2026-10-19 - Planning & Zoning

00:00on some council members to get here and

00:02um we're good to go. So, welcome to

00:06the second uh hearing that we have

00:08planned. I'm going to go ahead and read

00:09this for the record. Uh the purpose of

00:11these planning and zoning committee

00:12hearings, actually, let me go ahead and

00:13say this for the record, too. Today's

00:15Monday, October the 19th. Gia, would you

00:18please call a roll?

00:20>> Yes, sir. Councilman Dr. Warren,

00:23Councilwoman White,

00:25>> and Councilwoman Logan.

00:29All right. Thank you. I know

00:30Councilwoman Walker's on the way as

00:32well, but um yeah, welcome to the

00:34Memphis Planning and Zoning Committee

00:35hearings on data center ordinance

00:37standards

00:38and implementation. So, this is meeting

00:41number two. I'm going to go ahead and

00:42just read for the record the purpose,

00:44the original purpose of all of these

00:46hearings. This committee will reconcile

00:48the pending data center proposals and

00:50take action to deliver a unified

00:52framework governing community

00:53protection, sighting, water, power, air

00:55quality, public cost, fiscal return,

00:57community agreements, prepared

00:58development districts, and creation of

01:00the permanent Memphis Shelby County

01:02Infrastructure Authority. Uh we had our

01:06first hearing last week, correct? Was it

01:10last week? No, it was a week before

01:12last. Yeah, because we had fall break.

01:14Um that one for those of you that

01:17watched if you haven't watched it's

01:18available online that was um the title

01:22of that was full clarity of the

01:23consolidated ordinances as written and I

01:25think uh my council members or my fellow

01:28council members would agree that we

01:31agree on far more than we disagree on

01:33when it comes to all of this but that

01:35was very specific to planning and zoning

01:40and udc text today. I want to thank the

01:43attendees for coming. The uh topic is

01:46community environmental protections

01:48regarding noise, water, air quality, and

01:51neighborhood infrastructure impact. So

01:55with that, I want to um welcome our

01:57guests.

01:59And if you don't mind, um I'll have you

02:02introduce yourselves. Uh we're going to

02:04have Dr. Waldron uh start first with the

02:07University of Memphis.

02:09But um today's attendees

02:13from Memphis Light Gas and Water

02:17actually looking for it.

02:20All right, here we go. Yeah, University

02:21of Memphis, we have Dr. Waldron from

02:23Memphis Light, Gas and Water, we have

02:24Ursula Madden. And from the Shelby

02:26County Health Department, we have Cassia

02:28Alexander and Dr. Bruce Randolph.

02:31So with that, uh Dr. for if you don't

02:34mind um

02:36say approach the bench but have a seat

02:39introduce yourself

02:47and we got Councilwoman Walker's join us

02:50person

02:56um I'm Brian Waldron uh 9063 South

02:59Wilderwood Lane Memphis Tennessee 381 6.

03:04>> Hi.

03:04>> Uh, I am the director of Caesar at the

03:08University of Memphis, the center for

03:10applied earth science and engineering

03:12research. I have spoken before the

03:14council multiple times before regarding

03:17some groundwater studies that we are

03:19doing for Memphis Light Gas and Water

03:22and uh, city of Memphis.

03:24And uh, I will just give some general

03:27remarks and then be happy to answer any

03:29questions that you have.

03:31>> [clears throat]

03:31>> As you know, we uh get most of our

03:34drinking water and that's also water for

03:37industry and some limited a from the

03:41Memphis aquifer which is our uh largest

03:43aquifer system beneath our feet. We are

03:46known to have some of the best water in

03:48the nation. Uh I recall a comment made

03:52by uh then President Jerry Collins of

03:55MLGW right before he retired. He was

03:59speaking before the council downstairs

04:01in the bigger chamber and he said, you

04:04know, Memphis uh buys its gas from

04:07somewhere else. Memphis buys its

04:09electricity from somewhere else, but

04:10water that's ours, that's our resource

04:13and it is a very precious resource that

04:15we have and it is of extreme quality uh

04:18that we have. The uh groundwater uh

04:23there's two major aspects that people

04:24tend to talk about and that is quantity

04:27and quality.

04:28The quantity of groundwater that we have

04:31uh we estimate to be about 57 trillion

04:34gallons of water beneath our feet uh

04:37just in the Memphis aquifer. And if you

04:40were to pull that water out and put it

04:43on the ground and put a wall around

04:45Shelby County, it would fill up to the

04:47top of the Clark Tower, the roof. So

04:50that is a lot of water that we have. So

04:52it's not a quantity issue that we have

04:54here in Memphis. We have an abundance.

04:57And in my last conversation, the city

04:59council with uh President McGawan with

05:04MLGW,

05:05it was shown that over the last two

05:07decades, MLGW has actually seen a

05:09decline in the quantity of water pulled

05:13for the Memphis aquifer. We're actually

05:15pulling less now, about 30% less. So

05:19that's a great thing. That means our

05:21water levels are coming back up.

05:23Um, so the second topic is quality. And

05:26we do have very high quality uh drinking

05:29water. Like I said, we're known to have

05:31the best water in the nation. I've

05:33mentioned before that our water is about

05:342 to 3,000 years old. It flows through

05:37sand, so it's naturally filtered. And

05:40when we pull it out, we've talked about,

05:43you know, in Homeland Security realm, if

05:45there was a disaster here in Memphis, we

05:47could just put a generator against a

05:49well and drink it straight out of the

05:50ground. We wouldn't have to treat it.

05:52that's how good the water is um for our

05:55citizens. So monitoring its quality is

05:58always important, which is some of the

06:00work that we do. Making sure that

06:02there's any legacy contamination or

06:05future contamination that we address

06:07that quickly before it gets into the

06:08groundwater supply and could impact our

06:11our quality, our drinking water. Um, and

06:14we monitor that both at Caesar and this,

06:18uh, MLGW monitors that through their

06:20water quality lab on a daily basis. So,

06:25um, I think the last comment I'll make

06:28is, you know, the thing that I've seen

06:30in Memphis when it comes down to our

06:33water and how it's used is that's really

06:35the question. What's the best use of the

06:38high quality water, high quality water

06:40that we have? And you know everybody has

06:43their opinion on that. Um so you know

06:48the thing that we promote or that I

06:50suggest is that you know if there is a

06:54concern about the quality of water the

06:57impact to our drinking water supply

06:59there's nothing against asking somebody

07:01to do added monitoring just to make sure

07:04that whatever is going on in their

07:06system is not impacting the groundwater.

07:10And one thing that what that looks like

07:13is taking a sample of the groundwater.

07:16Now that gives you a background. That's

07:18what you got. So that if it stays the

07:21same and stays the same over time, then

07:23there's nothing getting into the system

07:25that you can recognize. But if you see a

07:28change, that gives you an idea of like

07:30what could that be? Could it be from

07:33that entity? Could it be coming from

07:36another entity nearby just flowing

07:38laterally? But without monitoring,

07:40you're never going to know. And

07:43therefore, if there's a quality issue,

07:46and we recommended this on the Bahalia

07:48pipeline project, if that was going to

07:50go in, is do extra monitoring, not the

07:52regular monitoring. Do extra monitoring.

07:55And we suggested what that would be. So,

07:58I think that's my initial comments and

08:01I'm happy to answer questions that you

08:04may have of me.

08:08>> All right. Thank you um council. Yeah,

08:11you're in the queue. Councilwoman White

08:13first in the queue.

08:16>> Thank you um for that information. So

08:19with the additional monitoring, is that

08:22something that has been done anywhere

08:25locally that you know of? Have we done

08:27that before? Required additional

08:29monitoring in in in particular areas

08:31where there may be a concern regarding

08:33quality

08:35>> preemptively in Shelby County? that I

08:38know of.

08:39>> Um, but it has happened with us with

08:41Blue Oval. Um, and the Megaite Authority

08:46who oversees the water availability and

08:50the treatment for that facility, that

08:51area, has asked us to set what we call

08:55sentinel wells to watch and monitor

08:58what's happening so that they can

08:59monitor things going forward. That's the

09:03only case that I know of where they've

09:04done preemptive sentinel monitoring.

09:07>> That's on our aquifer.

09:09>> Yes.

09:10>> Yes. That's on the Memphis aquifer. Yes.

09:13>> And in terms of the quality issue, what

09:18where does that kind of arise? Is it

09:20because of particular usage in a

09:22particular area that may cause more

09:24pressure that will cause sand to go into

09:27the aquifer? Where does the quality

09:29issue come up in terms of water usage?

09:33>> Yes ma'am. Um water quality issues uh

09:36will typically arise in two ways. One

09:40natural water quality changes. We know

09:43that the shallow aquifer, the one that

09:45we do not use, is of a poor quality. And

09:48just through natural physics, how much

09:51water we're pulling out of the Memphis,

09:53uh, that shallow aquifer feeds naturally

09:56into the Memphis aquifer. And therefore,

09:59as draw down is present in the Memphis

10:02aquifer, the shallow aquifer will feed

10:04naturally into the Memphis and change

10:06its water quality. That's natural. The

10:09second one is more man uh created

10:12through pollution through a spill.

10:16Spills occur in two different ways.

10:17Chronic um which means typically over

10:20time over time but those are things you

10:22don't really mon you see

10:25um like underground storage tank that's

10:27leaks. You don't see it. And then

10:29there's an acute spill something that

10:31happened on your property. You see it

10:33you respond to it. You quickly clean it

10:35up. Um both of those situations are

10:38probably the worser of them uh of the

10:42quality issue. And therefore when we

10:44talk about quality, if there is a

10:45concern that something in an industry

10:48could spill, you know, most if they're

10:52typically required to have a response

10:54plan for that and cleaning that up. Uh

10:56it's the chronic ones that worry me.

11:00>> And one last question and I'm done. Um

11:03in terms of the broader conversation um

11:06not even regarding data centers but the

11:09broader conversation of what uses for

11:13our precious aquafer water. Are you

11:16aware of any studies or groups or

11:20committees that are exploring that and

11:24what alternatives for for those uses?

11:27Does that make sense? Has there been any

11:30kind of overall effort to kind of

11:33determine what what what are people

11:37using the water for and what are

11:39reasonable uses and how we need to start

11:42regulating or looking at the way that we

11:44allow aquaer water to be used going

11:46forward.

11:48>> Maybe in a peace mill fashion. I think

11:50that there are studies that go on of how

11:52water is being used. The US Geological

11:54Survey monitors that and breaks up that

11:57water usage um by those different types,

12:01industry, egg, domestic,

12:04um irrigation,

12:07uh things like that. Um when it comes to

12:11being more decisive as to what would we

12:14allow, I do not know of any. That's a

12:18direct study. I think people have a lot

12:20of different opinions and that varies

12:21back and forth. Um

12:25so you know not anything that's like

12:28directly

12:29uh looking at that.

12:32Um as to alternative sources

12:36uh you know we have present I have

12:38presented on those before uh when uh TVA

12:43was looking at its use of Memphis

12:45aquifer water. I think at the time the

12:48idea of using gray water was raised.

12:51There was a concern on their end on

12:52quality.

12:54Um, but history also shows that you can

12:58take a wastewater stream and make it as

13:00good as drinking water standards. Just

13:02nobody wants to drink a glass of water

13:03that used to be waste water.

13:06So, um, but it can be done. You can

13:10treat it to that. Another alternative uh

13:13especially in our area near the

13:15Mississippi River is the fact that you

13:18can put wells in the shallow system and

13:20pull water from the Mississippi River

13:22through the bank and into those wells

13:25and treat that. And uh you're actually

13:28pulling Mississippi River water at that

13:30point. Uh I did look at that for a

13:33different purpose, but in Memphis, the

13:36lowest recorded flow

13:39um going past Memphis for the

13:41Mississippi River was 50 billion gallons

13:43a day. So if you're looking at, you

13:46know, something that needs to pull four

13:48to six million and low water Mississippi

13:50River is 50 billion. It's a drop in the

13:53bucket. So they're all al there are

13:55alternatives.

13:57>> Thank you. That's all I have. Thanks.

13:59>> All right. Councilman Canali joined us

14:02and um Madame Chair Swearing Washington

14:06joined us as well.

14:10Um,

14:14you know, I want to ask some questions.

14:16Sitting here thinking about it. You

14:18mentioned,

14:20do you have any data on the recycling

14:24plant and how that would impact water

14:27like how much volume would flow through

14:29that or how it would impact how much we

14:31would pull out of the aquifer?

14:33>> The gray water.

14:34>> Yeah. I've not looked at it, but you

14:37know, when I was going to school,

14:40um, you know, Memphis puts about 150

14:45million gallons a day of wastewater

14:47stream into the Mississippi River and

14:49it's split half and half, north plant,

14:51south plant. So 75 million. So again, if

14:54you're looking at a 4 to6 million four

14:56to six million gallon a day need and you

14:58got 75 million going as a potential

15:02treatment stream into the Mississippi

15:04River, you have your availability in

15:06that space. It's a really unique

15:08location because cities that use gray

15:12water, one of their biggest issues that

15:14it takes a different piping system. You

15:16don't put gray water inside your clean

15:18water distribution system. You have a

15:20have to have a different one. And the

15:22closer you are to that source of gray

15:24water, the cheaper it is to implement.

15:26You don't have to put in all that

15:28plumbing. So being that these

15:30industries, not just XI, but many of

15:34them in that area or near this potential

15:37stream, the graywater plant could help a

15:40number of industries that may not need

15:42as such a high quality, but again, you

15:44can treat it to drinking water

15:46standards.

15:47>> So council members, as we go through

15:49this together and talk about it in

15:51public. I just think it's worth

15:53mentioning. You know, we started off

15:54talking about planning and zoning.

15:57And forgive me if I'm just restating the

15:59facts, but that's really what I'm hoping

16:01will come out of this like this

16:02conversation. I'm sitting here thinking,

16:05who

16:06enforces, we talked about, you talked

16:08about the Sentinel Wells, and we all

16:11want to protect the aquifer together. We

16:13all care about it. That's why we were

16:14talking about it. Um,

16:17and Ursula, this may be an MLGW

16:19question.

16:20So, if you don't if you don't mind, will

16:22you please join us at the table if you

16:24don't mind, but just as we continue to

16:26talk through this, you know, we talk

16:28about air about water quality and all of

16:30these things and we're talking about

16:32legislation up here. We're going to be

16:33talking about it again tomorrow. Like,

16:35where would protecting the aquafer fall?

16:38Like what? Wish Allen was here. I think

16:40he's coming.

16:41>> Yeah.

16:42So, like what do you happen to know what

16:48laws or regulations we could pass in

16:50instances like this as a body? Like I

16:53mean, if we wanted to test the aquifer

16:55every

16:5730 days as we go down this road together

16:59and move forward, you know, on whatever

17:02it is that we do. Um, any thoughts on

17:04that? That make any sense what I just

17:06said?

17:07>> Ursula Madden, vice president, corporate

17:09communications, Memphis Lake Gas and

17:10Water. Uh I will say that the wastewater

17:13treatment plant that's under development

17:15from space XAI um formerly known as XAI

17:20would um reduce the amount of water

17:23needed from the aquifer by about 10

17:25million gallons per day.

17:26>> Okay.

17:32My understanding too is that this body

17:34received uh a letter directly from the

17:37CEO of SpaceX AAI um reaffirming the

17:41commitment to build that wastewater uh

17:44recycling plant uh starting at the

17:46beginning of 2027.

17:51>> Thank you for mentioning that. I'm

17:53actually going to pull that up.

17:55>> I will also add uh counselor that uh as

17:59uh Mr. Aldron indicated Memphis Light

18:02Gas and Water tests our water from the

18:04aquafer 38,000 times per year.

18:08>> Okay.

18:08>> 38,000 to 40,000 times per year.

18:10>> So 38,000

18:13to 40,000 tests are done per year.

18:16>> It's done daily.

18:18>> Are done daily?

18:18>> Daily.

18:24>> And what are they what what are they

18:26testing daily? They're testing for any

18:28types of contaminants. I can't tell you

18:30specifically, but but um our water

18:33quality lab does that testing

18:36>> and that is one of their sole purposes

18:38is just to test our water to see if

18:40there's any kind of contamination in

18:41there.

18:46>> Not all day, but every day it's tested

18:49every

18:49>> Madam Chair asked if they tested all all

18:52day.

18:5438,000 to 40,000 samples are tested

18:58>> every year.

18:59>> Every year.

19:00>> Okay. Not daily. Okay. Every year.

19:02>> Yeah. But the testing is done

19:04>> on a daily basis. Yes.

19:11>> Uh, Councilman Canali.

19:14>> Thank you. Thank you, [clears throat]

19:15Chairman. Um, Mr. Waldron, you made you

19:19just mentioned something that was very

19:20interesting to me on pulling water from

19:23the Mississippi. So for industries that

19:27won't necessarily be close to the

19:31graywater facility that's going to be

19:33built come back under online as far as

19:35construction goes in 2027.

19:38Do you know anything about per like how

19:39would that what kind of permits you'd

19:41have to have if it was somebody in the

19:44northern part of our city that wanted

19:47there wasn't a graywater facility near

19:49if they wanted to pull water from the

19:51Mississippi. I think that's a I never

19:52even thought about that. That's a really

19:54interesting concept. What they would

19:56have to have as far as permits or

19:58licensing or how would they even go

20:00about that you and that may not be your

20:02area, but

20:03>> um so if you were elsewhere along the

20:06Mississippi River, uh then you would

20:08just need to get a permit to install

20:10your wells. Um and then that's about it.

20:15And then you just pump and go. Um, so

20:19yeah, you would do your permitting

20:21through the Shelby County Health

20:22Department if you're in Shelby County.

20:29>> Uh, I'm trying to pull up that email

20:31that you referenced. Um, and I will pull

20:34that up. Yeah, Jordan. Um, I just want

20:37to read that for the record while we are

20:40all here. Um I if I can mention you you

20:45asked about sentinel wells and yeah

20:47>> getting those in. Um

20:50I don't know the legality of coming from

20:53a you know the council body but there is

20:56the Shobi County groundwater quality

20:58control board and it is through the

21:00health department. It has members from

21:02each of the major utilities um driller

21:05and some ad hoc members and they it is a

21:08legal body and they do um look at uh the

21:13drilling that's going on and they do set

21:15permits and stuff like that. So that

21:17could be one body that could look into

21:21that.

21:26All right, I'm gonna

21:28share some of that email here in a

21:30second. Actually, I'll just read it uh

21:32for the record, but I have a one quick

21:34question. You just mentioned that. So

21:36when a data center comes to town, if you

21:38don't mind, or if they in the past when

21:41a data center comes to town, we could

21:44you explain Ursula what that looks like

21:47for us and just for the public like they

21:50don't

21:52from an aquafer standpoint, from a TVA

21:54standpoint, they're not here today. I

21:55wish they were, but um could you just

21:58maybe explain like who the maybe they

21:59called first for all of us and how

22:02because they didn't, you know, call us.

22:03Um and that's Yeah, just if you could

22:06walk through that with that.

22:08>> Uh, sure. Let me just first say too, uh,

22:10I apologize. President McGowan is

22:12actually on the other side of the state

22:14on MLGW business today, which is why I'm

22:16here.

22:17>> So, I will, uh, do my best to sort of

22:20walk you through the process. But, if

22:22somebody is seeking power for us from

22:25us, the first thing I'd have to say is

22:27that we have to make sure that we have

22:29availability

22:31and um, are able to supply that power.

22:34So we have to do a system impact study.

22:36Our first responsibility is to our

22:38existing customers. So we cannot add

22:41load to our grid if we cannot um if it

22:45negatively impacts our existing

22:47customers. So our primary responsibility

22:50is for reliability

22:52um availability and affordability. Uh we

22:55do a system impact study. anything over

22:58five megawws, we do a system impact

23:01study and TVA does a system impact study

23:04to make sure that they can supply that

23:05power. It takes months sometimes to do

23:08that, maybe up to a year. Um after that

23:12uh there's a discussion about depending

23:13on how much they're asking for um we

23:16will then do a facility study which

23:19would require the company that is asking

23:22for the large load of power to actually

23:25pay for all the infrastructure that

23:29would be required to serve that entity.

23:32>> Hey, can I can I interrupt real quick?

23:34Not just data centers, right? This is

23:35all businesses.

23:37>> No, not all businesses. Okay.

23:39>> So, we're talking about industrial,

23:41commercial, industrial.

23:43>> Um, so before XAI came in here, we were

23:46already serving 14 data centers.

23:49>> Some of those data centers were required

23:50to um some of those businesses were

23:53required to um do um facilities upgrades

23:57to upgrade our infrastructure and they

23:59paid for that.

23:59>> Okay.

24:01>> Um so, and we do the same thing with

24:03water and gas. So, if you need a

24:07different size pipe for the gas than the

24:09gas line that's already in there because

24:11you require so much CCF, then you would

24:15have to pay for those upgrades.

24:16>> Okay.

24:16>> I I feel like MLGW was doing the

24:19rateayer protection plan for the

24:21blueprint.

24:21>> Yeah.

24:22>> We were doing it before

24:23>> the federal government started talking

24:25about it before it was made into a law

24:27here in Tennessee.

24:32>> And uh You know, I really we're I'm

24:35gonna try to I'm gonna ask TVA to come

24:38back. I mean, we're going to have a

24:39couple more of these meetings. Um

24:41because I wish they could be here

24:42because I feel like when I saw

24:45>> Well, I'll save questions for for them.

24:47Um

24:48>> well, I don't want to speak on behalf of

24:51TV

24:51>> and I wouldn't want to ask you to do

24:52that,

24:52>> but but they do have a new data center

24:55rate that they are applying. So, and

24:58those costs are paid upfront. So, if you

25:01are serious about coming in and adding

25:04load to um their system, our system, um

25:08TVA is now saying per megawatt it's

25:11$1.52 million.

25:13>> And I see that as a community benefit.

25:16You know, Dr. Warren's got something

25:17coming up tomorrow. We all had I had a

25:19community benefit deal and the you know,

25:21there we've all been talking about a

25:22community benefits type agreement. And I

25:24feel like what TVA has done, what you

25:27just referenced, is something like that.

25:30Would that be fair to say that they're

25:32not here? We'll save that for [laughter]

25:34>> I think it would be fair to ask them.

25:36>> Yeah. And I think this body, you know,

25:38um as we listen to everything

25:40everybody's saying today, those are

25:41things that we're trying to

25:43>> Can I just add to counselor? Uh so

25:47>> we have those existing guard rails. We

25:49do the same thing for water and gas as I

25:51said, but we're also looking at

25:53different for data centers when it comes

25:56to our water. So, we're going to propose

25:59a new data center class when we come to

26:02budget uh in a couple weeks here that

26:05will be uh data centers in a class by

26:07themselves um being charged for water

26:09usage.

26:10>> Let me ask you this

26:13because I've heard it from so many.

26:17Will Councilman Canali's uh MLGW bills

26:22increase

26:24because of data centers?

26:27>> No, no one's rates will increase because

26:30of data centers. Again, as I said, they

26:32pay for their own infrastructure.

26:35So, that cost is never passed on to

26:39you or me at home or to any of our other

26:42business commercial or industrial

26:44commercial uh customers. It's there is

26:47no um cost because they are paying for

26:50their they're paying their way.

26:54Okay.

26:58Um, council members, any questions,

27:01comments?

27:04Oh, we've got I'm so sorry. The

27:06Councilwoman Logan is online and she's

27:08probably been in the queue for like 10

27:09minutes and I didn't even see it.

27:10Councilwoman Logan, you are recognized.

27:17Um, yes. I was in the queue earlier, but

27:21I have to circle back to remember what

27:22the question was.

27:25>> All right. You want me to come back to

27:26you?

27:29>> Please.

27:30>> We'll come back. We'll come back to you,

27:31Councilman Warren.

27:34>> Thank you. Um, thanks for this

27:36information on both of those things, the

27:39water quality, etc. Um there's been a

27:42lot of sort of misinformation or fear

27:46out there based on how these work. And I

27:49think part of it is is they were thrown

27:51on us without us really understanding or

27:54having any ability to do anything about

27:58what's occurring. I guess my question is

28:01more to you know what sort of controls

28:06would you recommend as far as wells are

28:08concerned because right now the wells

28:11and the digging of the wells as a county

28:13water issue and what can we as a city do

28:17that would help the county be able to

28:20get the type of monitoring you guys want

28:23as far as MLG&W's concerned and also as

28:26far as Cesar would be that's one

28:28question. Second question is, we know

28:31we've got toxins in the ground right now

28:34and depending upon the rate at which

28:37we're withdrawing fluid or liquid from

28:40the aquifer, the deep aquifer, that

28:43shallow aquifer is heading there. What

28:45you said today that scared me a little

28:46bit was even without us drawing that

28:49water, that shallow aquifer is heading

28:50there. So, if we don't get the toxins

28:53out of the ground and do remediation,

28:56how long before we actually contaminate

28:59our aquifer here? And do you have any

29:02idea about what that's like in the rest

29:04of the aquifer environment because it's

29:06one of the largest ones in the country?

29:09That's first.

29:12Take the second question.

29:16>> Okay. So second question first uh

29:20related to just the natural progression

29:22of water from the shallower down to the

29:24Memphis and the threat of contamination.

29:28This gets back to a comment that was

29:30made at the last uh meeting which is in

29:32our current study. We have uh tried to

29:36work with the Shelby County Health

29:37Department to um get access to their

29:41data uh regarding private wells

29:45um such that uh we could through their

29:48efforts um monitor the water quality in

29:51these private wells as sentinel wells

29:54before they hit a production well. What

29:56that does is it lets us know before

29:58anything does hit a production well, but

29:59also lets the citizen know something's

30:01happening in their well. Um and with

30:04possibly 600 private wells out there

30:07that could give us a good network for

30:09monitoring the groundwater system.

30:11Additionally, as we look for we're under

30:14the second phase of this aquatard study,

30:17you know, the third we feel like would

30:19be more infrastructure related which is

30:21more monetary. So we think that that's

30:22something that needs to happen in the

30:24next phase.

30:26um

30:28[clears throat] with

30:30the first question

30:32and the first question was what again?

30:36What was the first question? First

30:38question was

30:39uh as we're looking at

30:42how we're uh gosh I'm I'm blanking on

30:46the first question back uh it had to do

30:49with um the the use of the groundwater

30:56from our entire aquifer and any

30:59contamination that could occur other

31:01places. How would that affect us here?

31:04If it would say someone in County is

31:06contaminating, someone in Typton County

31:08is contaminating,

31:09>> how long does it take for that to get

31:11into the aquifer? If it gets down into

31:13the actual Memphis aquifer,

31:15>> okay, so in our current study that we're

31:17doing for MLGW in the city of Memphis,

31:20we have determined uh at one particular

31:23location, we're monitoring five others

31:24around Shelby County as to how quickly a

31:27contaminant from the grass gets to the

31:29water table. That would be the shallow

31:31aquifer. When the student came in, we

31:34jokingly but seriously said, you know,

31:36you may start your research, but you may

31:37never know. It could just take forever.

31:40And during a wet season, it took three

31:42weeks. So, pretty quick for something to

31:44get in. So, when I spoke about acute

31:48contamination, something that happens

31:49real quick or chronic. Um, acute used to

31:52be, oh, you can see it, take care of it.

31:55It's like, no, you need to really take

31:56care of it. Um, so it does get in quick.

31:59Once it's in the system, it moves slow.

32:02So if you were a drop of water and you

32:04left that wall and you wanted to get to

32:06that wall in the Memphis aquifer in

32:08places, it will take one year to go from

32:10that wall to that wall. That's how slow

32:12it goes

32:14>> sideways. So it is really slow. Um and

32:19therefore, uh this is why we have been

32:22studying the potential for legacy

32:24contamination things from the 40s, 50s,

32:2660s,7s getting into the system, which is

32:29where we digitized all the yellow pages

32:32to 1999 from 1940 and mapped all these

32:36potential sources, 14,000 potential

32:38contamination sources. And we've put

32:41those in the auer. We're saying asking

32:43the computer to tell us where do you go?

32:46And then from that we can look and see

32:48any of those. This is countywide. So

32:51then we can say well of those plumes one

32:54of them hit a well. Do we we talk to

32:57Emerald GW and we say do you see

32:58anything in the well? They say no. Okay

33:01then that that's not happening. You know

33:03there's not a breach that let that in or

33:05something. Um if there's a contaminant

33:08plume that isn't hasn't reached a well

33:10MLGW won't know but we also don't know.

33:13That goes back to the comment of trying

33:14to work with the health department to

33:16get access to 600 private wells so we

33:19can monitor in between like a potential

33:22source in the well field, you know. So,

33:26it's a group effort. It's concerted

33:27effort to try to get this done, but

33:29that's the only way that we can really

33:30get at it. Um, it just moves real slow.

33:34And I guess the next question is how do

33:36the data centers that we have and

33:38potential data centers that we have, how

33:41will they affect this if they're if the

33:44regulation requires them to use closed

33:47loop systems?

33:51Will they be uh will they somehow cause

33:55our aquifer to be more radically

33:58contaminated if they're using a closed

34:00loop system or required to use recycled

34:04water?

34:09>> Well,

34:09>> there's a lot that goes into that. Um I

34:12mean you could pick what could happen or

34:14not.

34:16>> We've talked about the idea of a closed

34:17loose loop system before.

34:20And the idea would be is that you could

34:23pull water possibly from the deeper part

34:26of the Memphis aquifer, put it through

34:28the system, it would be heated up, and

34:30then you got to put it down through the

34:32upper part of the Memphis aquifer.

34:34Therefore, you don't create a heat

34:36exchange system. But we don't know what

34:38would happen with a heated water going

34:40into the Memphis aquifer. Um, and our

34:44suggestion at that time to the company

34:46was you need to do a study before you

34:48put heat back into the aquifer if that's

34:51the closed return to know what impact

34:54that could have to the aquifer system.

34:57Um, I've seen uh data where there are

35:03closed loop systems in California where

35:06they're taking water out of, you know,

35:09natural rivers that are federally

35:11protected and putting the water back in.

35:14And the systems that are available now

35:17cause a 0.1 degree Fahrenheit change in

35:20the temperature when they're putting it

35:23back into into the water. So I guess my

35:26question is based on what happens

35:29underground and sort of the temperature

35:32sink that's there, does it seem likely

35:35to you that that type of system that

35:39raises the temperature degree a tenth of

35:42a degree would make a difference as it

35:44goes into a deep underground heat sink?

35:49>> No. Um but you would be cooling the

35:52water. You don't put water against a a

35:55hot system and it only changed by a

35:57tenth of a degree. That water is being

36:00cooled before it gets back to its

36:02>> it's cooled like they're their closely

36:04systems are doing that now. That's

36:06certainly what they're supposed to be

36:07doing.

36:08>> Take it off the system, let it cool

36:10itself, and then drop it back down into

36:12the system. Yes.

36:14>> So, that would be something that would

36:16be needed if we're going to try that.

36:18That you need that sort of cooling prior

36:20to put it back in.

36:22>> I would suggest So, yes.

36:23>> Okay. So, so as we're doing regulations,

36:25>> that's it.

36:26>> Okay. So, that's that's what what we're

36:28looking for, things that we need to be

36:29able to put into the regulations that

36:31make it work.

36:32>> So, it's not going back in unless it is

36:36been cooled to that sort of degree.

36:38Correct.

36:39>> To a level degree. If it's 0.1, maybe

36:42that's it. Could it be warmer? You'd

36:45have to do a study to know.

36:47>> Has any studies like that been done

36:49anywhere in the country that you know

36:50of?

36:52Not that I know of, but every aquifer

36:53system's different. Um, we have actually

36:56questioned that ourselves. So, in our

36:58current study with Memphis Light, Gas

37:00and Water in the city of Memphis, we are

37:02starting to put temperature sensors down

37:04our certain monitoring wells at depth to

37:08understand what the temperature ranges

37:10are within the aquifer system. There's

37:11only one known study in Shelby County by

37:13the USGS back in I think the 1990s that

37:17had a profile, but we are looking at

37:19that uh temperature profile within the

37:22aquifer system.

37:24>> And when do you think you'll have your

37:26information after your when's your study

37:29projected to give its first data

37:33>> from the shallow part of the aquifer,

37:35the upper one/ird where we have more

37:37monitoring? Maybe a couple in the

37:39middle. Um, it would be probably six

37:44plus months to get some original data.

37:47>> So, I'd say we're going to need some of

37:49that data to be able to do it. And as we

37:52do our uh ordinances, okay, we may need

37:56to have a section in this that says

38:01>> this is going to be our variance that

38:03we'll allow. If it's more than that

38:06blank, what's the next step we have? You

38:08have to stop. we have to cool it

38:10further. So, we want to be able to bring

38:13that back to where as I take it, you're

38:16not monitoring the water anywhere near a

38:18major data center right now. Do you have

38:20any wells that are near data center that

38:22you're able to get your data from?

38:25Anything near the places down there,

38:27White Haven?

38:31>> I'd have to look

38:32>> because I'm thinking no gotcha

38:34questions.

38:37This is not gotcha. This this is like

38:39I'm we're working this together. We're

38:41working trying to figure this out

38:42together. And part of what I'm saying is

38:44one of the things that's going to help

38:45us do a better job protecting stuff is

38:47if we've got you out there being able to

38:50give us real time data on what's

38:52happening under the ground. And that

38:56will help provide citizens with the

38:58understanding that this stuff is not

39:01just happening. We're we're monitoring.

39:03We're making sure it's going to it's

39:04going to go right. Uh so uh if you don't

39:08have any wells out there and we have

39:10some MLG&W wells that could be made

39:12available for this information. It might

39:14be worthwhile for us to get that data.

39:19>> I can't make that kind of commitment.

39:20>> No, you can't do that. But you can you

39:22can say you can carry that up upstream.

39:25Right.

39:26>> Okay. That's all that's all I want.

39:28>> All right.

39:29>> Thank you, Mr. Chair.

39:30>> Thanks, Council Councilman Warren. I

39:32wanted to go back to this uh letter that

39:36Ursula [snorts]

39:38uh referenced. I'm not going to read the

39:40whole letter, but um I don't know. I

39:43mean, I want the public to see this. I

39:45think everybody has, but if not, here it

39:47is. So, again, I'm not going to read the

39:49whole letter, but to quote, you said 8

39:52million

39:54uh gallons per day.

39:55>> 10 million.

39:56>> 10 million. Okay. Uh SpaceX is committed

39:59to the residents of the city of Memphis.

40:00We hope this formal notification to the

40:02city council will make that commitment

40:04clear. SpaceX is investing 280 million

40:07at no cost to the city of Memphis in a

40:09clean water recycling plant designed to

40:11process up to 10 million gallons of

40:12waste water a day or 10 times that which

40:16SpaceX AI consumes and offset more than

40:193.6 billion gallons a year from the

40:21Memphis uh aquifer.

40:26>> So by contract at that site, SpaceX AI

40:29is allowed to 1.28

40:32million gallons per day.

40:37>> The SpaceX AAI clean water recycling

40:41plant now moving forward in a

40:42partnership with TVA will bring to

40:44fruition the idea that was conceived a

40:46decade ago.

40:48We are not aware of any other corporate

40:50effort in the country to finance the

40:52development of such a critical facility.

40:55Um, there's a whole lot in here and I'm

40:57just going to stop there, but I'll leave

40:59it here.

41:01And uh, yeah. So, thank you for for

41:06referencing that. Councilman Warren,

41:08you're done.

41:09>> I am. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

41:10>> Councilwoman Logan, you were left behind

41:1320 minutes ago. Sorry. Councilwoman

41:15Logan, if you [clears throat] want to

41:17speak, go for it.

41:18>> No problem. Thank you, Chair. Uh my

41:21question is regarding the conversation

41:23earlier about um what would happen. I

41:26think Councilman Canali mentioned it

41:28about those areas in the north that are

41:32not near um the area we were talking

41:35about but are near the river I mean

41:38Mississippi River. So, I heard you say,

41:41and this is to the speaker, that

41:44they would only uh companies would only

41:47have to or data centers would only have

41:49to receive a permit

41:53from the county to dig a well and then

41:57they can begin

41:59um from there. they don't have there

42:01aren't any checks and balances or guard

42:05rails or policies or anything in place

42:07um other than that. I wanted to make

42:11sure that's what I heard. And if that's

42:13the case, if that was what was said, is

42:18MLG&W

42:20um anywhere in that um process in terms

42:24of the oversight or the first line of

42:28defense. I know earlier um President

42:31McGawan had mentioned that anyone that

42:33wants to open up a data center had to

42:36come to MLG&W. So, I wanted to make sure

42:40I'm hearing the right thing and if this

42:44is apples to apples or something else,

42:46but let me know if you could kind of

42:49elaborate on your comment about uh D has

42:52only had to get a permit for the whale.

42:58>> Um, I'll be brief because luckily the

43:01Shelby County Health Department has uh

43:03pulled up to the chairs. they'll know

43:05better that um I think that there's a

43:09new rule within the last year or two

43:11about putting in a new well versus

43:14what's available uh through MLGW first.

43:17So I'll let health I'll defer to the

43:19health department

43:21>> names addresses

43:23>> Casey Smith Alexander deputy director

43:26814 Jefferson Avenue

43:29>> Dr. Bruce Randolph, interim director,

43:32Shelby County Health Department, 814

43:35Jefferson Avenue.

43:38>> So, in order for anyone to begin

43:40drilling in Shelby County, they must

43:43submit a permit first. One of the first

43:45questions that we ask is, "Do you have

43:47access to MLGW?" If they do have access

43:51to MLGW, they are automatically denied

43:54at that point in time. Yes. So then they

43:57have to go before the groundwater board

43:59to say why they should have a well on

44:02their property if they have access to

44:05MLGW. Sometimes we do get agricultural

44:08requests because they want the water to

44:10be a certain chemical. So we have to

44:13give that some kind of thought. Um and

44:15then sometimes it depends on the depth

44:17of which they want to have the wells

44:20drawn that it does go before the

44:22groundwater board. As stated by Dr.

44:24Waldron, we do have every municipality

44:27on this board that's represented in some

44:29form or fashion and we also have in in

44:32people from industry well drillers that

44:34are there to cast information as well as

44:37the health department environmental

44:38health section to provide additional

44:41information. Normally we can make

44:43sometimes decisions the day of and then

44:46sometimes we require additional

44:48information in order for a decision to

44:51be rendered whether a permit will be

44:53given to that individual or not. Um I

44:56know the question was asked by Dr.

44:57Warren about um wells in the area like

45:02Space XAI. Just to give you an example,

45:04TVA has eight wells that are permitted

45:06by the Shelby County Health Department,

45:08which is in close proximity that we do

45:10monitor and we do test for. So, we do

45:13test for total caulifform, total

45:16dissolved solids, pH, and nitrates when

45:19we do test those water wells. So, just

45:21wanted to let you know on that. And I am

45:23waiting for the numbers for White Haven.

45:27>> You say waiting for the numbers, what do

45:28you mean?

45:29Just waiting to see how many wells that

45:31we do have or might have in the White

45:33Haven area.

45:33>> Okay. So, do you happen to know and I'm

45:36sorry, Councilwoman Logan, you were you

45:39know, you're here virtually, so I'm just

45:41interrupting you. Go ahead, Councilwoman

45:42Logan.

45:44>> Yeah. Well, I I wanted to make sure that

45:46I understood. So at what I'm hearing is

45:48for those that want to dig a well, they

45:52would go through this board and the

45:56board authorizes yes or no if that. But

45:59if they have access to MLG&W, it's

46:02automatic no and they have to go back to

46:03MLGW and then that process starts. But

46:06if it's a

46:09if it's a no, then they just go through

46:11this board and the board begins to ask

46:14questions and they do their own vetting.

46:16Is that correct?

46:17>> Okay. So, this is Casey again with the

46:19health department. Um, yes and no to

46:21what you said. So, if anyone wants to

46:24begin drilling, they have to go before

46:26the health department.

46:29Depending on where they're located, it

46:31will determine if yes, they can get a

46:34permit or not. And it's not just as

46:35simple as a yes or no. In order to get a

46:38permit, we also have to look at land,

46:41how the land flow is. Are you in a flood

46:43zone as well? Are you next to a sewer

46:46tank? Those kind of things. How far are

46:49you from a gas station? Again, we are

46:51looking at anything that can penetrate

46:53the aquifer itself. So, we have to look

46:56at all of those things before a permit

46:58is issued. So, if we do deny a permit,

47:03then they do have the right to go to the

47:06groundwater board to appeal our decision

47:09to say no. I hope that clarified it.

47:14>> Can I just Can I just add

47:16>> But in terms of

47:19um in terms Can you hear me?

47:22>> Yes, Councilwoman. Go ahead.

47:24>> Hello.

47:25>> Hear you.

47:26>> I was I was okay. I um that that

47:30clarified it. Um

47:33but I still will have some questions

47:35later. I'm just going to process what

47:37they said, but thank you for for that.

47:38That clarified it.

47:41>> All right, Ursula. You had a comment.

47:42>> Thank you, Chair. Go back.

47:44>> I just want to remind everybody that

47:46MLGW is not the only water company in

47:50Shelby County.

47:53>> Expound, please. Well, I'm just saying

47:55the statement was made that if you do

47:59not have access to MLGW water, then you

48:02are automatically denied, but Bartlett,

48:05Millington,

48:07Arlington, Collierville, they they all

48:09have their own water systems.

48:10>> Thank you. Yeah, thank you for saying

48:12that.

48:13>> We're all like learning and going

48:15through this together publicly. So,

48:16thank you.

48:16>> Well, I I I bring that up because I

48:18think MLGW

48:20because we're so prominent here and

48:22everybody does use our services in some

48:25capacity. They forget that there are

48:27other um entities out there that do

48:29supply water.

48:30>> Thank you. Similar to us, people come,

48:33you know,

48:35um Councilman Canali.

48:38>> Thank you, Chairman. [clears throat] Um

48:42Councilman Spinos had asked about, you

48:44know, when people say there's a lot of

48:46misinformation out there about their

48:47rates going up because of data centers,

48:49and you explained that we don't that the

48:51the rateayers don't for their

48:53infrastructure. They have to pay for

48:54their own. But with the increased load,

48:59that's why TVA created a data center

49:01rate. So they're paying for the excess.

49:03So it really is not driving up the price

49:06for homeowners

49:08uh for residential rate payers because

49:10they are in a different category.

49:12>> They're in a different category. and the

49:16rates that they're paying up front, the

49:17cost that they're paying up front, that

49:19$1.52 million per megawatt,

49:22>> [clears throat]

49:22>> um it pays for about 30% of what they

49:27will need and then they collect the rest

49:29um through billing.

49:31>> Okay.

49:31>> Yeah. And then uh just so that everybody

49:34understands and I know that we've gone

49:36over this but so space XAI when they

49:40finish their graywater facility and say

49:43they need capacity of 2 million gallons

49:45a day but it has capacity of 10

49:49>> they can so they would sell their

49:54resources to TVA Newor Valero anyone

49:57that's

49:58>> anyone who's interested that would be my

50:00understanding yes so they could pick

50:01their 1.28 million or you know since

50:05they're pumping it maybe more if they

50:08needed it but um they could sell the

50:11rest. Yeah.

50:11>> And that's a relationship that is

50:13established between the two parties. Not

50:14>> that would be different parties. That

50:16wouldn't be MLGW.

50:18>> Gotcha. Okay. Thank you, Chairman.

50:20>> All right. Thank you, Councilman Canali.

50:22Councilwoman Walker,

50:30please

50:33hear that beautiful.

50:34>> Thank you.

50:38So,

50:39and whoever can who whoever would like

50:42to respond to this that would be fine.

50:44But as it relates to renewable energy

50:46alternatives, from a scientific and

50:49engineering perspective, what renewable

50:51energy and energy storage technologies

50:55could, shall I say, realistically um

50:59reduce the reliance of hypers scale data

51:02centers on n natural gas generation as

51:06well as water

51:08usage.

51:14Well, I think the reduction in water

51:17usage has been talked about with the

51:20gray water treatment plant that's being

51:22built. Um, I will say that

51:27uh the large industrial and uh

51:30commercial customers and data centers

51:34are all part uh take part in a um power

51:39interruption plan.

51:42to ensure that um

51:46when there is stress on the grid because

51:49of usage, they have to bring uh they

51:52have to come off of the grid. And in

51:55those cases, they would probably use

51:57some sort of backup generation,

52:00maybe natural gas. Um but

52:05behind the meter we can't determine what

52:08they use for their backup generation.

52:11>> Um can you share what behind the meter

52:14means?

52:15>> So

52:17they have their own source of power.

52:19It's just like if you bought a generator

52:21for your home behind the meter. So if

52:24they are forced to reduce power because

52:26TVA is saying we've got too much stress

52:29on the grid. we need you to come off. Um

52:32then they would find another way to

52:34power their computers.

52:36>> Okay. Thank you for that. And my other

52:38question, um a few times since I've been

52:43here on the council and as recently as

52:45this summer, we've, you know, heard

52:47reports on breaches in the clay. And my

52:52question is, um are there any of these

52:56breaches close to data centers?

53:00close to um the Paul Li location or the

53:04two-lane location or any data centers in

53:07the area.

53:09Um for the Ensley Bottoms area, there

53:14are

53:17two known breaches, two in the area. Um,

53:21one of them is near TVA,

53:24uh, and then one of them is to the

53:27south, uh, east toward Horn Lake Cutoff.

53:32Um,

53:34and that's at least what we've

53:37identified.

53:39Um, we have

53:41investigations going on in the area,

53:43always trying to find if there are any

53:46additional ones uh that we've not

53:48observed. As to the one near two lane, I

53:52do not know um not to my knowledge. Um

53:56that we've actually suspected or

53:58identified. Uh but you know, the studies

54:02we do are always continuing. Uh as I

54:05mentioned in my last meeting here, you

54:07know, we found just in the last two

54:09years, uh 13 plus new suspected breaches

54:14uh just through our research that we're

54:16doing now. So, um, you know, every time

54:20we look at it, we find something.

54:22>> Okay. Thank you. I yield the floor.

54:25>> Thank you, Councilwoman.

54:26>> Can I just add really quickly?

54:28>> I want to just say that the breaches are

54:31naturally occurring. I don't want to

54:33make I don't want it to say to me, it

54:35always sounds when I hear breaches, it

54:36always sounds like

54:37>> catastrophic.

54:38>> It's some sort of really catastrophic.

54:41It's been caused by

54:43a man-made issue. But these breaches are

54:47naturally occurring,

54:49>> right?

54:50>> Yes, ma'am.

54:51>> Okay.

54:52>> Thank you. Thank you for saying that.

54:54Um, and again, I said I wasn't going to

54:57read this letter. Now I'm getting texts

54:58and I'm not going to read the whole

54:59letter,

55:00>> but I want to read this because I think

55:01it I mean, it needs to be it needs to be

55:03said and I want people to see and if

55:04people have seen this already, then

55:06forgive me, but like I think this is

55:08worth noting. It says earlier this

55:09month, again, this was dated September

55:1114th, 2026. It was sent to council

55:14members. Um

55:16earlier this month, SpaceX AI

55:18leadership, excuse me, I'm

55:22SpaceX continue critical preparatory

55:24work before vertical construction of the

55:26clean water recycling plant, including

55:28piling and foundation work and work on

55:30the water tank. SP Space XI's also spent

55:3380 million on equipment for the CWRP.

55:36Earlier this month, which was September,

55:39SpaceX leadership confirmed to the city

55:41of Memphis and Memphis Light Gas and

55:42Water leadership that work on the

55:45facility would recommence no later than

55:47January 2027. We hereby reaffirm this to

55:50the city council. So, I'm glad you

55:53mentioned

55:55that that letter and it there it is. Um,

55:59councilman Canali, did you want to say

56:01something?

56:02>> I just had a quick question. Um, and you

56:04may have mentioned it already, but Is

56:06[clears throat] there a threshold for um

56:09the amount of usage where they are

56:11required to sign the demand response

56:14where they have to come off first or

56:16they have to come off

56:21>> I'm sorry I don't know the answer to

56:23that.

56:23>> Okay. Um but

56:25>> but major power users

56:28>> yes

56:29>> have to they're required to sign that

56:33they

56:33>> they have an agreement

56:34>> and they have to have their own backup

56:35whether it's batteries or

56:37>> they don't have to have their own backup

56:39>> if they want to stay

56:40>> if they want to keep operating. Yes. But

56:42they they have to if they are asked to

56:45curtail then they need to curtail.

56:48>> Okay.

56:49And they are asked to curtail by

56:52>> TVA. Okay.

56:55>> Or they can be asked by us.

56:57>> Okay.

56:57>> At TVA.

56:58>> Yeah. And that's where if Allan was

57:00here, like I would I would want to ask

57:01her, can we do that? Can we put that

57:03into our Right. I mean, these are all

57:05things we're trying to figure out

57:06together. So, make a note of that.

57:08Obviously,

57:08>> quick question on that.

57:09>> Yeah. Go ahead, Councilman War.

57:11>> What if they don't What is the Is it a

57:14$50 fine? What What's the What's the

57:16situation if they don't do it?

57:19It's I mean it's not in their interest

57:22not to do it because ultimately we can

57:25turn them off.

57:27>> But I mean so you could turn them off

57:30but how is that written in the contract

57:32and

57:32>> No, we we can cut them off.

57:34>> You So just MLG&W just flicks the switch

57:37and they go off

57:38>> like somebody's power goes out the house

57:40for not paying their bill.

57:41>> So it's not like we have there's not a

57:43fine or anything. It's just we're going

57:44to flip them.

57:46>> Yeah. They wouldn't want that, I would

57:48think, for their for their business.

57:50Anybody would want that for their

57:51business.

57:52>> No. Thank you.

57:54>> Um, Councilwoman White,

58:02>> I was just going to say I was looking at

58:04the time because I was saying I

58:05appreciated the the commentary, but it

58:08seems like we're kind of getting into

58:10what may be what the study needs to do.

58:13uh kind of going into this deep dive

58:15about the aquafer and all those things.

58:16And of course, I want to hear from um

58:18Dr. Randolph and Shelby County, but I

58:21was just going to say I'm hoping that at

58:22some point we get to kind of delving

58:24back into these different ordinances to

58:26try to see if we can come up with a

58:29direction and path forward prior to

58:31tomorrow. So, I don't know where we're

58:34looking on time and kind of what

58:35[clears throat] other things we're going

58:36to have presented to us. I just didn't

58:38want us to go too deep into the weeds of

58:41the thing.

58:42>> Yep. because that's the thing that we're

58:43going to need to spend a lot of time on.

58:46Um is kind of going through these

58:47nuances, talking to experts, and putting

58:49these things into context. For me, I'm

58:51generally just I'm really concerned

58:53about kind of where we're going tomorrow

58:55with the five different ordinances,

58:57whether we've reached some kind of

58:59consensus as to how they overlap or

59:01don't. Um whether we'll be voting on

59:03five different ordinances, um and those

59:06kinds of things. But of course, like,

59:07you know, I defer to you. I just wanted

59:09>> I'm hoping that at some point we kind of

59:12delve into that a little bit before we

59:14go into tomorrow.

59:15>> I appreciate that and we could totally

59:17do that. Um I think my hope and I think

59:21what we we again I don't disagree with

59:23what you said but I do want these

59:25hearings to be more than us debating

59:29um a moratorum or not because the work

59:32has to be done and so I you know if the

59:34mayor and his team actually I spoke with

59:36the mayor this morning he's very excited

59:39um about the study I appreciate his

59:40study I think we can do it together and

59:42your son's awesome down there doing some

59:44work but um but um yeah the I I

59:48appreciate everyone taking the time to

59:50be here today and talk through all this.

59:51Yeah, Councilwoman, I agree with you. We

59:54got to vote tomorrow, but regardless of

59:56where it goes. I I certainly appreciate

59:58this time and I know you do too, us

1:00:00asking these questions and getting the

1:00:01answers in public. Um, Councilman

1:00:04Warren.

1:00:05>> So, on that point that we've got a vote

1:00:07tomorrow and how we're looking, you

1:00:09know, one of the things we have to

1:00:10remember about voting is that we need a

1:00:14structure in place that is going to

1:00:17allow us to monetize data centers as

1:00:19they come in and cause disruption to

1:00:23jobs and, you know, to our economy and,

1:00:26you know, not just to our natural

1:00:28resources.

1:00:30And right now there is no mechanism that

1:00:33allows us to do that without us asking

1:00:36the state to change laws. So we have to

1:00:39be able to have something that we're

1:00:41going to send to the state to request

1:00:43them to be able to change these laws

1:00:46that allow us to be able to monetize

1:00:48those. So with or without a moratorum,

1:00:52without anything else, we know that we

1:00:54need to be moving that sort of thing

1:00:57forward. Has nothing to do with a

1:00:59moratorum. It's an enabling legislation

1:01:02that will allow us at some point to be

1:01:04able to monetize this. So I think we've

1:01:06got to be able to pull out as we're

1:01:08looking at this and realize that we've

1:01:10got regulations that we want to make

1:01:13this safe, but we also have things that

1:01:16we're going to need from other places.

1:01:18That's time sensitive and if we don't do

1:01:22something to take that to the state to

1:01:24where we're they're we're asking please

1:01:27state help us here. If we don't get it

1:01:29there'll be people at the state that are

1:01:32going to go well these guys can't get

1:01:34their act together. We're just going to

1:01:35take this money for the state and we'll

1:01:36figure out what they need.

1:01:38>> Okay. I don't really think if there's a

1:01:40way we could be able to do this on our

1:01:42own and and control it in some way that

1:01:46would work best for us. We may want to

1:01:48do that prior to asking the state to

1:01:51have to do it. They got plenty to do at

1:01:52the state level without having to do

1:01:54that for us if we can do it for

1:01:55ourselves.

1:01:56>> Yeah.

1:01:56>> Thank you. I know you're bringing up

1:01:57something tomorrow we'll talk about at

1:01:58council.

1:02:00>> Um I have a question. Well, actually,

1:02:02excuse me. We got Councilwoman

1:02:04Walker in the queue next. Council,

1:02:08>> thank you. um to the health department.

1:02:12What types of environmental data do you

1:02:14all collect and or should we be

1:02:17collecting to determine whether

1:02:18residents living near data centers and

1:02:21associated power generation facilities

1:02:24face increased exposure to air pollution

1:02:28or other environmental hazards.

1:02:36So the environmental health department

1:02:38is a regulatory agency. So we go out and

1:02:42collect numerous data and also

1:02:44investigate complaints of issues. So in

1:02:48reference to air quality data, we do

1:02:51have six air monitoring stations located

1:02:54throughout Shelby County that collects

1:02:56data for us every day. 365 that we do

1:03:01make sure that it is in with

1:03:02regulations. If it is not, that is when

1:03:05you hear us called a code orange day. We

1:03:08haven't had any hopefully any code red

1:03:10or purple, but that's when the air

1:03:12quality is really at its pores. Most of

1:03:15the time it is a code green or a code

1:03:17yellow. That means just cautionary that

1:03:20the air quality itself based on wind

1:03:23currents and air temperature determines

1:03:26how the air quality is within our area.

1:03:29So we do collect that various data as

1:03:31far as air quality.

1:03:33>> Real quick, our you said our area, what

1:03:36area are we talking about?

1:03:37>> Shelby County.

1:03:37>> Okay, so we're talking countywide. Okay,

1:03:39>> we are countywide.

1:03:40>> Keep going. Sorry.

1:03:40>> Glad you asked that clarification.

1:03:42>> Um we also collect data on all of the

1:03:45wells as Dr. Waldron said. So we go out,

1:03:47we do inspect, we also test those water

1:03:50qualities. Um we test everything from

1:03:53food to pools as far as environmental

1:03:56health. So we do have a lot of data that

1:03:58we do collect. Um we also test lead. So

1:04:01any type of environmental data that's

1:04:03requested or needed of us, we'll be more

1:04:06than happy to share. Just have to let us

1:04:07know what type of data you're looking

1:04:08for.

1:04:11>> More than happy to share. I'm going to

1:04:12remember that. Thank you so much.

1:04:14>> Of course.

1:04:15>> Quick follow up on that. you Dr. Waldry,

1:04:17you were referencing data or

1:04:21collaboration or something about 600

1:04:23wells. Is that what I said? And you get

1:04:25information from them, from the health

1:04:27department.

1:04:28>> My understanding is that from a past

1:04:30study, there's approximately 6 to 700

1:04:33private wells in the area. Um, we have

1:04:36made a request to get access to geologic

1:04:40data that comes from drillers logs. It's

1:04:42at the state, but the state records are

1:04:45not as

1:04:47uh concise as what the health department

1:04:49has. So, getting it from the health

1:04:50department would be much easier uh and

1:04:53understanding where these wells are

1:04:54located. And then we would like to work

1:04:57with the health department on um funding

1:05:01through funding that we have to help go

1:05:04and sample uh private wells uh for a

1:05:09particular constituent. the county

1:05:11health department. So, no city funding.

1:05:15>> Thank you.

1:05:15>> Or or responsibility.

1:05:16>> Totally different building. What was

1:05:18that?

1:05:19>> Or responsibility, unfortunately. Uh

1:05:22quick follow-up question from Council

1:05:24Walker.

1:05:24>> Go for it.

1:05:25>> Okay. Um you got you said six air

1:05:29monitoring sites throughout the county.

1:05:31How close is the closest air monitoring

1:05:34site to the large data center that is

1:05:37down near South Haven where all the the

1:05:42gas turbines are coming? How close is

1:05:44that? And how accurate are we actually

1:05:47getting air quality in that specific

1:05:49local area? Because I think that's the

1:05:52key question that we have as a council.

1:05:55So for us, we just added the six data

1:05:59center in that area for as miles away

1:06:02from it. I do not have that information

1:06:04in front of me, but that was why that

1:06:07air monitoring station was put in place.

1:06:10It did not officially go online until

1:06:12June of this year. We had to get it um

1:06:17looked at by EPA and to make sure it was

1:06:19within their standards and guidelines.

1:06:22Once that happened, we have been

1:06:23collecting data. It is very accurate at

1:06:26this time. Um because it is a new

1:06:29station, we don't have any problems with

1:06:31it. So it is collecting data and it is

1:06:34being put on air Q air Qi.

1:06:37>> And so AirQi is something everyone can

1:06:40get on and look at. And I I guess my

1:06:42question is compared to the rest of the

1:06:44county, is it worse there than, you

1:06:48know, up by Typton County? Is there a

1:06:51difference there uh as opposed to

1:06:53Mississippi River and Vet County uh that

1:06:56you can tell uh based on that particular

1:07:00monitor near near the gas turbines? Can

1:07:03we see a change? Is there a difference?

1:07:05>> I

1:07:07I just want to know because

1:07:08>> I felt like that was a lot of questions.

1:07:09>> Well, well, okay. Okay. The bottom line

1:07:12is compared comparing them. We're trying

1:07:15to see our citizens are telling us the

1:07:17air is bad there. And if it's worse than

1:07:20it is at the other monitoring stations,

1:07:23that would tell us that's probably true.

1:07:25And if it's not, then that may or may

1:07:28not tell us whether it's true, but it

1:07:29doesn't enforce that it's true. So

1:07:32that's my question.

1:07:34>> No problem. I can handle it. Um so the

1:07:38um what we call the Riverview that's

1:07:40what we call it uh station we have to

1:07:42look at a comparison as I've stated that

1:07:45that station only has been in existence

1:07:48a few months so we can't do a fair

1:07:51comparison but to answer your question

1:07:53do we see where it is high on certain

1:07:56days but that's not indicative of

1:08:00anything different that we might see in

1:08:01Shelby Farms and we actually have two

1:08:04air monitoring stations that are very

1:08:06close to the interstate. As you can

1:08:09remember, unfortunately, Ozone loves hot

1:08:12days. We had a tremendous amount of hot

1:08:16days. So, not only was the air

1:08:19monitoring station in Riverview that

1:08:21we're referring to did have some high

1:08:23days also during that same time, there

1:08:26were hot high days of ozone exceedence

1:08:29at the Shelby Farms LO location and

1:08:32Hernando. So we are closest to them

1:08:34where we do look at that. You know, one

1:08:36of the things to keep in mind, yes,

1:08:38people do say air quality is bad in

1:08:40certain areas, but air quality doesn't

1:08:43just stay in that area. It does go

1:08:45depending on the direction of when and

1:08:48again how much emission is already in

1:08:50the air. So that is a poignant question.

1:08:53We are waiting to see that data in

1:08:55comparison to next year so that we can

1:08:58have that comparison and give you a

1:08:59little bit more information as to how

1:09:02that station is in comparison to the

1:09:04others [clears throat] because we can

1:09:05look at the data for 23, 24, and 25 of

1:09:08the other five and say, "Oh yes, this is

1:09:11an increase. It's not an increase. It

1:09:13was just something an anomaly that

1:09:14happened during this time because of the

1:09:16exceedence of the high temperatures that

1:09:19we had this summer. So definitely we'll

1:09:21have more information on that particular

1:09:23station for this time next year. But

1:09:27right now we did, to answer your

1:09:28question, we did see some spikes coming

1:09:31from that location. And if you remember,

1:09:34we did lose power. That station was one

1:09:37of the stations that was hit where we

1:09:39did lose power for a couple of weeks. So

1:09:42as soon as we got it online due to the

1:09:44storm, we did lose power at that station

1:09:47for a couple of weeks which hindered us

1:09:48as well. So that is why I'm answering

1:09:51you like that that we did have it but we

1:09:53just have to get the continuence flowing

1:09:54to see if it is indeed something that

1:09:57we're seeing over time.

1:09:59>> Okay. And if it was what what what's the

1:10:02actions that can occur from a

1:10:04governmental standpoint? If any of our

1:10:07stations do exceed, that is when we do

1:10:09the air quality alerts, alerting

1:10:12individuals that the air quality is in

1:10:14that area. And then that is when we

1:10:16start saying this is what the public can

1:10:18do. Industry already knows what they can

1:10:20and cannot do as far as making sure that

1:10:23they are following the controls within

1:10:25their permit to make sure that they are

1:10:27not exceeding those emissions within

1:10:30their facility. And then we also ask the

1:10:32public, you know, that's the time when

1:10:34we say, "Hey, stop at the click when

1:10:35you're getting gas at the pump. Stop

1:10:37idling vehicles and car poolool

1:10:39locations." All of that contributes to

1:10:42the air quality. It's not just industry,

1:10:44but it's also us.

1:10:47>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, ma'am.

1:10:48>> Yep. Thank you, Councilman. Uh follow-up

1:10:51question.

1:10:53had the emissions or the testing or the

1:10:55readings that you've had, have they

1:10:57violated any existing

1:11:00levels

1:11:02of a permit?

1:11:06>> So, okay, he asked that question again.

1:11:08So, have there been any emissions or

1:11:11testing done at that location that would

1:11:14violate any type of uh allowable

1:11:19like permit

1:11:21>> or industry you're referring to?

1:11:22>> Yes.

1:11:23>> Okay. I would have to look at our

1:11:24records um to see if we have had any

1:11:27within that location that have violated.

1:11:30We do have a number of companies that

1:11:32are fined um for exceeding or for not

1:11:36having proper paperwork throughout

1:11:37Shelby County, but that's why I asked

1:11:40you to ask that question again. I just

1:11:42wanted to make sure I was answering

1:11:43correctly.

1:11:44>> I would have to definitely check to see

1:11:46if those companies within that area um

1:11:50have violated this past year.

1:11:52>> Just curious like it's specific to data

1:11:54centers, you know, like

1:11:55>> Well, I can answer that one for right

1:11:57now. Space XI has not violated since

1:11:59they have been permitted.

1:12:00>> Okay. So they have not violated anything

1:12:04>> for the air quality permit.

1:12:06>> Okay. Yeah.

1:12:08Um

1:12:12if there is a violation, you said

1:12:13there's a fine.

1:12:15>> Yes.

1:12:16>> Could you expound on that?

1:12:18>> Sure. Um so we do have unfortunately

1:12:20companies that do violate. That means

1:12:22they are exceeding what was allowed on

1:12:24their permit. So for EPA, EPA says this

1:12:28company can re can have this much

1:12:30emission based on what they are

1:12:32producing. So if you are a major source,

1:12:35you cannot you can exceed up to 100 tons

1:12:37per year in certain criterias. If you're

1:12:40less than that, you are considered a

1:12:42minor source. We do have some sources

1:12:45like Space Xi that is considered a

1:12:47synthetic minor source. That means that

1:12:49they can and have the potential to

1:12:52exceed and be as much as a major source.

1:12:55But because of the levels of controls

1:12:56that they have been put on them, they

1:12:58are very low. So they are under that 100

1:13:00tons per year benchmark. If you exceed

1:13:04that, we are allowed by EPA to put

1:13:07establish a fine once we have a hearing,

1:13:10which we usually call notice of

1:13:12violation hearing to let you know, hey,

1:13:14you did exceed during this time period

1:13:16based on that exceedence. How long the

1:13:18exceedence was and what caused the

1:13:20exceedence is based on how much that

1:13:22fine will be. There are also other

1:13:23categories for fines as well.

1:13:25>> Okay.

1:13:27>> Thank you. U I have another question,

1:13:31but I'm going to hold it. Councilwoman

1:13:32Logan's been waiting patiently online.

1:13:34Councilwoman Logan and then Councilwoman

1:13:36White.

1:13:41>> Thank you, Chair. Uh my question was in

1:13:43reference to what Council White said. I

1:13:48think and I wanted you to correct me if

1:13:51I'm incorrect. Chairman, today was not

1:13:54necessarily I didn't understand today to

1:13:56be a discussion about tomorrow's vote.

1:14:00It was one of the hearings that you had

1:14:03talked about before to bring all of the

1:14:05um environmental experts in to discuss

1:14:09the things that the community wanted to

1:14:10hear in an open forum. Um but it I

1:14:14didn't know that it was connected to

1:14:16what we're doing tomorrow.

1:14:18>> It's a real quick understand you were

1:14:21correct. Is that correct? I do

1:14:22understand what kind. Okay.

1:14:27>> I just wanted to make sure that she you

1:14:29know cuz we are talking about the things

1:14:31that was on the list but I do understand

1:14:34her point as well at some point we

1:14:37needed to have a discussion about about

1:14:41the direction.

1:14:42>> We can do all that tomorrow

1:14:44in committee in committee. Okay.

1:14:47>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Today we're good. you

1:14:49you what you said was totally correct.

1:14:52We're here to talk about all these

1:14:53things in public. So, go ahead. I'm

1:14:55sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

1:14:58>> Oh, no. That's what I wanted to clarify

1:15:00because

1:15:01>> I thought I read it right, but I do

1:15:03understand what she's saying, but I

1:15:04guess we're going to do that during

1:15:05committee. Is that correct?

1:15:07>> Yes.

1:15:07>> Talk about the um

1:15:11>> Okay. Thank you.

1:15:12>> Yeah. Well, and I think to your point,

1:15:14Councilwoman, and everybody,

1:15:16Councilwoman White, too, like I all this

1:15:17flows together, right? Like we're trying

1:15:19to pass the laws and the regulations and

1:15:22the guard rails and, you know, I think

1:15:24this has been wellreceived and I

1:15:26appreciate everybody taking the time to

1:15:27be here to have all these discussions in

1:15:29public. I have a question. Um, I'm

1:15:32sorry, Councilwoman White, you were in

1:15:34the queue.

1:15:37one I was going to ask being that

1:15:40there's recently a new monitor I think

1:15:43um near is it um the two-lane facility

1:15:47is that right or the Palari facility

1:15:52>> okay so in terms of the two-lane

1:15:54facility there's still no monitoring

1:15:57near that facility is that right

1:16:00>> so we don't place air monitoring by

1:16:03facilities

1:16:04>> okay

1:16:05>> it is in areas that EPA says that we can

1:16:09place them based on certain criterias

1:16:12that they have estab established from

1:16:13the federal government. So, we had to

1:16:15get permission and give a lengthy

1:16:17explanation why we needed one in this

1:16:20area and it was narrowed down to that

1:16:24proximity. That's why it was there. The

1:16:26way the air monitoring stations are

1:16:28located throughout Shelby County, it is

1:16:31based on again downwind. It's based on

1:16:35currency. It's based on interstate flow.

1:16:38They have to take all of that into

1:16:40consideration. And that is why it's

1:16:42unique that for a health department, we

1:16:45have two full-time meteorologists on

1:16:47staff because that is their job to look

1:16:50at all of those things that can impact

1:16:52the overall air quality. It's not just

1:16:55one thing. When people think about air

1:16:57quality, it is a number of things that

1:17:00play into the air quality in our area.

1:17:03So maybe and that's good. So maybe even

1:17:05from my own understanding maybe I I

1:17:07haven't understood accurately. So when

1:17:09trying to determine what a particular

1:17:11facility if there's a claim that a

1:17:13particular facility or facilities are

1:17:15emitting certain pollutants

1:17:18then that means that there would be

1:17:19another type of tool and testing that

1:17:23would be required to make that

1:17:25determination versus an overall air

1:17:27quality of the six that go throughout

1:17:29the city. Is that accurate? Yes, that is

1:17:33correct. Um, a number of people have

1:17:35stated, you know, that there's one

1:17:37particular entity that's causing now

1:17:40more air issues, more cumbersome

1:17:43breathing and that sort of thing. When

1:17:45you look at the greater scheme of

1:17:46things, when you say this one facility

1:17:48is new, it's causing it. And within that

1:17:51radius, you have 26 major sources that's

1:17:56around it. You cannot pinpoint one

1:17:59particular place to say that is where my

1:18:02illness is now coming from. You do have

1:18:05to take into the scheme of things all of

1:18:08that pollutants that's within that area

1:18:10that could be impacting the overall

1:18:13health of not only a person but the

1:18:15community that's located right there

1:18:17besides all of those industries.

1:18:20>> Understood. And I think the way that you

1:18:22have to do that is to be able to have

1:18:24some type of test, standardized test

1:18:27that's used prior to and then I guess

1:18:30after a new facility would come to

1:18:32determine whatever the change would be

1:18:34in terms of emissions.

1:18:37Is that kind of what it is? You have to

1:18:38have a standard and then to say, okay,

1:18:41we've had these other 26 things working.

1:18:44Now we have this new thing and it's

1:18:46increased, but at this point we don't

1:18:49have a baseline study

1:18:52to be able to compare that to. Is that

1:18:55right?

1:18:56>> Correct. There is no baseline for any

1:18:58industry that comes in uh to play. we do

1:19:02have to do modeling um as far as what

1:19:05we're looking at based on what the

1:19:07particular company is emitting. So you

1:19:10may have multiple companies that are

1:19:12emitting sulfur dioxide. You may have

1:19:15multiple companies that are emitting

1:19:17PM2.5 particulate matter. So I can't go

1:19:20back and say company A, you're emitting

1:19:23more PM2.5 than company B that's

1:19:26emitting PM2.5 as well. I would have to

1:19:29take into account both of those

1:19:30companies and to say which one doesn't

1:19:32have better controls or are they within

1:19:35EPA limits. So that's the other thing to

1:19:38keep in mind. EPA has set these

1:19:39regulations and said this is what is

1:19:42allowed in the environment to be

1:19:44emitted. So even if they're within those

1:19:47guidelines of emission, but you're

1:19:49living in a a ring of industrial sites

1:19:54that's right in your backyard, that is

1:19:56putting you at a disadvantage. I will

1:19:58say that that is putting you at a

1:19:59disadvantage because EPA has said this

1:20:01is what's allowed. This is what we're

1:20:03saying is safe for the community, but

1:20:05that's based on one industrial company,

1:20:09not 20 that might be in your backyard.

1:20:12But looking at that air quality, going

1:20:14back to what Dr. Warren was saying, that

1:20:16is why next year is going to be so

1:20:18important for us to actually have

1:20:20something to compare it to. to look at

1:20:22it this year. It's a guess and that's

1:20:26best guess at that. Um, but it's not

1:20:28saying that one company came in and

1:20:30changed anything because a lot of times

1:20:33through companies that are existing,

1:20:34they change based on their permits,

1:20:37based on our investigation, based on how

1:20:40the company is flowing and a lot of

1:20:41times companies are changing. You know,

1:20:44it goes back to economics too that they

1:20:46look at, okay, this is not sufficient

1:20:48for us or this is not a big money maker.

1:20:51We're going to delete that and take that

1:20:52offline and add this. So, there's a lot

1:20:55of moving parts to this. It's not just

1:20:58one thing that I could say is going to

1:21:02impact or change anything. If one

1:21:05company goes away now, am I going to see

1:21:07a decrease or change? Not necessarily.

1:21:10If it's located within the area of 20

1:21:14other industrial sites, you might get

1:21:17one or two that's on the periphery like

1:21:20you said, let's say by the Mississippi

1:21:21River that's not inundated as much. You

1:21:25take two away from there, you might see

1:21:28a difference. It's not in an area that

1:21:30has so many sites that are concentrated

1:21:33in an area. So tell me this. How does a

1:21:36community that has concern and it seems

1:21:39as if maybe because I've always thought

1:21:41this would be something that would be

1:21:42done through the county health

1:21:44department, but I'm understanding that

1:21:45you all are in fact not necessarily the

1:21:47entity to address the direct concern of

1:21:51what's being emitted from a particular

1:21:53facility. What to your knowledge are

1:21:56communities doing when there is a

1:21:58concern of a particular facility or

1:22:01facilities that are emitting pollutants?

1:22:04Um like for instance with the gas

1:22:06turbines we hear that the formaldahhide

1:22:09or um in how are those communities

1:22:12addressing that particular issue?

1:22:15because I do have people who say, "Look,

1:22:17my asthma is or I didn't have asthma and

1:22:20now I have asthma and and we keep kind

1:22:23of going back to the health department's

1:22:25report that the air is is it's it's

1:22:28within the limits and it's the same, but

1:22:29it seems as if what you all are

1:22:32measuring is not necessarily measuring

1:22:35what these people are complaining of

1:22:37right now."

1:22:39>> I'm going to speak to it very quickly

1:22:40and then it's going to go to Dr.

1:22:43that has a whole PowerPoint presentation

1:22:45to what you just asked. So again, it's

1:22:48not just one thing just like you said.

1:22:50It is a lot of layers that impact

1:22:54certain communities. And I'm going to

1:22:56stop there and let Dr. Randolph kind of

1:22:57give an overview to what he wanted to

1:22:59present to you guys about air quality

1:23:01and environmental.

1:23:04>> Man, thank you so much.

1:23:14So I think this is a good point where we

1:23:17could uh look at some data and look you

1:23:19know as the uh interim director of sever

1:23:23county health department and the health

1:23:24officer. I thought it was important that

1:23:27we actually present what the data shows

1:23:32and we can have further discussion

1:23:35uh about uh the health impact.

1:23:39Particularly the focus is really on the

1:23:42disparity uh that exists uh in the

1:23:46county as it relates to the health

1:23:49status of the citizens of next. So

1:23:52basically as you all may be aware these

1:23:55are the common uh uh the major health

1:23:59issues as we see it at the health

1:24:01department. Uh poverty, education,

1:24:04social determinance, environmental

1:24:06health, um mental uh health, life

1:24:10expectancy

1:24:12uh as well as infant mortality,

1:24:15chronic diseases, HIV, SCI, substance

1:24:18abuse, homicide and violence. We're

1:24:21going to focus uh primarily on

1:24:23environmental health. Uh and if we have

1:24:27time or if you want to, we can look

1:24:29further. But what you see here is

1:24:32actually

1:24:33um a list of zip codes and the um ED

1:24:42visits for asthma. So this is so what we

1:24:47did we actually got the number of visits

1:24:51to the emergency rooms

1:24:53per zip code but 2024

1:24:5825 26 26 of course is not complete but

1:25:04as you can see the total numbers have

1:25:06decreased for all throughout the county

1:25:09from 24 25 and continue probably 26 may

1:25:14show a decrease.

1:25:16If we look at this further, next slide.

1:25:20[clears throat] We then said, well, what

1:25:22was the top nine zip codes with the

1:25:26highest um visits to the emergency room

1:25:30for asthma?

1:25:32And uh you can see where these zip codes

1:25:36are located. And these zip codes

1:25:40correspond to where also the polluters

1:25:43are located where a lot of the major uh

1:25:48um industrial companies are located. But

1:25:52then we even look a little further next

1:25:54slide and we say well [clears throat]

1:25:57when we look at the highest ones we can

1:26:00see um

1:26:0338109

1:26:0538127 38106 38126

1:26:09etc. where you got your uh highest uh

1:26:14asthma ED visits. Uh next

1:26:18then we say what's the lowest which zip

1:26:21codes have the lowest ED visits? the

1:26:24lowest ED visits of course those that's

1:26:27further out east 38107 38117

1:26:3138133 38138

1:26:3438139

1:26:36uh Germantown and we can see Germantown

1:26:39uh area only had 94 and we compare next

1:26:44slide so we compare

1:26:47the [clears throat]

1:26:50uh zip codes the the wealthiest zip code

1:26:54which is Germantown 381139 381138

1:26:58with the poor zero code uh which uh is

1:27:0438106 we see that the number of asthma

1:27:08visits is 6.8 eight times higher among

1:27:10the force and we can see the numbers uh

1:27:13there. Next slide. And then if we

1:27:16compare also the uh lowest um asthma

1:27:23visits to the highest asthma visits. So

1:27:25that's 38109

1:27:27compared to Germantown 38106. You can

1:27:31see 94 versus 798.

1:27:37You're talking about 8.5 times higher in

1:27:40the 38109

1:27:42versus u the uh 38138 38139.

1:27:48Next slide please. So here's a map that

1:27:52depicts that. So of course the darker

1:27:55the color is the higher the number of ED

1:27:59visits. Um

1:28:02and this is in 2024.

1:28:04Next slide.

1:28:062025 you can see that the numbers are

1:28:09going down across the board. Next slide.

1:28:12Okay. And so there's decrease but you

1:28:16can still see the disparity that exists

1:28:20there between those uh zip codes the

1:28:23southeast versus those that are where

1:28:27you have the industrial

1:28:29uh companies located. Next slide.

1:28:34So this map just shows a reflection of

1:28:37where even carcinogens are being

1:28:40released. And as you can see that the

1:28:43carcinogens are being released in the

1:28:47air in the south and north Memphis those

1:28:5138127 38126.

1:28:54>> What year is that?

1:28:56>> So this this particular year is 2023.

1:28:59And this this is designed to just show

1:29:01the dis disparity

1:29:03that exists where you got emissions 60

1:29:07times more in the poor areas of Shelby

1:29:11County than out in the more wealthier

1:29:13areas. Next slide.

1:29:17And this is just showing the poundish

1:29:20there. Uh next slide.

1:29:23So questions become emissions of the uh

1:29:27companies that uh actually emitted. So

1:29:31they fall into three categories. You

1:29:33have your major sources that are allowed

1:29:36to uh that actually emit 100 tons or

1:29:40more per year. You have uh your

1:29:44synthetic minor sources. And we have the

1:29:48minor sources which be things like gas

1:29:51stations

1:29:52um for example. So what I've highlighted

1:29:56is some of the major ones and you can

1:29:58look and see for example malario uh

1:30:02generates 775

1:30:05tons of pollutants per year.

1:30:09And you can see where uh the uh uh next

1:30:14one car. Next slide.

1:30:18Uh same thing with Mitchi. I just

1:30:20highlighted those that was over uh 200.

1:30:24Next slide.

1:30:27Same thing uh new co steel. Uh even uh

1:30:32TVA.

1:30:34Uh next slide. And this is the top

1:30:40um emitters

1:30:43uh in in terms of title five major

1:30:47sources and we can see those uh numbers

1:30:52there.

1:30:52>> Where do these numbers come from? So

1:30:54these are not from you all's six

1:30:57reporting. Are these self-reported or

1:31:00where do these numbers for emissions

1:31:02come from?

1:31:04So these numbers are what we capture

1:31:06when we do our inspections. We actually

1:31:09have engineers and technical specialists

1:31:11that actually go out to these locations

1:31:13and they have to verify what's actually

1:31:15being polluted into the atmosphere. So

1:31:18that is totally different from the air

1:31:20monitoring stations.

1:31:21>> And then how often does this reporting

1:31:23happen? Is it like how many is it like a

1:31:26certain number of times per year or is

1:31:29it random? How does that work? each

1:31:31industrial or commercial site, it's

1:31:34based on their permit. So, we have some

1:31:36that will um self-identify each month

1:31:40and give us a report. Then, we have some

1:31:41that are quarterly, some of them are

1:31:44semianual and annual. It just depends on

1:31:46exactly what it is that they are

1:31:48emitting into the air and the complexity

1:31:51of the operations. As far as the staff,

1:31:53we are required by EPA guidelines to

1:31:56actually lay eyes on each of these

1:31:57facilities once a year minimum, but we

1:32:00will go out more if we do have

1:32:02additional complaints.

1:32:04>> So, all these questions like great

1:32:06questions, all these detailed questions

1:32:08that we have requirements. I mean, these

1:32:10are the types of things and I'm thinking

1:32:11about the county commission here, right?

1:32:12So, like we could we're talking about

1:32:14doing something for the state with CBA.

1:32:16Maybe we do a joint uh ordinance where

1:32:19we require the testing to be done x many

1:32:22time, you know, to to track all of this.

1:32:24Let me ask you this too. You may not

1:32:25know, not trying to put you on the spot,

1:32:28but you know, we look at those zips in

1:32:30the neighborhoods and and I mean, I

1:32:32drove around South Memphis last week and

1:32:36um was looking and like what the air

1:32:41quality tests, the requirements,

1:32:45what Are they different

1:32:47than they would be for like an

1:32:49industrial user? Like in a in a

1:32:50residential neighborhood,

1:32:53are there are there flashing signals

1:32:56going off in these zip codes that we see

1:32:59that we could that we could see and put

1:33:00a requirement on? Right. So if that

1:33:02starts to happen for our citizens in

1:33:05Memphis, like can we see that?

1:33:07>> You cannot. And just to clarify, which

1:33:10is so unfortunate as well, is that some

1:33:13of these sites are literally across the

1:33:16street from residential neighborhoods,

1:33:18>> right?

1:33:18>> So,

1:33:18>> we don't want that to happen again,

1:33:20right? I know this whole body that way

1:33:22do they and they call us to complain if

1:33:25there's something going on, especially

1:33:27the ones that are literally across the

1:33:29street from some of the homes. they will

1:33:30call and say they've been working all

1:33:32night, they had trucks, the noise aspect

1:33:35of it, and we will go out and inspect to

1:33:38see if there's anything that has

1:33:39changed. Um, we had a company not too

1:33:41long ago, uh, Dr. Randolph was involved

1:33:44with that. They called and said, "Hey, I

1:33:45have all this stuff that's being

1:33:47admitted on my car. Can you come out and

1:33:50see what's going on?" We did. They were

1:33:51in violation. They had removed controls

1:33:54and working with our attorneys and the

1:33:57health officer at the time we were able

1:33:59to shut them down.

1:34:00>> This wasn't a data center. You didn't

1:34:01tell me company.

1:34:02>> This was just a regular company.

1:34:04Correct.

1:34:05>> Correct.

1:34:06>> You know, one of the major ones and I

1:34:08think Dr. Randolph was going to show

1:34:10comparison.

1:34:11>> Council and real quick, Councilman

1:34:14Canali was asking the airport

1:34:18>> if the airport is on that list is what

1:34:20he was asking.

1:34:24complete

1:34:25>> the airport as far as emissions

1:34:30>> it would be FedEx

1:34:36>> like the zip in general

1:34:39you know does that here what are you

1:34:41trying to say

1:34:42>> yeah [laughter]

1:34:49>> permitted facilities So it's not

1:34:52complete. Just want you to know that

1:34:53it's the ones that have to require a

1:34:56permit. So that's why when you said the

1:34:58airport, airport doesn't need an air

1:35:00permit, but their biggest resident on

1:35:03the airport, FedEx, would need an air

1:35:07permit.

1:35:09>> See the difference? So it's the ones

1:35:11that are actually emitting into the air.

1:35:13So yes, the airplanes contribute to the

1:35:16air quality. You're bringing up a great

1:35:18point. It does contribute to the air

1:35:20quality. However, they don't need a

1:35:22permit to operate those airplanes.

1:35:25FedEx, because of what they do on their

1:35:28facility, they do require a permit if

1:35:32it's needed because of what they are

1:35:34working with and what they are emitting

1:35:36into it. And it has to be a stationary

1:35:38source.

1:35:40I know I'm getting way way down in the

1:35:42weeds and I can talk all day about this

1:35:44if you guys can't tell. I love

1:35:45environmental health um because it is so

1:35:48interesting on how things and what

1:35:50you're asking it does impact

1:35:52>> when you're saying hey what about the

1:35:54air quality in let's just say orange

1:35:56mount does the airport and FedEx

1:35:59contribute to that with the airplanes

1:36:01sure can I prove it no

1:36:03>> right right

1:36:04>> okay because it's just the proximity and

1:36:06where it is so there are a lot of

1:36:08variables that always take place and

1:36:11when you're dealing with things like

1:36:12this but that's an excellent question

1:36:14about the air permitting. We only look

1:36:16at when you're looking at a list like

1:36:18that, the ones that have to come through

1:36:20the health department because they are

1:36:22emitters in the air. They are emitting

1:36:26that.

1:36:27>> Can you go back to the slide just a

1:36:30minute? One other thing I want to point

1:36:31out too is that uh so though we're

1:36:34looking at the total tonnage, right?

1:36:37Tons, but the thing that we also uh

1:36:42monitor and really determine whe whether

1:36:44or not someone is in violation are those

1:36:48criterial uh pollutants that we have

1:36:51listed there like the SO2 some of the

1:36:53oxides volatile organic compounds

1:36:57nitrous oxide lead etc. So we're looking

1:37:00at those uh particular

1:37:04pollutants within the companies. Uh so a

1:37:08company may not be uh necessarily

1:37:12emitting over a 100 tons but if they're

1:37:14in violation of those criteria uh

1:37:18pollutants

1:37:20uh then we would find them uh based on

1:37:23that. Next. So that's so what I've just

1:37:26shown you are uh title five our major

1:37:31source. Next uh slide shows us the

1:37:35synthetic minor sources. So again, these

1:37:38are sources that have the potential of

1:37:41being major, but they choose to lower

1:37:44their emission through control through

1:37:47other mechanism. And main thing I wanted

1:37:49to point out on this particular slide is

1:37:52that uh Colossus

1:37:56which is Space Xi

1:37:59emits 34 tons of pollution

1:38:04compared to the 760

1:38:07that Vero and some of the other major

1:38:11sources. And then if we look

1:38:13specifically at uh so there have been

1:38:15some complaints about for example uh the

1:38:19smell of eggs type order uh which

1:38:23attributes to the sulfur dioxide.

1:38:26Uh we see that uh for uh colossus is

1:38:322.59

1:38:34uh tons. We go back a slide for example

1:38:38if you will uh we can see where uh let's

1:38:42look at uh new core it's 268

1:38:48tons

1:38:50uh 1000 times more almost next slide.

1:38:56Uh,

1:38:57>> hey, hey, real quick. We've got

1:38:59Councilwoman Logan in the queue and as

1:39:01much

1:39:03>> How many I'm just thinking from a time

1:39:05perspective. We're coming up on 3:00.

1:39:07This is wildly important for us to be

1:39:09talking about this. Can you send us a

1:39:11copy?

1:39:11>> I've said that. Absolutely.

1:39:12>> Okay, good. We've already got

1:39:13>> this whole presentation. You should have

1:39:16received.

1:39:16>> Yes, I'm looking at I'm looking at mine,

1:39:19>> but um we've got Councilwoman Logan in

1:39:21the queue. Go ahead, Councilwoman Logan.

1:39:25Thank you chair. I wanted to colleagues

1:39:28I wanted to note that um both presenters

1:39:34uh interim director as well as others

1:39:37have mentioned permitting

1:39:40most of the day permitting and those

1:39:44those things are under our purview as

1:39:46being most important. I do know that I

1:39:50heard her say

1:39:52that

1:39:54these they they are in these places

1:39:58because they are in industrial zones.

1:40:02If it wasn't industrial, they wouldn't

1:40:04be there,

1:40:04>> right?

1:40:05>> And you know, some of these areas have

1:40:07been industrial for years. I mean, in

1:40:11some of the areas were not um as quote

1:40:14unquote black areas when they those

1:40:17companies moved in or when they were

1:40:18industrial because people have moved

1:40:21around. Um I remember back in the day

1:40:25when Frasier and Raleigh and other

1:40:27places were not considered um

1:40:29African-American communities. So, you

1:40:32know, I know we've been hearing a lot

1:40:34about about that, but now they are. But

1:40:37if we need to change the zone or if the

1:40:40zones need to be um changed, that's on

1:40:43us. So, you know, these places in our

1:40:47community that don't provide protection

1:40:50for our residential areas, we need to be

1:40:53aggressive on making sure that we get

1:40:56that done.

1:40:57>> I mean, you know, that's that's what I

1:40:59keep hearing. Well, you they get a

1:41:01permit or they're they can go here by

1:41:04rights or you know these areas are in

1:41:06these particular zip codes. Well, the

1:41:08zip codes have changed and now they are

1:41:12what they are. So, we need to change the

1:41:13zoning. So, just wanted to note that

1:41:16because we keep hearing that thread

1:41:17throughout the day.

1:41:19>> Yeah. Thank you, Councilwoman.

1:41:21Um

1:41:23any other comments, questions?

1:41:27>> I'd just like to thank uh Dr. Randolph

1:41:30for all the good work he's done both now

1:41:32and other times.

1:41:35>> We're not done with you yet. Um I'm

1:41:37kidding. We are almost done. I do have a

1:41:38question uh about noise. You know, when

1:41:40we were here last time, Allan, Attorney

1:41:43Wade, who's out representing us right

1:41:44now, which is why I couldn't be here. We

1:41:47talked about noise and how we can

1:41:48control that. Um

1:41:52what about you all? Is noise under your

1:41:54purview?

1:41:58So there are [clears throat] ordinance

1:42:00under the Munich code pertaining to

1:42:03noise. A lot of it is vehicles, a lot of

1:42:05is you know animals and what have you.

1:42:09Uh but one of the things that we will

1:42:12explore is to what extent did that

1:42:15extend to industrial site. Um and from

1:42:20what I've uh

1:42:23read uh briefly is that in the um Munich

1:42:28code the level of

1:42:32uh noise that's permitted is up to 70 dB

1:42:37I think. Uh and so we'll need to

1:42:40actually measure

1:42:43the noise in the area to see if indeed

1:42:48uh it exceeds what we may have on the

1:42:51books as uh limits.

1:42:54>> Do you do you do you have do you have

1:42:58>> 50? Okay. Yeah.

1:43:01>> Do you have uh noise decibel? No, we

1:43:06would have to purchase that equipment.

1:43:08>> Yeah. So, we don't do we have any in the

1:43:09city of Memphis or the county?

1:43:11>> I don't I don't know

1:43:12>> if anyone

1:43:14we do for vehicles, Councilman Canali,

1:43:16thank you. Thank you for being here

1:43:18today. That's what we do for vehicles.

1:43:20Okay. So, that's something for us to

1:43:22consider, right?

1:43:24I That's why we're here. All right. So,

1:43:26I've loved I appreciate all the

1:43:28questions. Um all of these details

1:43:31matter. You know, we're trying to pass a

1:43:33legislation. We're trying to protect

1:43:35citizens. We're trying to do all these

1:43:36things. So, thank you to everybody for

1:43:38being here today. Um, we got to pass

1:43:41some laws that make sense. Is there any

1:43:43other comments or questions?

1:43:46He was not done with his presentation,

1:43:48but he's going to send it to us just

1:43:50because we're coming up on three

1:43:51o'clock. So, I think we're I think we're

1:43:53in good shape.

1:43:54>> Everybody good with that?

1:43:55>> All right. Thank you all for being here.

1:43:58Thank you, Councilwoman Logan online.

1:44:00This meeting is adjourned.