2026-10-14 - Public Health Safety and Environment Committee

01:59Mhm.

03:54>> Mhm.

05:49>> Mhm.

07:06>> City Council Committee on Public Health,

07:08Safety, and the Environment go post with

07:09the Committee of the Whole

07:11meet in person on Wednesday, October

07:1314th, 2026

07:15uh at 6:00 p.m. for the purpose

07:22for the purpose

07:25I just forget which one which one.

07:27for the purpose of discussing and

07:29and possibly creating amendments

07:31relative to the camping ordinance.

07:33Uh this meeting will be held in City

07:35Council

07:36Chambers, 93 Washington Street, Salem,

07:39Massachusetts, 2nd Floor.

07:41Um with us in council chambers, we have

07:45all members of the committee

07:47and all members of the committee of the

07:49whole, I believe.

07:51Um, we also have uh Chief of Police

07:54Miller,

07:55uh police uh fire chief Dion,

07:57and Don Whitehead from the National

07:59Coalition for the Homeless. Did I miss

08:01anybody else for We have uh Captain

08:03Burke here as well from the Community

08:05Impact Unit.

08:07Um, okay. So, we have uh

08:10Um, a few things to do tonight. So, we

08:11have uh the ordinances, I believe it

08:14should be in front of everybody right

08:15now. Does everyone have a copy?

08:19I haven't checked here.

08:30I do not see a copy in front of of

08:31myself. Does anyone else have a copy in

08:33front of them right now?

08:34Apologies.

08:36Um, okay. Well,

08:37uh the ordinance is open for discussion.

08:40It can be discussion, it could be

08:41amendments, however we want to uh frame

08:43this conversation.

08:45I do want to take care to um

08:47uh

08:48gauge the temperature of the Public

08:50Health, Safety, and the Environment

08:51Committee um before we start digging

08:53into uh amending language and adjusting

08:56language. Want to just

08:58um take a few minutes to get the

08:59temperature for the committee and see if

09:01this is something we want to pursue or

09:02how we want to how we want to handle

09:03this this item that's before us before

09:05the committee.

09:06Uh we'll have a presentation from Don

09:08Whitehead from the National um

09:10Coalition for the Homeless,

09:13uh a presentation from Chief Dion, and

09:15then any other city officials that would

09:16like to speak are able to speak, and

09:18then we can ask questions along the way

09:19here. So,

09:21I'll ask Mr. Whitehead if he's available

09:22right now if he would like to address

09:24the council for a 15-minute

09:26presentation.

09:27Um, and then we'll give an opportunity

09:29for any councilors to ask questions, and

09:31then we'll move on to uh Chief Dion. So,

09:34Don, are you available? Can you hear us?

09:37>> And uh I am available.

09:39>> Make sure that we make sure that we can

09:40hear you.

09:42Keep trying to speak.

09:43>> hear me?

09:45>> Let me turn the volume up on this.

09:49>> I am available and hopefully you guys

09:51can hear me.

09:52>> Yeah, we can hear you right now.

09:54>> Okay, and I'll

09:55share my screen.

09:57I just have a quick presentation I'll go

09:59through

10:00based on our experience at the National

10:03Coalition when it comes to the issue of

10:06criminalization.

10:08And

10:10if you guys can see my screen, let me

10:13know.

10:14>> Yeah, we can we can see it.

10:16>> So just a little bit of background on

10:17the National Coalition for the Homeless.

10:19We are the oldest advocacy group that

10:22works directly with and on behalf of

10:24people experiencing homelessness.

10:27We take as our first principle of

10:28practice that people experiencing

10:31homelessness

10:32should be a part of all of our

10:36leadership and decision-making

10:37processes. Um

10:40the National Coalition for the Homeless

10:41drafted the McKinney-Vento Act, which is

10:44the primary source of funding for all

10:46homeless programs covered by the

10:49Department of Housing and Urban

10:50Development under its continuum of care

10:53process.

10:54We also drafted the Education for

10:56Homeless Children and Youth Act,

10:58which makes a liaison available for

11:00every school district in the country.

11:03Uh and So, the idea of uh

11:09vagrancy laws and laws that

11:12have declared people living on the

11:14streets and in in vehicles have been

11:16around forever.

11:18They were found to be unconstitutional

11:20though by the Supreme Court and that's

11:22vagrancy laws in 1972.

11:26Back in 2016,

11:29there was about 187 cities that had

11:34prohibited actions that were associated

11:37with people not having a place to live.

11:40Uh things like loitering, sleeping

11:42outside.

11:43Uh at but between 2006 and 16,

11:47uh those laws had increased by 31%.

11:51Uh and just a quick I'm sure all of you

11:54know this, but what is criminalization?

11:56Uh it's prohibiting sleeping,

11:58prohibiting camping, prohibiting sitting

12:00or lying in a public space, prohibiting

12:03lodging or living and sleeping in a

12:04vehicle, prohibiting loitering or

12:07loafing, uh prohibiting loitering or

12:10loitering loitering or loafing in a

12:12public place. And all of these laws are

12:15um

12:16are are uh

12:18have fines, jail, um or incarceration uh

12:22connected to them. Uh and uh what we did

12:26is we took a look at the effects of

12:29these laws uh in our community. Uh and

12:32we looked at the impact. Uh what we

12:34found is that homelessness is

12:36increasing.

12:37Uh but the majority of the reason people

12:40are homeless has nothing to do with

12:42personal issues. Uh it has more to do

12:45with housing shortages, economic

12:47instability, and basically a weak safety

12:50net. Uh but we do see more and more

12:54policies that make it a it make it

12:56punitive uh to be a person who does not

13:00have access to housing in our country.

13:03Um the financial burden um is it has

13:07high enforcement costs. I'll give you

13:09one example uh of a city in Florida uh

13:13where they spent about $6 million

13:15uh on 37 people uh based on arrest

13:19alone. Um supportive housing costs are

13:22about 10,000 per person per per year, um

13:25depending on where you are in the

13:26country. So, it's much less uh

13:30expensive to do the housing versus the

13:32criminalization. Um, uh

13:34and the the example I'll give you is

13:36from Osceola County, Florida. Uh and uh

13:40again, it's more cost-effective

13:42to find humane and positive approaches

13:45versus criminalization. Uh there was a

13:48Supreme Court decision in 2024

13:52uh that um made it basically legal to to

13:56practice these criminalization practices

13:58across the country. Uh that followed a

14:02ordinance uh out of the 9th Circuit that

14:04said you could not criminalize people

14:07unless you had enough beds in your

14:09community. And unfortunately, no

14:11community has enough beds for the entire

14:14population. Uh the Supreme Court

14:16reversed that decision in Grants versus

14:19Johnson, made it illegal um

14:22made it legal to uh criminalize people

14:25uh saying that it wasn't a violation of

14:27the 8th Amendment. Uh since that time,

14:30uh 320 cities uh have introduced

14:34ordinances and 220 of those have passed.

14:37Uh

14:38This is just a uh uh uh uh a slide that

14:41shows you the percentage of unmet need

14:44in communities across the country. Uh

14:47meaning that these are the shelter beds

14:49in that community versus the unmet need

14:52in that community. Uh how many people um

14:55percentage-wise still need beds and

14:57don't have them in those communities. Uh

15:00this is the example of Osceola County,

15:02Florida. They tracked 37 people

15:06over 10-year period. They have been

15:08arrested 1,250 times

15:11uh and that accounted for 61,890

15:14total days of incarceration

15:16uh at a cost of $6.4 million.

15:20And again, if you take that 10 years uh

15:23and you house those people, it's much

15:26much less cost-effective to do

15:27incarceration. So,

15:31the UN has already also looked at this

15:34and and found it to be a a practice that

15:39really increases the cost overall in the

15:43community

15:45for for jail, sometimes for emergency

15:48room visits. Some people also are using

15:52forced institutionalization in their

15:54communities. And again, that comes at a

15:56cost that is much more

15:59expensive than to house people.

16:02These are the communities across the

16:04country that actually

16:07have in 38 states,

16:10they spend more on incarceration and

16:12jail than they do on housing and

16:13community development.

16:15Massachusetts is not in those 38, but

16:19the rest of the city is. The rest of the

16:22country, the 38 communities are. And so,

16:26there have been actual studies on what

16:28criminalization does in the community.

16:31One

16:32really important thing to to know about

16:35it is it does not reduce homelessness.

16:38It increases it by 1.6% for individuals

16:42that are are homeless and 2.2%.

16:46There's a 2.2%

16:48increase in unsheltered homelessness in

16:50those communities that have

16:52chosen criminalization as a practice.

16:56And again, there are financial burdens

16:57all across the system, but it also

17:00reinforces negative association

17:02associations of crime with people

17:05experiencing homelessness. These studies

17:07were done at the University of Austin

17:09and the University of Central Florida.

17:11Um

17:12So, the rising arrest of people that are

17:16experiencing homelessness, we should

17:17really take a look at about 5.6 million

17:21people cycle through jails every year.

17:24205,000

17:25people experiencing homelessness are

17:27booked into jail every year. 4.5% of all

17:31the bookings of jail are people who are

17:33unhoused and 33% of those charges are

17:38property related charges

17:42versus 18% of all the people jailed. 42%

17:47of unhoused people experience two or

17:48more bookings compared to only 20% of

17:51the general population. And this is the

17:54homeless rates among formerly

17:56incarcerated people.

17:58As you see those rates are are really

18:00really high and these

18:02this research comes from the prison

18:04policy institute.

18:06And I won't stay on this for long in in

18:09in um

18:10relation to time. But the slide I talked

18:14about earlier,

18:16when it comes to violent charges,

18:1813% of the violations against people

18:21experiencing homelessness are violent

18:23versus 20% of the the general

18:27population. Meaning that the general

18:29population is a lot more violent

18:32according to arrest than people

18:33experiencing homelessness and the

18:35overwhelming majority of those arrests

18:37are property crimes.

18:40Even when you think about drug related

18:42crimes, only 17% of those that have been

18:44arrested are being arrested for drug

18:46related crimes and these are national

18:48figures.

18:49And people who are jailed

18:53that are unhoused again, they're housed

18:55multiple times in a year. 42% have two

18:59or more bookings in 12 months. 58% have

19:03one booking in 12 months. And if you

19:05look at the house population, only 20%

19:08are right about half have uh two or more

19:11bookings in 12 months and 80% have one

19:14booking.

19:15Um and

19:17uh the other statistics that might

19:19surprise you are unhoused people stay in

19:21jail 50% longer.

19:23Uh the majority uh there's a

19:26disproportionate amount of people

19:28experiencing homelessness that are 55

19:30years and over. Actually, 50% of the

19:32unhoused population are people 50 years

19:35of age and older. Uh 10% of the entire

19:38population versus 50%

19:41uh of 15% Excuse me, uh people who are

19:44unhoused are 55 years of age and older.

19:48Uh there is a disproportionality

19:50among people of color. Uh

19:53especially black people, 31% of all

19:55bookings versus 40% of the bookings of

19:58unhoused people are people are black

20:00people. Uh and other people of color uh

20:03are overrepresented as well.

20:06Um

20:06again, uh people experiencing

20:09homelessness are booked far less for

20:11property-related crimes. Um

20:14uh again, this is the overall uh gender

20:18and uh

20:19age categories of people experiencing

20:21homelessness. Uh there's a higher

20:23percentage of unhoused men than women.

20:26Uh and again, people of color are

20:27disproportionate in those numbers.

20:31Uh this is um

20:33the idea that people move to a location

20:36because you create a facility or shelter

20:39uh is untrue. The same study that looked

20:42at the criminalization also found that

20:44the majority of people who are homeless

20:47become homeless

20:48in the community that they grew up in

20:50versus people moving around for better

20:53homeless facilities.

20:54Uh and again, the these are some

20:58uh additional slides about the impact

21:00the racial impact. Um again, the cost of

21:04criminalization. Here's some of the

21:05impacts that are not as relevant as that

21:08data cuz of course people experiencing

21:10homelessness are not just data, they're

21:12people.

21:13Um, so they lose valuables and uh,

21:16when you're homeless you have very few

21:20valuable items you can take with you.

21:22Uh, but often they lose identification.

21:25They lose medication.

21:27They lose all the things that make it

21:29easier for them to become become housed.

21:32It forces people into isolation which

21:35may result in in deadly outcomes and

21:37I'll talk just a little bit more about

21:39that.

21:40People become isolated and so they're

21:42more susceptible to violence and hate

21:45crimes and people experiencing

21:47homelessness

21:48already have shorter lifespans.

21:51The average age is about 55 at death.

21:55Um,

21:56raids also exacerbate health problems.

21:59It also creates new ones.

22:01People often have their medication

22:03confiscated. And and the timing of we we

22:08don't endorse people sleeping outside,

22:10but we do believe that if if that is to

22:13happen in a community, there should be

22:16support in those encampments. People

22:18should be given adequate time to move

22:20their belongings.

22:22They often time

22:24don't have enough

22:26resources to be able to move things like

22:28medical devices and

22:31people have lost

22:33Narcan and and other things that would

22:36would would prolong their life during

22:38these raids. We call them raids. Some

22:41people call them encampment closures.

22:44And the the necessary amount of time is

22:47is absolutely important to make sure

22:50that's in place.

22:51It also erodes the trust in the systems

22:55of care.

22:57And and so outreach workers sometimes

23:00work years to get people, especially

23:02those with mental health and behavioral

23:04health issues, into a system. Uh if if

23:08those outreach workers are present at

23:10these raids, uh that uh that uh

23:15trust and that that work that's been

23:17done to create relationships is is often

23:20times completely dismantled. And uh the

23:24people experiencing homelessness uh may

23:27be in a queue for housing. Uh that is

23:30actually uh it's it's really hard to

23:33find people once they scatter. Uh and as

23:35I said, it it it also could lead to

23:38violence. Now, these are numbers we've

23:40been doing for 24 years. We've been

23:42looking at violence against people that

23:44are homeless that is perpetrated by

23:46people who are housed. Um uh at one

23:50point, there were more of those acts

23:52than all the other protected classes

23:54combined. This year, we saw a 200%

23:58increase in the number of people who

24:00were victims of uh

24:02things like firebombing. Uh

24:05uh there was about 60% of the cases were

24:07were uh gun violence was involved. Uh

24:10there were stabbings. Uh there were

24:13every kind of violent act you can think

24:15of. Uh but those increased by 200%.

24:19And so, um these are the very most

24:21important things and I'll close with

24:22this. Housing should be a human right in

24:25this country. Homelessness is solvable.

24:28Homelessness is not a choice. Uh people

24:31are forced into homelessness by economic

24:33conditions.

24:34Uh housing first does work. Uh we must

24:38address structural issues in

24:40homelessness, including structural

24:41racism, poverty, lack of mental health

24:44resources, and criminalization. And at

24:47the end of the day, the most important

24:49thing to remember is that homelessness

24:51uh is not solved when a person is

24:54arrested or put into an institution.

24:57When that person leaves that

24:58institutional stay or incarceration,

25:01they're still homeless and their

25:03homelessness has been exacerbated

25:05because they now have a criminal record

25:07make making it even harder

25:10to be able to find housing.

25:12And I wanted to share just one more

25:15slide with you.

25:17Uh And this is from the national

25:20uh um

25:22law the national housing uh low-income

25:24housing coalition. And this is the

25:27average wages uh that are needed in

25:30Massachusetts. Massachusetts has the

25:32third highest housing wage in the

25:35country.

25:36The per hour housing wage in

25:39Massachusetts is $48 an hour. What that

25:42means is that if you're able to

25:44comfortably afford a two-bedroom housing

25:47unit uh and only spend 30% of your your

25:51income, the income you need to earn is

25:53$48.

25:55Uh if you want to

25:57uh rent a two-bedroom

25:59uh at minimum wage, which uh gladly is

26:02higher than most of the country, you

26:03still have to work 130 hours. Uh 106

26:07hours for a one-bedroom.

26:09Uh and it takes 3.2 full-time jobs to

26:12afford a two-bedroom and 2.7 full-time

26:16jobs uh to afford a one-bedroom in

26:19Massachusetts. And you can see

26:21uh what the what the the minimum and

26:24medium rents are uh in Massachusetts.

26:26So, what we have is a housing problem.

26:30Uh the majority of the people that are

26:31homeless are there because of housing

26:33and not because of any behavioral health

26:34issues. And I'll stop there.

26:39>> Thank you, Don. Um

26:41are you able to hang tight for a few

26:43minutes while we do some other

26:44presentations so you can be around for

26:46the question period?

26:48>> Absolutely.

26:48>> Okay, great. Great. If if

26:50I'm sorry. I'll mute myself.

26:53If there's any issues whatsoever with

26:54your time, just raise your hand and I'll

26:56I'll go to you. I'd like the council to

26:57get a chance to ask questions, but I do

26:59want to get through some presentations

27:00first and then get to the question and

27:01answer period. Thank you so much, John.

27:03>> Certainly.

27:06>> All right. Chief Dion, would you like to

27:15>> Here is my screen.

27:42Okay, there we have it.

27:44To begin, thank you, council, this for

27:47allowing me to speak here. And And Mr.

27:49Whitehead's uh information was very

27:51useful.

27:56Uh was very useful. I

27:58thoroughly enjoyed his second-to-last

27:59slide. I thought it was insightful.

28:02Um I'm here as a representative of the

28:04Salem Fire Department.

28:06A 30-year 34-year veteran of the

28:08department representing 89 firefighters

28:11and dozens of emergency medical health

28:13care providers who work for a private

28:16ambulance company. My purpose to rise

28:19and speak is um

28:23not to disrespect anybody, the homeless,

28:25any person that's in need, anything like

28:27that. And if it comes across like that,

28:29it's it's not my intent. My intent is to

28:31speak on two parts of this issue that

28:33directly impact public safety in this

28:36community as it's seen by the fire

28:37department.

28:39Those areas

28:40have become very evident in 2024

28:44when we experienced wildfires like none

28:46other in this community and um

28:50and I had an issue with some of the

28:52encampments, not all but some, where the

28:54conditions were absolutely horrific and

28:56deplorable.

28:58No disrespect to disrespect to anybody

28:59that supported those communities, uh

29:02took part in those communities, or even

29:03lived there. But the conditions were

29:05abhorrent and it was very difficult for

29:08my team to go into those locations. So,

29:10I'm here to address those concerns that

29:12I had and some of these slides were

29:15presented to me by members that

29:16contributed to this presentation. So,

29:18I'll start here.

29:20Uh and this presentation is not a

29:22political statement by the Salem Fire

29:24Department.

29:25It explains why the Salem Fire

29:26Department does not support changes or

29:28additional restrictions

29:30to the existing core camping ordinance

29:33that allow camping on wildland urban

29:36interface areas

29:37or encampments throughout the city.

29:40We fully support efforts to improve the

29:42lives of people in need of assistance

29:45and who are experiencing homelessness.

29:48Uh the position statement is clear.

29:49Again, [clears throat] I do not intend

29:51to offend anybody, but this is our

29:53position and I'm speaking for the

29:54department. It is the position of the

29:56Salem Fire Department that the city

29:57should continue to support the unhoused

29:59population in Salem.

30:02Despite some concerns, the existing

30:03camping ordinance should be remain in

30:06place. In addition, to better protect

30:08the public and public safety workers,

30:10recommendations made by the police

30:12should be adopted

30:14as part of this position statement.

30:17Two key points will be made that

30:19directly relate to the need for a

30:20strong, enforceable camping ordinance. I

30:23briefly mentioned them.

30:25Part one, wild urban wildland urban

30:28interface fires and how they impact the

30:30community and their cause.

30:32Part two will discuss dangers of

30:33allowing encampments that are

30:35unregulated throughout the city and the

30:37dangers they present to the public

30:39safety workers.

30:41I'll start with some definitions wild

30:43urban interface fires. It is an

30:45important topic.

30:47Um

30:48the National Fire Administration terms

30:50wild wildland urban interfaces is the

30:53term used to describe the desert the

30:55transition zone where human development

30:57and structures meet or intermingle with

31:00undeveloped

31:02wildland or vegetable fuels.

31:04WUI areas, the interface one is a high

31:07density and moderate density human

31:09development

31:10with structures directly abutting and

31:12adjacent to continuous wildland

31:14vegetation. I'll give you an example.

31:16Highland Ave where the Vincent potato

31:17chip site used to be, that would be a

31:19basic interface.

31:21An intermediate interface is a low

31:23density scattered structure area with

31:25housing units intermingled directly

31:28within vegetation and surrounded by two

31:29or more sides of wildland. I would dare

31:31say a good 80% of our wildland

31:34intervention interface areas are just

31:36that, intermediate areas. Those are the

31:38more extreme.

31:40Um wild wildland tourist interface areas

31:43represent about 32% of all continental

31:45United States homes covering about 175

31:49million acres.

31:50Salem is comprised of about 5,300 acres

31:53at 8.2 square miles of land area.

31:56And it's about 2,100 acres of open space

31:58including parks and private land. About

32:0070% of that, 1,500 acres

32:03of that open space is wildland urban

32:05interface zones.

32:08Salem's wildland urban interface areas

32:10include the woods, Salem woods along

32:13Wilson Road, the golf course we all know

32:14at Swampscott Road so forth.

32:17Kinhill which is behind um

32:19the Girl Scout Camp, Lions Lane,

32:21Walmart, all those areas, Clock Ave,

32:24Technology Way off of Highland Ave.

32:27The Forrester Conservation Area, South

32:29Campus Pickman Road, nearby residential

32:31areas surrounded by woodlands.

32:34South Campus Cedar Crest, Salem Cedar

32:36Crest areas. All the hills out of Loring

32:39Ave up to the right. I believe one of

32:41the council lives up there and is very

32:43forested. Um the wooded areas in South

32:45Salem towards Marblehead, left side of

32:47Loring Ave.

32:48North Salem has them too, McCabe Park.

32:51Uh all those areas about in Kernwood.

32:53Uh Salem Willows, Cannon Hills. We have

32:56numerous fires uh down in that area and

32:58it's quite a quite a expanse of space.

33:01And other residential areas, Forest

33:02River Park. I could go on forever. It's

33:04important to know these areas in Salem

33:06and those areas where people we pre-plan

33:08for.

33:10Why isn't it important important to

33:11identify these areas? Wildland urban

33:13interface areas make up 15,000 acres in

33:16Salem. They represent a unique threat to

33:19the community when it comes to wildland

33:20fires. Wildland fires in these areas

33:22threaten structures, lives, and

33:24businesses.

33:25Almost as all fires that start in these

33:27forests are caused by humans, whether

33:29carelessly, intentionally, or

33:31accidentally. Accidentally might be a

33:33down wire, an explosive uh explosion

33:35from a transformer.

33:37Uh mostly it's carelessness or um uh

33:40intentionally. In the case of the fires

33:42in Salem, it was carelessness. Uh most

33:44communities nationwide recognize this

33:46threat

33:47and regulate civilian activities in

33:49these wildland urban interface areas.

33:52Most do not allow campfires or campsites

33:54and the Salem Fire Department takes this

33:56position.

33:58Um I'll show you the first picture here.

34:00This is uh in October of 2024.

34:04The fire started up on Cain Hill. Behind

34:06Cain Hill is a cell tower. There's a

34:08little swallow there where there was a

34:09gentleman camping and the fire started

34:12in that vicinity.

34:13Came up past this the cell tower and

34:15then raced down behind Lion's Lane. This

34:17is about 3 hours into the fire. As you

34:19can see, it's a pretty horrific scene.

34:23Uh Lion's Lane was under threat for 5

34:24days. Uh we saw enormous fires and most

34:27of the time when they flared up it took

34:29close to 100 firefighters to keep them

34:31contained.

34:33Kenhill fire wall Walmart Lions Lane,

34:35that's the same fire I'm talking about.

34:37It burned for 30 days.

34:39Um 165 acres were consumed in Salem

34:42alone.

34:43If you remember correctly, the smoke was

34:44horrific. It reached even as far away as

34:46Boston. Uh it burned into Salem, excuse

34:49burned from Salem into Peabody and Lynn.

34:52And they saw over 60 acres burned burned

34:55combined between those two communities.

34:58Uh it demanded resources like never

34:59before. We expended hundreds and

35:01hundreds of hours of overtime cost.

35:04We exhausted our regional mutual aid. We

35:06even called in for state task force on

35:08four different times four different

35:10occasions where they brought in 40 to 60

35:12firefighters, 10 to 15 vehicles,

35:15tankers, all the mass to help us in

35:18contain these fires. Uh the state

35:19deployed the National Guard on three

35:21days three different days with the

35:23helicopter to contain the fires.

35:26Another fire that that that Oh, excuse

35:28me, I'll I'll back up. But the fire I

35:30mentioned that started up off of Kenne

35:32Road, the state Department of

35:33Conservation and Recreation DCR

35:35fire personnel went up to that location

35:38um several weeks after the fire and able

35:40to pinpoint a V pattern at location

35:43where the fire did start. Basic fire

35:45investigation teaches us when we go into

35:47a room that burned out

35:49and we remove all the debris, you can

35:51generally see where the fire burned and

35:52it burns up in a V pattern. Same would

35:55be told for a fire coming from the

35:57woods. In the night the fire started

35:58here, the breeze was out of the

36:00southwest and the fire burned in a V

36:02pattern away from that spot. It points

36:04to right where the fire started and it

36:06pointed to that encampment. All right,

36:08this encampment was um like the the the

36:12campsite occupant was instructed to

36:14leave the area several days earlier, but

36:15he returned. Uh despite the dry

36:17conditions and extreme fire risk, no

36:20ordinance authorized anybody to remove

36:22him.

36:23Uh Salem Woods, this was the second

36:25fire. It started 4 days after the first

36:27Cane Hill fire started. Uh I got the

36:30call around 11:00 that they were

36:32receiving information about a fire

36:33behind Pequot Highlands.

36:35The first fire down on the bottom left,

36:37the fire photo was taken from Pope

36:39Street on the roof at 2:00 a.m. I took

36:41that photo.

36:42Um the next fire photo was at 5:00 a.m.

36:45The fire burned out of the woods and all

36:47the way down to First Street where

36:48eventually stopped at the hot tub on

36:50that car. It's right on First Street

36:52that you can see there.

36:53And then um over to your right you see

36:55one of the encampments that was there.

36:57Um

36:59The location was basically off of

37:01Federal Court which is a small street

37:03off of First uh First Street. And I

37:05mention this because the only way we

37:06could get in there without climbing up a

37:08rock face was to climb around it. And

37:11when we climbed around the rock face not

37:12knowing cuz it was dark, there was an

37:1480-ft drop to our left. Extremely

37:17hazardous. And And that's the type of

37:18situation you run into when we have to

37:20enter these woods to deal with these

37:22problems. Problems that could have

37:23possibly been avoided. The following day

37:25when the state task force came in, we

37:27had a belay line there and everybody had

37:28to clip in to walk along that that

37:30cliff. So it was a dangerous night and

37:32we didn't even know the danger we were

37:33in. So again, I'll go back to the V

37:35pattern. Uh early on I was part of this

37:37effort with DCR there. Uh it was about

37:403:00 in the morning and we traced the

37:42whole fire line back in a V pattern. The

37:45wind was out of the southeast and there

37:46was an encampment with five tents in the

37:48fire came right out of that encampment.

37:50So it was pretty simple investigation

37:52and I'm sorry to keep laying blame on

37:54these encampments, but most of these

37:56people were advised by police not to be

37:57there and not to camp and they stayed

38:00and we didn't have any authority to

38:01remove them and we had it pleaded with

38:03them to be very careful. In both cases

38:05they weren't. This fire burned 96 acres

38:09in the Salem woods over 24 days. The

38:11National Guard contained it in an area

38:13that was approaching the condominiums

38:15um

38:16behind Home Depot and all those off of

38:18Bengal Lane and so forth. Uh without

38:20that effort it would have been difficult

38:21to contain the fire. This photo here

38:24shows another encampment, um one that we

38:26visited and we asked asked them to

38:29contain their fire pit and so forth. You

38:30can clearly see that the fire pit is

38:32still there. They tell you they don't

38:33burn and then you go back in two nights

38:35and they're they're burning. And and

38:37when you have dry conditions, it's the

38:38hazards we deal with.

38:40Um it's not the not safe to camp in a

38:42wildland urban interface area. Those

38:45areas possess a significant fire risk.

38:47The greatest concern of small fires that

38:49will get out of control and accidentally

38:51spread into larger areas and cause what

38:53we had in 2024.

38:552024, I won't read this whole paragraph,

38:57but it basically summarizes what we

38:59dealt with. We tried to get these people

39:01to contain their their fires or not use

39:03them at all and it and it was to no

39:04avail.

39:05Um these activities continue today. I

39:07would dare say the known campsites, um

39:10if we went up there at certain times,

39:12they're burning.

39:14Um and then I won't read this slide.

39:16This is from the FPA. It basically

39:18summarizes everything I just said. Uh

39:20all these areas all these key areas one

39:22through six are are

39:24exactly relevant here in the city of

39:26Salem and and and I need to make that

39:29point.

39:31Um our justifications,

39:33uh Salem wildland urban interface areas

39:36create unnecessary and potentially

39:38serious public safety risks. We cannot

39:40simply put our homeless in the woods.

39:42Activities commonly associated with

39:44camping including campfires, cooking,

39:46smoking, and the use of with heating

39:48equipment will increase the likelihood

39:50of another accidental ignition. Recent

39:52history has shown that in 2024,

39:55these fires will always work from the

39:57transition zones into the residential

39:59zones and those are big problems for the

40:00people that have to live there.

40:03Um this is the second part of my

40:04presentation and this one might get a

40:07little

40:08I don't know, disturbing, but this is

40:10the reality and some of my firefighters

40:12were compelled to bring this information

40:14to me in in a more graphic way which

40:16I've I've toned down a little.

40:18Um it was tough going into some of these

40:20encampments, not because these people

40:22were challenge were horrible people or

40:23anything. It was just the the living

40:24quality

40:25um living conditions and it approached

40:27squalid conditions. It was just

40:29horrible, and not just here in the South

40:31River, but all over the city. Uh police

40:33officers, firefighters, and emergency

40:35medical personnel face a wide range of

40:37safety and health risks when responding

40:39to emergencies in homeless encampments.

40:41These risks can be especially serious in

40:42wooded areas, parks, empty lots, and

40:45areas with limited access. These

40:47locations lack back basic sanitation,

40:49water, safe heating, electricity,

40:52adequate access to emergency vehicles.

40:54Existing conditions in the camps can

40:56change quickly, whether it's creating un

40:59un unpredictable and potentially

41:00dangerous situations for both the

41:02individuals living there and the public

41:03safety personnel representing those who

41:06assist them. Long-term dangerous

41:08conditions worsen worsen exponentially

41:11as time goes on in these encampments. As

41:13um some like to say, your worst your

41:15best day is your first day. Well, the

41:16same would be told for these

41:17encampments. The best day is the first

41:19day they set up. After that, it's just

41:21it's downhill from there.

41:24Uh I'd like everybody to take a close

41:26look at this photo, and I'm going to run

41:27a scenario by you. Um our firefighters

41:30get a call at 2:00 in the morning. It's

41:32a rainy February morning.

41:34Uh an unresponsive person, possibly

41:36close uh out of the South South River

41:38campsite. Uh they walk in from behind

41:41Walmart, and they have to render care.

41:43They have to kneel down in this re pile

41:44re pile and take this person out of

41:46there and render care. Fortunately, it

41:49it was not a serious medical aid, but

41:51that was a real call. And this was the

41:53reality. This is what we saw. Not saying

41:56that it's there's an easy answer to

41:58this, but unless we come up with better

42:00ideas, better solutions, ways to

42:02regulate this process, this cannot be

42:04allowed to happen again.

42:07Uh I'll direct your attention to the

42:08photo on the right. Some of the hazards

42:10we saw were real. Open fires used for

42:13cooking and heating, propane cylinders,

42:15portable heaters, candles, and probably

42:17stored fuels. They all created a

42:19significant risk.

42:22Obviously, those propane tanks in that

42:24condition, if there was a fire there, it

42:26could it could be dangerous. And they're

42:28not standing upright. Getting a little

42:30technical, propane containers have

42:33pressure relief devices if they're

42:34standing upright. If they're on their

42:35side, the devices won't relieve and they

42:37the canister will explode. And then I'll

42:40point to the tent behind it. And the

42:41scenario we found when we entered these

42:43tents is they were using 1-lb cylinders

42:45and portable heaters to heat the tent.

42:48And in one instance, there was over 20

42:50cylinders in the tent. If you were to

42:52have a fire in that tent, the explosions

42:54from even one 1-lber could be

42:56catastrophic and life-changing.

42:58Uh challenging.

43:00And then lastly, this is a kind of an

43:02upsetting photo cuz this was taken right

43:04off the nature trail in Salem Woods.

43:05Responders have counted discarded

43:07needles, drug paraphernalia, human

43:09waste,

43:10contaminated chemicals, unknown

43:12substances. These conditions increase

43:14the potential for accident and

43:16accidental needle sticks, infections,

43:17and harmful exposures.

43:20Again, some more photos from from Salem

43:22Woods. All this debris can contribute to

43:24injuries, the broken glass, the sharp

43:26structures, the hidden holes, um

43:29large depressions in the earth, debris

43:31piles. This is all dangerous conditions

43:33that exist right here in Salem. And they

43:35exist in areas where our firefighters

43:37and EMTs and police officers have had to

43:39go in and provide care to members of

43:40this community.

43:42Um infectious disease. This is the one

43:44that was that was prepared for me by one

43:47of my members. Limited access to clean

43:48water, toilets, bathing facilities, and

43:51waste disposal can create

43:54Uh I have a block slide here. When

43:56providing aid, responders encounter

43:58bodily fluids, contaminated surface,

44:00exposed feces, infestations, and

44:03individuals with untreated illnesses

44:05requiring additional protective

44:06measures. Pretty graphic description,

44:09but that's what they experience and it's

44:11horrible that people had to live in

44:12these conditions and we need to do

44:14better for them and we need to protect

44:15our public safety. Um an example that

44:18was made um exposed fecal matter

44:20contains many pathogens. One of the most

44:23is Shigella, which is a highly

44:25contagious bacterium that causes severe

44:27intestinal issues. It spreads through

44:29contact with mic- microscopic amounts of

44:31fecal matter, which exists in almost all

44:34of our camps. Uh you don't have to be a

44:36rocket scientist to know what you're

44:37smelling when you go to these campsites.

44:39Uh I had four members of my department

44:41last December come down with Shigella

44:43and all of them were stationed uh not

44:45last December, the December before. All

44:46of them were stationed at headquarters.

44:48Uh they all made a good recovery, but it

44:50was just too coincidental that that many

44:51of them came down with something and I

44:53think they may have been exposed through

44:55just their medical aid services.

44:57Our medical personnel frequently respond

44:59to serious medical conditions in the

45:00encampments

45:02including overdoses, cardiac and

45:04respiratory emergencies, hypothermia,

45:06heat-related illnesses, traumatic

45:07injuries, and unrelated chronic

45:09conditions.

45:10The dangers to respond as are obvious

45:12and real. I showed you the photos.

45:14Um our public statement and and this is

45:17this is where all end. It is the

45:18position of the Salem Fire Department

45:20that all encampments, particularly those

45:21located in woods and difficult to access

45:23areas,

45:24regardless present significant safety

45:26hazard for firefighters and emergency

45:28medical personnel, police officers, and

45:30the public.

45:31These locations force responders to

45:34operate in unpredictable environments

45:36where they encounter discarded needles,

45:37hazardous materials, human waste, uns-

45:40unstable shelters, debris piles, and

45:42other dangers. Contributing factors to

45:44the dangers include limited access, poor

45:47visibility, and difficult terrain. I

45:49mentioned the cliff and how we were all

45:51forced to walk the cliff to go in and

45:52help these people. It's a really it's a

45:54reality.

45:55Of most concern are the encampments

45:57located within wildlife urban interface

45:59areas where all the above complicate all

46:02the above conditions may exist and

46:04uncontrolled fires quickly spread beyond

46:06the encampments threatening surrounding

46:08neighborhoods, private property and

46:10public safety personnel. These

46:12conditions underscore the importance of

46:14an effective camping ordinance that

46:16prohibits camping in all wildland urban

46:19interface areas and prevents unregulated

46:22encampments that promote unsafe living

46:24conditions.

46:25Uh thank you for your attention.

46:28>> Thank you, Chief.

46:30Um any other city officials before we

46:31get into questions?

46:34Not seeing none. So, what I think we'll

46:35do here is uh

46:38ask any questions that we might have of

46:39our guests here including

46:41including Mr. Whitehead.

46:43Um

46:43and then uh Council Davis has uh drafted

46:46an ordinance. We can sort of talk about

46:48the the basics of of of what he's

46:50proposing here.

46:52Talk about that at a high level and then

46:53if the committee decides they want to

46:54dig into the into the ordinance, we can

46:56do that as well. Um

46:58anytime along the way if we have

46:59questions for um our guests here, we can

47:01we can ask those questions as well.

47:03Um so, I'll start with uh questions from

47:05the council.

47:07Councilor Davis.

47:09>> Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Chief

47:10Dion, for the presentation. Um wanted to

47:12thank Donald as well um and ask Donald

47:15uh a question. I'm glad that he was able

47:17to see the the presentation we just were

47:19as well from uh Chief Dion.

47:21Um is Donald still with us?

47:25>> Oh, yes, I'm still here.

47:26>> Okay, so you're still with us and I'm

47:27going to unmute him as soon as you ask

47:28your question just so we don't get an

47:29echo.

47:30>> Yeah.

47:30Um

47:32yeah, just I just wanted to hear your

47:34your perspective um after seeing that

47:36presentation. I guess um I'm wondering

47:39just in your

47:41expertise and and knowing so much about

47:43how different communities have kind of

47:45taken these challenges on.

47:47Um obviously, I think we can all agree

47:50we don't want to make it any harder for

47:52um

47:53our our fire department to

47:55um

47:56you know, achieve public safety. We

47:57don't want to make it any easier for

48:00um,

48:01for fire hazards to happen. We also want

48:03to have uh, the most humane um,

48:06approach possible um, for our unhoused

48:09neighbors. And I guess I it would be

48:10great to hear from you if you think both

48:13of those goals are achievable

48:15simultaneously and if there's any kind

48:17of

48:18um,

48:19anything you would point to of of any

48:22other ordinances or other approaches in

48:24other communities where they've been

48:25able to to be successful uh,

48:27um, with those uh, two goals.

48:30>> Sure, there's there's a number of

48:32successful communities across the

48:34country and the kind of uh, thread line

48:39between those communities is they have

48:41invested heavily in affordable housing

48:44production. So, if people are housed,

48:48uh, none of the things that the uh, fire

48:50uh, chief talked about exist.

48:53Um, and uh, I would also um,

48:56uh, say that one of the big things he

48:59talked about um, the dangers around

49:02fecal matter are certainly uh, clear and

49:05present uh, when people are sleeping

49:07outside. And and so, one of the remedies

49:09communities have found for that was to

49:11increase the number of public bathrooms.

49:14Uh, part of the reason why that happens

49:16with people experiencing homelessness is

49:18we have a severe lack of public

49:20restrooms and many

49:22uh, vendors at restaurants and other

49:24places don't allow people in. Uh, one of

49:27the things that uh, we have seen

49:29effective is excuse me, the tiny home

49:33model um, that uh, has uh, a a

49:38uh, bathroom facility attached to it.

49:40But, we've also seen an investment in

49:42adaptive reuse. Uh, I know in Salem I've

49:46spent a lot of time in Massachusetts.

49:48Uh, there there are abandoned buildings

49:50uh, owned by the city many times, uh

49:53that can be utilized

49:55uh for shelter. Uh again, as I said in

49:58my presentation, we don't want people

49:59sleeping outside, either. And uh when

50:02you house people, the cost for all of

50:05the things that were mentioned by the

50:07fire chief go down. Uh if people aren't

50:10living outside and they have a roof over

50:12their heads, those calls dramatically

50:15decrease. There's multiple studies that

50:18show that the most effective solution

50:22uh to to homelessness, to the cost of

50:24the fire department, to the danger to

50:26the fire department, to the cost to the

50:28police department is the housing first

50:31model. So, if you provide people with

50:33housing, almost all of the things that

50:35were mentioned are are absolutely

50:38reduced. Um

50:39there's also Now, I'm on the fence about

50:42this but but I you know, as we're

50:44talking about solutions, there is the

50:46the the idea of uh sanctioned

50:50encampments

50:51uh that are encampments that are

50:53regulated by uh a city government um

50:57that does um have some uh staff that

51:02make sure that fires aren't being lit or

51:05uh that people um have access to a

51:07restroom uh and there's some order in

51:10place. So, those are some things that

51:12other communities have done that have

51:14been very effective, but the most

51:16effective is supportive housing, uh

51:18permanent supportive housing.

51:23>> Councilor Davis.

51:24>> Thank you very much. Um

51:26while I have you, the the other question

51:28I just wanted to touch on and then I'll

51:30uh open the floor.

51:31Um

51:32I think the the present Thank you for

51:34the presentation. Um I think it gave us

51:36a really good um

51:38sense of things nationally. I think for

51:39us in Salem, some of it was relevant to

51:41us.

51:42Um some of it, especially with with

51:43arrests, you know, in our last meeting

51:45we talked about um there's been very few

51:47arrests, um, of unhoused people. So,

51:49just kind of narrowing it into

51:52our context and what we're discussing

51:53tonight,

51:55um, I don't know if you've had a a

51:56chance to kind of look at our

51:57amendments, um, but I was just curious

51:59if you had any thoughts specifically on

52:01those,

52:02um,

52:03I I guess as a a refresher we're, um,

52:06we're talking about things like, um,

52:08narrowing the 15-mile radius, um, right

52:11now in our ordinance, um,

52:13someone can be removed if there's an

52:16available shelter bed, um, up to 15

52:18miles away. Um, we're talking about, um,

52:21the possibility for arrest to happen.

52:24Um, we're talking about, um,

52:27limiting the kind of exception language

52:29where, uh,

52:31the police department, um, public health

52:33officials can say even in a a period

52:35when shelter's unavailable, um, people

52:38need to be moved and and just wanting to

52:40have some

52:42uh, clarity around that language to to

52:44know exactly what kind of situations

52:46we're talking about. Um, and just the

52:49fourth one being, um,

52:51right now someone when they're asked to

52:52move they have a 24-hour,

52:55um, window,

52:56um, and the amendment, um,

52:59the intent behind it is to to make that

53:00a little bit longer. If you have any

53:02thoughts, um, to share on on those, I

53:04think that'd be really helpful for us.

53:05Thank you.

53:06>> I do have thoughts on those. First of

53:08all, the time limit I think is, uh,

53:11a um,

53:12very problematic for someone who

53:15basically has everything in their

53:17possession,

53:18uh, in a a small area tent. Sometimes,

53:21sometimes they only have a tent. Um, I

53:24think you need to provide them we we,

53:27um, fought in Washington D.C. to have

53:30that, uh, be at least 3 weeks. Uh, and I

53:34know, uh, for a lot of people that may

53:36be a pretty long stretch, but it allows

53:39people to,

53:41uh, to reconnect with relatives or um,

53:44uh,

53:45finish the process that they are already

53:47involved in to get into

53:49permanent housing or get into some type

53:52of temporary housing. I think it's it's

53:55kind of uh

53:56inhumane to to do, you know, 24 hours. I

53:59think that is uh

54:01uh really really cruel, um in in my

54:04opinion. Um I also think the 15-mile

54:07radius uh is is something that is is

54:10absolutely problematic.

54:12Uh most of these individuals don't have

54:15transportation.

54:17And um

54:18I think uh having the door open

54:21uh for that kind of

54:24uh that kind of language uh is very

54:27problematic and gives people really it

54:29it it sounds like uh

54:32in practice it might give people an

54:34option to be able to

54:36uh to to move people regardless of of

54:39their conditions and and their own

54:42individual situation. So uh I do find

54:45that to be uh uh problematic as well.

54:49Um

54:49you know, the the premise of the fight

54:52in Oregon uh which became a Supreme

54:55Court decision was about whether or not

54:57shelter was available. You know, who

54:59monitors that? You know, how can you um

55:03uh how does the person experiencing

55:05homelessness or the law enforcement

55:06officer know that? So um we we should

55:10work on the premise that there's no

55:11shelter available. So there shouldn't be

55:13a condition related to shelter

55:16availability. And if that is the case,

55:19um

55:20uh it it should not have a a language in

55:23it that is almost impossible for the

55:26person to be able to adequately uh

55:30maneuver. Um you know, if you're walking

55:3315 miles is an eternity.

55:35Um and and so um I think that that the

55:38amendments that you've presented are

55:40very reasonable, rational, and and and

55:42also bring some compassion to the issue.

55:45Uh, I think we all are saying the same

55:47thing. People should not have to live

55:49outside.

55:50Uh, and if they do, they shouldn't be

55:52penalized for living outside. But, there

55:54are some some difficulties

55:56uh, when people are living outside that

55:58we we have to look at as well.

56:06>> Thank you, Mr. Whitehead. All right. Any

56:07other questions from the council

56:09or our guests?

56:12Let's see none.

56:14Um,

56:15thank you, Mr. Whitehead. You're welcome

56:16to to to hang on here and and and stay

56:19stick around in the meeting. And if if

56:20people have questions, we can bring you

56:21back in here and or you're welcome to

56:24um, to depart. Up to you.

56:26>> Well, thank you. No, just just

56:28>> Uh, okay.

56:29>> Just want to add real quickly

56:30>> Councilor Davis, he wants he's drafted a

56:32few amendments that he would like to

56:33have discussed in this meeting here. Um,

56:35so, Councilor Davis, you want to go

56:36through um, what those amendments are?

56:40Seeing that these weren't printed for

56:41you all, uh, apologies. Uh, I've emailed

56:44them all to you. Um, it's not the ideal

56:46way to do that here, but I just want to

56:47make sure that you guys have something

56:48in front of you to look at. Um,

56:50if you're able to.

56:52Uh, so, Councilor Davis, I'll turn it

56:53over to you.

56:54>> Thank you, Chair. Does it make sense to

56:55go one at a time or you prefer

56:58>> Um, up to you. You can talk about just

57:00the the general rationale that you were

57:01thinking about and then and then and

57:03then sort of bucket them out, the ones

57:04that you were looking at. And if

57:06uh, we can hand it over to the council

57:08and see if it's

57:09um,

57:10if it's the will of the body to dig

57:12deeper on them or just to discuss uh,

57:14discuss these right now. So, if you want

57:16to go

57:17>> Sure.

57:18Um,

57:19yeah, so I I think some some things have

57:21been touched on already. So, the first

57:23first amendment um,

57:25is on the very first page.

57:27Um, it strikes out or within 15 miles

57:30from the nearest border of Salem.

57:32Um, what we heard in our last meeting

57:34um, was that

57:36it is it doesn't seem to be the case at

57:38all that that there's an attempt to um

57:41to partner individuals with shelter

57:44outside of Salem.

57:46It just doesn't seem like something that

57:47makes sense as we heard from Captain

57:49Burke. And I think Donald touched on

57:53these things as well. My concern

57:55with this, you know, of course, people

57:57want to be

57:59notified about shelter that is up to 50

58:01miles away or even further, that's

58:03fantastic.

58:04To use it as an excuse to remove people

58:06is something I'm really worried about

58:07for the for the reasons that were

58:09discussed, right? Lack of

58:10transportation,

58:11the fact that over over half of unhoused

58:13people

58:15have employment most likely in Salem or

58:17nearby.

58:19And that a shelter up to 50 miles

58:22is not an appropriate fit for that for

58:24most individuals.

58:25>> [clears throat]

58:25>> Would you be okay if we pause real quick

58:26there and hear from our public safety

58:28people who are enforcing on the ground

58:29about the about the 15-mile radius just

58:31to get some context on that? Uh

58:33Captain Burke, I don't know if you're

58:34able to discuss the

58:36the available shelter within 15 minutes.

58:39I'm sorry, within 15-mile radius of

58:41Salem.

58:42And how that I guess more specifically

58:44how how often that is used and and and

58:46what that looks like and what

58:47transportation looks like to those

58:49locations if we use them.

58:50>> Yeah, so for all practical purposes,

58:54we utilize Lifebridge. We don't have any

58:56other nearby shelters that are offering

58:58space for us. That is correct.

59:01Um you know, there's we rely on

59:03Lifebridge and Jason and his

59:04organization to help us and

59:06you know, sometimes we can get someone

59:08into the Beverly, the women's shelter,

59:10but that's through Lifebridge.

59:12Other than that, I have had no success.

59:15It is it is

59:16within the borders of Salem.

59:19>> Is it your view that this is a

59:21valuable thing to to keep in the

59:23ordinance or is it I guess what is the

59:26what is the thought process around that?

59:30>> I mean I

59:31Like I said, practical purposes, it's

59:33Lifebridge.

59:35If things would develop later, I would

59:37love to be able to utilize an out of

59:39town shelter if something developed. I I

59:41think I said that at the last meeting. I

59:43strongly believe that we need a regional

59:44approach to this.

59:46Um I wouldn't want to lock myself in if

59:48something was opened up in PBD or or

59:50another community that I couldn't

59:51utilize that.

59:53Um but as it stands right now, um you

59:56know, we rely upon Lifebridge for our

59:58shelter needs.

59:59>> If that Sorry, I don't just ask one more

1:00:00follow-up question here. If if a uh

1:00:03let's say a shelter were to open up in

1:00:05Marblehead, uh would you would you uh

1:00:08would you

1:00:08>> Yes, I would use it.

1:00:09>> create transport Would transportation be

1:00:11provided to Marblehead um from Salem or

1:00:13what would that look like?

1:00:15>> I'd get people to Marblehead.

1:00:16>> Yeah. So in in in general, say let's say

1:00:19Lynn or uh PBD uh

1:00:22is is the is the message to our unhoused

1:00:25neighbors

1:00:27you can't be here because there's a

1:00:28shelter in Lynn, you need to go to Lynn,

1:00:30or is it

1:00:32um

1:00:33do you work with them to ensure that

1:00:34they get there? I'm just curious as to

1:00:35how that works.

1:00:37>> I mean we we've given people rides very

1:00:39limited in the past and it's usually to

1:00:41Lifebridge. Um it hasn't been out out of

1:00:44the borders generally.

1:00:46Uh maybe once or twice to Beverly.

1:00:49Um and it's not something we would be

1:00:51able to do like on a regular regular

1:00:53basis. We're not a transportation

1:00:55company, but we would do it for someone

1:00:57if they needed it.

1:00:58>> Okay, so case by case basis.

1:01:00>> Case by case.

1:01:02>> Yeah, and I just wanted to mention I

1:01:03know there was a an exchange between

1:01:05counselor um King and yourself uh at our

1:01:07last um meeting where counselor King

1:01:09brought up um

1:01:11the question of would it be perhaps um

1:01:15uh

1:01:16helpful for our ordinance to more

1:01:18accurately

1:01:20uh describe the actual policies of the

1:01:22police, right? So, having this this

1:01:2415-mi radius um could lead to

1:01:27confusion and a and a misconception

1:01:29about what the actual and I I think

1:01:31um at the time you felt that that would

1:01:33be helpful.

1:01:34>> I guess I'll say I've never used the

1:01:3615-mi radius.

1:01:37>> Yeah.

1:01:38>> I I just to clarify, it it is

1:01:40Lifebridge.

1:01:41>> Yeah, and and

1:01:43just to finish that thought, I think the

1:01:46again, my my intent with this is not

1:01:47that hey, if there's a uh shelter bed

1:01:50that opens up in Marblehead, we

1:01:52shouldn't be letting folks know about

1:01:53that. An opportunity is an opportunity.

1:01:54If an individual wants to take us up on

1:01:56that, fantastic. Um I guess the issue

1:01:59that I take with the ordinance as it's

1:02:00written is that it appears as though

1:02:03if a shelter bed opens up in another

1:02:06community,

1:02:07that individual must now move, right?

1:02:09Regardless of whether that that shelter

1:02:12bed works for that individual.

1:02:20>> Is there any other I guess we'll stick

1:02:23on this here, right? If you want any

1:02:25other questions from the committee or

1:02:27the council, we can ask those questions

1:02:28on this item here if if it if it's

1:02:31relevant.

1:02:33Councilor Smith.

1:02:34>> Thanks, Chair. Um

1:02:36so, if the way this is written, as my

1:02:38understanding is that

1:02:41if shelter's available within 15 mi,

1:02:46then you can enforce that those aspects,

1:02:49can not must enforce those aspects of

1:02:53the camping ordinance.

1:02:54>> That's accurate.

1:02:55>> And so, if

1:02:58it sounds like you've never

1:03:00in the in the past couple of past year

1:03:02plus of this,

1:03:04uh

1:03:05not even a year maybe a year with this

1:03:06version, um you've never identified

1:03:09shelter in any other community.

1:03:11>> No, the way it So, our relationship with

1:03:14Lifebridge, we know kind of where their

1:03:17beds are at on a daily basis. We can

1:03:19have a discussion with them.

1:03:22With places like Lynn or other

1:03:24communities, they're moving people in

1:03:25and out of those organi- those bed

1:03:27numbers change all the time.

1:03:29And it's not something I'll ever really

1:03:31have them on like speed dial type of

1:03:34thing.

1:03:35Um so because this only

1:03:38prohibits you from

1:03:40from enforcing the camping ordinance

1:03:43um in certain ways

1:03:46when beds are not available.

1:03:49Does losing this make a difference

1:03:52in your opinion

1:03:53to this ordinance? Not at not at this

1:03:56Not at not at this time.

1:03:59But in the future, should we start to

1:04:00have a more regional approach, we'd

1:04:02probably want to go back and revisit it

1:04:04if we need to. I I would absolutely

1:04:06support that. Thanks.

1:04:10Councilor King.

1:04:12Thank you, Chair Hepworth. Not being a

1:04:14member of the committee, um I just have

1:04:15a question about the cases where someone

1:04:18has been moved to the Riverhouse

1:04:19facility in Beverly. In those

1:04:21situations, was that um was that at the

1:04:25was it just cuz it was where the

1:04:26available bed was? For I know the

1:04:27Riverhouse facility is a women's only

1:04:29shelter. So because it just it happened

1:04:31to be a woman and that was where the

1:04:32available bed was, or was it a situation

1:04:34where the individual felt significantly

1:04:36more comfortable in a women's only

1:04:38shelter?

1:04:39It's hard for me to say, Councilor. It's

1:04:41um

1:04:42I can't even tell you if it was ever a

1:04:44like a

1:04:45campsite removal type thing. It's just

1:04:48over the years we've sent people there.

1:04:49>> Okay, great.

1:04:51>> And a lot of times it is cuz

1:04:53cuz

1:04:54the women feel more comfortable there.

1:04:55>> Okay, great. Thank you. It sounds like

1:04:57still could be moved there in in a

1:04:59situation where a woman felt more

1:05:00comfortable and there was a bed, but it

1:05:01wouldn't impact how this would get

1:05:04implemented. Okay, thank you.

1:05:07>> Councilor Smith.

1:05:08>> Coming back again. Thanks, Chair. Um

1:05:10but this does this doesn't prohibit

1:05:12people. If somebody says, "Look, I'm

1:05:13from Worcester. I want to go back to

1:05:14Worcester." and the police can get them

1:05:16there, police can get them there. This

1:05:18is just about enforcing the ordinance.

1:05:20And so, it it it actually would create

1:05:22an awkward situation where if a bed were

1:05:25available in River House, we would say,

1:05:27"Well, now we can enforce the camping

1:05:28ordinance on men,

1:05:30but not women, cuz there's a bed

1:05:32available."

1:05:33And then you have to figure that all

1:05:34out. So, it it it is kind of

1:05:36complicated.

1:05:38It seems to me like this may not be

1:05:39serving the purpose currently that it

1:05:42was intended to, and it may make things

1:05:44a lot easier to focus ourselves on Salem

1:05:46until we get a regional approach, but

1:05:49um I appreciate that. Thanks.

1:05:52>> Councilor LaPointe.

1:05:53>> Thank you, Chair Hapworth. Thank you,

1:05:55Captain, for having back with us. I am

1:05:57trying to remember something that you

1:05:58had said, I think it was to one of the

1:06:00answers to my questions. There were a

1:06:01lot of them. I don't remember all the

1:06:02answers.

1:06:03You had mentioned that in your

1:06:05experience working with unhoused

1:06:07individuals, when when you're trying

1:06:10you know, inform them that there is

1:06:12shelter available that they can move to,

1:06:14can you remind me what you said your

1:06:16experience was in those situations

1:06:17typically? Are the folks willing to

1:06:19move? Are they tend to be very against

1:06:21it? Does it tend to be case-by-case?

1:06:23>> Um

1:06:25it's case-by-case.

1:06:27A lot don't want to move. Some

1:06:30say, "Put me in the college. Let's go."

1:06:31It it's it's They're all different.

1:06:34>> If I'm remembering correctly, it's

1:06:3690-something, I think, cases where in

1:06:38the last couple years you have been able

1:06:39to find someone shelter. And do you know

1:06:42Do you have a a memory of Was Was most

1:06:44of that very interested, or did you have

1:06:46to sort of like pull some teeth to make

1:06:48some of those happen?

1:06:49>> So, when you when you're talking about

1:06:50like those 92 kind of move-along

1:06:53notices, uh those were pretty much all

1:06:56when the overflow was open.

1:06:58Um and that was

1:07:00widely known that where it was and and

1:07:02how to get there and how to avail

1:07:04yourself of the services.

1:07:05Uh we didn't have to do much explaining

1:07:07to people on what that resource was. It

1:07:09was readily available. Readily available

1:07:10and known to the people.

1:07:12>> Sorry. So, to to reiterate, when there

1:07:14was a readily available, well-known

1:07:16shelter that was available in the

1:07:17community, people were willing and

1:07:19interested to to partake of that

1:07:21generally.

1:07:21>> So, sometimes. Yeah, it's uh

1:07:25>> Okay. Thank you.

1:07:28>> Councilor Merkle.

1:07:31>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth, for not being

1:07:33a member of the committee. And thank you

1:07:34for the the two presentations. They were

1:07:37helpful. Yeah, I'm just not sure

1:07:40why we want to eliminate it and lock

1:07:44ourselves in to not having flexibility,

1:07:46including for the people that you're

1:07:48trying to assist, you know, that might

1:07:50want to go outside of Salem. I know I

1:07:53was going to bring up River House as

1:07:54well. I know they're in the process of

1:07:57expanding

1:07:58uh in Beverly um exponentially. And they

1:08:01are one of the women are also one of the

1:08:04fastest-growing demographics of unhoused

1:08:07folks.

1:08:08Uh so, I I

1:08:10I don't see this as anything as helpful.

1:08:11It doesn't mean that

1:08:13someone has to, you know,

1:08:16does somebody has to leave Salem? I know

1:08:18you use your discretion and work with

1:08:20people to where they want to land. They

1:08:23might have a relative somewhere.

1:08:25So, I don't see why this um is a

1:08:28hindrance to assisting people that it's

1:08:32broader than Salem. And we also we could

1:08:34say we we could revisit it, but things

1:08:36can be very fluid, especially in this

1:08:38field, and other options could open.

1:08:40Uh so, I I see this as flexibility.

1:08:44Thank you.

1:08:47>> Councilor Davis.

1:08:48>> Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I um

1:08:52I'm I'm I'm having a foggy memory of uh

1:08:54talking to another councilor about this

1:08:56at one point who

1:08:57who brought up why not change it to 5

1:08:59miles, right? Which I think again could

1:09:01be very reasonable. I think the 15 miles

1:09:03in particular, right? We're telling

1:09:04someone,

1:09:05um "Hey, there's an opening in it." And

1:09:08to be clear, we're not doing this,

1:09:09right? Um but on paper, we could say,

1:09:12"There's a shelter in South Boston.

1:09:14There's a shelter in Newburyport." Um

1:09:17now that there is

1:09:19one single bed available for you there,

1:09:21we're now enforcing that you have to

1:09:24leave where you are in Salem in the next

1:09:2512 hours, right? So, I think

1:09:28I would love to make it just Salem.

1:09:29That's what I wrote here, but 15 miles

1:09:31in particular

1:09:33is a little ludicrous.

1:09:37>> Councilor Alape.

1:09:39>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth. And I'm just

1:09:40realizing my mic has been on this whole

1:09:41time.

1:09:42Um

1:09:44I would definitely be in support of

1:09:46removing this. I think 15 miles seems

1:09:48really long. And from my understanding

1:09:50of how this ordinance is written, I

1:09:51think this is what Counselor or two

1:09:53Counselor was mentioning, is that this

1:09:54is really a trigger

1:09:57for

1:09:58when emergency shelter space is

1:10:00available, and that means that the

1:10:01city's allowed to do certain things. So,

1:10:03I don't think I don't think flexibility

1:10:05is maybe the best word for this.

1:10:08Um but I I see the value in what I think

1:10:11is is being talked about, which is that

1:10:12if there is space available somewhere

1:10:14that is nearby,

1:10:16uh and if the person is willing,

1:10:17interested, and able to make that work,

1:10:19of course, we should be able to provide

1:10:21them the information. You know, in this

1:10:23in this policy as written, we're we're

1:10:25mandated to get them transportation if

1:10:27we are actually to do that.

1:10:29Um

1:10:31if there's a reason an individual

1:10:32doesn't want to go to Burlington,

1:10:35this probably would cause more harm than

1:10:37good to forcefully move them to

1:10:39Burlington.

1:10:40Um you know, we don't like it when ICE

1:10:42does that. I don't know why we're

1:10:44accepting it when the city is deciding

1:10:46to do that.

1:10:47Um I think that, especially given this

1:10:49isn't really happening,

1:10:52I just find this to be more more of a

1:10:53humane way to just say, "If you're If

1:10:55you're going to force someone to move,

1:10:57we have to provide them a space within

1:10:58the city, within the community. I think

1:11:01that's the right thing to do. Thank you.

1:11:06Councilor King.

1:11:08>> Thank you, Chair. For not being a member

1:11:09of the committee, I think that um

1:11:12the ultimate goal for

1:11:15uh not only the members of the CIU, the

1:11:16folks in this room, the folks who

1:11:17presented

1:11:19is is the outcome, right? Is the outcome

1:11:21of helping people

1:11:23no longer be unhoused. And I think that

1:11:27um this ordinance I'm I'm going to wager

1:11:30that all of us agree that this ordinance

1:11:32does not solve that problem. I think

1:11:34it's just one one thing, and obviously

1:11:37like housing and

1:11:39all sorts of other things are like also

1:11:41need to be addressed. Um

1:11:43but there's no reason why this ordinance

1:11:45can't be written in such a way that has

1:11:47that end goal in mind, and I think that

1:11:50is more of the point with this change

1:11:52where you make it Salem only housing. Um

1:11:56I would say like a slightly looser

1:11:57version that still

1:11:59honors that would be like Salem and

1:12:00neighb- like directly neighboring

1:12:02communities could be another way to

1:12:03write it that would be still honoring

1:12:05the fact that we know, like the data

1:12:07shows that if you're going to force

1:12:09someone to move 13, 14, 15 miles away,

1:12:13that is going to severely hurt their

1:12:15long-term ability to no longer be

1:12:17unhoused. Like it just will. Like

1:12:19they're being disconnected from their

1:12:20local community,

1:12:22possibly from family, possibly from I I

1:12:24D cards and things that they may need.

1:12:27Keeping someone closer to where their

1:12:29support system is always will help them

1:12:32long-term

1:12:34exit the cycle of homelessness. So I

1:12:36think that is the point of this is like

1:12:39the language should A, it reflects what

1:12:41the police are already doing, so there's

1:12:43that. Um but the language also should

1:12:44reflect the the outcome that we all

1:12:47want, which is for people to be able to

1:12:50uh have the support structures that we

1:12:51can provide them, and in this case, it's

1:12:53as simple as just keeping them local is

1:12:54a support structure. That is a support

1:12:56structure we actually can provide with

1:12:58how we write this ordinance.

1:13:00>> Thank you. I'll just I'll just provide

1:13:02just a little bit of, uh,

1:13:04context if I could going back to 2024.

1:13:07Um,

1:13:08we did spend a lot of time on this

1:13:10section of the ordinance. Um, and I

1:13:12think there was a lot of feelings and

1:13:14thoughts about making sure that it was

1:13:15close to MBTA, making sure that it was

1:13:18should be within Salem, should be

1:13:19contiguous communities.

1:13:21Um, I think there was a general will at

1:13:23the time to ensure that, uh,

1:13:26to give us incentives as a community to

1:13:28keep tabs on other shelter space

1:13:31available in other communities to

1:13:33understand what was available, what

1:13:34wasn't available.

1:13:36And ultimately to move towards a more

1:13:38regional approach where

1:13:40neighboring communities were all

1:13:41supporting each other.

1:13:42That clearly has not happened. And I

1:13:44think that, you know, we we we call

1:13:46upon, you know, folks at levels above us

1:13:49to help us with that.

1:13:51Um, but I think that's the the spirit

1:13:53and the intent of the 15 miles was

1:13:55understanding that this is probably

1:13:57going to be Lifebridge going forward

1:13:58because they are they are partners to

1:14:00the city of Salem. They they're they're

1:14:02the ones that work with CIU typically.

1:14:04Um, but with a hope that we would keep

1:14:08tabs on what's happening in shelter

1:14:09space in other communities, uh, continue

1:14:11to look at this as the regional problem

1:14:12that it is.

1:14:14Um, but that's the thought. And then I

1:14:15think that, you know, what ultimately

1:14:17happened in practice is is the question

1:14:19which is that we continue to work with

1:14:21Lifebridge and the language in here is

1:14:22almost irrelevant.

1:14:24Um, but there seems to be a will on this

1:14:26body to at least have that conversation

1:14:28or that vote. Um,

1:14:30we can put a pin in this and move along

1:14:32on the rest of Councilor Davises'

1:14:34suggestions or if there's any more

1:14:35questions or comments, we can move

1:14:37forward with those as well. Councilor

1:14:39Halappa.

1:14:40>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth. There is one

1:14:42other point that I want to make with

1:14:43with this particular, uh, proposed

1:14:46amendment and then with this ordinance

1:14:47in general

1:14:49and that's I have a real fear that

1:14:52some folks of our unhoused community

1:14:54might have gotten the impression that

1:14:55this is like a really high stakes game

1:14:57of hide and seek

1:14:58where what's actually driving people

1:15:01into the woods and into these areas that

1:15:03like are harder to access and more

1:15:05dangerous is like this perceived threat

1:15:07of being sent 15 miles away from their

1:15:10community if they are found. And I think

1:15:13that's something that we should be wary

1:15:15of when we're when we're

1:15:17creating the policy around this of what

1:15:19is what is we think well faith good

1:15:21faith policy and what ends up being

1:15:24perhaps a threat that was not at all

1:15:26intended or meant but it's perhaps

1:15:28sometime sometimes perceived by people

1:15:30who are going through some really hard

1:15:32times.

1:15:33Um, so that's just something I I would

1:15:35encourage us all to think about as we're

1:15:36as we're going through this. Thank you.

1:15:40>> Councilor Flynn.

1:15:42>> Thank you, Chair Hatworth.

1:15:44Um, thank you, Chief Dionne and Captain

1:15:46Burke. Um, I appreciate you both being

1:15:48here answering questions.

1:15:50Um, it was it was good to hear from

1:15:51Captain Burke um, basically telling us

1:15:55that, you know, anyone that they've

1:15:56placed it's all been through Lifebridge

1:15:58or using the women's shelter in Beverly.

1:16:01And and it's great that that's working

1:16:03out right now.

1:16:05It but like he said,

1:16:07I'd like to keep the options open for

1:16:09them. They they're the ones in the

1:16:12with the boots on the ground. They're

1:16:13out there. We're all sitting here

1:16:15talking about this but they're they're

1:16:16actually doing this and they're dealing

1:16:18with helping these people and we should

1:16:20listen to them.

1:16:21Why would we want to take one of the

1:16:23tools out of their toolbox and then

1:16:25possibly have to come back here whether

1:16:28we're here or the next council and to

1:16:30add it back in. It doesn't make any

1:16:31sense.

1:16:33I trust our police department and I

1:16:34trust our fire department. They're

1:16:36telling us that this is working and that

1:16:39we shouldn't be making changes to it.

1:16:40So, I don't understand why we are not

1:16:42listening to them.

1:16:44Thank you.

1:16:46>> All right.

1:16:47Council Davis, you want to continue

1:16:49forward on the next section, which I

1:16:51believe is on page page three?

1:16:54Four.

1:16:57>> Thank you, chair.

1:16:58Uh the next amendment um

1:17:01I have um a long paragraph that's um

1:17:05struck in here um having to do with the

1:17:07kind of um exception language when

1:17:09shelter is unavailable.

1:17:11Um and what's written in is during any

1:17:12period when shelter is unavailable, an

1:17:14established campsite in public property

1:17:16may be removed only if it presents an

1:17:18imminent and substantial threat to

1:17:19public health or safety that cannot

1:17:22reasonably be addressed through less

1:17:24restrictive means. A public health or

1:17:25safety threat shall be limited to

1:17:26circumstances involving an active fire,

1:17:29an explosion hazard, obstruction of

1:17:31emergency access, or critical public

1:17:33infrastructure,

1:17:34the presence of hazardous materials or

1:17:36other conditions creating an immediate

1:17:38risk or serious uh bodily injury or

1:17:41death.

1:17:42Um

1:17:43I'll stay off the top on this. Um I'm

1:17:45more than open to workshopping this

1:17:48language and and taking the advice of um

1:17:51our police department and fire

1:17:52department here.

1:17:54Um

1:17:55the intent here

1:17:57um

1:17:58in just thinking about the the intent of

1:17:59the entire ordinance is there's a a

1:18:01really clear distinction in the intent

1:18:03where

1:18:04um there's a period when shelter is

1:18:05available and our practice around that

1:18:07and when shelter isn't available.

1:18:09Um

1:18:10This seems to, although it's not being

1:18:13acted upon, um create a fairly large

1:18:16loophole to that that in in my opinion

1:18:18kind of invalidates the

1:18:20the intent of the ordinance. Um where

1:18:22it's it's really not clear from reading

1:18:24this um

1:18:26what what the the those those city

1:18:29departments might determine

1:18:31um

1:18:32as a reason for for people having to be

1:18:34moved even when shelter is unavailable.

1:18:37Um and again, with you know, if if our

1:18:39intent with this ordinance is that we

1:18:40should not be moving people that have

1:18:42nowhere else to go, I think it's really

1:18:44important to be clear and transparent

1:18:46with the public

1:18:49if you know, if we're kind of breaking

1:18:50that intent.

1:18:51Here are the situations that that we

1:18:53would do so in.

1:18:57>> Um Captain Burke, did you want to

1:18:59address this section or do you want to

1:19:02Do you have anything to say around the

1:19:04uh the use of Um you know, we brought

1:19:06that back as an amendment

1:19:08at a later date allowing for situations

1:19:11where there's safe safety and health

1:19:14issues.

1:19:16Um did you want to talk through some of

1:19:17that or or Chief?

1:19:25>> Thank for the opportunity to talk on

1:19:26this. Um

1:19:28the

1:19:30Council Davis, the the intent was to

1:19:32broaden

1:19:33that section to give discretion to the

1:19:37police department, the health

1:19:38department, fire department, others for

1:19:40those non

1:19:43I'm trying to remember the language

1:19:44you're you're proposing, but the the

1:19:46non-immediate dangers. And I think the

1:19:48slides that the fire department showed

1:19:50and and and the police department showed

1:19:52last time we met. Uh

1:19:56are perfect examples of what we have in

1:19:58mind in that expanded discretion, right?

1:20:02A a person living in a tent in their own

1:20:06excrement,

1:20:08in danger of needles, etc. and so forth,

1:20:10doesn't represent doesn't trigger any of

1:20:12the things that you're proposing to add,

1:20:14but absolutely that would be a case

1:20:17where I think we should

1:20:19take action regardless of the

1:20:21availability of shelter. That person is

1:20:23in uh real health danger uh

1:20:29regardless of what what's available.

1:20:33>> Chief Ty, do you have anything

1:20:33additional you wanted to add to this? I

1:20:35know you we covered that pretty in

1:20:36depth, but

1:20:37>> Yes, thank you. I was shaking my head

1:20:38because I also mentioned an occupant

1:20:40that had

1:20:41I think it was 14 propane containers.

1:20:44Perfect example. It's my property. Just

1:20:46don't touch it. Well, it's your

1:20:48property, but it's a great hazard,

1:20:49especially to the three other people

1:20:51living in the tent next to you and the

1:20:52firefighters that might come in here if

1:20:53there's a fire. So,

1:20:55yeah, it it's it's it is kind of

1:20:57far-reaching and I think as the chief

1:20:59said that was the intent.

1:21:00Um I don't think we're looking to make

1:21:02it punitive in any way or infringe on

1:21:05people's rights or take anything from

1:21:07them.

1:21:08But we we do need that opportunity if if

1:21:11some of the things we just described

1:21:12were to occur.

1:21:14>> I might have seen a

1:21:16hand from Counselor Counselor Hollapa

1:21:17then Smith and then I think King.

1:21:20>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth.

1:21:23I've got complicated thoughts on this

1:21:25one.

1:21:26So, give me just a moment to sort of

1:21:28walk through some of these.

1:21:29So, my understanding is there is you

1:21:32know, authority that our health agent,

1:21:33our fire department, and our police

1:21:35department have that is already existent

1:21:37under other city ordinance as well as

1:21:40state law that allows them and

1:21:43authorizes them to act in certain ways

1:21:44during certain situations,

1:21:47namely things like emergencies, public

1:21:48health issues, and things like that.

1:21:50Now, I'm obviously not a lawyer. I don't

1:21:52know the details of all of that. Um but

1:21:54I guess part of where I'm coming from

1:21:56with this is I'm not quite sure why

1:21:58that's not sufficient

1:22:00here and why it needed some some

1:22:03additional

1:22:05authorities, I guess.

1:22:06And I guess the other the other thought

1:22:08I have on this is a lot of we've seen a

1:22:11lot and heard a lot about how

1:22:13when folks don't have access to things

1:22:15like sharps containers and and bathrooms

1:22:18and ways to to keep warm and provide

1:22:20their own food, they do things that are

1:22:22dangerous. And I guess my confusion And

1:22:25is why what's what's the argument that

1:22:28the best policy is to threaten to move

1:22:31them where they could probably just do

1:22:34the same thing in a different part of

1:22:35the city, maybe farther away in a place

1:22:37that's harder to get to

1:22:39rather than providing sharps containers

1:22:41and bathrooms and other things to try to

1:22:44meet people where they are and solve the

1:22:46and the impact of what we're seeing.

1:22:48Um

1:22:49I'm just not convinced that this policy

1:22:51is working in the way that we that we

1:22:54want it to be given the statistics that

1:22:57we've that we discussed last I'm said

1:22:59last episode, last committee meeting.

1:23:02Thank you.

1:23:06>> I believe sharps containers I don't know

1:23:07if just real quickly I don't believe

1:23:08sharps containers may have been provided

1:23:10at the previous encampment. Um

1:23:13But uh counselor I'm sorry, counselor

1:23:15Smith first and then counselor King.

1:23:17>> chair.

1:23:17>> Counselor Sidorova.

1:23:19>> I agree with the Ward 6 counselor on

1:23:20this. I mean, I'm I go through the

1:23:22amendments and there are things that we

1:23:23know we could do and should do that kind

1:23:26of blow this whole thing up

1:23:28and take it apart

1:23:30rebuild it with actual policies that

1:23:33help people.

1:23:36And I'm not sure that the amendments

1:23:38tonight quite yet get there. Um

1:23:42what I'm seeing with this one is

1:23:45we remove the idea of any any sort of

1:23:48danger and make it imminent danger.

1:23:51But then we also remove the 24-hour

1:23:53period and go down to zero.

1:23:55And I'm not sure that can always will

1:23:59always accomplish what we're setting out

1:24:01to do here.

1:24:02Um as the Ward 6 counselor said, there

1:24:04are laws around imminent danger. There

1:24:07are laws around, you know, that that

1:24:09idea that if you if somebody does not

1:24:11intervene

1:24:14something catastrophic will happen.

1:24:17And so this may not not be necessary.

1:24:19What we have before is we have when

1:24:22there is somewhat of a risk, somewhat of

1:24:24a danger, or something could happen, a

1:24:2724-hour warning

1:24:29would be posted,

1:24:31potentially allowing that person to know

1:24:34that something bad could happen.

1:24:37They may not be aware of.

1:24:39And so without this, we don't get the

1:24:40warning for the person. We're not

1:24:42actually helping the person who is in

1:24:43the danger.

1:24:45Uh

1:24:46we're simply moving the danger. And so I

1:24:48like what's there right now. And I And I

1:24:50like what we've heard from the police

1:24:52and how they enforce this is that

1:24:54typically, I mean, there's been times

1:24:56where the 24 hours has turned into 6

1:24:59weeks because it has been a very lenient

1:25:02policy, but having the 24 hours in their

1:25:05back pocket for more dangerous

1:25:07situations, I think is important. So I I

1:25:09like what's there.

1:25:11Um I'm not sure this quite accomplishes

1:25:13what it set out to do, which is to

1:25:16protect people.

1:25:18And I think it would make a situation

1:25:19less safe

1:25:21overall,

1:25:22especially

1:25:24in in the idea of fire, where fire could

1:25:27start. It's a dry season, could have a

1:25:29problem, but realistically, if somebody

1:25:32doesn't intervene, it may not happen

1:25:34within a day, it may not happen in 2

1:25:36days, but if it happens in 3 days, it's

1:25:38still a fire, it's still burning, it's

1:25:39still near homes.

1:25:41Thanks.

1:25:42>> Council King.

1:25:44>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth, not being a

1:25:46member of the committee. Um I um

1:25:49I'm a little inclined to agree with

1:25:51Council Smith regarding the eminent

1:25:53piece in the 24 hours. I think that um

1:25:56a like a

1:25:58a hazard to public safety is a hazard to

1:26:00public safety, and like giving someone

1:26:0224 hours

1:26:04uh

1:26:04posting 24 hours ahead of time to try

1:26:06and address a hazard to public safety, I

1:26:07think,

1:26:09is fine. Like that's good. Um I I am

1:26:12just a little I just wanted to clarify

1:26:13cuz to me the uh initial language just

1:26:16gives basically full discretion to the

1:26:18the uh police department, health

1:26:20department, etc.

1:26:21Um and the other big change with the new

1:26:24language is just that it defines the

1:26:26hazards. And

1:26:28um

1:26:29I wanted to just clarify the list and

1:26:32make sure people were really clear on

1:26:33what's there cuz I do feel like the list

1:26:35here actually does cover a lot of what

1:26:39the police and fire department have told

1:26:40us they are specifically worried about.

1:26:42So,

1:26:43uh circumstances involving an active

1:26:46fire or explosion hazard. So, an active

1:26:48fire hazard or an active explosion

1:26:50hazard. Um ex- obstruction of emergency

1:26:54access or critical public

1:26:56infrastructure. That can be very broad,

1:26:58right? That can be like they're blocking

1:26:59a sidewalk or street.

1:27:01Um the presence of hazardous materials.

1:27:04That also, I think, can be quite broad.

1:27:06That could include um

1:27:10human excrement, things like that. Uh or

1:27:12other conditions creating an immediate

1:27:14risk of serious bodily injury or death.

1:27:17And I know last week's Sorry, last week

1:27:20whatever. The last episode The last

1:27:22meeting we talked a lot about um

1:27:23situations that uh sometimes lead to

1:27:26assault and things in in encampments.

1:27:29So, I I am curious um uh Captain Burke,

1:27:32I'm sorry to ask you up. Or or police

1:27:34chief, whomever. I just want to I was

1:27:35just curious to hear like

1:27:38what am I missing? Like how is that list

1:27:40not I feel like that list still gives

1:27:42you a decent bit of discretion and does

1:27:43cover a lot of the cases that you've

1:27:45talked about. Just for being a little

1:27:46bit more clear. Is it missing anything

1:27:48big that you feel like?

1:27:49>> Can someone just clarify it's 24 hours

1:27:52now, I believe?

1:27:53>> Yes, uh 24 hours now. Um

1:27:56>> This one is 24-hour.

1:27:58>> And my question's not I'm actually fine

1:28:00with keeping the 24 hours. That's not my

1:28:02question's not about that. It's about

1:28:03the list of the the things that are

1:28:05included in hazards.

1:28:09>> I mean, I'll I'll kind of reiterate what

1:28:11I said last week. I do not believe there

1:28:14are safe encampments

1:28:16ever.

1:28:17Um and I would like the ability to close

1:28:20an encampment when there is any danger

1:28:22to the people there or the residents

1:28:24around it.

1:28:27And I think myself, my team, the fire

1:28:30department,

1:28:33we know what those dangers are.

1:28:37And I ask for that trust from you.

1:28:40>> But to be clear, are there

1:28:42Sorry.

1:28:43Are there dan- I just so I understand,

1:28:45are there are there types of dangers you

1:28:47can think of that fall outside of this

1:28:49list?

1:28:51>> I would need some time to think.

1:28:52>> Okay. Yeah, I mean that's that's I mean

1:28:54that's just a question.

1:28:55>> I mean, yeah.

1:28:58>> I'm going to go to Councillor Sudoriak

1:29:00and then I think to this side and back

1:29:02to that side.

1:29:03>> Thank you, Chair. With not being a

1:29:04member of the committee, um I think this

1:29:06is probably one of the more most

1:29:08important sections of this ordinance. Um

1:29:10and speaking with Ward 3 residents who

1:29:14uh experienced the fires and are still

1:29:16incredibly at risk of any new fires that

1:29:19could be caused uh by man-made um

1:29:24uh

1:29:25mistakes, whatever. Um it's been really

1:29:28important to get this right, and I think

1:29:29the police department does need that

1:29:31discretion. They know better than any

1:29:33one of us on what is an actual risk or

1:29:36hazard. Uh and I think trying to define

1:29:39it is closing what that discretion could

1:29:42be. And I think it's especially

1:29:43important cuz we have to look at this

1:29:45whole entire ordinance and how it works

1:29:47together. In that first bit, if you do

1:29:50remove the 15 miles or you reduce it, I

1:29:52actually think it's meant to be a

1:29:54trigger point. So, if now if you reduce

1:29:56it,

1:29:57you have less of that flexibility for

1:29:59your trigger point to intervene,

1:30:02and then you reduce the ability and

1:30:04flexibility to have that discretion.

1:30:06You're just making you're causing more

1:30:07risk.

1:30:08Um and we're really tying the hands of

1:30:11our first responders. And in regards to

1:30:14comments about, hey, this might have

1:30:16some redundancies with other laws out

1:30:18there. It might, but it's actually very

1:30:20common to cross-reference those other

1:30:23laws, whether it's with language or the

1:30:25actual

1:30:27um

1:30:27code or

1:30:29citation of it. Like this is something

1:30:31that happens in legislation all the

1:30:33time. Uh and I think it's actually

1:30:34important to have the language here.

1:30:36It's not redundant. It's It's taking

1:30:39away ambiguity so that when someone

1:30:42knows that they are enforcing a specific

1:30:44ordinance, the camping ordinance, they

1:30:46don't have to think, what else do I need

1:30:48to enforce out there? Oh, no. I've been

1:30:50told I can have this discretion within

1:30:52this section. And so therefore, I'm

1:30:54going to enforce that. So, I I get the

1:30:57point that people might think that is

1:30:59redundant. I don't think it is. I think

1:31:01it's actually common to do that

1:31:03cross-referencing.

1:31:04Um I I think it I would be in support of

1:31:07just leaving this section as is. Thank

1:31:09you, Chair.

1:31:10>> Councilor Prosniewski, then Councilor

1:31:11Turiel, then

1:31:14>> Back to that side.

1:31:15>> Actually, um

1:31:17our Ward 3 councilor

1:31:19spoke a lot of exactly what I was going

1:31:20to say, but I was going to ask Captain

1:31:22Burke uh just one question. Um

1:31:25just quickly, Captain Burke, uh

1:31:28in in your uh

1:31:33during your time with CIU, have you ever

1:31:35come across a safe encampment?

1:31:38>> No.

1:31:39No, not generally. No one's better off

1:31:42there than they are somewhere else.

1:31:44And I'm in

1:31:46I'm fearful that we are uh

1:31:48we're seeing encampments spring up now,

1:31:51just this week, MBTA, Fan House, Mac

1:31:53Park, Forest River.

1:31:55The Salem Willows. I feel like an

1:31:58imminent large encampment is going to

1:32:02coalesce soon.

1:32:05We're We're We're seeing people kind of

1:32:07getting more bold. I think they I I

1:32:10think it is coming where that we may

1:32:12have a Salt River encampment somewhere

1:32:14on our hands soon.

1:32:16>> So, when you come across an encampment

1:32:18and you notice that there are

1:32:20safety issues, hazards, however,

1:32:25your next course of action?

1:32:27>> It's hard now. Um we don't have shelter

1:32:30available. Um

1:32:33you know,

1:32:35I think I said and and I was honest when

1:32:37I said I I did allow some discretion and

1:32:39and encampments or tents being placed. I

1:32:41don't love them, but we you know, we

1:32:43show some discretion.

1:32:45Um

1:32:47What I'm fearful it and we saw this kind

1:32:49of happening at Charlotte Forten Park a

1:32:51few weeks ago before the kind of

1:32:52Halloween process started

1:32:54that they they start kind of slowly, but

1:32:57then quickly quickly develop.

1:33:00Um

1:33:02You know, I

1:33:07There's a real difference between

1:33:09sleeping encampments.

1:33:12A lot of times we come across people

1:33:14sleeping outside the middle of the night

1:33:16somewhere. That's not something a patrol

1:33:18officer at 3:00 in the morning rouse

1:33:20someone or tell someone to move.

1:33:22The danger is when we have these

1:33:24encampments kind of come together and

1:33:25then all of a sudden grow rapidly.

1:33:28Um

1:33:31I would love to see at the very least

1:33:32something like

1:33:34if there is someone has a sleeping bag

1:33:36or a tent that

1:33:38I don't want to see these become

1:33:39permanent structures.

1:33:42People should at least be if they need

1:33:44to sleep somewhere, they need to pack up

1:33:46the next day. Right? The problem is I

1:33:48and I can't do anything really about

1:33:50that now.

1:33:51So, there's that danger right now with

1:33:53no shelter available and I got these

1:33:55tent sites popping up that they're going

1:33:57to come together and we're going to have

1:33:58a South River.

1:34:03So,

1:34:04I guess that's it's up to the body to

1:34:06decide what what our rules should be,

1:34:08but I'm telling you I'm fearful of that

1:34:10and I believe it's coming soon.

1:34:12I believe there's people ready here

1:34:14right now to support those things, to

1:34:16get them supplies, to pump those things

1:34:18up.

1:34:19And I'm fearful that's going to happen.

1:34:22Um

1:34:24The other day we had a site develop and

1:34:26they had a piece of furniture and a

1:34:28throw rug in front of that tent. That

1:34:29tells me something permanent is coming.

1:34:33Um

1:34:35But right now I'm somewhat limited. Um

1:34:37obviously, I would love to find shelter

1:34:39for everyone so I can definitively say

1:34:41you have to leave.

1:34:44Right? Cuz I know that

1:34:46I'm getting calls daily from residents.

1:34:50And they're frustrated.

1:34:52Sometimes they're mad at me.

1:34:54Um but this is

1:34:57this is coming and there's a lot of it

1:34:59around the city and um

1:35:02I'm worried about a South River camp

1:35:03incoming.

1:35:04I don't know if that answered your

1:35:05question, counselor.

1:35:07>> It did and I think you explained

1:35:08yourself in a lot of different ways, so

1:35:10probably thank you.

1:35:11>> Thank you.

1:35:12>> Counselor Turesky.

1:35:14>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth. Not being a

1:35:16member of the committee, um thank you to

1:35:19um the representatives from the police

1:35:20and fire departments for coming to speak

1:35:22with us tonight.

1:35:23I think it's really important to have

1:35:25your perspective on this issue because

1:35:26you're the people that deal with this

1:35:29day in and day out. Um we we do not deal

1:35:32with this day in and day out. We walk by

1:35:34it, we are affected by it, but we're not

1:35:37in encampments, we're not interacting

1:35:39with people trying to get them help for

1:35:40the most part. I mean, we're we walk by

1:35:42and I I think what I'm looking at the

1:35:45language that's in here now is

1:35:48when the city determines that any

1:35:51established camps that are on public

1:35:52property is a safety or public health

1:35:54hazard.

1:35:55And what I'm looking at as the proposed

1:35:57amendment defines those safety or public

1:36:00health hazards for us. I think it's it's

1:36:03really a slippery slope to define what

1:36:06constitutes a public health hazard in

1:36:08this ordinance because it does remove

1:36:10that discretion. It removes the opinion

1:36:12of the people like

1:36:13some things you just don't know until

1:36:15you see them, right? You When you see

1:36:17it, you know it.

1:36:18Um

1:36:19And I think there's also And And you can

1:36:21go the other direction on that, too,

1:36:23like

1:36:24probably every tent out there has a

1:36:26label on it that says this is going to

1:36:27cause cancer in the state of California.

1:36:29Does that make them all hazardous

1:36:30materials?

1:36:31Um it's just not something that I feel

1:36:33like we should be defining in this

1:36:35ordinance. I I do support keeping the

1:36:37language that we have.

1:36:39Um I also want to point out that you

1:36:41don't always know if something is an

1:36:43immediate risk because if you're stuck

1:36:45with a needle,

1:36:47maybe it's a clean needle. Maybe it's a

1:36:48needle that I

1:36:49poked me cat with and then poked myself

1:36:51with, and that's not a risk. But if it's

1:36:52a needle that is contaminated with some

1:36:55kind of a bloodborne pathogen,

1:36:57it's not an immediate risk, but it sure

1:36:58as heck is a risk, and you have to go to

1:37:00the hospital and get exposure

1:37:02prophylaxis, and it causes, you know, a

1:37:03lot of emotional harm as well. So, I

1:37:05think removing the ability for people to

1:37:08determine in real time on site when

1:37:10these constitute public health and

1:37:12safety risks is

1:37:14is something that really takes a lot of

1:37:16the

1:37:17the practicality out of the ordinance

1:37:19that we have now, and I would not

1:37:20support removing the language that we

1:37:22have.

1:37:23Um I also wanted to ask the police. This

1:37:25is

1:37:26not quite a related question, but is

1:37:28there a reduction in human waste when we

1:37:31have all the porta potties set up for

1:37:32haunted happenings? Like, do You don't

1:37:34have to answer that. I'm just curious.

1:37:35Like, when we have porta potties

1:37:37everywhere, does that actually mean that

1:37:39we see less human waste? Cuz I, you

1:37:41know, that's we have that experiment in

1:37:42place already.

1:37:49>> I can speculate, but I I don't know,

1:37:51counselor. Sorry.

1:37:54>> Go to counselor Merkle, who's apparently

1:37:55had her hand up for a while, and then

1:37:56I'll back to counselor Davis.

1:37:59>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth. Not being a

1:38:01member committee, and I appreciate the

1:38:03the comments

1:38:05and from the context from the

1:38:06counselors.

1:38:08I would like to

1:38:10start by saying, you know, we've all

1:38:12observed, you know, first hand for years

1:38:15the compassionate approach taken by our

1:38:16Salem Police Department's Community

1:38:18Impact Unit in assisting our unhoused

1:38:20folks, you know, including connecting

1:38:22them with services, partnering with

1:38:24Essex County outreach workers

1:38:27and using enforcement as a last resort.

1:38:30Uh you know, with with very few arrests,

1:38:32which you know, we heard, you know, in

1:38:35the presentation that is certainly not a

1:38:36solution. And I have every confidence uh

1:38:40that they will continue this approach in

1:38:43using discretion.

1:38:45And I don't support, you know, the

1:38:49amendments. I don't want to weaken our

1:38:51camping ordinance any way in any way. Uh

1:38:54I'm opening and I'm also opening to

1:38:56strengthening our policy for our public

1:38:58spaces

1:38:59to give the police and fire departments,

1:39:01you know, the tools they need to address

1:39:03the unsafe and unsanitary conditions for

1:39:06public safety, including for unhoused

1:39:09folks and animals. You know, the

1:39:11presentation by the Community Impact

1:39:13Unit a few weeks ago updating us on the

1:39:15conditions that exist, we hear from

1:39:18residents, and we live here, you know,

1:39:20ourselves, you know, seeing uh first

1:39:22hand unsafe conditions

1:39:24that present a public health risk. And I

1:39:27was also going to, you know, mention the

1:39:29needles. I know in one of the

1:39:30presentations we the presentation we had

1:39:32a few weeks ago you know, that when, you

1:39:35know, sharp containers were not being

1:39:37used they are everywhere in our public

1:39:40spaces. I won't wear sandals when I when

1:39:43I think of kids in sandals, toddlers

1:39:45that fall down every few steps. You

1:39:48know, I I can't even think about the

1:39:50possible outcomes. And that's just one

1:39:53example as you know, we've heard the

1:39:55port portable heaters, propane tanks.

1:39:59And my concern is as was just expressed,

1:40:02you know, that it's impossible to

1:40:03anticipate and define all hazards.

1:40:06And I'll offer too that

1:40:09you know, we also have situations out

1:40:12there where people have refused

1:40:14assistance in housing.

1:40:16And are creating dangerous conditions,

1:40:19which is what I want to see them able to

1:40:22address.

1:40:23Uh because there are a lot of different

1:40:24situations out there. And some some

1:40:27people have. So

1:40:29the discretion

1:40:31that they have for me is key. And just

1:40:34as Captain Burke said, you know, it's

1:40:36you know, they they need to be able they

1:40:38need that discretion to do their job

1:40:40compassionately and effectively and and

1:40:43have the flexibility to

1:40:46to address again, you know, I do

1:40:48recognize the proposed changes are

1:40:50well-intentioned, but to get it stuck in

1:40:53the weeds defining things and spelling

1:40:56out exactly what police need to adhere

1:41:00to and I I just think it's getting it

1:41:02would get murky and it would not help

1:41:06public safety conditions including Front

1:41:08House folks. Thank you.

1:41:12>> I'll just uh

1:41:13just note that on

1:41:15on this one and potentially on the last

1:41:16one there there may may be a will on the

1:41:18body if you're just counting in your

1:41:19head. Um on the full council

1:41:22um that these first two or at least this

1:41:24this next one is not potentially does

1:41:26not potentially have the support.

1:41:28Um so just want to keep that in mind as

1:41:30we move forward in these conversations.

1:41:32Um

1:41:33Councilor Davis.

1:41:35>> Thank you, Cherry. I mentioned at the

1:41:37top of this um

1:41:38uh

1:41:39this particular amendment, I'm very open

1:41:41to work shopping it. What I saw in our

1:41:43the presentation from the fire

1:41:45department and that is that there is a

1:41:47need um

1:41:50to remove people when they're

1:41:53when it is perceived that a that a fire

1:41:55could could start or take place, right?

1:41:57So, I when I think about this list the

1:41:59tier um

1:42:01be very happy to to add language around

1:42:04that, right? It It sounds like that

1:42:05would that would suffice. I don't think

1:42:07that we have to

1:42:09describe every single possible

1:42:11situation, but more so

1:42:14broad language that gets to a happy

1:42:16medium where there

1:42:19the police and fire department feel that

1:42:21there is enough discretion and that we

1:42:23feel that there's proper transparency

1:42:25and definition here.

1:42:27Um

1:42:28I think that when I hear

1:42:31with all due due respect

1:42:33from the police um that

1:42:37every and any encampment

1:42:42they would define as unsafe, I think

1:42:44that

1:42:46particularly speaks to my concern,

1:42:48right? If any and every encampment is

1:42:51unsafe and unhealthy

1:42:54and we begin to

1:42:56enforce based on that principle

1:42:59we no longer have an ordinance where we

1:43:01are differentiating between periods

1:43:02where in shelter is available and when

1:43:05there isn't. And that would be an

1:43:07entirely different ordinance, an

1:43:08entirely different approach,

1:43:10right? Um

1:43:13So, that's the intent behind this. The

1:43:14intent is not to um not to micromanage,

1:43:18not to uh

1:43:20not allow for uh

1:43:21a wide range of discretion, um

1:43:25but but to hope to to start a

1:43:27conversation around trying to find a

1:43:29happy medium there.

1:43:30Um I just want to point to language in

1:43:32there that says

1:43:34um

1:43:35that cannot be solved through less

1:43:38restrictive means,

1:43:40right? And that's in there

1:43:41um

1:43:43for a reason, right? When I think about

1:43:45it sounds like to me that this wasn't

1:43:47explicitly said, but that uh

1:43:51seeing human waste or seeing used

1:43:52needles um would would be a reason to

1:43:55close um a campsite, right? And it

1:43:58doesn't sound to me like in those

1:44:00situations where those things happened

1:44:02um

1:44:04that we did everything we can could

1:44:05without using or that we would do in the

1:44:08future without using closure as the

1:44:09first option, right? Um

1:44:13Counselor Gelapa and I had the privilege

1:44:14of speaking with some um

1:44:17public safety professionals in Lynn um

1:44:19that are doing some really great um harm

1:44:21reduction street work. Um

1:44:23And what they what they told us is that

1:44:25you know, you don't simply go into an

1:44:27encampment and and leave a a needle

1:44:29safety deposit box, right? There has to

1:44:30be active and ongoing education about

1:44:33what those are.

1:44:34Um

1:44:35there has to be communication that the

1:44:37the police are not going to arrest you

1:44:38if they find these things that we just

1:44:40want people to be safe, right? Um so

1:44:42it's not surprising that people wouldn't

1:44:43use those properly.

1:44:45Um it sounds like there was an example

1:44:46where someone used those as a bathroom.

1:44:48In that situation, when asked, it sounds

1:44:51like there weren't weren't any public

1:44:53restrooms available for people, right?

1:44:55So again, I don't know if we're

1:44:56exhausting

1:44:58every option first. Um that's why that

1:45:00language is in there. That's the intent.

1:45:02It doesn't sound um like as Counselor uh

1:45:05Hepworth Chair Hepworth mentioned that

1:45:07there's

1:45:08um

1:45:09a a motivation to move move move forward

1:45:12with this particular amendment. So I'm

1:45:13happy to move on, but I wanted to

1:45:14explain the intent.

1:45:18>> Um

1:45:19we do have one more section to cover

1:45:21here, and then I do want to get to

1:45:23public comment and potentially a motion,

1:45:24but are there a few more things uh

1:45:26Counselor Smith.

1:45:28>> Thank you, Chair. Yeah, I'm just going

1:45:29to

1:45:31I've sort of changed my mind on this

1:45:32because what I think this does is this

1:45:35creates where if there is an imminent or

1:45:36there is a significant danger,

1:45:38it takes the period down from 24 hours

1:45:41to zero for the police to be able to go

1:45:43in and do something.

1:45:45And at the same time, we still maintain

1:45:47section four,

1:45:49which allows police, fire, health,

1:45:52buildings at any time to make up their

1:45:55own regulations

1:45:58regarding camping.

1:46:00I mean, I'd like to think I think if I

1:46:02think I'm reading that, I mean, I don't

1:46:04know what

1:46:05the intent was in 2024, but I think

1:46:07Chief Dionne can probably just ban

1:46:09camping in Salem Woods if he wants to

1:46:11tomorrow, especially if it seems like

1:46:13it's dry enough

1:46:14because it allows for the promulgation

1:46:17of any

1:46:18new rules

1:46:21uh new regulations

1:46:24to be made by those departments.

1:46:27Now, that may not have been the intent,

1:46:29but that is there.

1:46:30And so, what this does is I I do think

1:46:33maybe this does strengthen the ordinance

1:46:36a little bit,

1:46:37uh cutting the time down from 1 day to 0

1:46:41minutes,

1:46:42uh while also maintaining the ability

1:46:45for police, fire, buildings, and health

1:46:47to make educated decisions in the

1:46:49moment.

1:46:51Now, I could be incorrect. I'd love to

1:46:52hear from somebody who was on

1:46:55the council at that time whether or not

1:46:57that was the intent, but but that that's

1:46:59how I read that.

1:47:03>> Councilor Paszynski.

1:47:05>> Thank you. I just wanted to make one

1:47:06clarification. I I believe that when uh

1:47:09when I asked um

1:47:12Captain Burke if he's ever come across

1:47:15a campsite uh that was safe, uh he said

1:47:17no.

1:47:18He was not defining

1:47:20that every campsite that he's has

1:47:22is he's he's not making a definition.

1:47:25He's speaking from experience. There's a

1:47:26big difference saying that saying that

1:47:28the saying that our police department is

1:47:31making that definition is kind of

1:47:33dismerging and

1:47:35I'm not happy with that. I'd like to

1:47:38just clarify that our

1:47:40captain is speaking

1:47:42from experience from experience from a a

1:47:44lot of empathy that's that our

1:47:47department has

1:47:48shown for the homeless. Thank you.

1:47:51>> I move to

1:47:53back to Council Davis to cover the last

1:47:55portion about

1:47:57enforcement written violations and

1:48:01the legal end of it.

1:48:03>> So there there are two more. We don't

1:48:05have to tackle them all.

1:48:06>> Oh, [laughter] I see.

1:48:06>> The third one is a short one.

1:48:08>> Yeah, I see that one.

1:48:09>> Thank you, Chair. Um

1:48:12This I'll let me count the pages. 1 2

1:48:156 This is on the sixth page.

1:48:18>> Second to last page.

1:48:19>> Yep. We've got during the period when

1:48:20shelter is unavailable in the city

1:48:22notifies an individual located in any

1:48:24campsite that a period when shelter is

1:48:25unavailable has ended said individual

1:48:28shall have It's at 12 hours and striking

1:48:30that out writing 48 hours to remove

1:48:33their camping materials.

1:48:35Um

1:48:39We also spoke

1:48:42Just want to get his name right.

1:48:44Councilman Lapa also and then myself

1:48:47spoke with someone named Jeff Olivet who

1:48:50also sent us an email and public comment

1:48:54earlier today. He's a senior advisor on

1:48:55the initiative on health and

1:48:57homelessness at Harvard.

1:48:59We talked about this particular

1:49:01amendment with him.

1:49:02He pointed us to something from the

1:49:08the US Interagency Council on

1:49:10Homelessness

1:49:12um

1:49:13which is a federal department. So this

1:49:15is essentially a kind of federal

1:49:17What they said was

1:49:19um

1:49:20They have a 19-point plan and and and

1:49:23and ways to kind of deal with

1:49:26unhoused populations. One of them is to

1:49:29provide encampment residents with verbal

1:49:31and written notices in plain and

1:49:32multiple languages visible to every

1:49:34person and posted at multiple times of a

1:49:36closure at least 30 days in advance.

1:49:39Imminent threats to the health and

1:49:40safety in encampment residents may take

1:49:43may make it not possible to provide 30

1:49:44days of notice and communities should

1:49:46have plans in place for such situations.

1:49:49Um

1:49:51Their guidance draws on practices

1:49:54from working in communities across the

1:49:55country and was developed with input

1:49:56from people with lived experiences of

1:49:59homelessness, national partners, and

1:50:00experts from multiple federal agencies.

1:50:03Unhoused residents may need time to

1:50:05secure prescriptions, medical equipment,

1:50:07identification, or documents needed to

1:50:09access benefits and [snorts] housing.

1:50:11Sorting, packing, arranging

1:50:12transportation, and finding storage can

1:50:14take time. A sudden force move can

1:50:17create acute stress, disrupt routines

1:50:19and support networks, and expose people

1:50:21to new dangers. Um

1:50:25So just to kind of

1:50:28say,

1:50:29you know, this this kind of

1:50:31much more modest change from 12 hours to

1:50:3348 hours

1:50:35is still

1:50:37woefully inefficient to to a federal

1:50:38guideline that talks more about um

1:50:4130 days.

1:50:43I do also want to note this is

1:50:46entirely different section from the one

1:50:47that we were just talking about in which

1:50:50there is an emergency, there's an

1:50:51imminent threat, right? In this section

1:50:54what we're talking about is folks that

1:50:55have been notified

1:50:57that there is a shelter and that they're

1:50:59being told to move.

1:51:01In my mind

1:51:03if there's no emergency, why create an

1:51:05emergency timeline and create

1:51:07unnecessary stress with a with a 12-hour

1:51:09window that seems designed to tackle

1:51:12situations that are very much an

1:51:13emergency. We heard in our last

1:51:15committee meeting

1:51:17that this 12-hour window is rarely if

1:51:20ever enforced.

1:51:24Councilor Hollapa.

1:51:26>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth. I want to

1:51:27share a few thoughts that I have uh

1:51:30on the ordinance in general and why I

1:51:31support this amendment specifically.

1:51:34So, as Councilor Davidson mentioned, he

1:51:36and I had spoke with a public health

1:51:38expert who was the top federal agent

1:51:41under the

1:51:42under the Biden administration for

1:51:43dealing with the homeless crisis.

1:51:46Uh and I have a lot of great quotes from

1:51:48him. Um and he also showed us a few

1:51:51different resources, and I'm going to

1:51:52paraphrase two different articles for us

1:51:54here. One is called the health toll of

1:51:56encampment sweeps, a descriptive

1:51:58analysis of people who use drugs. That

1:52:01was published in in the Massachusetts

1:52:03Journal of Urban Health in April of this

1:52:05year. And the second one is called

1:52:07health and economic outcomes of

1:52:09addressing encampments of individuals

1:52:11using opioids, which was published in

1:52:14open-access medical journal called the

1:52:15JAMA Network Open, which is maintained

1:52:18by the American Medical Association.

1:52:20This is from February of last year.

1:52:23So, on this first one here, there was a

1:52:25study that was conducted from

1:52:27individuals from Lawrence and Cambridge,

1:52:28Massachusetts, so fairly local.

1:52:30And again, this was done in 2026 earlier

1:52:33this year. So, individuals were aged

1:52:36over 18, self-reported past month

1:52:38injection drug use, HIV unaffected, and

1:52:42provided informed consent. Assessments

1:52:45were conducted in person and remotely by

1:52:47trained staff from 155 participants over

1:52:50a 12-month period.

1:52:52This is where it gets juicy.

1:52:54The what they had found is those that

1:52:56who had experienced a sweep of an

1:52:57encampment more more likely to have

1:53:00higher levels of anxiety and depressive

1:53:02symptoms.

1:53:03More likely to not feel welcome in

1:53:05medical offices and clinics. more likely

1:53:07to be homeless or unstably housed,

1:53:11and report using and more likely to

1:53:12report using downers or sedatives in the

1:53:14past month.

1:53:16There was little observed difference in

1:53:17substance use patterns including in

1:53:19injection frequency by experience of

1:53:20encampment sleep, possibly illustrating

1:53:22that continued use of substances may be

1:53:24a priority regardless of police presence

1:53:27or experience of encampment sweeps.

1:53:29And it goes on to say that encampment

1:53:31sweeps do not happen in isolation. They

1:53:32are policy-driven disruptions with

1:53:34tangible and measurable preventative

1:53:36negative health consequences. Public

1:53:39health efforts must align with

1:53:40strategies that support rather than

1:53:42punish people experiencing homelessness

1:53:45and those who use drugs. And I think

1:53:46some of that last point is really where

1:53:48a lot of my perspective lies on this. I

1:53:50think I do have a disagreement with with

1:53:52policy with members of the council and I

1:53:54think that's clear and that's fine.

1:53:55And I think a lot of what I think is

1:53:58I hope is clear that no one in this

1:54:00council can solve this problem. In fact,

1:54:02actually, I don't think the council has

1:54:03the authority to solve this problem

1:54:04because we can't allocate $10 million to

1:54:06go build, you know, thousands of new

1:54:08homes.

1:54:09Um the police department also can't do

1:54:11that. The fire department also can't do

1:54:13that.

1:54:14Um

1:54:16but I am okay with trying to make it

1:54:18clear of what we will accept in terms of

1:54:22the the public health outcomes

1:54:24potentially on some of these individuals

1:54:26and what we're allowing to happen as a

1:54:28response to encampments. I would rather

1:54:31see

1:54:34the city devote time and attention to

1:54:36things like providing toilets and sharps

1:54:39containers and resources like building

1:54:42relationships with people in a way that

1:54:44that folks feel

1:54:46more comfortable around. I don't you

1:54:48know, I don't mean this to any

1:54:49disrespect to our to our officers, but

1:54:51it's a little intimidating to have a

1:54:53police officer come up, especially if

1:54:55you know you're doing something that

1:54:56you're not supposed to do, but you don't

1:54:57really have another choice.

1:54:59That's the through line through all of

1:55:00this is that, you know, we're asking or

1:55:02telling people to move, but we're not

1:55:05giving them an option. We're not giving

1:55:06them any other options, and we see these

1:55:08sorts of things start to happen. I'm

1:55:09going to paraphrase this next one, and

1:55:11then I will finish with my final thought

1:55:12on this amendment.

1:55:14So, this is from that that second one,

1:55:16which is the American Medical

1:55:17Association. So, the key question they

1:55:18asked is, "What are the health and

1:55:19economic outcomes of policy approaches

1:55:22to managing tenant encampments of

1:55:23individuals experiencing homelessness

1:55:25and high-risk opioid use in

1:55:27Massachusetts?" So, it's again very

1:55:29specific here.

1:55:31The findings were that in this

1:55:32uh this model study of a simulated

1:55:35cohort of 400 individuals, a

1:55:36city-sanctioned encampment sweep

1:55:38resulted in worse health outcomes than

1:55:40the status quo approach, which is

1:55:41leaving the encampment undisturbed,

1:55:43which includes more deaths, fewer person

1:55:45weeks in treatment, and higher costs.

1:55:48That's the municipal cost

1:55:50uh of the responders and that sort of

1:55:53thing.

1:55:54Uh and it goes on to say, "The findings

1:55:55indicate that sweeps increase mortality

1:55:58and spending, whereas a policy of

1:56:00providing housing is uh more costly, but

1:56:03it saves more lives."

1:56:05Uh which I think gets back to the point

1:56:06that I'm trying to make, which is that

1:56:08this encampment ordinance, as we all

1:56:10know, is not is not, you know, the

1:56:12silver bullet to solve this problem.

1:56:14But, from what we've seen are the

1:56:16incidents that our police officers are

1:56:18responding to are increasing. The number

1:56:20of homeless people in Salem are is

1:56:21increasing. I want to make it clear that

1:56:23not all of them are using opioids, but

1:56:25even in these two studies that were

1:56:26focused on that specifically, it's found

1:56:28to be problematic when the only thing

1:56:31that happens or the when the primary

1:56:32thing that happens is encampment sweeps.

1:56:35Not saying that we shouldn't sweep

1:56:37encampments. Uh city of Denver,

1:56:38Colorado, is is still sweeps

1:56:40encampments, but they have other

1:56:42policies in place that make it much more

1:56:45humane and make it much more effective,

1:56:47and where people aren't just moving

1:56:49somewhere else in the city or deeper

1:56:50into the woods and starting fires.

1:56:51They're actually getting into homes,

1:56:53they're getting access to services that

1:56:54they need.

1:56:55And I don't know how to make that happen

1:56:58without taking some of the tools out of

1:57:00the toolbox. I'm okay with doing that if

1:57:02it makes it we're going to have some

1:57:03real progress. No matter who you talk to

1:57:05in the city, they're tired of this

1:57:06happening. And they want us to be doing

1:57:09more. They want the city to be doing

1:57:10more. And if this is one of the ways

1:57:12that we can do that, I think that's

1:57:14fair.

1:57:15Thank you.

1:57:19>> Councilor King, then Councilor Sidorak.

1:57:22>> Thank [clears throat] you, Chair

1:57:23Hepworth, not being a member of the

1:57:24committee. Um I have a very quick

1:57:27thought on the amendment, and I will

1:57:28just say I think that this whole group

1:57:30of people would be a lot happier if we

1:57:31were having a different conversation,

1:57:33which was about solutions around things

1:57:35like housing and and all that. And I

1:57:36think that that is

1:57:39tied at least in part to our budget

1:57:41approval abilities as a council. So,

1:57:43maybe it's worth having an open-ended

1:57:45meeting at some point and inviting the

1:57:47mayor and talking about that in the

1:57:48future. Um just saying that. But, um in

1:57:50terms of this specific amendment,

1:57:52um the police told us at the last

1:57:55meeting that they do not always follow

1:57:58the 12-hour rule, that, you know,

1:57:59because, you know, they're trying to act

1:58:01with empathy and again be focused on the

1:58:03outcome, making sure the person has what

1:58:05they need if they're moving. Um that

1:58:07that does look It sounded like it looked

1:58:09a little bit more like 24 to 48 hours,

1:58:11depending on the individual and and what

1:58:12is going on. So, um the fact that data,

1:58:16you know,

1:58:17our speaker spoke to the 3 weeks in DC,

1:58:20and federal data speaks to a 30-day

1:58:22notice. I think meeting in the middle

1:58:24somewhere at like 24 or 48 hours, um

1:58:27when that's what our police department

1:58:29is telling us is generally what they're

1:58:30actually doing, I think is a fairly

1:58:32reasonable amendment to this. Um and

1:58:35balances the fact that we are trying to

1:58:37give the police discretion, but also

1:58:39want to be empathetic ourselves and

1:58:42focus on what data shows is better for

1:58:44outcomes, and more time is better for

1:58:45outcomes.

1:58:47>> Councilor Sidorak.

1:58:49>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth, uh not being

1:58:50a member of the committee.

1:58:52Um so, I appreciate the research that uh

1:58:56Counselor Davis has shared with me. Uh

1:58:58it's the research that the Ward 6

1:59:00counselors mentioned. I do want to

1:59:02clarify after looking through it, I

1:59:04noted that these sweeps are the sweeps

1:59:06that do not include services and the

1:59:09sweeps that the city of Salem provides

1:59:11are those that where they engage the

1:59:14nonprofit environment uh LifeWorks to

1:59:18offer services before that encampment is

1:59:21um taken down. So, I I'm sure it's still

1:59:25a very um traumatizing thing to go

1:59:27through a managed sweep um with those

1:59:30services, but it is very different than

1:59:33the sweeps that are being referenced in

1:59:36these articles. And with the Denver

1:59:38example, that is managed sweeps as well.

1:59:41It was and it's also accompanied with a

1:59:44ton of housing that's available that

1:59:46they've spent millions of dollars,

1:59:48hundreds of millions of dollars on. For

1:59:50us, it would probably be roughly like

1:59:5310 to 12 million dollars. Still, that's

1:59:55a lot for Salem. Uh but, I just wanted

1:59:57to distinguish that and drive the point

1:59:59home that's really important to have uh

2:00:01those services along with the police

2:00:03department, the fire department, and the

2:00:05CAIU working together to ensure that if

2:00:08we do have to enforce this, that we are

2:00:11providing people with the help that they

2:00:12need and we're not just stripping their

2:00:14homes away.

2:00:18Councilor Smith.

2:00:20Thank you, Chair. Um

2:00:24I thought I was

2:00:25you know, I was going through a lot of

2:00:26the material. Some We got a lot of

2:00:28letters today and they all came in very

2:00:30late, so I didn't read them. But, I do

2:00:32think that um some that came in before

2:00:36were interesting. I really enjoyed the

2:00:39There was a survey from Wichita Action

2:00:40that I thought was really helpful

2:00:42because it was actually from people who

2:00:43are outside who are outside.

2:00:45And

2:00:47there were pieces in there that I think

2:00:49we we can look at

2:00:51that aren't necessarily in this tonight.

2:00:55Whether they're things like finding ways

2:00:57to have people outside with dignity

2:00:59until we can figure out some other

2:01:01solution. Looking at housing.

2:01:04But I did also notice that in there a

2:01:05plurality of people

2:01:07would be fine if they knew where to

2:01:08camp. I don't even think that was

2:01:10qualified, but they did want to know

2:01:12where to camp. But they they a plurality

2:01:14of people said they would be fine with

2:01:16not being able to camp between 8:00 a.m.

2:01:17and 8:00 p.m.

2:01:19And not only that

2:01:21a majority said that they would be okay

2:01:23or good with it. Um that was an

2:01:25interesting one that kind of surprised

2:01:27me in there because it means that the 12

2:01:30hours in that case if people were just

2:01:32packing up every day, putting stuff

2:01:34away,

2:01:35I don't know. I we don't have a good

2:01:37solution for that. But the people on the

2:01:39street would be more than willing to do

2:01:41that.

2:01:42That's what I saw in there. So I and I

2:01:44may be wrong. I need to did not

2:01:47I'll be honest. I did not was not able

2:01:49to do as much homework on this as I

2:01:50normally would.

2:01:52Um

2:01:52because things were coming in later.

2:01:54But that was interesting to me and so I

2:01:57don't see an issue necessarily with the

2:01:5812 hours. It also said that if people

2:02:01were told hey you have to pack up and

2:02:03move 10 to 30 minutes was the number one

2:02:06selected choice.

2:02:08Um

2:02:09again, surprising, shocking

2:02:13and maybe it's not necessarily what

2:02:15which city action was trying to put out

2:02:16there and so I really appreciate the off

2:02:18the the that the survey was done

2:02:22truthfully and honestly and

2:02:24respectfully. Um because there were and

2:02:26there were a lot of other things in

2:02:27there that we're not talking about

2:02:29tonight that I think we probably should

2:02:30talk about in the future.

2:02:32Because there are a lot of things that

2:02:35um people want

2:02:37and might might work and that we can

2:02:39actually listen to the folks who who

2:02:41need this rather than

2:02:43um

2:02:44you know, well, we're just trying to

2:02:46work within the ordinance we have. I

2:02:47think we have to think outside of the

2:02:48four corners of this ordinance in order

2:02:51to move forward. Thanks.

2:02:54Councilor Davis.

2:02:56>> Thank you, chair. Um yeah, I just wanted

2:02:58[clears throat] I

2:02:59to add I think another through line in

2:03:02this ordinance and these amendments is

2:03:04that there are a lot of arbitrary

2:03:06numbers, right?

2:03:08If you if you go back and and watch some

2:03:10of the recordings from a couple years

2:03:11ago, um

2:03:13right, the 15-mile radius was was talked

2:03:15about as arbitrary and and open to

2:03:17change. Um this 12 hours, I don't think

2:03:20there was ever kind of a discussion

2:03:21about how we arrived at that number,

2:03:23right? And so I think

2:03:25I think that should make us

2:03:26uncomfortable and I think that um

2:03:28we we always want to have

2:03:31timelines and and or and language in

2:03:33ordinances that are reflective of

2:03:36data-driven solutions, right? And and

2:03:38and I think that what we what we brought

2:03:40up um and what we heard tonight um was a

2:03:43lot of

2:03:44studies and a lot of data-driven reasons

2:03:46why

2:03:48that that timeline is is

2:03:50really short and it can cause a lot of

2:03:52harm. Um

2:03:54and if there's no reason to keep it if

2:03:57it's not an emergency situation, which

2:03:5912 hours feels like got to get these

2:04:02people out of here and I haven't heard a

2:04:03an explanation for why that might be

2:04:06um when we're not talking about active

2:04:07fires or you know, whatever else. Um

2:04:12I think I think this is one where we can

2:04:14it should be an easy lift for us to be a

2:04:15little bit more humane. Um I think a lot

2:04:18about our condo conversion ordinance

2:04:19conversations, right? Where um

2:04:23you know, we went through that process

2:04:24because we recognized the harm and the

2:04:26trauma of being

2:04:29kicked out of your home. And I mean, the

2:04:30timeline that we created for for that is

2:04:35um

2:04:36is is is longer by orders of magnitude.

2:04:39Of course, we're talking about a

2:04:39different thing. We're talking about

2:04:40someone in a tent versus a home.

2:04:42Um but that same basic principle of

2:04:45you

2:04:46you've got to go from this um area that

2:04:48you may have been at for months, even

2:04:50years, um

2:04:52right now in the next 12 hours and

2:04:55um and figure it out

2:04:57um

2:04:58And again, that's a that's another

2:04:59reason why the police have not been

2:05:01enforcing that because I think they are

2:05:04um there is an empathetic approach

2:05:06there.

2:05:07Um

2:05:08I I haven't heard an argument why why

2:05:10this 12 hours needs to stay in place.

2:05:14Councilor Merkel.

2:05:16>> Thank you, Chair Harwood. Not being a

2:05:17member of the committee,

2:05:19uh yeah, to to that point, I think it

2:05:21was a request um and please correct me

2:05:24if I'm wrong uh from the police to land

2:05:26on the 12-hour

2:05:28um

2:05:29the the 12-hour length of time and I'd

2:05:32be curious if if they wanted to offer,

2:05:35you know, any opinion on that because I

2:05:37I I think it came from them.

2:05:44>> Uh thank you. It It did come from us. We

2:05:46found that people were taking advantage

2:05:48of the longer period of time that was in

2:05:50the original ordina- ordinance.

2:05:52Um that that that uh people absolutely

2:05:54knew how long it was and we'd say, you

2:05:56know,

2:05:57could you could you move on? And they'd

2:05:58say, "I I got

2:05:59I got 72 hours."

2:06:01And uh so, we we wanted to tighten that

2:06:04up. A- again, to give us discretion, not

2:06:07necessarily to say you got to be out in

2:06:0912 hours.

2:06:12>> Thank you.

2:06:12>> Thank you. That's what I was trying to

2:06:13remember.

2:06:17>> All right. Uh seeing no further

2:06:18discussion on this, we'll move back to

2:06:19the final one on um penalties.

2:06:29>> Thank you, Chair. So, this last one is

2:06:31is in essence just uh getting rid of the

2:06:33uh

2:06:34the section on arrest. So, there was a

2:06:36paragraph on the very last page um that

2:06:40said all enforcement methods authorized

2:06:41by law including issuance of a warning

2:06:44um

2:06:45or enforcement authorized by GL C272 S59

2:06:51ordinances and regulations for regulate

2:06:53relating to streets

2:06:54uh

2:06:55reservations or parkways, alcoholic

2:06:57beverages, profanity, arrest without a

2:06:59warrant uh if the Salem police or other

2:07:01duly authorized either on scene

2:07:05determines a violation of GLE 272 S59

2:07:09has occurred in their presence. Sorry, a

2:07:11little hard to read.

2:07:12Um what I wrote in its place is penalty

2:07:16for violations individuals in violation

2:07:18of the section may be subject only to a

2:07:19written warning. This section shall be

2:07:21enforced by the city police department,

2:07:23the city board of health, its agents, or

2:07:25the designees of the city department of

2:07:26inspectional services, and the city fire

2:07:28department, as well as any sworn law

2:07:30enforcement agency empowered to make an

2:07:32arrest with

2:07:33the jurisdiction boundaries of city of

2:07:35Salem. No penalty other than a written

2:07:37warning may be

2:07:38imposed pursuant to this section.

2:07:40Written warning an individual determined

2:07:42to be in violation of this section may

2:07:43be issued a written warning identifying

2:07:45the violation and advising the

2:07:47individual of the requirements of this

2:07:49section. No fine, civil penalty,

2:07:51criminal penalty, arrest, or other

2:07:53monetary punitive

2:07:55sanction shall be imposed pursuant to

2:07:58this section.

2:07:59So, obviously this gets to the

2:08:02concern of

2:08:03criminalization. Again, um this also

2:08:07gets to kind of having an ordinance

2:08:10that's more in line with the actual

2:08:11practices.

2:08:12It sounds like arrests are

2:08:15very rare if happening. It sounded like

2:08:18and I and I I could be wrong. We could

2:08:19get clarity on this, but

2:08:21um the only arrest that happened were

2:08:24not solely because of violation of this

2:08:28ordinance, that there were other

2:08:30um

2:08:31infractions.

2:08:33Um

2:08:35Also, for I just

2:08:36for um

2:08:38to kind of uh underline this as well,

2:08:40the US Interagency Council on

2:08:41Homelessness, which I referenced before,

2:08:44described a revolving door in which

2:08:46criminalization increases individuals'

2:08:47likelihood of prolonged homelessness

2:08:49instead of helping them obtain housing,

2:08:51employment, treatment, or services. Um

2:08:54there were two really great studies um

2:08:56on the subject, one by um Professor

2:08:59Uggen, um called The Edge of Stigma: An

2:09:01Experimental Audit of the Effects of

2:09:03Low-Level Criminal Records of

2:09:04Employment, where they sent applications

2:09:07to approximately 300 entry-level job

2:09:09openings and found that individuals with

2:09:12low-level arrest records, even ones that

2:09:14didn't result in a conviction, were more

2:09:16or less were less likely to receive um

2:09:19callbacks. There's another study that

2:09:21had um

2:09:22the same results, this one by Egan and

2:09:23Star for the American Economic Review.

2:09:26They sent um over 2,000 fictitious

2:09:28online job applications and found um an

2:09:31even more striking difference. So,

2:09:35when it comes to housing, um private

2:09:38background checks, um companies

2:09:40sometimes report criminal cases uh that

2:09:43would not appear um on the landlord's

2:09:45official CORI report, including

2:09:47dismissed cases. Um reports can also be

2:09:50inaccurate or fall to show or fail to

2:09:52show that the case was dismissed.

2:09:54So, the the underlying fear here is that

2:09:57we

2:09:59if arrests were to to ramp up, it sounds

2:10:01like people aren't being arrested, but

2:10:03this ordinance allows for them to be, um

2:10:06we could be creating new barriers to

2:10:08people becoming housed and prolong their

2:10:11homelessness,

2:10:12um which I I think is not something that

2:10:13any of us want.

2:10:17>> Uh it could be a good time to turn it

2:10:18over to either Chief Miller Captain

2:10:20Burke on this one. Just um

2:10:23I think we often think of ordinances as

2:10:25magic words.

2:10:27But I think the the role you correct me

2:10:29if I'm wrong but the role of the CIU is

2:10:31to

2:10:32connect with individuals and hopefully

2:10:33encourage them to

2:10:35um

2:10:36seek assistance and find services and

2:10:40sometimes an ordinance maybe could

2:10:42potentially

2:10:43um

2:10:44encourage folks to listen a little bit

2:10:46more to to someone on the ground. So

2:10:48just just curious cuz there's been so

2:10:49few arrests with this. I mean this has

2:10:51been in place for two and a half years I

2:10:53think.

2:10:54And I think we're looking at two

2:10:56individuals that have been arrested in

2:10:57that entire time period. So if you could

2:10:59just talk to that.

2:10:59>> So counselor that is correct.

2:11:02Three arrests two different individuals.

2:11:05One individual both times they were

2:11:08charged I believe solely with the

2:11:09camping ordinance.

2:11:10The other gentleman had additional

2:11:13criminal charges as well.

2:11:16I will say that you know in the the

2:11:19other presentator that talked a lot

2:11:20about incarceration.

2:11:23Massachusetts is a little different. So

2:11:25an ordinance violation this doesn't even

2:11:27go on your criminal history.

2:11:28It's it's just simply not there.

2:11:31People don't go to jail for this. People

2:11:33don't go to prison for this.

2:11:35But having that ability and I and I can

2:11:37give you an example of the

2:11:39one individual that was arrested twice.

2:11:43He would just say no I ain't going.

2:11:46So it is helpful to have that there in

2:11:48my pocket. We've used it sparingly. We

2:11:50could have used it much much more. We

2:11:53decided not to.

2:11:55I [snorts] certainly don't want to lose

2:11:56that

2:11:57but no one's going to jail and and no

2:12:00one's getting this on their criminal

2:12:01history. It just simply does not appear

2:12:03on your Massachusetts criminal history.

2:12:06>> Thank you.

2:12:07Counselor Sidoric.

2:12:11>> Thank you Chair Hepworth not being a

2:12:13member of the committee.

2:12:15I do have a question on that. So, in the

2:12:17very specific circumstance, let's say

2:12:20someone is

2:12:22camping and

2:12:25they're in violation, but they're not

2:12:27breaking any laws. Can the only thing

2:12:29you do if this change is put in place is

2:12:31just warning after warning after

2:12:32warning? You can't remove them?

2:12:34>> That's That sounds like it to me.

2:12:36>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

2:12:40>> Any questions or comments from the

2:12:42council?

2:12:44All right. Seeing none.

2:12:45Councilor Davis.

2:12:47>> Um just quickly clarify. So,

2:12:49yes, if there is not an arrest, if there

2:12:51is not a charge, these things wouldn't

2:12:53show up in someone's criminal history.

2:12:55That is not the only history, right?

2:12:56There are

2:12:58um there are records outside of that

2:13:00that both employers and landlords can

2:13:03see.

2:13:04Corey check is one thing they have

2:13:07access to. They do have access to other

2:13:09things.

2:13:12>> Councilor Hollapa.

2:13:14>> Thank you, Chair Hopper.

2:13:15>> I'll be quick. My My understanding of

2:13:16this section is around penalties of

2:13:18violation. So, I I don't believe it's

2:13:20the case that this would

2:13:22uh remove the ability to move the

2:13:24individuals. It would just prohibit the

2:13:26ability to enforce

2:13:28uh you know, Massachusetts General Law

2:13:29chapter 272 section 59 as it relates to

2:13:34violations of this ordinance, which is

2:13:35different. Thank you.

2:13:40>> Okay. Um all right. So, um

2:13:43I'd like to take public comment. Uh I

2:13:45I'll just leave you all with the just to

2:13:47consider

2:13:49um as we come out of public comment. Uh

2:13:51we could do a couple of things here. We

2:13:52could um

2:13:55send some of this send this to the full

2:13:56council and see what the full council

2:13:58says on it. Um

2:14:02based on what I'm hearing, I don't know

2:14:04that

2:14:05the full council would feel this to be

2:14:07ready yet for passage.

2:14:10Um and if it goes to the full council

2:14:12and the full council does not pass it,

2:14:14then it's dead.

2:14:15I would, um,

2:14:17for those who

2:14:19um, support some of these changes, uh,

2:14:22it could stay in committee.

2:14:24You could take this feedback.

2:14:26Um, and we could potentially meet again,

2:14:29or carry it forward to next year,

2:14:31depending on what the will of the body

2:14:33would be. But, I'll just leave that as a

2:14:35thought to have as we come out of public

2:14:37comment, um, and what what you all want

2:14:39to do

2:14:40with this, um, prior to the next

2:14:42committee meeting. Um, I'll ask that the

2:14:44chair will ask for a just a 3-minute

2:14:46recess before we go into public comment.

2:14:48Um, but actually, before we go into

2:14:49public comment, I just want to maybe

2:14:51raise your hand if you're intending to

2:14:53give public comment.

2:14:56Two,

2:14:57three,

2:14:58four, five, six, seven.

2:15:02So,

2:15:03and then online is one, so that's 13

2:15:06folks.

2:15:07Um,

2:15:10does 2 minutes sound fair, um, for

2:15:12public comment?

2:15:15We'll go with 2 minutes for public

2:15:17comment, but we're going to do a

2:15:183-minute recess before we move into

2:15:19public comment. Thank you.

2:18:04>> Mhm.

2:19:59>> Mhm.

2:21:43>> We're just waiting.

2:21:51We're just

2:21:54We're just waiting for everybody to

2:21:55return.

2:22:02Test.

2:22:04What am I?

2:22:08Oh, here we go.

2:22:10Test. Test.

2:22:12Test. Yes.

2:22:14What is going on? Going on.

2:22:17Where's the sound right now?

2:22:20Test.

2:22:27Test. Okay.

2:22:29And there we go.

2:22:31All right.

2:22:32Um okay, we will uh start with public

2:22:34comment. We're going to start on this

2:22:35side of the room right here. If you want

2:22:36to come to the microphone, if you'd like

2:22:38to say your name and address, you're

2:22:39welcome to. Not not uh required to. And

2:22:42uh 2 minutes for each person.

2:22:46>> Thanks, everybody. My name is Tony

2:22:48Duffy. I'm uh here from Ward 1. I did

2:22:51send a letter. Thanks for those of you

2:22:52who have responded. I appreciate it. Um

2:22:55I just I want to start with the first

2:22:57point. I I really have a problem with

2:22:59the fact that the proposals were not

2:23:00shared. They were not attached to the

2:23:02agenda. So, we did not have the benefit

2:23:05of having them in our hands while we're

2:23:06attending attending this.

2:23:09Um I did see some that were floating

2:23:10around. Was not aware if those were the

2:23:12live proposals or if they were still on

2:23:15the table or if they were in their final

2:23:16form.

2:23:17So, I I I don't know why that was why

2:23:19that happened.

2:23:21Um I'd like those to be shared as soon

2:23:23as possible to the public in a clear

2:23:26format and clear way.

2:23:29Uh this ordinance is not criminalizing

2:23:31homelessness.

2:23:32Uh it is setting basic parameters for

2:23:34usage of our spaces in Salem for the

2:23:37goal for the good and safety of the

2:23:39community. I just want to make that

2:23:40first point.

2:23:42Um the second point, in the previous

2:23:43meeting on the 23rd,

2:23:46I got the feeling that this may have

2:23:48been coming

2:23:50from

2:23:51reports of misconduct from the police.

2:23:54You had asked a question, Councillor

2:23:56Davis, around you you would made a

2:23:58statement that you would heard of camps

2:24:01be uh tents being slashed.

2:24:03I mean, I think you had mentioned

2:24:04something to the effect too, that you

2:24:05had heard some heard some things.

2:24:07We can't make public policy on on

2:24:10rumors and innuendo. If there is if

2:24:12there are instances of police

2:24:14misconduct, we we need to we need

2:24:16officer names. We need to have dates. We

2:24:19need to have places. We need some more

2:24:21specifics. We can't make public health

2:24:22policy because, you know, you guys have

2:24:24heard some things.

2:24:29I'd also like to ask really quick well,

2:24:31make a I guess rhetorical.

2:24:33The the the papers that that you

2:24:35referenced, and I've seen them floating

2:24:36around social media as well.

2:24:40I I I already know the answer to this

2:24:41question, but did they look at the the

2:24:43health outcomes of the community around

2:24:46the encampments? How about the kids who

2:24:49lived in the down the point lived in the

2:24:50area of the uh the the playground that

2:24:53lost the lost their playground?

2:24:54>> Thank you.

2:24:57>> I strongly oppose

2:24:59any uh amendments.

2:25:01>> Thank you.

2:25:06>> Hello. Uh my name is Tim Clark, and

2:25:11my family and I uh own and manage

2:25:14several properties on Derby Street,

2:25:17commercial properties uh abutting

2:25:19Charlotte Forten Park.

2:25:20And a number of our tenants have had

2:25:22issues with

2:25:24>> [snorts]

2:25:24>> uh

2:25:26homeless homeless individuals, you know,

2:25:29in that area.

2:25:30And of late of the last few months, it's

2:25:33it's gotten pretty bad. And you're all

2:25:34familiar with the details of uh

2:25:38finding needles and defecation and

2:25:41litter.

2:25:43and um I think somebody mentioned

2:25:46um earlier tonight that

2:25:49you know, essentially you're entering

2:25:51this um

2:25:53when you walk down there, a very

2:25:54unpredictable scenario.

2:25:57And people don't feel safe.

2:25:59And it's about the only place in Salem

2:26:01that I think people feel that way.

2:26:04Um

2:26:05and I think we need to do something to

2:26:08to address it.

2:26:10Um you know, there there was a lot of

2:26:12discussion tonight about the rights of

2:26:14homeless, um these vulnerable people,

2:26:17and they're all very worthwhile

2:26:18comments.

2:26:19I don't think there was any discussion

2:26:21about the impact of

2:26:26homelessness that has on residents and

2:26:29businesses.

2:26:30And um that should be first and foremost

2:26:33in your minds. And the impact is

2:26:36significant.

2:26:37And like Captain Burke, I predict

2:26:41this situation is going to get worse.

2:26:43And we the city council and the mayor

2:26:46really needs to get ahead of the

2:26:47situation.

2:26:49Um

2:26:51Excuse me, let me just see if I had

2:26:52anything else to say.

2:26:54Um

2:26:56I think the other thing about

2:26:59the discussions tonight is we're talking

2:27:02about protecting

2:27:04you know, needy, vulnerable people.

2:27:06Um [snorts] but a lot of the safeguards

2:27:09we're proposing and are using

2:27:11>> Thank you, Tim.

2:27:12>> Let me just finish. We're protecting

2:27:14some very

2:27:15>> giving everyone 2 minutes tonight.

2:27:16>> Okay.

2:27:17>> Thank you.

2:27:24>> Hi everyone. Good evening to the

2:27:26council. I'm Joanne Matera. Um I write a

2:27:30monthly newsletter that I send to all of

2:27:32you. Um

2:27:36I I said this last month, but I think it

2:27:38bears repeating. I know you're concerned

2:27:41about the unhoused population in the

2:27:43city.

2:27:44Um but as this gentleman just noticed

2:27:46noted, there seems to be very little

2:27:49concern about the people who live here

2:27:52and who are paying taxes here.

2:27:54Particularly if you go downtown. We talk

2:27:57about respecting the homeless, fine. We

2:28:01talk about uh

2:28:03um

2:28:04the keeping their integrity. Meanwhile,

2:28:06they're taking a in the bushes and

2:28:09we need to understand that they are not

2:28:10respecting us. I'm being crass on

2:28:12purpose. They are not respecting us.

2:28:15They're not respecting We're the ones

2:28:17who are supporting all of this. And And

2:28:19in a city of what? 48,000 people? How

2:28:23many of us are actually taxpayers? Maybe

2:28:2510,000? Maybe less? So, whatever we all

2:28:29can do is really going to be limited by

2:28:33what we can pay in taxes. In addition to

2:28:36a new school that's going to be built

2:28:38for half a billion dollars and and the

2:28:40mortgages we pay and everything else all

2:28:43the other money we're putting out. But

2:28:44in terms of taxes, there's really not a

2:28:46whole lot that's coming into the city

2:28:48and it has to pay for your salaries, the

2:28:51police's salaries, the fire salaries.

2:28:53So,

2:28:54as you think about all of the things you

2:28:56want to do to help the unhoused, think

2:28:59about how we're going to pay for it

2:29:01because I don't think there's a lot of

2:29:02money and there's not a lot of money

2:29:04coming from Washington. Certainly not

2:29:06for the next 2 years.

2:29:08So, thank you.

2:29:10>> Thank you. And though we cannot regulate

2:29:12the content of speech, please we ask you

2:29:14to respect the decorum of the council

2:29:16chambers.

2:29:18Uh next.

2:29:22>> Hello. Steve Perry, civilian member of

2:29:25the CIU.

2:29:26Um I think we're all here on the same

2:29:28page. We all want to help these people.

2:29:30We know it's economic, mental health,

2:29:34>> [sighs]

2:29:34>> drug addiction.

2:29:36Um

2:29:37what we're trying to do

2:29:39is get them help

2:29:42before anything bad happens. I think if

2:29:46we relax these regulations, we're

2:29:48inviting violence, um

2:29:51more drugs, more crime. That's not good

2:29:54for anybody.

2:29:55The other thing you got to understand is

2:29:58camping's one thing. You know, we've

2:30:00come across camps that were clean. Maybe

2:30:03someone, you know, needed a little time

2:30:04to save some money to get on their feet.

2:30:06We let them be there. In encampments,

2:30:09you know, 10 tents,

2:30:11they're most of them are drug addicted,

2:30:13are drinking, or both, and they they

2:30:15can't maintain

2:30:17the camp themselves.

2:30:19So, [snorts] I would uh invite everyone

2:30:22on the city council to come out with me

2:30:25and Officer Card for a day, half a day,

2:30:282 hours. See how we interact with the

2:30:30people and how we, you know, basically

2:30:34treat them with the empathy, get to know

2:30:36them, and then ask them how they want

2:30:38help. I mean, we we've sent people

2:30:41back home to Florida. You know, we paid

2:30:43for the tickets. We reunited them with

2:30:45people uh with family. That That's what

2:30:48we're trying to do ultimately is get

2:30:49them back to their,

2:30:51you know, family. And

2:30:53we need something in our back pocket to

2:30:56move them along if they're being

2:30:57stubborn. I call it making them mildly

2:31:00uncomfortable if we have to, but we try

2:31:03not to.

2:31:04And uh I would love to take each one of

2:31:06you guys out for an hour or two and just

2:31:08see how we do it.

2:31:10Then you don't have to speculate.

2:31:12Thank you.

2:31:13Thank you.

2:31:15>> I'm next.

2:31:19>> As I said, real quick.

2:31:20Real quick, I just want to say I I want

2:31:22to I want to leave it to sides.

2:31:23But yeah, real quick.

2:31:24>> Wait, wait, hang on. Wait. Let's Let's

2:31:26say one at a time here.

2:31:27>> Yeah, I get it. But

2:31:29>> a Salem resident and Steve thank god for

2:31:31Steve and Essex County outreach Neil.

2:31:33Because

2:31:35if it wasn't for tonight I had to call

2:31:36him because I'm a drug addict,

2:31:38alcoholic. My life is

2:31:41And thank god he picked his phone up.

2:31:43But he told me he has no funding.

2:31:45Because of that I'm That's all I

2:31:47got to say. And my wife and my daughter

2:31:49is screwed because of that. And I need

2:31:51him and I need Steve, both the Steves.

2:31:55So please do something about this guys.

2:31:56Thank you. I'm out.

2:31:59And I'm not joking. It's not funny

2:32:01either.

2:32:01I'm just saying it's not funny.

2:32:03I mean heroin addict.

2:32:05I've died so many times. My wife

2:32:07narcaned me three times in the driveway.

2:32:10Neil's been there. He knows. It's not a

2:32:11joke, dude.

2:32:13None of this is a joke.

2:32:17>> All right. Next.

2:32:27>> Hello. My name is Matthew Connor. I'm a

2:32:28resident of Four Rope Street. I live

2:32:31right down the road from Lifebridge and

2:32:34when they had their overflow flare, I

2:32:36saw the unhoused people walking by my

2:32:38home every day and I never felt unsafe a

2:32:40day living there.

2:32:41And I will also say

2:32:43that right now, beyond all the specifics

2:32:45that are being argued here,

2:32:47we are sitting in a country that is at

2:32:49war with itself ideologically about

2:32:51whether we want to trample on those less

2:32:53privileged than us taxpayers

2:32:56or if we want to help our fellow humans

2:33:00and give them dignity and civility. And

2:33:03even the Platoists at the old academy in

2:33:05Athens knew that you needed a very basic

2:33:08amount of material goods in your life to

2:33:10be able to be and do good. And

2:33:12criminalize we've heard from experts

2:33:14from Harvard. We've heard from experts

2:33:17in in the field of helping the unhoused

2:33:19nationally. We've heard federal

2:33:21guidelines and we are going to hear

2:33:23people from Wichita Action who have

2:33:25actually been there on the streets, who

2:33:27actually have asked the unhoused people

2:33:30what they should be doing, and not with

2:33:32badges, and not while making them mildly

2:33:35uncomfortable.

2:33:38Are we here to help people, or are we

2:33:39here to help taxpayers?

2:33:53>> Fawaz Abusharr Fuzzy

2:33:56First of all, I want to tell everybody

2:33:58if there is an unhoused person anywhere,

2:34:01it's our fault. We failed somewhere. I

2:34:04don't care if you're a taxpayer or not.

2:34:07It's on us.

2:34:09And it's on us to make sure that the

2:34:12problem ends, which is I'm not going to

2:34:14be able to say what I wanted to say in 2

2:34:15minutes, but just to make it fast,

2:34:19this ordinance came

2:34:21to

2:34:22to help enforcement, not to help solve a

2:34:25problem, whether the problem is unhoused

2:34:28or anything. We wanted to try to find a

2:34:30way on how to clear an encampment, and

2:34:33this is how this came about, and Life

2:34:35Bridge somehow had 50

2:34:39God knows where from

2:34:41beds to help us do the enforcement on

2:34:44the encampment by Wendy's.

2:34:47Two years two two

2:34:50Over 2 years ago, today, and in 2 years

2:34:53from now, no matter what you do to this

2:34:56>> [snorts]

2:34:56>> ordinance, it's not going to work

2:34:59because it is not and wasn't made to

2:35:02solve a problem.

2:35:04We need to solve the problem. Meanwhile,

2:35:08while we're trying to do that, whatever

2:35:11we do, we have to put the dignity and

2:35:14the respect and and to do everything

2:35:17without harming the somebody who's

2:35:19already harmed by being unhoused. Nobody

2:35:23chooses to be unhoused.

2:35:25Maybe

2:35:26if it becomes a habit later, they become

2:35:29a habit unhoused. But for the very first

2:35:32time, nobody chooses to be an addict as

2:35:34they call it. I call it dependency.

2:35:38We need to use the right words. It's a

2:35:41disease. It's a sickness. And I am

2:35:43thinking unhoused is also becomes like

2:35:46that. You put your Something happens to

2:35:49put you in that position.

2:35:51And then we as a society fail you

2:35:54>> [snorts]

2:35:54>> in the beginning to take care of you and

2:35:56to correct things for you. And then

2:35:58things go from there on. And this

2:36:00happens with both of those addictions

2:36:03and those situations. Thank you. Please

2:36:05start a new ordinance that does make a

2:36:08change. Thank you.

2:36:11>> [clears throat]

2:36:14>> Jim Lacey, 30-something Road.

2:36:17I want to take you up on that

2:36:19one of these days. The Steve, thank you.

2:36:23Fear, thank you for mentioning that,

2:36:25officer.

2:36:27That's what I think drives us all. We're

2:36:29fear We have a fear of

2:36:31taxes. We have a fear of money. We have

2:36:33a fear of homeless. Well, I don't fear

2:36:35the homeless. And I want to say I paid

2:36:38the taxes. So

2:36:39I just got the bill. Paid my water

2:36:41bills.

2:36:43You're welcome.

2:36:45>> Thank you.

2:36:46>> Next.

2:36:53>> I believe a lot of you are new to the

2:36:55council.

2:36:56Um

2:36:58What you've seen as far as the

2:37:00consequences of the city's safety are

2:37:02what happened when your predecessors

2:37:05um believed that their role was to give

2:37:08the police more leeway. Give them as

2:37:10much slack as they need to do their job.

2:37:12But to use the toolbox analogy, when

2:37:15your toolbox is just all of your tools

2:37:18jump bundled together,

2:37:20the first thing out of that box is a

2:37:22hammer.

2:37:23Um and we've seen that it's not

2:37:24effective. We've seen it that the police

2:37:27do not know what the results of their

2:37:28own actions because they're not being

2:37:30given protocols. Um they're not being

2:37:33told to you know, these This is what

2:37:36your job is. You should report that

2:37:38you've done this job.

2:37:41Um that is your job as a city council.

2:37:43You've been elected to be an independent

2:37:45body um to organize that toolkit and

2:37:48make sure that the city departments are

2:37:51able to do their jobs in a dignified

2:37:54um

2:37:55human human way.

2:37:59Um

2:38:00So yes, I just want to implore you to

2:38:02please, you know,

2:38:04take hold of what we've given you.

2:38:07Um whether you agree with me with

2:38:10my position on the ordinance or not.

2:38:14>> Thank you.

2:38:20>> I

2:38:20Um my name is Susan Crueso.

2:38:23I live at 11 Summer Street, right

2:38:27downtown, and I don't fear the homeless.

2:38:31And one thing that my friends over there

2:38:33don't know is that um

2:38:36for 10 years I was homeless.

2:38:40From

2:38:421990

2:38:44till 1997-98,

2:38:48and then a little a year in 2007 and

2:38:522008 I was homeless.

2:38:55And I did live in a shelter

2:38:59um up in Topsfield.

2:39:02And for me, it was 15 miles away.

2:39:06And it did not walk.

2:39:09Um

2:39:10and it was like Plowshares and it was

2:39:13really the cream of the crop. And

2:39:15because I was in day treatment center,

2:39:18they drove from me to Salem

2:39:21every day

2:39:23except on the weekends so that I could

2:39:28have my support.

2:39:31Um

2:39:33and then I got a place and I lived there

2:39:36for 9 years.

2:39:37And then I became homeless again.

2:39:42And then I I got a place in 2008.

2:39:49And a year

2:39:51later,

2:39:53I was able to get housing through the

2:39:57Elliott program. And then

2:40:002017, I got Section 8 voucher.

2:40:05And I've been on it ever since and I've

2:40:08maintained my own home.

2:40:11It is possible

2:40:13to do to

2:40:15for the home homeless

2:40:19to succeed

2:40:22with housing. But they've got to be

2:40:24provided with the housing.

2:40:27>> Thank you.

2:40:28>> And you guys are the ones that you

2:40:31either going to withhold it back or not.

2:40:34>> public testimony.

2:40:35>> And my last point is

2:40:36>> We try to get keep everyone to 2 minutes

2:40:38just make sure everyone has it fairly,

2:40:40but

2:40:40>> All right.

2:40:41>> any any thoughts you have or feelings,

2:40:42please please send it to the full

2:40:44council and we're happy to happy to talk

2:40:45through those. Thank you.

2:40:47Thank you for giving public testimony.

2:40:55>> All right, it's me again. I'm Skyler

2:40:57Clark. I live on Derby Street. Um

2:40:59I I those of you who say that this

2:41:01ordinance has been working as intended

2:41:02are actually pretty correct. This

2:41:04ordinance was always a short-sighted

2:41:05measure to get rid of people and it has

2:41:07definitely succeeded. It has killed a

2:41:09friend of mine and has made the rest of

2:41:10them magically disappear into hidden

2:41:12spaces around the city.

2:41:14Into the woods, into my parking garage

2:41:16with a disregard to any actual solution

2:41:18that can get someone off the street. You

2:41:20heard the police speak last meeting

2:41:21about 95 homeless people and 92 move

2:41:23along slips. They had 6 months to come

2:41:25up with numbers about how many people

2:41:27they connected with housing, but for

2:41:28some reason they had no concrete

2:41:30figures. I wonder why that is.

2:41:32Without the transition center, we cannot

2:41:34even pretend anymore that we have the

2:41:36shelter capacity to handle this crisis.

2:41:38And when we have the police openly

2:41:39admitting that they suggest people move

2:41:41along without a lawful order, what do

2:41:43you really think is going to happen?

2:41:45Regardless of how they're ignored, the

2:41:46current draft of this ordinance still

2:41:49has protections. Without a real list of

2:41:51available shelter determining if we were

2:41:52in a period where shelter is available,

2:41:54every single one of those 92 no move

2:41:56along slips were already unlawful.

2:41:59And without the transition center, the

2:42:00only justification for the legality of

2:42:02those actions, that lawlessness is going

2:42:04to be even more blatant and unignorable.

2:42:06They cannot legally enforce this no

2:42:08camping ordinance even on a

2:42:10technicality. Finding a way forward that

2:42:12works with homeless people is literally

2:42:14the only way we can move in any

2:42:15direction with this. Unless you on the

2:42:17council are finally willing to admit

2:42:19that this was not ever meant to help

2:42:21homeless people. Burke said that we are

2:42:24in a period where shelter is unavailable

2:42:25and they cannot stop camping from the

2:42:27people from camping if it's the only

2:42:28place that they can go. They can only

2:42:30push them further into hiding.

2:42:33Or they can which puts people into the

2:42:34woods, which causes fires. It causes

2:42:36people to be more susceptible to actual

2:42:39bodily violence.

2:42:41What are we going to do about it? Cuz

2:42:43this isn't going to work.

2:42:53>> Uh hi, I'm Reese. Um not telling you

2:42:55where I live.

2:42:56Um I feel like past like the past couple

2:43:00years that we've been dealing with this

2:43:02encampment ordinance.

2:43:04Um

2:43:05I I've kind of realized that a lot of

2:43:06y'all are on this council are not

2:43:08qualified to be having this discussion.

2:43:11I don't think you're doing your

2:43:11research. Um I think there was like a

2:43:14very glaring issue during this meeting

2:43:17where you finally got someone to speak

2:43:19for the homeless and he speaks on a

2:43:21national level and you let him have one

2:43:2315-minute presentation and then rebut

2:43:25twice while Captain Burke was coming up

2:43:28for every single question. You want to

2:43:30talk to people who are also on the

2:43:32streets that aren't just cops? Talk to

2:43:34Wichita Action. Why didn't you let

2:43:36Caitlin Like Caitlin literally tried to

2:43:38get Skyler to discuss this with you. You

2:43:40guys You mentioned you saw the survey.

2:43:43Why haven't you been talking about the

2:43:45survey? And the fact that it had like

2:43:47information that you were not privy to

2:43:49that you didn't expect. You think we're

2:43:51a bunch of biased people. We're not. All

2:43:53right? Like

2:43:56And I can tell that you guys aren't

2:43:57qualified cuz you're saying things like,

2:43:59"Oh, there's people refusing shelter."

2:44:01Why do you think they refuse shelter?

2:44:03There's extreme

2:44:05curfews. I have a friend I have a close

2:44:07friend who is homeless. She lives in a

2:44:09shelter. She has to get back to the

2:44:10shelter by 9:00 every night or she

2:44:12doesn't get a bed.

2:44:14She If she doesn't leave the shelter by

2:44:157:00 a.m.

2:44:17she's kicked out. Okay? There was

2:44:19someone banned from Lifeboat for

2:44:20charging his wheelchair. There was

2:44:21someone banned from Lifeboat for calling

2:44:23out homophobia. Like yeah, they don't

2:44:26want to go to Lifeboat sometimes and

2:44:28that's going to happen. You need to

2:44:29allow them to have autonomy. And what

2:44:31these ordinance changes would make is a

2:44:34little bit of a step towards autonomy

2:44:36because even though I know the homeless

2:44:37disgust you people, especially the

2:44:39NIMBYs, they deserve autonomy. They are

2:44:41profoundly disabled. They are profoundly

2:44:44traumatized every single day. You can't

2:44:46imagine stepping a day in their shoes

2:44:48with the privilege that you have.

2:44:53And that's it.

2:44:55>> Exactly 2 minutes.

2:44:56Um

2:44:57up next.

2:45:05>> Hi, I'm uh

2:45:06Dave Frost from Ward 6 and um

2:45:09I just want to say like

2:45:12imagine think about any big trip that

2:45:14you've ever taken and like the pack the

2:45:17stress of just like packing up to just

2:45:19go on that when it's a trip that's meant

2:45:21to be fun, right? And how frustrating it

2:45:24can be if you just forget something even

2:45:26though you know

2:45:27it's going to be there when you get

2:45:28home.

2:45:30Now imagine that being every day of your

2:45:32life.

2:45:34Every day you have to pack up everything

2:45:36that you own.

2:45:38And if you forget something, it's gone

2:45:40forever cuz you don't have a home to go

2:45:42back to.

2:45:43That's what this every time somebody's

2:45:47made to move, that's what's happening.

2:45:49That's the sort of stress that they're

2:45:50going through. We've all experienced

2:45:52that. And that's

2:45:54all the time. How are you supposed to

2:45:56find any sort of level of stability in

2:45:58your life when you're forced to do that

2:46:01so frequently?

2:46:03And nobody, not a single person in this

2:46:05room, would be able to find that level

2:46:07of stability that you need to actually

2:46:09get off the street if you were forced to

2:46:12do that as frequently as

2:46:15and

2:46:16like as we are forcing people to do

2:46:18right now.

2:46:21We just couldn't do it. No No one here

2:46:23could and we shouldn't expect anybody

2:46:25else to need to do it.

2:46:26Thank you.

2:46:29>> Anybody else in the room before we go

2:46:31online?

2:46:32We have two more.

2:46:35>> Can I ask a question?

2:46:37>> It's not a question answer period but

2:46:39happy to discuss afterwards.

2:46:40>> Oh, okay. Um since I can't ask, I don't

2:46:45um it sounded like the officer said that

2:46:50on most normal days that doesn't sound

2:46:52like you guys even have that many cops

2:46:54around to play cab service. Do you have

2:46:56like many police officers waiting around

2:47:00to drive 15 miles to Boston back?

2:47:04Doesn't feel like it. Also, I feel like

2:47:07our neighbors, the towns within those 15

2:47:09miles, all this serves to do is show

2:47:12them that we're willing to offload our

2:47:14problems on them.

2:47:16Um,

2:47:19I don't believe we can keep pushing off

2:47:21our homeless problem problem

2:47:24um

2:47:25on the police or an understaffed

2:47:26shelter.

2:47:28I think things are getting more

2:47:29expensive. I think people are losing

2:47:31their jobs and that will continue to

2:47:33happen. I think this will get worse.

2:47:36Um, and I

2:47:38I think we need to do real things. So,

2:47:42quit with the criminalization, fund

2:47:45another shelter, prioritize housing over

2:47:47tourists who don't care about our town,

2:47:50and hire some more social workers.

2:47:56Next.

2:48:05>> Hi, my name's Joan Wilkins. I live on

2:48:07Lemon Street.

2:48:09Uh, I support all of the amendments that

2:48:11were proposed today and I just want to

2:48:13really hit home that we are talking

2:48:15about this

2:48:16in the context of a housing crisis.

2:48:19Uh, there is not enough housing for

2:48:21everyone in our community and we've

2:48:23heard today that there's also not enough

2:48:25temporary shelter.

2:48:27So, practically speaking, we're not

2:48:30having [snorts] a conversation about

2:48:31whether we want people to be

2:48:31homelessness or not. Practically

2:48:34speaking, we are asking

2:48:37um

2:48:39the question

2:48:40uh,

2:48:41whether or not we solve the problems

2:48:43that of people being visibly homeless by

2:48:46pushing them into the woods and into

2:48:47hiding, or if we try our best to reduce

2:48:50the harm that homelessness is causing to

2:48:52the people who are experiencing it.

2:48:57Uh, there's two things I'd love for you

2:48:59all to consider in your in your

2:49:00deliberations. Uh, the first is that

2:49:03there are many reasons why someone would

2:49:05refuse to go to shelter. Safety

2:49:07concerns, past trauma, and

2:49:10namely the expectation that that shelter

2:49:12space is only temporary, and we've seen

2:49:14that very clearly with the loss

2:49:17of the transition center. Folks often

2:49:19lose all of their belongings in that

2:49:21process, and they're really put, you

2:49:23know, at a disadvantage.

2:49:25Um, and then also the fact that driving

2:49:27our unhoused community members into

2:49:28hiding puts them at greater risk, right?

2:49:31We're We're pushing people to the

2:49:34margins of society, where they are at

2:49:36more risk of assault, more risk of

2:49:38theft, lack of access to emergency care,

2:49:41and even murder. Um, please remember

2:49:44that homeless people make rational

2:49:46decisions

2:49:47about their own survival.

2:49:50I truly believe we can do the long-term

2:49:52work of solving the problem of the

2:49:54housing crisis.

2:49:56And in in the meantime, I just ask that

2:49:58we don't treat our fellow unhoused

2:50:00residents like they're the hazard,

2:50:02and instead we work to reduce the harm

2:50:05that those community members face every

2:50:06day.

2:50:07Thank you.

2:50:08>> Thank you.

2:50:10Um, all right, we'll go online

2:50:15to

2:50:17Zemano first.

2:50:20Eric, you should be able to speak if you

2:50:22want to unmute yourself.

2:50:27>> Well, thank you. My name is Eric

2:50:29Crestemano. I'm a Salem resident and one

2:50:31half owner of Gulu Gulu Cafe. I also

2:50:33employ

2:50:35What's that?

2:50:36>> Yeah.

2:50:37>> Can you hear me?

2:50:39>> Yeah, it's very loud.

2:50:40>> We're going to turn that down just a

2:50:41little bit. Go ahead, Eric.

2:50:42>> Sorry.

2:50:43Um I also employ three people who are

2:50:45working hard to do the near impossible

2:50:47in Salem, and that's transition out of

2:50:48homelessness. We shouldn't pretend the

2:50:50unhoused don't pay taxes just because

2:50:51they're on the street. But that said,

2:50:53while I'm from New England, I lived in

2:50:55Austin, Texas for a short 5 years while

2:50:58that city struggled with homelessness

2:51:00and public camping. I want to share an

2:51:01experience relevant to tonight's

2:51:03discussion.

2:51:04In 2019, Austin relaxed its camping ban

2:51:07without providing adequate shelter

2:51:08capacity. Tents appeared across the

2:51:10city. When the ban was reinstated,

2:51:12people didn't disappear. Many moved into

2:51:14wooded areas away from services and

2:51:16public view. I witnessed these

2:51:18encampments firsthand during during

2:51:20volunteer cleanups. The conditions were

2:51:22deplorable. Garbage, human waste, fire

2:51:25hazards, and no basic sanitation. No one

2:51:28should have to live like that. But

2:51:29Austin accidentally developed something

2:51:31meaningful, the Esperanza community, a

2:51:34designated legal camping area. It

2:51:36started a little more than bare land,

2:51:38but evolved into a managed community

2:51:39with access to transportation,

2:51:41sanitation, showers, emergency access,

2:51:44and onsite outreach. Instead of

2:51:46constantly displacing people, service

2:51:48providers knew where to find them. They

2:51:49could build relationships and connect

2:51:51residents with health care, employment,

2:51:53and housing assistance. This challenges

2:51:55the idea that safe camping is

2:51:56impossible. With proper management and

2:51:58infrastructure, designated sites can

2:52:00reduce fire risk, improve sanitation,

2:52:03and protect public spaces, and help

2:52:05people access services. Salem doesn't

2:52:07have enough shelter beds for everyone

2:52:09who needs them. Simply outright banning

2:52:11or severely limiting camping doesn't

2:52:13change that reality. We need something,

2:52:15and if we can't get beds, there's

2:52:16nowhere else to go. We can care about

2:52:18public safety and human dignity at the

2:52:20same time. Those goals aren't mutually

2:52:22exclusive. The Esperanza community

2:52:24didn't solve homelessness, but it

2:52:26demonstrated that creating a safe place

2:52:28to go can be a part of the solution. And

2:52:30I urge you to look at the uh elements

2:52:32that came from that community as you

2:52:33weigh the ideas before you. Thank you.

2:52:37>> Eric.

2:52:42Okay, we're going to move to the

2:52:43Selesko. I'm going to allow you to talk

2:52:45if you want to unmute yourself. Hang on.

2:52:47There we go.

2:52:47>> Hi, can everyone hear me?

2:52:49>> Yes.

2:52:50>> Okay, hi. Um I just um wanted to first

2:52:54um

2:52:55uh

2:52:56express appreciation that uh a

2:52:58representative from the National

2:53:00Coalition for the Homelessness spoke

2:53:02tonight. I think the perspective in that

2:53:05presentation was incredibly important.

2:53:08Um I think we need to be listening more

2:53:10to the lived experiences of unhoused

2:53:13people.

2:53:14Um I really appreciated the last speaker

2:53:16who pointed out that um being unhoused

2:53:20does not mean that you're not working um

2:53:23or paying taxes. Many unhoused people

2:53:25are working multiple jobs um

2:53:27and the economic policies are designed

2:53:30to keep you poor. It's actually very

2:53:32expensive to be poor.

2:53:35Um

2:53:35what I do want to advocate for and I'm

2:53:38hopeful given that this is not resolving

2:53:40likely tonight is that public health um

2:53:44professionals um be consulted in this

2:53:48discussion. Um they are conspicuously

2:53:51absent from this discussion so far. Um

2:53:55I was in the call this morning with

2:53:58councilors Halappa, Davis, uh with Jeff

2:54:02Olivet. It was a gift to speak with him.

2:54:05He is one of the leading um experts,

2:54:08policy experts on the intersection of

2:54:10public health and public safety uh

2:54:12relating to homelessness. He literally

2:54:15led uh the Interagency Council on

2:54:17Homelessness for the Biden

2:54:19administration. He is available to speak

2:54:22and will speak to the council. I implore

2:54:25you to consult with him,

2:54:28um, on developing policies. Um, I

2:54:31greatly appreciate the experiences of

2:54:34from the first responders who were, um,

2:54:37the boots on the ground, as they have

2:54:40said. Um, but I think we need to be

2:54:43looking at solutions that are working in

2:54:45other communities,

2:54:47um, and looking at actual data and not

2:54:50anecdotes to drive public policy. One

2:54:54other point I want to close with is that

2:54:57although the encampments do pose risk to

2:54:59public health, encampment bans actually

2:55:02have worse public health outcomes. So,

2:55:05housing-first interventions and social

2:55:07services that include non-police

2:55:10mediated street outreach and street

2:55:12psychiatrists actually save lives and

2:55:15save taxpayers' money.

2:55:18Um, I've heard many times in this

2:55:20discussion that every day in an

2:55:22encampment is a worse day than the day

2:55:25before. And when I mentioned this to

2:55:28Jeff today, he said that it's actually

2:55:31homelessness that kills people, not time

2:55:34spent in an encampment. So, when

2:55:36unhoused people are relocated to

2:55:38shelters far from their work and support

2:55:41systems, they invariably spend more time

2:55:44homeless, and that is actually what's

2:55:47deadly. Um, so, in closing, I implore

2:55:50you to consult with public health

2:55:52professionals. Um, we have one of the

2:55:55world's leading experts, um, available

2:55:58to speak, and, um, I thank you for this

2:56:01discussion and, uh, around

2:56:04making these

2:56:06improving the ordinance, and also I

2:56:10I One closing point is that the

2:56:13ordinance is very reactive. We need to

2:56:15be starting to look at proactive

2:56:18solutions because this problem is only

2:56:21going to get worse as the Trump economic

2:56:23policies keep continue to decimate our

2:56:27economy. So, the city really needs to

2:56:30start being proactive. This ordinance is

2:56:34not going to solve it. Thank you.

2:56:36>> I'll note for anyone

2:56:38keeping score, I probably didn't start

2:56:40that timer until about a minute in and

2:56:42that's an error on my part. Uh but we

2:56:43still got

2:56:45the full 2 minutes after I started the

2:56:46timer.

2:56:48Um

2:56:49All right. So, we will move back to uh

2:56:51public comment is now closed out and uh

2:56:52we will move back um

2:56:55to the full council and I guess I'll

2:56:57hand it over to Councilor Davis to see

2:56:58what he would like to do with this

2:56:59amendment and then

2:57:01to the rest. I'm sorry, not the full

2:57:02council, back to the uh the committee um

2:57:05and then what the committee would like

2:57:06to do moving it into uh the full council

2:57:09or keeping it here.

2:57:10>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth. I will make a

2:57:12motion that this stays in committee with

2:57:14the hope that we um

2:57:16soon have um another meeting to tackle

2:57:19the votes on uh these amendments.

2:57:22I think there was some interest in it,

2:57:23at least two of them.

2:57:26>> And that would need a second to remain

2:57:28in committee.

2:57:29>> Second.

2:57:29>> Seconded by Councilor Halapa.

2:57:31Any further discussion?

2:57:33Uh Councilor Prosinski.

2:57:36Apologies, Councilor Prosinski. You

2:57:37asked for some time earlier and I I

2:57:39forgot that as well. I might be just

2:57:40getting too late for me. Sorry. Uh

2:57:42continue, sir.

2:57:43>> All right. Thank you, Chair Chair

2:57:44Hepworth. The

2:57:46timing is perfect because

2:57:48you know, after listening to uh

2:57:50everything tonight and in the past,

2:57:52none of us here have that the

2:57:54the miracle in our pocket to be able to

2:57:56solve this. We don't have that magic

2:57:58bullet. You know, the homelessness

2:58:00crisis confronting Salem is isn't simply

2:58:03a municipal problem.

2:58:04It's a statewide problem and it deserves

2:58:06statewide response.

2:58:08I spent more than four decades in law

2:58:10enforcement and I witnessed firsthand

2:58:13the consequences of the Commonwealth the

2:58:15decision to close institutions such as

2:58:19the Danvers State Hospital

2:58:21without ensuring adequate long-term

2:58:23treatment, supervision, and housing for

2:58:25individuals suffering from serious

2:58:28mental illness.

2:58:30Today, our police officers are often too

2:58:33often expected to serve as mental health

2:58:34professionals, social workers, and

2:58:37crisis intervention specialists. That is

2:58:39neither fair to our officers nor an

2:58:42appropriate way to care for vulnerable

2:58:45individuals.

2:58:46I support treating every person

2:58:48experiencing homelessness with dignity

2:58:50and compassion.

2:58:52But, compassion also means recognizing

2:58:54when someone needs professional

2:58:56psychiatric care, when they need

2:58:58supportive housing, or a level of

2:59:00assistance that a municipality simply

2:59:02cannot provide.

2:59:05Salem has every right and responsibility

2:59:07to protect its public spaces, its

2:59:09neighborhoods, businesses, and

2:59:11residents.

2:59:12Our camping ordinance is intended to

2:59:14address legitimate public health and

2:59:16safety concerns.

2:59:18But, no local ordinance can solve the

2:59:20underlying crisis.

2:59:22The Commonwealth of Massachusetts must

2:59:24accept greater responsibility for

2:59:26providing the treatment, housing, and

2:59:28supportive services that are needed.

2:59:31We cannot continue expecting individual

2:59:33communities, local taxpayers, police

2:59:36departments, fire departments, public

2:59:38safety to shoulder the consequences of a

2:59:40statewide failure.

2:59:42We need more than compassion in words.

2:59:44We need accountability, adequate

2:59:46resources, and meaningful actions from

2:59:49the Commonwealth.

2:59:51At the next council meeting,

2:59:53I will be submitting a resolution,

2:59:55hopefully with the support from the rest

2:59:57of the council, calling on Governor

2:59:59Healey and the Department of Mental

3:00:00Health and the Massachusetts Legislature

3:00:04to take a greater responsibility for for

3:00:06providing psychiatric care, supportive

3:00:08housing, and crisis services,

3:00:11not putting the burden on cities and

3:00:12towns who are not equipped, but still

3:00:15expected to find a solution. Thank you.

3:00:20>> Councilor Kwappa.

3:00:21>> Thank you, Chair Hepworth. I'll be brief

3:00:23here.

3:00:24Um you know, my my position after all

3:00:26this discussion in the last meeting and

3:00:28and you know, the meetings the last

3:00:29several years is that this this

3:00:31ordinance is causing more harm than

3:00:33good. And that's in the direct words of

3:00:35of one of our health professionals that

3:00:37we spoke with.

3:00:38And I think it's causing harm to

3:00:39different two different groups of

3:00:40people. It's causing harm for our housed

3:00:42residents,

3:00:44which this ordinance is not really

3:00:46effectively addressing the problem. I've

3:00:47talked about effectiveness a lot with

3:00:50this ordinance. And when I say that it's

3:00:51not effective, I mean it's not reducing

3:00:53the pain and suffering that people are

3:00:55experiencing, whether that's whether you

3:00:57are living in in the park or whether

3:00:59that's the park that your your kids

3:01:01would would spend time in and now they

3:01:02don't feel safe there. I don't think

3:01:04that's right. I think we need as a as a

3:01:06city to do more.

3:01:08But at the same time, I think that this

3:01:10is clearly harming

3:01:12the folks that are experiencing unhoused

3:01:16homelessness.

3:01:17You know, enforcement can be part of

3:01:19like a balanced breakfast of sorts and

3:01:20policy, but I'm not seeing the rest of

3:01:22that breakfast show up. I'm just seeing

3:01:24the grits.

3:01:26I don't really like grits. I'm sorry.

3:01:29Um

3:01:31I wants to do more than that. And

3:01:32knowing that this is causing harm,

3:01:34knowing that this is costing money, that

3:01:36resources that we could and should be

3:01:37allocating to solving the problem

3:01:39instead of just pushing it around.

3:01:42Um

3:01:44Yeah, I guess that's my my thought on

3:01:46this. Thank you.

3:01:48>> I don't know if this discussion right

3:01:49now is on the motion to leave this in

3:01:50committee. Any further discussion on the

3:01:53motion?

3:01:55All right. Seeing none.

3:01:57All those in favor from the committee

3:01:58that this remain in committee.

3:02:00Um

3:02:01all those in favor.

3:02:04Any opposed? Seeing none.

3:02:07Um the motion remains in committee.

3:02:10Any further motions?

3:02:13Motion to adjourn. All those in favor?

3:02:16We are adjourned.

3:02:19Thank you.

3:02:20Chief Miller,

3:02:21Captain Burke,

3:02:23and

3:02:24our guests online.