2026-09-10 - Planning Commission

00:06Mr. Bateman is absent and Mr..

00:10Um, Madam Chair, just again just to announce.

00:12I know the Commission has been notified.

00:14Um, but Doctor Van has stepped down from her um her position

00:19as a planning commissioner.

00:20Um she has um relocated to another adjacent city.

00:26Um so we wish her well um but has always been very good

00:31looking out for the community's best interests.

00:33So um.

00:37Has an opportunity to, um, take a next step in her, in her

00:41retirement life.

00:42So I'm sure.

00:44We all wish her well and I will miss her.

00:47Her inquiries.

00:48They were always out of the box

00:50and much appreciated, Mr. Robert.

00:54So thank you.

00:56Um, we are, um, it looks like we're having a little struggle

00:59to pull down our presentation from our

01:02first two presentations.

01:04Um, what I would I guess I could do.

01:06I'm going to pivot.

01:07Rob, if you don't mind, can you stand up?

01:09I'm going to quickly give Rob the floor.

01:11We have two memos in front of you, commissioners.

01:13Um, just due to the sheer volume of presentations, we

01:16need to try to keep you updated on.

01:18We did two memos instead to, um, to kind of get you up to

01:22speed on the two initiations, uh, you started, uh, or that

01:26you had last month.

01:28And so Rob will just quickly go over the one for the marijuana

01:31businesses just for your knowledge.

01:35And then, uh, if Andrew doesn't get back, I'll just quickly go

01:37over the data center.

01:39Thanks, Bobby.

01:39Glad I finished my lunch.

01:41Um, so we kind of went over some of the different uses and

01:45businesses that during the August mid-month meeting, um,

01:48that are related to the marijuana, um, budget

01:51legislation that got passed in the state enactment.

01:54Um, staff does, is considering recommending.

01:58Conditional use permit for all

01:59marijuana related uses at this time.

02:02Um, there might be some more analysis and best practices and

02:04stuff that come out that makes it possible that in the future,

02:07some of the businesses might be able to be done by.

02:11Right. Um, but we're not sure exactly how these businesses

02:14are going to look yet.

02:15Um, I know we're attending, Susan and I are attending a

02:18webinar next week, and there's a couple other jurisdictions

02:21nearby that are doing more research and stuff.

02:23So we're going to, there is our discussions continually ongoing

02:26to try to figure out how the best way to regulate these

02:28businesses is.

02:29Um,

02:31but some of the definitions

02:32leave a lot open to interpretation.

02:34And for flexibility that we think a conditional use permit

02:38is required for all of the uses at this time.

02:40It's also kind of historically how Norfolk has done things

02:43start with C P for all uses.

02:44And then as time goes on, we see how these these businesses

02:48impact the community.

02:49We can scale it back from there.

02:51Um, I've already received a couple emails about people

02:53asking what the process is going to look like for Norfolk

02:56and when, how these how businesses are going to be able

02:59to start applying.

03:01Um, I think that I've been directed, those have been

03:04directed to me just because I

03:06keep doing all this research on it.

03:07Um, you'll notice the most permissive use we have in the

03:11memo is for the

03:14marijuana testing facility.

03:17Um,

03:18we believe it's going to function mostly like a lab.

03:22Um, but again, that's the district that we've allowed it

03:24in the most.

03:25But again, it's still by conditional use permit.

03:27So if it turns out that the operator wants to do something

03:29different than what we're envisioning, we can change our

03:32recommendation at that time.

03:34But if you have any questions, comments, concerns about, um,

03:37any of the uses, the performance standards or the.

03:45Uh, what am I saying?

03:47Or, or the zoning districts?

03:50Um, I'd be happy to take your comments.

03:51We'll bring you this back to

03:52you more in a presentation in October.

03:56Um, the other thing I do want to mention about that, uh,

03:59there's a, a performance standard we have in there

04:02regarding, uh, submitting a security plan to planning and,

04:08or the police department.

04:10Um, in Virginia Beach.

04:11Their recommendation was that

04:12they get approval from those departments.

04:16Um, we're not sure if we're going to be able to legally

04:18require approval from those departments.

04:19So we do at least require the plan be submitted.

04:22Um, and, and, or reviewed.

04:24Uh, and maybe the feedback could be worked between the

04:28businesses and us and the police.

04:30But, um, that is pretty standard on most of the

04:34businesses that are not strictly related to retail

04:37because the state has requirements for how you have

04:40to secure marijuana differently in those types of stores versus

04:44the retail stores.

04:46Um, we did include a map at the end.

04:49It's the same map I believe was

04:50in the presentation for the mid-month.

04:53That map is strictly for the

04:55retail or cannabis dispensing facilities.

04:58So the medical and hybrid medical retail facilities or

05:01the retail only facilities.

05:03Um we're not sure which distance requirements are in

05:06play for the other businesses.

05:08Uh, the, the state language very specifically spelled out

05:11for the retail permit that they could be denied for proximity

05:15to schools, hospitals, things like that.

05:17It wasn't quite as clearly spelled out for the other uses.

05:20So that map is just for the

05:21retail uses and potential locations.

05:24And again, some things could be subject to change based on how

05:26the state interprets certain

05:27aspects of the code as it comes forward.

05:34I apologize if this is already delineated in here, but are we

05:39anticipating that these may be not only freestanding retail

05:42but also a existing retail cannabis sales?

05:48Yeah. Either is possible.

05:50The distance requirements will go into play.

05:52There's no.

05:53There's only one location in Norfolk that's currently

05:55allowed to do the sales, which is the.

05:58It used to be cannabis.

05:59I think it's Zen leaf or leaf Zen.

06:01Now in Wards Corner.

06:03They will still need a conditional use permit because

06:05they're changing from just a medical dispensary to a hybrid

06:07use, which is part of the reason we want to make sure

06:10this gets

06:11enacted relatively soon so they can get through all the

06:14paperwork they need with us if they want to be ready to open.

06:17Um, but it is possible that an existing store could, could add

06:22this as a component.

06:24Um.

06:27I'm sorry, does that answer your question?

06:28Okay.

06:30Any other questions?

06:32Just to clarify from the map, the teal area, I wasn't going

06:36to let Rob have to try to figure out what color was what

06:38because he's colorblind.

06:40Like Lenny was, uh, is the teal area would be the areas that

06:43would be, um, eligible to apply for a conditional use permit in

06:46those areas.

06:47The red is kind of a buffer area around existing schools

06:50and other locations that have the buffer area.

06:56And again, this is just for retail based on the zoning

06:58districts we looked at for retail.

07:02Where they would be eligible for a cup.

07:04Yes.

07:06Thank you.

07:08Any other questions?

07:10Thank you.

07:13We're still having some technical difficulties.

07:15So if it's okay we will continue to rearrange the

07:18agenda slightly.

07:19If you go to the next memo that you have.

07:21Um, Andrew worked to put together a memo regarding the

07:24data centers.

07:25Um we do plan on addressing data centers by creating

07:30different data center uses one, uh, one that's large scale and

07:34one that's just a regular data center.

07:36Um, the ones that are considered large scale would be

07:39required to have a conditional use permit.

07:42Um, and then there's a number of performance standards and

07:45other things that they would have to provide in order to,

07:47um, to go through the process, regardless if it's permitted by

07:51right or permitted by conditional use permit.

07:54So again, we just request the commission to review this.

07:57We will provide a more detailed presentation and explanation.

08:00Um at the October meeting

08:03we just wanted to make sure that we had this in front of

08:05you because there's just a lot

08:06of text amendments floating around.

08:07I don't want this to sneak up

08:08on you, um, without any knowledge.

08:10So I believe this is also

08:13available in your Dropbox as well.

08:14So

08:16thank you.

08:17Questions.

08:19Any questions about the data center?

08:36Yeah. Um, it truly broke down to the fact that if they had

08:41um, the impact was based on the size of the data center, not

08:44necessarily what they were.

08:45And so, um, the state legislation that requires

08:49additional analysis by the applicant is based on how much

08:53energy they use.

08:54We also believe there's a correlation between energy and

08:56the size.

08:57So that's why we just we put those two together as part of

09:00our separating point.

09:03The goal for us is we don't want to have the small, the

09:05small ones that are just server farms, housing, you know, my

09:08cloud storage or your Dropbox storage somewhere.

09:12Um, not to get caught in this because there's just literally

09:15in a room like this size.

09:17Um, but the larger ones that actually do have the impacts to

09:21actually capture.

09:25Data center.

09:31Should we discuss something else?

09:33What we'll do is I will put.

09:35Francesca on the spot.

09:37Francesca is doing her first presentation.

09:39Um, she'll be doing the, uh,

09:41faith in housing legislation update.

09:43We wanted to get this in front of you for your consideration.

09:46In front of you, you have the actual bill that was adopted

09:51and signed by the governor, as well as a summary that that

09:54Francesca put together, um, and break me down.

09:58But she'll walk us through um, presentation explaining this

10:03and what our next steps will be.

10:07All right.

10:07Good afternoon commissioners.

10:09Um, for those of you who don't know, don't know me.

10:11My name is Francesca Genovese.

10:12I'm one of the planning associates here.

10:15Um, and I'll be providing you with an overview of the Faith

10:17and Housing Act.

10:21Um, so it allows for the by right development of mixed use

10:25and residential projects by religious and tax exempt

10:29nonprofit organizations.

10:31Um, and it becomes effective January 1st of 2027 and sunsets

10:36January 1st of 2031.

10:38Um, the photo on the right.

10:40Here is a local example of a mixed use residential project.

10:43Unity at place at kindred off of Church Street and Freemason

10:47Street was developed with non residential uses on the first

10:51floor and residential dwellings on the above three floors.

10:55This is not a faith based housing project, it's just to

10:57provide you with an example of some things we might be seeing

11:00when the law goes into effect.

11:05So for the zoning and development requirements,

11:09residential projects are to be permitted by right if they meet

11:12the following four conditions.

11:15Number one, the property has to have been owned by the tax

11:18exempt organization for five years prior to their

11:21development application.

11:23Two at least 60% are for affordable housing at 80% or

11:28less of the area median income for rental units and up to 120%

11:32for for sale units.

11:34Three the land is served or planned for a public water and

11:38sewer and meets all applicable environmental, historic,

11:42archeological, transportation and health regulations.

11:46And lastly, all housing is subject to local real property

11:49taxation upon completion, and any project approved under this

11:53bill is automatically considered to be in accordance

11:56with our Comprehensive Plan and FK 2050.

12:03So for the development standards, if a mixed use or

12:07residential project meets the conditions on the previous

12:10slide, the zoning ordinance must allow for the following.

12:13At a minimum, a building height of 45ft or the tallest existing

12:19building within 500ft, whichever is greater.

12:22This does not include buildings granted additional heights via

12:26special exceptions, a density of 20 units per acre, or the

12:30most intensive

12:32residential unit density within 500ft of the property line of

12:37the proposed project, whichever is greater and higher.

12:40Minimums may be established within revitalization areas,

12:43transit areas or areas located within small area plans or

12:47sector plans.

12:49Setbacks of ten feet or the smallest setback allowed for

12:53any existing property within 500ft, whichever is less.

12:57And then a mix of housing types are allowed.

13:00So detached, attached in multifamily

13:03and residential use of at least 70% of the gross floor area,

13:07and the remaining use is not to exceed 30% of the gross floor

13:11area, which may include public accessible ground floor

13:14nonresidential facilities such as worship spaces, health

13:18clinics, coffee shops, etc.

13:20but otherwise the maximum height shall be 45ft.

13:24And the last thing is the reduced parking requirement of

13:27a maximum of one space per unit.

13:33Um, so some things that the Bi-rite rule does not apply to

13:36is number one property zoned or adjacent to industrial zones,

13:41um, parcels located within the ACU zones, projects already in

13:45the pipeline before July 1st of this year.

13:48And for historic districts, this language is directly from

13:52the legislation.

13:53Nothing in this subsection shall be construed as limiting

13:58the authority of localities to adopt ordinances designed to

14:01protect existing or future historic areas of historic or

14:05archeological significance, historic sites, historic

14:08landmarks and historic buildings and structures, or to

14:11establish local historic districts.

14:18So for the zoning administrator, eligible

14:20projects are to be treated as bi-rite uses, so no rezoning.

14:25Special exceptions, special use permits or conditional use

14:28permits may be required.

14:31Um. The Zoning administrator must ensure that staff review

14:34proceeds through site plan and or subdivision plat review

14:38only, and no additional steps or discretionary reviews may be

14:42imposed or required for any

14:43mixed use or residential project.

14:49So more on the affordability aspect.

14:52As I said earlier, at least 60% are for affordable housing at

14:5680% or less of the area median income for rental units, and up

15:00to 120% for for sale units.

15:04Um, this affordability is to be recorded and preserved for a

15:08minimum of 30 years by deed restrictions or other legally

15:12binding requirements.

15:15And housing is open to the general public and follows

15:18nondiscrimination rules.

15:23The only mention of taxation in the bill is that all housing is

15:27subject to local real property taxation following completion.

15:35And then lastly, just some future considerations.

15:38Um, establishing current land eligibility.

15:41So determining what lands have been owned, um for at least

15:45five years by a religious or tax exempt nonprofit

15:48organization, um, initiating a zoning ordinance.

15:53Ordinance text amendment to allow faith based housing

15:56development based on this legislation.

15:59Um, the creation of a guidance document for developers

16:02utilizing this state code

16:03provision for their development.

16:05And then lastly, is coordinating with the

16:07Department of Housing and Community Development to

16:11determine the appropriate deed restrictions and income limits.

16:15And Bobby and I have a meeting with them scheduled on Monday

16:18the 14th.

16:22That's all I have for you.

16:23Any questions for.

16:30Well.

16:36I'm sorry.

16:39But I wanted to.

16:41Do you think that this would be helpful in meeting our

16:47affordable housing goals?

16:49Yeah,

16:51we work very closely.

16:53Okay. That's awesome.

16:55I'm glad to hear it.

16:57Any other questions?

16:58What do you anticipate the appropriate deed restrictions

17:02would be?

17:05That's that's what that's what

17:06the meeting is going to be about.

17:07I think we need to figure out

17:07how to capture those appropriately.

17:09Um, we don't know.

17:11And that's about the

17:13particularly the homes that are sold.

17:16Places that are sold and

17:17whether then those could be rented.

17:21Correct. Because I believe the only limitation based on, on

17:24the state law requirement.

17:26Francesca, you've read it more deeply than than probably any

17:28of us.

17:29Um, is that you just have to have the, um,

17:34meet the income requirement.

17:36But I don't think it says that you

17:39can't rent it, but still have

17:40the same income restriction requirement.

17:42So.

17:44So they would have to rent to somebody that qualified.

17:46I think that's how it reads.

17:49Before in the city, which was

17:51supposed to be workforce housing.

17:52And then they turned around and rented it.

17:55And, you know, particularly to students

17:59at least.

18:00I think we'll have to.

18:01That's part of why that's, that's not our we're not very

18:03familiar with the space.

18:04And we want to make sure we're capturing it.

18:06That's why we wanted to make sure we meet with Doctor Perry

18:09and Marsha McGill to to get us right.

18:11So we'll have to work through those details for sure.

18:14Okay.

18:16Keep us posted on how that.

18:18Yes.

18:19We'll bring that back.

18:20Um, once we do the initiation at the end of this month,

18:23afterwards, as we do the text amendment, the text amendment

18:25will probably be very simple.

18:28It'll probably just point out towards the legislation,

18:31because it essentially says it overrules all of your zoning

18:35requirements to do this, and we don't want to go through each

18:37of the zoning districts to do that.

18:39Um, but the, the devil in the details will be

18:44people asking how to do it and then creating a document that

18:47says, this is how you do this, this is how you apply.

18:50Um, we punted this around for three hours on Friday.

18:52Um, we probably honestly think a lot of people, we don't know

18:57if there's a as much movement that would be a large

19:01multifamily development.

19:03As much as someone might cleave off a couple parcels to do a

19:05single family home, because single family would be

19:08permissible by this, by this rule.

19:10So they cut off a lot here, cut off a lot there, which are

19:14probably more likely in some of the smaller, um, properties

19:18that are owned by non-profits.

19:19So it might be an unintended consequence, but I think that's

19:23what happened.

19:24I want to make sure we close.

19:27This. This is a big loophole.

19:31This kind of undoes undoes a lot of some of those things

19:34that we would have concerns with.

19:36Um, but again, I think we have to walk through the scenarios.

19:44Still.

19:46Sorry if this comes off as a dumb question, but thinking of

19:50lot sizes and, and adjacent houses, and we've been looking

19:54at smaller lot sizes and those type of things.

19:56Is there still like a, you still have to adhere to the

20:00neighborhood look and feel or what is.

20:03Um,

20:05it's not clear.

20:07It just tells us that it overrides some of the

20:12overrides all of the rules, but we haven't crossed it to try to

20:15understand what that means.

20:16But thank you.

20:17That's a very good point.

20:18Like if it's if it's something that doesn't

20:22form standards apply to the

20:24use, not necessarily the zoning classification.

20:26So we could still probably enforce our form standards.

20:28I just don't know if we run afoul of this language here.

20:30So that's part of one of the things we have to run through.

20:33Yes. Thank you.

20:34Um standards to.

20:38Wouldn't be able to impose any higher design standards, but

20:41only the form standards that

20:42exist in the zoning ordinance now.

20:44So it could be again, somewhere unintended consequence.

20:47Um, but that's a very good one.

20:50That's not a dumb question at all.

20:52But the lot size itself would be based on whatever you can

20:55get with the 20 units per acre,

20:58which most of our lots are much smaller than that now would not

21:01be inappropriate.

21:06We're meeting with the Housing Monday next week just to kind

21:11of keep the ball rolling.

21:15Any other questions?

21:17Yes. Regarding loopholes, um, is more and more established

21:21organizations or institutions that have been around and

21:25actually own land.

21:27Um, I would imagine there's going to be a bunch of

21:29non-profits that will start up if this gets initiated, trying

21:33to find another way around the five years.

21:36Is there any loopholes around that?

21:38Or is that just kind of stuck as it is?

21:40It's interesting.

21:41Um, we noticed that as well.

21:42There's no loophole around the five years and the, and the

21:45sunset for it is four years away.

21:47So it's supposed to try to stop people from coming in to try to

21:50get in.

21:50It's supposed to capture the

21:51ones that already own properties.

21:56Nothing to say that they've extended many things past the

21:59sunset date that shows up in a lot of inactive pills.

22:10Um, and obviously we have some time to think about it.

22:12Um, the meeting is next week and Men will share an update.

22:19Once we initiate, we'll bring forward the text amendment,

22:22hopefully in

22:24September. So bring the text amendment in October.

22:27We don't want to delay because we want to have this, this

22:30regime set up to take people

22:32that are asking for it, to use it.

22:34So that gives us some time to kind of kick it around and take

22:39other questions.

22:40Thank you.

22:43Thank you.

22:53I believe it's both,

22:55but don't quote me on that.

23:00We'll double.

23:01Check.

23:02Yes, please.

23:03That's another one that we'll have to figure out because

23:05that's outside of our wheelhouse too.

23:06But, um,

23:09if it stays, if they're getting a tax exemption for being a non

23:12profit property, how does that get cleaved off from that

23:15portion and what gets taxed.

23:16So we'll dive into that too.

23:21All this time they thought they were.

23:25Getting the tax bill and then going after the city because

23:30fully explained to them.

23:32I think it's I think it would apply to what what not the

23:36whole property, but to the property that's utilizing this.

23:38Yeah.

23:40It's not like a church.

23:42Correct, correct.

23:44Whatever gets cleaned off for to make this.

23:49Clear though that that that property because you're doing

23:52this is no.

23:58Taxes. Yeah.

24:16For the.

24:16Presentation.

24:26Remember a few months ago we had WPA come and brief you on

24:31some efforts to start doing, um, some public input and

24:35engagement in order to do a

24:38study on a smaller Church Street area plan, um, that

24:42could help influence the potential redevelopment of

24:45Calvert Square.

24:47Um,

24:48uh, so they have continued with their public input and they're

24:53coming to the commission to provide you some of the

24:55information of the public input.

24:56And then, um, at the end of the month, we'll request an

24:59initiation to adopt the proposed plan once they bring

25:03it forward and present it to you in full.

25:05Um, and so.

25:10We have a lot of things that just came crashing down.

25:16Thank you very much.

25:17Good afternoon, commissioners and staff.

25:19Peter Johnston with work program architects under

25:22contract for urban Design

25:24services with the City of Norfolk.

25:25And as Bobby mentioned, we started this study last spring

25:30and we briefed you on it.

25:31So we've cut down on kind of the history of it.

25:34For this presentation, we're mostly going to update you on

25:37things that we've focused on since that time.

25:39But just to remind you, the location is specifically the

25:42area of Church Street,

25:44just north of Brambleton Avenue, uh, heading up to, uh,

25:48Virginia Beach Boulevard.

25:50And, uh, it's bounded by the kindred neighborhood to the

25:53South Young Terrace to the west, Calvert Square to the

25:56east, and then Barberton and Olde Huntersville to the north.

25:59Um, so we're, we're really focused on the area between

26:02Brambleton and Virginia Beach Boulevard, which are the areas

26:06right within the the young Terrace and Calvert Square

26:10redevelopment area, but we extended up to Princess Anne

26:12Road to make sure that we captured the the Adex Theater,

26:16and so we could work with that and try to improve the

26:19conditions around the theater and support the institution.

26:23So the goals are to build on the master plan for Young

26:26Terrace in Calvert Square.

26:28As those are coming along, give some guidance to how they

26:30should treat Church Street.

26:31We've seen for the last

26:34ten years we've been working on

26:36this through the Saint Paul's transformation.

26:37A consistent goal of the community has been to

26:39reestablish Church Street as a

26:40commercial core of the community.

26:42And so this area warranted special attention to make sure

26:45that that principle is followed throughout this project, and

26:48then reestablish an urban development pattern in an area

26:50with a significant suburban style of development.

26:53We'll talk about that in a few minutes.

26:55Provide guidance for safe, attractive, multimodal

26:57streetscapes, and then guide future development for the

27:00adjacent, undeveloped city owned property, which there are

27:02quite a few along the stretch.

27:05Um, just the context of Church Street is a brief overview.

27:08It actually began as a very

27:10dense, walkable commercial corridor.

27:13Through segregation.

27:14It became Norfolk's Harlem of the South, and it was a major

27:17black cultural hub of the of the region.

27:20And then through integration, disinvestment and then urban

27:23renewal, the corridor weakened.

27:25And it's really kind of been

27:27hollowed out as a commercial corridor.

27:29And

27:32but a lot of it comes back to the street itself, not so much

27:35everything around it, but the actual street itself is what

27:37we're finding.

27:39And it has a long history with the automobile.

27:42Approximately two thirds of the Green Book listed properties or

27:45businesses within the city of Norfolk, were actually located

27:47right on this stretch of Church Street.

27:50About 20.

27:51So 20 some of them.

27:53Um, but then in the 1970s, there was a project to redesign

27:59and rebuild Church Street as more of a arterial to serve

28:03more suburban areas.

28:04And that made it so that it was very difficult for these retail

28:08establishments that have been designed around a dense,

28:10walkable urban street to survive.

28:12And so the properties around them began to be redeveloped to

28:15respond to this suburban type

28:18of street and type of development.

28:20And so that really eroded the ability of this street to serve

28:24its immediately surrounding residents who were still

28:26walking there.

28:27We talked to people who were simultaneously excited about

28:29some of the new shopping centers and the parking lots.

28:31And they said, you know, none of their friends owned cars,

28:33but they would walk their walk through the parking lot and go

28:36to the businesses.

28:37And the parking lots were kind of empty at the beginning

28:38because the people going there didn't have cars.

28:41So we can see that in the mapping.

28:43When we look at it.

28:44The image on the left is actually this area of Church

28:46Street as it was in, I believe, 1910.

28:50And then on the right is a map of it today.

28:52And these are about to scale.

28:54So you can see how much that

28:56urban fabric has changed over time.

28:57It was very dense, very walkable.

29:00And then it's been really spread out over time.

29:03So just a quick overview of the previous plans.

29:05It's been studied through various plans going back to the

29:071970s, where the redevelopment

29:09plan for Church Street from 1977.

29:11And then there was another revitalization plan in 97.

29:15And then in 2001.

29:16And almost all of these, uh,

29:19focused on shifting towards a more at the time, it was a more

29:23popular approach to suburban style.

29:25Um, and then focusing on residential development along

29:29the street, which further removed the commercial

29:32viability of the area.

29:35Uh, so, but with NF k 2050, this area has been designated a

29:40community mixed use area type, um, which really supports

29:44everything that the community is trying to do and that we're

29:46trying to do through this project.

29:48Uh, which means that it's much more focused on a multi mixed

29:54use, walkable urban center for

29:57the community that surrounds it.

29:58Um, and then there's a number of these throughout the city,

30:02but they look like what we think of as typical traditional

30:05urban commercial corridors.

30:08So the existing commercial buildings within this area, a

30:12lot of the original ones have been demolished.

30:13There's very few that remain from the from the images that

30:17you saw in the the 1910 image, most are from the 1960s.

30:21It's about the oldest and a lot from the 80s and 90s.

30:24And they were all developed in kind of that suburban strip

30:28pattern of development.

30:31We have gone to quite a few community engagement sessions,

30:33talk to a lot of people, including some task forces.

30:37We came here to planning commission.

30:39Um, we went to the resident community forum, which was held

30:43at scope, which is a fantastic event.

30:45It was probably one of my, one of the better engagement

30:48sessions I've had of my career was really fun to talk to

30:51people there, and they had so many memories of what used to

30:53be on Church Street.

30:54Um, I talked to CD, we've talked to individual property

30:58owners As we've been able to get Ahold of them, that's been

31:02actually quite a challenge to get Ahold of property owners

31:04through the through the commercial corridor.

31:06We had a table out at Fuze Fest with teens with a purpose

31:09talking about the the plan so that everybody was coming to

31:12Fuze Fest.

31:13We were engaging with them.

31:14Uh, the Saint Paul's Advisory Committee.

31:16And then we walked around with a local historian who grew up

31:19on Church Street and walked up and down the street, talked

31:22about what had happened over time.

31:23And that was actually really enlightening.

31:26And the things we heard were very consistent across every

31:29every conversation we had, which was about everybody was

31:33they really wanted food access and retail.

31:35Um, they want that commercial core to come back.

31:37They want it to support their community.

31:39They want that walkable, uh,

31:41center that they can call their home.

31:44Um, they want a mix of things with grocery stores,

31:47restaurants, food, uh, and

31:48neighborhood serving businesses.

31:50Really not much of a focus on anything regional, but very

31:52much locally serving kind of that immediate context.

31:55Uh, a lot of interest in arts and culture and entertainment.

31:59Just things to do is just something we're hearing across

32:02a lot of communities, something nearby to do.

32:03They don't want to have to go

32:05somewhere else to have entertainment.

32:07And then a lot of things for youth and family activities.

32:09We've heard from a lot of people that they're, you know,

32:12as they're raising kids, they

32:14need something for the kids to do.

32:15There's just not a lot in the area for the kids to do,

32:17especially when they get to be teenagers.

32:19What are they going to do with their time?

32:21And so

32:23people have looked a lot for those kinds of things,

32:27parks and wellness.

32:29So I think a lot of that is addressed with the Blue

32:31Greenway coming online down in kindred.

32:34Um, but there's a lot of interest in just having some

32:36places to go, places to be outside.

32:38And then safety and walkability has been a big concern.

32:42We did one of our engagement sessions standing outside of

32:44the Attics Theater for several hours, and even just standing

32:47there on that sidewalk, uh, holding up a decibel meter is

32:50about 90dB with the cars gunning it by, which is that's

32:54extremely loud.

32:55That's like standing next to a

32:57very loud power tool, trying to have a conversation.

33:00It's really difficult and it doesn't feel comfortable at the

33:03cars going by.

33:04They're accelerating pretty quickly through there.

33:06And then social support services within the community

33:09for the community was something that was asked for quite a bit.

33:13So we've taken this feedback and run it as we've been

33:17working through this, the beginnings of the Saint Paul

33:20Transformation Plan and trying to design this corridor to

33:25respond to the plan and also

33:26respond to these community requests.

33:29And so the first thing we

33:30wanted to address was the street.

33:32The street itself has played such a big role in how the

33:35community grew and then how it's experienced decline.

33:38And one of the places that we looked at.

33:40So this is Church Street on the left.

33:42And right now it's a four lane

33:44divided suburban style arterial.

33:47And we looked at a very similar street that we've been tracking

33:49for about 20 years.

33:51Um, it is in La Jolla, California, which is a very

33:55different demographic, just a very different place, but it

33:58has a very similar history to the street, and it has been a

34:01very successful model that we've seen work for about 20

34:04years now.

34:05And so they took a very similar four lane street that had

34:07almost actually had a higher traffic count than what we find

34:09on Church Street and changed it to one lane each way.

34:13And they used roundabouts instead of traffic lights,

34:15since the traffic lights and intersections are what really

34:17caused the backups.

34:19So allowing people to go through faster by using the

34:21roundabouts to get them through there.

34:23And you can see it actually creates a really beautiful

34:26place to just ignore the palm trees.

34:28But it's,

34:30uh, it's turned what used to be a, you know, almost the exact

34:34same kind of place, a lot of vacancies along the side and

34:37pretty much just dominated by asphalt into a place that is,

34:41uh, very pedestrian friendly.

34:43It's lined with thriving shops and stores.

34:45People go there from all over.

34:46Um, they bike through it, even though, you know, even in the

34:49La Jolla one, they don't actually have bike lanes, but

34:51it's, it slows things down enough where people are

34:53comfortable just walking through there.

34:55And so that is very much what we are looking at as a concept

34:58for this plan for Church Street.

34:59And so we've tested it with two roundabouts to help control

35:02that traffic, slow it down.

35:04The first is that only road

35:06where only intersects Church Street.

35:09And then the second would

35:10actually be up at Princess Anne Road.

35:13Um, and so.

35:16It's a weird glitch in the middle of the page.

35:18Um.

35:21This stretch would kind of tie Olney Road.

35:24That's one of the ones we're looking at continuing all the

35:26way across.

35:27So when you think about Olney Road, it's a fantastic east

35:29west connector straight from the gate at NSU, all the way

35:33over to the entrance to Sentara Hospital, going through this

35:39portion of

35:41Saint Paul's area, through the Neon District, through Ghent,

35:44and then connecting to the hospital.

35:46And we see that as very much

35:47like a local connection through.

35:49So people don't have to go down to Brambleton to go east west.

35:52They can actually go through

35:52more of their local connection street.

35:54So we see that actually hosting a lot of businesses.

35:57Um, the traffic counts up at Princess Anne are pretty low as

36:01well as they come into Church Street.

36:03And so using that as a way to slow traffic down, particularly

36:05going by the Attics theater as one of the things we were

36:08really interested in.

36:10The image on the top right is, one of the things we're working

36:12with is how do we get residential onto the street?

36:15We know it can't be fully commercial.

36:17It can't just there's just not enough retail activity to

36:20support everything at the ground floor.

36:22So we're working to design a retail store, a very adaptable

36:27set of frontages and building designs so that we can have

36:30residential on the ground floor.

36:32And it's comfortable and it feels natural without having

36:34just a lot of closed blinds and feeling like you need to

36:37protect yourself from the street.

36:38It should welcome people to the street.

36:41Um, so laying out plans for how those work and how they look

36:46and just trying to figure out how much density this area

36:50could support.

36:52You can see the image on the right.

36:54We actually looked at the shopping center where the

36:57Dollar General is and where the Save-A-Lot used to be.

37:01We've actually looked at that through a few other projects.

37:02We threw that into this one, but the retail counts are very,

37:05very high.

37:07So that'll be actually the bigger challenge is reducing

37:09the amount of retail to make it truly viable, putting it where

37:12it really needs to be, and then designing the spaces in between

37:15to facilitate moving between those retail spaces.

37:18We are working on some guidelines for architecture.

37:21Uh, we went a little more, you know, as a community.

37:25It was decided to go more contemporary with the kindred

37:29development of Saint Paul's.

37:30Uh, what we're hearing initially is that people want

37:32to go a little more traditional with the.

37:37Young Terrace and Calvert.

37:38And so we're showing how, you know, a fairly flexible system

37:42of design for frontages that really just builds on

37:45traditional practices, but it allows for a lot of flexibility

37:48and upside down buildings.

37:54But they kind of look the same.

37:56Just imagine there's more topography here

37:59and just resulting in a lot of very traditional buildings that

38:03work on these kind of streets, that grew up in this

38:06traditional pattern of development, but can flex

38:09between more contemporary designs where it's appropriate,

38:12more traditional ones, where that's appropriate, and they

38:14give a lot of division to the frontage, so you can break up

38:17spaces much easier and make it make a lot more sense.

38:20If you're going to have residential next to a

38:22residential amenity space, next to an actual retail or office

38:25space on that ground floor, having these frequent breaks in

38:29the building allows those to make a lot more sense.

38:34Any questions on the Saint Paul's?

38:42I

38:44Thank you.

38:45I'm very impressed with the amount of community engagement.

38:48I've attended at least one of the meetings and

38:55heard folks submit their their input and address concerns and

39:00things like that.

39:01And so I'm very appreciative of the work that you put into it.

39:04Um, I know I learned a lot

39:06about the history of Church Street.

39:09Um, the truth be told, um, podcast learned a lot about

39:13Ella Fitzgerald and all the folks that, that came through

39:17very historic, um, and also

39:19very familiar with the food desert.

39:20So, um, my hope is, is that that's something that we focus

39:24on and it sounds like that's been addressed as well.

39:27Um, I love the roundabouts.

39:29Um, I think that I was going to suggest I'm not suggest, but

39:33mention, um, broad Street in Richmond, the residential

39:37portion of Broad Street.

39:39They have lots of roundabouts.

39:41Yeah. And, um, and I found that for myself, just spending time

39:45there, um, driving and even

39:47walking, like it's very beneficial.

39:50And, um, I think I can think of at least one other neighborhood

39:54that I'd like to see that.

39:56Um, but, uh, no, I think this is wonderful.

39:59Thank you.

40:02Anything else?

40:04This, this is separate development of Young's and

40:10Cabbage Square.

40:11And all the redevelopment is happening there.

40:13How they intertwine, how they're going to impact what

40:15you are trying to do with the plan.

40:18With

40:20building back and forth.

40:23Kind of talking and sharing.

40:25Uh, so the idea is that this will serve as guidance for how

40:29that plan ends up, uh, at least in terms of this area

40:32immediately adjacent to Church Street.

40:36So that's why it's including both the, the street plan.

40:40The. The building plans as well as the architectural guidance.

40:47I will be honest.

40:49I think we all understand.

40:51I got a little ahead of their skis.

40:53Um. We were quickly.

40:55I quickly requested, um, WPA as our urban design contractor to

41:00come in.

41:01And let's start with the core here so that we know what to do

41:04and be pragmatic about it, which is why there's discussion

41:06about not overdoing the commercial, um, although it's

41:09necessary, but we want to make sure it still functions.

41:12Um, so we had them in short order, kind of do a bunch of

41:15public outreach and kind of tie into this.

41:17And we're hopefully working our way to where we can come from

41:20here and then work our way out, um, and influence what NRA is

41:23trying to do.

41:25So.

41:29I think last time, but you are not touching the garden on only

41:35in tertiary that that's not being impacted by this.

41:40You know.

41:41Which one?

41:45It is.

41:47We've been talking to teams with the purpose.

41:50So

41:51we're working through that and we've been honest with them

41:55that in our assessment of it, a just a big open space in the

42:01middle of a commercial corridor is not conducive to creating

42:06the kind of centralized activity that the community has

42:09asked for.

42:10And so they've been responsive to that.

42:12And so we're talking about what does their future look like

42:14with them?

42:19I'd like to be updated on that.

42:24They've been working directly

42:25with the teams with purpose leadership.

42:27And so we we have wanted to work very hard to try to make

42:31sure that we at least have that discussion and have an

42:34understanding of that city property with their current

42:37utilizing and kind of the the social impact that they provide

42:42to the community.

42:42Now, so there's a balance.

42:44We understand that.

42:46I think they've broken down a good communication barrier with

42:48the team.

42:49So we've had very direct conversations with them about

42:52analyzing their current building, what they can do

42:55there and then what they actually want to be able to do

42:57in the future.

42:58And so they're looking at, they're kind of working with

43:00some of our team to help come up with an idea of what a

43:02different building might look like for them,

43:05and still have the.

43:07Garden space.

43:08As all of it together.

43:10Yeah.

43:10Okay.

43:15Any other questions?

43:18Thank you.

43:21Madam chair.

43:22It's Peter still.

43:24Um, the next item will be a

43:27presentation about mental housing.

43:28Um, mental housing was presented to the Housing

43:31Commission last month.

43:33Um, you guys have had a presentation.

43:35I briefed you on kind of what zoning allows for middle

43:38housing currently.

43:39Now there are some slides that refer to that here.

43:42Um, but there was a pretty good discussion and some

43:46recommendations and work that we had, um, WPA do to figure

43:51out the viability of middle housing, um, what the hurdles

43:54are and what potential changes to our regulations and what

43:57things we should, uh, champion for at the state level.

44:01Um, in order to help, to help push this forward in a safe

44:06and, um, in a safe way that we can change maybe some of the

44:09building code or the other requirements to do it.

44:11So this presentation is just an update on kind of some of the

44:13work they've done and the

44:14outreach they've done with developers.

44:15Um, I will say this presentation was an hour long

44:18at the housing commission.

44:20We are not going an hour.

44:21Peter. So, so, um, we will, we will hopefully tighten this

44:25down and, but we have a lot of, there's a lot of information

44:27here and a lot of work that the team has done.

44:29So.

44:32You may notice.

44:33First off, if you've heard of missing middle.

44:34Um, this middle, uh, housing presentation is the same thing.

44:39Um, and so we've used it in different ways.

44:41We call it missing middle here.

44:42Through the rest of the presentation, we'll refer to it

44:44as middle housing.

44:45Everywhere else in the country is just calling it middle

44:47because we seem to have found it again.

44:49And everybody's very interested in re-implementing it.

44:52Um, so we're going to talk about the housing gap.

44:54Um, and then the economics of middle housing and Norfolk,

44:57which can be very brief.

44:59Uh, and then the, we've been doing some interviews, so we'll

45:01talk about what we've heard from people.

45:03Um, and then talk a little bit about building code site and

45:07utility burdens, some changes to zoning, and then we'll just

45:11summarize our recommendations.

45:14So the housing gap comes down to both a conceptual and

45:18financial gap in housing.

45:21And if you haven't read this book, Escaping the Housing

45:23Trap, I recommend it to everybody.

45:25I know.

45:26I bought lots of copies and just handed them out to people,

45:27and they're probably getting tired of hearing about it, but

45:29it's a really, really good explanation of what's going on

45:31in housing and how we got where we are right now to kind of

45:35pulls together almost everything I've read everywhere

45:37else into one book.

45:38It's very easy to understand, but it makes two major points

45:42that I think are really important to this conversation.

45:44The first is this one is that housing exists in these kind of

45:47two different.

45:50Functions within our society, and the first is its natural

45:53function as shelter.

45:55Everybody needs to live in a house of some type.

45:58And then we introduced this other concept of housing as

46:01investment, kind of through the middle of the 20th century.

46:04And the tension that we're seeing is that housing prices

46:07must go down in order for people to be able to afford

46:09their housing as shelter.

46:11But housing prices must continue to go up in order to

46:14sustain the economy and the

46:16function of housing as investment.

46:18And that's where we see kind of all of these issues stemming

46:22from with housing affordability.

46:26So as we're thinking about how to change this.

46:30Some of the big principles are that no neighborhood can be

46:33exempt from change.

46:34And that's one of the things that zoning kind of did through

46:37the 20th century.

46:38It was it made a lot of places feel like they didn't ever have

46:42to change.

46:43They kind of had their zone.

46:44They knew what they were going to be when they grew up, and

46:46they just stayed like that until something came along and

46:49kind of forced it.

46:50Um, but also no neighborhood should have to experience

46:53sudden radical change.

46:55But the system that's been built in that time forces this

46:59sudden radical change if a place is going to change.

47:02When you look at this diagram, what we've been building really

47:06for the last hundred years or so really only encompasses the

47:08two things on the far left and the far right.

47:10On the far left, we have our detached single family houses.

47:13Build those all over the country.

47:14Um, and we really stopped

47:16building everything in the middle.

47:17But then we jumped straight up to these kind of mid-rise

47:19large, largely full block apartment buildings.

47:23Um, and so if a place is going to change, if it is going to

47:25evolve, a lot of times you go straight from single family to

47:28a 4 or 5 story large apartment building, and that is sudden,

47:31radical change.

47:32And that's I think that's a lot of the tension you all see when

47:35you're evaluating applications.

47:38Is this really radical change from one thing to another?

47:41And our hope is that this middle housing can help

47:43alleviate some of that radical change and provide a better way

47:46to allow places to grow up.

47:50Middle housing used to just be housing.

47:52It was just what we built.

47:54It was so ubiquitous that it

47:56was in the Sears and Roebuck catalog.

47:58You could order a four pack or a six pack, show up as the

48:01parts on a rail car with an assembly manual, and you would

48:04build it.

48:06It was really popular among immigrants in particular, and

48:09they would order these, put them together, and then live in

48:13one of the units while renting the other three out.

48:16It was kind of the classic building wealth through real

48:18estate model of kind of, you know, economic mobility.

48:23You can do the math on the

48:26escalation in those housing costs.

48:28And they they do not math out because housing has investment

48:31has driven our housing up far beyond than it would go through

48:34just normal.

48:37Those were like 19, 2019, I think

48:41was when they had those.

48:43I was just commenting that.

48:45Yeah.

48:49You did have to put some labor in that was just for the parts.

48:52But yeah.

48:55Um, and so one of the other things that middle housing does

48:58is it allows for these types of communities that I think a lot

49:01of us actually want to live in.

49:03Uh, this is a study from Daniel

49:05book on, on missing middle housing.

49:07And the one on the left is the same site.

49:10Just done two different ways.

49:11You can kind of do it as a contemporary classic Texas

49:15donut with the parking garage in the middle, and you wrap it

49:17with a bunch of stories of

49:20apartments, and Um, you don't really get any porches.

49:24Uh, you know, it's pretty much completely impervious.

49:27Uh, and then you could also do pretty much the same amount of

49:30housing with a comparable amount of parking, but just do

49:33it in a smaller way by using

49:35these kind of missing middle principles.

49:37Um, this is how we see it play out a lot in Norfolk, uh, with

49:41these light yellow buildings being what we think of as

49:44single family, maybe duplex, but, uh, and then the orange

49:46ones in there being kind of the

49:47smaller, maybe 3 to 6 unit buildings.

49:51And a lot of times you find on the end of the block some of

49:53these larger buildings of 12 to maybe 24 units, and they all

49:57work together.

49:59You can see a lot of blocks like this throughout the city.

50:00Um, and it's just a very

50:02adaptable pattern of development.

50:05So we've looked at housing, middle housing throughout the

50:09city over time.

50:11Um, and just been mapping it out and understanding how it

50:14came to be, where it came from.

50:16So really interested in that

50:17original pattern of development.

50:19These gray dashed lines are the original streetcar lines and

50:21rail lines that went throughout the city.

50:23And you kind of see the the pattern of the housing forming

50:27at the core right around downtown.

50:28And then as it spread out along those rail lines through those

50:31streetcar suburbs, that was kind of the natural pattern of

50:34development as the city grew up.

50:37We did look at some of the economics behind it, and just

50:41looking at what happens to the housing values over time from

50:45different eras.

50:46I found this one pretty interesting, that the housing

50:49from the pre 1934 multifamily had these much higher values

50:54than from the middle part of the 20th century.

50:58And what we've been able to figure out is it's largely due

51:00to the requirements for parking, to spread the housing

51:03out and use the land much less efficiently.

51:05So you actually get less building and less improvement

51:09for each, each property.

51:12And then we get two questions whenever we talk about this.

51:15We've been talking about it for quite a while.

51:17And one of the first ones is how does the presence of middle

51:19housing affect appreciation of single family homes?

51:21Like, is this going to start driving my single family home

51:24value down if we allow

51:26apartments into the neighborhood?

51:28And then does it just cause lower property values?

51:31You know, I have actually heard if we have apartments are just,

51:34you know, are the properties

51:36around that going to have lower values?

51:37And so we have tested this based on these earlier middle

51:42housing ones.

51:43And the answer is no, it actually has a largely either

51:47no effect or it increases the value from what we've been able

51:50to find.

51:52Um, and then we tested it also against concentrations of the

51:55middle housing in relationship to the single family housing.

51:59Um, and you do see a dip on the far right where the, the

52:03appreciation of the single family houses near the, the

52:06very high concentrations of middle housing occurs.

52:09Uh, and what we found was that was actually because those

52:11areas are already the highest value property in the city,

52:14they just have a ceiling.

52:15So they can't really appreciate.

52:18At the same value as everything

52:19else because they're already so valuable.

52:21Um, which kind of goes against both of the assumptions that it

52:25might decrease values.

52:29So we did talk to several builders and developers, small,

52:32medium and large firms and a community bank.

52:34And we're working on getting some other banks in there, but

52:37those are the ones that we could actually get to answer

52:40the questions and kind of sit down and talk about it.

52:42Um, and the primary barrier to implementing middle housing is

52:45not demand.

52:47There's actually quite a bit of demand and there's really

52:48strong demand at the attainable, affordable end of

52:51the market.

52:52The problem and the barrier is in the pileup of financial

52:55regulatory infrastructure and process risk on these projects.

52:59And when you're trying to do a project that's between 4 and 12

53:02units, but you have the same amount of risk as a 150 unit

53:06development, it's very difficult to get the financing

53:08for that.

53:10It's very difficult to find somebody who's willing to put

53:11that much money at risk.

53:14And so that, uh, there's a lot of uncertainty that translates

53:17into those risks.

53:19Uh, they're going to spend a lot on design, engineering, and

53:22review, and then they have to go through this whole process

53:24and they don't really know what's going to happen at the

53:26end of it, whether or not they're going to be able to

53:27allow to build it, whether they're not going to be allowed

53:29to build the thing that they built their pro forma on, um,

53:33is just a huge amount of risk.

53:35And they have to put all that money in ahead of time.

53:37Um, let's see.

53:39They need a kind of 30 to 35% margin on it.

53:42And we're not seeing anything close to that when they try to

53:45pencil these out,

53:47um,

53:49see financing for these kinds of projects is very difficult.

53:53They kind of end up under, you know, once you can do

53:55residential loans for 1 to 4 units, once you get beyond four

53:59becomes into a commercial loan

54:01product, which has much higher requirements.

54:04And a lot of these projects are very difficult for large

54:08developers to do.

54:10We're finding a large developer is not really going to come

54:11down and do 4 to 12 units.

54:13It's just outside of their scope.

54:15So we're looking at having to scale up the small builders,

54:17but they can't qualify for these commercial loans.

54:21And then the other thing we heard is that the opportunities

54:23aren't visible enough.

54:24They just, you know, they're interested in doing it, but

54:26they found it difficult to figure out where they could

54:28build something or what would be allowed in a certain place.

54:34Um, and then some of the other things we're building code,

54:38getting in the way of making the projects pencil out.

54:40The one most commonly mentioned to us is the double stair

54:44requirement for anything over four stories.

54:46As they're getting into some of these larger units that do

54:49currently pencil out.

54:50Um, normally once they start applying the modern building

54:53code, it gets very difficult to make a pencil out.

54:55You have to use a lot more space up for non revenue

54:59generating uses, or you just get beyond the size that will

55:03actually fit on a, on a property.

55:05And they end up costing between 6 and 13% more just by adding

55:10those stairs.

55:11And so when you're trying to get that 30% margin and you're

55:15already tight on that, this really knocks it down.

55:18And then the other is the fire resistance ratings, because

55:20these buildings are in the commercial code.

55:22You have to go to two hour construction.

55:24You have to add sprinklers.

55:26And that adds even more cost on top of it.

55:30So North Carolina and Tennessee in particular, have addressed

55:33quite a bit of these issues

55:36pretty effectively at the state level.

55:38And then that's trickled down to a lot of localities who are

55:41making changes there.

55:42I won't go through all of this, but the common thread is that

55:45they generally trade that second stair and the mandatory

55:48sprinklers for higher fire resistance ratings, and then

55:52relying on the interconnected smoke alarms,

55:56which cuts costs significantly while really not decreasing any

56:01safety margins that are in the buildings.

56:06A lot of developers did mention, in particular the site

56:09and infrastructure burdens that they they encounter in

56:13particular, and new water and sewer connections as they're

56:15building on the infill sites, street cuts, drainage

56:19improvements, lighting or streetscapes, and kind of any

56:22sort of improvements beyond it.

56:24Large projects can carry these, but it's very difficult for a

56:28small project on a small site to put in that kind of

56:31infrastructure cost and actually be able to pencil out.

56:36Um, one of the big ones is stormwater regulations.

56:39And this is actually a state policy that Norfolk has to

56:42comply with.

56:44And then it has to get all of our developers to comply with

56:45on the city's behalf.

56:48So currently this does allow single family detached

56:51development under 2500ft to be

56:53exempt from a number of requirements.

56:56Um, and then the locality can kind of decide whether or not

57:01they're going to allow them to get out of other things at a

57:03different size.

57:04But that's only for the single family.

57:06So even though these middle housing buildings are about the

57:09same size, they have the same kind of stormwater impact as a

57:13single family house.

57:14They have to go through a full engineering study.

57:15They have to implement their own BMPs, which takes up a lot

57:18of their site.

57:19So it dramatically increases their cost just because they're

57:22considered a commercial building instead of a

57:25residential building.

57:28Bobby.

57:29So just very quickly, commissioners, just so that we

57:32remember we've done this presentation before.

57:34These are the current zoning districts that allow for rental

57:36housing in the current zoning ordinance.

57:38And Peter referred a lot to visibility of seeing it.

57:41Um, Jeremy and his staff and Susan and her staff are like,

57:45no one's talking to us about it.

57:46And part of it is the visibility.

57:48And so that's one thing that we do need to break down, but we

57:50do allow up to 24 units by right.

57:52And each of those districts, um, we, your, with your

57:57guidance and the adoption of city council, we have accessory

57:59dwelling units now.

58:00And we've had, we've had a reasonable uptick in requests

58:04for information for that as well as building.

58:07I think we're I don't know what the permit numbers are at this

58:10point in time.

58:10Maybe Melissa or Jeremy know.

58:12Um, but we have we've gotten more than I was expecting, to

58:15be honest with you, where people are looking to build and

58:17also requesting information

58:19about building it with new construction.

58:21And so that's, that's been another interesting thing

58:23that's been unlocked.

58:25And of course, the 25 foot lots, um, that you're fully

58:29familiar with that we've been allowing by right in

58:31Huntersville and Bruce's Park, hopefully looking to expand

58:33that in the future.

58:35Um, but here's all the zoning districts where all the, where

58:38you can do middle housing.

58:40Um, and then of course, you know that the K 2050, um,

58:44supports all of this.

58:46And this was very specific, um, that we wanted to make sure we

58:49went into.

58:50But the key thing here is the future land use map.

58:52Um, we no longer separate uses like a zoning map.

58:55We try to understand that we have areas of a community that

58:58are, that are supported together, and we try not to

59:02separate them out based on what their use is.

59:04So if we go to the next slide, it shows here the future land

59:08use map as well as the primary and secondary uses that we work

59:13very hard to try to show that, hey, if you can get community

59:15support and you're in the correct location, you can

59:18switch over to the secondary use.

59:20Although you may be in an area that has been traditionally

59:23single family.

59:24And because as we know, even in our more suburban communities,

59:28there are multifamily products

59:29that are right next to single family.

59:31It's just it's just not noticeable.

59:34Um, but we, it can't be jarring.

59:36As Peter said, that's the key is trying to figure out how to

59:38do that and go through a process.

59:39So we pushed the ball forward to try to let people at least

59:43be able to ask without it being hard now.

59:45And so hopefully this will help

59:46continue to change people's perceptions.

59:48But the first part is to make

59:49sure we change our planning perception.

59:51And of course, other recent zoning changes that deal with

59:54parking and manufactured housing.

59:56Um, so parking half space for multifamily in one space for

60:00single family, um, And then manufactured homes are required

60:04to be allowed to be placed anywhere that you allow stick

60:06built homes.

60:07Um and so, um, as well as the Faith and Housing Act that

60:11Francesca went over to us in the 25 foot single family lots.

60:15So.

60:19So.

60:21Knowing where the middle housing is permitted currently,

60:25we did an analysis on based on where it had been built

60:27traditionally, um, and found that 80% of it, or just over

60:3080% of it is in the traditional

60:32character district within the city.

60:33Um, about 40% of that is actually in the single family

60:36traditional zoning district

60:38where it is not currently permitted.

60:40Um, while the rest is in other areas that where it is

60:43currently permitted.

60:45Um, so looking at the

60:47two place types that I think are most interesting for the

60:52conversation around middle housing from 2050 are the

60:54sustained suburban, which really provides a more emphasis

60:57on the ADUs and allowing for that very gentle, almost

61:00unnoticeable increase in density.

61:02And the suburban areas, it happens in the back yard or

61:05within the building with just a little bit of that secondary

61:08use for the small multifamily

61:10to fill in in some of the areas.

61:13And then the sustained traditional, which does put a

61:16more emphasis on the multifamily small scale.

61:18And so that's kind of in all of our traditional areas within

61:21the traditional character district.

61:23Uh, you know, looking at the NF K 2050 provides guidance for

61:27how to implement that.

61:28Um, one of the things as we're looking about where to

61:31reintroduce middle housing

61:33that's really important is walkability.

61:36Middle housing is heavily dependent on being in a

61:38walkable place.

61:40Um, so while it may be possible, um, and maybe less

61:45friction to introduce it in places where we have more

61:47space, those places also tend to be less walkable and it

61:50becomes more difficult because a lot of the things that make

61:52middle housing so functional are the, the small scale, the

61:56compactness of it.

61:58and that's what makes it affordable.

62:00And as soon as you start adding the need for parking

62:03requirements, it spreads it out.

62:04And it also begins to not really pencil there and begins

62:07to impact communities in different ways.

62:11So

62:13our recommendations based on this research, one legalized

62:16middle housing where it belongs.

62:18So amending our regulations to reduce friction for the middle

62:21housing in SFT and the traditional character district.

62:25Um, restoring the geometry of these 20 to 35 foot lots that

62:30the areas were platted on.

62:31Um, and then reexamining, reexamining the lot Woodson

62:35areas for the small multifamily to make sure it's compatible,

62:38particularly with the reduced parking minimums that I believe

62:41you all just recently discussed and worked on.

62:43Uh, you know, now we don't need that much space for cars.

62:46Uh, we can actually use more of it for housing for people.

62:50Um, align the zoning map with FK 2050.

62:53Uh, growing equity goals so that our policy intent and our

62:57by right capacity actually match and then publish a map of

63:01the eligible sites, the zoning capacity and the applicable

63:04review pathway.

63:05Um, just these small builders that come in.

63:08Uh, and those are the ones we want to target.

63:10They kind of need to see where can they go and do this type of

63:14thing all in one place.

63:15It's, they don't have a whole lot of time to spend kind of

63:18piecing together little disparate pieces of the, of the

63:21ordinance and the policy.

63:23So the second would be reform

63:24the cost drivers and code and infrastructure.

63:26It's kind of a little bit more at the state level.

63:28So it's more of an advocacy role, but advocating for

63:32changes to building code and the stormwater changes that we

63:35talked about.

63:36Um, and then publishing clear standards for when offsite

63:39utility, sidewalk drainage and

63:41street improvements are required.

63:43Um, so not putting those same

63:44requirements on these smaller builders.

63:47Um, Virginia Beach actually has a pretty similar or interesting

63:50program where they have an on call sitework contractor that

63:55provides a fixed fee for making these common improvements for

63:59these smaller scale projects.

64:01And so if a builder is coming along and wants to build a

64:03duplex or triplex, they could go to the city, get that

64:07contractor, and they would just do that work for a fixed fee.

64:09And then I believe the contractor reimburses the city

64:11for it, but they know what that cost is going to be.

64:14And that predictability makes

64:16all the difference in the world.

64:20And then looking at what the city of Arlington has done for

64:22their stormwater, so for the city side of the stormwater

64:25approach to it, they've developed a house scale

64:27residential stormwater compliance program where

64:29they've basically done the engineering ahead of time for

64:33the developers of these smaller scale buildings and giving them

64:36a series of, uh.

64:40Stormwater, uh, implementations that they can do.

64:43So they also generally know what that cost is going to be.

64:46They know there's a pathway and they know how to do that.

64:50So it's something to look at as a model.

64:51Uh, They have slightly different requirements because

64:53I don't believe their Chesapeake Bay, but there's

64:56things that they can be done.

64:58And then the third set of recommendations would be about

65:01making the process work.

65:02So creating a small project pathway.

65:04Right now we have a very small

65:06project, kind of the under 2500.

65:08And then there's the over 2500.

65:10And these generally are, you know, everything.

65:13And then just single family houses.

65:15Um, and so we would recommend something that's a little more

65:17tailored to these middle housing ones.

65:20Probably a middle housing liaison who really knows the

65:22ins and outs of the process.

65:24Um, and then investing in mentoring and retention of

65:28institutional knowledge.

65:30Um, just so that staff kind of understands all the ins and

65:34outs of how, what kinds of challenges the developers and

65:37builders might run into.

65:40Um, providing financial

65:41assistance until the market's reestablished.

65:43These have not really been

65:44built for 80 some years, 90 years.

65:47So there isn't really a financial or much of a

65:51marketplace to provide it.

65:54A lot of people that we've talked to are financing these

65:57with friends and family, or just groups of investors that

66:00they meet on their own rather than actually through a

66:03financial institutions.

66:04So there are several ways where a city can get involved and

66:06help this market come back into being.

66:09And then working on building a local pipeline.

66:10Like we mentioned, the larger builders are probably not going

66:13to step down.

66:14So we need to build up smaller builders, which we're really

66:16excited about, just as a way to

66:17build wealth within the community.

66:19Um, so there are groups like the Incremental Development

66:23Alliance who does this all over the country, and they do a lot

66:25of training.

66:26They've been doing it in localities, uh, kind of all

66:29over the place.

66:31And they help people get within a few days, understand starting

66:34from zero, how do they get

66:35through this process and get it approved?

66:38And then I believe the last one is, uh,

66:41the pre-approved plans

66:45had a lot of success with the old Huntersville House plans.

66:48and we're recommending extending that to this small

66:51multifamily process.

66:54The great thing about the pre-approved plans is they

66:56eliminate pretty much all the friction because they've been

66:58vetted through the staff, they've been prevented by

67:01utilities, they've been vetted through the community.

67:03So everybody's in agreement with what they're getting.

67:05They know what they're getting.

67:06There's a lot of predictability to it, which only worked with

67:09builders to make sure that they know what it's going to be.

67:12Um,

67:14and it's been working well over in Huntersville for eight

67:17years, been over 100 homes built there using a set of

67:20pre-approved plans.

67:21Um, they're working well for the builders.

67:23It's working well for the community.

67:25And we'd really like to see this extended to that

67:28multifamily scale, which has been done recently in South

67:33Bend, Indiana.

67:34So they're building six packs out of multifamily, out of

67:36pre-approved plans right now.

67:39Um, so I think immediate next steps would be kind of work on

67:42the zoning to get everything aligned on zoning and where we

67:46want the middle housing.

67:47Uh, the pre-approved plan book.

67:50Uh, underway and an eligible site map.

67:52So it'd be really helpful to be able to see like where you can

67:54build things and what you can build there.

67:56Uh, try and get the building code and stormwater, uh,

67:59recommendations to the state.

68:01There are a lot of policies working through the state right

68:04now addressing these things, but they are also receiving

68:07opposition from some places.

68:08So, you know, support for those goes a long way.

68:11Um, and then providing a phased implementation schedule and a

68:15kind of a cost estimate for making the changes.

68:17And then we do think it would be really helpful to track

68:19these if we could have some kind of dashboard or some way

68:22of tracking, like what is actually happening on the

68:24ground over time as these changes are made and seeing,

68:28you know, what's coming in, what's being built, how long

68:31did it take to get built?

68:33And then like, what are the values?

68:34How are they impacting what's around it?

68:37So that was a little less than an hour.

68:42Any questions?

68:44I do in.

68:46Other cities that you could share with us that are doing

68:50some of this financial assistance?

68:52Yes. Um,

68:55maybe not off the top of my

68:56head, but I guess I can get you some.

68:58I know, um, South Bend.

69:01South bend definitely comes to mind.

69:03They've done a lot with it.

69:04Um, and there's a few others, I believe in Michigan, some in

69:07North Carolina.

69:08Um.

69:12I have also.

69:13Had a question similar maybe financing, but also small scale

69:18community based organizations like the community housing,

69:22make sure I have this right community housing development

69:24organization that, um, I think that would be, like you said,

69:28it's a, um, everybody wins.

69:31The community is involved and they get to benefit.

69:34Um, by being directly involved

69:36in development in the community.

69:38Have you all considered that?

69:40Uh, yes.

69:42If you have a community that has

69:45ones that are working really well, or any of the other

69:48community land trusts or other ways that are working, um,

69:51they're a great way.

69:52Almost anything that's outside of kind of the typical, uh,

69:56kind of, you know, organized financial institution that has,

70:00that has to deal with a secondary mortgage market.

70:02Um, anything outside of that is actually a great

70:06opportunity for implementing this housing because there are

70:09so many requirements on those institutions that they find it

70:12very difficult

70:15to justify making the loans on these types of development,

70:18because they don't really have anything to compare it to

70:21because it hasn't been built largely.

70:24I was thinking about Land Trusts two.

70:26I just don't know enough about them.

70:28Um, I know that, um, I think Maggie Walker and Richmond has

70:32been working out really well.

70:34Um, and a few other organizations.

70:36Um. I'm not going.

70:37I'm sorry.

70:39Okay. I just wanted to.

70:42I guess my, my, my question is.

70:44And what I wanted to emphasize that I heard over and over

70:47again, predictability is key

70:49for the developers and the community.

70:52And I think that getting folks involved from the beginning,

70:56from beginning to end works best.

70:58People care about what they build.

71:00Um, and, and yeah, so I'd be interested in, in all of the

71:06above and how to make all this happen.

71:09Thank you.

71:10Any other questions or comments?

71:17Regarding the slide about the department do not drive down

71:22home values.

71:23Uh,

71:24when communicating that to the

71:27communities, what's been the feedback?

71:29Once the data has been shown to them, that bad misconception.

71:33We just did for this.

71:34So we have not shared that with any communities.

71:37You're the second audience to see that data.

71:40But I think that's why it's important that.

71:41Everyone at the table from the very beginning, then you have

71:44the NIMBYs, like, you know, somehow or another, you know,

71:47apartments equals crime.

71:49And I'm not sure how that happened.

71:51Um, but I think just having folks from the beginning having

71:54that conversation, um,

71:56dispelling myths as we go along.

71:58There's so many myths to dispel.

72:02Yeah.

72:03And there's also a history to not reread it.

72:06Right. And so, um, that's the balance that we have to do

72:10because we, Norfolk has gone from allowing to not allowing

72:14to allowing and, and trying all kinds of things, which included

72:17zoning of ocean view to a down zoning of ocean view where we

72:19got sued to communities that have this, um, that are in the

72:24areas that are identified up here that this is prime for,

72:26but there are vacant multifamily sitting there right

72:28now that we can't get anybody to do anything with.

72:31So we don't want to relive the,

72:33the, the errors that happened before.

72:35So you know how I am.

72:37I'm very incremental and very pragmatic.

72:39I want to make sure I don't lose the whole thing by trying

72:41to push one thing forward.

72:42I want to make sure everyone's coming along.

72:44So Peter's first recommendation is a little a little vague.

72:46I should have read that first before I saw it on the screen.

72:49Um, I don't know if that's the first one.

72:51It might be to analyze the traditional character district

72:54and find where it's appropriate.

72:55Um, but the key is, is that we have to learn from what we did

72:59in the past and not let it relive, because there are folks

73:01right now in Park Place that are living next to places that

73:07are six packs, that are exactly what's being that we want, that

73:10aren't, that doesn't have a single person in it because

73:12they choose not to.

73:13And so they, we have to be very careful to, not to figure out

73:17how do we not what caused that situation and how do we make

73:21sure that we don't let that happen again?

73:23Right. And so there are some things that we can't do.

73:26There was, um, you know,

73:28history as it plays out caused flight in certain areas, which

73:31caused absentee landlords, which caused a whole bunch of

73:34other things that are some of the things we're dealing with

73:35at this point.

73:37Um, that's expanded itself because absentee landlords have

73:39turned into rights that are in, in New York and Toronto and

73:44far, far away, that you'll never find a person which has

73:46the same exact problem that we dealt with when they moved

73:49across to the next city.

73:51It's just exacerbated by

73:53hundreds and thousands of miles.

73:54So we just have to be very again, I'm very pragmatic.

73:58You know how I am.

73:58I'm very cautious.

73:59I don't want to lose.

74:00I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and and

74:02then lose everything.

74:04Right. And then, then, um, so, um, there's a lot of education

74:07that has to come with this, I believe, um, we just have to

74:10share as much information as possible and try to bring the

74:13community along.

74:14This commission has done a very good job of bringing the

74:16community along, as well as the council, um, to try to have us

74:20understand you're not going to lose, but also we're going to,

74:23we're going to gain as a community.

74:25So one of the interesting things I'll note is that I've

74:28already requested for WPA to start working with their.

74:34group of consultants that they have to help kind of scope out

74:37what it would look like to do a plan book, pre-approved plans

74:41for small scale, missing middle.

74:44Um, so that's kind of a first

74:45piece that we want to try to unlock.

74:48And then also, um, parking is an issue.

74:52Um, Huntersville comes up as one of our, one of our best

74:56stories of doing redevelopment.

74:57And then for those that have worked with the community, know

75:00that there's concerns about parking now because there's

75:02just an influx of people and

75:04where all these vacant lots were.

75:05And so how do we balance that?

75:07It's not a requirement, but how

75:09do we balance that community impact?

75:11Now, um, where you have so many cars on the street and how do

75:15we do that?

75:16So, um, there's, there's all

75:18this balancing that we need to go.

75:19That's not a, that's a good problem to have.

75:21I'll gladly take 100 new homes in Huntersville, um, with home

75:25ownership and people that, that

75:26are caring about the neighborhood.

75:28Um, and figure out a parking issue.

75:30So, um, but those are the things that we.

75:32Those are all the second and third order effects that we're

75:34looking at.

75:38So we have recommendations.

75:41Where we need to work.

75:43I think we need to work it.

75:44That's the key, right?

75:45I think I think a lot of this may come out of this

75:47presentation was given to the Housing Commission.

75:49The Housing Commission recommends and council adopts

75:52policy then, and we may go.

75:55We'll bring it to the Planning Commission to how to interpret

75:58and adopt that policy through our land use regulations.

76:01So, um, that's part of this whole process, which is why we

76:04want to make sure you were at

76:05the table after the Housing Commission.

76:07So this information.

76:08In this presentation.

76:09Will be in our Dropbox.

76:11Yes.

76:12We'll have another opportunity to kind of read through it and

76:15maybe we can share our recommendations to staff.

76:19There are more slides, I think there at the end right there,

76:21there's like 30 more slides if you want to look with more and

76:24more data.

76:25Um, it's it's.

76:27Another sandwich.

76:30So yeah, if you.

76:31That'll be.

76:32We'll get that in your dropbox.

76:33Thank you.

76:35Good job.

76:35Thank you.

76:36It was great.

76:38Very good.

76:41All right, one more.

76:42No, actually, we've already talked about faith and housing.

76:45Awesome. Um, well, again, thank you to all of our guests that

76:49came out today and all the

76:50information that you were sharing.

76:51Um, let's go ahead and talk

76:54through our public hearing preview.

77:10I think you have to exit out, Francesca.

77:13You have to go back to the public hearing.

77:19That's part of the.

77:20That's part of 100.

77:21Extra slides.

77:24The rest are in there.

77:25We just.

77:29I'm

77:30not sure herself.

77:31She's been dead a long.

77:35Time.

77:37There's a community land trust, I think, that's working its way

77:41in James City, county or county right now.

77:44Okay. Um, I'll have to get an update.

77:51Yes. Yes.

77:53You did.

77:53Yep.

77:57In Newport News,

78:00granddaughter went to Maggie Walker.

78:05Oh.

78:05You're fine.

78:08Um, drinking was continued from the last month's agenda.

78:12Um, due to conflicts and concerns between the tenants of

78:17the building and the property owner.

78:19Um, I don't have any real updates on this item.

78:23Essentially, the applicant told me that the property owner was

78:26okay with it moving forward.

78:27I emailed the property owner.

78:28The property owner said, I'm going to let you know by the

78:30end of the week.

78:32Um, I don't think that I think this item will go forward, but

78:35I think there are still some things that are being worked

78:37out between the property owner and the other tenants that may

78:40result in some changes to the application.

78:42There are no updates at this time.

78:43So I'm very briefly just going to go over this.

78:46I'm not going to read through every slide.

78:48Um.

78:57Uh.

79:01Okay. There we.

79:02Go.

79:04This is drinking.

79:05They're proposing to do almost the exact same thing they've

79:07been doing, which is a restaurant with entertainment

79:09and the sale of alcohol for off premise consumption.

79:12Um, all this needs to pass in the district.

79:15They're moving their hours up a little bit, and they're adding

79:18a dance floor and requesting to be allowed to have dancing at

79:21their establishment.

79:24The dancefloor is going to be in that yellow box in the

79:26bottom right corner.

79:27They have plenty of space to move the tables for that dance

79:29floor area to the other sections.

79:33They're requesting to be open from 9 a.m.

79:36to 11 p.m.

79:37Monday through Friday, and then 7 to 11 Saturday and Sunday,

79:39New Year's Eve, and December 12th to the 15th until 1 a.m.

79:43I believe that was at the request for their staff meeting

79:45to be open that late.

79:46Um, they're not changing their capacity and their

79:48entertainment is still limited to live band and karaoke.

79:51We don't have any violations or complaints for this location.

79:55Um, most of the complaints, from what I understand from

79:58talking to the tenants who are in the building, is that

80:00there's issues between the spaces.

80:04Um, there are two businesses that are above.

80:06Durkin. Um, before.

80:08Durkin there was a real estate establishment here, a real

80:11estate office management type place.

80:13So the places above are a yoga studio and an artist studio.

80:19Places that usually require a little bit more quiet to, uh,

80:23to operate, but there's no complaints or noise violations

80:26that we've been issued for outside the building because

80:29the sound either hasn't bothered anybody or hasn't

80:33risen to the level that it's been a violation.

80:35So there's usually things in that nature that get worked out

80:40between the property owner and the tenants.

80:43Um, some other concerns that have been raised are the

80:46parking, while they do meet the parking requirements for the

80:49zoning ordinance, going from a

80:53real estate management office to a restaurant with almost 300

80:56people has led to some conflicts between the

80:59businesses, um, as well as possibly the delivery vehicles

81:04blocking lots of parking while they've been setting up the,

81:07you know, the business and stuff like that.

81:10Those are what I've been told.

81:11And what's been talked to you.

81:13There are some letters that will be added to the the the

81:16public file once the discussions resolve.

81:19Um. if there are any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

81:22I know that was a brief overview of what's been going

81:25on in these discussions, but,

81:27um, it's still being worked through.

81:32Has anybody talked to them about the fact that there's

81:35absolutely no landscaping?

81:39Do we care about that?

81:41You know, we talked about we do.

81:44I mean, that's a really sterile looking building.

81:47I realize it's long standing.

81:49All that.

81:50A couple of pots, maybe.

81:53I do.

81:54Uh, the property owner, I think on a previous application was

81:57supposed to do some things in the.

81:58In the rear, but nothing in the front, though.

82:00Yeah. And the building we have found.

82:03So in the past we said put some pots

82:06and I can't tell you how many times the Planning Commission

82:09would go out later and everything in the pot is dead.

82:11So we kind of gave up on encouraging people to use that

82:14for planting.

82:18Nobody else is bothered by this.

82:21Just. Oh, well.

82:23She said.

82:24You've made the recommendations.

82:26They do it.

82:27And then a month later,

82:30it's just dirt.

82:31We're in the winter.

82:33I mean, I agree with you.

82:35I'd like to see something, but I can't think of a

82:39reasonable solution.

82:41Well,

82:42you know, I think we're all aware that the pots are dying

82:45because of,

82:47you know, they're not taking care of them.

82:49I don't realize I realize my pots die too, but.

82:52But you know what I mean.

82:54If if we're not asking them to maintain something, um, you get

82:59what you ask for.

83:01Yeah.

83:02I think we ran into several issues as far as like the cost,

83:06especially when establishing a new business.

83:08Um, and then I'm imagining being that close to the bay

83:13salt water, you know, depending on what they plant in the pot.

83:17Um, I think do we at some point offer like a.

83:23Like a list?

83:24Maybe not a list, didn't we?

83:27There is a list of plants that is provided in this area.

83:31We've got a department to help with that.

83:33That's true.

83:34Um, this is a high traffic

83:36area, and it's too bad it's so ugly.

83:40But that's just me.

83:42Okay.

83:43The building is up to the property line.

83:44There are concerns of adding, um.

83:46You know, they could do window boxes along all that, um.

83:48In that corner.

83:49Yeah. Where the outdoor seating is.

83:53Yeah.

83:55Okay. Never mind.

83:57I understand that and share concerns shared.

84:16Good afternoon commissioners.

84:17I'm here to share with you some terminal improvements over at

84:23the airport.

84:24And as I say that the

84:26departures terminal, not just terminal.

84:29Okay. So, um, everyone's familiar with where the airport

84:33is, and there has been some updates to the overall master

84:39plan for Norfolk International.

84:42What is coming before you through the design review

84:44process is a new ticketing hall and some other expansions and

84:48improvements to the departures terminal and um, facilities

84:52between the departures terminal and concourse A.

84:56So this is the condition today.

84:57If you're standing on the sidewalk for the arrivals

85:00terminal 2002, uh, near copy of the brutalist inspired, uh,

85:06departures terminal, looking across to the drop off lanes.

85:10So this is where most of the improvements in this phase are

85:14going to occur.

85:17On the left, that is the existing departures terminal

85:20and one of the surface parking lots that's in front.

85:23This will no longer be the condition.

85:26So what will happen is that

85:28surface parking lot is going to be.

85:33Reconfigured into essentially back of house.

85:36There's going to be some parking for employees, but

85:38there's going to be an improved shipping and cargo drop off

85:40area in this location.

85:43And all of that circulation for the looping all around.

85:45And you go to one side of the terminal, the other side of the

85:47terminal, all that's changing as part of improvements to the

85:51overall circulation of the site.

85:52So

85:54this will no longer be essentially a public part of

85:57the airport.

86:00This just is the simplified

86:02version of what is going to be happening.

86:04All of these things, except for the contract facility, which is

86:07the consolidated rental car facility, which is currently

86:11under construction.

86:13This is the core of what is being proposed by the airport

86:17right now.

86:18So starting with the ticketing hall and that area in front.

86:23Um, because they're going to be putting in a pedestrian bridge

86:27to connect the main terminal with the Conrack facility.

86:30That's what's going to essentially block off what was

86:34the parking lot and what was the circulatory loop.

86:38There will be some landscaping there as well as the road will

86:40be going away.

86:41So you're just going to have one lane that comes up and then

86:44it goes all the way back down.

86:45So we're all of that shifts forward.

86:48The ticketing hall originally was going to be much smaller,

86:52but over and then enlarged over a phased approach.

86:56It's simpler to just do it all at once, which is why it is

86:58larger than you may have seen in some previous iterations.

87:01So, um, I think we brought the facility to you last year and

87:05there was a site plan that showed it in a smaller

87:06footprint, but that's the reason why

87:09there will be a new baggage

87:10handling facility and a cut through.

87:14So all of this is the exterior review that we're doing.

87:18There are interior improvements that will be happening as well.

87:21The primary one being that the security checkpoint is going to

87:24be consolidated, consolidated down to one location in the

87:27main terminal area.

87:30And the intention is in that, where that blue square is for

87:33new baggage handling.

87:35That will be on the first story.

87:37And then that area outside is going to be improved for better

87:40and safer circulation for employees.

87:43But on that second level, where passengers are, you'll be able

87:48to go from concourse A to

87:49concourse B without exiting security.

87:51So everything kind of works together at this point.

87:55This is from the airport's master plan.

87:57So you can kind of see how this aligns.

88:00Everything that's being done on the terminal side is to help

88:05improve wayfinding and circulation, but also to

88:09improve and support some of the other improved plans for a new

88:14concourse at some point.

88:15Other things with the air travel.

88:19This is a bird's eye view of the proposed changes.

88:22So in the foreground that's the consolidated car facility.

88:27You can see where that bridge connects over to the main

88:29terminal, which is what's going to separate the ticketing hall

88:32from the main departure terminal.

88:35The existing pedestrian bridge

88:36connecting over to the arrivals terminal.

88:38And you can see the changes made to the configuration of

88:41the street.

88:43The airport is going for a new design vocabulary here.

88:48Um, when the arrivals terminal was built in 2002, as I said

88:52before, it was very much.

88:54We are continuing with what has been established here in

88:57Norfolk from the 1971 design, and what is being proposed now

89:03is a shift towards what we're seeing with other contemporary

89:07design at airports.

89:10So I just have a few views here of their renderings that long

89:14building on the right with landscaping in front, that's

89:16the pedestrian bridge.

89:19This is coming.

89:21If you're going to be coming up

89:22to the to pick up arrivals folks.

89:26So this is pretty much the only vantage point from the public

89:29realm that you will still see the original terminal.

89:34All the other views of it are pretty much going to be

89:37screened from anywhere that you'd be driving in a vehicle,

89:41or if you can somehow peek at it through some of the windows

89:44inside the airport itself.

89:48Section view.

89:49So you can see they're going to be reworking the ticketing

89:51area, um, and really trying to improve the pedestrian

89:56experience and cover some of that first lane of the four

89:59lanes for, for drop off and pickup.

90:06Material palette will be

90:09pretty typical laminated tempered glass.

90:11They are planning to use a

90:13clear glass as much as they can.

90:15They are aware of conversations about bird safe glass.

90:18They use it elsewhere on the facility campus.

90:22Most of what is being proposed for cladding is going to be

90:25various types of metal composite panels, which have

90:28already been used with other parts of the airport, and then

90:31a dark CMU block.

90:34So a very different change.

90:37Um, I'm going to pause here because you can see that swoop.

90:42So the

90:44Architectural Review Board had a lot of reservations about the

90:48directional shift in terms of vocabulary at the site.

90:52Um mostly driven by that shape of the roof.

90:56Um, there were a lot of comments that it was very

90:59similar to Dulles and concerns that it didn't give a strong

91:03enough identity for Norfolk as a as its own specific location,

91:09and especially with all of the changes that have had to be

91:11made for safety reasons, but also for accommodating

91:14development, that changes to the canopy out there.

91:16Um, the board just noted that there's been a very large

91:20change in character at the airport and just wanting to

91:22find a way to have a stronger, unique identity,

91:27but also understanding that at some point, as the airport has

91:31said, a shift does need to be made.

91:33They have a lot of issues maintaining the materials that

91:36are already out there.

91:37Um, the last time they had to try to find something for the

91:40concrete that they had, they had to go across five different

91:42states to find it.

91:43So there's a lot of reasons why the material palette especially

91:46is changing.

91:47Um, but this was more specific to the form of the building.

91:51So there wasn't necessarily an opposition to a new

91:55design. Just did this go far enough in one way or the other?

92:00Ultimately, the A or B did vote on Tuesday that to recommend to

92:05you all approval of the application as it was

92:09submitted, with the concern that the design doesn't

92:11significantly differentiate

92:12itself from other airports in Virginia.

92:22You mentioned about the different shape of that.

92:27They did not.

92:29Ellis is going to be redone, so maybe now will be unique.

92:40Were you going to add anything?

92:42I'm just worried about getting in and out of the airport.

92:43So yeah.

92:46Sorry. No I understand.

92:47It's more of a function thing.

92:49I think from my perspective too.

92:51So. Yeah.

92:53Okay. Thank you.

92:54Thank you.

93:01Okay.

93:02The next item on our agenda is Boss Queen's Soul Cafe

93:07Permanent 5802 East Virginia Beach Boulevard.

93:09This is in Janaf on the east side of North Military Highway.

93:12It's operating as boss Queen Soul Cafe right now.

93:15It's been open for since 2002,

93:18and the purpose is to continue operating the restaurant with

93:20live entertainment, alcoholic beverages, modified hours of

93:23operation, and entertainment options.

93:26So this is consistent with NF K 2050, which designates this as

93:29a regional activity center

93:30where commercial is a primary use.

93:32The property is zoned CRJ regional Commercial.

93:35This request needs a conditional use permit for live

93:37entertainment and for the sale

93:38of alcohol on premises after 5 p.m..

93:42Here's a picture of the building again.

93:44They got a conditional use permit in 2022 to operate.

93:47Um, there are some modifications.

93:50They did redo part of their floor plan to accommodate a

93:52dance floor because they're now

93:53requesting a DJ as a form of entertainment

93:58under their previous operation.

94:01They have a dance floor layout and a non-dance floor layout.

94:04Under the previous operation, there were 11 to 10 Sunday

94:07through Thursday and 11 until midnight Friday and Saturday,

94:11with the DJ and operating after 11:00 pm.

94:14They would have been considered

94:15a nightclub under the zoning ordinance.

94:18So now they're only requesting to be open until 11 p.m., seven

94:22days a week.

94:23So they're not a nightclub, they're just a restaurant with

94:25live entertainment.

94:27The capacity did change a little bit 147 seats indoors

94:30and a total capacity of 221.

94:32Just allowing a few more people because you're taking away some

94:35of those tables and chairs for the dance floor area.

94:37And again, the big change in the form of entertainment is

94:40the disc jockey.

94:42Um, they did come to our notice to renew their application

94:45because one of our inspectors randomly went out to, as part

94:49of the,

94:51the business sweep that we did and found that their CPU from

94:552022 did expire.

94:57Um, all entertainment applications, generally

95:00speaking, are given a two year sunset.

95:03This application was given an 18 month sunset.

95:05I don't know, I don't remember the reasoning behind that

95:08exactly, but there was expired in at the end of 2023 and they

95:14did not renew their Sep until we we went out and saw that

95:17they had.

95:17That their CPU was expired.

95:21We did also find on various social media posts and, uh,

95:28through investigations that they did have DJ when they were

95:30not authorized to.

95:32And we did find that they were, um, using a third party

95:37promoter to collect fees for their events and tickets for

95:40their events.

95:42Um, that issue in particular has been rectified even during

95:47our business action team meeting, there was a person who

95:51was going to be playing music

95:54at one of, at the, at the venue.

95:57Um, and they were requesting donations through their website

95:59and we told them that's not allowed either.

96:01Um, so you can't with a third party promoter unless you

96:04specifically allow it, which generally speaking in Norfolk,

96:07it leads to problems.

96:08Um, we do have exceptions for non profit for non-profits to

96:12do it, but generally speaking, your entertainers should not be

96:15selling tickets to your establishment.

96:17You as the operator of the venue should be the one

96:20collecting fees, handling tickets.

96:22That way you know how many

96:23people are coming to your establishment.

96:24You can plan security.

96:26That way you can plan all the

96:27other safety aspects of your operation.

96:29Whereas a third party promoter I pick on DJ Bob, I don't know

96:32who DJ Bob is, but he gets picked on a lot by me.

96:35Um, DJ Bob will sell 500 tickets or DJ Bob's manager

96:39will sell 500 tickets, and then you'll have 500 people there

96:41for a 200 person capacity, and you have people outside waiting

96:44to get in.

96:45So that's a little bit of background just on the promoter

96:46aspect of this operation.

96:48Um, we do have three calls to the police for this location,

96:52specifically for this establishment in the last year,

96:55um, both for um disturbance and disorderly.

97:00Um those were the, the

97:01information given to us by the, uh,

97:05by the police.

97:05I do have those reports.

97:07Um, I can make them available upon request.

97:09Um I have not had a chance to review them yet.

97:12When we read the reports, they are dealing with someone that

97:15came to the establishment and became disorderly or they were

97:18homeless related.

97:19So the three, the three violate those.

97:21Three calls for service were not directly attributed to

97:23their operation.

97:24So, um.

97:27What do you recommend?

97:35You know.

97:36We normally don't share a recommendation now.

97:38Um, but we um staff does have some reservations because of

97:42the operations.

97:44Um I'll say that um.

97:46With.

97:47The previous operations outside of the previous conditional use

97:50permit approved.

97:52The CP expiring the.

97:54Having the DJ when they weren't supposed to, and having third

97:57party promoters collect and

97:58sell tickets and collect revenue.

98:00They were allowed to collect revenue on certain days of the

98:03week, which we also think they did outside of their Sep.

98:07I think believe previously was just Friday and Saturday they

98:10had requested.

98:12Um, but when you combine those three things, we do have some

98:15reservations about

98:18definitely. At least not, you know, usually when people come

98:20back after they've had no issues, we say no expiration.

98:24Um, if staff were to recommend an approval, which we don't

98:27know yet, we're still debating internally.

98:30It would be a two year sunset again to make sure that they

98:32can operate, especially with the DJ, because DJ's have

98:37historically been problematic for Norfolk.

98:42Is there.

98:44Is there any

98:46reason.

98:47You can find for the 18 month sunset versus the two years?

98:50That was the.

98:50We used to do 18 month previously.

98:52That's how it.

98:53It might have been a carryover from 2022 was the Wild West.

98:56So yeah, we figured.

98:58And we changed that because 18 months.

99:00We figured it wasn't really enough time to give them

99:02because 18 months they're

99:03applying several months before that.

99:05And it's really not giving us

99:06enough time to see how they operate.

99:08So we switched it to consistently two years.

99:10Okay.

99:11All right.

99:12I was just curious if there was a.

99:13Yeah, no, no.

99:14We just realized they were already reapplying and they

99:16don't have a track record.

99:18So what would happen is they would take six months to open

99:20and then.

99:21And then they would not have anything for us to to face.

99:26Thank you.

99:28I may have missed it.

99:29They're not approved.

99:32No.

99:36Is it the.

99:39Discussions with them when they try to apply for banquet.

99:45So restaurants have the ability to reserve space for private

99:51parties, and they can be closed to the public for private

99:55events, as long as they're not

99:56charging a fee to rent out the facility.

99:59That is the big difference between what a restaurant

100:02 | operation and a banquet is, is when you charge someone a fee

100:04 | to rent out the facility.

100:07 | So it's still operating as a restaurant.

100:08 | It's just a private restaurant.

100:10 | This is someone else who was in the space that does.

100:13 | Not excuse them.

100:15 | That would involve the third party.

100:17 | Okay. No.

100:18 | Okay. Never mind.

100:20 | I had a question about that, too.

100:22 | As far as both the exploration and the third party.

100:25 | Do you think that it was because 22?

100:26 | Was the Wild West just come back into.

100:29 | Um. We were online for the longest time and so there was a

100:33 | lot of, uh, transition, I would say.

100:36 | Um, and I wondered if this was a situation of education and

100:41 | that maybe they didn't.

100:44 | They didn't realize that they couldn't do it.

100:47 | Or did you get the idea that that wasn't the case.

100:51 | With regards to the expiration?

100:52 | At least we make it explicitly clear both in our presentation

100:56 | and recommendation to the Commission, as well as our

100:58 | several discussions.

100:59 | We have a pre-application meeting with the applicant.

101:00 | We have the business action

101:01 | team meeting with the applicant.

101:03 | We make it explicitly clear that there's a sunset

101:05 | expiration on your conditional use permit.

101:06 | As a first time operator of

101:08 | entertainment in the city of Norfolk.

101:10 | Um, with regards to the sunset, I don't remember exactly what

101:15 | the date of it would have been.

101:16 | Um, and we try to clarify third party promoter as best we can.

101:21 | Like I said, I've used DJ Bob as an example for a number of

101:24 | years now.

101:25 | Um, if DJ Bob is out there listening, I apologize.

101:29 | Um,

101:31 | I did deal from Susan.

101:34 | We do have that conversation with them very clearly that you

101:39 | cannot have.

101:40 | I mean, we spend a lot of time

101:41 | on that when we go over the applications.

101:43 | So it's shocking to me for

101:45 | someone to say, oh, we didn't know.

101:46 | We also send them a copy of the conditions which talks about

101:49 | all of this.

101:50 | She did sign it, so.

101:56 | I wouldn't as much.

101:57 | Although the expiration is bad.

101:59 | It's also bad on us because we didn't catch it.

102:01 | So um, but that being said, I think the key here is also how

102:06 | responsive she's been to the team.

102:10 | Can you describe when you've pointed out the things that how

102:13 | she's operated, how, what has the response been?

102:19 | She.

102:22 | She's I genuinely think she's earnest in her attempt to try

102:26 | to get back under compliance.

102:28 | But there have been a lot of times that it's taken multiple

102:30 | attempts and we've had to go almost.

102:33 | You know, we we say when we first realized that our event

102:36 | was expired.

102:37 | No entertainment.

102:38 | Well, she's still saying, oh, I'm selling tickets.

102:40 | I still have a mixology class coming up.

102:42 | Can I do that?

102:43 | No. Um, and when we look at mixology event online,

102:49 | the mixology people are the ones collecting the fee.

102:52 | And even after that conversation, then we had the

102:54 | person who was soliciting the donations for the charitable

102:57 | music thing through a different non her, not through her

103:01 | through their own private thing.

103:03 | So we've had to go through a lot of repetitions with this to

103:07 | try to make sure she

103:08 | understands exactly what's happening.

103:10 | I will say the

103:12 | last several years, we've seen a proliferation of people doing

103:16 | events through eventbrite, which is fine as long as the

103:19 | event is organized and linked through the venue.

103:26 | But the problem is all these people end up using, you know,

103:29 | if there's a wedding show, the wedding show will be the one

103:32 | selling tickets, which is not allowed in Norfolk.

103:35 | Um, through the, through the way we set up the conditional

103:38 | use permits through this for this operation.

103:41 | Um, I think she's trying to do the right thing,

103:45 | but there's a lot of, it's been a long road to get here and get

103:49 | her operating correctly.

103:54 | Like I said, we're torn.

103:58 | Any other questions?

104:15 | All right.

104:15 | Good afternoon.

104:17 | Commission. This is Martin soul Food conditions permanent 5100

104:19 | East Boulevard.

104:21 | Location. Northeast corner of North Military Highway and

104:24 | North Virginia, East Virginia Beach Boulevard.

104:26 | Um, it's proposal to allow a restaurant with extended hours,

104:29 | live entertainment and alcohol for on premise consumption.

104:32 | You may remember the Sep.

104:34 | They were in March of last year.

104:36 | This year.

104:38 | Sorry. One of the owners did leave and has been replaced by

104:40 | a new owner.

104:41 | So due to the change in

104:42 | ownership they do require new cup.

104:44 | No other changes other than the change in ownership.

104:48 | Proposed use is consistent and FK 2050 puts us in the regional

104:52 | activity center place type zoning CRJ regional commercial

104:56 | in this district to see if he is required to operate past 11

104:59 | p.m., provide live entertainment and sell alcohol

105:01 | for on premise consumption after 5 p.m..

105:05 | Here's a picture of the site.

105:07 | Originally operated as Uno's Pizzeria until 2025.

105:10 | Martin did receive approval to open without alcohol in 2025.

105:14 | That was July 2025 and a Sep for extended hours live

105:17 | entertainment alcohol sales.

105:19 | Like I said earlier this year, um,

105:23 | they have had a soft opening and 1 or 2 openings for

105:26 | charity, but other than that, they really have not been open

105:28 | at all.

105:29 | Um, as you can see there's two outdoor seating areas.

105:31 | One on the left is the uncovered.

105:32 | The one on the right is the cupboard.

105:33 | That's where the outdoor.

105:34 | I'm sorry, the entertainment will be.

105:37 | And as a condition that those vinyl covers will be required

105:39 | to be closed anytime there's live entertainment.

105:43 | Here's the floor plan again outlining the outdoor

105:45 | entertainment areas.

105:46 | The purple circle that is the stage.

105:49 | The stage will be.

105:50 | And there'll be no DJ or no dance floor.

105:54 | Hours really aren't changing much.

105:56 | They did ask be open a little later.

105:58 | Hours of operation 11 a.m.

105:59 | to 12 midnight, seven days a week for live entertainment.

106:02 | 11 a.m.

106:03 | to 10 p.m.

106:04 | Sunday through Thursday and 11 a.m.

106:06 | to 12 midnight Friday and Saturday.

106:09 | No change to the capacity and then no change.

106:11 | Entertainment options, which will include live bands,

106:13 | karaoke comedian and trivia.

106:16 | The Lake Taylor Civic League does support this and we will

106:18 | recommend it to your sunset for this.

106:22 | Any questions?

106:24 | So when Pizzeria Uno was operating this, there was a

106:28 | really significant issue with.

106:30 | Can you go back to that floor plan?

106:33 | This floor plan.

106:34 | So that is where the stage is.

106:37 | There's a parking lot right there.

106:38 | So what was happening was people were coming parking,

106:40 | drinking, not going in and watching, and they weren't

106:44 | doing anything about it.

106:45 | Pizzeria Uno.

106:46 | So I think Pizzeria Uno came back and they asked for a DJ.

106:49 | They were shut down.

106:49 | They closed.

106:50 | We had the following applicant.

106:52 | We had a very detailed discussion with her about that,

106:54 | about that was an issue.

106:55 | There was no DJ this time and not doing.

106:58 | They said, that's not going to happen.

106:59 | Um, so and then that applicant, it was a brother and sister.

107:04 | Sister went away.

107:05 | We've got the brother and a new owner.

107:07 | Uh, and so we had that same very clear conversation with

107:11 | them is you are to control that parking lot.

107:14 | If we have problems out there, that's the problem that's going

107:16 | to reflect on your conditional use permit.

107:21 | Thank you.

107:23 | Of the owners.

107:24 | Which one remained?

107:25 | It was.

107:25 | The gentleman.

107:26 | The gentleman.

107:27 | And he's had the previous restaurant, I believe in

107:30 | Chesapeake, correct?

107:32 | I think.

107:33 | It was in.

107:33 | Janet.

107:34 | It was in Janet.

107:35 | It was it was one of the parcel or the units inside the

107:37 | shopping center.

107:39 | Okay. And the new owner comes from the Newport News location.

107:41 | They did have Newport News.

107:42 | That's where the new owner comes from.

107:46 | Anything else?

107:53 | All right.

107:54 | Continuing with our theme of

107:55 | locations you guys have seen recently.

107:58 | Dockside Social Conditioning, permanent 4300 College Avenue

108:01 | on the northeast corner of

108:02 | College Ave and West 43rd Street.

108:04 | This is the former Max barge.

108:06 | Um, the proposal is to have a restaurant with extended hours,

108:08 | the sale of alcoholic beverages

108:09 | for on premise and live entertainment.

108:12 | This is consistent with NFPA 2050 designated as community

108:15 | mixed use, where commercial is a primary use property zoned CC

108:19 | community commercial.

108:20 | In this district, you need a c p for operating restaurant

108:23 | after 11:00 PM to sell alcohol after 5 p.m.

108:27 | and to have live entertainment.

108:29 | So here's a picture of the site.

108:31 | Um, they've done some decent exterior work to this building

108:34 | to paint it up a little bit.

108:35 | Um, they restripe the parking lot.

108:38 | This is another picture just kind of looking more at the

108:40 | parking lot.

108:41 | There's the city of Norfolk, uh, SUV.

108:43 | Um,

108:45 | one of the recommendations that staff talked about with the

108:48 | applicant was that they were to buffer that parking area from

108:52 | College Avenue to install a row of shrubs, um, which is

108:56 | consistent with our recommendation for restaurants

108:59 | operating with entertainment to do, um, landscaping

109:02 | improvements that don't require

109:04 | the removal of concrete or asphalt.

109:06 | Um, the applicant was about to do it and we said, wait until

109:09 | you get approved from council first.

109:11 | Um, so it will be a condition in the staff report with our

109:15 | recommendation comes out.

109:17 | This is the same floor plan as Max barge.

109:20 | The only difference being the the entertainment area.

109:23 | It's in the same place, but the tables would be removed.

109:25 | When there's entertainment, they have a storage area that

109:28 | they'll be able to put those tables in.

109:31 | So Max barge requested from 6:30 a.m.

109:33 | until 2 a.m., seven days a week.

109:35 | Dockside is requesting 7 to 2.

109:36 | Seven days a week.

109:38 | The hours for the sale of alcohol on premises.

109:40 | Max barge at 630 to 2.

109:42 | Dockside is requesting 11 until two.

109:45 | The hours for live entertainment are 630 to 2 for

109:48 | Max barge.

109:49 | Dockside is requesting at 11 a.m.

109:50 | to 10 p.m., seven days a week.

109:53 | This was what they discussed with the Highland Park Civic

109:55 | League and Highland Park Civic League.

109:56 | Asked that they add that to their application, so that will

109:59 | be forthcoming and it will be in our conditions as well.

110:02 | Um, so if you see the application page right now, it

110:05 | will not show the stop the entertainment at 10 p.m..

110:10 | Um, the occupancy is not changing.

110:13 | It's 354 total capacity, just changing slightly based on

110:16 | having entertainment or not having entertainment.

110:18 | How many chairs there are.

110:19 | Um, and the entertainment is changing a little bit.

110:22 | Live band, karaoke, comedian poetry reading, swapping out

110:25 | comedian for trivia.

110:26 | Because comedians aren't that popular right now.

110:28 | Um.

110:30 | Poetry reading.

110:32 | Apparently.

110:33 | I'm curious about.

110:35 | Poetry reading and just spoken word, I think are like kind of

110:40 | a mix up.

110:40 | And they just.

110:42 | Deejays.

110:43 | Especially DJ and not outside.

110:49 | Not in the market.

110:50 | That's

110:51 | a little bit of information about the applicant.

110:53 | This applicant was operating coastal country over in the

110:56 | East Beach shopping Center.

110:58 | Um they sold that business and or moved to and are opening a

111:01 | new business here.

111:03 | So they do have experience operating a restaurant.

111:05 | Um,

111:07 | they met with both the Colonial Place, Riverview Civic League

111:10 | and the Highland Park Civic League.

111:12 | I believe they are scheduled to go back to the Colonial Place

111:14 | Riverview Civic League, just to go over a little bit more about

111:16 | their operations.

111:18 | They have agreed, as well as

111:21 | the, uh, the entertainment option.

111:23 | Hours to close the outdoor dining at 10:00, seven days a

111:26 | week, as well as keep the

111:27 | garage doors closed at all times.

111:29 | They're having entertainment and there's no entertainment on

111:31 | the patio or that area.

111:33 | So this should help mitigate any of the noise issues

111:37 | extending across the water, which was a concern with the

111:39 | previous Max barge and obviously has been a concern

111:42 | for several of the businesses.

111:43 | There

111:45 | are those requirements in line with the last time you saw.

111:49 | Max March, we were trying to

111:51 | figure out hours with the neighborhood.

111:54 | They're similar.

111:55 | It's a little more strict.

111:56 | I think the outdoor dining in the previous recommendation was

111:59 | 10:00 Sunday through Thursday and 11:00 Friday and Saturday.

112:02 | Um, the garage door was

112:04 | required to be closed after 9 p.m.

112:06 | when there was entertainment.

112:07 | But before 9 p.m., the garage door was allowed to be open

112:10 | under the previous operator, who again never opened.

112:13 | Um, but this is what the applicant discussed with the

112:15 | Civic League.

112:16 | And the Civic League respects that proffer, so to speak.

112:20 | And it's something that can also be revisited in two years

112:22 | since this is a first time operator with entertainment.

112:24 | If there's no issues, it's one of those things that could be

112:27 | expanded upon.

112:31 | A question about the dumpster.

112:33 | And maybe it was just out in the parking lot because things

112:35 | were getting moved around that green.

112:38 | Is that not the dumpster?

112:39 | I believe that's a construction.

112:40 | Construction.

112:41 | Oh, okay.

112:42 | Okay, good.

112:43 | I was like, that doesn't look right.

112:44 | Go to the next slide.

112:47 | It looks like if you look straight back, that fenced in

112:50 | area is the actual action.

112:51 | Okay. Thank you.

112:54 | It's the same.

112:54 | Dockside is the beach.

112:56 | I don't think so.

112:57 | No.

112:57 | Too bad.

113:01 | Any other questions?

113:04 | Thank you.

113:05 | All right.

113:06 | Thank you.

113:07 | Lots of places that we.

113:09 | Have seen before in previous.

113:10 | Presentations.

113:11 | This is a renewal for BJ Juice Bar at 3016 Princess Anne Road

113:16 | on the northwest side of East Princess Anne Road between

113:18 | Ballantyne and Godfrey.

113:20 | It's operating as BJG spa.

113:23 | It proposes to allow the business to continue operating

113:25 | as a banquet hall and sell

113:27 | alcohol for on premises consumption.

113:31 | Sites designated community mixed use where commercial is a

113:34 | primary use.

113:35 | The property is zoned community commercial.

113:37 | It also lies within the Broad Creek refresh overlay.

113:40 | In this district, you need a condition to have a banquet

113:42 | hall to have live entertainment and sell alcohol for on premise

113:45 | consumption after 5 p.m.

113:48 | here is the site.

113:50 | That's the applicant's outdoor dining.

113:51 | As part of the previous conditional use permit, there

113:54 | was a requirement to do landscaping, which has been

113:56 | done and pretty well maintained.

113:59 | Um, you will note that the window signage um is

114:02 | completely, completely covers up all the windows.

114:05 | I have sent an email to the applicant explaining that that

114:07 | signage would not be allowed if

114:09 | council adopts the new amendment.

114:11 | Even if they don't, we're going to put in there as a condition

114:14 | that the maximum signage shall be.

114:17 | What? What the code says, just in case there's a delay in

114:19 | getting that implemented.

114:20 | We want that fixed in a higher profile location.

114:26 | Here's the floor plan.

114:27 | They have two floor plans layouts for the app for people

114:30 | to choose from.

114:31 | Just to clarify, they don't sell alcohol as a regular part

114:34 | of their business.

114:35 | They're A, B, C license.

114:37 | The way they have it set up is that the applicant who's

114:40 | getting the banquet license is required to get their license.

114:43 | When I looked into the history, I can only find one request of

114:46 | their ABC license of an ABC license at this location, which

114:49 | was back in 2001.

114:50 | Sorry, 2021, 21.

114:53 | Um, so it's possible they've been having other events.

114:56 | The applicant did indicate to me that they don't do banquet

114:59 | style events very often, but he figured since he had this

115:02 | permission, he'd like to continue having this permission

115:05 | since he's been doing it well.

115:07 | Um, we haven't had any calls for service or violations or

115:09 | issues like that with this, with this establishment.

115:13 | So their request is staying exactly the same 9 to 11 seven

115:16 | days a week for the restaurant.

115:17 | The banquet hall hours would be 10 to 11 seven days a week.

115:20 | Disc jockey, live bands and karaoke.

115:22 | And the two layouts both have a seating capacity.

115:24 | Total capacity of 61 people.

115:33 | Yeah. The dance floor in the top section.

115:36 | Dance floor.

115:41 | Is in the bottom right part of the screen.

115:43 | The top layout to the bottom right part of that, just from

115:46 | the inside of the outdoor dining.

115:48 | Right by the door.

115:51 | It's a dashed line.

115:52 | Yeah.

115:56 | So when you have a DJ, we require a dance floor because

116:00 | inevitably what ends up happening is you have a DJ,

116:04 | people start dancing.

116:05 | And what used to happen before we record the dance floor was

116:08 | that the fire exits would be blocked by people moving tables

116:10 | or chairs or standing around

116:11 | the dance area and there was an emergency.

116:15 | It would be hard for first responders or help to get to

116:17 | those people.

116:18 | So

116:19 | it's been one of the

116:22 | policies of the city for a while now, at least since I've

116:24 | been here.

116:27 | I'm curious about that too.

116:29 | I think

116:31 | recently there's

116:33 | a trend where there's a DJ just kind of spinning, spinning

116:36 | music, and then no one's really dancing.

116:39 | They're just listening to the DJ spent records.

116:43 | But we still need to have the dance.

116:45 | Yeah, we.

116:46 | Heard.

116:47 | That from some restaurant operators as well.

116:50 | But one of the problems when you have a city with a history

116:54 | of like Norfolk, is that we have to write our conditions

116:57 | and our requirements for the worst possible operator.

117:01 | So even if there are some DJ's that are much more mellow, we

117:05 | still have to prepare.

117:06 | Like there's going to be a dance floor and make sure that

117:10 | there's a safe way for everyone

117:11 | to get in and out of the facility.

117:15 | We've actually worked with an applicant.

117:16 | They insisted that that's what they were doing, so they did

117:20 | like a ten by ten, I think even smaller, just so they could say

117:24 | if someone's dancing, that's

117:25 | where they're going to be dancing.

117:26 | Um, so we, we have workarounds, but we need them to show it

117:30 | because they need to show that they're thinking about it.

117:32 | Yeah. Thank you.

117:33 | Yeah.

117:34 | We used to.

117:35 | Require a different floor material for that section of

117:37 | the establishment.

117:38 | Um, we've modified our, our conditions over the last couple

117:42 | of staff reports to at least make that space clearly

117:44 | delineated, either with tape or some other type of way of

117:48 | distinguishing it as the area to be dancing.

117:51 | Again, mostly from the look, it has to look and meet building

117:54 | code and make sure those exits remain blocked.

117:56 | Uh.

117:57 | Open this

117:59 | dance floor tiles can get really expensive and bulky and,

118:04 | you know.

118:07 | Thank you.

118:11 | All. The first time coming around with their banquet was

118:15 | last year or two years ago.

118:16 | Um, there's pushback from council or

118:20 | specifically

118:22 | with them with them now getting

118:24 | like the actual, um, sale of alcohol.

118:29 | Is that going to create even more issues?

118:31 | I can't remember if it was the city or council that they end

118:34 | up approving it, but there was

118:36 | some hesitance to them getting right.

118:39 | There was some discussion about that that caused some delay in

118:42 | the application previously.

118:43 | I think the track record is going to be what stands out for

118:45 | this one.

118:46 | Um, there have been no calls for service, no issues that

118:48 | we're fully aware of.

118:50 | Um, just other than signage issue.

118:53 | We can

118:55 | believe that they have been

118:57 | abiding by the conditional use permit.

118:59 | Thank you.

119:05 | All right, this next one's a

119:06 | new one you have not seen before.

119:09 | Um,

119:10 | wine, social wine, social conditions permit.

119:12 | 112 Granby Street, uh, east side of Granby Street, between

119:16 | East Main and Plum streets.

119:18 | Um, proposes to allow a new restaurant to sell alcoholic

119:20 | beverages for on and off premise consumption.

119:23 | Um, it's the same ownership as

119:24 | vino culture that's on Granby Street.

119:26 | Just a few units to the north.

119:28 | Um, that's strictly retail, off premise.

119:30 | This is more of a restaurant with on and off premise.

119:33 | That location is staying there.

119:34 | It's not moving.

119:35 | They're just gonna have two locations, two restaurants.

119:38 | Proposed use is consistent for 2050 places this in the

119:41 | regional activity center.

119:44 | Zoning is downtown business center in this district.

119:47 | The CP is required for on

119:49 | premise alcohol sales after 5 p.m.

119:51 | and off premise sales.

119:53 | It's also in the downtown historic overlay.

119:56 | Uh, here's a picture of the site.

119:57 | The red outline is the unit.

119:59 | Um, it's formerly operated as

120:01 | bliss ice cream and dessert bar.

120:04 | They have since closed.

120:07 | Here's the floor plan.

120:08 | The red outline that is the tenant space.

120:10 | Um, kind of the upper left side.

120:12 | That is the atrium, if you will.

120:14 | Uh, stairs to the above units as well as the bathroom for

120:17 | restaurant guests.

120:20 | Hours of operation 8 a.m.

120:22 | to 10 p.m., seven days a week.

120:24 | They did request 1 a.m.

120:25 | on New Year's Eve.

120:26 | Um, same for alcohol sales on on and off premise.

120:29 | And they will not have live entertainment.

120:32 | Um, and again, with all off premise, single servings will

120:35 | be required to have a meal purchase with them for single

120:37 | serving alcohol sales.

120:39 | Um, they did receive support from the DNC and the DNC.

120:44 | Any questions?

120:46 | No entertainment.

120:50 | Anything else?

120:56 | You know culture.

120:57 | It's a retail wine shop.

120:59 | Correct. No issues there.

121:01 | So.

121:09 | Yeah.

121:21 | I was trying to remember if I had another one or not.

121:25 | Dutch Bros.

121:25 | Coffee.

121:26 | Conditional use.

121:27 | Permanent 1501 East Little Creek Road on the south side of

121:29 | East Little Creek Road between

121:30 | Caribou Avenue and Gifford Street.

121:33 | Um, it's currently vacant.

121:34 | This was the former Virginia, uh, first Bank or Virginia

121:38 | National Bank proposal style retail goods establishment to

121:40 | operate a drive thru facility.

121:42 | Large scale.

121:44 | This. The site is located in both districts.

121:47 | The quarter mixed use place type and the sustained suburban

121:50 | place type.

121:51 | Most of the site is in the quarter.

121:52 | Mixed use commercial is a primary use and the community

121:56 | mixed use district and a secondary use in the sustained

121:58 | suburban district, so it aligns with both.

122:00 | Even though most of the site again, is in that corridor.

122:02 | Mixed use

122:03 | property zoned CC Community Commercial.

122:05 | In this district, you need a conditional use permit to

122:07 | operate a drive through facility.

122:08 | Large scale

122:10 | first Virginia National Bank.

122:12 | This is the former site.

122:13 | It hasn't been operating for a while now,

122:16 | and they're proposing to put a new coffee shop drive through,

122:19 | similar to the other drive thrus we've seen recently.

122:22 | Um, they're proposing to be open from 5 a.m.

122:24 | until 11 p.m., seven days a week.

122:27 | The layout you can see on the right hand side, they're going

122:30 | to demolish the existing building and move and bring the

122:32 | new building kind of up towards East Little Creek, but there's

122:35 | not going to be any seating indoors.

122:38 | It's all going to be through the drive through.

122:40 | There's not going to be any order boxes, kind of like the

122:42 | chick fil A, where you have the people come out, take your

122:44 | order, and then someone runs it out from the store.

122:48 | Um, and the other modification in as this plan goes through

122:53 | site plan, um, you'll notice the thing on the top right

122:57 | there, closing one of the entrances on East Little Creek,

123:00 | and the other one is only going to be right in, right out.

123:02 | Turn on onto East Little Creek there.

123:05 | Um, as we were on our field trip, uh, making that left turn

123:09 | there is very difficult.

123:10 | So the right in, right out will

123:12 | make that a lot safer, hopefully.

123:14 | Um, and you'll notice the primary entrance probably will

123:17 | be on Cariboo.

123:20 | Are there any other questions about this application.

123:31 | All right.

123:31 | Next item Akeelah LLC.

123:33 | This is for conditional use

123:34 | permit for a short term rental renewal.

123:36 | 241 West Ocean View Avenue is on the south side of West Ocean

123:40 | View Avenue between Mason Creek Road and First View Street.

123:43 | It's currently a six bedroom duplex and proposal to allow

123:46 | the continued operation of a short term rental.

123:48 | For reference, this is east of the proposed overlay, so it

123:51 | won't be affected.

123:54 | Uh. Proposed use does not conflict with NFPA 2050 places.

123:57 | Community mixed use

124:00 | zoning is RC residential coastal in this district to

124:03 | keep use required for a vacation rental with more than

124:05 | three bedrooms.

124:07 | Here's a picture of the site.

124:09 | The property will continue to be self managed, and the same

124:11 | individual will be responsible for the emergency contact.

124:14 | We've had no violations or

124:15 | complaints in the past two years.

124:19 | He does own another short term rental in Norfolk.

124:21 | No issues with that one either.

124:24 | The neighbor analysis within 500ft, 44% of parcels are

124:27 | single family and 16% of

124:29 | residential units are single family.

124:31 | If approved, 13% of residential parcels and 4% of residential

124:35 | units within 500ft would be short term rentals.

124:38 | And this property is reflected

124:40 | in these numbers because it is existing.

124:43 | Any questions?

124:45 | Are you.

124:47 | Haven't decided on a recommendation, but I was

124:50 | wondering about renewal.

124:51 | At this time with a five year, five year.

124:53 | Term.

124:57 | Anything else?

124:59 | Okay.

125:01 | This is a new short term rental.

125:03 | The applicant is Joseph Llewellyn.

125:05 | This is a homestay.

125:07 | 3624 Day Street.

125:09 | East side of Day Street between Norval and Hampshire avenues.

125:12 | It's currently a four bedroom,

125:13 | single family home built in 1947.

125:16 | And the proposal for the operation of a homestay short

125:18 | term rental.

125:19 | As a reminder, homestay short term rentals.

125:21 | When the property owner uses

125:22 | the dwelling as a primary residence.

125:25 | The proposed use does not conflict with the 2050

125:29 | zoning. Is SF ten single family.

125:31 | Ten in this district, the CFP is required to operate a

125:34 | homestay when you have more than three bedrooms.

125:38 | Here's a picture of the site as a homestay.

125:39 | The property will be self managed by the applicant.

125:42 | They do live there.

125:43 | There is no history of any violations or complaints.

125:46 | And the only other improvement we're going to make is

125:48 | recommending additional foundation screening.

125:50 | He did have some work done.

125:51 | He did widen his driveway slightly and put in a walkway.

125:54 | I'm going to confirm, but I

125:55 | assume he will replant grass on that.

125:57 | On that left side.

126:00 | Neighbor analysis within 500ft, 7,676% of parcels are single

126:04 | family and 73% of residential units are single family.

126:07 | If approved, 1% of residential parcels and 1% of residential

126:11 | units within 500ft would be short term rentals.

126:15 | Any questions?

126:17 | Yes. Um.

126:19 | And vacation.

126:21 | Rentals?

126:22 | No. You only only authorized for one.

126:25 | So you have to be honest, if you want to do a vacation, you

126:27 | have to reapply.

126:30 | Oh. I'm sorry.

126:30 | Yes yes, yes.

126:40 | These two we already talked about.

126:43 | The two.

126:43 | Items.

126:43 | That were

126:45 | presented. So one.

126:46 | Would be.

126:47 | To Initiate

126:50 | adoption of the.

126:51 | Comprehensive.

126:53 | Plan Amendment for the Tri-City Area Plan that started working

126:56 | on, um, again, we'll have more detailed.

126:59 | Plan for you to review before we bring it forward for a vote.

127:01 | Um, if we initiate it now, we can continue the rest of the

127:04 | work and obtain any additional comments, incorporate any

127:06 | comments that you have so that we can have a final document

127:09 | prior to any staff report being written.

127:11 | And the last one is the um text amendment for the faith based

127:16 | faith, but faith based housing development in accordance with

127:19 | the state legislation.

127:21 | So it should be faith in housing.

127:23 | Um, because the way the legislation is written, it's

127:26 | not just for faith based

127:27 | organizations, it's for any nonprofit.

127:30 | Thank you.

127:33 | Um, any suggestions for

127:36 | the consent agenda?

127:50 | I was thinking seven and eight.

127:52 | Yeah.

128:04 | It includes entertainment.

128:05 | I would probably.

128:08 | It's up to the commission, but I'm having.

128:11 | It did.

128:12 | But it is technically different owners.

128:14 | So it's not a renewal

128:16 | only open.

128:18 | It's very sporadic opening about.

128:21 | Yeah. They didn't operate under

128:22 | their cup let's put it that way.

128:24 | Okay. So maybe.

128:47 | Oh yeah, the A or B.

128:56 | Which one is that?

128:57 | The architectural review board.

128:59 | Oh, yeah.

129:00 | Yeah.

129:05 | I make a suggestion of number five.

129:07 | Look at that one again.

129:12 | Oh.

129:16 | That's not closing at ten.

129:17 | Yeah. Unless they're already

129:19 | established a couple of doors down.

129:24 | I'm fine with that.

129:30 | Five. Seven.

129:31 | Eight.

129:37 | Anything else for discussion?

129:45 | I do want to lead with

129:49 | bad news.

129:50 | Hala has officially set her retirement date of effective

129:57 | November 1st.

129:59 | So.

130:06 | Everybody is sad.

130:07 | I'm like.

130:07 | This is a great.

130:08 | Thing.

130:10 | I have told Paula she does not need to retire, but she has

130:13 | told me I am retiring.

130:14 | So that's fine.

130:16 | So, um, we're just so thankful for

130:20 | all the work that Paul has done.

130:22 | She's had a very diverse career in the planning department.

130:24 | And when she was in budget and whatever it was called for data

130:28 | analytics for a short stint

130:31 | before she came back to planning.

130:32 | But she's had a very diverse

130:34 | career with us here at the city.

130:35 | And, um, her knowledge and her even keel approach to things

130:41 | will be definitely missed.

130:43 | She has been definitely the other half of my brain when I

130:46 | forget things too.

130:47 | So, um, I'm very concerned for my well-being.

130:54 | So, um.

130:55 | But we wish Paula well.

130:57 | Um, the running joke now at this time is that I've retired

130:59 | both Shea's because her husband, Mark, worked for me in

131:02 | Virginia Beach, and he retired while I was, I was the director

131:05 | in Virginia Beach.

131:06 | Um, not to my doing at least that's how they told.

131:09 | That's what they told me.

131:10 | So that's, that's the story that I'm running with it.

131:13 | So, um, but yes, so, um.

131:16 | Thank you.

131:17 | Thank you.

131:18 | Still invite you to the end of the year.

131:21 | I will, I will, I will.

131:22 | Come about it.

131:23 | Okay.

131:23 | I will.

131:24 | Come.

131:26 | Unless I don't know.

131:30 | Um, Council action.

131:31 | There's been a couple of items um

131:35 | that went to the end of August.

131:39 | For City Council's.

131:40 | Approval. Um, most of that was the development standards, um,

131:45 | that, uh, Jeremy went through for both, um, the stuff that we

131:50 | were addressing for the housing commission as well as, um, a

131:54 | number of other items.

131:55 | I don't know why this went to June, I don't know.

131:58 | Sorry. I'm trying to pull up the agenda for August.

132:02 | Um,

132:04 | here we go.

132:06 | Um,

132:08 | we also had a number of short term rentals as well, as well

132:11 | as a generic theater, um, go through on the consent agenda.

132:17 | Um.

132:20 | And.

132:23 | Uh, the couple rezonings, uh, one for, um, the parking lot as

132:28 | well as the,

132:30 | um, uh, cat kennel that we had was called out for not being

132:35 | able to not smile when I said

132:37 | malkin's at the City Council presentation.

132:41 | That was a little tough to get through.

132:42 | So. But other than that, um,

132:45 | Council has approved those.

132:47 | There's one outstanding which I want to bring up.

132:49 | You've received a number of

132:50 | emails about 1615 Colonial Avenue.

132:52 | You recommended approval um to the City Council for the

132:56 | applicant has provided additional information.

132:59 | If you remember, this is the one that had the shared private

133:02 | driveway, um, that provided additional information that was

133:05 | reviewed by the city attorney's office that allows them to use

133:07 | that driveway.

133:09 | Um, so the condition that initially we recommended and

133:11 | you recommended to council, um, stating that they can't use it

133:14 | without permission, they have permission.

133:16 | So, um, I'll be recommending to council to remove it.

133:19 | The applicant, um, also after your public hearing, after they

133:22 | have reviewed the conditions also um doesn't want to do, uh,

133:26 | repair the driveway that's in poor shape, um as well as has

133:30 | concerns about us requiring

133:32 | them to not block the shared driveway.

133:35 | Um, so there are a number.

133:36 | Those are two conditions they want us to remove from the

133:39 | conditional use permit.

133:40 | I'll be presenting that to council.

133:42 | Um and of course those two we don't believe that those should

133:45 | be removed.

133:46 | Um the driveway is in very poor shape.

133:50 | Um it should be repaired.

133:51 | Um and then of course you shouldn't block something

133:54 | that's driveway access.

133:55 | So um that's shared.

133:57 | So um you've received a number of emails.

134:00 | We've received ten times as many emails, um, just to let

134:04 | you know.

134:05 | So we're not ignoring the applicant is, and the owner is

134:09 | assuming that we're ignoring their emails.

134:11 | Unfortunately, there's the applicant and the two different

134:14 | owners are sending three different sets of emails with

134:16 | three different requests to staff council and the clerk's

134:20 | office, as well as the city attorney's office.

134:23 | We're having trouble pinning down what we're trying to

134:24 | answer, and so I'm just going to answer it when I present it

134:27 | to City Council.

134:28 | Um, so I just want to make sure you're aware we're not ignoring

134:31 | the applicant or the owners of that property.

134:33 | So we're working through that.

134:35 | We're just trying to make sure that we're covering everything

134:38 | that they have listed to.

134:41 | Our curiosity on that point.

134:43 | Is there a potential that thinking of before the meeting?

134:47 | Is there any potential that we're being emailed as

134:50 | commissioners to our city email, and we have no access to

134:54 | that email, so we have no idea

134:55 | that we've received emails there.

134:57 | City emails aren't listed are posted.

134:59 | There's no contact.

135:00 | They send it towards to staff.

135:03 | Um.

135:05 | Did you.

135:05 | Know.

135:08 | Communications from them on the platforms.

135:12 | Yeah.

135:13 | So we did receive an email that was directed to staff.

135:17 | Um, and then um

135:21 | in there at some point in time, it said we would like you to

135:23 | share with us with the planning Commission, which was after you

135:25 | had voted and after a month had gone by already.

135:30 | And so there's, uh, there's, we have this information, so it's

135:34 | sending it to you is not pertinent because you already

135:36 | have a recommendation.

135:38 | So giving it to counsel is the correct move.

135:39 | And so, but then that information was then also then

135:42 | sent to council members as well.

135:43 | So, um, there's a lot that we're trying to make sure we're

135:46 | not leaving hanging, but

135:48 | there's, it's just kind of floating.

135:50 | So I just wanted to share with the commission that that's,

135:52 | that's one that we're working through right now.

135:54 | So also, um, next week I'll be presenting to the council

135:59 | unless I get bumped.

136:00 | Um, the Willoughby um, short term rental limitation overlay,

136:06 | um, for discussion.

136:07 | So that's next.

136:08 | Week. That's next Tuesday.

136:09 | Yes. I'll be presenting that.

136:10 | So.

136:15 | That

136:17 | commission

136:20 | on Monday.

136:21 | This Monday.

136:24 | Is housing commission this Monday.

136:25 | No not not.

136:26 | Meeting that meeting.

136:28 | 000. Um it's just an internal departmental meeting where

136:31 | there's we don't need those turn into spitballing sessions.

136:34 | I don't know if we'll be useful.

136:36 | Um, but if you'd like to just let me know.

136:38 | I mean, we're just trying to figure out who's on first on a

136:40 | lot of this stuff, so.

136:45 | That's all I have.

136:46 | Thank you.

136:49 | Commissioners comments.

136:50 | Any comments from the commissioners?

136:53 | Sorry, I have.

136:54 | One more thing.

136:55 | I'm sorry.

136:56 | Um, we had discussed previously about um.

137:01 | The retreat which was supposed to be for October.

137:03 | We've unfortunately due to timing, we've, we've have all

137:06 | these presentations and everything we've already

137:08 | presented to you, which we

137:09 | would have been prime retreat material.

137:11 | However, because of the deadlines that we have, we had

137:14 | to push them out.

137:15 | Um, so unless the commission has anything that you'd like to

137:18 | have us brief you on, um, we don't believe that there's a

137:21 | need for a retreat this year just due to all the extra work

137:24 | that we've kind of front loaded in this month and in August.

137:27 | But, um, that's not my call.

137:29 | That's up to the commission.

137:30 | If you'd like to have us research anything and provide

137:32 | it to you for the retreat, which is the same meeting day,

137:36 | just we meet earlier in October.

137:40 | That's a very good point.

137:42 | And I know we talked about it last month about if anyone had

137:44 | any items that they wanted, and

137:46 | I don't think anyone submitted anything.

137:47 | I know I didn't.

137:49 | Did Scott.

137:49 | I thought Scott had broached

137:51 | issue that he was interested in.

137:53 | Does anybody else remember that?

137:56 | I think they're not here now, so we can vote without them.

138:01 | I vaguely remember him saying something, but I don't know if

138:03 | it was.

138:04 | I don't remember what it was

138:05 | and if we've talked about it already.

138:08 | Yeah.

138:10 | Do we have to make that decision today?

138:13 | It would be helpful because it would be October, wouldn't it?

138:17 | It would be helpful.

138:18 | So that we can prepare.

138:19 | Um, but if you let us know about the public hearing date,

138:22 | we can try to slam something together for you.

138:25 | Why don't I try to give you an answer by early next week at

138:30 | the latest.

138:31 | That way I have an opportunity to.

138:34 | Thank you.

138:37 | Okay.

138:38 | Sorry. That's it.

138:39 | I apologize.

138:40 | You don't have to apologize.

138:42 | Any comments from the commissioners?

138:45 | I did look up to Rican, by the way, and I thought I saw some

138:49 | planters there.

138:51 | So there's planters, but I'll show you.

138:53 | I just wanted to let you know.

138:54 | Okay.

138:56 | I did the same thing.

138:57 | I went to Street View and the most recent one has linear

139:01 | narrow boxes on either side of the doorway going out.

139:06 | I don't know if they're

139:07 | planting it today in Street View.

139:09 | There were.

139:09 | Yeah.

139:11 | Thank you.

139:13 | Any other comments?

139:16 | All right.

139:17 | Well, then I think we're adjourned.

139:18 | Thank you.