2026-10-13 - Council Committee of the Whole

00:00uh their help in getting things

00:03accomplished, whether it's uh working on

00:06the trash dumping problems uh to um

00:12getting uh street lights uh fixed and

00:16and other other issues. Uh we're working

00:20on uh on signage um for blocking alleys,

00:26things of that nature. We we just let's

00:28just thank the staff for their

00:30cooperation because uh without their

00:33help uh none of that could get done and

00:36but we we hope for well there's some

00:40other things we're working on and we'll

00:43we'll give a report on on those in the

00:45the near future. Um thank you Mr.

00:49President.

00:51>> Councilman at large Bogard.

00:54[clears throat]

00:54>> Thank you council president. I too

00:56attended the village of Westover meeting

00:58was a very very good meeting for the

01:00portion I was able to stay. Um I met

01:03with an individual uh who's considering

01:06opening a business downtown, met with

01:09them. We walked downtown, popped in a

01:11few stores, popped in a few areas, uh

01:14discussed growth opportunities so we can

01:17uh and gave them, you know, connected

01:19them with information so we can continue

01:21to invest in our downtown. Work with a

01:24constituent who has a property downtown

01:27that's kind of boarded up and due to a

01:29um um passing of their loved one,

01:33they're trying to figure out what to do

01:35with the property. So, I want to thank

01:37uh code enforcement and the others who

01:38were involved in those conversations to

01:41help um move the needle so we can deal

01:43with uh um the properties that appear to

01:47be blight, but actually they're going

01:49through pro probate now. So, working

01:51with them so we can um continue the

01:53beautifification of our downtown area.

01:55Uh,

01:57of course, I chair the board of appeals

01:59uh for construction property maintenance

02:01and um so we've had, as you heard, we

02:03have a couple of those hearings. other

02:05issues we've had, but I in lie of time

02:07I'll I'll um I'll yield. Thank you.

02:11>> Thank you. Councilman Lewis, are you on

02:13muted now?

02:15>> I am. I couldn't get through uh for some

02:18reason. Can you guys hear me?

02:20>> Yes.

02:22>> Okay.

02:23Okay. Um this is for um district

02:26reports, correct?

02:28>> Correct.

02:29>> Um second district I attended.

02:32>> Yeah. Second district. I I attended the

02:34uh the DSU event uh on Saturday. I was a

02:38participant in the parade. Um before

02:41that, I attended uh the grand opening of

02:45the new uh Daily State News, which is

02:47now located at the Duncan Center, and I

02:51attended uh various other small events

02:54within the community within the past

02:56month. address some constituent

02:59complaints on Elm Terrace,

03:05Orchard Drive, and um the other place

03:10was uh over in

03:12uh where was it? Uh oh, yeah, it was

03:16over in uh the Stony Creek development.

03:19Uh so I addressed those constituent

03:21issues with staff and tried to have them

03:24rectified

03:26and uh that's pretty much it in a

03:28nutshell. Thank you.

03:32>> Thank you. Uh

03:35my report

03:37I attended the uh October the 8th code

03:40board of appeals hearing with chairman

03:43Sudler. Uh thanks to the chair of DHR,

03:47Dr. Mishu Settler uncovered the second

03:50third district representative that has

03:53been missing with the death of the

03:54original member of that group and her

03:57name is Chiara Fox Moolock. Uh third, we

04:02had three East Lake constituent

04:05complaints. One involving a storm drain,

04:08one dealing with a truck and a shopping

04:10cart, and then grass being blown down

04:12into drains. All three handled by code

04:15chief cop. A constituent called and

04:18requested that Acorn Lane be uh closed

04:21off to non-local traffic as East

04:24Lockerman Street was uh blocked off. The

04:27matter was referred to system uh manager

04:30Lion who reported that Acord Lane is a

04:33Delt Roadway and not under city control.

04:36A constituent complained once again

04:38about a new house being built at William

04:41and Water Street. The complaint this

04:43time was about debris and code inspector

04:45cop has already taken actions against

04:48the property owner. And after being

04:51referred to by Yvon Martin, I was

04:54discussed with the man living on White

04:55Oak Road and 83rd uh a 83 April Drive

05:01about a problem with a neighbor. And

05:04that's my report. And now I is uh

05:08Councilwoman Hall now available.

05:11She's not here available because of

05:14that. Uh we will switch to uh the

05:19legislative and finance committee. Uh

05:22and that motion uh goes to Councilman

05:26Anderson.

05:27The floor is yours, sir.

05:29>> Thank you, Mr. President. The

05:32Legislative Finance and Administrator

05:35Committee is now called to order. Uh

05:39first we'll have the adoption of the

05:41agenda. Councilman Boger, do you

05:43recognize?

05:44>> Move for adoption of the agenda.

05:46>> Rosha second. It's been moved and

05:48seconded.

05:49>> Just for discussion.

05:50>> Yes. Discussion.

05:51>> So are we having the parks and wreck

05:53agenda items after?

05:55>> Yes.

05:56>> Okay. Sit tight.

05:57>> Well, she's Yes.

06:00[clears throat]

06:01>> Thank you. Definitely. uh the uh you can

06:06you can be our uh our almost exicial

06:09adoptee

06:11but yes um and it's um so discussion

06:16further discussion

06:18>> all in favor yes

06:19>> I

06:20>> I any oppose

06:24the agenda's adopted council you had a

06:28>> what I'm I'm was my colleague was I was

06:30looking at the parks and wreck

06:33or is that you're doing

06:36>> leg and fin but I was looking at parks

06:38and wreck. So,

06:39>> um I'll save it for parks and wreck.

06:41Thank you.

06:41>> No problem. Uh and let let's uh do a

06:45quick verification. Uh uh Mr. Shiovach,

06:48are you there?

06:50>> Yes, sir.

06:51>> Good. Can hear you. Uh Mr. Garfinkle,

06:54are you there?

06:55>> I am here.

06:57>> And we can hear you. Thank you.

07:01That brings us to the first item

07:05which is proposed ordinance 2026-15

07:10uh amending chapter 42 environment by

07:14adding uh section 42-3 lighting. Mr.

07:18Eddie Cop chief code enforcement officer

07:23you are recognized.

07:26Good evening.

07:30Uh before you tonight is an ordinance uh

07:33in reference to lighting um particularly

07:36residential zones. Um there's an influx

07:39in complaints regarding uh light

07:42pollution. It's being used as a tactic

07:45to harass your neighbor per se to where

07:49large spotlights are being installed on

07:51the side of the house shining into

07:53windows causing a nuisance. This

07:55ordinance would help alleviate that and

07:58uh prevent that from happening. There is

08:01current um language in the zoning

08:04ordinance, but it only covers commercial

08:06properties. So, this would give us um

08:10some teeth to be able to stop light

08:12pollution.

08:14Um the fee structure is identical to um

08:20all other code enforcement fines. So it

08:23falls in line uh with code enforcement

08:25fines. So nothing changes there. I'll

08:27take any questions if you happen.

08:29>> Thank you, Councilman Bogardy.

08:31>> Oh, she left.

08:33I was wondering, did my neighbor uh did

08:36my neighbor report light pollution going

08:38into her house and that is the

08:42hilarity. Yeah, my light shines through

08:44her house when I have it on. So my bad.

08:47I didn't know if it was her or not.

08:49But as long as you vote for her salary,

08:51she'll probably be okay with it.

08:54>> He is not to be bought.

08:55>> Uh the council.

08:57>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No, actually um

09:00[clears throat] I fielded a call. Not in

09:02your neighborhood, though. Yeah, I know.

09:04I know. um you know that the that the uh

09:09one one of the neighbors in our district

09:13is shining a light and we understand how

09:16you want your backyard,

09:19you know, to to be able lit, but it

09:22shouldn't impede on somebody else's

09:24property. I don't think so. That's

09:26that's one of the reasons for

09:28um this and I and it does have lumens

09:31involved in the in the ordinance in

09:34order to [clears throat] control light

09:35going in somebody's bedroom window.

09:38>> So that's basically uh

09:40>> yeah and this is a common complaint. Um

09:43this this complaint comes in a lot.

09:45Unfortunately there's no language in the

09:47code to make it a violation of the code.

09:49Um although we identified a problem,

09:51there's no nothing enforceable language

09:54currently in our ordinances that would

09:56allow us to address it.

10:02>> Thank you, Councilwoman Arm.

10:05>> Thank you. So, you mentioned lumen

10:07specifically, and that that was my my

10:09question because it just it seems um you

10:12know, unusually bright lighting, but I

10:14was going to ask if there was a criteria

10:16to define what that would be. And I

10:18don't I don't see lumens in there, but

10:20that would be the criteria, I would

10:22think, or wattage or or something along

10:23those those lines.

10:30>> Yeah. So, I know the the commercial has

10:33lumens in there with residential. This

10:36could be amended if you want to put uh a

10:40certain lumen to it. I know in

10:42researching this it it basically when it

10:45came down to residential it was just

10:47light um any kind of nuisance lighting

10:50going through the window.

10:53>> Oh, I thought I thought we had

10:54recommendation for for the lumen

10:56wattage.

10:57>> It's not in here.

10:59>> My my bad.

10:59>> But we can add that in here.

11:03if you could take a look at maybe other

11:04municipalities that have already um

11:06incorporated a residential light um

11:09ordinance component and see how that

11:13compares. I just feel like unusually

11:15bright is just it's up to

11:17interpretation. Um what I think is is

11:20not an issue with my room darkening

11:22shades might be an issue for someone

11:23else. So I I would like some sort of

11:25criteria in there.

11:28>> I yield.

11:29>> Thank you. I'll come right back to you,

11:31Councilman Lewis.

11:34>> Uh, yes, Mr. Mr. Cop, is there anything

11:37on the state books or state code

11:41pertaining to this? uh because I've

11:43heard of these kind of complaints coming

11:45in, but I was always under the

11:47impression that um there's something

11:50called airspace that would preclude a

11:54ordinance or a law being put into effect

11:57with uh specifically lighting because

12:00lighting could shine into anybody's

12:02window from anywhere. I mean, vehicles

12:05driving down the street sometime when

12:08they turn their headlights shine into my

12:10windows. Uh, is there something that I'd

12:13be able to do about that? Um, I'm just

12:15concerned with the uh constitutional

12:18issues on this. Could you elaborate?

12:23>> Yeah. So, in in the first section of it,

12:26it's the installation of it. So, if and

12:30that covers if a vehicle is coming by,

12:32you know, you're not installing a car to

12:35to um shine light into the window. This

12:38is more for direct lights installed onto

12:42um residential property.

12:47So

12:47>> sorry, could elaborate?

12:51>> So say um I put a spotlight up on the

12:56side of my my house shining into the

12:59neighbor's property. That's the

13:01installation of it. Um, I'm causing the

13:04problem by installing that light on the

13:07side of the house. Um,

13:10as to where if I'm just driving by with

13:13my vehicle and the light shining there,

13:15you know, that's that's incidental.

13:21Okay. So, for somebody to install a

13:24spotlight in their yard or the side of

13:26their house and deliberately shine it on

13:29their neighbor's house or window, I

13:31could understand that being

13:33disrespectful and uh possibly in

13:36violation if a code is established. But

13:40what about when somebody installs a

13:42light on their side of the house? They

13:44want to make sure that that light

13:46illuminates uh their land, which could

13:49line up right to their neighbor's house

13:50and regrettably um not be helped from

13:54shining on their property or the side of

13:56their house. What do you do in a

13:57situation like that?

14:02>> So,

14:03the intent is the direct light going in

14:05there. I understand what you're saying.

14:06Um, I myself have spotlights in my house

14:10and um, out of respect for the

14:12neighbors, they're pointed in a way to

14:13they're not shining in the neighbors um,

14:16in the windows. I believe it's feasible

14:18um, with my own experience, it it's very

14:21feasible to direct that light away from

14:24windows and still obtain the the

14:27security um, of your property. So,

14:32I understand there's different scenarios

14:34here. um that could leave it up to

14:38question, but the goal here is to

14:40prevent nuisance lighting. Um and I know

14:45Councilman Rosha made comment to this,

14:46but this isn't the first complaint we've

14:48got um for lights and the pictures I've

14:52seen. It's not a matter of someone

14:54trying to illuminate their yard. They

14:55they've installed spotlights directly

14:58shining into windows. And that's the

15:00problem we're at here. um is it's it's

15:04being used to harass the neighbor. It's

15:06not necessarily

15:08um security lighting

15:10and and that's the issue. So, if if we

15:13need to clean up the language in this um

15:16I'll take all recommendations, but that

15:18that's our issue with

15:21why this ordinance is being presented.

15:23Uh, again, I I could see if somebody is

15:26shining a light into their neighbor's

15:28house or window deliberately, but my

15:32concern is if you put a spotlight on the

15:34side of your house, there's going to be

15:35the situation where uh you're going to

15:38have that footage of uh space that's

15:41going to come into play where you're not

15:44going to be able to help the light

15:46illuminating over on the person's

15:48property, whether it be uh the side of

15:50their house or a piece of their or

15:53whatever. As far as complaints, um I'

15:56I've heard of them, but uh they're very

15:58rare and few, at least in my district.

15:59Uh maybe it's different in Mr. Roach's

16:01district, but uh I haven't really gotten

16:04any complaints other than the situation

16:07back on Barrister when we put that

16:08spotlight up. Uh there was some

16:10residents complaining that the city

16:12sponsored spotlight was shining into uh

16:16the window and the side of their

16:17townhouse over there. But that's the

16:19only uh complaint that I've heard in my

16:21district. But again, um I I respect

16:25where you're coming from on this, but um

16:28it it's kind of going to get technical,

16:30so I'm going to have to really uh read

16:32the fine print when this ordinance is uh

16:35ready to be fully vetted before the full

16:38council.

16:44>> Thank you. Are you or do you yield?

16:49>> Well Well, furthermore, I'd like maybe

16:51Mr. Cop to look in to see if the state

16:53has anything on the books and if this in

16:57some way will sway into a constitutional

17:01issue because again, you're going to

17:03have vehicles that are going to be

17:05shining lights in people's uh windows in

17:08the side of the houses. um that of

17:11course can't be helped but

17:14you know if that happens you know what

17:16other things are going to happen like um

17:19you know uh when I walk my dog at night

17:22I carry a flashlight I mean I don't

17:23shine it into the side of people's

17:25houses but you know if I see something

17:27on the side of somebody's house I'm

17:29going to you know illuminate the light

17:30there to make sure that it's another dog

17:32or whatever uh is is somebody going to

17:35complain about that oh he shined his

17:37flashlight on the side of my house and

17:39it uh hit my window uh when he was

17:42shining it and uh my child was trying to

17:44sleep. I mean, is it going to become

17:45really technical? The other thing is uh

17:48we're talking about spotlights now on

17:51people's houses. Are we going to get

17:53into cameras next where we're not going

17:55to be able to focus our cameras on the

17:58front and the rear or the side of our

18:00houses into the street because it picks

18:02up another person's house?

18:05These are questions that need to be

18:07maybe looked into. Mr. cop.

18:12That's all I have.

18:15Any comment, Mr. Cop?

18:18>> Yeah. Uh, this ordinance uh does not

18:21cover cameras at all. So, any kind of a

18:25video recording, audio surveillance.

18:28This ordinance does not um does not hit

18:31on that at all. Um, as far as

18:34incidentals, I understand um where

18:37you're coming from, but it does say

18:40install, maintain, operate, or cause to

18:42be installed, maintained, or operated.

18:44So, again, a vehicle would not um

18:50it would not fall into that's

18:51incidental. So,

18:54>> like, correct, even a flashlight because

18:56it's not installed on the property. Um,

19:00which is why it's worded that way. This

19:01language is very similar to Kent

19:03counties. I just amended it to um

19:07reflect the city and what is our best

19:10interest. So um but it's language that

19:13is in uh Kent Countyy's code.

19:16>> Okay. I just don't want to get into any

19:18gray area. That's why I'm asking these

19:20questions.

19:26>> Oh, you're recognized.

19:28>> Thank you for recognizing me. Excuse

19:30[clears throat] me. To Councilman

19:32Lewis's uh point about the cameras, um

19:34it just kind of brought to mind I I have

19:36one of those outdoor cameras that's

19:38installed on the side of my house and um

19:41I have the option of having it

19:43illuminate when people pass by and so

19:46that light is pretty bright. So I can

19:48kind of understand where he was going

19:50with that that you know there may be um

19:53some spill over unintentionally to

19:55cameras as a result of the lighting if

19:58it has that feature. I yield.

20:02>> Thank you, Councilman Roshan and our

20:04mayor.

20:05>> Thank you. Um, Mr. Chairman,

20:08so

20:09I you know, I've heard everything

20:12about

20:15cameras. I have one of those as well,

20:18but they they do go on and off. They

20:20don't beam into the bedroom,

20:23illuminating the bedroom so that one

20:25could not sleep. That's what the purpose

20:27of this is for. Uh and and and folks

20:30that have lighting, if you have a motion

20:32sensor, it's it it might be for a second

20:36and that might be a good thing because

20:39when that comes on, that means

20:40somebody's protruding in your area on

20:43either property. But in this case, it's

20:47a fixed light

20:50from somebody else's property beaming

20:53into the bedroom window of somebody else

20:55in a disturbing sleep.

20:58is where this arose from. Um, and then I

21:02want to go back to what Councilwoman Art

21:04pointed out about the lumens, which I

21:07technically agree, but then how would

21:09you be able to determine what the lumen

21:12lumens are because you're not really

21:15allowed to go on the property to go and

21:17inspect the light. So, I don't I think

21:18that's why it looks like it's written

21:20the way it is and uh, you know, just

21:23rethinking it. um that might be okay the

21:26way it's written um because it will be c

21:29you know uh constituent complaint driven

21:31most likely you know in that instance um

21:34and at at that point they would have to

21:37prove what the lum the lumens are or how

21:39bright it is or

21:41>> point it down to get it out of

21:43somebody's bedroom window that that

21:44would be my thoughts on uh the purpose

21:47of this ordinance I yield if I may um I

21:53also use camera spotlights. Right? If

21:56I'm aiming that camera at somebody's

21:58window, I have another problem. Right

22:01now, we're in a PD problem. So, the

22:03light should not affect even if it is a

22:06camera light because you shouldn't be

22:07shining a camera in somebody's window.

22:09That's the only way your light from your

22:11camera would be going into somebody

22:12else's window, right? So, a little bit

22:15of light that's that's reflecting, it's

22:19it's going to happen, but it's not

22:21hindering that um that neighbor. So, I

22:26understand what everyone's saying, but

22:27cameras I think cameras should be left

22:29out of this. It's not a part of this um

22:32it's not a part of this ordinance, and

22:34we don't want to intrude on anyone's uh

22:37right to safety.

22:39>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Then, Councilman

22:42Bogertney.

22:43>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. President,

22:45I request a point of personal privilege

22:48at this time and I would uh like to

22:53advise council that uh I think that uh

22:57as king of the foyer violations

23:00uh we all know that uh to change the

23:04order of the uh council committees of

23:07the whole requires a motion of council

23:10to amend the agenda. We have not done so

23:14and it shows the propriety that we may

23:17be trying to pull a fast one. So I would

23:21count ask council to either to amend the

23:24agenda and approve it with no difference

23:26to you Eddie after your great

23:28presentation that we do this the right

23:30way the way that it needs to be done.

23:34The public is counting on us to do so.

23:36So Mr. President, I would request that

23:38there be a motion to council to amend

23:40the agenda or go back to its original

23:43format as advertised.

23:46>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr.

23:48President.

23:48>> A motion.

23:50>> I'll entertain a motion to that effect.

23:54>> Mr. President, um turn it first to turn

23:57it uh back over to you for for this and

24:02then Mr. President, I move that we uh uh

24:06continue uh with uh the changes earlier

24:10requested to of legislative finance and

24:13then parks, recreation and community

24:15enhancement.

24:16>> All second

24:17>> and it's been a seconded. I just want to

24:19make one note that the reason it was

24:22done, it was not done on purpose. It was

24:24done because the chair person was not

24:26here to basically take that meeting and

24:29so that was the reason for it. Any

24:32discussion on the motion?

24:35No discussion. All in favor, please say

24:37I.

24:38>> I.

24:39>> Any opposed? It passes unanimously.

24:42Please continue, Mr. Chairman.

24:44>> Uh, thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

24:48And we're Councilman uh Booerty.

24:51>> All right. Thank you. Um,

24:54in absence of our fine city solicitor,

24:57the individual who probably should have

25:00wanted to go to law school but did not,

25:02there's a standard called a reasonable

25:04person standard. The reasonable person

25:06standard is a is a legal standard where

25:08it says a hypothetical benchmark of

25:10ordinary intelligence of caution and

25:13prudence used by courts to evaluate

25:15whether a person's uh behavior was

25:18negligent. So in this particular case

25:22and we it would be I don't know how many

25:25of us except a few individuals will run

25:28out and measure the luminance and light

25:30bulbs um just to make sure that they

25:32didn't violate it by one or two

25:34luminance. I don't know how that's

25:36measured but there isn't a reasonable

25:38person standard. So then therefore to

25:40add specificity to that language to say

25:43it has to be this many again um would

25:47would would pigeon hole you or uh hold

25:50you to a standard that most of us

25:52probably couldn't measure by eye no pun

25:55intended. Um and then so therefore

25:58what's what I hypothetically what I

26:02believe would apply to this under some

26:04logical and legal uh framework is called

26:07the reasonable person standard. I joke a

26:09lot, but my dear colleague, well, not my

26:12colleague, but um and and I'm super

26:15mindful that I mistaken, well, I didn't

26:17mistakenly install a light, but I have

26:19to adjust the light because one of my

26:21neighbors, it shines right into their

26:23house, even though they're trees and I

26:25didn't know until I was made noticed. So

26:27therefore, I don't use that light when

26:30or if I have to turn it on, I call or

26:32text that individual to say, "Hey, I'm

26:35just finishing my grilling. it won't be

26:38on long because it's over my grill and I

26:40like to grill in the evenings. Um, I'll

26:42turn it off until I get it adjusted. So,

26:44the point is the the framework in in

26:48this is we understand cars will drive

26:50past and we understand security. I have

26:53security lights all around my house. If

26:56you come to my house uninvited, I can

26:58see you a mile away. Right. So um so it

27:03but like uh my other colleague said my

27:06light goes off when I pull into my

27:07driveway at night. My light comes on

27:09very very bright only because I can't

27:11see my keys. So there I'm getting old

27:14like my right. So I say that kind of

27:18facitiously but true that this is truly

27:22a ordinance or that the reasonable

27:25person standard I am certain will apply.

27:29I I I you know I I I don't think anybody

27:32will argue if a car drives by real fast

27:35and it lights up and it keeps going or

27:38but if you're standing at my house with

27:39a flashlight looking in my windows,

27:42you you better move very fast because

27:44I'm going to see you before you see me.

27:46I promise you. I yield.

27:51>> Mr. Smith,

27:53>> uh Glock and a few others. [laughter]

27:58Councilwoman Art.

28:00>> Thank you. Well, I consider myself to be

28:02a reasonable reasonable person, so I

28:04will withdraw my request to include a

28:06lumen. Um,

28:10>> so scratch that as written. I'm fine

28:12with it. And if we're ready, I'll make a

28:14motion to move it to council.

28:15>> There you go.

28:16>> We're not ready yet. Um, if you like to

28:19rest for a moment, uh, there were there

28:22was at least one uh, constituent in the

28:25public who wanted to make a comment or

28:27is that changed now?

28:30Okay, it looks like that question must

28:33have been answered. Anyone online?

28:37Mr. Garfinkle,

28:39please.

28:41>> Okay, I just had a

28:43>> see you, Mr. Siobhan. Mr. Garfinkle, go

28:45ahead.

28:47Can I ask a question now?

28:53>> A proceed.

28:55>> Thank you. Uh Mr. Cop is is the essence

28:59of the ordinance is it for focus light

29:01or ambient light?

29:07>> So it's a a beam of light versus a light

29:09bulb.

29:13>> Did you hear that?

29:14>> Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean That's a good

29:17question. Um, we're looking for focus

29:19light. Um, I could clarify that more in

29:22here. Um,

29:25I I understand what you're saying. I can

29:27understand a porch light, but even even

29:30a porch light, I don't think is going to

29:32be

29:35disruptive. We're looking more for for

29:37focus lighting, uh, spotlights,

29:42um,

29:43those kind those kind of lights. Like

29:45LED lights now are very powerful.

29:47They're they're almost too bright at

29:50points. Um, but most uh, porch lights

29:54have some kind of mechanism to

29:56uh, force the light in a certain

29:58direction. It's ne it's definitely not

30:00going to be shining up into someone's

30:02window. You might have a little bit of

30:03residual light coming from it, but it's

30:06not going to be focused into their

30:08window or or causing that nuisance.

30:12>> Okay. Thank you.

30:15>> Thank you,

30:18Mr. Shiovan. You're recognized.

30:21>> Yes. Thank you. Um, the only question I

30:24have, uh, and I don't know if it applies

30:27or not,

30:29uh, but on South College Road when

30:31you're going east after dark, and I know

30:36State College, they have lights at all

30:38their entrances and everything, but the

30:40one in particular, and I think they've

30:42moved it once before,

30:45um, but it seems to be turned around

30:48more and more, that you've got a direct

30:51highbeam light striking you coming down

30:54towards the uh entrance

30:58uh there by the bridge

31:01and I don't know if state college would

31:04fall under this ordinance or not and

31:08that was a question that I had

31:11>> it would not

31:12>> fix I think it was fixed one time before

31:16but I don't know if the students or

31:18someone else has turned it back. Uh, but

31:22there's a high beam of light going right

31:24up South College Road as you're coming

31:26down. It's almost to a blinding

31:30and I don't know if that if that doesn't

31:32fall underneath of it, then where would

31:34that be applied?

31:37>> Yeah. So, it wouldn't fall under this

31:39ordinance. However, uh the the college

31:43you're speaking of, that would be

31:44considered a commercial property. There

31:46is already language in the code that

31:48would cover that. if it if it's a

31:50portable light, that might be a little

31:52bit different. Um, I do know we've dealt

31:54with this before at a sports field. Um,

31:58but they felt because it was commercial

32:00property, it fell under that uh

32:02ordinance in the zoning ordinance. Um,

32:05but there is no language right now for

32:07residential property. It's only

32:09commercial property to residential

32:11property, not residential to

32:12residential, which is why this is before

32:14us tonight.

32:17>> U, okay. So that wouldn't apply. Where

32:20would that be reported then?

32:24>> So there there is an ordinance um

32:27depending on the light, it would be

32:29covered already under the current zoning

32:31ordinance.

32:33>> Okay. Because it's a permanent

32:35>> since we're aware of it, I

32:38will um I'll look into it and see what I

32:40can do to address it. But we do have

32:42enforceable language already. So if that

32:44still is occurring, we could address

32:46that with uh with the current ordinances

32:48we have.

32:50>> Okay. Thank you very much. I yield back.

32:55>> Thank you.

32:57Anyone else?

32:59>> I just have one more question for Mr.

33:01Cop.

33:02>> Sure. Who Who is

33:06>> Councilman Lewis?

33:07>> Councilman Lewis, you're recognized.

33:10>> U Mr. cop I I I don't know if you

33:13answered this correctly to Mr. Shiovach

33:15because you were going in and out. Um

33:18you had mentioned something about

33:20commercial property. So if you have a

33:23business that is next to a residential

33:26area or the business is right next door

33:29to the house, uh would that apply the

33:32same way? if the business had the side

33:35of um their building with a spotlight

33:39that illuminates onto the residential

33:41property. Number one. And number two, um

33:45and again, you were going in and out. Uh

33:47you had mentioned something about um uh

33:50sport um sport arenas or uh sporting

33:55areas, you know, when they have the big

33:57spotlights on the field uh and it's in a

33:59residential area. How would that apply?

34:03Yeah. So there is current language that

34:06prohibits that when it comes to

34:08commercial property onto residential

34:10property. Um

34:13so this ordinance before you tonight is

34:15specific to residential and residential

34:17property there. Commercial property is

34:19already covered. Um which you cannot

34:22shine light uh into a residential area.

34:25I do know the sports field we dealt

34:28with, it's because they exchanged

34:29everything to LED lights, but they

34:31didn't move the lights. So, the light

34:34was obnoxiously bright. Um, it was going

34:37into residential homes, but after a

34:40quick conversation, which that's the

34:42intent here is quick conversations. We

34:44send a notice and hopefully we can come

34:46to an agreement like we did with the

34:48sports field. We let them know it was an

34:50issue and they went out and fixed it

34:52within a couple days. um just

34:54redirecting the lights so it wasn't

34:55shining into the residential uh into the

34:58residential homes. So,

35:01this is this ordinance hopefully is more

35:04of an educational ordinance just like we

35:07use the commercial the commercial zoning

35:09ordinance now. Um anytime we do have a

35:11problem with this, it's more education

35:13because businesses don't want um any

35:17negative publicity against them. So when

35:19we make them aware of the problem, they

35:21usually correct it pretty quick. And

35:24hopefully that's the same intent or the

35:26same that happens with this current

35:28ordinance that's being presented for you

35:30tonight. Um our our goal is to educate

35:33and not to site, but we do have to have

35:37a mechanism to site people in the event

35:39they don't want to comply.

35:42>> Understood. And um is there going to be

35:45a fine associated with this or is it

35:47going to be uh a one-time warning and

35:50then repeated offenses results into a

35:52fine or have you established that yet?

35:55>> Yeah. So um the initial notice would be

35:58zero fine. It would be more of an

36:00educational and then citations would

36:02start at second notice which is um

36:06which mirrors all code enforcement that

36:09we do. We always send a first notice and

36:12then failure to comply with that notice

36:14would result in citations that start at

36:16$100.

36:19>> Okay, understood. I don't have any

36:21further questions at this time.

36:29>> Councilwoman Ar, you're recognized.

36:34>> Thank you. I have a motion to move the

36:36proposed ordinance 202615 to council for

36:39approval.

36:40>> Second.

36:40>> Hillsbury.

36:41>> Second.

36:42>> And that is that with uh account the

36:46discussion tonight.

36:48>> Did we make any amendments? I didn't

36:49think that we did.

36:51>> She withdrew.

36:52>> Withdrew. Okay. The uh that's fine.

36:59Any discussion?

37:02If anyone has any suggestions, now's the

37:05time.

37:07Seeing no discussion, all in favor?

37:10>> I

37:12I

37:14>> Any opposed? Motion passes. Thank you.

37:22And that takes us to the next item on

37:25the agenda, budget amendment discussion.

37:28and our city manager uh uh Sharon Duka,

37:32please uh come forward.

37:42>> Welcome.

37:43>> Thank you. Good evening, Sharon Duca,

37:46city manager. Um this evening I'd like

37:49to discuss a potential budget amendment

37:53in relation to the economic and

37:55community development fund.

37:58Um, I'd like to start um by briefing uh

38:01some of the status of the associated

38:04budget and projects if that's all right.

38:07Um, as you're likely aware, uh, as part

38:11of the fiscal 27 budget, there was a

38:15request to move money from the economic

38:17and community development fund

38:20um to pay for required entrance

38:22improvements to the Garrison Oak

38:23Technical Park.

38:25Uh it was noted in the budget that the

38:28there was a prior year balance of a

38:30little over $3 million with a transfer

38:34out of 1.426 million leaving a balance

38:38of approximately 1.672

38:41million.

38:43The fiscical year 27 year-to- date

38:45budget uh confirms these projections

38:49uh showing the the transfer to the

38:52general fund was complete uh in the

38:55amount of $1.426 million.

38:59Um staff had submitted an application

39:02for TIFF funds uh in May 2026

39:06um which uh showed a revised cost

39:11projection of a little over $2 million

39:13for the project.

39:16[clears throat]

39:16Um, it was the most current cost

39:18estimate based upon design changes that

39:21have occurred

39:23and a decision was received on August 26

39:27with approval letter received on

39:28September 26 that we received the

39:31funding for the project.

39:35Uh, the project is still in the design

39:38phase. Uh, comments have been received

39:41from DELDOT and a meeting with them has

39:43been requested.

39:45It is unknown at this point if the

39:48awarded amount will be adequate to cover

39:50the cost of the proposed improvements

39:52for the site.

39:54It's the goal of staff to place the

39:56project to bid within 45 days, but this

39:59will t depend upon the meeting results

40:01of delta.

40:04Uh due to the funding from the tip, it's

40:06been bured to complete a budget

40:08amendment and return the 1.426 426

40:11million to the economic and community

40:14development fund.

40:16Uh staff recommends that the return of

40:19the funds be limited until the project

40:21is bid and final costs are determined.

40:24Uh a buffer for potential change orders

40:27should also be considered.

40:30Um it should also be noted that the

40:33original funds for the design work for

40:35the project came out of the economic and

40:37community development fund.

40:39um in the amount of $90,000.

40:42Um it's projected there will be an

40:45additional $45,000

40:47in a engineers change order to address

40:49the concerns of DELDOT and make the

40:52appropriate changes to the plan. Uh this

40:56should this occur, this will come back

40:58for council approval as it exceeds the

41:00amount that I can approve by policy

41:04and I'm open to any questions.

41:07>> Thank you. any any questions from

41:11members?

41:15I know there will be. Um, while we're

41:19getting that straight, I I have a couple

41:22questions. And first of all, thank you

41:24for the update and bringing that to us.

41:27And seems like right now we will we just

41:31sort of put it on hold till after this

41:33meeting. And uh and and then uh what

41:38happens uh one of the things that I had

41:43interest in was of course uh bringing

41:46the fund uh back up to the uh the around

41:51the 2 million range which which we have

41:54certain needs for and the and may it's

41:58using uh some as a uh uh to possibly

42:03fund a a rebate to uh uh like a in a

42:10like in a PCA type credit to uh our uh

42:15customers that that we had to uh raise

42:19some rates for and that that's part of

42:21the discussion that that I was

42:23interested in having and and what that

42:25would look like. Um right now it's uh

42:29just a discussion because as you hear we

42:32need to uh keep it on hold but that's

42:34just something for for us to think about

42:37and and there's other possibilities u

42:39which which are also valid but those

42:42that was uh a discussion that I thought

42:44was interesting. I know Councilman Lewis

42:48had some input on that but I can't seem

42:51to but he seems to be offline right now.

42:55Um, any anyone else have any thoughts,

42:59priorities?

43:01>> Sounds good.

43:03>> Okay. Oh, Councilman Ro. Oh, okay.

43:07You're saying you're good. Okay. All

43:10right. If anyone else does, um, thank

43:13you.

43:14>> Thank you.

43:14>> Appreciate it.

43:18And then, uh, next, uh, Alderman's Court

43:22ad hoc committee update.

43:25At this time, I will uh call Councilman

43:28Anderson to the floor. Just kidding.

43:33Uh but I wanted to uh thank you and just

43:37bring an an update uh uh back to the

43:41Legislative Finance Administration

43:44Committee. I believe you you've seen the

43:47minutes that have been that were in the

43:49packet and the draft minutes and so

43:52you've had a chance to uh follow along

43:55with the meetings the committees had so

43:58far. Um we've had good robust uh

44:03participation and including

44:06we're grateful for uh our state

44:09representative uh Carrie Evelyn Harris

44:12participation. So um which which is very

44:17positive. We've had um uh the clerk of

44:20the court from uh Newark uh gives some

44:23excellent information

44:26and we have our our own um we have our

44:31own uh sort of experts uh on how that

44:35when it comes to uh uh Mr. Garfinkle was

44:40a state magistrate and of course uh

44:43Judge Wisdom was the superior is a

44:46retired superior court uh judge and and

44:49they've been very valuable. We also have

44:52uh Dr. Hoff uh who was the uh chair of

44:57the uh government and history department

44:59at Delaware State University

45:01and in their uh their expertise has been

45:05um I think it's been a very positive

45:08addition and of course we have uh the

45:11community and and people from various

45:14walks of life um

45:17and in a very uh diverse uh group of

45:21people and

45:23And so as you go through

45:28we we first looked at the feasibility

45:32uh it's obviously feasible. It's uh

45:35working already in six municipalities.

45:39Uh Judge Wisom likes to emphasize Stover

45:43did have one. Um of course that's been

45:4670 years ago. Um but a lots but a lot's

45:51changed in the uh 70 years uh plus 1954.

45:56Um, a lot's changed in that time and

45:59it's uh caused us to reconsider

46:04uh the uh we we've looking at uh various

46:10uh ways that the court would be able to

46:14operate uh fairly, justly um but also uh

46:20not lose money. And there's been some

46:23great input from our experts on that

46:26setup and how that would work, how that

46:28would operate. Um,

46:31quite frankly, the best we can tell,

46:33there's not any alderman's courts that

46:36do lose money in the state of no

46:39municipalities trying to get rid of

46:40them. the ones that have them. The um we

46:45looked at and but one of the things that

46:49we care about is

46:52making it to make it work for Dover. Um

46:57we are not trying to come up with a

47:00mechanism to

47:03bring more revenue in. We're trying to

47:06come up with a mechanism that we can

47:08control our own destiny and be able to

47:12enforce the lower level offenses so that

47:15the uh state department of justice can

47:19do what it feels like it needs to and

47:21focus its resources on the higher level

47:24offenses.

47:27uh there has to be a connection. Uh uh

47:30New Arcs uh for their needs has shown uh

47:34some ways of doing that and and we would

47:37want to do that with ours and in ways

47:40that make sense to us and that includes

47:43uh uh 10 goals that that the committee

47:48came up with. Uh one is to improve the

47:51quality of life for all including

47:54residents and offenders.

47:57Uh, one way you would do that would be

47:59to uh make sure the court has

48:02jurisdiction to allow referrals such as

48:06to uh to drug court, to veterans court,

48:09to specialty courts for people who who

48:12need that. Uh, provide clear

48:15distinctions between matters handled by

48:17the alleman's court and the state court

48:20system. Establish the court's

48:22jurisdiction including exclusive and

48:25joint jurisdiction.

48:28Uh four, develop cost and revenue

48:31estimates and assess uh whe the court

48:34can be self- sustained. Five, ensure the

48:37court is a community oriented and not

48:40driven solely by fines.

48:42Six, include referrals as we mentioned

48:45the drug court and other specialty

48:47courts. Uh seven, uh retain a criminal

48:52focus and avoid affecting people's

48:54properties through court's jurisdiction.

48:57Eight, developing sentencing guidelines

49:01that include uh constructive community

49:04service.

49:06Nine, explore whether the court could

49:09serve as an entry point for individuals

49:12uh needing mental health assistance. 10

49:15explore probation before judgment as a

49:18mechanism for paid workforce

49:21development, soft skills and assessment

49:23of individual needs. And uh those those

49:28were uh goals that were uh unanimously

49:32supported by a uh um very uh diverse uh

49:39group in the committee and it and it

49:42came to consensus. the the um the

49:46committee would continue to meet and uh

49:49answer these questions and develop them.

49:51And then after

49:53there's a when there's a uh the

49:56beginning a proposal that's ready to

49:58take to the public um we're going to

50:02engage in community outreach uh

50:05including uh town halls

50:08um and uh surveys and and uh other

50:13methods to uh reach out to the public

50:17and to ensure that the uh the public

50:20feed feedback is uh on the proposals

50:24that comes and then any changes that the

50:26public has uh would be there and then

50:31uh when we uh come back before it it

50:35goes to is sent back to this committee

50:38which is the committee that would

50:40consider it. Um there would be their

50:44plan would be to have an one uh final

50:47evening meeting to try to get as uh

50:50because then by that time there should

50:52be enough publicity that people actually

50:55care to uh come out and then u it would

50:59be sent back to here and then once um

51:03and if here the committee here uh likes

51:07it it would go to council and be sent to

51:10the general assembly for approval and

51:13then the once that's approved then the

51:16longer process would begin which would

51:18be developing the specifics but first it

51:22has to be allowed by of course the

51:25general assembly they have to give us

51:26the authority back

51:29um anyway uh questions from members of

51:31the committee

51:36okay Mr. found a comment.

51:39>> Oh, hold on. Uh, Councilman Lewis,

51:43>> uh, just a comment, no questions

51:45because, uh, as you are aware, I'm on

51:47the ad hoc committee, but, uh, Mr.

51:49Anderson is correct. There's a lot of

51:52factors that still have to come into

51:53play with this proposal. Um, as far as

51:57I'm concerned, uh, the juryy's still out

52:00till uh, we get, uh, more in depth

52:03answers on a lot of questions that the

52:06ad hoc committee has put out there. Uh,

52:09furthermore, um, cost is a major concern

52:13uh, with me as far as starting this

52:15court up court up and uh, that's always

52:18going to be the situation uh, at this

52:21juncture is cost. How much is it going

52:23to cost us to start this up? I mean, we

52:25could uh say we're going to make revenue

52:27in the future to sustain uh the workings

52:31of the court, but uh where are we going

52:33to find the funding to start it up? And

52:36that's all I have to say at this point.

52:38Thank you.

52:40>> Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Mr. F,

52:43you're recognized.

52:48>> William F of do Delaware. I got a couple

52:51issues with this one. I sent an email to

52:54you council president Neil the whole

52:56council by and the mayor I believe most

52:58committee meetings meet after 5:00 I

53:02think you're doing a misj justice to the

53:03citizens of this city when you're

53:05meeting around 3:15 3:30 no one can

53:09attend in public or virtually and the

53:13excuse you're saying legislators do it

53:15all the time this is c uh the city

53:19you're excluding the citizens from

53:20giving input at every phase of us.

53:23Second of all, this city is seven

53:26according to Mstuka, you can correct me

53:27if I'm wrong, we were seven over $7

53:29million in the hole. According to the

53:32article from the state news, young lady

53:34wrote, very good article, it's going to

53:37cost about 500,000 to get started. Where

53:39are you going to get the seed money? Mr.

53:41Anderson, Councilman Anderson, be

53:43respectful. Two, what are you gonna do

53:46about security, facilities, and all

53:48that? You can't even give our police

53:50officer a decent raise without going to

53:53uh buy any arbitration. So, you want to

53:55pick up a judge, office space, more

53:59personnel, part-time or full-time,

54:01you're putting more money onto the

54:02citizens, and you're saying it's not

54:04going to be cost generated or fine

54:06generated. You're going to be making

54:10people pay fines. So, the courts going

54:12to be paid on the backs of the citizens.

54:15The higher courts can take care of these

54:17issues.

54:19for safety because you said in your

54:21article it will help make this the city

54:23much safer. We got gun violence on the

54:26street, drugs, prostitution, other big

54:28things. Minor thing of speeding, tariff

54:32tickets, that's not going to make us

54:33safer. You know, prosperity according to

54:36our make the city more prosper. You're

54:38going to make it prosper in the back of

54:40the citizens. When is it enough? You

54:43know, you got to answer all these

54:45questions. where you going to get the

54:47security for the place, the uh holding

54:50cells, if you have holding cells, all

54:53these things. We don't have the money to

54:55do this. If the higher courts can handle

54:58it, let them handle it. If we had a

55:00surplus, it'd be a different story. We

55:04don't have a surplus. We're in the hole.

55:06And you haven't fixed the budget issue

55:08yet. We may have a fourth year of

55:10budgets going increasing.

55:12So, this is not the right thing. put

55:15your energies in bringing more revenue

55:16into the city, make it safer, get the

55:20guns off the street, get the prostitutes

55:22off the street, get the drugs off the

55:24street. That's going to make our city

55:25safer, more prosperous if we get rid of

55:28the uh situation. Thank you.

55:30>> Thank you for your comments, sir. Yeah,

55:33I'd like to if to rebut in this sense

55:38that you will never get the prostitutes

55:42off the streets or the drugs off the

55:44street with the current Department of

55:46Justice in the regular courts because

55:51they absolutely will not do it. And

55:54that's is precisely why we need an

55:58alderman's court that will be able to do

56:01those particular referrals. Please come

56:04forward. That's precisely why we need an

56:06alderman's court to do those particular

56:08referrals because it until there's a

56:12massive policy change uh which has been

56:15documented that won't happen. Uh

56:18>> so so uh thank you. Yes ma'am.

56:23Belinda, city of Dover, I'm listening to

56:26all this and you're, as Mr. FA has said,

56:30you're adding more onto the constituents

56:33of each district for an ultimate.

56:41So, what makes you think an altraman's

56:43court is going to handle crime,

56:46prostitution?

56:47We can't even get centers to help the

56:50homeless, help the people on drugs. that

56:52that's the first priority is to get

56:54those the help they need before we

56:57create a whole new thing uh of people

57:00who don't care because you're getting

57:03paid not to care because if you got paid

57:06to care then you'd be doing something

57:10with

57:12the power that you guys have. But I

57:14don't see anything happening besides

57:16putting us in debt, putting the city in

57:19even more debt.

57:21And it's it's just a vicious cycle that

57:24you guys put money in our pockets and we

57:26help you do that by paying you to do

57:29nothing. So an alderman's court is not

57:32going to do anything if it's created or

57:34not created. The justice system isn't

57:36going to handle it. Alderman's court's

57:39not going to handle it because you're

57:40going to sit here and you're going to

57:41discuss and you're going to fight and

57:43you're going to argue and you know not

57:45put anybody else's uh concerns ahead

57:49which is another form of counsel. So, in

57:54my respect, I'm not supporting it as a

57:57constituent

57:59because until I see support from the

58:02people that we pay on council to do

58:05their job,

58:07I'm not supporting anything that comes

58:09from council's voices

58:12to what constituents concerns are. You

58:16guys are listening, but are you actually

58:18hearing what the constituents are

58:20saying? Are you trying to do anything

58:22besides create another

58:25council?

58:26>> No.

58:26>> Another committee. Thank you,

58:29>> Mr.

58:30>> Thank you,

58:31>> Mr. Chair.

58:32>> Yes, Council President Neil.

58:34>> Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. Exactly.

58:37That's exactly what we're trying to do.

58:39We're dealing with people and we've been

58:41asked by citizens

58:43to help with the people who are not able

58:46to help themselves because of addictions

58:50or because of mental illness which is

58:53leading to homelessness. There is no way

58:56that we can take legally action as

58:59members of council. You need a legal

59:01system that's going to say that this is

59:03required of you to have help and to do

59:07that help. And you need to have the

59:10legal system in order to do that. And

59:12this has been asked by citizens who have

59:14come to us and say they our businesses

59:17have been disrupted. We can't make the

59:20money. this is the money that we we are

59:22going to be paying in order to help

59:25these people and we can't afford it

59:27because they're interrupting our

59:29businesses and driving uh customers away

59:33and they're hurting the values of our

59:35home. That it's exactly the reason why

59:38the alderman's court steps in and

59:41basically does what the uh uh Department

59:44of Justice isn't doing. If the

59:46Department of Justice was doing this, we

59:49wouldn't have to go this way. And

59:51citizens who have come to us and asked

59:54for this help. Not maybe not you, but

59:57others who are basically affected. And

59:59it has nothing to do with money from

1:00:01these individuals. It has to do with

1:00:04saying this is something that's required

1:00:06of you to get the help that you need.

1:00:09that help has got to be there long

1:00:12enough to be able to get them off of

1:00:14those problems with their melt illnesses

1:00:17or their uh detoxification and to get

1:00:21them into training programs. That's the

1:00:23reason for I yield Mr. Chairman.

1:00:27>> Thank you u Miss Pennington and I will

1:00:34uh councilwoman.

1:00:37Yes, I already had recognized her. So I

1:00:40I see. Then I'll go to the council

1:00:42woman.

1:00:42>> I'm not gonna be Hi, my name is Bonnie.

1:00:44I live in Dover. My question is we do

1:00:48need help getting the homeless people,

1:00:50the drug addicts, you know, the

1:00:53pedestrians from not being hit instead

1:00:56of everybody fighting saying you guys

1:01:00are not doing your job. Um, why can't we

1:01:03all just accommodate on instead of

1:01:06spending more money to open up another

1:01:08factory? Why can't we use the old family

1:01:12court that's sitting there that

1:01:15everybody's tax dollars is paying, not

1:01:18just mine, everybody in this room. So,

1:01:21accommodate before saying, "Hey, I'm

1:01:24going to say we're going to add on to a

1:01:26new building." Stop putting buildings in

1:01:29here. start using the ones we have.

1:01:31There are a lot of buildings that are

1:01:33sitting empty that everybody's tax money

1:01:36is paying for. I'm not just paying for

1:01:39it. Everybody's paying for it. So, I'm

1:01:42not disagreeing and I'm not agreeing on

1:01:45what's going on. I think if we

1:01:47accommodate agree with Mr. Fowler on the

1:01:51meeting situation, there's no way I can

1:01:54make it here at no 3:00 in the

1:01:55afternoon. I know half of everybody in

1:01:58this seat can't make it because people

1:02:00do have other jobs. The point of it is

1:02:03I'm not saying you guys are not doing

1:02:04your job because I'm not going to say

1:02:06that because it takes a villain to clean

1:02:09up this uh uh city. So, everybody needs

1:02:12to stop uh throwing knives at each

1:02:15other's backs and start working

1:02:17together. We're not going to get

1:02:19anything done by sitting here and

1:02:21working against each other. This is

1:02:23ridiculous. I've been in this building

1:02:26since 2005

1:02:29and it's the same thing, but we're not

1:02:32getting it. You guys are doing some

1:02:34things. I'm not saying you're not, but

1:02:36the thing of it is we're all pointing

1:02:38fingers at each other instead of working

1:02:40with each other. It's time to stop

1:02:43fighting and start working together.

1:02:45Start using the buildings we have. We

1:02:48have plenty of buildings that are

1:02:49sitting here. You've got the old court

1:02:52or police station, whatever it is, in

1:02:54front of the um farmers market. You got

1:02:57the old um family court building sitting

1:03:01there. You got the other building

1:03:03sitting here. They're sitting here

1:03:05empty. Use them before you start putting

1:03:08more money out to put us more in debt.

1:03:11$7 million is a lot of money for this

1:03:14city to be in debt. Come on, guys.

1:03:17Nobody I'm not blaming anybody. I think

1:03:20we just need to start moving together,

1:03:22working it together, start putting out

1:03:24more bit. Look at this room. Last night,

1:03:27this room was capacitated. Where's

1:03:30everybody at tonight?

1:03:32There's nobody here because they all

1:03:35feel that they're coming in here and

1:03:37telling you how they feel and they see

1:03:39nothing getting done. Mr. Cox.

1:03:42>> I agree with the light situation, but I

1:03:45don't because on North Kirkwood Street

1:03:47and Cash Street,

1:03:48>> I love

1:03:49>> love to have a light out there.

1:03:52>> Thank you.

1:03:52>> And that's all I say.

1:03:53>> Thank you. And uh coun and uh by the way

1:03:58uh we are exploring

1:04:01uh those buildings and others. U but but

1:04:05we we don't own them. So we're we have

1:04:08so we have to

1:04:11But we are asking

1:04:13>> I'll start using it and using the

1:04:15buildings we have.

1:04:16>> Oh, we don't we don't disagree. We're

1:04:18exploring that. Um but uh Councilwoman

1:04:22Ar,

1:04:23>> thank you for recognizing me. I I just

1:04:25want to start off by saying I I

1:04:27appreciate the intent of exploring this

1:04:30this option. Um I I appreciate what

1:04:33you're doing. I appreciate everyone's

1:04:34time that they're putting into this ad

1:04:36hoc committee. I don't quite see how

1:04:38it's coming together yet. Um, but I will

1:04:41I will reserve judgment until I have all

1:04:43the information. Um, so my question is

1:04:47more to process and timeline. So you

1:04:50have the ad hoc committee. I'd like to

1:04:52know

1:04:54as far as meeting schedule.

1:04:56How much longer do you think you'll be

1:05:00focused on this ad hoc committee and

1:05:02gathering information? and will there be

1:05:04a feasibility report that will come out

1:05:07of this effort? Um, and looking to a a

1:05:12possible budget for startup costs and

1:05:15how that would be maintained over time.

1:05:17So, when when do we anticipate moving

1:05:19from an ad hoc committee to having

1:05:21something for council and the public to

1:05:22react to?

1:05:24>> Uh, it depends. We're on different

1:05:28factors when the ad hoc committee feels

1:05:31comfortable with that, but uh currently

1:05:33we're on the path of probably about 3

1:05:36months more.

1:05:38>> It's pretty aggressive.

1:05:40>> It is pretty aggressive and uh but you

1:05:44know if it needs to take longer it will

1:05:46take longer. uh if you know the first

1:05:49steps are the first steps we we had

1:05:53decide in just dialoguing if that's okay

1:05:57the first step we had to decide was

1:06:00it was to listen to bring people in hear

1:06:05from other municipalities and find out

1:06:09um how happy they are with it is it even

1:06:12worth pursuing that was that was step

1:06:15one Uh once we went through all that and

1:06:19checked all these out and we checked

1:06:21budget numbers out from across the state

1:06:23and we we did all the that due diligence

1:06:27and and then talking with staff and the

1:06:31like then we then we uh

1:06:35we we moved to the next steps uh because

1:06:38then we we believe that it was um worth

1:06:43looking into. The first step was is it

1:06:46worth looking into further? And the

1:06:48answer was yes. The second step is u is

1:06:53figuring out uh what the jurisdiction

1:06:55would look like, how it would benefit

1:06:57the people of the city, how it would uh

1:07:01how it would sustain itself.

1:07:04And then uh after that uh comes

1:07:09uh other steps uh and the the committee

1:07:12will not necessarily

1:07:14uh solve the problem of

1:07:17uh like how you want to start up but it

1:07:20will present options

1:07:23back and like different uh feasible

1:07:26options and then it would be because

1:07:29there could be um the the council could

1:07:33decide

1:07:34Yeah, there's uh three different

1:07:35possible feasible options u but we're

1:07:39not ready to start yet, but we'll uh get

1:07:41the authority

1:07:43and then council could take nine nine

1:07:47months, a year, two years to be able to

1:07:50line everything up so that it could

1:07:52start. I mean that uh the the first step

1:07:55would be to get the authority and if we

1:07:59did it we wanted to do it right so that

1:08:02it has the jurisdiction to accomplish

1:08:04the things that we want to accomplish

1:08:07otherwise what's the point? Um, if if

1:08:10you can't get the jurisdiction, if you

1:08:12can't get the referrals to drug court,

1:08:14if you can't get the referrals to uh if

1:08:17you don't set it up for probation before

1:08:20judgment for certain things, if you uh

1:08:23so that you can get people, firsttime

1:08:26offenders, the help they need and so on.

1:08:28that and that's you know in other so

1:08:31that that became uh and and also uh

1:08:35there's going to be certain

1:08:36recommendations about how to handle

1:08:40certain things like u we the the

1:08:44recommendation that where there's joint

1:08:46jurisdiction there once uh there would

1:08:49be a um

1:08:52uh there would be uh some real code

1:08:55amendments to codify in the city

1:08:58ordinance certain offenses so that they

1:09:01could

1:09:02be charged like like speeding uh in

1:09:06residential neighborhoods and the like

1:09:08so they so they could be charged if we

1:09:11wanted to on a city offense and keep all

1:09:14of the money, you know, and and things

1:09:16of that nature. And Newark had some

1:09:19interesting things that they they've

1:09:21done on that. And that would be there

1:09:23would be um you know that if if we did

1:09:28those type of things that it would

1:09:30definitely pay for itself. Um

1:09:34and that that's uh you know if you don't

1:09:37want to pay a fine. The the good part

1:09:39about it is you don't have to because

1:09:42you don't have to commit the offense.

1:09:44You know if don't don't drive 40 through

1:09:46my neighborhood and I'll never find you

1:09:48for driving 40 through the neighborhood.

1:09:51um you know and that's the that's it's

1:09:54voluntary in that sense. Um but anyway

1:09:57that's where we are. Uh

1:10:01gentleman in the back

1:10:03>> Reggie there you go. Thank you Reggie.

1:10:07I'm sorry. Were you finished? I

1:10:09apologize.

1:10:10>> In in summary though it sounds like the

1:10:12ad hoc committee will continue for 3 to

1:10:14six months. Let's just say and then um

1:10:18the legislative changes, charter

1:10:19changes, what have you. the things that

1:10:20need to happen to even move this

1:10:22forward. We're looking at a year and a

1:10:23half, two years.

1:10:25>> Yes. Before before you can implement

1:10:27this, it is from the time it's been

1:10:30referred to when it possibly could be,

1:10:34it would be at least a year and a half

1:10:36from from back in May to then uh to the

1:10:40end be the end of next year before you

1:10:42could even do it. And that's that's a

1:10:46pretty aggressive time frame. Um,

1:10:50it would be up to council and staff, you

1:10:54know, if they wanted to be that

1:10:56aggressive, but it may take longer

1:10:58because you may be able to work things

1:11:00out and and to get buildings and that

1:11:04doesn't happen overnight and you may

1:11:07look at other opportunities. Uh, you you

1:11:11may start like even here and then go

1:11:16somewhere else when it's open. I mean

1:11:18there there's just so many possibilities

1:11:20that you could um

1:11:23that that you can do and they need to be

1:11:26explored and fleshed out and that's just

1:11:28not going to happen overnight. And then

1:11:31once we get to to that area, we we've

1:11:35got to uh bring it to the public, sort

1:11:39of do the road show, do the town halls

1:11:41and and make sure that the uh that the

1:11:45public uh has interest in it because it

1:11:48is a charter change. You want for a

1:11:50charter change, you you uh want it to

1:11:54reflect

1:11:56uh be sure that it reflects the will of

1:11:58the majority, at least the majority who

1:12:00care. Um you know, and so we want we'd

1:12:03want to educate the public and get get

1:12:06public feedback as well that so it we

1:12:10are not talking about a u a process

1:12:13that's anywhere near complete at this

1:12:15point. And if uh and it's going to have

1:12:19a lot of opportunities for for um public

1:12:24input right now, we could have a meeting

1:12:27anytime you want and people wouldn't

1:12:28show up because they don't know what it

1:12:31is.

1:12:32So, I think between now and and, you

1:12:35know, moving it forward, should it move

1:12:37forward, there will be many, many, many

1:12:39opportunities for public comment over a

1:12:41two-year time frame um as you consider

1:12:44the the options and and the process

1:12:46moving forward. So, thank you for that.

1:12:47I yield.

1:12:48>> Absolutely. Because once you um even

1:12:52once you get the charter change then the

1:12:54implementation phase is going to take a

1:12:57lot of public input and ideas uh before

1:13:00it can be possibly be implemented. U sir

1:13:07thank you.

1:13:09>> Good evening. Uh my name is Reginel

1:13:11Daniel and I live in towns in Delaware.

1:13:14Um my concern regarding the alter court

1:13:17and a few different statements made is

1:13:19that I believe one of our biggest points

1:13:23of conflict is that we are missing

1:13:27critical

1:13:29facilities and services to address

1:13:32substance use disorder and um mental

1:13:35health treatment. Uh just one example I

1:13:38can give is I there's a homeless

1:13:40resident that regularly comes to my

1:13:42office uh who is deaf.

1:13:46I don't have a means of communicating

1:13:48with this individual. They can write

1:13:50somewhat but there's nowhere that I am

1:13:54aware of whereas can we have this man

1:13:56get donated a hearing aid. Um, we have

1:14:00people who we deal with who are either

1:14:03illiterate or they read and comprehend

1:14:06at a fourth or fifth grade level. Um,

1:14:09for people who are struggling with um,

1:14:12substance use disorder, particularly

1:14:14with injectables,

1:14:16they can't go to certain places because

1:14:17they cannot treat a patient that has

1:14:19open wounds. But we don't have an open

1:14:22wounds care facility within uh the

1:14:24immediate do area that what we are doing

1:14:27is when it comes to addiction care and

1:14:30mental health services care it is a long

1:14:33running chain of services and we're

1:14:35having breakages in the links. If we

1:14:38could just find a way to focus on

1:14:40filling those gaps first and foremost, I

1:14:43believe it would be a bit of a slower

1:14:44process, but I think would be more

1:14:46effective than alderman's court. That we

1:14:49can only hold so many people. But what

1:14:51we should be doing is trying to put out

1:14:53those central fires that are causing the

1:14:55situations in the first place. that no

1:14:58one of us in 10,000 years will ever be

1:15:02able to fully eliminate poverty or

1:15:04wealth equality or mental illness, but

1:15:07we can at least try and deal with those

1:15:10baseline foundational issues that are

1:15:13making it so prevalent in our community

1:15:16that I think that is what we need to

1:15:17focus on that I don't think we'll be

1:15:20able to dig ourselves out of debt

1:15:22through vines. I think that would be if

1:15:25anything squeezing blood from a stone. I

1:15:28think that we do need to address the

1:15:30safety of what it comes to speeding.

1:15:32That should be our primary focus on

1:15:35getting ourselves out of the hole.

1:15:37>> I think our focus should be on building

1:15:40out those foundational building blocks

1:15:42that once the homeless and the mentally

1:15:45ill and those suffering from addiction

1:15:46have a concurrent cycle of resources

1:15:51that they have ready access to. that

1:15:54when we have those particular little

1:15:56things that we focus on, just making

1:15:58sure first and foremost that they can

1:16:00get a hearing aid so they can hear what

1:16:02services are available, then we can

1:16:04really start making that long-term

1:16:06change that it's not as popular. It

1:16:10certainly is not going to be popular

1:16:12with certain elements of people in our

1:16:14community, but I think it is the most

1:16:16important and most humanitarian means of

1:16:19achieving this. Thank you, sir.

1:16:23All right. Is there someone online?

1:16:27Okay. With seeing enough say everybody

1:16:31has had their chance. So, we will

1:16:33adjourn the Legislative Finance

1:16:35Administration Committee and I turn it

1:16:37over to you, Council President.

1:16:40>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I now recognize

1:16:43Chairwoman Danielle Hall to conduct the

1:16:45business of the Parks, Recreation, and

1:16:48Community Enhancement Committee. The

1:16:50floor is yours.

1:16:51>> Thank you for recognizing me, Council

1:16:53President. I call to order parks,

1:16:55Recreation, and Community Enhancement

1:16:57Committee.

1:17:00The

1:17:00>> chair will entertain a motion to adopt

1:17:02the agenda.

1:17:03>> Move for adoption of agenda.

1:17:08>> Pillsbury second.

1:17:10>> It has been properly moved and seconded.

1:17:13Any discussion?

1:17:14>> Discussion.

1:17:15>> Discussion.

1:17:17chair recognizes Councilman Boardy. Um,

1:17:22>> is is there any new information that's

1:17:26going to present be presented that we

1:17:28haven't heard or is just a formality

1:17:31because we did not have a quorum last

1:17:34time to move this over. Is that

1:17:37>> I believe we're going to have some

1:17:38additional information that's going to

1:17:40be presented this evening.

1:17:42>> Thank you. I yield.

1:17:44Chair recognizes Councilman Rosha.

1:17:47>> Yes. Uh because of the nature of the um

1:17:50topic, I must recuse myself at this time

1:17:53like I have done in the past. So uh I I

1:17:56am formally recusing.

1:18:07>> Is there any further discussion?

1:18:09>> Madame Chairman,

1:18:12>> chair recognizes council president. Yes,

1:18:14thank you. In addition to the packet

1:18:17material which is available to everyone

1:18:19and is quite copious, I read the minutes

1:18:22of the council meeting of the whole

1:18:23meeting that I missed due to a not so

1:18:26common cold. I will be voting to approve

1:18:28staff recommendations as the evidence

1:18:31speaks for itself, the failure to to

1:18:34follow federal requirements and state

1:18:37legislature I mean the city ordinances

1:18:40and timelines. The main concern that the

1:18:44crux of this is what replaces the lost

1:18:47spaces. I reviewed a proposal presented

1:18:50by Councilman Dr. Sudler which I support

1:18:54and hope the members of the city council

1:18:56will support in resolution. It calls for

1:18:59the use of the 150 bed state Mars

1:19:04corrections facility now sitting asy.

1:19:07The mayor also mentioned the fact that

1:19:09the family court, which is his state

1:19:11property and not ours, uh also stands

1:19:15empty and could be used. We do need to

1:19:19resolve the problem. I think this

1:19:21council is interested is mo very

1:19:23interested in resolving the problem. And

1:19:26on October the 27th, as chairman um

1:19:30Anderson has mentioned, this is a topic

1:19:33that will be explored very thoroughly.

1:19:36So, we're not ignoring the problem. We

1:19:38know that it exists and we need to have

1:19:41the replacements and something perhaps

1:19:43more permanent. I yield, Mr. Chair,

1:19:46Madam Chairman.

1:19:47>> Thank you, Council President. Any

1:19:48further discussion?

1:19:51>> Madame Chair,

1:19:53>> chair recognizes mayor.

1:19:55>> Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Uh while

1:19:58I'm not at uh liberty to go into any

1:20:00great length of uh detail, uh myself and

1:20:04one of our local uh two of our local

1:20:08representatives for from the state

1:20:09legislature have been working in earnest

1:20:12with with the state of Delaware and we

1:20:15will make a probably have a presentation

1:20:18to make uh in regard to the matter of

1:20:21the loss of uh uh housing for uh during

1:20:25the winter. Uh so we are on this uh on

1:20:29this matter in earnest and I want to

1:20:31thank the the uh our state legislators

1:20:34for uh facilitating a solution to this

1:20:38problem.

1:20:40>> Madam Chair,

1:20:41>> do you yield?

1:20:46>> Is there any further discussion?

1:20:51All those in favor of adopting the

1:20:53agenda, please signify by saying I. I I

1:20:56>> Any opposed?

1:20:58The motion carries. The adoption of the

1:21:00agenda is approved.

1:21:03>> Madame chair.

1:21:04>> Yes. I apologize.

1:21:05>> Councilman Bogerty,

1:21:08>> are you talking on this topic or any

1:21:11topic because she's yielded. So you I'm

1:21:15giving you permission to discuss

1:21:16whatever you wish to say.

1:21:19>> You yielded. Okay. Well, perplexed. Are

1:21:23you chairing or council president

1:21:24sharing? Whoever's chairing I just wish

1:21:27to

1:21:28>> chair recognizes councilman.

1:21:30>> All right. Thank you. And this is no

1:21:33this is not um any disrespect from the

1:21:36work that has been done the additional

1:21:39information but the truth of the matter

1:21:41is I think I mean I'm I'm all I've my

1:21:46you've put together copious notes

1:21:49information has beened I I'm ready to

1:21:52call in and I'm ready to call the

1:21:55question to accept staff recommendation

1:22:02Yes, if you have this person will

1:22:06introduce her herself.

1:22:09>> Um, we have on the agenda and we did

1:22:11approve the agenda. Um, did I miss your

1:22:15>> that the agenda allows me to move to

1:22:18accept staff recommendation? I'm not

1:22:20changing the agenda. I'm accepting

1:22:22staff. I'm making a motion to accept

1:22:25staff recognition

1:22:27to withdraw the previously approved

1:22:29$40,000 from the CDBG allocations for

1:22:32the people's community center renovation

1:22:35project and direct staff to make funds

1:22:37available through the 2027 annual action

1:22:40plan process. So that's my I was just

1:22:42calling in. I just call

1:22:43>> Is there a second to the motion?

1:22:45>> Hillsbury seconds it

1:22:48>> has been properly moved and seconded. Is

1:22:50there discussion?

1:22:52>> Discuss.

1:22:53>> Chair recognizes Councilman Anderson.

1:22:55>> Uh thank you. Uh

1:22:58Madame Chair, I would uh urge members to

1:23:01uh not move on this before we hear from

1:23:07uh both sides. uh the members of the

1:23:12uh people's community center were asked

1:23:14to bring information

1:23:17uh which addresses

1:23:19their the complaints or the complete

1:23:23information and

1:23:25uh I for one know that they've uh

1:23:28brought quite a bit of information would

1:23:31like to uh present it and I think that

1:23:34they should be able to present that. I

1:23:36withdraw. I'll withdraw if the the

1:23:38secondary agreed.

1:23:39>> Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you.

1:23:42>> I did it for them, not specifically for

1:23:44you.

1:23:46>> Councilwoman Art, did you have any

1:23:47further discussion?

1:23:49>> That that captured it. I'd like to

1:23:51provide the opportunity for for comment

1:23:53on the on the issue, even though we did

1:23:55discuss it at great length uh in a prior

1:23:58meeting, but if there's no information,

1:23:59I'd like to hear it.

1:24:01Councilman uh at large Bogardi has

1:24:04withdrawn his motion and so we will move

1:24:06forward with the agenda and uh Miss

1:24:08O'Brien, would you kindly brief us?

1:24:12>> Good evening

1:24:12>> and welcome.

1:24:14>> Thank you. Uh my name is Debbie O'Brien

1:24:16and I'm the community development

1:24:17manager for the city. Um I first need to

1:24:20correct my response to a question asked

1:24:23by Councilman Sudler at the last

1:24:24meeting. The center did comply with the

1:24:27requirement to obtain a phase one

1:24:29environmental site assessment.

1:24:31With that clarified, I want to be

1:24:33equally clear about the scope of

1:24:35tonight's recommendation,

1:24:37which is strictly limited to whether the

1:24:39city should continue the environmental

1:24:41review process and move forward with

1:24:43releasing the $40,000 allocation for the

1:24:46workforce development renovations

1:24:48project.

1:24:49I won't um I won't uh express all of the

1:24:55other things that I had um planned on

1:24:57doing. But in for brevity um since my

1:25:00presentation on the 29th of September,

1:25:03I've identified two additional concerns.

1:25:06One is regarding the contractor

1:25:08identified in this reimbursement

1:25:09request. The contract is with MFI

1:25:12Construction Services. in an internet

1:25:15search. The business is not licensed in

1:25:17the state with or with the city. It's

1:25:20also not a registered contractor and the

1:25:22phone number has been disconnected.

1:25:25Um, the other concern that I have is

1:25:27that the organization, People's

1:25:29Community Center, has now publicly

1:25:31stated that it does not intend to pursue

1:25:33the conditional use approval necessary

1:25:35to continue operating the overnight

1:25:37shelter. As a result, the shelter is not

1:25:41expected to operate this winter. The

1:25:43city has already made a substantial

1:25:45federal investment in renovations and

1:25:47shelter related improvements at the

1:25:49church as part of the ARPA funded

1:25:51renovation. Those improvements were

1:25:54connected to the intended use of the

1:25:55facility for shelter and services to

1:25:58people experiencing homeless

1:26:00homelessness.

1:26:01Now that the organization has stated

1:26:03that it doesn't intend to pursue the

1:26:05approval necessary to legally continue

1:26:07that operation, I have to ask, could the

1:26:10same thing happen with this $40,000

1:26:12allocation? I don't believe that's a

1:26:14question we can simply overlook.

1:26:17If this were only a question of one

1:26:19missing document, one procurement

1:26:20mistake, or one administrative error, I

1:26:23would not be bringing this presentation

1:26:25forward. The city's approach has not

1:26:27been to simply say no. As you can see,

1:26:30the city has worked to find a path

1:26:31forward. The record demonstrates

1:26:34repeated communications explaining

1:26:36requirements, requests for additional

1:26:38documentation, opportunities to correct

1:26:40sub submissions, and efforts to identify

1:26:43eligible costs and ways that activities

1:26:45could continue to be supported. While we

1:26:48can't undo past discrepancies and

1:26:50deficiencies, the level of concern that

1:26:52remains at this stage of the process

1:26:54compels us to pause and consider all the

1:26:56information we have in front of us. I

1:26:59stand by my recommendation and I'm happy

1:27:02to answer any questions.

1:27:12>> Any questions?

1:27:13>> No questions. But I just want to say I

1:27:15have read you. I read a lot.

1:27:19You you were a very good author. Let me

1:27:21put it to you as the way I spent a lot

1:27:23of time with you over this weekend.

1:27:25>> Thank you. I I yield.

1:27:30>> I don't see any further questions. Thank

1:27:32you, Miss O'Brien, for your

1:27:33presentation.

1:27:34>> Thank you.

1:27:37>> The chair will um

1:27:41recognize Miss Harris to uh come back to

1:27:43the council with those um missing

1:27:45elements.

1:27:49>> Sue Harris,

1:27:51coordinator of People's Community

1:27:52Center. First, I want to tell you talked

1:27:54with Senator Bucksen about the Morris

1:27:56Correctional years ago. I am thrilled

1:27:59that that that is coming in place and I

1:28:01think that's one of the best choices you

1:28:03could find here. So, we are in full

1:28:04support of that. Um, to bring up just to

1:28:07answer that before I even get started

1:28:09here, the overnight shelter is the least

1:28:11favorite of anything that we do there.

1:28:13It takes up four months and it takes

1:28:16everything out of all of us. We do so

1:28:19much in the community center that is not

1:28:21involved with the just the specific

1:28:23overnight shelter. We have people up to

1:28:26100 people come in and out of our

1:28:28building a day from the dinners, the

1:28:30free store, um the the counseling that

1:28:34we do, the help that we have that gets

1:28:36people taken into detox. Um we've got

1:28:39the showers that people can take. We've

1:28:41got clothes for them, toiletries, food.

1:28:44So, we're working with people all day

1:28:47and into the evening. So, the overnight

1:28:49piece, we are thrilled to have that

1:28:52taken. My problem was that there wasn't

1:28:54going to be any other solution. And when

1:28:57that was going to be a problem, that's

1:28:59what we weren't going to be able to

1:29:00handle. We are equipped to do it. And if

1:29:03nobody else was going to step up, we had

1:29:05no choice. So, I am thrilled and we will

1:29:07do anything we can to help get a new

1:29:09site set up for that. So, as much as I

1:29:12hope we recover our spent funds, I'm

1:29:15really here and most concerned to

1:29:17correct our sullied reputation regarding

1:29:20our financial responsibility.

1:29:22We are grateful for all of the years and

1:29:24cooperation and collaboration we and the

1:29:26other churches have had with the city

1:29:27over the past decade. Thank you for your

1:29:30years of partially funding our

1:29:32operations with ARPA and CDBG federal

1:29:35passrough funds. Not city funds, ARPA

1:29:39and CDBG passrough funds. Some people

1:29:41seem to be confused about that. We

1:29:43appreciate the hard work and intelligent

1:29:45Mrs. O'Brien. We do wish that elected

1:29:47officials would allow her to do her work

1:29:49without the political pressure. We are

1:29:52committed to complying in all ways with

1:29:54federal and state statute and procedures

1:29:56that we can work together with

1:29:58neighbors, businesses, and other

1:29:59churches and government to help get

1:30:01people off the streets. After review of

1:30:03the documents before you, our own

1:30:05records and the documents set to us in

1:30:08the foyer responses, it appears that we

1:30:10have indeed been compliant with a few

1:30:12exceptions. We did fail to submit the

1:30:15required report as requested, the final

1:30:18report I handed to Miss O'Brien when I

1:30:20came in here this evening. There is no

1:30:22way to rectify the fact that that was

1:30:24not submitted in a timely manner. Our

1:30:26inability to access any instructions

1:30:29prohibited prohibited proper reporting.

1:30:32And it wasn't until about two weeks ago

1:30:34that we received the blank report that

1:30:36was sent to us to be completed. The

1:30:38other issue we can't resolve is the fact

1:30:40that we used federal requirements for

1:30:43procurement, not the cities. Without any

1:30:46clear instructions, we defaulted to the

1:30:48federal regulations and that was

1:30:50evidently incorrect. By the time we

1:30:52understood the problem, it's a done

1:30:54deal. The city's normal procedure of

1:30:57only paying for grants as reimbursements

1:30:59and only after examining documents for

1:31:01compliance and consistency with the

1:31:04contract has ensured that you have not

1:31:06reimbursed us for any funds which were

1:31:08not determined by your staff to be

1:31:10appropriate consistent with applicable

1:31:13statute and ordinance and established

1:31:15procedures at the time. We had no reason

1:31:18to question our guidance. We appreciate

1:31:20Miss O'Brien's painstaking review of the

1:31:23past and present rest subreient

1:31:24agreements and payments, but it appears

1:31:27that there were a number of factual

1:31:29errors in the pre previous presentation

1:31:32to this body. We ask therefore that you

1:31:34consider only the facts at hand, not the

1:31:37spirious, complex, nefarious and

1:31:38intersecting motivations that sometime

1:31:41cloud city council judgment. Now onto

1:31:43the matter at hand. the renovations that

1:31:46have been completed completed downstairs

1:31:49in the neighbors in need area of the

1:31:51People's Church Community Center. We

1:31:53have had architectural and engineering

1:31:55plans for a fourstory building,

1:31:58including all phases of renovation from

1:32:00basement to elevator, $150,000.

1:32:03We've redone 6,000 square foot of new

1:32:06flooring. We've painted all basement

1:32:08walls. We've renovated a fully permitted

1:32:10commercial kitchen to include all new

1:32:13NSF commercial grade appliances,

1:32:15shelving, and workt for $94,232

1:32:19that the ARPA one paid for. We added

1:32:22three additional bathrooms, three shower

1:32:24rooms, three a laundry room with two

1:32:27sets of washer and dryers. We've

1:32:29renovated an old janitorial work area

1:32:31and secured storage room. We installed a

1:32:34fire suppression system, a sprinkler

1:32:36system throughout the full basement and

1:32:38passed to the outside exits on the first

1:32:40floor. Total cost of that was 125,000.

1:32:44ARPA paid 59714

1:32:46out of ARPA 1. That completed ARPA 1. No

1:32:50new lighting around the entire building,

1:32:52cameras, and electronic door security.

1:32:54Demolition of 125year-old bowling alley

1:32:57to convert into workforce development

1:32:59and readiness offices. The demolition is

1:33:02complete. It was one heck of a job. If

1:33:05you've ever seen a 125y old bowling

1:33:07alley installed before power tools were

1:33:10invented, you can understand the trouble

1:33:13we had. The construction has not been

1:33:15completed yet. The bowling alley

1:33:17renovation was a total of the whole

1:33:19balloon alley renovation is a total of

1:33:21$200,000.

1:33:22The $40,000 that we had for from the uh

1:33:26CDBG is now on hold. We've completed an

1:33:29HVAC replacement buildingwide, all four

1:33:32floors, a total project of $1.1 million.

1:33:36They will be completed in December this

1:33:39year according to the time of

1:33:41performance signed in the contract with

1:33:43People's Church of Dover. All ARPA

1:33:46contracts extend December 31st of 2026.

1:33:51So, our warper one contract done the

1:33:54commercial kitchen and the sprinkler

1:33:56system. ARPA 2

1:33:5963,288

1:34:01proposed for salaries, maintenance,

1:34:03utility paid for in full. We get a

1:34:06letter

1:34:07from Tracy Harvey telling us how happy

1:34:10she is with us. They came out in uh

1:34:12August 7th, monitored it, and they

1:34:15awarded our awards were shown to be in

1:34:18compliance. But I'm very pleased with

1:34:20the renovations completed at the shelter

1:34:22to ensure the safety of the homeless.

1:34:24And so both those grants completed,

1:34:26monitored, paid for, and checked off. In

1:34:302025, we get a call from the city that

1:34:32there's ARPA funds that another

1:34:33organization is not able to spend. They

1:34:36had it in 20 got it in 22. They couldn't

1:34:39spend it. They suggested we take it

1:34:40because we know what we're doing with

1:34:41our money. City also agreed with that.

1:34:44So they called and said, "Can you please

1:34:46take this $63,000

1:34:48because we need it spent fast and we

1:34:49know you can do it." So we went ahead,

1:34:52we accepted the money. That took care of

1:34:54paying for salaries, CS, bank, bunk

1:34:56beds. We still have about 17,000 left

1:34:58that we can put in for reimbursement

1:35:00because again, that doesn't end till

1:35:02December 31st of 26.

1:35:05The FE the FE FY25 CDBG 40,000 for

1:35:09renovations, we all know where that

1:35:11sits. and the 22,000 for operations is

1:35:14also pending. So in total we got 277,941

1:35:20in ARPA money, 62,700

1:35:23in CDBG money of which 40,000 is being

1:35:27withheld. So we've got about a million

1:35:30half dollar projects all total that ARPA

1:35:34and CDBG have donated about $340,000

1:35:38for the rest of it. majority of it has

1:35:42come from our pockets, our congregation.

1:35:44So the idea that we did not put in our

1:35:47portion is extremely not true.

1:35:52When the FY25 CDBG award was issued and

1:35:55the subreient contract was signed, the

1:35:58city's community development manager was

1:35:59Tracy Harvey. She told us that we must

1:36:02fulfill federal compliance standards

1:36:04rather than those standards if the money

1:36:06were from the city budget. CDBG money is

1:36:10federal money. The federal requirement,

1:36:12she said, was that the awards over the

1:36:14amount of 50,000 required that three

1:36:16bids be submitted. Since our award money

1:36:18was only 40,000, three bids would not be

1:36:21required. We did nonetheless consult

1:36:24with three contractors. The first two

1:36:26who looked at the Becker Morgan plans

1:36:29that we paid for in 22 chose not to bid

1:36:33because it was a heck of a project. So,

1:36:35we turned to the development director of

1:36:37the downtown do partnership to ask for a

1:36:39recommendation. He recommended Amber

1:36:42Eper of MFI Construction. We signed a

1:36:45contract with her and made two initial

1:36:47payments totaling approximately 53,000.

1:36:50We submitted a contract and proof of

1:36:52payment to Mrs. O'Brien in the spring of

1:36:5426 and requested reimbursement. None was

1:36:58made. After requesting reimbursement,

1:37:00Mrs. O'Brien asked us to send her a

1:37:03letter explaining why we did not have

1:37:04the three bids and how we selected MFI.

1:37:07We did send such an explanation and in

1:37:10her timeline, Mrs. O'Brien acknowledged

1:37:12having received it. When she and Mrs.

1:37:15O'Brien conducted their visit in the

1:37:16fall of 25, Miss Harvey explained that

1:37:19we would be held to the federal

1:37:20standards of compliance, which required

1:37:23lead paint testing and abatement if

1:37:24necessary. and a tier one environmental

1:37:27review. She stated that those services

1:37:29would be paid by the CDBG award of

1:37:3240,000. The work was performed in a

1:37:35timely fashion in November and December

1:37:37of 25, only two months after the

1:37:39subreient agreed agreement was signed.

1:37:42Cover letter and re reimbursement

1:37:44requests were submitted to the city as

1:37:46proof of payment. The city is now

1:37:49required to reimburse people's community

1:37:51center for 17,100 for those

1:37:54expenditures. No bid was involved in the

1:37:57lead abatement.

1:37:59The city is also obligated to reimburse

1:38:01people's community center 22,900,

1:38:04a portion of the 53,000 that we spent

1:38:07for the demolition that would take them

1:38:09up to the award of 40,000.

1:38:12The city employee signed the award

1:38:13letter, was satisfied, reimbured the

1:38:15money spent, and issued a letter in

1:38:17which he confirmed they were fully in

1:38:19compliant, thanked us for our service.

1:38:22The HVAC renovation also cost far more

1:38:25than anticipated. The congregation has

1:38:27paid Diamond Engineering to complete the

1:38:29work in the amount of $1.1 million.

1:38:32Thus, the congregation did complete its

1:38:34part of the agreement to spend at least

1:38:36153,978

1:38:39in matching funds. All these

1:38:41expenditures and work will be completed

1:38:43prior to the time of the performance

1:38:45date on page two of the subreient

1:38:48agreement between the city of Dover and

1:38:51People's Church of Dover. Not Community

1:38:53Center, Church of Dover. In 22, there

1:38:55was no community center. Services of the

1:38:58subreient shall start on the 27th day of

1:39:00April, 2022, and end on the 31st day of

1:39:04December, 2026.

1:39:09reports, procurement, and end of

1:39:11contract requirements are vital aspects

1:39:12of any grant. In my career, I managed 19

1:39:16different federal, state, and local

1:39:17grants per year for 30 years worth well

1:39:20over hund00 million. And grant

1:39:22applications always, without exception,

1:39:26include detailed instructions of what

1:39:28the reporting, procurement, and document

1:39:31retention requirements are. Most of the

1:39:34time it's part of the RFP so the

1:39:36potential grantees can decide if they

1:39:37have the capacity to fulfill these

1:39:40requirements before they even apply

1:39:43for these city managed federal grants.

1:39:44I've been unable to find these

1:39:46instructions anywhere certainly not

1:39:48attached to the application. The

1:39:50instructions I am able to find to

1:39:52understand how to manage these federal

1:39:54funds is on the federal CDBG website

1:39:57where their procurement requirements

1:39:59clearly state that the bids required for

1:40:00any project over 50,000.

1:40:03We obviously unders understood that

1:40:05requirement because we received three

1:40:07bids for our kitchen project in 2022.

1:40:11The fact that Mrs. O'Brien uses the city

1:40:13procurement threshold of 10,000 should

1:40:16have been clearly explained and included

1:40:18in the instructions for reporting and

1:40:19procurement requirements along with the

1:40:22application [clears throat]

1:40:24with no guidance available in the

1:40:26paperwork and online. We defaulted to

1:40:28the federal guidelines.

1:40:30Yes, there are inevitable changes to

1:40:32timelines and specifics from the

1:40:34original application when you're working

1:40:36with competitive grants that might not

1:40:38be successful. There was never a change

1:40:41of focus of the homeless shelter

1:40:43operations and renovations of the space

1:40:45to be used for the homeless services.

1:40:48In 2022, we were still dealing with

1:40:50COVID contractors with difficult find.

1:40:53Delays happened regularly and prices

1:40:55skyrocketed. So, he had to be flexible.

1:40:58Also, in the grant world, although you

1:40:59might list a funding opportunity on a

1:41:01grant application, there is no guarantee

1:41:03you'll be successful. When you aren't

1:41:06successful, you have to be able to

1:41:07pivot, realign your priorities, go back

1:41:10to your backup plan to proceed. For

1:41:12instance, if you lose your funding for

1:41:14demolition, but receive your funding for

1:41:16construction, you probably have to pivot

1:41:18and make adjustments. It doesn't change

1:41:20the project, but it does affect your

1:41:21timing and progress. The hesitation and

1:41:24unjustified accusations cause upcoming

1:41:27funders to hesitate, and many deny

1:41:30funding that had previously been

1:41:31unquestioned. [clears throat]

1:41:33Because of these bogus accusations, if

1:41:36funders worry that the city would not

1:41:38allow our program to continue, why would

1:41:40they want to send us money? These

1:41:43complaints continued to grow out of

1:41:44control without any backlash from the

1:41:46city. Even city officials said harsh,

1:41:49unfounded things without any evidence or

1:41:51investigation.

1:41:53City officials have since admitted none

1:41:55of the complaints were applicable to us.

1:41:57Yeah, that came from city officials at a

1:41:59meeting. None of these complaints were

1:42:01anything we could do anything about. All

1:42:03this caused politicians to retreat and

1:42:05is in one instance, Senator Parard

1:42:08changed course and denied our homeless

1:42:10services grant and aid funding. Yes,

1:42:12they received we received our children's

1:42:14program funding that we have counted on

1:42:16for years for operations. So to be

1:42:19clear, up until mid June, we were still

1:42:21expecting this promised source of

1:42:23funding. This was a source of funding

1:42:25that we have documented on other grants

1:42:26and applications as is common practice

1:42:29when applications are pending. It is

1:42:31generally asked when an application is

1:42:33submitted if other funding sources are

1:42:35submitted, pending, awarded or received.

1:42:39A project timeline needs to be fairly

1:42:41flexible as long as you are staying

1:42:42within the grant period. Sometime there

1:42:45needs to be adjustments to the projects

1:42:46according to the funding opportunities

1:42:48that are successful. Sometimes you find

1:42:51out that you need environmental studies

1:42:53done and that a portion of your award

1:42:55has to go towards that unexpected

1:42:57expense and you then have to make

1:42:59adjustments in the budget and the

1:43:01timeline.

1:43:03These are the sort of things that can

1:43:04change your timeline and add expenses

1:43:06that were not included in your original

1:43:07budget and adjust some expectations. But

1:43:11one thing never changed is the focus and

1:43:13the objectives that we are trying to

1:43:15meet with this proposal. Meeting the

1:43:18CDBG objectives is not of any concern

1:43:21either, as was mentioned many times in

1:43:23this attempt to find issues.

1:43:26The operations grant complies with

1:43:28570.208

1:43:30A2IA and 570.201E

1:43:33and the renovations grant complies with

1:43:36570.208818

1:43:40and 57201C.

1:43:42These objectives are thoroughly met with

1:43:44all aspects of our projects.

1:43:47So, in summary, the 2022 agreement was

1:43:50made with the church, not the community

1:43:52center. It is not appropriate to deny

1:43:54promised funding to one corporation

1:43:57because of a claim of non-compliance

1:43:59related to another corporation.

1:44:01The city's representative mailed us a

1:44:03letter in 23 in which she states that

1:44:06our contractual obligations were met and

1:44:08the agreement is now fulfilled.

1:44:10The church did in fact spend a million

1:44:12dollars more than it was required to

1:44:15spend according to the subreient

1:44:16agreement in facility renovations.

1:44:19The city therefore has no justification

1:44:21to use this funding cycle performance as

1:44:24an excuse to deny its contractual

1:44:26obligations to the community center

1:44:28under its 2025 agreement. Be happy to

1:44:31take some questions and I have some

1:44:33papers to hand out to everyone.

1:44:36>> Thank you for your presentation, Miss

1:44:37Harris. Um, chair recognizes

1:44:39Councilwoman Art.

1:44:42>> I have a follow-up question for Miss

1:44:43Harris, so I'll wait until she's ready.

1:45:24Yes,

1:45:27>> thank you, Miss Harris. Um, I just want

1:45:29to clarify a few things. I think there's

1:45:31been a lot of

1:45:33misunderstanding on both sides and um, I

1:45:36think we can do a better job of learning

1:45:39from past mistakes and making sure that

1:45:41we have those open lines of

1:45:42communication. Um,

1:45:45in March when we reviewed a proposal for

1:45:4830 $36,000 for the workforce development

1:45:52program, um, as you know, we we denied

1:45:54that application, there was a lot of

1:45:57angst and anger and um, press coverage

1:46:00that I thought was erroneous. Um, when I

1:46:04voted in the negative to to deny that

1:46:07application, it was based on the merits

1:46:09of the application. I did not feel that

1:46:11the workforce development program

1:46:14demonstrated sustainability over time.

1:46:17Um the way it was um proposed, most of

1:46:21the funding seemed to be coming from the

1:46:22city. It wasn't demonstrated where the

1:46:25other funds were coming. Um

1:46:28typically when issuing a a grant, I'm

1:46:30not comfortable with issuing seed money

1:46:33for a program without understanding that

1:46:35program is going to continue. um I'm

1:46:37more comfortable with issuing money for

1:46:39a capital improvement um that you can

1:46:41see those receipts and and it moves

1:46:43forward. So, just to clarify um my

1:46:46decision on that was based on the grant

1:46:48application, not in any way, shape or

1:46:50form on the performance or the the

1:46:52issues or concerns about about the

1:46:54homeless shelter. I have not wanted to

1:46:57see the shelter closed. I think that the

1:46:59service that they perform perform is is

1:47:02necessary. Um I understand the

1:47:04neighborhood's complaints. Um certainly

1:47:07I would like to see the shelter operated

1:47:09in a way that it is

1:47:12peacefully within the neighborhood and

1:47:14the um the operations are cohesive and

1:47:16the neighbors are happy. I'm surprised

1:47:19to hear you say that

1:47:22you do not want to operate the shelter

1:47:24and that you are okay with not pursuing

1:47:27the conditional use to continue to open

1:47:30the shelter. Could you because last

1:47:33night we took a lot of heat from the

1:47:35public um that you know the city had had

1:47:38done all these bad terrible things to

1:47:40shut the shelter down but it sounds like

1:47:43the shelter did not want to continue

1:47:44operating and you had the opportunity to

1:47:47do the conditional use to continue those

1:47:49operations but that that did not occur.

1:47:52So you could expand on that.

1:47:54>> I will for sure give a little history.

1:47:56The only reason that we're any kind of a

1:47:58shelter whatsoever is because of the

1:48:00>> I'm sorry

1:48:02is because of um the original history

1:48:05when it all was we were cycling from

1:48:07place to place to place and that was

1:48:09fine and we were happy and everybody's

1:48:10happy. COVID came, every other church

1:48:13backed out, all other volunteers backed

1:48:15out. They happened to be in our building

1:48:16when it when COVID shut down. So we kind

1:48:19of there's nothing we going to do at

1:48:20this point and so we accommodated.

1:48:24The next year comes up, no churches. So

1:48:26for the next two or three years, we just

1:48:28slowly kind of became the emergency

1:48:30shelter on our own, taking on all that

1:48:33with no funding. It's hard. It is not

1:48:35our favorite piece. It's the one piece

1:48:37that causes us more issues than

1:48:39anything. We have so much more we would

1:48:41like to do to get people off of the

1:48:43streets and to and to to give them paths

1:48:46into a better future. And it seems like

1:48:49to be constantly tangled up in this,

1:48:52we're just throwing sandwiches at people

1:48:53and clothes and just saying, you know,

1:48:55keep it moving. And that's really not

1:48:57where we want to be. Um, we don't there

1:48:59should not be any more shelters

1:49:01established because that's just like

1:49:02putting chairs in the emergency room of

1:49:04a hospital. We need transitional

1:49:06housing. We need more housing for

1:49:08people, you know, affordable housing.

1:49:10So, um I I'm not in any way a proponent

1:49:13proponent for more sheltering, but

1:49:15emergency sheltering in this town is

1:49:18zero zilch to none. You got the women

1:49:20going down division street in Marinana

1:49:23and you got us. That's what the problem

1:49:25was. If there had been right off the

1:49:28get-go, hey, we got a better idea than

1:49:30what people's church has. I've already

1:49:32met with Matt Heckle from the Sheran.

1:49:34Nobody else seemed to have any ingenuity

1:49:37to do this. I got a hold of him. He and

1:49:39I met. I pleaded with him. I said, "We

1:49:41got CS. We got bedding. I got

1:49:42volunteers. I'll help you get it set up.

1:49:45This drags us down. Everybody back here,

1:49:48they just want the folks to have a place

1:49:50to go." It isn't personal to coming to

1:49:53us. They love everything else we do. We

1:49:55want to continue to do all those

1:49:57wonderful things. But the idea that our

1:49:59overnight might go somewhere else, I've

1:50:02pleaded with the Salvation Army. Senator

1:50:04Bucks and I tried to find to get away

1:50:06just for overflow because we were up to

1:50:0880 people at one point. I had women in

1:50:11the building and I couldn't. That's was

1:50:12before the women's shelter opened. So,

1:50:15we've never pleaded to be a shelter. I

1:50:17never set out to be. We never applied to

1:50:19be. We don't want to put in a variance

1:50:21because we've never had to. It's part of

1:50:24the consolidated plan for the city of

1:50:26Dover. It's always been an agreement

1:50:28that when this and this is all over the

1:50:30state. The fire marshal has a state fire

1:50:32marshal code purple directive that opens

1:50:35up nonconforming places for just these

1:50:38emergencies. It makes no sense to put

1:50:41the city staff through thousands of

1:50:43dollars of staff time. The months and

1:50:45months it takes and if it depends on a

1:50:48neighborhood public hearing, we're

1:50:50probably going to suffer a and probably

1:50:52won't even be successful for what. And

1:50:55then that all that talks about is

1:50:57changing what our um building use is.

1:51:01And now all of a sudden we can be a

1:51:03shelter. I don't want that fight. I'm

1:51:06told I can't tell you how many times a

1:51:08day somebody asked me, "Why can't you

1:51:09just be a shelter all year long?" No. No

1:51:12thank you. And we don't want to be

1:51:14permitted to be able to be. And if we go

1:51:16through all that process, I lose that

1:51:18argument, too. So, no, we want to be an

1:51:20emergency shelter if there is no other

1:51:23options. We worked with the other

1:51:26options when there was some. I've gone

1:51:28out myself to find other options because

1:51:30it's overwhelming. We're only supposed

1:51:32to have we've got space really for 30

1:51:35guys. Never do we have less than 50 or

1:51:3860. They come from the woodwork. So, we

1:51:42Morris Correctional could not be a more

1:51:44perfect place. When we heard a couple

1:51:46years ago it was going to be used for

1:51:47training, they wouldn't do it. I got a

1:51:49couple couple people related in

1:51:51Department of Corrections, you know, it

1:51:53probably won't work. I hope so much.

1:51:55It's got rooms, kitchens, showers,

1:51:57everything that we would need. It's in a

1:51:59good location. I really hope that works.

1:52:01But the bottom line is we would not be

1:52:04able to live with ourselves if people

1:52:06are freezing to death on our sidewalk

1:52:08and we have a room to put them in and cs

1:52:11and all this. So the fight is that we

1:52:13want the homeless folks to have

1:52:15somewhere to go this winter. We do we

1:52:17don't want they're not our homeless

1:52:19folks. We're not trying to keep them. We

1:52:22would love for someone else to take over

1:52:24for a while and do this emergency

1:52:26sheltering. We would absolutely keep

1:52:28doing it forever if nobody comes up with

1:52:32anything more. But until then, we want

1:52:35to concentrate on a lot of this good

1:52:37stuff. The good stuff that the neighbors

1:52:39like us for. We've tried very hard to

1:52:41work with the neighbors. We we put names

1:52:42on the to-go containers and everybody

1:52:44knew we find this in the trash, you're

1:52:46not allowed in anymore. I mean, we've

1:52:48we've really tried. We It's hard to tell

1:52:51these people what to do. They don't

1:52:52really listen. We've asked, we requested

1:52:54if we see them dealing, they're not

1:52:56allowed in. Yes, we do feed the

1:52:58prostitutes. Sorry. These girls walk

1:53:01around with an ATM machine on their body

1:53:04and can do what they do 247 and they

1:53:07will die if we don't do something

1:53:09drastic for them. Just saying it. So I'm

1:53:12sorry I Right. And as far as

1:53:14sustainability, we did receive we have

1:53:17been awarded 350,000 from opioids

1:53:20because of all of the hullaloo and then

1:53:22worried that we'd even have a place.

1:53:24It's pending. We've had a meeting with

1:53:26Brad. Everybody's cool. He's happy. So

1:53:29that money's coming. We've had some

1:53:31DuPont money come in. The Welf

1:53:33Foundation money come in. We're

1:53:35sustainable. We've got no problem with

1:53:37that. We've got Harold Stafford is

1:53:39running our workforce development. He's

1:53:41a secretary of former secretary of labor

1:53:44for the state of Delaware. He's been on

1:53:46Polytech school board. I've known him

1:53:47for years and years and I've got a close

1:53:49connection with Polytech. I worked there

1:53:5130 years. We'll have a good program

1:53:53going. First thing we need to do though

1:53:54is workforce readiness. I've done this

1:53:57my whole life as far as adult education.

1:53:59I've backed them down. Our people got to

1:54:01start with readiness before we get into

1:54:02development. So, we're making sure

1:54:04everybody has the documentation and and

1:54:07all that kind of stuff. And they've been

1:54:08through rehabs and detox and whatever

1:54:10they need, mental health issues to get

1:54:12stable enough to even begin that

1:54:14process. And that's all part of what

1:54:15we're going to do, navigation. So, the

1:54:17sustainability, we have the 350 coming

1:54:19in. We've just been awarded a half a

1:54:22year ago that 100,000 from welfare. And

1:54:24we've got hopefully other things that

1:54:27will come back on board once the things

1:54:29settle down and people understand what

1:54:31we are doing and what we aren't doing

1:54:33and that we are extremely financially

1:54:36um responsible for our funds. When I

1:54:39retired six years ago, I was not going

1:54:41to touch another calculator or a

1:54:43spreadsheet. I lived that was my life

1:54:45for 30 years. I'm vice president of code

1:54:48purple as well. I am very sorry that I

1:54:51made that commitment to myself because I

1:54:53now am working with a second

1:54:55organization that I do believe that my

1:54:56skills in bookkeeping and accounting

1:54:59would have paid off highly. So that will

1:55:01change and I will be responsible for

1:55:03maintaining the management of all of our

1:55:05grants. Um he'll do the writing because

1:55:08he writes them good, but I'll manage

1:55:10them.

1:55:10>> I think maybe you should have written

1:55:12that last GR grant application. I may

1:55:14have had a different thought process

1:55:15with that information. Um, thank thank

1:55:18you for

1:55:18>> something I can

1:55:20>> thank you for that information. I I

1:55:22appreciate that. I hope moving forward

1:55:24we can change the narrative um that the

1:55:27city is trying to shut down the shelter

1:55:29and that the city doesn't care um

1:55:33working together to find a better

1:55:35solution.

1:55:36>> We really want to do that. We want to

1:55:38partner. We always have. The last thing

1:55:40it helps anybody in these streets is to

1:55:42find the people that they count on

1:55:44fighting amongst themselves. I mean they

1:55:47they got no hope then they're like well

1:55:48what's if they can't even get along and

1:55:50work together then what do we have? So

1:55:53please I mean I apologize for anything I

1:55:55might have said that have caused more

1:55:57eruption than it should but I think that

1:55:58happened on both sides. Things got out

1:56:01of here that got all stirred up and

1:56:02things got out of us that got all

1:56:04stirred up and now it's just a whole big

1:56:05old stirred up pot.

1:56:08Like I said, I think there's been

1:56:09misunderstandings and misinformation on

1:56:11both sides, and I think moving forward,

1:56:13um, making sure that we correct those

1:56:16misconceptions and work together. Um,

1:56:19>> thank you.

1:56:20>> I I am leaning towards giving grace and

1:56:24allowing this funding to to move

1:56:27forward. Um,

1:56:31I I know that's probably not where my my

1:56:34colleagues are are going. Um, but the

1:56:36work has already been done. Um, and I

1:56:40think moving forward, should you apply

1:56:42for any other funding from the city, I

1:56:44think lessons have been learned

1:56:45>> big time.

1:56:46>> And um, should funds be granted for any

1:56:52grant in the future, then I I think you

1:56:54would be well aware of what those

1:56:57requirements are and to make sure that

1:56:59every eye is dotted and every tea is

1:57:01crossed. questions will be asked from

1:57:03day one to make sure everyone is clear.

1:57:06>> So that that's for my colleagues. That's

1:57:08that's where I'm I'm leading and I will

1:57:10yield.

1:57:11>> The chair will recognize Mr. Mayor.

1:57:15>> Miss Harris. Thank you. I'd like to ask

1:57:17Mr. O'Brien to step to the podium again,

1:57:20please.

1:57:29Mr. So, Brian, you uh are relatively new

1:57:33on the job. However,

1:57:38I'm going to ask you a hard question.

1:57:40You followed the instructions that you

1:57:42were trained to do and the instructions

1:57:44that were before you uh to provide for

1:57:47reimbursement for these grants.

1:57:50>> Yes.

1:57:51The second question, did any member of

1:57:54council or myself influence you any way

1:57:56or the other in your presentation or

1:58:00your decision to bring this to council?

1:58:02>> No.

1:58:04>> I yield, Madam Chair.

1:58:07>> Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Thank you, Miss

1:58:09Chair recognizes Councilman Anderson.

1:58:13>> Thank you, Madam Chair, and I want to

1:58:16thank everyone for the information. I uh

1:58:22definitely support uh uh you you can

1:58:26stay please because I had a couple of

1:58:28questions. I definitely supported uh

1:58:31Miss O'Brien freezing the funds until

1:58:34she got the information that she needed

1:58:37that was appropriate.

1:58:39Um now now we've moved beyond that and

1:58:43the decision before us. Um, I do not

1:58:47support reprogramming the money because

1:58:50this organization

1:58:52quite frankly has been one of the better

1:58:54ones. Um, and in what it's done for the

1:58:58city and and in the city and it's um and

1:59:03I have just a couple questions. a lot of

1:59:06them uh my questions my colleague and

1:59:09friend uh has already asked them so I'm

1:59:11not going to repeat hers because she did

1:59:13them probably better than I would have.

1:59:16Um Miss Harris um I my quest first

1:59:20question is uh to the best of your

1:59:24knowledge are you now currently um

1:59:28compliant with city uh uh regulations?

1:59:32>> Yes. Uh next question. Now those those

1:59:38uh requirements that you that were met,

1:59:41were they federally compliant? Even if

1:59:45they inadvertently did not uh meet the

1:59:48city purchasing, are they federally

1:59:50compliant and eligible under federal

1:59:52guidelines for reimbursement?

1:59:54>> Yes.

1:59:56>> Okay. And that uh determines u my vote.

2:00:01Thank you. I yield, Madam Chair.

2:00:04>> Don't go too far.

2:00:09>> Chair recognizes Councilwoman Art.

2:00:11>> Thank you. I just I was remiss. I I

2:00:13would like to clarify. Miss O'Brien,

2:00:15thank you so much for your presentation,

2:00:17the information that you put together.

2:00:19Um we as council uh take a lot of heat

2:00:22for how we spend our money uh and the

2:00:25money that we allocate and distribute.

2:00:27And I think there is absolutely no

2:00:29question that um you've got your eyes on

2:00:33the funding that that leaves out of your

2:00:35program and it will be spent the way it

2:00:37should be spent. So I appreciate your

2:00:38your work and your due diligence. Thank

2:00:40you.

2:00:45>> Do you guild councilwoman? Thank you.

2:00:47Miss Harris, I have one more question

2:00:48for you. I'm so sorry. I I wanted to

2:00:50stop you before you left, but I wanted

2:00:52you to take a break.

2:00:59I'm curious. Um there was uh something

2:01:02that was presented by Miss O'Brien that

2:01:04was troubling to me um regarding uh the

2:01:07$45,000

2:01:09that um doesn't seem to um have gone to

2:01:13a credible company. Can you um share

2:01:16anything?

2:01:17>> Seems to me Amber um seemed fine. She

2:01:19was recommended to us through the

2:01:21downtown do partnership developmental

2:01:24director. So, I got to note I'm going to

2:01:26go home and make sure that I call the

2:01:28pastor and make sure that we have those

2:01:29ducks in a row. I can't imagine she's

2:01:32not. She We have worked closely with her

2:01:34there while she's been working. So, I

2:01:36would be very surprised. Maybe there's a

2:01:38difference in name. Maybe something I'm

2:01:40thinking there's some confusion.

2:01:42>> Would you kindly um bring what your your

2:01:44findings are back to this council? I'm

2:01:47acutely interested in knowing um where

2:01:49those where those

2:01:51>> Mr. So Brian said it and I definitely

2:01:52would because if that's the case then we

2:01:55we're hoping for her to do more work for

2:01:57us and that would that would be a

2:01:59problem.

2:02:00>> Thank you. I'd be interested in hearing

2:02:01your findings and if and if you do um

2:02:03determine that this is not a credible

2:02:05company. I'd also like you to bring back

2:02:07um what your um accountability will be

2:02:10for those monies as well.

2:02:11>> Okay.

2:02:12>> Thank you very much.

2:02:12>> All right. Thank you.

2:02:17>> Okay. Um Mr. Foust is is here. Mr. FA,

2:02:20please come to the podium

2:02:23and give us your information.

2:02:26>> William Fover, just a comment. I don't

2:02:28know if you heard me say this last

2:02:30night, Miss Hall. Councilwoman Hall,

2:02:32Morris Correctional Center was closed by

2:02:35the DOC because of funding, but it was

2:02:37also closed. My my friends, my people I

2:02:40worked with worked there. The building

2:02:43was need of much

2:02:46upkeep,

2:02:47uh, water, electric, everything. So,

2:02:50Morris may not be suitable

2:02:53for housing the homeless because uh

2:02:55that's the reason I moved the offenders

2:02:57out because it wasn't going to be up to

2:02:59code. I believe Councilman uh Brian

2:03:02Lewis was working at that time for the

2:03:04Department of Corrections too. He can

2:03:06probably give us some light on it, but

2:03:08Morris was closed because it was not

2:03:10been able to bring up the standard. I

2:03:11think I thought it may have had

2:03:14asbestous and other issues and it has

2:03:16been long used for years. So, who knows

2:03:19how long it's going to take to retrofit

2:03:20and get that up. And the other comment,

2:03:22this is not a dig at the people's

2:03:24church. You know, if you're going to

2:03:26make an allowance for grant or mistakes,

2:03:29you open up Pandora's box. So, if you

2:03:31make an allowance now,

2:03:33if another person comes down lining, I

2:03:35made a mistake.

2:03:37You going to be obligated to give them a

2:03:39second bite of the apple or a third

2:03:41bite. So, this is not a dig at the

2:03:44church. I'm saying if you make an

2:03:46allowance, you already open up the door.

2:03:48You got to make allowance for anyone

2:03:49else that didn't read the application

2:03:52correctly or misread it or made a

2:03:54mistake or didn't make the filing time.

2:03:56So, be careful what you open the door

2:03:58for. I support the People's Church for

2:04:02trying to take care of our less our most

2:04:04vulnerable people. I'm not disputing

2:04:07that. But be careful. You represent us

2:04:10and this is not private donation. This

2:04:12is city money. So there's always checks

2:04:14and balances. So this is not a dig. It's

2:04:17just saying if you're going to make an

2:04:19allowance, be prepared to make allowance

2:04:21for

2:04:23individual 2, A, C, D, whatever it may

2:04:26be in the future. Thank you for your

2:04:28time.

2:04:28>> Thank you,

2:04:32>> Miss Bennett. You said there's someone

2:04:34online.

2:04:38Chair chair recognizes Shell Paul.

2:04:43Good evening Shell Paul do Delaware. Um

2:04:46I have a question for you because

2:04:49and the question would be for

2:04:52um

2:04:54the city. How much money exactly do we

2:04:58have invested

2:05:00in the people's church with regards to

2:05:04them

2:05:06having the emergency shelter? And the

2:05:08reason that I'm asking that question is

2:05:11if we've already poured so much money

2:05:13into it and we don't allow them and I

2:05:18understand that you have hiccups and and

2:05:20everybody does and when we make and when

2:05:23when there's issues and I'm in agreement

2:05:25what Mr. FA said with you know when you

2:05:28open up Pandora's box but you also have

2:05:30to think about being good stewards of

2:05:32the money that's already been spent. So,

2:05:34if we've already spent and invested that

2:05:37money into people's church and they're

2:05:39already

2:05:41servicing

2:05:43the unhoused in an emergency capacity,

2:05:47then

2:05:49those it's not going to change. That

2:05:52emergency is still going to be there

2:05:54whether they're open or not. And if we

2:05:56don't have the ability to get another

2:05:58facility open,

2:06:01I mean, we have we're talking about a

2:06:02month and a month and a week, maybe, you

2:06:05know, less than that, just depending on,

2:06:08you know, how Old Man Winner decides he

2:06:10wants to to fare.

2:06:13Does it make sense to take the money

2:06:15that we've already invested from

2:06:17taxpayer dollars, whether it be city

2:06:19money or whether it be federal, you

2:06:22know, the federal the state money,

2:06:23federal government, you know, federal

2:06:25funds. Does it make sense to take that

2:06:27money and let it go to waste because

2:06:30they ran into a hiccup or there's

2:06:32something? I mean, it sounds like to me

2:06:34that they have worked to get things done

2:06:39and maybe the person that was

2:06:41communicating the information wasn't,

2:06:44you know, the person that should have

2:06:46been communicating because everybody has

2:06:48their everybody has their jobs, you

2:06:50know, everybody has a function. Maybe

2:06:52the person that was functioning, you

2:06:54know, wasn't that wasn't their actual

2:06:57capacity and they were maybe filling in

2:06:58or maybe they needed, you know, maybe

2:07:00Miss Harris needed to be the one to

2:07:02speak and give that report or do be in

2:07:05communication with the person. All that

2:07:07make, you know, it would make sense to

2:07:09clean up the hiccup because you've

2:07:11already put so much money into it at

2:07:13this point. I mean, and that's just

2:07:15that's just me. I mean, am am I making

2:07:17sense?

2:07:21I am

2:07:24>> Debbie O'Brien. Um to answer your

2:07:27question, Miss Paul, we have invested

2:07:30$283,338

2:07:33in the um overnight sheltering. But to

2:07:37be clear, this this um project is for

2:07:40the renovations for the workforce

2:07:42development program, not for the

2:07:44homeless shelter.

2:07:47>> Okay. So,

2:07:49the money that you've invested,

2:07:52is that something that was needed in

2:07:54order for them to be in compliance? Um,

2:07:57you know, for what they're actually

2:07:59doing with regards to their cause, is

2:08:01that is that necessary for the shelter?

2:08:05I mean,

2:08:09>> that's not my decision.

2:08:12That would that be something that miss I

2:08:14mean is it something that's needed for

2:08:16the zoning? What what exactly? Because I

2:08:19mean

2:08:21>> I I apologize. I'm only representing the

2:08:24agreement that we had with the the

2:08:26community center.

2:08:29>> Okay.

2:08:32>> I can help answer that.

2:08:35>> Can can is she able to do that?

2:08:38>> Yeah. The 40,000 was for renovation for

2:08:40the bowling alley into the workforce

2:08:42development and readiness center. So it

2:08:44has absolutely nothing to do with our

2:08:46overnight shelter projects or um

2:08:49program. Most of the operational money

2:08:51that has come also from the CDBG and

2:08:54ARPA money were operations were for

2:08:57currently what we were doing paying for

2:08:58trash bags and supplies for the current

2:09:01running. So nothing that has been paid

2:09:03for was not services that haven't

2:09:06already been performed.

2:09:08So there again different kind of money.

2:09:10There's capital renovation money. That

2:09:12was the first ARPA grant. The second

2:09:14ARPA and the third ARPA were operational

2:09:17money. And this 40,000 that we're

2:09:20discussing now is renovation money.

2:09:22There's also 22,700 of that CDBG25

2:09:28money that is pending as well. No, we

2:09:31>> Okay. So let me ask can I ask you this?

2:09:33Can I ask you this question, Miss

2:09:34Harris? So with the workforce

2:09:37development,

2:09:38>> these things are all tools that you're

2:09:41using in conjunction with

2:09:44>> um the homeless and

2:09:48the the people that the people that are

2:09:50suffering from addiction. Are these all

2:09:52tools that you're using

2:09:55are all these

2:09:57are all the initiatives that you're that

2:09:59you're getting together right now, does

2:10:02it tie back into the same cause? Is it

2:10:04all to help the same cause? That's my

2:10:07question.

2:10:08>> It's all to serve low income, extra

2:10:12low-income, and homeless. Um the

2:10:15homeless, the overnight emergency

2:10:16homeless shelter would have been one

2:10:18aspect of that umbrella. So that that

2:10:21that doesn't all we continue to do all

2:10:23of those things even though we're not

2:10:26doing the overnight emergency sheltering

2:10:28for the four months in the winter. So

2:10:30that is kind of a separate thing. When

2:10:32we get money granted for that, it's for

2:10:35that time period only. It doesn't take

2:10:38care of the operations for the full year

2:10:39because we've got stuff going on in

2:10:41there all year long. So those are two

2:10:43very separate. We usually apply for

2:10:45those grants separately. Um as well as

2:10:47the separate grants for operations money

2:10:50and renovation money because that's two

2:10:52different kinds of buckets. And I I know

2:10:54you understand that.

2:10:56>> Yes, ma'am. I do. Um

2:10:58>> Okay.

2:11:00Okay. So, essentially

2:11:03you're so the overnight program, the

2:11:05emergency program is not going to is not

2:11:07going to reopen. Is that correct? Is

2:11:09that what I'm hearing?

2:11:11>> Um, unless the city comes to us with to

2:11:14continue the agreement we have been

2:11:16doing for the past 10 years and there is

2:11:19no other options available.

2:11:22Um, that would be the scenario I could

2:11:24see us continuing.

2:11:26>> Okay. So, so the city has it is the city

2:11:30in agreement cuz at this point I mean

2:11:32I'm just going to be honest as

2:11:34constituents in this commu uh that you

2:11:37know we we help in this community we

2:11:39advocate in this community. We want to

2:11:42know is there a concrete plan? Do we

2:11:45know for sure if there is no other

2:11:48options for these people to have

2:11:50shelter? Is the city willing to allow

2:11:53them to do the emergency sheltering?

2:11:56That is that's the key question. And I

2:11:59think question

2:12:02>> Yep. That's the million-dollar question.

2:12:03We are locked and ready.

2:12:06>> So everything we

2:12:08>> So you're kind

2:12:11>> We will not jeopardize our business

2:12:13license. We will not jeopardize our

2:12:14occupancy certificate. We have four wor

2:12:17worshiing bodies that make use of our

2:12:21building along with a wonderful

2:12:22afterchool program. There is nothing we

2:12:25will do that will jeopardize that. So

2:12:28shy of an agreement with the city we

2:12:30will not take any chances of them coming

2:12:32and shuttering our building. I'm hoping

2:12:34that the city if they are not able to

2:12:36find an alternative and we will help in

2:12:38any way to do that. The guy at the

2:12:40Sherton said maybe we might be able to

2:12:43open in the fall. There was an in. It

2:12:45wasn't a no. So, you guys should pursue

2:12:46that. Um, but yeah, if there's not

2:12:49another option, we What are we going to

2:12:52do? I'm not coming to to work in the

2:12:54free store and have to step over frozen

2:12:56bodies attached to the sidewalk. We will

2:12:58have to do something. And I hope that

2:13:00the city finds something, an

2:13:01alternative. And if that doesn't happen,

2:13:04the off-ramp is an agreement the same

2:13:06way we've done it for the past 10 years.

2:13:10>> All right. Thank you very much.

2:13:12Thank you.

2:13:14>> Miss Bonnie,

2:13:24>> please state your name for the record.

2:13:26>> Hi, my name is Bonnie. I live in the Do

2:13:28area. I don't know nothing about the

2:13:31People's Church. I have been learning

2:13:34all the good things that the people

2:13:36church has done for the homeless people.

2:13:38So, in my opinion, I listen to Mr. fowl

2:13:41behind us. If this building is that bad

2:13:44and they don't want to spend all this

2:13:47money to open up a new facility, what in

2:13:50the budget can you work out to give to

2:13:52the homeless or the people's church to

2:13:55keep the homeless open? Cuz I know for a

2:13:57fact last year there were three people

2:14:00that died in the city of Dover and it

2:14:04had nothing to do with drugs. They froze

2:14:05to death. My son used to be homeless for

2:14:09two years. He slept on the streets, in

2:14:11the streets, in the woods. We finally

2:14:14got him out of the woods and got him

2:14:16straightened. But the thing of it is

2:14:18sitting these people out on the street

2:14:20in the middle of winter and just to let

2:14:22Miss Paul know, next week it's supposed

2:14:24to be down in the 20s. So when these

2:14:27people out here sleeping in the street,

2:14:30we're sleeping in a bed. There's got to

2:14:32[clears throat] be a way to keep this

2:14:33people's church open. If you can come up

2:14:35with the funding to pay for something

2:14:38that we don't need, why can't you come

2:14:40up with the funding to keep this church

2:14:42open for these people? Like I said, I

2:14:46don't know the people's church. I don't

2:14:48live on that side of the area. I live on

2:14:50the north side. But I will say this,

2:14:53it's wrong to see these people sleep out

2:14:56on the street and only get a sandwich

2:14:59and a hot bowl of cereal and sending

2:15:01them out during the cold. That's just

2:15:03not fair. I agree. I think you guys

2:15:06could come up with a better way

2:15:08and squeeze that budget money cuz you

2:15:11squeezed it before to give to the

2:15:13people's church. That's all I have to

2:15:15say.

2:15:16>> Thank you, Miss Bonnie.

2:15:27>> Are there any other discussion?

2:15:33The chair will entertain a motion for

2:15:35the staff recommendation at this time.

2:15:40>> Move to accept staff recommendations

2:15:43to deny the funds to remove or or or

2:15:46retract the funds.

2:15:49>> Seconds.

2:15:51It

2:15:51>> has been properly moved and seconded. Is

2:15:53there any further discussion on the

2:15:54motion?

2:15:58>> Is this a roll call vote or is this

2:16:01Thank you. Would the city clerk please

2:16:04call the role?

2:16:05>> Sure. Mr. Boerty?

2:16:07>> Yes. For reasons stated previously.

2:16:09>> Mr. Anderson?

2:16:10>> No. For reasons stated.

2:16:13>> Dr. Pillsbury.

2:16:18>> I'm terribly undecided to be honest.

2:16:22I'll withdraw

2:16:24>> or abstain.

2:16:27>> Miss Art.

2:16:29>> No.

2:16:32Mr. Lewis is gone.

2:16:34Mr. Lewis.

2:16:36>> Yes.

2:16:38>> Council President Neil.

2:16:40>> Yes. And the reason for it is that's

2:16:42just not the church.

2:16:45Basically people who is in the area have

2:16:48come to us because of what has occurred

2:16:51in the area and it's what is drawn and I

2:16:55think the evidence is very clear in

2:16:57terms of both the police reports and the

2:17:00EMT reports of what has occurred. So

2:17:04it's not what's in the building, it's

2:17:06what the building basically attracts.

2:17:08And for that reason I'm saying yes

2:17:10withdrawal. Miss Hall,

2:17:16>> I'm terribly torn um with this. I

2:17:21[clears throat] I agree with Miss AR

2:17:23that there are um some

2:17:27some misgivings on both sides of this

2:17:29conversation. Um I also um am greatly

2:17:34troubled by the misappropriation of the

2:17:36monies. I do want to um understand

2:17:40better um what happened to that money.

2:17:44Um but uh I do also agree with Miss Paul

2:17:49that um we have invested heavily in the

2:17:52in the center at this point and that um

2:17:58this would be um a travesty for that not

2:18:01to be finished. And so for those

2:18:02reasons, I'm going to vote no.

2:18:12It's three yes, three nos, and then one

2:18:14abstension.

2:18:17>> So there's no no action.

2:18:19>> Motion fails.

2:18:21>> Passes.

2:18:22>> The motion fails.

2:18:24>> It fails.

2:18:27[clears throat]

2:18:28>> And that concludes the business of

2:18:31>> Madam Chairman.

2:18:31>> Yes. uh the the problem we have this is

2:18:35this is new money for workforce

2:18:38development. This has nothing to do with

2:18:41the emergency

2:18:42as uh as as Miss Harris has pointed out.

2:18:47They are open up depending upon

2:18:49agreement with the city. The city has

2:18:53reached out to their trustees and others

2:18:56to make sure that what has to be done

2:18:59has to be done. This is a story that

2:19:02nobody knows, but the fact is there has

2:19:05been a reach out by the city on a

2:19:08continual basis to see what we can do to

2:19:10help. That stands open and right now

2:19:14that this fa fails, but basically this

2:19:17is workforce development. It has nothing

2:19:20to do with the emergency. And it's from

2:19:23her lips that it has nothing to do with

2:19:26the emergency. If the city comes to them

2:19:29to open up those doors, they're saying

2:19:31they're willing to do so, but there has

2:19:34to be agreement. And the agreement

2:19:36includes the things that the city

2:19:39requires for them to do that they have

2:19:41not done at this time. I yield.

2:19:45>> Thank you, council president. That is

2:19:48the business of parks, recreation, and

2:19:50community enhancement committee. This

2:19:52committee stands in adjournment.

2:19:56Committee move is adjourned. No further

2:19:59business. This council as a whole has

2:20:01adjourned.