2026-10-14 - Planning Commission

00:05[music]

00:09Good morning everyone and thank you

00:11planning commissioners and city staff

00:13for your participation today. My name is

00:15John Cton and I'm the chair of the

00:17Virginia Beach Planning Commission.

00:19Welcome to the October 14th informal

00:22session of the Virginia Beach Planning

00:24Commission. I call this meeting to

00:26order.

00:28got anything, Miss Caitlyn?

00:30>> Um, just one quick reminder, your

00:32November meeting is on the second

00:33Thursday due to Veterans Day, so don't

00:35show up here on Wednesday. We won't be

00:37here. Um, and that's all I have. We are

00:40going to go a little bit out of order

00:42today. We're going to start with the

00:43briefings and then we'll get to the

00:45agenda items. So, um, giving a data

00:48center briefing today. We have Jah

00:49Ferrer. He is the acting director of the

00:52Center for Economic and Policy Studies

00:54at the Welden Coop Cooper Center. Um,

00:56[laughter]

00:57a couple members of the planning staff

00:59along with our deputy city attorney, we

01:01did a attended our data center workshop

01:04training back over the summer, um, where

01:07Joel was one of the presenters and we

01:08found the information that he gave very

01:10helpful. So, we wanted to bring it back

01:12to you understanding the ongoing

01:14conversations there. Um, so with that,

01:27Thank you. Um good morning everyone.

01:30Thank you Mr. Chairman. Thank you uh

01:32members of the planning commission. It's

01:34really a pleasure to be here. Um so um

01:37it has been u a couple of months since

01:41uh I met some of your staff in this uh

01:44presentation that I did in Richmond. uh

01:46and since then we have been having a

01:48very productive conversation uh about

01:50how useful this presentation can be but

01:53I will be totally open to any other

01:56aspects and please feel free to stop me

01:59at any point if you have specific

02:00questions on specific topics what I'm

02:03going to bring here today is kind of an

02:06overview of what we have been uh

02:10learning uh because yes we are mostly

02:13learning uh at the Weldon Cooper Center

02:16for Public Service at the University of

02:18Virginia on our work with data centers.

02:21Just a little bit of context for those

02:24that don't know us. Uh we are the Weldon

02:27Cooper uh center, one of the oldest uh

02:30public service organizations within a

02:33university context in the country. Uh we

02:36have training programs. Uh we are

02:39nationally recognized by our applied

02:41research particularly also on the data

02:43center area. nonpartisan. Uh we try to

02:47provide reliable and timely services and

02:49data to everyone that comes to us. Um so

02:52we serve different kinds of uh policy

02:55makers and from elected officials,

02:58governments, community leaders, uh

03:00universities primarily in the

03:02Commonwealth of Virginia, but also uh

03:04nationally and even in certain cases

03:07internationally. We are currently

03:09tracking data center growth in the

03:11United States and doing plenty of

03:12studies all across the the nation on the

03:15impacts of data centers.

03:18We have uh a research unit that uh works

03:22mostly on energy aspects, economics,

03:25demographics and provides help doing

03:28surveys and local surveys. Uh we have a

03:30leadership development team uh that

03:33works from with local governments uh all

03:35across Virginia. I'll uh spend one

03:39minute in the end just mentioning this.

03:41Um and also we work with uh local

03:44governments in terms of community

03:46promoting community engagement uh and

03:49understanding

03:51like how can we um increase uh the

03:54economic well-being across the

03:55Commonwealth. Now going back to data

03:58centers [laughter]

04:00um our research started with Virginia.

04:03Uh the first work that we did was in

04:052019 for Jar uh many of you probably

04:09familiar with uh it's uh a body of the

04:13uh general assembly that basically uh

04:16the government can consult with JARC to

04:18understand what are the economic impacts

04:20of different incentives that uh are um

04:24that exist on the commonwealth. And in

04:262019 we did a study because at that

04:28point Virginia already had a tax

04:29incentive on data centers. Um and uh but

04:33but nobody paid attention like co in

04:362020 like data centers by then were

04:40there was some clustering in Virginia

04:41already but the way they were small we

04:44were not talking about and I'll I'll

04:46I'll bring that back in one minute. We

04:48were not talking about the dimension of

04:51data centers that we are seeing right

04:53now. So in 2024 we did this study that

04:56was considered one of the first ones

04:58nationwide uh again for JARK because

05:00these studies have to be done every five

05:02years again assessing the impacts of the

05:04tax incentives on data centers in

05:06Virginia [snorts] and our center

05:08particularly um was consulted to do the

05:11economic impact of data centers and the

05:14energy impact of data centers. So if you

05:16want that kind of summarizes my

05:18expertise although after that the

05:21requests have been so many that now we

05:23are doing research on water impacts and

05:25many other dimensions and so I can

05:27always bring you that dimension here. Uh

05:29although have in mind I'm I'm an

05:32economist so technical questions like

05:35you know what happens inside a machine

05:36or a computer rack within a data center

05:39I have no idea. [laughter] So uh I I

05:42mostly know what happens between the

05:44data center and the communities between

05:46the data center and the state

05:48legislators or the state regulation but

05:51not within a data center. Um we so we

05:54study mostly electricity demand water

05:56needs and we try to provide all the

05:58information that communities need uh to

06:01address this issue. We also have been

06:03doing studies on the great lakes a big

06:06concentration of data centers. Oregon

06:08the third state with more data centers.

06:10We were hired by a subcommittee at the

06:13state level to just do a study on

06:15Oregon. So we have been doing this all

06:17across the nation. First question for

06:21everyone that is not informed what is a

06:23data center like uh I feel that nowadays

06:26we most of us probably know what it is

06:29but just for us to understand uh what

06:32they do and why they are important. They

06:34support everyday services, banking,

06:36streaming, uh online shopping, cloud

06:40storage, your emails. I would say that

06:44uh I'm always very skep sk skeptical

06:46when people tell me because [snorts] I

06:48don't like data centers. I I don't use

06:50them. No, I think you are using them

06:52just by leaving right now. Um so they

06:56they are basically uh located around uh

07:00places with a lot of fiber networks. uh

07:04strong connection to um they have to

07:07have telecommunication support uh and

07:10the speed and the the reliability of the

07:13uh of the network the internet network

07:16matters a lot. [gasps] They have a lot

07:18of computing equipment inside it. So

07:20it's piles and piles. Actually we we had

07:22we visit one uh on the day that I met

07:26your staff. um and they have a lot of

07:28computing equipment racks that are piled

07:31in a very concentrated way and that's

07:34where many of the issues associated with

07:36data centers coming from. It's because

07:38of having that concentration that warms

07:40up the air that needs a lot of cooling

07:43and that's many of where the impacts

07:45coming from. So for supporting the

07:48infrastructure and those racks and

07:51billions and billions of computers that

07:53are inside each data center um they have

07:56to have also reliable electricity backup

07:59systems and that's again where many of

08:02the impact starts.

08:04There are different types of location

08:06okay and probably when I will show the

08:08map about Virginia where I show some

08:09data centers located here in Virginia

08:11Beach like you'll say we thought we

08:13didn't have one or I didn't see it. It's

08:15because there are different kinds of

08:17data centers. Retail collocation

08:20uh are the oldest ones that have been

08:22around and they are they are small

08:25facilities. You know many times with

08:27meeting rooms you don't even know it's a

08:29data center. People use it because they

08:31want to store or a certain company wants

08:33to store their files in a secure way

08:35where they have physical access to it or

08:37they have a supercomput to run some

08:39statistical modeling. you you you kind

08:41of don't even know or you know maybe you

08:44think it's just a business center that

08:47can be a data center those are very

08:49small and th those were the main data

08:52centers that were being built nationwide

08:54and in Virginia until 2019

08:57um and they are very connected with the

08:58local businesses so it's something that

09:01I would say is almost part of again of

09:04our daily life of our local firms but we

09:07clearly didn't u they were never a

09:09problem so when they do become a problem

09:12[snorts]

09:12when oh there is another small that is

09:15the telco ones that belong to

09:16telecommunication like Verizon AT&T they

09:20are all across the country very small

09:22you probably won't even notice retail

09:25and telco they are more or less the size

09:28of uh half of the size of a store in a

09:32mall like 50,000 I'll show you some

09:34numbers 50,000 square feet like not not

09:37more like this is can be even the

09:40largest ones, most of them 10,000, some

09:42of them even 5,000. So they are really

09:44small. Um so um many hospitals for

09:49example and many universities actually

09:51have them but they don't disclose them

09:53because it's just a facility a normal

09:54facility that has been there forever.

09:56The problem actually becomes when we

09:58start having uh old hypers scale and

10:01crypto mining data centers crypto

10:03mining. Why? Because these are huge

10:05facilities. So remember the the

10:07comparison with half size of a store on

10:10the mall on average old sale and hypers

10:12scale data centers have the size of

10:14seven football fields just to have it in

10:17perspective. Okay. Uh I'll put this in

10:19the square footage and try to be more

10:21accurate about it but just to have a

10:23perception and so the impacts and the

10:26land they occupy it's definitely much

10:29different than the smaller ones. So we

10:30cannot sometimes we measure data centers

10:33as a number numbers sometimes don't

10:36don't show the footprint because you

10:38know we are talking about different

10:39facilities.

10:41So for for for a local discussion and

10:44it's the first time that I'm I'm I'm

10:47going like most of my consulting has

10:49been around state legislation. So I'm

10:52giving a first step and I would love to

10:54learn with all of you what matters. But

10:56at the local level what I would think

10:58that would matter is like understanding

11:01the building and the campus size because

11:03that matters is not only again we are

11:05can speak about one data center but one

11:08data center can be very different than

11:09the other one. We are talking about

11:11different operating operating patterns.

11:13Okay. Some of them for example have

11:15meeting rooms. Some of them can attract

11:17more local customers. Others are totally

11:19disconnected from the local economic

11:22environment.

11:24um the way they work, the loads they

11:26have because this is important for

11:27example for the system, the kind of

11:29noise they are going to make, how that

11:31will impact residents that live nearby.

11:34Um the the electricity demand because

11:37that might require a substation and

11:40other transmission lines and you know

11:42some put some pressure on the electrical

11:44grid locally. The water and supporting

11:47equipment of course this has been a very

11:50controversial topic, right?

11:52um and I will be there in a moment but

11:55they have huge cooling needs and that's

11:57where the water consumption comes from

12:00and then land use and neighboring

12:01properties of course you know being huge

12:04facilities they have an impact on land

12:06use they compete for land that could be

12:08other used for other purposes uh they

12:11have for sure an impact that we actually

12:13still don't know what it is but on

12:15property prices um you know there there

12:19are visual impacts some people think

12:21they are ugly and that there should be

12:22regulation on how they look. Uh and

12:25definitely noise has been one of the

12:27things that have been has been

12:28mentioned. [gasps]

12:30So when thinking about locally I would

12:32say these are the the the the aspects

12:34that I've been referring here and there.

12:36Of course there are others. There are

12:38many other aspects let me tell you that

12:40are brought to the daylight by uh

12:44lobbyists from both sides you know that

12:48I find it quite difficult to find in my

12:50research and I just in many

12:53circumstances I'm in meetings and I say

12:55well I never heard of that and and so

12:58I'll try to stick to what it's known and

13:00that that we also have also know. So a

13:04little bit of the facility size. So

13:06again, telco were the telecommunication

13:08ones. Uh 50,000 square ft like retail

13:1260,000 you know um not that much power

13:16uh in terms of average. This is a

13:18national national numbers for you to uh

13:21based on a huge database that we have

13:23with all the data centers in the in the

13:25US. Uh, of course there is a minimum

13:28range and a maximum range that can uh

13:32make things tougher in terms of the

13:34classification, but mostly as you can

13:36see a huge difference on the average

13:38square footage. Uh, and with uh old

13:41scale and hypers scale being on average

13:44five, six times the size of the smaller

13:47ones that used to exist, but mostly

13:49hypers scale using 25 times the energy

13:52that the telco ones use. So again an

13:54impact on the energy side. [gasps]

13:57Where are data centers located in the

13:58US? We have 3,000 right now or at the

14:02end of 2025 sorry 3,000 operational data

14:06centers. More 1500 coming. But again

14:09these 1500 are much larger than the

14:123,000 or the average 3,000 that used to

14:15exist. Virginia where are we? 4539

14:19353 coming until 2030. Okay. So in our

14:24database we don't classify data centers

14:26as coming by because they there was a

14:29report on the media. These are data

14:31centers that already have agreements

14:34with the planning commissions with the

14:35city councils that already have gone

14:37through a a whole seing sighting

14:40process. And so like for you guys for

14:44for everyone here to understand we of

14:48all the data centers that we include as

14:49planned in the past only one or two

14:52nationally we have to drop because then

14:55something happened. So this we have

14:57pretty we are pretty confident that they

14:59are all going to be done unless the

15:02industry all shifts dramatically. But uh

15:05so we have 353

15:08in terms of Virginia again a clustering

15:10Nova area, Richmond, Meckllinmberg area.

15:13Um on the 43 39 operational listenings

15:18and the 353 future ones we see a pattern

15:22that is moving down towards I95 to

15:26Richmond and u south of Virginia. Um you

15:30you can ask me why this pattern. um

15:33mostly because the new data centers as

15:35they are getting bigger, they are

15:36looking more for rural areas uh than

15:39before, but they also want to be located

15:41to uh transportation infrastructure

15:45because they are very heavy on

15:47equipment. So they want to make sure

15:49that if there is a problem, they can fix

15:52it quickly. they have to be close to

15:54transmission lines because that's where

15:56they can get the substation done uh in

15:58record time and then being connected to

16:00the grid as fast as possible. Uh and uh

16:06and they are also looking more and more

16:08for water accessibility and that's

16:10becoming a little scarce around the Nova

16:12area and I could talk also a little bit

16:14about that. Uh not many not a lot

16:17happening in the Hampton Roads Virginia

16:19Beach area uh on this front. So also to

16:23uh have that in mind um why local

16:27planning matters uh because of course

16:30there is the aspect related with digital

16:32connections.

16:34In this uh we have seen um actually

16:40a positive impact particularly when data

16:42centers go to rural or seam or or

16:46peripheral uh urban areas that is

16:49sometimes they they bring with um the

16:51fiber optics or the network that didn't

16:53exist on those areas and a kind of this

16:56is something that if regulated can

16:58become a benefit from the communities

17:01but you know comes with issues again I

17:04was mentioning land and neighboring

17:06uses. You know, they are huge facilities

17:09uh that suddenly, you know, are put in

17:12the middle of of of land or or or

17:15residential areas or and they don't look

17:18good. At least I've never found anyone

17:20that said they were very pretty. So, uh

17:23just uh um electricity delivery. This is

17:27a particular aspect. uh the local

17:29utility can must be able to serve them

17:32and to make sure that doesn't conflict

17:34with other uh users and water and waste

17:37water. I would say this is definitely

17:39the big topic when it comes to local

17:41areas because it's the local impact

17:43where the local impact can be felt more.

17:46Um so um one of the things that we found

17:49very difficult is that until a few years

17:52ago

17:54like until two or three years ago

17:56Virginia had already like hundreds of

17:57data centers but they were kind of

18:01navigating uh under the regulations or

18:04there there weren't properly any

18:06regulations on data centers and there

18:08wasn't a public debate about data

18:09centers. So uh one thing that our work

18:14was kind of tough in the beginning is

18:16that for us to provide assistance and to

18:18provide recommendations we need data. We

18:21didn't have any data. Nobody had any

18:22data. Nobody had a clue because it was

18:24like for data centers their secret is

18:28the way they are done the way they run

18:30and that's what they want don't want to

18:31share. And also until until they start

18:36figuring out that backlash was reality

18:38and that they would have to be concerned

18:41about uh community engagement and

18:43working with communities, they would

18:45prefer to arrive into a certain

18:47community, sign MDAs with everyone and

18:49not disclose any of the impacts and

18:51anything that was happening there.

18:53[snorts] Let me tell you, let me tell

18:55you this is very important because I I

18:57don't want to have legal issues is that

19:00there are very different data center

19:02developers and from that perspective you

19:05have I found very different examples

19:07across the country where there are data

19:09centers that work very closely with

19:12communities that because they understand

19:13their impact they are willing to work

19:16with the planning commission with the

19:17city council meeting with constituents

19:20all the time. There are others that I

19:22would say have a more predatory behavior

19:25and try to not disclose and will go to

19:28the place where they have not where

19:29they'll try not to disclose anything and

19:31like to do things their own way um and

19:35being isolated of the rest of the

19:36society but I wouldn't say that I would

19:39say that that they are really uh it's a

19:43mixed bag also of different stakeholders

19:46okay just as a point of interest so so

19:48for us you know starting working with

19:50local um at the local level it was

19:53difficult because we didn't have the

19:55data. One thing that was very important

19:57from our jail study and I want to be

20:00really uh because it was there was until

20:04the jail study there was a bunch of

20:06studies um uh supported by the data

20:08center coalition or promoted by the data

20:11center coalition and they were very

20:13vague on the job creation side. Let's be

20:15clear because now I think there is a

20:17consensus about this. They mostly

20:19support jobs during construction and

20:22even that is they are not that many

20:24because many of them are not local. If

20:26you are thinking about local okay after

20:29the the data center is working they are

20:31a capital intensive infrastructure.

20:33Let's be clear their impact won't be on

20:37the employment level won't be on the

20:39quality of the jobs. They don't pay that

20:42that much above the local average.

20:46uh so this is something that both our

20:49studies for Jark great lakes and Oregon

20:53have shed some light and I think even

20:55now uh the conversation has moved

20:58towards a different uh a different so

21:01even on its peak they represented less

21:04than 2% of all the jobs in Virginia 3 or

21:074% of the jobs in the Nova area mostly

21:09related in construction when the

21:11construction is done they are they go

21:14away those jobs Okay. So, uh um

21:18permanent operations all the data

21:20centers in Virginia [snorts] uh actually

21:22according to our estimations they employ

21:254,000 people for 5,000 will in 2024 but

21:29now probably six 7,000 not more than

21:31that. So it's really a drop in the

21:34bucket of all the employment creation

21:36and this is something that we have to uh

21:38have in mind. [clears throat]

21:40Same same thing on the on the Great

21:42Lakes. 0.14%

21:45of all regional jobs are across the

21:47eight states in the Great Lakes. The

21:48same thing for Oregon by the way like uh

21:51Portland area 0.09%

21:53of the jobs. Of course, then that is

21:55Maro County in Oregon. I don't know how

21:58many of you are familiar with Oregon. I

21:59am now. Uh but

22:03um but but we have to understand that's

22:05where like the different position comes

22:06from. Maro County very rural areas

22:09didn't see an economic development for

22:11decades you know now they are an

22:13epicenter on data centers in the in the

22:16in the west coast uh data centers

22:19actually represent 20% of the employment

22:22so this is important right for a

22:24community and this aspect local taxes

22:28can be a major benefit okay Lenon County

22:30$1.2 2 billion a year right now on the

22:33revenues because of data centers. Okay.

22:36So uh um um so kind of almost 40% of the

22:41county's overall budget. So this is

22:44money they didn't have a couple of years

22:46ago. How do you translate this? You

22:48translate this in better parks, better

22:49schools, better roads, right? So, so you

22:53that that's definitely uh something that

22:56is important to acknowledge is like with

22:58these infrastructures

23:00definitely can come uh a lot of tax

23:04revenues at the local level. Now this

23:06can be shaped by tax rates, equipment

23:08evaluation, specific you know the way

23:11you frame this or different different

23:14agreements you know in the case of

23:16Oregon was building a library that

23:18didn't exist in that county uh building

23:21a school but again for this to happen

23:24transparency must be the key and that's

23:26what I always advocate like it's it's

23:28like it has to be clear uh it has to be

23:32a negotiation also right and it has to

23:34be transparent

23:35>> [snorts]

23:35>> Um so um so uh there will be local

23:40costs. I think at this point it's clear

23:42like they are not very pleasant

23:45buildings. They come with noise. They

23:47come with water issues. They also can

23:49bring tax revenues. What is my main

23:52concern in terms of local taxes? Let me

23:54just tell you is that right now we have

23:5795% of don't quote me here but we have a

24:00lot of economic development offices

24:03around the US trying to just attract

24:05data centers. So they get into a

24:08competition that Lden County was never

24:11included on. That is kind of a race to

24:13the bottom where you give away your

24:17potential tax revenues

24:19and the commitments that the data center

24:21has to has to have with the community.

24:24You give them away so that you think

24:26that you are increasing the

24:29opportunities and the chances for you to

24:32attract that data center compared with

24:33the county right next to you.

24:36This is what I say this as a researcher

24:39but I don't have any way how to how to

24:40solve this but this is what we have to

24:43what what we have to uh address and what

24:47we have to solve. There are certain

24:49counties in Virginia

24:51that while let's imagine a a specific

24:54data center would pay a approximately $9

24:58million in Lden County of tax revenues,

25:02there are counties in Virginia that have

25:04such a discount that that same data

25:06center would pay only 0.5

25:09million a year on data centers. Still,

25:11they don't attract them because they

25:13don't have the infrastructure.

25:15But this is the kind of thing that for

25:17me as a regional economist if if I just

25:20mention to you that the most important

25:22benefit of a data center is not job

25:24creation. It's not because they are

25:27pretty. It's not because they will you

25:29know increase the average wages. It's

25:32mostly local taxes. If that's what

25:34counties are giving away that's not

25:37good. Uh so this is kind of the the of

25:42course again it's a negotiation right?

25:44It will there are 20 data center

25:47developers across the US probably more

25:50uh that work for five 10 different

25:52companies. It's a negotiation. Uh you

25:55don't you probably want to keep the

25:57highest revenue

25:59but not making the project go away

26:01unless you decide that you don't want

26:03any data centers which like for me it's

26:05also a possible decision but then you

26:08have to under there are all these

26:10trade-offs that come into play. I I'm an

26:13economist so this is like where I where

26:15I I feel more comfortable with in terms

26:17of the power capacity they are huge in

26:20terms of energy consumption because of

26:22that they will use a lot of our

26:25electricity that is produced regionally

26:29um so uh u 100 megawatt facility can use

26:33530 gigawatts per year they run mostly

26:37right now because of all the

26:38computational uh aspect that is

26:40happening on data centers

26:42uh and and AI they are running close to

26:45100% of the capacity all of them you

26:47know and and so what we see is a huge

26:50impact on the Virginia grid uh for

26:53example we expect our grid our

26:56electricity demand to probably double

26:58until 2035 20 240 let me tell you after

27:01Jark we already updated these numbers or

27:04at least see how our numbers align with

27:05this we are above we are above the the

27:09the the maximum scenario So the double

27:12in 2040. So if you think about this 50%

27:16of all our electricity demand uh being

27:19used by data centers you know uh it's in

27:222040 so they are will be using more than

27:25all manufacturing all residentials like

27:28in in Virginia this we find the same not

27:32the same level but um but uh um yeah

27:37this is already with our numbers updated

27:39so in 2030 we'll probably get there in

27:42Virginia to 50% % of the electricity

27:44demand of the grieving on data centers

27:46but we will have this on Illinois this

27:48in Ohio also in Oregon why Illinois and

27:50Ohio are important and actually Ohio our

27:53estimations go up to 20% already uh it's

27:56because we are all part of PJM so we are

28:00all part of this grid that is where a

28:03huge pressure is being put into now from

28:06the local level uh what what why this

28:09matters because it will it will increase

28:12and we We'll have more discussions. We

28:14already having them how can we increase

28:16capacity and production and that will be

28:18have to be located somewhere probably in

28:20rural areas or around St. James River

28:23but that we will have definitely an

28:25impact in Virginia. More transmission

28:27lines, more substations and so our our

28:30electricity grid and planning will

28:32definitely become one of our topping

28:35concerns. Timing barriers

28:38you know why is this difficult to

28:39address? because a data center takes 18

28:41months to be built to 24 months. Uh a

28:45transmission line since the process that

28:47is planned to the process that is done

28:49takes on average right now in the US 8

28:51to 10 years. A nuclear power plant to be

28:53built takes 15 to 20 years. Uh even a

28:56natural gas power plant if we are

28:58thinking about it takes 7 to 10 years.

29:00Uh and there are now issues about how to

29:03get the material to get it done because

29:05of supply chains. But but but think

29:08about this we are having such an impact

29:10on as an economist for me is the impact

29:12on demand without the supply that can

29:13answer what does it mean increase in

29:15prices now I put myself on your shoes

29:19and the question I would make a person

29:21like me is like well yeah but if

29:23Virginia Beach doesn't have any data

29:24centers as we're part of Luminian and

29:27NOVA is having all these data centers

29:30are we safe from the impacts on the

29:32electricity for example in terms of

29:34rates and I would have to say no, you

29:36are not. You have you will suffer the

29:39electricity the increase and the

29:40pressure on electricity rates the same

29:42way that someone that lives in NOVA will

29:45because that's the way the electricity

29:46markets work. In [snorts] fact, people

29:48in Maryland that have you know 20% of

29:53the data centers that exist in Virginia

29:55or even less they will probably suffer

29:58the impacts on because they we all

30:00belong to the PJM area. So from the

30:02local perspective, if your concerns are

30:04electricity rates,

30:07you can you can definitely address this

30:09as a political statement. I'm not here

30:11to tell any of that, but but you are you

30:14probably your constituents will probably

30:16have the the same impact, not the

30:18infrastructure one, you know, seeing the

30:20transmission lines and having

30:21substations everywhere, but the impacts

30:23on electricity rates as everyone else in

30:26Virginia will. Um so this is goes back

30:29to

30:30financial risks that are involved with

30:33expanding the energy costs and also the

30:36the pressure on the rates needs

30:37legislation but that happens at the

30:39state level. Again a local level mostly

30:41it has to do with local approvity local

30:43approval utility connection trying to

30:46reduce the risks that are associated to

30:48the grid uh because of this uh pressure

30:52water the big topic

30:54cooling needs and and local demands. So

30:57let's let's be clear. All data centers

30:58use water. Even the ones that don't use

31:01why because the the ones that don't use

31:04they have what we call evaporative

31:06cooling. Uh and sorry they have what we

31:09call air cooling systems and because of

31:12that they use more energy. Energy

31:15production is the second after

31:17agriculture large uh consumption of

31:21water that exists. So the only thing is

31:24that we are displacing the water usage.

31:26It's not done locally by a data center

31:29but is being done somewhere else in the

31:31PJM area right and so sometimes it can

31:34be the river that is right next to us or

31:36again other data centers might might

31:38impact the river that is right next to

31:40us through the grid system. At the local

31:43level we definitely can distinguish

31:46different types. We have they have

31:48evaporative cooling. um you know uh that

31:52this implies a lot of local usage of

31:54water dry cooling uh lower direct water

31:57needs but again increases the

31:59electricity huge olive cooling uh at the

32:01server level uh that you know I'm not

32:05very familiar with this one but what we

32:07what we can tell you and we have uh

32:11an NDA also with uh some of utilities

32:15across Virginia where we are looking

32:16closely to the data center clearly there

32:19is there are three types of data

32:21centers. The ones that have summer peaks

32:24and that they rely on air cooling, but

32:27then they need water at one point

32:29because air when it's too warm outside

32:32becomes uh becomes uh inefficient and so

32:36they they they use water in specific

32:39months of the year. There are a couple

32:41of them that are have winter peaks

32:44because of the problem with humidity

32:46inside the data center and this is

32:48something that we didn't even see in the

32:50literature but we are kind of figuring

32:52out but they are a minority also and

32:54they don't use that much water and most

32:56of them have a constant use of water

32:59across the year with slightly peaks on

33:01the summer. Okay. So but definitely one

33:05thing that there is room for uh for a

33:09lot of local regulation is on the water

33:11usage of data centers and to be honest

33:13let me what I've heard from data center

33:15developers is that here not several

33:18years ago but right now they can be more

33:20flexible about okay several years ago

33:23they also because they didn't have to

33:25disclose anything or because everyone

33:27wanted data centers right and there

33:29wasn't a big uh public discussion about

33:31these things they were huge used

33:34consumers. And so we have this situation

33:36for example in in London County where um

33:40the top 20 facilities of a county that

33:43hasund and something almost 200

33:45facilities. The top 20 uses use more

33:48than 70% of the water. So it's it's not

33:52immediately that the data center will

33:55have a huge impact on your water system.

33:57It depends on the cooling. Now until a

34:02couple of years ago they didn't need to

34:04disclose anything. Utilities were like

34:06okay we have a new customer we don't

34:10even know after the first month until

34:12the first month cames how much water are

34:14they going to use. Well I think right

34:16now this is not something that um

34:20represents a good planning of a data

34:22center. we are aware of this aspect like

34:25I think it's a normal conversation that

34:26data centers are having [snorts] some of

34:29them are willing to have this

34:30conversation is about what will be the

34:32impact also what will be the impact on

34:34wastewater and again I know several

34:36examples where they actually work with

34:37the community

34:39to improve the water systems because

34:41they understand the impacts they were

34:43having I know other examples that this

34:44was a no-go in terms of the conversation

34:46and like oh you want to know how much

34:48water we use okay goodbye we are going

34:49to look for another place to locate a

34:51data center So it's again a mixed bag

34:55but what we have learned is that asking

34:57for transparency the facility

34:59information total expect uh uh annual

35:03totals of water consumption but also

35:05something that I think we got it wrong

35:07in the gel study is that we only looked

35:09at annual consumption and what we are

35:11seeing right now what matters is the

35:13peak because if it's a peak in the

35:15summer that means that the data center

35:17will compete for water during the moment

35:20in time where water is usually these

35:22cars in most of the areas in the US.

35:25Okay. Uh with very few exceptions. So we

35:28are in the we are in the north

35:31hemisphere. We have warm summers and

35:34that's where when data centers will

35:36compete. And so they might

35:39you know during the winter is fine but

35:42that might be a couple of weeks in the

35:44summer where things are already tight.

35:47they will become tighter with data

35:48centers and and more critical because

35:50they will pressure demand for this is

35:53something that I can share with you that

35:55for example this their their consumption

35:57increases up to six times

36:00you know depending on the temperature

36:02that is outside I'm sorry that is in

36:04Celsius is because I don't know

36:06[laughter]

36:07my my my brain still works on both words

36:10but like uh it means if the temperature

36:12outside is around 80 Fahrenheit you know

36:15you will have five times the consumption

36:17that you have for example on winter. Uh

36:20and so climate matters uh and this is

36:22something that we have to be um uh aware

36:25of. Just to finish wrapping up other

36:28things, noise. Okay, a lot of backlash

36:31and I I'm no expert on this. Uh I I've

36:34been in data centers that seem to be

36:36very quiet, but again I'm I wasn't

36:37leaving there at night to know if they

36:39were making a huge noise or not. But

36:41this is something that has to do with

36:43the construction. Again, I think it's

36:44part of a normal conversation.

36:47uh air emissions. Why? Because they have

36:49backup generators and they have backup

36:51generators that because they are

36:52critical facilities. Okay, this is a

36:55critical aspect for data centers. Data

36:57centers won't locate in places where you

36:59will put um constraints on uh their

37:03diesel generators on the back because

37:05they cannot be disconnected from the

37:07grid at all. Um

37:10that's that's a secret of their

37:11business. you know their their their

37:12clients won't rely on them 24 like

37:16actually 99.999%

37:18of the time like this is the definition

37:20of a critical facility so they will have

37:23to have backup generators now these are

37:25mostly diesel generators if you have

37:28tight air quality um regulations in your

37:32county for the safety of your

37:33constituents many of them won't locate

37:36there because if that doesn't allow us

37:38to render diesel generators like

37:41something like 2,00 uh or depends 1500

37:46hours per year that this will be a

37:48problem for them. Okay. But now for

37:51example I know a data center in Oregon

37:53that has battery storage as as as a

37:56backup generator. So again there are

37:58solutions. These are of course more

38:00expensive. Uh it might push a data

38:02center to leave the room. Uh but there's

38:05something that you have to have in mind.

38:07construction and land use again building

38:10scale traffic during construction they

38:12are very they build really quickly they

38:13put tons of water occurs in a short term

38:15of time that has local impacts upset

38:18local residents and well like but

38:20something to have in mind

38:22um drainage uh also an aspect water

38:25quality we are also looking again I'm

38:28not an expert on this cooling additives

38:30and aspects related with waste water

38:32they have to be also u put up front um

38:36but I would say that again it has to do

38:38with the campus that is being proposed

38:40and the behavior of the data center when

38:42it comes to u a moment where where they

38:45they they want to locate somewhere. Uh

38:48so for me it's always about transparency

38:50before a local approval. The amount of

38:52times that that I didn't have in the

38:54information that I felt I needed to know

38:56what and assess the impacts. Um so uh

39:00understand the the what the

39:01characteristics of the full campus and

39:03the develop the de development phases

39:05the power needs how they are going to be

39:07connected are they increasing the

39:08resilient of the infrastructure locally

39:11cooling design what is the water source

39:13what is the peak and where it's going to

39:15happen during and al what is the size of

39:18the peak also uh noise generators

39:21drainage of even storm waters these are

39:24huge facilities like Walmart with huge

39:26parking facilities sometimes like well

39:28uh where is the water runoffs going you

39:32know jobs what how many jobs are they

39:35creating you know couple of years ago

39:37they were promising thousands we are not

39:39seeing that anywhere and now they know

39:40we are not seeing that anywhere so but

39:43what are the tax the tax uh the tax

39:46terms between the data center and the

39:48locality and what are the public costs

39:50that that will be supported

39:53uh the need of public reporting after a

39:56facility opens because we want to make

39:58sure that we check you know that and

40:00that we are aware of if they are you

40:04know committed with the contract they

40:06sign with the community. Uh so um local

40:10policy can connect uh promises to

40:13performance. Uh so citing standards and

40:16try to create citing standards

40:19create incentives that are verifiable.

40:22Um uh make sure that they there are

40:25clear agreements on the infrastructure

40:26side uh and there is ongoing oversight.

40:30Uh and so think this also implies some

40:32costs you know for a city council. Let's

40:35are they worth it? uh um

40:39questions for for a local proposal that

40:42I would always do what exactly will be

40:44built what will be the communities what

40:47will the community provide and receive

40:49uh and make sure we have this very

40:51informed conversation about this what

40:53can the community verify over time um

40:56just one note like uh as part of the

40:59wilder center I'm more on the research

41:00side but we also have the Virginia

41:02Institute of Government um and um it has

41:06a local government consulting team that

41:09can actually help uh more on the lawyer

41:11side and the ordinance side. I'm not

41:13such an expert on that but um uh and uh

41:18if you decide to be a member

41:20organization then can provide you

41:21technical support uh on all these

41:24aspects related with the strategy and

41:27they are also looking at data centers

41:28right now. So thank you so much

41:36Commissioner

41:39um I'm very interested in this topic

41:42because I think that we're going to need

41:44especially with AI and emerging

41:46technology. So I'm trying to figure out

41:48not so much if but how and where and

41:50size and so forth. Um because I think

41:52we're going to see mass layoffs and

41:54business closures and so forth if we

41:56don't prepare to um figure out how we're

41:59going to adopt AI and all these sorts of

42:01things. So, I want to I want to get

42:02ahead of this. And in Virginia Beach

42:05specifically, I think of us as having um

42:09amazing resources in the sense we have

42:10the military, we've got government

42:12contractors here, we have so much

42:14retired military that's uh perfect for

42:18developing basically a tech corridor

42:21here. Um and and uh kind of partnering

42:25with uh Northern Virginia and so forth.

42:27I'm trying to figure out if we do go

42:30down the path of trying to um enhance

42:34our tech businesses here. What kind of

42:39data center, what size we would need to

42:42kind of how bad is this? I mean, are we

42:44talking hyper centers? Could we have

42:46multiple small ones? I mean, I have a

42:48series of questions, but um and broadly

42:51speaking, how bad would it be? I I know

42:53we're going to need them. I just don't

42:55know how big they have to be in order to

42:56do some of the things that we're going

42:58to need to think about doing.

43:00>> That's a great question and I I think we

43:04we need I usually separate both topics.

43:08Uh and the reason I separate both both

43:11topics is that there isn't a correlation

43:15on where the data centers are located

43:18and where AI is creating jobs.

43:21AI continues to create jobs in San

43:23Francisco and New York.

43:25They don't have data centers. New York

43:27now has a moratorium on data centers.

43:28California never had a tax incentive on

43:30data centers. In fact, in terms of

43:34density of data centers, California is

43:37as bad as Idaho and like they are one of

43:39the least states with data centers. So,

43:43you don't need to be physically located

43:45to a data center to have an AI job.

43:50So uh we are definitely speaking about

43:54two different job markets, two different

43:57areas of like one thing I know for many

44:00people it seems the same thing or or

44:03because data centers are the backbone of

44:05the technologies boom that we are

44:07looking at right now. But if your main

44:12concern is the impact of AI on the job

44:14market, if your main concern is how this

44:18will impact certain professions and

44:20skills that are right now, uh if your

44:23concern is that your clients learn to

44:25use more AI,

44:27you don't need to be located right next

44:29to a data center. This all goes to the

44:32grid and the grid, you know, and and the

44:35network spreads around everywhere.

44:38[snorts] Uh I don't even know if right

44:40now my phone is connected or using

44:42resources for a data center in Saudi

44:44Arabia. Honestly, I don't nobody can say

44:47that. What I want to have is fast

44:50internet and that my, you know, if I use

44:52AI, it's raining, it's running fast.

44:55[snorts] That I don't even know if that

44:56is a data center in Virginia or a data

44:58center in Texas. So

45:02I I tried to separate both things and

45:04there is a recent study also published

45:06by Arford uh last month that also says

45:09that if you delay the construction of a

45:13data center right now or even if you

45:15cancel the construction of one data

45:17center there are so many right now in

45:20the world and so many planned and also

45:21the ones that exist are becoming better

45:23that you are delaying the advancement of

45:25AI in like six minutes. So it's it's I I

45:30I would simply

45:33for the sake of uh uh uh uh and I' I'm

45:38doing also work on AI but I always try

45:42to you know put one at when I'm

45:44discussing data centers another at when

45:45I'm discussing AI because what we are

45:48seeing again on the job market it's

45:51completely separate locations patterns

45:54they have nothing to do with each other.

45:56Now if you want to locate data centers

45:58because you see there is a path on the

46:00manufacturing market on the supply

46:02chains that's a whole different

46:03conversation

46:05okay we with so many data centers being

46:07built there is definitely a room for

46:09thinking about where are all these

46:11components being manufactured and many

46:13of them are being manufactured overseas

46:17uh and and um and and we are seeing some

46:22you know specific examples of new

46:27products and commodities that are now

46:29being produced in the US because of the

46:31boom of the AI of the data centers that

46:33we are seeing. That's the path that I

46:36would go. But in terms of connecting AI

46:39and data centers, I would be a little

46:41more um I would say there is avenue to

46:44do two separate routes. Let me put it

46:46like this. I was asking because people

46:48were always telling me that proximity

46:51really mattered in terms of the speed

46:54and if we did want to do tech here to

46:56that degree that speed might be an

46:58issue. So that was the reason I asked

47:00that question. I'm glad that it's not as

47:02dramatic as I was originally told.

47:04>> Financial markets. Yes.

47:05>> Okay.

47:06>> That's why there was a clustering in New

47:07York which actually stopped because

47:09actually apparently I'm no expert in

47:11this but makes a difference that you are

47:14located like like 0.0 01 milliseconds

47:17can make a difference in the way your

47:19computer understand if they should buy

47:21or sell the stock. uh but what we are

47:24seeing right now the raise that we are

47:26seeing on AI particularly training new

47:29AI models inference like people asking

47:32questions and having the reply that can

47:34be done in a data center that is located

47:36actually in the other side of the world

47:38like 0.1 second more won't make any

47:41difference for any Amazon customer uh

47:44that is trying to buy uh uh so

47:49um

47:50>> excuse me excuse me

47:51>> oh I'm sorry

47:51>> we got about three other Oh, so sorry.

47:54>> I got a lot of questions. I I can talk

47:56to you later. [laughter]

47:58>> Commissioner Camp and then Commissioner

48:00M.

48:01>> I thank you very much for the

48:03presentation. Very informative.

48:04>> I I would ask that there be some um

48:08review for this region in Virginia Beach

48:13and Chesapeake in 1998 um connected to

48:16Lake Gaston for its water supply down in

48:20North Carolina. And what Lake Gaston is

48:23is a reservoir for Dominion Energy or

48:27its hydroelect electric facility there.

48:30And there's a large use of water there.

48:33And I would like to know about the

48:37effects of drawing water from Lake Gas

48:40and or putting facilities in its

48:42vicinity or

48:44what impacts generally um across our

48:47state and other states are having on um

48:49the draw of power which requires

48:52additional water to be drawn from places

48:54like Lake Gaston. I think that's

48:57important to understand. you know, DEQ

49:01um hands out uh permits um for um for

49:06water wells throughout the state. And

49:09there were communities

49:12that were denied permits for years

49:14because they could not draw sufficient

49:17supply of water. We've drained the

49:20aquafers of uh in large areas in our

49:23state of sufficient water. So what that

49:25meant was you couldn't build homes, you

49:29couldn't grow your city. If you don't

49:31have water, you can't continue to

49:34construct, you can't continue to

49:35develop.

49:37So

49:38water is a a critical uh resource for

49:42our region and we have to be

49:44particularly concerned uh with with

49:47heavy um users of water or as you said

49:50the displacement. you know, you're using

49:52power, so you're drawing water from

49:54these other sources. Lake Gaston, we

49:56draw 60 million gallons a day uh uh from

50:00Lake Gaston. It is in drought condition

50:03right now, you know. So, I'm not trying

50:06to create a a a perception that we're in

50:10danger. What I'm trying to do is to make

50:13sure that we're looking at that as an

50:15issue for our community because our

50:18growth and our economic development is

50:20clearly tied to having a sufficient

50:22water supply. So knowing and I obviously

50:26think we should be a member of your

50:28organization uh uh u but knowing how

50:31this would impact us is is truly a very

50:36important question. I don't are there is

50:38there a department within the uh excuse

50:41me is is there a a division within the

50:43department of environmental quality

50:45within in Virginia that deals with the

50:48usage of our state's water from these

50:51facilities is it DEEQ and so let me let

50:54me just answer your question

50:58and and I'm going to be uh up to my

51:01knowledge until a couple of months ago

51:04all the data centers in Virginia are

51:06connected to the municipality utilities.

51:09There is no direct groundwater.

51:13Uh I think at one point EQ might have

51:17had a couple of requests but they never

51:19move forward. So all of them are

51:23associate are are are connected with

51:27local utilities.

51:29So why are we seeing some clusters

51:31[snorts]

51:32in specific and I'm going to be very

51:34careful here so I don't get myself into

51:36trouble but why we are seeing some

51:39clusters around certain specific rural

51:42areas in the US I would say that at

51:44least on the south of the US if you make

51:48a map of where all textiles production

51:52used to be and where data centers are

51:56located you would see some correlation

51:58there and Why? Because these utilities

52:02still have capacity

52:05provided by

52:07DQS or the DQs of other states

52:11and then data centers come and they say

52:13we are we can help you pay the bills.

52:16You know you are going to be still

52:18within your capacity and we are going to

52:20help you pay the bills. to the other

52:23ones that have constraints right now.

52:26That's definitely an issue. But they are

52:28all going and again this might change as

52:31they become more rural. We are not

52:33seeing them becoming more rural and

52:36isolated specifically in Virginia but I

52:39would say as they move to states like

52:41Texas and others they might see more

52:42groundwater and they extracting their

52:45own water. We might see also that happen

52:46if they start having behind the meter

52:48facilities. For example, if they are

52:50producing their own natural gas, they

52:53have their own natural gas electricity

52:54production, then they will start

52:56probably using groundwater.

53:00But we are still not seeing that in

53:02Virginia. So every all the water that is

53:06right now uh providing data centers in

53:09Virginia goes through local

53:12municipalities and utilities. Now, your

53:15question about u the power, you got it

53:19right, Commissioner. Uh we we actually

53:23don't uh but we don't know where the

53:26energy is coming from. What we know is

53:28that North Carolina has far less data

53:30centers than than Virginia. So, it's not

53:33the existence of that facility that

53:35attracted data centers to to their

53:37surroundings. We also know that there

53:39are there might be now some data center

53:41developers that are studying the

53:43possibility of locating near a lake for

53:46example and having the water of the lake

53:48or the sea cooling their system. I'm

53:51originally from Portugal the largest

53:53data center is in the coastal area of

53:55Portugal and is uh cooled by seawater.

54:00They are still very expensive. they are

54:02still not the mainstream technology that

54:04we are seeing everywhere but but

54:07definitely there's something to be wor

54:09to be worried about but right now until

54:13uh as far as I know it's like I would

54:16say just to be on the safe side 99.9% of

54:20them are using water from the

54:21municipalities

54:22>> but our municipal public water is paying

54:24for their operation our infrastructure

54:27is running is used to support the data

54:30centers both by power and water.

54:33>> Mhm.

54:35Yeah. Yeah. Commissioner Camp,

54:39>> thank you for the briefing. I appreciate

54:41especially your nuance on demand, not

54:44just gross measures [snorts] and also on

54:47both the intake and the discharge of

54:50these various services. It's it's clear

54:53we need to be measuring a lot of things

54:55in order to fairly assess these types of

54:57candidate uses. Could you help me out on

55:01the life cycle of the equipment that is

55:03within a data center? It's [snorts] my

55:05understanding that it's typically about

55:07five years and like any business, some

55:10of those components will begin to be

55:12replaced. Some will last longer, but

55:14they're going to want to cut costs over

55:15time and be more efficient. Do you have

55:18the potential that the business you

55:21measured initially migrates into one

55:24producing different measures later as

55:27they swap out equipment within the data

55:30center?

55:33So again, I'm not that's where I'm not

55:38so familiar with. I'm also know that

55:40that's where like probably most of the

55:44secret of the data center relies. But

55:47let me tell you that I I think that what

55:49they are increasing is in terms of the

55:51computational capacity, not the energy.

55:55Um you know uh uh um I I would guess

56:00this is all very new also like one

56:03question that I even have is like

56:06how much a foot loose this industry is

56:08like they put a data center somewhere

56:10and for those that know a data center is

56:12like just for walls and a lot HVAC

56:16system and and computers that have to be

56:19as you said and well changed every five

56:21to eight years like are they going to

56:23have a tax exemption in another state or

56:25in another country and as I said you

56:27don't have to be located right next to a

56:29data center so for them to be you know

56:32uh estim like producing their

56:34computational um outputs so are they

56:38going to one day locate in other

56:40countries and we will see like uh you

56:42know especially with some of the

56:44backlash we are seeing I don't have

56:46answers to any questions I I I don't

56:48know any data center right now that has

56:51reduced its capacity that has closed

56:54It's a it's a growing business. Uh we we

56:58know a couple of real estate projects

57:00associated with data centers that might

57:02have delayed or shut down one year but

57:04the next year they they they

57:07are the man for it. So we we definitely

57:11uh are learning about these and we'll

57:13try to learn with the trends. But what

57:15we are seeing right now is that they are

57:18becoming better and increasing their

57:20efficiency by using the same energy

57:22doubling or tripling the computational

57:24skills capacity not exactly by extending

57:29within the infrastructure or the water

57:31they use. For example, on our data, I

57:35can tell you this and I'm just I I I run

57:38this model yesterday. So, you are the

57:39first person to know about this, but all

57:42the data centers that we have data for

57:44in Virginia at the water level, the

57:46water they used in the fifth year or

57:49sixth year of operation was the same

57:51water they were using in the first year

57:52of operation.

57:53>> Okay. So, that's very helpful. In our

57:56case, our city council adopted a package

57:58of incentives to attract data centers in

58:002017, and they're still on the books,

58:03including a lowered uh business property

58:05rate and a definition of what a data

58:07center is. It sounds from your briefing

58:11like obviously the [clears throat]

58:14the industry has changed and so

58:16revisiting that type of definition and

58:19potentially revisiting incentives that

58:21may have made sense in 2017 versus the

58:25market today may be something prudent to

58:26recommend as well.

58:28>> Yes.

58:29>> Okay. Very good. And then lastly, if I

58:32may, there are other businesses that

58:37create large computing demand.

58:40And one might say that their facilities

58:44are similar to some of these except for

58:47the fact that they are within a

58:48university or within some other type of

58:51of land use.

58:54If there are associated offices or

58:56laboratories or other type of uses,

58:59are those intense demand computing

59:04locations being considered here also or

59:07are you only looking at sort of the

59:09multic customer public carrier uh type

59:13of uses even though the privates might

59:15be similar?

59:17>> Yeah, we don't have information on the

59:18enterprise data centers. Um actually

59:21there are also some of them and since we

59:24are in Virginia Beach for example

59:25military

59:27uh my knowledge is that they are all

59:31much smaller than this hypers scale that

59:32we are speaking about. So there's

59:35definitely a segment of the market a

59:36market segment that is the hypers scale

59:40wholesale

59:41itch big tech companies and there is

59:44another one that is local customers like

59:46UVI has two two or three data centers

59:49the hospitals have data centers right

59:50now some libraries and even some

59:53counties that have to manage a public

59:55library system they have data centers

59:58those are small I have one right next to

1:00:00my house it uses as much energy as

1:00:045 hours old like so it's nothing right

1:00:07and and runs uh the library uh

1:00:11[laughter]

1:00:12uh information so uh there are

1:00:16definitely different uh now I I've heard

1:00:19about different models like for example

1:00:21I've heard about a company that is

1:00:22buying um

1:00:25old storage units and just locating

1:00:28elsewhere but those will be small data

1:00:30centers also um

1:00:34I I I'm definitely this is this is still

1:00:37not part of a trend that we are seeing.

1:00:39The number of small data centers in

1:00:41Virginia that were built in the last

1:00:44three or four years compared with the

1:00:47large ones I would say it's one for 10

1:00:5010 large ones for one smaller ones. So

1:00:53um as a regional economist I'm very

1:00:58I think one thing that we've been very

1:01:00careful is that we continue to allow

1:01:03those data centers that are kind of very

1:01:06related with our local economy with our

1:01:10with the businesses that we have here to

1:01:11continue to be built then we have to

1:01:14understand that the large ones have

1:01:15different impacts and will serve

1:01:16different types of customers. So,

1:01:21>> Commissioner Bch and then Commissioner

1:01:23Ber and then that's it. Okay, I got to

1:01:26move on. I'd like to thank you for the

1:01:30information that you've given us

1:01:31[clears throat] uh as well as staff for

1:01:34um continuing to provide us information

1:01:36as data centers are very fluid and and

1:01:39things change uh very quickly. it seems

1:01:42like with information that how the data

1:01:45centers run and and what type of data

1:01:47centers there are. Um I wanted to touch

1:01:50on one thing that Commissioner Skunover

1:01:52had had mentioned and and maybe to make

1:01:54a little clarification. And I believe

1:01:56that the the city's looking uh to to

1:02:02facilitate a way to uh bring our retired

1:02:06military community to be able to use

1:02:10their knowledge to create businesses

1:02:12that help support the military um

1:02:14privately uh whether it's just

1:02:17supporting the military in general or

1:02:19supporting military operations. And I

1:02:21think maybe what she was talking about

1:02:23the speed and the proximity might be a

1:02:25part of that where um supporting

1:02:28military operations from a private

1:02:31standpoint. Uh it is that is there a a

1:02:34correlation between the proximity um to

1:02:37that type of a a instantaneous data? Do

1:02:40they need to be close by?

1:02:45I

1:02:45>> I think location still matters. Uh

1:02:48that's

1:02:50in fact everyone that has studied

1:02:51historical trends of data centers come

1:02:53up to the conclusion that they locate in

1:02:55Len County and Northern Virginia because

1:02:59Pentagon closing to the federal. So I

1:03:02want I don't want to say that it doesn't

1:03:04matter. Uh

1:03:07the way I would put it it's like it

1:03:09matters less and less.

1:03:11>> Right. Okay. And then um I saw that you

1:03:15had forecasted for future data centers

1:03:18along with the energy demand uh that

1:03:21we're going to have. Did that take into

1:03:23account future energy production or

1:03:28>> future energy different types of energy

1:03:31that that could be done in the future?

1:03:34>> Great question. uh the the

1:03:39on the Jark study we classified both of

1:03:41the scenarios of growing on data centers

1:03:44as very unlikely because of constraint

1:03:46in the energy markets.

1:03:48uh so I would say that we have we taken

1:03:51that into account in the sense that we

1:03:53also said this has this huge problem has

1:03:55to be solved and we don't know exactly

1:03:57what how and there isn't an additional

1:03:59problem is that we are doing this

1:04:01forecast for Virginia and if in 2024 we

1:04:04did this forecast for Virginia and

1:04:06everyone was like oh Virginia is booming

1:04:08on data centers but now Ohio is booming

1:04:11on data centers Atlanta is booming on

1:04:13data centers in Georgia uh Illinois is

1:04:16booming on data centers Um and only very

1:04:19few states like New York hit a plateau

1:04:21and are not having more. Pennsylvania is

1:04:24now moving on data centers and so we are

1:04:27all part of PJM. So one of solutions for

1:04:30Virginia will be just import more energy

1:04:32from other states. But if the other

1:04:34states are also having data centers,

1:04:36they won't have energy for us to import.

1:04:38So I would say that this is like a very

1:04:41complex system that nobody still put it

1:04:44all together. Um I would say that

1:04:48definitely Dominion is thinking about

1:04:50building a new natural gas power plant.

1:04:52We have been seeing and we continue to

1:04:54see a raise in solar energy but we are

1:04:57not building at the speed that to

1:05:01support this energy demand. In fact,

1:05:02what we are seeing is that in many

1:05:04states like Ohio, West Virginia is that

1:05:06they are reopening or delaying the

1:05:09closure of some coal facilities just to

1:05:12continue to provide uh the energy that

1:05:15is now needed for these data centers. So

1:05:19I I think it's a very unlikely scenario

1:05:21that we won't have constraints on the

1:05:23energy side in a couple of years.

1:05:26>> You feel as though the conversation for

1:05:29future [clears throat] energy production

1:05:30[laughter] in

1:05:32in uh alternative energy uh is at the

1:05:37point in which it needs to be or do you

1:05:39think we need to have just as much of a

1:05:42focus on new energy production uh to go

1:05:46along with

1:05:48>> I I I I think we we have to take energy

1:05:51planning really seriously. I I won't go

1:05:54any

1:05:55>> focus there or not so much

1:05:57>> there is there is there is some things

1:05:59being done like we have like recently

1:06:02the the new energy plan uh announced by

1:06:05the spamburger administration we we are

1:06:07having things that are being done

1:06:10um I'm I I I think that the right the

1:06:14most important incentive right now and I

1:06:16have been in several energy conferences

1:06:19is that energy is going to become more

1:06:21expensive And so this is good for energy

1:06:24producers and developers, right? It it

1:06:27it will give opportunities to new ways

1:06:29to produce techn to produce energy for

1:06:31example. Uh at the same time, it it

1:06:35brings issues in terms of affordability

1:06:37like low-income households like energy

1:06:40is like 8% of their budget. So it's

1:06:44definitely something that that there are

1:06:46many moving pieces here. Uh and uh yeah,

1:06:51Commissioner Berado.

1:06:53>> Oh, thank you. [laughter]

1:06:55>> And thank you to Director Walsh and and

1:06:57Chair Cen for providing this really,

1:07:00really important briefing. So, um I

1:07:04appreciate that you're also on top of AI

1:07:07and as I understand it, AI is growing

1:07:10faster than data centers. It's growing

1:07:12faster than anything else. and the need

1:07:14for data storage is growing

1:07:16geometrically.

1:07:18As such in my mind the current model is

1:07:21completely unsustainable

1:07:24and we will be shifting to something

1:07:26else and when that happens I share some

1:07:28of the other comments what's going to

1:07:29happen with all these data centers that

1:07:31are around they will be obsolete. Can

1:07:34you shed any light on the future of data

1:07:38storage beyond the current model?

1:07:41So, one of the things that economists

1:07:43are really bad at is predicting uh

1:07:46crisis and because we just work with

1:07:48forecasts that you know are kind of make

1:07:51sense to us and when the crisis happens

1:07:53like we are usually the last people to

1:07:56admit.

1:07:57Uh I'm I'm going to be completely

1:08:00honest. I I share uh I share with you

1:08:03some of the concerns about the

1:08:04sustainability of this model. Again, the

1:08:06question on energy planning, right? like

1:08:09sure um I'm not so sure that AI as a

1:08:13technology is going to go away. Uh I

1:08:16think it's disruptive. Uh I think it

1:08:19makes us do things in a different way

1:08:21that we used to do in the past. Uh now I

1:08:25have a lot of concerns about the

1:08:27modeling and the way and the model and

1:08:29the way the system is been operating and

1:08:32like and I see some very concerning

1:08:35aspects. for example, energy is one of

1:08:37them. Um, we also track closely the job

1:08:41market. Uh, you know, for the first time

1:08:44in decades, professional services in

1:08:47Virginia are shrinking. Uh, it was one

1:08:50of our largest sectors and you know,

1:08:54consulting firms were moving here. we

1:08:56are hiring with these college uh uh

1:09:00graduates with and giving them great

1:09:02jobs and that stopped two or three years

1:09:05ago. Um and so uh we are still not at

1:09:10the phase where we we will see these

1:09:11amount layoffs

1:09:14but the job market is tough for for for

1:09:16new entry positions and for junior

1:09:18people and you know I I'm I work with

1:09:21students every day and I see how tough

1:09:23it is right now. uh and probably you

1:09:26also have heard this. So I have I could

1:09:29share some of your concerns but I want

1:09:31to make sure that that's not an area

1:09:33where I'm an expert as data center. So

1:09:35I'm just not probably the right person

1:09:37to tell you. I would tell you also that

1:09:40I won't be the the person that will tell

1:09:42you if there is a bubble right now in

1:09:44the market and if the stock market is

1:09:47red. I I don't I don't [snorts] um our

1:09:50economic models usually are pretty bad

1:09:52at forecasting those things.

1:09:54uh now I have concerns and I have

1:09:56concerns about the sustainability of

1:09:58this model also that's why for me

1:09:59planning

1:10:01is really important and mostly

1:10:03understanding uh what are the limits and

1:10:08the restrictions and the constraints

1:10:10that we have that we need to sort it

1:10:12out.

1:10:14>> Thank you.

1:10:14>> Thank you.

1:10:16>> Thank you sir. We've really enjoyed your

1:10:18presentation obviously

1:10:21>> uh and we might need some more of this

1:10:23at some point.

1:10:24>> Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for

1:10:25the wonderful staff that also made my

1:10:28traveling and stay here in Virginia

1:10:30Beach really pleasant. Thank you so

1:10:31much.

1:10:37>> We will switch gears and start going

1:10:39over the agenda items.

1:10:45All

1:10:52right. So, item one, this is uh or was

1:10:56the referral resolution uh regarding the

1:10:58short-term rental overlay district. This

1:11:00was withdrawn by the city council at

1:11:02their October 6, 2026 hearing. Um so,

1:11:06this will not be moving forward at this

1:11:08time.

1:11:18Good morning everyone.

1:11:20>> Morning.

1:11:21>> Item number two is a request for a

1:11:23subdivision variance to section 4.4B and

1:11:26D of the subdivision regulations to

1:11:29address deficiencies in the required lot

1:11:31with street line frontage and lack of

1:11:32direct access to a public street for the

1:11:35proposed lot 7A and 7B. This 36,624

1:11:40foot parcel is zoned R 7.5 residential

1:11:42district and is located within the

1:11:44Beachwood neighborhood as well as the

1:11:45Sore Drive corridor overlay district.

1:11:48The site currently contains a single

1:11:49family dwelling that was constructed in

1:11:511940 which is proposed to be removed

1:11:53with this request. The R7.5 residential

1:11:56district requires a minimum lot area of

1:11:587500 square feet, a minimum lot width of

1:12:0175 ft, and a minimum street line

1:12:03frontage of 60 ft for single family

1:12:05dwellings.

1:12:06While the proposed lot 7C will meet all

1:12:08dimensional requirements of the R7.5

1:12:11residential zoning district, the

1:12:12proposed lot 7A and 7B will be deficient

1:12:15in lot with street line frontage and

1:12:17will lack direct access to a public

1:12:18street. As such, a subdivision variance

1:12:21is required to provide access to the

1:12:23proposed lots. The conceptual site

1:12:24layout depicts a 29 foot wide private

1:12:27access easement. In its [snorts] current

1:12:29form with a lot area of 36,624

1:12:32square feet and a lot width

1:12:33approximately 128 feet. The subject

1:12:36parcel is unique in that it is much

1:12:38larger than the majority of parcels

1:12:39within the Beachwood neighborhood which

1:12:41range in size from approximately 7500 to

1:12:4415,000 square feet and approximately 75

1:12:46to 120 ft in lot width. This lot also

1:12:50has frontages on both Hook Lane and

1:12:52Northampton Boulevard. Northampton

1:12:54Boulevard is an access controlled

1:12:55roadway and thus direct access from the

1:12:57subject parcel to Northampton Boulevard

1:12:59is not permitted.

1:13:01The original parcel was over an acre in

1:13:03size when it was first platted in 1902.

1:13:05The site has been the subject of two

1:13:07takings since its original platting. The

1:13:09first in July of 1962 by the

1:13:10Commonwealth of Virginia for the

1:13:12creation of Northampton Boulevard and

1:13:14the second in 1981 by the city of

1:13:15Virginia Beach for the widening of Hook

1:13:18Lane.

1:13:19>> [snorts]

1:13:20>> Given the unique dimensional

1:13:21characteristics, the parcel has a lot

1:13:23area to accommodate the three proposed

1:13:24parcels, but lacks sufficient street

1:13:26frontage to subdivide as proposed

1:13:27without a subdivision variance being

1:13:29granted. Staff is of the opinion that

1:13:31the proposed layout, which includes one

1:13:33conforming single family parcel along

1:13:34Hook Lane, will conform to the overall

1:13:36characteristics and development pattern

1:13:38of the neighborhood, and approval of the

1:13:39subdivision variance would not adversely

1:13:41affect the surrounding properties or the

1:13:43overall neighborhood. While the proposed

1:13:46layout initially proposed a shared

1:13:47access easement over all three parcels,

1:13:50the updated ex and updated exhibit was

1:13:52provided by the applicant which depicts

1:13:53a separate driveway to serve the

1:13:55proposed lot 7C as a shore drive

1:13:57corridor design guidelines recommend the

1:13:59use of shared access drive. Staff is

1:14:00recommending a condition that access to

1:14:02all proposed lots be via the private

1:14:04ingress egress easement depicted on the

1:14:06conceptual layout and that the separate

1:14:08curb cut and driveway proposed for lot

1:14:107C shall not be permitted. Utilizing a

1:14:12shared access will limit the number of

1:14:13curb cuts along Hook Lane, thereby

1:14:15reducing the number of conflict points

1:14:16for vehicles and pedestrians while also

1:14:19reducing the amount of overall

1:14:20impervious cover. The applicant has

1:14:22provided inspiration images depicting

1:14:24the proposed single family dwellings

1:14:25which appear to be consistent with the

1:14:27character of the surrounding area and

1:14:28the design principles outlined in the

1:14:30shore drive corridor design guidelines.

1:14:32Staff has recommended condition five,

1:14:34which requires the architectural design

1:14:35of the three proposed single family

1:14:37dwellings be consistent with the

1:14:38recommendations outlined in the imagined

1:14:40BB2040 comprehensive plan for the area

1:14:43and be subject to the review and

1:14:44approval of the planning director.

1:14:46Similarly, to further ensure consistency

1:14:48with the SH drive corridor design

1:14:50guideline, staff has recommended

1:14:51condition six to require the front

1:14:52facade of the dwelling fronting hook

1:14:54lane be at least five feet wider than

1:14:56the garage and that the garage portion

1:14:58of the dwelling be set back at least 5

1:15:00ft further than the house from the

1:15:02street. Staff finds the proposal

1:15:04satisfies the criteria found in section

1:15:069.3 of the subdivision regulations and

1:15:08recommends approval of this request

1:15:09subject to the conditions listed in the

1:15:11staff report. Staff has received one

1:15:13letter of support from the Beachwood

1:15:14Civic League. Additionally, the

1:15:16applicant has indicated to staff that

1:15:18they would like to modify the conditions

1:15:20to remove the condition regarding that

1:15:23the three lots share the or share access

1:15:26through the private easement and the

1:15:28condition regarding or condition six

1:15:30regarding the front facade of the

1:15:31dwelling that fronts hook lane.

1:15:35My area I've only heard uh what she just

1:15:39gave us and

1:15:41I'm for consent unless anyone else has

1:15:45Mr. Plumbley,

1:15:47>> when I went by there on Monday, I didn't

1:15:49see a sign out.

1:15:51I looked around for it and then I had to

1:15:53move on. I don't know if if you could

1:15:55check that just to make sure that that

1:15:57was done. Um, explain to me again what

1:16:00the condition is that they want to

1:16:02change specifically.

1:16:03>> It's two conditions they'd like to

1:16:04modify.

1:16:05>> Numbers.

1:16:06>> Yes. And let me just confirm

1:16:10the condition regarding the front facade

1:16:12is condition six of the request and then

1:16:16the condition regarding the sharing of

1:16:20the access easement and I don't have it

1:16:22in front of me but I believe it's

1:16:24condition one. Caitlyn, can you confirm

1:16:26>> it's incorporated in to condition one?

1:16:28So this is the plan that has been

1:16:30presented by the applicant. Um staff

1:16:34would like to condition this plan except

1:16:36for the driveway that is shown to serve

1:16:39proposed lot 7C. We would propose that

1:16:42that not be permitted and that access

1:16:44only come via that shared access

1:16:46easement along the west property line um

1:16:49that would feed lot 7C as well. And I

1:16:52apologize the exhibit's not clear. There

1:16:54was color markings that were done but

1:16:55they appear not to have saved.

1:16:57>> So the thatched area is the right way.

1:17:00Is that what you're saying? That's the

1:17:01proposed

1:17:02>> that's the proposed 29 foot wide shared

1:17:04easement.

1:17:05>> Correct.

1:17:06>> Yes. That they would all share access

1:17:07through that.

1:17:08>> So the house was going to have to be

1:17:09turned

1:17:10>> or have a side loading garage which

1:17:12would be more consistent with the design

1:17:14guidelines.

1:17:16>> It looked like there was a lot of new

1:17:18construction in this area, but I hadn't

1:17:20seen m were there multiple I didn't see

1:17:23any um lots where there were multiple

1:17:25homes on this size of lot. Is it just

1:17:28because this is a unique large lot? Yes,

1:17:30this lot is unique. Like I mentioned,

1:17:32it's got enough lot area to accommodate

1:17:35the three proposed dwellings, but the

1:17:37width of it is what's necessitating the

1:17:38subdivision variance, and it's also a

1:17:40through lot as well as being subject to

1:17:43two right-of-way takings over the years.

1:17:45>> Okay. Thank you, Commissioner Camp. So

1:17:48it looks to me like condition one was

1:17:51written before the applicant turned in

1:17:54the revised site plan because what the

1:17:57words say here are shall be via the

1:18:01proposed this is for C shall be via the

1:18:04proposed private ingress egress easement

1:18:07depicted well what's depicted

1:18:11isn't that now since they changed it

1:18:14>> so no it it was written after this was

1:18:17subed So when it was initially

1:18:18submitted, there was no driveway under

1:18:20hook lane. It was solely through a

1:18:22[snorts] private ingress egress ement.

1:18:25Now what is shown here still has the

1:18:27private ingress egress easement along

1:18:28the west but then showed a separate

1:18:30driveway to Hook Lane. So what that

1:18:32condition is saying typically we

1:18:34condition the plan, but we want to

1:18:37condition the plan subject to removing

1:18:40the driveway from Hook Lane and only

1:18:43having access for all three lots come

1:18:45from that property. understand what you

1:18:47want to accomplish, but when it says

1:18:50depicted

1:18:51>> and what we have is a picture that

1:18:53doesn't show that, that's my confusion

1:18:56here.

1:18:57>> I'm I guess I'm confused why you don't

1:18:59think it shows the ingress, egress,

1:19:01easement.

1:19:03>> What I see is the driveway going to Hook

1:19:05Lane.

1:19:07>> That's what I see. But the way this

1:19:10condition reads is except that access to

1:19:13all proposed lots shall be via the

1:19:15proposed private ingress egress ement

1:19:17depicted which is depicted along the

1:19:19west

1:19:21property line.

1:19:23>> A little dash right.

1:19:25>> Yes.

1:19:25>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:19:26>> And the applicant wants that removed

1:19:27that condition window that restriction.

1:19:30>> That restriction. Yeah. The applicant

1:19:31would like to condition as shown with

1:19:34the driveway

1:19:35>> with the driveway coming down.

1:19:36>> Correct. And what we're saying is that

1:19:37access to all proposed lot shall be via

1:19:40that private ingress e ingress egress

1:19:42easement as depicted and a separate curb

1:19:44cut solely for the benefit of lot C

1:19:47shall not be permitted.

1:19:56And what's the reason why we don't want

1:19:59the the U access onto Hookland?

1:20:02>> So the Shore Drive corridor design

1:20:05guidelines recommend shared access and

1:20:08they also um speaking to garages in

1:20:13particular would prefer a side loading

1:20:15or a detached garage. It's kind of the

1:20:18intention of the design guidelines that

1:20:20the garage not be the dominant feature

1:20:22of a dwelling. And so if it's front

1:20:25loading, it calls for at least a five

1:20:27foot set back from that from the street.

1:20:30Um, but then again shows the preference

1:20:32for side loading or a detach garage. So

1:20:36staff, it was staff's opinion that if

1:20:38you do access via that private ingress

1:20:40egress easement, then access to lot C,

1:20:43it it would accommodate a side loading

1:20:46garage, which would be more in

1:20:47conformance with the recommendations of

1:20:49the design guidelines.

1:20:53>> My question standing. I support the uh

1:20:56chair's

1:20:58proposal to put this on consent as

1:21:00written.

1:21:02>> Well, I do know that the applicant

1:21:04doesn't agree. So, I think they're going

1:21:06to want to discuss the conditions.

1:21:09>> The applicant doesn't agree, then it'll

1:21:11be removed from consent and will be

1:21:13heard later in the agenda.

1:21:16>> But for now, we're going to put it on

1:21:17consent.

1:21:24So this will be heard.

1:21:27>> Yeah. Uh Commissioner Malsh, would you

1:21:31read it then because it's in district 9?

1:21:34>> Sure.

1:21:35>> Understanding it may not be read. It may

1:21:37be redrawn.

1:21:38>> Yes, ma'am. [snorts]

1:21:39>> Thank you.

1:21:43>> Good morning. Item number three is a

1:21:44request for a modification of progress

1:21:47for Tidewater Structures LLC. You may

1:21:49remember this came before you last month

1:21:50for a 30-day deferral. The applicant is

1:21:53now requesting an indefinite deferral as

1:21:54they're still working through a shared

1:21:56parking agreement with some adjacent

1:21:58properties and they didn't want to move

1:21:59forward or they couldn't move forward

1:22:01until they got all that squared away. So

1:22:03now they're requesting an indefinite

1:22:04deferral.

1:22:22Agenda items four and five are request

1:22:25for a modification of profers and a

1:22:26conditional use permit for a bulk

1:22:28storage yard to develop an outdoor

1:22:29storage yard on a portion of this 32.36

1:22:32acre I1 light industrial district zone

1:22:34parcel. The site is located within the

1:22:36Sega 3 South Oceanana and is within the

1:22:38greater than 75 noise zone. The proposed

1:22:41use of a Volt storage yard is considered

1:22:42a compatible use within the noise zone.

1:22:45The site is also located within the

1:22:47corporate landing business park and is

1:22:48subject to the corporate landing

1:22:50business park design guidelines. The

1:22:52outdoor storage yard will be used to for

1:22:55the storage of construction materials,

1:22:56roofing supplies, tools, equipment,

1:22:58vehicles, trailers, and other contractor

1:23:00related items. The applicant also

1:23:02intends to construct an approximately

1:23:0333,000 square foot warehouse building on

1:23:06the site, which is permitted by Wright.

1:23:08On November 9th of 1993, city council

1:23:10granted a conditional reszoning of this

1:23:12site with subsequent proper

1:23:14modifications in 1996 and 2021. Proper

1:23:18four of the 2021 profer stated that

1:23:20except for permanent facility

1:23:21construction, exterior storage shall be

1:23:23prohibited. As such, a modification of

1:23:25profers is required for the proposed

1:23:27use. The zoning ordinance requires the

1:23:30bolts that bolt storage yards be

1:23:31enclosed by category 6 screening. The

1:23:33applicant is requesting a deviation to

1:23:35the required fencing requirements

1:23:37through the provisions of section 221i

1:23:38of the zoning ordinance. The con the

1:23:41submitted concept plan and fence exhibit

1:23:43include category 1 landscaping around

1:23:44the entire perimeter of the site.

1:23:46However, the applicant is requesting a

1:23:48deviation to the installation of a solid

1:23:49fence. The applicant proposes an 8-ft

1:23:52tall decorative fence, perforated metal

1:23:54fence along the northwest and southeast

1:23:56perimeter, and an 8ft tall black vinyl

1:23:58coated chain link fence with privacy

1:23:59slats along the east perimeter. The area

1:24:02proposed for the chain link fence will

1:24:04not be visible from the ride ofway and

1:24:05is adjacent to existing vegetation on

1:24:07the site that is proposed to remain. In

1:24:10staff's review, the request for

1:24:11modification of profers and a

1:24:12conditional use permit for a bolt

1:24:13storage yard are acceptable. The

1:24:16property is identified in the imagine

1:24:17VB2040 comprehensive plan as being

1:24:19within an industrial and logistics place

1:24:21type. These areas are intended to

1:24:23provide a well landscape buffered

1:24:24setting for large-scale industrial

1:24:26logistics and warehousing uses along

1:24:28with supporting services and retailers.

1:24:29The proposed bulk storage yard is

1:24:31consistent with the comprehensive plans

1:24:33land use policies for this area as

1:24:35majority of the land in this vicinity is

1:24:37envisioned for commercial and industrial

1:24:39uses and more specifically uses that are

1:24:41compatible with Maval flight operations.

1:24:44The site is located adjacent to

1:24:45Corporate Landing Parkway, Dunwitty

1:24:46Park, and residential properties at the

1:24:48rear of the site. To minimize the visual

1:24:50and operational impacts of the proposed

1:24:52facility from the ride ofway and

1:24:54surrounding residences, the applicant is

1:24:56proposing to locate the bolt storage

1:24:57yard behind the building and is

1:24:58proposing to retain existing on-site

1:25:00vegetation outside the limits of

1:25:02disturbance.

1:25:04The overall development proposal,

1:25:06including the proposed outdoor storage

1:25:07yard and proposed decorative metal

1:25:09fencing, was presented to the VBDA on

1:25:11September 8th and received unanimous

1:25:13support. In staff's view, the proposed

1:25:15use is compatible with the other

1:25:16industrial uses located within the

1:25:18corporate landing business park and is

1:25:19deemed compatible with naval flight

1:25:21operations. As such, staff is

1:25:22recommending approval of this request

1:25:24subject to the conditions and profers

1:25:25listed in the staff report. And staff

1:25:27has received no opposition to this

1:25:29request and there are no speakers signed

1:25:30up at this time.

1:25:33Commissioner Camps.

1:25:36At the top of this depiction where we go

1:25:40above the vegetative buffer, which is

1:25:42the dashed line running left to right,

1:25:45is that fencing that is continuing up

1:25:48into the vegetative buffer?

1:25:50>> Yes.

1:25:52>> Along the rest of the fence line, you've

1:25:54identified or someone has identified

1:25:56different types of fencing. What

1:25:58[clears throat] is the type of fencing

1:26:00up there in the vegetation?

1:26:03>> So, what's proposed in that area is

1:26:06vinyl coated chain link with privacy

1:26:08slats. And there's also on the side that

1:26:11is

1:26:13adjacent to an existing business, the

1:26:15address of which I don't know

1:26:17immediately is perforated panels.

1:26:19>> So, the drawing you have up right now

1:26:22has blue on that top flat section.

1:26:26>> Yes.

1:26:26>> That's not where I'm talking about. If

1:26:28you flip back to the prior area,

1:26:32you're talking along the dash line.

1:26:34That's where that cuts off. I asked you

1:26:37about the fence that is above the dash

1:26:39line.

1:26:42>> Yes, that is proposed to be vinyl coated

1:26:44chain link with privacy slats.

1:26:46>> I'm telling you that that's not the same

1:26:48area here.

1:26:49>> If I can.

1:26:50>> Yes. the issue um or I think kind of the

1:26:54conflicting thing here right now they

1:26:56have a site plan that's currently in

1:26:59that shows the bulk storage yard not

1:27:02encroaching into that 75 ft buffer the

1:27:06conceptual plan with this application

1:27:08shows it encroaching I think by the

1:27:10nature of this we would say that it

1:27:13would go up and it would follow h

1:27:15however whatever the final boundary we

1:27:17would say that would be the vinyl chain

1:27:19link we've been trying to work back and

1:27:21forth with the applicant to make various

1:27:25um plans, conceptual and site plan, all

1:27:28mesh. Um we just haven't gotten to a

1:27:31point of doing that and that's why we've

1:27:33also included a condition here um

1:27:35specific to that 75 ft reservation area

1:27:39as it is still shown currently.

1:27:41>> All right. So just to put a button on

1:27:44this, I think you're confirming what I

1:27:47saw that these two diagrams have two

1:27:51different areas. The prior one that

1:27:54encompasses more area than what is shown

1:27:56here.

1:27:58Has the staff have the staff and the

1:28:01applicant agreed upon the boundaries

1:28:04that we're talking about or not for the

1:28:07fence?

1:28:09So I I well and I'll try to answer that

1:28:12maybe in two different

1:28:13>> Let me just say why I'm asking it. If we

1:28:16put if we approve this on consent, I

1:28:18want to know what we're approving.

1:28:20That's what I'm asking you.

1:28:21>> The way that we would

1:28:25enforce this is the ultimate boundary of

1:28:27the bulk storage yard area. Whatever.

1:28:30And I'm not I can't see this. Let's see.

1:28:33North northeast whatever that blue line

1:28:35ultimately ends up being. whether it's

1:28:38up a little bit or follows this boundary

1:28:40would be the vinyl coated chain link

1:28:42with flat the um boundary here and

1:28:46because it would also impact what is

1:28:47shown to be perforated the metal panel

1:28:49the orange line would also extend up

1:28:52further. So whatever the ultimate

1:28:54boundary is of the bulk storage yard

1:28:56area because the perimeter of the bulk

1:28:59storage yard has to be enclosed would

1:29:01follow this. Whether or not the ultimate

1:29:03boundary shifts slightly more north and

1:29:07northeast it would follow this layout.

1:29:09>> So [snorts] thank you. You're not asking

1:29:12us for an encroachment into the

1:29:15vegetative offer?

1:29:19>> No. And that's um that's not a part of

1:29:22this application.

1:29:23>> And that's why with um

1:29:25>> condition number

1:29:25>> specific condition

1:29:27>> is that the bulk storage yard should not

1:29:29encroach into that area unless that area

1:29:32is removed with a future plaque.

1:29:34>> Got it. Okay. Thank you. Hopefully my

1:29:37second question's easier. Last month we

1:29:40had a bulk storage yard, same part of

1:29:42the city and one of the things that came

1:29:45up and I'd say it's similar to me is

1:29:47this is that city council had already

1:29:50decided no that you won't have outdoor

1:29:52storage there that it was approved for

1:29:55other uses. Now here we are city council

1:29:58has approved a certain set of conditions

1:30:00just a couple years ago. Why is this

1:30:03back here for another bite at the same

1:30:05apple when it's already settled?

1:30:08Um, it was a request of the applicant.

1:30:12We said we would not bring it forward

1:30:13unless it had been presented to the

1:30:15Virginia Beach Development Authority

1:30:16since it's part of the design guidelines

1:30:19for corporate landing. Um, that speaks

1:30:22to

1:30:23outdoor storage except during

1:30:25construction. Um and so that's why the

1:30:27modification is before you is that to do

1:30:30the outdoor storage that they're

1:30:31proposing would have to modify that um

1:30:36that part of the design guidelines that

1:30:37prohibits outdoor storage. It is

1:30:40something that for the VBDA they said

1:30:44for this specific site given its

1:30:46location in the park and the limited

1:30:48visibility from the public right ofway

1:30:51they felt that it was okay in this area.

1:30:54So that's why the request was brought

1:30:56forth.

1:30:56>> But the same site last time around was

1:30:59not okay. I'm asking what's changed.

1:31:03>> The previous um modification didn't look

1:31:06specifically at this site. It was

1:31:07looking at a larger area of the park

1:31:10overall. So, um, in our conversations

1:31:12with economic development is that, um,

1:31:18they would still want to, um, be mindful

1:31:23of outdoor storage within the park

1:31:24overall. They felt that in this

1:31:26location, given the lack of visibility

1:31:28from the right of way, the outdoor

1:31:31storage was not a concern, but they

1:31:32wouldn't necessarily want that um closer

1:31:36to um drawing a blank right now, but

1:31:39closer to general booth or um where the

1:31:42visibility would be greater from the

1:31:43right away.

1:31:48>> Consent.

1:31:52If it's going on consent, please mark my

1:31:54vote as nay.

1:31:57>> If you're going to vote no, then it

1:31:58would need to be on the regular agenda

1:32:00per the rules of procedure.

1:32:03>> I'm not I'm not trying to trigger a

1:32:04hearing here, but I just I do not care

1:32:07for coming back on the same question

1:32:10again and again till we get the answer

1:32:11we like. So

1:32:13>> So we're going to hear it.

1:32:14>> No, let's go ahead and just go ahead and

1:32:16pass it because it's fruitless at this

1:32:18point. It's 10 to one.

1:32:21Well, I mean, if you want to be on

1:32:22record as no, it's not a big deal. We

1:32:23don't have to discuss it at length in

1:32:25there. Just hear it and vote our way and

1:32:27move on.

1:32:28>> We don't need to have the hearing. It's

1:32:30fine.

1:32:31>> Okay.

1:32:36[snorts]

1:32:42Commissioner will read it. Thank you.

1:32:46Thank you.

1:32:49>> Agenda item five is a request for

1:32:51modification of conditions to a

1:32:52conditional use permit for religious use

1:32:54to modify the previously approved

1:32:55concept plan and building elevations.

1:32:58This site contains a Crescent Community

1:32:59Center which has been in operation on

1:33:01this site since 2020. On September 24th

1:33:05of 2013, a conditional use permit for

1:33:07religious use was granted on this

1:33:08property to develop the site with a

1:33:1012,300T worship center. The conditions

1:33:12specified that the site be developed in

1:33:14substantial conformance to the

1:33:15conceptual site plan and building

1:33:17elevations. Therefore, a modification of

1:33:19conditions is required for their

1:33:20proposed additions. The applicant

1:33:22intends to increase the size of their

1:33:24community center building to add a

1:33:267,800t Sunday school area, a 7,900 ft²

1:33:29family social hall and kitchen area, a

1:33:314,000t sanctuary edition, and a 4,000t

1:33:34administrative space addition.

1:33:36Additionally, the applicant is proposing

1:33:38to construct a 4200 square footston

1:33:40children's playground, a 4,700 foot

1:33:42multi-purpose sports court, and 249 new

1:33:45parking spaces. The proposed additions

1:33:47will match the architecture, materials,

1:33:49colors, and height of the existing

1:33:51building. The parking requirement will

1:33:53be met and exceeded on site. The request

1:33:56for modification of conditions is in

1:33:58staff's opinion acceptable. The site

1:34:00falls within the courthouse context area

1:34:01princess commons and agriculture

1:34:03non-place type which calls for the

1:34:05continuation of low impact and

1:34:06lowintensity businesses and activities

1:34:08that help diversify the city's economy

1:34:10and culture. The proposed expansion will

1:34:12be a continuation of the existing

1:34:13community use and will be consistent

1:34:15with the one-story height and

1:34:16architectural character of the existing

1:34:18building. Staff does not anticipate any

1:34:20adverse impacts to the surrounding

1:34:21property owners as a result of this

1:34:23request. In order to mitigate any

1:34:24potential impacts of the multi-purpose

1:34:26sports court, staff has recommended

1:34:27condition eight to limit the use of the

1:34:29multi-purpose sports court to daylight

1:34:30hours and condition nine to prohibit the

1:34:33use of the court for pickle ball. Since

1:34:35this property is located within the

1:34:36inter facility traffic area, it was

1:34:37recommended by staff that the applicant

1:34:39appear before the TITACAC.

1:34:41The applicant appear before the

1:34:43committee on September 3rd and they

1:34:44voted unanimously to recommend support

1:34:46of this proposal. And again, staff is

1:34:48recommending approval of this request

1:34:50subject to the conditions listed in the

1:34:51staff report.

1:34:56Um

1:34:58the I went to the site visit and the

1:35:00only concerns I had were the u the BMP

1:35:04and storm water but um Alexis is um

1:35:09confirmed my or assured my concerns

1:35:12about that. So I think we're good to go.

1:35:14Okay. Consent.

1:35:17>> Will you read it?

1:35:30>> Good morning again. Item number seven is

1:35:33a request by BB Investments LLC and

1:35:35they're requesting a conditional

1:35:37resoning from B2 Community Business

1:35:39District to conditional A18 apartment

1:35:42district to develop the 1.66 66 acres

1:35:45with a 23 unit town home style

1:35:47condominium development. This is

1:35:49resulting in a density of 13.9 units per

1:35:53acre. The property is located along

1:35:55Baker Road and is currently developed

1:35:57with a daycare center on one lot and a

1:35:59commercial office complex on the other.

1:36:02As depicted on the profer conceptual

1:36:04site plan, the proposed development

1:36:06consists of five three-story buildings,

1:36:09including three buildings with four

1:36:10units, one building with five units, and

1:36:13one building with six. Vehicle access to

1:36:16the development will be provided by a

1:36:18shared driveway from Baker Road. The

1:36:20site will have a maximum lot coverage of

1:36:2241.8% 8% which is complies with the 50%

1:36:26maximum allowed in the A18 for multi for

1:36:29multi multifamily dwellings. The

1:36:32applicant proposes street frontage and

1:36:34building foundation landscaping along

1:36:36Baker Road as well as interior parking

1:36:38lot landscaping throughout the site

1:36:40which satisfies the requirements of the

1:36:42zoning and site plan ordinances as

1:36:44[snorts] shown the proper elevations and

1:36:46renderings. The proposed buildings will

1:36:48consist of materials consisting of

1:36:50premium vinyl siding, premium vinyl

1:36:52board and batten, white PVC trim, black

1:36:55vinyl windows, and a Greystone veneer

1:36:58water table. The buildings will have a

1:37:00maximum height of 33 feet and 8 in,

1:37:03which is below the maximum 35 ft

1:37:05permitted in the A18. Rightway

1:37:07improvements are proposed consistent

1:37:09with the city's act active

1:37:11transportation plan, improving the

1:37:13existing sidewalk along Baker Road to an

1:37:158 foot wide side path along the entire

1:37:18frontage of the site. Additionally, an

1:37:208-ft tall panel style vinyl fence PVC

1:37:24fence and a earth tone color is proposed

1:37:27as well as a 5-ft tall freestanding

1:37:29monument sign at the entrance of the

1:37:31development. and it the the sign will

1:37:34have the required landscaping

1:37:36surrounding the sign as [snorts]

1:37:37specified in section 203B 11.1 of the

1:37:40zoning ordinance. A reduced parking

1:37:42requirement of 1/ half space for a

1:37:44dwelling unit is permitted for

1:37:46developments located within 1/ half mile

1:37:48of a covered bus stop. A covered bus

1:37:50stop is proposed along Baker Road

1:37:53adjacent to the site. However, there is

1:37:55no specific timeline. There is a CIP

1:37:58project under review and I reached out

1:38:00to the project manager. It could be nine

1:38:02months. It could be two to three years.

1:38:04So, we don't know. And so, since the

1:38:06covered bus stop is not currently there,

1:38:09they could not utilize the reduced

1:38:10parking. However, each unit will include

1:38:13one and a half garage and two in a

1:38:16twocar garage and a twocar driveway with

1:38:18an additional six guest parking spaces

1:38:21provided throughout the site. Therefore,

1:38:23the proposed development provided

1:38:25throughout the development proposed

1:38:27development exceeds the zoning

1:38:29requirements for parking um on the site.

1:38:31Overall, staff finds that the proposed

1:38:33conditional resoning request provides an

1:38:35appropriate redevelopment opportunity

1:38:37for the commercially developed site and

1:38:39introduces a residential development

1:38:41pattern that is compatible with the

1:38:43surrounding type 2 neighborhood context.

1:38:46the proposed density, town home style

1:38:49building form, the building height,

1:38:50parking, landscaping, architectural

1:38:53materials, and Baker Road pedestrian

1:38:55improvements. Collectly provide a

1:38:57development that is appropriately scaled

1:38:59and designed for the surrounding area.

1:39:01For these reasons, staff recommends

1:39:03approval of the request subject to the

1:39:05proper listed in your staff report.

1:39:07Staff is unaware of any opposition and

1:39:09we don't have any registered speakers at

1:39:11this time.

1:39:13Yes,

1:39:15>> Michelle. I What is this uh what's the

1:39:19setback distance off of Baker? When I

1:39:21went there, I couldn't

1:39:23get it.

1:39:24>> So, in the A18 is a 30 foot setback.

1:39:28>> So, they're not pulling them any closer,

1:39:30but there's some landscaping there.

1:39:32>> Okay. Thank you.

1:39:33>> Sure.

1:39:34>> Commissioner Mos and Commissioner

1:39:35Anderson. Not that it really matters uh

1:39:37because there's plenty of capacity, but

1:39:38I was just curious to see how they got

1:39:40to the one student per um elementary,

1:39:43one student per middle, and one student

1:39:45per high high school. Um

1:39:48doesn't doesn't need to be really

1:39:50discussed, but I was just maybe later. I

1:39:54was just curious about how they got

1:39:56that. So as an estimate of course they

1:39:58won't be able to actually give real

1:40:00numbers until the development is

1:40:02provided and then at that time they do

1:40:05another evaluation to make sure that

1:40:07everything is that the schools and if

1:40:09they have to make any adjustments to

1:40:11where the kids are going or if they have

1:40:13to add maybe a trailer or something they

1:40:15do that evaluation once they get there.

1:40:17>> Thank you.

1:40:18>> Sure.

1:40:20>> Anderson you know what my question is

1:40:22going to be.

1:40:23>> Yes. about the fence. Even though that

1:40:26it's going to be an earth tone style

1:40:27fence and they added a note there, even

1:40:30though that shows white, it's not going

1:40:32to be white. There is a note that says

1:40:34>> you're not as reluctant for white on

1:40:36this location, but the earth tone will

1:40:39tie in better with their materials that

1:40:42were they're putting on the building.

1:40:44>> So, just look at the picture as the

1:40:45style of the fence, the color.

1:40:48>> Yeah, it's it's just blinding. Purple

1:40:51tie-dye fence is a perfect location.

1:40:54[laughter]

1:40:58>> What are you trying to say? [laughter]

1:41:01>> You cracked me up.

1:41:04[snorts]

1:41:04>> You heard any the forest.

1:41:06>> Thank you. This is this is my district.

1:41:08I haven't heard any opposition and I do

1:41:11believe it complies with the

1:41:12comprehensive plan that calls for mixed

1:41:14use and higher density. Unfortunately,

1:41:17it doesn't have the mixeduse element,

1:41:19but at least it does have the higher

1:41:20density and increased housing and

1:41:23appears to be affordable housing,

1:41:24although not workforce. Commissioner

1:41:26Bjani, could you read it for me? Thank

1:41:29you.

1:41:37>> All right. The next item is item number

1:41:39eight and this is a request from Rama TC

1:41:42LLC and this is a conditional resoning

1:41:44from B3 central business district to

1:41:46conditional B4 mixed use with a

1:41:48workforce housing overlay. You may

1:41:49remember this application um it was

1:41:52deferred indefinitely a couple of

1:41:54meetings ago. The applicant is

1:41:56requesting an indefinite deferral um

1:41:59because they want to revise the plans.

1:42:03um staff reached out to them and let

1:42:05them know about the reduced set um

1:42:07parking requirements because there is a

1:42:09covered bus stop within this area. So,

1:42:11they're able to reduce the parking and

1:42:14lower the stories of the building. So,

1:42:16they want to make those revisions and

1:42:17come back for you as soon as possible.

1:42:19Yes. uh with that deferral um I noticed

1:42:23on one of the pictures um and I don't

1:42:25know what the age group limit on for the

1:42:29uh child care um can you guys can staff

1:42:35>> what's that

1:42:37>> this is on item eight

1:42:38>> oh okay I'm sorry

1:42:41>> any other questions about this one this

1:42:43is an indefinite deferral

1:42:44>> oh okay sorry

1:42:48>> and I will say for my two items that are

1:42:50indefinite deferral. This one and the

1:42:52tide water structures the applicants

1:42:53won't be here but they do have the

1:42:55letters on file so you don't have to

1:42:56call them.

1:42:57>> Thank you.

1:43:06>> Moving too fast.

1:43:18Good morning everyone. Agenda item nine

1:43:21is a request for a conditional use

1:43:23permit for a family daycare home for up

1:43:25to 12 children within an existing single

1:43:27family dwelling. The applicant proposes

1:43:30caring for children ages 2 to 5 in a

1:43:32monastery inspired environment focused

1:43:33on independence, creativity, and school

1:43:35readiness. The daycare will be operated

1:43:38by the applicants with no additional

1:43:39staff. Proposed hours of operation are

1:43:416:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. Monday through

1:43:44Friday with staggered drop off and

1:43:45pickup times to reduce congestion in the

1:43:47rideway. The applicant is also actively

1:43:50pursuing licensing with the Department

1:43:52of Education.

1:43:54The fenced in grass backyard will serve

1:43:56as the outdoor play area. An above

1:43:58ground pool and deck are located in the

1:44:00backyard and the applicant proposes

1:44:01installing a 4ft tall metal gate to

1:44:04restrict access to the area. Conditions

1:44:06eight and nine are recommended to ensure

1:44:08the pool area remains properly enclosed

1:44:11fence and fencing is maintained.

1:44:14Community outreach was done by the

1:44:15applicant which included two rounds of

1:44:17letters sent to the surrounding property

1:44:19owners. Staff has received one letter of

1:44:22support as well as five letters of

1:44:24opposition with concerns relating to

1:44:26traffic, property value, safety, and

1:44:28noise. Staff is recommending approval

1:44:30subject to the conditions in the staff

1:44:32report.

1:44:36Mr. Plumbley,

1:44:37>> is there anyone signed up to speak?

1:44:39>> No, there are no speakers.

1:44:40>> Um,

1:44:42I kind of had when I went there, it it's

1:44:45a very um quiet street. Um, I kind of

1:44:50observed it for a little while. That

1:44:52corner is interesting because it both

1:44:54slows traffic down, but it's also kind

1:44:56of a blind curve in a way when you're

1:44:58coming around this. But there,

1:45:00everything's fenced and and it's going

1:45:02to be

1:45:04Thank you.

1:45:07>> Yeah, this is my district. I would like

1:45:09to have the hearing on this one.

1:45:12I have some questions for the applicant

1:45:14based on the letters.

1:45:24Agenda items 10 and 11 are requests for

1:45:27a conditional use permit for a tattoo

1:45:29parlor in a body piercing establishment

1:45:31within a 1500 ft² unit of an existing

1:45:34shopping center. Proposed hours

1:45:35[clears throat] of operation are 10:00

1:45:37a.m. to 7:00 p.m. daily primarily

1:45:39operated by scheduled appointments.

1:45:41However, limited walk-in services will

1:45:42be offered on designated days. The

1:45:44applicant is proposing up to eight

1:45:46employees. A Sunchild studio sign is

1:45:49proposed at the front entrance. A

1:45:51separate sign permit will be required

1:45:52and must comply with the city zoning

1:45:54ordinance. No other exterior

1:45:56modifications are proposed per section

1:45:59203 of the zoning ordinance. Six parking

1:46:01spaces are required and approximately

1:46:03115 are available within the shared law

1:46:05exceeding the requirement. Parking is

1:46:08shared amongst other commercial uses

1:46:09including retail, grocery, and eating

1:46:11and drinking establishments.

1:46:14The proposed uses are compatible not

1:46:16only with the comprehensive plan special

1:46:18use business place type, but also with

1:46:20the uses already present within the

1:46:22shopping center and represent an

1:46:23appropriate reuse of a vacant unit.

1:46:26Staff recommends approval subject to the

1:46:28conditions in the staff report.

1:46:34>> I haven't heard from anybody

1:46:39about it. So consent. Will you read it?

1:46:43Thank you.

1:46:47>> Agenda item 12 is a request for a

1:46:49conditional use permit for a residential

1:46:51kennel for up to six dogs within an

1:46:54existing single family dwelling on a

1:46:551.09 acre parcel.

1:46:58The applicant is seeking approval solely

1:47:00to house her personal pets. No

1:47:02commercial kennel or boarding operations

1:47:04are proposed. The applicant currently

1:47:07houses four dogs on site, which is the

1:47:08maximum permitted by right, and wishes

1:47:10to obtain one or two more. All dogs will

1:47:14reside within the existing single family

1:47:16dwelling and will only be outside for

1:47:18bathroom breaks and fresh air. The

1:47:20backyard is fully fenced that includes a

1:47:21second interior fence that provides an

1:47:23additional layer of containment. No

1:47:25exterior modifications are proposed.

1:47:28The applicant conducted outreach to

1:47:30nearby property owners and staff

1:47:32received four letters of support as well

1:47:34as two letters of opposition.

1:47:36Staff recommends approval of the request

1:47:38subject to the conditions in the staff

1:47:40report.

1:47:44>> District here

1:47:45>> have any speakers?

1:47:47>> There are no speakers signed up.

1:47:49>> Okay. Consent

1:47:51commissioner. Um uh I spoke with uh

1:47:54Holly yesterday morning and as of

1:47:57yesterday morning she had not heard from

1:47:59anybody. So she felt uh consent was

1:48:03>> um good. [snorts]

1:48:04>> Are are these this is the application we

1:48:07received to recent communications about

1:48:10of concern was primarily noise but

1:48:12they've not speak.

1:48:14>> Yeah. I don't know they that came in

1:48:16after I spoke with Holly.

1:48:20[snorts]

1:48:22Commissioner Cromwell, can you read

1:48:24that?

1:48:25>> Sure.

1:48:26>> Thank you. Holl's out.

1:48:28>> If anyone doesn't know, Holly's in

1:48:31Richmond at the recent

1:48:35yesterday of her sister-in-law.

1:48:42Agenda item 13 is request for a

1:48:44conditional use permit for a

1:48:45three-bedroom short-term rental at 511st

1:48:47Street. The three-bedroom dwelling

1:48:49requires three off- streetet parking

1:48:51spaces. The site currently contains a

1:48:53threecar gravel parking pad. The

1:48:55existing parking pad and gravel do not

1:48:57meet the public works design standards.

1:48:59As such, condition two has been

1:49:01recommended that a driveway shall be

1:49:02installed and designed in accordance

1:49:04with all applicable city standards with

1:49:06an approved driveway permit prior to the

1:49:08issuance of the first short-term rental

1:49:09annual permit. The site has no prior

1:49:12zoning complaints, is currently

1:49:14advertised, and the last known

1:49:15documented stay was June 1st of 2026.

1:49:18Based on the considerations, staff is

1:49:20recommending approval of this request

1:49:21subject to the conditions listed in the

1:49:23staff report.

1:49:26Mr.

1:49:28>> So because I didn't bring the map, but

1:49:32my understanding is council wants to

1:49:35send back to us the consideration of the

1:49:38mat that we heard before,

1:49:42not to uh increase back, but to shrink

1:49:46further.

1:49:48Um, and the idea is there's a concern

1:49:51over the continuity with that

1:49:53neighborhood with the lobe. If you were

1:49:56looking at it, the one that sticking up

1:49:58to the right, [snorts] pull that back

1:50:01down um towards the ocean front.

1:50:06And the only concerns I hear about these

1:50:08types of Well, let me let me go back. Is

1:50:11this within the map? Um Um, do you know?

1:50:14>> I do not know. I without having it in

1:50:16front of me, I can't say definitively.

1:50:18>> You can look because I'm going to ask

1:50:19for both of these to be heard uh um

1:50:22these coming up because they're on these

1:50:25half streets and that's where the

1:50:27complaints have come the most. So, I'm

1:50:29going to want to talk to the applicant

1:50:31about the activity on these half streets

1:50:33and I'd like to know where these are

1:50:36within the map that we've got. Kathy may

1:50:39know,

1:50:40>> would we fall into some sort of a

1:50:43strange area if we're taking into

1:50:45consideration the future map and not

1:50:47what we currently have in place? And I

1:50:49don't want to not have the conversation.

1:50:52I just

1:50:52>> I'll be strange about it. Go ahead.

1:50:55>> So, and I can get some help here from

1:50:57Tori, but we just don't know what the

1:50:59boundary is going to be yet.

1:51:00>> Okay. So, where does this fall within

1:51:04the map that we looked at and approved?

1:51:07It remains in the overlay.

1:51:09>> It is within the proper overlay. Both

1:51:12this one and the next

1:51:13>> the most recent that you've seen. Yes.

1:51:15>> All right. That's what I want.

1:51:17>> All three iterations that have

1:51:19>> It's still in the overlay. Both of them.

1:51:21Thank you.

1:51:22>> I still want to hear it. Okay.

1:51:26>> I'm very clear.

1:51:28[laughter]

1:51:30The final item is item 14, a request for

1:51:33a conditional use permit for a

1:51:34three-bedroom short-term rental at

1:51:354142nd and a half street. The

1:51:38three-bedroom short-term rental is

1:51:39required to have three off- streetet

1:51:40parking spaces. The site has a onecar

1:51:42garage, and the applicant has submitted

1:51:44an intent to lease off-site parking

1:51:46agreement to lease two parking spaces at

1:51:48the Jungle Golf commercial parking lot,

1:51:49which is located 0.16 miles from the

1:51:52site. The site has no prior zoning

1:51:54complaints is currently advertised and

1:51:55the last known documented stay was June

1:51:5721st, 2026. Based on the considerations

1:52:00above, staff is recommending approval of

1:52:02this request subject to the conditions

1:52:03listed in the staff report.

1:52:05[clears throat]

1:52:09>> Yes. Thank you.

1:52:14>> On the last item,

1:52:15>> the minutes.

1:52:17Yes, sir.

1:52:18So, I'd like to confirm uh where people

1:52:21are on the minutes. Uh, Commissioner

1:52:23Anderson, you were absent from last

1:52:25month's formal and informal. Do you want

1:52:28to abstain or vote?

1:52:30>> Abstain.

1:52:31>> All right. With regard to the site

1:52:33visits, uh, Commissioners Anderson,

1:52:36Quayar, Mous, and Plumbley, what would

1:52:38you like to do? Are you going to vote or

1:52:40abain?

1:52:42>> Abstain. Abstain. Abstain. And of

1:52:45course, Commissioner Quayar is not here.

1:52:48Um, I was not present at the site visit,

1:52:50but I did familiarize myself with what

1:52:53was discussed by talking with people who

1:52:55were there and the minutes. And I'm

1:52:57satisfied that I can make the motion and

1:52:59cast a vote.

1:53:01So,

1:53:04>> vice chair, you ready?

1:53:06>> I think so. Um, so there is one matter

1:53:10requesting to be withdrawn. That's

1:53:12agenda item one. There are no items

1:53:15requesting deferral for a certain number

1:53:18of days. There are two items requesting

1:53:21indefinite deferral. Agenda items three

1:53:24and eight. There are eight items

1:53:28scheduled to be included on the consent

1:53:30agenda.

1:53:32Agenda items 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, and

1:53:3812. There are three items to be heard.

1:53:42Agenda items 9, 13, and 14. There are

1:53:47several sets of minutes that

1:53:49Commissioner Camp will read.

1:53:54>> Thank you, Vice Chair.

1:53:56>> One question. Are we going right into

1:53:59our retreat following the uh meeting? Is

1:54:02that the plan?

1:54:03>> As long as it begin.

1:54:06>> Okay. Thank you.

1:54:07>> And will will the retreat be televised?

1:54:12It will not.

1:54:12>> It will not.

1:54:13>> Okay.

1:54:14>> And we will be back in here.

1:54:16>> Can I ask why it will not be televised?

1:54:19>> It's just a little bit more complicated

1:54:21in this room and requires additional

1:54:23staff other than just the planning

1:54:25department. And since we were unsure of

1:54:28timing, um we asked not to have it

1:54:36>> and it is but it is open to the public.

1:54:41Hearing will begin at noon. Meeting a

1:54:43journal

1:54:46briefings

1:55:04commission.

1:55:06My name is John.

1:55:10>> My name is John C and I'm the chair of

1:55:12the Virginia Beach Planning Commission.

1:55:14Commissioner Quayar will not be with us

1:55:16today. Uh before we get started, I have

1:55:20asked Commissioner March to lead us in

1:55:22the pledge of allegiance.

1:55:28>> I pledge allegiance to the flag of the

1:55:31United States of America and to the

1:55:33republic for which it stands, one nation

1:55:37under God, indivisible, with liberty and

1:55:40justice for all.

1:55:49At this time, we will introduce the

1:55:50planning commissioners, beginning with

1:55:52the city attorney, followed by the

1:55:54planning administrator, Mrs. Caitlyn

1:55:57Alcock, who will introduce members of

1:55:59staff.

1:56:02>> Tory Eisenberg, deputy city attorney.

1:56:05>> Michael Mach, I have the pleasure of

1:56:06serving the city as the atlarge

1:56:07representative.

1:56:09>> Walter Camp, representing district 1,

1:56:11Kempsville.

1:56:13John Cromwell, District 2, Pungville and

1:56:16Blackwater.

1:56:17>> Hi, Mike Anderson. Represent District

1:56:19Three.

1:56:21>> Katherine Ber, District 4, which

1:56:23includes Virginia Beach Town Center,

1:56:25Burton Station, and all the way up to

1:56:27the Northolk border.

1:56:29>> John Cen, uh, uh, District 9.

1:56:34>> Katherine Skunover, District 5. Brian

1:56:37Plumbley representing beautiful district

1:56:396 from um historic SeaC to the north end

1:56:42of Virginia Beach.

1:56:44>> Susan Hippen, district 7, Centerville.

1:56:47Um Glennwood,

1:56:50Nina Moriani, District 10.

1:56:55>> Caitlyn Alco, planning administrator.

1:56:56Clerking. To my left, we have Brian

1:56:58Harrison and Grace Smith. In the

1:57:00audience, we have planning director

1:57:01Kathy Walsh, deputy director Carrie

1:57:03Bookholt, our zoning administrator

1:57:04Hannah Sabbo. With our planning staff,

1:57:06we have Marshall Coleman, Alexis Bailey,

1:57:08and Ariana Low.

1:57:11>> Thank you very much. Madame Clerk, can

1:57:13you please describe the rules and order

1:57:15of business for today's meeting?

1:57:17>> Yes, Chair Cen. The Virginia Beach

1:57:19Planning Commission takes pride in being

1:57:21fair and courteous to all parties in

1:57:23attendance. It is important that all

1:57:24involved understand how the commission

1:57:26normally conducts its meetings. It is

1:57:28equally important that everyone treat

1:57:29each other and the members of the

1:57:30commission with respect and civility.

1:57:32request that cell phones be put on

1:57:34silent during this meeting. This is an

1:57:36abbreviated explanation of the rules.

1:57:38The complete set of rules is located in

1:57:40the front of the planning commission

1:57:41agenda. Following is the order of

1:57:43business for this public hearing.

1:57:44Withdrawals and deferrals. The

1:57:46chairperson will ask if there are any

1:57:48requests to withdraw or defer an item on

1:57:49the agenda. Consideration of these

1:57:51requests will be made first. Consent

1:57:53agenda. The second order of business is

1:57:55the consideration of the consent agenda

1:57:57which are those items that the planning

1:57:59commission believe are unopposed and

1:58:01which have favorable staff

1:58:02recommendation.

1:58:04Regular agenda. The commission will then

1:58:06proceed with the remaining items on the

1:58:08agenda. When an agenda item has been

1:58:10called, we will recognize the applicant

1:58:11or the representative first. Following

1:58:13the applicant or the representative,

1:58:15inerson speakers will be called next and

1:58:17then the speakers participating via

1:58:18WebEx. Speakers shall be called in order

1:58:21of their registration. Speakers in

1:58:23support or opposition of an item will

1:58:25have three minutes to speak per item

1:58:27unless they are solely representing a

1:58:29large group such as a civic league or

1:58:31homeowners association in which case

1:58:32they will have 10 minutes per item.

1:58:35Individuals representing a group should

1:58:36identify the group of each individual

1:58:38they representing. If a speaker

1:58:40participating via WebEx does not respond

1:58:42or if a technical issue occurs which

1:58:44renders the comments unintelligible,

1:58:46we'll move on to the next speaker or the

1:58:48next order of business. After all

1:58:50speakers have spoken, the applicant may

1:58:51return to the podium and we will have

1:58:53three minutes to offer a rebuttal and

1:58:55answer questions to the commission.

1:58:57Discussion among the commission members

1:58:58will follow. No further public comment

1:59:00will be heard at that point. Please note

1:59:02that the actions taken by the commission

1:59:03today are in the form of a

1:59:04recommendation to the Virginia Beach

1:59:06City Council. The final decision to

1:59:08approve or disapprove an application may

1:59:10be will be made by the city council. The

1:59:12commission thanks you for your

1:59:13attendance and we hope that you

1:59:14experience your experience here today

1:59:16leaves you feeling that you have been

1:59:17heard and treated fairly. Thank you.

1:59:21>> Thank you, Madam Clerk. Next order of

1:59:23business is the consideration of request

1:59:25to withdraw or defer an item.

1:59:27>> Mr. Chairman, um the city of Virginia

1:59:29Beach has requested a withdrawal of the

1:59:32um modification of the map for

1:59:34short-term rental overlay district. And

1:59:36I would move to approve that withdrawal.

1:59:40>> We have a second.

1:59:41>> Second.

1:59:43It has been moved by Commissioner

1:59:44Plumbley and seconded by Commissioner

1:59:47Anderson that this item be withdrawn.

1:59:50Uh are there any one is there anyone

1:59:52abstaining from this item?

1:59:58>> The vote is open.

2:00:11Commissioner Cromwell, your vote.

2:00:14>> My screen's not working on vote day

2:00:17or I, excuse me.

2:00:22>> By recorded vote of 10 to zero, item one

2:00:25has been recommended for withdrawal.

2:00:29[clears throat]

2:00:29>> Our next order of business is

2:00:30consideration of items to be deferred.

2:00:34>> Sorry, Mr. Chair. Sorry to interrupt.

2:00:36>> Please come forward if you have any

2:00:38items to be deferred.

2:00:39>> It's my understanding the two requests

2:00:41for deferral, there's no one here um to

2:00:43represent them on that, but I want to go

2:00:45ahead and make a motion to approve items

2:00:47three and eight for indefinite deferral,

2:00:50which is the request.

2:00:52>> Second.

2:00:54>> It has been moved by Commissioner

2:00:55Plumbley and seconded by Commissioner

2:00:57Ber that these items be withdrawn

2:01:01indefinitely.

2:01:03>> Deferred.

2:01:04>> Deferred. Yes, sir. [clears throat]

2:01:12>> Madam clerk,

2:01:16[clears throat]

2:01:18>> the vote is open

2:01:32by a recorded vote of 10 to zero. Items

2:01:34three and eight have been recommended

2:01:35for indefinite deferral.

2:01:38>> Thank you. The next order of business is

2:01:41the consent agenda and I'm going to turn

2:01:43that over to the vice chair to run this

2:01:45portion of the meeting.

2:01:47>> Thank you, Chair Cen. In addition to the

2:01:50minutes today, we have six items on the

2:01:53consent agenda. These are applications

2:01:56that are recommended for approval by

2:01:58staff and the planning commission

2:01:59concurred. and there are no speakers

2:02:01signed up in opposition.

2:02:04The first item for consideration today

2:02:06are the several sets of minutes of

2:02:08planning commission and I've asked

2:02:10Commissioner Camp to read these into the

2:02:12record.

2:02:13>> Thank you, Madame Vice Chair. This

2:02:15portion of the consent agenda consists

2:02:17of a motion to approve draft minutes as

2:02:20amended by the commission for three

2:02:22planning commission meetings.

2:02:24Specifically, the informal and formal

2:02:27hearings that were held on September 9,

2:02:292026 with Commissioner Anderson

2:02:32abstaining because he was absent and

2:02:35[snorts] the site visits held on October

2:02:378th, 2026 with Commissioners Anderson,

2:02:41Mous, and Plumley abstaining. That

2:02:43completes this item. So moved.

2:02:46>> Second.

2:02:51>> Thank you, Commissioner Camp.

2:02:54The next item on the consent agenda is

2:02:57item two, LBC Ventures LLC. Is there a

2:03:02representative here to speak on this?

2:03:05>> I believe, vice chair, that there is a a

2:03:08condition

2:03:09>> um that the applicant does not want to

2:03:11approve on consent.

2:03:13>> Yeah, we Based on what you all discussed

2:03:15in the informal, if you're putting on

2:03:18consent based on the conditions, we

2:03:19would like it pulled, please.

2:03:21>> So, you do not agree to your client does

2:03:25not agree to the conditions, in which

2:03:27case we will remove you from the consent

2:03:29agenda and have that matter heard.

2:03:31>> Yes, ma'am.

2:03:32>> Thank you, Attorney Bordon. The next

2:03:35item on the consent agenda is item

2:03:39number six

2:03:42and that is Crescent Community Center

2:03:44Corporation. Is there a representative

2:03:46here today to speak on that?

2:03:50>> Welcome back, Attorney Berdon.

2:03:55>> For the record, Eddie Berdon, Virginia

2:03:56Beach attorney representing Crescent

2:03:58Community Center Corporation. I had the

2:04:00privilege of representing them 13 years

2:04:03ago with the original use permit which

2:04:05had a bit of controversy attached to it

2:04:07but they've been very very good

2:04:08neighbors and wellreceived and uh we all

2:04:11the conditions as recommended all 11 of

2:04:13them are acceptable and appreciate

2:04:14Alexis's work on it and appreciate being

2:04:16put on the consent agenda. Thank you.

2:04:19>> Thank you sir. You may be seated. Um is

2:04:22there any opposition to this item being

2:04:24put on the consent agenda?

2:04:27Hearing none. I've asked Commissioner

2:04:29Cromwell to read it into the record.

2:04:32>> This application comes to us at 2480

2:04:35Salem Road.

2:04:38The applicant is requesting a

2:04:40modification of conditions to a

2:04:42conditional use permit for religious use

2:04:45to modify the previously approved

2:04:47concept plan and building elevations on

2:04:50a on this 9.16

2:04:52acre AG2 agricultural district zone

2:04:55parcel located within the inter facility

2:04:58traffic area. The site contains the

2:05:01Crescent Community Center which has

2:05:03operated on this site since 2020. The

2:05:06proposed additions will match the

2:05:08architecture, materials, colors, and

2:05:10height of the existing building. Hearing

2:05:13no opposition to this, we approved it

2:05:16for the consent agenda.

2:05:19>> Thank you, Commissioner Cromwell. The

2:05:21next item on the consent agenda is item

2:05:24number seven, VB Investments LLC. Is

2:05:28there a representative here today?

2:05:32>> Welcome back, Attorney Bordon. Are the

2:05:34conditions acceptable? Yes, they are.

2:05:36It's profered. And I wanted to mention

2:05:38since it was brought up in the informal,

2:05:41my client will be meeting with um

2:05:43housing and we are hopeful that some

2:05:46some of these units will be um

2:05:48affordable under the city's program.

2:05:52>> Appreciate being on the consent agenda.

2:05:53Thank you.

2:05:54>> Thank you. You may be seated. Is there

2:05:56any opposition to this item being added

2:05:58to the consent?

2:06:01Hearing none, I've asked Commissioner

2:06:03Morjani to read it into the record.

2:06:06>> The applicant VB Investments LLC is

2:06:08requesting to reszone the current

2:06:10property located on 700 and 724 Baker

2:06:14Road from B2 Community to conditional

2:06:17A18 apartment district to develop a 23

2:06:20unit multifamily condominium community.

2:06:23We have received no opposition.

2:06:24Therefore, we have placed it on the

2:06:25consent agenda.

2:06:28>> Thank you, Commissioner Morjani.

2:06:31The next items are together agenda items

2:06:3410 and 11 and that is Brandon Aetta. Is

2:06:39there a representative here today?

2:06:46>> Thank you. Please state your name for

2:06:47the record.

2:06:49>> My name is Adrian Iicata. Uh

2:06:50Representative Brandon ITA.

2:06:53>> All right. And um are the conditions

2:06:56acceptable?

2:06:57>> Yes, ma'am.

2:06:58>> Thank you. You may be seated.

2:07:01Is there any opposition to this matter

2:07:03being placed on the consent agenda?

2:07:08Hearing none, I've asked Commissioner

2:07:10Anderson to read these into the record

2:07:12collectively.

2:07:14>> Thank you, Madam Vice Chair. Uh this

2:07:16applicant uh for a conditional use

2:07:19permit for a tattoo parlor and a body

2:07:21piercing located at 481 South Linhaven

2:07:24Road has uh requested a conditional use

2:07:27permit to operate a tattoo parlor and

2:07:29body piercing establishment within a

2:07:311500 ft² unit of an existing B2

2:07:34community business zone shopping center.

2:07:37Business business will employ up to

2:07:39eight employees. the proposed hours for

2:07:41operation from 10 to 10:00 a.m. to 7:00

2:07:44p.m. daily. Primary operating with

2:07:46scheduled appointments. However, limited

2:07:48walk-in service will be offered on

2:07:51designated days. Um there is no

2:07:54opposition to this application. So, we

2:07:56put uh put it on the uh consent agenda.

2:07:59>> Thank you, Commissioner Anderson.

2:08:02The next item is item 12 and that is Zoe

2:08:08Malay Ducas, property owner. Is there a

2:08:12representative here today?

2:08:17>> Welcome. Please state your name for the

2:08:19record.

2:08:20>> My name is Zoe Ducas. I am the property

2:08:22owner.

2:08:23>> Thank you, ma'am. Are the conditions

2:08:25acceptable?

2:08:26>> Yes. Yes, ma'am.

2:08:27>> Thank you. You may be seated.

2:08:30Is there any opposition to this item

2:08:32being placed on the consent agenda?

2:08:36Hearing none, I've asked Commissioner

2:08:38Cromwell to read it into the record.

2:08:41>> This application comes to us at 312

2:08:44Edinburghough Drive.

2:08:46The applicant is requesting a

2:08:48conditional use permit to operate a

2:08:50residential kennel for up to six dogs

2:08:52within an existing 1826

2:08:56square ft single family dwelling on a

2:08:591.09 acre R10 residential district zone

2:09:03parcel. The applicant is seeking

2:09:05approval solely to house her personal

2:09:09pets. No commercial kennel or boarding

2:09:12activities are proposed and no other

2:09:14animals will be present. All dogs will

2:09:17reside within the existing single family

2:09:20dwelling. Dogs will only be outside for

2:09:22bathroom breaks and fresh air. The

2:09:25backyard is fully fenced and includes a

2:09:27second interior fence that provides an

2:09:30additional layer of containment. Hearing

2:09:32no opposition to this, we placed it on

2:09:34the consent agenda.

2:09:36>> Thank you, Commissioner Cromwell.

2:09:39Chair Cen, that was the last item on the

2:09:42consent agenda. The planning commission

2:09:44places the following applications on the

2:09:47consent agenda. The several records of

2:09:50minutes and agenda items 2, 6, 7, 10,

2:09:5611, and 12.

2:09:59I make a motion that these items be

2:10:02approved by consent.

2:10:04>> Second. Um I do abstain from the one um

2:10:07visit, but I was inquiring with four and

2:10:10five was removed off the um consent.

2:10:12>> That's correct.

2:10:13>> Okay. I just wanted to be clear. Thank

2:10:14you.

2:10:15>> If I could just make one point of

2:10:16clarification, item two was also pulled

2:10:18from the consent agenda.

2:10:21>> Oh, thank you for that correction.

2:10:24>> [clears throat]

2:10:25>> So the remaining items on the consent

2:10:27agenda just for clarity items 6 7 10 11

2:10:32and 12

2:10:36>> hearing there has a motion has been made

2:10:39for approval by commissioner ber vice

2:10:41chair ber and seconded by uh

2:10:44commissioner plumley

2:10:46>> the vote is open

2:10:54by a recorded vote of 10 to zero with

2:10:56all affformentioned abstensions. All

2:10:58affformentioned minutes in items 6, 7,

2:11:0110, 11, and 12 have been recommended for

2:11:04approval by consent.

2:11:08If you had an application that was on

2:11:10the consent agenda today, your request

2:11:13would now be scheduled for an upcoming

2:11:15city council meeting. Staff will contact

2:11:18you about the date. For those applicants

2:11:21on the consent agenda, thank you for

2:11:22your participation and you may remain in

2:11:25the meeting either virtually or in

2:11:27person, but you are free to leave.

2:11:34Our next order of business is a regular

2:11:36agenda. The regular agenda will proceed

2:11:38as follows. Applicant will be given up

2:11:42to 10 minutes to present their item. We

2:11:45will then hear from speakers in support

2:11:47and opposition. The application may then

2:11:50return to the podium for up to three

2:11:53minutes for rebuttal and then answer any

2:11:56questions from the commission.

2:11:58Madame clerk, we are ready for the first

2:12:00item. Our first item is item two, LBC

2:12:03Ventures LLC.

2:12:09>> Mr. Chair, members of the commission,

2:12:10for the record, Eddie Berdon, Virginia

2:12:12Beach attorney representing LBC Ventures

2:12:14LLC. Sorry, we had to pull this from the

2:12:16consent agenda, but um it was not not a

2:12:19secret. Um the I'll start very briefly.

2:12:23Um, since it was on the consent agenda,

2:12:25I won't go into all the hardship, but

2:12:27this the one thing that stands out um is

2:12:30this piece of property was

2:12:31[clears throat]

2:12:32uh first created in 1902. Uh roughly,

2:12:37it's existed for half the time that our

2:12:40country has existed. Uh and it's never

2:12:43been subdivided in spite in spite of the

2:12:46rest of the neighborhood around it

2:12:48pretty much having been done so. Um, the

2:12:52only things that's happened was in 1962,

2:12:54the Commonwealth of Virginia took 5,200

2:12:57plus square feet of the property for

2:12:59Northampton Boulevard. And in 1981,

2:13:03the city of Virginia Beach took 3,277

2:13:06square feet of the property for Hook

2:13:09Lane. So, we have a piece of property

2:13:12that's in an existing long existing um

2:13:17one could probably argue historic uh

2:13:20area of the city. Um and it's a small

2:13:24community. Hook Lane is the essentially

2:13:27the only road in the community. It does

2:13:30have a um a culde-sac that's been

2:13:33created in recent years off the

2:13:35northeast corner of uh the neighborhood

2:13:38uh on a Coral Bay court. Uh the the

2:13:43staff report um indicates that the the

2:13:46lots in the neighborhood are 7500 square

2:13:49feet and greater and that's not exactly

2:13:52accurate. There are a number of lots in

2:13:54this neighborhood that are well under

2:13:567,500 square ft. And the three proposed

2:13:59lots here for which there's really only

2:14:02one variance. That's the um lot in the

2:14:04back, but we'll call it two. This the

2:14:06one in the middle would was approved

2:14:08administratively, but that's fine. Um

2:14:11the these lots are bigger than every

2:14:15other lot in the neighborhood except for

2:14:18two to the west and one to the east of

2:14:21the subject property. Um the the

2:14:23[clears throat] lot on Hook Lane is 100

2:14:25ft wide and contains 10,000 square feet.

2:14:28The other two lots are well in excess of

2:14:32uh 10,000 ft in R 7.5.

2:14:35The um

2:14:39the staff report also indicates

2:14:42incorrectly not in the conditions but

2:14:43what Mr. Camp stated was accurate. It

2:14:46does state on page four that my client

2:14:49submitted a plan. it is that showed a

2:14:52driveway coming to the front lot on Hook

2:14:54Lane from the access that will be shared

2:14:57by the two lots in the back. Um and that

2:15:00never happened. Um never been never been

2:15:03such. So um but the conditions one and

2:15:06six are the conditions that we um have a

2:15:08problem with. the um

2:15:12there are a total of 48 homes, not

2:15:15counting the one that was on this one,

2:15:18um in this neighborhood. And of those

2:15:2048,

2:15:2246 do not have a side loading garage or

2:15:26a garage set back 5T from the front of a

2:15:28house that um has a bigger front facade

2:15:32than the garage. Um, [clears throat]

2:15:36Chesapeake Beach, Ocean Park,

2:15:40Cape Story by the Sea, the north end of

2:15:43Virginia Beach, the Holl's Old Beach,

2:15:45Shadow Lawn, Croatan, Birdneck Lake,

2:15:48Sandbridge Beach, neighborhoods in the

2:15:51city that have some of the most valuable

2:15:54properties residential in the city of

2:15:57Virginia Beach. And those neighborhoods

2:16:02have far far more front-loading garages

2:16:05than anything else. And far far more

2:16:09that are not set back 5t from the front

2:16:13with a side that's in that's not the

2:16:15garage in front of it bigger than the

2:16:18garages. I've built myself with my

2:16:21lovely wife two houses, one in Bneeck

2:16:23Lake and one in Croatan. Both of those

2:16:26houses have garages that sit out well in

2:16:29front of the rest of the house. We

2:16:31happen to be on the water in both cases

2:16:33and that's how we chose. And there are

2:16:35other houses in those neighbor like I

2:16:38say it they exist everywhere. I get the

2:16:41aspirational idea

2:16:43but that's not consistent with the this

2:16:46condition and it's not consistent with a

2:16:49lot of neighborhoods on Shore Drive.

2:16:53So that we we do show a twoft set back

2:16:57further for the garage on the front lot

2:17:00than the than the rest of the house. Uh

2:17:03but it's not five and the rest of the

2:17:04house isn't bigger than the garage. The

2:17:08lots are in small lot subdivisions and

2:17:11what I just let read you a list of other

2:17:14of the Sandbridge um they are 10,000

2:17:17square feet and some are larger. That

2:17:19doesn't change the fact that

2:17:21telling someone that their garage has to

2:17:24be five feet back from the front of the

2:17:26house and the rest of the house has to

2:17:27be bigger than the garage. That's an

2:17:29aspiration. And if you're if you're

2:17:31doing a large lot subdivision in the

2:17:35transition area, which I've represented

2:17:37a few, where we actually did exactly

2:17:39that in the guidelines for that

2:17:41neighborhood for more than one. But

2:17:44that's not what we're dealing with here.

2:17:46We're dealing with an existing

2:17:48neighborhood and all all this this idea

2:17:53does is cause greater expense to a

2:17:58developer who has a beautiful house.

2:18:00You've you've got a copy of it. Um to

2:18:02have to go design a house just for this

2:18:04lot. And I'm sorry, but um we do not

2:18:08agree with condition number six. And we

2:18:11don't agree with condition number one

2:18:13because we were never never planning on

2:18:16adding that to the the driveway. And

2:18:19this street doesn't handle anything. You

2:18:22have to be looking for somebody in this

2:18:23neighborhood. It doesn't cut through to

2:18:25any other neighborhood. It just serves

2:18:27the 40 lots, 48 houses that exist there

2:18:31today. So, we would respectfully request

2:18:34that condition number one be that you

2:18:37approve the plan as it's been submitted

2:18:40in and in including what I passed out or

2:18:42what we've passed out which shows the

2:18:43landscaping. So, this lot in the front

2:18:45will have its own yard, its own fenced

2:18:47in yard and we'll put landscaping

2:18:48between the fence and the driveway

2:18:50that'll serve the two in the back. All

2:18:52the other conditions dealing with shared

2:18:54maintenance and all that. Absolutely

2:18:56perfect. Agree with them 100%. Just

2:18:59those two. number six which should be

2:19:02eliminated in art. We ask that you all

2:19:04recommend it with that elimination and

2:19:06then the um condition one just be

2:19:09modified to be the plan that we've

2:19:11submitted and the only plan that we've

2:19:13submitted. Be happy to answer any

2:19:15questions.

2:19:17>> Are there any questions? I don't we

2:19:18don't have anybody else to speak, do we?

2:19:20>> No one else to speak.

2:19:21>> Okay. So

2:19:22>> I do have questions.

2:19:24>> Um Mr. Remember, Don, as members of the

2:19:27bar, I think we should recognize the

2:19:30passing of Mark Styles. We've not had

2:19:32the chance to talk about it. I was with

2:19:34Judge Lily yesterday. It was such a busy

2:19:37and intense hearing. I didn't have an

2:19:39opportunity to express my condolences,

2:19:41but I want to do that for him, his

2:19:43family.

2:19:44>> Oh,

2:19:45>> the department here that he led for so

2:19:47many years, and the city. So, that's

2:19:49just I didn't want to miss that

2:19:51opportunity.

2:19:52>> Thank you, Mr. way and you're spot on

2:19:56and there there and with less is

2:20:02wonderful person, wonderful judge and

2:20:04did a lot a lot of work with uh with

2:20:07less sandbridge beach and a lot of other

2:20:08other things. Um and Mark is every bit

2:20:13as good a human being if not better than

2:20:15than judge and that's and that but

2:20:17they're in the same they're in the same

2:20:19league. He was one one wonderful and and

2:20:23unfortunately, you know, we lost him way

2:20:26way too soon.

2:20:26>> Very young. Very young.

2:20:28>> But thank you for that. I I appreciate

2:20:30the opportunity.

2:20:32>> I I just wanted to get clear. When I

2:20:34went to the community, it looked like

2:20:36most of the homes had front driveways.

2:20:39Is that is that

2:20:40>> driveways and front garages and and

2:20:44there's actually I counted 15 that don't

2:20:48have garages at all

2:20:50>> and and so it this plan appeared to be

2:20:53to me more in line and less of a

2:20:56deviation than what the city's asking

2:20:57for with the conditions. That was how it

2:20:59appeared to me.

2:21:00>> Correct. There are there are a grand

2:21:02total of two out of 48 houses that have

2:21:06a side loading garage. One is the house

2:21:10next door to this property on the west

2:21:13side where they have it was a beautiful

2:21:15it is a beautiful brick home for which

2:21:17they have added a garage on the

2:21:20northwest corner that was an add-on and

2:21:23then there's a a house on the corner of

2:21:28um Hook Lane and I I they may call it

2:21:31Hook Court but it's the to the east that

2:21:34there's a lot on the corner that has a a

2:21:36newer home for that neighbor.

2:21:37neighborhood. Um, and it has a side

2:21:40loading garage, but it's a side corner

2:21:42lot, so it's easy to do that.

2:21:43>> And, and you've put on the record the

2:21:45only changes you need to those

2:21:46conditions.

2:21:47>> That That is okay.

2:21:50>> Thank you,

2:21:51>> Commissioner Camp.

2:21:53>> Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, Attorney

2:21:55Bordon, my question is not for you. It's

2:21:57a question for staff.

2:21:59>> Actually, two questions. Would you be

2:22:02able to tell me when the shore drive

2:22:04design guidelines were adopted?

2:22:09And the related question, which we can

2:22:12look into while we're waiting on that

2:22:14answer, is roughly when were most of the

2:22:17homes here built?

2:22:22>> Uh, good afternoon, commissioners. Uh,

2:22:24for the record, Hank Morrison,

2:22:26comprehensive planning administrator. I

2:22:27don't have the answer to number two, but

2:22:28the design guidelines were uh adopted by

2:22:31council in 2002.

2:22:34>> Thank you, sir.

2:22:34>> Thank you.

2:22:38And with regard to roughly the age of

2:22:41the other homes in the community,

2:22:44>> we're looking for that right now.

2:22:46[snorts]

2:22:47>> It's going to be a minute.

2:22:48>> All right. May I have a followup with

2:22:50Mr. Morrison?

2:22:52>> Sure.

2:22:56>> Mr. Morrison, I know that this

2:22:59particular plan was adopted prior to

2:23:01your arrival uh as our city's

2:23:03comprehensive planning administrator,

2:23:05but would you be able to tell us was the

2:23:08intention of those design guidelines to

2:23:13bring about change in the community

2:23:16versus what had been created organically

2:23:19prior to the adoption of the guidelines?

2:23:23I would I would say that the design

2:23:25guidelines were are an aspirational uh

2:23:29viewpoint into what the community was

2:23:31hoping to achieve as the development

2:23:33continues in the future.

2:23:36>> So what I'm trying to do here with these

2:23:37two questions is to reconcile what we

2:23:40see today and attorney Bordon's comment

2:23:43that what's being asked for in this

2:23:45particular application doesn't align

2:23:48with the rest of what we may see. If the

2:23:50homes were created before the adoption

2:23:52of the guidelines, naturally I wouldn't

2:23:55necessarily expect them to look like

2:23:57what the guidelines say. If they were

2:23:59built more recently at contemporaneously

2:24:03what the guidelines are after, then yes,

2:24:05I would expect them to look more like

2:24:07what the guidelines call for. And that's

2:24:09what I'm trying to understand here. if

2:24:12this application is one more in line

2:24:14with a pattern, although we don't see

2:24:16too many in this older neighborhood, or

2:24:18if this is an exception.

2:24:21Thank you, Mr. Morrison. That's all I

2:24:23had for you. Thank you.

2:24:23>> Thank you.

2:24:24>> Okay. So, we've been able to pull at

2:24:27least a handful of homes and it does

2:24:29range from the 1940s to 2019, more on

2:24:33the 1940s side.

2:24:35So, in general, Director Walsh, would it

2:24:38be reasonably accurate to say that a

2:24:43substantial portion of this neighborhood

2:24:44as we see it today was built out prior

2:24:47to the adoption of the guidelines?

2:24:49>> Yes, sir.

2:24:50>> Okay. Thank you for that clarification.

2:24:58>> Okay. Commissioner Scoonover,

2:25:00>> I move that we approve this application

2:25:03with the request that uh Attorney Berdon

2:25:06requ uh asked us for removing number six

2:25:09and modifying number one to correspond

2:25:11with his application.

2:25:12>> Second.

2:25:14It has been moved by Commissioner

2:25:17Scoover and seconded by Commissioner

2:25:18Plumbley that we approve this item as is

2:25:21the desire of the applicant.

2:25:23>> Is there any time for discussion?

2:25:31If appropriate at this time under

2:25:34discussion, I would like to ask the

2:25:36staff um as I understand it, all

2:25:39applications are run through our traffic

2:25:41department, and I assume there was a

2:25:43reason that they didn't want this side

2:25:46entrance on Hook Lane. I wonder if uh

2:25:50staff could speak to that.

2:25:58And I don't believe that this was a

2:26:00traffic comment. This was based on the

2:26:02shore drive corridor guidelines.

2:26:06>> Is that correct, Hank?

2:26:07>> That's correct. Um so the design

2:26:10guidelines when there's a development of

2:26:12more than one home, they it's encourages

2:26:16the sharing of a driveway. And so um

2:26:19having multiple driveways also creates

2:26:22conflict points for vehicles and

2:26:23pedestrians. So trying to reduce the

2:26:25conflict points and also reduce the

2:26:27amount of impervious surface on the

2:26:29site. That's where that uh suggestion

2:26:32came from.

2:26:33>> Thank you. I appreciate that.

2:26:36[snorts]

2:26:37>> Any further discussion?

2:26:43>> Are we ready for the vote?

2:26:45>> The vote is open.

2:26:52>> [laughter]

2:26:58>> chair cost in your vote.

2:27:00>> It's not showing.

2:27:03>> I can take a verbal vote.

2:27:06>> I'll vote. Yeah. I

2:27:15[snorts]

2:27:23By a recorded vote of 9 to one, item 2,

2:27:26LBC Ventures LLC has been recommended

2:27:28for approval as modified.

2:27:31>> Thank you all very much for your

2:27:32patience and hope everybody has a

2:27:34wonderful Thanksgiving and doesn't get

2:27:36tricked too much. Thank you.

2:27:43>> Our next items are items four and five.

2:27:46Corporate Landing Parkway Development

2:27:47LLC.

2:27:52[clears throat]

2:27:57>> Please state your name for the record,

2:27:58sir.

2:27:59>> Yes. Good morning, chairman, members of

2:28:01the commission. My name is Jerry Harris

2:28:02with Hangar Law in Virginia Beach here

2:28:04on behalf of my client TST Roofing and

2:28:07Glazing for items four and five. Uh we

2:28:10stand before you today asking for

2:28:11approval of two items. First a

2:28:13modification of profers and then also a

2:28:15conditional use permit. The reason these

2:28:17have to come in this order is because

2:28:18under the current profered conditions

2:28:21for this corporate landing business park

2:28:24uh there is an exception in the profers

2:28:25for bulk storage. Uh in discussions with

2:28:28the city the operation that uh TST

2:28:31roofing glazing is a multifaceted

2:28:33general contractor here in the city of

2:28:35Virginia Beach that's growing their

2:28:36operations. Um the purpose of this

2:28:39storage yard is to support that

2:28:40operation. and they're going to put

2:28:42their, you know, equipment and

2:28:43materials, the things that they use to

2:28:45go around the Commonwealth of Virginia

2:28:47down to North Carolina and up and down

2:28:48the eastern seabboard to store it there

2:28:50as an accessory use as we argued uh to

2:28:53part of their property. Um the city

2:28:55didn't agree with that position and

2:28:56therefore we now go through this process

2:28:58to modify the profers to try and allow

2:29:00them to use quote unquote bulk storage

2:29:01at this location. It's not bulk storage

2:29:04in the sense that there's going to be

2:29:05storage of third party items for profit.

2:29:08It's not going to be wrecked cars. it's

2:29:10truly going to be items that support

2:29:12their business operation. Uh and the

2:29:15reason it has to come in twofold is

2:29:16because we first have to modify only

2:29:18condition four of those um commerce park

2:29:21requirements. We've been through the

2:29:23economic development authority. We've

2:29:25gotten their unanimous approval for the

2:29:27concepts that you have on your staff

2:29:29reports that you'll see here. Uh you'll

2:29:31notice the warehouse space first and

2:29:32their office buildings. Um that'll be a

2:29:34two-story building that supports their

2:29:36day-to-day operations. And then you'll

2:29:38see just behind it is what we've labeled

2:29:39as the lay down yard. That's where

2:29:41you'll see this quote unquote bulk

2:29:43storage happening. Uh the intention of

2:29:45the applicant and my client is to have

2:29:47none of this visible from the roadway.

2:29:49You heard during your informal uh

2:29:50session some questions about the

2:29:52fencing. Uh that fencing has gone

2:29:54through economic development. They're

2:29:56perforated metal fencing. It's a nice

2:29:57high quality fence and we're going to

2:29:59put those where you can see it from any

2:30:01of the passing roadways. Uh and then

2:30:04from there um you'll see that there's

2:30:06also the vinyl clad chain link fencing

2:30:08on the back of the property and on the

2:30:10back of the property we don't believe

2:30:11that will be visible. And then also in

2:30:13your plan you'll see if you go back to

2:30:15the other page um where those are going

2:30:18to happen but most importantly all the

2:30:20vegetation that exists on the property

2:30:22that is behind the property that's a 75

2:30:24ft vegetative buffer as well as wetlands

2:30:27behind it will also remain. Um, so what

2:30:29we're hoping is that slight

2:30:31modification, if we go back to the other

2:30:33slide of the fencing, that blue line

2:30:34that you see, it really is going to be

2:30:36visible from the roadway. And then also

2:30:38there's going to be substantial

2:30:39vegetation between that location um and

2:30:42to the rear. So with those things in

2:30:44mind, we are hoping that with the growth

2:30:46of this business that employs 160 folks

2:30:49uh within our community, it's a growing

2:30:51operation. They've received the benefit

2:30:53of an EDIP grant to help the growth of

2:30:55this business. um we're in um we're in a

2:30:59good position with this property to stay

2:31:01on that corner that you see there and um

2:31:04enjoy the growth of a new business in

2:31:06this community. So, I would ask for your

2:31:07support of this application and happy to

2:31:09answer any questions that you may have.

2:31:11I do understand it was pulled today

2:31:13because there are two speakers that have

2:31:14signed up. I will confess I haven't had

2:31:16a chance to speak with them. I don't

2:31:17know what their um opposition may or may

2:31:20not be to this application. So, I'll

2:31:21just reserve the time to respond to that

2:31:23at the appropriate time. But otherwise,

2:31:25thank you for your consideration.

2:31:27>> Thank you,

2:31:29Madam Clerk. Call the speakers.

2:31:31>> Our first speaker is John Newwell.

2:31:35Um, I don't have the card yet for the

2:31:37second speaker.

2:31:46>> Hi there.

2:31:47>> Uh, please state your name for the

2:31:48record.

2:31:49>> Uh, my name is John.

2:31:52Um, how how much time is allotted?

2:31:54Again, I apologize.

2:31:55>> Three minutes.

2:31:56>> Okay. [gasps] Um, I would like to

2:32:00preface my written statement with an

2:32:01apology for any nervousness or errors in

2:32:03my speech as well as I was unclear of

2:32:06the original proposal. I think I

2:32:09misinterpreted some things. And as well,

2:32:11this is my first time publicly speaking.

2:32:13So, I would like to thank the board for

2:32:14their patience and this opportunity to

2:32:16speak.

2:32:18So, I saw a sign, a bright orange sign

2:32:22about one month ago today. It was

2:32:25probably outside of uh one of my

2:32:27favorite places to go recreationally. Um

2:32:30I don't know if anyone here has seen the

2:32:31photos, but it is a nice lake with a

2:32:34grass field around it. Um it's a very

2:32:36nice spot.

2:32:38And what I saw on this sign made me

2:32:41especially upset to be honest.

2:32:44um so upset and encouraged me to speak

2:32:47out publicly for the first time, like I

2:32:50said. And in bold handwriting, it stated

2:32:53that the city had plans to repurpose

2:32:56this beautiful, beautiful sight of

2:32:58nature into a bulk storage yard. And to

2:33:01me personally, the idea to put a storage

2:33:03facility on General Booth Boulevard, in

2:33:05my opinion, is a big mistake by our

2:33:06local city government. Already the

2:33:08street is oversaturated with many

2:33:12storage units already. However, these

2:33:13ones are for profit. Um, new stores

2:33:16being constructed, the new McDonald's,

2:33:19even the selling of Malden Bros., it

2:33:21shows that our community is losing what

2:33:24makes it so special in place of profit

2:33:27in my opinion. And

2:33:30I believe that our community should be

2:33:32put first, not private interest. Like I

2:33:35said, there are many, I guess, growing

2:33:38places for income, and I think that is

2:33:40good. But I will say if this type of

2:33:42development continues in place of

2:33:44putting our people first, I think

2:33:47honestly this entire area will become

2:33:49overdeveloped and just gray, dull, and

2:33:53just not what it once was. And I don't

2:33:56think this is the naivity of my youth

2:34:00speaking. I think I've seen firsthand

2:34:02the real experience. Um, I've seen as

2:34:05more development comes, I've seen less

2:34:06people outside, more people staying

2:34:09indoors, just overall it's not really

2:34:12good for our community.

2:34:14And I know what I said sounds very big,

2:34:17very scary. And while it is a

2:34:19hypothetical, I think it starts right

2:34:21here. Every decision and change has an

2:34:24impact, small or big, for better or for

2:34:26worse. So, I propose a very big change

2:34:29for the benefit of our city. And my

2:34:32proposal is instead of building

2:34:33something adverse to our community to

2:34:36enhance what's already there. By my

2:34:39account, there is, like I stated before,

2:34:41many storage facilities already and

2:34:45not enough [snorts] nature, not enough

2:34:47areas for our community to interact

2:34:49together. So, for my proposal, I was

2:34:52thinking to turn the land already there

2:34:56into a nice park, um, a good area for

2:35:00people to interact with each other and

2:35:02stay connected instead of serving

2:35:04private interest. Once again, [gasps]

2:35:07um,

2:35:07>> thank you, sir.

2:35:09>> Your time has expired.

2:35:10>> Yes, sir.

2:35:10>> Uh does anyone have any questions for

2:35:13the speaker?

2:35:14>> May I just ask real quick? Um, this is

2:35:16my district. Um, are you talking about

2:35:20uh you reckon some water? Are you

2:35:23talking about right off of corporate

2:35:24landing? There's water right over here.

2:35:26Is that what you're looking at?

2:35:27>> Yes. Yes. Yes.

2:35:27>> Okay. Um,

2:35:28>> if I saw the zoning right, I thought the

2:35:31lines cut into there, but I could have

2:35:32been wrong. I apologize.

2:35:33>> No, it's okay. Are you aware that this

2:35:35is not exactly on Virginia Duth

2:35:37Boulevard? It's actually back a little

2:35:39bit. So, I don't think you're going to

2:35:40see this from the road. Do you Are you

2:35:41aware of that?

2:35:43>> I was not actually.

2:35:44>> Okay. Well, that's why I want to make

2:35:45sure you knew because I don't think it's

2:35:46quite where you think it's going to be.

2:35:48So, I'm not sure that it's as much of a

2:35:49concern for you, but it might be.

2:35:51>> So, if you look up there on the map,

2:35:54>> um Oh, let's use this. This is my

2:35:55favorite thing ever. I've been wanting

2:35:56to use this. So, you see right there is

2:35:59General Booth Boulevard.

2:36:00>> Yes.

2:36:01>> And this is where that brewery is. It's

2:36:03going to be right back over here. So,

2:36:05you're I don't think you're going to see

2:36:06it from the road. Really?

2:36:08>> I mean, I don't think it's um about

2:36:10visibility. I think it's what it could

2:36:12be used for instead. not really if it's

2:36:14visible or not.

2:36:15>> Does it does it impact your view and in

2:36:18that it's part of his current business

2:36:20and he's trying to expand just to have a

2:36:22space to put the the items he's using

2:36:24for his business. Did that change your

2:36:26view as opposed to it being a for-profit

2:36:28storage facility?

2:36:30>> Um I believe so. Yes. Um in a way, like

2:36:33I said before, I do apologize. I thought

2:36:35it was another um rental storage unit

2:36:38place. Um, I did misinterpret that, but

2:36:40I still believe that that land could be

2:36:42repurposed for something more bettering

2:36:45and nurturing for our community.

2:36:46>> Gotcha. I'm so glad you came today and

2:36:48don't be nervous. Never. [laughter]

2:36:51We all get very nervous speaking public.

2:36:52So, you did a really good job.

2:36:54>> Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

2:36:56>> Any further questions?

2:36:58>> Commissioner Malt,

2:37:00>> I'd like to thank you for coming today.

2:37:01Um, first time public speaking is very

2:37:05nerve-wracking. Uh I remember my first

2:37:07time and I did not do nearly as well as

2:37:10you and I think you did wonderful. I

2:37:12think your aspirations and your goals

2:37:14are wonderful. Um, I think that this

2:37:17[snorts] piece of property, we have to

2:37:19balance uh the

2:37:22private property's ability to do

2:37:25something as if it was a public public

2:37:28property would make it a little bit

2:37:30easier for us to to have some uh wiggle

2:37:33room on what we can and can't allow

2:37:35there,

2:37:36>> of course. But as far as a private

2:37:38property owner and his ability to do

2:37:40things,

2:37:41>> they've come through the process one

2:37:42time and now they're asking from a

2:37:46private property standpoint to to modify

2:37:48it.

2:37:49>> Okay.

2:37:49>> Um so that they can further their

2:37:51business on their own on their own

2:37:53property.

2:37:54>> And I just wanted to make that a little

2:37:55bit clear because

2:37:56>> okay,

2:37:57>> the the private property aspect and then

2:37:59the public property aspect, I think

2:38:01those aspirational goals are right on

2:38:04target for what most people want. um

2:38:06continue doing what you're doing, stay

2:38:08involved. All right.

2:38:09>> Um and and stay encouraged to

2:38:12>> to talk about the things that you find

2:38:14most important in our city because we

2:38:15need more people like that. So, thank

2:38:17you.

2:38:17>> Thank you for your time.

2:38:19>> Thank you. You may be seated.

2:38:21>> Our final speaker is Brian Many.

2:38:37Good afternoon. My name is Brian Mance.

2:38:39I'm a local resident and got the notice

2:38:42of this meeting for this property

2:38:46at the end of September. Um,

2:38:49my concerns were the words bulk storage.

2:38:53Um, I live within the area that can be

2:38:56affected by this. I also work in this

2:38:59area. My company recently bought a

2:39:01property that is actually on your

2:39:03picture. And I know we went through

2:39:06several hoops trying to get things done

2:39:07that we could not do, things that we

2:39:09can't have outside of the building, we

2:39:12can't store things. Um, and then yeah,

2:39:17right up there on the corner on the

2:39:18lake. Um, so I understand corporate

2:39:21landing and I think the aspiration of

2:39:23corporate landing is for

2:39:26less industrialized storage.

2:39:29um

2:39:32changing the rules for what you can put

2:39:33on the property. I understand sometimes

2:39:35there's a need, but

2:39:38the bulk storage at one point once this

2:39:40is changed, some companies may not be

2:39:42here for too long for as long as they

2:39:44expect or they may move and grow and

2:39:46have to expand further beyond what they

2:39:49can do here and go to a bigger site.

2:39:51then this this item has already been

2:39:54changed and the next guy can come in and

2:39:56bulk store something else that we don't

2:39:58want in the neighborhood that isn't as

2:40:00pretty. Um,

2:40:03another item I noticed is the picture he

2:40:05showed of the fence. To me, visually it

2:40:08looked like a chain link fence.

2:40:12As a resident, I would not want to look

2:40:14at that ever. I hate chain link fences.

2:40:17How many of you have seen a chain link

2:40:19fence that looks nice?

2:40:21I don't think any of you have and I

2:40:23don't think any of the residents in this

2:40:25area want to look at another chain link

2:40:27fence. Um,

2:40:30that's pretty much all I had is

2:40:33[laughter]

2:40:34doesn't seem to fit what I think this

2:40:36area is. Thank you. Uh, any questions?

2:40:44Thank you, sir. You may be seated.

2:40:49the applicant like to come back to

2:40:51rebutt.

2:40:58>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I'll share

2:41:00the commission's uh support of Mr.

2:41:02Newell's exercising of his first

2:41:04amendment right. That's always nice to

2:41:05see a young man come and do those

2:41:06things. I think his uh confusion may

2:41:08have been clarified in some way about

2:41:10the nature of what is being proposed at

2:41:12this uh location. Uh, but on to Mr.

2:41:15Mance raising some concerns about these

2:41:18um this particular area. I think it's

2:41:20important to to recognize the profers

2:41:22first. This is going to be very limited.

2:41:24It's only going to be limited to storage

2:41:26of the material, supplies, and tools,

2:41:28equipment of this business. By its

2:41:31nature, there is specifically in the

2:41:34proper no third party storage. No

2:41:36portion of the property will be operated

2:41:38as a standalone storage business or

2:41:39storage facilities for persons other

2:41:41than the entities and the owners that

2:41:43occupy that particular place. And then

2:41:45in no circumstance will the items placed

2:41:47in that exterior storage ever exceed the

2:41:49height of this fence. So if you are a

2:41:52lay person, I would suggest you walk by

2:41:54there, you wouldn't really even know

2:41:55that it's being used as a bulk storage

2:41:57yard, which kind of goes back to my

2:41:58first point about I would like to call

2:42:00it an accessory use. I can't do that

2:42:02because of the way that this city code

2:42:04is structured. But under those

2:42:05circumstances, you also have the benefit

2:42:07of 75 foot landscape buffer followed by

2:42:10wetlands where this chain link fence is

2:42:12shown. And while I do uh agree that

2:42:14sometimes chainlink fences uh are not

2:42:16the preferred aesthetic look, in this

2:42:19circumstance, it's really an obstructed

2:42:20view of a chain link fence that also

2:42:22includes that black vinyl wrapping and

2:42:25those slats. Um but with that, we would

2:42:27ask you to still consider that the uh

2:42:29modification of propers and the

2:42:31conditions uh proposed for our um layown

2:42:34yard or bulk swordy yard are appropriate

2:42:36and we'd ask for that approval.

2:42:38>> Happy to answer any final questions.

2:42:40>> Any questions? Commissioner Camp.

2:42:42>> Thank you. Thank you, sir. Maybe you can

2:42:45clarify for us what I was not able to

2:42:48get clarity on during the informal. When

2:42:51we compare the diagram that is being

2:42:54displayed right now with page number 27

2:42:57at the bottom corner, this is the one

2:43:00that has the colored boundaries showing

2:43:02different types of fencing. I'm going to

2:43:05be referring to that top area that is in

2:43:07blue. And if we compare that to the

2:43:10other diagram, I believe it's page

2:43:12number 28. Yes, thank you. That shows a

2:43:17different shape with a different

2:43:18boundary uh extending up into the 70

2:43:21foot five. Please help me understand

2:43:24what's going on here.

2:43:25>> Sure. Uh Commissioner Camp, thank you

2:43:26for that question. And Mr. Mr. Chair, I

2:43:28will let you know this has been a

2:43:29process that's been underway for about a

2:43:31year now between economic development uh

2:43:34my client and then through that process

2:43:36we have to get the economic development

2:43:38support. During process of economic

2:43:40development we have to meet the business

2:43:42park guidelines. In order to do that we

2:43:44had to prepare these site plans. Uh as

2:43:47part of the economic development

2:43:49discussion there was an initial

2:43:50discussion that the 75 ft boundary could

2:43:52be waved. Then during staff review for

2:43:56this commission, it was raised that

2:43:58there is an encroachment into that 75-

2:44:00ft buffer. So what you're seeing there

2:44:02is a legacy site plan that was approved

2:44:05and seen by economic development that

2:44:07does encroach in that small portion into

2:44:09the 75 ft buffer. Staff then noted that

2:44:12and requested the addition of condition

2:44:14five, saying, "Well, you can't really do

2:44:16that until you properly vacate that

2:44:19portion through site plan." And we're

2:44:21here to tell you we're fine with that

2:44:22condition. In fact, I would even tell

2:44:24you that we've already asked our

2:44:25engineers to contemplate a new site plan

2:44:27for when we go through that to just pull

2:44:28that 75 feet back to handle it. So, it

2:44:31is an inconsistency. You're right to

2:44:33point it out, but it's really explained

2:44:34by the length of the process and the

2:44:36number of iterations, particularly

2:44:37having to go before both the economic

2:44:39development and this commission.

2:44:41>> So, since

2:44:43the final word on this is with city

2:44:45council, do you have the ability to

2:44:48clean this up in a finalized site plan?

2:44:51That will be the site plan that

2:44:52accompanies this through city council

2:44:55review.

2:44:56>> Yes. And uh in our discussions with the

2:44:57city attorney's office, we do have some

2:44:59other cleanup work that we have to do

2:45:00related to the subdivision that's

2:45:02happening over here because as you may

2:45:04know or may not know, separate from this

2:45:06application and maybe to Mr. New's um

2:45:08pleasant surprise. My client's also

2:45:10helping the city through a cost

2:45:11participation agreement to build at

2:45:14their expense a new storm water

2:45:15retention pond in the vacant portion

2:45:17next to it. So, as you can imagine,

2:45:19Commissioner Camp, there's a lot of work

2:45:20to still be done with that, and we'll

2:45:21we'll clean all that up all at once.

2:45:24>> All right. Very good.

2:45:26>> Thank you.

2:45:26>> Um, can one other question for you, sir?

2:45:28Pardon me, still recognized.

2:45:32>> The other point that I brought up in the

2:45:33informal was that this parcel came

2:45:36through for review not terribly long

2:45:38ago, and at that time, the particular

2:45:41condition to which you take exception uh

2:45:44was imposed. uh and all of the same

2:45:46parties looked at this and felt that

2:45:48that was the right way to govern this

2:45:50area that bulk storage would not be

2:45:52permitted on this site.

2:45:54Why now should these same bodies

2:45:57reconsider a decision that was made not

2:45:59too long ago in the other direction?

2:46:02What's the what's the reason?

2:46:04>> Thank you, Commissioner and Mr. Chair. I

2:46:06will say that as part of this body's um

2:46:08good work, every application has to come

2:46:10on its own merits. I won't speak to

2:46:12where maybe the pitfalls were on the

2:46:14last application. I do think ours is

2:46:16materially different specifically

2:46:18because of the limitations being offered

2:46:20by profer and condition not being

2:46:22visible at all from the roadway below

2:46:24the fence line. Um having a business

2:46:26that's going to be two stories tall, you

2:46:28know, as I mentioned sort of tongue and

2:46:29cheek. I would defy a lay person to sort

2:46:31of even walk by this and even know that

2:46:33it was a bulk storage yard. It's not

2:46:35another one of these mini storage units.

2:46:37It's just so different than what we

2:46:40normally see in these bulk storage

2:46:41applications that I think that

2:46:44those material differences do carry the

2:46:46day. And what's different because I can

2:46:48also appreciate that you don't want to

2:46:49have one application come for bulk

2:46:51storage and say no and then the next one

2:46:53because then it looks like you're

2:46:54picking winners and losers as opposed to

2:46:56you know perhaps the diligent work that

2:46:58you all do each day. So I think the

2:47:00profers combined with the conditions

2:47:02that we've agreed to already would allay

2:47:04any fears that this is sort of opening a

2:47:07can of worms for this whole business

2:47:08park. You also have the benefit of

2:47:10economic development. Economic

2:47:12development enforces these conditions

2:47:15through the business park and their

2:47:16development guidelines. We've already

2:47:18been through that process successfully

2:47:19with the unanimous support. So I hope

2:47:21that will give this commission

2:47:23confidence that this is the right

2:47:25application to accept our conditions.

2:47:27Thank you, sir.

2:47:30>> Any further discussion?

2:47:31>> Okay.

2:47:32>> I just wanted to clarify because I think

2:47:34the gentleman behind might not have

2:47:35heard what you'd said earlier. You are

2:47:37going to have things like bushes and

2:47:38whatnot. So, you're not really going to

2:47:40see the the fence that he's concerned

2:47:42about. Correct.

2:47:43>> That's correct. If we look here on your

2:47:45um design outline, there's a hard black

2:47:48line that goes around where you see the

2:47:50fencing is going to be. All existing

2:47:52vegetation behind that fence line is

2:47:54going to be undisturbed.

2:47:57And this other question is just for

2:47:58staff because I know that he was

2:47:59concerned that if they went away,

2:48:02somebody else could come and put bulk

2:48:03storage. They would still have to go

2:48:04through a process of approval for what

2:48:06was put there specifically. Is that

2:48:08correct for staff?

2:48:15[laughter]

2:48:16>> Sorry, it wouldn't turn on. They would

2:48:17still need to comply with these

2:48:18conditions. So, it's possible that a new

2:48:20business could move in and still comply

2:48:22with these conditions,

2:48:23>> but it would still go through the

2:48:24regular process. So it would be seen by

2:48:25other people and so forth. It wouldn't

2:48:27just happen. Okay. I just want to make

2:48:28sure for his for his own benefit. Thank

2:48:30you.

2:48:33>> Any [snorts] other questions?

2:48:35>> No, but I'll go ahead and make a motion

2:48:36if I may.

2:48:37>> Yes, ma'am.

2:48:38>> I move to approve the application.

2:48:40Second.

2:48:41>> It has been moved by Commissioner

2:48:44Skunover and seconded by Commissioner

2:48:46Morani that we approve this item.

2:48:51>> The vote is open.

2:49:01>> [clears throat]

2:49:05>> Commissioner Anderson,

2:49:08>> mine's messing up.

2:49:10>> Mine's messing up, too. So, uh, yay.

2:49:15By a recorded vote of 10 to zero, items

2:49:18four and five, corporate Landing

2:49:19Development LLC have been recommended

2:49:21for approval.

2:49:25Our next item is item nine, just subpina

2:49:28police and Marissa Corsel.

2:49:38>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was it was

2:49:41timed out, I guess, when others hadn't

2:49:43timed out. Okay.

2:49:44>> Good afternoon.

2:49:47>> Please state your name for the record.

2:49:48>> Marissa Corsali.

2:49:51>> Thank you.

2:49:52>> Um I'm not too sure. What

2:49:56did you want me to How do I do this? I'm

2:49:58sorry.

2:50:00>> Just tell us what you're trying to do.

2:50:02>> I'm proposing a inh home daycare

2:50:05um running out of my mother's house

2:50:09and it's going to be a monastery style

2:50:11daycare. um a thoughtfully prepared

2:50:15space where children can learn

2:50:16independently, respectfully. Um

2:50:20and it's going to be an organized

2:50:23environment, nothing too chaotic. Um

2:50:26where children could learn in a loving

2:50:29environment and thrive. Um

2:50:34yeah,

2:50:36I also have three letters of support. I

2:50:39would have got him got more but I ran

2:50:41out of time.

2:50:43>> Did do you want me to give that to

2:50:45someone?

2:50:47>> I was already asked a question. Madam

2:50:49clerk, do we have any speakers for this

2:50:51item?

2:50:51>> There are no speakers for this item.

2:50:54>> Okay. Are there any questions? Any other

2:50:57questions for the applicant?

2:51:00>> Hi, thanks for coming in. Um, I do have

2:51:02a question on one of the pictures of the

2:51:05backyard.

2:51:07uh shows the steps and this is your

2:51:09parents house?

2:51:10>> Yes, sir.

2:51:10>> Okay. Um and

2:51:15with the age of the kids that would be

2:51:18uh there

2:51:20uh we I would like to get a uh

2:51:24clarification and look at the steps on

2:51:27the back porch that they are out of uh

2:51:30code. Uh because there as as far as I

2:51:33can tell there are not there is not a

2:51:35railing on those steps unless it's on

2:51:37the left you just can't see it. So I

2:51:39would be worried that there are there is

2:51:42not a railing coming down those steps

2:51:44because there's five steps which would

2:51:46be at least 35 36 inches high.

2:51:48>> You're correct. There isn't a railing

2:51:50but we're willing to I would not um move

2:51:54forward with approving this application

2:51:56on my opinion until that is uh done.

2:52:13So, uh, so you're asking her to to do

2:52:16that before

2:52:18>> I would I would just like to make that a

2:52:20stipulation in the profits somehow.

2:52:25>> We were aware that we needed the gate.

2:52:28Um,

2:52:28>> well, the gates the gates completely

2:52:30different. This is a this is a height

2:52:33hazard and a code hazard,

2:52:34>> right? I would have addressed that if I

2:52:36knew that was a concern, but

2:52:38>> but yeah, if we can put that as a

2:52:41>> we can certainly add that as a condition

2:52:44that would just need to be stated in in

2:52:45any motion.

2:52:47>> Okay.

2:52:49Any other questions? Commissioner K.

2:52:51>> Yes. Hi, Miss Corsali. Thank you for

2:52:53coming down today. Um, I represent

2:52:56District 1, which is where this site is

2:52:59located, and I've been contacted uh by a

2:53:02number of the residents in addition to

2:53:04the letters of objection that we

2:53:06received. So, I'd like to ask you a

2:53:08couple of questions about your proposed

2:53:10business.

2:53:11>> Um,

2:53:13first, do you reside at the home?

2:53:15>> I do not. It's my mother's home.

2:53:17>> Okay. Number two, um, with regard to

2:53:21your business model, you are seeking

2:53:24approval for up to 12 children. How did

2:53:28you arrive at 12?

2:53:30>> Um, under licensing, that's how many

2:53:33children you are that's the maximum

2:53:35amount of children that you can have in

2:53:37a neighborhood.

2:53:38>> Okay. So, you're seeking the maximum?

2:53:39>> Yes, sir.

2:53:40>> All right. Tell me a little bit about

2:53:42the outreach in the neighborhood that

2:53:44you did. So, we sent out letters um

2:53:48shortly after we started this process um

2:53:51to the neighbors.

2:53:52>> When was that, please?

2:53:53>> I'm sorry.

2:53:54>> When was that, please?

2:53:56>> When was that?

2:53:57>> I am sometime in September maybe.

2:54:01Late August, early September. Um, I

2:54:04don't recall exactly, but it was just

2:54:07basically saying that we are interested

2:54:09in opening this daycare and that um, we

2:54:13are going to be licensed and if they had

2:54:18any questions to contact me, I put my

2:54:20information on there and no one

2:54:21contacted me. Um,

2:54:25so that's pretty much it. And then my

2:54:27mom has a good relationship with a few

2:54:30of the neighbors, so I know she

2:54:32communicated with them.

2:54:34>> Okay. Thank you.

2:54:36In terms of your business model, in

2:54:39reading some of the letters from the

2:54:41neighbors, uh there was discussion about

2:54:44uh not having as many children at the

2:54:47daycare. Can you tell me could your

2:54:50business model work if you had let us

2:54:53say six kids at the daycare rather than

2:54:56the maximum allowed by law?

2:54:58>> Yes. So we um we would like 12 children

2:55:04but I am also comfortable with a smaller

2:55:07group of children just because I have a

2:55:08daughter as well and she's the whole

2:55:10reason for this um daycare. Um, so yeah,

2:55:15six children is perfectly fine with us.

2:55:18We just want to spend as much time with

2:55:20her while earning an income and having a

2:55:24good um outlook on the computer uh

2:55:26community.

2:55:28>> So this is interesting. I didn't expect

2:55:30this. Um, so let me follow your comment

2:55:33a little bit.

2:55:36Is the purpose of this to run a business

2:55:39or is it really

2:55:41>> Well, tell me tell me what your real

2:55:43purpose is here. I think I heard you say

2:55:45it was more to do with your family.

2:55:48>> Yes. So, um the purpose is to run a

2:55:51daycare. It's always been a goal of mine

2:55:54to have my own business and um I work as

2:55:58an occupational therapist assistant

2:56:00right now. And so I leave my daughter 3

2:56:04days a week with my mother. Um, and it's

2:56:06just becoming harder and harder as she

2:56:07gets older. So in my big wonderful

2:56:11brain, I had this idea that I could make

2:56:14an income while being with my daughter

2:56:1824/7, which hopefully that works out.

2:56:21Um, and just

2:56:26I love children. I've been working with

2:56:28children so many years. is I worked as a

2:56:30monatory teacher for three years, three

2:56:32or four years. Um I worked in schools as

2:56:37an occupational therapist. Um right now

2:56:39I work at a skilled nursing home. So

2:56:41children have always been near and dear

2:56:44to my heart. And um so I hope I answered

2:56:48your question. I feel like I'm going

2:56:49>> Yes, that's fine. It's so who is the

2:56:52applicant?

2:56:54>> So it's my mother and I. She will the

2:56:57license will be under her name cuz she

2:57:00lives at the home, but our um our

2:57:03daycare is an LLC.

2:57:06So, it's the both of us.

2:57:08>> So, the LLC is is not applying for the

2:57:12daycare license with the state.

2:57:15>> You doing it personally?

2:57:16>> I'm sorry.

2:57:18>> What is the role of the LLC? Is the LLC

2:57:21seeking a license or are you doing it in

2:57:24your personal names?

2:57:27um

2:57:29the LLC would be seeking the license, I

2:57:32believe.

2:57:33>> Okay. The the reason that I'm asking is

2:57:35this disclosure statement came in with

2:57:38your personal names on it and then it

2:57:41said, "Are you a business?" And it said,

2:57:42"Yes." And then it lists an LLC. I'm

2:57:45trying to just sort out who's who

2:57:46because the LLC doesn't own the

2:57:48property.

2:57:50The one of your well your family owns

2:57:53the property,

2:57:54>> right?

2:57:55All right.

2:57:57>> In terms of the other issues that were

2:58:00raised by the neighbors, we have 28

2:58:04homes uh in this Culdeac area, including

2:58:08the home that you're talking about. Out

2:58:10of those 27 homes, five of them, nearly

2:58:1320% object to this. And and that's

2:58:16serious. That's enough to bring it to my

2:58:20real attention that a common

2:58:22understanding has not been achieved with

2:58:25this neighborhood. [snorts] And one of

2:58:28the challenges here has nothing to do

2:58:30with you or the way you would seek to

2:58:32run your business. It's with the street

2:58:35that if we could display the site plan,

2:58:37the street has sort of an S shape here

2:58:41and you're right out near the front of

2:58:43it and the whole rest of the

2:58:45neighborhood is going to exit past your

2:58:47house after passing through this series

2:58:50of S turns. Now, we understand in a

2:58:54residential area like this, people

2:58:55shouldn't be traveling fast, but the

2:58:58sight lines aren't great. And

2:59:02I believe that human nature is going to

2:59:05lead some of your clients not to drive

2:59:08all the way in and to the end and turn

2:59:10around neatly at the end of the

2:59:12culde-sac. I think they're going to be

2:59:14executing threepoint turns or driveway

2:59:16turns because it's just the quickest,

2:59:18shortest thing to do. And by the traffic

2:59:22count in the staff report, what was 10

2:59:25trips per day, their study says it's

2:59:28going to be 48 trips per day, almost

2:59:31five times the imposition on this

2:59:33neighborhood of what it currently is.

2:59:35So, I understand the neighbors concerns

2:59:37here. Did you talk to any of the

2:59:39neighbors about these concerns?

2:59:42>> Um, I have not. I've only spoken to the

2:59:45neighbors that my mother's familiar

2:59:47with. I'm not sure who sent the letters

2:59:49of opposition. I would love to speak to

2:59:51them. Um, but I have not spoken to those

2:59:56neighbors

2:59:57>> because my concern here is that I don't

3:00:00think there's a lot you can do about it.

3:00:03That if this business was approved to go

3:00:06forward in this site, it's going to

3:00:07place these cars in a particular place

3:00:10where the street is configured that is

3:00:12not optimal. And I can see many good

3:00:17businesses

3:00:18don't fit the site and that's what I'm

3:00:20wrestling with here. And it I don't

3:00:23believe that there's a simple solution

3:00:25to that. U that's a challenge for us.

3:00:30You haven't seen any of the letters?

3:00:32>> I have not. Yes, sir.

3:00:35>> All right. Commissioner Plumbley.

3:00:38Thank you. U Mr. here.

3:00:42How long has your mom lived at this

3:00:44location?

3:00:46>> Um, I was a senior. No,

3:00:51[snorts]

3:00:51>> 2011.

3:00:55>> 2011.

3:00:55>> Yeah.

3:00:56>> Is there is a large lot a house away,

3:01:02big open space. Is that a privately

3:01:05owned lot or is that a public space

3:01:07where people get to? It just see if

3:01:09you're facing your mom's house to the

3:01:12right.

3:01:12>> I think I know what lot you're speaking

3:01:14of. I'm not aware if it's private or

3:01:17>> so there's no access to that.

3:01:19>> Okay. That you were um I was there

3:01:23Monday. It seemed like a and it was I

3:01:26don't know 4:30 in the afternoon. Seemed

3:01:28like a fairly slow lane. Can you

3:01:30describe what how much traffic goes up

3:01:32and down that street?

3:01:35>> Um it doesn't seem to be very busy. in

3:01:39my opinion just people coming in and out

3:01:42from home. Um

3:01:45[snorts] so in my opinion I don't see

3:01:48the big issue with the traffic um as

3:01:52some of the neighbors are concerned

3:01:54with. Um

3:01:57so

3:01:58>> and have you looked into who would want

3:02:02your services in this area? Are there

3:02:04young families in that neighborhood that

3:02:06would want uh these are for kids two to

3:02:09five we're talking about?

3:02:10>> Yes.

3:02:11>> Um are you aware if there going to be

3:02:14clients nearby, folks that want your

3:02:16services nearby or do you know?

3:02:18>> There's always a need for child care and

3:02:20the way I'm promoting it as a monitor

3:02:23style daycare. So it's not [sighs]

3:02:27like just a

3:02:29it's structured. It's more like a

3:02:31classroom. Um, so that's

3:02:36that's my um take on that is there's

3:02:39always a need. I haven't really done too

3:02:41much um research on

3:02:45how many families would come and work

3:02:47with us, but that's and also with

3:02:51licensing. Um there's a lot of

3:02:55um sorry getting a little nervous. Um

3:03:00there's just a lot of regulations and

3:03:02they with them they also um promote your

3:03:05business.

3:03:06>> I see.

3:03:07>> Yeah.

3:03:08>> Okay. Thank you very much.

3:03:09>> Of course,

3:03:12>> Commissioner Ber.

3:03:14>> Thank you for coming today. I don't have

3:03:16any uh qualms about your qualifications

3:03:19to run this. I also agree 100% that

3:03:21there is a real need for this. However,

3:03:24this is a residential neighborhood and a

3:03:27substantial number of your neighbors

3:03:29feel this is inappropriate location for

3:03:31a daycare. And as I listen to you

3:03:34describe it, it really sounds like, you

3:03:36know, it's a business. And there are

3:03:39reasons why businesses don't generally

3:03:42fit inside of residential neighborhoods

3:03:44because of the negative impact on your

3:03:46neighbors. And I'm sure you're sensitive

3:03:49to that also. So, I just wanted you to

3:03:51understand why I'm very hesitant to

3:03:54recommend approval of this application.

3:03:57>> Okay.

3:04:01>> Just a minute.

3:04:02>> Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a motion.

3:04:04>> Well, I've got somebody over here wants

3:04:06to make the motion, too. But I I have a

3:04:07question first. uh for staff uh the

3:04:13number of 12 children.

3:04:15Does the education department refine

3:04:18that number particular to this location

3:04:23or is it just 12?

3:04:26So, in my understanding, zoning has a um

3:04:31a part to play in how many children you

3:04:33have in the home. But uh licensing can

3:04:38decrease the amount of children or

3:04:40increase well we can't go past 12 but if

3:04:44for instance the zoning committee says I

3:04:47could have 12 children in the home but

3:04:49the licensing comes in and sees no this

3:04:51isn't appropriate for 12 children then

3:04:54they can say we could have five or six

3:04:56or what they recommend.

3:05:00So yes, the state department they

3:05:02education department they will set the

3:05:04maximum um that can be at this at the

3:05:07house 12 is the maximum. This commission

3:05:10also has the ability to change that

3:05:12maximum as as you've done on other

3:05:14applications if you think there's a

3:05:15number better suited less than 12.

3:05:20>> Commissioner Scoover wants to make a

3:05:22motion.

3:05:23>> Yes. I'd like to move that we approve

3:05:24this application with two additions. one

3:05:27the requirement of the railing being put

3:05:29on the bottom and Mike if you have any

3:05:30particulars you want to add to that and

3:05:32to limit the ch the u number of children

3:05:34to 10 please

3:05:36>> I'm sorry could you repeat that I

3:05:38couldn't hear it

3:05:39>> yes I wanted to approve the application

3:05:41with two changes one adding the

3:05:44requirement that we put the railing up

3:05:46in the back where uh that what um

3:05:48commissioner Anderson was referencing

3:05:50and to limit the number of children to

3:05:5210

3:05:53>> second

3:05:56discussion.

3:05:57>> Any discussion?

3:05:59>> Yes,

3:06:04I concur with Cath with Vice Chair Ber's

3:06:07comments and had I been recognized, I

3:06:10would have put a motion forward to deny

3:06:13this application. I don't find that this

3:06:16particular site is appropriate for this

3:06:19particular land use.

3:06:22I also believe that the high percentage

3:06:26of neighbors expressing concerns, some

3:06:29of which are very strongly worded,

3:06:32are accommodated by the applicant.

3:06:36Number three, I also feel that the

3:06:38applicant has stated she would be

3:06:40willing to go with a lower limit of six

3:06:44to try to mitigate this and that the

3:06:47limit that is being proposed in the

3:06:49current motion of 10

3:06:52is more than that number. It's not

3:06:55changing it too much from the 12. Six

3:06:57would be a more meaningful change.

3:07:05made a motion. Did you?

3:07:08>> Yes,

3:07:09>> I made a motion.

3:07:10>> So, I guess at this point we would need

3:07:12a substitute motion. Then

3:07:17>> I would like to second uh Commissioner

3:07:19Camp's substitute motion.

3:07:23>> Did he made make a motion?

3:07:26>> All right, let me clean that up. I'd

3:07:27like to make a substitute motion that

3:07:30continues to carry forward Commissioner

3:07:32Anderson's

3:07:33preferred U recommendation with regard

3:07:36to the stairwell handrail and that

3:07:38modifies Commissioner Skoonover's

3:07:41original motion with regard to the

3:07:43maximum number lowering it from 10 to

3:07:45six.

3:07:50>> I will second uh Commissioner Camp's

3:07:53motion.

3:07:54>> Okay. So, we have uh a substitute motion

3:07:58by Commissioner Camp, second by

3:08:01Commissioner Anderson.

3:08:03>> Is there a motion to make the substitute

3:08:05motion the primary motion?

3:08:06>> Yes.

3:08:09>> Yes. I'd like to make the secondary

3:08:10motion a a primary.

3:08:13>> Second.

3:08:17[sighs]

3:08:27The vote is open.

3:08:29>> I just want to add my comment before we

3:08:31vote. The applicant may want fewer, but

3:08:34our city needs more.

3:08:36>> And this is just a vote to make the

3:08:39substitute motion the primary motion

3:08:41just for everyone's awareness.

3:08:49Mine's not showing now, but I don't want

3:08:51to make [laughter] I would like to vote

3:08:52against that.

3:08:56>> Commissioner Cromwell

3:08:57>> I

3:09:01[laughter]

3:09:08>> recorded vote of four to six. The motion

3:09:12to make the substitute motion to May

3:09:13motion has failed.

3:09:20>> So now we go back to the

3:09:22>> So now the motion on the table is still

3:09:24the primary motion made by Commissioner

3:09:26>> Skoonover.

3:09:38Is she open? Madam clerk, are we ready

3:09:40for the vote?

3:09:42>> We're trying to. I think

3:09:44>> we'll do a verbal vote. [laughter]

3:09:50>> Um, one second.

3:09:57>> Commissioner Mulch.

3:09:58>> Hi.

3:09:59>> Commissioner Camp.

3:10:02>> Nay.

3:10:02>> Commissioner Cromwell.

3:10:04>> Nay.

3:10:05>> Commissioner Anderson.

3:10:07>> Nay. [snorts] Vice Chair Ber.

3:10:10>> Nay.

3:10:11>> Chair Cen.

3:10:12>> I.

3:10:14>> Commissioner Skunover.

3:10:16>> I.

3:10:17>> Commissioner Plumbley.

3:10:18>> I.

3:10:19>> Commissioner Hippen.

3:10:21>> I.

3:10:22>> Commissioner Morjani.

3:10:24>> I.

3:10:27>> By recorded vote of 6 to 4. Item nine.

3:10:30Just peina police coral has been

3:10:34recommended for approval as modified.

3:10:39Thank you.

3:10:43>> Our next item is item 13, 5112st Street

3:10:47LLC.

3:10:50>> Ryan, I should have asked the

3:10:52chocolates.

3:10:53Expensive chocolates.

3:11:01[laughter]

3:11:05>> Mr. Chair, I think this applicant is

3:11:07online. Is that is that fair?

3:11:15[clears throat]

3:11:21[clears throat]

3:11:22>> Do what?

3:11:25Hello. It looks like I'm I am present.

3:11:28Correct.

3:11:31>> Yes.

3:11:32>> Oh, good. Hi, this is Kevin Fritz, uh,

3:11:35owner of 5112st Street,

3:11:39and we are, uh, proposing to make this a

3:11:42short-term rental.

3:11:47>> I have some questions for you. This is,

3:11:49um, Brian Plumbley. Um,

3:11:52>> yes, sir.

3:11:53>> Where are you from? Where where are you

3:11:56calling in from?

3:11:57>> I'm currently in northeast Texas.

3:12:02>> Okay. And so you don't reside in

3:12:05Virginia Beach. Is that fair?

3:12:07>> No, we do not. This was uh a purchase

3:12:10for us as a dual use property. It had

3:12:12been grandfathered in. I went and met

3:12:15with the uh uh revenue commissioner. Uh

3:12:19well, actually I did on the phone and

3:12:21then Katie uh Kennedy. And so we

3:12:25originally thought that this was

3:12:26grandfathered in as a short-term rental,

3:12:28but apparently he did not pay his uh or

3:12:31he did not have a renter for two years

3:12:33while his wife was sick. And so we're uh

3:12:36back to the beginning of of the process

3:12:38for the cup.

3:12:40>> Have you met with any of the neighbors

3:12:44surrounding this property to talk about

3:12:46it being a short-term rental?

3:12:49>> Uh no. Uh we our our next door neighbor

3:12:53uh is a renter. Actually, I've got two

3:12:55renters that uh one on the left, one on

3:12:58the right. And then the owner of the

3:13:00property on the left uh I've spoken to

3:13:03and uh have not not specifically said,

3:13:06"Hey, do do you have any issue with this

3:13:08as as a rental?" However, I do know that

3:13:11we're in the uh proposed overlay and uh

3:13:16so I I'm not sure what else to say about

3:13:18that. Have you been to the location?

3:13:22>> Of course. Yes, we have.

3:13:24>> I I shouldn't say of course. No, you uh

3:13:26we we actually have gone uh remodeled

3:13:29the the property uh have stayed in it

3:13:32probably since March a total of I would

3:13:35say a couple of months uh off and on,

3:13:37maybe a month and a half. And then I've

3:13:39met with uh I've met with zoning uh

3:13:42multiple uh individuals within zoning,

3:13:45short-term rental DSC because we've got

3:13:48to work on the parking and then uh yeah,

3:13:52I I think that I can hear myself in the

3:13:55background. So, I think that's the point

3:13:57I'd like to make.

3:13:58>> Do you own a number of short-term

3:14:00rentals?

3:14:01>> No, we do not. We own a number of long

3:14:04long-term rentals, but not a number of

3:14:06short-term rentals. Do you are you aware

3:14:09of because you've stayed there. How does

3:14:11how is it functioned for you getting in

3:14:13and out the the entry point is on the

3:14:16half street? Correct.

3:14:18>> That's correct. It's well positioned. Uh

3:14:20so there is a 19x4 foot parking pad that

3:14:24is currently there. We thought what we

3:14:25were going to do is potentially have to

3:14:29re uh uh surface the back parking, but

3:14:33it has a very accessible uh gate and uh

3:14:37and then a shed in the back and then you

3:14:39just walk across the uh the lawn into

3:14:42the property. We've we've been there

3:14:43both in uh rainy uh time and dry time

3:14:48and find it to be extremely accessible.

3:14:51Is it your intent to have short-term

3:14:53rental year round at that home?

3:14:57>> Uh, I think I this is a dual use

3:15:00property for us. My wife is from

3:15:02Virginia Beach, went to Cox High School,

3:15:04and so eager to get back and and spend

3:15:07time there. Uh, and so we we were

3:15:10considering uh I would say primarily

3:15:13considering short-term rental in the

3:15:15summer with the idea that we could

3:15:16short-term rent it or or midterm rent it

3:15:19in in the winter. But there will be a

3:15:21couple of months that we want to be

3:15:22there at the property.

3:15:23>> Thank you very much. Those are my

3:15:25questions. I appreciate it.

3:15:27>> Absolutely.

3:15:28>> Any other questions?

3:15:31>> I have a motion uh to approve this

3:15:34short-term rental request at this

3:15:36location with the condition that the

3:15:38conditional use permit shall not be

3:15:40activated until the short-term rental is

3:15:42in good standing with the commissioner

3:15:44of revenue and is registered to pay

3:15:46taxes for this use. Second.

3:15:49>> It has been moved by Commissioner

3:15:51Plumbley and seconded by Commissioner

3:15:53Skunover that this item be approved.

3:15:57>> The vote is open.

3:16:09>> Commissioner Anderson, your vote.

3:16:11>> Yay.

3:16:15By a recorded vote of 10 to zero, item

3:16:1813, 511 21st Street LLC has been

3:16:22recommended for approval as modified.

3:16:26Our final item is item 14, Alexandra and

3:16:29Constance Mening.

3:16:38>> Good afternoon.

3:16:39>> Good afternoon. Please state your name

3:16:41for the record.

3:16:41>> Yes, sir. My name is Constance Mening

3:16:45and uh we have applied for a short-term

3:16:47rental permit at 414 22nd and a half

3:16:50street. Um like the gentleman before me,

3:16:53I've uh spent some time there since June

3:16:56when we purchased the property. So some

3:16:58of the questions you asked him, I have

3:17:00some information. Um I've spent quite a

3:17:03bit of time there. We did some painting

3:17:04and remodeling and things like that. So

3:17:06I stayed at the property while I worked

3:17:08on those and I've gotten to know most of

3:17:10the neighbors. Um they're a good group

3:17:13of people. They're mostly

3:17:15my age, some of them older. Um so it's

3:17:18fairly quiet. Um there's as far as the

3:17:22traffic, there's really there's very

3:17:24little traffic, honestly. There's a lot

3:17:26of foot traffic and bicycle traffic, but

3:17:28it's rare that vehicles go back and

3:17:31forth because there's nowhere to go.

3:17:32Unless you live back there, there's

3:17:34really no reason for you to be back

3:17:35there. um some of the parking and

3:17:38actually next door to me. The parking is

3:17:40for the the building that faces the

3:17:44street behind me, which I believe is

3:17:4623rd Street um on the back of our house.

3:17:50So, it's um it's quiet and the everybody

3:17:54knows where they're allowed to park. We

3:17:57kind of cooperate with with each other.

3:17:58If there's delivery to be made or

3:18:00something, we'll ask, you know, to move

3:18:01a car here or there. But um and the only

3:18:04rental that I'm aware of short-term on

3:18:06that block right now is the one directly

3:18:09across the street from ours. And um

3:18:12they've I was there most of July and

3:18:14into August

3:18:16um daily. I stayed there for about six

3:18:18weeks. And um they had renters all the

3:18:21time in and out and they were they were

3:18:24lovely. I mean they were quiet. They

3:18:26were mostly families.

3:18:28um they were, you know, they parked

3:18:30their cars in the in the driveway and

3:18:33walked everywhere or rode bikes. So,

3:18:35there was um I don't know. I think it's

3:18:37it's wonderful. It's a wonderful

3:18:39neighborhood. It's a wonderful location.

3:18:41It's very quiet. And I uh trying to

3:18:44think what else you might have asked

3:18:45him.

3:18:47I I don't reside. You asked him this, so

3:18:49you may want to know. I don't live here.

3:18:50I live in North Carolina. My daughter,

3:18:52though, is a Virginia Beach resident,

3:18:54and she's just a few miles away from the

3:18:55property.

3:18:58Is there anything [snorts] else?

3:19:00>> Well, you were kind enough to meet with

3:19:02me before this formal and we talked

3:19:05about these things. This is the kind of

3:19:07information we need to get up before

3:19:09council because they're considering this

3:19:11area actively. I think it's important to

3:19:12understand the only complaints I've

3:19:15heard, well the primary complaint I've

3:19:16heard is on these half streets where you

3:19:18have uh parking going on in and out.

3:19:21It's has on occasion blocked people's

3:19:23ability to use their property

3:19:25conveniently at times. Doesn't always

3:19:28last that long, but it has been sort of

3:19:30a consistent theme. But I think you've

3:19:32addressed that and I appreciate it very

3:19:34much.

3:19:34>> You're very welcome.

3:19:40>> Commissioner Maul, uh, how long have you

3:19:42owned the property for?

3:19:44>> We purchased it in June of this year.

3:19:46>> Okay.

3:19:46>> So, we haven't rented it yet. we've been

3:19:48going through this process and um my

3:19:51daughter's military so she's gone a lot

3:19:53and I don't work as fast as I used to so

3:19:55I've been working on my own there

3:19:57primarily so that's why I spent so much

3:19:59time there it takes a while for me to

3:20:00paint a room now

3:20:02>> yes

3:20:03>> yeah thank you

3:20:04>> welcome

3:20:07>> any further questions

3:20:10>> Mr. [clears throat] chair of a motion

3:20:11that the conditional use permit uh be

3:20:13granted for short-term rental, but it

3:20:16not be activated until the short-term

3:20:18rental is in good standing with the

3:20:19commissioner of revenue. And I move to

3:20:21approve.

3:20:22>> Second.

3:20:23>> It has been moved by Commissioner

3:20:25Plumbley and seconded by Commissioner

3:20:27Skunover that this item be approved.

3:20:30>> Thank you much.

3:20:32>> The vote is open.

3:20:37>> Commissioner Cromwell, will your vote? I

3:20:43>> by a recorded vote of 10 to zero, item

3:20:4514, Alexandria and Constance Mening has

3:20:48been recommended for approval as

3:20:49modified.

3:20:52>> We thank everyone for coming out today

3:20:54and participating.

3:20:56This meeting is adjourned.