2026-11-03 - City Council

Good evening, everyone. I'd like to

remind everyone to please silence your

um and also remind you that council

meetings are live streamed on the city's

YouTube channel.

Uh I now call the November 3rd, 2026

regular council meeting to order. All

councilors are present. Please join me

in the Pledge of Allegiance.

>> The Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of

the United States of America

and to the Republic for which it stands,

one nation under God, indivisible,

liberty and justice for all.

>> Please read the consent minute approval

titles.

>> Approving the minutes of the October

20th, 2026 regular council meeting, the

Octo

ber 20th, 2026 executive session, and

the October 27th, 2026 special council

meeting.

>> Thank you. The chair would entertain a

motion to approve the consent minute

action agenda items just read.

By Councilor McIntosh, seconded by

Councilor Bond. Any abstentions or nay

votes? Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Chair would entertain a motion to

approve by minute action the November

3rd, 2026 bills and claims as audited by

city manager Jordan.

Moved by Councilor Haskins, seconded by

Councilor Sweeney. Any abstentions?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Now is the time that we invite anyone in

the audience who wishes to speak to the

council to come forward. This is the

portion of the meeting that is dedicated

uh to the public to allow them time to

discuss matters of public interest and

to voice any concerns.

Uh we do ask that you please state your

name, all your questions and comments to

the mayor. No personal uh obscenities or

threats will be tolerated. Council will

not respond to any personnel matters.

Those will all be referred to our city

manager. Councilors may ask clarifying

questions, but if they choose to respond

to matters, they will do so during the

scheduled council response time

following communications from persons

present.

Presentations are limited to 5 minutes

and no duplication of speaker excuse me

and no time extensions will be

permitted.

Please note that public hearings and

ordinances each have their own public or

their own separate comment period. Um so

if you have a there's an ordinance that

you're here for, uh we will have that

during those public comments.

Uh also please just take note that the

microphone is very sensitive and you

don't have to speak um really directly

into it. Just hover over it a little bit

and it'll pick it up.

You can come up.

Good evening.

>> [Public comment on a personal housing and discrimination matter redacted.]

>> you.

>> Others?

>> Good evening.

>> Good evening.

>> Council, um

okay, I got this is zero

>> It it works really well. I just you can

hover right there and it'll pick you up.

>> Okay, thank you.

Good evening. I'm I'm [speaker]

with the Casper Celtic Irish Festival. I

wanted to give you an update on how it

went and what we're looking forward to

next year.

We

doubled our ticket sales from our first

year and with our volunteers, um

vendors, and performers, we had just

over 600 people participate in the

event, which last year last year we were

just over 400. So we

we are very excited by how things came

how things worked out this year. Of that

just over 622%

of those people that came came from

outside of the radius of Casper Douglas.

So we had almost a quarter of our

participation came from beyond the

Casper regional area.

We um

we almost broke even financially, which

last year we had to use a private fund

to pay things off. We had some left over

so we we still in the black but we did

not quite break even this year, but for

a second year of our startup event we

were very proud of that and we plan to

grow next year to 800.

But to do that we need to increase our

board

to accommodate the the growth and we

also need to get more buy-in from the um

corporate sponsorship within the city of

Casper. We have excellent um

we have a couple of key sponsors

but we all and we have some excellent um

in-kind sponsorships

but we need the cash sponsorship from

the city of Casper people in in the city

to buy in on the event and really

realize the potential that we have for

growth.

Uh we did get some very good grants this

last year we the um

Wyoming Arts Council grant we were

granted over $10,000 from them

and we also got a grant from the um

Ireland Ireland government the um

Irish

how is it Irish immigrant support

program.

Um because of that we had one of our

very special guests this year was the

vice consul uh [name] from San

Francisco Irish consulate.

He came he opened up our ceremony he

also spoke with some key members of the

community.

Uh he

is also working with um, the Colorado

GAA, Gaelic Athletic Association. I have

passed my responsibilities for trying to

get a

Gaelic Athletic Association branch here

in Castle Rock to somebody who actually

has played the sports.

And we now have some connections here in

town that we'll be trying to put that

together.

Although the festival will continue to

support it and promote the the event as

well.

Um,

this year our other special guest was

former governor [name] and he

spoke for about an hour in our

our lecture seminar room.

And that would he had a very large crowd

of people there. That was he was very

popular. We hope to bring him back

fairly soon. He is in his 80s.

Um, but he's he was amazing, such an

amazing speaker.

We had three different stages. We had a

music stage with four different uh,

Celtic bands.

We had Irish dancers and bagpipers as

well. We had a seminar lecture room

where they did talks on

uh, Celtic the history of Celtic

artwork, uh, Celtic music, and Irish

history. Unfortunately, [name] from

Kilkenny, Ireland was not able to join

us live because his visa was did not

come in in time, but he he has agreed to

come next year.

But he was able to join us through Zoom.

So we had that and we also we added this

year a third room that was a hands-on

learning and demonstration room where we

had ancient weapons weapons

demonstration, Irish dance

demonstration,

uh, the opportunity to participate in

the Celtic knot artwork

um, seminar hands-on

course.

We also had the Irish Wolfhounds. We had

bagpipers, the GAA. It was a

very successful event this year. Our

biggest struggle that we still are

working on is food trucks. We had one

for half a day,

which is better than last year when the

one and only food truck broke down on

its way to our event.

But other than food trucks and trying to

build our Oh.

In order to build

we have um we are looking to build a

What's it called a um

Where's my notes? I'm sorry I ran over

because I couldn't remember the term.

>> just stop you there. I'm sorry.

>> Yep.

I couldn't remember the term.

>> That's okay. [laughter]

Thank you so much. Any questions? Yeah, go ahead.

Councilor Sweeney.

>> You were saying something about building

support. I just wondered what that might

be or look like.

>> Um one of the things that we are trying

to do and thank you for that because

what I was just getting ready to say but

I couldn't remember the term we're

working on a board of executive board of

directors to build that that would

actually go out and reach into the

community more. Right now we work solely

on an operational board that we're all

full-time employees at other jobs and

moms and

we have found that we need to have

a

executive board that would also be like

an advisory board and help us with

fundraising.

>> So a follow up um I mean what a what a

great event. Thank you very much

for

trying it again. I think it was a huge

success

in uh

the vice mayor

uh I kind of honed in

um crowded in on

his space but

uh the vice

so

vice

>> council

>> general council

um

from Ireland

through the San Francisco

>> Yes.

>> consulate

um

I mean so knowledgeable.

And I I could see uh potential. I've

still got

together with uh [name]

um

and uh

I found it very interesting a delegation

from

uh our Wyoming legislature was actually

in Ireland

um

and at the same time as the festival.

But

>> Yeah.

>> congratulations.

>> Thank you.

>> Any other questions for [speaker]?

Awesome. Thanks for all your work

and everything that you're doing for the

community. We appreciate it.

Anybody

else?

How would any of the councilors like to

briefly respond to any of the matters

that were brought to our attention

tonight?

Okay.

Please read the consent agenda titles.

>> Establish December 1st, 2026 as the

public hearing date for consideration of

a resolution approving a real estate

trade agreement between the city of

Casper and Natrona County for the

exchange of certain real property

interests that grant of a non-exclusive

waterline easement and authorizing the

execution of deeds and related closing

documents.

>> Thank you the chair to entertain a

motion to by minute action establish the

public hearing date just read.

>> So moved.

>> Moved by councilor Pollock, seconded by

councilor McIntosh. Any abstentions or

nay votes? Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye the

motion passes.

>> And now declare the public hearing open

for the consideration of a resolution

certifying the annexation of property on Bryan-Evansville Road. Uh Mr. City Attorney,

do you have any exhibits?

>> Thank you mayor. I do. Exhibit number

one correspondence from [staff] to

Janine Jordan dated October 16th, 2026.

Exhibit number two, affidavit of

publication is published in the Casper

Star-Tribune dated October 12th, 2026.

>> Thank you. Madam City Manager, do you

have anything?

Council will now listen to public

comments. Public hearing comments are

limited to 5 minutes and no duplication

of speakers will be allowed. At this

time, I would ask those individuals who

wish to speak in favor of this

resolution to please approach the

lectern. Anybody in favor?

Okay, at this time, I would ask any

individual who wish to speak in

opposition to this resolution to please

approach the lectern. Anybody in

opposition?

There being no one to speak uh for or

against the resolution, I now declare

the public hearing closed.

Please read the resolution by title

only.

>> A resolution finding facts pursuant to

Wyoming Stat

ute 15-1-402

regarding the annexation of Bryan-Evansville Road, a half-acre portion of a tract.

>> Thank you. Chair will entertain a motion

to adopt the resolution just read.

Moved by Councilor McIntosh, seconded by

Councilor Haskins. Any discussion from

the council?

Any amendments?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> I now declare the public hearing open

for the consideration of a resolution

certifying the annexation of the [name redacted] Addition subdivision. Uh Mr. City

Attorney, do you have anything um any

exhibits?

>> Thank you, Mayor. I do. Exhibit number

one, correspondence from [staff] to

Janine Jordan dated October 16th, 2026.

Exhibit number two, affidavit of

publication as published in the Casper

Star-Tribune dated October 12th, 2026.

>> Thank you, Madam City Manager.

>> Um Mayor, I do not. You have a complete

packet and in your file.

>> Thank you.

Council will now listen to public

comments. Public uh hearing comments are

limited to 5 minutes, and no duplication

of speakers are allowed. At this time,

we ask the

individuals who wish to speak in favor

of the resolution to please approach the

lectern. Anybody in favor?

Okay, at this time, I'd ask any

individuals to speak in opposition to

the resolution to please approach the

lectern. Anybody in opposition?

There being no one to speak for or

against the resolution, I now declare

the public hearing closed.

Please read the resolution by title

only.

>> A resolution finding facts pursuant to

Wyoming statute 15-1-402

regarding the annexation of the [name redacted] Addition subdivision.

>> Thank you. The chair would entertain a

motion to adopt the resolution just

read.

Moved by Councilor McIntosh, seconded by

Councilor Pollock. Discussion?

Any amendments?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Please read the Please read the

ordinance on second reading by title

only.

>> [clears throat]

>> An ordinance approving a final plat to

create the [name redacted] Addition subdivision

in the city of Casper, Wyoming.

>> Motion to approve on second reading the

ordinance just read.

Moved by Councilor Bond, seconded by

Madam City Manager, is there a staff

report?

>> Mayor, no, the staff report is complete

in your packet.

>> Thank you so much. Council will now

listen to public comment. Anybody wishes

to speak to this second reading?

Any discussion or amendments from the

council?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Please read the ordinance on second

reading by title only.

>> An ordinance amending various sections

of title 17 of the Casper municipal

code to up and zoning regulation related

to gaming and

clarify where gaming establishments may

locate.

>> Thank you. The chair would entertain a

motion to approve on second reading the

ordinance

just read.

Moved by Councilor McIntosh, seconded by

Councilor Pollock.

Um Madam City Manager, do you have

anything to report on this?

>> Mayor, I do. I would just point out that

this is the first of two items on your

agenda back-to-back that are companion

items. Uh the two items comprise the

recommendation of the gaming work group

that met through the summer

uh that the council established uh in

late spring.

And uh I will not speak to the next

issue. I'll let you know that ahead of

time. Just just wanted to point out that

the two are related.

>> Thank you so much.

At this time, council will now listen to

public company wish to speak on this

ordinance.

Yeah. Do you want to come up?

Yeah. Sorry.

[snorts]

I thought that was before.

>> [laughter]

>> Um all right, Mr. Mayor, members of City

Council, thank you for allowing me to

speak. My name is uh [speaker].

Uh I'm one of the owners of [a downtown business]. I'm here to

ask you to reconsider Ordinance 17-26 um

or at least postpone it until we can

find a compromise. [snorts] Um I want

again by address or I want to begin by

addressing those of you who supported

the ordinance on the first reading. Um I

understand what you're trying to

accomplish. I do. Um and I respect it.

Um you want to protect the character of

downtown Casper and the Old Yellowstone

District. You have a vision for what

those areas should become. And I want

you to understand something. Uh that

vision is exactly

Um I'm not a wealthy developer. I don't

own properties all over Wyoming. I'm a

middle-class guy.

Um I don't have substantial investment

portfolio.

Uh I don't have significant assets

elsewhere uh to fall back on.

Um but I believed in downtown Casper.

Um and I believed in the Old Yellowstone

District and what this community was

trying to build.

Because of that, I took a substantial

portion of my personal net worth and

invested it right there alongside with

my business partners.

That was my first major leap into

business

and business ownership.

It was an enormous financial risk and it

was terrifying and it still is and to be

honest, because of this, it's getting

more terrifying.

I took that risk because I believed in

the city and that's why this ordinance

is so personal to me.

When you look at this ordinance, you see

it as a zoning change intended to

protect downtown. When I look at it, I

see a decision that could jeopardize one

of the largest financial investments

I've ever made.

We have no intention of selling anytime

soon.

We want these businesses to succeed and

we want to keep investing in Casper.

But someday, rather that's 10 years from

now or when I'm ready to retire, I may

need to sell.

And the reality is that selling a bar or

entertainment venue is already

incredibly difficult and the potential

buyer pool is already small and the

hospitality industry faces an uncertain

future.

This ordinance would further restrict

that pool by eliminating a potentially

valuable future use of our properties.

And here's what I struggle with. A

property just 100 yards away on the

other side of an invisible zoning

boundary could retain opportunities that

mine would now lose.

Not because my business has done

anything wrong, not because we're

creating a problem, simply because I

chose to invest a substantial portion of

my net worth on one side of a line

rather than the other.

When I made this investment, I could

never have reasonably anticipated that

distinction would someday threaten its

value.

I invested in downtown Casper because

the city wanted people to invest in

downtown Casper and now I'm asking that

same city not to unintentionally harm

the people who answered that call.

I don't believe anyone on this council

is trying to hurt me or my business

partners and I genuinely believe you're

trying to do what's best for Casper. But

good intentions do not eliminate

unintended consequences.

For me, those consequences could be

devastating.

This is not an abstract concern about my

property values. This is my financial

future. It's years of work, savings, and

a sacrifice

and I suspect many of you can relate to

that. Most of us work hard, save what we

can, and occasionally take a chance on

something we believe in.

Imagine taking the largest financial

risk of your life because you believed

in a community, only to have that same

community later restrict the very

investment you made to help it succeed.

That's the position I'm asking you not

to put me in. I'm asking you not to

abandon your vision. I'm not asking you

to support gambling. I'm simply asking

you to protect existing businesses while

planning for the future.

Grandfather an existing full tell

re-liquor license or sorry, full retail

liquor licensed premises with that

protection extending to future owners

and lawful uses.

And if that requires more discussion,

please postpone this ordinance.

Take two weeks, take a month, but sit

down with us, the ones that are going to

be affected.

Um some of you supported this ordinance

on first reading, and I'm not asking you

to abandon that.

I'm asking rather just at least two of

you

might be willing to say, let's take a

little more time on this. Let's just

make sure what we're doing is right.

When I finally had the opportunity to

make a significant financial investment,

I chose to make it here in downtown

Casper, in my community.

And I believed in its future. And so

tonight I'm asking you to believe in the

people who invested in that future.

Please don't make us choose between

supporting downtown Casper and

protecting our own financial futures.

Thank you.

>> Any questions?

Yeah, go ahead, Councilor Sweeney.

>> Thank you for coming.

Um I know [speaker] here also

in uh

[name], unfortunately,

sent us all a letter with his thoughts

also, but I really appreciate your

perspective and you coming and asking

this of us tonight.

>> Thank you very much.

>> Any other questions?

Thanks. Appreciate it.

Anybody else?

[speaker].

>> Deep breath.

>> It's good to see you.

>> Um thank you guys for having me.

First of all, what [speaker] said, um I've

had the opportunity to work alongside

many of guys sitting up there and some

of the people that normally sit back

here and uh

I don't doubt your intentions on where

you're

what you guys want to do with the

downtown Casper and the OYD and if

anything comes across like that, I just

want to let it know right now that

that's not the intentions behind this

and though

um our positions may not all align, I

don't doubt your commitment to the good

either and I want to thank all of you

guys for

your um

commitment to those efforts.

Last time I spoke, I pointed out that a

prohibition on new gaming establishments

in downtown

in the old Yellowstone district while

still allowing them in our outer zones

doesn't solve a problem and simply hands

a competitive advantage to the edges of

town.

It amounts to the city choosing economic

winners and losers. For clarity, that is

a much different conversation than a

blanket moratorium and may have

contributed to the perception of my

opposition

um wasn't as vocal prior to last

meeting. When the conversation reverted

into prohibition in only certain areas,

which is a stated mechanism of zoning,

um which I respect and understand, it

was also brought right to our doorstep.

I was opposed to the moratorium as well,

um but I digress.

I also noted some real numbers. Casper

received roughly 2.3 million from

historic horse racing and simulcasting

in 2025.

Those facilities both keep local and

draw regional visitors and spend money

in Casper.

Tonight I want to further connect those

points to what the data actually shows

and what it doesn't.

The gaming working group and staff

materials do not contain local economic

data demonstrating that these

establishments cause blight, depressed

property values, increase vacancies, or

harm commercial activity in downtown or

the OYD or anywhere.

When staff mapped locations against

incidents and other data, they found no

clear relationship between gaming and

crime or other concerning calls.

The fiscal picture they presented was

simply that revenue has grown and is now

moderating, hardly evidence of stress.

The stated concerns about character,

vibrancy, and parking are

considerations.

They are not the same as evidence that

the use itself produces dilapidation or

economic and social decline.

That distinction matters because

there are already tools in place to

address the concerns without a

categorical prohibition. Senate file 45,

I think, and the permitting process this

council is adopting give you

site-specific authority to approve or

deny any new location and to attach

conditions on hours, parking, traffic,

safety, terminal placement, and

responsible gaming measures. You can

already say no. You can already shape

how an establishment operates. A zoning

prohibition on top of that authority is

not necessary for control. It only

eliminates the possibility of evaluating

a specific proposal on its merits.

The practical net effect of the ban only

removes one more viable commercial use

from districts where activating space

and supporting surrounding businesses is

already challenging.

Instead, the existing facilities

continue regardless and the future

activity and the local distributions

that come with it will further shift to

the zones where it remains allowed. The

statewide numbers for 2026 continue to

show growth with indications that total

statewide handle will exceed $3 billion,

well above last year. Regardless of

moral stance, the market has secured its

presence.

I respect and understand the social

concerns around gambling, financial

strain for some people, and the reality

of problem gambling and addiction for

others. Not everyone who wagers has a

problem, but the risks are real and they

deserve attention.

This prohibition in certain areas

already zoned and designed for

entertainment doesn't solve these

issues. The activity doesn't disappear.

It simply moves to the perimeter, often

closer to residential neighborhoods.

Access remains available citywide and

mobile options exist regardless of local

zoning. The low-hanging fruit is gone,

but the tree still thrives regardless.

However, the tools that do actually

speak to responsible gaming are already

available under the local approval

process you're adopting.

You can require responsible gaming

training for employees, set hours, limit

terminal limit terminal placement, and

impose other operating conditions on a

site-by-site, case-by-case basis.

Already statewide, a portion of gaming

tax revenue is dedicated to gambling

related programs. Those are the

mechanisms that address the behavior

itself. A categorical prohibition on

locations in targeted commercial

districts does not reduce the underlying

risk.

Wholeheartedly, I share the goal of a

strong, vibrant downtown in OYD. The

local approval process already gives

this council the ability to protect

character, manage disruption, and

address responsible gaming concerns on a

case-by-case basis.

An OYD and downtown zoning pro addition

goes further than the evidence supports

and removes flexibility in the very

areas where we need more options, not

fewer. Please use the tools you already

have. Keep the door open for projects

that can meet the standards you set

rather than close close it permanently.

Excuse me. Thank you.

>> Nice job.

[laughter]

Any questions?

Yeah, go ahead, Councilor Sweeney.

>> Thank you for coming. And

that was

great. You were

4 seconds left. That's pretty darn good.

Um so I I really appreciate your

perspective and appreciate you coming um

2 weeks ago also in trying to point

point out uh from your perspective as a

as a business owner.

And I'd like to point out too that [name]

was uh

trying to get here, one

of the owners of a downtown business.

Um and she has sent letters also, but

she's currently working her operation

uh as um

small business owner and

sure you guys can appreciate that too.

So

>> I try to avoid it at all costs.

>> me too, but

um but no, really appreciate you coming

and

um

um making making the effort. So, thank

you.

>> Thank you.

Any questions?

>> Oh, yeah. Go ahead.

>> Thanks. I'm drafting some comments in

response to you and the other folks that

have spoken, but I was just curious

I hope you made it uh

>> We did. The event was fantastic and my

my adrenaline was was low, which was

nice.

>> Glad to hear [clears throat] it.

>> Is that all yet?

>> That's all I got.

>> Oh, okay. I was waiting for something

more grand.

[clears throat]

Sorry.

Yeah, go ahead Councilor Bond.

>> [speaker], I thank you for being here again

tonight. I I guess

where I am right now is about

kind of with the it's not so much I mean

the the

negative drawbacks that you that you

mentioned with addiction and so the

blighting and so on and so forth.

I guess those aren't my

has it my concerns right now

is [clears throat] is the the character

and climate of the downtown in terms of

of

kind of what I what I picture when I

picture a robust downtown is people

kind of moving more regularly and that

kind of thing circulating to bars and

restaurants etc etc.

Where

I mean

I've been in a few gambling

establishments and and I know people

tend to kind of come in there and kind

of camp out and

you know there's often restaurants and

bars right there and they kind of park

and stay there. And that that that just

wasn't kind of what I was kind of

picturing

when I think of what I would like to see

the downtown and a Y DB. Do you have any

thoughts about

and I guess secondly is that I feel like

there are

some other options available to the city

and to business owners to

to capture and to

you know take take full advantage of the

momentum of of downtown and and you know

make a a family-friendly,

safe, fun place to be

for our community.

>> I I do appreciate those questions.

Sorry.

I think related to one thing I did

during my research

kind of basic research to not counter

but figure out what some of the

negatives were is

in Casper we've actually found out that

go to gamble

go to gamble, they play and then they

leave.

I hesitate to say this. It's It's not a

great, to your point, economic um

booster,

>> Yeah.

>> but in those areas those places sort of

already existed in Casper. Casper is a

very unique market relative to gambling

as far as um

your buildings and things like that, I

only know where I've been. I've probably

only really been in nice places.

Deadwood is the closest place that I

would maybe offer a counter to your

argument that they've they've sort of

saved their town by creating a downtown

gambling environment. I am not

suggesting that. I I don't think that's

a concern. I think the market would

already be downtown if that was their

focus on where they want to be. Um

one thing I think this really does is it

sort of locks in the existing people as

having the upper hand for good and no

new competition can ever come in and

threaten them or make them better or

anything like that. And that's one of

the the bigger concerns is if a one in a

residential neighborhood maybe does want

to move downtown because they see

um a rising tide situation down here.

Now they can't and from my

understanding, I could be wrong, most of

them don't really want to expand. They

would potentially be interested in

moving.

Now we're creating a situation where

they're locked into where they are and

nobody else can ever come in anywhere.

So they've sort of captured a market

unintentionally which would sort of be

maybe my guess why nobody from those

places is here speaking against any of

this.

Thank you.

Anybody else?

>> Thanks. Oh, you have something?

Oh yeah, go ahead.

>> He brought up Deadwood. So, um I'm just

secretly hoping that

that you become partners with Ian

Munsick since he just opened up one down

there because [clears throat] that's a

Wyoming and what a what a partnership

that would be for here. And but that's

what you're saying is opportunities like

that would not exist

if we draw this line.

>> There's a very similar place up there. I

don't remember the name of it. It's in

an old mining sludge factory that a Big

and Rich that

owned, but it that it we we have tried

to tag along with them in other ways. Um

they have a different gambling. We don't

do table games. So that's that's a

totally different conversation and I

think that actually leads to much more

problems and it actually can lead to

much more benefits as well, but that's a

>> Right.

>> that's not Wyoming's. I I think that's

exclusive to the reservation land. Does

that sound correct or is that even

wrong? So that's that's a it's a little

bit hard to compare Wyoming. Montana

even is a little bit different because

of their laws. So

I struggled with finding comps. I tried

to beat my own case up as well for what

it's worth. Like the mental health thing

is undeniable. There's proof all over

the world. They make you do a gambling

hotline

um disclaimer at the end of all of the

sports gambling advertisements, which

unfortunately um and I don't know if the

event center has any of those

sponsorships as well, but I and so

I I just appreciate you guys looking at

all the options and maybe like I wanted

to point out in here that maybe you

already have the tools without having to

to do a prohibition anywhere. So

>> Thanks. Appreciate you.

>> Appreciate you.

Anybody else?

Okay.

Let's move to discussion and or

amendments for the ordinance.

Give an ordinance there.

Counselor.

>> So uh

mayor, council

um I would postpone the second reading

of the ordinance to November 17th

for the pur-

purpose of allowing staff to research

the concept

and of a an overlay district.

>> Is there a second?

>> I'm the

>> Okay.

All right, it has been moved and

seconded to postpone the second reading

on the consideration of the ordinance

to November 17th, 2020.

We will have a discussion on the

postponement, but I want to make sure

that it's understood that we are just

limited to talking about postponement

itself, not the merits of the ordinance.

So I'll open it up for discussion.

Councilor Sweeney, do you want to start

the discussion?

>> Thank you, Mayor.

So

first

at some point,

I think it was two weeks ago on the

first reading,

basically the city attorney kind of

spelled out what

might be possible and what wasn't

possible

and

kind of in my mind trying to lay out a

plan

of what it might look like.

I know

some of you are ready to move this

forward and that may be the outcome

tonight on second reading.

However, as a long time small business

owner in Casper

and now a member of this council, have a

problem with how this will affect

two businesses in the future

and you've you've heard from one of

them,

the two downtown businesses.

You have also received letters from the

owners of a downtown business and you've

heard from [speaker] and [speaker] tonight,

which is in regards to what, what we're

talking about.

The bar and restaurant business is a

tough business. I know that firsthand.

Quite honestly, at the end of the day

when it comes time to sell,

it's the real estate that is usually all

you have to sell. It is rare anymore to

get much out of Blue Sky.

You have heard previously from the city

attorney

that to grandfather these business would

not be legal for us to do.

So I'm not asking

uh

for us to do anything illegal or outside

the box.

In my mind, what the this motion does is

gives the city a bit of time

to try and find a way to protect

businesses and property owners

in the old Yellowstone district in

particular, so they might be able to

sell to anyone they please.

Uh just like if they were across the

street on Collins,

could tomorrow less than 100 yards away

from those businesses.

So mayor and council, I would ask for

your support

on this motion.

Uh I also want to thank those

uh that have provided a letter

um from the

Old Yellowstone District Board

um and and others that have and are in

full support of these changes to Title

17. Not taking your position lightly.

I just feel that we're being unfair

and we'll leave it at that. Thank you,

mayor.

>> Thank you, councilor. Any other

comments?

>> I'll say this is kind of dovetailing off

of what councilor Sweeney is saying. Um

I too would ask for some more time to

not only um talk to the actual building

owners that are downtown, not just the

renters of the storefronts.

Um, again, just not

crediting anybody either. It's just I

feel that there's a line of that is

unfair in this. Um, they bought those

buildings and now

they're going to put,

you know, rules and regs on them that

they did not have prior to that. I mean,

they knew that they were in the old

Yellowstone district, but that's one

thing than to decide

who can buy and who can and alienating

others. So, um, I would ask for that

support as well, just a chance to

discuss with the building actual owners

and get their thoughts and feelings on

it.

Um, and how if they have the similar

perspective to

um, [speaker] and [name]'s perspective on

what's going on downtown. And then

look at possible annexation of that

something that we can't work around or

if they're

want to get annexed out of the old

Yellowstone district so that those

opportunities don't do that, but I think

it's something that we should discuss.

>> Any other discussion? Yep. Councilor

Pollock.

>> Thank you. Uh, thanks for everybody who

came and spoke and sent in um, emails as

well.

I

open to supporting the postponement. I I

don't think I've been moved,

you know, so far that I that I

I I'm still pretty committed, I think,

to

what I believe is

the right vision for downtown and and I

so I I haven't really come away from

that perspective, but I don't have any

problem taking some extra time to

particularly to see if there are

um, any

solutions that preserve a little bit

more flexibility um, for us.

Understanding grandfathering is not one

of them. I don't know that I would

support that anyways. I think that's

just bad practice generally. Um, but I

I I will support the postponement

um,

just to see to make sure we've turned

over the stones and to make sure that

um, you know, we've we keep as much

flexibility as possible while still

moving towards the vision that we're

trying to move to. So um, you know, what

that means for me on third reading, I

don't know. Um, but

I'm happy to take an extra beat and make

sure that we've

we've looked at uh all angles that we

can.

>> Vice Mayor.

>> Thank you, Mayor.

[clears throat] Um, I guess my question

to the supporters of the

uh motion is what what are we hoping to

get this exploration of like a potential

overlay district? What

what's the

what's the end goal in I guess going

through that exercise and what are you

hoping the outcome to be?

>> So my understanding is Cheyenne

uh

uh either has or is putting in place

this overlay district and

perhaps the city attorney is better

framed to

uh talk about this, but

um so

my understanding with that overlay

district

is being able and still being within the

letter of state statute

um to be able to preserve

um certain certain areas. I don't know

that if it's necessarily the entire Old

Yellowstone district

uh on the spot,

uh but perhaps um

the city attorney could talk to that.

>> Yeah, go ahead.

>> Yeah, thank you, Mayor, Council. Um, so

I I did address Council at the last

meeting, the first reading

um

about why

grandfathering specific businesses um

would not be allowed by law.

Um, in speaking with council Sweeney, I

think there are several potential

alternatives, um, which uh

the adoption of any of these would would

be policy decisions for council, but

certainly

an amendment could be made to to allow

gaming in the OYD or C3 as a right. Um,

it could be amended to allow it as a

conditional use. I think we've explained

why that would be kind of a very

cumbersome process, especially in light

of the Senate File 45 and the permitting

process.

The other [clears throat] way to to

potentially address it would be to kind

of pivot and take a different

philosophical approach and and that

would be to designate overlay districts.

So Cheyenne did this by creating overlay

districts across the top of certain

commercial zones

where gaming establishments would be

allowed as of right.

Um, this is not something that we've

spent much time looking at, primarily

because I think at the working group

level it was determined early on that it

was not something that we were going to

focus on.

Um, I could tell you and I think [staff] would

echo this,

we do not have anything in our

ordinances that set up a mechanism. So

if council directed us to go down this

road,

[clears throat] we would have to be kind

of starting from scratch in terms of

creating these overlay districts, but it

could be done.

But what I would say is it's probably

not something that could be done at

second or third reading under the

current proposed ordinance changes.

It would create

it would necessitate probably a new

proposed ordinance change to to create

that system.

I would remind council that the

moratorium ends December 31st.

So if if we do pause this, that clock is

still ticking.

We decided on six months. There's no

hard and fast deadline in terms of how

long a moratorium can stretch, but there

is a certain point in time, I think,

that well, I mean, case law indicates

that it

uh ceases to become a temporary

moratorium and and could become an

illegal uh

[clears throat] prohibition. So so that

that would create a an additional um

complexity uh

there as as well. Um

finally, if the moratorium did uh

expire and we hadn't um

uh adopted either this change or another

change, what we we would be left with in

the interim is the current iteration of

uh the ordinance around zoning which

creates um conditional uses and so there

would be some incongruity and we would

lose the updating around um

the uh definitions and so forth. Um so

so so so bottom line is that is

certainly uh an option um that that

could be revisited um in more depth, um

but it doesn't come without some

complexities.

>> Yeah. Councilor Bond.

>> Thank you, Mayor. Uh I just want to

Well, first of all, I guess I am

I

am willing to support postponement as

well, but I do want to understand what

we're asking

staff to

research. So I want to be sure I

understand what this idea of an overlay

district.

So, Mr. City Manager, are you when you

when you say overlay district, are you

talking about

certain areas? So like say in the C3 or

OYD, there would be this block

that's that overlay that gambling is

allowed in this block or

>> Yeah, Mayor, Councilor um

that that is in essence what what has

happened and I have not

taken a deep dive into but but they

created four special um zones that that

would allow gaming as of right that

overlay um the underlying commercial

designation. So in this case, you would

have the OYD and then there would be an

overlay. Um I think there are questions

around the constitutionally

constitutionality

of doing this given that any zoning

district you have to have uniformity

pursuant to to the Wyoming Constitution.

So certainly they've done it in

Cheyenne.

So we can certainly explore that.

Whether or not it could be as granular

as we're going to allow it on this block

and not a block over. I mean those are

open questions that would need to be

researched.

Again I think if we were going to pivot

and take a different philosophical

kind of approach to to the way the city

would regulate this you know I I think

we're probably looking at 90 days to to

to be candid

so we spent quite a bit of time to get

to where we were at with the gaming

subcommittee and it would be kind of

resetting the bar in a sense. So.

>> Go ahead Councilman Sweeney.

>> So mayor if

if I can ask the city attorney

so on the

moratorium itself

could we that say another 60 days

from

because it it is due to expire at the

end of the year. I mean is is that

possible or is that irregular?

>> Yeah mayor counselor

I'm going to equivocate a little bit and

so there there again in in Wyoming law

there is not

to which you you have to

release a temporary moratorium. There is

a case out of [name] where a land use

temporary land use moratorium went on

for well over a year

and got challenged and and was held to

be illegal and unconstitutional. So so

where that line is you know six months

was chosen because that seemed to to be

in line with previous moratorium

and

past practice throughout the state

um extending it for another 60 90 days I

I I think you're you're pushing closer

to that line to where it could be could

be challenged and then and uh legally

and held to not be constitutional um and

not to be legal.

So so really not a bright line rule.

>> Vice Mayor.

>> Yeah, Councilor Jensen.

>> Oh, Councilor Jensen, go ahead.

>> Just back to the Vice Mayor's original question

that he asked before we got into the

overlay.

>> You [laughter] bet.

>> Um

I was going to say that I don't me

particularly I don't think that I'm

looking for um a particular outcome of

something cuz you would ask what if we

were looking for an outcome. I'm not

looking for a specific outcome. I'm just

looking for um an opportunity for

those other businesses that maybe are

the owners that maybe we have these same

perspectives and that's what I want to

hear with giving a little bit of extra

time is just a chance that they

understand

and how to protect their their

investment. So that is um what I'm

doing, just asking for more time so that

they actually are aware of what could

potentially

hurt not hurt our business and the same

perspectives that these guys got.

So just an opportunity.

>> [clears throat]

>> Thank you, Mayor.

Uh I want to thank [speaker] and [speaker] uh

both for uh

your comments this evening and thank you

also [speaker] for coming to see us last

time. Um

I also want to thank you for the

recognition of the nuanced position that

we are all in for your acknowledgment

that we are all in these seats, I

believe, out of a genuine desire of

serving our community.

And I also want to thank you for your

investments in downtown Casper. The

establishments that you guys have been a

part of have been real catalysts for

change and have really contributed to

the renewed sense of energy and

entertainment options downtown. We as

residents all have access to

entertainment that we've never had

before.

Uh and Uh and I want to thank you guys

for

that. that note, [band] plays

Friday at a downtown venue and [name]

experience at a downtown venue same night. So

again, sensitive to these sorts of

things. So

I personally don't

see the revenue potential. I think we're

about capped out and

all the information and research I have

available to me through the Spectrum

Gaming Group study through

folks representing

gaming

industry establishments like Ballies,

they're all telling me the same thing

that the market's saturated. So I don't

see much in the way of revenue potential

there.

I also think it's important to recognize

that when we're comparing ourselves to

Cheyenne, whether it's overlay districts

which I was trying to do some research

up here. I'll admit I haven't done much.

I haven't asked my colleagues down in

Cheyenne how they've been handling that

and haven't done much research, but it

does look like those overlay districts

you know prohibited in the vast majority

of downtown other than kind of the

outskirts.

I think that's important to note. Also

the fact that in Cheyenne you know

they're right

>> to call a point of order. I think we're

moving away from the conversation. I'm

going to look at our city attorney.

>> Mayor, council so certainly your

prerogative, but

to remember under Robert's Rules um

we've got a motion to and so really

the debate and discussion should be

around just the continuance um and not

necessarily the the merits of the

underlying um

>> The ordinance itself. Yeah.

>> Thank you for the redirection city

attorney. Um

I had a feeling that was the case. I was

just hoping to

burst through it before you stopped me

uh cuz I wanted to make sure my comments

were out there on the record. So uh with

that said I'll I'll you know I'll have

some additional comments and things I

didn't quite get to but at this point in

time uh I don't support the postponement

because I don't

see you know with the city attorney's

you know um

um statement that we're not looking at a

simple amendment. We're looking at a

complete overhaul of what we've been

considering and so uh without seeing a

clear path forward on how we amend the

current ordinance in front of us if we

were to postpone for a couple weeks uh

that's why I wouldn't support it at this

time. Thank you.

>> Any other discussion on this motion?

Yeah, go ahead.

Oh, sorry. Hold on one second. Councilor

Haskins.

>> I mean you shook your head like anyone

knew what I had to say but I thought you

were kidding.

>> was lulled by

Councilor [name unclear]'s golden voice.

>> I'm going to stand up.

>> a little

>> The attorney wasn't.

>> [laughter]

>> Go ahead Councilor [name unclear] or Councilor

Haskins.

>> Do that.

No. I just have a couple questions too.

Please let me ask both. Okay.

No reason.

Before we decide to vote on postponing

should I ask if we should try to

separate the zoning from the definition

so the definitions part can continue?

>> Mayor, Councilor, so that is certainly

within your prerogative. Um

now I would say from from just a order

of operations [clears throat] we've got

this motion to continue so I think that

needs to be dealt with first. Um but

certainly if you wanted to tease

parts of this apart Um, we we could do

that. Um,

I

would ask that we not try to do it on

the fly. Um,

that probably would lead to some some

missteps potentially, but but if that is

the

uh

you know, prerogative or or what Council

wants to do, then we can certainly work

on that as well.

>> I'm not trying to complicate it, but we

do want the definitions updated no

matter what we decide to do about the

zoning part. So I figured I should see

where we landed on that, especially if

you think it'll take 90 days or more,

but if we're going with till next week

and then we decide, I mean

next meeting,

I'm good with whatever you guys want to

do there, but then I guess my thought

was if we decide to postpone

next one, should we consider

releasing some of the moratorium and

maybe just holding the moratorium on the

smaller area so that we can

release most of the town if we're just

focusing on this one area and not coming

to a consensus.

And then I wanted to point out to you,

Janet, if this didn't pass,

the part where the downtown area's

business owners and so on, definitely in

the next ordinance we did spend a good

bit of time creating a mechanism for all

the building owners and business owners

to have their two cents on these things.

In the survey process we had in the

event we didn't do this one.

>> I'm just asking for time so that they

can think of it in a different

perspective from where

uh

[speaker] and her come from.

Because the survey was specifically

about gambling. This is about investing

and protecting their investments to

other buyers for an opportunity.

>> I'm sorry. Our survey that the group

But there is an avenue if this doesn't

work for them to do what they wanted.

>> I'm going to go to Councilor Pollock.

>> Thanks. I

question for the city attorney. I I

think um

I'm I'm not likely to support overlay

districts as a concept um generally. So

um but but when I said flexibility it

it am I understanding correctly that the

only way that we get flexibility to be

able to look at a certain area and

determine the

appropriateness of gaming in that

specific area

on a case-by-case basis is to deal with

the conditional use permit process.

>> Mayor Councilor so from a land use

perspective that that is one mechanism

but I I would remind

council that with permitting process and

so anywhere any zoning area where it's

allowed as of right they stop to go

through that permitting process um and

so council would have an opportunity

then to negotiate with the developer um

certain restrictions but but that gets

fairly nuanced as well um because

we can't really delve into those areas

that are within the sole purview of of

the State Gaming Commission which um

when when I read the statute I think is

is pretty prescriptive and and really

kind of um restricts council's ability

to add a lot of different conditions. So

there could be around parking, around

traffic flows, um security, those types

of things. Um but it also allows that

developer if it the permit's denied the

ability to um appeal that decision to to

district court. So so so while Senate

File 45 does give the municipality a

voice um I I would say it's a little bit

of a muted voice in terms of of making

those decisions. Um adding a conditional

use um

uh

kind of land use um restriction would

then route this through uh

planning and zoning and and I think that

that was a topic of discussion with

staff and and the gaming um subcommittee

and it was determined that

you know having

a set of folks that are looking at land

use and then making decisions on gaming

when there's a separate permitting

process um it probably wasn't very

efficient would lead to very good

outcomes and so I think it was staff's

recommendation not to go down that that

>> Yeah, go ahead.

>> Um,

just to put a finer point on the

question about um

permitting, I it it is my understanding

that

while

Senate File 45 provide provides

some

ability for municipalities to create

conditions,

um if it's a

if it's allowed by right and the Gaming

Commission deems it permittable,

our option is not to say you actually

can't open that there. Our option is to

say

you have to do X, Y, or Z

because of where you're located, but we

can't say we we actually don't want that

there.

>> Yeah, Mayor Councilor. So so it's a

little bit inverse. So so before the

state would give the gaming statewide

permit, they would have to have the

local local government permit. Um, but

but I I think in in in essence

and from a practical standpoint, I think

you're correct. I think if the city said

we are just not going to allow it, um

there has to be substantial evidence to

support that decision apart from those

issues that the state deals with. And so

um

in in and I see that very

frankly difficult to defend at the

district court level and in and in most

cases likely to be overturned. Um, so so

again, I think it does give municipality

a say, gives us at a seat at the table

the ability to negotiate some some

reasonable um restrictions around

operation, but I I do believe while

technically the city could deny it, um

from a practical standpoint, I don't see

that being a slam dunk.

>> Yeah, you bet.

>> Um, all right. So if if my possession is

that I I ultimately wouldn't

be likely to support an overlay

district. That's the amendment on the

table right now.

Um,

is there anything else that you can see

that would be worth researching in

postponement, other mechanisms that we

have not discussed or have not been

presented to us outside of overlay

districts that would be worth taking the

added two weeks to research.

>> Yeah, Mayor, Councilor. So so I I'm

unaware of any other options that that

would require us to to do any

substantial research. I mean, I I think

some of the other policy, you know, the

the policy [snorts] decisions would be

to allow it as of right um

uh to in the OYD or C3 or both um to

allow it as a conditional use in in

either one or both um or or to to not

allow it at all or explore some type of

overlay district. But it gets it's

pretty legally fraught when you start

trying to spot zone or or

since there's no actual gaming

establishments within the OYD or C3 now,

there there is no prior nonconforming

use that can be grandfathered. So that's

that's really a little bit of a mis

misnomer and I think sometimes it's lost

that um

gaming is not tied to retail liquor

licenses um or skill games are. And so

if if hypothetically Councilor were to

say we're going to allow these retail

liquor license holders to to someday um

sell out to gaming,

well, they're not a competitive to um

the owner who buys a business and then

transfers a retail license because

they're not, you know. So so so there's

all kinds of legal issues with that. So

I I don't see a lot of options outside

um uh

kind of an overlay district or I I guess

um

and I had written that down and I'm glad

you reminded me.

Council could change the boundaries of

the OYD, right? And I mean, you could re

rezone portions of it to C2 potentially.

And I'm just throwing this out

hypothetically. Um that would allow it

as a right. Um and so that that would

that would take some additional work

as well with staff.

>> Any other discussion on this motion um

from Councilor [name unclear]?

Okay.

So um cast your vote on the

postponements.

>> Please record the vote.

>> Councilors Sweeney and Jensen voting aye

and all others voting nay.

The motion failed.

>> Thank you. Now we'll move on to

discussion or amendments to the

ordinance itself

self. Um so now we can talk about the

merits of the ordinance um and go a

little bit deeper. So

I want to do that. We can start with

you.

>> Thank you, Mayor.

Uh I won't rehash all my talking points,

but um real quickly

some of the thing to keep in

consideration

um

uh

Yeah. So again, I don't see the revenue

potential. Um there's lots of research I

think to support uh

that position that I don't think we'd

see much more than the 2.3 that we're

already collecting uh in revenue.

Um I think it's important to recognize

Casper is different than a lot of other

communities who have found a lot of

benefit from gaming in the sense that

we're not a border town. We'll not be

attracting out of state visitors to

these establishments.

Um so that means the majority of the

spending that would take place there

would be from local residents.

And uh instead of those revenue staying

local by purchasing a sandwich at

Steamboat or uh breakfast at Shari's,

they're instead going to be siphoned out

of state to corporations whose

headquarters are not based in our state

and whose leadership do not live here

and therefore have no necessity to

protect the culture, character, and

public safety of our community. Um so I

think that's important to recognize.

Um Cheyenne obviously is our nearest

kind of uh comparison in the state. It's

really the only other city uh

uh equivalent to our size and stuff, but

uh no disrespect to my colleagues in

Cheyenne, our downtown's better than

theirs. Um I just don't You know, our

downtown's way better than theirs.

Uh and I think a lot of people would

agree. And so I I don't think we should

be looking to them as a model. I think

they should be looking to us as a model

um because I think we're doing it better

than them.

Um and so you know uh I also think it's

important

um

uh uh you know part of my role is not

just as one councilor, but

uh through my service on the OID and the

DDA, I also view myself as kind of an

ambassador for those stakeholders and

those

um folks that are a part of those

organizations. And so

um uh you know, I mentioned at our work

session last week uh uh the gentlemen in

the audience uh weren't with us, which I

totally understand. It was a work

session, so no opportunity for public

comment or anything. But I mentioned the

fact that I had a recent OID meeting and

it was unanimous in opposition to

allowing gaming downtown. And so um this

is only second reading. And so while I

do not support the postponement cuz I I

didn't

see kind of what the what the goal was

through postponement, I certainly

welcome uh the gentlemen that are here

speaking this evening to come back to

third reading. And certainly if there's

any other people that share those

perspectives

um I want to hear from them as well

because the majority of the feedback,

95% of the feedback I'm getting from

anyone who has a stake downtown is that

they don't want it. And so you know, I I

feel obligated through my liaison work

uh through those organizations to

represent the will of those groups and

the will of those groups

as I'm hearing it and understanding it

is uh you know, almost unanimously in

opposition. And so um that's why I

haven't felt compelled to move away from

my position in the moment. But certainly

we got two more weeks till the next

reading. Uh I I'm certainly welcome to

additional input, feedback. I

you know, I don't consider any of my

opinions set in stone. Uh and uh if

there's compelling enough evidence to

sway me, I uh

I have no qualms in changing my

position. But um

but that's kind of where I stand

currently. So yeah, continue to welcome

input, feedback. Please continue

reaching out. Please come speak to us.

Third reading. Uh anybody that hasn't

reached out to us yet, please

you know, um

please do so in whatever way you are

most comfortable. But um that's kind of

where I stand currently. Thank you,

Mayor.

>> Councilor Haskins.

>> Gentlemen, I'm going to try to speak on

your behalf, so stop me if I misquote.

I feel like the direction that the

committee that we put together, the

working group, I'm sorry, that we went

for,

planning and zoning made it very clear

the conditional use was not

something they would supported. So when

we came to council, the intention was

one of two things. Either we completely

say no

or we completely say yes. And the

working group kind of went on the

mindset that we would open it up and say

yes across the board for planning and

zoning, which is why we put the

extensive amount of our work group time

into the next ordinance

where

land surveys

or I'm sorry, owner surveys and groups

of the sort

take that decision not so much out of

our hands, but give us a lot more

information from all of those people

before decisions are made in the

permitting process. And I know it's not

foolproof, but also the ordinance that

we're voting on next doesn't set those

in stone, so we could tweak it to make

it work more or less. And that was kind

of the intention. We didn't want to make

those decisions. We didn't want planning

and zoning to have to make those

decisions.

So our thought was it would be opened up

and then we would go to step two.

That said, it was likened to me recently

that this is kind of like when you buy a

house in an HOA and you do all your

research on what that HOA will allow or

not, like you can't build in front of

your house or not.

And then suddenly the

HOA says, you know what, we aren't going

to allow campers on the street anymore.

They have to be behind the fence. Or

actually, we don't even want that

because the guy in the house down here,

we updated their HOA and they can't have

it.

And when I bought my house and they told

me that was going to happen, I was

irate. Like I was mad, mad because I

bought my house and I read that entire

HOA document.

But my HOA had to let every single owner

in the HOA have a vote.

And then that vote decided what was

going to happen for the area. And that

is kind of how I feel like this should

be happening. Because his research when

he bought in this HOA and now suddenly

the HOA is like, you know what, we

changed the rules and you can't have

campers anymore here. Sorry, get it in

storage space. And I just don't feel

like that's appropriate for the HOA to

do without weighing in on every single

person.

Do I still think they're going to get

gaming downtown? Probably not. I think

you're going to lose ultimately, but I

don't want it to be my decision. I

wanted it to be theirs. And again, it's

not a perfect survey idea, but we had

really good intentions and I do think

with a minute it could be tweaked.

So once again, I'm voting no. And it's

so weird because I helped build this

stinking thing I bring into you, but I

You guys were supposed to let it be

opened and then like my survey. But here

we are. So that's where I'm at.

>> Other discussion on the ordinance.

Go ahead, Councilor Sweeney.

>> So I appreciate the comments. I'll

be a no, but

um

um

I don't I don't know enough about the

overlay district

um or

uh to

uh speak to that and I agree with our

city attorney

that we'd have to take a lot more time

um to work through all of that, the

nuances.

Uh but I do believe

um

as uh Councilor Haskins mentioned,

I

if you even go back and watch the tape

um

when the working group

um

presented that,

I still believed we were going to put

the surveys out.

And it wasn't until that meeting

that

um I was corrected on that point. And

that ship had already sailed. Didn't

realize it.

Um,

and and uh

but any anyway, I I just

I totally feel

for the business owners and

uh

uh and I I do

agree with your HOA analogy.

Um, [clears throat] but uh

but anyway,

um we'll see how this goes. Um,

I I don't think there's anything we can

bring different

the third reading to change anybody. But

um

uh but that's just my opinion, but we'll

keep trying.

So, thank you.

>> Yeah, go ahead, Vice Mayor.

>> Thank you, Mayor.

Um, so again, want to reiterate I hope

to see

the uh y'all again uh want to hear more

from you and other like-minded folks. I

also want to make sure you're aware I

don't see it on my um calendar, so I

hope I'm not misinforming you. I'm I

would encourage you to reach out to

[DDA staff] with the DDA.

Uh, she usually joins us, uh but uh

uh

she's not here this evening, so reach

out to her to confirm, but we typically

have our DDA meeting the second Thursday

of every month, 11:30 at City Works

Cafe. That means our meeting would be

next Thursday, the 13th, preceding our

next regular meeting where we'll have

the third reading. So, um

if you're able to make it and if we for

sure are meeting that day, again, I'd

confirm Oh, sorry, it's the 12th

actually. Uh, so confirm with Melissa

that we have a meeting that day, but uh

we should, 11:30

uh City Works DDA would welcome y'all to

come speak during the public comment

period of that meeting as well cuz uh

certainly it's perspectives uh uh again,

everyone around that table um is giving

me the same feedback, but would welcome

alternative perspectives uh and and

forward to a conversation potentially at

that board meeting as well. Thank you.

>> Yeah. Councilor Pollock.

>> Thank you. I I'll be a yes on this

tonight. I did

did

change course after understanding that

to me a two-week postponement there

wasn't much to

research that would present us with any

options that that I might

be willing to support an amendment or

bring forward an amendment. So

so I didn't feel like the postponement

was necessary. But I do intend to keep

working this over the next two weeks and

so I'll reach out to you guys and we'll

chat some more and yeah, I'll keep I'll

keep working and keep trying to gather

input from folks before we get to third

reading. So

>> Anybody else?

Okay, there's no further discussion.

Please cast your vote on the amendment

ordinance itself.

Please record the vote.

>> With councilors Haskins, Jensen, and

Sweeney voting nay and all others voting

aye

the motion passes.

>> Thank you, gentlemen, for coming down.

We appreciate it. Thank you.

Please read the ordinance on second

reading by title only.

>> An ordinance creating chapter 5.80

simulcasting and of the Casper municipal

code.

>> Thank you. The chair will entertain a

motion to approve on second reading the

ordinance just read.

>> So moved.

>> Second.

>> Moved by Councilor Pollock, seconded by

Sweeney.

Council will now listen to public

comment. Anybody wish to speak on this

ordinance reading?

Any discussion from the council?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye the

motion passes.

>> Please read the ordinance on third

reading by title only.

>> An ordinance approving an annexation

annexation agreement and zoning for a

0.5 acre portion of a tract located on Bryan-Evansville Road.

>> Should we entertain a motion to approve

on third reading the ordinance just

read?

Moved by Councilor Sweeney, seconded by

Councilor Haskins. Um at this time we'll

listen to public comment. Anybody wish

to speak on this?

Any discussion or amendments? Yeah.

>> So mayor, it seems like

this is a very long process

um and I think we've been going through

this now in different iterations

close to 2 months at least. I haven't

actually looked back.

Uh

but is there no way to streamline these

things?

>> I'll look at our city manager and

attorney.

>> Mayor, councilors, so certainly can

appreciate the

the the the time it takes, but I I do

think that we're following state statute

in terms of what it what is required.

These

recent annexations I think have been

fairly small, single lots um and so not

a lot a lot of controversy and so I I

think it might seem like a a lot of time

spent on something that that's fairly

simple. Um but I think there's a reason

that that due process is built in and if

we ever had a larger annexation it would

allow for

uh broad [clears throat] public input uh

of of you know multiple people that were

affected. So um

I'm unaware of ways that we could

streamline it. I can certainly get with

staff and see, but I think there's a

reason we do it the way we do it.

>> [laughter]

>> Yeah, vice mayor.

>> Uh thank you mayor. Uh yeah

to kind of uh

um tag along with what the city attorney

said. Um, these ones are obviously

pretty benign and not controversial, but

I was reading just yesterday of a very

controversial annexation in Cheyenne uh

with the [business] stuff. So yeah,

obviously down there our colleagues in

Cheyenne

um need plenty of opportunity for public

comment for an annexation under those

sort of circumstances. And so um kind of

got to play by the rules for all of

them. And so that's why I

it is it does get tedious, but in the

case we get to a point where we have a

more controversial annexation in our

community, I think it's important to

protect those opportunities for the

public to weigh in. Thank you.

>> Any other discussion?

Okay, no amendments. Please cast your

vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Please read the ordinance on third

reading by title only.

>> An ordinance approving an an annexation,

final plat, subdivision agreement, and

zoning for the [name redacted] Addition

subdivision.

>> Chair would entertain a motion to um to

approve on third reading the ordinance

just read.

Moved by Councilor [name unclear], Councilor Bond.

Council will now listen to public

comment. Anybody wish to speak to this

third reading?

Okay, any discussion from the council?

Amendments?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Please read the ordinance on third

reading by title only.

>> An ordinance repealing and replacing

Title 15 of the Casper

municipal co- coding and construction

regulations, adopting current model

codes and local amendments.

>> Thank you. The chair would entertain a

motion to approve on third reading the

ordinance just read.

Moved by Councilor Pollock, by Councilor

Bond. Madam City Manager, do you have

anything?

>> Um, thank you, Mayor. I did. I wanted to

just address a couple points that have

popped up in the last few days and

hopefully clarify these aspects of the

ordinance.

You did receive an email update,

councilors, but in the event that you

were unable to read that email, I wanted

to cover this item.

The proposed ordinance of course does

not require subcontractors to obtain a

license when they're working under a

homeowner or a general contractor's

building permit. We did email that

clarification [snorts] today in response

to some discussion that we were aware

of.

Further,

with respect to on a second note, with

respect to concrete flatwork, flatwork

which of course includes patios,

driveways, walkways, that sort of thing,

it is not currently licensed, permitted,

or inspected under the municipal code.

And the item in front of you tonight, if

approved, will not change that fact.

Contractors who do flatwork today will

be able to keep operating the way they

do now when working for homeowners and

general contractors.

What will change if you approve this

ordinance with respect to concrete

flatwork is that those folks who would

want to get a license in Casper will be

able to do so.

So for instance, those that are licensed

in other jurisdictions would be able to

take advantage of the reciprocity

allowance in order to become licensed in

Casper. And in some cases, these folks

also want that license so they can begin

building a portfolio of

documenting their experience

if they are aspiring to get structural

concrete or general contractor licenses.

So that's what will change. That's what

will not change if you approve this and

that's the current state of play for the

subcontractor licensing

requirements. Thank you.

>> Thank you.

At this time, council will now listen to

public comment. Anybody wish speak to

this?

>> Good evening, mayor, council.

Uh [speaker] here on behalf of the

Central Wyoming of Realtors. Just three

items that we want to talk about

tonight, and I realize this is going to

pass, but the three areas that we want

to talk about, first of all, are

um education requirements. We're all

behind education, and it's needed in

almost everything that we do. Yeah, as

Realtors, we have 45 hours every three

years that we're required to have

education-wise.

Uh 21 of those hours are required, and

then there another 24 are um electives.

The thing about it is though is that

the commission knows they have approved

courses, and if you go to get elective

uh courses, you have to have that

approved before you can take the course.

And and then you can take the course and

get credit for it.

In this situation, it doesn't seem like

that's been thought out. It

It's been talked about that you could go

to lunch with a representative, you can

have that discussion about whatever

product they're selling, and then if

somebody signs off on it, you're good to

go.

Who knows what takes place in those

conversations?

So the way we look at it is that you

need to make sure there it needs to be a

some mechanism in place that shows that

there are approved courses um

that would be done. So we just ask you

to look at that.

Secondly, with the uh

contractor all these contracting license

that are being put out there now, you're

talking about drywall and flatwork and

and so on and so forth.

Uh

what if you're either working under a

contractor or you're working under a

homeowner, you're not required to have

them. So there it's optional whether you

have them or not. If you're trying to

put a mechanism in place where somebody

can that wants to be a general

contractor would follow that, then maybe

you should have one single license that

allows people to do that.

Because I don't know of anything else.

If If you're not working under a

contract and you're not working under a

homeowner, what other reason would there

be to have a contractor's license out

there? I mean, those are the two that

you work under.

And then the the final thing that we

want to bring up is it's been discussed

that if you're a homeowner

occupying a house,

you can pull your own permits and do

your own work.

If you're a property owner and you don't

live in the house, you have to have a

general contractor come in and do that.

And I think one of the during the work

session, one of the things that was

talked about is that

that takes a liability uh and it puts it

onto the contractor itself. A homeowner

is not going to lose that liability.

They're always going to be liable for

whatever happens on that property.

And then you had

[owner] come up here, who owns a

commercial building, and clarify that he

could still be a general contractor.

Help me make sense of that in in in a

sense. I'll use you, Mr. Mayor, as an

example.

If Ray owns a house that he lives in, he

can pull a permit to work on it.

If Ray owns a piece of property that

he's going to renovate or he's going to

rent out,

he has to have a contractor come in and

do that work.

If Ray owns an eight-story building

downtown, he can be a general

contractor.

Makes sense to me as to why that is.

We had discussions that were brought up

about the MGM hotel burning down. Uh

there was another

discussion about insulation inside of a

nightclub where pyrotechnics were set

off and it burned and a lot of people

died. Commercial businesses.

Same thing that [owner] runs here.

Commercial businesses. Some of them

being eight stories tall, hundreds of

office spaces.

So, if

if Ray fixes his house that he lives in

and it burns down, sorry, Ray. You're a

great guy, but great knowing you.

If Ray does that to a property that he

has and somebody gets hurt in it, it's

not a good thing. You should have a

general contractor involved.

But if Ray owns an eight-story building

downtown and something happens during

the day and hundreds of people die in

that, it's okay. You could be your

general contractor.

We don't understand why that makes

sense. If you're not wanting people to

renovate properties, then put a license

in place

to where they go through the process

you're you're talking about

and have them

get a license that way.

The problem with some of this stuff is

that you're putting a lot of this these

in place and people are going to not

going to, people do. And

I know the staff knows this cuz I had

one of them call me within the last year

asking me about a property if it'd been

renovated and I'm like, yeah, looking at

it right in our system, completely

renovated.

But it still had code violations on it.

No permits were pulled on it and I don't

know whatever happened with it, but the

point being is people are going to stop

pulling permits.

And I know I'm out of time.

>> Yeah, thanks, [speaker]. Appreciate it.

Any questions?

Yeah, go ahead, Councilor Sweeney.

>> Thank you, Mayor.

So, thank you

[speaker] in ending

uh

Central Wyoming

in

uh

>> Board of Realtors, yes.

>> in how many realtors is that?

>> Well, we just added three three more

counties

to it. So, we're at 400 plus now.

>> Yeah.

Thank you.

And I appreciate the concerns um

in

do you think

uh

this

needs additional work or

just clarifications

tonight's third reading, so

>> Well,

I [clears throat] understand it's third

reading and I think there are things

that

that I mean you're going to pass that's

going to be a horrible thing to pass,

but there are things that need to be

looked at and and worked over

in my opinion.

Like you know there's these questions

here that come up that's you know

explain to people because there's people

out there that what I just explained

between the three different instances it

doesn't make sense. It doesn't make

sense that we don't worry about you in

your own home. We do worry about you if

you endanger a single family, but then

we don't worry about it again if you if

you have hundreds of people in an

apartment building. And I get it. It's

not it's an or not an apartment

building, but an office building and I

get it. They don't sleep in an office

building.

You sleep at home. More things could

probably happen at home than happen in

an office building.

But at the end of the day the examples

that have been given have been

commercial instances where

people have died.

Period.

And it just doesn't it didn't make sense

to us

that the homeowner you're okay and a

commercial person you're okay, but

anybody in the middle you're not.

Honestly it looks like you know if

you're somebody that's working on their

own rental property or you're renovating

your property then you're being singled

out to where you have to have a

contractor involved.

If there's a reason behind that great I

but we'd love to hear what it is.

>> Um yeah Councilor Haskins.

>> I think it would be probably pretty safe

to say that [building official] really regrets saying

lunch with a product person.

That said as someone who typically has

medical supply people coming to my

office saying hey can we do lunch

y'all doesn't allow that, but we do

allow them to come in with the products

and

yes, they're educational.

The process of deciding the education

it's going to be good. I'm sure of it.

There are a lot of things online and

also clearly his point was that he

that the building

department will

grant

some leniency in regards to what that

education looks like. I'm going to try

to put it that way.

That said, I

definitely did not catch that part about

commercial and being able to do it

without being a general contractor.

And no offense to Senator, I

I absolutely am going to bring that one

up after this passes if I'm still here

in January. So have no fear. I also took

issue with that part not being changed.

Sorry, [building official]. I'm coming at you. I want

another one. But today I think this

one's pretty good. And I did ask to have

the red line version and everything sent

out to every contractor and every person

and I still got no feedback. So I do

think as a whole this is really good.

And yes, maybe we can add a couple

conditions and I am going to ask for

that because I do agree with that, but

I think it's not the worst thing we've

ever started with for point A and I

think it'll get better

as we pass it.

>> If I might just add to that, you know,

if there's a reason behind it

most certainly we

what that reason behind it is. There

could be something that's very

justifiable that

we're not missing or you know, we're not

getting or not don't understand. So

>> Anybody else?

You want something right? Yeah.

>> Um

yeah, [clears throat] I mean on that on

that note, I guess we have the privilege

of having our

building official here and so I guess

for the sake of clarification for

everyone in the room and because this is

the third reading, I would love to hear

any additional context

if that's appropriate.

>> When we go to

we'll go away from discussion then we'll

come into council discussion

um

one of the city

employees.

Yep.

Anything else for

[speaker]?

Yeah, go ahead, Councilor [name unclear].

>> Just real quick, Mayor. [speaker], thanks

for being here. I appreciate your

comments and for [clears throat] being

here last time as well. I know you've

put some thought into this. I do I do

have to say I agree with your comments

about the continuing education. I I

would like to see perhaps some

quality control go into those

those continuing ed requirements. I I

think that's important.

Or if we don't, you know, kind of what

what the alternative is

[clears throat] if if not. But

I think that's a a valid point.

And also I think to your point of

about the the

property,

an office building, you know, not

needing a general contractor and so

forth it.

And I

what I kind of took away from

[owner]'s comments last week or last

time was

he was kind of, you know, buyer beware

kind of thing that you you kind of at

the mercy of of the the people doing the

work.

To me, I mean, I'm, you know, I

my orientation is that it's more

you know, there's a lot of

instances where if if I don't hire a

contractor

for my office building, Ray's office Ray

doesn't hire a contractor for his

building,

[laughter] let's let's go there. Let's

go with that.

>> Just use that. Use my building.

>> That, you know, ultimately Ray's, you

know, and people die or people are

injured, you know, as the building

owner, you know, Ray's liable, you know,

for for negligence or, you know,

incompetence or whatever. And I don't

know if

that's something as an owner I would

want to tackle.

I would want to err on the side of

caution and hire myself a general

contractor who is a professional at this

and

you know, kind of

hopefully at least have

demonstrated that I've done some kind of

diligence to make sure that the work is

quality and is safe and so forth. So

that's kind of what but I would I would

look forward to

hearing whatever [building official] has to say as

well.

Thank you again, [speaker].

>> Thank you.

Anybody else?

Okay.

>> Thanks. Appreciate it, man.

>> Yep.

>> Anybody else who wishes to speak

about this?

>> Mayor, councilors.

Just wanted to reiterate that I'm a

general contractor licensed in Casper,

classification two.

Um

along [speaker]'s points that there is

a discrepancy between being a homeowner,

you can pull your own permit.

>> you say your name? I'm sorry.

>> sorry. [speaker].

Um

there's a discrepancy

between homeowners being able to pull

their own permits even though they may

or may not have the the knowledge

needed, which that affects them.

The reason I got my general contractor's

license was I was working for my former

employer as his property manager.

And under that, I was having to do the

maintenance, meaning I needed to be

licensed. I had the experience, so I

became licensed. Through the course of

getting my license, it would have been

easier had I had my drywaller's license

because that question was asked. Why

were you not licensed? Because Casper

didn't offer it.

Casper missed the opportunity to have me

be licensed

where I was already doing the job,

already had the training, all of those

things. So

as councilor Haskins pointed out,

that is something that needs to be

further

in all of this because that is a very

important thing that there is a huge

discrepancy. I can go work on someone

else's house and I'm totally legit. I

can work on my own house. I'm totally

legit.

Mayor, you however cannot come work on

my house because you don't have a

license. But what you do in your own

house,

it doesn't matter. And I think that that

it causes issues in the neighborhood,

[clears throat] excuse me, when there's

people trying to go in and do work that

they shouldn't necessarily be doing.

Because if a catastrophe happens in

their home, it does affect the

properties that are right there next to

them, and it could affect an entire

neighborhood depending on what the

problem is.

So that's all I wanted to add.

>> Any questions?

Thanks. Appreciate it.

Anybody else?

Okay.

Let's go ahead and move on to

discussions

or amendments.

Bring it up to the floor. Yep.

Councilor Sweeney.

>> Thank you, Mayor.

So

this is

very

similar, if not exact,

amendment

that I made on second reading, but

I move to amend ordinance number 15-26

by striking all provisions repealing and

replacing title 15 of the Casper

municipal code

and substituting therefore an amendment

[clears throat] limited to section 15-

28.010

National Electrical Code adopted,

updating the city's adopted

electrical code

to the

NFPA

70-2026

National Electrical Code.

All other provisions of title 15 shall

remain in full force and effect as

currently codified.

If I get a second,

I'll further discuss.

>> Is there a second for Councilor

Sweeney's motion?

Okay, I have a second on the floor.

Let's discussion

on this.

You bet.

>> Mayor and council,

the reason I'm proposing this twofold

uh

is to keep us in compliance with state

requirements.

And I would draw your attention to the

914 memo from the city manager's office

to the final question that I had

um at that point in time. Is there any

reason uh the hearing and reading dates

for this

ordinance could not occur after hunting

season?

And I I'll I'll just read this because

it

doesn't really pertain to the hunting

season.

Um the state of Wyoming adopted adopted

the 2026 National Electrical Code on

July 1st, 2026.

State statute requires municipalities

follow suit within 6 months of the

adoption date.

This adoption is incorporated into the

title 15 repeal and replacement.

Therefore, we have set a time frame to

schedule out the public hearing and

reading dates. Staff suggests that we

stay the course to ensure that we meet

our 6-month time frame.

[unclear] amendment accomplishes

this.

It would update our current title 15

with the title with the 2026 National

Electrical Code

and leave everything else in place.

Second,

I now believe

that

um I I I think I've had almost all the

questions

uh answered

with the exception of

I did not get an answer to my question

about

where can I find in the updated redline

version

um on the definition of renovation.

Um and I did not get an answer to

uh from the city manager's office.

Uh but

so I believe that we need to take out

the subcontractor categories out of this

and eliminate at the same time for those

folks that can continuing education for

these same categories.

These in particular have created a lot

of confusion with these companies, some

of which have been doing business in

Casper

for a number of generations, not just a

couple of weeks or a couple of years.

These categories as

um that that I believe

need taken out

uh which would allow us that time time

frame to do that

is um

the contract concrete contractor

flatwork

concrete contractor general

drywall contractor framing contractor

and insulation contractor.

Mayor and Council, I do not ask this to

try and drag this out nor am I bringing

this up out of spite

but I am trying to do my my best from

the phone calls that I have gotten

that I am getting from my constituents

who I know you are all concerned with

also.

We are all just trying to do what is

right

by our contractors and our city

governments

at large. I don't care to take another

tongue lashing from council or staff. So

Mayor, I will turn this back over to you

and for additional comments.

>> Thank you.

Any discussion other discussion on this

amendment on the floor?

Yeah, go ahead Councilor.

>> Just to clarify

>> the amendment. It's um

just to go back to the um adopting the

most recent code

and we would address

the the further changes that you would

like to see

removing the specific subcontractor

licenses

in a subsequent part, right? So this is

again splitting

the ordinance but not addressing the

subcontractor licenses tonight. Is that

right?

Thank you.

>> Others?

Okay.

Let's go ahead and

cast your vote on the

proposed

amendment from

Please record the vote.

>> With councilors Dunson, McIntosh, and

Sweeney voting aye and all others voting

nay, the motion fails.

>> Okay.

Uh is there any other

further discussion or amendment?

Sweeney, do you have any other

amendments or

anything else? Okay.

Oh, yes, sorry. Now we go to discussion

of the ordinance. Let's go ahead and go

into the uh

discussion into um the ordinance itself.

So I'll open that up.

>> Uh thank you. Over the last couple of

weeks, I was able to touch base with a

few more folks. Um

did do feel like we got I got a little

bit more substantive

of information uh some people who just

do have some concerns and I think I

I've come to a better understanding of

what they are. For for my standpoint,

most of those are probably

dealt with more at the

um implementation level and this in the

staff kind of process level more than

the ordinance level. Um so I feel that

we've gotten to a point I feel

comfortable passing this tonight, but um

in in recognition of some of the things

that were brought up to me, I uh I heard

[speaker] echoed the sentiment tonight.

Um I heard from additional people about

um that there's concern that the the CTE

or continuing education requirements

feel too

open-ended. Um they folks who work in

other jurisdictions, other states um

have suggested that there's quite a

structured process and and maybe that's

defined um in staff um you know at the

staff level or maybe that's yet to be

defined, but um quite a structured

process where it's it's quite clear

what counts, what doesn't count, what um

you know what gets you how many hours

and that sort of thing and and so it's a

framework that people are able to

understand and able to um you know they

know what's required of them and

and so I think certainly be

um

I I think that that would put a lot of

the community um more at ease knowing

really specifically what is going to

count, what's not going to count, and

what the expectations are I think is a

good thing and um so look forward to

seeing how the approach will be on the

rollout of that.

Um and then I think additionally

there there was um concern brought up

about

uh this being there there are so many

licenses now and that creating you know

while it creates pathways and

flexibility it also creates this kind of

massive list that that may not be as

user friendly as we like it to be and so

I think efforts to clarify all of that

um for contractors and folks who may be

interested in the licenses would be a

good thing. I also

would be interested in kind of checking

in here in a little while after it's had

time to

um to run its course and and be

implemented. So I I think you know we we

went through quite a lot of effort

around the handyman license and I think

we've only issued like a tiny handful of

them and so

that also raises the question for me

like are these licenses

useful? Um and so if we add a whole host

more I would be interested in some

future analysis of like are they useful?

Are they helpful or are they just

creating

layers of bureaucracy that actually are

not being utilized by the community. So

I think those are

some of the things like I said, I don't

think that really pertains to the

language of the ordinance or what the

decision in front of us are tonight, but

more on the implementation front. But I

just wanted to relay to staff and to the

community that those are the things that

I heard in my subsequent discussions

with folks and

you know, again, not enough to to move

me and think that we're going the wrong

direction with this ordinance by any

means, but definitely I think worth

note. So I'll be a yes, but wanted to

put that on record. Thanks.

>> Others on this?

Okay.

I I am going to be a yes and I

said

I've talked about this often

why one obviously it's a it's a large

change obviously, but it's but it's I

thought it's thoughtful in the sense of

the work that the staff did. I've been

certainly supportive of that. Second

part of it is is that I that I also and

I appreciate Councilor Pollock

having some outreach from other

contractors and other individuals. I

mentioned this to

to [speaker] out there.

Part of it is is that I that I have not

heard a lot from other

contractors and other individuals that

have come out and and had said anything

to me.

And they have just I have not had that

and quite the contrary to the other

side, I've had many contractors that

have told me reached out and said we're

in support of this.

And so to me that framework is a is a is

a very

pragmatic approach to understanding that

I as a lay person

also understanding our staff, also

understanding professionals that are not

coming here to to have these

conversations of concern. And so when I

see that then I look at it from a

pragmatic approach to say that this is a

good policy.

And and I think seeing many policies

over the years that we've come into

where we see a lot of people that are

worried about things that come out of

policy from from the city standpoint or

from government um tend to be good

policy and then we have to do some

shifting and we have to do some ideas of

what we need to be able to to be more

nimble.

Um so I'm a yes um on this third reading

and I'm glad we're going to be moving

forward with it and thank you for the

staff for your hard work um in what

you've done today. Okay, thank you so

much.

Yes.

>> Sorry, I probably should have jumped in

earlier uh but now that we're in

discussion phase I was hoping maybe we

could hear from our building official

on regards to the concern brought up by

uh [speaker] earlier the distinction

between commercial property owner doing

work versus somebody doing residential

work not primary residence. Thank you.

>> Okay, thank you Mayor and councilors.

So the way the ordinance reads uh it

obviously allows homeowners who reside

in the residence to do any work pull

permits for any work they wish to do.

Commercial is just that commercial.

We don't have residential we don't have

then rental and then commercial. We have

residential single family that you live

in and we have commercial.

So rental properties are commercial

so is a commercial building.

Owners of both are allowed to do up to

10%

square footage wise

of renovation work

the intent of that is if you have a

tenant that destroys the house

you can go in and do some drywall repair

paint carpet

get the building back up to a an

occupiable standard count.

Anything above 10% requires a licensed

contractor.

So

a nine story office building

if you're going to remodel say more than

one suite you're going to need a

licensed contractor.

A residential property that you're

renting if you want to do a bathroom

remodel kitchen remodel you're going to

need a licensed contractor. So

that is the way the ordinance is

written. It's it hasn't changed from the

original version. Um

what is being proposed now is the same

exact verbage.

So that has not changed enforcement of

it, is it going to change?

Uh

Yeah. So hope that answers the question

and helps clear up some of that

confusion.

If not, I can try to delve deeper and

explain it a little bit more clear.

>> Go ahead, Councilor Pawlik.

>> Yeah, thanks. Just a point of

clarification. So um when

uh [owner] mentioned

at the last meeting that he is

acting as his own general contractor,

that

is a a license that he has?

>> So thank you for the question. So Mr.

Eide typically does one suite at a time

to stay in that

ballpark so that he does not have to

hire licensed contractors.

Um

when he does exceed the 10% he has to

have licensed personnel do it.

>> Yeah, go please.

>> So somebody with a rental property could

take a similar approach and just

just do

small projects at a time rather than a

full

>> So we we do try to keep track.

So say you do 10% here, 10% here. By the

time we're done we have a 50,000 sq ft

commercial building that's been 100%

renovated.

We still keep track of those 10 percents

um and when you hit the 50% mark by the

International Building Code standards

you have to bring the entire building up

to code. So

we try to direct those people to be

cautious because we last thing we want

is for them to

remodel half of building and then have

to go tear half of a building they just

remodeled up to bring the entire

building up to code. So

that is where we we as staff try to

guide

property owners so that they are aware

of the consequences of what what they're

wanting to do.

>> Any other questions for [building official]?

Yeah, go ahead, Councilor Sweeney.

>> So uh

a number of years

we were

hosting

a conference. I think it was

state

fire marshals and

other

code enforcement. I can't remember the

exact name of the group.

And I had

one of our maintenance persons

in the men's bathroom

changing a ball been a fluorescent light

fixture.

And a state official

actually

I did get cited.

And then I called

for the changing of the light bulb

because I didn't have a licensed

contractor.

So

and anyway, thankfully

I got a hold of [staff], asked him

to come over and try to clarify.

And so

I didn't

we probably a hotel has a thousand plus

light light bulbs. And

I just use that as a particular instance

of some of my concerns on any of these

codes updated.

But

I I'm I'm sure I

would find the same

type of resolution

with our our building department,

you know, if that case arose.

I I should be able as building owner

to

change light bulbs without a licensed

contractor, even though that might be

uh 10% of the overall building.

Uh

I I just wondered if that's kind of

covered in here.

>> So thank you

uh Councilor Sweeney. So

in your example that would be considered

maintenance. If you're just replacing a

fluorescent bulb

that is maintenance that doesn't require

a permit, doesn't require a license. I

don't know why you were cited for that

because you as a business owner are

allowed to do that. Now if we are

changing light fixtures, replacing a

fluorescent fixture entirely out

that would require a licensed

professional to do.

So

in your scenario you would be doing

nothing wrong in changing light bulbs.

You could change every fluorescent light

bulb in the building out uh as

maintenance

with a a a maintenance man who is not

licensed.

>> Anything else for [building official]?

All right. Thank you. Appreciate it.

>> And I did Sorry, I did one I did want to

uh address the continuing education. We

will be working on a

system uh a plan as we roll out as far

as

what we are going to allow. We're going

to provide contractors lists of areas

where they can

obtain the continuing education and we

are going to define that so that it

isn't just

out in the open and kind of do whatever

you want. And I do regret

my uh my comment about the lunch

[laughter] training.

Um

but any any uh documentation that comes

in that is not on a certificate is going

to be through an affidavit which is a

legal document.

So it's not just going to be where

someone can write a hand letter saying I

was with so and so.

We talked about this for 4 hours and

that's their continuing ed. So it's

going to be a uh a legal affidavit uh

documenting their continuing education.

>> Thank you, [building official]. Appreciate your time.

>> Thank you.

>> Okay, if there's no further discussion

or amendments, please cast your vote on

the ordinance on third reading.

Please record the vote.

>> With councilors Jensen, McIntosh, and

Sweeney voting nay and all others voting

aye, the motion passes.

>> Thank you everyone.

Please read the ordinance on

Council will now discuss the resolution

regarding a wastewater treatment plant

UV equipment procurement.

Because this is not on the consent

agenda, it will be open for discussion

by the council. Please read the

resolution by title only.

>> Authorizing a procurement of goods

agreement with [vendor] for the

Sam H. Hobbs wastewater treatment plant

UV equipment procurement project.

>> Chair to entertain a motion to approve

the resolution just read.

Moved by councilor Pollock, seconded by

councilor McIntosh. Uh Madam City

Manager, do you have anything to report?

>> Um I do not. Nothing additional beyond

what we've already provided, which was

fairly substantial.

>> Thank you. Any discussion from the

council on this one?

Okay, any amendments?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Council will now discuss the resolution

regarding a work authorization agreement

for the new metro animal shelter.

Because this is not on the consent

agenda,

uh we uh will be open for discussion by

the council. Please read the resolution

by title only.

>> Authorizing work authorization number

one agreement

for the agreement with [vendor] for

construct

tion management services for animal

shelter project.

>> Thank you. Chair to entertain a motion

to approve the resolution just read.

Moved by councilor McIntosh, seconded

by councilor Bond. Uh Madam City

Manager, do you have anything to report

on this?

>> Nothing additional, mayor.

>> Uh discussion from

>> the council on this?

[clears throat]

Any amendments?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Council will now discuss the resolution

regarding amendment one to the grant

agreement with the Division of State

Parks, Historic Sites and Trails.

Because this is not on the consent

agenda, it will be open for discussion

by the council. Please read the

resolution by title only.

>> Authorizing amendment one to the grant

agreement between the State of Wyoming

Department of State Parks and Cultural

Resources Division of State Parks

Historic Sites and Trails and the City

of Casper.

>> Thank you. The chair will entertain a

motion just read.

Moved by Councilor Pollock, seconded by

Councilor McIntosh. Madam City Manager,

do you have anything?

>> I do not.

>> Thank you. Any discussion from the

council?

Yes, Councilor [name unclear].

>> Um,

mayor, through you, if I understand,

councilor, I believe the item you're

referring to is further in the consent

resolutions with respect to the

pedestrian bridge. And I apologize

because I just

uh lost the packet. It closed down. and

reopening it, and

you all know how substantial it is. So,

um [laughter] I don't have at my

fingertips what I would hope to have for

your question.

>> Any other discussion?

Okay. Any amendments?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Thank you. Council will now consider

consent resolutions. Please read the

consent resolutions by title only.

>> 10B1 authorizing an agreement with Rocky

Mountain Reclamation LLC for

for the old land project. 10B2

authorizing a procurement agreement with

[vendor] for procurement of a

Baylor dust collector system.

10B3 authorizing a contract for

professional services

with [vendor] for

professional laundry services for the

city of Casper.

10B4 authorizing a perpetual license

agreement with [owner] for wall alley lighting in relation

to the city's downtown alley paving

project.

10B5 authorizing change order number two

to the agreement with [vendor] for the downtown alley

paving project.

10B6 approving the alcohol, tobacco, and

kratom inspection contract between the

Wyoming Association of Sheriffs and

Chiefs of Police and the Casper Police

Department for the enforcement of

alcohol, tobacco, and kratom compliance

inspections.

10B7 authorizing a contract for

professional services with [vendor] for the

FY27 Priority Water Main Improvements

Project. 11B8 authorizing change order

number two to the agreement with [vendor] for the North Platte

River Pedestrian Bridge Project.

10B9 authorizing the acceptance of the

2026

BG BJA Edward Byrne Memorial Justice

Assistance Discretionary Community

Project Grant Funds in the total amount

of $828,000.

10B10 authorizing contract amendment

number one to the agreement with [vendor]

to the contract for professional

services for the North Platte River

pedestrian bridge.

10B11 approving a donation agreement

between the Fort Casper Museum

Association and the city of Casper for a

ride-on train to be located on the

grounds of the Fort Casper Museum.

And 10B12 authorizing a termination of

use restrictions for lots 16, 17, 18 and

19 Block 1 Casper Addition upon

completion of the CH Bixby hotel

project.

>> Thank you. The chair would entertain a

motion to adopt the consent agenda items

just read.

Moved by Councilor McIntosh, seconded by

Councilor Pollock. Madam City Manager,

do you have anything to comment on any

of these items?

>> Um Mayor, I would just note if I I'm

going to come back to Councilor [name unclear]'s

question. I think you were asking as to

the deadlines that we are working under

for the pedestrian bridge.

Um so we are we believe going to achieve

those deadlines, which of course are

essential and are tied to some of the

funding and the grants that come with

it. Um it is definitely

um a tight process in particular as

we're working through some modifications

to Rocky Mountain power infrastructure

in the vicinity of the bridge placement.

So with that in mind, I will just leave

it there. I know it's getting late, but

I would invite you certainly give me a

call if you have specific questions

this week. I'd be happy to break it

down.

>> Thank you.

No speeds there. Any abstentions or nay

votes?

Please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With all councilors voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Please read the consent minute action

titles.

>> 11A1

authorized new rotary blade wide area

mower in the total amount of $77,520

for use by the Athletics Division of the

Parks, Recreation and Public Facilities

Department. 11 a 2 authorizing the

purchase of one new utility tractor with

54-in verticutter in the total amount of

$65,600

for use by the Weed and Pest Division of

the Parks, Recreation and Public

Facilities Department. 11 a 3

authorizing the purchase of one new

front end wheel loader in the total

amount of $351,254

for use by the Solid Waste Division of

the Public Services Department.

11 a 4 authorizing the purchase of one

new heavy duty cab and chassis truck

with forestry body in the total amount

of $125,333

and 94 cents for use by the Weed and

Pest Division of the Parks, Recreation

and Public Facilities Department.

11 a 5 authorizing the purchase of one

new compact track loader skid steer and

the total amount of $82,830

$830.60

for use by the Streets and Traffic

Division of the Public Services

Department. 11 a 6 authorizing the

purchase of one new vacuum street

sweeper and the total amount of $358,535

for use by the Streets and Traffic

Division of the Public Services

Department.

11 a 7 approving an additional

non-operational one-year extension for

retail liquor license number [licensee] located on South Center Street.

11 a 8 authorizing the purchase of one

new mid-size pickup in the total amount

of $29,600

$696

for use by the Casper Police Department.

11 a 9 authorizing the purchase of eight

new mid-size police interceptor

all-wheel drive utility vehicles and the

total amount of $367,640

for use by the Casper Police Department

and 11A-10 authorizing the purchase of

two new mid-size pickups in the total

amount of $73,298

for use by the Casper Police Department.

>> Thank you. The chair entertains a motion

to approve the consent minute action

agenda

items just read.

Moved by Councilor Sweeney, seconded by

Councilor Bond. Any abstentions or nay

votes?

>> Yeah, I'd like to abstain from item

11A-7 please.

>> Any other abstentions?

Okay, please cast your vote.

Please record the vote.

>> With Councilor Pollock's abstention

noted and all others voting aye, the

motion passes.

>> Okay, thank you everyone. At this time,

we ask councilors to bring forward any

relevant concerns or items of interest.

Now I'll we'll start with Councilor [name unclear].

Thank you. Councilor

Councilor Sweeney.

>> Um

so I just wish folks luck tonight

um

and more than luck.

I hope you succeed

in your endeavors and

we probably will know in about an hour

and a half probably.

But

but

that's all I've got tonight.

>> Thank you.

Councilor Pollock.

>> Thank you. I concur with Councilor

Sweeney on that

uh sentiment and um I would add draw

people's attention to the groundbreaking

at Metro Tuesday two days from now 4:30

p.m. at the future site which will be

adjacent to the current metro building.

Uh really big milestone. If you didn't

catch the update that the mayor gave

last week about it, this is um

I mean it's not the beginning of this

project and this project has been

underway for quite some time sort of

behind the scenes and in in the in the

planning phases and in the um contract

phases and working with the

um the contractor and the construction

manager at risk that we'll be using. So

all of those pieces have have the

groundwork has been laid and we finally

get to break ground on this new

facility. Really very pleased to have

have come to this point. So invite

anybody who um would like to come and

celebrate the milestone to come to Metro

at 4:30 on Thursday.

That's all. Thanks.

>> Thank you.

Councilor Haskins.

>> I don't think I have anything other than

hey guys it's flu season get your flu

shot. There's my plug for the day. I

forgot that last time.

>> Councilor Jensen.

>> [laughter]

>> Get out of here.

>> Councilor Councilor McIntosh.

Vice Mayor.

>> Thank you Mayor. I'll make mine quick.

[clears throat] I had a Homelessness

Coalition meeting last Wednesday.

Um

um

our City Attorney who joins us at those

discussed a slight amendment to our

camping ordinance to allow officers to

act in the cases that a property owner

is actually allowing transient and

unsafe behavior to uncur occur on their

property. So I imagine we'll be seeing

that at some point in the future.

Uh Collective Health Trust and Community

Action Partnership are working with

stakeholders like the Rescue Mission to

help with fortifying their trespassing

policy and providing wrap around

services to folks who are not eligible

for shelter there. So again um just

trying not to let people slip through

the cracks while also respecting the

boundaries that many of these service

providers put in place for the

you know health and safety of their

staff and other residents.

January 13th there will be a community

conversation at the library about the

book uh when you walk by.

Uh lunch meeting it's a lunch meeting so

food will be provided. Uh so would

encourage people to put that on their

calendar if they're interested and I

believe the Rescue Mission has those

books. Uh if you're interested in

reading otherwise, uh you know, our

Natrona County Public Library I believe

also has a healthy stock of them.

[a police captain] gave a report on the

uptick in crimes like shoplifting,

disorderly conduct, and public intox.

said it's mostly the result of a group

of you know, five or six folks that have

made their way to our community. So uh

we'll address that on an as needed

basis.

We did a survey of all the members of

that group to gauge what they see as the

biggest successes from that group and

what the work should look like going

forward.

Um it was mentioned uh you know, some of

the outcomes so far are better

collaboration better collaboration

between stakeholders, more meaningful

data points, the rocket docket, which is

kind of the the high utilizers, making

sure that we're targeting our services

towards the folks that are demanding the

most uh in the way of services, and the

city's camping ordinance were all

highlighted as success stories.

Uh primary constraints remain to be

funding, obviously. Uh insufficient

shelter and housing, coordination

challenges between partners um you know,

still have some kinks to work out, and

limited staffing and volunteers.

Uh it did seem like we came to a

consensus among some members of that

group that because we have organizations

like the Natrona County Safety and

Justice group, uh those are mostly

frontline service workers that are

getting together and talking about

mostly frontline service work, this

homelessness coalition um

you know, maybe should prioritize

uh more policy making um you know,

avenues getting together on a less

regular basis and really just coming up

with ideas for us as policymakers and

leaving the frontline social work to uh

those folks that are making up the

Natrona County Safety Justice group. So

uh you might see that from this

homelessness coalition group just

meeting a little bit less often, but

being a little more focused in its

approach.

Thank you Councilor Pollock for the

mention of the groundbreaking ceremony.

Would welcome you all to join us. I also

want to make sure to remind people uh

that we do have a city web page where

you can track the progress of not only

Metro, but the other three uh [program]

initiatives. You can get um essentially

real-time updates on what the status of

those projects are

at the city of Casper website, so I'd

encourage folks over there. And then

lastly, just want to recognize [a Fire EMS captain] from Casper Fire EMS. I want

to congratulate him on 25 years of

service. He's retiring and they are

having a little get together for him

Thursday, November 12th at 4:00 p.m. at

Fire Station 3. So thank you, Captain

for your service and

congratulations on a well-earned

retirement.

That's all I have. Thank you.

>> I don't have anything. Good luck to all

those that are running tonight and we'll

see you

where it ends up. All righty.

Next meeting of the City Council will be

a work session to be held at 4:30 p.m.

on Tuesday, November 10th and a regular

council meeting to be held at 6:00 p.m.

on Tuesday, November 17th.