2026-10-20 - Finance

00:04Good afternoon everyone. Welcome to the

00:07Tuesday, October 20th meeting of the

00:08Finance Committee. We'll go ahead go

00:10ahead and start off with introductions

00:12starting with Ms. Norris.

00:13>> Britney Norris for the administration.

00:15>> Colleen Hamsley, Council Research.

00:17>> Maria Sifakis, Office of General

00:18Counsel.

00:19>> Heather Reber, Council Auditor's Office.

00:21>> Phil Peterson, Council Auditor.

00:23>> Good morning. Rory Diamond, District 13,

00:24The Beaches.

00:25>> Good afternoon. Chris Miller, at large

00:27Group 5.

00:28>> Will Laney, District 3.

00:30>> Mike Gay, District 2.

00:32>> Randy White, District 12.

00:33>> Good afternoon. Michael Boylan, District

00:356.

00:36>> Good afternoon. Nick Howland, at large

00:37Group 3.

00:39>> All right. Welcome everybody. So, the

00:41flow of the meeting today we'll take up

00:42public comment first. Uh we then have I

00:45don't see him here yet. I believe Mr.

00:46Freeman will be down here for our

00:48quarterly single source presentation.

00:51Uh we're then going to go through the

00:52agenda as is. It is not a uh too long of

00:55an agenda. I know there's some uh first

00:56responder bills on here, but we'll go to

00:58them uh pretty quick soon as we start.

01:01And then you may notice on page 18

01:03there's an additional Finance Committee

01:05discussion item and that's a discussion

01:06on the issuance of a subpoena for NAT

01:08Forward for testimony at a special

01:10meeting of the Finance Committee on

01:12October 23rd, 2026, which is this

01:14Friday. We'll take up that discussion

01:17and any action on that item at the end

01:20of this meeting. So, with that, do we

01:22have any public comment?

01:26All right. We have one, Carnell Oliver.

01:28You have 2 minutes once you get to the

01:29podium.

01:32>> Oh, yeah. I want to speak to the bill

01:33involving NAT Ford. Um the argument for

01:37me is very simple. There are laws on the

01:39books and there's a level of

01:41accountability that is associated with

01:43it.

01:44Dealing with the 81 section of the Civil

01:46Rights Act of 1866 for the number

01:49employees that were laid off.

01:52You don't even know which one of them

01:53how our heritage black Americans.

01:56Now, I've explained that a number of

01:58times. I've received a response from

02:00public records for for JTA about that.

02:03And they're going to be responding to me

02:06by their time frame. But the thing about

02:09it is is that a lot of you white folks,

02:10you already knew what was going on at

02:13JTA.

02:14Because I blew the whistle before many

02:16times by COVID-19 funding, even on you

02:19in your jurisdiction of the city

02:20council.

02:22Many of y'all are now trying to cover

02:25your own butts for the damage that was

02:27already made. As much as you want to get

02:30in front of this camera and you want to

02:31act like you're innocent, you're really

02:33not.

02:35You hear everything.

02:37But the only thing that you're doing

02:38right now, you're putting on a show.

02:40Yes, not for going to be down here, but

02:43who is who is really going who really

02:45should take responsibility? You should

02:47be taking responsibility, specifically

02:49every last one of y'all in these seats

02:51because you never really took your job

02:53seriously.

02:55Just like I'm beating up on the mayor's

02:56administration with the things that I

02:58know, I'm doing the same thing with

03:00y'all.

03:01Because I take what you do more serious

03:04than you.

03:06Y'all have failed the people.

03:08You have failed me.

03:10Because you're a joke.

03:13Just ran along with her administration.

03:16And right now, the large seat five

03:19trying to look good for when the

03:21election time come around, he's all in

03:22front of the camera. Look all wide-eyed,

03:25look all good for the public. But you're

03:27a joke.

03:29I'm I'm telling that to your face.

03:32>> All right, thank you, Mr. Oliver. Uh is

03:34Mr. Freeman down here?

03:38Okay, well, we'll uh push off Mr.

03:40Freeman to a future presentation. With

03:42that, we'll go ahead and uh start at the

03:43top of the agenda.

03:45Item number one, 2024-966

03:47is deferred, as is item two, 2025-361.

03:51Three and four also deferred. Uh the

03:53first at Councilmember Diamond's

03:54request, the second at Councilmember

03:56White's. That's 2026-0227-0320.

04:00Item five 2026-377 deferred at the

04:03request of Councilmember Johnson. Item

04:04six deferred 2026-0541.

04:08Item seven 2026-0672.

04:10Can I get a motion on the withdrawal?

04:12Got a motion and a second on the

04:13withdrawal. I have no one in the queue.

04:15Open the ballot. Record your vote.

04:21>> 7 A's, 0 Nays.

04:23>> By we have passed item seven 2026-0672.

04:27Uh item eight 2026-0677.

04:30This is deferred. This was deferred

04:31until after the amendment three vote. Uh

04:34do want to point out uh we are going to

04:35be talking about a uh different bill

04:38here in a few. I mentioned on budget

04:39night that we had $9 million of items

04:42pending for affordable housing. This one

04:44was six of it. The one we'll be

04:45discussing is uh 2.8 million, but for

04:48now that item is deferred. Item nine

04:512026-0687.

04:54Got a motion and a second on the

04:55amendment. Uh Miss Reber, could you

04:57explain that one to this court?

04:59>> Through the chair to the committee, the

05:00amendment will correct a whereas clause

05:02regarding the city's original intent um

05:05and correct uh some formatting to

05:07reflect a strike through and underline

05:09of a revised code section within the

05:10bill and correct other scrivener's

05:12errors.

05:13>> Thank you. I have no one in the queue.

05:14All those in favor of the amendment say

05:15aye. Uh any opposed say nay. Amendment

05:17passes.

05:20Got a motion and a second on the bill as

05:22amended. I have no one in the queue on

05:24this. I will note that this is simply

05:25codifying what our actual uh procedures

05:28have been

05:30uh relative to the corrections

05:32employment defined contribution plan.

05:33Open the ballot. Record your vote.

05:40>> 7 A's, 0 Nays.

05:42>> By our actions we have passed 2026-0687.

05:45Item 10 2026-0749.

05:49Got a motion

05:50>> second on the neighborhoods amendment,

05:51Ms. Reber.

05:53>> Through the chair to the committee, the

05:55NCS PHS amendment will allow the 12

05:58million in matching funds that was

06:01maybe satisfied by any verified direct

06:04cost not previously reported that meet

06:06the scope of the amended agreement.

06:09This 12 million was originally done

06:12through amendment six and was for a

06:14particular phase of improvements, but

06:16now we're just allowing that 12 million

06:17to be applied to any other phase that

06:20have that has not been reported

06:22previously.

06:24>> Thank you, Ms. Reber. I have no one in

06:25the queue. All those in favor of the

06:26amendment say aye.

06:28Aye. Any opposed say nay. Amendment

06:30passes.

06:31>> Move the bill as amended, sir.

06:32>> I got a motion, second on the bill as

06:35amended.

06:37I have no one in the queue. Just want to

06:38point out that this is not incremental,

06:40but rather the timing in the overall

06:42five-year grant that this was, so I'll

06:45be supporting. Open the ballot, record

06:47your vote.

06:52>> Seven ayes, zero nays.

06:53>> By our actions, we approved 2026-0749.

06:56Item 11, 2026-0751.

06:59>> Move the bill, sir.

07:01>> Got a motion, second on the bill. I have

07:03no one in the queue. Open the ballot,

07:04record your vote.

07:09>> Seven ayes, zero nays.

07:11>> By our actions, we have passed

07:122026-0751.

07:15Item 12, 2026-0752.

07:17>> Move the rules amendment, sir.

07:20>> I got a motion, second on the rules

07:21amendment, Ms. Reber.

07:24>> Through the chair to the committee, the

07:25rules amendment will correct extension

07:27language in the bill to allow for the

07:2812-month extension, and then place

07:31revised agreement on file to revise the

07:33general

07:34partner annual distribution limit from

07:36500,000 to 280,000,

07:39which is 10% of the general partner's

07:40loan and consistent with similar

07:42contracts and correct scrivener's

07:44errors.

07:46>> Thank you. Have no one in the queue. All

07:47those in favor of the rules amendment

07:48say I. I. Any opposed say nay.

07:51The amendment passes. Can I get a motion

07:53on the

07:55Got a motion and a second on the bill as

07:57amended. Council member Diamond.

07:58>> Uh thank you, Mr. Chair. Um I I support

08:01this. Um

08:03you know, fine with all this. Vestcor

08:05has a great uh track record with the

08:07city and they just paid back like a $20

08:08million loan. So, I you know, as a

08:10fiscal conservative, I feel comfortable

08:12with this. But, you made a motion

08:13uh an amendment um

08:15in a prior committee that I'd like to

08:17just essentially reiterate your same

08:19amendment, which is to take it out of

08:21the money that we already set aside for

08:23housing. I don't know why we would go to

08:25another pot if we already did that

08:27during the budget process. In fact,

08:29my recollection is that we were thinking

08:31about projects just like this when we

08:33put money

08:34aside for housing. So, that's my motion

08:37um if that makes sense enough, Mary.

08:40Uh if I can get a second.

08:42>> So, we have a motion and second of the

08:44Lanen amendment that failed in rules

08:47yesterday.

08:49>> Yep.

08:51>> And while they're while they're putting

08:52that together, uh

08:53to your point, Council member Diamond,

08:54we approved $4.9 million, uh which

08:57again, budget night wasn't whether we

08:59would spend zero or five million. It

09:00basically changed it from 39 to 44

09:02million of affordable housing

09:04initiatives we had in front of us. And

09:06of that 4.9, which I wasn't going to

09:08make the uh the motion again today cuz I

09:10think I see where it's heading, but I'll

09:11certainly support if you bring it up. Of

09:13that 4.9, it was nearly all unallocated.

09:16So, my motion was to use 1.4 million

09:19from the capital stack and 1.4 million

09:21from the I believe it's the utility

09:22tap-in fund there. So, uh Ms. Reber or

09:25Mr. Peterson, uh do y'all want to

09:28articulate what the exact amendment

09:29would be?

09:36>> Um through the chair to the committee,

09:37the amendment that was offered in rules

09:39and then it's now being offered here in

09:41finance was to use um 1.4 million from

09:47the capital stack

09:49of the of the 4.9 million and then 1.4

09:51million from the um utility tap in.

09:57>> Thank you and that is Council Member

09:58Diamond's amendment and there's a second

10:00from Council Member Gay. Uh Mr. Boylan

10:03on the amendment.

10:05You're recognized.

10:06>> Mr. Chair, uh as you

10:08as a member of the rules committee we

10:09had we spent some time in this

10:10conversation and you I think members of

10:13the committee you were the one to

10:14support it frankly.

10:15And I think the rationale was a couple

10:17on uh number one, the focus that one

10:20point or the 4.9 was really on home

10:22ownership allowing families the

10:24opportunity to uh

10:26you know, own a home.

10:28And and the tap fees obviously are the

10:30big part of that conversation. Uh I

10:33think this is stepping back away from

10:34that commitment. Although I didn't uh on

10:36budget night, I supported it now because

10:39as a majority of the council we approved

10:40it to be used for that intent. This I

10:44I'm not dismissing I this project is

10:45great but this is not home ownership.

10:47This is uh as as I understand it. So um

10:52I I just don't think it I think it's a

10:54switch and bait that I'm not comfortable

10:55with uh in in this moving forward. Thank

10:58you.

10:59>> Council Member Diamond and then I'll

11:00speak on the amendment.

11:02>> Yeah, uh I understand what you're saying

11:03Councilman Boylan. The missing context

11:05to me is a $100 million bond request

11:07from uh from the Jacksonville Housing

11:09Authority for home ownership and down

11:11payment assistance and all these other

11:12things. So with that with that context

11:14in mind I was like we are going so far

11:17out on a limb on some of these things

11:19when if frankly this stuff isn't paid

11:21for yet. And so we have $100 million

11:23unpaid for stuff. So that's why I'd like

11:25to use the money we already put aside

11:26for something that's happening now. If

11:28it doesn't happen like you know, so be

11:29it but let council decide on uh as a

11:31whole on Tuesday.

11:33>> Council President, I'm going to go to

11:34Ms. Topoleski first cuz she just popped

11:36in and may have some information for us.

11:39>> Thank you to the chair and through the

11:40chair to the committee. So,

11:42I know it was moved as an amendment, but

11:44to the extent it's approved, I would

11:46recommend it be filed as a finance

11:47substitute to the bill because there are

11:50a number of changes that would need to

11:51be made to incorporate what is now what

11:53would be the addition of an

11:54appropriation. I would also recommend,

11:57and it's ultimately the committee's

11:58decision, but I would also recommend

12:00that you consider re-referring the bill

12:02based on that because it did not it

12:04contemplate an appropriation as

12:06originally filed and therefore the

12:08public would not have been aware that it

12:10contemplated that appropriation from

12:12those dollars. Again, that is a decision

12:15of the committee and how it moves

12:16forward with the legislation, but it's a

12:18recommendation of our office that it be

12:20a substitute and re-refer.

12:21>> I'm going to recognize Councilman

12:22Diamond, it's his amendment, and then

12:24come back to the Council President.

12:25>> Yeah, I don't want to hold this train

12:26up, right? So, we're not doing that

12:28today, at least not for me. So, but I

12:30disagree that it has to be a substitute.

12:32I mean, it's really the council can can

12:34decide on Tuesday if they feel like

12:36there's been a procedural error with the

12:38amendment and then could just reject it.

12:41>> The request for the substitute was

12:42simply to make it easier for myself and

12:44the council auditor's office to produce

12:46the document. It's not that it's so

12:48substantive.

12:50The re-refer is a separate issue.

12:51>> Yeah, that's my issue. It's the

12:53re-refer, Mr. Chair, to Mary. I don't

12:55want to do a re-referral. I I don't

12:56think uh to me like the the the public's

12:58on notice that we're doing this. Um the

13:00public was on notice last time when we

13:01put this money aside. Like to me that

13:04like we've hit our notice requirements.

13:06One way or the other, I want to make

13:06sure this train keeps going.

13:08>> Understood.

13:08>> Um and so, personally, like the only

13:10people who would you'd, you know, make

13:11an objection if you think there's a

13:12procedural problem like a member of the

13:14the council, but I don't think there is

13:15personally. That's just me.

13:16>> Understood. It was It was a

13:17recommendation from me as the attorney

13:19to the committee, but I would still

13:21request that if it does move forward

13:23from this committee that it be moved

13:24forward as a substitute, whether it's

13:25re-referred or not, um as a

13:27recommendation or report from the

13:28committee, it would just be as a

13:29substitute.

13:30>> Okay, I'll withdraw my amendment if I

13:32can get the second or withdraw. So, then

13:34I'll just move it as a substitute if I

13:36can get a second.

13:40So, we have a motion and second on the

13:41substitute. Now, that would still

13:43contain the same language.

13:45>> Yes, thank you.

13:47>> Council President.

13:48>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to go on

13:50record supporting the substitute because

13:53this

13:54new source of funds

13:56would still produce 180 affordable

13:58housing units.

13:59It would This project combines public

14:02and private investment and it's

14:04consistent with how we've handled

14:05affordable housing in the past.

14:07I think it does a lot of good for a lot

14:08of people as long as it doesn't slow it

14:10down as a re-referral and it won't

14:12because we're now doing it as a

14:13substitute. I'm I'm happy and

14:14supportive. Thanks.

14:16>> I'm going to recognize Dr. Johnson's

14:18here and then recognize him to speak.

14:20>> Thank you for that, Mr. Chair. I just

14:21had a question procedurally.

14:23If the bill to the chair, and I think

14:25this is Mr. Pappas, if this is I

14:28understand wanting to keep the train

14:30moving as the Council President and as

14:31Councilman Diamond said, but I also do

14:34want people to be able to weigh in on

14:35this. If the re-referral, what is your

14:38recommendation? What is your rationale

14:40for the re-referral one and then two, it

14:42could still be re-referred with a

14:44majority vote if that comes up in the

14:46full body, correct?

14:47>> Through the chair to Council member

14:49Johnson. So, my recommendation for the

14:51re-referral is because when this bill

14:53was originally advertised for

14:54consideration by the committees in the

14:56council, it was with respect to

14:58authorizing a a loan

15:00in the amount of $2.8 million that would

15:01be funded at a future piece of

15:03legislation. So, the public was not on

15:05notice that any monies were being

15:07appropriated through this legislation

15:10for the purposes of a loan that would

15:11come due in a couple of fiscal years.

15:14So, when we see a more substantive

15:16change like that, our office will often

15:18recommend that just for the purposes of

15:20transparency to the public because when

15:21they saw the initial bill as advertised,

15:24they may not have felt the need to

15:25approach the council to address it.

15:28But may feel the need or feel

15:30differently about that in the with the

15:32expectation now that there would be an

15:33appropriation included. And so when

15:35those kinds of changes are made, we will

15:37often recommend that it be re-referred.

15:39If it's re-referred and it's that's

15:41approved as a re-referral by council

15:42next Tuesday, it would come straight

15:44back to committee. It would be

15:45advertised and come straight back to

15:47committee and then go to council on the

15:49So it add two weeks to the process.

15:51>> Last question on this specific space. I

15:53think I know where I am on this, but the

15:55last question is based on your legal

15:57knowledge. Obviously, we can't predict

16:00what would happen or not, but are there

16:02actions that someone could take saying

16:04that we did not follow

16:06proper procedure with advertising or

16:08noticing the public or what have you?

16:11>> You know, I think if a member of the

16:12public felt strongly that they would

16:15have addressed the legislation and there

16:16could have been a due process or some

16:18other sort of argument. I think it's

16:20limited, but to the extent that there

16:22has there is an interest of a member of

16:24the public, they could find a cause of

16:26action with respect to their not having

16:29had the opportunity to address the

16:30legislation as formally finally acted

16:32upon by council.

16:34Um again, it could be limited, but we

16:37you know, it is it is a it's a part of

16:39the risk analysis when we give you all

16:41council and help so that you're making a

16:43fully informed decision.

16:49>> Councilor Gay and then Ms. Norris and

16:51then back to Mr. Boylan.

16:54>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um

16:56to

16:57weigh in on what Councilor Boylan was

16:59saying, this uh

17:02is coming out of the 4.9 million that we

17:05set aside for affordable housing. Um

17:09to the chair, so there's two buckets,

17:121.4 and then 1.4. Is both of those

17:16buckets coming out of the 4.9?

17:20>> Yes, that's the intent of this

17:21amendment. I'm speaking for the

17:24introducer of the amendment, but it's

17:25the same one I introduced yesterday. So.

17:27>> Right. So, with that, if I remember

17:30correctly, when we did the 4.9, not all

17:34of that was for down payment assistance.

17:37That was only

17:40>> If I could, so 2 million of the

17:42remainder is for down payment

17:44assistance, which is untouched by this

17:46amendment.

17:47>> Okay, so that that's still in there for

17:51home home purchases. So, okay, I'm I'm

17:55I'm comfortable with it now. Thank you.

17:57>> Back to Councilman Boylan, then Ms.

17:59Norris, and then we'll vote.

18:01>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to

18:03raise a concern. I'm not sure where the

18:05body stands as a whole in supporting

18:07this amendment. I don't want to

18:09compromise this bill by having an

18:10amendment that may have some controversy

18:12in the process. So, I would be careful

18:14in in that regard.

18:16>> And if I could, like I said yesterday

18:18rules, that I'm a no on the overall bill

18:21if we cannot use money we budgeted for

18:23affordable housing for affordable

18:25housing, which is what this amendment

18:27is.

18:28Ms. Norris.

18:30>> Thank you, Chair. I do want to offer up

18:32that Travis Jeffries with the

18:33neighborhoods department is here and can

18:35answer any questions anyone might have.

18:37But also that 4.9 might not be

18:39encumbered at this moment, but its use

18:41is planned. The utility tap-in

18:44the down payment assistance will be

18:46utilized as we have folks step up to the

18:48plate and be available for those funds.

18:50So, there's a rationale to having those

18:52available and also being in the trust

18:54fund ideally to make this at some point

18:55a self-sustaining fund. So, this does

18:57kind of cut us there.

19:00>> Thank you, Ms. Norris. And on the

19:01amendment, again, what this amendment is

19:03doing, it is using money we budgeted for

19:06affordable housing on affordable

19:08housing. We can either use cash for this

19:11development loan. Invest Corp does great

19:12work. This isn't anything for or against

19:14Investcorp. It's just the fact that if

19:16we don't approve this amendment, we are

19:18adding it on to our approaching a

19:20hundred million dollars now in

19:22unbudgeted grants and loans we have to

19:25find a way to budget for uh the next

19:27couple of years. And again, whether

19:29Amendment 3 passes or fails, this

19:30hundred million dollars remains

19:32unbudgeted due to commitments this

19:34council has already made. So, that's why

19:37I thought the wise financial

19:38responsibility is let's use money we

19:40budgeted for affordable housing for an

19:42affordable housing initiative. Uh so,

19:44with that, uh Dr. Johnson.

19:48>> Quick. Uh Mr. Jeffries, can you come up?

19:50Just quickly through the chair to Mr.

19:51Jeffries. Um where if this is and I'm

19:54just curious about while I certainly

19:56understand the uh chair's um

19:59admonition uh about where the funds come

20:01from, mine is more about if the

20:03re-referral comes up just so people get

20:04a chance to hear it. If it elongates the

20:06process, where does that leave what you

20:08were trying What is trying to be

20:09accomplished here?

20:11>> Uh through the chair to Councilman

20:12Johnson.

20:14Excuse me.

20:15Um currently the programs we're working

20:17on developing the process for those two

20:20programs for the capital stack program

20:22and for our uh TAP program. You know,

20:25we've had them in previously in the

20:26past. We we're probably going to mirror

20:28what they looked like before, but we're

20:30on the

20:31precipice of getting those launched now

20:34right after beginning of October 1st. We

20:36just received the funding, so.

20:38>> So, if this doesn't go the way it is put

20:41here, it would then push that program

20:43start out much further.

20:45>> Absolutely.

20:46>> Okay. Thank uh how I guess just until

20:48the legislation is approved?

20:50>> Or until we receive if they pull the

20:52money back, it'll be until we receive

20:53additional funding.

20:54>> Got it. Thank you. Thanks, Mr. Chair.

20:57>> Thank you. All right, with that, all

20:58those in favor of the Diamond Amendment,

21:00let's do this by hands. Raise your hand

21:01for I.

21:04All opposed.

21:06I have two nays. Councilmember Diamond

21:08or I'm sorry, Councilmember Johnson and

21:10Boylan were the nays. Uh so, the

21:12amendment passes. Can I get a motion?

21:15We got a motion and second, and I

21:17believe this will be Miss Theofanis, put

21:19some of the posture on what the correct

21:20motion should be.

21:22>> So, it would be assuming that their

21:24committee doesn't have a desire to

21:25re-refer, it would be move the bill as

21:27substituted, but I would also ask if we

21:29could roll the rules amendment into that

21:30substitute, so it's just one document

21:32one substitute out of finance.

21:34>> That is fine.

21:35>> Okay, thank you. So, it just

21:38>> I got motion second on the bill as

21:40substituted, and just so I'm clear where

21:42I stand, I will vote yes on this now. If

21:45the amendment if the finance amendment

21:47fails next Tuesday, I'll go back to

21:48being a no on this bill like I was in

21:50rules yesterday. Open the ballot, record

21:52your vote.

21:57>> Seven yeas, one nay.

21:59>> By our actions, we have passed 2026-0752

22:02as amended.

22:04Or as substituted.

22:05>> Oh, I'm sorry.

22:07All right, let's see.

22:11We're up to item 13, 2026-0753.

22:15I got motion second on the amendment. Uh

22:17Miss Reber.

22:19>> Through the chair to the committee, the

22:20amendment will correct the appropriation

22:22of fiscal year attach a revised BT to

22:25correct an account name and attach the

22:27SHIP disbursement schedule as a new

22:29exhibit.

22:30>> Thank you. I have no one at the key all

22:32those in favor of the amendment say aye.

22:33Aye. Any opposed say nay. Amendment

22:35passes.

22:37Got motion second on the bill as

22:38amended. Open the ballot, record your

22:40vote.

22:46>> Eight yeas, zero nays.

22:47>> By our actions, we have passed

22:492026-0753.

22:50Item 14, 2026-0755.

22:54Got motion second on the amendment. Uh

22:56Miss Reber.

22:58>> Through the chair to the committee, the

22:59amendment will reference ordinance

23:002025-186

23:03um to clarify that those funds will also

23:06be able to use

23:07will be able to use the funds for the

23:10electric bike speed limit signs, excuse

23:12me.

23:13>> Thank you, Dr. Johnson.

23:17>> I'm I'm curious.

23:19>> [clears throat]

23:19>> This is procedural, so I'm not sure who

23:21to ask, Mr. Chair, but if and I think

23:23most of us are good, but if there are

23:25those of us that could share those funds

23:27with another district, let's say that

23:29needs it more, is that permissible?

23:34>> Mr. Vapoulos.

23:36>> Through the chair to Council Member

23:37Johnson, currently as it stands, they're

23:39only specific to each district, so

23:41they're in separate accounts. To be able

23:43to do that would require filing

23:44additional legislation that would

23:46authorize that kind of action.

23:47>> Just kind of wave the rule to put to

23:49through the chair, wave the rule to put

23:50it over to someone else's district.

23:51>> Well, it would be to adjust the

23:53authorized uses of the original

23:55appropriation and this additional

23:57appropriation to allow it to be utilized

24:00outside the specific council member's

24:01district.

24:02>> Got it. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

24:04>> Mr. Boylan.

24:07All those in favor of the amendment, say

24:08I. I. Any opposed, say nay. Amendment

24:10passes.

24:12Got a motion, second on the bill as

24:14amended. Mr. Boylan.

24:16>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to

24:18and we had the handout let you know what

24:20funds are available to a vast number of

24:22us. $45,000 was allocated. Some Some of

24:25the colleagues have not even touched it.

24:27So, and doing my little shopping on my

24:29own, e-bike signs roughly depending on

24:32the size anywhere between 50 and 75

24:34dollars a piece, so you can buy quite a

24:35number of those.

24:38Don't need thousands. Don't need

24:39thousands. Be selective as to where you

24:42place them.

24:44And I'm sure HOAs would love to have

24:45them as well.

24:46So, with that, I I

24:48encourage your support.

24:49>> All right, got no one in the queue. I'll

24:51support this, Mr. Boylan, cuz using

24:52budgeted district money for district

24:54things is like using budgeted affordable

24:56housing for affordable housing things.

24:58So, I will support this. Open the

25:00ballot, record your vote.

25:08>> Eight yeas, zero nays.

25:09>> By our actions, we passed 2026-0755.

25:12Item 15 is deferred, 2026-0756.

25:15Item 16

25:16>> Mr. Chair, I'm sorry. I want to be

25:17recognized. Just real quickly, the

25:18deferral on item number 15 is because it

25:21was was not taken up in neighborhoods in

25:23the first in last cycle. So, we're just

25:25letting the neighborhoods get caught up

25:26on this. There are no issues with the

25:28bill per se.

25:30>> Thank you, Mr. Boylan. Item 16,

25:312026-0765.

25:34Got a motion, second.

25:36I have no one in the queue. Open the

25:38ballot, record your vote.

25:46>> Seven yeas, one nay.

25:48>> By our actions, we have passed

25:492026-0765.

25:51Item 17, 2026-0778.

25:55Got a motion, second.

25:57No one in the queue. All my questions

25:59were answered during rules. Open the

26:00ballot, record your vote.

26:11>> Eight yeas, one zero nays.

26:14>> By our actions, item 17, 2026-0778 is

26:16approved.

26:17Uh 18, 19, and 20 on page 13 are all on

26:20second. That's 2026-0800, 0802, 0804, as

26:23is 21, 2026-0805.

26:26Item 22, 2026-0806 is on second, as is

26:2923, 2026-0808.

26:32Item 24 and 25, 2026-0809, 0810 are on

26:36second.

26:38Item 26, 27, 0811 and 0813 are on

26:40second. Item 28, 2026-0814

26:44is on second, as well. Mr. Rieber, Mr.

26:47Topoleski, I believe I've taken all

26:48action items except the last item.

26:51Uh we are going to recognize Mr. Freeman

26:53at this point to go over his quarterly

26:56single source report which Mr. Peterson

26:58is passing out to us right now. Mr.

27:01Freeman, the floor is yours.

27:03>> Mr. Chair, committee members, my

27:04apologies for my tardiness. Murphy is

27:06alive and well.

27:08The report in front of you, Dustin

27:11Freeman, chief of procurement. The

27:13report in front of you is the fourth

27:14quarter single source report for FY26 as

27:17per

27:18section 126-306

27:21F of the procurement code. This report

27:23reflects all single source purchases

27:25over 50,000 and the agency's

27:26justification for each are part of your

27:28backup.

27:30This [clears throat] quarter procurement

27:31processed 11 single source purchase

27:33orders totaling totaling a little over

27:351.6 million and eight purchase order

27:37agreements totaling a little over 2.1

27:39million.

27:41>> [clears throat]

27:41>> There's one of one purchase order that I

27:43would consider unique and that's item

27:44nine in your packet. That's JSO support

27:47services for a little over 64,000.

27:51This was the JSO 911 site move to the

27:55new JSO headquarters.

27:57This concludes my report. Happy to

27:59answer any questions related to

28:00procurement of these single sources.

28:02However, I will defer to the using

28:04agency as if there's any technical

28:06questions regarding the requirement

28:08itself.

28:12>> Thank you. I have no one in the queue.

28:14Mr. Freeman, thank you.

28:16>> Thanks, sir.

28:19>> All right, we're now going to go to page

28:2118. We've completed all other action

28:23items for this meeting. So, now we're on

28:25the additional finance committee

28:26discussion item and that is discussion

28:28on the issuance of a subpoena for Nat

28:30Ford for testimony at a special meeting

28:32of the finance committee on October

28:3423rd, 2026. I'm going to turn over to

28:36our council liaison, Council Member

28:38Diamond.

28:39>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, I have a

28:41motion and then if I can get a second,

28:42I'd like to just speak on it briefly.

28:45>> We have a second from Council Member

28:46Diamond.

28:46>> Well, I need to make the motion first,

28:48but I appreciate the confidence that

28:49I'll say something smart. Um, so, um, I

28:52make a motion that the Finance Committee

28:54uh, subpoena Nat Ford uh, within less

28:57than 7 days. So, essentially for Friday.

29:00Um, Nat Ford has been contacted by, as I

29:03understand it, um,

29:05and there and has not responded. So, he

29:07has been requested to come before this

29:08committee. He's been requested to come

29:10before the uh, special committee looking

29:12at it. And because, as we know, Nat Ford

29:14is leaving Jacksonville um, to start up

29:17at DART in next week, I assume, or his

29:19last day here is tomorrow. Uh, that's

29:22what underlies the need for an

29:24emergency. So, my motion is to have that

29:27subpoena issued by this committee for a

29:29Finance Committee meeting on Friday,

29:31this Friday.

29:33I need a second.

29:34>> Can I get a second?

29:35Okay, we have multiple seconds.

29:38Uh, so, now it's a discussion on the

29:40motion. So, we have uh, the Council

29:42President, you are in queue.

29:44Or, I apologize. Councilman Diamond, did

29:46you want to speak?

29:47>> want to explain my motion.

29:48>> Go ahead.

29:48>> Yeah, so, uh, you know, I make this

29:50motion reluctantly, but given the

29:51timeline, we really have to issue this

29:54as fast as humanly possible because Nat

29:57is leaving. And I I don't want to have

29:59to issue a subpoena to anybody, but this

30:01is essentially a preemptive subpoena.

30:04I'm asking that Nat just come here

30:05voluntarily. Don't be don't force the

30:09enforcement of a subpoena on somebody.

30:12Just come before the committee and

30:13answer some questions about what's going

30:15on at JTA. And then, anybody who's

30:17listening is might ask why should he

30:19have to answer these questions? And I'll

30:21just lay out the predicate just briefly

30:22here. Like, JTA

30:25in the last 2 years has gone from being

30:28uh, solvent to insolvent, $40 million in

30:31the hole. And during this process, we've

30:35now had to, as a council, change

30:37L-O-G-G-T 2 money, $30 of it, into a

30:40temporary loan just so they can pay

30:42their bills. 200 people who have done

30:44nothing wrong other than show up to work

30:46and work the last three years got fired

30:48uh two and a half weeks ago. And so it

30:50is an absolute crisis nightmare at one

30:52of the most important things a city does

30:54or community has. And the CEO for that

30:57is leaving town. He's literally

30:59on his way to Dallas. Before he goes,

31:01I'd like him to just to explain to the

31:03people of Jacksonville

31:05what happened. Why did you keep pursuing

31:07this course even though you couldn't

31:08afford the money just for normal

31:10operations?

31:11And to answer those so that everybody

31:12who lost their job, everybody who now

31:14can't get to work or school as

31:16efficiently as they used to, and for

31:17frankly all the taxpayers and the

31:19ratepayers in Jacksonville can get the

31:20answers from the horse's mouth. So

31:21that's the why. We deserve answers and

31:24I'd like to get them.

31:26>> Council President, then Council member

31:28Salem.

31:29>> Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I concur

31:31entirely with uh Councilman Diamond. Uh

31:33I don't think this is a witch hunt. Um

31:35we're not trying to um

31:37uh forcefully demand his presence um if

31:41we don't have to. Uh that's not how we

31:43stood up the select committee. That's

31:45not um what I think this council needs

31:47to do. This council does need to get to

31:49the bottom of how we got where we are so

31:51we can figure out how to fix uh what we

31:54have moving forward. Um that said, last

31:56week I watched uh the select committee

31:58meet um and I spoke with several board

32:00members.

32:01And

32:02as far as I understand it, council

32:04auditors and the board members could

32:06only go by the financial projections

32:07presented to them by the leadership at

32:10JTA. Um so we're in a position where we

32:13now have to get testimony from the

32:15leadership at JTA and how they prepared

32:17those projections. That's why we need uh

32:20Nat Ford uh to present. And as I'm uh

32:23reading it and understand it from

32:24Councilman Diamond, this is a testimony

32:26subpoena. It's not a document subpoena.

32:27We just want to hear what he had to say.

32:29He ran this agency for the last decade.

32:31So we need to hear uh from him how it

32:33went. I suspect um because I'm a bit of

32:36a Pollyanna, I always have wishful

32:38thinking that he did nothing wrong. Um,

32:40but I'd like to understand where it went

32:42wrong. And for us to understand that, we

32:44need Nat Ford's testimony.

32:46Um, so I called him this morning. I've

32:49not gotten a call back. I wanted him to

32:51say he'd come in anyways Friday.

32:53Um, I believe that the chair of the

32:55select committee has sent him an email

32:57um, and probably hasn't heard back yet.

32:59Although that my call this morning and

33:00the email were both today.

33:02So, Councilman Diamond, are you um, uh,

33:05getting this in advance? Do we want to

33:07give him more time to voluntarily say

33:09he'll come before we issue this? Is that

33:10how you'd like to do it?

33:11>> Uh, through the chair to the Council

33:13President. No, I'd like to issue the

33:14subpoena and then he can voluntarily

33:16come. And and and if I had been in

33:18Jacksonville for 10 years, had appeared

33:20at this podium for so long, and know

33:22that a subpoena's hanging, I would just

33:23come. Agreed. Um,

33:25and look, and for anybody who's really

33:26wondering, like the state of Texas can

33:29assist us with a subpoena. The Attorney

33:31General of Texas can assist us with a

33:32subpoena. Let's just get this done.

33:34Let's get the answers and then he can

33:36move on with his life.

33:37>> Then if I still can, Chair, then I agree

33:39with you. I mean, I don't want to force

33:40him. I'd hope that he comes back and

33:41says, "Yeah, of course I'll come and and

33:43talk to you." and responds to Mr. Miller

33:44or or gives me a call back.

33:46Um, but in the event he doesn't, we'll

33:48have the subpoena here um, to try to

33:50bring him back when he can. Um, I would

33:52like to ask Mr. Chair, timing-wise, uh,

33:55for Mary, what is the timing here in the

33:56subpoena? So, um, the subpoena's saying,

33:59"Please come to us by Friday, October

34:0123rd." When does this need to be um,

34:04signed by the Council Secretary and and

34:06um, served by JSO?

34:08>> Through the chair to Council Member or

34:10to Council President Howland. Thank you

34:11for the question. So, one of the things

34:13that Councilman Diamond ensured to

34:15include in his motion was that it was

34:17the subpoena was being issued for

34:19testimony on a date that is a period of

34:21less than 7 days out because under the

34:23Council rules, traditionally, when you

34:25issue a subpoena to compel attendance of

34:26a witness, it should provide for at

34:28least 7 days notice prior to that

34:30testimony being elicited in front of the

34:32committee, but the committee can

34:34authorize the issuance of a subpoena

34:36through a majority vote for a lesser

34:38period of time. So, based on that and

34:40because I understand there's an

34:41emergency need, there's an emergent need

34:43to get Mr. Ford here prior to his

34:45departure to move to the state of Texas,

34:48I would recommend and the Council

34:49Secretary and I have discussed it this

34:51morning and he is prepared that if the

34:53Finance Committee does authorize the

34:55issuance of the subpoena, he would be

34:56prepared to do that immediately after

34:59this meeting because we have to

35:00coordinate with JSO for service of the

35:01subpoena and also the notice for the

35:04Finance Committee special meeting on

35:05Friday would need to go out immediately

35:07to ensure there's as much advance notice

35:09both to the witness as well as to the

35:11public of the special meeting.

35:13>> Okay. Thank you. And through the chair,

35:14please if I can, Mary, that both those

35:16things could be done right after this

35:17meeting if we needed to. That's not a

35:18problem. Um here's a a question though.

35:21What if uh Mr. Ford comes back and he

35:23says, "I'm glad to do it. I can't be

35:25here Friday, but I can come back, you

35:27know, um 2 weeks and appear before a

35:29Finance Committee."

35:30>> Through the chair to Council President

35:32Haland, I think to the extent that that

35:33is his response, the committee could

35:36choose to then have a special meeting at

35:38a at a different time and allow him the

35:41opportunity to come back at that

35:42subsequent date to testify in front of

35:45the committee and work with the witness

35:47to to schedule it for a different time.

35:49>> Okay, then in that case I'm I'm

35:51supportive of the uh motion by Mr.

35:53Diamond of whoever wants to make

35:55amendment to uh reduce it uh from 7 days

35:58under Council rules.

36:00>> That was part of his original motion.

36:01>> part of it. Okay, good. Um and then

36:03we'll in do the subpoena right

36:05afterwards, um notice the meeting on

36:07Friday right afterwards and then if he

36:08can't make it, we can always change that

36:10notice meeting to do it. I'm happy with

36:11that. Thank you.

36:13>> I'm going to take a chair privilege real

36:14quick. Uh Mr. Pappas, how would we know

36:16like who is the right person that Mr.

36:18Ford would potentially communicate that

36:20to? Is it our liaison? Is it the Council

36:23President? Is it the Finance Chair? Like

36:26or is it just whoever hears from him

36:27first? Like how would that process work

36:29to know whether there's an alternative?

36:31And I noticed that the time is blank on

36:33this draft subpoena, so I think that's a

36:34discussion we have to have after we vote

36:37on the motion here. But I'm just

36:38wondering ahead of time how is it just

36:41if if one of us is contacted by Mr.

36:43Ford, should we then immediately reach

36:45out to you? And it could be some sort of

36:47one-way communication as to a proposed

36:50new date for him to come in and talk to

36:52us.

36:52>> So to the chair,

36:54traditionally because it's the Finance

36:56Committee that's issuing the subpoena,

36:58that kind of communication would go

37:00through the chair of the committee.

37:01However, if you wanted to allow for that

37:04to be delegate not necessarily

37:06delegated, but delegate to Mr. Diamond

37:08as the JTA liaison or if the president

37:11would prefer to be that individual who

37:14receives that communication has that

37:15communication with Mr. Ford, I think you

37:17could address whoever would be

37:19responsible for that. I do think though

37:21it would be appropriate to allow one

37:23individual to be the point of contact to

37:25avoid miscommunication or lack of

37:27communication because of different

37:28parties being involved. I think that's a

37:30good idea.

37:31>> And so to clarify, it sounds like the

37:32finance chair can directly delegate the

37:34JTA liaison to be that person.

37:36>> I I think you could in this instance.

37:39>> All right.

37:40So so Mr. Ergood.

37:43>> If so if that's your if that's your wish

37:46and the motion pass and we come up with

37:48the time, I will immediately

37:50send a note to to Nat and tell him just

37:53you just get back with me or have his

37:54attorney get back with me.

37:56>> And I feel like that's probably the the

37:57best way to handle just having our

37:59liaison be the liaison through the whole

38:00process. Okay.

38:02With that, got a number in queue. I did

38:04have more committee members pop up, so

38:05I'm going to go Boyland, Johnson, Salem.

38:09>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. I I fully support

38:11the the

38:13the motion. Just a suggestion and a

38:16comment. Obviously the

38:18the council auditors were very specific

38:20in their concerns. I think as we take a

38:22look and ask Mr.

38:23Ford to speak to the issues rather than

38:26we can ballpark him all we want, but

38:28start it off with there are three

38:29critical issues with respect to the

38:31the Council Auditor's report. Be

38:33prepared to speak to those issues in

38:34particular so that we've got a starting

38:37point in the conversation and he knows

38:39what he has to speak to more

38:40specifically.

38:41So I would say in direct response to the

38:43Council Auditor's

38:45concerns and report. If that suggests

38:48I'm not saying that change or amend the

38:49motion, I'm just giving you some

38:50direction as to I think might be the

38:52best way to handle this.

38:53>> Council member Diamond.

38:54>> Uh to the chair to Mr. Boylan. I I agree

38:56with you. It's good to have direction

38:57and it we can have including but not

38:59limited to and then we can focus on

39:01that. And Ms. Mary, uh I don't know

39:04through the chair to Mary.

39:07Last time we issued subpoenas, we uh

39:09during JEA, we had some specific topics

39:11we asked for people when we had

39:13subpoenas. I think that makes sense to

39:15go ahead. I don't know if you need me to

39:16articulate those now.

39:18>> Through the chair to Council member

39:19Diamond, so you each have a copy of the

39:21draft subpoena

39:24in front of you that Mr. Teel has

39:26prepared in advance of the meeting and

39:28it does address that um

39:30he would be a list you would be

39:32eliciting testimony relative to the FAO

39:34Select Committee's charge. However, we

39:36could always add the specific issues

39:39that are addressed in the Council

39:40Auditor's report and findings and

39:43include those as part of what he would

39:45be testifying to.

39:46>> it just makes sense to have that

39:47direction embedded. I I would

39:49>> Yeah, yeah, if if I might can we just

39:50add that specific one in front of this

39:53list, right? And so it's including but

39:55not limited to will narrow down because

39:57really those were hey, the red flags

39:59from Council Auditors.

40:00>> those Auditors and

40:02and make sure Mr. Teel is here so he's

40:04able to take this information back, but

40:06we'll clarify with Mr. Peterson what the

40:09what might be the best way to identify

40:11those items in here and include them in

40:12the subpoena.

40:13>> From my perspective, I just want to see

40:15the meeting be as productive as possible

40:16and ask the instructor and give him a

40:18chance to prepare for it.

40:20>> Dr. Johnson.

40:23Then Dr. Salem.

40:24>> Thank you. Just got a couple questions.

40:26Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um

40:28as it relates to the subpoena,

40:30I did hear you say and I just want to

40:32make sure we're in the same space. We

40:33did reach out as a committee or did That

40:37may be to you, Mr. President, through

40:38the chair. Did you just reach out to Nat

40:40directly or did we reach out officially?

40:43Can you help me understand that?

40:47>> Council President.

40:48>> Thank you, Mr. Chair, through the chair

40:50to Councilman Johnson. Yeah, I called

40:51him this morning. Um I just said, you

40:53know, I was out last week but noticing

40:55last week through the select committee

40:57and seeing folks interviewed, they want

40:59to hear from you. Would you be willing

41:00to come before committee?

41:02Um and then I believe Mr. Miller now has

41:04sent a direct email on his own

41:06letterhead as the head of the select

41:08committee doing the investigation right

41:09now, um asking the same.

41:11>> Thank you, Mr. And Mr. President, was

41:12that your first time reaching out to uh

41:15Nat Ford?

41:16>> Yes.

41:17>> Got you. And that was this morning?

41:18>> Yes.

41:19>> Uh through the chair to Councilmember

41:21Miller, Chairman Miller, for that

41:22committee, for the select committee,

41:24when did you send that communication to

41:27Mr. Ford or to Nat Ford for

41:30the to request him to come to the

41:31special committee?

41:32>> That was just before this meeting. So,

41:35there hasn't been much time

41:37receiving it but I also copy furnished

41:40the acting CEO as well so that there

41:43in case there

41:45some type of concern on the email

41:47address or a change from his previous

41:49CEO email address, wanted to make sure

41:52that JTA leadership was aware of that.

41:55>> So, we haven't He hadn't voluntarily had

41:57enough time to to to say he'd come or

42:00not

42:01>> yet.

42:01>> No, and I think that's fair and I think

42:03that's also why I'd like the discussion

42:06on,

42:08you know,

42:09him being able to respond and be able to

42:11say,

42:13you know, I'm going to be there and I'll

42:15or

42:16to propose an alternative date that

42:19works better with his schedule if that

42:20doesn't work well with what he's got

42:22planned.

42:23>> Then we would subpoena.

42:24>> Um

42:25no, what I'm what I'm saying is I I like

42:27that discussion and that opening. If he

42:30comes back to us

42:32with that

42:33um an alternative date because the the

42:36date of this Friday isn't working uh for

42:40him. Um I I think that's a good a good

42:44opening, a good option uh for us because

42:47this has been a short timeline

42:49um and you know, so I I think the the

42:52hope is and in my in my opinion, the way

42:55I um

42:58I

42:59put it in the letter, it was

43:02it was a very

43:04>> Just come come visit with us.

43:05>> non-confrontational. Just

43:06>> just an invitation to come on Friday to

43:09our meeting. Um and so I'm hoping

43:12through this process

43:13there's just a willful agreement. Yes,

43:16that is the best thing. Since I was the

43:18CEO for the time in question, I should

43:21be the point person for JTA to be able

43:23to respond.

43:24>> Understood. Mr. Chair, to you

43:27if we obviously there's nothing on the

43:28floor yet because the council member

43:31is going to propose uh an action, maybe.

43:34>> No.

43:35>> He It is What is the motion that's on

43:37the floor right now? Cuz that's where

43:38I'm a little confused. That's why I'm

43:39asking

43:39>> I'll tell you what I'm

43:40>> We have a motion a second to what uh Mr.

43:43Pappas, do you want to

43:44>> Which is the subpoena.

43:45>> So, the motion on the floor is to issue

43:48a subpoena for um for a period of less

43:51than 7 days for to Mr. Ford to appear

43:54before the Finance Committee for a

43:56special meeting on Friday, October 23rd.

43:58And the time is yet to be determined on

43:59that date, which will be discussed as

44:01part of this process.

44:02>> That was going to be the next question.

44:03So, with this motion comes through the

44:06chair to Mr. Populous. With this motion

44:09comes an official Friday date for a

44:12meeting.

44:13>> Correct.

44:14>> Which we which we have to decide the

44:15time, but the date of Friday for the

44:17meeting will happen. Want to make sure

44:19of that.

44:20I'm a little bit uncomfortable with

44:22jumping to support a subpoena when the

44:25council president called this morning,

44:28uh the chair of the special select

44:29committee sent an email this morning,

44:31and I know I'm still going through

44:33emails from yesterday. Um and and phone

44:36messages, and I just don't want to jump

44:37to a subpoena when it is maybe we

44:41haven't given enough time to at least

44:42answer the question to say, "Hey, we can

44:43come about." Because then it turns into

44:45almost an adversarial process

44:47unnecessarily, I think, unless we ask

44:50and then they are saying, "We are not

44:51coming."

44:53Um that's just my thought on the uh on

44:55the matter. Thank you.

44:56>> Thank you. And uh just to be clear, uh

44:58that was one of my questions. I don't

44:59know if we need to figure out the time

45:01before we vote on this, but I'm sure Mr.

45:03Populous will let us know that in a

45:04couple minutes. Councilmember

45:05>> Yeah, uh through the chair, just to

45:06respond to my colleague. I I agree with

45:08you. That's a very tight timeline.

45:10That's why it's done

45:11uh

45:12pardon my French, like gentlemen, which

45:14is to say, I'm going to send Nat a

45:16letter um today after this if this

45:18passes and says, "This is the subpoena.

45:21Reach out to me. Let me know. Does

45:23Friday work for you?" And if it doesn't,

45:25we'll find another day.

45:26But if he's like, "Absolutely, I'm not

45:27coming."

45:28or no response at all,

45:31right then,

45:32Friday comes and goes and he doesn't

45:33show, then the next step is to then come

45:36back to the standing committee to see,

45:37"Do we want to enforce this subpoena?"

45:39And then it goes to the council as a

45:40whole. Do they want to enforce the

45:42subpoena? And if the answer is yes,

45:44Mayor, I think I got this right.

45:45I've done this before now. Uh then we

45:47have a vote. But but hopefully we don't

45:49have to go down that road. That's like a

45:50whole journey that's totally

45:51unnecessary. So, that's why to me it

45:53makes sense go go ahead and get this

45:54done.

45:56This is going to exist. This process is

45:57going to happen. We are going to talk

45:59one way or the other. Let's do it easily

46:01on Friday.

46:03>> Okay, I just want to make sure and I'm

46:04forgive me for I just you're you're the

46:06lawyer so that's why I'm asking you

46:08through and and Mr. Vaplus of course

46:10through the chair. So, in this space

46:13once we vote on this document a subpoena

46:18does that it still needs to go to be

46:20ratified so to speak by the entire

46:22council? No, once we issue the subpoena

46:24they can come. So, the next question is

46:27can the we then turn around and withdraw

46:29the subpoena if he agrees to come

46:32um once we've heard from Nat?

46:35>> Mr. Vaplus

46:39>> Through the chair to council member

46:41Johnson, yes at that point you could

46:43release him from the subpoena.

46:45And then if he fails to appear or you

46:48can't secure a date and something

46:50continues to change then you can make a

46:51determination if you want to issue a new

46:53subpoena.

46:53>> New subpoena, okay. Thank you. Sorry, I

46:55just want to understand procedure. I

46:56appreciate you.

46:59>> All right. Dr. Saylor, I promise we'll

47:01get to you but first Council member

47:02Miller and then Council member Hall

47:06>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Real quick through

47:07the chair, I just wanted to make sure

47:09everyone was aware we currently have a

47:11scheduled meeting of the select

47:14committee Friday at 9:30. So

47:18there is a time and this location

47:21reserved for that meeting. Um you know,

47:24we can move the the current announced

47:27agenda to accommodate if if the finance

47:30committee uh so desires to do so. So, I

47:33just wanted to I just wanted to make

47:35that clear. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

47:37>> Thank you, Council President.

47:38>> Thank you, Mr. Chair and uh as the

47:40Council member Johnson's point, yeah

47:41you've identified a important thing

47:43which is we've only called him this

47:44morning, we've only sent an email to him

47:46today um and we're about to issue the

47:48subpoena this afternoon but that's why I

47:51started out saying this isn't a witch

47:52hunt. This is a quote friendly subpoena

47:55um and and part of that is driven by the

47:57fact that he is on um he's he's off

48:00payroll tomorrow.

48:02And he starts his new job in Dallas

48:04Monday. So, a lot of this is uh-oh, we

48:06we just discovered last week that a lot

48:09of the issue we have here is projections

48:11provided to the board and to the

48:12auditors

48:14were likely faulty. And so, we need to

48:16understand how those projections were

48:17prepared.

48:18And so, now is the time to get him. This

48:21is a subpoena kind of the to have as

48:24necessary. We understand his, you know,

48:27schedule and he probably will be willing

48:30to come before us. So, again, it's

48:31trying to be flexible. If he can't come

48:33Friday and tells us when he can't come,

48:34we'll make it happen. So, we're trying

48:35to be as accommodating as we can, but I

48:37think the city and the city council

48:39deserves this testimony. Therefore,

48:41going through this process. Thank you.

48:43>> Council past president, Dr. Salem.

48:46>> Thank you, chair, for recognizing me. I

48:48have through the chair to Miss Miss

48:51Mary.

48:52It's a majority vote of the finance

48:53committee to issue the subpoena.

48:56And if this if this committee issues it,

48:59does that mean the testimony occurs at

49:01this committee?

49:02>> Through the chair to council member

49:03Salem, I appreciate the question. Yes,

49:05it's a majority vote of the committee.

49:07In addition, it's important that that

49:09also requires a majority vote of the

49:11committee to issue a subpoena for a

49:12period of less than 7 days out, which is

49:15why that was included in Mr. Diamond's

49:17motion. And yes, the subpoena is to have

49:20the witness appear before the committee

49:22issuing the subpoena.

49:23>> Okay.

49:25Um,

49:27colleagues, I have a

49:28sort of a different approach.

49:30And what which is one of the reasons I

49:32wanted to run down here. One, I am very

49:35concerned about the timeline of a phone

49:38call this morning and an email that

49:41occurred 45 minutes ago. In addition, at

49:44our oversight committee that we had last

49:47week, we asked for a timeline of CFOs

49:52uh, within JEA within JTA. So, we could

49:56I think the three of us and the

49:58committee identify exactly who was the

50:01CFO when this thing went south. Maybe

50:04it's more than one. Um, I got advice

50:07from uh, Council member Diamond, my my

50:11colleague

50:12Uh, you always start below and then you

50:15move up.

50:17And and I think to jump to the to the

50:19CEO without getting information from the

50:23CFOs of what they were doing

50:26what they knew and why were the numbers

50:29are are so off before we even talked to

50:33the CEO

50:35I think is uh,

50:37it's not appropriate in my mind. I mean,

50:40I I remember as Council member Diamond

50:42does, I'm sure

50:43um,

50:44you know, subpoenas by the City Council

50:47um, were not well received in the

50:49community just uh, several months ago.

50:53Uh,

50:54and so I think we should be very careful

50:57and not use subpoenas if we can avoid

51:00it. Um, I don't know whether

51:03I and in addition to that, he's got

51:06subpoenas from the Attorney General. I

51:08would be very concerned about talking if

51:11I were Nat Ford talking to anybody and

51:14I'm sure he might be getting that advice

51:16from his attorneys right now. Um,

51:20the fact that he's going to Texas

51:22doesn't prevent us from from from

51:24getting some information from him. One

51:26of the things that you might suggest I

51:29would suggest is we develop a list of

51:31questions.

51:32Have the auditors help us develop a list

51:35of questions for Mr. Ford. You know,

51:37what did you know? When did you know it?

51:40Uh, and and get that to him and let and

51:43maybe he'll respond to that versus

51:46testimony. But in summary,

51:49I would start with our Friday meeting,

51:52learning who these CFOs were,

51:55um determining who was in charge when it

51:57went south. It may be more than one.

52:00And, uh get them in here.

52:04And then, depending on what they tell

52:06us, if they were directed to do

52:08something,

52:09um

52:10with the books that was inappropriate,

52:11then obviously, it goes up. And at the

52:14same time, have the auditors develop

52:16questions, uh for Mr. Ford, that uh that

52:20we can begin developing and get to him.

52:23I I know that's a lot different than

52:25what you were just discussing, but but

52:28having been through this this thing with

52:30subpoenas,

52:32um

52:33I I just think we need to slow down as a

52:36council.

52:38Thank you.

52:39>> Dr. Johnson, then Councilmember Diamond.

52:42>> Thank you. And, Dr. Salem, I was

52:44actually had some notes. I appreciate uh

52:46through the chair to Dr. Salem, uh those

52:48those comments, cuz I kind of think

52:50we're moving a little quickly um to rush

52:52to a subpoena. Uh I want to say, as I

52:54was like looking through things, not

52:56just the the chair, I obviously, being

52:58liaison prior to Councilmember Diamond,

53:00I've gotten all the questions, a lot of

53:02questions from not just the community,

53:03but the media and others as well. And

53:05one of the things that I have constantly

53:07reminded everyone is while there was one

53:09person who was the CEO and there was the

53:11CFO, there was also a board who made the

53:14final decision. And so, it may also um

53:18one of the things I put in my notes is

53:19that it may be uh incumbent upon us to

53:22maybe bring in the board chair at that

53:24time as well. So, that way, if there

53:25questions about

53:27while there were some finance things

53:29that were presented, uh perhaps there

53:31may be questions that exist for not just

53:33one person, but to look at those who had

53:35the decision-making authority to say,

53:38"This is what we will do." And that

53:40authority rests with the board. So, at

53:42this point, I don't think I would be

53:44voting to support issuing a subpoena

53:47until such time that we've heard from

53:49Mr. Ford. I don't want that to preclude

53:51the fact that I want to hear this

53:52testimony. I want to hear from the

53:53board. I want to hear from the CFO. I

53:56want to hear from the CEO. I think it's

53:57important, but I also think due process

54:00is important, and I think we should give

54:02those individuals an opportunity to

54:03either say I can or can't get the advice

54:06from their counsel, but to rush to a

54:08subpoena and rush to a thing on Friday

54:10without giving them the opportunity to

54:13prepare for it, I think is not in the

54:15service of this council and certainly

54:18not in the service of this city. Thank

54:19you.

54:20>> Mr. Diamond.

54:23Uh yeah, my colleague's points are are

54:25well taken, but let me just say this.

54:26First of all, I think the community is

54:28going to receive this subpoena very well

54:30given the circumstances. That's one. Uh

54:32two, the timing here, I would agree if

54:35Mr. Ford had like six more months on his

54:37contract, he's going to be six he's

54:38going to be here for six more months. I

54:39would start at the bottom and work my

54:41way up, get the documents first, get a

54:42really nice set of questions. I would

54:43love to do it that way. That is how you

54:45run an investigation. I've done

54:46literally hundreds of them. I love doing

54:48them properly.

54:50Uh but

54:51uh Mr. Ford is an employee of JTA until

54:54end of today tomorrow, and then will be

54:56headed to go be the CEO of DART next

54:58week. So, that timing is is what we're

55:00stuck with. It's just what it is. And

55:02the people want to have the answers.

55:04Subpoenas happen all the time every day.

55:06They're not the end of the world. It's

55:07not a conviction. It's nothing like

55:08that. It's simply a legal demand that

55:11you appear. And so, we need to make the

55:13demand, in my opinion, for Mr. Ford to

55:15appear on Friday. If he can't make it,

55:17if he tells me I can't do it, we'll find

55:19another time, right? And we'll be

55:20rational and reasonable about it. It's

55:22But we do need to issue it, in my

55:23opinion, while he's still working for

55:24JTA and is still in Jacksonville.

55:27Because that itself has legal weight in

55:29my mind. That while you're taking our

55:32money and you are in our city and you're

55:34subject to the jurisdiction of this

55:36committee, you're subject to the

55:37jurisdiction of the city, you are

55:38subject to the jurisdiction of the laws

55:40of Florida, now is the time to issue a

55:42subpoena, not after he's gone. That

55:44would be a

55:45strategic mistake by the

55:48this committee if we waited.

55:50>> Thank you. Okay, no one else in the

55:52queue. My thoughts,

55:54I don't love the speed at which we're

55:55doing this, but two things, right? One,

55:58I think it's going to be easier while he

55:59is still here in Jacksonville before he

56:01starts a new job, and also we'll be

56:03talking to a former CEO. We've been

56:05talking about working our way up. We'll

56:07be talking to a former CEO, not a

56:08current CEO of the Independent

56:10Authority.

56:11Mr. Pappas, so with regards to the

56:14motion before we vote, do we have to

56:16fill in the blank on the time here? I

56:18heard Council Member Miller said that

56:20sounds like you have some flexibility on

56:21Friday that we could essentially make

56:24that the meeting of the Finance

56:26Committee at 9:30 instead of the

56:28Financial Audit and Oversight Committee.

56:30Is that correct?

56:33>> I think if we if we wanted to

56:35through the chair, to the chair,

56:38we could move back that agenda.

56:41And and then

56:43if if we get through it if he's able to

56:46come and and decides

56:48this works and we have that as the main

56:54focus item for for that start of the

56:56meeting. If if that doesn't take long,

56:59my my preference would be then we move

57:02on in as a committee to the other things

57:04that we had planned to make best use of

57:07that time.

57:09So,

57:10I I don't know if that hits what you

57:12just said, but that would be my

57:14recommendation.

57:14>> Thank you. So, that's part one. Part two

57:16is I'll look at my colleagues here. We

57:18still have to have a quorum of four at a

57:20minimum for the Finance Committee, not

57:22the Financial Audit and Oversight

57:24Committee. So, I'll just look from left

57:25to right. Who thinks they can make it

57:26Friday at 9:30 if we approve this

57:29motion? I got a yes from Johnson, yes

57:31from Diamond, yes from Miller.

57:33I'll find a way to make it Councilmember

57:34Gay, Councilmember White.

57:38All right, we got a we got a possible to

57:39probable from Councilmember White.

57:41Boyland is good.

57:43Uh

57:46You can help with the quorum, yes. And

57:47Dr. Salem, you were going to be here

57:49anyways for the FAO meeting. Uh

57:52Mr. Diamond.

57:53>> Uh I'm trying to work with our staff

57:55here. Would 10:30 work because I want to

57:57make sure

57:59the staff that needs to be here can be

58:00and I know some of them have stuff that

58:02they can't miss.

58:04>> So, if that's the case, uh first off,

58:06does 10:30 is 10:30 just as good as 9:30

58:09for most folks? Okay, so

58:12I guess Legislative Services, I'll let

58:14y'all figure out how how best to get rid

58:16of the 9:30 FAO meeting, do the 10:30

58:19Finance Committee Special Finance

58:21Committee meeting, and then find a way

58:23that I guess you move the FAO to after

58:26that if there's time remaining. We can

58:27we can talk about that after the fact,

58:29but for now, 10:30, Dr. Johnson, you're

58:31in the queue.

58:34Yep. Yep, you're recognized.

58:36>> I mean, I like most of us have things on

58:38the schedule. I'm going to make it work.

58:39This is important. We need to get this

58:41information.

58:42I hope before we take this vote though

58:44that we really think about it. I just

58:46want us to think again. Imagine

58:49any one of us who

58:51just did not have the

58:53Think about it. We've also asked Nat to

58:56come to other meetings and he's he's

58:57come. And Cleveland and Jessica and the

58:59entire team. Um

59:01Uh Raj, whomever was there. I just think

59:04and I I have to agree with you, Mr.

59:05Chair, that we are moving at the speed

59:06of light and just because

59:09um

59:10Nat is going to stop getting paid by the

59:12city,

59:13I think that they're just in having

59:16conversations with him as the liaison, I

59:18just want to be fair. And I think this

59:20is a totally unfair thing to do to jump

59:22from request to subpoena within hours.

59:26I I just don't know that that makes I've

59:28never

59:30you know, I'm not a lawyer. I don't

59:31understand parts of the process, but I

59:33think this is very uncomfortable for me

59:36to to support a process that doesn't

59:38even give a person a chance to catch

59:40their breath and say yes or no, and then

59:43we subpoena them. As as was said

59:45earlier, you know, it's not like he's

59:47leaving the country or leaving the time.

59:49He's going to be here, and I don't think

59:51as a professional who's done

59:53transportation

59:54for decades that he's just going to

59:56disappear. So, I I cannot support this

59:59in the way that we're doing this, and I

1:00:00wish that we could find another way to

1:00:03at least try and then move to subpoena.

1:00:06Escalate, but not just become

1:00:08antagonistic, especially in light of the

1:00:10fact where that was shared earlier that

1:00:12there's subpoenas from other entities

1:00:14that that agency and that himself is

1:00:17dealing with. Thank you.

1:00:18>> Thank you. Now, one else in the queue?

1:00:19One other comment I meant to add, if Mr.

1:00:21Ford does contact Mr. Diamond, if

1:00:24there's a better time, I I would like to

1:00:26be flexible around Mr. Ford's schedule

1:00:28as well to

1:00:29the best extent possible. Okay, so with

1:00:31that, we are going to take a motion

1:00:34on the motion that I Council member

1:00:35Diamond has before us. All those in

1:00:38favor, say I.

1:00:39I. Any opposed, say nay.

1:00:42I have one nay from Dr. Johnson, so the

1:00:44motion on that passes. Mr. Foppoli, any

1:00:48cleanup items we need to do with regards

1:00:50to the potential scheduling, noticing

1:00:52meetings, etc. that you need us to give

1:00:54you input while we're all together here

1:00:56>> Thank you.

1:00:57>> dais.

1:00:57>> To the chair and through the chair of

1:00:59the committee, so based on the

1:01:00discussion, we will update the subpoena

1:01:03draft that you have in front of you to

1:01:05include at the beginning of the list the

1:01:06three items from the Council Auditor's

1:01:08report with respect to the topics of

1:01:10testimony that would be elicited from

1:01:12Mr. Ford. We will insert the time of

1:01:1410:30 a.m. on the morning of Friday,

1:01:17October 23rd for the start of the

1:01:18special committee the special meeting of

1:01:20the committee.

1:01:22Um, and then we will work with um, Mr.

1:01:25Teel and legislative services to issue

1:01:28those subpoena and put out the notice of

1:01:31that special meeting as soon as

1:01:32possible. Um, my only question to the

1:01:36committee and more with respect to

1:01:38Council member Miller with the FAO

1:01:40Select Committee just so that

1:01:41legislative services has the information

1:01:43and can act on it. Do you still want to

1:01:45have at least a portion of the FAO

1:01:47Select Committee meeting at 9:30 or do

1:01:50you intend to cancel that meeting and

1:01:52just reschedule it

1:01:54based on what ends up transpiring on

1:01:56Friday with the special committee a

1:01:58special meeting of the Finance

1:01:59Committee?

1:01:59>> Uh, through the chair. Thank you for

1:02:02that that question. Now that it's been

1:02:06um,

1:02:07I I believe the plan is to go to 10:30

1:02:09with the special finance meeting, right?

1:02:12Um, I think it's fine for us to go

1:02:15forward with the 9:30.

1:02:18Um, and then we can cover

1:02:21hopefully a good portion. And and JTA

1:02:24has prepared for that session and so I I

1:02:27would rather given all that they have on

1:02:29their plate with the State Attorney

1:02:31General and others,

1:02:33they're prepared to do that. We gave

1:02:34them a couple uh, an extra week to be

1:02:37able to do that. So, I I'm glad you

1:02:39asked that. I would prefer we do as much

1:02:43as we can with the Select Committee at

1:02:469:30 and then transition to to this

1:02:50special finance meeting.

1:02:52>> Through the chair to Council member

1:02:53Miller. Thank you very much for that.

1:02:55So, um, I will

1:02:57coordinate with legislative services and

1:02:59we will coordinate with your ECA uh,

1:03:01Miss Register. Um, I think there's just

1:03:03a So, if you start at 9:30, they're just

1:03:06going to need a little time to turn over

1:03:07the dais for the special meeting of the

1:03:10Finance Committee. So, you might be able

1:03:11to go up to like 10:20 um, and allow for

1:03:14that turn over for the 10:30 meeting.

1:03:16So, we'll work with you all to make sure

1:03:17that that's coordinated appropriately.

1:03:22>> Dr. Salem.

1:03:26Thank you, Chair. Council Miller, you

1:03:27were getting into what I was going to

1:03:29suggest is go ahead and meeting at 9:30,

1:03:31but if if the if he does not appear at

1:03:3510:30, can we structure the the the

1:03:38meeting to the oversight committee to

1:03:40continue as it would have so that we

1:03:43don't have to stop it at 10:30 because

1:03:46it was noticed that way because I think

1:03:48we have enough business to to continue

1:03:51past 10:30.

1:03:52>> Through the chair to Council Member

1:03:53Salem, the committee doesn't have a hard

1:03:56The FAS Select Committee doesn't have a

1:03:57hard stop on the notice. However, the

1:03:59notice for the special meeting of the

1:04:01Finance Committee will be at 10:30. So,

1:04:04based on the notice for this committee,

1:04:06you would have to shift over whether

1:04:08he's present or not. If we find out in

1:04:10advance that he's available at a

1:04:12different time on Friday, and we can

1:04:14confirm a quorum with the Finance

1:04:16Committee, we can issue an amended

1:04:18notice for that meeting and for a

1:04:20potentially a new time, but ultimately

1:04:21the notice for this committee will

1:04:24state 10:30.

1:04:26>> Ms. Mary, could we just make the make

1:04:29ours for Finance 11:00 or 11:30 then?

1:04:32Make it closer to lunch.

1:04:33>> start the meeting whenever you would

1:04:35like.

1:04:36Um that's certainly but that would need

1:04:37to be a discussion cuz we need to put

1:04:39that in the subpoena.

1:04:39>> Right. So, so to Mr. Miller and Dr.

1:04:42Salem, would 11:00 work better? That way

1:04:44you'd have a full hour and a half

1:04:45assuming that we

1:04:47>> That's fine with me.

1:04:48>> Okay, let's just do 11:00.

1:04:49>> been our standard length, so I would

1:04:51think that would work and would not

1:04:54inhibit our continuing function, but

1:04:57I'll leave it up to the chair and then

1:04:59jump in at 11:00. Okay.

1:05:01>> I would tell you that Legislative

1:05:02Services has indicated they need 15

1:05:04minutes to turn over the dais. So, that

1:05:06would mean that we'd just need to stop

1:05:08at 10:45 to allow for the turnover to

1:05:1011:00 a.m.

1:05:11>> Or how about we start at 11:15?

1:05:13>> Again, whatever time the committee this

1:05:15committee selects, that's what will go

1:05:17on the subpoena and the notice. I'm just

1:05:19want to make you all aware of kind of

1:05:20the the need for transitioning the dais.

1:05:23>> All right, 11:15 finally and so we're

1:05:24going to be at Saturday morning if we

1:05:26keep on pushing this anymore.

1:05:28>> Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1:05:31>> All right, committee. Anybody else any

1:05:33other questions or clarifications? In a

1:05:35nutshell, finance committee, we have a

1:05:37special finance committee meeting at

1:05:3911:15 now on Friday. I'll trust our JTA

1:05:44liaison will keep us in the loop as to

1:05:46if we hear something different from Mr.

1:05:48Ford. Like I said, I'll do my best to be

1:05:51flexible if there's a time that works

1:05:53better and I do hope that

1:05:55truly goes down the route of being

1:05:57voluntary.

1:05:59Dr. Johnson and then Mr. Pappas.

1:06:03>> Quick question. I know I brought up some

1:06:05of the other people. Can would there be

1:06:06an appetite to include them or is this

1:06:09this would be something we request them

1:06:10to come in the future, Mr. Chair?

1:06:13>> To Dr. Johnson, I

1:06:15are you talking about a potential

1:06:16subpoena for other people or for current

1:06:19and former JTA employees? Who who do you

1:06:21mean by other people?

1:06:22>> The the ones I mentioned in my initial

1:06:24soliloquy, the CFO and the board chair

1:06:26at the time.

1:06:27>> My guess is we do not want to add

1:06:29additional to this meeting cuz I believe

1:06:31there's going to be plenty of questions

1:06:33for Mr. Ford.

1:06:34>> So but we I guess couldn't

1:06:36>> just to clarify, I believe you're asking

1:06:38questions of Mr. Miller's committee, not

1:06:41the special finance committee on the

1:06:42subpoena.

1:06:43>> No, special finance committee cuz I

1:06:44don't have any control over that. We do

1:06:46have control this committee over this,

1:06:48so that's why I'm asking you since you

1:06:50are the one that's supporting this

1:06:51committee would be the one subpoenaing

1:06:53this individual. What we want is the

1:06:55information and as was alluded earlier,

1:06:58the CFO and maybe the board chair

1:07:00because the ultimate decision lies with

1:07:02the board would be additional, but we're

1:07:05saying there's no appetite to we're only

1:07:07want to talk to the CEO. Just want to

1:07:08make sure that that's what I understand.

1:07:09>> At this specific meeting, I have no

1:07:11appetite to bring an additional meeting

1:07:13for what I believe will be an hour

1:07:14meeting.

1:07:15>> Thank you.

1:07:18>> Mr. Pappas.

1:07:20>> Uh just one other thing to make you all

1:07:21aware of in the in the to the extent

1:07:24there's communications that are pending

1:07:25with Mr. Ford,

1:07:27the Sunshine Law Compliance Act requires

1:07:2924 hours at least 24 hours notice of any

1:07:32meeting. Um we like more, so we're

1:07:34obviously we're going to notice that

1:07:35Friday meeting today at that 11:15 time,

1:07:39but we would need to just be sure that

1:07:41whatever communications with Mr. Ford

1:07:42occur. If we need to nail down a

1:07:44different time, we have to have at least

1:07:4524 hours to be able to notice a

1:07:47different time for that day.

1:07:49>> Councilman Diamond.

1:07:50>> Uh through the chair, Mayor. My my my

1:07:52suspicion is if there is an agreement on

1:07:54another time, it's going to be weeks of

1:07:57notice, and there'll be plenty of time.

1:07:58That's my best guess.

1:08:01Uh but if it's Friday, it'll be noticed,

1:08:03and there we go.

1:08:06>> Anything else from anyone up here?

1:08:09All right, we adjourn.

1:10:59>> Mhm.

1:12:40>> Mhm.