2026-10-15 - Historic District Commission

00:00:05Good evening and welcome to the Historic District Commission meeting, ten 2026. Today is October 15th, 2026. I am vice chair Michael Goldfinger. We are joined in City Hall by Commissioners Anita Neal Powell and Mercy Chair Pete Foster,

00:00:26and Commissioner Seth Dembo are unable to attend tonight's meeting. In addition, we are joined by city staff Nick Dumais, acting deputy City Attorney Megan Flick, principal planner, and Katie Gerber's comprehensive planning manager for the historic District commission. Meets in person in

00:00:48the mayor and council chambers at Rockville City Hall, 111 Maryland Avenue. The public is invited to participate in person or virtually via WebEx. The meetings can be viewed on Rockville 11, channel 11, on county cable, and live streamed at Rockville, MD. Dot gov 11. Each meeting is also available

00:01:13for viewing soon after the meeting is held at Rockville, MD. Gov. On demand. The first item on the agenda, uh, is our committee organization reports. We'll start with Peerless Rockville. Is anybody here from. Yes. Good evening Nancy.

00:01:38Hi. Good evening everyone. Um, Nancy Picard, executive director for Peerless Rockville. Thank you for having me here this evening. I just have a quick report. Um, I've mentioned our 250th, uh, Rockville American Story exhibit several times. We will be wrapping up that exhibit in

00:01:58the coming months. I want to let you all in. The public know that it will be open until the 20th of November. We've had a lot of people in and many, many events associated with. So it's been a lot of great feedback. In addition to that, we participated in two important anniversaries in the last

00:02:18month. One was the 100th anniversary event the city put on at Glenview Mansion to celebrate the remodeling of that property that happened in 1926, and the second was as part of the 300th anniversary of, um, Prince George's parish, which is the predecessor of the current Christ um Episcopal

00:02:40Church. Right around the corner here. Uh, we have additional programs coming up, and we hope to see any of you and anyone from the public, uh, with us. Anyone can go to our website at WW peerless Rockville to check out what we have. Thank you.

00:02:58Thank you. Nancy. Um, next is Lincoln Park Historical Foundation. Um, Anita O'Neil Powell is chair. Good evening. My name is Anita Neal Powell, and I'm the president of Lincoln Park Historical Foundation and the Leroy Neal African-American Research Center. The only one

00:03:21of his kind in Montgomery County. We observed the 250th anniversary celebration of America and Montgomery County. The theme was culture, heritage, legacy, and blast. On September 19th and September 27th. Both days were very successful and well attended by all races. On September 19th,

00:03:40we started off with a tour of Rockwell's African American heritage sites, followed by a film on Finding Fellowship, which focused on one black church and two white churches coming together after the assassination of Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King, Jr. We ended the day with a panel discussion on moving forward through relationships and

00:03:59social change. On September 26th, we had a cultural blend of music, voice, dance and movement tied into the American story. It interpreted the differences rooted in our history and spiritual expression through a vibrant, cultural, blessed experience. We had ten different acts, each with a focus to bring the American story together. This

00:04:20blast was moderated by Miss Karen Rollins, a former city of Rockville employee and professional jazz performer. Our next project is working on a general election and providing rides to the polls for those who want to vote and need transportation. Please share with anyone you think will benefit from this community service. Please reach

00:04:41out to me by email. Lincoln Park History at aol.com. If you would like more information about scheduling a ride during the election period, this concludes my report.

00:04:56Thank you. Anita. Um, now is the opportunity for any public comments regarding items that are not on tonight's agenda. This is an open forum. Would anyone like to speak on an item? Not on tonight's agenda. Nope. Nobody. Okay. And finally, we have, uh, HD, uh, HTC and staff comments. Do any

00:05:22commissioners have any comments? I do not. Mercy. Okay. Um. Well, then I will. Um, it's been my practice for the last several months of, um, featuring a small short talk on, um, a historic property within the city of Rockville. So I'm going to pick

00:05:46that up again tonight. Um, and we'll be talking about Saint Mary's Church, uh, located at 520 Viewers Mill Road, at the intersection with Rockville Pike. Saint Mary's Roman Catholic Church is the oldest existing church building in Rockville. The Rockville site was chosen because of the

00:06:05relatively large concentration of Roman Catholics living in the area. Originally it was part of a large parish that included Rock Creek, Rockville, Barnesville, Center, Seneca Creek, and Holland's River. Several upcoming Up county mission churches sprang from Saint Mary's in 1816, an 18

00:06:26member congregation was started by James Redmond, a member of the congregation sold several acres of land to the parish, and parishioners constructed the Georgian style building. The first brick church in Montgomery County. The church was built in 1817, and Redmond led the first mass on December 14th, 1817, attended by 80 worshippers. While it doesn't

00:06:50appear that many significant activities occurred at the church, a number of historical events took place nearby. Saint Mary's Church witnessed fighting from the civil War that occurred in Rockville, but the church took no part in the conflict. In June 1861, the field along Rockville Pike near the church became a camping ground for Union troops. The

00:07:13nearby fairgrounds reportedly housed tents, livestock, campfires, and New Englanders who had never traveled so far south. In the 1920s, more than a century after the church was built, a parish hall was added to meet the growing demand for social space. In 1831, the American author F Scott Fitzgerald attended his father's funeral at Saint

00:07:36Mary's Church. F Scott Fitzgerald, who lived from 1896 to 1940, and his wife Zelda Sayre, whose years in 1900 to 1948 are buried in the Saint Mary's Cemetery alongside his mother, father, grandparents and great grandparents, F Scott

00:07:55and Zelda were originally buried in Rockville Cemetery until, at the request of their daughter, Scottie Fitzgerald Smith. Their bodies were removed and reinterred in the family plot at Saint Mary's Churchyard on November 7th, 1975. In her request, Scotty recalled a passage from her father's letter I wouldn't mind, quote, I wouldn't mind a

00:08:17bit if in a few years Zelda and I could snuggle up together under a stone in some old graveyard here. That is really a happy thought and not melancholy at all. Close quote A quote from The Great Gatsby is carved into the stone slab in front of the headstone. Quote. So we beat, uh, we beat

00:08:36on boats against the current, borne back ceaseless, ceaselessly into the past. In 1950, population growth had started following the end of World War Two, resulted in vibrant activities throughout Rockville, including at its many religious institutions. That year, for the first time

00:08:56in 14 years. Saint Mary's had enough volunteers to hold a spring carnival while the old building was enlarged and remodeled. Over the years, most of the original chapel, which seats around 150, remains today. In the mid 1950s, Saint Mary's built a school and convent and added an auditorium

00:09:15to accommodate its growing numbers of worshipers. Years later, in 1965, Saint Mary's replaced its old rectory and social hall with the larger church that exists today. At that time, a demolition permit was issued for the original church building. The building was saved at the last moment by

00:09:35parishioners, concerned citizens, and Rockville Historic District Commission. The HDC was created in 1966 when Saint Mary's Chapel was almost lost. That ends my talk on that. So sort of interesting to know some of the history of Rockville connected with some of the buildings that we worked

00:09:56so hard to preserve. So just adding that little extra, um, do staff have any comments? We only have one comment for the body today. And that is to say that our newest Rockville employee, our preservation planner, Amira Lane, started in her role earlier this week. Um, she's not here with us tonight.

00:10:17We gave her, like, 24 hours heads up of like, hey, there's an HTC meeting. Um, so she's not here tonight. Um, but she will be joining us moving forward. Amira comes to us from the city of Alexandria, which, as you all know, has a very well run preservation program and a great legacy of historic preservation. Um, so she's been in the industry for about 15

00:10:36years. We are really excited to have her join our team. Um, in November, she will be here to introduce herself to you. Um, and then we will start the process of transitioning. Megan, behind the scenes a little bit more, and having Amira be a more regular presence before this body.

00:10:52Yeah. Thank you. Katie. Looking forward to meeting her. Um. Question. What's her full name? Amira Lane. LANE. Thank you. Okay. Um. Thank you. Katie. Um, next on the agenda is the consent agenda. Consent agenda

00:11:19items may be approved without discussion. However, any item may be removed for further discussion before the vote. First on the consent agenda is the approval of minutes for September 17th, 2026. Do we have a motion and a second?

00:11:37I move to approve the minutes. I second. Any further discussion on that? Nope. Not seeing anybody. Um, all those in favor, raise your hand and say I. Nobody's opposed. Motion passes. Okay. Next on the agenda is the

00:12:03certificate of approval for case 2026430. Dash CoA at 1080 copper stone court. Uh, the staff have a report on that.

00:12:18Yeah. Okay. So this is 1080 copper stone court for a certificate of approval. Uh, here we have the aerial image, and this is a part of the Dawson Farm Houses Historic District. And you can see the parcel outlined in blue on the aerial map here. It is a certificate of approval for new

00:12:40front steps and handrail as a new entry to the home. So on the left is the house as it currently looks. It is a registered Historic site. It's listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Um, it was originally built in 1852, and the addition that was added in 1874 is what makes up most of

00:13:03the structure that you see today. Um, as far as the significance of the property itself, it is the Dawson Farm. It's often known as Rocky Glen. Um, and it's significant both for its architecture and its association with the Dawsons, who were played an important role in local politics and commerce in Rockville for several generations. On the

00:13:24right, you will see the proposal on the applicant is proposing replacement of the existing front steps and platform with a new stairway and platform, and new handrails as well. Um, it will all be made of wood and in the same location, around the same footprint as the previous stairs. Um, and centered on the main entry door. The framing

00:13:44and decking is pressure treated lumber. The railings and blasters are wood. Um, and all of these materials are compatible with the historic character of the home. So the staff recommendation is that the proposal to build a new

00:14:03front entry, including steps, platform and handrail, meets the Secretary of the interior standards for rehabilitation, number two, number nine, and number ten. And staff recommends approval. And here are your motions.

00:14:17Okay. And do any commissioners have any questions for staff? I do not know. Okay. Is the applicant present? Yes. Okay. Um, would you do you wish to speak? Sure.

00:14:34Please state your name and address. Please. Jeffrey J k Kelly at 1080 Cobblestone Court. Um, so very excited to. We moved in end of August, and I want to state upfront we want to do whatever is within the guidelines of

00:14:55preserving the history of this incredible property. Um, so, um, we and we appreciate you considering our requests for handrails for safety reasons. Um, that's the main reason why we want handrails, but we're going to we want them to be

00:15:13done, uh, in harmony with the period 1874. Um, when the steps that were rotting, when they were taken away, it revealed the foundation stone saying 1874 on it. So we thought that was exciting. And I have pictures of anyone want to see

00:15:34them? Um, so I'm open to any questions. Uh, excited about this property? Uh, my nephew's niece was just christened at Saint Mary's Church. The original one. It was just there a couple of months ago. Um, I'm born in D.C.. My wife was born in D.C.. I taught history, U.S. history at Walt Whitman High

00:15:56School. Um, my wife is a building manager for a building that just got put on the National Register of Historic Places. The River Road Unitarian Church. It was built in the 60s, and it just got on that list in 2025. And she's a building manager, so she's gone through that process. But once

00:16:17again, I want to emphasize that we want to do whatever peerless and you all the commission um, we're open to all feedback and we want to do it right. Now.

00:16:29Thank you. Thank you very much. Uh, I really do appreciate, uh, I think all of us appreciate your commitment to maintaining the historic character of the house. Wish you the best of, um, joy and happiness. Uh, in your new home.

00:16:48Thank you. We consider it a privilege to be part of this property. And from what I've seen, the, um, the additional the work, um, will add to the, uh, appearance of the of the house. And the picture was an AI picture. Did you know that the one on the right.

00:17:06I was. It was AI. Yeah. The, um, our carpenter who doesn't speak English. That's why the project got started before all this. Um, but as soon as we. We stopped that while we're waiting for this decision. But about more than a month ago, we said, hold on. Um, but, yeah,

00:17:26he came up with that AI, and he had two plans. I guess they're all submitted as part of this. So, um. Yes, thank you very much. We appreciate your, um, you know, coming to us for this, uh, for this work. Um.

00:17:42Also, commissioners, just to remind you, you do have the architectural drawings in your staff report as far as the specific plans. Um. Yeah, I, I see nothing wrong with any. You know, it's just. Our carpenters from Cuba, and he did, uh, historic preservation in Cuba. So now we're using a translator on his

00:18:04phone that does a pretty good job. That's interesting. Well, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Um, are there any questions? Yes. I do have a comment. So I just want to add that safety is very critical. And then I was also going to ask about the second picture, which you've answered already because it looks very

00:18:23real. The AI one. Yeah, but you answered the question already. So say that again. I was just being curious about the second picture, but you already answered the question. Okay, okay. Yeah. Um, and it will. Yeah. That one. There it is. So yeah. So that's AI, um, and we're, we're going to do it

00:18:45whatever the period is. So I think I don't know if we want, but the tops, we won't do like that. Do like um, we did more research and it looks like the, the tops of the posts are supposed to be more flat, like it was in that time period.

00:19:04Okay. Okay. Any other. Just. Any other comments? Uh, are there any public comments from anyone attending in person or online who wishes to kind. Vice chair Goldfinger?

00:19:19We have two members of the public who have signed up in advance to speak. The first is Eileen McGuckin. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. We know about short people, right? Don't we? Yeah, yeah. Um, so

00:19:42I'm Eileen McGuckin and I live in Rockville, Maryland, but not in the city. And I want to share my experience with this. Um, in 1982, I received a call from the city manager. Uh, developer had just donated the grand 1913 Dawson House to Steppingstone Shelter. Wanted to give the rest of the land to

00:20:05the city while he developed the townhouses that you see around it. And the question the city manager had was, was the older, smaller Dawson farmhouse of any historic value. And what do we do with it now that we have it so peerless? Rockville hired a National Park Service architectural historian to do a

00:20:24professional opinion. He said while it was in really bad shape and had been vacant for a while, it was one of the finest Gothic Revival houses that still had really good bones, so it was salvageable. So even though Peerless Rockville had just lived through and experienced saving the battle

00:20:43station, um, rescuing Montrose School from the wrecking ball, we decided to accept the building with the intent of finding a good new owner. So ultimately we purchased it from the city for a dollar and we got a city loan promise of a city loan to help with the project. So we took a pretty

00:21:02picture of the of the property, and there was a big magnolia tree right nearby in Magnolia. We posed the picture, so the magnolia tree covered most of the the the size of the photo.

00:21:16So you didn't see what bad condition the the house was in. But we sent out the call and I received more than 100 calls. Um, a few of of which, um, wanted to go through the building and most of them did not make it through the front door. They were really frightened about the about the

00:21:36project. Um, one couple was interested in tackling this. Um, the wife is a CPA. The husband was a a contractor, and they had an adorable three month old baby. So we made an agreement with the city. Peerless Rockville owned the house for five days every morning, of which I went to

00:21:56make sure the house was still there and hadn't burned down. And we sold it to the Owens family for $20,000. We loaned them the city's $20,000, and we helped them obtain a private loan. Actually, they got a loan from a bank which pulled out the night before settlement. So we went around shopping and found a private loan. Uh, and we helped get them insurance

00:22:18from Lloyd's of London because, uh, Steve Owens was going to be doing all the work himself for almost all the work himself. So after that year, um, the Owens took out a mortgage. They moved down in and all loans were repaid. Um, we came back to this chamber, and with the cute baby again, um, and gave the

00:22:43the $20,000 back loan back to the city. They explained how they had all taken bets in 90% of the people around City Hall said we weren't going to be able to pull it off. So it was good. So what we ended up doing was ensuring the future of both Dawson farmhouses with the National Register nomination,

00:23:03which we wrote in the City Historic District designation and placed an easement on the 1874 farmhouse. So in a sentence, the Dawson farmhouse is the finest and most visible example of residential Gothic Revival architecture in the city of Rockville. If you look at the the city Historic

00:23:24Buildings catalog, there are three pages of Gothic Revival. They are almost all churches, um, houses that are lined up alongside others on Baltimore Road or West Montgomery Avenue.

00:23:38They're kind of hidden. This one is the most public, um, building that you can. You can see that is Gothic Revival, which I think is a really magnificent form of architecture. Um, so the Dawson farmhouse, the one that Lawrence Dawson built, is specifically noted on page 12.

00:23:57Um, with its steeply pitched cross gable roof. The Dawson farmhouse at one 188 copper Stone court, is representative of the style, so, um, my heart is with this house. Um, and, um, but my and my architectural, um, historic

00:24:18knowledge tells me that the size and scale of this proposal will totally change the primary and public view of this house. Um, and so I would like to make a suggestion to Mr. Kelly, who is very, very friendly, and it says it shows his interest in

00:24:39doing this correctly, that, um, if you if you look at the standards that you are judging this, um, this application with, I believe it would violate standard number nine of the Secretary of the Interior Standards for rehabilitation.

00:24:57Um, so, yes, of course, to a to a front entry and to make it look pretty. But I think it should be scaled down from its oversized, um, porch because that would change the entire main facade of the house and propose that that you consider

00:25:16voting that way. Be happy to answer any questions. Of course. So you're saying that you don't object to the front stairs or the handrails? You just want it to be smaller.

00:25:33Uh, yes. And not so prominent. Not so in your face. If you look at every one of the other photographs from the 18, I think the first one we have is 1878, something like that. To, um, not too long ago, there really wasn't a front porch.

00:25:48You see the family posing in the yard next to steps. Um, and of course, you need steps for the for the terrain there. Um, and understand safety, understand wanting to have a front porch. Um, but it should be much more modest in scale. I believe. Because when you look at the

00:26:07house on the left, I mean, it's pretty far back. It is, it is, but that is the public facade. That's really the only facade that you see of the house. And putting a an oversized church, church, oversized porch, um, really makes you go to the porch and not to all the, the lines of

00:26:28the house. Should I say I'm okay with that? Okay with scaling it down? Yeah. Safety. Okay. Yeah. Do the safety part. Yeah. Safety is important. Absolutely. Yes.

00:26:42How can we work that out? It was about the. Safety. But I can see exactly. What you mean. I will get. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay.

00:26:54Um. Do you have. A question? Yeah. I do have a question. Okay. Come back to the question. Okay. Question. All right. Okay, so when you talk about scaling down, like how many percent or what proportion do

00:27:14you want it smaller because I'm saying so because I don't structural engineers who determine whether it it's smaller. Will it be safe for people to climb on.

00:27:25Mhm. So I don't know like what proportion do you want. I, I'm not good with proportions or anything vaguely related to math. Um but if you look at all the townhouses nearby that many of them have 2 or 3 steps down to the, to the grass and the ground around them. Um, that's probably the proportion. You don't need

00:27:45anything large. You know, handrails. Absolutely. Yeah. But I I'm sorry, I can't answer specifically. Thank you. Um, yeah. Um, question for either one. Uh, it appears the photo on the left is existing.

00:28:05Um, it's hard to see, but is, I would guess that there is really no landing at the top. Is that. Is that the water? Can you please come up to the microphone? We can't hear you unless you're on the recording. And you remember, you guys would know, but I think it had a landing. And then a bigger

00:28:24the second step and then the third step is even bigger. Like a waterfall. Right? Yeah. Was not a landing. The first step was a step. But you're right. Did you say the first. Step? The top step. The top step is like a landing, right? Okay. But the top step is what you get end up on before you go in the correct house. Right. So I don't know what size means. Land means

00:28:47landing, but you get up if you. It's hard to see. But you go up three steps. And when you get to right before the door, it's the smallest one, you know, it's wide here, the first one, then the second is a little bit not as wide. And then the top one is even smaller right before you go in. Um, but I do

00:29:09have a picture that shows a very. Wide. It's hard to see, but there's a picture from the 1920s, I think, where it's spread out, the steps are spread out. But the one from 1890 is similar to what it was there. Um, so. But it can be scaled down. I guess whatever would do safety. That's not too

00:29:33big. Yeah, we'll do that. But my, um. But I'm just wondering. It looks as if the top step is just a step. It's not a deep platform. Like you're. The on the AI. The top one. Yeah, that one shows a deep.

00:29:48Okay. Yeah. The original was not like that. Top. The the original was just a step. Yeah. Yeah. It was not a big landing. So I. Yeah. And my sense was um, that, um, that was what Eileen was, was getting at to, uh, um, if you did, if you did the, um, cascading steps like the original, I'm not sure how

00:30:12you would put handrails unless they were, uh, attached to the house. And so somebody needing the handrail would have to go down sort of sideways, I guess. Yeah. Not sure how you could do the cascading steps, but I'm open to figure it out. However, we we can meet another time or. How it can be done. Sure.

00:30:35Where we. Would like to work with them. Yeah, it would want to make it work. Okay. I have no objection. Does anybody. Uh. Um. Yeah, we we have other people sign up to speak. I did just quickly want to clarify as far as size and scale, what was submitted. So it says the

00:30:54overall width will be eight feet and six inches, which is an eight foot platform with eight inch footings. Handrail will have 4x4 railing posts creating two horizontal rails, and then the spacing between the top and bottom balusters is 7.5in, which meets the child's non climb ability, material or criteria. So for safety we are working on pulling up historic

00:31:15photos to show the original, uh, footprint of the stairs. Okay. Thank you. Good evening everyone. Nancy Picard, on behalf of Peerless Rockville. Um, I feel like we're not all on the same page right now, so I wanted to try

00:31:35to speak to that a little bit. First of all, I wanted to say congratulations to Jake and his wife, Mandy. Um, this is a very special property, and I know they're very enthusiastic and very excited, and I think they're going to be great historic homeowners, um, going forward. And they seem very willing to work through the process. But I do have some

00:31:57real concerns about the process right now. So for clarity, I want to explain a couple of things. Number one, Peerless Rockville does hold a deeded easement to this property with the right to review all exterior renovations. And as the organization only formally received notice on Monday. Um,

00:32:20that's only three days ago. And the board has to look at it. I'm withholding any kind of detailed comment because obviously there hasn't been the time to do that. Um, in addition, I don't think it's been made clear at all today.

00:32:35Um, but it came to our attention that this work was already underway, and I went to the house on Monday. And you should know that this is kind of an after action review. This is not like they have already demolished the steps and framed out and nearly have it all built. There's concrete footer.

00:32:55The steps are nearly all framed, and I'd say it's 70% finished or something like that, which is just a different conversation that I think you all need to be aware of. Um, uh, this is concerning to me, particularly because I personally and other, um, had several conversations with the

00:33:15owners telling them about the process and having to come in for review and also having to come to peerless for review. So although I know they're very super excited, I just want to make sure that, um, the formal process and the reviews still happen and that you all still look at it, um, with the clear,

00:33:37I, I guess, um, so one of the things also that have happened is so they, the existing steps have already been removed. The large shrub next to the steps have been removed, slate pavers have been removed. Um, and, uh, some kind of new base has already been poured and the steps have already been framed.

00:33:59So I just that that work has already happened. Um, I'm just saying that. So you all are aware, like, not not to give comment, but just that's the that's where it is. Um, I do want to say that I know that there is, you know, the accessibility to the house can be a concern. You know, uh,

00:34:18home without a railing. You all just reviewed it last month. A very, um, great case at 203 Forest Avenue with this very same issue. And everyone was very supportive. A railing was at it. It was very minimal. It did not change the look or the design of the house. Um, it just was added to improve that

00:34:39accessibility. So one of the things in the submission, it talked about this as an in-kind replacement. That's the submission from the new owners. And I just I it's not I just want it to be clear. It's not an in-kind replacement. It is wood materials. But it's not like there was some rot. And

00:35:02they took out the boards and they replaced the boards as is and changed it. I mean, this is actually a full replacement and the size is I don't I won't say it's double the size, but is quite larger and it is different. So I think it's important. And we think it's important that you you look at

00:35:19it and look at the features. So um, I think the other thing that concern was that I don't believe I saw, um, existing pictures in the report or any information about what is there existing. So although you're looking at it and you're trying to say what's big or not big, if you don't know what was

00:35:38there and now it's missing, you really don't know what to compare it with. So I just wanted to bring that up. Um, so let's see, replacements are usually done as regular maintenance and you keep the underlying size, shape, form

00:35:57and style the same. So this was actually a full demolition and replacement with a larger footprint. Um, that went ahead prior to the review. So I think it would be nice if you all could speak to that, because it's very important that the procedures are followed. Um, uh, also, the staff findings in the report, uh, the staff findings are that for standard

00:36:20number two states that the front stairs are not distinctive and therefore the removal does not affect the historic character of the resource. However, there's no actual picture or photograph description or any kind of analysis in the entire report that speaks to the front steps and whether the new ones conform with the structure or

00:36:40architecturally appropriate, or the same or different. So how how is your decision really made on that standard? If none of that discussion is included? Um, also standard number nine, although the staff report says it meets standard number nine.

00:36:58Um, it notes standard number nine says that exterior alterations should not destroy historic materials. Um, and it also indicates that entry, um, that the entry steps maintain a similar footprint to the prior entry steps. But this is really

00:37:17not the case. And I don't think we have any measurements. Um, in the current report, to really say that. Said, again, I want to repeat this property and these owners, they're learning, they're enthusiastic, and I think we have a great way forward. And Mr. Kelly has said they're very willing to modify

00:37:38what needs to be done. So I just hope that when you all look at it, you think about just all of these factors. And I thank you for your time and attention. Thank you. Nancy. Uh, um, any comments from.

00:37:54Commissioners? There's a lot of information that we just heard. So that you consider. Can I make another comment? If we're going to speak, I need you to come to the microphone. Yeah.

00:38:08So it is about being new to it. Um, so learning the process and as I'm learning, we're adjusting, uh, for example, when Nancy came by the other day, I was saying, we'll change it and do it. We just want it safe. So that is that's what we

00:38:29all want. So I'm pretty sure we all want it to be safe. But we wanted to represent the character and harmonize with the history. But in fairness to me, I did, um, just it's really just for the record to know that I was asking about it. So I do have a text that I sent to Nancy on September 4th about

00:38:55this. Okay. I didn't follow up and asked the question, but in the text we have a question about when we fix replace the front steps, adding railings on both sides for safety. Question mark. So I did text her about it in on September 4th. That's way back. But you weren't. She wasn't there when I was

00:39:17meeting. I brought a package for her from the mail, so I didn't get a chance to ask her. She was actually in a meeting, but I would have asked about that September 4th. But then I did not follow up. Or didn't. She didn't ask me about it after that. But I did do that. So I want that. For the record, September 4th, I was saying, what do we do? So that was a

00:39:38reaching out. Um, in terms of the footprint, the width is the same as the bottom step. See how it waterfalls. So you got the top smaller than bigger. And then the bottom is what this one is. But this one does the whole size. So it doesn't waterfall. Does that make sense? The width is like the

00:39:57the width of the bottom step. Very similar. I don't know of exact, but very similar. It's just now all the same width. So that there's a more of a platform up top, but once again, whatever we need to do to make it safe and look good and not be, I agree with what Irene. Irene, right. I mean,

00:40:22what she said about it kind of jumps out even though it's set back. That's true. I want it to be seen as the Gothic Revival and and that's the steps not take over. So it really is a matter of coordinating, uh, like this meeting now with getting it together. And if I had known more, I would have

00:40:43gotten this done earlier. But I did reach out to the the commission after I sent this on September 4th. Pretty soon after that to get the process going.

00:40:55Um, thank you. Thank you. Uh. Excuse me, I have a question. Go ahead. Keep sending them back. Okay. So no. Problem.

00:41:08That's that's okay. So are you saying the bottom step with is the same as the original. Or very close. So I can get those measurements. But that's what it was based on. The bottom step being wide. And then second and third like that okay. So this now in the AI picture maybe bring it back up.

00:41:29It's this instead of getting smaller okay. So the width of that bottom one is similar or the same. To the original. Yes. The the bottom set was pretty wide down there. Mm.

00:41:41Okay. Thank you. And oh and we didn't authorize the carpenter to do this. We were gone all day. And he did this while we were gone. And then as soon as we got home and saw it, that's it stopped. And that was probably the middle of September. Okay.

00:41:59Thank you. So I'd already begun the process with you with the historic commission. Okay. Uh, commissioners, if I could jump in for just a moment, maybe helpful for your deliberation. Um, there are three options, just procedurally for you to

00:42:20proceed. Um, and again, there are nuances to all of this, and we can get into that. But the first, of course, would be to to approve the application as submitted. Um, staff has obviously provided you with a staff report and a resolution to that effect. So that's that's always on the table. Um, you also have the option to postpone or this would be a

00:42:39continuance. So to continue this case, um, that's in your rules of procedure, I would just note that in this case, it's probably not the best course of action to continue because you're required 45 day review period expires in 15 days. And we don't have a written waiver from the

00:42:58applicant at this point in time that would allow for that extension. Um, you're so in other words, that's typically more appropriate when the applicant has already signed the waiver. And then we come to you. And of course, the third option would be to deny the application, uh, with the understanding that the applicant could come back, resubmit a new certificate of approval with a with a

00:43:18redesign. Uh, my understanding is that there isn't a cost associated with submitting a certificate of approval application. Um, so, um, I wanted to put those on the table for you, in part because the, the redesign process itself is something that would be complicated enough that we really couldn't accomplish that on the fly unless there was

00:43:36just a very small element of the design that you wanted to to change. Um, so happy to answer any questions if you have them. Thank you for that. Um, that answers some of the questions I had. So appreciate that. Anita.

00:43:52Um, so if we denied the application, does the 45 days go away and it starts over as a new application? That's correct. Okay.

00:44:05Thank you. And I guess the reason I bring that up is because I think there was some concerns. And, you know, and the applicant is willing to work to make it right or to do what is necessary. Um, so I just wanted to, you know, give time if that's the way we vote. We

00:44:28don't know yet that, you know, he would have the opportunity to work with Peerless Rockfield to do whatever it is that they have talked about. Um, or suggested and then moved from there without really you're denying it, but you're not really denying it. You're just giving them more time to work

00:44:50through the process or work through the suggestions. Um. Can I. I think, well, nope. Nope. Not yet. Sorry. Okay. That's it.

00:45:05Okay. So I just wanted to follow up on that too. Just so you all know, if you do deny, even though to your point, Commissioner, it would effectively be a denial with the understanding there would be a resubmission. Uh, the motion to deny would still need to provide the grounds for the denial. Um, and so, you know, one thing that we've heard, for example, is that it, it some

00:45:25folks think it does not conform with Secretary of Interior standards. The number nine. Um, but I just want to make sure that your motion to deny would include whatever grounds the commission thought was appropriate as to why this particular design, as presented to you tonight, does not meet the standards required. Okay. Thank you.

00:45:46Mr. Chair. So I have a question for staff. So if this request is denied okay, we'll still be willing to like provide the correct dimensions for the steps so the architect can do some kind of edits that possible.

00:46:03Of the proposed. Steps. Um, so staff wouldn't provide that, that would be the applicant that would be providing it based on, you know, what them and their architectural team come up with. Based on the existing. Because, okay, I heard that the building.

00:46:18But to add that additional info about existing. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Can I ask a question? Oh I'm sorry. Yeah. Please. So, um, if approved, I would still do it how they want it done. I would still I would

00:46:45come over. I can come over and we'll talk about how to do it because I don't have a it has to be like this. It's more what is safe and what will, um, uh, look bad or what will it be appropriate? So even if you did approve it, I wouldn't want to do it exactly like that. As big as that, you know, getting this

00:47:08feedback and kind of already sensing that. Anyway, um, so I would then work with them both ways, actually. Sure. Commissioners, I'm going to just make a point of order. Note here of we are approving the application as submitted. And so while I appreciate the

00:47:27applicant's enthusiasm and willingness to be flexible, it would not be appropriate to approve what is before us today, because then if he went on to build something that was not in alignment with what was approved, that would be a violation in and of itself. And so I appreciate the willingness to learn and adjust. Um, but from a procedural perspective,

00:47:47I would advise against that option.. That is going to be my comment. So that's what I'm wrestling. Just thank you for saying that. That's exactly because once the application is approved and it's closed and then you yeah, we can't do that. So if we made it smaller, that would actually, um, what would that do. It would do something

00:48:08legally if, if this was approved this this size with the, with the architectural drawings, not the AI thing, but what's actually written numbers. And then I did it smaller. What would that do. That would be a violation because you got approval to do one thing and you would be

00:48:26constructing something different. And again, those arc drawings are in your all staff report. As far as specifics, measurements. Do measurements. Is impossible. Oh, Nancy. Yes?

00:48:40Can I ask a question? Is that. Certainly, certainly. I, I just in terms of order, I know there would be a concern because obviously they're without a front step now, and that's clearly not a good situation to be in. Um, and I don't think anyone's trying to really hold them up. But at the

00:49:01same time, not kind of everything happened. And I think that, you know, clearly there needed to be some better communication, probably, you know, all around. So it's my understanding that if they wanted to bring something back, the deadline is tomorrow. Correct. Which clearly a new

00:49:21plan. Is there a waiver or something possible for that? I'm just so I think we're thinking about two different deadlines. The land use article has a 45 day window for the body to act from. When the application was submitted, the application was accepted on September the 15th. So that period goes until October 30th. Nancy, I believe what you're referring to is the deadline to get onto the November Historic

00:49:42District. Because I wouldn't want them to be pushed into December. Is my concern correct? Understood. Um, we have a little bit of flexibility. We can maybe talk online. We're talking, like days over. We're not talking weeks over because we have to get our agenda packet and our notices and things like that out. You know, several weeks in advance, um, depending on how this body

00:50:03chooses. Haven't had their discussion You move forward. Um, if the applicant were interested in submitting a new application, we can talk offline about what the timeline for that will look like. To the extent that we can be flexible, we like to. Okay. But three weeks from now is not going to work for us because we would have to notice by that

00:50:22period. So you're saying they could not be on the November agenda, and. If they applied three weeks from now, correct? Oh no. No, you're just saying it doesn't have to be tomorrow necessarily. Yes. We already have so much of the information can be written. Yes, we can be flexible about that. Thank you. Thank you. Because I think that was important. Yes, yes. Next question.

00:50:41Yes, Anita. Okay. This question is to the staff or the attorney. What if the application was approved with conditions and include those conditions into what is being discussed now.? So that is a totally acceptable

00:51:03approach. Um, but the one thing that we tend to look at is, you know, can the changes that you'd like to see in the conditions be adequately described by the language of the conditions? So the example. Um, the example I would give you is if you're only concerned with the steps, was the, um,

00:51:22the sort of the decorative tops of the posts. And you wanted to see those flat rather than pointed. That would be totally, very easy to accomplish by condition. Um, the problem that I'm seeing is that, uh, at least what we're hearing from, from some of the members of the public is that the the desire

00:51:41is to make, essentially redesign the steps in their entirety. And I, you know, again, you all are the ones who are going to be deciding what you'd like to see and what changes you think would would be consistent with the standards that you're reviewing. Um, but I think generally a complete redesign of a feature is something that's hard to capture in conditions of approval. So the

00:52:02short answer is, yes, you can do that. The question, though, is do you know enough to to to know what the condition should look like. So it could be, you know, conditionally approved, you know, conditioned on the stairs being X, you know, inches wide rather than Y or X inches high rather than

00:52:20something like that. And I just worry that, you know, we're kind of trying to design the steps on the fly effectively by the conditions of approval. Um, again, it's up to you, but I think it would be a little bit challenging.

00:52:34Okay. Thank you. Um, um. Yes. Sir. Is it possible? Well, and I would want to know, the design wise, um, to say something like 30% smaller, 50% smaller.

00:52:49That's pretty clear, right? If that design. But do you want it waterfall. You know, or something to talk about. Right. But it's the size is the biggest part, right. And I agree I agree. Um, then so that's the next question then if it is just making it 50% smaller, that's pretty clear.

00:53:13But if it's you want the waterfall effect and I'm not sure how we do the railings. Right. That doesn't that put the railings in a, in a strange place I guess, trying to think it through, but um, but but percentage wise that would be clear, right? 50% smaller. Yeah. And again, just for the

00:53:34benefit of the commission, you know, I would argue that if, unless we're talking about one particular feature, obviously we don't want steps that are 50% lower, right. Um, it's, it's it's why you'd submit new plans essentially for the commission to review. Okay. So, um, any. other here.

00:53:53I'm thinking. Yeah. So I'm wondering if, um, can we get a, um, a motion? Uh, worded such that, um. Uh.

00:54:09We do not. We don't approve the current plan, but we're sending it back to the property owner to work with. Um, in this case, Peerless Rockville, which has a, um, has an interest in it to come up with something that would be acceptable. Um, and

00:54:34then resubmit, you know, or come back to us next month or something of that sort. Um, you know, leaving the door open, I guess, uh, to not totally deny, but to deny with conditions or something of that sort. Is that, um, can we get a wording

00:54:55to that effect? And I don't think we can word it exactly that way. I think maybe a way of looking at it is, you know, you're obviously not designing, denying front steps on the structure. Right? What you what you would be doing is denying this particular design of these front steps at this point. Of course, you can provide

00:55:15direction to the applicant that you would be more than happy to see a revised design that accomplishes whatever it is you'd like to see. Um, but we need a denial. We basically we need a final action, either approval or denial. Within the 45 day period, or else the plans that the applicant has submitted are deemed approved. So you either have to deny or

00:55:36you have to approve. And if you approve, you can do it with conditions. But, um. You said you can't. We can do it. You can like wait, like we had talked about before. You could put conditions on there if there was just a few features that you'd like to see modified. Um.

00:55:50I have a question. Yeah. Okay. Can the conditions. Um, can the conditions be vague enough to say, um, in consultation with, um, peerless Rockville, for example? Um, which has a vested interest? Or with or appeals. Rockville.

00:56:15And, uh, and Rockville city staff. So I don' I wouldn't recommend that because in effect, you would be delegating your review authority to, to other parties. Um, the other thing I want to be careful about, so you, of course, can always encourage applicants to consult with Peerless Rockville. I'm sure the commission always does

00:56:33that. I do want to point out that the easement that Peerless Rockville has on the property, to the best of my knowledge, is not is not an easement that's also held by the city. So although it's certainly relevant information for the Commission to be aware of, it's something that you you don't want to enforce yourselves. Um, but so again, don't want to make things difficult for you, but I wouldn't recommend that

00:56:54you say, you know, approved condition on you designing this with Peerless Rockville, for example. Okay. Thank you Anita. Okay. I have I have another question. Um, my question is to pierce Rockland. Can you come up? Let me ask the question.

00:57:10Thank you. So what exactly is it that you're looking for with this applicant? So if we were to and we don't know, we're all over the place right now.

00:57:23Okay. So I was trying to say. I thank you for asking for bringing me up. Thank you. So one of the things I think so one of the things that happened here is that it came up that there would be a desire to add railings to the to the steps. And of course, we just literally about the same time that that was being said, we

00:57:42were reviewing the railing, added to the steps at 2 or 3 forest, which was kept the steps intact, kept everything intact and added railings. Um, and that is a perfectly, you know, thing. We would have 100% been behind. Um, so not getting a report or not getting anything, it just I just got

00:58:08the official notice to my board. So they've only had three days, so I don't, I don't think I can go on record like on their behalf of saying this is exactly what we would want. But I do feel comfortable saying, um, I don't think there's an objection to adding railings. There's not an

00:58:29objection to the steps being built a little differently. Um, I think the concern is that they're in keeping with the, um, Gothic Revival style. They're very boxy right now.

00:58:44The, posts are modern, four by fours. They're not designed in any way or crafted. Um, also, although the bottom step is very, um, you know, if it's eight feet wide, it's probably somewhat bigger than it used to be as a mass, the structure

00:59:07becomes bigger because you also have a very a I don't know how deep the first landing is, but it was just a regular sized small step. Um, so the landing makes the, uh, steps themselves, not necessarily be tons wider, but quite a bit

00:59:30deep, deeper, and overall large. Um, I wouldn't think that they'd have to be reduced by as much as 50% sometime. You know. Um, more moderate changes would probably make it not grab as much attention. Um, so overall, there's not an

00:59:50objection to there being railings. I think that they they've worked hard to try to match the front. And I don't think that's even what's discussed. But to match the design of the front step to a porch that's on the side of the house. And, um, if you look at that porch, I believe that the,

01:00:11the, uh, the posts and everything are like a little bit scaled down than what we see in the design before you. So, um, overall, there's not a huge objection to, um, the design as just being completely wrong, but I just seems like it

01:00:31needs to be a little bit tweaked to, to be better for this particular property. And I know that's not an exact answer that you want. But I hope that that was helpful. It was helpful. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Uh, when I first read the, um, uh, the application, saw the pictures. Um, what did strike me was the, um, predominance of the railing. Uh, much more than

01:00:58the steps themselves. Um, and not even thinking about all the issues that were brought up this evening. Um, and so I'm wondering, um, uh, and I'd have to look at the, at the building code. Um, could we do a railing that's not as obtrusive? Um, you know, you talked about the one on Forrest, which was a

01:01:23wrought iron railing. Could would that be something that's acceptable for safety, but not as as bulky looking and would sort of disappear? And also, can we go with a railing on only one side as opposed to both sides, which again, would

01:01:41reduce the, uh, the massive looking appearance of the steps? Um, so that that would be maybe something that that would satisfy both, uh, both sides of the argument. Um, and I'm just sort of throwing that out. Uh, that was my

01:02:00impression. As I said when I first looked at it is, um, you know. Whoa. That's, uh, you know, um, pretty massive. Uh, and it was the railing that did it much more so than the steps. And maybe even the steps can be scaled back so they don't jump out at you as much. Does that. Is that something that that

01:02:20might be workable? Um, again, just just some thoughts. Um, so, um, so our options are to I guess I'm trying to remember. So we we. You say we can't approve with

01:02:41conditions, so we would have to disapprove. Can we add a condition for a re submittal by next month. So let me I'll go through your your options one more time. Um, now that you had some time to deliberate. Um, you can approve

01:03:03you and you can approve as staff has recommended. You can approve with additional conditions of approval. If you think that the conditions would, would allow are necessary to make the design adhere to the standards that you're looking at, or you can deny, you can't deny with

01:03:27conditions, but you certainly could deny. And then tell the applicant. But we'd encourage you to resubmit. It just wouldn't be part of your denial. And the denial would have to be based on a particular failing of this design to conform to the specifications and standards that you're reviewing. Any thoughts from, uh, my

01:03:54fellow commission? Uh, yes, sir. So. I, um, once again want to make it appropriate and definitely smaller. So I like that you can approve with conditions. That's good. Irene, save the property.

01:04:12So I want her to be happy with it. So I wouldn't even have a problem if you guys design something, we would just build it. Not sure how we do that, but I guess I'm making it clear that we want to do it right. And just that it's also safe.

01:04:27And I know they want it safe also. So we're on the same page with the safety part. Um, even the size part. Um, but I don't know how that condition approved with condition that I would build it with their architect or whatever. I don't know if that works, but, um, but I want them to be happy

01:04:49with it. Um, and, Irene, like I her name was famous to me because I found I read about her saving it, and I was hoping she's still around. I thought she is. Um, because it means so much. And knowing history and growing up in this area. I heard about the Dawson farm growing up. I knew about it. I

01:05:10know they donated land for Richard Montgomery High School, all that. So, um, I don't know if that's a way you can do it, that I would just build whatever they came up with. I don't know if that's. A condition.

01:05:22Yeah. Yeah. And just want to make clear again to the body, I would, I would recommend against that. Practically. You can do that. The way to do that would be to deny this application. The applicant would go redesign the steps in consultation with peerless, and then resubmit the redesigned plans to you for a new certificate of approval. Practically speaking, it really

01:05:42doesn't have. There's no difference between that and and approving it with those conditions. It's just it's legally defensible. If you think that sounds like the cleanest option. If you think that the design does not conform to all of the standards, right.

01:05:56Um. Any thoughts? Um, no. So again, and I know you said it already. Um, the 45 days goes away and then we start all over again. If it's denied. You're.

01:06:10You're so you. Won't have it. Once you once you deny the 45 day period is over when the applicant submits the application, a new 45 day period will then begin. Okay. Thank you. Um. Oh, okay. So if it's denied, it's gotta be denied with a reason why it's being denied. Does that make sense?

01:06:35Yes, that is correct. So you can see there's two potential motions up on the screen. If you were interested in entertaining a motion to deny. You can see the blanks there that this body would need to fill in. It doesn't have to be exactly that, but generally you have to cite the rationale per your point earlier for the denial.

01:06:59All right. So, um, does, uh, um. Does anybody want to make a, uh, make a motion?

01:07:20I move the commission to the approval application 2027 430 Darko at 1080. Uh, 2026, I believe. It, 2027. Is it 20?

01:07:38Is the case number? Yes. Okay. Because right here it. Says okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I moved the commission, denied the certificate of approval application 2027 Dash for 30 CoA at 1080 Cobblestone Court. And authorize the vice chair to assign to sign and associated resolution. Due to the. Due to.

01:08:07What could. Be okay due to the size of the steps problem. They walked us down with the Secretary of the interior standards guy for rehabilitation. Number nine for technical Guide. There are no relevant technical guides for this specific type of work. So, um, you would

01:08:31reference the standard and then that could be the end of the motion. Number nine. Okay. All right. Um, do you want to repeat that or. Okay. Yeah. I moved the commission, deny the city of Approval application 2027 for Alcoa at

01:08:521080 Cobblestone Court, and authorize the vice chair to set the associated resolution. The size of the steps. The works does not meet. The Secretary of Interior. Standards for rehabilitation. Number nine. With second.

01:09:07Second. All those in favor? No further discussion. Oh, I'm sorry. My my bad. Is there any discussion from the commissioners?

01:09:17I have a question. So we'll let's say so you have to, um, submit an application. Is it three weeks prior to.

01:09:30The application deadline is five weeks prior to whenever the next meeting. The way the calendar falls for November, the deadline officially is tomorrow. So that's what Miss Picard was referencing earlier of. It's not reasonable to expect in the next 24 hours the applicant to have redesigned their project, and so staff can chat with the applicant offline

01:09:54and establish a deadline by which we may be able to get it on the November agenda. Um, it would have to be a relatively quick turnaround time, but we can speak with the applicant offline to establish what that might look like.

01:10:07Great. That sounds good. It sounds. Good. It sounds good. Okay. All right, so now we can vote. I'm sorry. This was. This is blew my whole mind about. Um. So we have the motion. Can we have a vote? All those in favor, raise your hand. Say aye.

01:10:28Aye aye. And he posed. No. The motion passes. Oh. Okay. Uh, I want to thank the property owner. And Rockville Eileen, for all your comments. Um, it was an eye opener for

01:10:48sure. Um, and I appreciate that. Uh, um, you know, still learning. So thank you very much. I hope this is, um, agreeable to, um, we can work out. You can work out something. We will look forward to. Um, yes. See you again next

01:11:09month. I'm glad you denied it, because it's too big. After hearing from them. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate. It all that. Well, because if we did it smaller than it would be against the road. So it had to be to. That, right?

01:11:22Right, right. I appreciate your understanding. And, your cooperation. It's well noted. Okay. Um. Thank you all for your future partnership.

01:11:34Yes. Moving along. Oh, uh, next on the agenda are discussion items, starting with old business. We have one item on old business, which is the historic preservation event, due to occur on November the 14th. Um, would you like to. Okay.

01:11:58So on. You want to. Give it? No. Go ahead. Please. So on November 14th, the Rockville Historic District Commission will be hosting an historic preservation event at the red Brick courthouse, 29 Courthouse Square in Rockville, Maryland, from 10 a.m. to 12 noon. The event is free and

01:12:19open to the public. There will be a panel discussion on preserving and protecting historic properties. Following the presentation, the public will have an opportunity to ask questions. Some of the topics on the panel will include rock fields oldest and most notable historic buildings, regulations for designated historic properties, how the historic

01:12:40properties and designation work tax credits, grants and benefits for historic property owners will also focus on purchasing historic properties in Rockville. Um, we do have a flyer that will be posted hopefully on our website. Um, this event should also appear in the November Rockville

01:13:00report. We want to encourage you to share the fly with persons and our homeowners that may be interested in learning, connecting, and exploring Rockville paths as a point of information, all commissioners will be participating in this historic event, and I also want to add a note is that this will be a very good, um, event for the. For you to attend, you

01:13:26know, because we will be focusing on your very, um, what's going on. And, you know, um, especially as a new, um, homeowner and historic property. So this would be really good for you. So when you come before us again, you'll be good. Alright. Okay.

01:13:43You're welcome. You want to add anything? Um, nothing. I can think of. Mercy. No. Okay. Um. But, uh, yeah, I will be giving a very short talk on some of the more prominent historic buildings in the city. Um, just to kind of

01:14:05highlight how they're all around us and and, um. Um. Together, give. Uh. Give us a story of the city's at least recent history because we've lost a lot of the older buildings, but. Okay, moving along, um, new business. Uh, we

01:14:27have no items on the agenda under new business. Do any commissioners have any items they'd like to bring up as new business? I do not know. Okay. Um, that concludes our agenda for tonight's meeting.

01:14:43Uh, we are now set to adjourn. Can I have a motion and a second? No, no, no. On the meeting. Second.

01:14:55Uh, all in favor? I. Okay. Good evening. Rockville. Today