2026-10-21 - Conservation Commission

All right, uh good evening. Welcome to the uh October 21st meeting of the Conservation Commission. This meeting is being recorded and streamed by Millbury Public Cable Access Television, available

live on public access channels Charter 191 and Verizon 26. This meeting is also available through Zoom or by phone. The Zoom calling ID number 899 845 0845, sorry, 4383. Um anyone participating

through Zoom or by phone should state their name or address when speaking. Um we will start with Mr. Hill leading us in the Pledge of Allegiance. >> [cough] >> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the

United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. >> Thank you. Before we get on our agenda this evening, we do

have a quick public service announcement from our town planner, Victor Pinak. Um the town of Millbury is happy to announce the the launch of Adopt-a-Storm Drain, a program aimed at protecting area

waters and reducing street flooding. Families, individuals, businesses, and other organizations are invited to adopt a storm drain by committing to keep it clear of leaves, trash, and other debris.

These simple act of sweeping up around a storm drain prevents pollution from entering our shared waterways and can help prevent street flooding. You can sign up to adopt-a-stormdrain.org, Adopt-a-

drain.org. Create an account with your name and address to claim your storm drain. You even get to give your storm drain a name. >> >> Special. Once Once you've signed up, you can track your cleanings

on Adopt-a-Drain dashboard. For more questions, call the planning department. So, go and adopt your drain, folks. >> Mr. Chairman, may I ask >> Yes. >> who sponsored it? Is it a state? Is it a local

group? Or is it the town? >> I do not know. I just read the script that is put in front of me, sir. Um Don, do you know anything about who's sponsoring this thing? >> it's uh state or regional

initiative. You know, the planning commission or something like that. >> Yeah. >> I actually adopted one. Um it looks like a lot of towns have them, so it's pretty cool. >> Oh, cool. What did you name

it? >> Um it's a TV show. We named it a bunch of after a bunch of characters. >> Awesome. >> >> Great. All right. Um so, Drainy McDrainface is there, and everything else will come along. We're going

to go to nine Bayberry Lane. Um this is continued from the previous meeting. Is anybody here to speak on this? >> Hello. Good evening. My name is Brian Hill. I'm a professional land surveyor with Land

Planning Incorporated. I'm here with the owners, John and Kate McGreavy. And I'm here with um Tom Tom Murphy, the the builder from Murphy Custom Home. Um they have a house on a RamsHorn Pond right

now. And what they're looking to do is they're looking to increase the square footage of the house by 50% with a 450 50 square foot addition on the back. Um and they're going to eliminate the deck

from the back of the house and build a new deck to the side. Um this will move the uh the structure will become uh 20 ft from the lake. The deck is 20 ft from the lake, whereas the deck was 30 ft from

the lake. Um there's uh sediment and erosion controls to protect the wetland during construction. There's a There's a stock pile material area um uphill from the wetland. There's a um an infiltration

system for the roof run off of the addition. Um and uh sediment erosion controls for the site in general. Um we're also adding one tree near the pond to help provide shading for the pond. >> And what

are you doing for infiltration? What is the >> There there's a Yeah, there's a chamber system that holds 2 in of roof run off from the um addition area. We provided a soil test as well. >> Right. >>

[clears throat and cough] >> Um Mr. Flynn, I know you did some research of some stuff on this one. >> Yeah, Mr. Chair, thank you. Um I provided a small-scale drawing that I colored in so that um the

most colorful part of the drawing should indicate to you the additional structures that they want to build. I wanted to just make it obvious because it can be sometimes difficult reading these plans

at that scale. >> I I should note there's there's no foundation proposed. Uh the plan is to build the addition on helical piles, helical screw posts. >> So initially um DEP's response, they were

looking for some kind of uh restoration of the uh buffer zone, you know, waterfront waterfront area to to mitigate things. Um and in my um a protected resources checklist that I passed along to

people, um I indicated that this might be a challenge to uh the waterfront as a living filter. Um question whether the water flow patterns and residence time was altered enough to be of a concern. Um

would the waterfront be able to assimilate increased pollutant loads. Uh these are just these are just triggers and comments that um I might ask the proponent's representative to address. Another one

was temperature of storm water altering um the waterfront. And uh also storm damage prevention, stabilization, and dissipation. So what they did, they came back with uh an alternate plan. Is that

correct? With the infiltration gallery? >> We added infiltration and we added a planting on the lake, too. >> Yeah, when was the tree? I missed the tree. >> Yeah, we uh it's on the other side near the

near the lake to give some shading to the lake. >> revised plan again? >> Yes. Yes. >> You didn't put it in your narrative. I missed it. >> Sorry about that. >> So uh so they made an effort to

mitigate storm water runoff by infiltrating it. There's a detailed that's not complete on because of the scale I had to reproduce it on. To infiltrate the storm water and they have a tree that they're

planting. >> Correct. >> And so uh it's up to the commission to decide if that if they feel that is sufficient to uh to mitigate the additional um storm water runoff from the new structures. Um I did

have a question. What are the materials for the new decks and patios? >> Are you using Trex decking? >> Yeah, we could use yeah, Trex and pressure treated. Like it's a pressure treated frame. >> So so

the deck is going to have spaces between the boards, so >> Yeah, about 3/8 inch. >> It's not going to have this big sheet runoff that's going to run it so it'll Okay, it'll percolate down through. Um

The new patio adds 220 square feet. Um and there is a gravel driveway there already that's not well indicated and so that surface isn't as pervious it would be if it were just grass. If it were lawn,

the the storm water would um percolate into that a little better than a gravel driveway. Um and they revised I had notes on the impervious calculations and I believe they revised those. >> We removed

that extra patio. >> Yeah. Yeah, so that that benefits the plan I believe. Um Yeah, so they So, if the commission has any plans, uh I think it's not an reasonable plan. Uh they did do some mitigation.

Uh the commission needs to decide if it's sufficient. >> I appreciate your cooperation with trying to handle all the weirdness that goes along with these. Does the commission have any other questions

at this time? Does anybody else wish to be heard on this in the meeting? Is there anything else that we are forgetting Mr. Flynn that I can think of that I'm not thinking of rather. >> Not if the

commission feels that DEP's concerns and the the the items highlighted on the eight protected resources if they think it's sufficient to um mitigate those characterizations I have no major issue. >>

Yeah, I think I had the only question I had was the same one that you noted here in the gravel drive and that's existing, correct? That's what's already there. So, it's not you know. >> I I I did

visit the site. >> Okay. >> The you know, cars park on what would otherwise be the one There's a parking area indicated up on the road, but that wasn't used when when I was there. It's very It's

pretty small. >> Okay. >> It's pretty small. So, this is very similar to situations we've come across on the other side of Ramsdell Pond, where we have very steep topography and the desire to do

significant clearing to put up a new house or in this circumstance, um you know, a a little bit of alteration uh to the landscaping to uh accommodate um uh new new construction and addition to the

house and and the new deck. >> All right. Um are you Are you Is there anything else you need from us at this point or are we good to >> No, just any I can answer any questions you might have. >> >>

All right, then I will entertain a motion to close this hearing. >> Make a motion to close the hearing. >> Is there a second? >> Seconded. >> All in favor? >> Aye. >> All right, that's unanimous and I

will entertain a motion to approve this notice this uh this project. >> I move to approve 9 Bear Brook Lane. >> Is there a second? >> Second. >> Any further discussion? All in favor? >> Aye. >> All

right, that's unanimous. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. Thanks, guys. >> Thank you. Thanks for being here. >> >> All right, next up on the agenda is 23 Maple

Street. This has also been continued from previous meeting and we do have somebody here for it. So, >> Good evening, Mr. Chair. Um Matt Marrow, Marrow Environmental Consulting. Um representing the the

Jaquish, who are present this evening, as well. Um so, I filed a notice of intent for a garage addition. This is a detached garage um within the um 200-ft riverfront. It's actually in the very outer

part of the outer riparian zone, and it's not even the entirety of the garage. It's actually half the garage. So, half the garage is in the zone, half the garage is out of the riverfront zone. Um in

reviewing the the the comments from um your professional staff and from DEP, um they had some uh concerns about the uh inventory that I originally submitted. I went through and re-revised all the

inventory, submitted a supplemental narrative. I haven't received any responses from DEP. The particular reviewer, um Kimberly Roth, usually if she sees something that's glaring in a response, she'll

let you know right away. Um haven't heard anything. Um So, essentially what we have is the particular garage that's going in here. Uh there's previous alteration on here that uh from a redevelopment

perspective, there's about 16.2% of the riverfront that's historically altered. Um if you look back through ortho photos, it's about the same amount of surface. What is on the lot that would be

considered degraded, um kind of shifts around from year to year. The current inventory is 16.2. The amount of garage that's in the outer part of the outer riparian zone is 394 sq ft. The area that

it's going on is at grade, like a pea stone graded pad. So, it's not grass. That garage is going on that pea stone graded area. So, there's no like grass being taken up, vegetation being taken up.

It's basically from degraded area, it's trade-off. So, it's just a different type of area from flat at grade pea stone to roof basically roof for the garage. Um so there's no increase. So DEP

basically cited a provision in the riverfront redevelopment reg that calls for um enhancement of the riverfront. You have to do something to enhance conditions post development. So what we're

proposing is if you look at the plans that I um left on your tables for you, I had printed those out this evening and figured it would be a lot nicer for a reference. So essentially we have a 90-ft um

section of their back graded at their backyard, um which is adjacent to the river. It's basically a steep drop to the Blackstone there. So essentially um a 70-ft strip, about 10-ft wide, 700 sq ft

with about 20 shrubs. I specified them in the narrative. They're basically wildlife berry producing shrubs. It's actually for the amount of square footage that we're adding or swapping in degraded

area, it's a two-to-one mitigation. So 700 for 394 is a little better than two-to-one. What what you have there, it's current condition. It's a very thinly wooded area. So it can go They have a fence

line. It can go just behind the fence line and just down by where the stone wall is shown in the plan. So I'm going to go by that what they call a flood wall is the nickname for it. So we can spread

it throughout that area. We can make a nice wide swath, basically 70 linear feet long of these shrubs. They'll be between three to five gallon, depending on what I can, you know, get available at the

nurseries. We may not be able to plant it this fall. We may be out of the growing season, but it will have to be planted first thing in the spring. You'd want two growing seasons to monitor it. I will

monitor it as a courtesy for the Jacquiths and submit updated reports. So we've got a two-to-one enhancement. Um it will be a nice scenic area. I'm going to recommend mostly blueberries because How

old are your kids? >> They're teenagers. >> They're teenagers. We have a couple of blueberry bushes. >> Okay. So, I mean we could do winter berries and stuff. Usually, if the couples have young kids,

I just do blueberries because >> Kids won't poison themselves. >> Yeah, exactly. >> >> So, my kids are old enough they won't eat the berries. >> >> Good. So, >> Famous last words, though. >> Yeah. >>

>> Any >> knowingly. >> They're teenagers. >> knowingly. >> Anyway, um that's about it. >> >> Um I you know, I wanted to thank Don for his review and pointing some things out. Um you know, Kim added

to it and I think we've addressed it adequately. >> Um I appreciate the detail both tonight and in the response that you gave. Um so, that was great. One question I did have was um you do reference a

few times the um the satellite imagery you were referring to for the to figure out the thing. The reporting in the documents didn't have those pictures with it. >> Right. And I do believe that Well, I

made reference to the years. They're readily available on MassMapper, which is what I used. So, anything from the state's MassMapper is what they came from. And I believe Don said he had downloaded a

few of the pictures. >> some of them. We we were able to see some of them. I wasn't sure if there was anything that we should be aware of as part of our deliberations for lack of better term, you

know. >> thing that I really see that stood out, like stuck out like a sore thumb, was the pool. And that was basically allowed as an exempt activity cuz it's greater than 50 ft from the edge of the

high water mark, which is what the small projects exemption has allowed. >> Okay. >> But, I did consider it in the degraded area calculation. >> Right. Right. Okay. >> It's kind of It's kind of a

conflicting like >> Yeah. >> provision. They give you exempt activities in riverfront, and then if you go to do an addition, they make you count it as degraded area. >> Right. >> And I asked them, I

said, "How could you do both?" They said, "Well, because we can." >> Yeah. Cuz we said so. >> Yeah. >> And that was fine. >> It's government. There we go. >> Basically, I think the point I'm trying to

is that regardless of what's on those pictures, every single condition on the site for degraded area as it exists now, okay, was not increased by any activity that they did. Um and everything is

accounted for contemporaneously now. So, what you have now is a baseline to go on for the future. >> Okay. >> So, that was all it's all tabulated in the supplemental filing and it's tabulated in the

current well photos. The past some of the past ortho photos you really can't make out much detail, but you know, you can see for years that the at-grade pea stone area has been there. Um a lot of it

was was done before my clients bought the property. Um I mean, you know, some of it actually might be sub- subject to statute of limitations provisions because it wasn't a fill violation and they've

owned the property for more than 3 years. So, however, regardless of that, we did tabulate the existing conditions now. >> Yeah. >> So, everything that was potentially there for any type of alteration

for degraded areas now accounted for. It wasn't like that with buildings that went up and additions and then they went down. What The house had nothing to do with that. >> Sure. Excellent. Thank you.

Yes. >> Is the asphalt the current asphalt driveway, is that going to be the exact same width as the new addition? >> The current asphalt driveway actually is out of the riverfront entirely, but yes,

it's not going to change. >> No, it's Is that the same width as the >> Yes. >> Yes. So, if you look, if I can come up >> Sure. >> So, if you look at the plan here, >> Yeah. I got Okay. >> these these

lines actually show where the the driveway is right now. >> Oh, so the driveway is wider than the new building. >> Yeah, it's going to be wider. >> That's good. Okay. >> Thank you. >> I I just

wondering if you're going to be adding more asphalt. That's what >> No. >> And just for the sake of anybody who might be watching at home, can you just hold it up and show what you were just showing

right there for us? The camera will get you. Just show us where you're pointing. >> Okay, so I am pointing right here. >> Turn to your left. There we go. Awesome. Thank you. >> Okay, so I'm pointing

basically right here. Um This is where the driveway is. This is where the This is where the garage is going. This line represents the 200 riverfront. This is out of the riverfront. This is into the

riverfront. >> Excellent. >> Next time I do a presentation, I'm going to bring my laptop. >> We'll do We'll do a green screen like a weatherman. It'll be perfect. So >> >> Um any other questions from

the commission at this point at this stage of the game? Um Mr. Flynn >> Um Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is one of the riverfront challenges we have, understanding the terminology and the dates. Um when

I look back um well, let me start with what's a degraded area is something that has to be learned. And when I started looking at uh aerial photographs, I found that most of the changes that you see on

site were made between 2007 2008 when the photograph is. When you see a lot of the hardscaping there that um according to the Rivers Protection Act uh definitions, degraded the riverfront area by

putting in a lot of hats hardscaping. Stone walkways um things that had some permeability, but which um weren't uh natural soil. So, the the DEP in the definitions indicate that uh if you have uh a

few inches of all decent loamy soil at the top of uh the top of the grade, that that is not degraded riverfront. And that's what I saw a lot of the changes would be back in 2001, there wasn't much.

And so, that's what made me question his presentation of um you know, the numbers he gave for altering. And he went back and he reviewed it, and I had some information here I was going to read, but

I'm not going to do that now. Uh well, let me just read one thing. A previously developed riverfront area contains areas degraded prior to August 1996. 1996 is the date we go back to. Now, that may

have been before they owned the property, and I'm not going to make a an issue about it, but that's the kind of thing that we're supposed to be looking for in trying to mitigate and and trying to

respond to it in the regulations. And I believe they did. I believe they did respond to it. He did it a recalculation, >> >> and I believe that's why he ended up proposing some restoration enhancement

of the riverfront area to offset what his clients may have purchased, and then the new work that they did, which is the pool deck. Um >> >> excuse me, and and now the rest of the work. So, I have no

issues at all really with the revised plans. Uh I just wanted the opportunity to discuss with the commission. It's It's going to be a little bit of a challenge to parse through these regulations and

then formulate a corrective action. And it takes some doing and I appreciate the Mr. Mr. Maro has has done that. >> >> Just for the record, my clients purchased the property in 2014. >> That was my

next question, so thank you. >> >> Um So yeah, I I going back to Mr. Flynn's point. Um As I had stated earlier, we we took and I agree with him on his definition of degraded areas. So I basically took

what is now because it's basically the same thing. You just if you look at the auto photos, you just think it's just kind of shuffled around a little bit, but it was always the same thing. Um no real

increase. It's just kind of moving the pieces a little bit. Um Everything you've got now gives you the baseline for now. So there'll be no ambiguity moving forward as to what happened previously.

You've got what's there now. The mitigation takes care of remediating and enhancing under the River Protection Act what's there now. >> >> Any other questions on the commission? >> No, those have been

answered. >> I will make a comment that the >> >> property looking at we're looking at here going back 50 75 years ago, that was the area in Middlebury that was the elite, right? Take that and a few

other streets and it's nice to see somebody coming young couples coming in and improving it getting back to maybe what it was, so good luck. >> Thank you. >> I would say that teenagers in the in the

town love it. They love that area of the town. My friend My kids have a lot of friends over. They they they love being in that area. >> It'd be nice to be over the river from the pool deck. It's

really nice. Good luck with your project. >> Thank you. >> Excellent. If there is nothing else, I will entertain a motion to close this hearing. >> I move to close the hearing. >> Is there a second?

>> Second. >> Any other discussion? All in favor? >> Aye. >> Aye. >> That's unanimous. And I will entertain a motion to approve this project. >> I make a motion to approve this project. >> Is there a

second? >> Second. >> Any further discussion? All in favor? >> Aye. >> Aye. >> That's unanimous. Thank you. >> Thank you guys very much. >> Again, appreciate the detail you gave us tonight. This was

wonderful. >> Very helpful. >> Honestly, very helpful. I appreciate the um I appreciate Don's >> Yeah. >> input. >> Yes, sir. >> We're lucky to have Don, too, but you know >> You know what? Hearing

closed, so you know I'm not saying this try to curry some favor. I was a chairman of my own commission like you was. >> Mhm. >> I was an agent for 35 years. I'm a consultant for 40 years. So, I can

tell you this, you got a good one. >> What town were >> them come and I've seen them go. >> There we go. >> What town were you >> Uh the the town I was commission chairman was Sterling. >> Okay. >>

I'm actually still like an associate member. They haven't I was an agent there for a while. The agent that's there now is young and I'm helping her with a professional development. That's why I stuck

around. But my the town I retired from full-time was Lunenburg. >> All right. >> I still do part-time consulting now. As a matter of fact, I'm I've been doing consulting work for the town of Dudley

since 2001. >> There we go. >> So. >> Excellent. >> We need a consultant someday, we know who to hire. >> There we go. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> >> All right, next on our agenda is 56

Davis Road. Um we have not heard anything new from them. >> You're welcome. >> And I assume the conservation office has not heard anything new from 56 Davis. >> I'm sorry. I I I was distracted. It was

the chair. I apologize. >> That's okay. I I know it's a very tight community, you conservation agents. It's >> >> Um the um nothing you've heard nothing new from 56 Davis, just for the record. >> Not

a peep. >> All right. We're going to move on for now then. Um next one on the agenda is Ramshorn Pond discussion. >> Before we move on with the commission, I'd like me to try to get some action? >>

Honestly, I was going to do that myself. I was going to talk to you afterward, but I will I will I will >> to the chair. >> I'll take care of that for you. Um so, Ramshorn Pond. >> Uh Ramshorn Pond,

um as you've probably got an inkling over uh over the uh because uh the pond did not return to its uh elevation that it normally is. There's been a lot of discussion and and wrangling and head

scratching and moaning and groaning over it. So, uh with the help of a resident, Matt Stenzel was able to find uh an engineer at the company that designed the dam and was part of the original design

team. And I jumped up and down saying, "Yay, yay, yay." because um that meant that maybe we could get uh an engineered plan that's defensible in front of uh scrutiny beyond what we might provide. >>

>> And so, we've been working with the engineer. Matt Stenzel agreed to pay to have uh an operation manual for the dam. And we have been going several rounds um looking at what uh is desirable and

what is firm and needs to be. And so, we've got several of them. I believe I posted one in the SharePoint. Uh I may have saved it for you. The one I put in front of you, the highlighted aspects are

the feedback I gave to this particular version. And if you if you go through it, you'll see some of my concerns. But the But the upshot is um at the last minute the pond association had a meeting and

um wanted to change the before then agreed upon maximum drawdown. We had agreed upon it for weeks at 625 ft. And we've been literally for months, that's what we've been talking about. And then they

decided to change it because they were concerned that they needed the additional room in order to physically do repairs to the wall and prevent ice from damaging the wall. Um I >> >> I pushed back,

basically. And I asked the engineer to go with the original plan. And all because he had put time into both scenarios, he has provided both of them to us. And I will post them. Uh would you rather

have me email you each? It's only two copies of a six-page document. Or you want me to put them in to share >> If you can email them to us, that'd be that'd be great. >> I'll email them to you. And it

goes through a basic drawdown scenario, has a few caveats, has a few exceptions, and has a few recommendations for minor adjustments to the gate at the dam to allow for minor variations in rain

events, snowmelt, and the like with a projected dates for accomplishing the drawdown and the refill based on certain assumptions. The assumptions are that you have an average base flow. Now, what's a

base flow? That's another topic. I asked them to put a short glossary in there so everybody has an understanding of what the terms are. So, we know what we're talking about, and we know how to

communicate. But base flow is the flow that normally comes into the pond from your normal storm events and from the additional watershed via springs, via streams. That's what the pond receives. I

think it's like 6 cubic feet per second. And so, that needs to be factored into when you're going to try and hold a level to the pond with a gate that moves up and down. You're going to get more

water, it's going to come up. >> [cough] >> And then it's go down. So, he's tried to create a document that will be transferable and teachable to somebody from the DPW uh so that they can accomplish

this task from year to year. An instrument that Mr. Stencil has also agreed to purchase is a digital um elevation meter that will be put in the gatehouse well. So, you can with a very high degree of

accuracy tell the pond level. And that will be available on a cell phone or laptop. So, you can get a pretty much right now update on the level of the pond, which we hope will serve to reduce trips

out to the pond to make any adjustments. You You're going to pretty much know the kind of action you're going to take before you even leave based on that. Or based on a forecast of what's going to

come. So, this may take a few years to develop the finesse and necessary to control it. There may be a few fits and starts. But, what I'm trying to help in development is a document that the

commission can support uh through a notice of intent and approve. And this will become the operational plan for that dam under a notice of intent in the same manner we do like Singletary. Um we may

need to add some conditions to it that will allow them to make minor adjustments to it. Um When do we do this? Nobody's pushing it. We could wait. We could even wait until we are Well, I'd like to

wait until we get to the drawdown, which is being conducted right now. Um it's probably a third of the way there. Um of that 625-ft elevation. And then we can physically see what that looks like. We

know about where it is, but then we can do our reconnaissance and do an evaluation. And if that needs to change and if it's reasonable to do that because to protect property but also minimize how much

water we need to recover which was the problem this year. We can try to find that sweet spot that's going to work in most circumstances. So, I'd like from the commission to you know, review this, you

know, give me your two cents. Give me your questions. I understand it. Um but this is the kind of thing I was used to doing for work. So, if if you don't understand it, it's important that you bring

that to my attention, because this is going to be a teaching manual for somebody else who doesn't have an understanding of hydrology and all this. He's going to be a technician, and he's going to go

out there and follow the recipe. This is what I do October 15th. I write it down in my logbook. Done for the day. >> Any questions for Mr. Flynn at this time? >> My only question is just uh

historically has there always been like an issue with Ram's Horn? I know folks that live there, so I know this summer it was like too low, it never got up. Is that always an issue, or is that just

this year, or something happened? >> That's just this year. Well, no, it's not just this year. But in most recent history, that's the issue. They claim they haven't had the issue since the dam was

built, and the dam's only about 10 12 years old. >> Something like that. >> Yeah. It's not It's not It's not very old. Um and you get an organization like this, and you get a third as many stories as

there are people contributing to the story. Everybody remembers a circumstance that's different, and everybody's measuring it by a criteria that's out in their backyard that is not reconcilable to

anything else around. And that was part of the problem. We don't have a gauge that somebody can look at and definitively say that elevation is uh So we're trying to iron iron all this out and have

that not happen again if possible. >> So right now does does this happen at all right now? But there's just no procedure for it. Like the gatehouse everything like >> It was kind of a seat of seat of

the pants procedure that may have been handed down when the dam was originally turned over to the town. >> Okay, so like the DPW would go out and do that. >> And I think something got lost in the

transfer and I particularly this transfer because we had a change in DPW director. And we had a change in foreman. The person who did and oversaw the other dam controls for the town. He was an

experienced guy. And I don't know what happened. But it appears that the drawdown was way over what it should have been. And the gate was closed later than it should have been. And so this is a

partial remedy for that and puts everybody on notice with responsibility. The responsibility of the Ramsdell Pond Association will be to provide input to the DPW. And I advocated people track the

weather. What precipitation have we had in the past 3 months? That affects the groundwater aquifer, as you well know. How much water is in the ground? Is it going to be that 6 cubic foot feet per

second? That's the base flow. Is it going to be more? And what's coming up with the weather? And I'm what I'm trying to help engineers giving the DPW director a tool that he can use for decision-

making in collaboration with the pond association so they don't feel left out in the cold. But the decision I feel, and I've always felt, needs to be with a representative of the entity that owns the

dam, which is the town. The buck stops there. >> Mhm. >> He's going to He's going to get all the phone calls and whatnot. You know, I mean, town manager may, too, but that's just life uh for a town

manager. Um so, I think this is workable. We just need to look at that drawdown. And remember, the further the drawdown, the further the recovery. And this is a small watershed. It does not give out a

lot of water. These people have a history of uh going after beavers in the watershed for holding back their water. Their water. >> Interesting. I used to work at an Army Corps dam, so I like all of

this. This is good. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Which dam? >> Uh Tully Lake and Birch Hill. >> Where? >> Tully Lake and Birch Hill over in Royalston and Athol. >> Yep. I've done a little work there. >>

Really? >> Yep. I worked on a couple Army Corps dams, too. I grew up playing in one. >> >> The one over in Auburn. >> Oh, wow. >> There's a There's a flood control dam in Auburn. Um kind of If you

know where the bowling alley is, it's only about like an eighth of a mile from there. Um So, there's an old old fact old machine shop there. And there's a flood control dam. And this mitigates water

to Webster Square. This was put in in the '50s. And there is a concrete ball that's over 50 ft across and over 20 ft deep. So, when you close the gate, it backs the water up into this this ball. It

goes 3,000 ft under Pakachoag Hill and comes out um just above the trailer parks in Auburn on Route 20. >> Wow. >> So, when you drive over Route 20 from um the McDonald's going towards Auburn, you're

going to go over a bridge and you're going to see a waterway under you. That is the outfall and it goes all the way through Millbury to the Blackstone River. Goes under Greenwood Street. >> Wow. >> It

goes by the trailer park and under a couple of the roads, by Greenwood Street, and it empties out near Lynch Paving. >> That's pretty cool. >> It's It's It's quite We used to walk through the tunnel.

We used to rope down We would repel down the pole. People would take their bikes. We'd walk through it. It It is is straight as a shotgun barrel. You can walk all the way through this and you see a

little tiny light down the other end. It's Who would want to walk through it? >> Hm. And that's where the clown lives. >> >> All right. Um so we're going on the new business now, I think. Instead of

old dams, we'll go new business. >> Sorry. >> Um no, no, no. That was actually really entertaining. I really would love to talk to you more about dams at some other time. Um the easement for the NEP

line, Colton Road. There's no DEP number for this yet. I think we talked about it really quick at the last meeting that we're just anticipating this for a right-of-way thing. Mr. Flynn, any updates?

>> It's not going to be a filing. This is a negotiation. Okay? So, my understanding is that um where the power lines traverse in the vicinity of the um the transfer station, it heads up the hill

towards uh Colton Road conservation area. It is We own the land. You guys are responsible for that conservation land. And they found that the easement is not wide enough to meet the criteria they need

to maintain to to adequately support um uh what is it? Reliability. They need to prune the trees occasionally to keep it from there. Well, they don't own part of the land. So, they're looking for a

solution. They're looking for this commission to grant them some kind of right-of-way some kind of access so they can achieve what they need to do on conservation land. Um so, I will forward drawings

now that I've introduced it. Um >> >> It's not a lot of land, but it's something has to be looked at. I don't know how big a deal you feel it is. I won't prejudice it. Um maybe we could ask for

something in return. I have something in mind just as a little bit of a trade-off. Um but maybe you all have something in mind for it. Questions? >> Um so, the access that they're looking for, are

they looking for it just for the duration of the build cycle or are they looking for a permanent one for long-term maintenance? >> periodic maintenance like like, you know, actually can probably tell

you they do all the time. >> So, this would this would be >> This would be every few years they would be looking at it and then they would hire somebody to come through and do X amount of maintenance.

>> And so, this it seems like this would make the benefit is this that they don't have to come to back to us every time they want to go through it, but it would also mean that we have to figure out

what we expect from them since they're going to have this on land. >> Exactly. >> What are they widening? Just the entrance or the whole corridor? The entrance >> I believe it's one side. I believe

it's one side. I I think it's where where the right-of-way turns. >> Yep. >> Um I think it's a corner. And it's not a It's I don't think it's a whole >> see I'm looking at it on the map. It looks like

it gets smaller. What's that? I look I'm looking at it on the map. You can see it does get a little smaller. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I need that. So, it wouldn't be a you know, it would it would be an

occasional circumstance. You know, we could require them to make sure they don't always remove all the all the brush. They used to sometimes just cast it in the side as long as not is not in their

way. That's part of their um um climate change thing. Instead of taking the wood and chipping it up and or burning it, they let it gradually dissipate so they don't create a a lot of carbon dioxide

from the activity. Uh so, the commission might want to you know, we don't want you to leave any debris. You know, we put conditions on it like that. If you were to read >> [gasps] >> their right-of-

way agreements with where they go, you'd be like, "Why would I buy that property?" >> >> Because I can walk under it, you know, and I can drive under it, but I can't do much else under it without a

bunch of permission and a lot of a lot of uh limitations. >> So, you can share with us some of the >> I will >> documents and we can >> share with those. >> Okay. >> I haven't because I like to kind

of look at it first so I know how to discuss it with you. >> No, that all makes sense. That all tracks. >> I can point a couple things out when I send it out that might make it um >> little easier >>

or something that's not shown that I'm going to tell you I'm asking for or something like that. >> So, I know that one of the things we talked about I don't know if it was last time or the time before

when we were first getting a look at the project was, you know, replacements in or, you know, um what's the phrase? Or, you know, we're taking this much out, we're going to put this much in somewhere

else. >> Mhm. >> Is there space in the zone we're working on for us to potentially ask them, if we're going to give you this right of way, could you restore, renovate, improve another area along the

corridor? >> Give us more. Maybe. Maybe. Um That That's part of a relatively large conservation area for this town. Um And then, yeah, there there may be something. I mean, they National Grid, they

have been pretty good about helping with restoration efforts by donating trees. I mean, they have not been a bad neighbor in in any respect really other than, you know, it's the work they do is heavy

duty work. It's just is. It's just And they need to to make criteria and it's not always pretty. Um But, they've been reasonably good to deal with. They've been pretty responsive when need be. The

difficulty, as with any utility is maintaining the right contact base so you know who to talk to for what kind of circumstance can be a little bit of a challenge. But I was just reminded I have an

inside guy. Cuz he asked me for a favor. And now I remember. >> >> Now I knew who to call if I need some some inside research. >> Well, before we put ourselves in any sort of weird situation, anything

else. >> >> All right, so we will we will await that and see what we can do. Um nothing new on trails committee. Mr. Vault not here tonight. We still need to get the clearance on that $4,600 we

discussed a few meetings ago. Um I may have dropped the ball on that so I apologize. In general, agent support Mr. Flynn. >> Uh Thank you Mr. Chair. Um I think we discussed um perhaps having this you

know 5 minutes at the beginning of the meeting because it becomes redundant. >> to talk about that before the meeting tonight. We didn't. So if you want to give the overview as to the stuff that we

haven't discussed, that'd be fine. >> Yeah, okay. Um I feel it's redundant so we may want to do it at the beginning. Um Ours as discussed several hours on Ransom Pond Dam. Um if I I you know there's

something in here I may have forgot to mention it. So you could read that. Um Brightside Street former Brock brothers I discussed um permitting for changes they want to do to the property with the

large stone dam on it. It's just uh further down Riverlin Street from um 100 Riverlin Street. It's the next property on the other side of Brightside. They want to put a new entryway and they want to

put a parking lot. Um so they will be coming with a a notice of intent for the new entryway because it goes over Dorothy Brook. >> >> And the the new parking lot, um they may come with an RDA for just

a gravel parking lot. Uh we'll see what they come up with. 142 Riverlin Street. I spent um about an hour with uh Larry uh Deal who's the owner of 142 Riverlin Street. This is the property, you may

recall, where he cut down about 40 trees. >> Mhm. >> And um he did clean up all the debris um most of the debris finally. And uh I've been asking him to come back to the table. I asked DEP to prod him

to get back in um touch with me and I went out there and I walked him around his property and coached him how to prune the re-sprouting trees. So a number of the hardwood trees that were felled were

putting up shoots. >> >> And we kind of came to an understanding that we could include those as part of his restoration effort. If he were to prune them back and allow one or two of the better shoots

to continue to grow, they have established root systems. Um I think it's better than planting all new trees. It's certainly less expensive. Something he was open to. He can spend a few hours doing

some landscaping. I also discussed with him the need to now remove trees of heaven because they have started to take over. Uh and this is particularly between the house and the riverfront. There's a

lot of them. So, I I hope that will go well. Um 10:14, I I did meet with uh Matt Dana Paray with Kathy Curlinda at the dam as part of that dam zone discussion. Uh that you see the site visits there. I

also stopped by Singletary Brook Dam to see how the drawdown was going a few times. And I discovered a place that I think they can put in um a gauge so that they can calculate the flow where it goes

under Harris Street. That culvert is a very uniform concrete structure which could be profiled and yield an engineering coefficient that would provide a very good estimate of the flow that's going

through that. So, that's what I anticipate happening there. Um you remember that Mr. Kowales kind of blew off any responsibility for uh gauging the drawdown rate in the flow. He said fish and wildlife

was going to take care of that. I don't know, we'll see. All right, plan reviews. 23 Maple Street, we spent time on that. Um And This is that land off of Colton Road. Request assistance on negotiating

access to maintain a right-of-way with with permission to publish trails on the New England power lines at Cleary Conservation. What I was trying to say there is that something we could kind of

negotiate with them is have National Grid allow the trails committee to complete their trails map to include the trails that go underneath the National Grid power lines on their right-of-way, which

apparently we're prohibited from doing for some reason I don't understand. That's just one idea I came up with as partial trade-off for this allowing them to go on the land. And We feel that a lot of

phone calls about Ramsdell Pond Dam and we got a lot of phone calls on the spotted lantern fly. >> Thank you very much. Um all right, um we did have some minutes in the drive. I believe they were for

the September 2nd um meeting. Have people who didn't review those. >> Was I at that one? Was I here yet? >> I believe you were. >> Yeah, I know. >> So, I will entertain a motion to accept those

minutes as written. >> I move to accept the minutes as written. >> Is there a second? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> Aye. >> Aye. >> Aye. >> All right. Is there any mail, Mr. Hill? >> None. >> Is

there anything else to come before the commission this evening? All right. Um >> Hold on. Just let's check the Thanksgiving meeting. Let's see. It's November. When's Thanksgiving? The 19th? >> Our

next meeting will be on the 4th, and then we have >> 4 18 >> Then we have the 18th, and Thanksgiving will be the 26th. >> Yep. The 26th or the 19th? Which one? >> it's the 26th. >> It's the 26th, 4th

November. >> Okay. >> 4th Thursday in November. >> All right. >> We're good. We're good. >> Um entertain a motion to adjourn. >> Motion to adjourn? >> Second. >> All in favor? >> Aye. >> Aye. >>

That's unanimous. Have a good night, everyone. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Yippee. >> Mhm.