2026-10-20 - Planning Board

00:04Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Good evening, everybody. I'd like to call to order this Tuesday, October 20th.

00:10Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): 20… oops, sorry, hang on, let me mute my Zoom.

00:14Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Oh, I am muted. Okay, are we… is the echo gone?

00:19Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): All right, welcome to this Tuesday, October 20th, 2026 Meeting of the City of Boulder Planning Board. My name is Laura Kaplan, I'm your chair this year, and we do have a slim quorum, but a quorum. And with me tonight, here in the room, is our Vice Chair, Claudia Hansen theme.

00:38Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): And online, we have board members Kurt Nordback and Max Lord.

00:43Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): We do have a brief meeting tonight, a short meeting. We have just one item on the agenda. It is a public hearing regarding our deconstruction and diversion requirements in the Boulder Revised Code. We'll get to that in just a minute, but we will start with the first item on our agenda, which is public participation.

01:02Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): So I'm going to turn it over to City of Boulder staff Amanda.

01:07Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Cusworth to run that.

01:11Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Thanks, Laura.

01:17Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Sorry, I lost my slideshow for just a second.

01:21Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): That's strange.

01:34Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): I apologize, give me just one minute.

01:39Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): I have the PowerPoint on my screen, but it's,

01:43Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Not showing up.

01:44Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): No problem, Amanda. While you're doing that, I'll just explain that the public participation part of our agenda is the opportunity for members of the public to comment on anything other than our public hearing item tonight. This is a 3-minute open comment opportunity at the beginning of our meeting.

02:03Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): There will be a separate opportunity to comment on the public hearing item around the diversion and deconstruction ordinance later in the meeting. So if that is what you want to comment about, please hold those comments until the appropriate time later in the meeting.

02:15Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Okay, Amanda, back to you. Thank you. All right.

02:18Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): Thanks for joining us. The City has engaged with community members to co-create a vision for productive, meaningful, and inclusive civic conversations.

02:26Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): This vision supports physical and emotional safety for community members, staff, and board and commission members, as well as democracy for people of all ages, identities, lived experiences, and political perspectives.

02:41Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): For more information about this vision and the community engagement processes, you can visit our website.

02:48Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): The following are examples of rules of decorum found in the Boulder Revised Code and other guidelines that support this vision. These will be upheld during this meeting.

02:58Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): All remarks and testimony shall be limited to matters related to city business. No participant shall make threats or use other forms of intimidation against any person.

03:08Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): Obscenity, racial epithets, and other speech and behavior that disrupts or otherwise impedes the ability to conduct the meeting are prohibited.

03:18Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): And participants are asked and required to identify themselves using the name they are commonly known by, and individuals must display their whole name before being allowed to speak online.

03:31Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): We're in the Zoom webinar format, so, if you'd like to speak this evening, you may hover your mouse over the raise hand icon at the bottom.

03:40Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): I don't see anyone on the phone.

03:43Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): So we'll skip that part. This can also be found under the reactions button as well. You can click that raise hand button.

03:53Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): And with that, we'll go ahead and open it up for public participation.

04:00Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): Stop.

04:06Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): But we don't have anyone in the room, and we don't have anyone online for public participation, so…

04:12Speaker 2 (Board & Commissions): I think we're okay.

04:15Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Okay. Thank you, Amanda. So that, concludes item number 2 on our agenda, public participation. That is now closed. We move on to item number 3, approval of minutes. We have no minutes tonight.

04:28Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): We also have no call-up items, which is item number 4, which brings us to our fifth agenda item, public hearings. We have 1, item 5A. I'm going to read the title. It is a public hearing and consideration

04:41Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): of a recommendation to the City Council regarding Ordinance 8768, amending sections 10-5-2 and 10-5.

04:52Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): dot 5 dash 2,

04:55Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): concerning deconstruction and diversion requirements from BRC 1981 and setting forth related details. I'm going to turn it over to our Director of Planning and Development Services, Brad Mueller, to introduce this item. Thank you, Brad. Thank you, Chair Kaplan. So, appreciate that introduction of the item.

05:13Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): And it is not.

05:14Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): Not very often that we get to defer presentation completely to colleagues in other departments, but that's exactly what we'll be doing tonight.

05:22Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): For this item, so we have Emily Freeman and, Jamie Harkins here to make presentation, and Jonathan Cohen is also, here as Director of Climate Initiatives. It's a department that we work closely with.

05:35Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): In many instances, we are the implementers of policies that have been adopted by climate initiatives, so we share a close kinship with them and close operational relationship on a daily basis as well. So we welcome them, and thank you for being here.

05:53Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): Take it away.

06:05Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): There you go.

06:06Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): Good practice. Thank you.

06:11Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Me…

06:12Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): I just want to personally say welcome to Emily Freeman. I think this might be your first presentation to Planning Board, so you are very welcome. We're very glad to have you.

06:22Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Thank you.

06:24Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Just getting the presentation set up.

06:37Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): While we have a minute here, I also want to make a special thank you to board members Nordback and Lord for making the effort to attend this meeting remotely so that we would have a quorum tonight and be able to take care of this item. So thank you very much, Max and Kurt.

06:56Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Thank you, everyone. Good evening. I'm Emily Freeman. I'm a policy advisor with the City of Boulder's.

07:03Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Climate Initiatives Department.

07:05Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I am presenting the proposed revisions to Ordinance 8366, which is Boulder's current residential and commercial deconstruction ordinance. The draft language is for Ordinance 8768, as stated.

07:22Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I just want to say that this is a quick reminder.

07:26Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): that we are not relitigating the existing ordinance, which was a council priority a little over 6 years ago. During this time, Boulder has become really well known for deconstruction and material reuse, and we have seen what is possible.

07:43Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Yet, as happens, we also find areas for improvement.

07:50Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Tonight, we are going to be discussing ways that we are looking to tighten the ordinance language.

07:56Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Staff is seeking to add clarity in terminology, expectations, and to provide enforcement options with repeat noncompliance with city requirements.

08:12Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We care about what happens to construction and demolition.

08:18Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Or, you can say the D is for deconstruction.

08:22Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We also call that C and D, waste.

08:26Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We care about these C and D waste, not only because improper disposal harms our environment, it contributes significantly to global carbon emissions.

08:38Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And it fills up our landfills two times faster than what the city puts out curbside at our homes and businesses.

08:48Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This makes… Our waste… it makes waste…

08:52Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Out of valuable, reusable materials that can contribute to a community's resilience.

09:02Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Deconstruction also matters to Boulder because it helps protect our air quality and our public health exposures.

09:10Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): It preserves materials which people will… by keeping them in their homes, and allows them to maintain their homes.

09:19Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): It reduces the cost of building materials by up to one, by up to two-thirds.

09:26Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And it creates a hyper-local supply chain, which we've often seen disrupted in the last 6 years, and has contributed to increased transportation costs.

09:39Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Beyond all of this, it also has… deconstruction has the opportunity to create up to 6 times more jobs than traditional demolition, and it aligns with city priorities.

09:53Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I want to give a quick overview of what the current ordinance requirements are.

09:59Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): So, as the ordinance stands today, All full structure buildings.

10:04Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Including residential and commercial buildings, must be taken down, that must be taken down.

10:10Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Must divert 75% by weight and three material types from the landfill.

10:17Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): That's usually done through recycling and reuse.

10:21Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Each project, must submit a refundable deposit of $1 per square foot, with a minimum of $1,500, as well as a non-refundable administrative fee.

10:35Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This refundable deposit is meant to cover the cost of otherwise landfilling those valuable building materials.

10:45Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This ordinance Keeps the bar, this proposed ordinance keeps that bar.

10:50Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And makes the rules clearer, and puts reuse first.

10:54Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): While giving the city the tools to effect change on repeat noncompliance.

11:04Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Our current ordinance took effect on July 1st of 2020.

11:09Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We're the first city in Colorado to have adopted a deconstruction ordinance, and we are tied with Palo Alto, California at becoming the first two cities to adopt deconstruction and reuse ordinances that focus on residential and commercial buildings.

11:27Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Both with the same date of adoption.

11:29Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Which I think is an interesting side note.

11:33Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): During this time, Boulder has completed 218 projects, with submitted data.

11:39Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): For an average of 70% diversion.

11:43Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I want to call out that this is below the required 75% diversion.

11:50Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): In the next slides, I will discuss what staff sees as the primary reason for that lower, diversion percentage.

11:59Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Before I move on, I want to highlight that using the EPA's WARM model, material recovery has delivered a substantial cumulative net reduction in carbon emissions to Boulder.

12:12Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Roughly the equivalent of 1.9%.

12:16Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): A boulder's footprint.

12:19Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Additionally, another almost 29,500 metric tons of carbon has been avoided on top of those direct emissions reductions.

12:32Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): If the proposed changes are adopted.

12:35Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The City expects that we will see that 70% diversion rate increase, and we would also see a net improvement in emissions reductions.

12:48Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): So here's the crux of the problem.

12:51Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The propo- that the proposed, revisions are aimed at addressing.

12:56Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Currently, only 53% of projects are compliant.

13:01Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): With the stated requirements.

13:03Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This noncompliance is not spread evenly over the number of permits that are issued.

13:11Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Staff have identified that 5 contractors have a compliance rate between 0 and 8% for their projects.

13:20Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And an additional 2 have compliance rates of 33 to 44, or 40%.

13:27Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Those same businesses Are all awarded the most number of permits per year.

13:35Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): So, a small number of high volume.

13:39Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Non-compliant contractors are pulling down the city's numbers.

13:45Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This is meaning that we are sending more materials to landfill, and they have a greater impact.

13:51Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We have also heard from deconstruction contractors and the public alike asking us, how can we stop demolitions when the city requires deconstruction?

14:01Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The proposed revision would provide us the tools

14:05Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): That are aimed squarely at repeat noncompliance, and changing those without changing the requirements

14:13Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): That the contractors who are deconstructing are currently meeting.

14:22Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I want to quickly look at where these projects are happening. So using the City's Racial Equity Index.

14:29Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Neighborhoods are ranked 1 to 5, based on BIPOC population, median income, poverty rate, and the use of city aid programs.

14:39Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Higher scores mark areas that the city prioritizes for equitable investment.

14:46Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): To date, most of the projects that are in scope with this ordinance are located in neighborhoods ranked as a 1 or a 2.

14:55Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): So about 65% of all permits

14:58Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): issued that have to comply are properties in neighborhoods with the lowest BIPOC populations and the highest median incomes.

15:09Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We've only had 12 in neighborhoods that were ranked as a 5.

15:16Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I want to bring this to light.

15:19Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This is a demolition that occurred in 2023.

15:24Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Under the City's current requirements.

15:28Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This is a demolition of a 3,940 square foot single-family home in North Boulder.

15:35Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The pre-deconstruction plan identified four material types for diversion. Upon inspection, only 2 materials were diverted.

15:48Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): aggregates?

15:49Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And a little bit of scrap metal.

15:52Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The rest of the building was landfilled.

15:55Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The deconstruction plan was not followed.

15:58Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): As you can clearly see here, lumber.

16:02Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): which has available and viable end markets in Boulder, was landfilled.

16:07Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): There was also no salvage of materials for reuse, as identified in the plan.

16:16Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Next stop… This is a single-family home that was deconstructed

16:23Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Near 4th and Pearl, just a couple miles away. It is a 2,715 square foot single-family home.

16:33Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This shows what is possible from deconstruction as compared to the previous example of a nearly similarly sized home and type.

16:43Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): In this pre-deconstruction plan, 4 material types were identified, and all 4 were diverted.

16:50Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Lumber was used both for recycling, as you can see in the dumpster, and also salvaged for reuse.

16:59Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): In the top middle picture, you can also see other items that were salvaged for reuse, donation, and resale.

17:07Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We're here today because of the recurrence of demolitions and continued violations of city requirements, as outlined in our city data and the pictures on the previous slide.

17:20Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): If more contractors comply with the requirements and follow the deconstruction plan, the city would divert more materials for reuse and recycling, we'd have cleaner air, improved health.

17:32Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): More access to high-quality, low-cost materials, and it would improve our overall resilience of our community.

17:40Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This will bring us closer to our stated climate action goals.

17:48Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We know that we all often hear requests to make things easier and faster.

17:54Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): A City of Portland study found that deconstruction does not extend the overall timeline of a new building.

18:00Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): While deconstruction itself takes more time.

18:05Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The additional delays that it takes to deconstruct does not affect the timeline of obtaining a new building permit, or delaying of new construction once that building has been removed.

18:17Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): When looking at direct costs, traditional demolition

18:21Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Has a lower upfront cost, because deconstruction does require more time and more labor.

18:30Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): But what demolition, while demolition can cost more,

18:35Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Well, I'm gonna make the argument that demolition can cost more because of unrealized savings.

18:42Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): When we're deconstructing, you are looking at the avoided costs of otherwise, having to haul and landfill… pay those landfill disposal fees.

18:53Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Additionally, with the current IRS tax code, there's the opportunity for a significant tax refund, using IRS Form 8283.

19:05Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Only through deconstruction are these unrealized savings gained.

19:10Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And this would all be lost if it is demolished.

19:14Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Additionally, we are adding to our local supply chain and workforce development opportunities.

19:22Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Our existing requirements are strong on paper.

19:25Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Yet, we have insights now on how to better improve the policy.

19:30Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And this will give our program a better chance at long-term success, and to close the diversion and compliance gap rates.

19:39Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This is an opportunity to add corrections and close those gaps while maximizing reuse in Boulder.

19:47Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Our primary asks are around clarity, Prioritizing reuse first, and accountability.

19:57Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I'm gonna walk you through those on the next slides.

20:03Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The ordinance adds the following terms to ensure that city, contractors, and property owners are all using the same language to discuss building materials management and deconstruction.

20:18Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): When our ordinance took… first took effect, Boulder had a mature building materials recycling market.

20:26Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): In the past 6 years, we have seen the reuse markets mature as well.

20:32Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We've also seen building codes align to allow for salvaged materials, such as lumber, to be reused in new construction.

20:41Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And we have pinnacle projects, like the deconstruction of the former Boulder Community Hospital, that diverted nearly 94% of the entire building.

20:51Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Where we as a city proved that structural reuse by salvaging and reusing 584 steel I-beams

21:01Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And 89 of those went into the new construction of Fire Station 3.

21:06Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We've proven reuse over multiple projects, and we are now proposing reuse be prioritized in this ordinance.

21:14Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Recycling of aggregates, Is business as usual.

21:20Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): For contractors, it lets them save on landfill disposal costs.

21:25Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): By shifting the focus of the three material types.

21:28Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And excluding aggregates from that count, projects will be able to prioritize salvage for sale, donation, and reuse.

21:39Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Alongside

21:41Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Utilizing the readily available recycling markets for other building materials to keep these high-value, carbon-intensive materials out of the landfill.

21:52Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Reuse is central to the work that we do to promote a circular economy.

22:02Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We understand that every building's different. Older homes may have asbestos.

22:07Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Or they may simply not have enough salvageable materials. Occasionally, we do hear from contractors wondering what to do if a project cannot meet the city's requirements.

22:20Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We are keeping the City's ability to adjust the requirements, but we're requesting to add language outlining the ability

22:28Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Reasons and timing for when a contractor can request a variance.

22:34Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This sets clear expectations and a pathway for when variances are needed.

22:41Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We believe that this will make it fairer to applicants.

22:44Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And easier for staff to, administer consistently.

22:53Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Today.

22:54Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): If a contractor submits a pre-deconstruction plan at permit review, and then disregards the plan, and landfills most of those building materials.

23:04Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The only consequence of noncompliance is to forfeit some or all of their refundable deposit in proportion to what they have diverted from the landfill.

23:16Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This is the same consequence, whether it is your first permit or your fifth.

23:22Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): That did not comply with the city's requirements.

23:25Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This also adds to our staff administrative burden when we're trying to repeat and manage noncompliance.

23:34Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The proposed language retains the individual permit penalty and adds a pathway for escalated enforcement with the contractor who repeatedly disregards the ordinance requirements

23:48Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Before pursuing any actions, regarding licensing or criminal penalties.

23:55Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): To clarify, The graduated fines are when a contractor has violations on two or more separate permits.

24:05Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Of $1,500, $3,000,

24:10Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): and $6,000 on the third cumulative and potentially subsequent, fine. This is after notice has been given and an opportunity for a quasi-judicial hearing.

24:24Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Beyond this proposed graduated fine schedule.

24:28Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The city has… the city manager can pursue suspension or revocation of the contractor license under Chapter 4-1.

24:37Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): and prosecution in municipal court, where every 2,500 square feet is a separate violation with a maximum fine of 2,500. Those last two are already in the current

24:52Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): That's not a proposed change, just wanted to be clear on that.

24:57Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I just want to also add here that most contractors do comply, and they use… and they are already using our ample reuse and recycling markets.

25:08Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The graduated schedule helps protect these contractors who are complying with the ordinance.

25:13Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): In this open market, we're contractor… against those contractors who don't.

25:19Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And they might be treating this deposit as the cost of them doing business.

25:25Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Without the proposed penalties, the intent of the ordinance

25:29Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Is weakened, and it hurts the capable reuse infrastructure we know that exists in our community.

25:36Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): This does not increase upfront deposits to property owners. It only works to add accountability for contractors with cumulative violations.

25:49Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We also hope that it will increase that diversion rate and compliance rate.

25:54Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): So here is where we're at today.

25:57Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Staff has reviewed the proposed changes with Planning and Development Services leadership, and they are aware of this and in supportive of it.

26:06Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): On October 7th, we met with the Environmental Advisory Board and took their suggestion to add language around the $6,000 fine for potential subsequent

26:17Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Cumulative violations beyond a third occurrence.

26:23Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Today, we're seeking Planning Board's approval on the motion.

26:28Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): After this, we will be going to, first reading with City Council on November 19th, and the public hearing is scheduled for December 3rd.

26:38Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The residential code will mirror the commercial changes, as outlined.

26:45Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): If we adopt this, we propose that this would take effect on July 1st of 2027.

26:52Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The current requirements would remain in place through June 30th of 2027, which gives staff the time to finalize program requirements, update the city's tracking software, and communicate those changes to the public.

27:13Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We invite you to ask any questions and seek any feedback on the proposed changes before City Council.

27:22Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Thank you so much, Emily, for that thorough and very clear explanation. I feel like all my… most of my questions were answered. But now is time for our Q&A with the board members, which will be followed by the public hearing, opportunity for public comment, and then board deliberation and recommendation.

27:40Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): So, I'm gonna look first to my online board members, Kurt and Max. Any questions for Emily?

27:49Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Or Claudia, if you're ready to go.

27:53Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): We'll start with Claudia. Do you want us to take slides down?

27:56Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Yeah, if you could go ahead and take the slides down, then folks online can see us all. Appreciate that. Thank you, Jamie and Emily.

28:04Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Claudia. Excuse me.

28:07Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): A few of these might be background, because this is my first exposure to this, ordinance, and thank you for the presentation.

28:12Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): I learned a lot from that. I want to start by asking, what size projects do the deconstruction regulations apply to? So that 218 number, is that all demolition permits that we've had since 2020 in the city, or is it some subset?

28:29Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): It is all DEM permits that are issued, so, anything that requires that DEM permit, if it is considered full structure, they've…

28:40Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): we retain DEM, but they are now renamed Full Structure Deconstruction.

28:46Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): Okay, so it's pretty comprehensive from, like, small scale all the way up to something like the old hospital? Correct. Okay, great.

28:52Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): And then, how many contractors are working jobs in the city dealing with these permits? That… the number of problematic contractors seem kind of small, I recognize that's a big impact, but, like, what is the universe of…

29:06Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): Contractors doing this kind of work.

29:09Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): We…

29:09Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): we see a range of people who might be contractors doing one-off projects, to contractors who are doing, more than one project in a year. So, when we ran the analysis.

29:22Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We looked at contractors that were, doing… had done 3 or more projects.

29:29Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): in Boulder, so we were comparing people who are kind of… have repeat, once again, those repeat projects and repeat permit polls.

29:38Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We have 7 contractors, as outlined, that are getting the majority of those permits, the DEM permits, issued to them.

29:49Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): Whereas we have another subset who are very close to meeting requirements, have met requirements on several, and we have some contractors who are meeting requirements.

30:03Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): on every single one. Okay. So in…

30:06Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I don't have a full count, but on that analysis of 3 or more, we had about 15 contractors who were on that spectrum, and then we're going to have additional contractors who are just completing.

30:23Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): some one-off projects. Okay, thank you, that's helpful. And then, I was curious, too, about the kind of average size of the project.

30:31Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): that are covered by this, so far, and I don't know, maybe that's measured in the deposit that's given to the city, right? But, like, what kind of a deposit, is the average project

30:43Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): requiring.

30:46Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I'm gonna give you anecdotal, because I don't have that data in front of me, but something that we can look up, if you'd like us to follow up with you on that. I would say, on average, a residential home is somewhere between that $1,500 to about $3,000 on a max.

31:04Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I have seen slightly lower, like, 900…

31:07Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And we have also seen, there was an 8,000 square foot home that was deconstructed.

31:14Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): that's residential. On commercial side, we are seeing somewhere between 3 to 6, commercial projects come up every year.

31:23Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The smallest commercial project that we've seen is around 4,000 square feet. That was the McDonald's that was over off of, what's it, Broadway, or…

31:37Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): behind… or in front of, like, the dark horse. And then the largest was the hospital. Okay. And then we had, the Millennium Hotel as well. Okay. So we have large…

31:49Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): huge ranges. Yeah, and so, I guess where I'm going with this is, like.

31:55Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): how… how have you arrived at these new, like, escalating penalty amounts? Is there a through line from that kind of deposit that you're saying now some contractors seem to be absorbing as a cost of doing business, right? As opposed to compliance? How do you get from there to this escalating penalty structure?

32:16Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): The escalating penalty structure is used in a number of different city ordinances, and it was that concept that we wanted to apply here.

32:27Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We wanted to give contractors who might have repeat noncompliance that opportunity to realize that, like, you need to comply with these requirements. You can't just repeatedly violate the city's requirements.

32:42Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): When we're looking at what that $1,500 was, it mirrors the initial deposit minimum of $1,500.

32:53Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We recognize that the cost… in terms of, like, an overall cost of construction, $1,500 is pretty minimal.

33:02Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We're not… trying to change behavior. We…

33:08Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): We want people to comply with the ordinance. We want that compliance across the board, so all contractors have that level playing field.

33:17Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And then we just doubled the $1,500 to $3,000 on the second.

33:22Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): And doubled again to the $6,000. Okay.

33:25Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): is… is that higher penalty level intended to somehow hurt enough to get compliance? I'm not… It…

33:34Speaker 4 (Board & Commissions): I think we… what we want to see is that people realize that there is a penalty if you decide to not follow the requirements of the city's ordinance. Okay, so…

33:46Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): I guess what I'm hearing is it sounds like it's intended to be noticeable, but not necessarily punitive?

33:53Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): I don't… Hi, Jamie Harkins, I manage the Circular Economy team. Yeah, it's a really tricky…

34:02Speaker 6 (Board & Commissions): proposition, because we don't have exact numbers on the cost differential between demolition and deconstruction and all these projects.

34:10Speaker 6 (Board & Commissions): And so, in consultation with P&DS and the City Attorney's Office, we landed on these fine amounts that, across the board, we thought would be substantial enough for contracts to notice.

34:22Speaker 6 (Board & Commissions): I will say we will have to, no matter what we do, we'll have to evaluate how compliance shifts after this, and we can revisit if we find that the fines aren't high enough.

34:31Speaker 6 (Board & Commissions): But we have heard from our colleagues over in PNDS that having a penalty, and especially a graduated one like this, does improve compliance, regardless of the fine level, honestly, is what we heard, and so…

34:45Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): It's the structure of escalation.

34:47Speaker 6 (Board & Commissions): We can certainly revisit these fine amounts in the future, depending on what we learn. Okay.

34:52Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): And I just had one more question, if I could, and I think this one might actually be for HELA and legal. So if I understand correctly, the penalties in this revised ordinance are proposed to kind of follow contractors between

35:05Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): permits and jobs, right? Do we have…

35:09Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): Anything else in the code, at least related to building, land use, etc, that follows contractors?

35:19Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): We generally have an increased penalty structure already in the code for building code violations and zoning code.

35:25Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): violations. I think it more focuses on the same approval and the same provision, although there could be the same approval where several provisions are violated.

35:36Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): I haven't looked at all of the civil penalty structures that we have in the code, to know if we've had it set up that way, but I can tell you that, in general, if there's criminal prosecution, which is also an option here, or with other code violations.

35:54Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): past violations is something that a judge would take into consideration when imposing a consequence, so it's not an unusual thing to structure penalties in that way. Okay, thank you.

36:07Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Thank you all. We're gonna go to Kurt next, and then Max.

36:14Kurt Nordback: Thanks, I was hoping Max would go first, because he's much more knowledgeable about this.

36:18Kurt Nordback: But, yeah, thanks for the presentation, and thanks to Claudia for.

36:23Max Lord: Yeah, actually, Kurt, on that note,

36:26Max Lord: I… I probably should ask Hela a question real quick, is that okay, Laura?

36:31Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Absolutely, and Max, I hear Kurt deferring, so why don't you go ahead and ask your questions, Max, and then we'll go to Kurt.

36:37Max Lord: Yeah, this one's for Hela. I really should have addressed this earlier, sorry I had,

36:42Max Lord: Kind of a wild day. But, hello, I'm a general contractor, and this… undeniably, affects me financially.

36:54Max Lord: So… We're… while I do probably have the most nuanced and in-depth opinions on this, It's…

37:03Max Lord: occurring to me that I probably need to keep them to myself.

37:17Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Let me pull up the code of conduct.

37:21Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Max, I appreciate your sensitivity on this, and I appreciate Hela's expertise.

37:25Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): We have had a similar question about a board member who had professional,

37:31Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): a professional practice in an area that there was an ordinance about, so there is precedent for thinking about whether a board member needs to recuse. So I'm going to look to Hela to answer this very nuanced question, and thank you for bringing it up. And I apologize that I did not ask if anybody had any kind of conflict of interest or desire to recuse. I apologize for not asking for…

37:51Max Lord: Yeah, when I… when I read through the packet, I kind of just read through it as I normally do, but upon hearing the presentation, no.

37:59Max Lord: It occurred to me, I was like, no, this…

38:01Max Lord: very undeniably affects my business and my peers' businesses, so it might be wise to, like I said, keep my…

38:11Max Lord: Famously in-depth and nuanced opinions to myself.

38:16Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Yeah, generally the Code of Conducts prohibits board members and also city employees

38:23Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Acting in a way that confers a benefit upon themselves, family members, or people they are in a contractual relationship with.

38:32Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): There's an exception, if the board member is similarly affected as a considerable…

38:41Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Hmm, let's see if I can find the…

38:44Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): a significant class or segment of the community. So if there's a…

38:51Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): significant segment of the community that is similarly affected, then it wouldn't be considered a benefit,

39:03Max Lord: Yeah, there's a difference between being a homeowner, say, like, you know, and you change things for homeowners.

39:08Max Lord: Being, like, a business owner that's business is directly related.

39:13Max Lord: To demolition permits, quite frankly.

39:15Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Yeah, I would say the safest course of action would be to recuse yourself, because it could be construed.

39:23Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Potentially as a conflict of interest, it would also require you to not participate in this hearing.

39:30Max Lord: Okay, well then, should I seat myself out?

39:33Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): Well, before we do that, because that means we won't have a quorum, I do have a question to, Hela. So, the code of context speaks to a financial benefit. The codes that are being consistent would… are considered

39:47Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): would act… actually create a financial… additional financial obligation to anybody who's subject to it. So does that seem potentially different when there's not…

39:58Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): A benefit that can be conferred, but rather a… Arguably a burden.

40:05Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): if there's anything of value that I might accrue to the official or employee.

40:13Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): I suppose by denying it in this case, or if he were to…

40:17Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): vote to deny it, for example. Yeah.

40:19Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): We don't really look at what the particular action is that's going to be taken. If there's a possibility for an action to be taken that would have that effect, we would recommend.

40:29Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Recusal.

40:30Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Yeah.

40:33Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): so, Max, I don't want to presuppose your recruit.

40:38Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): recusal of yourself, but if we do go that way, we won't have a quorum, and I would recommend maybe we just finish

40:45Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): Answering questions, though, since we do have the staff here, and if we need to continue it to a date certain, we could…

40:51Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): Then just have a… Short discourse on it at a vote.

40:57Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): I might be getting ahead of myself, so maybe we should let Max speak first.

41:00Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): I would think that we would continue the Q&A with the board members who are present, so we might just… if Max does recuse, we might just end the meeting. And Max, I apologize as chair for not thinking about and asking you about this potential before the meeting.

41:16Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): So,

41:17Max Lord: Yeah, I really should have thought it through a little bit better myself. But I guess, ultimately, I would defer to Hela's judgment about whether or not it's appropriate for me to even sit through Q&A, knowing that I likely should not be participating in this hearing.

41:35Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Yeah, the rules of conduct, anticipate that you would absent yourself from the room, and if you're participating remotely, I always recommend that

41:44Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): That you lock out of the meeting and don't participate, and then we already have a quorum issue at that point in time.

41:53Max Lord: Which is part of why I was like, I… maybe I should go before Kurt.

41:57Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Good call, Max.

41:59Max Lord: Yeah, I was like, oh, actually… So, I think at this point.

42:01Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): At this point, the question is whether you would like to recuse, and again, I apologize, I should have asked this question before we even started this agenda item.

42:08Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): And before, probably before we started the meeting. I should have recognized that this could be an issue, but Max, I think the decision is yours if you'd like to recuse.

42:17Max Lord: As much as I realize that it's going to wildly inconvenience everybody, and I cannot apologize enough to staff for the way that this has gone down,

42:27Max Lord: I think the…

42:30Max Lord: Combination of several people being absent in my recusal is probably going to drop us below a quorum, but I… sometimes these things coalesce in ways that we can't predict, but realistically, it would be inappropriate for me to continue in this hearing.

42:44Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): So, thank you, Max. Is that a recusal?

42:47Max Lord: Yeah, I think that there is no way that I can…

42:51Max Lord: be impartial in a matter such as this. It is… it directly financially impacts me.

42:57Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Really appreciate your honesty, transparency, and thoughtfulness about this, Max. Thank you so much for making the effort to attend, and thank you for that thoughtful recusal. I'll ask you to go ahead and sign off now.

43:07Max Lord: Okay, yep, so sorry, everybody, I'm so, so sorry. Anyway, y'all take care.

43:13Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Good night, Max. Yep.

43:17Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): And with that, we do not have a quorum, so I think that we are going to have to just go ahead and end the meeting, but before we do, or end this agenda item.

43:26Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): But before we do, I want to confirm, I think that we can ask our board members who were absent to watch the video, so that we can bring this back, and you will not have to present again, and we'll just pick up where we left off with Q&A,

43:39Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): And then, a recommendation, and any public comment, if we have people ready to comment from the public. But we cannot take any of those steps tonight, because we no longer have a quorum.

43:49Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): So with that, I think I would like to personally thank Emily and Jamie for being here for the wonderful presentation, and we will look forward to picking up with you at a future date. I'll turn it over to Brad Mueller, who has stepped up to the podium. Yes.

44:02Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): So I'd recommend to the board at this point that you have a motion to continue the item to a date certain, and we are going to need to take a look at the calendar here briefly.

44:13Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): I don't think we can pass a motion with 3 board members. Oh, that's right.

44:16Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): I can't even do that, so we're gonna have to re… We'll just reschedule it. We're gonna have to reschedule it and repost, which means it probably is several weeks out then.

44:24Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): I think November 17th was the date that Amanda said was our next possible meeting.

44:30Speaker 5 (Board & Commissions): date.

44:30Speaker 6 (Board & Commissions): We're gonna have to discuss internally. Emily is out of town that night. She's at a builder use conference related to this work, and so we'll just have to assess if Jonathan and I can field those questions or not. Hopefully we can…

44:44Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): And I think that's our only meeting in November, because we have the… unless we… we might schedule a second Tuesday.

44:50Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): We don't usually meet on second Tuesdays, but we are not having a meeting on the first Tuesday because of the election.

44:56Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): And I think we're not having a meeting on the 4th Tuesday, and I'm not sure why.

45:01Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Yeah, as I said, we'll, we'll…

45:03Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): Oh, Thanksgiving. Because there's other staffing considerations, so we'll…

45:07Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): We'll think about it, yep. But again, thank you both so much for being here, and I'm sorry we could not complete the mission tonight, but you have brought… you have launched us on a great pathway, and we will ask our board members to watch the video.

45:19Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): It was a wonderful, wonderful presentation. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.

45:24Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): This is the first time this has happened in my meeting… in my four and a half years on planning board that we have started a meeting and then lost our quorum partway through, so… but it happens. It happens.

45:35Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Okay, so if you two want to sneak out, I mean, you're welcome to stay for us, our conclusion, but…

45:40Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): We will move on on our agenda.

45:42Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): And so, I'll pull up the agenda again.

45:46Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): what we have left for tonight would just be, oh, I guess we can't do any, we don't have a quorum, so we just have to…

45:53Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Max could lock back on, but I think there's nothing else on the agenda, so it might not be worth it.

45:59Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): I think it's just matters from Planning Board, Plan Director, and City Attorney.

46:03Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): So if there are no announcements or anything…

46:08Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): I don't have any announcements. I think we can… we can talk through matters without a quorum, right?

46:14Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): Or does the meeting stop? I'm just.

46:17Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): It's not an official meeting, but… But at any rate, I don't.

46:20Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): have anything, so… Defer to my colleague.

46:25Speaker 7 (Board & Commissions): Do you have any items? I don't have any items, thanks. Thanks.

46:29Speaker 3 (Board & Commissions): Any scheduling things.

46:31Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): Other than what's rescheduling this item, yes. Okay, well, with that then, I think we will go ahead and adjourn. It is 6.47 PM, perhaps the fastest meeting in Planning Board history.

46:45Speaker 1 (Board & Commissions): And I want to say thanks again to the Climate Initiatives team. Really well done, and we look forward to picking this back up again soon. Thank you so much for being here tonight.