2026-10-13 - City Council Work Session

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03:256 2026 city council meeting works.

03:27session meeting. Uh our meetings are

03:29public and you're welcome to join us in

03:31person or by watching from the council

03:33agenda page, Zoom or YouTube. Uh we hope

03:36you continue to join us whichever manner

03:38you feel the most comfortable. This is a

03:40work session meeting during which there

03:42is no public comment. Uh please join us

03:44on October 20th during our 7 p.m. formal

03:47meeting to share your comments. Uh we of

03:49course um welcome your feedback anytime

03:53by mail at PO Box 145476

03:57select city Utah84114.

04:00You can [snorts] also email us at

04:01console.comslc.gov.

04:04You can also uh call us call our 24

04:09uh comment line 8015357654.

04:12Bless you. Um, comments we receive on

04:15agenda topics are shared with council

04:17members and posted on our website

04:20slc.gov/counsel.

04:23We are going to I'm going to adjust a

04:25few of the items of the agenda to get

04:26some business of the city done. I'm

04:29going to move on to the ballpark um item

04:34three. Uh this is an ordinance for a

04:36ballpark soning m amendment text

04:38amendment a followup. So, I'm going to

04:40turn the time uh now to Council Member

04:43Carlson.

04:45>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh council

04:46members, um we have this information in

04:48our briefing packets, but wanted to

04:50bring to your attention uh the zoning

04:52map amendment um which really is this

04:55new information is in response to uh the

04:58updated feedback that we received from

05:00the community. And this amendment would

05:02um ensure about five acres of publicly

05:05accessible open space with a clear

05:07preference for um trees and natural

05:10landscaping as part of that open space.

05:12It also includes um protection for uh

05:16existing trees on the property and some

05:17of the mature trees that are there um as

05:20redevelopment takes place. And so we

05:22will be voting on this uh next Tuesday

05:24at our formal session, but if you have

05:26any questions, happy to answer them. So

05:28really this amendment is really in

05:30response to uh the community feedback

05:32that we we we had.

05:35>> Thank you. Any concerns, questions right

05:37now on this item? Okay. Awesome. Um

05:41moving on to item uh number four. This

05:43is legis legislative action. This is

05:46requesting review of risk management

05:48policies. I'm going to turn the time to

05:49Jennifer Bruno executive director.

05:51>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um this is a

05:53legislative action um requested by um

05:55council members Young and Puy that would

05:57ask um the administration uh in

06:00conjunction with risk management to

06:02evaluate the coverage levels that um are

06:05administered by risk management. Um it

06:08would also ask that risk management

06:10evaluate how they coordinate with

06:11constituents especially in the event of

06:13an emergency. There were a couple of

06:15lessons learned about some recent events

06:17that happened that um exposed some um

06:20issues, especially as it relates to if a

06:23person is a tenant versus if a person is

06:25a property owner. And I think that we

06:26all recognize that there's a need for

06:28both. Um you guys will be voting on this

06:31next week at your formal meeting, so

06:32just take a look at the language and if

06:33you have any proposed edits, feel free

06:35to send them my way.

06:38>> Council member Young.

06:39>> Yes. Um, I just want to be grateful and

06:42clarify that this is not about something

06:45that has gone wrong. This is just about

06:47that we see changes in economics related

06:51to what things cost and we want our

06:54staff to have that opportunity to be

06:56able to bring that knowledge and kind of

06:58what the current circumstances are to

07:00help inform our thresholds of different

07:03levels of administrative review. So, we

07:06appreciate everyone in risk management

07:08bringing those experiences to the table

07:11to help us as council have the

07:13opportunity to maybe make some timely

07:15improvements that ultimately benefit

07:17both the staff as well as the

07:18constituents. So, thank you. Yeah. And

07:21and to add to that comment, I I would

07:23like to um ask, you know, from the

07:26administration uh for, you know, for

07:29their plan to engage with the community

07:31and how they engage with the community

07:32uh so to see if there's potential

07:34improvements on that. So, uh so I I

07:37appreciate the administration looking

07:38into this.

07:40Okay. Um going back to our agenda, um

07:44we're moving on to anformational item.

07:46This is the proposed HF Sinclair

07:48Westline connect project. We're going to

07:51welcome at the table Nick Tarvet,

07:53council deputy director, maybe not at

07:55the table. Um, and then uh HA uh

07:58Sinclair representatives. So there is

08:01five chairs here with five microphones.

08:04So Nick is coming this way

08:08maybe.

08:10>> Yes. Um yes. And then so yes, Nick, it's

08:14your turn.

08:19So, we're going to turn the time, you

08:20know, you know, to you. So, like

08:22whomever, you know, wants to take those

08:24three four seats, you can do that.

08:27[clears throat]

08:45Okay. Sorry about the delay. Um, this is

08:48anformational briefing on a proposed on

08:51a proposal by HF Sinclair regarding the

08:54construction of the West Line Connect

08:56pipeline.

08:58[clears throat]

08:59This is a pipeline that would bring

09:00roughly 35,000 barrels of refined gas in

09:03a pipeline from a refinery in Sinclair,

09:05Wyoming to either storage tanks near the

09:08North Salt Lake refineries or for

09:10transfer to pipelines carrying product

09:13to the regional markets.

09:15The purpose of this briefing is for HF

09:17Sinclair to present their initial

09:19project details and for the council to

09:21ask questions to gain a better

09:23understanding of the project. To be

09:26clear, this is anformational session

09:29only. This council [clears throat] is

09:31not being asked to make any official

09:33decisions tonight, nor is it a time for

09:36public comments. The public can always

09:38share comments with the council anytime

09:40via email, phone, or comments online.

09:44There is a project website that the

09:46public could go to to submit comments.

09:49It is at link.slc.gov/westline

09:56connect. There are also opportunities

09:59during the council's general public

10:01comment periods. The next time is next

10:04Tuesday, October 20th during the 7:00

10:06meeting. By way of background for the

10:09issue, in the 2026 legislative session

10:13in H bill HB3, the budget appropriation

10:16bill, it included intent language that

10:18encouraged political subdivisions who

10:21would be impacted by a proposed pipeline

10:23to work collaboratively with pipeline

10:25sponsors and state agencies in a

10:27coordinated, transparent, and timely

10:30manner with the goal of achieving an

10:31additional 1.4 million gallons per day

10:34of transportation fuels by 2028.

10:38HF Sinclair's approached the city and

10:40other impacted jurisdictions to explore

10:42a potential pipeline route. Based on

10:44those discussions with city staff, we've

10:47outlined key questions and concerns that

10:49we've heard related to the pipeline. The

10:51questions fall under generally four

10:53categories. Drinking water and watershed

10:56protection, environmental seismic risks,

11:00infrastructure safety and and impacts,

11:03and regulatory compliance.

11:05City staff will be taking detailed notes

11:07to track questions and responses and any

11:10future updates

11:12um on potential work sessions will be

11:14posted in advance for the public to see.

11:17We appreciate Sinclair's representatives

11:19being here tonight and we'll turn the

11:20time to them.

11:22>> Nick Nick. Um so just a quick reminder

11:24for for everybody here. Uh this is a

11:28public meeting and we want to keep this

11:30uh this space as a welcoming space for

11:32for anybody. Um and [snorts] you know

11:34regardless whether you agree or disagree

11:36with uh what is the discussion clapping,

11:39cheering, shouting, booing, snapping,

11:41gesturing uh is not allowed. Uh and I

11:44will be uh quite strict about that. So I

11:46will have you removed from the meeting

11:48very quickly. Um so I uh I would like

11:51this uh exchange to be very clear about

11:54you know we want to get you know get

11:56answers and we would like to get

11:58information to the public and on the

12:00record for everybody to to to be able to

12:03have access to this information. Um so

12:06uh I will you know just now now that you

12:09are at the table please state your name

12:11and uh you know let's [clears throat]

12:12let's go through the the the the

12:14questions and see where we end up. Thank

12:16you.

12:17>> Thank you Mr. Chair, if you don't mind,

12:19could I give a fiveminute opening

12:20statement and introduce our uh team

12:22here?

12:22>> Please go ahead.

12:23>> Thank you,

12:27Mr. Chair and council members, thank you

12:28for having me today. My name is Jeremy

12:30Price and I'm the senior manager for

12:32government and public affairs with HF

12:33Sinclair. We appreciate the opportunity

12:35to speak with you today. I'm here to

12:38share more information about our

12:39Westline Connect project, which will

12:41deliver critical fuel to meet the

12:43growing energy demands of the Rocky

12:45Mountain region. While we don't have all

12:47the details finalized just yet, I do

12:50want to share information on what we

12:52know so far and where we are at in the

12:54development process. Before I dive into

12:57that activity and the project, I want to

12:59provide some background on HF Sinclair

13:00for those who might be unfamiliar with

13:02our HF Sinclair owns and operates

13:05refined product pipelines and terminal

13:07assets that support its refining

13:08operations across the mid-continent,

13:11southwest, and northwest regions of the

13:13United States. This existing

13:15infrastructure positions the company to

13:17advance the project safely and

13:19efficiently while maximizing the use of

13:21existing assets where possible.

13:24HF Sinclair is an evolving energy

13:26company with an enduring family of

13:28brands. From refining to midstream to

13:30marketing, we provide traditional and

13:33renewable fuels for planes, trains, and

13:35automobiles plus other essential

13:37products such as asphalt, roofing

13:39materials and components for medicines

13:41and cosmetics.

13:43We have a long history in the Rocky

13:44Mountain region with petroleum

13:45refineries in West Bountiful, Utah,

13:47Casper, Wyoming, Sinclair, Wyoming, and

13:49a renewable diesel refinery in Cheyenne,

13:51Wyoming. The Sinclair Oil Company was

13:54founded in 1916 and was headquartered in

13:56Salt Lake City since 1976.

13:59In 2022, Sinclair merged with

14:01Dallas-based Holly Frontier. We still

14:05maintain a regional corporate office in

14:06downtown Salt Lake City as our footprint

14:09in the Rocky Mountain region has grown

14:11substantially over the last several

14:12years. We are the largest supplier of

14:15fuels to several states in the region

14:17and we are positioned for continued

14:18expansion to meet increasing demand. HF

14:22Sinclair has 2,000 employees in the

14:24Rocky Mountain region. I've asked a few

14:27of my colleagues who are technical

14:28experts in their respective fields to

14:30join me today to provide additional

14:32information on topics such as safety and

14:35emergency response. As we know, these

14:38are top priorities for the community and

14:40the council. Joining me today are Connor

14:43Keaney, emergency preparedness and

14:45response program manager, Drew Spence,

14:49vice president product supply and

14:50trading, and Randy Hall, director for

14:54technical services.

14:56In your briefing materials, you have a

14:58map of the existing Pioneer pipeline,

15:00which is owned by a joint venture

15:01between Philip 66 and HF Sinclair.

15:05It originates in Sinclair, Wyoming, and

15:08terminates at the North Salt Lake

15:10Terminal. Pioneer is a FIRK regulated

15:13interstate pipeline and provides

15:15transportation fuels to the Utah market

15:17and beyond with a throughput capacity of

15:2060,000 barrels per day.

15:22The pipeline is a common carrier line,

15:25meaning anyone can ship on it. Along

15:27with the Salt Lake City refining

15:29complex, Pioneer brings an additional 20

15:31to 25,000 barrels per day of

15:34transportation fuels from refineries in

15:36Wyoming and Montana.

15:39Pioneer is at capacity. The Westland

15:42Connect project will expand the volume

15:43on that line by using existing pipe that

15:46travels south into Summit County from

15:49the existing Pioneer line and adding a

15:51new segment starting in Summit County

15:54through Immigration Canyon and Salt Lake

15:56County into Salt Lake City, eventually

15:58terminating in the North Salt in the

16:00city of North Salt Lake at the existing

16:02terminal.

16:04Before getting into further specifics on

16:07this project, I would like to address

16:08why we are not using the existing

16:10pipeline. Uh

16:14the existing line, as you know, travels

16:16through Morgan County. As you can see

16:18from that map, there are uh a number of

16:22factors that went into why we decided

16:25not to use that route. It was studied

16:27extensively. We looked at multiple

16:29options along that route. Ultimately,

16:32the decision not to proceed was based on

16:35a number of factors, including limited

16:37workspace in the existing corridor,

16:41construction risks, and logistical

16:43challenges.

16:46This line was built in the 1950s.

16:49Specifically, the segment from Cudden to

16:53North Salt Lake uh is the same pipeline

16:57uh 8 in line from the 1950s. The segment

17:00from Cuddon up to Sinclair uh was

17:03replaced and upsized in the early 2000s.

17:06So since the Pioneer line was put in

17:09place, other utilities have been put in

17:12that same corridor. Other pipelines,

17:13other telecommunications lines, that

17:16region is mountainous and challenging

17:19terrain that would require uh advanced

17:23engineering and uh hillside stability

17:26issues. Simply put, there isn't the room

17:30for an additional project and uh we have

17:34determined that the route uh that we

17:37have proposed, no decisions have been

17:39made, no final decisions. It is a

17:42proposed route, but the route we're

17:44looking at today in the other maps that

17:46we provided to you uh are the

17:50more preferable route. It would uh

17:53provide a redundant and resilient supply

17:58to Salt Lake in addition to existing

18:01infrastructure.

18:04Another issue I'd like to address is the

18:08benefits to Salt Lake City and Utah at

18:11large. The Westline Connect project will

18:14provide resiliency to Salt Lake's

18:16transportation fuel system and reduce

18:18price volatility that occurs when demand

18:21exceeds supply. Today, your constituents

18:24are subject to price volatilility to

18:26transportation fuels, especially diesel

18:28fuel, which can lead to higher prices

18:30for goods and materials moved by truck.

18:32Price spikes for transportation fuels

18:34occur when supply becomes tight due to

18:36various factors including refinery

18:38outages for planned and unplanned

18:40maintenance. In the past 12 months,

18:43three separate refineries have undergone

18:45maintenance and with those maintenance

18:49events, supply shortages have occurred

18:52for diesel fuel. And the way the demand

18:55is met in those times of tight supply,

18:59we have to truck or rail diesel fuel

19:01into the Utah market.

19:04When that occurs, when that supply is

19:06tight and the market is volatile, prices

19:10increase. And we estimate those two to

19:13three time, I'm sorry, those three

19:15instances of refinery outages over the

19:17last 12 months. We've had to truck

19:20diesel fuel in for two to three months.

19:23I'm sorry, one to two months. And that

19:26price instability lasts for an

19:27additional 30 days until the market gets

19:30balanced. So what does that mean? That

19:33means during those months prices are

19:36elevated. We estimate somewhere between

19:3830 to 40 cents per gallon until the

19:41market is balanced where supply meets

19:42demand.

19:45Simply put, if this project was built

19:47today, we could feed that supply as well

19:50as anybody else who ships on Pioneer

19:52could meet those supply shortages by

19:54shipping that diesel by pipe instead of

19:57by truck.

19:59Supply tightness also occurs within uh

20:02with jet fuel at Salt Lake City

20:03International Airport. Today, only two

20:06refineries produce jet fuel in the Salt

20:08Lake City region. [snorts]

20:10Jet fuel demand in this region is

20:12expected to grow over the next 5 years.

20:15Sometimes airlines will load planes with

20:16extra fuel to avoid refueling in Salt

20:18Lake, a practice called tankering. And

20:21when Sauling cities in short supply of

20:23jet fuel, additional fuel is moved by

20:26rail from Midwest refineries. And on

20:29occasion, uh, jet fuel can even come by

20:32truck from Las Vegas to meet the demand

20:34shorts, the supply shorts in Salt Lake.

20:39This project would could allow

20:41additional jet volumes to be shipped by

20:44pipe from refineries in not only Wyoming

20:48and Montana, but also potentially

20:50refineries in the Mid-Continent region.

20:54So, simply put, this project could be a

20:57gamecher for Utah.

20:59The last thing I'll say is where are we

21:01in this process? Right now, we are in

21:03the planning stages. We have uh land

21:06agents out in the field conducting

21:08uh uh data analysis and data collection

21:12uh doing survey work to help inform uh

21:15this proposed route. So, we're in the

21:17early stages, but we wanted to come and

21:19and talk with you, brief you, give you

21:21the latest information so uh we can be

21:25as transparent and and uh collaborative

21:27as possible. So, with that, we welcome

21:29any questions you may have.

21:31>> Thank you, Council Member Carlson. Uh,

21:34thank you for that briefing. Um, my

21:36questions are really about the the

21:38proposed timeline that you're operating

21:40under. And so I would really love to

21:42hear a little bit more about when uh in

21:45this proposal actual construction would

21:47begin, how long would construction take

21:50under this proposal and what are the

21:52factors that are motivating the timeline

21:54for this?

21:56>> We expect to I should back up again.

21:59I'll reiterate we're in the early stages

22:01right now. Now we're in the data

22:02collection in the survey gathering

22:04phase. We expect uh to begin

22:08construction in 2028 with a completion

22:10date of 2029.

22:15>> Um with that uh 2028 construction date

22:18that's anticipated, I imagine you have

22:20to pull some federal or state permits.

22:22And I'm wondering where you are in that

22:24process of pulling state and and and and

22:28federal permits that would allow for for

22:30that. um construction to take place.

22:33>> We, as I said, we're in the early

22:35stages, so we don't uh have complete

22:38visibility on exactly where the route's

22:40going to go. And so, uh some permits uh

22:44may or may not be necessary, but we've

22:46uh gone through an extensive uh analysis

22:50of what permits would be required based

22:51on the information we know. Uh typically

22:55if the pipeline pipelines are regulated

22:57interstate pipelines are regulated by

22:59the pipelines and hazard hazardous

23:01material safety administration. They

23:03regulate construction and uh all the

23:05programs associated with uh pipelines.

23:08Uh we expect to uh uh apply for permits

23:13for land use uh and conditional use

23:16permits from local jurisdictions that

23:18the pipeline travels through and then

23:20federal permits for any uh issues that

23:23may impact if if uh the lands go through

23:26US Forest Service. If the pipe goes

23:27through US Forest Service lands there be

23:29other permits if they impact wetlands or

23:31nav water bodies that would require core

23:33of engineer jurisdiction. So I don't

23:36have a total answer on what exact

23:37permits we would need yet but that's the

23:39general process that we would follow.

23:42>> Um to my earlier question about what are

23:44the factors that are motivating this

23:45proposed 2020 construction timeline.

23:49>> I'm going to I'll say one thing I would

23:52say the growing demand for energy in

23:54this region but I'm also going to defer

23:57to uh my colleague Drew Spence to a

23:59little more detail on that. Yeah, as

24:02Jeremy alluded to, I think the growing

24:04demand and demand destruction that's

24:06basically going on in the Midwest, we

24:07see barrels that need to flow west. And

24:09so what this project does is brings, you

24:11know, an incremental 35,000 barrels of

24:14petroleum product into the market, that

24:16would take the volatility out of the

24:18market, as Jeremy alluded to in his

24:19opening remarks, when you have

24:20refineries have either planned or

24:22unplanned issues here in the valley, you

24:25do see these price spikes. And so you

24:26would be able to bring barrels at a

24:28faster clip to take out that volatility

24:30in the market.

24:32Um my uh final question as it relates to

24:35the proposed timeline for this is you

24:37mentioned um that you've begun some

24:39survey work. I'd love to hear a little

24:41bit more about what has been included as

24:43part of that survey work and who have

24:45been the entities you know private

24:47public etc that you've consulted

24:49regarding that survey work.

24:51>> Sure. We have council member we have uh

24:54our survey uh and uh rightaway

24:59uh work is being done by Alabon uh as a

25:03contractor. So we have in-house and

25:05contract staff supporting that effort.

25:07The purpose of the survey work is to uh

25:11identify and gather uh historical

25:15archaeological data, environmental data,

25:18uh constructibility, feasibility,

25:21analysis,

25:23uh and then in terms of uh environmental

25:25permitting, we have in-house staff as

25:28well as contract support from from bar

25:30engineering.

25:32>> I'm sorry, we've lost sound. Okay,

25:34>> just a second. You

25:35>> take a minute.

25:54>> [music]

26:00[music]

26:41[music]

26:57[music]

27:00>> You know that we We have a um we have a

27:03lot of moving parts in our side between

27:05uh SLCTV, Zoom for all those that are

27:07online to make sure that we also uh keep

27:10our uh recording uh in check for you

27:13know um open meetings act um you know

27:17and we also people watching from SLCTV

27:20and all of these other tools and this is

27:23a very old building uh on top of that so

27:25it makes it sometimes a little shaky. So

27:28um any follow-ups to that? Okay. I so

27:31you mentioned that you know you compare

27:34uh this this uh proposed alignment with

27:36other potential alignments and you you

27:39talked about advanced engineering all of

27:41these uh barriers to to a different

27:44alignment that make it so this proposed

27:47in front of us is a better one to

27:50basically to for you. Um so I I was just

27:53trying to like uh you know will that be

27:56a fair summary uh of of that portion? Uh

27:59I I would add it's not only better for

28:01us. We think it's better for the public

28:03as well to utilize existing corridors uh

28:07along the route that that we're uh we've

28:09proposed in the maps before you.

28:11>> But but the older alignment there is a

28:13pipeline through that one too.

28:15>> There are a number of uh other utilities

28:16in that same uh corridor. Correct.

28:18>> Okay. So how was that for for that point

28:22though? like those are like in so many

28:25ways there isn't there is a pipeline in

28:27that in the other route there is a

28:30pipeline in this route as well. So to to

28:32your point how is how do you measure

28:34which one is best? Uh a number of

28:37factors go into the the feasibility

28:39study but ultimately the uh collection

28:44of geohhazards so inst soil instability

28:48uh hillside retention uh required along

28:51the existing route uh the very limited

28:54workspace within those conditions would

28:57be extremely challenging. As you're

28:58aware, the Weber River uh is is through

29:02that same area near I80 or I 84. Uh

29:08ultimately, our folks took hard serious

29:12analysis at the potential of using that

29:15route and deemed that this is preferable

29:18in terms of safety, in terms of

29:20logistics and engineering and

29:22constructibility.

29:24>> Yeah. So when you were making this uh

29:26when when your staff was working through

29:28uh through um these alignments and

29:31comparing them and trying to figure out

29:32which one was better, you probably know

29:34that we have a groundwater protection

29:36overlay zone in Salt Lake City, you

29:38know, and you know, all of this area and

29:40the recharge zone for water. Um you

29:43know, this pipe this proposed pipeline

29:46will go through that area. Is that

29:47correct?

29:49The proposed pipeline does go through uh

29:53recharge areas as in the maps that we've

29:56provided to you. We wanted to, you know,

29:59be transparent and and and open and and

30:02collaborative uh in this effort. Uh the

30:05the map and the the three maps that you

30:08have include the uh watershed areas that

30:13Salt Lake City has extr territorial

30:15powers over in Salt Lake County. uh as

30:18well as down into from uh uh Salt Lake

30:20County into Salt Lake City. [snorts] Uh

30:24ultimately we uh strongly believe that

30:29we can do this project safely,

30:32responsibly and reliably reliably

30:35and using the best practices and

30:40standards in today's uh uh federal

30:43requirements and industry standards, we

30:46can protect uh Salt Lake City's drinking

30:48water sources with this project.

30:50>> Yeah. And ultimately I I I don't doubt

30:53that you don't want your pipeline to

30:54break as much as we don't want it like

30:56that that this not good for you is not

30:58good for anybody. But but my my my

31:01questioning or like trying what trying

31:03to understand is when you when you were

31:07comparing one alignment versus the this

31:10alignment that goes through Salt Lake.

31:12Um [snorts]

31:13and you mentioned you know certainly you

31:16have very good experts in your in your

31:17team that tells you you know there is a

31:19significant amount of work there's you

31:21know complex engineering and uh you know

31:24it's there's not a lot of space you know

31:26the we potentially it seems to me we're

31:29talking about cost you know there's it's

31:31very costly to build it where you know

31:33in the other alignment. Do you take in

31:35consideration the the water uh you know

31:39the groundwater protection overlay zone

31:41when comparing these two alignments at

31:43all?

31:44We we look at all factors. Uh I'm

31:48looking at my uh colleague Randy may

31:51jump in uh here after I give a quick

31:54thought and and that is we we look at

31:56all factors environmental issues. The

31:59the route through Weber Canyon has a

32:02host of environmental issues as well. As

32:04I said, that that line was put in there

32:06in in 1950s and uh you've had lots of

32:11residential and development that have

32:13occurred uh even from the mouth of the

32:15canyon uh out into residential areas.

32:18There's large walls of communities have

32:19been built up. Uh this wasn't a decision

32:22that we made lightly. This was a

32:24decision that was studied extensively

32:26and we again we believe we can do this

32:29safely. We can protect drinking water

32:31sources. We will use the best industry

32:34standards and uh we would like to

32:38collaborate with you to ensure that you

32:40feel at ease that you are comfortable

32:42with with what we're doing as well.

32:43We've had conversations with uh state

32:46regulators. We we've talked with DEEQ

32:48and we uh can can meet and exceed uh

32:54state requirements to demonstrate that

32:57uh that that protection will be put in

33:00place. FEMA, the federal regulator, the

33:03Pipeline Hazardous Material Safety

33:04Administration, uh requires heightened

33:08regulations and requirements for

33:10pipelines in areas near drinking water

33:12sources. It's referred to as high

33:13consequence areas. Again, Randy is an

33:16expert in this. Uh, if you care to ask

33:18any questions about that those those uh

33:21regulations

33:22>> and I appreciate that you you're willing

33:24to answer these questions. I I also, you

33:26know, would love, you know, if you're if

33:28you're willing if if you know, this is a

33:30it certainly is a very complex, you

33:32know, complex decision, uh, and trying

33:35to understand all of different variables

33:37that, you know, influence, uh, your

33:39decision on which one is a prefer, you

33:41know, route versus a different one. But

33:44sharing some of that information for us,

33:46you know, why, you know, why not this

33:48other one will be very useful uh for our

33:51city. So, you know, I if it's just not a

33:54cost, if if if it's goes beyond just

33:57cost, I think it having that uh

33:59accessible to us will be very very

34:01useful.

34:02>> I I appreciate the the Did you you want

34:04to jump in, Randy? Is that okay?

34:06>> Yeah. Go ahead, [clears throat]

34:07>> Mike.

34:09the the federal regulations around um

34:11what we call the pipeline integrity

34:12management rule um defines high

34:15consequence areas for pipeline

34:17operators.

34:18>> Closer.

34:19>> That better.

34:20>> Yeah. So the integrity management rule

34:22within the pipeline federal pipeline

34:24regulation defines high consequence

34:26areas for us and those include things

34:27like high populated areas,

34:29environmentally sensitive areas, um

34:32municipal water intakes and and things

34:34like the the aquafer that you're

34:35questioning about now. um taken as a

34:38whole. If you look at the original

34:40Pioneer route down Weber Canyon um

34:43turning down Highway 89 um versus the

34:46route coming down Immigration Canyon, we

34:49feel that the route we've selected is

34:51less impactful in terms of the high

34:54consequence areas as defined by the

34:56federal government.

34:58Council Warden.

35:00>> Yeah. I just want to to

35:04um

35:06push back on that a little bit because

35:09looking at the map um just

35:14from what I can see from the one of the

35:16maps that you provided, the pipeline

35:18would go through

35:20almost every neighborhood in my district

35:23from Federal Heights to Swede Town. It

35:25would actually go under the street that

35:27I live on. It would go through five

35:29parks, including the one where my

35:31daughter plays. It would go through the

35:33park that serves as the state's memorial

35:35for fallen soldiers. It would go through

35:39um the It would go past a children's

35:41hospital, through a watershed area, two

35:45sacred Native American sites. It would

35:47go past the Salt Lake City Cemetery,

35:49which is about to become a national

35:50historic site. Uh, it would go

35:53underneath City Creek, which provides

35:55all of the water to downtown and to the

35:57state capital complex.

36:00I am having a hard time thinking of a

36:03route that would hit more consequential

36:07sites than that.

36:10>> Let me uh respond to that, council

36:12member. First, I understand your

36:14concerns and uh we want to work with you

36:17and and collaborate with all the council

36:19members. Uh we engaged with Salt Lake

36:23City staff early on. We proposed a

36:26number of route alternatives through

36:28Salt Lake City. We're happy to have

36:31those conversations with you as well. Uh

36:34we're looking to collaborate. Uh no no

36:37final decisions have been made on a

36:39route. Uh so if there's uh feedback you

36:42you'd like us to have, we're welcome to

36:44to receiving that.

36:47There is um and uh I would like to know

36:52like the the current route that comes

36:54through Morgan County um how many

36:57neighborhoods does that go through and

36:59how many parks and how many hospitals

37:03does that go through currently?

37:06>> I don't have that number but I can tell

37:08you that we studied these routes

37:10extensively and the router limits the

37:14impact to the public and the

37:15environment.

37:16Okay. And

37:20so the Pioneer pipeline

37:23um is approximately 246 miles long. And

37:27how long will the connection to the West

37:29Line

37:31connect be?

37:33>> Do you know that answer?

37:34>> It's about 268.

37:37>> Rainy's uh mic on. Go ahead. Sorry. I

37:39got it.

37:40>> So So it's actually a longer route.

37:44>> It's a little bit longer route. Yeah.

37:45Um, most of that mileage is back in

37:47Wyoming where we connect to the 12-in

37:50Pioneer system as is and then work work

37:53down existing pipeline corridors uh

37:56through Kimell Junction and on into the

37:58valley.

38:02>> Okay.

38:03>> I I I can assure you though, council

38:04member, I hear your concerns. Um, I can

38:07assure you we we we didn't weigh uh

38:10routes based on mileage or or or uh you

38:15know cost and and these things. We look

38:17at a many factors. Engineering and

38:20constructibility, our ability to build

38:21the project safely, our ability to

38:23access uh that pipe when maintenance

38:26needs arise. Uh there are a whole host

38:28of issues that go into this. We we

38:30wouldn't have we we didn't come to this

38:32conclusion without giving it a great

38:35deal of study and attention and we're

38:36happy to bring in uh some additional

38:39staff from uh that section of the

38:42business to to help you understand that

38:44if if that would be necessary or

38:46appropriate.

38:46>> Did you consider these sites that I

38:48named off?

38:51>> I'm sorry. the these sites that it would

38:53go through that I named off the

38:54children's hospital, the state capital,

38:56the city creek watershed, Native

39:00American sites,

39:02>> the the the route, excuse

39:04[clears throat] me, the route uh follows

39:06for the most part existing pipeline

39:09corridors where oil pipelines already

39:11exist. That uh was the least impactful

39:15uh route to take from our perspective.

39:18Do you know when those pip when which

39:21route which pipeline would it follow and

39:23do you know when that was constructed?

39:25>> The Chevron pipelines are the section of

39:27the route you're referring to and they

39:29are 1950s era and that's the same

39:33pipeline that had a leak.

39:37>> That's correct.

39:39um that you you know I appreciate you

39:41you you know offering some more details

39:43on this you know getting to the bottom

39:46of like understanding how your process

39:49you know to decide you know sharing some

39:51of those studies uh will be a great deal

39:54of information to us uh it will really

39:57help us understand how you make those

39:59decisions um and you know we don't have

40:02a process for for this in select city

40:04right like we since we're talking right

40:06uh we don't have a process that the

40:08author authorizes this. So, I think that

40:10the more information is the better at

40:12this point.

40:13>> We're we're committed to engaging with

40:14you and we we've met with every local

40:17stakeholder local government stakeholder

40:18along this proposed route and we're

40:20committed to meeting with you and anyone

40:22who else to to talk with us and

40:24collaborate on a path forward.

40:25>> Yeah. And it goes beyond I appreciate

40:27that and you know you know our our city

40:29staff has been you know regularly

40:31meeting with you trying to like you know

40:33uh understand the proposal understand

40:36you know the routes uh and how could

40:39they interact with you know all of the

40:41things that we are responsible for as a

40:43municipality. So uh again some of more

40:46detail on the information side of of uh

40:49those studies that you would you know

40:51put together that would be very useful

40:53council member Dugan.

40:55Thank you. I appreciate that. I

40:56appreciate you spending time with us and

40:58and the questions we've been asked so

40:59far. And some of mine may dovetail into

41:02other questions that have already been

41:03uh asked now. And I'm going to touch on

41:06just a few of the regatory stuff and

41:08then more on the groundwater and the uh

41:10the uh surface water concerns and the

41:13construction side. And so you you

41:15mentioned all the federal and state

41:17regulations that you have to abide by

41:19and and how do they stack up and and uh

41:22when you have to abide by that. Is it

41:25individual requirements that you have to

41:27meet from each one and and permitting

41:29for that on the on the federal level and

41:31the state level and uh so you have the

41:34the pipeline regulations and safety

41:37there. You have uh environmental

41:39requirements, state requirements,

41:41groundwater requirements. Can you kind

41:42of stack those through and who they are

41:44and how they uh uh

41:49uh are working and you work with them to

41:52to make this thing uh safe? Well, the

41:55first process and I may look to to Randy

41:57for additional. The first process is

42:01getting input from stakeholders from uh

42:05property owners near or adjacent or

42:08along the proposed route. uh collecting

42:11that survey data that I referenced

42:13initially. Once the route uh is

42:17determined,

42:19uh you [clears throat] begin that

42:21process of applying for conditional use

42:23permits through the various regulatory

42:26bodies uh in the uh subsequent

42:29jurisdictions. Meanwhile, the

42:30environmental staff is uh doing all the

42:34work uh that consists of uh the

42:36permitting processes for any impacts to

42:39the environment or to to water to uh uh

42:44habitat. So they are uh concurrent but

42:47again we're in the early stages of this

42:49process until you know exactly where the

42:51routes go and which property owner

42:54whether it's the federal government or

42:56state or park you know that determines

43:00what additional requirements are

43:01necessary. So it's a it's a bit

43:03premature to say exactly what the

43:05process will be for us but but generally

43:07that's the process that it follows.

43:09Randy did you want anything that I

43:10missed there?

43:12No, [clears throat] you'd asked about

43:14layers of

43:15>> Yes, you have layers. Yes.

43:17>> So, there's there's the land use layer

43:20in my mind, right? So, that would be

43:22federal land, uh, BLM or forest service,

43:25um, municipalities such as the city of

43:27Salt Lake, private land owners. Um,

43:29there would be um environmental permits,

43:32um, core of engineers on on wetlands.

43:35Um, there'll be a number of crossing

43:36permits for roads, highways, railroads,

43:39those kinds of things. Um so once we

43:42once we make a more definitive route

43:44selection we've been we begin the

43:46process um you know from the land use

43:48aspect construction aspect um did you

43:52mention runoff

43:54>> I haven't well I will

43:55>> okay

43:57I'm going to get to that one that point

43:59in a second here but so on the

44:00regulation side of the house you have

44:02you know when we do constructions we

44:04have uh environmental analysis and

44:06environmental impact statements that

44:08require you know studies there and then

44:11uh require a uh a finding from the

44:14federal government and the state

44:15government and those take some process

44:17time. Uh is that all public when this

44:19comes through and we'll all be able to

44:21to read those the the the study and who

44:24conducts those studies and uh um or are

44:28you willing to be sharing those with the

44:30public on those on those environmental

44:31studies that that take place?

44:33>> I I just reiterate again we're we're in

44:35the early stages. I can't tell you if if

44:37you know an environmental assessment or

44:39EIS will be required because we don't

44:41know yet what the exact route will be.

44:43Once those decisions are made, we'll

44:45have better visibility on what the

44:47specific uh permits will be necessary.

44:50And at every opportunity where uh public

44:53engagement uh is is required in state

44:57and federal federal and local

44:59regulations, we will be there to to uh

45:02present uh on uh comments to those

45:07particular permits. But beyond just the

45:10permitting, we are committed to engaging

45:13with the public early. We don't think

45:15that the public should be waiting till a

45:17permit application to to tell us what

45:19they think. We've got a website up

45:21today. We have dedicated uh email

45:23address and information out there and

45:26opportunities for public engagement.

45:27Now, you can go to westlandconnect.com

45:29today and and send us a a comment. U so

45:33we we're committed to that public

45:35process regardless of whatever necessary

45:37permits are are required.

45:38>> Okay, great. And I'm going to kind of

45:39walk through where the uh and give me uh

45:44a second here to ex walk through the the

45:46pipeline as I see fit and then the

45:49impact to building the pipeline to the

45:52water uh supply system while under

45:55construction not while actually gasoline

45:58is flowing through the pipeline. So you

46:00you come across, you know, you come

46:02across Parley's, you cross Parley's

46:04Creek, you go just below the Little Dell

46:06Reservoir, just just above the treatment

46:09plant, just in between Little Dell and

46:11Mountain Dell reservoirs, you cross over

46:13to immigration, you go down immigration,

46:15then you follow the the uh the pipeline

46:18through immigration. It's a steep slope.

46:21Uh it's not a great slope either w-wise.

46:23I mean, the Chevron's there also. We've

46:25had some issues with that. It crosses

46:27the creek again. It grows into the

46:29neighborhoods goes and then now that

46:31water source all that water where the

46:33creek is is going into the immigration

46:35creek which goes to the zoo goes through

46:37the parks goes through the neighborhoods

46:39and then goes out to the Jordan River

46:40and then into the Great Salt Lake and

46:42then the uh after that portion it turns

46:45in goes into Chris's neighborhoods and

46:47then all that uh groundwater if you were

46:51a drop of water up or a drop of gasoline

46:53there it's all going to go flow flow

46:55downhill into the neighborhoods into the

46:57streams and in in into the uh into the

47:00city and into the water source. So

47:01that's just the flow of the water and

47:03you all know that we're all kind of

47:05aware of that at this point. So during

47:07the construction process, how do we

47:09mitigate the uh impact to the

47:11groundwater because we're going to be uh

47:14burying the I'm assuming we're burying

47:16the uh pipelines the whole way across

47:19all these water sources. How deep does

47:21the pipeline go? uh the the dirt that's

47:25been replaced or misplaced

47:28uh uh the runoff and the um I would say

47:31the uh the flow of water as if it's

47:35raining there and and the debris going

47:37into our into our water source, how's

47:39that protected and how's while in the

47:41construction site. I haven't talked

47:42about the when the pipeline's built, but

47:44just in the construction portion of it

47:46and that environmental impact we have in

47:47our groundwater source because we have

47:50multiple areas where it's going to

47:51impact a lot of people. And I'm just

47:52talking safety, health, and the and the

47:55economy of the of the city. So, kind of

47:57going to step through that.

47:58>> Let me give a quick comment and then

48:00turn to to Randy first. Let me say I I

48:03hear your concerns and and we take them

48:05seriously. HF Sinclair employs

48:09bestinclass industry practices when it

48:12comes to development of our midstream

48:14assets.

48:16We are committed to doing this safely,

48:20responsibly, and reliably.

48:22Uh in terms of the specifics uh to your

48:26question, we're going to look to uh uh

48:30minimize impacts wherever we can. will

48:33utilize hor horizontal directional

48:34drilling where it's appropriate uh

48:37around environmental concerns and in

48:40terms of uh uh restoration of the

48:44landscape uh we will restore the

48:46landscape to its original condition

48:48after we're done. But beyond that,

48:51Randy, you have anything to add to that?

48:53>> I'm glad you mentioned horizontal

48:55direction drilling. So the water courses

48:57you mentioned when we're in construction

48:58would be crossed by horizontal

49:00directional drilling. will drill down

49:02under those things. You asked about

49:04depth that will kind of hinge on our

49:06final route selection and engineering

49:08design at the time. Um

49:11so the the surface creeks and such um

49:15are not impacted. In terms of storm

49:17water runoff, we will have to have a

49:19storm water um pollution prevention

49:22plan. We call it a SWIP. Um that'll be a

49:26a state function. uh that'll dictate

49:28things like silt fence and you know

49:31areas of uh mitigation for storm water

49:35that wouldn't run off the construction

49:37site just like any other construction

49:38site. Yeah. Yeah. I I I understand any

49:42construction site but this is uh a

49:44construction site that we usually talk

49:45about is you know uh I won't say flat

49:49but relatively one location. We're

49:52talking across multiple miles. You know,

49:54I'm not talking about the 600 mile or

49:57200 miles outside of our water uh

50:01overlay, but the from the top of the

50:04parley's down to Chris's neighborhood

50:08and all that water and uh impact to the

50:11groundwater during that construction

50:13side of the house. And that's that's my

50:15concern on that side of the house. And I

50:17understand you wouldn't be in your

50:19position right now unless you were good

50:21at your job. I'm just saying that back

50:23to the qual about high consequences

50:26risk. I see this as a high consequence

50:29risk for the 50 mi that goes through our

50:32neighborhoods every inch of the way and

50:34that each drop of that uh fuel has an

50:38impact on our on our livelihood and our

50:41businesses. So that's that's my one

50:43saying. So I I I

50:47understand their position here, but I

50:48would like to more details on how we uh

50:52mitigate those impacts there on the

50:53construction site. I'm going to get to

50:54the questions about the pipeline here in

50:56a second.

50:56>> Will you will you give me a second? Uh

50:58do you finish this thought? Okay.

50:59>> Let them answer then you Sorry.

51:03>> I appreciate your concerns, council

51:04member. We take those concerns to heart.

51:07We take safety very seriously. We have a

51:11motto in our company we refer to as goal

51:13zero. It's not just a motto. It is a

51:15corporate culture. If we can't do it

51:18safely, we don't do it at all. So, we we

51:20hear your concerns and we'd like to come

51:23back to you as the project progresses.

51:25Again, we're in the very early stages.

51:27Uh so, uh as the project progresses,

51:30we'd like to come back and and keep you

51:31informed and brief you on the latest.

51:33>> Okay, great. Go ahead. And I have some

51:35questions about some uh pipeline stuff.

51:36>> Council member Young.

51:39Um, okay. So, to to the statement you

51:45just made, um, I think it's important

51:48for the residents of Salt Lake as well

51:50as my fellow council members to have

51:52clarity on HFS and Claire's documented

51:56pipeline spills and enforcement history.

51:58So, what I'm asking for is incident

52:00dates, locations, volumes released,

52:02environmental impacts, penalties, and

52:04remediation status. I appreciate you

52:07have a goal, but you also have a history

52:10and that history plays into the risks

52:12that we are looking at here as a city

52:14and that's information that I think

52:16needs to be transparent for the folks

52:18who are considering this in terms of

52:21being in their backyard. In addition to

52:24that, you mentioned um price volatility

52:27in diesel. It's it I I guess my question

52:31is how many pipelines and refineries are

52:34currently contributing to that cost in

52:36the landscape here in Salt Lake City?

52:41>> Is the question who makes diesel fuel in

52:43the state? Is that what you're

52:44>> No, I'm just trying to get a sense.

52:45You're saying this pipeline is going to

52:47help in that? I'm trying to get an

52:49understanding of the ecosystem that

52:51currently contributes to the pricing

52:53structure of diesel.

52:54>> Okay, Drew, you want to take that one?

52:56Well, I think what creates the

52:58volatility is the refineries that

53:00operate in Salt Lake City. So, the as

53:03Jeremy alluded to in his opening

53:05remarks, the Pioneer pipeline today is

53:07at capacity day in day out. But what

53:10creates the volatility is when you have

53:11either planned or unplanned upsets here

53:14in the valley on one of the local

53:16refineries. So to add to his point, so

53:19the refineries here in Salt Lake make

53:21fuel for this market and adjacent

53:24markets, Idaho, Nevada, Washington. The

53:27supply for fuel for Utah comes from not

53:31just the refineries in Salt Lake, but

53:32from the Pioneer pipeline. 20 to 20 to

53:3525,000 barrels a day of transport fuels

53:38comes to Utah and the Salt Lake City

53:39market via the Pioneer line today. So,

53:42in terms of then the reference to the

53:46fact that there were three different

53:47periods of disruption, um, again, I'm

53:51interested in knowing those specific

53:52costs because again, you're asking us to

53:55balance the potential economic benefit

53:57against the risks that are there. And so

54:00I think there needs to be additional

54:02information and transparency about what

54:04those disruptions were related to some

54:07of the potential risks and cost of

54:09remediation that are being considered.

54:12You also mentioned the cost of goods

54:13increases and I would also like to see

54:16how goods prices were increased related

54:18to Salt Lake City residents during those

54:20disruption times because I think that

54:23evidence to support those claims is

54:25again an important part of supporting

54:27the arguments and the statements that

54:29are being made. Um lastly, you mentioned

54:32Jew jet fuel shortages and you said

54:34could ship. I'm curious about the word

54:36could. Can you help me understand how

54:38that relates to the proposal? We say

54:41could because market dynamics determine

54:43exactly what is shipped at a given time.

54:46But uh Drew, do you want to add to that?

54:48>> Yeah, I mean energy markets are pretty

54:49efficient, right? So if there there is a

54:51short here in Salt Lake City, typically

54:53you start seeing jet fuel in the

54:55summertime gets extremely short and

54:56there's not enough producers producing

54:58jet fuel to fill the needs of the Salt

55:01Lake City airport. So what happens as

55:03Jeremy alluded to in his opening remarks

55:05is we see from time to time barrels are

55:07imported from Asia into California,

55:09shipped on the Calv pipeline to Las

55:10Vegas and then trucked all the way to

55:12Salt Lake City to help fill that void

55:15where ultimately our project is taking

55:17trucks off the road. We we used 2500

55:21truckloads of diesel fuel to meet Utah

55:24demand from refineries in Wyoming.

55:27That's 2500 trucks over the year. 21

55:29million gallons of diesel that we could

55:31put in a pipe and and fill that supply

55:33shortage in Utah if this project were

55:35complete.

55:36>> And I appreciate that. And I'm not here

55:38to contest that having an additional

55:40deliver mechanism would help within that

55:43space. Um what I would like is to see

55:46again more of the evidence that backs up

55:48some of these claims to be able to

55:50better understand what that ecosystem

55:53play is related to some of these

55:55questions. And then ultimately for me it

55:58it I will echo the statements from my

56:01fellow council members. Having another

56:03pipeline doesn't mean another pipeline

56:05that comes through Salt Lake City. And

56:07that's where I think that you know

56:09there's still information that has been

56:12requested by my fellow council members

56:14um that I would need to see in terms of

56:17understanding why this is the best.

56:19There was a reference to that there's

56:21more residential along the pioneer

56:23pipeline. you are speaking to the

56:25capital city who has the most

56:28individuals like per per square foot

56:30that we're looking at in the area. So

56:33that that comparison is lacking for me.

56:36And again, I I just have a really hard

56:39time understanding that this is the best

56:41and only route related to the proposal

56:44and the potential benefits that could be

56:46reaped in that space versus the risks we

56:48would potentially incur. I'll pass it

56:50back over.

56:51>> Yeah. So there is uh there's a few you

56:54know we're you know it seems like we're

56:57getting warmer um and uh it it's good.

57:00So there is a few questions that were

57:02popped from that conversation and I'm

57:04going to entertain. So Council Member

57:06Carlson and then Council Member Warden.

57:07>> Uh thank you Council Member Young for

57:09your questions. I think my question

57:10really builds on uh what's beneath

57:13Council Member Young's statements around

57:16the the prices that would be affected or

57:18the claims that you're making in regards

57:20to the price drop that would happen.

57:22Earlier you talked about there could be

57:23an impact of 30 to 40 cents per gallon.

57:26Can you confirm that that's for the Salt

57:28Lake City market? And can you confirm

57:30that what that will be a price that will

57:32stay over time with this proposed

57:34pipeline?

57:37I mean, we could we can get you some

57:38data around that on what we saw prices

57:40do when there was unplanned and planned

57:42downtime in the Salt Lake City Valley.

57:44What I would tell you is just increase

57:46of supply, simple supply and demand

57:48economics, right? It's going to push

57:50prices lower. So, you're going to get an

57:51incremental 35,000 barrels a day into

57:54the Salt Lake City market. Ultimately,

57:56you should see prices

57:58>> and

57:59>> to follow up with that, that will

58:00benefit Salt Lake City Market.

58:02>> That's correct. Council Warden. Um I

58:06>> I want to quickly elaborate too uh uh

58:08council member Utah is really in a great

58:10position. If you look at other states

58:12they don't have the luxury of increasing

58:15the availability

58:17the ability to import more supply to

58:20meet. If you take a state like

58:21California there are no pipes feeding

58:24the California market. So when there's a

58:25supply short because of a refinery

58:27outage they have to fill that supply by

58:29tanker uh from other markets oftentimes

58:32from Asia. We are here with a real world

58:34uh market solution to to fill those

58:37needs in Utah and it's a great

58:38opportunity for Utons.

58:43>> Yeah. I wanted to to ask about two

58:46things that that two tangents one that

58:50just came up. So, ho how much of this is

58:53intended for the Utah market and how

58:56much is intended to go on to

58:58uh

59:00the other parts of the let's see western

59:04gateway

59:06that would go to Arizona and California.

59:08So, Sinclair is signed on to that is

59:11>> barrels could move sorry to interrupt

59:13barrels could move to Las Vegas via our

59:15UNV pipeline which runs from Salt Lake

59:17City to Las Vegas.

59:18>> Okay. What I would say today is the

59:20pipeline that runs which is the

59:22Northwest product system. It's at

59:24capacity 2 leaving Salt Lake City.

59:26There's no refineries in Nevada. There's

59:28no refineries in Idaho. So the barrels

59:30need to be sourced either from Salt Lake

59:32City or from Wyoming or the Midwestern

59:34states. Our view is we think barrels are

59:37going to flow from the Midwestern

59:38states, reverse a pipeline from Denver,

59:41Colorado into Sinclair, Wyoming to allow

59:44cheaper supply of gasoline to get into

59:46the state of Utah. But then it would

59:49also go to al Arizona, California,

59:51>> Arizona. The pipeline stops in Las

59:53Vegas.

59:54>> You're thinking of the Western Gateway.

59:55That's another pipeline project from the

59:57midcontinent to through El Paso to

59:59Arizona. This project opens up markets

1:00:03for refineries in the Rockies as well as

1:00:06the mid-continent region.

1:00:07>> There's no plan for this line uh to go

1:00:12past Salt Lake City. would serve salt

1:00:14Utah, Salt Lake City only and it

1:00:16wouldn't go any further than that.

1:00:17>> I would say molecules if there's a need

1:00:19for molecules in Las Vegas, yes,

1:00:21molecules could flow, but all of the

1:00:23barrels would come into tank here in

1:00:25this state of Utah.

1:00:27>> Okay. Because it in the press release

1:00:31about the western um gateway, it seemed

1:00:34like this was also part of um providing

1:00:39oil to that market as well. So, does

1:00:40that not connect the one that you were

1:00:43referring to that goes through El Paso?

1:00:44Does that not connect to Vegas?

1:00:46>> It does.

1:00:46>> Oh, it does.

1:00:47>> Yes.

1:00:48>> Okay. Um Okay. The other question that

1:00:51you had was or the other

1:00:55I mean this is a really sincere

1:00:56question. I I don't mean it as um

1:01:00mocking or anything like that, but you

1:01:02did say that you have like the highest

1:01:03standards and you hold your your company

1:01:05to those standards. that there was an

1:01:08oil spill in Denver this year. Is that

1:01:11right? An oil leak of a Sinclair

1:01:14pipeline.

1:01:17>> I am not sure of that specific instance

1:01:20you're referring to, but I can tell you

1:01:23that again, we're committed to moving

1:01:26hydrocarbons in the safest and most

1:01:28responsible and reliable way, which is

1:01:31bype. It is the safest way to move

1:01:33hydrocarbons. This one says it was a

1:01:35human error. It's KDVR in Denver saying

1:01:39that in January of 2026

1:01:42um a Sinclair employee accidentally left

1:01:44a valve open.

1:01:46>> So I can I don't think that was a spill.

1:01:50I think that was a product quality

1:01:51incident. Okay. in Denver where a diesel

1:01:55either diesel or gasoline tank the valve

1:01:59was not aligned properly and so gas

1:02:02stations were getting contaminated fuel

1:02:05but it was not a spill.

1:02:07>> Okay.

1:02:08>> Is the that's the only thing that I know

1:02:10that's happened in Denver and generally

1:02:12I

1:02:13>> hear about

1:02:15>> okay. So how much damage did that cause?

1:02:22I can't comment to how much damage it

1:02:24caused, but I can tell you that anytime

1:02:26there's any instant, whether it's

1:02:28product quality or a spill or an upset

1:02:31at a refinery, it's it's

1:02:36we never want those situations to

1:02:37happen.

1:02:38>> We never want them to happen. We want

1:02:40everyone to go home safely every day. We

1:02:42want our products to be moved safely and

1:02:44the impact to the environment and the

1:02:46public uh to to be minimal. Uh uh so

1:02:53any incident that that you may have uh

1:02:56in your mind uh that you've referenced

1:02:58earlier today every incident we we never

1:03:01want it to happen. Anytime there is an

1:03:03incident though, industry joins together

1:03:07typically with the American Petroleum

1:03:09Institute and our peers to conduct root

1:03:12cause analysis, determine the cause of

1:03:14any issue and to address those uh those

1:03:18deficiencies with uh improvements and

1:03:23standards and practices so we can

1:03:25prevent reoccurrence uh from happening

1:03:27again. No, I I believe that and I I

1:03:30believe that you you know, nobody wants

1:03:33things like this to happen. It's it's

1:03:35you nobody benefits from that, but they

1:03:37do happen. And the Denver example uh

1:03:42looks like there was a uh 365,000

1:03:48or umund thou $36,500,000

1:03:52fine. But then there was also a leak in

1:03:55Tulsa, Oklahoma in 2022.

1:03:59Um, there was another leak in 2016.

1:04:03So, I mean, I guess what I'm saying is

1:04:06that even though we can be have the best

1:04:10intentions and the best safety metrics

1:04:12in place, but these leaks have happened

1:04:16and they've had this, you know, pretty

1:04:18serious impact on these communities. So

1:04:20I I don't want to give the impression to

1:04:24people that are listening that these

1:04:26things are infallible.

1:04:29>> I would I would add to to that that

1:04:33technology has changed uh tremendously.

1:04:36Uh Randy can speak to this January

1:04:38>> since since uh the incident that

1:04:41occurred uh here in Salt Lake. I'm not

1:04:44sure exactly what incident you're you're

1:04:46referring to, but uh let me let Randy

1:04:50jump in just leave you with one quick

1:04:52thought and that is

1:04:55we are committed to doing this safely,

1:04:57responsibly and reliably and we are

1:05:00prepared to to demonstrate to you the

1:05:02progress that industry has made in terms

1:05:05of uh leak detection safety uh integrity

1:05:09monitoring and all these things. Randy,

1:05:12>> to be clear, the event in Denver in

1:05:15January was product quality. Nothing hit

1:05:16the ground. Um, we had a valve alignment

1:05:20um, go bad at one of our terminals. We

1:05:22put some contaminated fuel into the

1:05:24marketplace to retail stations. Our

1:05:26reaction there was to pull that

1:05:28contaminated fuel back, clean those

1:05:30people's tanks out, replace it with good

1:05:31fuel. Um

1:05:34the the $365,000

1:05:37fine you mentioned was uh state of

1:05:39Colorado assessed that um based on the

1:05:42the volume of of fuel that went out to

1:05:46those retail locations.

1:05:48>> Okay.

1:05:49>> Now steps we've taken there is we've

1:05:52automated some of those valve swings at

1:05:54Denver. So now it's not entirely relying

1:05:58on one individual. There's couple sets

1:06:00of eyes on those. I I want to turn the

1:06:03time uh to council member Dugan, but I I

1:06:06do want to you know there is something

1:06:08that is confusing. I was reading this uh

1:06:10Kim Garner Institute report from a few

1:06:12months ago that talks about Utah being a

1:06:15net exporter of fuel that we only

1:06:17consume 77% of our fuel in the local

1:06:20market. So it it sort of contradicts

1:06:22with you know some of this like message

1:06:25about like we need more fuel here when

1:06:28we are already you know can you know

1:06:29everybody knows about Karna Institute

1:06:31and what the good work of they do

1:06:33compiling all the data and giving us

1:06:35reports. So um I would love if you're

1:06:39committed to like share more of that you

1:06:40know where this you know fuel is going

1:06:44to go um and you know how do you uh

1:06:47answer to this uh contradicting if you

1:06:50if you wish information about where you

1:06:53know where this fuel is going to go

1:06:55since we are net exporter.

1:06:58>> Do you want to take that one?

1:06:58>> No we can do it.

1:06:59>> Sure. Yeah. So follow up with the

1:07:02digital information. Yeah, that's a very

1:07:04important piece to me and I think for

1:07:06for the sake of myself since I don't you

1:07:08know I certainly don't see fuel I

1:07:11purchase zero fuel these days but uh but

1:07:14um you know crude um uh you know being

1:07:19very very different and the incident

1:07:20that we have in Salt Lake was a crude uh

1:07:23incident and this being refined um you

1:07:26know uh refined uh very to use if you

1:07:29wish uh fuel um what What is the

1:07:32difference between these two and and

1:07:34you're proposing a refined fuel line? Is

1:07:36that correct?

1:07:37>> Correct.

1:07:38>> You like for like for those if as if we

1:07:41were kids, right? Like what is the

1:07:42difference between one or the other? Uh

1:07:45just like for for us to understand.

1:07:48Well, first I would say the hazardous uh

1:07:50uh the pipelines and haz hazardous

1:07:53materials uh safety administration or

1:07:56FEMA regulates uh hazardous liquid

1:07:59pipelines

1:08:01the same in terms of engineering and

1:08:04materials used for construction for uh

1:08:07crude oil and refined products. Uh

1:08:10beyond uh that Randy Yeah.

1:08:14>> So I can I can give like a very high

1:08:16level. So crude oil when it's shipped to

1:08:19a refinery essentially that has all the

1:08:22different components that are refined

1:08:24out. So it's it's kind of like the base

1:08:27product. It goes to a refinery, they go

1:08:30through all their process and you get

1:08:31some diesel. And so you get gasoline,

1:08:34you get these different components.

1:08:36So if you have a crude oil spill, we

1:08:40kind of in response we consider them all

1:08:42the general like same family. Um, crude

1:08:46oil, you'd have like all the components

1:08:47that make up all those different things.

1:08:49A refined products pipeline would have

1:08:51subsets of that crude oil kind of

1:08:55concentrated and

1:08:57refined out. It it's like super high

1:09:00level that

1:09:01>> and so the difference one of the

1:09:03differences I guess is like one is more

1:09:04viscous is like thicker, right? And the

1:09:07one you know I've seen fuel uh so it's

1:09:11just like water almost, right? So those

1:09:14are some major differences on how they

1:09:17they behave when you know they are

1:09:20>> spilled right. So that that to me I felt

1:09:23like there is big important distinction

1:09:25on what this is propo proposing as you

1:09:28know if I throw um you know something

1:09:31very viscous on the ground versus if I

1:09:33throw a glass of water they behave

1:09:35differently and what they impact

1:09:37differently on the on the ground around

1:09:38it. So to me feel like having that

1:09:42information for the the public to

1:09:44understand for us to understand I think

1:09:45it would be very useful. Um I don't know

1:09:48if you have something to add but right

1:09:50after council member Dugan.

1:09:52>> Yeah my kind of questions kind of just

1:09:55come right into that. So we've mentioned

1:09:57it before 2010 we had the Chevron spill.

1:10:0034,000 gallons of uh

1:10:04uh crude were spilled. uh it went into

1:10:07our leagues, our our our streams. It got

1:10:10down to the Jordan River and it was a

1:10:12mess, but it was crude. So, you know, it

1:10:15was easy to pick it up because you could

1:10:16see it in the dirt. You could clean up

1:10:18the dirt and uh it was a long time, but

1:10:20it's in the it's in the memories of the

1:10:22cities across the board. And it's it's

1:10:25it's high in our memory. Now, that's

1:10:27crude and it's easy. It's relatively

1:10:30easy to clean. This is gasoline. It's

1:10:34just like water. once it hits the

1:10:36ground, it's going to soak into the

1:10:37water. So, that is a concern of of the

1:10:40residents across the board because it's

1:10:42uh not just the volatility side of the

1:10:44house, it's the health of their their

1:10:46neighborhoods. And from that lesson,

1:10:49from this Chevron spill, what did the

1:10:53industry or you learned from that spill?

1:10:57>> First, let me say that that was a a

1:11:00horrible incident. We never want to see

1:11:02that happen. And while that line wasn't

1:11:04owned by HF Sinclair, uh no one in

1:11:07industry wants to see an industry

1:11:09partner have an incident like that. We

1:11:11live here, we work here, and uh our kids

1:11:14go to school here. So, we are invested

1:11:16in this community as as you are. For the

1:11:20specifics on that particular incident,

1:11:22I'm going to turn to Randy. He handles

1:11:25the integrity management and uh

1:11:28preventive measures that go into uh

1:11:31pipelines and then he'll followed by be

1:11:34followed by Connor who handles once an

1:11:36incident happens what do we do in terms

1:11:38of emergency response

1:11:41>> the 2010 Chevron's bill red but bill um

1:11:44the pipeline was leaking for several

1:11:47hours before Chevron was able to detect

1:11:49that right um I think the response was

1:11:52nine hours after the event. Um, you

1:11:56asked what was learned. As an industry,

1:11:58we've made um big improvements in our

1:12:01leak detection systems. Our leak

1:12:03detection systems are computer-based

1:12:06models based on data that you're getting

1:12:08from the pipeline, pressures and flows

1:12:11and temperatures, those kinds of things.

1:12:13Some things that the industry has done

1:12:15of we've um shortened the space between

1:12:18remotely operated block valves that

1:12:21allow us to to block in the line in in

1:12:23smaller sections. So the potential for

1:12:25loss from a pipeline incident is

1:12:27smaller. Our leak detection tools now

1:12:29are are much better in terms of um

1:12:32monitoring the pipeline data. Um without

1:12:36getting too technical, but we can alarm

1:12:38a a pipeline dispatcher in in a control

1:12:40center. this particular um pipeline when

1:12:43complete will be operated by the P66

1:12:45control center, but they we all have to

1:12:48run the same technology. Um

1:12:51data transfer is much faster. Block

1:12:53valves are closer together. Um we're

1:12:55much better at modeling the system to

1:12:58detect those um deviations from what we

1:13:01what it should be. Um, so instead of a a

1:13:04spill event that might run for eight or

1:13:06nine hours before um the Chevron

1:13:09realized that, we're down to minutes

1:13:13>> and I appreciate that cuz you know I

1:13:16think the what I was told was the the

1:13:18shuttle valve was in Duchaine on this

1:13:21one but that's what I was just told. I

1:13:23don't know. I don't have literally the

1:13:24but no from Duchain here is a couple

1:13:26hundred miles. So that's a lot of oil

1:13:28crude that's going through there before

1:13:30it's actually shut off. So when you

1:13:31talked about the block shut offs are and

1:13:35you just said they're closer. So what's

1:13:37the distance between these block shut

1:13:38off valves?

1:13:40That's a function of our final design

1:13:42looking at the workbased discharge if

1:13:44you have a hill coming down and a hill

1:13:46going back up. if you have a a hole in

1:13:48the blow spot. Um so we there's some

1:13:52rules of thumb no more than 10 miles um

1:13:55currently which is closer than duchain

1:13:58right um but we we arrange those block

1:14:02valves on the engineering design based

1:14:04on what the the worst case of the

1:14:06discharge might be. Wow. So you

1:14:10you said 10 miles. So 10 miles time the

1:14:12volume of this uh pipe that's a that's a

1:14:14lot of gallons in 10 miles in a pipe

1:14:17that could be that could be spilled

1:14:18before uh the next shut off happens. So

1:14:23and and I just you know if it's worst

1:14:27case scenario the leak is you know a

1:14:30foot above the other valve than this

1:14:33valve and it shuts off you got that 10

1:14:35miles of valve. So, I'm really looking

1:14:37at I was looking at like 500 ft between

1:14:39valves, not 5 miles. And maybe that's

1:14:42maybe that's over over doing it too, but

1:14:45I'm looking more than 10 miles. So, I

1:14:46would really like to know between this

1:14:48because that's how much oil or gasoline

1:14:52is potentially going to be in our water

1:14:54system and then stopping us from

1:14:57actually drinking any water for for

1:14:58quite some time. So, that's my first

1:15:00question. And then you talk about the

1:15:01remote remote sensing. So if they detect

1:15:04a leak, does it automatically shut off

1:15:06the valves in up and downstream from

1:15:08that that leak?

1:15:10>> Typically takes human intervention.

1:15:12>> So it still takes human intervention to

1:15:14shut that off

1:15:15>> from the control center.

1:15:16>> From the control? Yeah, there's someone

1:15:17there's and I'm assuming there's someone

1:15:19there 24 hours a day. 24.

1:15:21>> Yeah. So So he still has to do that. And

1:15:22is there a point where there's a uh plus

1:15:25or minus variability on the on the leak

1:15:27there? So this could be leaking at a a

1:15:30small amount. Uh but but over time it

1:15:34could be a lot of gasoline. What's that

1:15:37what's that point where the the alarm

1:15:38goes off and it's red instead of it's

1:15:40just yellow.

1:15:41>> Council member, if I could just jump in

1:15:43real quick, I'm happy to to set up a a

1:15:46meeting with you and really get into the

1:15:48details and the technical issues. One

1:15:50thing I wanted to point out is that

1:15:52particular line was built in 1950. Uh

1:15:55so, you know, one of the biggest factors

1:15:58in in in leaks is corrosion. uh and the

1:16:02leaps and bounds that we've made as an

1:16:04industry in terms of corrosion

1:16:05protection and leak detection systems.

1:16:08Speaking of which, the FEMA incident

1:16:11report on that particular issue uh

1:16:13determined a lack of an adequate leak

1:16:16detection system being put in place and

1:16:18that was a corrective act. The industry

1:16:20has come a long way since that time. Uh

1:16:22this is a new pipe with the latest

1:16:24technologies and we're we're confident

1:16:26that that we can do this safely and

1:16:28we're committed to doing it responsibly.

1:16:29But in terms of the technical details,

1:16:32we'll grab Randy and and do a one-on-one

1:16:34with you if you can. Yeah, I appreciate

1:16:35it because I I go back to the the

1:16:38comment we you made and then I also made

1:16:40uh and I think maybe it was Randy said

1:16:42the high consequence risk and I and I

1:16:44can continue to come back to that that

1:16:46comment because we have so many miles in

1:16:48our watershed that that risk compared to

1:16:53Morgan or compared to not building it is

1:16:56pretty uh high and it doesn't take much

1:16:58to really impact the the health and

1:17:01safety and the economy of the Wasatch

1:17:04front not to Salt Lake City, but the the

1:17:05was front on the the the financial side

1:17:07of the house when if you have to shut

1:17:09down our our water treatment system

1:17:10because then we're um

1:17:14not in a good very good place. So I

1:17:16always come back to that point and what

1:17:20makes us get out of that high-risk high

1:17:23consequence risk uh in a lower level. So

1:17:28>> yeah,

1:17:28>> thank you.

1:17:29>> Thank you, Council Member Dugan. Council

1:17:30member Petro. Hi, my name is Victoria

1:17:33Petro. I represent District 1, which is

1:17:36where the airport is. We've already

1:17:39borne so many consequences from the

1:17:41dependence on fossil fu fuels here,

1:17:43notably the worst air quality sometimes

1:17:46in the entire world and nation,

1:17:48disproportionate rates of cancer, my

1:17:50neighbors work at your refineries. We've

1:17:53done a great job of supporting your

1:17:56bottom line and efficiency and jet fuel.

1:18:00And so please forgive me if my tone

1:18:02betrays a little more emotionality than

1:18:04typical on this because this is really

1:18:06deeply personal to my neighbors and I. I

1:18:09would love some clarification

1:18:11on some jargon that I repeatedly am

1:18:14hearing. So for instance, we talk about

1:18:17bestin class.

1:18:20Is best-in-class as compared to your

1:18:23peers? Is it as compared to

1:18:28the theoretical physicists who tell us

1:18:30what should be possible? What does best

1:18:32in class refer to?

1:18:37>> Uh, council member, I I hear your

1:18:39concerns and uh we would love to spend

1:18:44time with you to help you understand the

1:18:46nuances of our

1:18:47>> And you know what? I will cook for you

1:18:49cuz you are a human and I love you as a

1:18:51human. But right now I need people who

1:18:52are tuning in in the public record to

1:18:54hear this. So as much as you're able, as

1:18:57accurate as you're able now, I would

1:18:59appreciate every clear answer with the

1:19:01commitment that I will cook for you when

1:19:03we get together in the future to talk

1:19:05more about this.

1:19:08>> It it means that we're committed to

1:19:10doing something safely or we don't do it

1:19:13at all. That's

1:19:14>> so best in class. Are you comparing

1:19:16yourselves to Exxon Mobile who spilled

1:19:19into the Gulf repeatedly and while

1:19:22detection was quick solution was

1:19:24delayed? Or are we comparing to

1:19:26engineers who have the luxury of going

1:19:28this is what should be happening without

1:19:31pressure from capitalistic

1:19:34entities.

1:19:37>> I would reiterate what I said earlier

1:19:40which is we never want an incident to

1:19:41occur ever. I hear that you don't want

1:19:44to when you are applying standards in

1:19:47your real world where the real physics

1:19:50of time and energy and space apply and

1:19:55where the economic pressures exist so

1:19:57such as supply and demand is making

1:19:59decisions over maybe prudence. What does

1:20:02best-in-class mean?

1:20:04>> Well, the example that you just gave is

1:20:06actually a great one. Anytime there's an

1:20:08incident in our industry, we get

1:20:11together and we develop best practices

1:20:14and standards. The American Petroleum

1:20:16Institute of Standards is the governing

1:20:18body for those standards. They've

1:20:19existed for over a century. Typically,

1:20:23state and federal regulators will use

1:20:25those standards to implement as required

1:20:28regulations. So we have industry

1:20:30learnings as well as regulatory

1:20:32requirements to ensure incidents that

1:20:36happened are less likely to happen again

1:20:39by using those best practices and those

1:20:42standards. And the Gulf is one example.

1:20:44We're not that's outside of our

1:20:46industry. But in that particular

1:20:48example, there were a whole host of uh

1:20:50corrective measures that were put into

1:20:52place, various types of capping stacks

1:20:54and booms.

1:20:55We I could go at length with with the

1:20:58progress that was made with each

1:20:59incident. Each incident is awful and

1:21:01horrific. We never want it to happen,

1:21:02but when it does, we get together as an

1:21:05industry and we resolve the issue to fix

1:21:09that problem to prevent reoccurrence.

1:21:11>> We'll get together with my neighbors

1:21:12when gasoline is indistinguishable from

1:21:15the drinking water.

1:21:20>> I'm not sure if you're asking me a

1:21:22question or if that was a statement.

1:21:23Well, I I'm glad I'm glad for I I prefer

1:21:26proactive measures. Um everything you

1:21:29said is reactive. So, in this case, when

1:21:32gasoline comes into the community

1:21:35through a watershed, I have to wait for

1:21:38the gasoline to be indistinguishable

1:21:40from the water so that people will get

1:21:43to together to decide what best and

1:21:44class should have been to keep our water

1:21:46from being poisoned.

1:21:48Well, we look at risk through the lens

1:21:52of mitigation and prevention and if

1:21:55there is an incident emergency response.

1:21:58Randy, did you have anything to add? I

1:22:00couldn't tell if you were want to jump

1:22:01in.

1:22:02>> Yeah.

1:22:03>> So then, so then that does bring up

1:22:05risk. So yes, the watershed is

1:22:08tremendously important. Clearly I'm a

1:22:11huge advocate for clean drinking water.

1:22:14Um, we're not just going

1:22:17>> clearly not just going through a

1:22:19watershed,

1:22:20>> going literally through a fault line.

1:22:23Now, I will admit I am just a single mom

1:22:25from the west side who has her roots in

1:22:27humanities. I The hardest science I ever

1:22:30studied was political. So, engineers

1:22:32know different things than me.

1:22:35What could you possibly be offering to

1:22:38ensure us that when the inevitable big

1:22:41one that we repeatedly prepare for here

1:22:44with everything from

1:22:46all the way through to the great

1:22:49shakeout where my children at school

1:22:51learn to get under desks

1:22:54we are certain that the big one is

1:22:55coming. What could you possibly be

1:22:57offering us in terms of engineering that

1:22:59turns this into a risk and not a

1:23:02certainty that this is a time bomb under

1:23:05our watershed?

1:23:08>> In terms of the Wasatch fault once a

1:23:11route determination is made.

1:23:13>> Um, can you speak into your microphone?

1:23:15Thank you.

1:23:16>> Little closer.

1:23:16>> Yes.

1:23:17>> Is that better?

1:23:17>> Yes. Thank you.

1:23:19>> Seems to be stuck down.

1:23:20>> Sorry.

1:23:21>> There we go. In terms of the Wasatch

1:23:23fault, once a final route determination

1:23:26is made, we'll do the geotechnical

1:23:28engineering on that fault that will

1:23:30drive engineering decisions for the

1:23:31pipeline that might result in things

1:23:33like heavier wall, thicker pipe, um the

1:23:37automated block valves that I mentioned

1:23:40um on either side of the fault zone. Uh

1:23:43we have ways to instrument the pipe for

1:23:44ground movement. We have ways to

1:23:46instrument the pipe for induced stress.

1:23:49Um, so as these events would happen,

1:23:52these instruments would provide alarming

1:23:54to a control center or that pipeline

1:23:58could be shut down and blocked in.

1:24:00So minimizing

1:24:03potential

1:24:04>> and then the 10 miles that was stuck in

1:24:06there then would I I don't know how

1:24:08thick something would have to be to

1:24:09survive what they tell us to prepare

1:24:11for.

1:24:12>> So the the 10 miles is kind of the

1:24:14outside, right? that's that's as far

1:24:16apart. In the case of the of the Wasatch

1:24:19front, um we'd look at the geocience to

1:24:22see what the edge of the potential

1:24:26impact area was and then put the block

1:24:28valves there.

1:24:30>> Um we saw France have issues with food

1:24:34because someone hacked into a

1:24:35refrigeration system and spoiled food

1:24:39for an entire village. What is your

1:24:41protection against cyber attacks? And

1:24:44have you learned to get your people to

1:24:46close valves all the way? Because even

1:24:49if that was a quality control issue

1:24:50tomorrow, it could be another issue.

1:24:53>> All of our remote system that's

1:24:55controlled out of a a central control

1:24:57center is covered by transportation,

1:24:59security administration, cyber security

1:25:01rules. So we have firewalls at every one

1:25:04of our remote sites. Um we work inside

1:25:08what we call an operational technology

1:25:11network which is a little more secure

1:25:13than an information tech technology

1:25:15network. Um

1:25:18to the best of our ability we keep that

1:25:20operational technology locked down.

1:25:23>> Ultimately a lot of the issues that

1:25:24you're speaking about whether it's water

1:25:26quality whether it's seismic activity

1:25:28are addressed and contemplated in

1:25:30federal regulations under femist

1:25:32jurisdiction. If it would be

1:25:34appropriate, we'd be happy to help

1:25:35facilitate a briefing by FEMA to to the

1:25:37council or staff.

1:25:38>> I mean, I'm always welcome, but you'll

1:25:40have to forgive me if I'm a little

1:25:41dubious about federal regulations and

1:25:43their ability to be in enforced in time

1:25:45to help neighbors at this moment. Um,

1:25:47but the other thing I'm drawing on here

1:25:49is your f your SEC filing from December

1:25:5325th. Um, if you'll give me leave to to

1:25:57read here. Our operations are subject to

1:26:00catastrophic losses, operational

1:26:02hazards, unforeseen interruptions, and

1:26:05other disruptive risks such as natural

1:26:07disasters, adverse weather, accidents,

1:26:11maritime disasters, or casualties,

1:26:13including those involving marine vessels

1:26:15and terminals, fires, explosions,

1:26:18hazardous material releases or spills,

1:26:21terrorist attacks or cyber attacks,

1:26:24vandalism, power failures, mechanical

1:26:27failures, and other events beyond our

1:26:29control. And we have experienced certain

1:26:32of those events in the past. These

1:26:35events could result in an injury or loss

1:26:38of life and have in the past and could

1:26:41in the future result in property damage

1:26:43or destruction or curtailment of an

1:26:47interruption in our operations and may

1:26:49affect our ability to meet customer

1:26:52commitments.

1:26:54Why does the SEC

1:26:57get that

1:26:59but we get promises of best-in-class?

1:27:04I can't speak to the SEC requirements,

1:27:06but what I can tell you is that industry

1:27:09has made monumental progress in the

1:27:12previous decades when it comes to safety

1:27:15enacting

1:27:16>> was December 25th.

1:27:18>> Yeah, I can't speak to the disclaimer in

1:27:20that document. Uh I I'm just telling you

1:27:22that

1:27:24we can do this project safely and

1:27:27reliably and the issues that that you're

1:27:31concerned with in terms of safety are uh

1:27:35contemplated in existing regulations and

1:27:37state and federal law. And with those

1:27:40laws and the best practices in the API

1:27:44standards, we will employ uh the best

1:27:47leak detection systems and the best leak

1:27:52uh I'm sorry, integrity management

1:27:53programs to protect your drinking water

1:27:56sources.

1:27:57>> Can I ask a follow?

1:27:58>> Can I?

1:27:59>> Sure.

1:28:00So in that same filing, it goes on to

1:28:03say, "We currently have environmental

1:28:06remediation projects that relate to

1:28:08recovery, treatment, and monitor

1:28:10activities resulting from past releases

1:28:13of refined product and crude oil into

1:28:16the environment. As of December 31st,

1:28:182025, we had an approval of 189 million

1:28:22related to such environmental

1:28:23liabilities.

1:28:29>> I didn't hear a question, council

1:28:31member.

1:28:32>> Just that

1:28:34this is what

1:28:37already in existence as of December

1:28:3931st.

1:28:41Um we're we're less than a year later.

1:28:44Um, and I guess I'm concerned that um,

1:28:49you know, you've said that there've been

1:28:51pro progress over the decades, but like

1:28:53there's still a substantial amount of

1:28:56damage happening. It sounds like,

1:28:58>> council member, we have a long history

1:29:00in Utah. We have pipelines in the state.

1:29:02We own the ENF pipeline. This is a JV

1:29:05with Pioneer. We own crude lines. We own

1:29:07a refinery here. We own refineries in

1:29:09Wyoming. [snorts]

1:29:10We have a good track record in the

1:29:12state. We employ thousands of people and

1:29:14we provide products to the people that

1:29:17need them.

1:29:19We are also committed to acting safely,

1:29:22reliably, and responsibly and we're

1:29:24committed to doing that with this

1:29:26project.

1:29:27>> Before I close out my um you keep using

1:29:33the term high consequence area

1:29:36and I would love and I'm based on

1:29:39previous questions I I can predict. I I

1:29:42would love for you to provide me some

1:29:44clarifying criteria for what makes

1:29:46something high consequence because

1:29:48nothing feels higher consequence than

1:29:50protecting the natural beauty that has

1:29:52been committed to us. the that my

1:29:55neighbors and I depend on and a

1:29:58redundancy carrying a more dangerous

1:30:03does not comport with any of the charges

1:30:06we have been given when we raised our

1:30:08hand and swore an oath to protect this

1:30:12place and the constitutions here. I do

1:30:15want to go on the public record as

1:30:17saying that I appreciate all of you for

1:30:20being here and looking me in the eye

1:30:22while we talk about this. The seven of

1:30:24us have somehow managed to turn getting

1:30:27yelled at into a public profession.

1:30:30There is nothing easy about what you've

1:30:32done. And so I want to thank you and

1:30:34recognize the dignity you have as humans

1:30:36sitting here in front of us. I'm sorry

1:30:39to find myself in such opposition to

1:30:41you. I do hope that you can forgive me

1:30:44for the ways that I cannot be on board

1:30:47with what you're proposing. Thank you,

1:30:49>> council member. I love your passion and

1:30:50I appreciate you saying that. That last

1:30:52comment I appreciate very much. We want

1:30:54to give you you can ask us tough

1:30:56questions. We want to give you good

1:30:57responses. The definition of high

1:31:00consequence area is defined in 49 CFR

1:31:02part 195 which is FEM's regulations and

1:31:05it sets out a criteria for population

1:31:08densities, urban areas and areas that

1:31:11are uh near drinking water sources.

1:31:14>> I'd love it if you would show me how

1:31:15this project lines up against those.

1:31:17>> Most if not all of the route through

1:31:19Salt Lake County and Salt Lake City is a

1:31:22high consequence area. So that would be

1:31:24subject to heightened more heightened

1:31:27regulatory requirements by FEMs because

1:31:29of that.

1:31:30>> And just real quick just cuz I want to

1:31:33add a couple just one thing. The EPA has

1:31:35a a viewer a map viewer that overlays

1:31:38high consequence areas and wersheds and

1:31:40so you can it's available to look all

1:31:43that information up pretty

1:31:45>> I don't think anybody in this room and

1:31:47Jennifer Nipper Pierce Council member

1:31:50you're next. Um and no one um no one you

1:31:54know doesn't believe that you don't want

1:31:57this pipe to you know be no break right

1:32:01like that we that that's the goal that

1:32:03we share but one gallon of of gasoline

1:32:05pollutes a million gallons of water

1:32:08right like so this is even if even if

1:32:11like everything works well and like it's

1:32:13completely out of your control something

1:32:15happens this is the question that we're

1:32:17trying to answer right like one gallon

1:32:19of gasoline spilled and it will spill if

1:32:22knock on wood you know more than just

1:32:25one gallon we're talking about millions

1:32:27and millions of gallons of of potential

1:32:29water uh you know and that is the that

1:32:32is the the balance this is what we're

1:32:34trying to you know what the question

1:32:36that is being brought up to us is who

1:32:38which one do we value more and that's

1:32:40why this uh line of the questions that

1:32:42we have and thank you for being here for

1:32:44answering these questions council member

1:32:45Nepir Pierce

1:32:47>> thank you Mr. chair. Uh, I just wanted

1:32:49to talk about pipes, the actual pipe.

1:32:53What does that do to our foothills? Can

1:32:56you just talk about the the actual

1:32:58physical construction that it would

1:33:00require?

1:33:05>> You're asking about the impacts to the

1:33:07to the hills. Uh,

1:33:10first I would say again, we haven't made

1:33:13up any final decisions on a proposed

1:33:16route. We've we've offered uh different

1:33:18alternatives to the city staff which

1:33:20we're happy to talk through with you as

1:33:21well. Whatever route we choose based on

1:33:23the survey data gathered, we would seek

1:33:26to to mitigate impacts uh to the

1:33:29environment, restore conditions to where

1:33:31they uh were before our our project. Uh

1:33:35and uh we're committed to ensuring that

1:33:38that the public is made aware of of uh

1:33:41what we're doing and and give them an

1:33:43opportunity to weigh in and uh give us

1:33:46give us feedback and and this is an

1:33:48opportunity for you know you to tell us

1:33:51what you think too. If if if the city

1:33:52council thinks that you [snorts] know we

1:33:55should look at different routes or there

1:33:56is a better alternative we're happy to

1:33:58entertain those discussions.

1:33:59>> I guess I just physically want people to

1:34:01visualize what this looks like.

1:34:048 feet 10 feet trench. How deep?

1:34:08>> I'll let uh Randy jump in for those

1:34:10technical questions. For construction,

1:34:12the typical rightaway would be 50 feet

1:34:14wide. Um

1:34:16>> sorry,

1:34:16>> 50

1:34:17>> 50 feet wide. Uh top soil would be

1:34:20pulled one direction reserved with

1:34:23appropriate uh storm water controls

1:34:25around it. Um the pipe would generally

1:34:27go in

1:34:29federal regulations require a minimum of

1:34:32of three feet. Um the depth of the pipe

1:34:35will be determined by the final route

1:34:36and engineering design but no less than

1:34:383 ft. Um once the pipe is in the ground,

1:34:41you you back fill it. um put the put the

1:34:44ground back to contour as closely as

1:34:46possible so it's the same shape as it

1:34:48was and then and then do your uh

1:34:51rightway restoration

1:34:53um seating and um

1:34:56you know trying to get it back to where

1:34:58it was. It's visible for a couple of

1:35:01years but um eventually you get it back

1:35:04to where it was.

1:35:05>> Okay. So now it come into the city. What

1:35:09does that look like in a street where

1:35:12there's already utilities and things

1:35:14underline uh underground? How do you

1:35:16work that?

1:35:18>> Urban construction would be different

1:35:20than than coming coming down the

1:35:22footholes. Uh urban construction would

1:35:24be much more like um uh when you see a

1:35:26sewer line going in where you you your

1:35:28your construction is very narrow. Um

1:35:31you're pulling a trench box, you're

1:35:33putting one joint of pipe in, making the

1:35:35weld as you go. um you kind of keep

1:35:38things gathered up. So it would look

1:35:41very similar to a large diameter sewer

1:35:44or water project in urban areas under

1:35:48streets and so forth.

1:35:51>> And how long would that construction

1:35:52take?

1:35:56>> We're planning to start in 28 and be

1:36:00operating by 29.

1:36:03We can't give you the exact specifics

1:36:05when we're at this stage of the project,

1:36:07but we're happy to come back and keep

1:36:08you informed as the project progresses.

1:36:10>> I just want people to be very clear on

1:36:13what the impacts are for not just our

1:36:15city streets, but for our foothills. Um,

1:36:19will you need additional roads

1:36:22constructed through whatever foothills

1:36:25alignment you have

1:36:28>> there? Again, once a final route

1:36:29determination is made, we would look at

1:36:31existing access to access that that

1:36:33pipeline right away. In in terms of

1:36:36stringing pipe and bringing construction

1:36:38equipment in. Um, if any additional

1:36:40access is needed to get to that

1:36:42rightway, it would be treated just like

1:36:44the pipeline right away with uh top soil

1:36:46preserved and and put back put back to

1:36:48condor and then um reveated.

1:36:52And if there is construction in an

1:36:55existing street, um are there any

1:36:59mitigation measures in place if a

1:37:02contractor punches through your pipeline

1:37:05and creates a leak that you're not

1:37:07responsible for, but that's the nature

1:37:10of city living, right?

1:37:12>> Sure. So, um we're covered by the 811,

1:37:15the call before you dig. Um we have a

1:37:17vigorous public education program. and

1:37:19we work with um uh excavators in the

1:37:22area. Um we try to keep our lines very

1:37:26well marked where standing at any

1:37:28pipeline sign you can see the next one

1:37:30both ways. Um typical mitigative

1:37:33measures there.

1:37:35>> I guess my last question is um a request

1:37:40for information.

1:37:43How many people will be impacted if you

1:37:45chose to extend the line in Morgan

1:37:48versus the number of people who are

1:37:51affected coming through a major

1:37:53metropolitan area?

1:37:56Have you done that analysis?

1:38:00>> Again, we we haven't gotten that far on

1:38:02this project and where we are. We're

1:38:03we're before you now uh taking the heat

1:38:06because we want to be collaborative and

1:38:08transparent. We we we took this

1:38:10opportunity to tell you what we know and

1:38:13what we've got so far and and hopefully

1:38:15this isn't the only time to have this

1:38:17discussion. We'd like to come back as

1:38:18the project progresses.

1:38:20>> I guess I'm just wondering why that

1:38:21wasn't part of your initial uh analysis.

1:38:26>> Impacts to the public and the

1:38:27environment were uh a substantial

1:38:30portion of those feasibility studies on

1:38:34routing options.

1:38:40Thank you.

1:38:42>> I mean, you know, this is where like it

1:38:43goes back to Council Member Wharton's

1:38:44question. It's like when we're

1:38:46comparing, you know, the amount of

1:38:48density, you know, uh versus a potential

1:38:52all the routes, you know, the logically

1:38:54doesn't close for me. It seems like this

1:38:56might not be closing for some of us.

1:38:58like how is that even logically possible

1:39:00that when you're trying to when you're

1:39:03putting all of this in a tally which is

1:39:04I'm sure more comp complicated than that

1:39:06[cough]

1:39:07you know the amount of density and the

1:39:09amount of conflict with you know

1:39:13infrastructure you know uh public spaces

1:39:18just that calculation and this is why I

1:39:20keep asking for like hopefully you know

1:39:21more information on how you came up with

1:39:24this being the preferred route um

1:39:25council member uh Carlson And then

1:39:28council member Warden.

1:39:29>> Um I want to build on council member

1:39:31Napier's Pierce's questions about kind

1:39:34of impact um not only to the foothills

1:39:36but also impact to neighbors. So I'm

1:39:38looking out in the audience and I see

1:39:40some neighbors whose property exists

1:39:43adjacent to um this proposed route. And

1:39:46my questions are really about how would

1:39:48this proposed pipeline impact the value

1:39:51of those properties? How would it impact

1:39:53the current insurance that they

1:39:55currently carry on those properties? And

1:39:57what are other uh long-term impacts that

1:39:59you've seen when you've constructed uh

1:40:01these pipelines similar to this in

1:40:04residential areas?

1:40:06>> We we're again we're not that far along

1:40:08in the process of this project.

1:40:11>> If I could follow up in your in other I

1:40:13imagine this is not the first time

1:40:14you've done this. So in other pipelines

1:40:17that HF Sinclair has constructed, what

1:40:20has been the impact to those adjacent

1:40:22property owners? I don't think we have

1:40:25those types of uh experts at the table

1:40:27right now. We'd be happy to follow up

1:40:28with you with with those types of

1:40:30questions. Um as I said, Connor's

1:40:33emergency response, Drew is in

1:40:34commercial and and and Randy is on the

1:40:36technical piece and midstream. Um so we

1:40:40we'll have to to follow up with you uh

1:40:42in response to those questions. I I know

1:40:44that my neighbors in the audience would

1:40:45love to see a response to those

1:40:47questions because as many of us their

1:40:49homes are the biggest financial asset

1:40:51that they have and so anything that

1:40:53could threaten the value of those homes

1:40:56or their insurance rates or other things

1:40:58are probably top of mind for our

1:41:00neighbors. Thank you. I think it's worth

1:41:02to add to that that many areas where

1:41:06this this alignment is as proposed, many

1:41:09of those areas are on wells. Um, you

1:41:12know, on top of that, right? So, Council

1:41:14Warden,

1:41:16>> I'm sorry, I'm still kind of reeling

1:41:17from the 50 foot number. Is it always 50

1:41:20feet or is it like up to 50 ft?

1:41:24>> Typical construction outside of an urban

1:41:27area, it's generally 50 feet. That gives

1:41:30you room for the ditch, the pipe, the

1:41:34equipment to weld the pipe, and the and

1:41:36the dirt that you pulled out of the

1:41:37hole.

1:41:38>> Because looking at the at the map, it

1:41:41looks like it just goes down 11th

1:41:43Avenue, and that's I think 40 ft.

1:41:48>> Urban construction would look different.

1:41:50The 50 ft is outside of an urban area.

1:41:53>> Okay. So, tell me what that looks like.

1:41:55The how much how much smaller?

1:41:59significantly smaller because it looks

1:42:01like a waterline project. You you you've

1:42:03got the trench box.

1:42:04>> So the width of your trench and you're

1:42:07moving it along. Um typical urban

1:42:10construction for any other utility.

1:42:12>> So the narrowest would be what?

1:42:15>> 15 ft maybe.

1:42:18>> Okay.

1:42:20>> Um

1:42:22so okay that I mean I think there are

1:42:25probably areas. So, it looks like it

1:42:26goes down 11th and um follows down

1:42:30Bonavville Boulevard into the canyon. I

1:42:33mean, there's parts of that road that

1:42:35are less than 15 ft wide.

1:42:38>> We have not made a final route

1:42:39selection. This is kind of the route

1:42:41we're we're looking at. We're looking at

1:42:43all different alternatives. That's

1:42:45generally the path we propose at the

1:42:48moment, but no final route selection.

1:42:50And council member, we've also provided

1:42:52additional routes to Salt Lake City

1:42:54staff that they they have access to. We

1:42:56can provide those to you directly as

1:42:57well. We're looking to collaborate.

1:42:59We're looking to get information from

1:43:00you. Uh staff directed uh our request

1:43:05for uh feedback to the council and and

1:43:07the elected officials. So, if there's an

1:43:10opportunity that you'd like to engage

1:43:11with us on an individual basis, we'd

1:43:12we'd love to do that.

1:43:14I I'm thinking of in my time on the

1:43:16council, we've had two

1:43:19um

1:43:21pretty historic bonds. Um

1:43:26and one was for roads and one is for

1:43:29parks. Um given that this would impact,

1:43:34you know, some pretty big roads in the

1:43:36neighborhood that I think were part of

1:43:38that project and would definitely impact

1:43:40some of the parks that are part of that

1:43:42project. Do you know what

1:43:45whether construction of u a pipeline

1:43:48would have impacts on the city's bond

1:43:49ratings or on the the risk to those

1:43:54bonds or being able to complete those

1:43:56bonds? Do you know have any idea from

1:43:58other projects?

1:43:59>> I don't think we would be uh in a

1:44:01position to to answer those questions.

1:44:03Council member

1:44:07>> council member Dugan we back to the

1:44:10pipes.

1:44:12Uh most people think of a pipe as a

1:44:14single wall pipe.

1:44:17Uh and I and I I gota believe that these

1:44:20are not single wall pipes. Are they a

1:44:22double wall pipe or they single wall

1:44:24pipe? Or can you kind of like give a uh

1:44:28polysty major explanation of what a

1:44:31single wall pipe is compared to a double

1:44:32wall pipe because I believe these are

1:44:35double but

1:44:37>> yeah the our

1:44:40liquid crude and and uh products

1:44:44infrastructures single wall carbon steel

1:44:46pipe

1:44:47>> single wall carbon steel and is that and

1:44:50most pipes are single wall.

1:44:52>> Yes.

1:44:53And uh Okay. So there's never we haven't

1:44:58gone to a double wall just for for

1:45:00security or nothing. It's always just

1:45:02single pipe. Single wall.

1:45:04>> Very typical.

1:45:05>> Very typical.

1:45:06>> Yeah.

1:45:07>> And how how thick is the wall of the

1:45:09pipe.

1:45:10>> That's driven by engineering design um

1:45:13federal rules.

1:45:16Quarter to a half inch depending on

1:45:18where you're at.

1:45:18>> And they're all it's it's high pressure

1:45:21uh flow. Right. Correct.

1:45:24>> Okay. So, high pressure flow, single

1:45:26wall about a quarter inch, which is a

1:45:28standard industry across the board.

1:45:31>> Yes. And there's a design factor.

1:45:34>> Is that is that international standards

1:45:36or is that a US standards on that kind

1:45:37of stuff? Is there different standards?

1:45:40>> Federal Department of Transportation um

1:45:42has the standards in terms of what the

1:45:44design factor has to be, the safety

1:45:46factor. And then the industry has has

1:45:49built our our standard pipe wall

1:45:51thicknesses and pipe strengths around

1:45:54those.

1:45:56>> Okay. Thank you. I think the point thing

1:45:58one thing to point out in response to

1:46:00your concerns

1:46:02the existing pipelines that traverse

1:46:05through Salt Lake City many many of them

1:46:07are more than a half a century old using

1:46:10uh a different construction practices

1:46:12and uh engineering practices and the

1:46:15construction of those lines. uh we're in

1:46:17a much better place today uh from an

1:46:20engineering perspective uh regarding

1:46:23protecting uh the environment and the

1:46:26public with the engineering of these

1:46:28modern-day constructed pipelines.

1:46:30>> Yeah. Yeah. I figured that it was a

1:46:32different

1:46:33composite compared to what we had

1:46:35before. Thank you.

1:46:37>> I would just note a lot of those homes

1:46:39on 11th Avenue were not built at that

1:46:41time. That was there weren't homes there

1:46:44in the 50s.

1:46:46Okay. See,

1:46:47>> can I just get a clarification on this?

1:46:49So, typically

1:46:52historically they've used materials that

1:46:53they thought would stand up to the task,

1:46:56but over time they either failed or

1:47:00learned something new.

1:47:02How do we know that what you're doing

1:47:04now is the quality we need? And is the

1:47:08standard that you quoted something that

1:47:10meets seismic requirements? Is it does

1:47:13it will that be upgraded? I I have to

1:47:16believe that no one ever dug a hole and

1:47:19said, "Let's put this in the ground."

1:47:20Like even just from an economic

1:47:22standpoint, losing even if you weren't

1:47:24compared about the environment, losing

1:47:26something through leakage doesn't work

1:47:28economically. So, no one has ever put

1:47:30something in the ground going this is

1:47:31going to fail. What kind of testing is

1:47:34now giving you the assurances that this

1:47:36time it's different? When throughout

1:47:38history, it's literally never been

1:47:39different. every time we've had failures

1:47:41of some sort.

1:47:46>> It's kind of a wide-ranging question.

1:47:47Um, our steel manufacturing processes

1:47:50are much better. Um, inspection of the

1:47:53pipe at the mill is much better. Um, the

1:47:56the pipeline coatings, the co uh

1:47:58corrosion prevention coatings are much

1:48:00much better. The welding process is used

1:48:03to join the pipe. And the industry is

1:48:05advancing these things every year. um

1:48:07the strength of the material um in terms

1:48:10of the tensil strength of the steel um

1:48:13and then construction practices, how we

1:48:15how we handle it. Um and then the data

1:48:17we keep around the pipe um using GIS. Um

1:48:22this pipe is built, we know the the mill

1:48:25test report for every joint that went

1:48:26and ground. We've got the welder test

1:48:28report. We've got the X-ray. Every weld

1:48:29is inspected via X-ray. And all that

1:48:32data um exists for the life of the

1:48:35system. none of those things were

1:48:37available um you know when the Chevron

1:48:40line was built or even even into the 70s

1:48:45>> and then the seismic piece

1:48:48>> there are standards and so we'll engage

1:48:51a geotechnical engineer to help us

1:48:53understand what the potential movement

1:48:55is either laterally or vertically or a a

1:48:58wave form um from from the predicted

1:49:02seismic event and we'll use sound

1:49:05engineering practices to um design the

1:49:09pipe for the the traverse of the of the

1:49:11Wasatch fault. Uh thicker pipe, stronger

1:49:14pipe, different construction methods

1:49:16until we have an alignment. We haven't

1:49:18engaged that level of detail on the

1:49:21engineering, but we certainly will. I

1:49:23mean, that's ongoing.

1:49:26So quick um you mentioned earlier today

1:49:30that you have a website already live and

1:49:32you're re you you have a section there

1:49:34where people can submit public comment

1:49:36to you. That's great. I you know I

1:49:38appreciate that. I will you commit to

1:49:40share on a regular basis what you're

1:49:42receiving from that website because I

1:49:44think for us and on the record it will

1:49:46be useful to to you know to to to wait

1:49:49that comment as well on in our process

1:49:51while we are delivering this. Yeah, the

1:49:54the website is westlineconnect.com

1:49:56and we have a dedicated email address uh

1:49:59westlineconnect hfsinclair.com.

1:50:02Uh and we're happy to share what we

1:50:04learn uh from our public engagement

1:50:06process.

1:50:07>> Okay, that's great. I you know I

1:50:08appreciate I'm sure that you're going to

1:50:10get more, you know, with time passes,

1:50:12but I think that uh you know, we're

1:50:15happy to share with you ours too. um

1:50:17right because we're going to get more

1:50:19comment and I think that uh it is

1:50:21important for the sake of public

1:50:22transparency you know this these are not

1:50:25easy questions and you know I'm sure you

1:50:27knew that from the beginning that they

1:50:28were not going to be easy questions you

1:50:30you came with a lot of experts here and

1:50:32I appreciate that um I also um

1:50:35appreciate your commitment to engage

1:50:37with our city uh you know through this

1:50:39process and you know because we also

1:50:41brought our experts to the table to try

1:50:43to answer these questions and trying to

1:50:45uh thoughtfully think about you know

1:50:48what we are responsible here uh from our

1:50:50side right we are responsible uh for for

1:50:53a lot of those things uh to protect you

1:50:55know water for example right and and

1:50:58responsible for all the zoning uh

1:50:59requirements for the city so in some

1:51:02ways I hope that you can commit to to us

1:51:05here uh that you are going to keep

1:51:07staying at the table at this table

1:51:09engaging with the city um that that to

1:51:12me means a lot uh and I think it means a

1:51:14lot to to um to the the neighbors and

1:51:18the hundreds of thousands of people that

1:51:20live in this valley that rely on the

1:51:22resources that we are responsible to

1:51:24protect that you as a company are

1:51:26staying at the table engaging with us uh

1:51:29you know and and answering these

1:51:30questions in this manner.

1:51:32>> Mr. Chairman, you have my absolute

1:51:33commitment that this company is prepared

1:51:35to have these conversations and

1:51:37engagements with you, with your

1:51:39constituents, with your other council

1:51:41members. We want to be collaborative. I

1:51:43really mean that. We we we want you to

1:51:45feel comfortable. We you're raising

1:51:47serious questions, serious issues, and

1:51:49we want to resolve them the best that we

1:51:51can. And ultimately, we want to hear

1:51:54what you have to say. We want to hear

1:51:55what the public has to say, and we want

1:51:56to be informative and transparent and

1:52:00collaborative and and you absolutely

1:52:02have our commitment that we will do

1:52:03that.

1:52:04>> And certainly for for the public record,

1:52:06I think it would be useful to uh to note

1:52:08some of the your proposed routes that

1:52:10you presented. uh you know I think how

1:52:12do you decided which one is better than

1:52:14others and what not. I think that

1:52:16information and putting on the record

1:52:17for the public eye will be useful. I

1:52:20know that the city you know didn't

1:52:22really picked one right we it's hard to

1:52:24pick out of a line that we don't really

1:52:28you know understand the conflict or we

1:52:30understand the conflict or maybe the

1:52:32risk is a little too great for us to to

1:52:33to be able to decide. So, I know that we

1:52:36haven't as a city haven't picked one.

1:52:38Um, but ultimately, I think all of that

1:52:41information, the more information, the

1:52:43better. I think that's the the sum here.

1:52:44Um, is uh the more information that we

1:52:47can make available to to our residents.

1:52:49Um, I I think the decision goes beyond

1:52:53those 30 cents uh that could potentially

1:52:55impact or 40 cents or whatever it is

1:52:57that could impact our bottom line. Well,

1:52:59great. And you know, we are in a very uh

1:53:02tight economy right now. What we are

1:53:04deciding from our side is you know uh

1:53:06generations ahead right and and deciding

1:53:09and putting that on on the scale over

1:53:12you know what you're offering which you

1:53:14know it's needed in in so many ways too

1:53:16uh and trying to decide what uh is more

1:53:19valuable is is hard for us uh so getting

1:53:22all of that information uh will be

1:53:23useful certainly I um I hope that uh we

1:53:26get some more information from you in

1:53:28the in the coming days and coming weeks

1:53:31um I um I'm hoping that uh you know

1:53:34maybe potentially we can schedule a

1:53:36follow-up um you know based on all of

1:53:39that information some of these questions

1:53:40I know that our staff is compiling some

1:53:42of these questions uh you know some of

1:53:44your you know some of your commitments

1:53:47and some of your feedback here uh so we

1:53:49can summarize send it back to you in a

1:53:51formal manner wait for some answers on

1:53:54that and then potentially schedule

1:53:55another meeting uh I think that would be

1:53:58uh the right process this is not a

1:54:00insignificant

1:54:02you insignificant uh change that we're

1:54:05asking to for us to approve. This is

1:54:08actually quite significant to the future

1:54:11of of this city. Uh so I think it is

1:54:14worth uh as much transparency as

1:54:16possible on this manner.

1:54:18>> I appreciate those comments and and you

1:54:20have our commitment to to engage with

1:54:21you when whenever you're willing and

1:54:23able to. I I will say that our project

1:54:26really does prepare for the future. This

1:54:30region is growing. You know, West Coast

1:54:33demand destruction is occurring. There

1:54:34is demand destruction for gasoline and

1:54:36and transportation fuels in certain

1:54:38markets, but this region is growing and

1:54:42is projected to continue to grow. Again,

1:54:44what we reiterated earlier, we expect

1:54:46demand for jet fuel to grow over the

1:54:48next 5 years. This project will help

1:54:51plan for the future. And by by using a

1:54:55different route than the existing route

1:54:56through Morgan County, you now have a

1:54:58redundant, resilient system in place

1:55:01where you're not just beholden to the

1:55:02refineries in Salt Lake. Now you can

1:55:04bring in product for the mid-continent

1:55:06region. You can bring it from uh the

1:55:08Rocky Mountain region. It's an

1:55:09incredible opportunity. And and uh

1:55:12Council Member Petro uh spoke of her

1:55:16desire to have more renewables in the

1:55:17state. We make renewable diesel at a

1:55:19refinery in Cheyenne, Wyoming. we can

1:55:21ship it down Pioneer and bring to this

1:55:23market if there's demand for it. We've

1:55:25made a billion dollar investment in

1:55:26renewable fuels and refineries that make

1:55:28those products. Uh so we're we're fully

1:55:31committed to doing what we can to help

1:55:32this community.

1:55:35>> Ultimately, you know, the the the

1:55:37commitment here uh you know, that you

1:55:39have from our side and you have

1:55:41experienced that through through the

1:55:43process uh you know, meeting with our um

1:55:46with our city departments and whatnot.

1:55:48that you um that we're going to ask the

1:55:51tough questions. Uh and we're going to

1:55:52keep asking them because we we want to

1:55:54ensure that there is a transparent

1:55:56process to this um you know and putting

1:55:59on the scale you know water is the

1:56:01questions here for for many of us right

1:56:03and you know ensuring that that is a

1:56:06protected asset uh for the generations

1:56:09ahead is is something that is uh top of

1:56:11mind for many of us. Council Wharton,

1:56:14>> what if

1:56:16uh I appreciate what you're saying and

1:56:18like looking to the future and and the

1:56:20the advantages because I think a lot of

1:56:22uh residents don't see really any

1:56:25advantage. But let's say that they, you

1:56:28know, we provide this information,

1:56:30there's more briefings that we get some

1:56:31more answers to these questions. What if

1:56:33Salt Lake City residents say no, we

1:56:36don't we don't think it's worth it. We

1:56:38don't think the advantages are worth the

1:56:40risks. Are you willing to look at a

1:56:42different route that doesn't go through

1:56:43Salt Lake City?

1:56:45>> Our hope would be that we could

1:56:47collaborate with the council to find a

1:56:50path forward where there was some

1:56:52agreement.

1:56:54>> And would that include not being in Salt

1:56:56Lake City?

1:57:02>> Uh

1:57:03I wouldn't venture to to uh respond to a

1:57:08hypothetical question like that. What I

1:57:10want to do is commit to you that we're

1:57:12going to be collaborative.

1:57:14If this if Salt Lake City uh council

1:57:17says we don't want to collaborate with

1:57:19you, then we'll we'll we'll face that

1:57:22issue when we come to it. Well, I mean

1:57:23more the residents, like if the

1:57:25residents don't believe that this is

1:57:28worthwhile, and if you're saying that

1:57:30you looked at other routes,

1:57:32um, but you determined that this one

1:57:34made the most sense because it was the

1:57:36safest and most efficient and had all

1:57:38these other things. But if the the

1:57:40people whose, you know, yards and homes

1:57:44this is going to run under say that it

1:57:47that they don't agree that it's

1:57:48worthwhile, like there are alternate

1:57:52routes. Correct.

1:57:57>> Because you've looked at them.

1:57:58>> We've looked at many uh proposed routes.

1:58:01Um I I would say let's let the process

1:58:05play out. Why why confine us to uh you

1:58:10know a specific scenario. We this is our

1:58:13effort to to collaborate. It sounds like

1:58:15you're saying what if we say no?

1:58:18>> Well, we're saying what if residents say

1:58:20no. I'm not talking about because cuz

1:58:22we're just neighbors, right? We just

1:58:24represent our neighborhoods. But I'm

1:58:27saying if you you asked for public

1:58:29feedback, you said, "Let's see what

1:58:31people say. Let's hear what their

1:58:32concerns are." And I just want to know

1:58:35if if the feedback from our

1:58:38constituents, to you and to me, is this

1:58:42is not worth it. The risks are higher

1:58:45than we're comfortable with. Is that

1:58:47feedback going to mean something?

1:58:50In terms of not having this through our

1:58:52city,

1:58:53>> we value public input input on this

1:58:56process every step of the way. And I

1:58:58guess my response would be give us the

1:59:00opportunity to talk with these

1:59:04individuals and and if there are

1:59:05concerns, we want to make sure those

1:59:07concerns are grounded in truth and

1:59:09reality.

1:59:10>> Okay? Okay. There's a lot of

1:59:10misinformation and miscom communication

1:59:13out there on on uh our industry and on

1:59:16pipelines and we want to make sure that

1:59:17your constituents are informed and and

1:59:19have the most accurate information. So

1:59:22give us that opportunity before we get

1:59:24to that point. That's what I would ask.

1:59:25>> You know, I think this is, you know, a

1:59:27first, you know, good step to to seeking

1:59:31that, you know, that feedback from the

1:59:33community. In some ways, you know, to,

1:59:36you know, you you saw council member

1:59:38Warren's questioning as a, you know,

1:59:41putting you a little bit in a box. And

1:59:43in some ways, I feel like I'm in a box,

1:59:44right? Because I'm I'm being told, you

1:59:47know, this is the preferred route. We

1:59:49know best. I'm sure you do, right? We

1:59:52know best. This is the best route. Uh,

1:59:55but, you know, I'm not getting the

1:59:57information on why. and why is in detail

2:00:00why for example Morgan is not the best

2:00:03route like or is not the best route um

2:00:06and you know what I want to get to the

2:00:09bottom of is I think it is cost I think

2:00:12you are choosing and again I'm putting

2:00:14words in your mouth that you have not

2:00:15said but I'm trying to decipher from all

2:00:19of the information that I I'm being

2:00:21presented and correct me if I'm wrong

2:00:23but that that one is more costly it just

2:00:26costs way way too much more than this

2:00:28one and and uh and to me that it it is

2:00:33not a reasonable answer. I'm sure that

2:00:35the you know there are complications to

2:00:37this equation and and and you're trying

2:00:38to wait u multiple things but cost has

2:00:41to be a part of [snorts] your how you

2:00:43decide if a pip pipeline is viable or

2:00:46not and I this is why for us trying to

2:00:51understand if there is an alternative

2:00:53route if there is a possib possibility

2:00:55that a route doesn't go through the

2:00:57wershed that you know gives water to

2:01:00hundreds of thousands of people um

2:01:03there is To me that seems like a worth

2:01:06route, a worthy route and even if more

2:01:10expensive and I know that you are the

2:01:11one paying for that but you know

2:01:13ultimately the risk is too great and

2:01:15trying to understand that. So I

2:01:17appreciate the commitment of you sharing

2:01:18a lot of that information for us to

2:01:20really understand how you make this

2:01:22decision. Um so that that commitment

2:01:25means a lot to us.

2:01:28>> We appreciate that. I understand the

2:01:29concern. Ultimately, the decision was

2:01:31made not to use that because of

2:01:33constructibility, geohhazards, limited

2:01:36workspace, and the presence of

2:01:38additional utilities placed in that

2:01:40corridor. Add to that the logistics

2:01:43involved with the mountainous terrain.

2:01:46Uh the the there often uh uh hillside

2:01:50stabilization issues, landslides,

2:01:53that's a very tough place uh to to work.

2:01:58Again, you've got additional utilities

2:02:00have been built in that space since we

2:02:02since Pioneer was built in 1950. Uh we

2:02:05didn't take this issue lightly.

2:02:08The thorough analysis went into this and

2:02:11using existing pipeline corridors using

2:02:14a different route than the Pioneer

2:02:16existing route gives Utah and Salt Lake

2:02:20greater resiliency and redundancy for

2:02:22their energy security.

2:02:24>> Okay. Okay. Um I I uh again I think we

2:02:29have a lot of like pending questions and

2:02:31you know again uh I'm sure we're going

2:02:33to give some of those to to you soon. Um

2:02:37and uh is there anything else top of

2:02:39mind right now council members?

2:02:43>> Okay I you know we um we will send you

2:02:48some of those questions. Thank you for

2:02:49being here. Thank you for uh the

2:02:51opportunity to to shed light into this

2:02:54and to make to bring it to the public uh

2:02:56to the public uh in a transparent

2:02:58manner. Thank you for committing to

2:02:59staying at the table, staying engaging

2:03:01with Select City uh as we are the

2:03:04stewards of these resources and this

2:03:05land and this water. Um so that means a

2:03:09lot to to us. Thank you.

2:03:11>> My pleasure. Thanks for having us.

2:03:12>> Thank you.

2:03:13>> Thanks, chairman. Thank you, council

2:03:14members.

2:03:18>> Okay. Yes, we um council members, let's

2:03:20take a um

2:03:24a 20 minute break.

2:03:31And should we pull the

2:03:34>> Let's pull I'm going to pull the uh item

2:03:39>> number two which is

2:03:42uh the ordinance for electric assisted

2:03:44bicycles from the agenda to be discussed

2:03:46at a later agenda. Uh after those 20

2:03:49minutes we the council is going to go

2:03:50into um attorney client matters. So the

2:03:53meeting will be adjourned. Thank you

2:03:55everyone.

2:04:27Um and reason

2:04:31[clears throat]

2:04:32>> and reasonably immin imminent

2:04:33litigation.

2:04:34>> Second.

2:04:36>> Council member by motion by council

2:04:38member Wharton seconded by council

2:04:41member Dugan. I'm going to call the

2:04:42question. Council member Npier Pierce

2:04:46>> I.

2:04:46>> Council member Carlson.

2:04:48>> I.

2:04:48>> Council member Young.

2:04:50>> I.

2:04:50>> Council member Petro.

2:04:51>> I.

2:04:51>> Council member Dugan.

2:04:53>> Yes.

2:04:53>> Council member

2:04:55Council member, I'm very disappointed.

2:04:57Council member Warden

2:04:59>> I

2:05:00>> and I may I this uh this is a unanimous

2:05:03vote. We are in close meeting.

2:05:53Thank you.

2:06:33Heat. Heat.

2:06:50[music]

2:07:08>> [music]