2026-11-02 - Finance Committee

00:13time. Having arrived, I call this

00:15meeting of the city council's finance

00:17committee to order. Thank you, Mr.

00:19Clerk.

00:20>> Item one, we have the reappoint of

00:21Phyllis Ellis of Auburn Street Brockton

00:23Mass to the library board of trustees

00:25for a three-year term ending in October

00:272029. invited Phyllis Ellis.

00:30>> Good evening, Miss Ellis.

00:31>> Good evening.

00:33Do I stand? Do I sit?

00:35>> At your leisure.

00:36>> Councilors, do we have a motion?

00:38>> Motion to recommend favorably back to

00:40the full city council.

00:42>> Second.

00:42>> Motion's properly made and seconded. All

00:44in favor?

00:45>> All opposed? Motion is approved.

00:48>> Congratulations.

00:48>> Congratulations.

00:50>> Thank you, Mr. Johnson.

00:58Miss Ellis, did you have anything you

01:00wanted to say? My apologies.

01:02>> We're done.

01:03>> All right, Mr.

01:04>> Item two, ordered that the following

01:06name sum be and the same as hereby

01:08transferred is the same as submitted by

01:09the mayor as follows. Transfer of

01:11$27,511.93

01:14from the stabilization fund. Two,

01:17library personal services non-overtime,

01:19$2,245.76.

01:22Two, Health and Human Services Personal

01:24Services non-overtime, $2,866.64.

01:29Two, Council on Aging Personal Services,

01:31non-overtime, $7,347.91.

01:36Two, Veterans Personal Services,

01:37non-overtime, $2,72.17.

01:41Two, Procurement Personal Services

01:43non-overtime, $3,113.85.

01:47Two, police personal services,

01:49non-overtime, $1,166.50.

01:53Two, parks and wreck personal services,

01:55non-overtime, $66,2.31.

01:59Two, cemetery personal services,

02:00non-overtime, $13242,

02:04excuse me, 49. Two, DPW Commissioner

02:07Personal Services non-overtime, $4,5954.

02:12Two, DPW engineering personal services

02:15non-overtime $1,65823.

02:19Two DPW storm water personal services

02:21non-overtime $1,35823.

02:26Two DPW water personal services

02:28non-overtime $99.15

02:31to DPW sewer personal services

02:33non-overtime $99.15.

02:36invited Mayor Moses Rodriguez andor

02:38designate interim CFO John Condon andor

02:41designate.

02:43>> Good evening, Mr. Mayor. Good evening,

02:45Mr. CFO.

02:46>> Good evening.

02:48>> Good evening.

02:52>> Is it my turn?

02:54Well, councilors, um this was basically

02:57an auditor from a a contract that we had

03:00signed with the department heads union

03:02even prior to uh Mr. Condan's uh

03:06appointment. Um,

03:09and this is a contract that we uh we

03:11struck with the department heads union

03:13for a three-year contract uh paying in

03:16an additional 2% first year and one one

03:20for the following two years.

03:25>> Council councelor Thompson.

03:27[clears throat]

03:28>> Uh thank you uh Mr. Chairman. Just uh

03:31one quick question. It's this it states

03:33that it's coming from stabilization

03:34fund. Which which stabilization fund

03:36exactly is this money coming from?

03:37>> It's the general stabilization fund. It

03:39takes a twothirds vote to transfer this

03:41from that fund.

03:43>> What's the current balance of that

03:44stabilization fund?

03:45>> Uh it's several hundred,000.

03:47It's less than $500, but you know, two

03:50or $300,000.

03:53>> Thank you. Thank you, councelor.

03:57Councelor Farwell.

03:58>> Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Mr. Mr.

04:01Mayor or Mr. Condan,

04:04uh, Council on Aging Personal Services,

04:06nonOT,

04:08how many positions does that cover as

04:10far as a, uh, as far as a an increase?

04:14>> What was the department again, sir?

04:15>> The uh, Council on Aging Personal

04:17Services.

04:18>> Just one. Just one.

04:19>> Just one. One person.

04:20>> Just the department head.

04:22>> Okay. And how about uh, the other larger

04:27>> amount is DPW Commissioner. Is that

04:30simply the

04:33I think the commissioner is covered by

04:35city ordinance.

04:36>> No, it's not the DP it's his budget. The

04:38DPW commissioner is not in that union, I

04:40don't think.

04:41>> Okay. So, who the $4,59.54

04:46to whom would those funds be going as a

04:48pay raise?

04:49>> Director of operations.

04:50>> What's that?

04:50>> The director of operations.

04:52>> Okay. Thank you. Director of operations,

04:53is that

04:53>> okay? And that's that's simply based on

04:55a percentage increase of

04:57>> it's his it's his base salary times a

04:58percentage increase. Yeah. There's also

05:00an increase in the on call stipen I

05:02think for a couple of these jobs.

05:03>> Okay. And the last question is because I

05:05think it's very important to be fair and

05:07consistent and recognize that we have

05:10department heads that are covered by an

05:12ordinance.

05:13>> Right.

05:13>> Did the non-EP department head union

05:16employees or department heads receive

05:19any type of an increase? because I I

05:22frankly I have vacasillated back and

05:25forth between whether to support this

05:28simply because I don't want a certain

05:30group of department heads to receive a

05:32wage adjustment and then the others do

05:35not because the others are certainly

05:37equally if not more important.

05:42So, uh, there's nothing in this year's

05:45budget except for the continuation for

05:47the increase they received by ordinance

05:48last year, but there's no nothing

05:50changed from that ordinance that was

05:52passed to increase salaries of non-union

05:54department heads. I think it was last

05:56year.

05:56>> So, for example, the solicitor, the

05:59chairman of the board of assessors, the

06:01city auditor, collector treasurer, they

06:04they at least at this point are not

06:06receiving anything

06:08>> correct except for what they received

06:10last year is being cons. except for what

06:11they received last year. But was it

06:14anywhere near comparable to this if we

06:16know?

06:17>> I think there might have been more. No,

06:18no, it it was basically 2% and there

06:21were a couple uh department heads

06:24because they took on additional

06:25responsibility that got a little higher

06:26than that, but uh across the board it

06:28was around 2%.

06:31>> Okay. So just for the record, everyone

06:34is being treated whether it's the

06:36department heads union or the ordinance

06:38department heads. They have been treated

06:41equally and

06:42>> as well as we can counselor. Uh

06:44>> well as we can

06:45>> as well as as well as we can. That's

06:46what we're

06:47>> Thank you.

06:48>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

06:49>> Thank you, councelor. Any other

06:51counselors or do we have a motion?

06:53>> Uh any councilors who have not yet

06:56spoken who want to do so?

06:57>> All right, we'll go to a second round.

06:59Councelor Thompson.

07:00>> Uh [clears throat] thank you, Mr. chair

07:01and I sorry I forgot to ask uh one

07:02additional question. Uh Mr. CFO um I was

07:06taking a look at your communication uh

07:08when this matter first came before us

07:10last week and in your communication you

07:13state that um while this contract

07:16contractual cost is not large in itself.

07:18I cannot certify that sufficient funds

07:20will be available to support these

07:22salary increases in the two subsequent

07:25fiscal years of the contract.

07:26Furthermore, the s the city's current

07:28financial position does not support

07:30extending similar salary increases to

07:33other bargaining units. So, um I just

07:36want to talk to you about that

07:36communication and maybe um you could

07:38further explain uh is that um we just

07:42don't see that type of communication in

07:44the past. And I I appreciate you, you

07:46know, being transparent in um in your

07:48communications with the council, but I

07:50was hoping if you could maybe uh provide

07:52some color as to your communication um

07:55on this on this issue.

07:56>> It's it's it's pretty straightforward.

07:58At at the moment, I don't have a number

08:00what it will take to balance next year's

08:01budget. We're working on it, but it's a

08:03very large number that we're not able to

08:06see a way of financing to continue the

08:08same level of services. That means we're

08:11either going to have to find ways to

08:12reduce services. Some of those

08:13reductions would probably require

08:15layoffs or obtain additional revenues or

08:17obtain assistance of some form from the

08:20state either from a deficit funding loan

08:22or maybe even revenue assistance if we

08:24got very like lucky. So the reason for

08:26that communication was to simply alert

08:28you that as you're making this vote,

08:29we're facing those circumstances. And I

08:32don't want to sugarcoat it that the I

08:35haven't finished the work. I can't give

08:36you a specific number, but it's a very,

08:38very big number, and it'll be difficult

08:40for us to get past that without quite a

08:42bit of pain of some kind. Even if we

08:43borrow the money, we're going to have

08:44pain paying back that borrowing over

08:46time.

08:48So, that was the reason for that

08:49sentence.

08:50>> I appreciate that. Thank you. Uh, thank

08:53you, Mr. Chair.

08:54>> Thank you, councelor. Councelor Green.

08:57>> Uh, so, Mr. CFO, I just I just want to

08:59be clear on your response um just now.

09:01Is is the uh lack of certification a

09:05result of not having enough time and all

09:09the details in your work or is it a

09:13result of you've done the work and um

09:15the the numbers are just not there and

09:16you're not able to certify at this time?

09:18>> It it's [clears throat] a result of my

09:19knowing that there isn't a likely

09:21balancing of next year's budget without

09:23some kinds of cuts. Either balancing the

09:25budget by a borrowing which we don't

09:27have the authority for right now.

09:28balancing the budget with additional

09:30revenues which we don't I don't see on

09:32the horizon or through service

09:34reductions and even perhaps layoffs. So

09:36I don't know the number but I know the

09:38circumstances and so the certification

09:40really doesn't have anything to do with

09:41the specific number. It has to do with

09:43the circumstances

09:44>> based on the circumstances. Okay. All

09:46right. Thank you for that. Um and um

09:50this this

09:52um this additional um cost the u the 20

09:55uh 27,51193

09:59um were these numbers anticipated in the

10:02um in the FY27 or this is kind of in

10:05>> when the budget was submitted.

10:06>> Yes,

10:07>> I wasn't here when the budget was

10:08submitted. I think the budget was

10:10probably submitted before the contract

10:11was signed if I'm not mistaken there.

10:14[snorts] So it there wasn't a specific

10:16provision for this in the budget at the

10:18time it was submitted. I don't believe

10:19it might have been accomp to be able to

10:21be accomplished within the department

10:22budgets because it's a small amount for

10:24a couple of them. It might have been

10:26kind of tight. We did the costing.

10:29I would have still been obliged under

10:31chapter 324 to submit a letter because

10:33it's a contract of more than one year

10:35and the letter would have said the same

10:36thing as this. So the issue would have

10:38been before you in the form of a letter

10:40without an appropriation. I didn't think

10:42that was a circumstance that as we move

10:44ahead, we're going to need to be

10:45cooperative. And I thought it was

10:47important that you had a chance to weigh

10:48in on this even though it's a small

10:49amount of money.

10:50>> Okay. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

10:54>> Thank you, councelor.

10:56Council, any other questions or do we

10:57have a motion?

10:58>> Do we have a roll call vote, please?

11:00>> I need a motion.

11:01>> A motion for a roll call vote. Uh,

11:04>> well, I need a We need a vote on

11:06something.

11:07>> Motion to recommend favorably subject to

11:09a roll call vote. Second.

11:12>> Motion is properly made and seconded for

11:15a roll call. Well, to recommend

11:18favorably. We'll do it through a roll

11:19call vote. Uh, Mr. Clerk or Madam Clerk.

11:27Mr. Clerk, will you please call the

11:29role?

11:31>> ASAC.

11:33I'm sorry. Charell.

11:36>> Yes.

11:38>> Farwell.

11:39>> No.

11:41Griffin,

11:41>> no.

11:43>> Green,

11:45>> no.

11:46>> Lai,

11:47>> yes.

11:49>> The Castro,

11:52>> Texera,

11:53>> yes.

11:54>> Thompson,

11:55>> yes.

11:56>> Motion passes.

11:59>> Matters [clears throat] recommend.

11:59>> Council, just so you know, it does take

12:01a two-thirds vote at the final meeting.

12:02Tonight is only a all that's needed

12:05tonight is a simple majority. matters

12:08recommended favorably.

12:10>> Thank you. Cautious.

12:12>> Thank you, gentlemen.

12:19>> Item three, ordered that the city

12:21council authorizes [clears throat] the

12:22acceptance and expenditure of the total

12:23grant funds in the amount of $258,000

12:27from the Massachusetts Department of

12:28Mental Health to the Brockton Police

12:30Department. Invited Chief of Police

12:32Brenda Perez, Andor Designee. Interim

12:34CFO John Conan andor designate.

12:38>> Good evening.

12:43>> Um, good afternoon everyone. Um, thank

12:45you for allowing me the opportunity to

12:47come before you today. My name is

12:48Felicia Ala. I'm the grant coordinator

12:50for the Brockton Police Department.

12:52Today I'll be presenting our fiscal year

12:5427 Department of Mental Health jail

12:56diversion program and discussing how it

12:58supports our department's efforts to

13:00improve mental health response and

13:01diversion services throughout the

13:03Brockton community. So the Brockton

13:05Police Department has been awarded the

13:06full program cost of $258,000 through

13:09the Massachusetts Department of Mental

13:10Health. The proposed grant period runs

13:13from July 1st, 2026 through June 30th,

13:162027. The purpose of this program is to

13:18strengthen the relationship between law

13:20enforcement and mental health services,

13:22providing individuals experiencing

13:24mental health or behavioral health

13:25crisises with access [clears throat] to

13:27appropriate intervention and support. As

13:30many of us know, police officers are

13:31often among the first responders when

13:33someone is experiencing a me a mental

13:35health crisis. However, these situations

13:37do not always require a traditional law

13:39enforcement response. In many instances,

13:41individuals benefit more from mental

13:43health interventions, referrals, and

13:45connections to community- based services

13:47rather than entering the criminal

13:48justice system. So, throughout this

13:50program, we'll see mental health

13:52clinicians working close with the

13:53Brockton Police Department co-response

13:55officers um to help address these

13:57situations. Um, so the use of this

14:00$258,000 award will support several

14:02important components of this program,

14:04including funding for outreach clinician

14:06positions, which work directly with a

14:08co-response officers, post-enccounter

14:10follow-up services to help individuals

14:12remain connected with appropriate

14:13resources, and clinician supervision to

14:15support the delivery of these services.

14:19>> Oops.

14:19>> Oh my god, I feel so bad. [laughter]

14:22>> No one said anything.

14:23>> I didn't notice. I'm sorry.

14:25>> I apologize.

14:27Um, aside from that, the funding also

14:29supports training time and crisis

14:31intervention, which is the CIT team,

14:33backfilling for officers participating

14:35in specialized training. Together, these

14:37activities help ensure that the program

14:39can continue providing outreach,

14:40intervention, and appropriate referrals

14:42to individuals who may otherwise repeat

14:44encounters with law enforcement. I also

14:47wanted to briefly um address a current

14:49staffing need within the program. So the

14:52department recently experienced um a

14:54loss of a clinician unfortunately who is

14:56actually very important um part of our

14:58team. As a result we are currently

15:00looking to recruit a replacement

15:01clinician to help maintain services and

15:03ensure that the program can still meet

15:05its standards. Um but ultimately the

15:08program is about recognizing public

15:09safety involves more than just

15:11responding to an incident. It also means

15:13identifying individuals who may need

15:14additional support, connecting them with

15:16appropriate services and working to

15:18prevent situations from repeatingly

15:19escalating into emergency responses or

15:22even like unnecessary involvement with

15:23criminal justice systems. Um, I also

15:26want to highlight that this is not a new

15:27initiative for the Brockton Police

15:29Department. Um, we've been participating

15:30in the the Department of Mental Health's

15:32shield diversion funding initiative

15:34since fiscal year 2011, which

15:36demonstrates our long-standing

15:37commitment to improving mental health

15:39response and providing appropriate

15:41diversion services within our comm

15:42community. Um, we're grateful to the

15:44Massachusetts Department of Mental

15:46Health for awarding the Brockton Police

15:47Department the full $250,000

15:49to continue these efforts. Um, and I

15:52want to thank you guys as well and open

15:54the floor up for any questions. Oh, I

15:56also didn't mention there is no match

15:58required for this grant. Um, which is

16:00also a major part. But yeah, thank you.

16:03>> Thank you, councelor Charnell.

16:06>> Ah, good evening. I was that was one of

16:08my questions. Is there a matching and

16:10how many CL how many people does this

16:12grant support um in employment? Yeah.

16:16So, um we're actually we are partnered

16:18up with um one of the um clinicians, two

16:23clinicians outside of it um called TCBC,

16:25which is another um company that works

16:27with us. So, they provide us two

16:28clinicians. We do have our own in-house

16:30clinician, which we just lost. So, we

16:33are looking for someone. We have someone

16:34who supervises the two clinicians, so

16:37about four people right there. Um that's

16:40primarily where most of that goes goes.

16:42And then we also do have um for example

16:45like the CIT training. So if we have any

16:47officers who get that specialized

16:49training for that intervention, they

16:51also can get their overtime approved

16:53through this grant as well. So a little

16:55bit of everything.

16:56>> And um does a clinician go out just so

17:00the public knows does the clinic

17:02clinician go out with the officer if it

17:05if it's a health related or mental

17:08health related? I'm assuming.

17:10>> Yeah, that is correct. Okay. Um, Mr.

17:14President, no more questions. Thank you.

17:16>> All right. Thank you, Councelor

17:17Thompson, followed by Councelor Green.

17:19>> Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair, and uh, hi,

17:21good evening. Uh, thank you for being

17:23here this evening. Um, does this grant

17:25is this uh, in conjunction with the, uh,

17:27the Brockton Police Department's um,

17:30addiction, mental health, and homeless

17:32task force, or is this a does this help

17:35fund uh, those positions, or is this a

17:37different grant for different uh, uh,

17:40mental health providers? Do you mind if

17:41I actually pull some help if that's okay

17:43with you guys?

17:44>> That's of course.

17:46>> Thank you.

17:47>> Thank you, sir.

17:49>> Council Thompson, it's it's different,

17:50but it works in conjunction.

17:53>> Okay.

17:53>> So So it it'll help support it.

17:55>> They support each other.

17:56>> Yes.

17:56>> Okay. Understood. That's That was my

17:58only question. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.

17:59Chair.

18:00>> Thank you, Council Council Green.

18:04>> Thank you. Uh congratulations on this

18:06grant. I think it's amazing um for the

18:08other city. um and um and for the work

18:12that you've done in the past on this. Um

18:14so just to be clear, this this this

18:16grant is uh supporting um is it a total

18:19of four clinicians?

18:22>> Correct. Right now it's going to be

18:24three because we're looking for a fourth

18:26uh in-house clinician right now. Okay.

18:28>> Hopefully we can remedy that problem

18:30fairly quickly and get them on board.

18:32>> Okay. Okay. And are these clinicians um

18:35on the uh doctoral level or master level

18:40clinician?

18:41>> That's a good question. I'd have to get

18:42back to you, but I think masters.

18:44>> Masters.

18:44>> Yes.

18:45>> Okay. All right.

18:46>> But but we'll but we'll double check.

18:48>> Okay. All right. Um how does the U

18:51department relative to this grant

18:53coordinate with other um area hospitals

18:57and uh providers? Is there is there any

19:00collaboration?

19:02Another good question. Um, so yes, there

19:05is collaboration. Um, Lieutenant Schlean

19:08is the manager of this uh, grant with

19:12and he oversees the clinicians. So I

19:14would really have to ask him that

19:16question and get back to you on that as

19:17well. I know there is collaboration with

19:19the hospitals and other clinicians in

19:21different communities. Um, but as far as

19:24your specific question, I would have to

19:26double check for you.

19:27>> Sure. Okay. All righty. And um uh do you

19:30know if the uh the population is both

19:32adult and um pediatric or is it

19:37>> Yes, it's everyone.

19:38>> The both?

19:39>> Yes.

19:40>> Okay. Um

19:42All righty. And uh two more questions.

19:45Um do you do you

19:48uh do you recall how many um how many

19:52individuals were serviced through this

19:54this effort uh last year? Do you have a

19:57stats on that?

19:58>> I are we allowed to disclose that. Well,

20:01>> just numbers.

20:02>> Um, just a rough estimate on the last

20:04time that I put in a report. I know

20:06there was roughly around 58 people that

20:08we were seeing at the time in the

20:09program, but I know it varies depending

20:11on the time of year, things like that.

20:13So,

20:13>> Okay. All righty. And I'm just asking in

20:15terms of the effectiveness of the uh

20:18program and the impact that it's having

20:20on the uh the community. So that's

20:22that's you know that's incredible and

20:24it's good it's it's good to hear that

20:26>> I can speak firsthand on on seeing it in

20:29action where we have someone that's uh

20:31um in a manic state and the clinician

20:34comes in and deescalates the whole

20:36situation because they're more apt to

20:38speak to a civilian than they are a

20:39police officer. So it's worked

20:41incredibly well in the instances that

20:43I've seen it personally.

20:44>> Okay, great. Thank you again.

20:46>> Appreciate the work. All right. And I

20:48hope we can hear some more great reports

20:51on um on the effectiveness and the

20:53outcome of this uh program in the next

20:56several months. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

20:58>> Thank you, councelor. Any other

21:00counselors?

21:01>> Motion to recommend favorably back to

21:02the full city council.

21:03>> Second.

21:04>> Motion's properly made and seconded. All

21:06in favor? All opposed? The motion

21:08passes. Thank you very much. Thank you.

21:10>> Thank you.

21:12Item four, in accordance with the

21:13general of Massachusetts [clears throat]

21:15chapter 44, recommending the city

21:16council approve the expenditure of $250

21:20from mayor purchase of service to better

21:22business journal. Invited mayor Moses

21:24Rodriguez andor designate interim CFO

21:27John Condan andor designate.

21:30>> I think I can handle this, Mr. Mayor.

21:32This a bill that came in late and we're

21:34just looking to get it paid.

21:35>> Motion to recommend favorably.

21:38>> Motion's properly made and seconded. All

21:40in favor? opposed.

21:42Motion passes. You are right, Mr. CFO.

21:46>> Item five, ordered. Be it ordered by the

21:47Brockton City Council to invite James

21:49O'Brien, City Solicitor, to appear

21:51before the finance committee to discuss

21:53and schedule an executive session as

21:55permitted by Mass General Laws Chapter

21:5738, Section 21A-3

22:00for the purpose of discussing litigation

22:02strategy concerning the following two

22:04matters. Pending litigation to discuss

22:06litigation strategy and potential

22:08settlement of Andrea D. Brando as

22:11personal re representative of the estate

22:13of Alfonsto Brandeo v. Daniel Benvy

22:15Anthony Lewis Oliggario Degra at all

22:18civil action number 124-CV-10147

22:23and potential litigation to discuss

22:25litigation strategy concerning

22:27reasonably anticipated litigation

22:29involving outstanding medical IODD

22:31claims of two Brockton firefighters with

22:33the Mass General Hospital. invited city

22:36solicitor James O'Brien andor designate

22:38attorney Leonard Kston andor designign

22:41council what we would need is a motion

22:43to go into executive session and then a

22:45roll call vote

22:47>> the reason for breaking for executive

22:50session in the middle of the meeting

22:52which I am not a fan of either is

22:54because this executive session relates

22:57directly to the next item on our agenda

22:59and so we would have to come back out of

23:01executive session and continue the

23:03meeting regardless of where this item

23:06was placed on the agenda. So, you know,

23:09the the clerk and I discussed it. Um

23:12there's no real way around breaking the

23:14meeting, going into executive session,

23:17and then returning after, which is why

23:18this is in the middle of the agenda.

23:22>> Motion to go into executive session

23:23pursuant to the provisions of chapter 3A

23:26as outlined on the agenda.

23:28>> Second.

23:29>> Motion is properly made and seconded to

23:31enter into executive session. Um, Mr.

23:35Clerk, roll call vote. Would you please

23:37call the role?

23:39>> Mr. Chairman, I think you have to

23:40announce we will be coming back.

23:42>> We'll do that. We will.

23:45>> Azac,

23:46>> yes.

23:47>> Charell,

23:48>> yes.

23:50>> Farwell,

23:50>> yes.

23:51>> Griffin,

23:52>> yes.

23:53>> Green,

23:53>> yes. [clears throat]

23:54>> Lai,

23:55>> yes.

23:55>> Niccastro,

23:56>> yes.

23:57>> Terra,

23:58>> yes.

23:59>> Thompson,

23:59>> yes.

24:03Uh, nine in the eight in the

24:05affirmative.

24:05>> The motion is passed.

24:06>> Nine,

24:07>> excuse me.

24:08>> The motion is passed. For the folks in

24:10the audience, for the folks at home, we

24:11will be going into executive dis session

24:13to address matters of pending

24:15litigation. The meeting will continue in

24:18public at the end of executive session.

24:23Counselors, we are back in public

24:25session. Mr. Clerk, item number six,

24:27please.

24:32Item six, ordered that the following

24:33name sum be and the same as hereby

24:35transferred as the same was submitted by

24:36the mayor as follows. Transfer of

24:38$18,184,462.35

24:43from the pension stabilization fund.

24:45Two, fiscal year 2027 revenues $4,32,57.

24:51Two, the car's fund deficit

24:533,791,386.95.

24:57Two, the non-net school spending

24:59deficit, $4,787,311.66.

25:04Two, the del charges, $2 million. Two,

25:07the snow and ice deficit, $453,256.74.

25:13Two, law work workers compensation,

25:15$2,200,000.

25:17Two, law goods and supplies, $500,000.

25:20Two, auditor mail, $150,000.

25:23invited Mayor Moses [clears throat]

25:24Rodriguez andor design superintendent

25:27Dr. Priya Tahiliani andor designign DPW

25:30Commissioner Patrick Hill interim CFO

25:32John Condan andor designign

25:36>> good evening Mr. CFO.

25:46>> Okay. Well, uh, councilors, this is an

25:48appropriation which we're looking to use

25:50to get rid of everything which is

25:52standing in the way of us from setting

25:54our tax rate. And basically, it's

25:56attempting to cure deficits, most of

25:59which were present for a period of time,

26:02even preceding this fiscal year. During

26:04the last fiscal year, the [snorts]

26:06department of revenue has said in order

26:07to approve the tax rate, we need to

26:09clear up all of these past deficits. And

26:11I had no source of funding other than

26:14this uh pension reserve fund to pay for

26:17it. I would like to say something about

26:19that fund because I think there's a

26:21little bit of confusion on that. That is

26:22a fund that was established when we sold

26:24the pension uh obligation bond in uh

26:272021. It has nothing to do with the bond

26:30payments, nor does it have anything to

26:32do with the pension payments for the

26:34city employees. What it has to do with

26:36is when we sold those bonds, we realized

26:39a budgetary savings between the cost of

26:41the debt service and the amount of money

26:43that would have been paid to pay off the

26:44unfunded liability and a portion of that

26:47savings was used to create a reserve

26:48fund and that's what this is being used

26:50to pay for.

26:52>> Motion to recommend favorably back to

26:54the full city council.

26:55>> Second. Motion's properly made and

26:57seconded. There's something on the

26:59motion. Councelor Farwell.

27:01>> Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

27:02Condan. Uh between now and Monday when

27:06this would receive a formal vote,

27:10I strongly request and urge that you and

27:13the mayor get an email out to all

27:16department heads and have each

27:18department head certify that there are

27:22no further outstanding financial

27:25liabilities that we need to handle. I'm

27:28I'm hearing anecdotal information uh

27:31which I'll share with you offline uh

27:34from people that I trust that

27:38there may be invoices in some officers

27:42offices CES that have not been

27:45addressed. And I um

27:48I just would feel much more comfortable

27:50given what you and I went through years

27:52ago knowing that each department head

27:54who is now working for the city will

27:58tell the mayor, I've looked, everything

28:00is clean. We've addressed everything

28:03that's outstanding and there is nothing

28:05further that we have to worry about.

28:08>> Well, to the extent that I know of them,

28:10I've come before you for them. There are

28:12still, as you saw tonight, occasional

28:14invoices, small dollar amounts that

28:16really have nothing to do with the

28:17fiscal stability of the city for

28:19invoices that had to be paid out of

28:20prior year funds for prior year funds,

28:23but nothing to the order of this. But

28:25I'll send the email out and I hope I get

28:26a response because we do need to act on

28:28this.

28:29>> All right. And I I know that u the

28:33school department is represented here

28:35with attorney Sai.

28:37I do want to enter into the record that

28:40the the challenges they face with

28:43non-net school spending and

28:45transportation. I know there's a

28:47software program. I know that attorney

28:49Sai has worked diligently on this

28:52particular issue.

28:54Whatever additional resources we can

28:57bring to this, whether it's an outside

28:59consultant to take a look operationally

29:02at the how the buses are being used,

29:06what strategies might be employed,

29:08changing bus routes, changing the

29:11limitations on transporting students.

29:15This is only going to be a challenge

29:16year after year. And however we can work

29:19with you on that, I think it would I

29:21think it would pay dividends. So, thank

29:24you, Mr. Chairman.

29:25>> Thank you, councelor Councel Green,

29:28followed by Councelor Thompson.

29:31>> Uh, Mr. CFO, I just um just a couple of

29:34things. Um, one, um, just just for the,

29:38uh, the public. Um, we we need to cure

29:42this uh, deficit in order to set the

29:45other tax rate. We do not have a choice.

29:48Is that correct? To get the tax rate

29:50set, we need to show that there are no

29:52revenue deficits in this fiscal budget.

29:54And that's what a couple of those items

29:56are for, for the sale of the police

29:57building, as well as for an overestimate

30:00of new growth. Then there is a request

30:02for a budget balancing amount in the

30:04auditor's mail room. That goes to the

30:06question the council of firewalls was

30:08was referring to that I knew about. It

30:10needed to be supplemented. And there's a

30:12question of the transportation budget

30:14deficit from last year. any problems in

30:17this year's budget which are

30:19underfunded. The answer to that, I

30:22think, is for the department heads to

30:23manage those budgets. That's a different

30:25question than something that is

30:27outstanding that we don't know about and

30:29needs to be funded out of out of prior

30:31years. But an appropriation for this

30:33year, we're still only a third of the

30:35way into the year. And if if you need to

30:37manage the budget for what you've been

30:39given, and if you can't, that's another

30:41matter entirely. But we don't I don't

30:43know of anybody who said, "I can't

30:44manage that." They're looking, some of

30:46them have got problems and they're

30:48looking to find ways to bring the

30:49spending rate down. But I don't know of

30:51anything that says we've got a major

30:53major problem that needs to be

30:54addressed. That's a different problem

30:56than a prior year that needs to be the D

30:58department of revenue is not asking us

31:00to cure this year's expenditure budget.

31:02They're asking us to cure the revenue

31:04budget that they knew was phony in prior

31:06year deficits.

31:07>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Um the

31:10[clears throat] the uh the charges for

31:13um del

31:15uh $2 million. This is probably a

31:17question for uh Commissioner um Hill.

31:20Are these new charges or are these

31:23>> No, [snorts] that's a budget shortfall

31:25uh like the auditor's mail room uh

31:27problem. That budget was not funded in

31:31the budget that was submitted to you.

31:32That line item was not funded in the

31:34budget that was submitted to you, but

31:35it's a contractual number and that's why

31:38I put it into this request because I

31:40know we're going to have to pay it.

31:42>> So, if it's contractual, it's it's

31:44anticipated. We know the cost is there.

31:46So, is is there a reason why this was

31:50not included in the budget?

31:52[clears throat]

31:52>> I I did address this counselor during uh

31:55the budget hearings. I was concerned

31:56about this very issue myself. Um,

31:59knowing and everybody here knowing

32:02exactly what the contractual obligation

32:04to Aquaria was. The question was asked,

32:08uh, I didn't think it was adequate for

32:10me to respond. The CFO did respond

32:12saying that he was he wasn't going to

32:14submit a budget um that wasn't level

32:17funded.

32:22>> Okay.

32:24All righty. Thank you.

32:27>> Thank you, councelor. Councelor

32:29Thompson.

32:30>> Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, so just I

32:34I'll probably get into a lot more

32:36[clears throat] of this during the

32:37resolve, but um this $18 million, you're

32:42you're saying it's doing two things.

32:44It's curing fiscal 26 budgetary

32:49shortfalls and then curing fiscal 27

32:53revenue shortfalls. and and

32:55appropriation shortfalls as well to the

32:57extent that I knew of them. When I first

32:59got here, I asked my office to take a

33:00look at the budget that was submitted

33:02and where they thought there were

33:03problems in it. Plus, we also knew that

33:05there were deficits that have been

33:06hanging around for a while that the

33:08Department of Revenue wasn't going to

33:09let us continue to carry. And we also

33:11knew that the Department of Revenue was

33:13not happy with the uh revenue that was

33:15estimated for $4 million for the police

33:18building sales. So, that had to be

33:19covered. We I found out when I first got

33:22here that the uh chairman of the board

33:23of assessors did not think that the

33:25budget for taxation on new growth was

33:27accurate. It was too high. So that's in

33:29here. If there's other stuff out there,

33:31we've got the auditor's mail room in for

33:33150. That's what I've discovered in the

33:35six weeks that I've been here. If

33:37there's more, I don't know about it. I

33:39do know of a couple of areas and school

33:40transportation is one of them where

33:42they're actively managing to try to

33:44bring the number down to the

33:45appropriation level. Whether they can or

33:47they can't, I don't know. It's it's

33:48early in the year and I do think that's

33:50going to be a problem as councelor

33:52Farwell said going ahead. It's been a

33:54problem for several years running now. I

33:56think we've got a got a structural

33:57problem there with the current level of

33:59services.

34:00>> Right. So the um the non-net school

34:03deficit uh spending deficit of the 4.7

34:06that secure last year's school

34:09transportation deficit. Correct. Um and

34:12we're essentially anticipating um

34:14another uh deficit this year in our

34:16transportation budget. Yeah, they've got

34:18money more than they had last year in

34:19the budget, I think, but I'm not sure

34:21that it's going to be adequate to cover

34:22the rated and and that's really a level

34:24of service. You know, what what do you

34:26want to do with the service pattern that

34:28we've got because the spending is

34:29greater than the appropriation? We need

34:31to correct that. Oh,

34:32>> absolutely. It seems like our uh history

34:34has been uh the school will ask for a

34:37certain amount, we'll undercut that

34:38amount, you know, by a few millions of

34:41dollars and then come back later to try

34:44to fill in a budget or a a a deficit.

34:48And essentially, it's it kind of becomes

34:52open-ended at that point instead of us

34:55determining what number we can afford,

34:57that being the number, and then

34:59everybody work within that number.

35:01>> Correct. Correct. Correct. And the

35:03problem now is we haven't as many means

35:05as we may have had in the past to

35:07address those shortfalls as they emerge

35:09during the year. We just don't have

35:11those reserves anymore.

35:12>> Right. Um Okay. So

35:17you we talk about revenue and

35:20liabilities and that's always kind of

35:22been a

35:24really a murky kind of topic over the

35:27last few years where you know um we we

35:31we later learn of liabilities that are

35:34not on the books and then we learn that

35:36um revenue projections are way out of

35:39whack. And all of that is basically so

35:41that we can pass a budget in in June and

35:45then scramble the rest of the year

35:48trying to

35:49>> fill in revenue gaps and and liability

35:53uh gaps. And we just can't do it

35:56anymore. That's not the way we we run

35:58our we we can run our city. And what's

36:00frustrating it seems that we don't

36:02always seem um prior and I I I

36:05appreciate your cander um both to this

36:08council. I've been following your

36:09comments uh both with the school

36:11committee and our accounts committee. Um

36:14both you and our uh auditor. Uh I I

36:17think um you know your transparency is

36:19refreshing. Um but you know over the

36:23last few years it it it's been less so.

36:26And um we can only

36:30try to over o provide oversight when the

36:33numbers that are being presented to us

36:35are accurate.

36:36>> That's fair. and and they haven't been.

36:38And that that's frustrating um for us.

36:41And so we look at a police station uh

36:44that had an expected revenue of $4

36:46million, which we all made mention at

36:48the time at the budget at the budget

36:50hearing that that was probably overly

36:53optimistic. And as we see today, we put

36:55out an RFP and how many takers did we

36:58get? Zero.

36:59>> Yeah.

37:01uh when we were when we were told that,

37:03you know, there was high confidence uh

37:05that that uh building would be sold. Um

37:08you talk about new growth that there was

37:10a $2 million estimate of new growth and

37:12you said uh the actual numbers are

37:15coming in significantly less.

37:18So there's another overshot. um the del

37:21charge as the uh DPW commissioner said

37:24and it was plainly said uh at the

37:26budgetary hearing, we're not funding $2

37:29million of a of a contractual obligation

37:34and the sole reason that we weren't

37:35going to pay it is so that we could

37:37provide a level funded budget. Um again,

37:40there's nothing we can do as as a

37:42council except expose it and say, "Hey,

37:46that's not what we should be doing." But

37:48then and in the back end it always seems

37:50to be that that do signs off on it,

37:54right? You know, it's so that that

37:55becomes the frustrating part.

37:57>> I think Department of Revenue has um

37:59been trying to assist the city in coming

38:01into a better balance living with the

38:04optimistic projections that they were

38:06receiving. I think they were suspicious

38:08of a lot of them and this is the year

38:10they've said we're not going to be

38:11assisting you in those in those

38:13estimates anymore. You've got to have a

38:15more accurate approach. So, I'm here.

38:17There's a convenient time for them to

38:19say that's enough. I'm in agreement with

38:21that. That's enough. Uh, as we move

38:23ahead, councelor, there are going to be

38:25some hard decisions that have to be made

38:27by everybody uh, leadership of the city

38:29appointed and elected and then we'll

38:32we'll go from there because we need to

38:33get back into balance. I don't see an

38:35easy way to do it. I think you had some

38:37heard some private conversations with me

38:39about some of the approaches I think

38:41might work, but I don't have any of the

38:42authority to do that yet. We'll take the

38:44council and the mayor and the department

38:46of revenue and the legislature all

38:47agreeing. I don't know if we'll even

38:49work, but we've got things we've got to

38:51do because the level of service that's

38:54built into the budgets right now is well

38:56beyond the amount that the revenue the

38:59real revenue capacity of the city is

39:00able to support. So, how we bring those

39:02two back into balance, there are things

39:04that can be done quickly. I think I

39:06think one is you've had before you

39:08before is with respect to the water

39:10revenues to cover that del charge. So

39:12it's covered by water as opposed to

39:13general fund revenues. That's one, but

39:15that's just a small piece. The rest of

39:17it is how do we run the city? What are

39:19we willing to tolerate and not tolerate

39:21with respect to service? And once you've

39:23decided that, where do you get the

39:24revenues? And if you haven't got the

39:25revenues to support it, you got to make

39:27the cuts because you can't you can't run

39:29it without having the real revenues,

39:32>> right? And just going back to that del

39:33charge, why why why you're saying that

39:36our water enterprise fund cannot cover

39:38this charge?

39:38>> I don't think they have a sufficient

39:40revenue base right now to cover it. I

39:41think that they need a rate increased in

39:43order to be able to say we pay for

39:44what's in the budget now and that charge

39:46that's now being covered by a reserve

39:48fund.

39:50>> Um

39:52I guess that's the the matters before us

39:55um on this order. I think I'll get a

39:57little more depth into the budget uh at

39:59our resolve. So um that's really all I

40:02have on this matter. Thank you, Mr.

40:03Chair.

40:04>> Thank you, councelor. Councilors, is a

40:06motion properly made and seconded on the

40:08floor? All in favor? All opposed? The

40:11motion passes.

40:12>> Thank you, council.

40:13>> Thank you, Mr. CFO.

40:14>> Item seven, resolve. Be it resolved by

40:16the Brockton City Council to invite John

40:18Condan, interim chief financial officer,

40:20Mayor Moses Rodriguez, and Juan

40:22Gonzalez, city auditor, to appear before

40:24the finance committee to discuss and

40:26provide an update on the current status

40:28of the FY27 budget and close out of the

40:31FY26 budget. invited mayor Moses

40:34Rodriguez andor designate interim CFO

40:36John Con andor designignate city auditor

40:39Juan Gonzalez andor designignate.

40:42>> Good evening Mr. CFO. Good evening Mr.

40:44Mayor. Um if you want to start with a

40:48statement or presentation and then we'll

40:49go to the spot.

40:50>> Well, it's it's pretty much what I just

40:52said to councelor Thompson. I think

40:54you've got the multi-million dollar

40:57budget shortfall that's looming for

41:00fiscal 28. Fiscal 27. When I arrived, I

41:03was assured by my predecessor it was in

41:06balance. It wasn't. So, we had to fix

41:08fiscal 27. We had some issues with

41:10respect to disputes between the city and

41:13the school department as to how we were

41:14going to charge for pension costs. It

41:17took a long time to get that resolved,

41:18but it has been. So, I think we're now

41:20able to move forward there. Now, the

41:22question is, what do we do with the

41:24passage of this on Monday night? What do

41:26we do to make fiscal 28 in balance? I

41:28don't have an answer for you right now

41:30except to say it's a big number and it's

41:33going to require some pain to get into

41:34balance. I'm hoping to find a way to do

41:36it which has a minimization on service

41:39and layoffs, but I don't think it will

41:41be

41:43I don't think it's possible to say we're

41:44not going to have some of that kind of

41:46pain. I just don't see the revenue base

41:49sufficient to get us back to where we

41:51need to be. And even if we do some

41:53borrowing to help ease the pain and

41:55spread it out, that means you're going

41:56to be paying in future budgets for the

41:58repayment of that borrowing with an

42:00interest charge on it. So there's no

42:01easy way out of it. We're we're in a bad

42:03way with respect to next year's budget.

42:05And I'll be giving you more as I get

42:08better sense having got all this behind

42:10us as to what can I do in terms of a

42:11forecast for the next few years to see

42:14what will it take with realistic

42:15revenues and realistic growth estimates

42:18for expenses to bring the two back into

42:20balance. So, I wish I could say

42:22something different, but I can't.

42:25>> Thank you, Council Thompson. You're the

42:27sponsor on this. The floor is yours.

42:29>> Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair, and again uh

42:31good evening, gentlemen. Um, so I I was

42:34paying attention to uh uh the auditor's

42:37uh presentation um at the accounts

42:39committee uh earlier this week uh uh

42:42last week uh in which uh you both

42:44attended. So, um, one of the slides

42:46basically said, um, we used in fiscal 27

42:50about $12 million of our stabilization

42:53funds, uh, to to paper, you know, to

42:56meet our budgetary gaps uh, for fiscal

42:5927. Uh, this this order um that we just

43:03um voted on is $18 million. So that's

43:06about a $30 million in stabilization

43:10funds that we had to expend basically

43:13for fiscal 27

43:15>> past,

43:16>> right? For for for past uh budgetary uh

43:19gaps. So I think I think it's clear we

43:23we have structural issues.

43:25>> That's the problem

43:26>> uh with with our with our uh budget uh

43:29in the city of Brockton. Um, I know we

43:32have a policy that we want to move

43:33beyond using stabilization funds uh to

43:37meet our um our budgetary needs. Um, you

43:41know, it's a noble goal, but we we we

43:43haven't abided by that in the last I

43:46don't know how many years. Um, so saying

43:49that we had to use $30 million just to

43:52be whole

43:54makes my fear of fiscal 28 outrageous. I

43:59mean, on average, let's say it's that

44:02$12 million of free cash and

44:05stabilization that we use to um plug our

44:08budgetary gap. Let's just say that's the

44:11number. And we now no longer have any

44:14stabilization monies to meet that $12

44:17million deficit. Um, I know you you've

44:21stated that you're looking at different

44:22alternatives so that we can uh maybe do

44:26some potential borrowing, but that's

44:27going to require um state approval. Um,

44:31we don't know if the state's going to

44:32provide that approval. Um, we don't

44:35know, you know, we don't know the terms

44:36of any deals, what what the extent of

44:38the borrowing would be, what they're

44:40going to allow us. Um and so let's say

44:43we're not able to um [snorts] you know

44:47borrow any monies to meet this uh this

44:50gap.

44:52Um we've got limited we got limited

44:54options uh for fiscal 28. Um and and

44:57[clears throat] it seems our health care

44:59costs keep rising, our pension costs

45:03keep rising. Um our uh transportation

45:06costs are are still in flux. um

45:09[clears throat] there's no really good

45:12answers on how we're going to meet uh

45:15our budgetary requirements without

45:18slashing services. So I guess that's

45:20where it starts. Um

45:24I don't how would we go about I mean

45:26it's our services are police, fire,

45:30water,

45:32schools, right? I mean, we're already,

45:36you know, we're already undermanned in

45:38our fire department. Um, we're, excuse

45:41me, our police department. We're

45:43becoming more and more under manned. My

45:44understanding is that the uh the fire

45:47rescue has to go out of service because

45:49we don't have enough people to man that

45:52that truck. Um, I I I so I may not be

45:56100% on that, but that's what I heard.

45:58Um, and obviously with chapter 70,

46:03you know, we we don't have the ability

46:05that we've had in the past

46:07>> to to put the funding gap on our schools

46:11because of mandatory spending

46:13requirements. Um, and then we're losing

46:15the Student Opportunity Act. So even

46:18there, that cushion uh that we had in

46:20the past to meet our uh um non-net

46:23school spending requirements are are

46:25gone. So,

46:27um I'm just, you know, looking at the IG

46:31report uh that was

46:34uh that was provided to us uh around

46:36this time last year are um all the

46:39different audits um that we went through

46:43due to the fiscal 23 uh budgetary uh

46:46deficit. You know, they they they they

46:49kind of said some overarching a lot of

46:51it was was on schools. I think we've

46:54gone a long way with of tightening up um

46:57uh the schools and I, you know, thank uh

46:59attorney Sai and and Superintendent uh

47:01Tahiliani for the tremendous amount of

47:03work uh that they put into that. Um

47:06we've we we seem to have had a

47:08contentious

47:09uh relationship with the former CFO and

47:12it, you know, we couldn't get our

47:13numbers straight and it it seemed um you

47:16know, that was really headed in a bad

47:18direction. I see that you've guys kind

47:20of come to some uh you know meeting of

47:23the minds when it when it comes to our

47:25pension obligation and I'm glad thank

47:27you because what they wanted was

47:29certainty the fact that we can provide

47:31them that certainty now we can budget

47:33budget around uh that certainty but

47:36looking at these these reports one of

47:39the things that they were talking about

47:40is that that we as a council as city

47:43leaders pay attention right that we ask

47:47you know do our due diligence that we

47:49ask questions. Um, and I think, you

47:52know, to um, you know, to the, uh, uh,

47:55you know, real betterment of my, um, my

47:57fellow counselors, we've been asking

47:59those questions. I think, you know, we

48:01spend a lot of time, uh, on these

48:03resolves and and different orders asking

48:05why are we doing or what what the uh,

48:08what's our budgetary outlook. Um, I can

48:10say and you don't need to respond, but I

48:12I think we were not given all the

48:15information um in the past uh regarding

48:17our budget to the point where we're now,

48:20you know, have to write another $18

48:22million check uh to to to fill in these

48:25structural gaps. Um, so,

48:29you know, we we've been doing our job by

48:31asking the questions, by staying

48:33involved. Um, and another one was nobody

48:37was sounding the alarm uh back in 23

48:40that basically everything was going

48:42underneath the radar. Nobody was aware.

48:44Um, and when they became aware, there

48:46was no action really made. Well, public

48:51uh uh counselors, Mr. Mayor, ding ling,

48:55right? The the alarm, we're sounding the

48:57alarm. Um, Mr. Con, you've been very

49:00articulate in in how you're presenting

49:02it. Um, and so now it becomes what do we

49:06do as a council, right? We passed, we

49:09just, you know, recommended favorably

49:11the 18 million so that we can set our

49:14tax rate. If we can't set our tax rate,

49:16forget it. Shut, you know, shut off the

49:18lights, close the doors, um, we're done.

49:21So, the fact that we can now, uh, set

49:23our tax rate, um, is one further step in

49:26trying to resolve this overall crisis.

49:29But what you know I it's it's you know

49:32people ask well what are you doing you

49:34know counselor what are you doing you

49:36you you should be able to fix this. Um

49:39what what recommendations can you give

49:41to us as a council to help you

49:44[clears throat] or what you know what is

49:46our role as oversight but [snorts]

49:48we're not working daytoday in in your

49:51finance office or in the auditor's

49:53office or in the mayor's office. We're

49:55not writing checks. We're not paying

49:57bills. um we're not seeing the numbers,

50:00you know, daytoday uh working with the

50:02department heads. So, what what what do

50:04you as a CFO see our role in in trying

50:08to bridge this structural deficit?

50:10>> Approval of plans and recommendations or

50:13alterations to them if you don't like

50:14them. So, now I think it's now on me and

50:17my office to create for the mayor and

50:19for you and for the school side an

50:22approximation of what I think the 28

50:24budget's going to look like. It won't be

50:26the budget. You know, we're talking

50:27about a forecast, not not a line by line

50:29budget, a higher order of magnitude, but

50:31what do I think it looks like? How do we

50:33bring that budget into balance with the

50:35present revenue structure? With the

50:37present revenue structure, and how do we

50:39do it? If we're able to borrow, how do

50:41what's the length of time over which we

50:42borrow and pay repay that borrowing?

50:44What I don't know is that is there a way

50:46to make that work with the present

50:48revenue structure? I have my suspicions.

50:51I think the answer to that is no. I

50:53don't think there is a way to preserve

50:54the service level in this city that the

50:56people are accustomed to and want, even

50:58with prudent steps to bring the budget

51:01back into balance without getting

51:02additional revenues, whether they're

51:04from the state or whether they're

51:05internal to the city residents and

51:08asking them to pay more. One of the

51:10other has to be done because the amount

51:11of cutting that needs to be done on the

51:14available budget, it's not the full

51:15budget. You just identified it. school

51:17budgets, net school spending is pretty

51:20much off limits. Not entirely, but it's

51:22pretty much off limits. You don't

51:24[snorts] get home without looking at the

51:26public safety budgets and other

51:27essential services. I think the schools

51:29would say the present transportation

51:31model is pretty important, but I don't

51:33think it can be supported and sustained.

51:35All of that, I think, will come to I'll

51:38come with more specific recommendations

51:40as I create that forecast, fine-tune it,

51:43do iterations on it, and bring it back

51:45to I've got to do that pretty quickly.

51:46We've got this stuff behind us now.

51:48That's my my focus and my office's

51:50focus. But I don't think it gets done

51:52even with a generous assistance of

51:54borrowing because you're going to have

51:55to pay interest on that and pay the loan

51:58back. I don't I don't think we get

51:59there, counselor, without some

52:00assistance from the people who want the

52:02services. That's my professional

52:04opinion. I don't know if anybody else

52:05would share it. And when you see what I

52:07work on, maybe you'll say, "You're

52:08wrong, Jay. Let's let's try another way.

52:10We can live with this cut or that cut."

52:12But I think it's hard to see it. When do

52:14some of those recommendations start

52:15coming before us? Is this uh turn turn

52:17of the uh year? Um

52:19>> yeah, this year.

52:20>> Within a year.

52:21>> Okay.

52:21>> This year.

52:23>> This this calendar year, I mean.

52:24>> Oh, this calendar year. Okay.

52:26>> Because we're going to have to get to

52:27the legislature with whatever assistance

52:29we want from them and we want to get

52:31them as they come back into session.

52:32We'll want to have that in front of

52:33them. And then there I mean if if

52:37unfortunately if layoffs are part of

52:38this deal then you know there are union

52:40contracts that or notices and everything

52:43and time frames that we all have to

52:45abide by. Um

52:48I mean we're not there's no way we're

52:50going to get state permission by the end

52:51of this calendar year. Right. I I I

52:53wouldn't foresee that.

52:54>> They're not in regular session right

52:56now. But I think early in the beginning

52:58of the next year I think you could. I

52:59think you could. Yeah. So we got a

53:01couple months.

53:02>> Okay.

53:03I just um you know whatever assistance

53:06uh you know I can give you I'm sure my

53:09fellow counselors feel the same way. Um

53:12if if it's services related then you

53:14know we

53:16we may have to either you know ask to

53:19raise service fees or cut services. That

53:21seems to be the only way um on some of

53:24these services that we'd be able to

53:25maintain them for the city. Um,

53:28[clears throat] nobody wants to do that.

53:29But the alternative is receiverhip or

53:32you know, just

53:35closing the lights, shutting the doors,

53:36going home.

53:37>> No, even receiverhip doesn't fix the

53:38problem. Council, the problem is here in

53:41Brockton. It's not down in Beacon Hill.

53:43It's here where you've got a service

53:45level which isn't supported by the

53:46current revenue base. And

53:50in municipal finance, many of your costs

53:52are already fixed. But on the short

53:55term, almost all of them are fixed

53:57because you've got union contracts.

53:59You've got you've just got a lot of

54:01fixed cost and you know, no revenue

54:03flexibility. You know, you've got two

54:05and a half and you got what the state

54:06gives you. You can pick a little bit up

54:07on fees, but mainly it's the gap between

54:10what the tax and state aid covers and

54:14what you're spending on on services.

54:16That's a big gap right now and it's been

54:17allowed to grow.

54:19>> [snorts]

54:20>> Well, we'll talk more about that

54:22specific issue as we set the tax rate

54:24and um see uh what our um you know uh

54:28what's that the um

54:32ceiling the tax ceiling and

54:34>> yeah the the annual levy limit we pretty

54:36much you know we got the growth but

54:38we're not we've not got a levy capacity

54:39under that limit. Where you do have a

54:41lot is in the ability of the voters to

54:43say yes because you're only taxing at

54:45about $12 per thousand for your

54:46residents and that's not that's a lot of

54:48room there if they were willing to do

54:50it. You the lobby is $190 million $190

54:53million annual 5 10 million 5 to 10

54:57million isn't much on the tax bill but

54:59it's a lot to fix these problems.

55:01>> Understood. Well, we we'll look forward

55:03to uh that discussion uh in the future.

55:06Mr. Mayor.

55:07>> No, I just wanted to basically uh chime

55:10in and and and second what Jay was

55:12saying is that I, you know, sitting up

55:14there with the rest of you guys for the

55:15last 12 years that I was up there. I've

55:17always said from from day one that we

55:20continue to spend beyond our means in

55:23this city. I mean we got to be realistic

55:26you know where you know often we're

55:28discussing giving raises to our you know

55:32you got to remember that around almost

55:3490% of our total budget is personnel

55:37related budget. So when anytime you're

55:39looking at giving a group of people 3%

55:422% you know 4% in some instances you are

55:46basically spending beyond your means.

55:48you know, you're you're getting two and

55:50a half percent in taxation that comes in

55:52to to two and a half and if you're

55:54giving uh 3% automatically, you're

55:57you're a deficit. [snorts] And we're

55:59lucky enough to have the 18, you know,

56:02the the pension reserve where we can

56:05borrow the funds from that reserve to be

56:08a basically be able to cure this uh this

56:12hole that we have. I've only been here

56:1410 months, but I'm not looking for

56:15excuses to say, you know, this has

56:17nothing to do with me. It has to do with

56:19all of us. You know, these are issues

56:21that some that we found here, some that

56:23we continue to create. Uh because every

56:25time we have a discussion here, we

56:26continue to create problems, you know,

56:28and I think we have to uh it's like I

56:30was telling Jay and the folks

56:31downstairs, everything is on the table.

56:33We got to put everything on the table

56:34and look at it. uh the folks in the

56:36school department, we've been meeting on

56:38a every other week basis because we're

56:41trying to come up with solutions to some

56:43of these problems. Uh we've been talking

56:45about from things that we can control

56:48and things that we can't even control.

56:50Uh this issue is going around through

56:51other communities as well. I mean, New

56:53Bedford is in the same actually in a in

56:55a worse boat than we're in and some of

56:56these other communities are Boston and

56:58some of the other ones. But uh our

57:01problem here in Brockton has to be

57:02solved by us, you know, people from

57:04Brockton. We have to take care of this

57:06and be able to handle this because if we

57:08don't, we're going to run this city to

57:10to the ground. You know, if we continue

57:12to do this, I [snorts] mean, it's you

57:14don't have to be a super genius to

57:15figure this out. If you're getting $5

57:17in, you can't spend six, seven, eight,

57:19$9. You can only spend what you're

57:22bringing in. That's why we're spending

57:25every single ounce of our energy looking

57:27for businesses to come in and help us

57:30because we cannot continue to rely on

57:32the taxpayers to, you know, to chime in

57:35with their 1% here, 2% there because

57:37that's not going to cure this. You know,

57:39you cannot, [clears throat]

57:40you know, even if you're able to

57:41increase to the levy, the levy is only 2

57:45and a half%. You know, and it's not

57:47going to do much for you and anything.

57:49you know, you can't buy police cars, we

57:50can't buy fire trucks, we can't do any

57:52of the things that we need to do, uh,

57:54getting the, you know, the the two and a

57:56half% that we normally get from our, you

57:58know, uh, presidents. So, we got to

58:01focus on and basically developing and

58:04creating that that commercial tax base.

58:06And that's why I think we rely on you

58:08folks up here now uh to help us process

58:12this and and be be uh commercial

58:17business friendly in a way to allow us

58:20to be able to do that to be able to grow

58:22that because if we can't that we can't

58:24sit here and tell these you know the

58:25unions that we deal with on a on a on a

58:27regular basis don't worry about it when

58:29I become mayor or when I become governor

58:31I'm going to take care of you because

58:33that's an impossibility. We keep

58:34spending beyond our means and it doesn't

58:36matter who's sitting here, who's sitting

58:38where you are. If we don't cure this,

58:41it's only a matter of time before we run

58:43the city to the ground. And we got to be

58:45able to to take the the strong steps

58:49that we need to in order to make it work

58:50because if we don't, it's not going to

58:52fly. It's not going to fly. We've been

58:54living on, you know, uh, balancing our

58:57books with our reserves, you know, the,

58:59uh, the free cash that we get here and

59:01there, but we've known that the chickens

59:03have come home now. You know, when we're

59:05going back to 2001 to cure the books,

59:092021 to cure the books. This is 6 years

59:11ago almost, you know, that we're dealing

59:14with these issues and we're going to

59:15continue to have these issues, but we

59:17need to take the tough votes when we

59:19need to. We need to basically support

59:21the causes that we need to. And when the

59:24time comes for us to make the the tough

59:26calls, we have to make the tough calls

59:27because we cannot continue to do this no

59:30matter who we're trying to pacify out

59:33there. You know, it's not it's not fair

59:36that we don't have enough police in our

59:37streets to deal with the issues that we

59:39have. Uh because we're we're spending

59:42monies elsewhere. But at the same time,

59:44we need to be smart about it exactly how

59:46we go about doing this in order for for

59:47us to do this. And and frankly, the

59:50council has to help as well. You know,

59:52this uh not in my neighborhood, not in

59:55my backyard type of mentality that we've

59:57had, I personally have had as well

59:59sitting up there. I think we got to look

1:00:01at that beyond that and say, how can we

1:00:03do this? What can we do to increase

1:00:06those numbers so that we are able to

1:00:08balance these things out on our own

1:00:10without outside help? If we don't change

1:00:12that mindset, I don't think we're going

1:00:14to be able to do that.

1:00:15>> Well, commercial development is

1:00:16definitely going to be one one avenue.

1:00:18uh to help us resolve this. And I know

1:00:20um you know we've we've invited um a few

1:00:23companies uh coming to Brock. So that's

1:00:26that's that's a definitely a step in the

1:00:27right direction. Uh this council and uh

1:00:30uh the city is going to depend on the

1:00:31leadership of both uh you Mr. Mayor and

1:00:34uh you Mr. CFO um in you know in that

1:00:37decision-m process. It's it's you people

1:00:39who have to develop the plan and then

1:00:41bring it to us and and and then we'll

1:00:43have to vote. Um just one last thing uh

1:00:45on the pension stabilization. Now the

1:00:48the reason my understanding of the the

1:00:50reason that we we put together that

1:00:52stabil stabilization fund was to hedge

1:00:56against a down market. Now luckily uh

1:00:59we've we've had an up market for the

1:01:01last few years. Um I'm hoping that's

1:01:03going to continue to be uh the case. I

1:01:05believe our our stabilization fund

1:01:07depends on about 6% um 6% return uh on

1:01:12on um well 6% return or if that's what I

1:01:16remember

1:01:16>> it's it's the estimate now it was 6.75

1:01:19at the last valuation we raised that to

1:01:227% that provided a little bit of

1:01:23budgetary assistance for the city in

1:01:26funding the remaining unfunded liability

1:01:28we also extended the schedule to 2038

1:01:30from 2032 for the same reason um the

1:01:33market's been kind to us this year.

1:01:36Actually, the city of Brockton's pension

1:01:38board has had one of the better success

1:01:40rates in managing its investments over

1:01:41the last few years of any of the boards

1:01:43in the state. So, but markets go down,

1:01:46right?

1:01:46>> Anybody who knows, you know, you don't

1:01:48get an up market every every year. That

1:01:50was the purpose of that fund. It isn't

1:01:52exhausted. Uh to the extent that we're

1:01:54able to find some relief in the

1:01:56appropriations that are before you

1:01:58tonight, then isn't spent out of that

1:02:01appropriation. It stays in that fund.

1:02:03And you know, we'll look to add to it as

1:02:04we move as we move ahead.

1:02:07One of the biggest problems we face is

1:02:08that chapter 324 reserve that's been

1:02:11used to plug the budget and then

1:02:13replenish with re free cash, which kills

1:02:16the free cash. Now, we don't have that

1:02:17much free cash. So, we've got to look at

1:02:19a way of dealing with that. Perhaps we

1:02:21can get some legislative relief so we

1:02:23don't have to fully appropriate it in

1:02:24the next couple of years. It takes away

1:02:26reserves, but it gives us some budgetary

1:02:28relief. That's a trade-off that's not

1:02:29comfortable, but we might have to make

1:02:30it.

1:02:31>> Right. And when's that stabilization

1:02:33fund require replenishment?

1:02:35>> I'm sorry.

1:02:36>> The the seven uh the excuse me the 325

1:02:39um that requires replenishment, right?

1:02:42Aren't we obligated

1:02:43>> present the it has to be replenished and

1:02:45it has to be increased each year to the

1:02:47extent that the budget itself in

1:02:48increases but I have had discussions

1:02:50with the department of revenue about

1:02:52getting some relief as part of this

1:02:53balancing plan with the need to fully

1:02:56replenish that in the next budget.

1:02:57>> Okay. Well, let's um you know, we let's

1:03:01pray for state assistance um and uh

1:03:04let's pray for an up market um so that

1:03:07we don't uh suffer any consequences from

1:03:09drawing down on this uh pension

1:03:11stabilization fund. I just uh I'm going

1:03:13to end it with um my thanks to you um

1:03:17Mr. CFO for for being forthright and

1:03:20transparent on um our current fiscal um

1:03:24situation. Uh I feel like we we haven't

1:03:27always had uh the you know the straight

1:03:30shooting uh from from uh that office. So

1:03:33uh thank you for that and um you know uh

1:03:37we just have a lot of work to do. And

1:03:39[clears throat] can can I make a comment

1:03:40on thank thank you for the compliment. I

1:03:41appreciate it. It's it's nice. But uh

1:03:43I've been back now for 6 weeks. I have

1:03:45found nothing but willingness on the

1:03:47part of people in the city, including in

1:03:49my office, the treasur's office, the

1:03:50mayor's office, the school department,

1:03:52to work ahead cooperatively to try to

1:03:54get ourselves out of this.

1:03:56>> It's about the future. Absolutely. I

1:03:57appreciate that. Thank you, gentlemen.

1:03:59Uh thank you, Mr. Chair.

1:04:01>> Thank you, councelor Councel Green,

1:04:03followed by Councelor Farwell.

1:04:07>> Thank you, just a couple questions. um

1:04:10on the uh pension uh stabilization fund.

1:04:14What's the the other balance on that

1:04:16after this?

1:04:18>> It's a little over 4 million about $4

1:04:20million after this appropriation.

1:04:22>> Okay.

1:04:24And are there any specific requirements

1:04:28on

1:04:29um uh replenish replenishing that uh

1:04:33fund?

1:04:34>> It's not like the other fund which has a

1:04:36statutory element to it. However, the

1:04:39fund was established for a purpose which

1:04:41wasn't the purpose for which it's being

1:04:42used. That's a management decision in

1:04:44terms of using it the way we have. But

1:04:46we ought to rebuild it because it was,

1:04:48you know, built there so that in the

1:04:50event of a down market, the uh pension

1:04:53assessment to the city could be

1:04:54mitigated somewhat by that fund.

1:04:56>> Okay?

1:04:57>> So, we ought to try to bring it back.

1:04:58>> Okay?

1:04:59>> I want to re one more time. This has

1:05:01nothing to do with the pension

1:05:03entitlements or the ability of the

1:05:05city's pension system to pay the

1:05:06pensions that are due or are coming. The

1:05:08system is probably one of the best

1:05:11funded systems in the entire

1:05:12Commonwealth right now. We're about 90%

1:05:14fully funded and you don't want to get

1:05:16to 100%. You want to be just below that.

1:05:18So, we're we're well well maintained on

1:05:21the pensions themselves. This was to

1:05:24provide protection for future budgetary

1:05:26uh variances. Okay,

1:05:29>> thank you for highlighting um for

1:05:31highlighting that. I think it's

1:05:32important for the uh the city um to know

1:05:35that employees and retirees to know

1:05:38that. So, thank you for highlighting

1:05:40that. Um do you do you anticipate um in

1:05:45FY 28 or early um subsequent um years

1:05:49that the the budget will be um

1:05:52sufficient uh for us to uh commence some

1:05:57kind of replenishment of this of this

1:05:59fund?

1:05:59>> Uh I don't know. I think we may not do

1:06:02much better than what we have right now

1:06:04plus whatever isn't spent during this

1:06:06this year and and is allowed to grow by

1:06:08interest. uh and how much relief the

1:06:11department of revenue gives us with

1:06:12respect to that chapter 324 account

1:06:14which is statutory.

1:06:16>> Okay.

1:06:16>> We need to have special legislation that

1:06:18but I my concern is the city has an

1:06:22exposure on some of its um liability

1:06:25accounts because we're self-insured and

1:06:27when we were self-insured with adequate

1:06:29reserves that's one thing. When you're

1:06:30self-insured with not adequate reserves,

1:06:33then you mean may need to take some

1:06:34other steps in the budget itself to

1:06:36provide more protection protection and

1:06:38that may diminish the amount at which

1:06:41you can rebuild those reserves that

1:06:42ought to be rebuilt. That's um that's a

1:06:44trade-off.

1:06:45>> Okay. All right. For the uh the non net

1:06:48school spending um

1:06:52um uh 4.7

1:06:55million, how much of that is uh uh

1:06:58transportation? I think that's almost

1:07:00entirely transportation. I'd have to

1:07:02look at the details again, but I think

1:07:03it's almost entirely transportation.

1:07:05>> Okay. All right. And uh generally, are

1:07:08we are we looking are we anticipating

1:07:11around the same amount or uh

1:07:13significant?

1:07:13>> Well, depends on what they're able to do

1:07:14with respect to the budget they've got

1:07:16right now and how they they're looking

1:07:18high [snorts] and low at steps they can

1:07:20take to diminish the amount of spending

1:07:22that's going on. Some of it has to do

1:07:24with the uh private bus services. Some

1:07:26of it has to do with the service itself.

1:07:28there's steps they can take. Council

1:07:30Farwell has a good idea. I think this if

1:07:32we need uh professional uh route

1:07:36modeling assistance from the outside, we

1:07:38ought to pay for it. I don't know if

1:07:39that's going to really resolve the

1:07:42problem, but we ought to look at

1:07:43everything we can to see what we can do

1:07:45to bring that service back expense back

1:07:48into line with the appropriation. And if

1:07:51we can't, then we got to decide what

1:07:52we're going to do. What do we want to

1:07:54tell the parents with with respect to

1:07:56how much busing we're going to give

1:07:57their kids? Okay. So, you're saying we

1:07:59have to look at the level of um services

1:08:01and also the efficiency of the other

1:08:03[clears throat] services that are being

1:08:05off offer it in order to

1:08:07>> Yeah. As me just said is everything's on

1:08:08the table. All of it. All of it.

1:08:10Staffing every service on the table.

1:08:13>> Okay. All right. Um

1:08:16let me just say a couple other things

1:08:18and then um then I'll yield the floor.

1:08:21Um I look forward to those um

1:08:23projections that you're going to share

1:08:25with the other council. I think um it is

1:08:29critical um that we have accurate clear

1:08:35information um in order to um fulfill

1:08:39the other responsibilities um that the

1:08:42other voters have asked us to. Um so

1:08:46thank you for your willingness to to do

1:08:48that. I look forward to receiving that

1:08:50um um in in in in um soon as you're able

1:08:54to um to do that. And and let me end on

1:08:57this note. We we do have a lot of

1:08:59challenges. Um um during the uh budget

1:09:03hearings um my first comment was

1:09:09um

1:09:11technically we we have a balanced

1:09:14budget. However, structurally,

1:09:16>> yeah,

1:09:17>> we we don't.

1:09:18>> Right.

1:09:19>> Um, looking at the budget for the first

1:09:21time, I saw some structural gaps that

1:09:24really concerned me. And for the past

1:09:27several years, we've been relying on um

1:09:32one-time um funding, if you will, to uh

1:09:35to cover um uh reoccurring cost, and

1:09:40that was a concern of mine. So

1:09:42structurally

1:09:44um we we have some issues and I think

1:09:46you've um you've alluded to that that we

1:09:49really have to take a hard look at the

1:09:51structure of our budget and make some

1:09:54hard decisions. Um there um and I

1:09:58absolutely agree. Um let me end on this

1:10:00note. um we have the challenges

1:10:04um

1:10:06and and I do think that we we've started

1:10:10on a good footing um in addressing

1:10:14[clears throat]

1:10:15some of those um challenges and

1:10:17specifically what I'm referring to is

1:10:19the the the relationship between um

1:10:23council city and our schools. I think

1:10:26we're at a point where um all

1:10:30stakeholders, all parties are

1:10:33communicating, working um

1:10:35collaboratively. Information is being uh

1:10:38provided and I want to commend um you uh

1:10:42Mr. Mayor, the other the superintendent,

1:10:44the school committee, the staff of the

1:10:46school committee, um everyone who is

1:10:49involved. I think I think we're starting

1:10:51off on a good foot in terms of having

1:10:54honest open um communication and um it's

1:10:58my hope and prayer that we continue to

1:11:00do that because we are all on the same

1:11:02team. There's only one city of Brockton

1:11:05and we cannot afford to uh to fail and

1:11:09especially our students, our young

1:11:11people. we have to leave them a strong,

1:11:14viable, and vibrant city. And we need to

1:11:18do what it takes to do that. And so I

1:11:20encourage everyone um to please let's

1:11:23continue to work together, make the hard

1:11:26decisions um be clear and accurate,

1:11:30honest and open um in what's happening

1:11:33um so that citizens are well informed

1:11:35and they understand the decisions that

1:11:37are being made. So thank you again. um

1:11:39appreciate your time and the

1:11:41information. Mr. Mr. Chair,

1:11:43>> thank you councelor Councelor Farwell.

1:11:46>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, [clears throat]

1:11:48gentlemen, Mr. Mayor, and Mr. Condan. I

1:11:54unfortunately my comments may be taken

1:11:56out of context and they're not directed

1:11:58at any particular person, not directed

1:11:59at either of you. But having been

1:12:02through the the very severe fiscal

1:12:05constraints in past years with you, Mr.

1:12:07Condon and knowing that actually the

1:12:09mayor is he's in a worse position

1:12:11because you and I had some options open

1:12:14uh well it started with Mayor Petaro and

1:12:16then it carried over to me. You were

1:12:19able to lay off in all city departments.

1:12:22We don't have that option with the

1:12:23school department now because they're

1:12:25guaranteed their uh net school spending

1:12:28and and that's fine because the kids

1:12:31need the programs and we don't want to

1:12:33lose our our teaching staff. What I

1:12:36don't understand is that we routinely

1:12:38fill positions in this city even knowing

1:12:42all of what we've discussed tonight. We

1:12:45have a fiscal problem. And I'll give you

1:12:48an example. I believe a custodian just

1:12:52left our employment the other day. I

1:12:54think they had a going away party for

1:12:56her. And we already have a junior

1:13:00building custodian advertised internally

1:13:03to the laborers group. I don't know if

1:13:06somebody internally will apply for that.

1:13:08If they don't, I suspect it will go

1:13:10external. Why would we want to take on

1:13:14someone now when they would be very low

1:13:16in seniority and probably get laid off?

1:13:19>> Yeah.

1:13:19>> If we have fiscal constraints and then

1:13:21we have to pay unemployment benefits.

1:13:24And it isn't the position. It isn't that

1:13:26the position is not needed. It's what

1:13:29are the current circumstances

1:13:31which drive us to the discussions that

1:13:34we're having tonight. I would think that

1:13:37in every department if there is a

1:13:39vacancy, we would have the department

1:13:42head

1:13:43certify

1:13:46uh provide to you that all other options

1:13:49have been looked at. combining work

1:13:51among the remaining employees, perhaps

1:13:53paying someone, a group of people some

1:13:56overtime here and there to get the work

1:13:59done because then you eliminate taking

1:14:01on a new employee with health benefits,

1:14:03dental benefits, and pension

1:14:05liabilities. Let me go on to

1:14:09uh and again, I'm not casting aspersions

1:14:13on a person or an agency. Brockton

1:14:15Emergency Management Agency. We now have

1:14:18a full-time administrative to person

1:14:21working there. The director is part-time

1:14:25and works full-time in Hullbrook. How

1:14:27much foot traffic can there be in the

1:14:29Beimma office? How many phone calls can

1:14:32come into that office? What drives the

1:14:35need to have an administrative two in

1:14:38that office at a time when we are

1:14:40fiscally constrained? I I just don't get

1:14:43it. And I supposedly we have a uh hiring

1:14:47freeze and yet we are advertising

1:14:50positions. I uh refuse maintenance. We

1:14:53just advertise for a refuge maintenance

1:14:55person. I know that will probably be

1:14:57paid for out of the refuge enterprise

1:15:00account. Uh I'm not saying the position

1:15:02isn't needed, but if that person is

1:15:05hired and then they're laid off, we

1:15:07incur unemployment benefits. So either

1:15:10we're serious. And by the way, the last

1:15:12thing is I pulled a report, Mr. Mayor,

1:15:15since January, there have been 124

1:15:18positions filled in this city. 52 of

1:15:22those, however, were the DPW youth

1:15:25positions. So only 72 are city

1:15:28positions. But that is an extraordinary

1:15:31number of people in a city which has

1:15:33fiscal constraints. And and I I'm just

1:15:37concerned. I don't think that we're

1:15:39going to get out of this without having

1:15:41layoffs. If we have layoffs, we're going

1:15:43to have to lay off even more people to

1:15:45cover unemployment. And uh

1:15:50I'm I'm just confounded by the fact that

1:15:53we just seem to be lurching forward in

1:15:55the usual manner and I don't get a sense

1:15:58of urgency. I don't get a sense that we

1:16:01understand where we are and what we're

1:16:03facing. And if I'm wrong, I'll I'll take

1:16:06the criticism, but I I'm just not

1:16:08feeling it. I see the positions flash

1:16:11across the email system and I scratch my

1:16:13head and I say, "Why?"

1:16:16I mean, why? So, that's my those are my

1:16:20comments. I I I agree with Councelor

1:16:23Green. We're all stakeholders. We're all

1:16:25in this together. But right or wrong,

1:16:28Mr. Mayor, it starts with you. And I I I

1:16:31think you have to I would go to all the

1:16:34department heads and say, "You know

1:16:35what? In two weeks, I want a uh a report

1:16:38on how you can cut costs for the

1:16:40remainder of the fiscal year. Are people

1:16:42retiring? Perhaps we'll have some

1:16:45personal services money that we don't

1:16:46have to uh expend and we can get along

1:16:49without that position. But we want both

1:16:52of you to be successful." I I think it's

1:16:56forgotten that we're all residents of

1:16:57the city. We're all taxpayers, too.

1:16:59We're only occupying these positions

1:17:01temporarily. So, we we have an

1:17:03investment in everything that goes on in

1:17:06this council and in the mayor's office

1:17:08in the future when we're simply

1:17:10civilians. But, uh I folks, I just think

1:17:14there needs to be a greater sense of

1:17:16urgency. And and if call me an alarmist,

1:17:20but I remember what it was like when we

1:17:22had two twoman police cruisers on patrol

1:17:26in this city, one north and one south

1:17:29because we laid off 31 police officers

1:17:32and 35 firefighters and 200 teachers and

1:17:36it was a most unpleasant experience.

1:17:40>> Thank you,

1:17:41>> counselor. Can

1:17:43>> Mr. Mayor?

1:17:43>> Yeah. Can I uh just uh counselor just to

1:17:46address a couple things that you brought

1:17:48up and um the reason why we actually

1:17:51felt that it was important for us to

1:17:53have a um a full-time person at Beimma,

1:17:56it was with all the issues that we had

1:17:58last year with the snow and the lack of

1:18:00coordination that exists because as you

1:18:02said uh the director of Beimma is a

1:18:05part-time director here in the city

1:18:08[gasps] and we're a city ofund probably

1:18:10115,000 people and our emergency manager

1:18:13agement is not where it needs to be. And

1:18:16we felt that if we have somebody that

1:18:18actually works out of that office,

1:18:19perhaps we can look at additional ways

1:18:22of funding emergency management in this

1:18:24city, go after some some grants, go

1:18:27after some ideas and some thoughts that

1:18:30basically would coordinate at least

1:18:32bring back or pay for the position that

1:18:34we brought in to be that office holder

1:18:37in the in the Beimma department. Um the

1:18:41refues I think our refuge department is

1:18:43down to three people

1:18:46and it was understood that we needed to

1:18:49do something in terms of at least

1:18:51bringing that fourth person in to

1:18:54basically handle that because what we're

1:18:55doing right now is we're killing the um

1:18:59not just the employees with the work

1:19:00that they need to do but the fact that

1:19:02we're we're killing the overtime within

1:19:04those departments because it has to be

1:19:06covered one way or the other. So what

1:19:08we're spending in overtime could very

1:19:10much well pay for the position that that

1:19:13junior person would bring and that's the

1:19:16reason. But when you said as far as

1:19:18putting a stop, I've had several

1:19:21department head meetings here and you

1:19:23can ask Jay from from day one once we

1:19:26found out about these issues. We put a

1:19:29real freeze in hiring that all hiring

1:19:32now needs to be okayed by the mayor's

1:19:35office downstairs for us to know and for

1:19:38us to kind of sign off in terms of you

1:19:40know you've got some must hires that you

1:19:42have to figure out what to do in order

1:19:44to provide the services that we're

1:19:46providing. Uh but it has to come through

1:19:49our office for us to make sure that it

1:19:50it's done and done the right way. We've

1:19:52put in some some basically budget cuts

1:19:55and cutting back. For instance, um we

1:19:59had in the budget to hire a a manager of

1:20:03the public safety building and we pulled

1:20:05that back in a way saving over $200,000

1:20:09uh from the from the city's budget in

1:20:11order to manage from within. And that's

1:20:13what we're going to try to do with

1:20:15everything else. I also told the

1:20:17department heads that they need to look

1:20:18into restructuring their department. uh

1:20:22for example uh what happened in the IT

1:20:25department with uh Jorge Vega basically

1:20:28he's restructuring that department to

1:20:31move some people from one place to

1:20:32another to be basically be able to do uh

1:20:35the work that needs to be done because

1:20:37we got to be a little smarter about how

1:20:38we go about doing our business and how

1:20:40to be able to conduct the business as

1:20:43far as that junior person for the um the

1:20:47building department. uh one of the

1:20:48things that we also have to be uh

1:20:52somewhat intelligent in how we go about

1:20:55doing the business of this building

1:20:58because to have just one person in this

1:21:00building at night for safety reasons I

1:21:03don't think it makes sense that we have

1:21:05just one person in this building as they

1:21:08work to clean this building up. So

1:21:10that's why we, you know, just in the

1:21:12same way that you're saying that, you

1:21:14know, we got to have police police

1:21:17officers in certain places, I think this

1:21:19it's it also makes sense to have an

1:21:21additional person in this building just

1:21:22in case something was to happen in the

1:21:24building that you're not leaving that

1:21:26one person here by themselves. But trust

1:21:28you me, when I look at this and I tell

1:21:32you this point blank, this is what's

1:21:33keeping me up at night is the fact that

1:21:36I've said it before and I'm going to

1:21:38continue to say it. If we don't run this

1:21:40as a business, we don't put our foot

1:21:43down and decide take the hard votes and

1:21:47the and the hard cuts, we're going to

1:21:50bankrupt the city. If we continue to go

1:21:53about it, it might not happen within the

1:21:55next two, three or four years, but by,

1:21:58you know, the sixth or seventh year, the

1:22:00way things are going, we're going to

1:22:01bankrupt the city because the demands

1:22:03are there. the the salaries continue to

1:22:06increase at rates that we can't control

1:22:09because everything uh everybody is out

1:22:12there looking for what's best for me me

1:22:15and [snorts] we don't have the resources

1:22:17to cover that. And if we continue to go

1:22:19the way we're going without making those

1:22:22tough calls, we will bankrupt the city.

1:22:25You know, it might not, again, it might

1:22:26not happen during my stay as mayor, but

1:22:29it will happen the way we're going

1:22:31because we keep finding these things

1:22:32out, you know, three, four, five million

1:22:35dollars here and there of holes that

1:22:36we've got to plug with resources that we

1:22:38do not possess and we're going to

1:22:40continue to do this. um because it's

1:22:43been done you know but my hope is that

1:22:46you know as you as you mentioned you

1:22:48know to basically and I think every

1:22:50single department head has heard that uh

1:22:53that we cannot continue to do business

1:22:56as usual because this is not business as

1:22:58as usual time. There's some real issues

1:23:00taking place in this city and if we're

1:23:02not careful we're going to run into what

1:23:04we ran into back in the '90s.

1:23:06>> And and Mr. Mayor, I I don't disagree

1:23:09with your rationale for some of the

1:23:11decisions that have been made. What I'm

1:23:14saying to you is this could happen on

1:23:16your watch. We don't know what fiscal

1:23:19year 2028 will be like. And you cannot

1:23:22convince me that we need a full-time

1:23:25administrative two position filled at

1:23:28Beimma when we have other departments

1:23:30that are desperately in need of

1:23:33administrative support. And in a perfect

1:23:36world, yes, immediately fill that junior

1:23:39building custodian position, but we're

1:23:42not in a perfect world. And that that is

1:23:44what worries me is hearing your

1:23:47explanation. And again, I say this

1:23:49respectfully.

1:23:50>> It it's as if there is no sense of

1:23:52urgency. Well, you know, we really

1:23:54should do this because we don't want

1:23:56someone here alone at night or we we

1:23:59think we should have someone over at

1:24:01Beimma because of X, Y, and Z. I mean, I

1:24:04can put in a public records request and

1:24:06say, "Tell me every shred of paperwork

1:24:09you've generated in the last month." And

1:24:11I I I respectfully I don't see that

1:24:15office as being that busy compared to

1:24:18other city offices. So, I'm going to

1:24:21back off a little bit. We'll see if that

1:24:23sense of urgency arises. Hopefully, Mr.

1:24:26Hondan will will be able to bring us to

1:24:30real realize that uh you know starting

1:24:33in January when you folks start the

1:24:35budget. It it's if you think you can't

1:24:38sleep now,

1:24:40you may be taking something to help you

1:24:42sleep.

1:24:42>> I don't even think it works

1:24:44>> the way it is. It's just awful. Uh

1:24:46>> you uh Mr. chairman,

1:24:48>> but I just I just wanted, you know, to

1:24:50finish on the note that we have received

1:24:52several applications for a permanent uh

1:24:55CFO and we're in the process of putting

1:24:58together a committee to look into these

1:25:00uh candidates uh with the help of Jay uh

1:25:03because that's a position that we need

1:25:04to kind of make sure that, you know,

1:25:06it's, you know, ironclad there to make

1:25:09sure that we're doing the the right

1:25:10thing and hiring the right person as

1:25:12well, too. Uh so you'll be hearing a

1:25:14little bit more of that.

1:25:17Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Counselors,

1:25:21>> we have a motion. Other questions?

1:25:22>> Motion to recommend favorably.

1:25:24>> Second.

1:25:25>> Motion's properly made and seconded to

1:25:27recommend favorably to the full city

1:25:28council. All in favor? All opposed?

1:25:30Motion passes.

1:25:34Item eight resolved, excuse me, to

1:25:38invite John Conan, interim chief

1:25:39financial officer and Juan Gonzalez,

1:25:41city auditor to appear at a meeting of

1:25:43the Brockton city council sitting as the

1:25:45finance committee to discuss how the non

1:25:47ordinance position director of economic

1:25:49development is being funded in the FY27

1:25:51city budget, how it has been paid since

1:25:53Jan January 1, 2026 and such other

1:25:56related topics as may be appropriate.

1:25:59invited interim CFO John Con andor

1:26:01designate. City auditor Juan Gonzalez

1:26:03andor designignate.

1:26:06>> Good evening, Mr. CFO. Good evening, Mr.

1:26:08Auditor.

1:26:17[clears throat]

1:26:17>> Uh, we'll start

1:26:20if you don't have anything. We'll start

1:26:22with the sponsor, Councilman Castro.

1:26:23>> Questions or

1:26:24>> Well, it seems like you're ready to say

1:26:26something, Mr. Condrin. So why don't you

1:26:28go ahead?

1:26:29>> Okay. So this is what I see on this

1:26:31particular issue. Uh your ordinances I

1:26:34take it do not have that title in them.

1:26:37And the I think the ordinance also says

1:26:40that unless the uh position is within

1:26:42the ordinance pay structure and being

1:26:44paid at that rate or is within a union

1:26:48then that's those are the rates of which

1:26:51you're allowed to pay. There's also a

1:26:53provision in the uh in the court cases

1:26:56that say mayor staff are subject to the

1:26:58mayor's discretion as to what he pays

1:27:00and what he titles them subject to

1:27:02appropriation. So there we have the

1:27:05alternatives. I think in the case of

1:27:07this particular position you have a

1:27:09mayor's preference or directive to pay

1:27:11this person and I think he feels that

1:27:13this person is providing benefit to the

1:27:15city. He the appropriation exists and

1:27:18the person is working. So in order to

1:27:20avoid a wage claim, we continue to pay

1:27:23it. At some point during this fiscal

1:27:25year with the present appropriation and

1:27:28the salaries that are being paid out of

1:27:30that budget, there's going to be a

1:27:32collision between the available funds

1:27:34and the payment of the salaries and the

1:27:36decision will have to be made and I

1:27:38guess the mayor will be the person to

1:27:39make it at that time. You know, that's

1:27:41how I see it and I know the councils may

1:27:43have a separate a separate uh case on

1:27:45this, but that position is being paid

1:27:47basically at the mayor's mayor's request

1:27:50or discretion.

1:27:52>> So, Mr. Condan, you're saying that this

1:27:53position is being paid from the mayor's

1:27:56budget?

1:27:56>> No, no, it's being paid from the

1:27:57planning department's budget at his

1:27:59direction. He's hired the individuals in

1:28:01that office and he wants them to

1:28:02continue to work at the moment. I don't

1:28:04know what his plans are to resolve it

1:28:06because the current situation cannot go

1:28:10for the full fiscal year without

1:28:12additional monies provided to that

1:28:13department because the two positions are

1:28:16being paid at a rate which is greater

1:28:18than the budget is available for the

1:28:20full year.

1:28:20>> That's right. That's right. So it it is

1:28:24allowed to remain

1:28:26until such time as it runs out of money.

1:28:29>> Yeah. Unless unless somebody is

1:28:31determined to lay off somebody and and

1:28:33and terminate their employment, as long

1:28:35as they're working at the mayor's

1:28:37direction, we have to play pay them or

1:28:38else we'll get a wage claim.

1:28:41>> I'm really concerned about money, as we

1:28:44all are tonight. Wasn't that our theme?

1:28:46And it just seems to me that um that the

1:28:51purpose of this position is necessary,

1:28:54but we're we're perhaps not going about

1:28:56it as we do other positions.

1:28:59and and I would like to see this change.

1:29:03I would like to see it legitimate. I

1:29:05hope that we can afford it. But I also

1:29:08know that by proceeding in this way, um

1:29:12we're not hiring more staff for the

1:29:14planning office and a city of this size

1:29:17certainly needs more planning staff and

1:29:20I'm just everything looks ary and it's a

1:29:24real concern. Yeah, I understand your

1:29:26concern, counselor, and basically all

1:29:28I'm saying is this. This is what I

1:29:29discover as I've arrived here. Uh I look

1:29:32at the two positions. I think two

1:29:34positions are needed. I think we need a

1:29:35planning director. I think we probably

1:29:37need a director of economic development,

1:29:39especially with the need for additional

1:29:41business revenue. Um and I also

1:29:43understand that the council sets the

1:29:45ordinances and the ordinance is not now

1:29:48being complied with. I understand that

1:29:50too. So the resolution is I think for

1:29:53all of us to get together and bring a

1:29:55solution to you which will be

1:29:56satisfactory to the council and resolve

1:29:58the issue because this won't continue

1:30:01for much longer a few more months

1:30:02because the appropriation will run out

1:30:06then then the decision decision at that

1:30:08point will be forced right because

1:30:10there's no more money. Well, I think

1:30:11that's right, but and I also think what

1:30:14does it say about the community that

1:30:16someone is going out holding themsel out

1:30:18in a position that isn't ordinanced?

1:30:20>> It's just kind of in limbo and and uh

1:30:24that troubles me terribly.

1:30:29>> Juan, do you have anything to add?

1:30:32>> No, not really. I share the same um you

1:30:34know, concerns and everything that uh

1:30:36Jay said about this

1:30:41Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1:30:43>> Thank you, councelor.

1:30:45Councelor Farwell.

1:30:47>> All right. Let me let me be more direct

1:30:49because I uh

1:30:52having served as mayor, I I understand

1:30:55what you can and can't do. You can't

1:30:58just dream up a position.

1:31:01Call it what you want. no formal job

1:31:04description, assign a salary to it, and

1:31:07then say pay it out of the XYZ

1:31:11department. I mean, that's utter chaos.

1:31:14That's ridiculous. I mean, if if you

1:31:16subscribe to that philosophy,

1:31:19then any mayor could come into office

1:31:21and say, "Well, I want this. I want a

1:31:24deputy police chief in the police

1:31:26department. Well, I want this in the

1:31:28fire department. I want this in the

1:31:30DPW." The reason we have order and

1:31:33structure in city government is to track

1:31:36how positions are being paid, what their

1:31:39job duties and responsibilities are, and

1:31:42what will be their level of

1:31:43compensation. We didn't do that here.

1:31:46And what's even worse is that we

1:31:48discussed this openly

1:31:50during the budget hearings and the

1:31:53council voted to reduce the planning

1:31:56department budget by the salary which

1:31:59Mr. Claxon had attached to this position

1:32:02in the budget book. A non-existent

1:32:04position shouldn't have even been in the

1:32:06budget book, Mr. Condan. And and I mean,

1:32:08what are we doing to this city?

1:32:11>> I mean, we listen to you and we listen

1:32:13to others as as to where the physical

1:32:17constraints are, but yet we just allow a

1:32:20position to be created and paid and and

1:32:22no job description. And I listen, if

1:32:25this is the way the city is going to

1:32:26function, then I don't know who's going

1:32:29to save it.

1:32:31>> Well, you've still got the control of

1:32:32the appropriation. And I I'm and I

1:32:35didn't create this budget. I didn't

1:32:37create this dilemma. What I'm saying is

1:32:38give us a little bit of grace to solve

1:32:40it because I think we can. Uh but in the

1:32:42meantime, we're stuck with the situation

1:32:44as I described it. As long as that

1:32:46person is working, uh the incumbent is

1:32:49entitled to pay under the law. So, we

1:32:51don't want a wage claim. And so, until

1:32:54we've come to a a structure, as you

1:32:56called it, which I think I I understand

1:32:58that it's appropriate, the only control

1:33:00is the is it is the amount of funding

1:33:02through the appropriation. And I'd like

1:33:04to have a little bit of grace time to

1:33:05try to get this. We've had other things

1:33:09that have caught my attention. Until I

1:33:11saw this resolve, I really hadn't spent

1:33:12much time on this particular issue. Now,

1:33:14I see it. I think we can get it

1:33:16resolved, but I'm asking for a little

1:33:17bit of time to see if we can't get it

1:33:18done satisfactorily. Sounds like we're

1:33:20going to have to come back to the

1:33:21council in some fashion for

1:33:22>> Well, if if the resolution is to either

1:33:25create a position within a union or put

1:33:28[snorts] in an ordinance, let's reflect

1:33:30back on what we just talked about is I'm

1:33:32not sure we have the finances to have a

1:33:37director of planning and a director of

1:33:39economic development. Right now, I think

1:33:41there are so many competing demands on

1:33:44available revenues that we may not be

1:33:46able to do that. But um I I I disagree

1:33:50with you that this is legal. Frankly, if

1:33:53I were the city auditor,

1:33:55if I were sitting where Juan is, I

1:33:58wouldn't pay it. I'd say, "Wait a

1:34:00minute. I you you haven't justified to

1:34:02me that this money can be paid out of

1:34:04the city treasury legally for a position

1:34:07that's non-existent.

1:34:09The position doesn't exist. You can say

1:34:12the person is there. You can say the

1:34:14person is working but it's never been

1:34:17created legally

1:34:19>> and with respect to the legal with

1:34:21respect to the ordinance of the union's

1:34:22contracts. That's that's true. It

1:34:24doesn't exist in either place union or

1:34:26or ordinance. However, an appropriation

1:34:28exists. The person is working. So I

1:34:30think the better solution in the

1:34:31meantime is not to engender a wage claim

1:34:34which might have additional cost to the

1:34:35city. It's to get it resolved so that

1:34:38the wage claim doesn't arise. And I

1:34:40haven't said what the solution is. You

1:34:41know, I don't know what that solution

1:34:42is. the the mayor is going to have to be

1:34:44the determining factor there.

1:34:46>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

1:34:47>> Thank you, councelor. Councelor Charell.

1:34:51>> Um, thank you, gentlemen. So, in in

1:34:55regards to the the the

1:34:58wages of set person. I I know we I know

1:35:03we're not paying someone in the bar

1:35:05department, which used to be a

1:35:07department that was funded by um the

1:35:09city. I know that there's a planner

1:35:12position that is essentially so what

1:35:15you're saying is that there's money in

1:35:17the department to pay set employee. It

1:35:20doesn't really matter what their title

1:35:21really is.

1:35:22>> No, I'm not saying that. I don't think

1:35:24that's the case. I think it does matter

1:35:26what the title is. I think it does

1:35:27matter that we comply with the

1:35:29ordinances and that we either create a

1:35:31position which is in the union or is in

1:35:33the ordinance pay structure. and we need

1:35:35to do it within a within a appropriation

1:35:38level which is there to support it.

1:35:40That's what I'm saying. What I'm saying

1:35:41is that that's not the case. Now, in the

1:35:44meantime, the person is getting paid a

1:35:45salary at a salary that was set by the

1:35:48city's chief executive and chief

1:35:49financial officer at the time is working

1:35:52and is therefore entitled to pay. So,

1:35:55councelor Farwell's point is it's not an

1:35:57ordinance or union position. You

1:35:58shouldn't be paid. My thought is if we

1:36:01did that, we'd probably catch more

1:36:03expense because of a wage claim. Yeah.

1:36:06>> Than otherwise. So the solution is to

1:36:08resolve it quickly. I think

1:36:09>> which which I agree with cuz I think the

1:36:12set person that is doing the job is

1:36:14actually doing a pretty good job. So how

1:36:16do we get to a resolution where set

1:36:20person has whatever ordinance or title

1:36:24what is timeline and um what does that

1:36:28look like on your part? so we can get

1:36:31them in front of the council so we can

1:36:33um um get this where it's not it's no

1:36:38longer an issue.

1:36:41>> Well, just just really came to my

1:36:43attention. Okay, I think we'll we'll try

1:36:45to work on that pretty quickly. This has

1:36:47not been at the top of the list of

1:36:48things to solve as you might understand,

1:36:50but it's

1:36:51>> it's

1:36:52it's troublesome to the council and I

1:36:54can see why that

1:36:56>> correct. No. And again, we the reason

1:36:58why I I voted on actually reducing the

1:37:02salary as well cuz we wanted it to be

1:37:03done the right way. I think the person

1:37:05in the role makes sense. They do the

1:37:08job. They've proven that they um can do

1:37:13such job. But again, I just want to see

1:37:17I just think the council wants to see it

1:37:18come through the way it's supposed to.

1:37:20Um so so set person is no longer in this

1:37:23limbo state where you know where where

1:37:27it wasn't created the the fiscally

1:37:31fiscal way that it was supposed to.

1:37:34>> So that uh uh that's it Mr. President.

1:37:37>> Thank you councelor Councel Green.

1:37:43>> Uh Mr. CFO um you said that um we

1:37:47[snorts] have a few more months

1:37:49remaining. um on the the funding for

1:37:52that uh uh particular position. Um do

1:37:56you know exactly how many more months of

1:38:00um funding we have available?

1:38:02>> Yeah, well into next year into the

1:38:04springtime at some point, March, April

1:38:06time frame, something like that. When I

1:38:07saw this, I we did a quick rough

1:38:10calculation. There's a vacant position

1:38:11in the office

1:38:14and that's the source of funding.

1:38:16the difference between the uh salary

1:38:19that's being paid in that and that

1:38:20vacant position is at some point that'll

1:38:22be exhausted.

1:38:23>> Okay. So March, April,

1:38:26>> yeah,

1:38:26>> of um of 28.

1:38:29>> So the appropriation

1:38:32difference isn't urgent. The thing

1:38:35that's urgent is the fact that the

1:38:37council says councelor says and he's

1:38:39correct this is not the correct way to

1:38:41do business because you don't have a

1:38:43title which is either ordinance or union

1:38:46and therefore you you're paying without

1:38:48a proper ordinance structure.

1:38:52>> Okay. All right.

1:38:54So we can anticipate um something before

1:38:57the council in terms of a resolution um

1:38:59prior to March, April, whenever the

1:39:02other funding runs out.

1:39:04>> Yes.

1:39:05>> To kind of um address that um issue. Um

1:39:09I'm I'm I'm wondering if um if the

1:39:13um the auditor and the um solicitor

1:39:19general

1:39:20um have um city um solicitor, I'm sorry.

1:39:24um if um if they've had an opportunity

1:39:26to kind of look a little more into um

1:39:30the um legality of the uh payments. Um I

1:39:34know the appropriation is there, but are

1:39:36there any kind of are there any nuances

1:39:40to the uh legality of it that we need to

1:39:44think about or we need to uh to

1:39:46consider?

1:39:47So, I can start with uh the auditor if

1:39:49you've if you've had an opportunity to

1:39:51kind of look into that and um I know the

1:39:54um um city um solicitor is not is not on

1:39:57the list of invitees, but um if if if

1:39:59Mr. Chair, you can indulge me and

1:40:01perhaps um get um a response from the u

1:40:05solicitor. That'll be great.

1:40:08>> Any objections to hearing from the

1:40:09solicitor?

1:40:11>> Seeing none, Mr. Solicitor, good

1:40:13evening.

1:40:15>> I'll just say something very quickly.

1:40:16Um, I've been a little bit caught off

1:40:19guard. As you guys know, I've been

1:40:20extremely busy the past couple months

1:40:22with turnover in my office and obviously

1:40:24closing the books and trying to get make

1:40:26sure that we have some

1:40:28at least a couple pennies on free cash.

1:40:30Um, I know that a counselor had brought

1:40:32this up to me. Um, I just wish that, and

1:40:36I brought this up before on school

1:40:37committee meetings, that the auditor

1:40:40should be more involved in um the

1:40:43budgetary process when the budget is

1:40:45being crafted because I don't know until

1:40:48I receive the budgetary packet as to

1:40:51what's in there, what positions are

1:40:53being funded, X, Y, and Z. I have before

1:40:57that no clue as to what's going on. and

1:40:59then these issues arise where we may

1:41:01have, you know, pay an individual that

1:41:03might not, you know, be eligible to be

1:41:05paid, etc., etc. Um, that's a process I

1:41:08feel like that definitely needs to be

1:41:10fixed.

1:41:13One comment on that.

1:41:16I wasn't here for the creations of these

1:41:18budgets. In the 30 years that I did the

1:41:20budgets, the assessors, the treasurer,

1:41:24the auditor, school finance, and my

1:41:27staff were all intimately involved with

1:41:30the creation of the budget from the

1:41:31bottom up. And that's the best way to do

1:41:33a budget. So, he should be involved.

1:41:37>> Agree. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Solicitor.

1:41:47>> [clears throat]

1:41:48>> Um well, not really prepared to speak on

1:41:52this matter, but I did have a brief

1:41:54conversation with Jay earlier today

1:41:56about this resolve and um I am in

1:42:00agreement with with what he said this

1:42:02evening that um I think the city would

1:42:05face um a wage complaint that it

1:42:09probably does not want to face, but that

1:42:12it's a fixable um you know, there is a

1:42:16solution. There's a fix to this to this

1:42:18matter. So, um by ordinance

1:42:22um is probably the I think the quickest

1:42:25way to resolve it.

1:42:27>> Okay.

1:42:28>> I am in agreement with him that I think

1:42:29a wage complaint would be forthcoming

1:42:32and um I don't think that's something

1:42:34that the city wants to face right now.

1:42:38>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And I do

1:42:40agree um we do want to avoid um that.

1:42:43Let me just end end on this. Um note and

1:42:45I know the mayor is here. Mayor, I'm not

1:42:47sure if you want to um

1:42:51I'm sorry, you're not on the the list of

1:42:53invitees, but

1:42:54>> any objections to the mayor?

1:42:56>> If there's no objection, I'd like to

1:42:57hear from the mayor on this.

1:42:58>> Mr. Mayor,

1:42:59>> thank you.

1:43:02>> Well, um first and foremost, uh there

1:43:04will be a solution to this problem

1:43:07probably within the next month or so.

1:43:08Okay. uh that will be resolved. But I

1:43:10just wanted to to touch a little bit

1:43:13about

1:43:14how this whole thing started. Well, we

1:43:17had a merger of the planning office and

1:43:21the BRRA, which is technically a quai

1:43:24agency

1:43:26that functions independently of the city

1:43:29itself.

1:43:30It's uh the appointments of the members

1:43:32of the board of the VRA are done by the

1:43:34council and the and the mayor. But but

1:43:37the BRA kind of functions on its own and

1:43:40there was a merger of the BRA and the

1:43:42planning office and that created some um

1:43:47some vacuums in the sense in terms of

1:43:50helping us. You know, we were just in

1:43:52here talking about the the millions of

1:43:55dollars that we have to generate. Um, I

1:43:58felt in January when I got here that we

1:44:01needed, we didn't have a planner, uh,

1:44:03but we needed to hire somebody to help

1:44:05us with development. And I believe that

1:44:07person that's actually in that position

1:44:10has done a very good job in terms of,

1:44:12[snorts] um,

1:44:14going after businesses that are out

1:44:16there to help us bring the businesses

1:44:18into the community. Um, I believe

1:44:21there's a place for the person and you

1:44:23will hear possibly within a month or I I

1:44:27would say before the end of the year of

1:44:29a resolution to this whole thing uh to

1:44:31deal with the positions that are in

1:44:33question

1:44:34>> [clears throat]

1:44:35>> uh because we have to do that. But at

1:44:36the same time, as far as any sort of

1:44:40violating here, violating there, we have

1:44:42people that were working in those

1:44:43offices that had nothing to do with the

1:44:46with the mayor or the city council

1:44:49because they work for the VRA, the

1:44:52agency that is tasked with uh the the

1:44:55redevelopment of this city. So, that's

1:44:58what technically what that person is

1:44:59supposed to be doing. But as far as the

1:45:01overall solution to this, like I said,

1:45:03you will hear uh within a month or so of

1:45:06of a resolution that I believe will be

1:45:09uh decent and well taken by everybody.

1:45:12Okay. Well, I look forward to that.

1:45:14Let's let's close the books on this.

1:45:16Let's let's do it right and let's let's

1:45:19bring this to um to a close. Um I joined

1:45:23with um councelor Charnell. um I do know

1:45:26this individual or I've had the

1:45:28opportunity to meet this individual who

1:45:30is um in this in this role and just kind

1:45:33of you know speaking as um as a manager

1:45:36kind of from leading people. Um I think

1:45:39as much as possible we should avoid

1:45:41having individuals in situations like

1:45:44this. Um yeah but counselor uh again

1:45:46what I this isn't somebody that was

1:45:49created in the clerk's office or in the

1:45:50treasur's office. This is through the

1:45:52development. Those funds that pay those

1:45:55individuals come through HUD and funding

1:45:58that's independently

1:46:00of the general funds of the city. So I

1:46:02do understand that. However, this issue

1:46:05came up during the uh the budget

1:46:09>> debates

1:46:11and now it's November. It's almost the

1:46:13end of the year.

1:46:15>> Yeah. But

1:46:16>> but see councelor the budget is one

1:46:19thing and the counselor I set where

1:46:22you're sitting and the council has the

1:46:25ability to cut the budget not cut

1:46:27positions but cut the budget. So it's up

1:46:30to the executive to basically run within

1:46:33those budgets that we're running

1:46:35whatever the needs are of the city to

1:46:37move it forward until those funds run

1:46:39out and then that executive has to come

1:46:42back to the council to ask for

1:46:43additional funding. So the council does

1:46:44not have the authority to basically cut

1:46:48positions. You can cut the overall.

1:46:50That's why if you look when we do the

1:46:52the budget, we count we cut dollars from

1:46:56a budget but not specific positions.

1:46:58>> So my concern and my question is not

1:47:01really on what's the authority of the uh

1:47:03the council. That's I'm I'm not arguing

1:47:05that. Um and I'm not arguing about what

1:47:08is in the purview of the executive the

1:47:11mayor. I'm not debating that um at all.

1:47:15Right. We are at a point, however,

1:47:18funding is running out. Something needs

1:47:20to happen. Uh something needs to get

1:47:22done. And all I'm simply saying is

1:47:24>> well, as I said, I professed in the

1:47:26beginning that within a month or so,

1:47:28within a month or so, you'll get that.

1:47:29So,

1:47:30>> yeah, sure. Okay.

1:47:31>> Time.

1:47:31>> Thank you. I appreciate that.

1:47:33>> Be nice.

1:47:37Any other any other uh counselors for

1:47:40this item? Is

1:47:41>> there a motion?

1:47:42>> Motion to recommend favorably back to

1:47:45the full city council.

1:47:46>> Second.

1:47:47>> Motion is re made and properly seconded.

1:47:49All in favor? All opposed? The motion

1:47:51passes. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you,

1:47:54Mr. Solicitor. Thank you, Mr. Auditor.

1:47:56Thank you, Mr. CFO. Counselors, any

1:47:59moments of personal privilege?

1:48:01I want to exercise my uh powers as

1:48:04president then to remind the folks at

1:48:07home that tomorrow is the election for

1:48:09statewide offices. Uh please go out and

1:48:12vote. Let your voice be heard. And we

1:48:15are adjourned.

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