye, I don't

3:24:10really see why not.

3:24:11There was a traffic signal there, but DOT has already determined in the scope of their

3:24:18project that it, again, either was unsafe or not desirable or not achievable for some

3:24:27reason.

3:24:28I don't really know.

3:24:30Other than a crosswalk there, I don't really -- I'm all out of ideas on how to safely get

3:24:34pedestrians across Highway 98 to the school.

3:24:38I did look into the -- whether the school had any walk numbers.

3:24:45Basically what I read was that they do not -- there's like a national walk to school

3:24:54day, which is essentially the only day they get walkers at the school.

3:24:58And they -- presumably because it's not very safe to walk to that school.

3:25:02So --

3:25:06Okay.

3:25:07Thank you.

3:25:08I have a couple questions for staff.

3:25:11And is this my clock or Mr. Ghosh's clock?

3:25:12Because I know it's about a minute and 40 ran off when he was speaking.

3:25:15Apologies.

3:25:20I've been pausing it when Mr. Ghosh has been speaking.

3:25:24Okay.

3:25:25It was going for about a minute and 40 seconds when Mr. Ghosh was speaking.

3:25:27Thank you.

3:25:29Question for staff about the sewer capacity.

3:25:32You know, is 67% concerning?

3:25:34Like how do we think about that as a number of sort of capacity for sewer infrastructure

3:25:41in relation to what we've seen at Goose Creek?

3:25:50So if you'll recall when a presentation was brought to City Council, I don't remember

3:25:56how many months ago now, by Water Management, they did talk about that this basin was kind

3:26:04of next on their watch list.

3:26:06They did indicate the amount of capacity that was still available and I do believe that

3:26:10the information shared in the presentation earlier by residents was accurate.

3:26:15At this point, Water Management has not indicated that it is at the same kind of dire level

3:26:24that the Goose Creek is in right now.

3:26:28So they're still proceeding with permitting development.

3:26:33They do anticipate that the improvements will be made in a timely fashion and should not

3:26:39be impactful to development.

3:26:44Thank you.

3:26:45We've heard a couple different comments around the financial impact of the project.

3:26:48I know we have the cost benefit analysis.

3:26:50There's also the EMS projections.

3:26:52This one you can speak to on the record what the 10-year projection is from a financial

3:26:57standpoint to the City for this project.

3:27:02Give us a second to pull up that table.

3:27:07Give us a few additional seconds while the Internet decides whether it's going to work

3:27:28or not.

3:27:39So looking out, this is attachment I in the packet and it does chronicle out by years.

3:27:48So if you go the last year in the table, it is a 10-year.

3:27:53The cumulative gain at the grand total like the very last box looks like if my eyes are,

3:28:03you know, I have the technology I could just zoom in, Sarah.

3:28:07Basically 2.4 million total cumulative gain over that 10-year period essentially in terms

3:28:15of the -- sorry, I'm looking at -- and our ongoing expenses, that same period looks

3:28:32like $322,985.

3:28:33All right.

3:28:34Thank you.

3:28:35Pause for now.

3:28:39Thank you.

3:28:41Member Baker.

3:28:44How did you know I had questions and comments?

3:28:54I actually had a long list of questions and thanks to my colleagues many of them have

3:29:00been either answered or addressed.

3:29:03I also had the similar questions around the green building.

3:29:09One question left to staff is will this be able to meet the block length and connectivity

3:29:14requirements in the UDL?

3:29:19It's required to.

3:29:20Yes.

3:29:23It's required to meet that.

3:29:24Okay.

3:29:26Even with the graphic development plan, we think you can meet --

3:29:30Correct.

3:29:31Because of the additional standards they would have to meet at the time of site plan.

3:29:35Okay.

3:29:36Awesome.

3:29:37I recently saw an analysis that showed that I was the most no-voting Councilmember on

3:29:43zoning cases, and ironically, I'm a land-use planner.

3:29:50I do that as my day job, and I love urban development, and I've lived internationally

3:29:56in cities where if you could get up high, as far as you could see, you would see tall

3:30:02buildings.

3:30:03And I loved living in those cities because there was activity and there were small connected

3:30:10blocks and great spaces, and when you walk down the street, you were really just inspired

3:30:16by what you were passing by and the frequency of transit and the great parks and squares

3:30:23and public spaces and the trees that were underneath all those tall buildings.

3:30:29And so there was this beauty in all of these tall buildings and this density because we

3:30:36weren't just talking about density.

3:30:37We were talking about the three D's of walkability, density, diversity, and design, and I think

3:30:45I don't want to get into this debate about housing, more housing, less housing.

3:30:51I think it's a distraction from important conversations regarding how to build a city

3:31:01that is complete and comprehensive and serves the people who live in it and how do we get

3:31:07there, and also how do we do that in a city that has built out in ways where streets are

3:31:14not connected, and we have a lot of terrain issues.

3:31:20We have clay and all these challenges.

3:31:24So some of these cases that I look at and many of the ones that I vote no on, I show

3:31:31up to the meeting ready to beg my colleagues, please vote no on these cases.

3:31:37These will have long-term negative impacts vehemently against them.

3:31:44This one falls into a category where I'm going to vote no, but I actually think that

3:31:49there are quite a few things about this case that make it better than that other category

3:31:57that I'm referring to where I think we're just sprawling out and destroying forest

3:32:03and farmland.

3:32:05This one is nestled into an area that is built out in a lot of ways.

3:32:12There are neighbors here who would experience an impact and I think a negative one in addition

3:32:20to potentially some positive ones, including off-site construction of sidewalk, which

3:32:24I think is beneficial, and I want to state one of my frustrations of being in the voting

3:32:36minority on these kinds of cases, and let's just be honest.

3:32:39There's like a four-three breakdown of voting on these kinds of cases on the council.

3:32:44We don't have to pretend there's not.

3:32:46There is.

3:32:47And it's frustrating being in the three because let me just ask you, Mr. Ghosh, how long from

3:32:55the application until now, how long has it been since you all applied until this moment?

3:33:03Oh, actually we were just talking about two years.

3:33:06Two years.

3:33:07It's been two years and you've gone through this process and you've gone to planning commission

3:33:11and you've spoken with staff and you've looked at the regulation.

3:33:13And on your side, you're also doing things, right?

3:33:16It's not just city government getting in the way.

3:33:19You're also doing things on your side and going back and forth.

3:33:22Your case is getting better.

3:33:24And then you come here and as you work your way through that process, you're doing the

3:33:28financials, you're doing the pro formas, all of that, the Overton window is getting

3:33:33smaller and smaller and smaller.

3:33:34The things that we can actually talk about here when we're talking about making commitments,

3:33:39financial commitments to schools or changes, proffers, it gets smaller.

3:33:46Realistically for you all as the applicants, it gets smaller.

3:33:48There's less that you can do.

3:33:51If we had a different consistency up here and we were willing to vote no on some cases,

3:33:55I think that we would get to a point where we could vote yes on more cases because there

3:33:59would be a new standard that was set because when applicants came and applied to the city,

3:34:05they would already know what the council was already expecting, what the expectations would

3:34:10be.

3:34:12And that's where I find frustration.

3:34:14I vote no.

3:34:15I love density.

3:34:16I love densities.

3:34:17I love walkability.

3:34:18I love when a city is growing and we can do all these great things with the built environment.

3:34:24And I find myself in a place where I'm deeply frustrated because we're just not quite getting

3:34:29there on a lot of cases, and I think they could be better.

3:34:32This is going to pass tonight.

3:34:33I'm going to vote no, but I do want to acknowledge quite a few things that you all have done

3:34:39to make this case, I think, better and try and nestle it in.

3:34:42And I want to thank the residents who come out because you're expressing things that

3:34:46are true.

3:34:47Thank you, Mr. Baker.

3:34:48Can I say one final thing?

3:34:50I think that we find ourselves in a place where we are verticalizing and densifying

3:34:56car centricity, which just means that we're adding more cars to the road in a way that's

3:35:01not necessarily benefiting our residents.

3:35:03I think that we can do better.

3:35:04Thank you.

3:35:05Thank you.

3:35:07All right.

3:35:09All right.

3:35:10I want to give some remarks and then I'll come back around.

3:35:12I want to thank Mr. Baker actually for articulating that so eloquently, and that is the result

3:35:18of voting.

3:35:19That is the result.

3:35:21The folks in the city voted, and it's not a 4-3 split.

3:35:25It's a representative of the city, and that's what we have.

3:35:30My questions go back to the basics of just the logic of it.

3:35:36One, right on that corner is a used car lot.

3:35:39It's been there for years, and it's junky, but it's a used car lot there.

3:35:49The school across from it has a garden out there, and I was like Councilmember Burris

3:35:54was really concerned about the environmental points.

3:35:59Thank you for addressing that.

3:36:02I do and I agree with the residents on this.

3:36:04I think that NCDOT is considering this road as a main vessel.

3:36:10It's not the main vessel since they built 540, and 40 is there, but it's still a very,

3:36:17very significant vessel between Durham and Wake Forest, and I think that in many cases,

3:36:26in my personal opinion, I think there's a lot of room for DOT to really show some love

3:36:31to this road, and we're not getting that yet.

3:36:35The least we can do is enhance the infrastructure and resources around it, so I appreciate

3:36:39the profits there.

3:36:41I hear a lot of talk about what we should be, and then I'm thinking like this is not

3:36:45a Sims game.

3:36:46It's not going to become that overnight.

3:36:49In order to have the density we want, this is the process to get to it.

3:36:55In order to get the infrastructure or resources we need, we have to have the tax base to

3:37:02pay for it.

3:37:03It's almost saying I want to breathe, but you're cutting off the oxygen.

3:37:08The global government to me, and my understanding is a jigsaw puzzle.

3:37:13We're not printing money, and in order to get more of something, people are going to

3:37:18pay more or the tax base is going to expand, and we share that burden.

3:37:23My question to you is, and I would ask that we keep it down in the audience, when we're

3:37:34adding all of these things onto it, I'm trying to figure out the balancing of the financing

3:37:41here.

3:37:42We're committed to 8% affordable housing, affordable units.

3:37:48All the other things, we're pressing you to do more to the schools.

3:37:52We're pressing you to do more to the resources, the infrastructure around the property, even

3:37:58off-site.

3:38:03I don't think we can dictate, which I don't know if you're going to say truthfully on

3:38:06the record or not, but the more we press out of you, who's going to end up paying

3:38:10for that?

3:38:12Is it going to the end-user, or is it coming out of the profit line, or I'm not trying

3:38:18to give you a profit business, but this is the point where we would need to understand

3:38:22how all these things work.

3:38:23It's a multifaceted question.

3:38:24The rental rates aren't ... You don't just get to pick like, "Oh, I want to rent this

3:38:28apartment for $3,000 a month," instead of having someone who's going to pay that, right?

3:38:32There's market dynamics there, so you're trying to budget for a project that is going

3:38:39to achieve realistic rents in the area, right?

3:38:43Just because you build or want to build a luxury apartment or something like that, that

3:38:48doesn't mean the market is going to command $8,000 in rent or something like that for

3:38:53an apartment unit.

3:38:56On a multifamily project, I would say it's a little bit more ... On a for-sale project,

3:39:01I think it's probably more accurate to say that the end-user ends up paying for that,

3:39:07right?

3:39:08On a rental project, you can only be with so much higher than whatever the next apartment

3:39:15complex is, right?

3:39:16It's coming out of somewhere that obviously isn't going to help keep rents low, but that

3:39:22doesn't mean that the rents are just going to be automatically subsidizing all of these

3:39:26other different ...

3:39:27That's my point.

3:39:28That's ... Sometimes this feels really performative.

3:39:32We can win tonight.

3:39:33What is this?

3:39:35October 5th.

3:39:38We can win tonight, and we get all of these things, and then I think about the neighbor

3:39:41who's going to move in there, and when they get hit upside the head, it's like, "What

3:39:45the heck just happened?

3:39:46Why is it so expensive here?"

3:39:48I am trying to get what we can out of you guys, because this is ... I mean, the way

3:39:53we're set up, that's where it is.

3:39:54We're going to squeeze as much as we can, while also not overburdening the person or

3:40:01people or the families that are going to move there, because that's going to affect

3:40:05the residents that are around it as well.

3:40:07The higher it goes, the more they're going to have to pay in taxes, because the value

3:40:10is going to go up, and it's a little give and take.

3:40:13At least my understanding, and anybody can correct me if I'm wrong on this, is a little

3:40:17give and take.

3:40:20It's a balancing act.

3:40:25We can win October 5th, but in about two years when it's up, when we're nowhere to

3:40:30be found, and people move in, their neighbors are like, "Wait a minute, the taxes went

3:40:37up again.

3:40:38We're paying more.

3:40:39Why?"

3:40:40We say we want affordable housing while doing everything to make it unaffordable, but also

3:40:43at the same time, this is the only time we can get things out of it.

3:40:46We say we need more infrastructure, so don't build it anymore until we get more infrastructure,

3:40:50but the only way we get more infrastructure is if we actually expand the tax base.

3:40:54It's just a one plus one equals two to me.

3:40:59I, again, respect what I heard earlier, we all have our own philosophy, and we all have

3:41:05our own sound effects.

3:41:06We all do what we want to do.

3:41:07That's fine.

3:41:08That's why the public elected us to be seven individually minded people, and that's what

3:41:14you're getting.

3:41:15There's not a 4-3, there's not a split, there's people duly elected to do the job, and everybody

3:41:22has a right to voice their philosophy or voice their opinion on it.

3:41:28I'll go to the second round.

3:41:29Each council member who wishes to speak will get three minutes.

3:41:34Thank you so much.

3:41:35I don't need to hold three minutes.

3:41:36I just had a question for my council colleagues.

3:41:38For those of you who are on the TPO, is there ever a moment to advocate for changes and

3:41:43improvements in this corridor?

3:41:44I know that we have BRT coming to Wellness Village, but the numbers are the numbers,

3:41:48and I'm not going to go into all that, and everyone has their right to ... The libraries

3:41:52are open, so we can all read books to this point, but it just seems that if we're going

3:41:55to continue to approve this development here, it needs to be more advocacy to DLT and whomever

3:42:00to make these plans to where we're getting the biggest bang for our buck, and that's

3:42:04just what I want to know more about.

3:42:06It's like, how do we have those conversations?

3:42:08More than happy to discuss that, but I want to note, how are you guys advocating to improve

3:42:12some of these corridors in our communities?

3:42:15Thank you.

3:42:16That's a great question.

3:42:17So part of the issue, so there are identified corridors and projects.

3:42:21Unfortunately, this is not one that is prioritized very high.

3:42:25I will say that NCDOT is in a very, very financially constrained position.

3:42:30We are not doing the next STIP.

3:42:31Is that correct?

3:42:32Right.

3:42:33So STIP is the kind of next call for statewide projects.

3:42:38That a few years ago that got suspended, it is going to get suspended again.

3:42:42Why?

3:42:43Because there is not enough resources because of Hurricane Helene.

3:42:45They have to rebuild all of that.

3:42:48They do not have the money, and the federal government has not given North Carolina its

3:42:53share.

3:42:54That is the bottom line.

3:42:55So as long as that is our reality in the state, transportation projects of all kinds

3:43:04are going to be very, very financially constrained.

3:43:08That is the simplest answer I can give you.

3:43:10Yes, we are doing advocacy with NCDOT.

3:43:12I will say that our relationship with NCDOT is much improved to where it was even just

3:43:17a few years ago.

3:43:18They are much more open to coming to the table and having conversations around.

3:43:24Can we actually put a crosswalk here?

3:43:26A few years ago that would have just been a no.

3:43:28It would not even have been, well, maybe let's think about it, their approach to their

3:43:34complete streets policies and vision zeros is coming along.

3:43:38Is it where the city of Durham is?

3:43:39No.

3:43:40But has it improved?

3:43:41Yes.

3:43:42So that is -- and happy to keep talking about that.

3:43:45And happy to have Doug Puchinski come and speak to us more if that would be helpful.

3:43:51I made that comment because I think that, as you alluded to, the damage done to West

3:43:56North Carolina hurricane handling, if we have this notion that DOT cannot -- if we have

3:44:01a massive natural disaster, they can't repair the roads, that is probably going to happen

3:44:05here someday.

3:44:06So I just want us to think about what we are setting people up for in these communities.

3:44:09Are we doing it for success?

3:44:11Because we can -- I am not going to go into all the points of abundance and all those

3:44:14things like that, but -- well, I am.

3:44:16One of the major arguments of that is that we are using this argument of we have to spend

3:44:21our tax base to take care of infrastructure, but we are just -- it's not simply working

3:44:26out in that way.

3:44:27And we see that as why we are not keeping up the pace people are moving here.

3:44:30So I just want to highlight that again in -- we already know where I stand on this.

3:44:33My vote would, of course, be a no due to environmental concerns, and I'm not trying

3:44:37to complicate anyone else to change their vote.

3:44:39I just -- yes, some things are very interesting to me how demeanor changes when certain folks

3:44:43are asking questions.

3:44:44But that's noted.

3:44:45>> Mr. Mayor, if I could understand.

3:44:46>> Okay.

3:44:47>> I think it's a really good question.

3:44:48>> Yeah.

3:44:49Go ahead.

3:44:50>> I think -- and Councilmember Kavir addressed the MPO side of it.

3:44:52The other side is that we are also working on these things within the City of Durham,

3:44:55right?

3:44:56So we have got a bike and walk plan with the county.

3:44:57This is not one of the priority corridors right now in the bike and walk plan, just

3:45:01because there's other priority corridors where there's more people, right?

3:45:03It's part of the challenge is getting more density, and that brings more of the sort

3:45:08of sidewalks and transit.

3:45:10So this is not a priority for the bus and bike and walk plan.

3:45:14It's also -- I think many of you have been part of the focus groups on the BRT-like

3:45:17routes, right?

3:45:18And we asked hard questions of county staff in the last session there.

3:45:22It's -- you know, the higher priority routes for BRT are the downtown BRT line right now

3:45:28that goes from Durham to Welland's Village.

3:45:31It's also down 5501, right?

3:45:32It's also down the freeway out to the airport.

3:45:35So it's a really good question, but it's in terms of like community priorities.

3:45:39It's not rising up to the level of some of the other higher ones, yeah.

3:45:43And again, I want to add, I think that's a great question, and I wish we would spend

3:45:46more of our time talk about these types of policies, because this is what folks are really

3:45:51asking for.

3:45:52I think GoTriangle could be a really good venue for this conversation as well as we

3:45:57are trying to have some of those fixed routes, the RDX that goes from downtown Raleigh -- downtown

3:46:02Durham to downtown Raleigh back and forth throughout the day.

3:46:06At one point, it didn't exist, but now it does, and it is a really good resource.

3:46:12And we don't have to exhaust our resources here with our bus system, our transit system.

3:46:18Consider it GoTriangle is connecting to Triangle.

3:46:22Durham's Wake Forest is a main vessel, and as we're expanding services, that will be

3:46:26a really good option to explore.

3:46:29I appreciate that policy question.

3:46:31Yes.

3:46:43>> Mr. Ghosh, did you have a conversation about the 43,000 number for DPS?

3:46:48>> Yes.

3:46:51I think you said we can go up to the 43?

3:46:54>> Yeah.

3:46:57>> 43, yeah.

3:46:59>> Yes, we can go up to 43,000 for DPS.

3:47:02>> Okay.

3:47:03Thank you.

3:47:05Those are all my questions.

3:47:06Thanks so much.

3:47:07Yes.

3:47:08I'm going to echo a lot of what my colleagues have said.

3:47:14I talk a lot about affordability up here.

3:47:16I feel like we've all sort of got our things that we talk about.

3:47:19And my piece is affordability.

3:47:21And I'm watching people, right?

3:47:22Because I'm in eviction court every day.

3:47:25And so I'm watching what is impacting people and what it means to actually be able to

3:47:29afford your rent or your mortgage, because we see people losing their mortgages a lot,

3:47:34too.

3:47:35We have a huge number of folks in the city that are cost-burdened for their homes.

3:47:42And is it enough if you have a somewhat less expensive unit?

3:47:47And I talked a lot about transit, and so I want to appreciate this project because one

3:47:52of the things that I do talk about is, like, is it actually affordable if you have to

3:47:56own two cars?

3:47:58And this actually removes that burden.

3:48:01And so I appreciate that.

3:48:04There are still some other pieces of affordability, which I don't feel are met with this.

3:48:08And a big one, as my colleague has said, is the environmental impact.

3:48:14I heard not a typical storm, but we're hearing that every other year about the storms that

3:48:20are starting to hit.

3:48:21And we know that they will continue, because all of us are, I think, buy into science

3:48:26up here and know about global warming and understand the impacts of climate change

3:48:31and the increase in these massive storms.

3:48:36What does it mean to be building in a floodplain?

3:48:39What does it mean for folks who aren't going to be able to ensure their property, also

3:48:42who are going to have to make massive repairs, and also be subject to, like, health implications

3:48:50of those things, right?

3:48:51Because having heat islands and these other things, like, these are major impactors of

3:48:56well-being and health.

3:48:59And yeah, I want to appreciate, too, this conversation about, like, what costs get

3:49:04passed down and who's sort of responsible for those costs getting passed down.

3:49:08And I want to be really clear that asking private development to foot the bill on things

3:49:15is not the reason that we're allowing costs to get passed down to taxpayers.

3:49:20We know for a fact that almost all of that tax shortfall was corporate landlords.

3:49:28We know where the shortfalls are coming from.

3:49:30We know that folks are able to gain the system.

3:49:33And we also know that they're price-fixing, because we're in a literal lawsuit about it.

3:49:38And so we know where these, like, massive profit maximization and inflations are happening,

3:49:45and it's not because of anything decision that we're making up here.

3:49:49This is a corporate profit maximization problem that we're not dealing with very well in

3:49:54this country, like, just all things aside.

3:49:57And not everyone is responsible for the burden that that has put on them.

3:50:00But I want to be really clear that us asking for additional things is not the reason that

3:50:05we're getting burdens passed down to residents, corporate profit maximization is the reason

3:50:10that those burdens are getting passed down.

3:50:13Thank you.

3:50:14I have a question for Director Young, and I'm going to put you on the spot, and I apologize.

3:50:23So this is a case from several years ago, South Durham, next to the Aldi, it was one

3:50:29of the first people who kind of did an off-site sidewalk gap fill.

3:50:35And I just want to know if that project was an annexation or not.

3:50:43Do you overestimate the capabilities of my memory?

3:50:45I believe in you, Director Young, I do.

3:50:48I don't know off the top of my head.

3:50:50Okay.

3:50:51So I think it was, I'm just going to go with it.

3:50:52Yeah, it was down 751.

3:50:54There was two that night.

3:50:55There was one that the Planning Commission recommended and there was one that didn't.

3:50:58And the one that the Planning Commission recommended didn't make any sense to me because

3:51:02it was further out, and the one that they didn't recommend was way closer.

3:51:08And that case passed unanimously.

3:51:15And I remember Councilmember Baker, who often says no, voted for that case, and I think

3:51:24that was a unanimous vote.

3:51:25And I think it was partly because it was around the sidewalk.

3:51:27It was like, I don't love it.

3:51:28I think most of us can own up to the fact that a lot of things that come before us,

3:51:33we don't necessarily love.

3:51:34I don't love most of the development in this country.

3:51:36I think we've destroyed most of our cities.

3:51:38You have to go back to the, we were in Grand Rapids last week, you could see incredible

3:51:41architecture.

3:51:42Why?

3:51:43Because it was built at the end of the 1800s into the 1920s before there were cars, and

3:51:47they were able to keep a good city center, and it industrialized at a point very different

3:51:50than the south, et cetera, et cetera.

3:51:53But that one, they'd come in, the developers had come in, and they'd done the best that

3:51:58they could with our rules, and they did that connectivity.

3:52:02And all of a sudden, you had, I think, a mix of townhomes and whatnot.

3:52:06People were talking about traffic.

3:52:07Their townhouse was too dense.

3:52:08But it allowed a connectivity to South Point, to the Aldi, to all these things in a way

3:52:13that if you were lucky enough to live there, it really did open up those possibilities.

3:52:16And that's the same as the site.

3:52:17It's the exact same.

3:52:20And folks can talk about this being rural.

3:52:22There's an IGA, and a used car, whatever, and a school.

3:52:26That's not rural, people.

3:52:27I'm sorry.

3:52:28You're right there.

3:52:29It's an 11-minute drive from City Hall to that.

3:52:32In traffic, it's a 20-minute drive.

3:52:34For me to get to that Aldi or South Point, that's the hinterlands for me.

3:52:39It's a lot harder for me to get to that part of the city than it is to Easter them.

3:52:45So again, do I love everything that comes before us?

3:52:49Absolutely not.

3:52:50One of the reasons that other countries are able to develop that they're able to develop

3:52:53is because they have way stronger imminent domain rules.

3:52:56If the government wants your land, they just come get it, and they build the damn road,

3:53:00and they build the thing that they want, and that's that.

3:53:02And it is what it is.

3:53:05I would say that in this country, including the people in this room, would lose their

3:53:09bloody minds over that.

3:53:11So that's part of the issues here, is that we have really strong individual property

3:53:16rights, and so it is going to be infinitely harder to undo our car-centric development.

3:53:25And that's just something that we have to reckon with.

3:53:28So I am a yes.

3:53:30I will say the piece around -- and I'm going to -- I let a lot of people talk tonight,

3:53:36so I'm going to ask for more time, Mr. Mayor.

3:53:41You can take your second round.

3:53:42Thank you.

3:53:45I will say the piece around asking for more, that whole conversation.

3:53:52If we could only ask for more, if we were unified in asking for more.

3:53:56Our comprehensive plan is our document.

3:53:58It is our guiding star.

3:53:59We passed it.

3:54:00We did a robust engagement around it.

3:54:02We spent a lot of money to make sure that we got resident voice in there.

3:54:06It was not an easy process, and this applicant met 18 out of 20 of the relevant policies.

3:54:14So if we don't like the rules that we set up, then let's have that conversation.

3:54:18But let's not put it on every single applicant because we're responding to the people in

3:54:22the room.

3:54:26So this project meets those policies and exceeds many of them.

3:54:32And so that is what we need to be using, that is the document we need to be using to make

3:54:36our decisions.

3:54:37Thank you.

3:54:39That's all.

3:54:40All right.

3:54:42Anyone else?

3:54:43Mr. Mayor, you suggested someone was being performative?

3:54:44No.

3:54:47I said that some of this feels performative on council, meaning we are -- we're asking

3:54:53for this, and at the end of the day, it's going to shift over to someone else.

3:54:58I'm not addressing anyone's personality or anyone's behavior.

3:55:13So I've heard some great cases tonight for the LEC, which calls for dense infill development

3:55:18across the city where we have existing infrastructure.

3:55:20So let's keep that in mind when that comes back around.

3:55:23I would also point out that we have a Bull City political nerd which was referenced tonight

3:55:26that said this council has gotten more from developers than ever before, and I think we

3:55:31should keep pushing.

3:55:32You know, I'm willing to vote no, I voted no, and, you know, I always keep that in

3:55:36mind as I evaluate each case, you know, this was voted down 5-5 by planning commission,

3:55:41but it's also a very different case as I see it from planning commission with a lot

3:55:46of the comments that I saw from commissioners addressed by what's been brought forward

3:55:50tonight in part directly, in part thanks to the questions and the push from my colleagues.

3:55:57I understand the concerns that people have about more housing and about more people,

3:56:03but I also think for me personally it's really important to keep in mind and center the

3:56:06priority of fighting displacement and the greatest positive benefit of having more missing

3:56:11middle housing in infill areas is on low-income folks who live in gentrifying neighborhoods.

3:56:18You know, they are the ones that see the best, the greatest economic benefit from

3:56:21having more missing middle housing generally in a city.

3:56:25I respect every colleagues for their points of view, and I think people come at it from

3:56:28good faith.

3:56:29This is where I'm coming at it for this case.

3:56:32But I know we have colleagues who vehemently disagree with single family infill housing

3:56:37who don't want to see denser apartments in town home infill housing, and we also heard

3:56:43a lot tonight folks who were not wanting traffic, and if we did the small-scale commercial

3:56:50option that would lead to the greatest amount of traffic of all the options.

3:56:55So then it's what are we going to do?

3:56:58I lived in other cities, you know, I've studied how cities grow, and I love those places,

3:57:03but I also have to consider what is the case before me, what are the options before us,

3:57:07and how can I make the best decision possible based on the values that I bring to the table,

3:57:11and I just wonder what would we do here?

3:57:15If we don't want any of the things that would be options that would actually get billed,

3:57:22get done.

3:57:23So that's a question that I have.

3:57:24I think we need investments in big A affordable housing for sure in city land.

3:57:29Also this is an option to get more affordable housing, and so I think of trade-offs it's

3:57:32like do we want the affordable housing or we're willing to say no to the affordable

3:57:35housing?

3:57:37Do we want slightly less traffic or do we want slightly less pressure on displacement

3:57:41of folks who would get pushed out of their homes?

3:57:43And so these are the tensions we all have to face and wrestle with in these sorts of

3:57:47cases, and I think that, you know, like I understand that there's reasons to vote for

3:57:53and against these, but I think there's a lot of work that was done on this case to

3:57:59make it a good one.

3:58:00For me it seems like a good strong towns development.

3:58:02We heard tonight about people want growth that will pay for growth.

3:58:05You know this project, even if you factor in the EMS costs, brings a lot.

3:58:10Density where there's existing infrastructure, water and sewer close to schools, commercial

3:58:13sites, transit, and much better walkability than without the project.

3:58:16So I think there's a lot of benefits of like moving forward tonight.

3:58:20Thank you.

3:58:22Any other comments?

3:58:27All right.

3:58:28Thank you so much.

3:58:29I want to thank my colleagues for a rich debate and contributions to this.

3:58:35Go ahead.

3:58:38Can we just make sure that we got all the proffers from staff?

3:58:40Yeah, there were a lot.

3:58:43Thank you.

3:58:44Thanks for that.

3:58:46All right.

3:58:47We have an increase of affordable units from 5% to 8%.

3:58:51That's correct.

3:58:52We have an increase in the DPS proffer to $43,000.

3:58:56That's correct.

3:58:57We have an increase in the percentage of native trees that are required to 100%.

3:59:05That's correct.

3:59:06And then there is discussion about limiting certain certifications in the green building

3:59:11commitment.

3:59:13Yeah.

3:59:14As well.

3:59:15I did some more research.

3:59:16We can keep Duke Hero in from my second review.

3:59:19Yeah.

3:59:20It's a rebate program that requires third party verification, which is why staff classified

3:59:23it as a certification.

3:59:25So I was wrong on that one.

3:59:27Thank you.

3:59:28So maybe I would phrase it this way.

3:59:30We cross out the programs, the three, that are in the guidance in JCCPC 4.

3:59:37Does that make sense?

3:59:38I don't know.

3:59:39I'll stop my head.

3:59:40You might.

3:59:41It's a green guard, green globe, and the energy star will be stricken from that commitment.

3:59:44Yeah.

3:59:45We can cross those off.

3:59:47It was impervious.

3:59:48Still, 65% of it was impervious part of the -- 65% of it is already on the development.

3:59:53It's going to stay there.

3:59:55Okay.

3:59:56That's all that I have.

3:59:58Okay.

4:00:02- All right, thank you, colleagues.

4:00:05Thank you to the applicant.

4:00:07Thank you to all the speakers.

4:00:10As I was saying, I really appreciated the conversation,

4:00:12the contributions.

4:00:15You're gonna still get no votes,

4:00:17but those no votes got a lot out of you

4:00:20and I'm appreciative for that.

4:00:22So as it was stated earlier,

4:00:25the residents contributed to us having a policy

4:00:29for the water erosion and tree preservation.

4:00:32We have the comp plan, which was heavily community engagement.

4:00:35We have all the things that we've put in place

4:00:40and you've got much of that, so I look forward to it.

4:00:45I'll go ahead and call the question.

4:00:48I'll entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance

4:00:50annexing 3815 Wake Forest Highway into the city of Durham

4:00:55and to authorize the city manager

4:00:57to enter into a utility extension agreement

4:00:59with a court holdings LLC.

4:01:01- So moved.

4:01:03- Moved and properly seconded.

4:01:04Matter of court, please open the vote.

4:01:07Please close the vote.

4:01:09- And the motion passes four to three

4:01:11with council members Baker, Burris and Cook voting no.

4:01:14- Thank you.

4:01:16And I'll also entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance

4:01:18amending the unified development ordinance

4:01:20by taking property out of commercial neighborhood.

4:01:23Residential rule, residential suburban 20

4:01:24Falls Jordan watershed overlay district B

4:01:27county jurisdiction and establishing the same

4:01:28as planned development residential 18.410

4:01:32Falls Jordan watershed overlay district B

4:01:35city jurisdiction.

4:01:36- So moved.

4:01:37- Second.

4:01:38- Moved and probably seconded.

4:01:39Matter of court, please open the vote.

4:01:44Please close the vote.

4:01:45- And the motion passes four to three

4:01:47with council members Baker, Burris and Cook voting no.

4:01:49- Thank you.

4:01:50And lastly, I'll entertain a motion to adopt

4:01:53a consistency statement as required by

4:01:55North Carolina general statute section 160 D dash 605.

4:02:00- So moved.

4:02:01- Moved and probably seconded.

4:02:02Matter of court, please open the vote.

4:02:05Please close the vote.

4:02:06- And the motion passes unanimously.

4:02:08- Thank you all.

4:02:09That's all of tonight's business.

4:02:10We are adjourned.