2026-10-27 - Board of Education Grievance Hearing

# transcript-source: whisper; whisper.cpp=1.9.5; model=ggml-small.en-q5_1.bin; vad=ggml-silero-v6.2.0.bin; language=en; transcribed=2026-11-10T06:41:49.093Z; job=tx-1794290996668-9xwe1p; source=https://cityofstamford.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=3&clip_id=16337

00:00.00] Let me just call the meeting to order at 204. I think everybody knows who everybody is, what roles they're playing.

00:05.96] And so the first thing we do here is for Sheila for the union, of course, to represent to present the grievance.

00:12.84] So please proceed. OK, thank you. So this is grievance 1026 that we had been denied on level two based off of the fact that

00:27.13] that there was a 16 G where we are was violated based off of there was two subject areas that was denied based off of the idea that I believe Ms.

00:39.71] Colman Harris believes that it's a domain reading is considered a domain of ESL.

00:48.37] So it's not considered two subject areas. Also blue team students at this time may be dismissed. All team colors have been called.

00:58.98] All students may be dismissed. Sorry about that. Then we also have a grievance on.

01:03.76] I mean, there's also 16 F, which has to do with the curriculum.

01:08.45] And so I added the amendment that shows basically that there is two separate curriculums that are very different on assessment,

01:17.21] that are very different on different standards, objectives, how their students are placed.

01:23.79] And so with those two and then the last part is a part of the board policy that has to do with the Bill of Rights of Parents,

01:35.79] where students who are being taken out of content area should not be being as an ESL student,

01:42.25] should not be being taken out of content area for reading support.

01:46.51] So those were the things that were denied on level two.

01:50.65] And so I brought it to level three based off of the fact that there is a multilanguage bill of rights on our website that basically states that English learners have a right to be in content area classes.

02:07.55] It's also part of state and federal laws of EEOA that they have a right to access equal education.

02:16.35] So to have them taken out of social studies is not a good idea.

02:20.36] They can be, you know, given extra reading, but not that. That's one.

02:24.91] The second part is Kumail's not being paid, considering he has the same kids.

02:32.57] He has one in reading class and one in the multilanguage learning classes, two separate curriculums under two different.

02:40.56] He has one job description, but that was an ESL.

02:44.71] He was given a reading class and now is teaching reading and language arts, two separate curriculums under our contract.

02:54.05] It clearly states if there's two separate subjects, he should be paid nine thousand one hundred and eighty five, I believe, dollars.

03:02.98] But that's under our contract. So we have a couple of violations we feel based off of the amendments I sent you where you can look that the two curriculums are very different.

03:16.35] Language Live is for ESL students that are trying to learn basic language proficiency and their social standards.

03:27.69] And if you look at Language Live, it has to do with the science of reading and the basics of that decoding.

03:34.91] So very different subjects. And also you have to remember there has to be different certifications for that.

03:43.67] I cannot teach ESL unless I'm certified in ESL. So Mr. Kumail is certified in both.

03:50.83] He's teaching K through six. He has a certification, I should say, in K through six and ESL.

03:59.04] Because I was concerned about this, I did mention this to the State Department, the director of the State Department of Multilanguage Learners in Connecticut.

04:08.39] She too agreed that the student should not be taken out of social studies. And she did say that because of his certification is in multilanguage,

04:19.13] it was not the highest quality of education for these students. But she did say it's a gray area he could teach reading under K through six.

04:29.70] But should he be teaching eighth grade intervention reading? I don't know. That's really a decision on teaching and learning.

04:38.27] But her name was Megan Alvaricki Flick. And she was the woman I spoke to at the state level.

04:45.67] I think that's about it. But really at the Bill of Rights, you guys could I did add that in at the bottom of the amendment.

04:55.85] So you could look at that as well. Thank you, Sheila. What remedies are being sought here?

05:04.38] Number one under the Bill of Rights, number two under 12 G. Yeah. So I added that on to the final part of my grievance originally,

05:14.99] which was to pay Mr. Kumail under Article 16 G nine thousand one hundred and fifty six dollars.

05:22.73] Also to provide essay with a copy of the official schedule, course codes and class rosters, because I had to go and get his rosters to show

05:33.64] that he was actually teaching the same kids twice a day under different jobs.

05:39.32] You know, he was teaching him under the reading and then under his ESL cert.

05:44.21] Identifying contractual and certification assignment letter, which he has an assignment letter that states he's an ESL teacher.

05:51.38] It does not say he's a multi language reading teacher, which we do have a job description for that.

05:59.69] But it's for the high school level, it's a multi language learner job description.

06:05.05] He is not teaching under that. He's teaching under his M.L. as an M.L. teacher.

06:12.43] So he would need an updated job description if he's planning on teaching, reading and M.L.

06:20.41] OK, and then so, Sheila, with respect, Andy, I'll get to you in one second.

06:24.18] With respect to the Bill of Rights, you mentioned that, you know, what would you like us to do if we find a violation of that?

06:31.94] Well, that's that to me is a problem because they're doing this in sixth grade as well.

06:38.02] They're taking students out of sixth grade and I don't know about seventh, seventh and eighth grade.

06:43.90] Students are coming out of social studies to go and to get support in reading.

06:50.38] They can come out of music, but they are not allowed to come out of content area classes.

06:55.65] And literally social studies has been identified as a content level class.

07:01.99] My solution would be you can't do that. I don't know how else you can say that. It's not good.

07:10.08] All right, I understand. Thank you. And then this is immaterial and Andy, I see you have your hand up.

07:14.85] But if you look at appendix, the appendices to the collective bargaining agreement,

07:21.57] the amount that you stated for if we find that there are two subjects being taught here,

07:29.84] MS in a middle school teacher teaching two subjects for this year is nine thousand and twenty one dollars.

07:36.27] Oh, sorry. That's OK. Yeah. For next year, it's ninety one fifty six.

07:39.58] And that's my photo game. Immaterial just pointing that out. OK, Andy, thank you.

07:44.00] Yeah, I just procedurally, since there's this additional information that's been supplied by

07:54.27] the union, I guess I just turned to Dr. Fernandez and say,

07:59.26] does I mean, you you rendered your decision at level two without that information.

08:06.78] So does this I don't know if you've had a chance to review the new information that was provided.

08:11.86] I mean, is this going to I guess what I'm questioning is like,

08:15.52] does this have to really be re reviewed at level two again because it's been amended.

08:22.37] Mike, if you're being muted, thank you for that.

08:32.75] I'll say that I did review the amendment that Sheila submitted and it would not change our level

08:39.59] two decision. So I think it's fine to proceed here. OK. Sheila, if you have nothing else to

08:46.43] add, then you would go ahead, please. I'm sorry. I just would really make sure that

08:52.75] as all teachers who don't have don't have a certification at ESL or are kind of that

08:59.23] of that nature, they do say there's four domains in ESL, speaking, listening, reading, writing.

09:06.97] And what the central office has decided was that reading one domain is considered the same as a

09:16.54] reading intervention, which is language live class, which is what I teach. So that's where

09:22.21] I think with the, you know, when when I received Dr. Fernandez answer, I was still a little

09:30.72] concerned that they're looking at this as reading as a domain. It's just part of learning ESL.

09:38.33] It's not a false class like I could if I'm not certified, I can't teach ESL.

09:45.47] I am certified in ESL, but I'm saying I couldn't, you know, if I wasn't,

09:51.13] because it is a separate class, it's a different class, it's not a reading class. And

09:56.67] as I've done, you know, college level classes, they've also agreed with the fact that reading

10:03.46] an ESL is not the same and they have struggled for a long time to make sure that is not looked

10:10.67] at upon by different school systems. Gotcha. All right, Mr. Fernandez, Dr. Fernandez,

10:20.49] you know, your time. Thank you, Mr. Vandevoort, appreciate it. I'm just going to start by saying

10:27.79] that I want the board to know that we, I and our team appreciated the opportunity to informally

10:35.78] work with the SCA on this particular case, as well as two others. We were able to resolve

10:43.15] informally two other situations involving two other teachers. We were not able to come to

10:50.04] agreement on this case, but I appreciated the cooperation and work that we did informally

10:56.90] to try to resolve most of this. So I'll say, you know, we see it differently. John likes

11:03.50] when I say that and we just, we see it differently. I, you know, in my level two decision,

11:10.65] I supported a decision that Ms. Cobanaris made at level one. Mr. Kumail is certified in TESOL.

11:19.10] He's assigned five sections of ML students. This is different than last year, where he wasn't

11:28.19] assigned solely ML students, where compensating him for two different subject areas was granted

11:36.61] last year. He is teaching under the four language domains, listening, speaking, reading, and writing.

11:45.54] And based on that, in my review, we do not feel that he is teaching two different subject areas

11:53.98] as written in the contract with the example of math and social studies. And I'll say initially,

12:00.20] I was around when this language was developed. It was for teachers that taught two core. Initially,

12:06.42] it was for two core, different core subject areas. Additionally, we did check with the

12:16.60] state on certification for Mr. Kumail to teach these courses. We know that as he had concerns,

12:24.44] he is appropriately certified as a TESOL teacher to deliver a literacy and reading intervention.

12:31.87] We know that firsthand. I know Ms. Baldari also consulted with the state regarding the concerns

12:39.33] around the multilingual Bill of Rights. And she could speak to what she was told regarding that.

12:49.17] So, we stand by our position that Mr. Kumail is not teaching two different subjects that require

12:55.57] payment of this additional $9,000 stipend. Okay, thank you. I have a couple of questions. So,

13:01.53] if we could focus on the thing from last year that you mentioned. So, I mean, can you distinguish

13:07.58] what occurred last year from what is being asked this year? Because, I mean, not to be overly

13:14.10] legalistic, but if you paid somebody for doing something last year that sort of creates an

13:19.66] equitable reliance interest, they'll get the same sort of thing this year unless it was clarified

13:23.74] in some way. But anyway, can you address that? Well, I'll say this year, we had a teacher

13:30.14] that was teaching, geez, I'm forgetting now. What was it Sheila, Mr.? Oh, the drama teacher?

13:39.03] Buresh? Yeah, he was teaching a drama class. And then in our class, it's journalism and drama.

13:45.38] And they, yeah, that would be an example. He did get, he was working under those two

13:51.55] different domains, but I don't even say domains, two different subject areas. And he now is being

13:58.45] paid this year because last year they considered him a reading teacher, I guess, I don't know.

14:04.79] And so that was that like Kumar was teaching a sixth grade reading class that was not necessarily

14:13.27] ESL students. They were a reading class. And then he was teaching ESL class. So that would

14:19.39] be my, I think what you're talking about is the difference. Am I right? Yeah. So that's why he

14:25.78] got the stipend last year. The distinction was that he had a group of students that were not

14:31.01] multilingual students. He's a TESOL certified teacher. All of his sections are with

14:39.21] students that fall under that certification. And even though he's teaching these two different

14:45.14] programs, he's working with all students that are ML students. I'll just give you another

14:50.46] example. And I'm just trying to come up with things. We have reading interventionists. Sheila

14:55.74] is one of them. Would we say if she taught two different reading intervention programs,

15:00.41] that she should be entitled to a $9,000 stipend. I would say no, she's a reading intervention

15:05.37] teacher. She's teaching reading. She's teaching reading. He's teaching. Mr. Kumar is teaching

15:13.05] the language domains of ML students. So that's how we see it as an example.

15:19.07] So I'm sorry for my stupidity. So last year he was teaching two things that were found to be in

15:25.94] different subject areas. So can I clarify? This is a grievance hearing and we can't have Ms. Bragg

15:37.93] interrupting the administration's presentation. If a specific question is addressed to Ms. Bragg,

15:44.71] then of course, but it's just disruptive. Ms. Bragg will have every opportunity to clarify

15:51.91] the position of the SEA, but it's a little more formal than a conversation here.

15:57.74] Thanks, Tommy. I found it not to be disruptive, but I'd take your point. All right. So Mike,

16:05.61] I'll first address this question to you. So last year he was, Mr. Kumar was found to be

16:14.31] teaching two different subject areas and that resulted in the stipend. And what were those,

16:19.67] can you repeat what were those subject areas? He was teaching reading intervention to non-ML

16:25.73] students. And then he was teaching his TESOL to ML students. So we have a distinction from this

16:40.18] year. This isn't necessarily dispositive, but I mean, that sounds like it's sort of to a lay

16:53.14] person that sounds like it's sort of in the same subject area, but you guys found it, I mean,

16:57.68] it's, you know, it's reading and then, and then, uh, and then an ML. So part of a ML teacher's job

17:06.28] is to teach reading. It's part of the four domains that they teach to ML students. Right.

17:14.75] That's not, um, pertinent to general ed students. I think that's the distinction.

17:20.57] Amy, if you want to elaborate on any of this, please do. Yeah. I mean, I would just say that,

17:25.40] um, our, uh, ML department has worked hard on, um, finding research-based interventions for our

17:33.62] ML teachers to use and also worked really hard, uh, with building principles and teachers to

17:40.77] identify which intervention, um, you know, is most effective to getting students to, uh, reach

17:48.01] their academic, uh, potential and exit ML. Right. So we have, uh, our students take the lost links.

17:54.49] We look at that data. We look at their, uh, I ready data and we, uh, you know, have students

18:00.33] who are ML students who are very strong in speaking and listening, but they're reading

18:04.69] and writing skills may be quite low still, um, which is really preventing them from accessing

18:10.03] the curriculum, but also exiting ML services. And so we're trying to match, you know, student

18:14.95] profiles, student data profiles with the right intervention. And so we have ML teachers in our

18:20.53] district with some groups, they're teaching language live and with other groups they're using

18:24.64] Lachieve. Um, and, and though the purposes of those programs are, are slightly different,

18:31.04] um, all intended to build the language and literacy skills of our ML students. So,

18:36.32] um, you know, Mr. Call is not the only one that's teaching, you know, two different types of

18:41.09] programs, um, with, you know, the same type of student, but that doesn't, uh, in our opinion,

18:47.75] doesn't necessitate that he's teaching different subjects. I'm going to send one clarification.

18:52.82] Mr. Vandervoort, uh, last year he was required to have two distinct certifications to teach those

18:59.78] two classes. So I hope that has taken into consideration. Mr. Kumal has a, I believe

19:05.45] it's a case six certification, which allowed him to teach sixth grade reading intervention.

19:10.97] Unlike this year where he's only working under his, um, T-SOL certification. Gotcha. Uh, Ms.

19:19.35] Bell-Dottie, well, while we have you, um, so I think, uh, Ms. Bragg, um, you know,

19:25.27] helpfully articulated what the administration's position is with respect to the bill of rights,

19:30.13] but, uh, could you, is there anything you would care to add to elaborate? Yeah. So in, in a, in a

19:36.25] perfect world, right, we'd have, uh, endless time in a school day to give students everything

19:41.63] that they need. Um, sometimes our students, um, require, you know, multiple types of intervention

19:48.39] and in a, in a six period day, um, when students need, uh, you know, ML support and, and special

19:55.89] education support or ML support and reading support. Um, if we, if they go, if they attend

20:02.25] the four core and then have two periods of intervention, they literally have no opportunity

20:06.93] to participate in art, music, PE, um, you know, any other exploratory. And that becomes a very,

20:14.08] um, I would say not a very fun day for a middle school student to be in four core subjects and

20:21.46] two interventions, right? That would be their entire day. So sometimes we have to make hard

20:26.45] choices and we are pulling out, um, some students, uh, at Ripple WAM and, and we've done this in the

20:33.62] past, um, for, for honestly quite a few years at, at our, at the middle school level for students

20:39.07] who are duly identified or for students really needing the support of language and reading. Um,

20:46.33] and social studies has been the area that, uh, we have found to be the best of a poor decision

20:54.23] that we have to make, I would say. Uh, social studies does not have its own, um, standards.

21:00.60] Uh, social studies relies on literacy standards. Um, while it does have its own content, um,

21:06.70] it doesn't have its separate set of standards. So, um, it is the, you know, best, uh, place

21:13.34] to pull out of, um, and we have, I've also talked to Megan as has Dr. Laura Green. Um, Megan, um,

21:22.38] understands sort of the constraints of a middle school schedule. Uh, this was actually brought up

21:27.66] at the social studies, um, state workshop, uh, as a problem of practice across districts where many

21:34.05] districts are struggling with duly identified students and students requiring lots of intervention

21:38.93] to, to reach grade level. Um, and it's, it's a practice that, um, you know, we are using with

21:44.92] a finite number of students. Um, and as students are, you know, able to, um, you know, improve

21:51.72] their reading skills or, uh, exit ML. Certainly we will return them to, uh, social studies. I think

21:58.44] we're, it's nine students, I believe in the eighth grade at, at, uh, Ripawam. My numbers might be a

22:03.24] little off. Um, but it's, it's, you know, we're not doing it for every ML student, right? And so

22:08.34] that's where Megan said, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say I, you know, I support this

22:13.38] decision, but she understands the constraints and, and our responsibility. Um, and her ask was to

22:20.34] make sure that parents know this and our, our parents do know this. Um, Ms. Colman Harris has,

22:26.01] um, let the families know that this is, you know, what, what we are doing to support their children.

22:31.83] Um, and so, you know, it's with, you know, with full transparency that they are not in social

22:37.11] studies, that they are sort of getting a double dose of, of intervention. Gotcha. And Ms. Beldotti,

22:43.57] I don't know if this is best addressed to you or Dr. Fernandez, but, um, you know, the, uh, the

22:50.10] statements and the grievance or the allegations and the agreements regarding, uh, like updating

22:54.75] a job description, providing documents, providing timely notice of what somebody's teaching, uh,

23:00.45] where, you know, where those defects present here. And, um, do you have any comment as to

23:05.90] why they existed if they existed? Um, I'm not sure how to answer that. I guess I'll say that

23:15.42] Mr. Kumau was given an assignment letter and I didn't look at the assignment letter. My

23:23.15] understanding and if I'm incorrect, please correct me, is that he would be, uh, teaching, uh, TESOL

23:30.20] for his, uh, complete FTE. And that's what he's doing. I understand Ms., um, um, Sheila, Ms. Bragg

23:43.47] is a position on this, but, uh, there is a separate position at the high schools where they're

23:49.97] working specifically with high school students that are very low readers. Uh, we see this a

23:55.27] little bit differently. So I'm not sure there's a need to update the job description as she

23:59.83] requested. Um, he's working under his job description as a TESOL teacher. Gotcha. All

24:08.48] right. Uh, Ms. Bragg, I do have, uh, kind of a, kind of a question for you or an observation,

24:14.44] which I would like you to sort of react to. So if you look at, um, you know, if we look at,

24:18.92] uh, 16, 16 G in the, uh, in the collective bargaining agreement, so it says compensation

24:27.09] for teachers who teach two different subject areas at the middle school level, e.g. math

24:33.81] and social studies will be negotiated. Um, it's, you know, it's kind of a, it's kind of a steep

24:41.72] hill climb to find that something, um, that is sort of, you know, basically related in the

24:49.36] popular understanding here. I mean, like, you know, reading intervention and learning how to,

24:53.36] learning how to speak and read English, uh, those seem like they're in the same subject area to a

24:59.73] lay person. Um, you know, I mean, at least with the example here, given math and social studies,

25:05.75] I mean, feels more like sort of geometry and algebra than it does like, you know, I don't know,

25:12.35] algebra and, uh, you know, and, and, and physics or something. But, uh, even though those are kind

25:18.15] of related anyway, do you, could you kind of help me understand more? Yeah, I would tell, I would

25:23.27] disagree with that just because I'm certified in both. And I have recently just got my certification

25:29.83] in ESL and, um, it is completely different. You have variety of, um, multi-language learners in

25:39.17] a classroom where you're not sure of their historical background of education. So teaching

25:45.09] an ESL class is more exposure or acquisition of language, whereas reading would be looking at the

25:52.67] five domains of reading, which is fought, it could be comprehension, vocabulary building, um, and

26:01.87] looking at phonics based depending on if you're an interventionist or not. So it is a totally

26:08.85] separate, I had to go get certified in ESL just so I could be with students who are ESL and teach

26:16.31] them reading. They wouldn't have said I could have teaching, I couldn't teach ESL. And most to even,

26:23.74] so, so that's where I see the difference. And I also see the, the actual curriculum is very

26:29.70] different. The assessments are different. The, um, like I said before, how they're even the

26:36.50] standards are different. So I look at it a little bit differently, um, that there, I know you, it

26:42.78] sounds like reading and, and I think that's been the struggle for a lot of, um, people in ESL to

26:49.45] kind of break away from that reading. Because years ago they did say that reading kind of fell

26:55.77] under it. And the state was went against that because I used to teach, I read read 180 and some

27:01.93] of the ESL kit teachers taught that. And then the state department put an end to that. They

27:07.20] weren't allowed to teach read 180, you know, they would allow to have ESL because they had to find

27:11.64] another, um, state standard program for specifically for MLs. And that just took place in like

27:19.52] probably two in the early maybe 2000s. I can't remember when that was going on, but I was a

27:26.52] reading teacher at the time and the ESL teacher next door to me had to stop teaching read 180

27:32.51] and system 44 because it was a reading program. It was not an ESL program. And they were,

27:40.04] the state went, came down on Stanford as saying they couldn't teach that they had to get an ESL

27:45.59] program specifically. So I, I do see that I even struggle with the idea that Kumala is teaching

27:53.44] remedial reading because if you do look up the, the, um, the state standards of who teaches

28:02.15] remedials, it's clearly a 102. It does. If you scroll all the way down, you'll see remedial

28:07.75] readers as one Oh twos. You can teach reading. You're right. You can teach reading under a

28:12.86] K through six. He's teaching eighth graders. He's teaching it under his ML cert, which is

28:19.13] like, I, I, like I said, the director of, um, of ML said, you know, yeah, he it's gray, but

28:27.84] is he the high, most highly qualified? No. Is he okay? Yes. He's not good. Like

28:33.09] Ms. Baldotti said, you know, they, the, the state department did say, yeah, he could teach reading, but

28:40.51] is it the best qualified educator? No. And with my biggest problem, when I found out, like I said,

28:46.78] this came up in layers, like, you know, when I found out from a science teacher who was saying

28:51.82] to me, why does the social studies teacher have the ML kids leaving and not the science? And she

28:57.49] has all of the ML kids with no support. And she said, I have reading going on in my class. And I

29:03.30] said, I didn't know that he was pulling kids. I had no idea. So I had no, and because I went to

29:09.44] power school, I found out she's listing everything as ESL. That's not the case. It's the kids are

29:16.57] being pulled out of a social studies class for reading, which is against what I'm saying to you.

29:22.79] As I stated, it says all access to core grade level subject matter. That's what the state law

29:30.99] says. Ms. Bell Dottie, um, a question about, um, you know, the, when, when one is, when one is

29:39.27] teaching, uh, to multilingual learners, and if you're pulling them out of social studies,

29:45.18] I assume that these individual, I assume that these students are relatively proficient in

29:50.39] English to begin with. I mean, if they're in, if they're in social studies, um, you know, is it,

29:55.65] is it, um, if I, if I were looking to try to distinguish between, um, you know, uh, what is,

30:04.82] what's being alleged here is a different subject. What Mr. Kumala is doing, um, does he have to

30:12.33] have proficiency in a language other than English in order to be effective, uh, in one, you know,

30:21.22] in one of these things that he's doing, but not in the other, or is that, or is that, is that not,

30:26.69] it's your mind, a helpful way of looking at this. I, I just want to make sure I understand your

30:32.43] question. Does Mr. Kumala all need to be proficient in a language other than English? No,

30:37.10] that's not a requirement of a TESOL teacher. Okay. That would only be required of a bilingual

30:42.06] teacher who may be providing language in a student's native language. So our bilingual

30:48.34] teachers are, um, you know, they are, they are Spanish and English speakers, but a TESOL teacher,

30:54.70] that's not a requirement. Gotcha. Um, Andy, uh, Jen, do you guys have any questions?

31:02.41] Yeah, I have one, if you know, Ms. Braggart, or if he is there. So what is the, um,

31:10.77] what is his roster size? How many students does he have this year? Uh, I did highlight some. I

31:17.15] don't have an official, um, roster of kids. I do have, I, I, he just left to teach, I think he's a

31:25.57] coach somewhere. So I would have to get you those numbers, but I did, even if it's ballpark,

31:32.45] Amy, can you pull it up? Oh, that's right. Amy, Amy is looking it up. Do we know how,

31:39.94] does he have to do extra preps because of having these different differentiated students or what

31:49.04] you believe to be differentiated students? No, he's not required Andy to have any additional

31:54.89] preps. And I would, I would assume his overall caseload is probably very reasonable. Thanks.

32:04.61] Andy, I just wanted to, sorry, I'm still driving. If he's teaching, I was going to bring this up

32:13.35] before respect to what Mike had said about, uh, and I'm going to, I'm paraphrasing Mike. I'm

32:20.34] sorry about, you know, the high school level and whatever. And when Adam brought up, um, the, the

32:28.98] geometry and, and all that we do, I'm trying to make the comparison. I've been listening

32:34.69] intensively to, uh, Sheila and Mike and Amy and their explanations, as you said, prep. So I can,

32:42.92] we pay a teacher at the secondary level, 10% if they have more than four preps. Okay. And what

32:49.00] it's come down to here is, you know, we go by syllabi, we go by course number, we go by course

32:55.50] description. And I have had the conversation with teaching and learning in the district

33:01.14] many times and the best way and Amy can clarify, uh, if she needs to, the way the SCA looks at it

33:08.85] as is if there's a syllabi and a course description or a course of study that is different from a

33:16.77] different one, like CP and honors, we would count them as two. And we have an agreement with the

33:22.86] district that certain CP and honors, but can be, can be joined together, but they would still be

33:28.70] considered two preps. In this case, Mr. Kumail, they are two different course studies, you know,

33:36.37] one has one syllabi and description and one has another. And that is a prerequisite that

33:44.11] we look at. Now, Mike said, when the contract was changed, and with all due respect to Mike,

33:49.15] Mike's interpreting the contract language. He wasn't there when the contract language was

33:54.04] changed to, uh, pay a teacher at the middle school level. It used to be negotiated and

34:01.89] under Jackie Hefner, when she was president, it got changed to, you know, we came up with the

34:07.57] stipend of ninth, whatever the stipend is $9,021 or whatever it is, it doesn't mean that it needs

34:14.85] to be two separate, uh, courses. It could be a specialist who teaches art and then takes on,

34:23.43] um, uh, a math class or whatever. We have compensation for that, whether it's 20% at

34:30.92] the per diem rate or they're taking on another subject, but it was never intended that it needed

34:36.44] to be a course of two different core subjects. So I hope I kind of explained it a little bit

34:42.54] better. I don't know if I did Andy or not, but I'm hoping that I shed a little light on that.

34:47.65] Yeah. Uh, John, um, uh, um, art and, uh, what do you say? Art and math. I mean,

34:55.85] those sound like two, those are two different subject areas to me.

35:00.01] Well, that's what I was trying to say, but my understanding of Mike Adam was that, uh,

35:05.29] you know, it had to be two core content because the example, I think is math and social studies.

35:11.20] Yeah. Right. So the two different core contents, but it's just not specific to core content.

35:17.04] There's compensation in all different ways for, uh, if you're an art teacher and you're teaching

35:22.59] a math teacher, are you picking up a vacancy or, you know, so there is language to compensate

35:27.79] people. And in this case, what Ms. Bragg saying is reading is definitely different than the,

35:33.47] the T-Saw work that he's doing. And we would further say based on, you know, whether it's

35:39.39] course number syllabi, whatever it is, that's what distinguishes that it's two different things.

35:46.62] And that's why I was just trying to shed light on it that way for clarification.

35:50.78] They may disagree, but that's, I just wanted to put that out there.

35:54.72] Thank you. Ms. Bragg, I see you have your hand up and I found one of the reasons one of my

36:00.83] restitutions would be to get clarity on his class descriptions. And you had asked me how many were

36:06.43] in there. And one of the reasons why I asked for that was because I have period two ESL eighth

36:12.55] grade period for ESL eighth grade. And it is hard to figure out who are the reading kids and who are

36:19.23] the, the, um, the ESL kids because he's teaching them twice a day under an ESL listing of power

36:27.74] school. So that was one of the reasons why I was struggling to figure out. I had to go and find

36:33.24] out copies and I still don't have a completed list. And my other point to John, what he just said,

36:39.86] just so you're aware, there is a specific job description that is at the high school

36:45.94] called multi-language learning reading specialist. They have a 102 and an ESL. That's what they're,

36:53.80] it's required or asked for as the best possible solution. He has a job description as well as

37:01.83] ESL teacher. And then there's a job description for an English teacher. We don't even have a

37:07.83] job description for reading. So if he was hired under the multi-language learning reading teacher

37:14.90] as the high school teachers are, because they had job description, they just hired, uh, someone this

37:19.62] year for that. We could have had that in the, I would love to see that happen in the middle

37:23.91] schools that we actually have reading specialists with MLs. That would be perfect. But I don't

37:29.48] think in this situation, that's the problem here is he's pulling kids from social studies

37:36.36] that, you know, should not be being pulled number one. And number two, he's, there's no reading

37:42.48] certification. It's under two separate periods, two separate curriculums that have two separate,

37:49.85] you know, it's, it's not a domain. It is a domain in one class. But I'm saying

37:54.91] we have two separate curriculums, two separate periods as two separate assessments. I do

38:00.98] assessment for intervention. He does one for loss. So there's two separate everything that's,

38:08.34] that's where the concern is. Thank you. And just a thread that Andy touched on,

38:15.55] there's no assertion here that Mr. Kumall is doing more than four teaching preparations,

38:21.41] right? Okay. He does five. He does five. He does five individual preps. Yeah, we all do five. We

38:27.20] all in the middle school's different. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Can I, I just want to go back to Mr.

38:37.46] George's question. So he, Mr. Kumall has 47 students that he sees for ESL services. And then

38:45.58] he pushes in and co-teaches for another group of eighth graders, 27. They're probably some of,

38:53.50] some of those 27 in that room are his students that he pulls out. And then he pushes in and

38:57.86] supports them in their English language arts class. I just, I just want to clarify that we

39:03.54] do have a position at the high school. And the reason is, is that our high schools are four times

39:08.08] as big as our middle school. So we need a full-time person doing this work at the high school,

39:14.06] because that's what, that's what the need is. We don't have that same need for as many sections

39:20.12] at our middle school. So that's why we don't have a separate, but it does not require

39:26.17] two certifications. There's a whole list of certifications that are acceptable at the high

39:30.84] school level for this position. TESOL being one of them or reading, you don't need both. So I

39:36.04] just want to clarify that. Thank you. All right, Andy, Jen, if, if anybody has anything else to say

39:45.65] or questions to ask, if not, we can perhaps, perhaps move into our side session to sort out

39:52.08] the different threads there. I just wanted to follow up on a question of Ms. Beltati about

39:59.80] preps in middle school and what the expectations are. And by preps, I mean different class

40:11.97] preparations, not different subjects. Yeah, I, the, the language in the contract, I, I believe

40:19.76] speaks to the number of preps at the high school. Yeah, it's in, it's on page 31. It's, you know,

40:29.19] 16 F says if an, if an academic area secondary teacher is assigned and mutually agrees to more

40:36.79] than four teaching preparations, he/she will receive 10%. So Amy, just to clarify, the practice

40:47.54] in the district is that middle school teachers are not covered by that sentence. Yeah, not,

40:56.04] not in my, but he doesn't have that anyway, because he's teaching multiple sections of

41:03.08] ESL eight. So he wouldn't hit that number anyway, but that's never really been in my

41:12.55] history in central office, something that we've talked about that at the middle school level with

41:17.20] the number of preps. It's a high school because they are, they're teaching a variety of different

41:21.83] classes. The middle school tends to repeat their, you know, classes throughout the day.

41:26.31] I see. And just on this particular situation, how many preps would you say Mr. Kamal has?

41:33.92] Well, let me pull it back up. Three. And, and since you were able to say that, could you just

41:45.30] tell us what those three are? Sure. ESL eight, ESL six and ESL seven. Thank you.

41:58.40] Hey, Ms. Bragg, how would that, how does that reconcile to your statement of five?

42:06.51] I believe you may be on mute. Quiet. I'm trying to be quiet. So he has five classes. I mean,

42:16.68] he pushes into several and then he has two ESL, I believe in two reading classes. So he doesn't,

42:23.62] he does have to prep for two separate classes, one for reading for language live and one for

42:29.94] the, the other ESL class. And then he does go into and support classes in the language arts.

42:36.61] So would that take a Ms. Bell Dottie's three and move it to four or cause Ms. Bell Dottie said

42:48.29] there are three preps, ESL eight, ESL seven, ESL six. And you just said that there, that there,

42:55.13] that there is a distinction. There's a distinction there, which sounded like it added an additional

42:58.97] one, which moved from three to four, but you originally had said five. Five classes, Adam.

43:08.48] Okay. If I could chime in, I would agree with Mrs. Bell Dottie, Adam, and Jen and Andy and Tom.

43:18.27] It's rare. I can't even remember a time where an middle school teacher, although the contract

43:25.34] language is distinct when it says secondary. So it accounts first grade six through 12,

43:31.82] a middle school teacher prepping for four more classes is, I don't want to say, but it's almost

43:40.01] unheard of. In the day when we had CP and honors, it was, you know, and you taught your four classes,

43:46.52] you had two preps, you prepped for two CP classes and you prepped for two honors classes.

43:52.28] Now, if you teach grade six, seven, and eight, just, you know, content classes,

43:58.04] all right, you're, you're, you're a social studies teacher or a math teacher, one of the four major,

44:02.28] you know, content areas, your teach, your prepping really is for that one content area.

44:09.48] You may have to tweak it. You may have to, you know, based on your, your kids, but

44:14.68] it's, it's social studies, grade six. Okay. Where the high school, like you were saying before,

44:21.48] Adam, you know, I may be teaching five classes and I could have one, you know, I'm going to

44:29.03] make it up because the math has changed. I am one and I am two since I came into this seat, but

44:34.07] you may be prepping for four different classes, you know, trig, algebra two, I'm going to go the

44:39.03] old way, even though it's, I am one, I am two. The issue here isn't preps, okay. Or the amount

44:45.29] of preps that Mr. Kamal has. I think Sheila did an amazing job in saying, and I thought I clarified

44:52.09] it. We're talking about two different subjects, the reading portion versus the ESL T saw portion,

44:59.06] not the actual number of reps that he has to prep for. Because when you prep for reading,

45:05.46] you're, you're prepping for reading. Now he does prep grade six, grade seven and grade eight,

45:11.39] which most middle school teachers teach one grade, right? You're an art teacher,

45:16.58] whatever you're prepping for different grades. So I don't think Amy would, would disagree

45:21.14] or argue that six is different than seven and it's different than eight, but the majority,

45:26.64] right? But if you're prepping, if you're Mr. Kamal and you're prepping six, seven and eight ESL,

45:32.32] and then you're prepping at least one separate reading, maybe two, then we would come back and

45:38.25] say that would fall under the 10%. But the, the priority more here is that he's got reading,

45:44.96] which again is a separate subject area. We are saying that as Mike said, they don't see it that

45:51.78] way. And I think that's, that's the biggest part of this grievance, the pulling out of social

45:57.30] studies. Amy said, yeah, the state said, you know, we see what you need the lesser of two evils. We

46:03.41] had to pull them out of something. So social studies is the, you know, the least of pulling

46:08.37] somebody out instead of the ELA math or science will pull them out of cell studies because the

46:13.57] social studies is deemed reading. They're getting the reading in the ELA class. I followed what

46:18.85] Amy said there. So I guess the state saying, we don't want you to do it, but the lesser of two

46:23.89] evils. And when you got to do it, you do it. That's also a great thing. But here it is. He's,

46:30.11] he's prepping for two separate subject areas. And that's why Ms. Bragg did an amazing job saying

46:37.49] he's entitled to the stipend of the $9,021 while the other stuff, you know, pushed aside.

46:44.35] I hear you, Ms. Bragg. Yeah, no, I just wanted to say, and I, I agree with John, um, as far as

46:56.08] that piece, but I also would love to know at the state department, because I did talk to the

47:01.43] director who kind of said no content area should not be used to be pulled out. So I would love to

47:07.11] see where the central office found their resource for that. Cause I'd know they answered me in the

47:12.87] grievance, but I didn't get who they spoke to. Cause I did speak to the director of ML. Um, and,

47:19.58] and she didn't want to say, I asked her for something in writing. She did. She said it's

47:23.42] nothing legal, but there is a problem when there's a being pulled from content area,

47:29.15] because they are allowed to have equal access to education. And so that we are my biggest

47:34.22] concern. We spoke to the same person. I spoke to Megan, who we talked to probably almost every

47:39.09] day. Um, she, oh, we asked her the same question. Will you put that in writing? Um, no, I prefer

47:44.64] not to. Um, so we did have a conversation. It was at the social studies, um, workshop.

47:51.33] I'm forgetting the name of it. It's social studies. It's the, it's our cohort up at CES,

47:55.89] um, that we meet with monthly. Um, and it was brought up as a problem of practice again,

48:00.28] across districts. And so we need to talk to her both in that, that group, um, but also one-on-one

48:06.15] with Megan afterwards. And we asked her to put it in writing and she said, no. Okay. That's good

48:11.87] to know. I just, I really wasn't sure because like I said, I was very just talking to Megan

48:16.99] all the time. Yeah. Well, that's good. I, I just was very concerned over if this is a continued

48:22.83] practice of being pulled in sixth grade now and seventh and eighth. I find that pretty disturbing

48:29.00] because I truly believe that teachers should be differentiating in the classroom and helping

48:35.66] those students in the classroom and using their time to allow them to act with, um, learn the

48:41.10] language in the classroom. So I don't, I disagree with the idea of pulling kids out of any content

48:47.46] area because they are allowed to have equal access. Um, I, I just see, I see it as a problem

48:54.02] that if we start it one way, we're going to continue with that and that could be a problem.

48:58.46] So that's my concern. That's why I brought it into it. Once I heard the science teacher

49:02.93] complaining, I was like, wait a minute. This is bigger than just a Kumail issue. You know what

49:07.81] I mean? So, um, that's how it kind of got mixed in. Um, Mr. Van Der Hoard, you know what I mean?

49:14.24] No, I get you. And I view this as somewhat of an ancillary issue, but, but nevertheless,

49:19.38] potentially important. Uh, but you know, at the same time, the district is obviously

49:23.52] resource constrained and it's one thing for the state to put these, you know, to say this,

49:27.25] it's another thing for the state to, you have to try to comply with it. Okay. Um, does anybody

49:32.90] else have anything they'd like to say or else we can, uh, we can move into our separate session.

49:36.96] Nobody has anything else. All right. Uh, Jen Gonzalez. Yeah. We'd like to move over there

49:44.51] and everybody else, please stick around. This may just take us a minute to sort out the different

49:48.55] threads. All right. We are back, um, you know, actually exactly at three o'clock. Um, so, uh,

50:06.32] we deliberated and, uh, I make a motion to deny grievance, uh, 1026, um, for reasons that it

50:14.76] will be set forth in the opinion to be issued timely following this hearing. Is there a second?

50:20.73] Yeah. I see, uh, I see Mr. George, uh, seconded. And then, so we should have a vote all in favor

50:28.65] of, uh, of the denial of the grievance. Okay. Three zero zero. All right. Thank you very much,

50:36.87] everybody for, uh, your time and considering this and, uh, you know, we will, we, you know,

50:42.47] our opinion will be forthcoming and we'll see you later. Thank you very much. Thank you.